Tim Miller: A Season of Grifters and Crackpots

[0] Welcome to the Bull Work podcast.

[1] It's June 16, 2023.

[2] I'm Charlie Sykes because it's Friday.

[3] He's Tim Miller.

[4] Tim and Charlie, back together again.

[5] How you doing, Tim?

[6] What's up, Charlie?

[7] You're in North Carolina?

[8] I am in Asheville, North Carolina.

[9] This place is freaky beautiful, I have to say.

[10] So it isn't Friday.

[11] It's Thursday afternoon, actually, we're doing this.

[12] And so I'm just fresh.

[13] You usually catch me in the morning every once in a while.

[14] I might have had a couple drinks tonight before, you know.

[15] So you're getting A -plus Tim today.

[16] I just, I'm clear -eyed.

[17] I'm riding high.

[18] eye on the Nuggets victory, the parade.

[19] I was just watching the clips from the parade.

[20] They were partying.

[21] I've been, you know, reading up on Ron DeSantis' DOJ plan.

[22] So I've been partying, but I'm getting, you know, the high, you know.

[23] You could have gone.

[24] So you're in New Orleans.

[25] I'm in Asheville, North Carolina.

[26] So life is good.

[27] Life couldn't be better.

[28] You know, as soon as I'm done with this, I'm going out in the mountains, walking around.

[29] It's beautiful.

[30] It's lush.

[31] I have to say this.

[32] I'll send a bill to the the Asheville, North Carolina Chamber of Commerce.

[33] Asheville now has an Ideas Festival, kind of modeled on the Aspen Ideas Festival.

[34] And they're doing a really nice job.

[35] It's only a year or two that they're doing, but a very, very, very cool event.

[36] So you and I were just chatting before we got started here.

[37] It's only been a week since Donald Trump's indictment.

[38] And the last time you and I spoke, we didn't even know the details in the indictment.

[39] Now, I mean, everybody else was chewed over it.

[40] But I have to say that that was quite an experience.

[41] I mean, for people like, oh, come on, this is ancient history.

[42] people it's been one week so can we talk about that just for a few minutes that don't talk about his perp walk is arraignment right multiple indictment we're kind of finding out who the hell jack smith is and damn he's been tough damn he's been tough yeah he moves his family to the netherlands it's like they're at the hagg and like he i don't know he looks like he could be an mma fighter i don't know he's got alpha energy and don't trump one thing so we We hadn't seen the indictment when we were talking with Bill last week.

[43] The text of it, the full text.

[44] And we hadn't seen the images of Trump.

[45] You see the two sketches?

[46] Oh, yeah.

[47] It was like the Reuters sketch artists that made Donald Trump look kind of like Leo DiCaprio.

[48] And then there's the other sketch artists that made them look like Ursula.

[49] I don't know.

[50] I think the Ursula was probably a little bit more true of life there.

[51] Yeah, I want to hire that guy.

[52] That person's doing a better job.

[53] You have a small child now.

[54] So you're going to be making like Little Mermaid references?

[55] I know, it's terrible.

[56] So from now on, I'll be talking to Tim, and there'll be all these little drops for, you know, Disney Plus.

[57] It's terrible.

[58] I'm feeling like such a dad.

[59] I was making, I mean, on Twitter today, I made a so I married an ax murderer reference, which is a great comedy.

[60] I don't know if you've ever seen it, Mike Myers.

[61] But it was like from 1995 or something.

[62] And I'm like, I'm getting old.

[63] I'm like that guy.

[64] You know, I'm like that guy making mash reference.

[65] I'm starting to sound like Charlie.

[66] It's starting to sound like Charlie.

[67] It's happening.

[68] So anyway.

[69] So you probably have your favorite songs from Frozen.

[70] Yeah, I do.

[71] You know what?

[72] I mean, I stick with the classics, but I'm on frozen.

[73] I don't have any deep cuts.

[74] But, you know, the Trump thing, the most interesting response, I think.

[75] And you had your legal expert pod yesterday.

[76] So I'll avoid, you know, stepping on that.

[77] But it's not just the men witnesses of the world, right?

[78] It is not just like the never Trump folks.

[79] And you cover this in the newsletter.

[80] It's Luddig, it's bar.

[81] It's people that are kind of non -political that have, you know, deep expertise in prosecutorial matter.

[82] of this nature, to a person, the strength of the indictment and just how airtight it was, you know, in addition to Jack Smith did have a couple of rhetorical flourishes that maybe a little bit of showmanship.

[83] But the factual points.

[84] Good stuff.

[85] Yeah, that's good stuff.

[86] The factual points, though, are like so irrefutable that not even Donald Trump is refuting them, right?

[87] I mean, I did.

[88] Now, my party this week for the teens, I tried to do a, you know, just kind of, Here are the things that Trump and his people are saying to push back on it.

[89] And all of their arguments are kind of like, squirrel, look over there.

[90] Or I feel like I should have been able to do this.

[91] Or I technically could have done it.

[92] Had I done it at a different time?

[93] None of his defenses are I didn't do this.

[94] Or Hillary.

[95] Hillary.

[96] Right.

[97] And so that is not somebody that is.

[98] I gave the whole story, if people want to suffer through it on the next level, about the one time I've been jailed for minor in possession of alcohol.

[99] But let me tell you, that's the extent of my expertise of being on the defendant's side.

[100] And I was drinking the alcohol.

[101] And it does limit your types of defenses when you did the things that you're doing and you can't even put forth a technical argument that what Jack Smith is saying is wrong.

[102] And so I think that just on the facts of the matter, he's in deep doo -do.

[103] Even the New York Post had that head today.

[104] Well, this is what's interesting about it is, first of all, I mean, Jack Smith did a great job of the speaking indictment.

[105] This was one of my big questions.

[106] You know, would he lay out the evidence?

[107] Would he tell the story in a way that wasn't like what Alvin Brack?

[108] did in New York.

[109] And by the way, I'm not trying to, you know, beat up an album, Bragg, but there's two ways of doing these indictments.

[110] You just list the charges and everything.

[111] Sure.

[112] Or you tell the story, and what a story.

[113] Because you think back on Friday, we knew the indictment was coming down.

[114] And then we had that CNN story that broke this incredible thing, that there was a tape of Donald Trump sitting in Bedminster, rattling papers basically going, hey, here's, I'm doing the crime.

[115] Here's the crime.

[116] You know, I could show you this battle plan, this.

[117] plan to invade a foreign country, but it would be wrong because it's confidential.

[118] And when I was president, I could have declassified it.

[119] But now that I'm not president, I mean, it's like, are you kidding me?

[120] You have a tape where he's discussing the fact that he broke the law and revealing that he broke the law with a document about war plans.

[121] It's like, come on, come on, really.

[122] Is this real life?

[123] And it turns out that's actually in the indictment.

[124] It's there.

[125] And we're only seven days out from that.

[126] To your point about, Nobody is denying that he did these things.

[127] And what I'm seeing is that there was a little bit of, you know, people reading through the indictment.

[128] And even among some of the Republicans who were inclined to immediately come to his defense.

[129] As soon as they saw the details, there was a little bit like a little bit of cringe.

[130] You watch people like the Lindsey Graham's of the world, the Marco Rubio's, a little bit of flop sweat going on there.

[131] You can kind of tell like, oh, man, shit, we got to do this again.

[132] And you are having this little incremental move.

[133] You even have guys like Andy McCarthy, you know, a National Review, been kind of, you know, Amaga, shill, let's be honest about it.

[134] But, you know, he's got some legal cred.

[135] Essentially saying, you know, this is pretty bad.

[136] And Trump really has no defense.

[137] Well, Angry Baseball Head did that as well.

[138] Yeah, Ken Buck, Colorado, a congressman from Colorado, it's far right, congressman.

[139] It gets less pressed than Bobert, but, you know, he's from the plains.

[140] Bobert's from the western slope part of the state.

[141] So it's a rural part of Colorado.

[142] and even he, you know, came out.

[143] So again, and this goes kind of part of into the discussion we're having last week about like, did these one -off people matter so much if the preponderance of, you know, if you have Fox having the banner up there that's like, want to be dictator, tries to jail Trump, right?

[144] You know, if the big megaphone folks aren't jumping on board, do they matter?

[145] I don't know.

[146] But it is a step in the right direction.

[147] It's notable that it wasn't just the usual suspects.

[148] It wasn't just Mitt, you know, it was some of these other more conservative folks that spoke out.

[149] And the Marco one is interesting to me. He must have been broken.

[150] He's a broken man. I mean, his tweet about how actually Chris Christie didn't end my campaign was like one of the saddest tweets ever.

[151] I mean, it's like, if Jeb called me and he's like, I'm thinking about tweeting that when I did please clap, it was a joke.

[152] And people should stop getting on my back about that.

[153] I would be like, that is true.

[154] But like, you know, just let it go.

[155] Okay, just let it go.

[156] All right.

[157] It wasn't even true in Marcus' case.

[158] The Christie did take it out.

[159] But the interesting thing about Marco's defense, which.

[160] I think cuts both ways is the wishful, the rest, the P -Tape version of this indictment, like the thing that we wanted, you know, that might have actually been the, you know, damn breaker is like he had this stuff and, oh, by the way, he's showing it to MBS.

[161] Yeah, I mean, like, Jack Smith had basically everything you could have possibly dreamed in this indictment except for that.

[162] And that is what Marco hangs his hat on, right?

[163] It's like, at least he's not a spot.

[164] At least he didn't.

[165] Yeah, at least he's not actively selling the secrets to hostile foreign powers.

[166] Okay.

[167] He's not F old Rosenberg.

[168] Okay.

[169] And that's, like, that's what they're reduced to.

[170] Marco deciding that not only is he sad and broken, but that he wants to expose himself as sad and broken, that was an interesting point.

[171] So, you know, I know we keep coming back to this again and again and again, and I apologize in advance with this, but you do wonder whether or not, if the Republican candidates took the collective action of saying, like, you know what, this is really, really bad, and we're all going to say it all at once, would it make a difference?

[172] I understand, you know, that the base wants to hear what it wants to hear, but, you know, would it make a difference?

[173] I mean, honestly, I mean, if everybody, you know, essentially said, yeah, this is really bad, this is, there's no defense for this.

[174] I think the answer that is, yes, it would make a difference.

[175] Would it make a difference now is kind of one of those known unknowns, rummy that we'd love to see it, but we're never going to.

[176] Yeah, yeah.

[177] Because there's something to be said for, I wrote about this earlier this week, so we don't need to rehash all people can read it if they want, but I wrote about how the Koch network, how their ad, you know, was really terrible going after Trump.

[178] But the point I'm trying to make is that the thing that we learned in RVAT research.

[179] Republican voters against Trump.

[180] Voters against Trump.

[181] Yeah, thank you for the 2020 campaign, which I was a part of, and with Sarah and others.

[182] And then going back to 2016 when I was with an anti -Trump pack, the main lesson that you learned from survey research is that Republican voters do not want to be told what to do by D .C. elites that they do not like, right?

[183] And that they feel like don't represent them.

[184] And so in a weird way, right, like if Paul Ryan or whoever, not to pick on Paul, but anyone in that vein came out and spoke out against Trump, it like helped him in a weird way, more than it hurt him, right?

[185] You know, because it was like, screw that guy, I'm going to defend my man. And so, you know, if there was like this coordinated effort of McCarthy and Mitch and all the people that kind of smell like old guard Republicans all came out, you do wonder at this point if that would only make things worse, right?

[186] Like, caused the backlash to be greater.

[187] Now, I think that there is evidence to believe that there were points in which that would have mattered, for sure.

[188] Like, I think at January 6th, like if you just looked at his numbers, right?

[189] Like, he was teetering, right?

[190] He was teetering at a couple different points where they didn't take the chance to do that.

[191] At this point, man, you know, it's just you'd start to dig deeper and deeper and deeper, right?

[192] And it's hard to see if you can dig out.

[193] So another one of the interesting tells about all of this is how fast candidates have moved to talking about pardoning Donald Trump.

[194] I mean, it's just like, let's just like move past the trial, the evidence, and the conviction of Donald Trump.

[195] And so it sort of started a little bit small, like, you know, like Vivek Ramoswamy saying, you know, I will pardon him.

[196] I'm going to run on this.

[197] I have a pledge to everybody's going to pardon him.

[198] And then you had, you know, Nikki, who will, of course, check every single box at the Waffle House on all this.

[199] And I see that your good friend, Rich Lowry, from National Review, has a piece up now saying, definitely it would be good for the country if we pardoned.

[200] I'm Donald Trump.

[201] This seems to me to also be a tell, that they're like moving past the whole thing, and it's like, can we talk about this now?

[202] So what do you make of this?

[203] Now, big pushback from, you know, some folks, I think Ace Hutchins pushback said no. Chris Christie said he'd have to actually admit guilt, so I'm in the clear on that.

[204] Pence waffled a little, I thought.

[205] Yeah, Pence didn't go for it.

[206] So what do you make of the, can we just move on and pardon him thing?

[207] I want to put Nikki Haley and Rich in one box, and there are other people like this that think that this is a get out of jail free card in a literal sense with Trump.

[208] But for them, they're a good out of jail free card with the base, right?

[209] That they can be like, we're not coming after your guy.

[210] We like it.

[211] You know, I think that he's being targeted.

[212] But, you know, maybe we can all move on and sing kumbaya.

[213] And I think they're just still maintaining this hope that the Trump, cult crowd will come around.

[214] He's guilty, but we're just not going to do anything.

[215] Yeah, yeah, and we still get it.

[216] We're on your team.

[217] We're not going to punish it.

[218] It's all good.

[219] And let's all unite behind our guy, Nikki, or Ron, or whoever it is.

[220] That's the strategy they're doing.

[221] I think that's an utterly failed strategy, but I think that's what's in their head.

[222] The Vivek thing is funnier.

[223] Vivek didn't just start by saying he's going to pardon him.

[224] Vivek went down to the courthouse, stood outside there, and was like, I am going to sue Joe Biden on behalf of my dominant Donald Trump.

[225] And I'm going to learn to see if Joe Biden was the one who plotted this attack.

[226] And what Vivek is doing is more interesting because he's not part of the old guard that wants a kumbaya moment.

[227] He is like trying to just fly up Donald Trump's flank and just be like, hey, I am reading that this is what the base wants.

[228] And I'm either going to get a win -win for me. Either Donald's going to be so proud of me and give me a pat on the head for going down there and I'm going to get to be the new Steve Mnuchin in the next administration when he wins, or if he actually goes to jail, like I'll have been the guy who was the most vociferous in standing my aside and maybe the cultist will come to me. Now, I think that's probably a silly calculation as well, but I think it shows that that at least feels, in a weird way, like at least feels like there's a chance, like that he's in touch with what the voters want, where the Nikki Haley thing just feels kind of like you just want to say, bless your heart, Nikki.

[229] Like, it's just not happening for you.

[230] I can see it happen.

[231] And now it's a Trump Vivek, 2024.

[232] Oh, maybe.

[233] You know what we have to look forward to, Tim?

[234] What's that?

[235] We have weeks and weeks and weeks of being able to speculate groundlessly on who Donald Trump's going to name is his running mate, which I think is a really interesting question.

[236] But let's not go ahead.

[237] Let's just save something to look forward to.

[238] Okay, you know a lot about the Florida politics.

[239] What do you make of this Miami mayor who's jumped in the race?

[240] Was it Scores?

[241] He's a Republican.

[242] He's been kind of Trumpy.

[243] Yeah, it's a weird one.

[244] What the hell?

[245] Yeah, he's a Republican -ish.

[246] I mean, he's a Republican now.

[247] So are you ready for this little fact toy, Charlie?

[248] In the 2018 governor's race between Andrew Gillum and Ron DeSantis, who do you think Francisco Suarez voted for, Mayor in Miami, Mayor Suarez, Andrew Gillum?

[249] But that was so long ago.

[250] Yeah, he's a 2018 Andrew Gillum voter who then runs for mayor as a Republican and kind of goes at DeSantis over COVID a little bit, you know, wanting to have a few, you know, be more on the restrictive side on COVID, but gets way out over his skis on crypto, sees what happens in the midterms where Miami has this big move to the right.

[251] Miami becomes kind of this avatar for the tech bro.

[252] Oh, I'm leaving California and I'm going to Miami and I can be in a free state.

[253] And, you know, right?

[254] So it becomes this avatar is like the anti -San Francisco for a certain cadre of people.

[255] And he's just riding this now, wave, this mayor that has very, very little responsibility, actually, because in the weird way, Florida set up, Miami -Dade County actually has much more power than, so the county executive of Miami -Dade County is more power than the mayor of Miami, the city.

[256] But he's riding this wave of, you know, all these Peter Teal moved to Miami, all these guys kind of like him.

[257] He's also under investigation for some bribery stuff.

[258] So he gets into this way.

[259] Yeah.

[260] And I think that he basically is just like this right place, right time guy who's like, I'm tripling down on this, right?

[261] Like these Mago types, love me, the contrarian Joe Rogan, Peter Thiel World loves me. I'm going to throw my hat in.

[262] You know, Trump wins.

[263] I'm not going to attack Trump.

[264] I'm just going to, it's kind of a different view of the Tim Scott.

[265] I'll be HUD secretary or something.

[266] Yeah.

[267] And maybe I can sell some books.

[268] You know, I get my name out there more.

[269] I can get on the speaking circuit.

[270] Or maybe I can just get a pardon.

[271] Right.

[272] So it's like it is a just a total.

[273] It's a combination of two really common inflection points of the Trump era.

[274] There is one, the the realignment of our politics you know i wrote about the red dog democrats he's moderate republicans who have moved over you know and then the republicans picked up you know the working class white people in the diners yeah but the other group that they've picked up is these tech bros like the online contrarian tech bros who don't like pc culture and so he's just riding that wave so he's riding the realignment wave just like elon musk at the same time he seems like he's a total grifter who's a complete phony which is also this has been the salad days for total grifters.

[275] I mean, has there ever been a party where you can just like immediately move to the top of the ranks?

[276] I mean, if you're some mayor and, you know, if you're a random backbencher in the Democratic party, you know, there's a lot of people ahead of you in line, right?

[277] As evidenced by the gerontocracy running the party in the Congress, you know, Katie Porter and any of the party out of the ship, this isn't the case in the Republican Party, you know.

[278] You can just ride that grift wave, you know, right to, well, you ought to actually be able to win.

[279] But, you know, look at Blake Masters and like these people never would have been Senate nominees ever.

[280] I wasn't going to bring it up today, but this is my prediction for Trump's running made.

[281] It's going to have to be Elizabeth Holm.

[282] It's a great fit.

[283] Okay, so how much of this is, you know, the Miami mayor getting in, is an FU to Ron DeSantis?

[284] Is kind of a wet sloppy kiss to Trump?

[285] Like, I'm going to split the Florida vote for you.

[286] I really just can't understand the answer to that quite.

[287] I think that something is at play here, and I know maybe we're going to discuss a little bit about RFK Jr. too.

[288] And there's a little, I think that there might be a little bit of troublemaking at play here.

[289] I mean, you're in South Florida, Roger Stones down there, you know, there's always little things in the midst.

[290] So I think that's very possible.

[291] I've not seen any direct evidence of that.

[292] To me, this just looks on its face.

[293] Like I said, like this is a grifter who loves the limelight, who was like a moderate, who thought that the path was going to be as a moderate Republican Carlos Carbello type.

[294] And then all of a sudden, like the ground shifts under his feet.

[295] And he's like, how, yeah, I'll put on the MAGA hat.

[296] I'll hang out with Elon Musk.

[297] I'll ride, you know, this wave.

[298] And I think that really explains it more than trouble making that said.

[299] I'm definitely open to, you know, waking up in two weeks to a Miami Herald article about how Roger Stone has been having, you know, secret swingers meetings with the mayor where he's been discussing this.

[300] You know, I'm sorry.

[301] Nothing wrong with that.

[302] Not to each their own.

[303] Hey, speaking of Florida grifting, one of my favorite stories of the week has to be the the post -arrayment appearance by Donald Trump when he goes to this restaurant and says, oh, the food's on me, I'm picking up the tab, then he leaves and doesn't pay for anything.

[304] It's just such a quintessential Trump moment.

[305] It is just, it's all boiled down there.

[306] Many Hassan had a pretty good tweet about it.

[307] He said, do we laugh about stuff like this?

[308] But this isn't just another indication that we kind of grade Donald Trump on the curve because is there any other candidate that would be able to pull that shit off?

[309] It would follow them forever.

[310] It would be his bridge gate.

[311] It would be forever.

[312] Yeah.

[313] And it goes to like this, core thing that nobody was ever able to get him on.

[314] I went back and I rewatched a 2016 interview I was doing when I was in the anti -Trump pack back then the other day.

[315] Someone sent it to me. I hadn't seen it a while.

[316] And one of the arguments I was making was, I was like, this guy has a history of acting like he's a man of the people, but screwing over regular people, you know?

[317] And like that was his whole thing.

[318] And I thought we really had something there that that might resonate.

[319] It just is, for whatever reason, it just has been a total dud, you know.

[320] And he can do this.

[321] And he can do this.

[322] shit and get away with it the way other people can't.

[323] Yeah, screwing little guys who do the work and then you don't pay them.

[324] Or how about that little old lady who was kicked out of her house so they could build a casino in Atlantic City and everything?

[325] I thought that was, you know, his position on uneminent domain.

[326] Yeah, nobody cares.

[327] Hey folks, this is Charlie Sykes, host of the Bullwork podcast.

[328] We created the Bullwark to provide a platform for pro -democracy voices on the center right and the center left for people who are tired of tribalism and who value you truth and vigorous yet civil debate about politics and a lot more.

[329] And every day, we remind you folks, you are not the crazy ones.

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[334] We're going to get through this together.

[335] I promise.

[336] Let's talk about RFK Jr. because speaking of this being the perfect season for the grifter of the nut job, the extremist, I mean, he is, did you tweet out this poll showing that he has much higher approval ratings among Republicans than with Democrats?

[337] He's way under water with Democrats.

[338] Republicans love him.

[339] Fox News loves him.

[340] All of the right conspiracy theorists love him.

[341] what the hell yeah here's the poll i just wanted to pull it up i'm quinipiac national poll favorability rating so 40 % of republicans have a favorable opinion of rfk junior 18 % unfave among democrats 25 % favorable 39 % unfave you know almost a complete inversion there and he's running the democratic primary right again this goes back to those two same issues i've talked about before one is the grifting and in this case i think it may be worse than grifting we you know we have foul play I'll get to that.

[342] And the other is just this realignment, right?

[343] Because RFK really hasn't changed his views on, like, he does believe climate change is a problem, right?

[344] And I'm sure he is, supporters of union.

[345] I haven't seen him talk about unions as much anymore lately, but, you know, working class economic issues.

[346] But on the core questions that most voters are determining their party idea on right now, you know, democracy issues, you know, recently the COVID and the, you know, public health issues, conspiracy around that.

[347] the, you know, Ukraine war, right?

[348] Like, all of, like, the main hot issues right now.

[349] He has sided with the Kooky Maga Right and the other end of the horseshoe, the very small number of, you know, Glenn Greenwald leftists, like a cross -support on every single one of those things.

[350] And he has become a hero among the Steve Bannon podcast of the world.

[351] Because it's like, we have a Kennedy who will come on this podcast and say that the DOJ is targeting Trump and say that the vaccines are, don't work.

[352] And we'll say that, you know, the U .S. Ukraine was asking for it, right?

[353] Like, he'll say all of the stuff that the MAGA guys want on these hot button issues right now.

[354] And because he's a Kennedy, you know, I mean, the MAGA folks revere the Kennedys, right?

[355] And the whole thing about JFK Jr. coming back, you know, really being alive is one of the main Q &ON conspiracies, right?

[356] So there's this synergy between that kind of Greenwald RFK left and the MAGA right in a way that those are the big animating questions.

[357] for people in politics right now.

[358] So the question I've always had is who are the people that like him in the Democratic like, why is he getting 18, 19, 20 percent at Democratic primary?

[359] I'm just dying to see a breakdown of his support because I think it's two groups.

[360] I think it's one that just are upset about Joe Biden's age and that's it.

[361] And they're just, they put down anybody's name because they're like, he's too old, I want somebody else.

[362] And then I said two groups, so I meant three.

[363] Two, there's just some vestigial Kennedy types, you know, and then three, I think there is a small number of like anti -vax, weirdo Democrats.

[364] still, because anti -vax people used to be the Berkeley left, right?

[365] So I, you know, so I think that those three combined kind of are getting him up into the teens.

[366] And Bannon has sniffed this out.

[367] He sniffed out that they could use his celebrity.

[368] He could use the fact that he has that small foothold within a certain element of the Democratic base.

[369] And they, as best as I can tell, encouraged him to run, are contributing funding, are, you know, the main engine behind his getting to the race.

[370] Like, RFK, he even said in interviews, I can't believe.

[371] I don't even know what's happening.

[372] I don't think he can even believe this maelstrom that he got caught up in, but you see these pictures of him with Stone and Bannon and Alex Jones.

[373] And this is an intentional rat fuck that is taking advantage of, you know, that small fissure on kind of the farthest left side of the Democratic Party.

[374] So since we're talking about sort of toxic grifts and rat fucking hair, the no labels folks.

[375] I'm wondering where you're going with that.

[376] I'm going toward no labels.

[377] Look, I understand the 30 ,000 -foot appeal of, hey, can we just have a third way?

[378] Can we just have something that is just not the same?

[379] I mean, I get that.

[380] You get that.

[381] You know, I understand why people tell pollsters, you know, would you vote for a third party and everything?

[382] And yet, these folks, I mean, I'm having a hard time decoding what's going on there.

[383] I saw a tweet from Adam Kinzinger, who said, by the way, remember these no labels folks during the January 6th, the select committee?

[384] they lashed out at us.

[385] They, you know, attacked us for, you know, partisan subpoenas.

[386] And now they're, I mean, last week they were out with this sort of bizarre map, the claims that they can win, which no one takes seriously.

[387] Was it this week that they suggested that, you know, if Rhonda Sanders is on the ballot, we might stand down.

[388] Which is exactly backwards.

[389] They might not offer anybody.

[390] Like, but apparently they're staffing up.

[391] What's going on here?

[392] Rick Wilson has a good threat about this.

[393] I mean, increasingly, I think we've talked about this once before.

[394] Maybe it was on the other podcast, but I consider, are too much people's better angels, Charlie.

[395] I know that you say that about me all the time.

[396] I'm just, you know, I'm a truster.

[397] But I assume that they're idiots, not malign.

[398] It really, it was my first.

[399] You just assumed naivete and, yeah, not matters.

[400] I thought it was an Occam's Razor thing.

[401] It was rich, out of touch, New York people who are in a tiny bubble of other rich people that don't like Joe Biden.

[402] And like, you know, they thought that there's something here and there isn't.

[403] I've talked to a couple of those naive people.

[404] I've had a couple of rich folks that, you know, people would put them in touch with him.

[405] They're like, I'm thinking about running third party and then I kind of run through what that would look like and you know then they're like oh I shouldn't do this actually because that's not smart in this case right so that's what I thought the evidence increasingly the DeSantis thing you know makes me start to believe that there's malice here because any objective view of a third party I know that this goes against conventional wisdom but any objective view I don't think a third party person would have a chance at a presidential race regardless unless it's like the perfect candidate the rock somebody doesn't exist but but you could draw a map that at least has me listening with DeSantis in, because DeSantis changes the game.

[406] It's an ideological fight.

[407] You know, you try to get people in the ideological middle.

[408] You know, with Trump, it's not that.

[409] Like, Trump is seen as such a threat.

[410] And Biden, by the MAGA voters, is seen as an illegitimate dementia -ridden threat.

[411] There is no path to getting a lot of independent voters in that primary.

[412] And the independent number in 2020 was tiny.

[413] Despite the fact that people were like, I hate both my choices.

[414] they're like, the number of people that actually voted independent was tiny.

[415] It wasn't because there wasn't a good campaign run.

[416] It was because the people that hate Trump don't want to risk him winning.

[417] And the people that think Biden is a dementia riddled grifter don't want to risk him winning.

[418] And so DeSantis would actually kind of change the thing to at least make this seem genuine.

[419] It would still be stupid, to be honest, Charlie, but at least it would seem like it's a genuine thing if they're going to run it both ways.

[420] But for them to say that makes me think that, and Rick, I think, smartly pointed out that there's some overlap between DeSanta's donors and no label.

[421] donors, that this is an actual effort to help Trump if he, you know, and Biden end up getting there because there is just no, the only type of voter that would be open to going third party in a Trump Biden electorate are our people, really, Charlie, this is why we can speak to this with expertise.

[422] I have these people in my life.

[423] I don't want to name anybody in this podcast, but I can think about family and friends that are like lifelong Republicans, lifelong conservatives, sucked it up for Joe Biden in 2020 because they hated Trump and thought he was so dangerous.

[424] and if they were in a third party and they didn't have somebody like me in their life to explain to them how stupid this was, they might get sucked into, they would hold their nose for Biden, but they might get sucked into the third party thing.

[425] That is the type of voter.

[426] That's the only type of voter they would attract, and that's 3 % of the electorate, and it could be a maker breaks percent of the electorate.

[427] It is just weird.

[428] So I'm seeing that they're posting job openings for communications director and deputy chief of staff.

[429] You're probably not going to apply.

[430] Is that what you're telling me?

[431] I'm not.

[432] Okay.

[433] I'm not.

[434] Okay, so do you have your phone with you?

[435] I do, yeah.

[436] Okay.

[437] I've been focused on the podcast, so I haven't been scrolling Twitter, but I can pull it up.

[438] I'm merging you to look at your phone because I just text to do something.

[439] This is happening.

[440] All right, you're texting real time.

[441] Sorry, I put it on the airplane mode.

[442] It turns out, this is great radio.

[443] Charlie, this is why you're an old pro.

[444] What was it?

[445] WMTJ, WTMJ.

[446] Okay.

[447] Is that, oh, wait, is this live?

[448] No, no, no, no. I just, this is.

[449] I see this photo.

[450] Okay, you sent me a photo of Ken Kut.

[451] Trinelli.

[452] Okay, that was my question.

[453] I'm flying here to Asheville yesterday and I'm in the, have a layover in Atlanta.

[454] And I'm sitting there and I'm listening to music, listening to tunes.

[455] And then I hear this guy behind me arguing with somebody about Ronda Santis and why he's supporting Ronda Santos.

[456] And so I do what any reasonable person who respects the privacy of others would do, right?

[457] I turned off the music, cut off the headphones and listened to this guy behind me. And I hadn't turned around yet because he was very clear that he knew a lot of stuff and he was talking about, you know, he was talking about the Mar -a -Lago stuff and using the word crime scene and blah, blah, blah, blah.

[458] And then they were talking about Chris Christie, and they were talking about other stuff.

[459] And I'm thinking, okay, this guy is he's a donor or he's bundler or something because he's, you know, interesting.

[460] So I turn around and I look at him and I go, shit, that's Ken Cuccinelli.

[461] You know, blabbing in the middle of the airport.

[462] Not a lot of great opsec for the, the Ronda Santa's Superback.

[463] Isn't he like the chairman or the deputy chairman or he has some sort of ceremonial role for the Superpack?

[464] So I, of course, did not want to be rude and, you know, go up and introduce myself or anything.

[465] So I just surreptitially took the picture.

[466] But I wasn't totally sure it was Ken Cuccinelli, which is why I just texted you this picture and, you know, to say like, Tim, that's the guy, right?

[467] Unfortunately, I can confirm it because you, as a reader of my book, can remember that I had some quality personal time with Ken Cucinelli where he was making fun of gay people.

[468] and was unaware that I was a homosexual.

[469] So it was a really, really pleasant afternoon I got to spend with Ken Kuggenelli.

[470] I mean, the last thing that Ken Kincolini thought was that he's sitting in this airport, having this voluble conversation about raising money for Ronda Sandus and about how basically effed up Trump was with the Mar -a -Lago, the criminal trial.

[471] And he's sitting 10 feet away from me. I don't think he'll be accidentally sitting 10 feet away from someone listening to this podcast, but in case he is, can we talk about how Ken Kincolago?

[472] Cochinelli kind of, I'm taking the host chair for a second, he, uh, Cooch, like, is the embodiment of what could be a really big problem for Ron DeSantis, that somebody like Cooch is attracted to his campaign.

[473] And that is, have you seen the New Hampshire poll that was out today?

[474] No, no, no, no, please tell, do tell.

[475] There's a New Hampshire poll that's out today.

[476] And I do want to caveat that it's from American greatness.

[477] So, you know, maybe not the best polling outfit.

[478] Oh, Tim.

[479] But I think this is, but it's still important.

[480] They spoke to 500 voters, so it's not nothing.

[481] And here's the numbers.

[482] And here's why I think it's important because it literally matches the 2016 number, basically.

[483] Trump 44, DeSantis, 12.

[484] Christy 7, your boy, plus 6 from the last poll.

[485] Scott 7 plus 6 from the last poll.

[486] Haley 5.

[487] The problem that DeSantis has is he is staring down the barrel.

[488] He has the same Ted Cruz team from 2016.

[489] It's Jeff Rowe.

[490] It's Ken Cuccinelli.

[491] It's these far -right true -con ideologues.

[492] Keith thinkers.

[493] And that could be a good match for Iowa, Bob Vanderbentz, but you go into New Hampshire where the voters are not evangelicals there.

[494] It's the second state, right?

[495] So you have these kind of working class maga types, right?

[496] And you have the Boston suburb types that Chris Christie and Tim Scott are doing with and Portsmouth, right?

[497] And then, you know, you have some traditional conservatives as well.

[498] And those are basically the three categories to make up the primary.

[499] And the DeSantis group is not that big.

[500] If DeSantis can't get, if he gets down the ideological drain with these weirdos like Ken Cucinelli, how do you come back?

[501] He's tearing right down the barrel of the Ted Cruz redux.

[502] What happened?

[503] Ted Cruz wins Iowa, goes to New Hampshire and gets slaughtered.

[504] Gets absolutely slaughtered.

[505] Let me pull this up.

[506] He finishes below.

[507] Oh, I remember.

[508] I have the exact number up, though.

[509] But it's important to know.

[510] He gets 12.

[511] So just what DeSantis is pulling at, below Kasek, you can't recover from that.

[512] Ken Cuccinelli is the avatar of this for me, that they're doing the same thing all over again.

[513] The big question that we ought to ponder is, is Ron DeSantis Scott Walker or Ted Cruz?

[514] He's looking like Ted Cruz.

[515] Yeah.

[516] He's looking like Ted Cruz.

[517] Wow.

[518] So can I tell you about my other favorite story?

[519] Please.

[520] I think I'm going to get blowback for sending you this picture?

[521] I don't know.

[522] No. I think that's great.

[523] It's not like you chased him into the bathroom.

[524] I have a word for you, Ken. Child separation.

[525] Jeez.

[526] So every time Ron Johnson comes up, you know, of course I cringe, the senior senator from Wisconsin.

[527] And he was on Newsmax, and then they're asking him about these.

[528] And this is like this other universe out there where in the right ecosystem, there are these smoking gun tapes and whistleblower out there who is going to destroy the Biden crime family because he has these 17, audio tapes of Joe Biden talking about taking bribes.

[529] And Chuck Grassley has been hyping this.

[530] You've been, you know, hyped from, you know, House Overside Committee, James Comer, and, you know, all of this stuff.

[531] And they actually put out a press release saying that the FBI had information that Biden took a bribe while he was serving as vice president.

[532] And Fox News mentioned the claim in more than 200 chunks of airtime.

[533] So it must be rock solid, 200 mentions.

[534] Well, exactly.

[535] Exactly.

[536] So Ron Johnson is on newsmax and they ask, well, what about this tape?

[537] This is not a big deal.

[538] And Johnson essentially admits, yeah, we're not actually sure that it exists.

[539] We don't even know that it exists.

[540] And the confidential source appears, again, to have disappeared or died or whatever the hell.

[541] So I just find it's just kind of amazing.

[542] And so there they are kind of just holding the bag.

[543] You know, Grassley, for example, appeared on Fox earlier this month to discuss the claim that, you know, he'd elevate this.

[544] this document hadn't been provided by the FBI, and Grassley was asked, well, what does the document say?

[545] Nearly a month after he signed this letter, saying that it describes an alleged criminal scheme involving Joe Biden.

[546] Grassley said he was not going to characterize it.

[547] And now, basically, it's like, where are the tapes?

[548] Are there neat tapes?

[549] In a Newsmax interview on Thursday, Senator, this is Philip Obama.

[550] Senator Ron Johnson was asked about the purported tapes.

[551] We don't know, Johnson replied.

[552] Senator Grassley's never said they.

[553] exist.

[554] Instead, he continued.

[555] Grassley had simply said the source said he'd heard they existed.

[556] On Tuesday, Representative Matt Gates, not a member of the Oversight Committee, discussed the issue with a former Trump advisor, Steve Bannon.

[557] I want to be very clear about something Gates says.

[558] Even what's on a 1023, this is the FBI report, even what's on that is an allegation, what needs to happen is track down the bank records and to look for these 17 audio recordings that he said he knew about months ago.

[559] But apparently, look, nobody knows where these tapes are.

[560] It's just, I, and so Fox News, apparently unchasened by the Dominion lawsuit.

[561] Very unchasent.

[562] I mean, they called Joe Biden a dictator this week.

[563] Yeah, want to be dictator.

[564] So want to be dictator.

[565] Excuse me. I would say that Representative Comer is, he's cruising to be deplorable of the year if there was such a thing, you know, if we're not grading on a curve.

[566] I enjoyed the anecdote, but I thought I was ending with a question.

[567] No. No question.

[568] More of a comment than a question.

[569] Did you see this one?

[570] It's related.

[571] It's Fox News.

[572] I feel like me and Perico need to go do a deep dive on this.

[573] Philip Hump's doing a great job, but we might need to add a little more color to it.

[574] Here it is.

[575] Exclusive, President Joe Biden was allegedly paid $5 million by an executive of the Ukrainian natural gas firm Burisma, where his son Hunter sat on the board, a confidential human source told the FBI.

[576] Big of true.

[577] And I saw that.

[578] It's Fox.

[579] You know, it wasn't Gateway Pundit, wasn't Newsmax.

[580] So I was like, I guess I'll click on that one, you know, try to see what they're talking about.

[581] That would be pretty bad if Joe Biden was paid $5 million by an executive of Burma's things.

[582] Yeah.

[583] And so I clicked on it.

[584] The exclusive comes from a single anonymous source who delivered this to the FBI.

[585] So all we know is somebody went into the FBI and told them this.

[586] And their contention is that Joe Biden, the Biden family, excuse me, control a maze of bank accounts that are so intricate that it would take ten years to unravel.

[587] And that is why the five million doesn't show up on Biden's financial filings, which are extensive.

[588] It's just like Joe Biden is a dementia -riddled criminal mastermind with like a Russian doll's nest full of different bank accounts to hide the amount of money he's getting.

[589] I guess, I don't know.

[590] mate like I didn't think that the blind computer repair man story was true so crazier things have happened I guess but the evidence here for them to put stuff forward is so circumspect and so ludicrous in certain cases and fanciful you know and yet you have the Saudi Arabia payoff like happening right out in the open you know and it's like no no report no reporting happening on that I know the whole thing is preposterous this is what the term cognitive dissonance means I believe so.

[591] You know, the craftiest manipulator in the history of finance is also this demented guy.

[592] And the people who believe it, believe it without blinking an eye, they have no problem whatsoever that he's basically sitting.

[593] Because, of course, I guess what George Soros is sitting behind and pulling the strings.

[594] See, but unfortunately, and I think we ought to have a little fess up here.

[595] Okay.

[596] You know, when you have these conversations with folks, I mean, say, they have no evidence, this is ridiculous.

[597] You know, they're making it up with why you take this seriously.

[598] they will come back to the Hunter Biden laptop.

[599] Look, I don't not give a shit about Hunter Biden, but this was a fail when that Hunter Biden laptop.

[600] It was implausible.

[601] There were questions about it, but it became this thing where everybody in the media, everybody decided that the Hunter Biden laptop was nothing, that it was fake, that it was planted by the Russians.

[602] And it turns out as weird as the story was that maybe it was true, largely true.

[603] And so people could always say, that's what you said about Hunter Biden's laptop and yeah okay this is why you need to get it right all the time if you want to maintain your credibility you can't ignore the stories otherwise it creates this sort of you know doom loop of I'm not believing anything you guys say what about this you know I guess but we're human and the story that they put forth was that a blind computer repair man had Hunter Biden's drives I don't know Rudy Giuliani got it yeah and that and that the blind computer repair guy called up Rudy I mean the whole story was very unlikely.

[604] So what's the lesson here?

[605] Weird shit is happening.

[606] Weird shit does happen.

[607] Simply because something is weird shit doesn't mean it's not true.

[608] And I agree.

[609] And that's what I said.

[610] That's why I clicked on the story.

[611] I was like, I want to see what Fox has there.

[612] Maybe I've been, maybe the wool's been pulled over my eyes about Joe Biden and he is a criminal mastermind.

[613] We'll find that out in a few years.

[614] I don't suspect so.

[615] I think that he has a bit of a grifty son who's making some money he probably doesn't deserve.

[616] But like, that's a tale as old as time when it comes to politics.

[617] I do on the laptop, just one point in case everyone has these people in their lives who come up to them and say, well, you were wrong about the laptop, the media was wrong about the laptop.

[618] That's true.

[619] The absurd story did turn out to be true.

[620] But what was on the laptop only served to embarrass and defame Hunter himself, right?

[621] And there are all these embarrassing pictures of Hunter.

[622] There are a lot of texts between Hunter and his dad, where his dad sounds like a very loving father, you know, who's concerned about his son with addiction problems.

[623] There's the one big guy email that they keep mentioning, right?

[624] And it's like, okay, you know, okay, I'm open to the possibility that Joe Biden was taking 10 % off the top of Hunter's Griff, and they were calling him the big guy in a code name.

[625] But I'm going to need one additional piece of evidence besides the one email that says, I think that there's going to be 10 for the big guy.

[626] That's all.

[627] I need one additional piece of evidence.

[628] And then maybe we were wrong about this.

[629] But that is literally the only thing on the laptop that makes Joe Biden look in the least bit bad.

[630] And a lot of the things in the laptop, you know, make him look like a dad who's struggling in a pretty tough situation with his son.

[631] So, you know, that is my other follow -up.

[632] It's like you can't just say, oh, Hunter Biden laptop, you are wrong and have that mean Joe Biden is corrupt.

[633] But the problem is is that clue there's a certain asymmetry in the amount of evidence that you need to make an allegation because you have Jack Smith lays out all of this detailed information with tapes, with records, with video surveillance, with the sworn testimony.

[634] With many sources.

[635] The sworn testimony of his own lawyer.

[636] And it's like, you got nothing there.

[637] I don't know.

[638] I see nothing, you know, you show somebody an email that has the term, you know, big guy, is it.

[639] That's it.

[640] This is all you need.

[641] There it is.

[642] I don't know.

[643] So you have a happy Father's Day.

[644] I hope you have some good plans.

[645] First Father's Day in New Orleans.

[646] I have no real plans.

[647] Actually, I don't know.

[648] These days, I'm not big on those sorts of things.

[649] I think that we'll probably just hang out, go to the park, enjoy the weather, work on my tan.

[650] Maybe I'll work on an article about Ron Johnson's Secret Source.

[651] treat ourselves to a nice dinner.

[652] How about you?

[653] Do you have Father's Day plans?

[654] No, not really at this point.

[655] You know, Father's Day's never been as big as Mother's Day.

[656] You notice that?

[657] And that's whatever.

[658] I think that everybody should get the recognition that they require, you know.

[659] And the problem is for Father's Day, Father's Day my, at least as I observe, with my straight friends.

[660] You know, Father's Day is really more of a day where the dads get to, like, extend their normal golf day of four hours while the mother has to parent to six hours.

[661] You know, they get to extend the happy hour on their golf hours.

[662] But I'm not a golfer.

[663] Neither am I. And we co -parent regardless because, you know, they're just both of us.

[664] So it's nice.

[665] I love having people wish me a happy Father's Day when me and Toulouse are on the street.

[666] That warms my hearts.

[667] If you happen to bump into me in the Garden District this weekend, you can, you know, I'd love to hear that.

[668] But besides that, you know, that's just it.

[669] That's life.

[670] Life is good.

[671] You have a great weekend.

[672] I'm going to enjoy the few precious hours I have here in Asheville, North Carolina.

[673] You enjoy New Orleans, and we'll talk next week, Tim.

[674] All right, you too, Charlie.

[675] Say hi to Ken Cuccinelli when you see him on the flight back for me. Tell my side, what's up?

[676] Your gay former strategist says, hey, Ken, long time, no see.

[677] It could happen.

[678] Thank you all for listening to this weekend's Bullwark podcast.

[679] I'm Charlie Sykes.

[680] We will be back on Monday, and we'll do this all over again.

[681] The Bullwork podcast is produced by Katie Cooper, and engineered and edited by Jason Brown.