The Bulwark Podcast XX
[0] Welcome to the Bull Work Podcast.
[1] I'm Charlie Sykes.
[2] Happy Monday, and we are joined by our good friend, Congressman Adam Kinzinger, who made the big time this weekend.
[3] Adam, big time.
[4] You caught this, right?
[5] Some 13 -year -old impersonated me on Saturday Night Live.
[6] Okay, so in case anyone missed this, Adam Kinzinger was portrayed by a 13 -year -old, apparently, on Saturday Night Live, which managed not to pronounce your name correctly.
[7] but anyway, this is what they did.
[8] He got away with a lot of stuff in the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, the early 2000s, the 2010s, and the early 2020s.
[9] But that ends now with us, because I'm Mr. Kinsinger, and he will respect my authority.
[10] So I had three reactions to that.
[11] I laughed, and then I thought, actually, that's not really funny at all.
[12] And then I thought, fuck those guys.
[13] What did you think?
[14] I don't mind it.
[15] I mean, I don't know if the mispronunciation was supposed to be part of the joke.
[16] If he truly, I don't know.
[17] And I do think that whole, the joke that you played there, it's got a point, which is this dude's gotten away with stuff basically his whole life.
[18] And I thought it was kind of funny.
[19] But at the same time, it's like, I don't know.
[20] I hope that we can kind of put it into the, you know, hasn't gotten in trouble since 70s, 80s and 90s for sure.
[21] See, I wrestle with all of this because I do think that the only way you can maintain sanity in, you know, in these insane times is to keep a sense of humor.
[22] On the other hand, you know, at the other end of the spectrum, it's treating the world burning as kind of a joke.
[23] You know, you need to cope by, you know, keeping your wits about you.
[24] On the other hand, when you kind of look at all to say, hey, this is really funny, this guy's going to get away with this, he's going to tear down democracy and he's going to be the president again.
[25] Isn't that hilarious?
[26] I don't know.
[27] There's kind of something cringe -worthy about that.
[28] You know, I guess this is where I, in the one hand, you have to laugh because, you know, yeah, I mean, it's, they're trying to be funny.
[29] And I think, you know, part of the problem in politics is everybody loses their sense of humor.
[30] But I think we are in such a serious moment.
[31] I mean, whether it's, you know, the war in Ukraine, whether it's the, you know, the domestic extremists here, the people that want to, you know, basically make Donald Trump king forever.
[32] And, yeah, it feels like, you know, people are more interested in creating the next meme and, you know, getting 100 views on YouTube than they are in actually solving some of these problems.
[33] So you were on George Stephanopoulos' program over the weekend talking about the January 6th committee.
[34] And he asked you, you know, the obvious question, which is what happens next?
[35] So I'll ask you the same obvious question.
[36] What happens next?
[37] Are there going to be more hearings and when is the report going to come out?
[38] Yeah.
[39] So look, I think it's pretty safe to assume the report will be out probably sometime in December.
[40] This, you know, the committee from a, well, from a realistic perspective and but also we're mandated to end by the end of this Congress.
[41] And that's kind of part of the problem.
[42] We're up against a clock.
[43] And so yeah, I would expect that sometime in December that report comes out.
[44] If there are some leads we are still pursuing.
[45] But I think we all have to understand, you know, what we did on the committee, I think the whole reason there is a Department of Justice investigation right now is because of the work we've done.
[46] I think we have brought light to the problems, which is exactly what we're supposed to do, to show the American people where those vulnerabilities were, what happened, and come up with fixes and we're going to work on some of those.
[47] But now, look, the torch truly is past.
[48] It's passed now to DOJ from the criminal side and to the American people.
[49] Like you now, Congress can't, I mean, we've obviously gone about as much as we can do.
[50] Do you want somebody that's going to kind of repeat the things of the past?
[51] That's your decision to make America, and we've pushed that to you.
[52] So I think that's where the committee is.
[53] An obvious question is, what if the president of the United States and the subpoena doesn't come in?
[54] We'll cross that bridge when we get there.
[55] He keeps acting like he wants to come in.
[56] We'll deal with that.
[57] But we can't.
[58] Yeah, and I'll tell you what, Charlie.
[59] I heard somebody over the weekend, I think it was Smirkhanish say, well, it was dumb of them to, you know, to bring him in now.
[60] he should have been the very first person they talked to.
[61] And look, I maybe a year ago could have seen that point.
[62] And now that I'm kind of like a, you know, a crash course in prosecution, I look at this and I go, you can't bring in the guy that's the target of the investigation as the first witness because you have nothing to back that.
[63] You have nothing.
[64] He could lie to you and you have no way to call him out.
[65] So I think I think the problem is we're just up against the clock at the end of the year.
[66] Yeah.
[67] So what did you make of his 14 page response?
[68] I mean, I'm in the camp saying there's there's no. way he is ever going to testify.
[69] No way his lawyers are ever going to allow him to continue his lies under oath.
[70] That's not going to happen.
[71] But he did issue that 14 -page response.
[72] What did you make of that?
[73] So first off, I think I tend to agree with you that, you know, his lawyers are probably going to say no. I will repeat, though, it is the law that he shows up on the date we give him.
[74] So we'll leave it at that.
[75] But the 14 -page note, everything about Donald Trump, is like getting increasingly rambling and crazy.
[76] I mean, that's a thing.
[77] I don't, I mean, if you'd have taken some of the stuff he's saying now, you know, whether it's the Jews owe me, you know, this kind of stuff, nobody thanks me, you know, this 14 -page diatribe, even if you'd have gone, if you go back in time two years, and Donald Trump, if he'd have said that two years ago, people'd be like, whoa, he's gone off the deep end.
[78] I think we're like the frog boiling in the pot where it's just getting slowly more crazy and slowly more unhinged and mentally unwell, that it doesn't seem like anything's changed.
[79] That was nuts.
[80] And I think everything he does gets nutsier and longer.
[81] I think that's an excellent point.
[82] And also I was thinking about his tweet about the Jews, you know, better wise up before it's too late and the complete lack of any response.
[83] You look at that with any historical perspective of all of the years that folks on the right, including Bill Buckley, you know, spent pushing back against Andy.
[84] Semitism recognizing that any Semitism was a cancer on the right and the way that not that long ago that other Republicans would have said, okay, we don't want to be associated with that.
[85] And now it's like, it's just like a shrug.
[86] And you're right.
[87] This is like the boiling frog because all of this stuff is now being treated somehow like it's normal.
[88] Like the conventional wisdom just says, well, you're not going to get your undies in a bundle about this or anything, are you?
[89] You're not actually, this shouldn't really affect who you vote for or who.
[90] who you endorse because, right, this is the new normal.
[91] And inflation's high.
[92] Yeah, inflation's high.
[93] It's a big deal.
[94] But here's what I think drives me nuts about the media is they've gotten exhausted.
[95] So this thing comes out.
[96] You know, at some point, Kevin McCarthy is going to have, you know, access by media that's not just Fox News.
[97] And they're going to ask in theory, you know, like let's say he actually did, they would ask him this question.
[98] He would give some BS response.
[99] They know as BS.
[100] And then they'd move.
[101] And it's like, look, there are so many people that go out and say in their statements, Donald Trump is the leader of the Republican Party.
[102] Donald Trump is our leader.
[103] He's the leader of the Republican Party.
[104] You can't then turn around and ignore what he says because, oh, there's other issues and let's just move.
[105] No, he is the leader.
[106] If you want to say Donald Trump is not the leader of the Republican Party, then I think you have leverage to like move on to different issues.
[107] Until you're willing to say that, everything.
[108] he says you have to respond to.
[109] And the biggest failure in all this, besides, you know, each member of Congress that represents 700 ,000 people, 700 ,000 people that you have a responsibility for.
[110] But the biggest failures are people like Elise Stefanik, Kevin McCarthy, Steve Scalise, who do not have the courage in the face of potential power they can gain to simply lead people to the truth.
[111] And this is when you look back to, you know, I call it a pre -1939 moment, whether it's in the U .S., whether it's in Germany or anything else, it always seemed like whatever the worst -case scenario, there's no way it would ever happen.
[112] But it just took the silence of so many people to let that frog boil to the point where all of a sudden, you know, we were in a pretty bad way.
[113] Well, and one of the headlines in The New York Times this morning in their morning newsletter is Marjorie Taylor Green's success demonstrates Trumpism hold over the Republican Party.
[114] And the subject line in the email was Marjorie Taylor Green's comeback.
[115] And again, speaking of the boiling frog, this woman is completely nuts.
[116] She is unhinged.
[117] She has engaged in every sort of woolly conspiracy theory, every sort of bizarre, anti -Semitic protocols of the elders of Zion, Jewish space laser nuttiness.
[118] And yet she is, her star is in the ascendancy right now in the Republican Party, in the caucus of which you are still a member.
[119] And look, she's going to lead if, you know, Kevin actually becomes speaker.
[120] That's not the end of this fight.
[121] She's going to own him.
[122] She's going to grab him by every place and direct him exactly where she wants to direct him.
[123] And here's, I think here's a shortcoming that some of the media has in understanding this.
[124] I was raised a kind of in that, let's call it that apocalyptic kind of in -time evangelical thought, right?
[125] And I left it when I was in my 20s.
[126] But, you know, that idea that we were always on the edge of the New World Order, the UN was evil, the black helicopters.
[127] So what I have seen, and this is why I'm out there, haranguing pastors, frankly, and priests and spiritual leaders, there are members of Congress, and Marjorie Taylor Green's really good at this.
[128] And Donald Trump's kind of learned it.
[129] You see it really well with people like General Mike Flynn, where they use that apocalyptic kind of in -time's revelation language.
[130] in a way that if you're not in that thought, you don't understand it.
[131] If you're in that, you know exactly what they're saying.
[132] When there's a discussion about globalism, globalism isn't about an economic thought.
[133] It's not about the Jews even, quote unquote.
[134] It is all about this belief that in the end times, there will be a one world government, and that one world government is run by the Antichrist.
[135] So when they call you a globalist, Charlie, you are part of the Antichrist's future movement.
[136] And that's the problem is a lot of people don't understand that language, but it resonates with those base voters.
[137] That's right.
[138] That's right.
[139] And that's where pastors and priests and spiritual leaders have got to stand up from the pulpit and say, this is BS.
[140] Guys don't fall for it.
[141] So when you say this, what kind of feedback do you get?
[142] I mean, it depends.
[143] It's like if it's, you know, somebody like Russ Moore, right?
[144] He fully understands this.
[145] He's out there.
[146] He's the guy that's like admonishing pastors to do the same.
[147] You know, my pastors understand it.
[148] But if you say it kind of out there, you know, I'm sure if you look at some of the comments on this podcast or if I would tweet something like it, the problem is people look and say, yeah, that's what a globalist would say.
[149] That's what the Bilderbergs want you to say.
[150] I mean, you look at even things like I'm part of the global economic, I forget what it is, young Americans for Freedom thing or whatever.
[151] And that is now some new conspiracy that, you know, it's some globalist new world order thing.
[152] I mean, this is the kind of stuff where when I think when you watch people like Michael Flynn or the My Pillow guy or these kind of eccentric people, we'll call them, that are now mainstream, just listen to some of that language and know what they're saying.
[153] This, again, is this extraordinary phenomenon of watching people who've always been out there, but always been on the fringes now becoming part of the mainstream, and the mainstream either not being willing to push back against them or you use the word exhausted.
[154] And I do think that there's a certain level of exhaustion.
[155] you see that in the media, it's like, okay, we could report this again, but okay, this is what it is.
[156] Can we just get back to the horse race?
[157] So speaking of which, this is a slight digression, but I think you got a very interesting tweet this morning.
[158] Somebody who is writing from Keeve wrote, am I the, well, he says he's Jay and Keith, am I the only one that finds it incredible that the GOP, the party of Ronald Reagan, is now aligned with Iran and Russia?
[159] And you tweeted back, I've been in the middle of it, and I'm still, I'm blue, blown away at how quickly it happened.
[160] I have to say, so talk to me about that.
[161] It is, it has happened incredibly quickly, and it is really stunning for any of us who have any historical perspective on these issues.
[162] Yeah, it really is.
[163] So this, the guy is, his name is Jay and Keev on Twitter.
[164] I followed him for a while.
[165] He's, I think he's a reporter, and he just writes a lot of kind of interesting things.
[166] And so I wake up this morning and go through my usual kind of anti -Russia rant on Twitter and I see that and it hit me yeah I I am sitting here shocked the same as Jay and Keith is and I've been part of this so I look back Charlie I would say it was uh even even when Donald Trump was in office but kind of very early on it changed you had we had just Dana Roerbock that was it that was the only guy in the GOP that would have the the quote unquote courage or insanity to express any kind of Russian sympathy and I remember I would get into him, we'd get into yelling matches on the committee over, you know, Vladimir, Putin, and Russia.
[167] And I would, I would say to people.
[168] That was the one man pro Putin caucus.
[169] It was, that was it.
[170] That was it.
[171] Yeah.
[172] Yeah.
[173] And you had your Tulsi Gabbard once Assad started liquidating people with chemical weapons.
[174] She liked him for some reason.
[175] But to watch go from one guy who, by all objective purposes, was a little nuts.
[176] And I liked Dana personally, but he was nuts on policy to now, I mean, I have real worries.
[177] So right now, until the end of December, I think Congress will still be very supportive of Ukraine, right?
[178] We've passed more money.
[179] What I worry about is when probably the Republicans take control of the House of Representatives.
[180] And let's say it's a five or ten vote majority.
[181] There's certainly enough people that love Vladimir Putin or still are buying into this whole Ukraine is corrupt.
[182] By the way, if you think Ukraine's corrupt, look at Russia for God's sakes, you know, that I think can slow up any budget help for Ukraine and can simply go on Tucker Carlson every night and make up stories about 18 chemical labs in Ukraine that's just completely untrue and you can't push back against it.
[183] You can tweet that there's no Kim Labs.
[184] I can even go on Tucker and say there's no Kim Labs, but if you want to believe Tucker that there's chemical labs, you can.
[185] And that's what's happening.
[186] And a significant amount of Republicans are now pivoting to those talking points because it helps raise money.
[187] No, and they are pivoting.
[188] And even worse, I think, as a leading indicator is watching what's happening in right -wing media about this, where anti -Ukraine sediment is spreading, and it's more and more aggressive.
[189] And you even have now the latest heartthrob of the right, Elon Musk, who's really pushing appeasement of Russia.
[190] And so you can see exactly where the momentum is on the right.
[191] And again, it is, you have to be blown away by how quickly into the moment.
[192] decisively it's happened.
[193] Can I add something else to?
[194] Sure, please.
[195] Let's take even away from the Russia issue.
[196] Because I think, you know, I don't, I mean, that's very important.
[197] But let's broaden this.
[198] When did the Republican Party become the party of victims?
[199] I mean, look, everything, Donald Trump, he's a victim.
[200] He is supposedly the most powerful man ever, if you talk to anybody that is a Trump fan.
[201] Yet he is the biggest victim of every single.
[202] circumstance.
[203] He can't even take on the deep state, for God's sakes, and he's the president of the United States.
[204] When did we become victims?
[205] When did we become the party that would look and say Russia had to attack Ukraine because whatever asinine reason?
[206] You know, when did we become, as I've heard you say, the blame America first crowd?
[207] I mean, this is exactly what, you know, 15 years ago, I'd be so angry at watching the left, which is anything that happens, Iraq, Afghanistan, it's always the United States fault.
[208] That's exactly what the right has become now.
[209] It's blame America first for everything.
[210] And this idea that if we end up standing up to Russia, we're going to end up getting nuked to death because, gosh, we're all just helpless here.
[211] The United States military is the strongest military in the world.
[212] Let me tell you, Vladimir Putin is not going to use a nuke.
[213] If he does, there's a reason it's going to be a tactical because he wants to escalate to de -escalate.
[214] there's not going to be a massive nuclear exchange.
[215] And we used to remember as a country that when you pull out your sack, so to speak, nobody will stand up to the United States because they know when you say it, you mean it.
[216] We have become the party of blame America, of victims of helplessness.
[217] And what we're telling our kids is you are just a victim of your circumstances.
[218] I am so blown away that that is my party now.
[219] Well, it's also you think about how on the one hand, the right will say, we need to celebrate America, American exceptionalism.
[220] We are so wonderful.
[221] We need to teach American history about, you know, how we are this, you know, we are the beacon of freedom.
[222] We are still the shining city on the hill on the one hand.
[223] On the other hand, they've internalized the kind of what aboutism that we used to only see on the left, which is that, okay, well, you know, what about America?
[224] I mean, America has all of these faults.
[225] America is degenerate.
[226] America is depraised.
[227] America is depraised.
[228] Dave.
[229] You remember, Donald Trump was asked at one point, well, Vladimir Putin kills people.
[230] And he goes, well, you know, we kill a lot of people too.
[231] They sort of, you know, which is amazing.
[232] The other thing is, as you're pointing out, this runs deep.
[233] There's no question.
[234] I mean, this, this is not just Donald Trump.
[235] This runs deep on the right.
[236] It's going to, it will survive Donald Trump.
[237] But there's also something very specific about Donald Trump.
[238] You know, in a Trump 2 .0 presidency, you have to turn against Ukraine.
[239] because Donald Trump was the guy that tried to blackmail and extort Vlodymyr Zelensky.
[240] You can't on the same hand say, yes, Donald Trump, you know, a wonderful president of the United States, but also we have a moral obligation to support Ukraine when, in fact, Donald Trump is the guy that tried to squeeze Zelensky.
[241] So there is this tremendous now incentive to demonize Zelensky whenever possible, which I see all the time now on social media.
[242] I think you're right.
[243] And I think, look, he has this great ability.
[244] I give him credit to basically never, ever have been wrong.
[245] Anything that happens, you know, he has the luxury of having no actual moral center and no like guilt if he lies.
[246] So he can always say this would have been different.
[247] You know, remember the old thing, like Vladimir Putin would never have attacked if Trump was president, you know, bullshit.
[248] But secondarily, you know, and I don't know if I'm jumping ahead, but what I had brought out in the hearing about Afghanistan and the order that Donald Trump had actually signed.
[249] You know, these Trump loyalists go out saying, and by the way, I want to be very clear, I am extremely bitter at Joe Biden for how we left Afghanistan.
[250] I am equally bitter at Donald Trump for the setup.
[251] Everybody is wrong in this case.
[252] But these people, whether it's Mike Pompeo, who is now trying to remake himself again as a hawk and not the guy that went and negotiated a deal with the Taliban by, cutting out the Afghanistan government, FYI, and then we wonder why the Afghan government didn't stay.
[253] But what we showed, and the reason I showed this at the hearing was to say, you know, look, Donald Trump knew he lost.
[254] In fact, he was signing these terminal orders for Somalia and Afghanistan.
[255] Well, let's take that part aside.
[256] And just the fact, Johnny McAtee, who's a clown, went into Donald Trump's office.
[257] Donald Trump said, I want all the troops out of Afghanistan by the time I am out of the presidency.
[258] Do not sit here and tell me Trump lovers that Donald Trump would have done anything different than Joe Biden because the only thing I've seen from Donald Trump is he'd have pulled out even quicker, even worse, and you would have had more Afghans left behind because he demanded they be out immediately.
[259] So let's get past this notion that somehow Donald Trump is tough.
[260] He is not.
[261] I give him credit for killing Soleimani.
[262] It is about the only good thing he did on foreign policy.
[263] Well, one more question about Ukraine.
[264] Before, I want to get back to something about the January 6th committee, because right now we're watching all of these missile attacks and these kamikaze drone attacks from Iran on civilian populations in Keeb.
[265] You'd been in the center of a controversy earlier this year when you suggested that we provide more air cover, that we declare a no -fly zone.
[266] People are not talking about a no -fly zone anymore, but should we be providing more air defense to Ukraine?
[267] And what form should that take?
[268] Yeah, absolutely.
[269] Now, air defense is very complicated.
[270] It's, you know, you have short, you have medium, you have long range.
[271] What Ukraine needs is short and medium range air defense.
[272] If you think of things like the Iron Dome or the failing system, which we use, that's more short range.
[273] That's like rockets and everything else.
[274] And then you look at the kind of medium range defense systems, which you're starting to see, I think, Europe provide.
[275] For whatever reason, the United States has said, we're not.
[276] going to provide those.
[277] We'll provide ammo for those.
[278] Obviously, I don't like that answer, except maybe there is just an agreement that Europe's going to do a better job of that.
[279] Here's what I think we need to be doing as well, though.
[280] So, yes, we need to up the air defense for Ukraine to give them the ability to defend against these Iranian drones.
[281] The other thing, there is no way we should not be out there publicly supporting the opposition in Iran right now that is being killed.
[282] These women are going around without their jobs and getting killed for it.
[283] We need to be much more vocal about that because the Ayatollah and the government of Iran hates it when the U .S. speaks up.
[284] It was the terminal mistake we made in the 2009 thing is when Obama didn't say anything about that.
[285] We need to be sanctioning areas that we have sanctioned Russia that may be still open with Ukraine since they have made the decision now to get involved in the war.
[286] We need to make it clear to Israel.
[287] It's time to get off the sidelines on this one.
[288] I understand that there are Russian Jews and Israel that have there is a complicated kind of political thing on this.
[289] And, you know, and Israel's concerned about the Russian presence in Syria, and they'll say that publicly.
[290] But it is time now to get off the sidelines because your arch enemy, Iran, is now killing Ukrainians as well.
[291] So I think those are all important things.
[292] And we keep getting super close.
[293] This is what kind of drives me a little nuts is I'll get indications that they're about to do it and they pull back, which is providing Ukraine with F -16s.
[294] That's not going to happen tomorrow.
[295] So if Biden comes out and says we're going to give Ukraine F -16s, it's not like they're going to be delivered tomorrow and inaction in a week.
[296] It takes three or four months to train a fully trained MIG pilot on the differences between how to fly in F -16, how to employ the weapons systems.
[297] The F -16 is a multi -role fighter so it can do air -to -air and air -to -ground.
[298] So Ukraine needs those.
[299] we should have started training some of their excess capacity pilots, which they have.
[300] We should have started training them months ago in anticipation of giving them those aircraft.
[301] I keep getting indications from people inside that we're about to sign the deal with Ukraine and then somebody on the National Security Council pulls that back, always because they're afraid of escalation.
[302] Look, if Russia wants us to escalate, They can provoke us to escalation.
[303] Russia is not interested in escalating.
[304] They want us to think they're interested in escalating.
[305] Eventually, Ukraine is going to have to have F -16s.
[306] They're going to have to be on NATO standard military equipment because all of the old Soviet equipment in Eastern Europe has already been flushed through Ukraine.
[307] There is no more supply chain for Russian shells, unless the Russians abandoned more.
[308] There's no new supply chain for T80 Russian tanks unless Russia abandons more.
[309] And there's no new aircraft coming off the production line, you know, of Migs or Suquois.
[310] So let's move forward now.
[311] Hopefully this war is over by the time all these pilots are trained up, but they're going to need them anyway.
[312] It does sound like we continue to engage in a little bit of self -determence, convincing ourselves not to do something because it might provoke the Russians.
[313] Well, again, that is deterrence, but it's deterrence that we've internalized to ourselves.
[314] Also, you made a really interesting point about being more outspoken in defense of the, in support of the protests in Iran.
[315] I can't think of any reason why it would not be in the United States' interests, certainly the Biden administration's interest, to be more vocal, to be more aggressive in promoting the protests by Iran's women.
[316] Yeah, I mean, look, do we believe in freedom for women of Iran?
[317] I certainly hope so.
[318] I think we do.
[319] There have been women killed daily, killed by these security forces.
[320] children killed by these security forces.
[321] There's no reason the government, our government, should not be out there publicizing these stories, shaming Iran, calling for freedom, calling for changes, particularly as well if Iran wants to continue to impress our allies in Ukraine.
[322] Okay, let's change gears and go back to the January 6th committee, including one of the big questions that I had coming out of the hearing in which, you know, appear to be lingering.
[323] What is going on with the Secret Service?
[324] One of your colleagues on the committee, Zolai, Offgren said yesterday on CNN that the panel is going to be asking former Secret Service Assistant Director Tony Ornato to testify again.
[325] So talk to me about what the committee, what questions you have about the Secret Service and the questions you're asking going forward.
[326] Well, so if you remember after the whole, which is really the dumbest issue, but it's what's been seized on, you know, the Trump and the Limos story by Cassidy Hutchson that she'd heard, there was, you know, quote unquote secret service sources that said, that never happened.
[327] Well, they were all like.
[328] The time, yeah.
[329] And they were huge.
[330] Yep.
[331] And they were all Tony Ornato, Robert Engel, those guys.
[332] That's who was, that's who the sources were.
[333] And then they, of course, never came in and talked to us.
[334] And as we've gotten more and more testimony, you saw somebody else confirmed that it was a well -known story that was being told out there and all this kind of stuff.
[335] There's a lot of, I believe, areas where we probably have not been told the truth.
[336] And so there could be potential for.
[337] you know, obviously perjury, that kind of stuff.
[338] And look, we still haven't gotten a good answer as to why all of those text messages were deleted after preservation requests for those messages.
[339] Preservation is just like, hey, keep these because we may need them, came from Congress and the inspector general.
[340] There's a, you know, part of it could be some of it, just some view of the Secret Service of secrecy, which I can understand, like, you know, a protectee needs to know that his agents aren't going to go say everything that happens because, you know, otherwise he's going to try to shake the agents.
[341] But Congress has oversight on this.
[342] Congress, particularly on this committee, has a responsibility.
[343] And for whatever reason, you know, there's been some stuff hidden.
[344] Look, I mean, you have a Secret Service agent that ended up getting a leave of absence from the Secret Service to have a political appointment from Donald Trump, who then returned to the Secret Service and then retired when it came out that we might want to to talk to him again.
[345] I mean, it's, there's really is a weird cultural thing occurring there.
[346] Plus, I don't know anything about this personally, but there was the, it was somebody that had recently testified that, I think it was Enrique Tario had a contact in the U .S. Secret Service.
[347] Yeah, those keepers guy, yeah.
[348] So yeah, I mean, look, I, there's more information we need.
[349] We are up against this clock issue.
[350] But I'm going to tell you, even as we're putting out the report and writing the report, we're going to chase these leads down.
[351] And the other thing is, yes, you know, Steve Bannon is being recommended, what, a year or six months in jail, $600 ,000.
[352] And so we have an ability to kind of get justice there.
[353] Justice has a much stronger ability to get justice.
[354] And I think they're pursuing all of this pretty hard.
[355] Well, just to underline the point that you made on these Secret Service members who said that Cassidy Hutchinson was lying about what happened in that limousine on January 6th.
[356] They claimed that they, would speak to you, but they won't do it.
[357] They have not come in.
[358] So once again, we see this interesting phenomenon of people willing to say things on social media and or to reporters in private, but when they're challenged to say it under oath, suddenly they become very reticent.
[359] They do.
[360] And think about it, though, it's brilliant, because the only media that you really need to convince is the right -wing media.
[361] And, you know, if you talk to the average kind of Fox News viewer about this thing, they'll say, well, the Secret Service actually rebutted our statement.
[362] They won't know the fact that it was anonymously, they won't come in and testify, and it was the people that made those statements.
[363] I mean, it's just the problem.
[364] We live in different realities, and that's a deeper conversation, how to get back to where we can actually have a shared set of values again.
[365] But that is the thing that actually probably concerns me, even more than, you know, Donald Trump coming back from the political dead.
[366] Thanks, Kevin McCarthy.
[367] Yeah.
[368] Well, as people may have noticed, we're also in a midterm election cycle.
[369] And since we've sort of commented on a certain media exhaustion or media kinks, just two things that wanted to bounce off you, I thought it was very interesting that at the debate on, was it on Friday night, I've lost track of time now with Herschel Walker and Warnock.
[370] The conventional wisdom is, well, you know, Herschel Walker, you know, cleared the incredibly low bar.
[371] I mean, he didn't, he didn't completely melt down.
[372] So he did what he had to do, which is, is kind of, I think, the laziest kind of journalism.
[373] But I also thought it was interesting, like, wait, you know, there was also that moment where he whips out that fake sheriff's band.
[374] And people are tweeting, I like the guys that back the blue.
[375] And I'm sorry, Adam, it's completely fake.
[376] It's obviously fake.
[377] You know, you want to talk about a Saturday Night Live, you know, skit?
[378] That should have been the skit.
[379] Saturday Night Live did a better job in doing a parody of that than most of the mainstream political pundits.
[380] What did you think?
[381] I mean, 100%.
[382] I mean, literally, it was, look, as long as Herschel Walker doesn't cramp his pants, right?
[383] And so literally, all I had to do was not crap his pants to that one.
[384] Oh, wonderful, fantastic.
[385] I mean, it was insane.
[386] Look, I have a special deputy card.
[387] I got, too, and it was kind of like, ha, ha, ha, ha.
[388] Like, you have no real power.
[389] he is a special honorary deputy which he acts as a real law enforcement officer that's like something that a sheriff gives you as a way to show friendship it's almost like when the people drive around with that like i support the state yeah that's right and then now they think they're a honorary cop yeah i mean dude like this is the problem is america and i and i sometimes just say back i'm like guys like even warnock versus hersher walker warnock is a much better guy i'm not a huge warnock fan.
[390] America, you've got so many people in this country, you deserve way better than the people you're putting forward.
[391] I mean, you know, if it's going to be Joe Biden against Donald Trump, like, come on, America, you can do so much better than this.
[392] I don't know.
[393] Let's talk about Utah for a minute.
[394] Another one of the strange media kinks is, I guess the conventional wisdom is absolutely baffled by why won't Mitt Romney do what every other Republican senator is doing and endorse his colleague Mike Lee for re -election.
[395] I don't know.
[396] Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Mike Lee was actively backing and promoting the big lie.
[397] And maybe Mitt Romney doesn't want to, you know, put on the tribalist flunky jersey to go along with all that.
[398] But that's like, what is wrong with Mitt Romney in Utah that he's not willing to do that?
[399] And again, this is this, the default setting is, you know, yeah.
[400] So Glenn Yonkin, you know, one of the good Republicans goes, any campaigns for Kerry Lake?
[401] can people go, well, that's just what Republicans do, right?
[402] But Mitt Romney stands up against, well, I'm sorry, will not at least get in bed with, Mike Lee?
[403] So you're involved in that.
[404] You've actually endorsed Evan McMullen in that race.
[405] So what's going on there?
[406] Look, Mike Lee is, you know, he used to kind of pretend like to be this sort of Ted Cruz accolide who, you know, knows the Constitution and blah, blah, blah.
[407] Look, if you're actually care about the Constitution, you're not going to support Donald Trump.
[408] I mean, I got to tell you, there's just no way.
[409] And Evan McMullen, I've known him.
[410] And when he told me he was going to run, I'm like, do it, man. I mean, obviously, it's a very unique situation that Democrats have backed him.
[411] I think Evan can win.
[412] In fact, I'm going in a couple days to campaign for him in Utah because it is important for us to show, even if he loses, which again, he really is probably going to win, I think can win.
[413] But this shows that we talk about that unnatural alliance or kind of uneasy alliance between the left and, you know, normal people on the right to defend democracy.
[414] So this is an example of, you know, it's not like the people on Twitter that say, hey, Adam, thanks for the January 6th stuff, but you voted against the Voting Rights Act.
[415] It's like, okay, you don't want to hear why I voted against that.
[416] And plus the fact that I would vote for it if it came up again.
[417] But the fact is you just want to find everything we differ on.
[418] And this is a case where Democrats, independents, and normal Republicans have come together.
[419] to say, okay, yeah, maybe Evan is pro -life and this person's pro -choice, but Evan is better than Mike Lee.
[420] And so I think it's going to be an intriguing race.
[421] I'm excited.
[422] So I endorsed him through my country first movement, which is country -1ST .com.
[423] We also endorsed a number of Democratic secretaries of state.
[424] And of course, the Pennsylvania and Arizona governor's races, we endorse Democrats.
[425] Because look, you know, secretaries of state, they're not really like ideological, but there are people running for Secretary of State in some of these states that have made it clear that they are election deniers.
[426] That's going to throw this country into real deep chaos.
[427] We have got to have this unnatural alliance.
[428] You talk about that all the time with people like Will.
[429] And, you know, it's been inspiring for me, but I think Americans are going to have to take a look at this in the long term and say, that's how we're going to fix this democracy.
[430] It's not going to be tribalism.
[431] It can't be.
[432] And this whole notion that you have to back the party, no matter what, it leads the normal Republicans to embrace people who are, you know, clearly anti -democratic.
[433] And I, look, you've endorsed already in the era, you know, you put your money where your mouth is in Arizona.
[434] And I have to say that among the things that makes me, like, at least pessimistic in the short term, I'm sorry to bring this up on a Monday, is the fact that, I don't know, carry lake could win looks like she's likely to win um you've endorsed katie hobbs i don't know how you feel about this i think she's making a terrible mistake by refusing to debate carry lake it it's just not strong if you're going to fight for democracy you have to freaking fight for it right which means showing up that's right i mean look carry lake is a very good politician she's also pulling out really insane thing she's an election denier katy hobbs has nothing to hide from and it is really disappointing that hiding from her.
[435] And I think it's going to, I could cost her even one or two points.
[436] And that could be enough.
[437] Yeah, absolutely.
[438] So you were on yesterday morning and you were talking about that these lies will go away, but as you point out, they're not going to go away organically.
[439] And I would like to think that you're right that in the long term, it does.
[440] But when you have so few quote unquote responsible political leaders willing to take a stand, and you have so many voters who not only are, who not only look at what happened on January 6th and are not appalled by it, but actually go, yeah, we like to vote for people who celebrate that.
[441] I mean, that's a dark moment.
[442] I think everything you say is right.
[443] I think we can't just sit back and relax and hope this happens, but this is an emotional moment.
[444] Everybody is invested in their worldview.
[445] Their worldview is very personal.
[446] We've gone through really rough elections.
[447] At some point, that kind of emotion will pass so people can look at it with a little clearer eyes.
[448] And secondarily, I don't mean to say this just kind of so harshly, but this will be as generations pass away and new generations come in.
[449] I mean, look, my kid who's nine months old, he is not going to believe that the FBI did January 6th.
[450] So maybe it's 20 years till that generation is kind of, you know, voting and understanding.
[451] I think it's just a matter of time until that kind of crazy moment passes.
[452] The question is, what is the damage in the process?
[453] Let me say this to every election denier out there.
[454] Please do not ever repeat anywhere near me that you want to leave America a country better off than the one you inherited.
[455] If you're out there denigrating the political system, saying that it's impossible to live with people that think differently than you, and saying that the election was completely stolen and Donald Trump is basically the equivalent of Jesus Christ, because I'm going to tell you, unless you think somehow that the other side is going to completely collapse, you're not leaving your kid a better off country because the best thing about America is we teach our young people how to actually live with people that are different than you in a peaceful way.
[456] That's what we've always used as a bragging point.
[457] It's been our shining city on the hill thing.
[458] And that's the beauty of our democracy.
[459] So please don't come here and say, you know, you're not walking here if you don't believe like me because I I want to leave my kid a country better off because I don't think you want to truly understand what America is.
[460] Adam Kinzinger, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast.
[461] You've been on many times, and I've got to tell you, I think this was the best one yet.
[462] Oh, wow.
[463] Thank you.
[464] They're just getting better and better.
[465] So thank you so much.
[466] You bet.
[467] The Bullwark podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio production by Jonathan Siri.
[468] I'm Charlie Sykes.
[469] Thank you for listening to today's Bullwork podcast, and we'll be back tomorrow to do this all over again.