The Bulwark Podcast XX
[0] Hey, JVL.
[1] It's been months since I've seen you without a screen intermediary.
[2] I'm just dying to lick your face and put my hands on you.
[3] And so are you going to come do some public events with us and be among the people?
[4] Human contact?
[5] Yes.
[6] Yes, I'm going to do it.
[7] I'm coming out of the house.
[8] I'm leaving the basement for two days.
[9] May 1st in Philadelphia and May 15th in Washington, D .C. This will be the first Bork event where we encourage jeering because it's Philly.
[10] people.
[11] So jeer us.
[12] Yes.
[13] May 1st.
[14] If we have a bad show, I expect the Philly crowd to boo us.
[15] Please.
[16] Or anyway, even if it's a good show, boo us anyway, we deserve it.
[17] May 1st in Philly, May 15th, 6 and I, Synagogue in Washington, D .C. Come hang out.
[18] Go to the bulwark .com slash events to get your tickets.
[19] Theborec .com slash events.
[20] And JVL.
[21] I just can't wait to get all up on you.
[22] Hello and welcome to the Bullwark podcast.
[23] It's Thursday, April 18th.
[24] I'm delighted to be here with my pal, Ali Vitale, Capital, correspondent for NBC News, my favorite person.
[25] One of my favorite.
[26] Let's not overdo it.
[27] One of my favorite people.
[28] My favorite person was just fine.
[29] One of my favorite people to be on MSNBC with, author of Electable, why America hasn't put a woman in the White House yet.
[30] Obviously, Allie is here to discuss the craziness on the hill and maybe just a hint of sanity on the hill, actually, from the Republicans.
[31] But before we do that, because you've written that book, I'm just kind of dying to ask you about Vice President Harris in the context of the book.
[32] Like, we can stipulate that she's had some political struggles.
[33] Yeah.
[34] I'd argue some of that's her own mistakes.
[35] Some of that's the nature of being VP.
[36] They made a santaire out of V for a reason.
[37] But some is obviously succumbing to the misogynist tropes that have bedeviled other women politicians.
[38] So, like, you studied this.
[39] You looked at Geraldine Ferraro.
[40] You went deep.
[41] So I'm just curious what your take is on how Kamala has navigated all that.
[42] Well, Tim, this is my first time on the pot, but I'm definitely coming back because you just said I was your favorite of all the people you ever have done television.
[43] with is that what I heard correctly well one of my favorites sometimes yeah sometimes I can buff it up a guest a little bit you know I'm new to the host game I want people to come back we love that so you have me now on the hook look when it comes to Kamala Harris I think that and I write this in the book like she is subject to both the fair and unfair her allies would tell you that most of it is unfair her critics would tell you that all of it's fair I actually fall somewhere in the middle right alongside of you which is that as a politician you got a deal in the world that you live in.
[44] And you can't wave a magic wand and make people not still fall prey to misogyny and racism.
[45] You can call it out.
[46] And certainly that's the ecosystem that I hope that we're living in more.
[47] But I think that this last phase of the administration, the last two years, and going into an election year, are really Kamala Harris's chance at redemption in large part because abortion is such a front and center issue.
[48] And we watch the ways that Joe Biden has been willing to talk about it.
[49] But he is more reluctant to dive in on this issue in large part because of his background.
[50] Vice President Harris has been very outspoken.
[51] She has gone to the center of these states in Florida, in Arizona, immediately after those news cycles on whatever abortion restrictions were passed.
[52] That's a really motivating issue for the electorate.
[53] It's important to have a woman and a black woman at that talking about that issue at this moment.
[54] And I do think that because she's at the forefront of that, it is an opportunity for her to be seen as a passionate advocate on a policy that she's comfortable about.
[55] And that's really going to be important when we write the legacy of the first female vice president.
[56] I'd add one more thing to that.
[57] I agree with all that.
[58] I'd like to see her back in that prosecutor role this year, prosecuting the case against Trump aggressively.
[59] Biden is pretty good at that, but, you know, he's lost a step.
[60] And she could really take that.
[61] I think that she's been a little reluctant to be the attack dog.
[62] But I don't know, in some ways, I'm curious your view on this.
[63] Being more aggressive might help overcompensate for some of those unfair implicit biases a little bit, too, and I think it placed her strengths a little bit.
[64] It might, but also, and I again write this in the book, is like, vice presidents are not supposed to overshadow the boss.
[65] True.
[66] Biden's actually an example of what not to do when you look at the ways that he overstepped Obama on a variety of different issues, including but not limited to, gay marriage, and the ways that he made news around Obamacare and other things like that.
[67] You're not supposed to do that if you're being a good vice president.
[68] Every former aide that I talked to who worked at a vice presidential office was like, the job is to ride the coattails and amplify the message.
[69] If she were stepping out in front, what's the thing that we would be hearing consistently?
[70] Oh, she's too ambitious.
[71] Oh, she's trying to get ahead.
[72] Those are unfair misogynist tropes to begin with.
[73] But yes, I do think there's an opportunity for her, especially in a vice presidential debate.
[74] And I put that with an asterisk because, like, I don't know if we're getting debates this time.
[75] But if we do, what an opportunity because we watched what she did with former vice president, Mike Pence, although the fly certainly played its own role, too.
[76] But I do think that if it's someone like Tim Scott or Elise Tophonic or Christy Knoem, that's a fascinating dynamic to watch in a debate stage.
[77] For sure.
[78] And maybe the expectations gave my play to our benefit there.
[79] Okay.
[80] I want to get to the Hill.
[81] But where are you right now for our YouTube viewers?
[82] You have fake books there.
[83] There's a flag.
[84] What is happening?
[85] Where are you right now?
[86] I look like I'm some mix of like a lawmaker with the flags.
[87] But no, I just found a closet in our area on the hill where reporters dwell, our little lairs.
[88] So this is one of the nicer layers.
[89] I dressed it up for you.
[90] The Capitol Hill closet.
[91] It looks really great.
[92] Okay.
[93] So Mike Johnson has found Jesus on Ukraine and kind of shocking.
[94] And so I don't want to be Lucy with the football.
[95] We'll see.
[96] We're taping this.
[97] The Rules Committee is about to meet here as we're taping this.
[98] So we'll kind of know more, I guess, by the time this publishes.
[99] But it seems like Mike Johnson is willing to take one for the team, maybe take one for his speakership on this.
[100] Let's listen to what he said at a press conference yesterday on on the ukraine funding bill you do the right thing and you let the chits fall where they may i don't if i operated uh out of fear over a motion to vacate i would never be able to do my job look history judges us for what we do this is a critical time right now a critical time in the world stage i could make a you know i could make a selfish decision and and and do something that that's different but i i'm doing here what i believe to be the right thing um i think providing lethal a right now is critically important.
[101] I really do.
[102] I really do believe the intel and the briefings that we've gotten that I believe Xi and Vladimir Putin and Iran really are in access of evil.
[103] I think they're in coordination on this.
[104] I think that Vladimir Putin would continue to march through Europe if he were allowed.
[105] I think he might go to the Balkans next.
[106] I think he might have a showdown with Poland or one of our NATO allies.
[107] To put it bluntly, I would rather send bullets to Ukraine than American boys.
[108] My son is going to begin in the Naval Academy this fall.
[109] This is a live fire exercise for me as it is so many American families.
[110] This is not a game.
[111] It's not a joke.
[112] We can't play politics of this.
[113] We have to do the right thing.
[114] And I'm going to allow an opportunity for every single member of the House to vote their conscience and their will on this.
[115] And I think that's the way this institution is supposed to work.
[116] And I'm willing to take personal risk for that because we have to do the right thing in history of judges.
[117] That's a change of tune, Ellie.
[118] I mean, you've been over there.
[119] You've been following this more than me. But I haven't heard Mike Johnson sound like this in the time that he's been speaker?
[120] I think that's right.
[121] I mean, he definitely sounds different than he did as just Congressman Mike Johnson.
[122] Now that he's in the role of speaker, though, I do think this is the first time that he's really speaking explicitly to the stakes of this moment.
[123] I mean, even calling himself earlier this week a wartime speaker, it was real escalation and rhetoric on that one.
[124] A little eye -roly.
[125] A little eye -roly, but, and I take that point, I agree with you.
[126] However, I do think that it also speaks to this moment and why we might be seeing a pivot from him.
[127] Whether or not it costs him his job, I don't know.
[128] I guess we'll see.
[129] I just talked to him minutes ago before they, when they open the house floor, and I asked, are you trying to change the rules around a motion to vacate?
[130] And he sort of downplayed the idea being like, we're focused on the supplemental right now.
[131] I don't know if that's the right way to take it, given the fact that Marjorie Taylor Green says she's not going to privilege her resolution until after and if after.
[132] this foreign aid supplemental vote on Saturday.
[133] So we'll see.
[134] Maybe he waits too long and he ends up being Mersion to vacated.
[135] Maybe he gets McCarthyed before he can change these rules.
[136] I don't know, but the rules are going to have to be changed at some point because however this plays out, you can't keep governing.
[137] That's what you want to call this rigmarole that we've been in lately.
[138] You can't keep doing that with the rules as they are right now.
[139] That's not sustainable.
[140] I'll let me hear more about the reaction from the crazies, but just really quick on Mike Johnson.
[141] And here's one thing that he said.
[142] I just want to read the sentence.
[143] I can make a selfish decision and do something that's different.
[144] But I'm doing here what I believe to be the right thing.
[145] That right thing being making sure that these aid supplementals get up for a vote.
[146] He really could have kind of blamed the crazy caucus, right?
[147] And sort of done the hemming hauling and I think we should do it.
[148] But I've got to defer to my car.
[149] Right.
[150] Like he probably could have gotten away with that.
[151] Right.
[152] And he said he has set this up specifically so that Democrats are going to have.
[153] to be the ones that help bail them out.
[154] And I saw this morning, I was looking at this.
[155] If they do get this to the floor and through the Rules Committee over the objections of Republicans, it'll be the first time since 95 that that has happened.
[156] And that didn't happen in 95.
[157] That's just when we started, they started measuring this.
[158] So it hasn't happened in recorded memory.
[159] That would be a pretty, I don't know, maybe overstayed to call it brave, but bold, move by Mike Johnson.
[160] No?
[161] I mean, out of character.
[162] I mean, he said he's hoping not to have to rely on Democrats to get the rule through.
[163] And like, here's the best way that I think about the rules, because I do get questions from people about this all the time, even people who are political junkies.
[164] Like, the House functions in a weird way.
[165] Basically, I think about the rule vote, both out of the committee and on the House floor, as like the bouncer that you have to pass through to actually get drinks in the bar, right?
[166] Like, you can't...
[167] Is this like the Berlin Club, though?
[168] Is this like the Berlin Club where the bouncer looks at your outfit and decides if you can get in?
[169] No, I think this is a strict idea.
[170] You have to pass the test yet or no. It is very strict here.
[171] But look, the fact that Democrats are even considering this, I think, speaks to why Johnson had to change his tactic in the first place.
[172] I am not someone who buys into the Hail Mary pass of discharge petitions.
[173] Democrats have tried this time and again, and they've never amounted to anything, but they had a discharge petition brewing on the Senate supplemental, which is basically what this is, except Johnson wants to do this piece by piece as opposed to voting on it all together.
[174] But they've had this brewing, and they've been asking, explicitly this week, in their Democratic caucus meetings, hey, use your personal relationships with Republicans, get them to sign onto this discharge petition, maybe because they have trust issues over whether or not this is actually going to come to the floor.
[175] And I have to say, there are Republicans who really, really want this vote.
[176] And I know we often talk about the hardline conservatives who are often the thorn in the side, but at some point, maybe, I don't no, moderates decide that they have just as much sway here and could have gone the other way.
[177] Yeah, Mike Lawler and that.
[178] Again, yeah, that's the interesting thing about this.
[179] Lawler, McCall.
[180] Yeah.
[181] That Johnson hasn't forced them to do that, though, right?
[182] Johnson could have played this in a way that's like, you guys have to do that and over my dead body to help me survive.
[183] And if this comes up in a vote today, that's the interesting thing about the rules.
[184] Like, if it happens so that who are the three, it's Norman Roy and Nassi that are on the Rules Committee, the three Republicans and the Freedom Caucus sent out a letter that was like comparing Johnson to Boehner and Pelosi.
[185] That's not a winning place to be as a Republican speaker.
[186] So if those folks go against it, but the people you're talking about go for it, I had Moskowitz on the podcast.
[187] Moskowitz said he would help.
[188] If it turns out like that, that it happens, that's definitely interesting.
[189] I mean, it's a change of tactic that puts Johnson, I guess you hate to hand it to the Freedom Caucus, but it does make Johnson more kind of like Boehner than what we expect it.
[190] Yeah, I think that's right.
[191] I think Democrats think about him differently than they think about McCarthy.
[192] Why is that, do you think?
[193] You know, I don't know.
[194] I think I'm trying to remember what Dan Kildi said this morning, but it was something to the effect of like he doesn't lie as much and he's a little bit less bad at the job.
[195] I don't know.
[196] Kildee said it much more funny than I ever would have.
[197] But I do think that there's a view that Johnson is someone that they can work with.
[198] There are some Democrats who I've spoken to who will offer the reminder that he is anti -LGBQ, that he is anti -a -a -lot of the positions that progressives themselves espouse.
[199] But the people here who would call themselves, I think, institutionalists who want to see this place just function, the bar is so low now that they'll pretty much do anything to make that happen.
[200] So I actually think, look, in the world where people like us, or at least me, love to see what strange political bedfellows can be made on policy and politics, I actually think that if we actually get a vote on these substantive bills, we're going to see some really weird vote totals because some Democrats won't vote for Israel and some will vote for Ukraine.
[201] And then there's the TikTok bill that also has maybe some border provisions in it.
[202] Like, there are a lot of different things being lumped into this that can come up with some pretty strange ways of bipartisan pairing.
[203] At the end of the day, isn't that how this place should work?
[204] But it's not.
[205] I mean, that's the utopia, right?
[206] Yeah, I know.
[207] That sounds very bulwarky, actually.
[208] We're like, oh, my, holy cow, we could get some bipartisan foreign aid passed.
[209] Wow.
[210] Things keep coming up bulwark.
[211] Okay.
[212] Just really quick on the creativity.
[213] My word.
[214] My word, not yours.
[215] I wouldn't put in your mouth.
[216] You're a reporter.
[217] You know, you were over there during the McCarthy regular role and the Gates and we had all the votes.
[218] You can kind of sense the tension in the conference at that time.
[219] It's hard for me as an outsider to see right now.
[220] Is that tension bubbling up to the same level when you hear from the Roy's and the Massey's and the Gates is, or is it a little bit performative?
[221] They feel like they have to say that they're against it, but they might let it slide.
[222] Like, how do you assess it?
[223] I actually think this is a very individual by individual basis.
[224] Like, Massey is the only one of that crew that's come out and explicitly said, I'm going to go the route of motion to vacate.
[225] I could go that route.
[226] I would co -sponsor it.
[227] Roy and Norman are different in that they do not like this approach and they have very powerful positions on rules that, frankly, several of their colleagues are calling for them to not have if they vote against this rule.
[228] So we'll keep an eye on that space.
[229] But they're not for, at least in my conversations with Ralph Norman, they're not for another motion to vacate and another side.
[230] of just complete and total dysfunction.
[231] A, I think because everyone here recognizes, like, no one would get 218 or 216 if that's the magic number.
[232] No one is getting those votes.
[233] So, like, I don't even know where we would go.
[234] They were scraping the barrel for names the last time around at the end of the year when they were looking for Mike Johnson to ultimately get this job.
[235] So I don't even know where that would put us if they were to do this again.
[236] That's why I think a lot of people don't know if it's real.
[237] But when you talk about the emotional aspect of this, yes, there are people who are very angry.
[238] Is it at the fever pitch that it was last year at Matt Gates and the rest of the folks who voted to oust McCarthy?
[239] No, not yet.
[240] But I'm also someone who thinks it could easily get there if more people keep piecemeal adding to Marjorie Taylor Green's effort.
[241] Ralph Norman's like got to be the most interesting guy in the hell right now.
[242] He was at the January 6th or helped organize the January 6th rally, endorsed Nikki Hayley.
[243] and is now going anti - Mike Johnson on this.
[244] I say what you want about Ralph Norman, I guess.
[245] He goes his own way.
[246] He marches to the meat of his own drummer.
[247] I mean, look, I spent a lot of time with him when I was on the road with Nikki Haley because he was consistently out there.
[248] And I think on paper, for those of us who have watched him in Congress the last two years, especially, it's like, what do you have to do with this woman who is sort of espousing like a different way of being a Republican, even if on policy she is in line with a lot of the things that this Trump era has brought us, certainly not on foreign policy, but like on a lot of the domestic issues, certainly she's there.
[249] But it always seemed like a mismatch.
[250] But again, South Carolina political roots go deep.
[251] And that's what that was about.
[252] And again, I think that Ralph Norman, while he might vote against this rule, the idea that any of these hardline conservatives were ever going to support this foreign aid package, however you chop it up, chunk it up, or put it together is just wrong.
[253] Like, they were always going to have a problem with it, but they also never going to vote for it.
[254] All right.
[255] Last question, I'll let you go.
[256] What are you hearing from the Democrats on that weird fourth element to this?
[257] The TikTok band, there's maybe border, there's a Lendalise Act.
[258] There's like, it's on the stuff I like actually.
[259] It's a bit it's just like it's a weird mishmatch.
[260] What's the sense from the Democrats on that?
[261] I think this one's the wild card, because I hung out with our friends at way too early this morning filling in for our friend John Lemire.
[262] We had Jake Ockincloss on, who is a national security minded Democrat, obviously, a former Marine or a Marine himself.
[263] He never stopped being a Marine.
[264] And he was excited about the TikTok component of this.
[265] He was excited about the fact that Senator Maria Cantwell seemed on board with the fact that her version of this bill was in it.
[266] That might make it a sweetener over on the Senate side.
[267] But then the hang up, of course, is something like the border provision, because Democrats want to be careful about what this actually is.
[268] And if Republicans, again, speaks to the lack of trust if Republicans are trying to sneak something in here, that's going to be the real wildcard, that fourth bill that sort of has the popery of issues of the day in it.
[269] Because I think at the end of it, there's probably more things that Democrats want to vote for in that than against.
[270] But one bad thing could outweigh all of the pretty good things.
[271] And that's the balancing act that we're watching play out here.
[272] Because frankly, the other three bills, the Ukraine, the Israel, and the Indo -Pacific bills are basically the same as what they were in the Senate supplemental, except for like this loan forgiveness piece in the Ukraine thing that says you can't forgive the loan that we're giving Ukraine until after like mid -November of this year or something.
[273] Okay, I lied.
[274] One last really quick question for those of us that are not, don't understand the parliamentary procedure as well.
[275] So do all four need to pass then to get to Senate?
[276] Like what would happen if they passed three and then that one failed?
[277] So this is actually, I think, one of the things that we do not yet know.
[278] In theory, all four of these bills are under the umbrella of that same, actually, maybe we don't know this.
[279] I thought all four of these bills were under the same umbrella as, you know, each other, which means that they're governed under the same rule.
[280] But then there was talk about separating the border to be its own rule and its own vote.
[281] So I actually don't know how we're going to see this play out.
[282] I think maybe because it's still being figured out.
[283] And also I think they're watching the Rules Committee right now pretty closely to see how that actual.
[284] goes.
[285] Okay, we'll keep an eye on that.
[286] And if we have some clarity before this pod comes out, I'll pop on and do an intro.
[287] Allie Vitale, thank you so much.
[288] Come back soon.
[289] You're the best.
[290] I will.
[291] Thanks, my favorite contributor.
[292] I appreciate you.
[293] We'll be back on the other side of Will Salatam.
[294] All right, we are back by popular demand with Will Salatan, writer at the bulwark.
[295] This is also the last day to vote for his podcast in the Webby's, the corruption of Lindsey Graham.
[296] he's currently in the lead for people's voice award.
[297] Stop the count.
[298] Stop the count.
[299] Will, I know that you'll cherish a Webby and we appreciate all the listeners that are voting for you.
[300] We'll put a link in the show notes so you can vote as well.
[301] How you doing, brother?
[302] Good, good.
[303] You sat in and listened to my convo with Allie.
[304] She's one of the best reporters on the hill on this stuff and just a workhorse and knows what's happening.
[305] But, you know, being a reporter sometimes limits your ability to editorialize.
[306] I'm interested in your take on this Mike Johnson, Saul to Damascus thing on Ukraine that's happening right now.
[307] That's pretty astonishing.
[308] Who knows, maybe he'll wimp out.
[309] Maybe he'll revert to being Saul again any minute.
[310] But I don't know.
[311] What do you think?
[312] So this makes me think back to remember when Kevin McCarthy went down, it was like three weeks the Republicans were trying to get a speaker.
[313] And they cycled through just about everybody.
[314] And they ended up with Johnson.
[315] And you and I were both like, who the hell is Mike Johnson?
[316] Right.
[317] He was like deputy undersecretary for.
[318] I'd seen a single Mike Johnson speech.
[319] It wasn't even really a speech.
[320] I'd seen a single thing in Mike Johnson.
[321] I was like, hmm, that's a weird character.
[322] Remember who was right before Mike Johnson?
[323] Jim Jordan was right before that, right?
[324] And so Jim Jordan couldn't quite get there.
[325] And then we ended up with Mike Johnson.
[326] That turned out to be pretty consequential because Jim Jordan is basically an isolationist.
[327] And Mike Johnson is a Reagan Republican on foreign policy.
[328] Pretending to be an isolationist.
[329] His heart is there.
[330] He, you know, the way he talks about Like, if we don't stop Putin, he's going through the rest of Europe.
[331] Every once in a while I'll sound like Kinsinger or Bill Crystal or something.
[332] And then I'll decide he reverts.
[333] I don't know.
[334] It's very strange.
[335] But you can tell it's in there.
[336] There's like a little hint of something.
[337] Yeah.
[338] There's a little hint of Reagan in there somewhere.
[339] I think that was historically it could turn out to be an important moment.
[340] Then the next question, of course, is he willing to fall on his sword?
[341] Is he willing to die for this?
[342] And he's got the whole Christian thing going on.
[343] Like, this is all about what's right and wrong.
[344] And look, when he gets to stuff like anti -gay, you're like, the Christian stuff doesn't really help there.
[345] But when he believes that the right thing to do is to, you know, save Ukraine, he's the kind of guy who seems willing to, like, take a sacrifice for that.
[346] And he talks about his, that was so weird yesterday.
[347] He talked about his place in history.
[348] And we'd like members of Congress.
[349] We'd like speakers to think that way, wouldn't we?
[350] Like, I'm going to do the right thing.
[351] Like, this bill, getting this past, saving this country, stopping this aggression is more important than my job.
[352] We'd love for members of Congress to think that way.
[353] And God bless him, Mike Johnson seems to be doing that.
[354] Maybe there's a Mike Pence element of this.
[355] Again, like, it's like plenty to criticize.
[356] So please, this is not a hegeography and it's six months late.
[357] But go back to that line, Iridale, I can make a selfish decision and do something that's different, but I'm doing here what I believe to be the right thing.
[358] You know, it could be bluster, right?
[359] It could be fake moralizing.
[360] There's plenty of people that do fake moralizing.
[361] But if it turns out that he really jams this thing through with Democrats and faces, potentially getting overthrown in his speakership.
[362] And conceivably it could end up making him more powerful also, right?
[363] Because like, let's say he jams it through and these guys fail in that motion to vacate, which is also possible.
[364] He could end up coming out of this.
[365] It's sort of like, why don't more people try this?
[366] This is one of my biggest frustrations the last nine years.
[367] If he follows through on this, there seems like some pretty big upsides, both for policy and politics and his eternal soul all across the war.
[368] it feels like it could be working for them.
[369] Let me pull on that eternal soul theme for a minute.
[370] People who believe this, people who believe that they're part of some large thing, God's plan or whatever, they can be appealed to to do this large thing that ends their career because they believe it's going to last into eternity, like did they do the right thing in the story?
[371] Like a biblical character, right?
[372] If Mike Johnson sees himself that way, that's good.
[373] And speaking for myself, I can't speak for you on this, but maybe you would agree with me, I think it's really important for those of us who want conversions that you were for Trump, you know, now you, like Chris Christie.
[374] At the end of Chris Christie's career, he does the right thing.
[375] He turns against Trump.
[376] Did you have to pick Chris Christie as the example?
[377] I think I'm going to agree with you, but you picked an example that's going to make it really hard for me. But go ahead.
[378] Finish your thought.
[379] Okay, good, good.
[380] That should, we should make it hard to test the proposition.
[381] We should let people be remembered for the last thing they did if it was the right thing.
[382] I understand all of what Chris Christie did going into this, but so if Mike Johnson ends his career as speaker by getting the money to Ukraine and at least preventing them from collapsing, which seems to be what's going on and a lot of the front over there, God bless him.
[383] And I'm willing to forgive and not forget, but to forgive a lot of what he did before that.
[384] And I want to incentivize that.
[385] I want people who come after Mike Johnson to say, you know, I may have been a cynical character here and there in my career, but here is a great way to go out.
[386] And instead of like the Kevin McCarthy character where you're always conniving to stay in power, have people be willing to say, this bill, this thing I'm going to do right now, probably will cost my career, might cost me my career.
[387] But it doesn't end the history of me. It makes the history of me. It is the headline in the history of me. I did the right thing.
[388] I also think maybe it's sometimes okay to look at these things more in micro examples.
[389] And some of my friends that work for campaigns to give me shit, they're like, oh, you're going to shit on my percursing constantly, right?
[390] I had a friend that went and he meekly informed video he was going to work for DeSantis' super PAC.
[391] It's not like it would have been helpful for the bulwark to compliment Ron DeSantis.
[392] There are always all these demands like, why aren't you nicer to Ron DeSantis?
[393] You really hate Trump?
[394] I'm like, the nicest thing I can do to Ron DeSantis is talked about how crazy is.
[395] So maybe the craziest will be like, oh, okay.
[396] If the never Trumpers hate him that much, he might be pretty good.
[397] Anyway, point being, I always said, look, if Ron DeSantis does the right thing one time, I'll say it.
[398] I'm for that on.
[399] incentivizing that way.
[400] Does that change their character?
[401] Does it change the life story for me of Chris Christie?
[402] Is Chris Christie's headline that did the right thing this year?
[403] Maybe if he really goes for it, maybe he can earn it, right?
[404] But to me, his headline might still be what he did in 2016.
[405] But that doesn't mean we can't say, hey, good on you, chap, right?
[406] This was good.
[407] This was meaningful.
[408] Humans are complicated.
[409] We all make choices that are good and bad.
[410] We all have angels and devils, right?
[411] In this case, you did the right thing and good on you.
[412] no caveats.
[413] And I would like to be able to say that about Mike Johnson next week.
[414] We'll see.
[415] Look, I understand your point that when this is all written, do we really want to forgive and forget?
[416] Maybe not.
[417] But in terms of actually having an effect in the present, leaving open the possibility that somebody who has done the wrong thing a hundred times might do the right thing, even for reasons of some quirk that they, you know, happened.
[418] I always remember who is it, Rob Portman, found out his son was gay and suddenly like changed his position on the issue.
[419] And I had people telling me like, don't forgive this guy.
[420] And I'm like, look, this one thing happened in this guy's life that made him do the right thing.
[421] And that's great.
[422] And here is a thing which is going to be, it is not yet decided what happens in Ukraine.
[423] And if Mike Johnson can be incentivized to do the right thing, this one time, I am for any portrayal of him that gets that done.
[424] And then we can settle historical accounts later.
[425] Same.
[426] And by the way, on the Rob Portman situation, some people have gay sons and don't do the right thing.
[427] So just, I always was like, okay, I mean, yeah, I guess it helped him that he had that experience, but that still took courage.
[428] I mean, shoot, he came out for gay marriage for a lot of Democrats did.
[429] Okay, here's somebody that I don't think is ever going to do the right thing.
[430] After that, kind of moral hand -wringing over how to judge someone, how to handle complicated people.
[431] Here's an uncomplicated person.
[432] Marjorie Taylor Green.
[433] I don't know if you've seen this.
[434] I literally thought it was a spoof.
[435] This is why AI is going to to make our lives hard.
[436] Somebody posted onto Twitter screenshots of two amendments that Marjorie Taylor Green had filed.
[437] The first one was calling for all members who vote for Ukraine aid to conscript in the Ukrainian army.
[438] I don't think she knows what the word conscript means, but that was one.
[439] The other one that was really what made me think it was a spoof, said that Israel aid will be used instead for the development of space laser technology on the southern border.
[440] That's real.
[441] So I saw both those and I was like, that's not real.
[442] The person linked to them.
[443] It's like, okay, it's real.
[444] She's filed three more amendments since then.
[445] Amendment to the Ukraine aid bill.
[446] All the money in the bill is reduced to zero and instead provided to Hawaii and East Palestine, Ohio.
[447] Another one, no Ukraine aid can be expended until Ukraine closes all their bio laboratories.
[448] This is Russian propaganda.
[449] That's not real.
[450] And lastly, she wants to use the money to start deporting people.
[451] So Mike Johnson said he's going have an open amendment process.
[452] So I guess in the people's house, we're going to have to vote on these very serious amendments.
[453] Any of those sound good to you?
[454] No. But, you know, we know that she's got this bugaboo about Ukraine, you know, wants to zero it out.
[455] And she buys this garbage about bio labs and Zelensky and all that.
[456] Her district is what?
[457] Trump plus 37 or so.
[458] I forget what it is.
[459] Like, you can't get rid of her in her district.
[460] You can Madison Cothorner.
[461] That's maybe the right way.
[462] Like a MAGA person, but it would be really tough.
[463] They kind of gay baited Madison Cothorn and he like had a lot of weird personal issues.
[464] It's probably, it's really hard to get rid of her.
[465] But you need somebody that's like, that would be totally unacceptable to you and me. You know, you need a MAGA person to primary.
[466] So, okay, Tim, you know how this works.
[467] I don't really know this world.
[468] But like, you know, Kevin McCarthy has this revenge pack going where he's like trying to, trying to take down everybody who voted against him.
[469] So there are smart people who operate in what now passes for the middle, the mainstream, the leadership of the Republican, like the House Republicans.
[470] Some of them have got to be targeting.
[471] How can we get rid of her?
[472] Right.
[473] She's the one who's like got the motion to vacate bug and, you know, she's constantly, they're working with a small margin, even if they win some seats this fall, which they probably won't.
[474] They'd love to have a hook to get her.
[475] Ukraine is not it, right?
[476] You're not going to like find like a pro -Ukraine candidate in that district is going to run on that issue.
[477] But Israel, this Israel thing, it sounds like a joke.
[478] that amendment a joke or is she totally serious about that?
[479] Is it like some kind of troll throwback to her Jewish space lasers?
[480] I don't know.
[481] I got to tell you, sometimes I get called to be on liberal podcasts and stuff where they're like, help us understand what's happening.
[482] And it's getting harder and harder for me. You know, I can do my best in certain cases or certain things where I have expertise where I know these people, but getting inside the head of Marjorie Taylor Green is a task too large for me. So I don't know if that one's a joke or not.
[483] Maybe the Israel aide.
[484] And I also I just don't know that the military aid to Israel is the hook for beating somebody in a primary either.
[485] I think it's going to be kind of split.
[486] And there are going to be some very people that very strongly want Israel aid in the conservative base and the evangelical base.
[487] But I don't know.
[488] I don't know that that's going to be a deal breaker.
[489] Well, I was kind of hoping that Israel would be the hook because I think she's cast some votes also that put her in a position where you could run somebody to the right of her on Israel.
[490] You know, you always wonder how the new Republican isolationism intersects with the old Republican support for Israel.
[491] You know, on Russia, of course, the isolationists seem to be winning.
[492] But on Israel, don't send money to Israel.
[493] We need to protect our own border.
[494] Is that really becoming a thing?
[495] A little bit.
[496] I think that younger, right?
[497] This is something that people misunderstand.
[498] Like, the magization of the party is kind of inverse, right?
[499] The older voters, Mike Johnson isn't that old.
[500] And he said this.
[501] He's like, I'm a child of the 80s.
[502] He said this in the Jake Tapper interview, right?
[503] I still believe in the Reagan Peace Through Strength.
[504] So that's good.
[505] You can use that.
[506] You can work with those people.
[507] The younger folks, so the TPUSA, for example, I thought this was super interesting.
[508] They polled their members, Turning Point USA, and the guy gave it to me when I was out there reporting on it.
[509] And he showed me the poll.
[510] And it was like, should we give aid to Ukraine financial aid?
[511] And it was like $3 .97 or something.
[512] Like nobody thought we should.
[513] Israel was like 50 -50.
[514] I thought that was interesting.
[515] It was more for military aid, but like financial age, we provide aid to Israel.
[516] And it was kind of like, okay, is that number headed towards three or is this really a 50 -50 split on something like Israel?
[517] And I just think that's kind of a TBD, you know, because Ukraine started at 50 -50, right?
[518] We had a many podcasts.
[519] You and Charlie were out here talking about this.
[520] It's like, what's going to happen with the Republican base?
[521] It's interesting.
[522] Like the big, the Tucker Carlson's, a lot of influencers were out there saying we shouldn't help them.
[523] but the voters were kind of split and now that you know slowly but surely the voters have moved more into the trump tucker camp would that happen on israel i don't know israel there's a lot more depth of relationship there this is the religious element i don't know that it's going to go the same trajectory but but you can see it moving that way slightly i think yeah i wonder if i were in israeli obviously watches u .s politics a lot and they want to have hooks in both parties and if i were in the israeli government or just an israeli citizen i might be worried about what's going to happen to the Republican Party in the United States and whether the isolationism that has already corrupted the party on Europe will also corrupt it on Israel.
[524] While we're on anti -Semitism, you've been digging in on Alejandro Mayorkas and that impeachment.
[525] So we'll get to that next.
[526] But while we're on Israel, we'll listen to an audio, some audio from Capitol Hill yesterday.
[527] There was a hearing on anti -Semitism.
[528] They brought the head of Columbia to try to do a rehash of the successful hearing where the Republicans feel like they got a scalp of the Harvard and Penn. presidents, so they brought the Columbia president through.
[529] Here is Congressman Rick Green of Georgia Republican, in case you're wondering, speaking to the president of Columbia.
[530] I mean, maybe you should have a course, and you know, you don't have to believe it, but, you know, the Bible is an incredible book.
[531] There's a lot of history there, and you don't have to believe it, but you need to know what's in there.
[532] Maybe you should have a course suggested for those who are having problems with all of this, on the Bible, and what's in the Bible and kind of what will happen if, you know, under the wrath of God.
[533] Oh, my God.
[534] Yeah, that's really something, Will.
[535] I didn't even play you the whole thing.
[536] Actually, that was Rick Allen.
[537] I think I said Rick Green, you know, maybe it could be a cousin of Marjorie.
[538] Rick Allen of Georgia, he also asked the Columbia University President if she's worried about suffering the wrath of God.
[539] Interesting off there in the House of Representatives.
[540] On the one hand, I think it speaks to your point that maybe there's some still old style religiosity in the Republican Party.
[541] It's going to prevent them from going full isolationist on Israel.
[542] On the other hand, that's some weird shit.
[543] That is some very weird shit.
[544] I mean, the idea of like, I'm sure this was true 150 years ago, but we, you know, to have people in Congress who believe in the Bible literally things.
[545] I mean, look, I love the Bible.
[546] There's a lot of good lessons, but the Bible says things like if you mix fabrics, you know, your blood shall be on your own head.
[547] The idea that God's wrath is going to punish you for your policy on speech on a campus.
[548] Come on.
[549] And it degrades the larger issues, which is what are the boundaries of free speed in the context of university?
[550] What counts as anti -Semitism?
[551] What is just anti -Israel?
[552] What is anti -Jewish?
[553] These are like serious issues.
[554] This wrath stuff is just not representing anybody well.
[555] No. And it also just speaks to the unciriousness of what is happening in these oversight hearings, which is related to my orchestra.
[556] The campus anti -Semitism stuff, I take very seriously.
[557] And sometimes I mock some of the most absurd right -wing arguments related to it because they are mockable and they deserve to be mocks.
[558] I think they undermine, like you're saying, the legitimate concerns.
[559] But I still think sometimes we need to have a little perspective about what's actually happening with the youth.
[560] And there's a Harvard poll out this morning that I think is interesting.
[561] The question that they ask is kind of weird.
[562] but they ask whether or not they believe Israel's response so far to the October 7 attack by Hamas has been justified and justify it's an interesting word because I'm like when I'm thinking about that I would kind of answer that question I think yes I think it's justified but if you used a different word like has it been proportionate or like maybe I would have so anyway that said 45 % said they didn't know 21 % said justified 32 % said not justified I think it's like a very different picture of the youth than you're hearing and some of those stuff.
[563] I think there's definitely some anti -Semitism on campus.
[564] There's definitely a trendy kind of anti -Israel sentiment on social media.
[565] But I don't know.
[566] Maybe the kids are all right a little bit on this.
[567] I think that's a pretty rational response.
[568] That breakdown, what say you?
[569] Yeah.
[570] So to me, the most interesting number that you read off was the don't knows.
[571] That was 45%, right?
[572] This is a Harvard poll, right?
[573] Yeah.
[574] But it's done by Ipsos.
[575] There's another poll that has Harvard's name on it, right?
[576] The Harvard Capps -Harris poll, which is a Mark Penn poll.
[577] Yeah, that's crap.
[578] Right.
[579] These guys are good.
[580] The Harvard Youth Poll guy is -Rourn needs to get its name off the Mark Penn poll.
[581] Yeah.
[582] But here you see a difference in methodology because one of the things that the Mark Penn poll does is they eliminate all the don't -nots when they report the number.
[583] So imagine if they took that breakdown you just gave me and inflated both sides of it, right?
[584] And what would it be?
[585] Right, it would be like 65 -35 or something, probably.
[586] saying not justified right yeah and so that's a completely different read when you put the don't nose in there you get the nuanced portrait at least kids are like wait a minute what do I you know it's complicated there those are people who are saying what you're saying right like well I sort of think it's right because of what happened on October 7th but they kind of went overboard and so I'm going to say don't know you got to give people space in polling to express nuance at least give them a don't know and at least publish those numbers yeah I agree it's interesting I want to I've been trying to get a couple other guests on the campus anti -Semitism stuff, because I think it's interesting.
[587] I think that there's some really bad stuff happening that is worth discussing and exploring, but I also think it's more complicated picture than sometimes people want to paint.
[588] All right, Majorcas, it's been hard for me to care about this, I've got to say.
[589] You know, I've got to care about so much.
[590] David Sanger had me, you know, reading about the history of China yesterday.
[591] And so I'm doing my best here.
[592] And so occasionally I see something in the news.
[593] I'm just like, I don't care about this anymore.
[594] the Mayorkas impeachment was, to me, preposterous from the start.
[595] I went to the Senate.
[596] I did notice yesterday that both Murkowski and Collins voted for the conviction, which was pretty disappointing, but they didn't really seem to have a real trial as a party line thing.
[597] You've been following this more closely.
[598] What say you about, you know, what's been happening over there with regards to the oversight, so to speak, of Alejandro Mayorkas?
[599] Murkowski and Collins didn't vote for, they voted to continue and have a trial.
[600] That's important clarification.
[601] The Democrats were trying to dismiss it up front.
[602] So this was just to have, and Romney, you know, like there is an argument for having the trial.
[603] Just really quick, actually.
[604] So because I want to get this right.
[605] So the vote was kind of like in the Trump impeachments, right?
[606] You vote on whether the Senate is going to take this.
[607] The House has passed an impeachment.
[608] The Senate decides whether to take it up and whether we have an actual trial and then create some rules around when the trial is, right?
[609] That's how the process goes.
[610] And the Democrats are saying, let's dump this.
[611] there were some Republicans I thought we were saying let's table it and then there are others saying let's take it up right that that was basically how it broke down okay so what they're required to do what the sentence required to do is to meet as a court of impeachment but what they do from that point on is up to them and Schumer just basically said we're going to we're going to dismiss this thing because it's garbage and it is garbage and so then there were there were a series of motions that Republicans did to try to end run that to like table this postpone that change this and then you have party line boats on all that stuff But all of it was about whether to have a more serious trial where you hear all the evidence.
[612] And the Democrats prevail, and they prevailed because they were right.
[613] This impeachment was one of those impeachments that says more about the impeacher than the impeachee, right?
[614] I mean, Majorchus was not guilty of anything that they accused him of, but it was absurd that they did this.
[615] And it's a reflection of how dysfunctional the Republican Party is.
[616] The articles of impeachment for people who haven't followed this were there were two of them.
[617] one was claiming that myokris had refused to comply with the law and the second one was that he had lied to congress okay the refusal to comply with the law was basically some policy differences that republicans had with myorkas and they just decided to criminalize those and make it an impeachment thing and by the way they had all these hearings with myrarchus and he would come in and they would say you're not doing what the law requires and myorkets would say yes i am and he would explain his position and okay if you don't like that republicans you can sue to like say the DHS is not complying with the law.
[618] And there were suits about this, right?
[619] And then you let the courts decide it.
[620] You don't impeach the guy over it.
[621] Then they said he's lying to Congress.
[622] What were the lies to him?
[623] What were the awful lies?
[624] I recommend everyone read the articles of impeachment.
[625] He said the border was secure.
[626] He used the word secure.
[627] He said the border was closed.
[628] He said that we had operational control.
[629] And we didn't.
[630] I mean, okay, like, you can argue that that wasn't true.
[631] Then you're arguing about the meaning of things.
[632] Like, did Michael Brown do a heck of job, you know, was mission accomplished in Iraq, you know, in 2003.
[633] Okay, these things weren't true, but they're like interpretive things.
[634] It was absurd that they impeached him.
[635] You probably could have got some Democrats voting to impeach W over Mission Accomplished, the Mission Accomplished banner.
[636] I don't know if it would have passed the House of Representatives, but you probably could have got some Democrats to vote for them.
[637] Yeah.
[638] And then they said he had this scheme.
[639] And they quote from this guidance he issued about how to enforce the border in like 2021.
[640] And like, this is some secret document.
[641] Tim, this was like a published thing.
[642] He said, here's how we're going to enforce this.
[643] We have too many people coming in.
[644] The point is, all of the problems that Mayorkas has at the border could be solved by increasing border enforcement, supplying more agents, more judges, right?
[645] And like tightening things like asylum standards.
[646] The Republicans had legislation in front of them that, you know, James Langford helped negotiate.
[647] And they refused because, Tim, they don't want to solve the problem.
[648] they want to stage garbage like this theater of impeaching Majorcas.
[649] The whole thing is ridiculous.
[650] There's no precedent for it.
[651] There hadn't been a cabinet secretary impeached since somebody that like literally stole money.
[652] It was like an actual bootlegger.
[653] I don't remember the exact story I read a couple months ago.
[654] But, you know, it's from the 1800s.
[655] You know, the whole thing is silly.
[656] I think that the Biden administration has some failures on the border.
[657] Myarchus has maybe not been the best cabinet secretary of all time.
[658] But we don't impeach cabinet secretaries for being.
[659] bad.
[660] There have been a lot of bad cabinet secretaries.
[661] We could go down the list of the Trump cabinet and, you know, Obama had a couple of duds and Bush had some duds.
[662] We could go back through John Ashcroft.
[663] I mean, like, it's just stupid.
[664] The whole thing is stupid.
[665] But part of the reason to me is what it says is going back to the Mike Johnson thing.
[666] These guys can't govern, right?
[667] They need Democrats to govern.
[668] What can they do?
[669] They can virtue signal.
[670] You know, they also passed a thing condemning from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.
[671] And so it's like, they can condemn people, they can finger wag, they can name post offices.
[672] That's what the Republican majority can do, right?
[673] So that's why that's what they did.
[674] Tim, that is the core of the whole thing.
[675] And this extends to so many other issues.
[676] Like take immigration.
[677] No one is representing the Tim Miller position.
[678] And I share it, right?
[679] This is an issue where we actually need a conservative party.
[680] We need a party that says there's too many people coming to the border.
[681] We can't handle it.
[682] It's chaos.
[683] Whatever.
[684] you think of immigration in general, this kind of immigration is like people abusing the asylum system.
[685] We need to tighten the standards.
[686] We need more enforcement.
[687] And the Republican Party ought to be doing that.
[688] They're not doing that because you just nailed the important point.
[689] That involves governing.
[690] That involves compromising.
[691] Langford tried to do it.
[692] And they said, no, no, because we just want the issue.
[693] And instead you get this theater.
[694] So you have a liberal party, which the Democrats are.
[695] And then you don't have a conservative party.
[696] You have this non -governing virtue signaling.
[697] news theater party.
[698] And we're not going to have a healthy country.
[699] And we're certainly not going to solve this issue until we have a real conservative party.
[700] And there are a handful of conservatives that are like, Board of Security only, but none of them are serious.
[701] Like, there's really nobody that is representing the real Tim Miller position, which is like, the gang of eight bill was great.
[702] Like, we had a lot of people representing my position back then.
[703] Like, let's give the dream.
[704] Like, it is crazy.
[705] When I was with my younger brother, his bachelor party, I was there with one of his friends he's quite a bit younger than me and so this person is over the late 20s or early 30s and they had a friend that's a dreamer and it's like kind of crazy to think about that right like it's been so long that like dreamers are in their 30s and are still going through this where like they are not permanent residents they don't have a green car right like and like these sorts of deal making we're not talking about people like oh you know the least sympathetic migrants right like we're not talking about that we're people that were brought to this country they're really young like they've been here now for 30 years, they have jobs, they're paying taxes, right?
[706] And so can we not cut a deal where we give them, you know, some stability in exchange for more judges, more security?
[707] I don't know about the space lasers on the border, but sometimes, right, like, there's like literally nobody represent, there are a handful of Democrats that basically reflect that position, but not that many.
[708] Like, there aren't that many Democrats that are out there actually, you know, trying to push the compromise side of it.
[709] You know, part of the tragedy is the people who think like you, they're leaving.
[710] A lot of them left.
[711] They looked at what's going on.
[712] They're like, we have no future here.
[713] They're the problem solvers kind of people.
[714] And if we bring this back to Mike Johnson for a minute, it would be awesome if Mike Johnson had to rely on Democratic votes to survive a motion to vacate.
[715] If you had the beginnings of some cross -partisan, you know, cooperation, if only under duress, if only like save Congress and keep it functional.
[716] And, you know, we have the perverse problem of.
[717] He knows that if he gets any Democratic support, like, that's going to kill him on the right because everybody's so defined by opposing the other side.
[718] But I would love to see something trigger a little bit of bipartisanship because on an issue like the border, there is a lot of agreement and there was demonstrated in that border bill.
[719] You know, to be fair, I was a little glib about this.
[720] There are a couple of members that are really pushing for compromise on this and understanding.
[721] And just For one example, by the way, Democratic Senator Chris Murphy is in the bulwark today with an op -ed about immigrants and American anxiety and how the left can, you know, address the immigration issue, you know, while also still being humane and true of their values.
[722] And, of course, James Langford, you know, worked across the aisle on the Senate bill.
[723] So there are some examples of this.
[724] Okay.
[725] What else do we got here?
[726] Do you want to talk about Arizona or do we want to talk about Biden's tariff push?
[727] I'll just say one thing about Arizona.
[728] I'm totally shocked.
[729] Just really quick, actually, and I'll let you explain your shock.
[730] What happened?
[731] So yesterday, they tried to bring up a couple of bills to repeal the 1864 law that the pedophile guy signed when Arizona was a territory, when women couldn't vote.
[732] And the Republicans blocked it.
[733] The Republicans blocked it so that it couldn't be overturned, which is just insane because it wouldn't have overturned it to pre -Roe, actually.
[734] It would have overturned it to a 15 -week ban that had already been passed.
[735] And there were posing of the legislature in Arizona blocked it.
[736] Crazy.
[737] Right.
[738] By the way, just one side note about the pedophile guy.
[739] Tim, you can understand why somebody like that would oppose women having the right to vote because his wife was 15.
[740] So if you're 12, I think he had a 15 year old and a 12.
[741] So if you're marrying minors, you know, you can sort of see how like, she's not of age yet.
[742] But seriously, Trump, Carrie Lake, people who are actually like looking at the politics at this issue know that you can defend the 15 weeks.
[743] line, you can't defend a zero, particularly in Arizona.
[744] It's a Republican state in some ways, it's a purple state, but it's a libertarian state.
[745] Like, you're going to lose all those people.
[746] So it was a no -brainer that they should dump that law as fast as they could for the Republicans to get rid of it because it's a loser of an issue.
[747] And the Speaker of the House, Thomas, seems to be like, no, no, we're going to hold on to this.
[748] If they hold on through November, then the pro -choice ballot measure will pass, and Arizona will go from 15 to 24 weeks, go to viability.
[749] But even if they don't, they're out there gathering signatures for this ballot measure right now, right?
[750] And you can't possibly do more to boost the signature drive than to be like, yeah, you know, abortion is totally illegal even for rape and incest in Arizona.
[751] Yeah, that's just going to juice the pro -choice side.
[752] And they've already lost what, the governorship, the Senate seats.
[753] They're hanging on to margins of like two votes in the House in Arizona, the Republicans.
[754] And similar margin in the Senate, they're just going to be completely cleaned out in November if they don't get rid of this law.
[755] Yeah, they're going to lose a couple of judges too.
[756] I just, it's a total unbelievable self -owned.
[757] They could have also just being Machiavellian about this, like gone on off.
[758] They could have repealed it, tried to pass something else.
[759] They controlled legislature and forced or tried to cut some deal where the repeal is tied to something else that's prettyochronian and made and made Katie Hobbs veto it, the wild -eyed freaks that are like being recruited to run for these offices and that are attracted to the Donald Trump era Republican Party.
[760] Let's just be honest.
[761] Trump might have, you know, some kind of instinct, some kind of lizard instinct when it comes on abortion, that he's attracted the craziest possible people to the party.
[762] And the people that were already in the party who are crazy have been emboldened.
[763] And like you said, the people who are like, this is a little too much for me, have left.
[764] So you end up this trickles down.
[765] Like this whole, the whole impact isn't just happening in national conferences at the legislative level.
[766] All right.
[767] Last item, the Biden tariff push.
[768] Oh, so there's a policy and a political element tier that are worth discussing.
[769] Biden is campaigning in Pennsylvania.
[770] He's got an ad up.
[771] It's pretty good.
[772] It's not the best ad he's ran, but it's a steel worker, black steel worker talking about the thing that I like about it is he's talking about how Donald Trump didn't do shit for them, which is true, which I think a really good message for Biden to stick on Biden that Trump talks populist.
[773] He talks like he cares about the forgotten man, but he doesn't.
[774] He only cares about himself.
[775] I think that's a really potent message for Biden this year.
[776] So that's good.
[777] But they're tying it to, like they're going to increase the tariff on.
[778] steal from 7 to 25 percent.
[779] And maybe there's a lag on this on what the consumer impact is going to be, but even still in a time where you're still worried about high inflation, the policy here is pretty bad.
[780] What do you think about that whole offensive here from Biden with an ad, you know, putting some policy behind it with the tariffs, going to Pennsylvania, leaning in on, you know, the industrial Midwest.
[781] Well, so you and I are democracy people.
[782] Democracy rule of law, that's the big issue here, right?
[783] And for Democrats, they seem to be, the Biden people seem to be betting, at least in Pennsylvania.
[784] And maybe the other blue wall states, they're going to do the same thing.
[785] Like, thank you very much about the democracy message.
[786] Yeah, we'll talk about that.
[787] But if you look at polls, what you and I care about is not cutting enough.
[788] Maybe in Fulton County, you know, that'll make enough of a difference.
[789] I don't know.
[790] Sure, Philly Burbs.
[791] Hello.
[792] By the way, we got a live event coming in Philly, May 1st.
[793] Go to the bulwark .com slash events.
[794] Come see us.
[795] Yeah.
[796] Sorry, well.
[797] Yeah, no, go go see.
[798] But in the Blue wall states, they seem to be going with the class message.
[799] Like, you know, like we're for the common man. Trump's for the, and as you point out, I mean, the ad's got a lot of good stuff in there, and Trump really took care of his buddies, the billionaires, he's a country club guy.
[800] And that's all true.
[801] Tariffs are not my favorite issue for a couple reasons.
[802] One, a tariff is a tax.
[803] It hits everybody who buys the product.
[804] So it's a aggressive tax.
[805] I don't like them.
[806] I think this is a case where markets generally work.
[807] The other reason is there used to be a division of xenophobia between the two parties.
[808] The Republicans had like anti -immigrant xenophobia, you know, and the Democrats had trade xenophobia, which was like, and this goes back to Dick Gaphard and like, you know, we're going to stick it to the Japanese.
[809] You could play on people's hatred of the Asians, right, by talking about tariffs.
[810] And what Trump did, when Trump came in, he was like, hey, why not both?
[811] I'm a xenophobia.
[812] I'm like, universal xenophobia.
[813] So like, I'm against immigrants and I'm against trade, right?
[814] And so that was a politically smart play, playing to the worst in people.
[815] people, but it was effective.
[816] And it looks to me, Tim, like Biden's just trying to take that back.
[817] Like, your tariff is what?
[818] What percent?
[819] We're going to triple your tariff, you know?
[820] So the Democrats, I think, are going to use some of the xenophobia.
[821] Like, I don't have a problem with the anti -rich message.
[822] Rich people can protect themselves.
[823] I don't like the attacking of ethnic angles.
[824] I hear you.
[825] I think that your broader case is correct.
[826] I'd love that you mentioned the Japanese, because it was the Japanese before the Chinese.
[827] And that was Trump.
[828] Like, Trump was still stuck on not liking Japan when he started the campaign.
[829] 2015, right?
[830] It was like, you know, he had to kind of switch it because his head is still stuck in like the 1980s, New York tabloid.
[831] But yeah, I don't know if they're praying on xenophobia.
[832] The Biden campaign is so much as they're just trying to do the raw, raw American worker thing in a way that is a little cheap and not actually going to work and maybe hurt consumers a little bit on the margins.
[833] But I'm trying to have a Democrat who's very excited about this kind of democratic populism on the pod in the next few weeks.
[834] So I will argue about that with him, not with you, Will Salatan since we basically agree.
[835] That's a great Thursday podcast.
[836] I'm looking forward to seeing what happens on the hill.
[837] We'll be back tomorrow with one of our favorite friends of the board podcast.
[838] So make sure to check us out then.
[839] Thanks so much, Will Salatan.
[840] Thank you, Tim.
[841] Everybody else, we'll see you back here tomorrow.
[842] Peace.
[843] This is Crown Seal, where I'm rising from the ashes.
[844] The first step on the road to Damascus.
[845] I redefine my narrative I'm Frederick Douglass I can't harbor hate although they never loved us nah I tell my guys I miss them they and die conditions Trying to survive in prison praying they don't die in Dixon Bro said send them some pit to me without straying bitches Back in America they treat us like the Aborigines Original man they tried to white out our history As if the first universities wasn't Egyptian Lawyer Hill said it best is just miseducation And section 8 is just modern day segregation I'm drinking from the whites only fine in the youth They heard the cage birds sing so I bought me a coop part of the roof It can shine in the summertime when mama said be home before 10 I had my number nine thugging outside with them hooligans ditching school again The rack was my holy land like the tribe of judanem persecuted at home Like Philistines and Hebronis I'm staring past the wall from a rooftop in Bethlehem Remind me of the project calls in Lawless Gardens It's the same if you go back to Africa Marcus Garvey A people without knowledge is a tree without roots I'm a walking contradiction I'm in St. Laurent boots.
[846] Mobbing, standing on the west side with Chimmy Fred Hampton, about to catch a red eye back to my bed in a mansion.
[847] Yeah, when they hip hop turning the hip propaganda.
[848] They killed Dr. Sebi, they make meals off of cancer.
[849] Their businesses keep us addicted to pharmacists so we too preoccupied with prescriptions for politics.
[850] Give a mass incarceration, lead the children botherless.
[851] I'm the voice of a generation, we won't be solilins.
[852] The Bullwark podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.