The Bulwark Podcast XX
[0] Hello and welcome to the Bullwark podcast.
[1] I'm your host, Tim Miller.
[2] I'm just so thrilled to be here with my old pal.
[3] Former Republican Congress is from Illinois.
[4] Jeb Bush, endorsie.
[5] Yeah.
[6] Endorser.
[7] Endorser.
[8] Endorser.
[9] I think probably mutual.
[10] Senior political commentator for CNN, founder of Country First, which backs pro -democracy candidates.
[11] You had a book called Renegade.
[12] You have a substack newsletter.
[13] You have a child.
[14] You're keeping busy, Kinsiger.
[15] Yeah, I'm trying.
[16] You know, it's when you're not in Congress, you've got plenty of time to do other things.
[17] like live life and enjoy life and you know enjoying life is important we talked about this the end of the podcast yesterday with bill crystal and i think that a key constituency for joe biden is people who just enjoy life yeah you know these are joe biden's core supporters yeah they just they're not angry they're not like looking for that upset for some violation of their rights or whatever you know they're just living a violation of the you know patriotic correctness right you know nobody offended then there wasn't a trans person giving them coffee this morning.
[18] They're not upset about that.
[19] Anyway, we'll get into all that.
[20] I meant to get to this yesterday and forgot, and you're the person to talk to it about.
[21] A couple of congressmen, a couple of mics, a couple of your former colleagues, Mike McCall and Mike Turner, current Republicans, they both indicated over the weekend that they think some of their colleagues have become susceptible to Russian propaganda and are advancing it.
[22] Let's just take a listen real quick.
[23] Let's turn to Ukraine, an issue that's important to you and your fellow Republicans, chairman, Michael McCall, who runs the Foreign Affairs Committee.
[24] Congressman McCall made a comment this week about what he says sounds like Russian propaganda from some conservative media and why it's so difficult to explain to Republican voters why supporting Ukraine is important.
[25] He told Julia Yafi, quote, I think Russian propaganda has made its way into the United States, unfortunately, and it's infected a good chunk of my party's base.
[26] He singled out primetime shows on conservative channels.
[27] Do you agree with them?
[28] And how big is this problem?
[29] Oh, it is absolutely true.
[30] We see directly coming from Russia attempts to mask communications that are anti -Ukraine and pro -Russia messages, some of which we even hear being uttered on the House floor.
[31] I mean, there are members of Congress today who still incorrectly say that this conflict between Russia and Ukraine is over NATO, which, of course, it is not.
[32] Just two Republican congressmen saying that, I think this would be front -page news.
[33] It's like, you have two Republican Congress that's like, my party, infected with Russian propaganda.
[34] Anyway, what's your take and all that?
[35] Well, I mean, let's look in a different world.
[36] This has just been like a non -enemy France, right?
[37] If they're like, yeah, French propaganda, government of France, people would be outraged.
[38] This is Russia.
[39] This isn't just some, you know, country that we're agnostic about.
[40] This is one of our enemies.
[41] Look, they're both right.
[42] Obviously, they're both right.
[43] But here's what really kind of drives me nuts about that, Tim.
[44] Yes, they're both right.
[45] they're also both going along with the Russian propaganda in the party.
[46] It's saying, yes, okay, Tim, I'm going to come in front of you because you have an audience that will react well to this, which is what he did on CNN.
[47] Yes, Russian propaganda is infecting, and people are going to praise me for saying that and pray.
[48] But then he goes back today, both of these mics will go back today to Washington, D .C., and not pull the trigger on forcing this bill to the floor.
[49] Now, maybe they will eventually, but it's been six months of them listening to Russian propaganda.
[50] And these aren't just two rank and file Republicans.
[51] These are the two Republicans that are head of the most powerful committees dealing with this issue, foreign affairs, and Intel.
[52] And yet, they'll go on CNN and say it.
[53] And again, I don't want to discourage that.
[54] So I'm not sitting here just like crapping all over.
[55] But it's like, at the same time, you two alone.
[56] Consider newsmax.
[57] Yeah, you go to newsmax.
[58] Go to Fox.
[59] Put out a tweet.
[60] You two alone without anybody else with you can guarantee that the Aidville gets on the floor.
[61] And yet again, it's this go to the correct news outlet where you can say the things because nobody on your Fox outlet is going to be watching CNN and then just go quiet and let Marjorie Taylor Green run the day.
[62] That's what drives me nuts because this isn't just a exercise in what are our tax rates going to be you know are the train's going to run on time this is human life and it just drives me nuts this is the thing that that is kind of related to your point right but it's like if you've accepted the premise if you've accepted the premise that the reason why the aid isn't going to Ukraine is because Russian propaganda has infected your party then there's like a natural response that should follow on to that premise right that that I should do something to combat this.
[63] I should maybe work with the Democrats.
[64] I should use some procedural maneuvers.
[65] I should confront the propaganda.
[66] Right.
[67] But it's like they think that that's the end.
[68] Right.
[69] Like they acknowledge that this is happening.
[70] That's bad.
[71] But now I don't have to do anything about it.
[72] It's not my responsibility.
[73] It's like my body is riddled with cancer.
[74] Do you want to go to one?
[75] Right.
[76] Like how about no, how about we take you to the hospital.
[77] Right.
[78] So that you can figure out how to get rid of this.
[79] right it's like chemo is called for over on newsmax yeah oh i've never had chemo but like chemo isn't fun everybody i know that's had it it's brutal just like taking on russian propaganda and infection in your party but it's like the two guys like mike turner and mike mccall are the most respected on foreign policy left in the congress and they'll go on tv and say russian propaganda's infected our party but boy i'm endorsing Donald trump for 2024 because you know, make America great again.
[80] Do you see these guys in the CNN Green Room, not your CNN, you know, like the remaining normals?
[81] Like, are they mad at you because you say this sort of stuff?
[82] Or do they, are they whispering, hey, I'm with you.
[83] Keep going.
[84] Like, what kind of, what are you getting from them?
[85] So it's like, it's funny.
[86] I stay in touch with a lot of people, you know, and they're still polite.
[87] I try to put myself on the other end, which is like, when I was in Congress, if there was somebody that was kind of critical of what we were doing, what I hate them.
[88] And the answer is, no. because I'm like, I probably would agree with them, you know, in a large part.
[89] So most of these folks, yeah, I stay in touch with.
[90] I mean, there's a few that I have, have no contact with.
[91] Mike Gallagher is one of those because, you know, he was a huge disappointment on impeachment.
[92] And I heard your discussion about his early retirement.
[93] And I agree.
[94] I mean, Mike Gallagher should be the one right now on the floor of the House of Representatives shutting the floor down, for God sakes.
[95] He's leaving.
[96] He's got nothing better do.
[97] He's got 10 days.
[98] 10 days left.
[99] Might as well do something.
[100] Ian, he's not going to run for office again, obviously, retiring this early.
[101] And so, but I stay in touch with most of them.
[102] Look, I get it from their perspective.
[103] I don't agree.
[104] I understand how hard it is to speak out.
[105] But like, for God sakes, this is just such a moment in history.
[106] And I'm not saying this is like just to make a good podcast.
[107] Like, I really believe, like in my lifetime, this is the most important thing that we have ever dealt with.
[108] Did this being the Ukraine -Russia war or this the democratic threat or the whole, whole kit and caboodle.
[109] I think it's all of it.
[110] But I guess in this context, it's Ukraine.
[111] It's the Russian interference.
[112] It's the division in the country.
[113] It's like the most important moment.
[114] And like these guys could get statues in Kiev built to them.
[115] They literally could get, you know, Mike McCall Avenue in downtown Kiev.
[116] And they just can't do it.
[117] Let's talk about what that looks like.
[118] So, you know, you're talking about how maybe Gallagher could be shutting down the floor.
[119] There are a lot of procedural, this is really more of my husband's turf than mine, once you give into kind of what has happened and the procedure on the Capitol Hill and the arcana of how to, you know, get bills moved to the floor.
[120] I was never a hill man, but you were over there.
[121] So, like, talk about what some of those options are.
[122] To me, as an insider outsider, right, as somebody who knows Washington but doesn't know the hill stuff, I'm like, why are these guys getting circles run around them by Matt Gates and Marjorie Taylor Green?
[123] Like, it doesn't seem like it's that hard to exert your will if morons like Marjorie Taylor Green can do it, you know?
[124] So, like, what could they do?
[125] Why aren't they doing it?
[126] I can get long -winded on this, so if I am, just give me a signal, right?
[127] Okay.
[128] Yeah, all right.
[129] Here's the thing.
[130] When you go to Congress, the first thing they tell you is, you know, on procedural votes.
[131] Now, procedural votes are things like rules.
[132] Rules, you have to vote on a rule before any bill or any action on the floor happens.
[133] So it's basically the House saying, okay, here's how many minutes of debate, et cetera, et cetera.
[134] Okay.
[135] So anytime there's a bill that comes on the floor, there has to be a rule vote.
[136] before the bill vote before any amendments before any motion before the discussions yep and so that's one thing then you have other stuff which i won't go into called like motions to recommit whatever all that is called procedural votes okay what it means it's just governance procedure when you go to congress your party says look we all have to vote together on these issues and that was the agreement like you can disagree with the bill but you got to support your party on the four rules the freedom caucus is the ones that violated that really for the first time, at least in modern history, where they now will vote against rules.
[137] And what that does is it can shut down the floor from doing anything.
[138] So imagine being in D .C. for two weeks.
[139] And now you have a group of people saying the floor can do nothing, including even really come into session.
[140] So that's why they have such power.
[141] So if there's a group of 10 of us sitting in a room and I hand everybody a hand grenade.
[142] So just really quick, before you get to a hand grenade analogy for the laymen out there, So when people hear that Mike Johnson isn't bringing something to the floor, part of that is the speaker's discretion.
[143] But part of that is because there's a group of people that are like, no, we're not going to let you bring it to the floor.
[144] Because we'll vote down the rule, right?
[145] Right.
[146] That's essentially how it's going.
[147] They'll like, we'll vote down the rule.
[148] And you'll see that in some of the like kind of, you know, keep the government open stuff.
[149] Yeah.
[150] Or they'll, as you see right now, softly threaten him with a motion to vacate.
[151] And he doesn't want to get vacated.
[152] And so that's why he's kind of paralyzed.
[153] And I think he is paralyzed.
[154] right now, I'd be honest with you.
[155] But if you put 10 people in a room, I give everybody a hand grenade, we all have the equal amount of power, right?
[156] None of us will want to pull the pin on that hand grenade.
[157] But if there is a psycho in that room that wants to all of a sudden pull the pen on that hand grenade, they become the most powerful person, even though we all have the same tools.
[158] And that's what you've seen in the Freedom Club.
[159] I call them the Freedom Club, because it's like, there's nothing serious about them.
[160] They're not a caucus.
[161] They haven't earned the right to be a caucus.
[162] No, no, no. You got to be a respectable American for that.
[163] But they are willing to pull the pen on the hand grenade.
[164] And the problem is, like, until you call their bluff and one of the 10 pulls the hand grenade, until you're willing to be like, all right, I can play this game too and see if they're very serious, they're always going to be the most powerful person.
[165] So that's the moment with the Ukraine stuff right now.
[166] You have discharge petitions, which I can get into if you're curious, but neither of those are going to pass.
[167] what can really happen to compel this is if just two, maybe it takes three, it depends how many are in D .C. that day, sane Republicans go to the Speaker of the House and say, we, like the Freedom Caucus does, we will vote against every rule with the Democrats that comes to the floor until you agree to put the aid package on the floor for an up or down vote.
[168] He would be forced to do that, by the way, because now he couldn't, nothing could happen on the floor.
[169] And it would actually give Speaker Johnson cover to get this done because he'd be like, I have to guys.
[170] But nobody's got the courage to do it.
[171] I don't get it.
[172] If I was still in D .C. Tim, this is the one thing I would be doing is voting against every rule.
[173] I would be staying in D .C. I would be on every microphone, which I'm good at, and just be like, I'm going to shut down the floor until they put this on the floor.
[174] Help me understand the psychology.
[175] And, you know, we don't have to rake our friend Mike Gallagrove with Coles anymore than we already have.
[176] But it was just like, I really don't understand why.
[177] Oh, I do.
[178] I would understand it if they were trying to do political survival, right?
[179] But a handful of people have quit.
[180] Like, enough people to do what you're asking for have quit, have quit.
[181] That like, they could have just done this rather than quit.
[182] Yep.
[183] So why?
[184] Is it?
[185] You want to know the reason?
[186] Yeah, please, explain.
[187] Financial.
[188] I won't go into details.
[189] But in my case, I've talked to people about some like kind of post -c Congress stuff.
[190] And it's like, well, wait until we see if Donald Trump wins.
[191] and then come and talk.
[192] Because if he wins, you're going to piss him off and we don't want you involved, right?
[193] And it's like, I get that in a way.
[194] These guys aren't going to return your call.
[195] Right.
[196] You know, if I'm Raytheon and I want to hire Adam Kinsinger, it's like, well, actually, maybe I shouldn't hire him.
[197] I should maybe hire Mike Gallagher because, like, all Republicans will return his call still because he wasn't the turd in the punch bowl.
[198] And that's the key.
[199] Now, the rumor is Gallagher is going to Palantir, right?
[200] He's probably going to be Palantir's guy in the Hill, make a ton of money.
[201] he can't piss anybody off.
[202] That's what this all is.
[203] That sounds like a prison.
[204] It doesn't sound that great to me, actually.
[205] That sounds like a rich prison.
[206] It is a rich prison.
[207] It is because at this moment, I guarantee you, and again, we're picking on Mike, but there's so many people that this falls under.
[208] Yeah, there are a million examples of this.
[209] It's just that like he's, he's when we expect the most of it.
[210] Yeah, he is.
[211] Like, we can pick on Ken Buck if we want, but like he was a Tea Party guy from Greeley, you know, anyway, like Mike Gallagher was the great hope for our people, you know, so we're disappointed.
[212] Yeah.
[213] That's why we pick up.
[214] kind of yeah and so you know it's that and it's like well look okay so now in the last three weeks of congress i'm going to make sure i get everybody's cell phone in there on the floor which he's doing i guarantee and i need to make sure i don't tick everybody off because like i get it he's out in three weeks right but again that's what you have i think i've told you to him probably offline i'm like i think people fear more than they fear death they fear being kicked out of the tribe because that's like a social circle.
[215] You and I have both experienced that.
[216] It sucks, right?
[217] Right.
[218] You know, that's like your identity.
[219] On top of that, you fear losing any economic opportunity.
[220] And I think a lot of this is what it has to do with, to be honest with you.
[221] To me, it seems like the Wall Street Journal has lost their mind, but I want to be open to trying to understand their argument.
[222] The Wall Street Journal editorial board yesterday had a headline that made me think it might be opposite day.
[223] It said, Mike Johnson's Ukraine moment, colon, the House speaker is stepping up, but Biden needs to help get Democratic votes.
[224] Now, to me, it's like, I, the Democrats have already passed Ukraine aid and the Democrats seem to want Ukraine aid.
[225] I assume what they're talking about, there's this discharge petition that the Democrats should be going on with some different type of, what the fuck are they talking about?
[226] Help me understand what they're talking about.
[227] I think it's two things.
[228] There's two discharge petitions, which Mike Fitzpatrick, you know, has one that's like basically with Remain in Mexico and all the immigration stuff.
[229] he's got 18 signatures on that.
[230] Not even the Republicans are signing on to that, which is weird.
[231] And then there's the discharge petition, which, by the way, these are rarely done.
[232] The last successful one I was involved in was in 2015.
[233] The last successful one before that was 2000.
[234] So this is how rare these things are.
[235] The other discharge petition is like just the straight up Senate bill.
[236] So I think what the Wall Street Journal is saying is like Mike Johnson stepping up because he's made statements like, oh, I want to pass Ukraine with this like kind of hardcore border bill border security bill and so they're like democrats have got to come over on this look i think the borders messed up and i actually think that they need to do quite a bit more on border security but republicans in my mind have lost any moral authority on that because they turned down the one compromise they got that was actually pretty decent you know done by lankford they've lost all authority so i think that wall street journal is trying desperately to turn this against the Democrats.
[237] I will say, though, I don't know why Joe Biden and his team are not out there every day hammering the Republicans on Ukraine, every day.
[238] And I've got to tell you, everybody's like, how does Joe Biden win the 20 % Nikki Haley voters?
[239] It's really simple.
[240] Fight and win Ukraine.
[241] Okay.
[242] I want to get back to the political side of this, but let's just on the policy first.
[243] Is to answer that that Biden's, you know, playing a little bit of poker here.
[244] He's got this cards close to his chest and it's like, well, if I get out there and start doing this, that's going to make it harder on these people, the McCalls of the world.
[245] I don't even know if I agree with that, but I think that's their theory of the case.
[246] Yeah, I don't really actually think so.
[247] I think, you know, look, he went hard during the State of the Union, right?
[248] And that would be the time when you would want to throttle back a little if, if you were worried about that.
[249] Honestly, the overused term now, Occam's Razor is.
[250] Is Occam's Razor is?
[251] Is Occam's Razor now?
[252] I got to, find a new theory.
[253] I think so.
[254] And they'd get chastised at a dinner recently for using Occam's Razor.
[255] And like what was the other one, Overton window?
[256] Yeah, the Overton window.
[257] But I like, I like that one still.
[258] That's still in vogue.
[259] But anyway, so Occam's Razor in my mind is, I think there are still elements of the National Security Council.
[260] It may not be Joe Biden himself that are worried about escalation.
[261] There's this escalation fear in Russia.
[262] And they want to see Russia, not when, but they're fearful of what happens if Russia loses.
[263] And I think that's the concern.
[264] And it's kind of like, we don't want to own Ukraine.
[265] If we get out there too much in front and Ukraine loses, then we own it.
[266] Well, if Ukraine loses, you own it.
[267] Like, I hate to tell you, that's just, that's just a fact.
[268] Maybe this is what's happening.
[269] But to me, the Occam's Razor, we'll just Occam's Razor back and forth at each other.
[270] What's the most obvious answer here?
[271] Yeah, let's do it.
[272] Here's to me what the most obvious answer is.
[273] The Democrats want this.
[274] They've been willing to sacrifice things that, you know, create problems with their own base for this on immigration, as you mentioned.
[275] They've passed it.
[276] They're not even really playing hardball.
[277] It's not like they're forcing the Republicans to be like, oh, we'll only go along if you do this.
[278] To me, the simplest answer is they want this.
[279] The Republicans are bumbling it.
[280] Like one of Joe Biden's strengths is not the bully pulpit.
[281] And so he's like not using it.
[282] So the Democrats are just kind of like, well, let's let the Republicans like fumble at their dicks for a while and we'll just sit here.
[283] We wish we could have the money for Ukraine, but we don't know what else to do because it's their fault.
[284] And so we're just going to sit here.
[285] wait and watch their little shit show.
[286] To me, I think that's what's happening.
[287] Yeah, and I think we kind of agree on that.
[288] Like, I do think that's what's going on.
[289] You know, my criticism is, as you said, Joe Biden's not the best bully pulpiter.
[290] And I think he needs to be in this case.
[291] I think his, even if it's not him, his team needs to be in this case.
[292] Because I actually think, I think this is an issue you can beat Republicans on.
[293] I think you can beat them in the election on it.
[294] Because I do think Haley's voters, for as we talk about Haley's voters, it's 20 % of the Republican electorate, they all, night.
[295] 99 % of them, it's probably in their top two or three phase.
[296] So I think it's important to get out there.
[297] Just on the policy of this, I am curious, your perspective, you know, haven't been a congressman, having served, looking at the Biden team right now, there are people that are like one little baby step to the right of you, or maybe not even to the right, but to the MAGA of you, like one step more MAGA curious.
[298] They're like, you're not mega curious at all.
[299] And they like don't like MAGA, but they're a little curious, right?
[300] So you you know the type of person I'm talking about in the Wall Street Journal world.
[301] They've delved into, they've experimented with Maya.
[302] Yeah, they're dipping their toe in a little bit, seeing out, seeing how warm it feels.
[303] If you ask them about the Haley donor class and the Wall Street Journal Times and the McCalls, this world, about the Biden foreign policy, like they'll say, well, you know, I don't know.
[304] He hasn't been doing enough on Ukraine.
[305] He's been being a little too mean to BB, and it might make me vote for Trump.
[306] I assume that you're like kind of sympathetic to their foreign policy critiques of Biden.
[307] So I'm curious how you grade Biden on foreign policy and then how you compare that to Trump, just just purely on the policy merits.
[308] I'm sympathetic in that like I think Biden has a weak foreign policy, right?
[309] I think so.
[310] But I think the choice is weak versus evil.
[311] And I'll take weak any day.
[312] You know, the thing is, is like the Houthis, I'm kind of like, huh, Israel, I get it.
[313] Okay.
[314] This is a tough.
[315] you're like, we should be bombing the Houthis more?
[316] That's what you're at?
[317] Yeah.
[318] I mean, it's like, what was it?
[319] They just came out the other day that we offered to take them yet again off the terrorist list if they quit attacking in the Red Sea.
[320] I mean, I think it's...
[321] Let's send a few ICBMs into Houthi territory.
[322] That's where Kinsaker's at.
[323] See what happens.
[324] No, maybe a few more.
[325] We had Crystal on yesterday, Con, for a no -fly zone in Ukraine, and now you want some bomb the Houthis.
[326] I'm open to both.
[327] This is, this should be the place to have these discussions.
[328] Let's move that over to an window.
[329] I've been all for the Ukraine, no -fly zone.
[330] But anyway, so, you know, after those two Americans were killed in the Middle East, we bombed the living hell out of Iranian proxies.
[331] And it's gone quiet for two months.
[332] I think that's an important message.
[333] It's a fair point.
[334] On foreign policy, C plus, B minus, not terrible.
[335] Like, I - What's your Israel critique?
[336] I'd probably put it about a C. I mean, I understand the tough position he's in.
[337] And I mean, you look at Reagan in 1982.
[338] Reagan was no Israel, you know, yeah, he was no huge Israel star.
[339] But at the same time, I think it's important to keep in mind.
[340] You know, we destroyed, we flattened Mosul to defeat ISIS.
[341] The difference is the people of Mosul had a place to go.
[342] What's happening in Gaza, Egypt and Jordan will not let people in.
[343] That's the difference, right?
[344] The war is still being kind of handled the same way.
[345] Anyway, that said, this idea that Donald Trump was any good on foreign policy is garbage.
[346] He was the weakest president.
[347] He's evil and weak.
[348] You know, everybody will say to me, well, Russia never would have invaded Ukraine if Trump was president.
[349] Okay, maybe that's true.
[350] Maybe it's not.
[351] We have no way of knowing.
[352] But it wouldn't have been because they were scared of American response to an invasion.
[353] It's because he wouldn't have needed to invade because Vladimir Putin was getting everything he wanted anyway.
[354] Right.
[355] The only thing Trump did that was worth praising, and it is worth praising, is killing Soleimani.
[356] That was Mike Pompeo's decision, but guess what?
[357] Trump gets credit for that, and the Democrats get a bat on him because they were screaming about World War III.
[358] Remember when they shot down that giant drone that was $300 million and we did nothing?
[359] Remember when they hit the Saudi oil field and we did nothing?
[360] Remember when they bombed U .S. troops and we did nothing?
[361] Remember when Donald Trump stood by Vladimir Putin and said he believes him over his own intelligence agencies?
[362] I was in the Oval Office with Donald Trump when he said that President she asked him for a little favor and could we do it, which was to take Chinese telecom ZTE out of the sanctions list because he asked him a personal favor, ZTE, which is spying on the United States.
[363] Donald Trump was the worst, Tim, the worst foreign policy president, not even about his personality, about his just actions.
[364] And this is what concerns me is there's this like blessed memory of Donald Trump's foreign policy and economic policy.
[365] He was a friggin' disaster.
[366] a great rant.
[367] And I'll add to it.
[368] I'm reading David Sanger's books.
[369] We're going to have him on the pod, hopefully in the next few weeks.
[370] I had forgotten because it happened right before January 6th and it got washed away kind of in just the news craziness.
[371] Do you remember the solar winds attack, the cyber attack on the government?
[372] Yes.
[373] I forgot all about that.
[374] Yes.
[375] Me too.
[376] I'm reading the book and I was like, oh, right.
[377] Russia committed a cyber attack on our government, a very serious one.
[378] Very.
[379] Where we lost a lot of government workers, private information, a high level cyber attack, not one of these like random ones that penetrated the federal government, Trump puts out a tweet that's like, ah, maybe it's the Chinese.
[380] The fake news always say Russia, Russia, Russia, right?
[381] It's like Trump is doing propaganda for the people that literally are attacking our government.
[382] And it just kind of got washed away because the next day the capital got stormed.
[383] So I don't know what's been declassified.
[384] I got the classified briefing of it.
[385] So I'll have to speak kind of high level.
[386] Solar Winds was not a one -time intrusion hack.
[387] This was an infection that at least at the time I was in, and then of course I got sidetracked to all the January 6th stuff, the government was talking about like guillions of dollars of damage to actual government infrastructure.
[388] I'm sure they've been going after it now.
[389] I'm glad you brought that up.
[390] I forgot all about that.
[391] And that was like made Edward Snowden look like a kitty cat type devastating stuff to the U .S. government.
[392] And Donald Trump, what does he do?
[393] Right.
[394] I mean, look, the Havana syndrome story that just came out.
[395] What is MAGA doing?
[396] They're calling it a ray.
[397] Oh, Russia has a ray gun.
[398] Sure.
[399] Yeah, you're always going after Russia.
[400] Russia is cooking the brains of American government workers with microwave directed microwave energy, which we've known for decades exists and can exist.
[401] So it's not a magic ray gun on a sci -fi film.
[402] And MAGA is out there defending Russia and pretending like we're making the whole thing up.
[403] Screw them, period.
[404] Neocon power hours over for now.
[405] Thank you.
[406] Do a little politic.
[407] You're in Texas now, right?
[408] I am, yeah.
[409] You're one of many people that have moved to Texas that are of your ilk, college -educated.
[410] You went to college, right?
[411] Yeah.
[412] What's your alma mater?
[413] Illinois State, baby.
[414] I was an Ivy Lager.
[415] Got straight seas.
[416] Illinois State.
[417] That used to have a Native American name and you switched, right?
[418] No, it didn't.
[419] Illinois did.
[420] That was the Illini, which it still does.
[421] They used to have a chief redbirds.
[422] I mean, look.
[423] The redbirds.
[424] I knew it was a red something I had read in my mind.
[425] maybe that's why I had Native American.
[426] Okay, what?
[427] Redbirds.
[428] All right, Illinois State Redbird.
[429] College educated.
[430] You've moved to Texas.
[431] I assume you're living in the suburbs or somewhere suburbish.
[432] Yeah.
[433] You know, probably voted for Mitt Romney and they're kind of like, whoa, I don't know what's happening here with the Republicans.
[434] And it's people like you that are kind of turning Texas a little bit.
[435] I'm not sure that like Texas, we're not like into swing state territory.
[436] I'm not, I'm not into delusional.
[437] This is why Texas, I think, will be closer than Florida.
[438] Yeah.
[439] this time people like you so you were talking about the nicky haley voter you're that's you yeah i'm just wondering how you assess how Biden is doing with that group and what advice you'd have the texas thing it's funny it we kind of moved here accidentally it was just kind of we came here after all the death threats and then moving across the country with a family is not easy and we really like the woodlands which is where we're at now in north houston and my wife let me buy a big plane if i stayed here so i was good with that so i had my own big plane now former fighter pilot I've since signed the Woodlands.
[440] Oh, yeah, that's good.
[441] That's good.
[442] Houston has good food there.
[443] Cool.
[444] You know, a lot of good ethnic food.
[445] Yeah.
[446] And it's close to the Houston airport, which is nice.
[447] And then the airport I keep the plane out.
[448] But Texas is obviously crazy.
[449] Like the Republican politics here is bet shittery.
[450] But I think there is still this kind of undercurrent.
[451] It'll be interesting to see how Colin Allred does in the Senate race because he's about as moderate of a Democrat as the Democrats have put up.
[452] You know, I've thought about like, is there room for conservative Democrats in Texas because if the Democrats play their game right, they would put up a conservative Democrat, you know, just like, you know, Republicans should be putting up liberal Republicans in Illinois.
[453] I think really, the longer we go into this election season, I have been a pessimist.
[454] I would put myself right in the middle ground now of pessimism and optimism because I'm watching Donald Trump's brain cook in front of the American people.
[455] Like Biden, you know, being slow and, you know, with Alzheimer's, which I don't think he has, but regardless, that's kind of cooked into the American people perception already.
[456] So all he can do, I think, with the exception of a trip down Air Force One is like improve that position, right?
[457] He improved it at the state of the union.
[458] You don't hear a lot of attacks on his mental state since then.
[459] Right.
[460] People kind of like, oh, okay.
[461] Donald Trump has a long way to go down.
[462] And I think he's determined you had, I forget it was you had on your podcast, was it David Frum that just said he has been determined to make this election all about himself.
[463] Yes.
[464] And that is going to damage him.
[465] So I think the state of the Haley voter, you know, the Kinsinger and Texas voter is, you know, we'll support obviously Joe Biden.
[466] I still think a good significant part of that Haley voter does go to Joe Biden, not happily.
[467] And I take a little issue with when, you know, we argue about should there be, like I'm glad no labels is not on the ticket.
[468] But I think there are certain voters and not a voter like me and not a voter like you that we do need to give permission to either abstain from the presidential line or vote third party because it's not everybody.
[469] This is why when we did Republican voters against Trump at 2020, we called it Republican voters against Trump, not Republican for Biden.
[470] Yeah.
[471] I was like the people that were in charge of it, me and Sarah and others and Mc Murphy, we were all for Biden, but we were like, look, some of the people that we can appeal to just won't be able to get there.
[472] And it's better to move them off than to do nothing.
[473] And I do agree with that.
[474] Yeah.
[475] And I think the best thing is to make the case.
[476] Like, look, you do have two choices.
[477] Again, like I said, it's somebody I don't agree with all their policies or pure evil.
[478] I'm going to go with the policies guy.
[479] Right.
[480] But if there's somebody that just can't, you know, whether it's abortion, whether it's whatever the issue is, they can't go to Biden, giving them permission and saying, look, your country did not present you choices that you like.
[481] It is your right to skip that line.
[482] that's at least half a win for us.
[483] And I think that's going to be important as long as we're not giving people an excuse to not vote for Biden.
[484] I don't want to presume, but you are preferring all red over Cruz also in that race?
[485] Oh, dude, I would rather jump in a pile of lava than vote for Ted Cruz.
[486] Okay.
[487] I would rather be nude on television like in a very embarrassing, so what I'd then vote for Ted Cruz.
[488] I don't know.
[489] That might get you some slides into your DMs.
[490] I know you're still newlywed, but you know.
[491] Maybe.
[492] I hear you, though.
[493] Okay, so let's give Colin Allred some advice together then, because you're there.
[494] Yeah.
[495] I had all right on before even announced a long time ago.
[496] He had George Bush in his district.
[497] I think he might be a Colin Allred voter.
[498] I was like, have you asked him for his vote?
[499] And he's like, no, I don't know, I don't want to put him in that place.
[500] But I was like, there are people out there that are pretty conservative that he could get because Ted Cruz has gone so far off the defense.
[501] Yeah.
[502] But he's got to signal him.
[503] He's got to give him a signal.
[504] He was a good moderate congressman.
[505] He worked across the aisle, et cetera.
[506] Like performatively speaking, I'd like to see some performative.
[507] efforts to reach out.
[508] And that part, I feel like he's been a little bit missing from his campaign.
[509] That'd be my one critique.
[510] But I don't know.
[511] What kind of advice would you have if Colin All right called you about women?
[512] It would be the same.
[513] I'd probably give to the Biden team right now, which is, you know, there should be no Republican on the sideline that says they haven't been contacted by you.
[514] Right.
[515] Chris Christie, unless something changed, still hasn't been contacted by the Biden team.
[516] I got contacted by somebody at the White House saying, hey, we'd love to be in touch.
[517] I'm like, great, let me know, heard nothing again, right?
[518] Like, it's fine.
[519] And my ego doesn't need that.
[520] That's the same advice I would give to Colin.
[521] He's reached out to me, and he and I are friends anyway.
[522] So I give him credit on that.
[523] But yeah, reach out to the Bush's, you know, Bush will stay on the sideline regardless, probably.
[524] But he can signal things quietly.
[525] And the other thing I'd give on a messaging is, sorry, you got to be somewhat tough on immigration.
[526] This is a 90 % issue, by the way.
[527] Be somewhat tough on immigration.
[528] Be somewhat.
[529] Just do what Swazzy did at least.
[530] do what Swazi did.
[531] And then be a, you know, be a little, a little giving on guns.
[532] You don't have to be a huge, like, gun nut, but just kind of like understanding the importance of concealed carry, stuff like that for Texas.
[533] And I think he has a shot to win, at least a shot, particularly depends what happens on the national side, but certainly a shot to really embarrass Ted Cruz, because Ted Cruz deserves every ounce of embarrassment he gets.
[534] Yeah, that's right.
[535] Tom Swazzy for people, those who ran that special election in New York and really kind of focused on crime and immigration and led with that.
[536] It was a strategy to talk about crime and immigration.
[537] It wasn't going far right, really, but it was just like, look, we need to deal with these threats in New York.
[538] Maybe crime isn't so much at that in Texas a little bit, but immigration really is, right?
[539] And then like lead with your chin a little bit and you kind of maybe distance from some people on the left on that.
[540] And can I say too, like to the people that like, and I hear them that say, oh, well, you're just basically asking us to become Republicans.
[541] No. I'm not.
[542] Uh -uh.
[543] All we're asking is that you listen to what the American people are saying.
[544] and actually reflect that and get elected.
[545] That's what democracy is.
[546] Like, parties were never meant to be in this static position that could never move.
[547] And as the American people move, they just moved in and out of parties.
[548] Parties are supposed to chase voters, right?
[549] That's like the general nature of a party system.
[550] Exactly.
[551] I wrote the article about Adam Kinsiger a long time ago, about the Red Dog Democrats.
[552] I don't know if he's accepted it.
[553] That people can go find it.
[554] We'll put it in the show notes.
[555] But in this article, I was like, there are a ton of progressive policies that Red Dog Democrats and the Dallas suburbs don't care about.
[556] Marijuana legalization, raising the minimum wage, infrastructure spending, universal pre -K, environmental conservation, I'm going down and down, criminal justice.
[557] They're a bunch.
[558] I dream act, right?
[559] There are a bunch of stuff, a bunch of progressive priorities you can do.
[560] It's just, you know, on a few things, you got to try to put an olive branch.
[561] That's right.
[562] Okay, we're running out of time.
[563] I want to do a quick RFK, and then we do need to talk about Donald Trump's smell.
[564] I want to listen to the New York, I think she was running the New York ballot act.
[565] operation for RFK really quick.
[566] Things, I guess, will change over time because you do have to only pick one candidate at the end of the day.
[567] But the Kennedy voter and the Trump voter, the enemy, our mutual enemy, is Biden.
[568] Since Biden is counting on us with Bobby in the mix, my thought is for the Republicans.
[569] See, Bobby right now, he's pulling from both sides.
[570] Right now he's actually pulling a little bit more from Biden, which explains why the DNC is kind of ganging up on him.
[571] They have a special committee to go after independent candidates.
[572] Yeah, they say independent candidates, like non -affiliated candidates, so it really mean Bobby.
[573] Because Bobby's the only third party that anybody's taking seriously.
[574] So they developed a committee just to go after him and to get him off of the ballot in any way they can.
[575] Especially, it seems as though they're going after the battleground states more than the deep blue states.
[576] Bobby's moving the blues on his own.
[577] If the Republicans accepted the fact that New York...
[578] I can't listen to this lady anymore.
[579] But she goes on to say that part of the strategy, which I think is insane, is that Bobby wins some blue states and that sends the election to the House.
[580] This is probably not going to happen.
[581] But really, they are saying the quiet part out loud about where they think things are on this.
[582] You know, some of these voters, particularly some of the types of people we're talking about, who are more conservative instinctually, more low info voters that aren't paying us close of attention, that aren't listening to the blog podcast.
[583] Like some of them, RFK might seem like an appealing off ramp.
[584] Like, oh, he's not.
[585] So what's your take on the RFK side of things and the nature of the threat there?
[586] First off to that lady, I don't know where I forgot her name, but like, thank you for telling the truth publicly because, you know, we need that, right?
[587] Tell the truth.
[588] You know, it's just what they found is that there is an audience of conspiracy nuts in MAGA that will fund their campaign.
[589] As I've said, the campaign's been hijacked by MAGA.
[590] And I think probably voluntarily because it's audience capture.
[591] You know this, this risk.
[592] in media, it's like, and in politics, it's, okay, well, here's our donor base.
[593] So now we need to feed the donor base.
[594] And then our donor base becomes more like what we've been feeding.
[595] And it's this kind of vicious circle.
[596] He's been feeding conspiracies, which now is naturally found on the right.
[597] It used to be found on the left.
[598] You know, the horseshoe theory has now officially happened.
[599] They've met.
[600] And so I look at it and I say, he's nuts.
[601] I think the bigger risk is certainly to Joe Biden with Kennedy, because Kennedy, of course, the name is a sion and Democratic politics, but I think Democrats are doing the right thing by continuing to talk about him and ridicule him because I think their biggest threat is that low information voter, as you mentioned, that doesn't like Joe Biden that thinks Kennedy is Kennedy and instead needs to see that he's basically Donald Trump.
[602] Now, he's not going to pull much from Trump because people that love Trump.
[603] He's like Donald Trump that believes in climate change.
[604] Yeah.
[605] And so if you want Donald Trump, vote for Trump.
[606] If you don't want him, then Kennedy should be off the table.
[607] And I think as the election gets closer, that'll become more obvious.
[608] I don't think he's going to have the poll of a, of a Ross Perrault.
[609] But at the same time, what one or two percent can make a difference this year, unfortunately.
[610] Yeah, big time.
[611] All right.
[612] So you've been the one person brave enough, not just to speak out about January 6 and to get those death threats, but to also speak out about Donald Trump's smell.
[613] One thing I've noticed, and we're trying to get at the bottom of what the smell is.
[614] I've noticed his tint, his face tint has changed.
[615] Like it was a pure orange mango for a while.
[616] while it moved to like a burnt sienna and lately it's kind of like it's like a pine tar yeah i mean it's getting very dark it's like i can't imagine that is helping the smell so give us tell us a little bit about about what you think that was is happening there well it's like it's old man and shame i mean it's like you know uh it's not i don't know if it's diaper if it's like just don't think it's the face that whatever he's could be the face could be the sweat The sweat mix with that.
[617] The sweat.
[618] Here's the important thing about this, Tim, is Maga sees Donald Trump.
[619] Now, we've got to put ourselves in this mind for a second as almost a non -human entity.
[620] And I'm serious about this.
[621] Like, everything about him is almost non -human.
[622] Like, honestly, if they saw him sitting on the toilet, it would shatter their image of him.
[623] I don't mean to say that to be funny.
[624] Did you see the eclipse ad they did of him?
[625] Or like Donald Trump is the blocking the sun.
[626] It is so weird.
[627] We'll put that on the show notes too.
[628] I wanted to just play the audio, but you can't really get it without looking.
[629] at it.
[630] It's so fucking weird.
[631] Yeah.
[632] It's like it's nuts, but like that's where they're at.
[633] So I think there is benefit in humiliating him both as just a human with failings, which we all are.
[634] And I don't say that to be, but like he's trying to put himself above that, but also the whineest, weakest.
[635] I mean, my God, the guy was president of the United States.
[636] And somehow the Annette Democratic Party was able to pull over on him the greatest steal of an election in American history, he's that week that he allowed it to happen and he just whines and he complains and he belly aches.
[637] And Tim, when you and I were junior Republican babies, what we loved about the Republican Party was its toughness.
[638] It's like self -reliance.
[639] Up from your bootstraps.
[640] Yeah.
[641] He has turned the Republican Party into a bunch of whiny, licking their wounds like people.
[642] And we have to call that out.
[643] because nobody wants to be that and Donald Trump needs to be painted as that, I think.
[644] That's what Country First is going to spend some time doing.
[645] Winy and smelly and like obese and not athletic and look at him on the golf cart.
[646] It's just, it's a disgusting, he's a disgusting figure.
[647] And he's scared.
[648] He's a scared person right now.
[649] You could just tell he's frightened, like a little kitty cat.
[650] He's scared.
[651] Eclin, do you ever see that image of him with the eagle?
[652] With the eagle goes to bite him.
[653] He's like, I love that one.
[654] I love that one.
[655] Okay.
[656] Adam Kinsinger, I, man, I just appreciate you so much.
[657] You're a great American.
[658] You'll be back in the podcast soon.
[659] Country First.
[660] Go ahead and check out his organization, Country First.
[661] We'll be back here tomorrow with another one of my favorite people.
[662] So we'll see you all then.
[663] Peace.
[664] This ain't Texas.
[665] Ain't no hold them.
[666] Don't be a bitch.
[667] Come take it to the flow now.
[668] There's a tornado.
[669] That shit ain't pretty.
[670] Sweet redemption passing time.
[671] Yeah.
[672] One step to the right.
[673] The Bullwark podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brett.