The Bulwark Podcast XX
[0] Hi, Charlie Sykes here.
[1] There's really never been a better time to help support the mission of the bulwark to bring sanity and a non -tribal lens to our national politics.
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[10] Thanks.
[11] Welcome to the Bull Work podcast.
[12] It is Friday.
[13] I have to say that I am kind of appalled and amazed that we've come to the end of September already.
[14] So Tim Miller joined me on the podcast, the weekend podcast.
[15] I mean, this is it.
[16] It's September.
[17] And here in Wisconsin, it's like, I left for a weekend, and I come back in its fall.
[18] And it's, so, anyway, happy October almost.
[19] I don't miss living in places like that here in California.
[20] We're right in the prime of our late summer.
[21] You know, October is our warmest month here.
[22] And sit outside.
[23] I was getting a tan yesterday.
[24] I sat outside.
[25] Yeah, I was sitting outside on the day.
[26] deck.
[27] I was doing some reading, doing a little prep, working on an article, and just right out there on my deck.
[28] It was nice.
[29] It's not fall, no sweaters.
[30] And, and it's really, it's a nice feeling.
[31] I always had a fall depression.
[32] I think that was kind of a mentally vestigial related to being in school.
[33] This continued into my 30s.
[34] Around the time of going back to school, I'd get depressed.
[35] Some people loved going back to school.
[36] Not me. I loved summer.
[37] And so I continue to have that.
[38] I don't get it as bad now, I think, because I don't have to deal with this.
[39] I'm very excited.
[40] We also have one more.
[41] Can I promote one thing, Charlie, before we get going now that we're just, you know, we've brought, if you need a double dose of Tim, I'm still going to be here every Friday.
[42] We're just going to still be doing our kind of, you know, grumpy old man, grumpy young man, bestie routine every Friday.
[43] But we've brought the next level out from behind the paywall.
[44] And so, and that airs on Wednesdays.
[45] So, you know, people just need a little extra dose.
[46] They're getting five days of Charlie.
[47] if they need two days at Tim.
[48] That's right.
[49] Go subscribe.
[50] Go subscribe and click on Little Deal.
[51] It's on YouTube and on Apple Podcasts.
[52] This is what America needed.
[53] I need another podcast with Tim Miller.
[54] I think so.
[55] Okay, I want to go back to the fall thing because I always, I was not a fan of going back to school either, to be honest.
[56] But there's some memory that I'm having here, and I was actually struggling with this morning on a cool crisp fall day.
[57] And it is actually kind of beautiful here.
[58] I mean, the leaves haven't quite changed, but it is going to be quite lovely.
[59] And I had this moment of sort of trying to remember, you know, sort of a little bit of burst of happiness and optimism, which is very sort of untoward.
[60] And I was saying, I think, what was it that I was remembering?
[61] And I'm not sure, you know, maybe that that sort of sense, you know, that something new was starting, something cool was ahead.
[62] You know, I was indulging some sort of, you know, irrational expectation as a young person.
[63] And I, you know, and even though, you know, all of them were doomed to disappointment, I can still remember those little bursts of optimism.
[64] so I'm going to kind of hold on to that so that that is possible.
[65] Well, anyway, you know, I'm glad to hear the things are going well out there on the left.
[66] That is nice.
[67] I'm glad that you have hopefulness, but I just have to say a memory of hopefulness.
[68] Well, I just want to just strip it away because one more thing, because not only do I disagree with that, it's like pumpkin spice, the sweaters, all of it, dislike it all.
[69] It's the bottom of my season list.
[70] So, you know, I want to take the fall hate from people.
[71] I just, I don't want to be wishy -washy on this.
[72] It is the worst for me. And living in California with no fall is lovely.
[73] I understand that you've chosen to have the front road seat to American carnage and the decline and fall of Western civilization.
[74] You know, earthquakes, wildfires, homelessness, crime, needles dropping from the sky.
[75] By the way, speaking of the decline and fall of Western civilization, I just wanted to play this just to start off as an indication of the decadent.
[76] of the West.
[77] No, it's beautiful.
[78] I've never heard a flute degraded like that.
[79] No, exactly.
[80] For normal, rational human beings, you're going, wait, wait, that's beautiful.
[81] That was absolutely lovely.
[82] And yet, I regret to tell you that if you hang on in right -wing media circles these days, this has become topic number one for the degradation of American culture.
[83] And I kid you not.
[84] shit on the Mona Lisa, that little clip that you just played.
[85] I hope you understand the degree.
[86] We're going to come back to this, okay?
[87] I want to come back because I do, I completely agree with you that we need to, we need to expose our audience to the deep thoughts of the, of the, of the deeply thoughtful Ben Shapiro, who devotes a truly extraordinary monologue to how awful it was.
[88] What you deserve.
[89] Can we play the flute again?
[90] It's a wrap.
[91] I'm outraged.
[92] Sorry.
[93] I am appalled.
[94] I must say it.
[95] It must be, you know, we have our down moments and everything, but it must be exhausting to be a right -wing troll these days, figuring, okay, what are you going to do today, honey?
[96] Well, I'm going to spend my entire monologue talking about Lizzo playing James Madison's flute is really emblematic of everything that's wrong.
[97] No, I mean, it's the matter of everything that's wrong with American culture.
[98] Okay.
[99] I'm already gotten to the point where I'm making fun.
[100] Can we just, let's, I'm going to set this aside.
[101] Let's work up to this, okay?
[102] Because we need some caffeine between ourselves and this discussion.
[103] So it's Friday morning.
[104] Hurricane Ian has just devastated Florida.
[105] These pictures are just absolutely stunning.
[106] The damage is just horrific.
[107] The human suffering, almost beyond imagination.
[108] And I have to say, and this is something I'm sort of withholding and put an asterisk behind, I'm struck by a couple of things that we ought to at least acknowledge.
[109] Number one, you notice that nobody in the White House is talking about punishing Florida because of its politics.
[110] There's no movement.
[111] There doesn't seem to be any residual opposition to providing federal aid to Florida.
[112] And there seems to be a minimal amount of assholery going on between the Democratic president of the United States and the Republican governor.
[113] of Florida, at least so far.
[114] And I think, you know, that's the way it should be.
[115] But in 2022, because the bar is so low, we had to at least acknowledge that.
[116] Yeah.
[117] It's, I mean, I think is going to regret saying this.
[118] No, I don't think so.
[119] I think it's going to be a long recovery.
[120] And I think that this is when people are always like, well, you know, what about is what's coming behind Trump worse than Trump?
[121] And is it different?
[122] And you can analyze all this.
[123] There are like certain elements of this that are unique to his psychopathy.
[124] And like this need to be loved, this desire that I was only going to help people who are going through a national disaster if the governor of that state rubbed my belly.
[125] That is pretty unique to him.
[126] I'm sure there will be other man -children that will come behind, but it will be hard for them to match the extent of his derangement on this particular score.
[127] But yeah, you could tell from some of the conservative media, the anti -ante crowd, you know, there was like two hours, two days ago or whenever this was bearing down, where Biden hadn't yet talked to to Santa's.
[128] He talked to like some of the mayors and they were like, oh, you could see how much they were hoping for Biden to have the same level of pettiness, right?
[129] You know, Biden hasn't talked to him yet.
[130] Uh -oh, what?
[131] I thought he was going to be mister.
[132] And I guess I saw a report this morning.
[133] They've already talked four or five times.
[134] And he's, you know, acting like a normal president as he has continued to do, which is exactly right.
[135] And I think this is obvious.
[136] We shouldn't have to say this, like the downside of the performative trollery politics, which is that, when you're in charge of a state like Ron DeSantis is, you don't know what crisis is going to hit tomorrow.
[137] You don't know who you're going to need help from.
[138] You don't know you're going to have responsibility over people that didn't vote for you.
[139] I know this was like the baseline of our politics for, you know, my entire childhood and yours, right, that that you're governing for everybody, even if you're campaigning against people and you need to keep that in mind throughout the process.
[140] So this is, you know, you don't want something like this to be a reminder because it seems really horrible and obviously we're sending our thoughts out to the folks in Florida and JVL put put some links up in the triad as well for how we how you know our community can support that but it is just this kind of stark reminder right that like there's a there is a reason not just being self -righteous getting on your high horse that politicians aren't supposed to do performative assholery you know for trolling purposes right like the which is that they have responsibilities over people that might may or may not have ended up voting for them.
[141] Yeah, that there are real people and you have a real job.
[142] All right, the other big story of the morning is that Vladimir Putin held a big media event, a big ceremony in which to formally annex Ukrainean territories to Russia after these completely bogus sham elections.
[143] You're not my party is devoted to Vladimir Putin and, you know, what he's going to do next.
[144] And so just give me your thoughts on all of this because, I mean, Universally, I guess, outside of the Tucker Carlson Green Room, everybody is regarding this as pretty much a joke, but perhaps ominous because it might mark some kind of an escalation, giving him a pretext to use nuclear weapons.
[145] What do you make of all this?
[146] Yeah, you know, I'm not obviously a Kremlinologist.
[147] We have Kathy Young, who's been doing great work on this.
[148] I've been reading other smart people, listening to The Shield of the Republic podcast, another good one, to try to get smart.
[149] And so, you know, who knows?
[150] For me to come up here and say, oh, this is what Putin will do next.
[151] I think what I tried to get at in not my party is the state of play with, you know, we don't need to start patting each other on the back and start doing victory dances in the end zone right now.
[152] But the state of play is really very bleak for him.
[153] And that's legitimate.
[154] I wanted to do this episode because I had some friends who were texting me some less political friends who are like, you know, is this like Western media propaganda or, you know, this happening or is this like really true?
[155] And it's like, this is true.
[156] He's cornered.
[157] It's not to say that he's, you know, that a. coup is coming and our democracy is coming to rush anytime soon, but they are in a really shockingly bad situation.
[158] What you would almost say is the worst case situation imaginable, like when they were marching to Kiev, right, if we went back into the podcast that we were doing that week and said, okay, seven months, whatever it is, eight months, you know, from here, he'll be doing conscriptions, there'll be protests, there'll be violent outbursts between the military people that are going to bring people into the military.
[159] his propaganda networks will be starting to complain about him big social media accounts you know because Russia does have the it's not like China Russia has TikTok and stuff that the most famous like Russia's social media accounts are they're starting to speak out and be like I don't want to get I don't want to get brought into the military Ukraine's now an offense or has been now for a few weeks in the Kharkiv region and others so he's in a rough spot and and so I think that there's some legitimate fears that somebody that's in a rough spot might start to get desperate and do insane things.
[160] And so that's something to be afraid of.
[161] But just from a straight kind of military state of play perspective, it's hard to think about what Ukraine and us and their Western allies could have done to get them in a better position than they are right now, given the terrible hand that they were dealt by the invasion.
[162] Well, and also Putin's decisions are making things worse for him.
[163] There's this call -up of 300 ,000 reservists, a period of has just been a complete shambolic mess.
[164] I think I saw a tweet yesterday from the former ambassador to Russia, McFaul, who said that more Russian men have now fled the country than have been actually conscripted.
[165] And these pictures of thousands of Russian men leaving the country, which, by the way, Russians are hearing about, I mean, you know, to your point about the fact that their social media, you know, Every city, every workplace, you know, has a story now.
[166] And I was just watching one of these clips of one of the Russian television, you know, pro -Putin propagandists who looked like he was having a, you know, a moment of real personal depression about what's going on here.
[167] I mean, they're talking about, hey, guys, maybe we should start winning.
[168] Maybe we should start doing something.
[169] This is really bad that so many people are leaving.
[170] You people are going to really regret this.
[171] And they played a clip of a priest, you know, saying, you know, what will you come back?
[172] to how will you live with yourself?
[173] So again, the bottom line is that within Russia, there is this tremendous upheaval.
[174] It's not just protests.
[175] It's people who are leaving the country, families that are being ripped apart.
[176] And they're talking about this on state media, that this is taking place.
[177] So it's one thing when you can't go get your happy meal at McDonald's, because McDonald's has shut down.
[178] It's something else when your son, your brother, your father has basically just packed his bag and left the freaking country because they're calling you up to be used as, you know, cannon fodder in this meat grinder to mix metaphors in southern Ukraine.
[179] So, yeah, this is not looking good.
[180] A shocking stat that McFal stat, right?
[181] Yeah.
[182] Again, it's hard to get the hard numbers you can be certain of it.
[183] But even if that's in the ballpark of right more fled than have been conscripted, that just shows how that's being received.
[184] And I think you tie that to another stat that just keeps sticking with me is the deaths, the Russian military deaths in Ukraine, exceed the American deaths for the entirety of Iraq and Afghanistan, right?
[185] So again, you think about, yeah, put together.
[186] And that is tied over a decade plus, and all this has happened in Russia in less than a year.
[187] So, you know, not everybody's going to know somebody in their family, just like not everybody in America knows somebody that was lost in those wars.
[188] but still, you know, you start to, right?
[189] It starts to become much closer, and obviously that has an impact on people, and I think that their awareness of how dangerous and how deadly it's been and how poorly it's gone is what's driving a lot of these folks to flee.
[190] Okay, and I know the last thing on earth that you need, Tim, is more praise for me. Hold on that.
[191] Can we do one more Russia thing before you give me a tongue bath?
[192] Okay, play.
[193] Okay.
[194] Because I want to praise you for a second.
[195] I was like, somebody had to write this.
[196] I was glad you did it in your newsletter because I was talking internally.
[197] The Nord Stream two element of this side of things is just also worth talking about.
[198] It's just also worth talking about really quick.
[199] Because it's crazy.
[200] It's crazy.
[201] And it's just like it's the kind of thing that shows the imbalance about what's happening.
[202] You know, when people do the both sides, media criticism, blah, blah, blah.
[203] And it's like there is no lefty equivalent to Tucker Carlson.
[204] I may there's a Twitter feed somewhere.
[205] But Tucker has the biggest platform in America on this, and obviously the biggest on the right -wing media site.
[206] Charlie Kirk, we did last week on Journey Point of USA.
[207] Charlie Kirk as extremely influential group, probably the most influential activist group.
[208] De facto RNC now.
[209] Yeah, it really is the party.
[210] And in some ways, he's more the head of the party than Romney McDaniel, Romney -Romney.
[211] And so you have Tucker and Kirk and others, but these are two examples.
[212] My old friend Clay Travis, I saw I did this.
[213] just spouting off of like randomly accusing the US there's a news item I assume everybody's seen it but where there's a leak which we think is a sabotage of the Nord Stream 2 pipeline going from Denmark into Europe and these conservative talking heads are out there saying I think Biden did this right like the US is doing this because they want to escalate because they're such war mongers now and they want nuclear war with Russia and this is just like madness This is like the mood landing is fake level accusations.
[214] It's everyone is now Alex Jones.
[215] Everybody is now Alex Jones.
[216] And it's gone.
[217] It's not just, you know, on some, you know, community access cable channel.
[218] It's now Fox News and it is Charlie Kirk.
[219] And they're all like, well, U .S. intelligence agencies have to be considered guilty until proven innocent.
[220] And my point was, okay, so this is, this is a weird flex for the America first crowd, which has now become blame America first crowd.
[221] I mean, this is what conservatives used to routinely accuse the left of doing, that you always blamed America.
[222] But even this is like, this is fringe stuff because around the world, the assumption is if there was sabotage, it's probably the Russians.
[223] There's no evidence, no evidence whatsoever that it is the United States.
[224] But, you know, so yes, you have Tucker Carlson spreading this bullshit.
[225] You have Charlie Kirk.
[226] It does remind us, though, that once you've decided.
[227] you're going to accept one big lie, I think your brain is then set up to accept any big lie.
[228] Once you have been deranged in some way, then you're willing to believe or be willing to say anything.
[229] And I think we're in that moment, because this is so crazy.
[230] And so the sort of the hate America thing from American conservatives is like, well, this is kind of new, right?
[231] Could we at least acknowledge this is new?
[232] From had a good tweet about how he saw that there was like a little bit of a, just an ember of this in the early aughts.
[233] Fromm was going back and said an article, but he's like, I never would have thought that this would have reached this level.
[234] And here's another difference, you know, which is, sure, there were always conspiracy -minded people.
[235] There are always people out there.
[236] But it's just, it's hard to imagine, you know, if John McCain were alive or if we had, you know, the pre -defense traded Lindsay Graham, that there would be people.
[237] out there accusing the US of sabotaging our European allies in order to agitate for nuclear war and there are prominent people on Fox there would be somebody out there that would be saying, guys, no, right?
[238] Like this is not right.
[239] This is not true.
[240] I mean, say what you want about going back to the birtherism stuff.
[241] There are always at least some people that were saying the handful that were like, no, this is not true.
[242] You know, we know the McDaniels story.
[243] And that does matter.
[244] It's not to say that it's good, or that it was perfect back then or that it didn't merit criticism, but it matters to have leaders that are correcting the record when there are this outrageous level of things being said.
[245] And I think in the post -Trump era, they've just all been beaten down to such a degree.
[246] It's like, what's the point?
[247] Why engage?
[248] Yeah, why bother?
[249] Because there's nobody.
[250] And it's kind of crazy.
[251] There's nobody not a single Republican on the Intelligence Committee.
[252] Nobody is speaking out and defending the Biden administration on this.
[253] It's like it's a blame America first.
[254] it's also blamed Biden for everything just by making something up out of out of whole cloth you know there's no evidence where there's no logic for and and they they're twisting this video it shows our new social media world it's like Biden said some video in February we're in a press conference he's like if the Russians do this we'll shut down Nord Stream 2 you know but it was more of a it's a negotiation tactic right like trying to convince them not to invade you know he was he was he was making that statement and now they're like like, okay, because I have this one little eight -second piece of video, now I can pump it out there.
[255] And all the people who are Alex Jones, Tucker Carlson -brained will look at that and be like, oh, man, good point.
[256] It must have been Biden.
[257] It's nuts.
[258] Well, and it is nuts.
[259] But so this hits the trifecta.
[260] It's anti -American.
[261] It's crazy.
[262] But it's also profoundly stupid because the notion that we would sabotage our allies at this point, that we would create an energy crisis that would weaken European.
[263] resolve and maybe drive up the price of gas in this country, it's so stupid to think that that's a strategy.
[264] And there's part of me in the back of my mind going, and I wonder this sometimes with Trump, when he embraces QAnon, it's whether there's sort of this little troll thing going on, going, how far can I push it?
[265] How much can I make people believe?
[266] Okay, so I've done this.
[267] What if I told people this?
[268] Could I get people?
[269] It's sort of like, you know, how powerful am I?
[270] How stupid are they what can i get away with because otherwise why would tucker carlson you know push something that is so anti -american crazy and really really really stupid help me with this partly maybe that but it's partly that just this we have to make bide and look as bad as possible and and and rip away and this is where carlson and bannon get together rip away the trust in all of these institutions right like the only way to do that is to just tear away, you know, the idea that the Republican base could believe that the FBI could act responsibly ever, you know, that the national security agencies could, that the administration could, that there is anybody that is out there that is acting responsibly.
[271] And so any opportunity you have to, like, advance something that might chip away at that one more time is an opportunity that they take.
[272] So I think it's as simple as that.
[273] And plus, he's kind of a Russian asset.
[274] there's that maybe too.
[275] Yeah.
[276] Well, I'm not going to argue with you about that.
[277] So in passing, you invoke the name of John McCain, and that was in the news again this week.
[278] It's another one of those.
[279] It's almost too exhausting to talk about.
[280] Do you remember that story that during the Trump presidency?
[281] It's almost too bizarre to even spend time with, but the Trump White House had wanted the USS John McCain to be out of sight during a photo op they had out in the Pacific.
[282] And again, part of it is like, okay, that's just too petty.
[283] It's too stupid that because you hate John McCain, you don't want this U .S. naval ship and its crew to be visible.
[284] And of course, the Trump White House said this is ridiculous.
[285] It's not true.
[286] It's, you know, completely fake news.
[287] And now we're finding out because of Freedom of Information Act request that it was absolutely true.
[288] It's in black and white.
[289] They really, really did that.
[290] And this is one of those, you know, just shoot me now.
[291] I mean, how much can we do it?
[292] He hated John McCain.
[293] The level of pettiness is just like, you can't even get your head around.
[294] Off the charts.
[295] So my one thought on this is just, I just want to, like, as soon as you look at the story, you're like, this is so crazy, it's so petty, so stupid.
[296] Trump is such an asshole, and then kind of move on.
[297] Yeah.
[298] I'm just like, thinking in the context of my book and like dealing with the mindset of these people, I just, I like to sometimes think, you are the military attaché, to the White House and you have to sit down at your government computer and send an email to somebody in Japan.
[299] It's like, the commander in chief is requesting that we move the USS John McCain ship or at least turn it around so he doesn't have to see his name.
[300] Like, how can you type that email and just maintain even a shred of dignity?
[301] You know, the one thing, I doubt not is a direct quote from the email, obviously, but the one thing that is a direct quote from from these emails that really took out to me as one of the recipients in the Navy or in some chain discussing this for probably, this is just sad.
[302] You know, and it is.
[303] It's sad.
[304] It's like, it has just to be demoralizing and sad.
[305] Speaking of demoralizing and sad, okay, can I get to the part where I give you what you don't need, which is more praise.
[306] I'm ready for it.
[307] Butter me up, baby.
[308] Yeah, well, the piece in the bulwark yesterday, which was a thorough deconstruction of a spin article in the Washington Post, And, you know, again, you know, send your DMs to Tim about this.
[309] But the Washington Post the other day did this amazingly credulous article about, you know, Kevin McCarthy, you know, real man of political genius.
[310] Behind the scenes, he has really been working to get rid of the crazies in the Republican Party.
[311] And, of course, the example was Madison Cawthorn.
[312] And you wrote a takedown of this piece saying, okay, this whole thing about Kevin McCarthy being the champion for normalcy.
[313] Can I just read a couple of paragraphs, my two favorite paragraphs?
[314] The Post article quotes an unnamed well -wisher who calls McCarthy a political animal who is not to be trifled with, saying of him, no better friend, no worse enemy.
[315] You're right.
[316] I presume this person insisted on anonymity to avoid the public humiliation that would come with such a ludicrous tongue bad.
[317] But the next paragraph is better.
[318] Because that description doesn't fit McCarthy at all, you wrote.
[319] Here it comes.
[320] I was actually, when I called this up, I started laughing.
[321] The truth about Kevin McCarthy is that he's a toying, spineless suckup.
[322] He's a scar who thinks he's a Simba, a Saul Goodman who thinks he's a Gus Fring, a gimp who thinks he's a master.
[323] Yeah.
[324] Okay, for those of you that are missing the popular culture references, I can't help you.
[325] I mean, it's just, it's too, I don't want to explain it.
[326] But so talk to me about this.
[327] I mean, obviously, you know, my read, your read on this was this was Kevin McCarthy trying to figure out a way to reassure the donor class that, okay, just because I'm going to be in a caucus that has people like Matt Gates and Marjorie Taylor Green and Lauren Bovert and Paul Gosar and Louie Comert and how should I go on.
[328] It doesn't mean that I have not really been a champion for normal Republicans and the Washington Post just.
[329] wallowed it down yeah and here's what really i just so here's what really how do you step back because i've been in the pitch mode in these meetings i have a pretty good sense for what happened like a couple of these things are true right like i you know kevin mccarthy it's not like kevin mccarthy's just sitting around doing nothing you know he's got a super pack with millions tens and tens of millions of dollars and so you know they looked at some of these primaries engaged in some of them they got a couple scalps you know they got madison cothorn they did a little bit of gay baiting to do that i felt like i needed to mention that in the buller article since the Washington Post didn't like the wink wink Madison's a fag campaign that they were running with like pictures of him in a lacy shirt and pictures him with a boy with his head on his chest and that weird video and that's probably what did him in no no seriously this is this is that is probably what because all the other stuff obviously doesn't move Republican primary voters so they they went there okay go marjorie tayore green's doing just fine right so it's not like Madison's crazy messaging was working so I'm sure there's there were some other North Carolina people aren't happy with them.
[330] There were some local elements, but it was not a small part of the campaign.
[331] Let's just be honest about that.
[332] So they got that one.
[333] And that was, if you want to compliment somebody for their Machiavellian effort and gay baiting Madison Cothorn to get a more normal Republican in there, like, okay, that's one in the checkbox.
[334] All the other examples, though, are just these, oh, well, they did these little small ball things to go after, you know, Laura Lumer, who's this racist bigot that was running in Florida.
[335] and Carl Paladino who you're right who says race is bigot was running in New York but it wasn't like a fourth -right campaign against Carl Paladino I mean Elise Stefano his hand -picked conference chair endorsed him publicly in the last week right so it's not like he's he's running controlling things with an iron fist here but you know if you can put together a package you know you can put together a little memo or a PowerPoint deck with like here or five things we did to help a more more team normal person over a more crazy person in the primaries and get that like once you step back to 30 ,000 feet you realize this is ridiculous and like he's doing this because he has a really a tough job that he's not going to be up for which is he's got to keep these donors these New York finance donors who don't like Marjorie Taylor green and Madison Cothorn at all happy by convincing them that he's doing something right that he's trying to manage this that he's not doing you know that he's not you know letting the Herschel walkers and stuff through.
[336] And so he's using a couple of these examples to rub these rich guys' bellies and make them feel like they, you know, can pump money into these house races and feel good about it and feel good that it's not going to be, you know, Nazis running the House caucus next year.
[337] But the problem is that he just, he doesn't have any control over the part.
[338] This is a bottom up problem, right?
[339] He can make a couple of things on the edges, but he's not willing to actually take on the fight, right?
[340] You know, this is the Madison example.
[341] Like, Madison is the only person that he actually did a full frontal fight on.
[342] All the other examples in this post article are these secretive furtive ads that they did behind the scenes.
[343] Madison is the only one person he took on actually, you know, took on, had the courage to stand up to.
[344] And it's because Madison, it's like a 27 -year -old joke who accused him of going to cocaine orgies, right?
[345] Madison gave him no, no option but to stand up to him.
[346] But that was it.
[347] He isn't standing up to Bobert.
[348] He's not standing out to Paul Gosar, to MTG, to Mo Brooks, to the other insurrectionists that were planning the January 6th thing.
[349] There are three people that were at the January 6th at and around the Capitol, not just at the rally that went to the Capitol, three House nominees in this caucus.
[350] He's not, he's support, he's endorsed all of them.
[351] One of the three, they did try to do primary campaigns against.
[352] That failed.
[353] Obviously, we've discussed people that voted to impeach Kevin didn't defend any of them really Peter Meyer Yeah I mean he didn't he did nothing for Peter Meyer All he did was whined about the mean Democrats running ads That talked about how John Gibbs was an insurrectionist And then voters voted for him Like they didn't try to campaign for Peter Meyer Peter Meyer's name is a mention in this Washington Post article They did try to campaign for Jamie Hurrah Butler Who's running against like a literal Like dude who plays more than footsie with white nationalists And that failed Right so just across and then across the board they're insane people.
[354] You know, you can read the article, but my favorite one was in Colorado, you know, my home state, a woman who was the leader of the effort to secede 11 counties is the nominee for the new swing district that they just created because of redistricting because of Colorado is growing.
[355] Yeah, super normal.
[356] And so, so I, you know, the reality of Kevin McCarthy, just just to, you know, bring this to the, you know, most discreet point, is that he saw the failure of Bainer, and Ryan of being able to control the crazies, right?
[357] Bainer and Ryan, say what you want about them, at least tried to fight them on certain things, right?
[358] For Ryan, it was, you know, budget stuff, Bainer was immigration stuff, and they both got overthrown, basically, because the lunatics in their conference didn't want what they were selling.
[359] And so McCarthy's insight is, I'm going to give the lunatics everything they want, right?
[360] Right, right.
[361] And I'm going to do a few things behind the scenes to make the donors happy, right?
[362] Like, I'm going to do a few things behind it.
[363] And that's what this article is.
[364] This article is, we're not going to have a insurrection, pun intended, in my conference, because I'm going to give the lunatics whatever they want.
[365] And, you know, once a quarter, maybe not, actually, you know, twice a year, I'm going to do one thing that's going to make the people that, you know, live in New York, who don't follow this as closely, who are pumping money into my packs, feel like, you know, that they have got a responsible team normal hand at the tiller and like that that's it and that is why like you know he's the gimp not the master because he's not you're only powerful if you can actually use your power and influence to to do something right and like that and Kevin's proposition is not that he's like I want to be in power but let the mob control me and that way and that way and I will stay in power that way and you know it's not nothing he's going to be the speaker of the house he's going get a little bust in the Capitol, but it's not, it's not Machiavellian hardheading politicking.
[366] So what kind of a reaction did you get to this piece?
[367] Because I have to say that I was surprised reading it because usually the Washington Post political coverage is a little more savvy, it's a little more spin -resistant.
[368] Do you get some blowback to this, Tim?
[369] Yeah, I did.
[370] Well, I had a very heavy amount of direct messages from political reporters Some of them listen to this podcast.
[371] Some of them listen to this podcast.
[372] I don't want to betray any private messages.
[373] Hello, Washington political reporters listening to the board podcast.
[374] But there were several who were giving me quiet applause because they were like, what the fuck with that article.
[375] But, you know, I can't do that because I'm writing for another outlet.
[376] There were others who were doing the whole, oh, you're being too mean.
[377] Like, you know, it's not nothing that they beat Laura Lumer down in Florida.
[378] Like, doesn't he?
[379] that I can you know can don't we have to give some credit word too and I'm just like I no I don't I actually I don't I don't think so I think that once you submitted to letting the caucus bully you into trying to end our democracy I think you got to demonstrate like a little bit more public facing courage than just standing up to Madison Cothorn if you want to get an add boy right I just I don't think that the atta boys are called for here I think you could write an article mentioning that they did secretly you know trying to nudge a few of these primaries the right direction and they had a deeply mixed record of success and doing that but trying to turn them into a sengali that's a zero so yeah yeah you know a little buzz about about the about that in washington but this is what has this is like the naval gasey like BS to be honest yeah so one related question you kind of mentioned this you wrote in the article is somebody who's made self -aggrandizing pitches about my side's political genius for political reporters.
[380] I know how to leverage a shoot what flies, claim what falls ethos to make yourself look brilliant.
[381] What is the shoot what flies claim what falls?
[382] I love that.
[383] I love that line.
[384] What is that?
[385] Explain that for me. This is my go -to consultant moves.
[386] If you're out there and you're a consultant, just put this one and this is your new motto, you know, put it in your hatch.
[387] Shoot what flies means, you know, you go out there, you put out press releases, you maybe if it's a positive thing you know you try to pitch reporters you do what you can to draw attention to your to your client and you know if articles pop up if people tweet about it if something goes your way you take credit it's a it's a it's a hunting thing it's like you know if there are a bunch of birds up in the air i did that yeah that was me everybody's just shooting at the at the gaggle of geese up in the air and and there's five of you and everybody's shooting and one of the geese falls you get to claim what fell, all right?
[388] So I think that is what's happening here, right?
[389] They did some ads in a couple dozen districts, and, you know, five of them, the crazy person lost out of 435.
[390] So you put together a little package, you claim what falls.
[391] Those were my five, you know, and I think that's what's happening here.
[392] Okay, I do want to get to the decline and fall of Western civilization a la Ben Shapiro in a moment.
[393] But since we're on this issue of spin, And as a former recovering spin master communicator, I wanted to get your thoughts on the way the White House handled one of Joe Biden's gaps this week, probably the bottom story of the week.
[394] But I wanted to just get your thoughts on it.
[395] So Biden is at this White House conference and, you know, he does his, you know, call out to elected officials.
[396] And he does, and he does a call out to, you know, Congressman Jackie Willorsky saying, hey, Jackie, is Jackie in the House?
[397] and everybody's going, oh, shit, you know, because Jackie Wollorski was killed in a car accident last month.
[398] So it's a gap.
[399] Okay, so it happens.
[400] He goes, you know, Jackie, where are you?
[401] Where's Jackie?
[402] And the audience has got to be going off.
[403] Okay, so this comes up at the White House briefing.
[404] So Karin Jean -Pierre, who's, I think, a pretty smart lady, tries to spin it to saying, well, she was top of the president's mind.
[405] There was no gaffe there.
[406] He was thinking about her, et cetera.
[407] What should she have said?
[408] I'm happy I don't have her job and so I'll start there that's that's tough to be honest I just I don't understand in these situations this has been a long time like little knit of mine I didn't know you're going to bring this up so I've felt this way going back to Bush era and I've always like I wonder if Jeb ever won if I could actually do this or if there's just too much internal pressure in the White House to not do this little thing which is just admit a minor mistake yeah right Obama's just spokespeople were reluctant to do this obviously trump's people never would i mean i to the most absurd ends would not admit anything but i just i don't know why it's wrong there are 435 members of the house and um and you know i i think that you know the right answer just to say that like uh that that president biden just you know was was you know had forgotten about the details of representative walarski as soon as the uh event was over he called her late husband or brother or whatever the issue to you know issue his condolences the president of united states to meet thousands of people right like this becomes really sensitive here like i think it's one of those things like would that be that hard to say if the president was pete right you know i mean like somebody who is obviously extremely sharp and and whatever and it's just like you know the president meets tens of thousands of people and sometimes shit happens right you forget like the details around something uh but because the sensitivity around Biden's, you know, age and, and the fact that, you know, he's obviously lost a step, I think makes, makes them reluctant, drives the reluctance to, like, give the Republican media ecosystem, you know, a win on anything, like, give them a little opportunity to, like, play a quote where, you know, she used, they use the word for God.
[409] Yeah, yeah, but I'm explaining their logic.
[410] Okay, he made a mistake.
[411] He regrets it, get a life.
[412] I mean, why, why try Well, he was thinking about, I mean, it felt like it was almost like one step short of when he's going, you know, Jackie, where, you know, are you here?
[413] Where's Jackie?
[414] You know, they could have asked it, well, the president was praying.
[415] He's Catholic.
[416] And he believes that her mortal soul still is.
[417] And so is this an attack on Christianity?
[418] Are you attacking the president's faith?
[419] Because, you know, because it was just so bizarre.
[420] It's just, okay, he fucked up.
[421] Just like, get over it.
[422] Can we move on?
[423] I mean, there's a hurricane.
[424] There's a war going on.
[425] There's an economy.
[426] And you're asking about.
[427] you're asking you about a gap.
[428] It happens.
[429] He's a mistake, and he called the family, and again, and that's another thing, which is like something Trump wouldn't have done, and others were just like, you know, it's a Republican.
[430] He called the family, you know, whist their condolences, sent his regards, it feels deeply sad, maybe even shout out the other people that died in the car, you know, he wanted me to mention, you know, he asked me when I came out today to mention, right?
[431] Yeah, and there are plenty of things you can do to, like, show that you care while it's just saying, like, I screwed up.
[432] Yeah, exactly.
[433] That's not the worst thing in the world.
[434] Screwed up on that.
[435] Yeah, I just, I screwed up.
[436] It would be kind of refreshing in its own way.
[437] Okay, so deep breath, are we ready for this here?
[438] You tweeted out last night.
[439] I did a text.
[440] Are you going to read the typo?
[441] No, no. This video is an astonishing piece of art that we should put in the Library of Congress and let our ancestors review centuries hence.
[442] That was the title of descendants.
[443] Let our descendants view centuries.
[444] Okay.
[445] I'm sorry.
[446] Yeah.
[447] I see, see, I made a mistake.
[448] Get over it.
[449] Made a mistake.
[450] Get over it.
[451] It's descendants.
[452] I get it.
[453] Thank you, David Bowes.
[454] I didn't even catch it.
[455] Okay.
[456] So what you linked to is Ben Shapiro, who unfortunately, I once told the New York Times was a thinking man's conservative.
[457] One of my worst takes ever.
[458] I was wrong.
[459] I made a mistake.
[460] That was you?
[461] Fuck me. Get a. over it i said something like i swear to god how did i not know that was you all these years no no no i was one of the people somebody else said this i i got you're in this story they quoted me as saying something like he reads books or something i mean it it came off i'm finding the quote okay we'll we review the exact quote it's a dumb quote that sounds as dumb as it was no i have i have no complaints about it i just just move on so i've made a mistake i made a mistake i let's move forward i i deeply regret it and on my list of really bad takes it's on page six but which is single spaced by the way um but you you link to this video of and like so let's let's just play a little bit of this this is all about lizzo i'm so excited for that working with james madison's flute the vulgarization of american history so think about all the things that are going on in the world and you know ben chapero takes a break from you know worried about um you know the demasculinization of the u .s military something by the way if you notice he's wearing a beard now very it's kind of a puby beard if i could say that so this is this is the video this astonishing piece of art that should be put in the library of congress so that our descendants can review it centuries hence um i need to note editorially though that this the soundbite is not enhanced we did not speed it up this is actually Ben Shapiro's voice.
[462] This is the way he talks.
[463] This is the actual thing, Ben Shapiro.
[464] The reason the clip is viral is the contrast between a person's working and the idea of an extraordinarily classy classy instrument, a historic instrument that speaks to sort of the gentility of America's founders being brought into a context that is vulgar.
[465] It's the vulgarization of American history.
[466] Again, Lizzo did both And only one of those clips went viral And so if you noticed that Then you're very, very bad If you notice that then this means that you're some sort of racist Or it means that you don't want black people playing the flute or something No, I just don't want people twerking with historic instruments By the way, I'd be similarly offended as a violinist If there is a strad of Arias Somebody had a strad And that strad was lent out to a musician Who then proceeded to twerk on the strad I would also be insulted Because it turns out that great art should not be degraded Great art American history that should not be branded by Chuck I would love I would love to see Ben Shapiro and Strad hopefully we get somebody doing a twerking on a strad video by next week that is some good shit Charlie Okay so some of our core audience will put in the comment section Tim could you please explain to us what twerking is could you define twerking so that we can understand the umbrage taken by Ben Shapiro champion of great art twerking is like a gyrating butt dance you know kind of like if you're just really it's just it's a it's a dance that's focused really on the gluteus a lot of gyrating kind of in some some kind of drop in low um you can google i think it's fair to say that james madison never moved his butt when he was playing the flute well a fun fact that i've learned subsequent to ben jabrero's video which you only played a third of it i watched the entire three minutes three times i watched i watch i i watch it it all three times i sat back i got a i got a glass of wine out before i listen you wanted me to play the full three minutes i can't do it i was i've watched it now now i guess three and a half times um and uh you know the interesting fun fact i did a little googling is a james madison's flute technically i guess it was technically james madison's flute but then it was his son's flute the son was an alcoholic and had debts and sold the flute to like i don't they didn't have pawn shops back then but whatever the guy at the local corner store or whatever, to pay off his, or the bar, to pay off his debts.
[467] And so, you know, just as a matter of facts, like, let's putting aside some of the other elements of this.
[468] I don't know about the gentility with which the flute had been treated in its day back in the 18th century.
[469] But, you know, that's just a point of interest.
[470] Hey, can you imagine?
[471] So what was this all about?
[472] So how did Lizzo end up with James Madison's flute and why should we care?
[473] Yeah, what happened was the archives, I guess, tweeted out or posted in some place picture of a crystal flute that they had that was James Madison's crystal flute.
[474] Lizzo, people who don't know, is a floutist and also a pop star.
[475] She's actually a very talented floutist, which I did not know.
[476] Super talented.
[477] No, no, no. That was, I think, her first you know, what she was trained in.
[478] I don't think she was trained in twerking.
[479] I think she was trained on the flute.
[480] And so and it's very accessible music every pop music you don't know lizzo just go ahead and pull up Spotify check yourself out about damn time or something i think you'll enjoy it and um and so she i guess i don't know which social media account but on one of her social accounts said i think maybe twitter said i really want to play that and said she is a concert coming up in dc and so the was it the archives or library congress i said library of congress it meant library Congress said, you know, why you come by?
[481] And so the Library of Congress let her play it two times once it within the Library of Congress.
[482] And then she did, they brought it out on stage at her concert in D .C. at where she played, I guess, two notes and then kind of talked about how badass it was that she got to play the flute and then, you know, did some twerking.
[483] And this was what, this was what riled up a little bit.
[484] I don't know if it got some, you know, feelings going down in his private area or what it was exactly that riled him up so much.
[485] But that was that part of the video that is what he's trying to distinguish, you know, her treating it with respect in the Library of Congress, one thing, playing two notes out on stage, they're doing a twerk while dressed scandily clad.
[486] We didn't make it the part of the video where he complains about her dress.
[487] Too much skin for Ben.
[488] He was hoping for the hijab, I guess, on Lizzo.
[489] I don't know, but too much skin for him, not appropriate, degrading American history.
[490] And, you know, here's, I think, my most interesting take on this, Charlie, is that I think he's, really has convinced himself that he's mad really he really he that's real i've spent a lot of time ruminating on this and i'm like is this just one of those things where you need content today and you got to come up with something yeah and you see a black lady with a historic flute and you're like i'm going to be mad about this i'm going to get riled up but what i think is letting black women now play james madison's flute this is where the country has come yeah exactly black women were not allowed to touch that flute back then back then yeah we should have respect for the historic context which the flute was in or the black lady would have been a slave um no I think that what has happened is that your brain gets broken by being on the internet constantly every day, having to be fake mad about things.
[491] And eventually, our brains are powerful and we can mold them.
[492] And I think that his brain, he's molded it to such a degree that he creates a facsimile of genuine anger that his brain stem feeds down to him when he sees something like this because he knows he has to do this.
[493] And so he's now convinced himself of these things that this, because when you watch me, he goes on and on.
[494] It's just about like the people, about how people who now get mad at me and say, I'm a racist for being mad at this.
[495] And, like, they don't, how can they not understand how we might not be outraged by the degradation of this historic flute that I just learned about two minutes ago that I didn't know existed before.
[496] And I truly believe that they've convinced himself of this.
[497] Yeah, yeah.
[498] So the payoff is that somebody will call him racist, which then becomes, see, I must be doing something well.
[499] You know, right?
[500] As Kerry Lake pointed out, you know, that, you know, if you're not being called a racist or a fascist, you're not doing it right.
[501] So, I mean, here's the thing, though, about daily commentary.
[502] And you and I both know this.
[503] In this environment, choosing what to comment on and what not to comment on is triage, right?
[504] Because there's just so much.
[505] You have to pick just the biggest things.
[506] I mean, we've talked about, you know, the hurricane.
[507] We've talked about Russia.
[508] We've talked about the elections.
[509] There's just so much.
[510] And so this is why just take a moment, close your eyes and think, you're Ben Shapiro.
[511] There is this entire universe out there.
[512] You think that the world is really falling apart.
[513] There is carnage.
[514] People are dying.
[515] And you devote the entire segment to Lizzo playing James Madison's flute.
[516] And you're really upset about it.
[517] If I got upset over every little thing, I don't think that I would be able to move.
[518] You know what I'm saying?
[519] It's like it would be big bad.
[520] But he's convinced himself, but they've convinced themselves that this is the problem, right?
[521] Is that the culture has been taken over by black people and women and minorities and the old traditional classical music?
[522] Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's classical music.
[523] There's a race element to it, but there's also a cultural conservative, right?
[524] Like, we've lost the culture, and there are these few things left that we're holding on to, like classical music and flutes, right?
[525] Like the woke libs have taken over, you know, popular music and Disney and all these things, and we have this one thing that we're just holding on to so tight.
[526] know, our love of traditional, you know, the fact that our American fights that were played at the Revolution, and now they're trying to take that from us, too.
[527] I think that they've convinced, I do, I think that he's convinced himself that that is something to be upset about.
[528] It's insane.
[529] It's one of the top podcasts in America.
[530] People are listening to that and nodding along.
[531] That's deeply concerning about the state of affairs, but I think that that's what's happening.
[532] So we run through all the Disney movies to be outraged about.
[533] I mean, whatever happened with that?
[534] I mean, I thought they were sort of settling in.
[535] The girl, girl, buzz light, your kiss.
[536] The girl, girl, girl, buzz light, your kiss.
[537] That happened.
[538] Or the outrage about what the little mermaid, you know, might be black.
[539] Because, of course, as we all know, the little mermaid is white.
[540] How do you get pigmentation under the sea, Charlie?
[541] How do you get pigmentation under the sea?
[542] It doesn't even make sense.
[543] It doesn't even make sense, okay?
[544] It's just woke nonsense.
[545] I'm going to wake up.
[546] It's in the song, Under the Sea.
[547] Under the sea When you're way down there, how would you get a pigment?
[548] Okay, come on, let's just be honest here.
[549] I don't understand why it's why that view isn't just accept it.
[550] It's the libs that have gone crazy.
[551] It is interesting mentality going out there going, what will upset me today?
[552] What can I be outraged about?
[553] And what can I get my audience to be outraged about?
[554] Oh, wait, the Little Mermaid, the James Madison flute.
[555] Okay, speaking of...
[556] You should just play the strat.
[557] I just have one piece of advice to everybody.
[558] And this is, I think maybe there are some people who listen to this, which is like, if you find yourself getting mad about something like this, genuinely upset and stupid, like Ben, I think, needs to go out to the field, find some grass, sit in it, take the little Stradivarius that he plays.
[559] I guess he likes the viola or whatever.
[560] And just, you know, play some songs.
[561] Play some songs.
[562] Put the phone down.
[563] Just play some songs, find, find some inner piece of yoga.
[564] You know, whatever it is for you.
[565] Go to the beach.
[566] Everyone can just take a listen from Ben this weekend.
[567] Don't be Ben.
[568] Go out there this weekend, put the tone down.
[569] Touch some grass.
[570] So speaking of American Carnage, I understand you have some thoughts about Jeffrey Dahmer?
[571] I do.
[572] As I mentioned to you, I actually lived through being here in Milwaukee, and I was always on the, I mean, I lived through that on a daily basis.
[573] It was all -consuming here in Milwaukee, and I just, I can't bring myself to even comment on it because I still like I guess to suffer from a little bit of PTSD because I spent so much time on it at the time got to know one of the cops involved I can remember almost every single detail of it so but now there's a movie because we just need to revisit Jeffrey Dahmer I'm not quite sure why but your thoughts yeah I think the point of why I guess I don't and I don't know if I agree with this but the the justification the rationalization from the from the artist of this it's a series it's a limited series on netflix i wish it was a movie because i wish i could be done with it i'm only through two episodes and i'm so upset and so enraged and i have it cost me sleep last night which is why i have to bring it up before we leave the podcast today but um uh it was that like they were kind of centering the stories of the victims which is that there's not nothing to that like i really didn't know who the victims were and and so it's kind of like you know we're going to retell this guy's story but also like really focus on the people that he ate um which uh okay i guess maybe if they're family's one of that.
[574] I really don't know.
[575] It's hard for me to put myself in the mindset of somebody whose family member was eaten by Jeffrey Dahmer.
[576] But I just, so I was a child, right?
[577] So I have a totally different experience with this than you.
[578] Like you lived every minute of it.
[579] You're on the radio.
[580] I was a child when this happened.
[581] And so for some reason, like in my mind's eye, I'd never gone back and read the Jeffrey Dahmer's stories.
[582] I knew the basics.
[583] But I thought he was like a guy, I thought it was one of these like three, one percenter guys.
[584] It was like living out in rural Wisconsin, like in a, you know what I mean?
[585] Yeah, like in a, you know, some sort of log cabin far away from people.
[586] And then he'd kidnap people and bring up.
[587] I don't know why I thought that.
[588] But that's what I, you know, it was, again, I just, I was a kid when this was on the news.
[589] I don't think my parents were like making me follow the details of this moment by a moment, probably for, you know, mental health purposes.
[590] And so when I'm watching this last night, I got through two episodes.
[591] And I'm so angry.
[592] It's, it was, it is just, it's reminiscent of all these other things that you, I feel like every time I watch one of these limited series or go back and watch a documentary, I'm like, this could have been stopped so much earlier.
[593] It should have been stopped so much earlier.
[594] It is just unbelievable, he's in this tenement.
[595] You know, there's a woman that is his neighbor that they played the audio of the actual audio in the second episode of, I believe it's a second victim.
[596] So it's very early in the process of the woman next door calling.
[597] the police and uh and and just being like i i what's happening the kid that is next door as a child like something very weird is happening with this child and they're like no they're just gay and they're just lovers or whatever and she's like no i don't think so yeah and and so i just like i'm watching this and it just fills me with with just absolute rage and um and and and so i don't know how this one i wanted to bring it up for you because you you know knew the cops and all this and And I, you know, you don't know how much, I haven't gone back and read all the Wikipedia's, but it just seems like an utterly unbelievable ball drop, you know, I don't know, maybe like Yuvaldi level, but like by his dad, who should have known by the cop, you know, by the people that was reported.
[598] Like the smell is in this building, but it's in a crack house so people don't go in there.
[599] You know, anyway, I don't know.
[600] It just fills me with rage.
[601] And then the gay angle maybe makes feel a little more personal, like these poor, like closeted boys that are getting pulled back.
[602] Anyway, if you haven't watched yet, I just don't know if I can recommend it because my blood pressure was skyrocketing last night.
[603] brutal indifference to the refugees.
[604] And I have to say that it becomes much, much more powerful than it would have been, say, 10 years ago to feel all of the echoes and to hear the rhetoric with which, you know, American politicians and talk radio hosts used to justify not allowing, you know, Jewish asylum seekers into the country to hear the echoes of what's going on right now.
[605] And Ken Burns, by the way, is, you know, but was very, very clear that he, understood what he was doing to you know we doesn't have to be explicit about it because we all recognize all the things that are going on but the story of and and again you know this is one thing that that i knew about in in the past i'm guessing it's new to a lot of people the story of the st louis the ship of more than 900 jews who left hamburg seeking you know to get away from the holocaust and they show up in cuba they show up in the united states and they were turned away and they were sent back.
[606] They pleaded.
[607] We knew.
[608] I mean, you know, we knew the New York Times, you know, called it the saddest ship afloat.
[609] And yet we sent them back and hundreds of them were killed by the Nazis.
[610] And this was something that it wasn't that we were ignorant of it, is that America decided that we were not going to take refugees.
[611] We were not going to treat asylum seekers with humanity.
[612] And it just feels so relevant at the moment.
[613] Oh, my gosh.
[614] I know.
[615] I was reading your thing, and it's so painful.
[616] And I was reading yesterday, I know we're going long show here.
[617] But in the triad yesterday, which is the afternoon newsletter for Bullark.
[618] Plus, you'll JVL link to this story, this is in, I think, New York Magazine, the story of an anonymous, one of the fun Venezuelans that came.
[619] And he just read the story, and this person walked from Venezuela, essentially, right?
[620] Or thumbed it, you know, got in some cars.
[621] But a big portion of the trip from Venezuela was on foot, gets to the border, you know, is full.
[622] fleeing communism, comes across, is like being fed meals to survive for a few days while he awaits, you know, obviously with this backlog of court dates.
[623] He gets a court date in Philadelphia.
[624] How's he supposed to get there?
[625] He's across the border.
[626] And then he gets tricked by, you know, Ron DeSantis's goons and sent to on the Martha's Vineyard's thing.
[627] I was just watching this and just thinking of just how horrible this of the echoes of the St. incident you're talking about, but also of just how intractable this problem is, right, which is just like, how could we, even if we wanted to lessen this like desire of people to come here, if someone is going to walk from Venezuela, you know, because he feared death, couldn't feed family, living in communism, you know, obviously there are things that we have to do to manage what's happening on the border, but you just read that story and think, like, we don't have any choice but to try to figure out, At least I feel like we don't have any choice, but to try to figure out how to manage this in a way that gives some of these people a chance.
[628] But anyway, you know, I didn't include it in my article, which you can read again, reliving assorted chapter in American history.
[629] If you're a subscriber, you've got it in your mailbox.
[630] If you're a reader of the bulwark, it's still below the fold here.
[631] But, you know, talking about how we had closed the doors to all of the asylum seekers and turned away, you know, the hundreds of refugees.
[632] on the St. Louis, as horrible as that was, what I didn't include, well, at least we didn't have isolationist politicians turning those asylum seekers into a joke.
[633] They didn't use them.
[634] They didn't lie to them.
[635] They didn't use them for, you know, what would have been a 1939 photo op. They didn't treat them as some sort of a pawn in a political game, you know, as bad as and as sorted and appalling as what happened in the 1930s and 1940s was, compare it to what we're doing right now and the fact that, you know, there's so much glee at, look, we've taken these asylum seekers and we've, you know, lied to them about, you know, where they're going to go and we put them on a plane and we drop them off in Martha's Vineyard.
[636] You know, imagine in 1939, you know, taking Jewish refugees from Hitler's Germany and treating them that way.
[637] So, I mean, it was awful.
[638] It is one of the worst stains on American history back then.
[639] And yet, compare it to where we're at right now.
[640] And we're not in a position to say, boy, what was wrong with those people?
[641] We are not, Charlie.
[642] We are not.
[643] Tim Miller, thank you for going along.
[644] I appreciate it very, very much.
[645] You have a great weekend.
[646] Hey, everybody.
[647] You all have a great weekend, too.
[648] See you next week, Charlie.
[649] The Bullwark podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio production by Jonathan Siri.
[650] I'm Charlie Sykes.
[651] Thank you for listening to today's bulwark podcast, and we'll be back tomorrow to do this all over again.