Tim Miller: We Told You So

[0] Well, thank God it is Friday.

[1] And thank God that I am joined once again by Tim Miller.

[2] I was telling my wife, Tim, just a few minutes ago.

[3] I am so glad that I have Tim on the podcast today because there's so much going on.

[4] And I think that you and I are probably, you know, in the same lane on our reaction to the debate slash the mugshot.

[5] I mean, we have to start with the mugshot, okay?

[6] Oh, so satisfying.

[7] Talk to me about it.

[8] Talk to me about it.

[9] It's just so satisfied.

[10] The presidential portrait.

[11] The first presidential portrait of its kind.

[12] It's been a long time coming.

[13] You know, it really has.

[14] I mean, for us, eight years now.

[15] But really, even before that, you know, he's been a criminal for a long time.

[16] The people he screwed over at Trump University, people he screwed over other places.

[17] He's been a con man and a criminal his whole life.

[18] And we knew it.

[19] We said it.

[20] And, you know, It's been kind of this one long, slow rolling, unsatisfying, I told you so.

[21] I was hoping you were going to say it first.

[22] If only they had been warned, what did you tweet out?

[23] You know, never trump from the jump?

[24] From the jump.

[25] Guys, we told you this eight years ago.

[26] And that was my thought this morning.

[27] I'm looking at the mugshot.

[28] And I say, you know, what a twisted, bizarre, tangled road this has been.

[29] I mean, there's been so many chapters, you know, so many clowns and cowards and co -conspirators, but it all comes back to Donald Trump.

[30] And it was always going to end this way, wasn't it?

[31] I mean, you elect someone like that.

[32] Yes.

[33] You know, a wannabe mob boss, you know, a serial fraudster, liar, and, you know, hey, shock that it ends this way.

[34] Yeah.

[35] I mean, anybody that knew anything about Donald Trump would have known that it would have ended somewhere like this.

[36] I mean, did we know we were going to get 91 felony counts in the storming of the capital?

[37] You know, no, the particulars.

[38] But no, you knew it was going to end in a fucking flaming dumpster fire of disaster and here we are and it's just so you know there's a lot of you know what of the impacts and what you know there's a lot of other ins and outs and what have you's like this is just an absolute unmitigated disaster for the republican party that is going to have ripple effects forever right this stuff is like his mugshot is never going to go away these guys complicity is never going to be away the whole parade of mugshots i mean i was enjoying everyone I was the Trump one I was worried it was going to be a little disappointment, but Rudy and any of his chief of staff and people were bringing back the old pictures of Haldeman's mugshot from, you know, and flashing back the Meadows, Haldeman comparison, which was satisfying.

[39] And Jen Alice and Sidney Powell, I'm still waiting for Jeff Clark's, but it was needed.

[40] But, you know, I guess the only one thing that cuts the other way for me on this is like we do kind of feel like we're at the point now where everyone that's going to jump off the ship has jumped.

[41] You know, usually on.

[42] On each of these inflection points, there's been an exit ramp that, like, far too few people have taken, but a couple have taken.

[43] But there, nobody's taking any exit ramps yesterday.

[44] Nobody's saying, you know, none of, nobody who is.

[45] You mean the politicians, the political class types and everything?

[46] Yeah.

[47] Yeah.

[48] You know, let's come back to this a little bit later because, you know, there are some, there are some polls out there suggesting that, you know, despite our default setting of nothing matters and he could shoot somebody and all of that stuff, that he could set, you know, live monkeys a fire in.

[49] Yeah, no, I'm not saying, I'm not talking about that.

[50] Yeah, I mean, that's like about the political class.

[51] Okay, right.

[52] So, but, you know, and of course there's all these, you know, the whining about the weaponization of the Justice Department.

[53] And the point that I made in morning shots this morning is, you know, if you know Donald Trump, this was always coming, but also this is a result of his choices.

[54] This is what he wanted.

[55] I mean, there's an alternative reality.

[56] I mean, he chose to lie about the election.

[57] I mean, he could have behaved like every other president in U .S. history and conceded and allowed the peaceful transfer of power.

[58] Instead, he chose to orchestrate a coup and, you know, he chose to defame election workers and he chose to try to intimidate officials into stealing votes.

[59] It was his choice to form a criminal enterprise, right, and conspired to defraud the government.

[60] It was his choice to summon the mob.

[61] I mean, all of these things.

[62] It was his choice to steal the classified documents and then ignore the subpoena.

[63] It, you know, it was his choice to, you know, try to, you know, erase the tapes and all of this.

[64] And frankly, and I guess this is like, you know, Tim, I'm sorry, we've had this conversation.

[65] To your point, this is also the Republican Party's choice because they had so many opportunities to say no. They could have impeached and disqualified him.

[66] And I have to say that what an amazing moment at that debate when they were all asked, you know, the candidates for President of the United States, were all asked for the show of hands, whether they would support Trump even if he was a convicted felon.

[67] and then six of them raise their hands.

[68] Two of them sort of, you know, awkwardly that that moment, you know, Ron DeSantis looking around, like, what is everybody else saying?

[69] Maybe ending up being the only thing that ends up being memorable from that debate.

[70] We can talk about the debate more, but DeSantis' slow hand raise feels like it might be the thing that has legs out of all that.

[71] On the weaponization really quick, before we get to that, though, I just, I know our listeners know this.

[72] It is important to say it.

[73] Just how preposterous it is.

[74] And if anything, Merrick Garland was too timid, as you've covered, quite, yeah, quite extensively.

[75] But like, Mike Pence doesn't have any mugshots.

[76] He hasn't been arraigned.

[77] He hasn't been indicted.

[78] Bill Barr hasn't been indicted.

[79] Ron DeSantis, nobody's coming for him for, you know, the firing of prosecutors or anything like this.

[80] Like this whole, like the whole preposterous notion that these guys are coming after Trump because they're whatever, scared of him or whatever.

[81] it's like it's ridiculous i mean most of these democrats frankly are so stupid they want to run against trump and risk burning our entire society down um with it so there is no nothing to that and the fact that otherwise smart people otherwise ivy league educated people like ted cruz like continue to advance this just shows like the depth of the rot on this side and i think that is what connects for me the two things you brought up there just you have a republican party primary field where we're going to give Chris Christie 3 and Asa just in one percentage point where 96 % of the vote share is with people who said that they would vote for a convicted convict where, you know, the vast, vast majority of Republican elected officials are advancing the obvious lie, you know, that this is some politicized, like, indictment.

[82] So somebody asked me, you know, if you were producer for Saturday Night Live, what would you do with that debate, you know, with the slow hand raise of, you know, Ron to Santa's looking around.

[83] The thought that comes to my mind is that, and you know, this is the problem of parodies these days, is that Brett Baer then actually asks a follow -up question.

[84] Well, okay, let's have a show of hands.

[85] How many of you would still vote for Donald Trump if he set baby monkeys a fire in the middle of Fifth Avenue?

[86] All the hands would go up.

[87] How many of you would vote for Donald Trump for president if he beat baby whales to death with the bodies of baby seals?

[88] And it would just keep, you know, escalating.

[89] And, of course, all the hands would.

[90] And you can picture on everyone, Vivek, getting more and more excited, raising his hand more fervently as, like, DeSantis looks around and being like, really, we're doing it again?

[91] We're doing it again?

[92] Okay, I guess I'll raise my hand again.

[93] Okay, I just want to just stop for a moment because every once in a while you need to underline things, you know, how extraordinary it is for the party of law and order.

[94] Because five minutes ago, Tim, it would have been the easiest question in the world because nobody would ever think of voting for a candidate who had been indicted, tried, and then convicted of felonies, found guilty of felonies by a jury of their peers.

[95] Nobody would have thought of endorsing or supporting that person, not for city council, the legislature, secretary of state, I mean, much less the presidency of the United States.

[96] I mean, this is like mind -boggling.

[97] If you just wanted just one moment that captures what has happened to the Republican Party.

[98] I mean, in one level, you know, the extent to which they're still in the thrall of Donald Trump, but also just the incredible intellectual and moral corruption that they're all up there on stage saying, yeah, convicted felon, actual criminal, yeah, we're okay with that.

[99] I mean, can you imagine this in 2005?

[100] Yeah, I was thinking about this reading your newsletter.

[101] And just thinking about the confirmation process, right?

[102] Like any confirmation, any official that gets appointed to the federal government needs to be confirmed, take out all the coup stuff, take out all the coup stuff, just the documents case.

[103] somebody that was indicted for this level of mishandling of documents would not get approved by the Senate for any office.

[104] Like, there's nothing that they would approve this person.

[105] Deputy Secretary of Commerce.

[106] Or hired by any public company, you show up to apply for the shift manager at Arbys with this rap sheet.

[107] You're not going to get the job.

[108] And it's just like, it is crazy.

[109] The moral bankruptcy is part of it, but all.

[110] And then also just the self -preservation element.

[111] The thing that just was astonishing to be on that stage on Wednesday was, I guess Nikki Haley kind of made the practical argument about how Donald Trump was the most unpopular politician in America.

[112] But nobody was like, guys, guys, we might love him.

[113] But have you seen this court date calendar next year?

[114] Like, are we really going to nominate somebody who's got to be sitting behind a table for a vast part?

[115] I guess he kind of flirted with that.

[116] Yeah.

[117] But, no, you're right.

[118] You're right.

[119] It's like, people, have we lost our mind?

[120] Do you know what we're about to do here?

[121] Okay, there's a lot of heavy stuff here, and I want to get to the debate.

[122] I want to get to Vivek and all of that stuff.

[123] But a couple of things.

[124] Number one, Donald Trump's weight.

[125] Donald Trump self -reports his weight.

[126] He says he's six foot three and two hundred and 15 pounds.

[127] I mean, for fuck's sake, Tim.

[128] Yeah.

[129] He could be Mack Jones, quarterback of the New England Patriots.

[130] You know, I saw that his basketball comp was this guy, Lou Dort, who's like the most muscled man at all the NBA, he plays for a funder.

[131] So that's not true.

[132] I'm just going with the fact that it's a typo and that it was 315.

[133] Yeah.

[134] You know, you think that it's got to be $2 .90, right?

[135] At minimum.

[136] You think that the Fulton County Court would have just been like, guy, you know.

[137] Come on.

[138] Okay.

[139] This is actually a document.

[140] Give us something in the ballpark here.

[141] I mean.

[142] Yeah.

[143] This is actually an official document.

[144] Yeah.

[145] I was disappointed in that, but I'm not going to.

[146] I'm not going to let myself get too disappointed because the lie is so obvious.

[147] The more intriguing thing was that he volunteered his hair as a strawberry blonde when it's more of like a burnt sienna for me. But maybe it's just because his orange scalp is like you can see his scalp going through.

[148] But a straw, he's not really a strawberry blonde, I wouldn't say.

[149] It was kind of an effeminate choice, even.

[150] Strawberry blonde.

[151] What was with the motorcade?

[152] I mean, you asked this really excellent question.

[153] What is the possible security rationale for 80 motorcycles flanking a loser who is being arraigned?

[154] I mean...

[155] This actually pisses me off.

[156] And also the media doing that they cannot freaking help themselves.

[157] They have to do the whole OJ slow -moving Bronco stuff.

[158] But what was with that motorcade?

[159] I mean, I don't know that there were 80 motorcycles, but it was intense.

[160] There were so many motorcycles.

[161] And then it was in the New Jersey side and the Georgia side.

[162] You know, one of the guys.

[163] that replied to my tweet, you know, on there was like, it was like when the King of Zamunda comes to America and coming to America, you know, you would think that this was a G20 or, you know, the Queen of England going to visit her, you know, an imperial capital.

[164] Like, I don't, legitimately I don't understand the security rationale.

[165] I mean, like, do you think that there's going to be like an armed Antifa confab that comes after him?

[166] I mean, how many people could you possibly need to protect the president?

[167] But it seems more dangerous, right?

[168] Like if you're worried about a bomb threat or something, stucatic terrorism, everyone being able to watch this slow -moving motorcade, you know, parading through Newark and then parading through Atlanta, it seems like a bigger threat to me. I'm not a security expert, but it seems like a low profile.

[169] I'm George Conn, what you point out, tweeted, you know, there was a video of Obama going to something that he picked up at post -presidency.

[170] And it's two, yeah, it's two SUVs and one police car, no sirens, no nothing.

[171] And that seems like, that seems just from a security point more appropriate.

[172] But then just from the optics, like this thing, this pisses me off.

[173] He's not, he has no office, right?

[174] He's a former president.

[175] So, you know, he has secret service.

[176] We get that.

[177] But in America, just to start with, you know, we don't have royal kings and queens, right?

[178] Like, we have citizen leaders and they should be treated as such.

[179] And it's a long time rant of mine.

[180] Like, I just think, I think that politicians should sit at stoplights.

[181] Like, I don't understand why anybody.

[182] maybe the president for security reasons, but why anybody else gets a motorcade that doesn't sit at stoplights.

[183] We have citizen leaders in this country.

[184] We do not have royalty.

[185] And just the visual of this guy going to get arrested, you know, with that kind of pomp and circumstance, it fucking pisses me off.

[186] And then there's the taxpayer element of it.

[187] I just, I don't like it.

[188] And I don't know the real answer.

[189] Because he had the same treatment in New Jersey and in Atlanta.

[190] So is it the local police?

[191] Is it the Secret Service guy's doing him a solid?

[192] I genuinely don't get it.

[193] I think it's a legitimate question.

[194] I mean, this whole thing like, no one is above the law.

[195] You will be treated like anybody else.

[196] No. I mean, look, I understand that there are security concerns.

[197] But this was essentially, you know, a taxpayer -funded parade.

[198] And we know that Donald Trump really, really likes parades, doesn't he?

[199] Hey, folks, this is Charlie Sykes, host of the Bullwork podcast.

[200] We created the Bullwork to provide a platform for pro -democracy voices on the center of right and the center left for people who are tired of tribalism and who value truth and vigorous yet civil debate about politics and a lot more.

[201] And every day, we remind you folks, you are not the crazy ones.

[202] So why not head over to thebullwork .com and take a look around.

[203] Every day we produce newsletters and podcasts that will help you make sense of our politics and keep your sanity intact.

[204] To get a daily dose of sanity in your inbox, why not try a bulwark plus membership free for the next 30 days.

[205] To claim this offer, go to thebullwork .com slash Charlie.

[206] That's thebullwork .com forward slash Charlie.

[207] We're going to get through this together.

[208] I promise.

[209] So let's talk about the debate.

[210] I think you and I may have a slightly different take on all of this.

[211] Okay, good.

[212] How do you think Fox handled it?

[213] I mean, I thought, you know, this was supposed to be the redemption.

[214] I thought Joe Perdicong had a great newsletter.

[215] This was, this was a reminder that Fox News is still Fox News, and I thought it was kind of a shit show.

[216] What did you think?

[217] Just about the way the moderators handled it.

[218] The fact that they went a full hour without even mentioning the orge elephant not in the room.

[219] I mean, come on.

[220] Questions about country Western songs and UFOs?

[221] Yeah, the three -minute propaganda thing at the beginning was very strange.

[222] Like eight people walk out on stage, and then there's like a two -minute sizzle reel about how Joe Biden's the worst president in American history.

[223] And then they play the preponderance of the Richmond North of Richmond song.

[224] for everyone to sit there and listen to.

[225] Like, while all eight of them just stand there, I don't know.

[226] There was something communist about that.

[227] Like, I just, I don't know.

[228] It was very strange.

[229] I thought the most telling thing about Fox's treatment of Trump is like the crowd is booing.

[230] And at one point, you know, Brett has to turn around and calm everybody down.

[231] And he's like, you know, I know we all want to move on from this.

[232] I know we all want to get on to other things.

[233] And it's like, do we though?

[234] He has about half of the primary electorate right now.

[235] There's this whole, like, farce that gets perpetuated in the, you know, polite society, conservative media world where it's like, you know, it's just those deranged never Trumpers and the New York Times that are just an MSNBC that's obsessed with Trump.

[236] And we want to talk about other things.

[237] We're going to get on to serious matters like, you know, whether kindergartners are ready to read about the Stonewall riots and, you know, Vait Pence.

[238] And it's like, I don't think that that's right, actually.

[239] It's Republican voters.

[240] I would love for Donald Trump to just go the fuck away.

[241] I'd love for him to fall into the sea and disappear forever.

[242] I'd love to never have to think about him again.

[243] It's Republican voters that want him.

[244] And so they might not be happy that they have to talk about all the bad things that he did.

[245] And I'm sorry for them that they need their binky.

[246] But to not talk about the guy winning by 40 points in the first hour is to apologize for it to the crowd when you have to bring him up.

[247] And the whole thing's preposterous.

[248] I mean, especially because, I mean, Donald Trump's decision not the come is basically an FU to Fox News.

[249] It's an FU to the RNC and to Republican voters and to the other people on the stage.

[250] But, you know, this has been the pattern, right?

[251] That the response to being humiliated and slapped by Donald Trump is to say, thank you, sir, may I have another one?

[252] Yeah.

[253] Instead of pushing back on him.

[254] Just like nobody made the practical case against him about the arrest, like we were talking about him earlier, nobody tries to do the, this guy's a wuss.

[255] He's a wuss.

[256] He can't even come out here.

[257] Yeah.

[258] I was hoping that Christy would say, by the way, we are here, you know, doing this.

[259] You know, where is the coward who won't even face this?

[260] Yeah, a little baby won't even come.

[261] Give him the empty podium treatment.

[262] You know what I mean?

[263] Like, do something.

[264] But thank you, sir, when I have another is exactly the vibe.

[265] All right.

[266] So this was the Vivek show.

[267] I think the one thing that united everybody on that stage, the one point of unity is they all loathe Vivek.

[268] They think that he's a fraud, that he's a fake, and they're all right about all of this.

[269] and they're just sick and tired of him.

[270] But the crowd seemed generally to like him.

[271] He's the one, he's got the buzz.

[272] Now, again, we may disagree, but I thought there were kind of, if there were two lanes, the Maga lane and the Normie, you know, donor lane, clearly Vivek won the Magalene.

[273] He speaks fluent Maga.

[274] I mean, he hit every single one of those buttons.

[275] I'm going to argue later that I thought Nikki won the Normy lane, but let's talk about Vivek because there's a guy who has been just, throwing feces up against the wall for, you know, several weeks.

[276] You've seen him, you know, how entertaining he is.

[277] I mean, he is, he's gifted.

[278] He's a gifted and therefore even more dangerous demagogue, but he's out there talking about, you know, 9 -11 being an inside job, January 6th being an inside job.

[279] He embraces every bat -shit crazy conspiracy theory about Ukraine policy, you know, more Trumpy than Trump on appeasement, give Taiwan to the Chinese, you know, let Vladimir Putin win.

[280] I mean, what's the downside, defund Israel.

[281] And yet, Tim, he is the new hotness.

[282] He is the new rock star for the MAGA right.

[283] You feel like there's a trajectory line, right?

[284] I mean, since you've done Trump, should we be surprised that the next man up is not, say, Mike Pence, that the next man up is this, you know, shallow, utterly shameless demagogue Vivek Ramoswamy.

[285] Yeah.

[286] So just really quick on the merits of what he's saying.

[287] Did you see the clip from after the debate where he's asked about Ukraine and he's talking about how, you know, actually us cutting a deal with the Russians is the best thing for Ukraine because if we don't, then some warlord is going to take over from Zelensky and they're going to turn into Afghanistan.

[288] It's just like, he's a buffoon.

[289] That's just at rank idiocy and offensive and the Pope Zelensky stuff, a total charlatan on this stuff.

[290] And he's up there just machine gunning, like conspiracy nonsense.

[291] Like the one that caught my ear that I didn't see anybody else to talk about was he's like, you know, one way to resolve our crime issue is we need to bring back insane asylums.

[292] Did you catch that?

[293] Oh, yeah.

[294] He's like, yeah, he's like, we've been shutting down our mental institutions.

[295] We've got to bring those back.

[296] And it's like, okay, well, that's a hot take.

[297] You know, we need more comps.

[298] We need qualified immunity for them so they don't get sued.

[299] And then we need to give them the right to lie.

[300] people up in the looney bin.

[301] That's great.

[302] That's the freedom first agenda right there.

[303] But I think maybe he overstepped on some of that stuff.

[304] And I think that his personality is more grading than Trump's.

[305] But just directionally about what the people want in the party.

[306] And not everybody, but what a big portion of the party wants.

[307] On the Ukraine thing, the other hand raised question, when Brett Baer is like, should we stop sending money to Ukraine, Vivek shoots his hand up.

[308] I mean, it's coming out of his shoulder.

[309] Way up.

[310] Yeah.

[311] He's done.

[312] He didn't give a DeSantis sort of little alligator arm thing.

[313] He was up there like me, me. Yeah, tiptoes, me. No one else on their stage reads their hand.

[314] Okay.

[315] In recent Paul, 71 % of Republicans are with Vivek.

[316] So this was a little reminiscent to be of Trump in 2016 when people are like, this guy's a clown, he's saying conspiracy stuff, and that was true.

[317] But there were also a handful of issues, immigration, Muslim ban, Iraq war, where he was the only one on a big stage saying something that people in the crowd agreed with.

[318] And so I'm not saying that everyone should pander and change their view on Ukraine.

[319] I'm just saying that if we're in reality about where the party is, that that's good for Vivek if he's the only one on a 70 % issue on the side of the 70.

[320] And then there are six people rolling on the side of the 30.

[321] And then Ron DeSantis does the alligator arms thing and kind of tries to do, well, you know, the Europeans should pay more.

[322] And so he tries to tiptoe on both sides of that whole thing.

[323] So, you know, and then there's six on the side of we should give Ukraine more money, which is, you know, a decent chunk of the party, a quarter of the party, 30%.

[324] You could replicate that on some other issues, too.

[325] You're right.

[326] That's a reality check that, in fact, he knows, you know, where all the erogenous zones are for the right.

[327] Yeah.

[328] And he has flipped.

[329] I mean, he has flipped.

[330] Like, his criticisms of Trump in his book were like, oh, he is a baby like Stacey Abrams.

[331] And I didn't like the tariffs.

[332] And he's like, the spending was too high.

[333] And that was just in a book that he wrote like two years ago.

[334] And he's trashed all that.

[335] But he is learned from Trump.

[336] He's gotten on the road.

[337] He listens to what the people want.

[338] And now he's just like, oh, okay, well, I can adjust.

[339] I can just give these people unfiltered Candace Owens.

[340] Like, that's easy.

[341] None of these people have any memories whatsoever.

[342] So did you see what your old friend, Elise Stefanik, tweeted out today?

[343] Oh, no, I've missed that one.

[344] All in caps.

[345] Trump won.

[346] One what?

[347] You know, I mean, here's somebody who, again, you know, got this great educational pedigree who was once considered a rising star among the, you know, thoughtful right?

[348] You work with her at the RNC.

[349] Her transformation has been, you know, to absolute, complete, shameless shell.

[350] I'm just watching how many of these people have just completely shed everything that they used to be and believe, you know, starting with J .D. Vance and Lindsey Graham.

[351] It's like there's some weird drug out there that they have to go in the room and they get the juice or something.

[352] You know what I'm saying?

[353] It's just, you know, so Vevac in some ways is, well, of course it's going to lead to somebody like this.

[354] Oh, yeah.

[355] And this is the other thing that just, and I want to get into Nikki next.

[356] but this is a related topic.

[357] And there were some things that I liked about the stage in my not my party this week.

[358] I talked about how Nikki was surprisingly good for me. And so was Penn. So there were things I didn't like both raised their hands and said they voted for convicted convict, for example.

[359] But there are some things that I liked, which we can talk about.

[360] The thing that I get frustrated with is I saw a lot of, there was some conventional wisdom out there, and particularly in the center right world that was like, there was some refreshing elements of this debate that this is what the party could look like under Trump.

[361] Like there's one weird bag of guy, but there's a lot of relative normies.

[362] there, and then there's the same just kind of straddling.

[363] And it's like, well, wait, the stage was like that because Trump wasn't there.

[364] If Trump died, if Trump had a heart attack, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think the field would be this field, right?

[365] I think that there would be other people trying to fill that Vivek would not be alone.

[366] There would be other people trying to fill the Trump lane, because that's where the majority of the party is.

[367] And Ben Shapiro did this tweet yesterday.

[368] That was like, the party is 35 % MAGA, 20 % MAGA adjacent, 25 % Reagan, 20 % never Trump.

[369] And I'm like, I wish.

[370] If that was true, the stage would make sense, right?

[371] Because it's kind of a competitive.

[372] It's like 55, 45, 45 mega traditional.

[373] But like that's not what it is.

[374] It's like 65, 35, 35 or 70, 30.

[375] And so that is a thing that I just think is sobering.

[376] And Bill put this well, I think on Thursday night for bulk plus subscribers, when he was like, 75 % of the party is going to be with the three worst candidates or 80%.

[377] So, like, that is, that's the concerning thing.

[378] And I think that that, like, is some context about the Vivek situation.

[379] Before we get to Nikki, who is the biggest loser on the stage, did you think?

[380] Tim Scott for sure.

[381] Okay, that's what I thought.

[382] He was weird.

[383] He disappeared.

[384] Totally.

[385] I mean, again, he proved what people know.

[386] My friend, Peter Hamby writes for Puck, I just wrote this article like a month ago.

[387] It was just like, I don't think that these donors that are giving Tim Scott money have met Tim Scott.

[388] Like, he's a nice guy.

[389] He's fine.

[390] You know, obviously he's way too licksbiddle about Trump, but interpersonally, he's a nice guy.

[391] But like, he doesn't have these performing skills.

[392] Like, this is a reverse tokenization effort.

[393] So I put somebody up that they could feel good about.

[394] But it's like, he just didn't have it up there.

[395] And so I just think that Larry Ellison just lit.

[396] 60 million totally on fire for no reason.

[397] I'm also also confused what Tim Scott's thing was.

[398] Remember when he said he agreed with Mike Pence?

[399] It's like, okay, so now you're not going to be VP.

[400] It's like, why are you running just because some rich guy gave you 60 million and you had nothing better to do?

[401] Just like the motorcade, I genuinely do not understand.

[402] If anyone is listening and knows why Tim Scott is running for president, please let me know.

[403] Because I assumed he was running for VP, but now he's never going to be VP.

[404] I had the same assumption.

[405] And of course, you know, if he was not running for VP.

[406] This was a great opportunity for him to be the, hey, give me a second look.

[407] I'm the non -Trump, acceptable candidate.

[408] And he just faded away.

[409] I mean, he spoke for about eight minutes.

[410] By the way, I'm totally bored now talking about Ronda Santos.

[411] Ron DeSantis is really, really bad at this.

[412] Okay, have we done this?

[413] But, I mean, clearly that was not the debate that he wanted or were needed.

[414] And, you know, talk about a guy who is just not comfortable in his skin.

[415] So you're a veteran of these debates.

[416] It was Ted Cruz for me. I don't need to go on.

[417] It was Ted Cruz again.

[418] Now, remember, Ted Cruz finished second.

[419] And it was kind of a distant second.

[420] But, you know, he hit his marks.

[421] He said that mostly the things the MAGA people like, you know, the awkward hand raised is going to be bad.

[422] He has weird facial expressions.

[423] He's kind of an awkward person just like Ted Cruz is, and his likability factor is low.

[424] But he is minimally acceptable for people in all these lanes to the extent that, you know, you want to call him lanes.

[425] And so, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if polls come out next week and he gained a point or two or something.

[426] You know what I mean?

[427] I'm expecting that Vivek's going to overtake him, though.

[428] What do you think?

[429] I mean, with the polls next week, who's in second place?

[430] I think that you'll see some for both of them.

[431] I put out a tweet that I was like, I bet you'll see one poll that has Vivek in the high teens and DeSantis in the low teens.

[432] That's my priors.

[433] We'll see.

[434] Maybe that's wrong.

[435] Remember, DeSantis was in the 20s and his lost altitude.

[436] So, you know, can you win some of those people back?

[437] Sure.

[438] I think that Vivek gets some momentum for sure.

[439] Nicky does.

[440] He needed to really regain alpha status, you know, and regain, oh, oh, right.

[441] This is why we liked him, you know, the migrant guy.

[442] And he didn't do that.

[443] And he was fine, you know, the National Review people liked him, but they liked him already.

[444] Yeah.

[445] Of course they did.

[446] I just thought that by the end of the debate, he felt like an afterthought.

[447] Okay.

[448] So let's bring me to Nicky.

[449] I actually was very, very surprised by her performance.

[450] I have to do admit that, I mean, I've been, you know, quite critical of her.

[451] I wrote a piece called the Unbearable Lightness of Nikki Haley.

[452] When I was like, you know, gaming out in my mind what I thought might happen at this debate, I wasn't even thinking about her.

[453] And she comes out right away with that statement about spending of all things, you know, this high lob, you know, ripping fellow Republicans, you know, calling out Donald Trump raising $8 trillion in debt.

[454] And that was the moment I thought, okay, so she has decided that she's running for president, not for vice president, and she's going to call them out.

[455] I thought she was really strong on Ukraine going after Vivek.

[456] I thought Vivek dominated that stage until that moment.

[457] And I think if you listen to the crowd, there was a turn.

[458] Now, it doesn't change the fact that it was his dominant night, but feel free to disagree with me here.

[459] But I think a lot of that, and maybe they're irrelevant, maybe this doesn't make a difference.

[460] Maybe there is no donor class.

[461] Maybe there is no Normie class at all.

[462] Maybe there is only 30%.

[463] But the folks who've been sitting around going, you know, we need somebody else because DeSantis is so awful.

[464] The people who are on the phone to Glenn Yonkin or hoping that Brian Kemp gets into the race.

[465] On Thursday morning, didn't they wake up going, hey, we've got to give this Nikki Haley a second look?

[466] Yeah.

[467] And that's why the real big winner of the debate was Nikki Haley's political consultants.

[468] Because they are now going to get to cash.

[469] in on some TV ads that they didn't think that they're going to have the money for.

[470] And so I want to congratulate those guys and the new pool they're putting in in Bethany Beach.

[471] Because they are the real words.

[472] No cynicism here.

[473] Okay, I'll be here in us for a second.

[474] It was refreshing to hear her about Ukraine to give just a in touch with reality position about abortion.

[475] Even if you don't agree with all the particulars, I thought that it was directionally good to have her a woman up there saying that.

[476] and like offering like at least some kind of reality -based position on on how to balance different contingencies on abortion, the spending thing.

[477] But again, let's just say, and I think that this could be possible, right, that she coalesces the Scott vote, the Christie vote, her own, you know, the little ones and twos of the Aces and the Will Hurd altogether, maybe even takes one or two of the Normie National Review types who are with DeSantis and they pop over.

[478] Like, what's her ceiling?

[479] 25.

[480] Sealing?

[481] Like, ceiling, ceiling?

[482] 28, right?

[483] It's just, I just don't.

[484] What did DeSantis have at his peak?

[485] Like, 28, 29.

[486] I'd have to look.

[487] I don't have it in front of me, but something around that.

[488] But the thought with DeSantis was always that he could unite the tribes, you know?

[489] This is the fundamental issue with the anti -Trump effort, right?

[490] Which is, I was actually talking to a guy that's working for a super PAC, trying to beat Trump.

[491] and still a Republican.

[492] And I was like, test me out on this.

[493] But I think that the persuadable vote, if you say that Trump has this 35 % rock hard base, right?

[494] Like, to me, the persuadable vote then, the remaining 65 is basically split down the middle of MAGA and Norm, right?

[495] Like 30 .30.

[496] And he was like, eh, it might be a little better than that.

[497] It might be 35, 25.

[498] I was like, okay.

[499] But still then, then that puts the peak up at 35.

[500] You know, when you're doing the math here, it's like you have to get into the MAGA world somehow.

[501] You've got to get some percentage of those people.

[502] And, you know, maybe Nikki can find some MAGA women who like the fact that she's a woman.

[503] She does do pretty well on Sarah's focus groups on that stuff.

[504] But Trump hasn't really started attacking her yet.

[505] I think that the, oh, we need that Joe Biden isn't giving enough money to Ukraine.

[506] We need to cut spending, cut entitlements.

[507] I don't think this is the party for that anymore.

[508] There's a strong minority of that within the party, but I just don't think there's enough people there to do it.

[509] Going back to previous prime And we've seen in the Republican primary, you know, a strange phenomenon where, you know, Michelle Bachman has her moment, right?

[510] Herman Kane surges to the top of the pack.

[511] Newt Gingrich is all hot, you know, after the debate in South Carolina.

[512] There was the Rick Santorum moment.

[513] And then, of course, these things fade.

[514] Vivek strikes me as the kind of guy who's going to burn very, very hot and very bright, but burn out because the more scrutiny he gets, the worse it's going to get.

[515] And, you know, he's going to get a time in the barrel, not just from the media, which is not going to be vetting him, aggressively, but from fellow Republicans who thoroughly detest him.

[516] So I don't know that he is, that his bump is going to be sustainable.

[517] I think that it's got a short fuse on it.

[518] On the other hand, Nikki Haley, I think, has the potential for more staying power.

[519] I mean, she is substantive.

[520] I mean, she's been all over the place.

[521] We've all written about her and how disappointing she is.

[522] Are you sure people want substantive?

[523] Well, that's an interesting question.

[524] But at least in terms of if the donor class, does, you know, start calling her up, she'll have more staying power.

[525] And the more attention she gets, the more people are going to say, okay, you know, this is, you know, a strong woman.

[526] This is somebody who is worth listening to.

[527] She makes a lot of sense.

[528] And she's strong and she's gutsy.

[529] And here's my other point.

[530] It had to occur to some people after Wednesday.

[531] Can you imagine what a general election matchup between Joe Biden and Nikki Haley would look like?

[532] If you're a Democrat, you cannot be relishing that prospect.

[533] And if Democrats see how bad that would be, some Republicans are also going to come around to thinking, well, wait, we could have another Biden -Trump matchup.

[534] or what if we put a youngish woman who's still very much in her prime, by the way, up against Joe Biden?

[535] Yeah.

[536] It's kind of a nightmare scenario.

[537] Look, I'm just sort of gaming this thing out.

[538] I'm not saying that she's going to win because the numbers are the numbers and the Republican Party is the Republican Party.

[539] But if I'm a Larry Ellison and I've just burned through all this money for Tim Scott and that's not going anywhere.

[540] And I'm thinking, wait, if she was the nominee, what would that look like, Tim?

[541] Yeah.

[542] I mean, if you're sitting in the Biden White House, what do you think would run it against her?

[543] So I actually kind of see the other set of this.

[544] Christian Vanderbuk had a good article for the board this week about what exactly is the plan?

[545] Like, even for DeSantis, he was talking about this is DeSantis, not Nicky, but, you know, let's say he eked it out.

[546] Let's say that he had, this is before the debate.

[547] Let's say he had a great debate, and he wins over Trump and the Cox's narrowly.

[548] And then in South Carolina, everybody unites behind him.

[549] And he wins narrowly.

[550] and then they kind of split delegates on Super Tuesday, and he's in the delegate lead slightly.

[551] Then what?

[552] You know, like, where do they go from here?

[553] Have they thought about that?

[554] Like, do they think Donald Trump's going to concede to him?

[555] Do they Donald Trump's going to give the keynote at the Ron DeSantis Convention in Milwaukee next summer?

[556] And so, anyway, that is even more intense for Nikki.

[557] I think that there's a huge chunk of the party that would never go for her, never.

[558] And I think you end up with a RFK or Vivek -style third -party candidate if Nikki is the non -Mex.

[559] And maybe not.

[560] I don't see people getting in line for her.

[561] Like that 35 % rock hard Trump base have you looked at that DeWan Register poll, I guess it was 28.

[562] And I think Iowa was a bad state for him.

[563] I'm laughing.

[564] I'm in Louisiana.

[565] My new home state, there was a poll that came out that had Trump 75, DeSantis 10 recently.

[566] And so it's like, where is Nikki getting votes in Louisiana?

[567] Like she's not, right?

[568] She's just not.

[569] Like they don't want her.

[570] I thought that was really a good analysis because there's been a lot of magical thinking.

[571] Like something, something happened.

[572] And then Trump will graciously concedes.

[573] You know, Trump, you know, gives the nominating speech at the convention.

[574] This will never happen.

[575] You know, the magical thinking always has to end with and then Trump dies.

[576] I mean, there's, there's really no other way because he is never going to admit that he lost.

[577] He will never graciously lose.

[578] He will never go away.

[579] But I noticed, Tim, that you did dodge my question.

[580] Okay, I'm sorry.

[581] Okay, because since we're doing the what if, what, what, what, what is.

[582] Now, by the way, I totally accept.

[583] the premise that it's really hard to imagine this.

[584] But what would a Joe Biden, Nikki Haley matchup look like in the general election?

[585] Yeah.

[586] I'm not saying it's going to happen.

[587] Sure.

[588] See, this is the vulnerability.

[589] I think Joe Biden can beat Donald Trump because he's Donald Trump.

[590] But what if the meteor strikes?

[591] What if the Big Mac takes him out?

[592] What if there is a younger candidate?

[593] If I'm a Democrat, I think that matchup just has to be terrifying to them.

[594] I guess.

[595] So this is my point is that I just don't think that we would ever see that for this reason, which is that if Nikki, if Nikki were the likely nominee, I don't think Joe Biden is running again, right?

[596] I think that the Democrats would have had a primary or even Kamala would be the nominee and we could, you know, game out fantasy politics, what Kamala versus Nikki would look like, but it's different.

[597] I just, I don't think you're ever seeing a stage where it's Joe Biden and Nikki Haley on that stage because I think that, you know, there'd be a MAGA third party candidate and or Joe Biden would get out of the way, right?

[598] But sure, yeah, you're right.

[599] Like in a, on Earth 7.

[600] Earth 7 .0.

[601] I think that's a huge problem for Democrats, right?

[602] Because Nikki Haley is, whatever, 48 or however old she is, and Joe Biden, you know, is going to look like the past up there.

[603] But I think that for a variety of reasons within the Republican Party and within Joe Biden's strategic thinking, there's no path to that.

[604] But the Biden re -election campaign does seem to be premised on the assumption that's going to be Donald Trump at this point.

[605] Pretty good assumption.

[606] I mean, he's winning by a lot.

[607] Well, you know, this is really the.

[608] just watching the agony of the anti -anti -Trumpers, you know, who had, you know, are stuck with like, we have to beat Joe Biden, but we can't go along with Donald Trump.

[609] And they projected so many qualities onto Ron DeSantis.

[610] There was so much wishcasting there.

[611] It's really been a struggle for them.

[612] They're not going to go along with Vivek, but this realization seems to be sort of settling in on them that the magical thinking, I think in Desantis world, the anti -anty -Trump world, was the assumption that these criminal indictments would take care of Trump for them.

[613] And so it is still an amazing moment, even for people within that world, that Republicans look at these perp walks and these mugshots and say, yeah, we're fine with that.

[614] We are okay with that.

[615] Okay, you know, he set baby monkeys on fire, but like, who doesn't?

[616] Their agony takes us back to my very first answer in this question, which is just our slow rolling, I told you so.

[617] It's a lot.

[618] It's like they hate us so much.

[619] And for people who don't know, sometimes we just throw out the anti -antees, people don't know what we're talking about.

[620] But these are the people that really dislike Trump privately, politicians, the right -wing commentators that dislike Trump privately, but have just continued to stick with them because the Democrats are bad and the Democrats are scarier and Elon Omar and, you know, transgender youth or whatever the excuse of the day is.

[621] And they're going to find themselves now for like the ninth, 10th straight year having to suck it up and, you know, just be Donald Trump's, you know what, again, apologist.

[622] The thing is, like, they hate us because, like, we are a mirror up to their choices.

[623] And they, they would, you know, say they have TDS and they're Democrats now and whatever.

[624] But it's like, had they listened to us in 2015, had they listened to us in 2016, 2017, impeachment one, the 2020 election, after the stop the steal, impeachment two, they had so many fucking off ramps.

[625] They had so many off -ramps, and it was so obvious.

[626] It wasn't hard to figure out that they were going to end up here.

[627] It was so obvious that they were going to end up here.

[628] And they refused to take every single off -ramp.

[629] And now they are stuck on this hellship with the Flaming Monkeys and Donald Trump's mugshot.

[630] And I just, I don't feel bad for them.

[631] I kind of enjoying their pain, I have to admit.

[632] Are we going to do the T -shirt?

[633] Come on.

[634] We're going to do the T -shirt, right?

[635] Yeah, we were whenever Trumpers were right, T -shirt?

[636] please yeah this is tim's brilliant idea that do you have the mugshot and said and what what does it say never trumpers were right the bulwark dot com there's a slightly more obnoxious would we could say we told you so oh we told you so we told you so the bulwark dot com either of those are acceptable to me we are going to have that t -shirt because i want that t -shirt okay great let's do it i want to walk down main street in cedarburg with a big mugshot we told you so or you know, never Trump from the jump.

[637] Just some version of that.

[638] I really want that.

[639] So anyway, by the way, you will sometimes throw yourself on this word.

[640] Did you watch any of the Tucker counter programming with Donald Trump?

[641] This was the one time I have not thrown myself on this word.

[642] I watched a clip show put together by somebody and that was that.

[643] So I've seen somebody's highlights.

[644] Low energy, tired, weird.

[645] Philip Bump, though, is debunking some of these, you know, crazy numbers that are coming out.

[646] And basically, look, it turns out one in three, likely Republican Prime voters watched the debate, which is a pretty big number.

[647] One in six watched all of it, all two hours.

[648] Only one in 20 watched Trump talk to Tucker instead.

[649] So let's just put this in some context.

[650] And that may actually be good for Trump because, you know, he's continuing to retcon January 6, you know, talk about, you know, the riot, the attack on the Capitol, you know, in which you had all of these police officers bloodied and a death toll as this beautiful day, this wonderful picnic of patriotism.

[651] And he is all in on all of this.

[652] And of course, we're going to get a lot more of that because he is absolutely committed to making January 6th, his attempted coup, into a great proud moment in American history.

[653] And Republicans ought to realize that that's going to be their platform in 2024.

[654] And I think that's an interesting stat because I'm genuinely intrigued by the poll, not the very first ones, but like maybe two Fridays from now, by two Fridays from, now.

[655] I think that we're really going to know a lot, you know, because it will have been in the water for a week.

[656] And, you know, you got to let this stuff trickle down to the two -thirds of people that didn't watch the debate.

[657] But these guys had about as good a chance as they're going to have.

[658] They had a third of the party watching them without him there at all, right?

[659] Free shots.

[660] And then he gets a rain the next day.

[661] Now, everybody's going to see that.

[662] Everybody's going to see the mugshot.

[663] It's number four.

[664] People are going to be able to, you know, judge, like, whether that's someone that they're going to want to put up.

[665] If there is no meaningful gain, What else is left to happen that would it be a game for people?

[666] I know that the, you know, delusional, irrational, irrational confidence people will say, maybe when they get to the voting booth, right?

[667] Then they're finally going to get serious.

[668] But that was about as clean as shot as they're going to have.

[669] No, no, no. You and I have lived through this before, right?

[670] Yeah.

[671] No, I'm sorry to bring this back, but I'm sure that you remember back in 2015 at exactly this point, everybody would say, well, there's, you know, five months.

[672] No votes have actually been cast.

[673] and lots of things.

[674] It's way too early.

[675] In fact, it was already too late.

[676] All right, but I do think that it's important to provide a little bit of an antidote to the, you know, the more he's indicted, the stronger he gets.

[677] Because, yes, within the Republican Party, that may be true.

[678] But, hello, that's still a minority right now because you're getting one poll after another suggesting that this is not helping him, shockingly, in a general election.

[679] I'm reading this from Politico.

[680] A new political magazine Ipso's poll.

[681] provide some bad news for Trump, even as he remains the clear frontrunner for the Republican nomination, the cascading indictments are likely to take a toll on his general election prospects.

[682] Amazingly, we have not repealed all the laws of political gravity.

[683] The survey results suggest that Americans are taking the cases seriously, particularly the 2020 election case, and that most people are skeptical of Trump's claim to be a victim of a legally baseless witch hunt or an attempt to weaponize law enforcement, public sentiment in certain areas, including how quickly to have a trial and whether to jail Trump, is moving against the president when compared to previous Politico polls.

[684] So right now, most respondents want to trial before the general election.

[685] Most Americans right now, Trump is guilty in the eyes of half of Americans.

[686] Do you believe that Donald Trump is guilty of the alleged crimes?

[687] Total, 51 percent, yes.

[688] No. 26 percent among independence 53 percent yes he's guilty only 20 percent no and that's before the televised trial that is before one court date after another so you know once again even though there are those polls showing him running neck and neck with joe biden guys how does a year of litigation and arraignments and trials and testimony how does that that that helped Donald Trump win swing states in a general election.

[689] Isn't that the heart of it right now?

[690] Yeah.

[691] And the front page of the Atlanta Journal of Constitution this morning is to mugshot with books.

[692] You know, I used to work in campaign PR.

[693] That's not really what you're generally going for for your candidates, is to be on the front page of the biggest swing state paper with your mugshot.

[694] Generally not seen as helpful.

[695] You know, think back to the old W -D -UI controversy right before the 2000 election.

[696] We seem so trivial now, right?

[697] But, you know, the other bizarre thing about all this, we did a little gimmick on the next level, on the next level podcast this week, where we were like, the jail or the White House are really the two main options for this person in the next two years is one of the most bizarre dichotomies, I think, in the world history.

[698] It's just, I was looking at that same poll, I guess it was in your newsletter.

[699] It was like 50 % of the country wants him jailed.

[700] I'm part of that 50%.

[701] And it's like, it's like 50 % of the country wants him jailed, 41 % wants him to be the leader of the free world.

[702] It is just, I mean, it's, it's kind of hard to wrap your head around.

[703] I know it's our job to help people wrap their heads around that, but that's a tough way.

[704] Yes, it is a dichotomy.

[705] And yeah, you're not the crazy ones.

[706] Okay, point of personal privilege, Mr. Miller.

[707] Please.

[708] So, I think I've told you this before, but this is actually happening.

[709] I'm going to have a teenager in the house again.

[710] Congrats, dad.

[711] But it wasn't really sure until right.

[712] before we started this podcast.

[713] My grandson, Elliot, who's French, wants to come and live with us and attend school here in Mechuan, Wisconsin.

[714] There were some paperwork, obviously.

[715] There's some, you know, passport stuff.

[716] And so he and his mom, my daughter, you know, took a train to Paris to go to the U .S. Embassy today.

[717] And if things were going to go wrong, it was going to go wrong today.

[718] He's coming tomorrow.

[719] Okay, so I don't need things to the last minute.

[720] So at 4 .30 this morning, I roll over, you know, hear my phone buzzing.

[721] And there is a picture of him, and I put it in my newsletter, outside the U .S. Embassy holding his passport.

[722] He's got it, and so he is coming.

[723] This is actually going to be happening.

[724] I'm going to have a teenager in the house for the next semester.

[725] I'm a soccer dad.

[726] I'm going to be a soccer dad again.

[727] I mean, like, man. Football dad, I think.

[728] Well, it's soccer here.

[729] A reality check.

[730] Like, when I have a request, I think, you know, I don't know anything about your grandson, so feel free to reject this.

[731] But maybe around Christmas, I want our Friday podcast to end with, I want to interview him.

[732] I want like five minutes to, I want to ask him about being a, you know, a Parisian in Mechuan.

[733] Because I am fascinated by what it would be like to be an eighth grader who just gets dropped into Mechua in Wisconsin.

[734] You know, we could just a little break from the parade of horribles.

[735] Because I'm very intrigued by this.

[736] Well, that's a deal that I will at least talk to him about and see whether it's comfortable doing that.

[737] I mean, I think a podcast is kind of low pressure.

[738] Well, no, it's low pressure because, I mean, we don't have like cameras around us or anything like that.

[739] So, yeah, and it will be fascinated to know because, and again, I am so out of touch with what the culture, the social media culture is.

[740] I mean, it is, I think it's hard to be in middle school.

[741] Was your middle school years difficult?

[742] My middle school years were fucking awful.

[743] Can you imagine going through middle school with social media now?

[744] No. I don't want to catastrophize it, but, you know, it's one thing for, you know, people to have clicks and talk about people behind their back.

[745] But now, of course, it's so much more difficult, you know, one jerk with it with an Instagram account.

[746] And I don't know.

[747] It does seem, I have to tell you, the school system has been so responsive and they are so supportive.

[748] And they're sort of aware of all of the problems.

[749] And so, you know, they will have a support network to help him.

[750] His English is extremely good, but they're going to have people who are going to help him with the, with the English and with math and things, because you don't know what you don't know.

[751] I'm sorry, Troy, I've been told that our school system is in complete tatters and disarray, and the only thing people care about is critical race theory and they don't actually teach anything anymore.

[752] Does that not seem right?

[753] Not in Mechuan, Wisconsin.

[754] I have been reliably informed the same thing.

[755] I'll report back, but it doesn't appear to be the case in Mechuan, Wisconsin.

[756] So you have a great weekend, Tim Miller, and I'll talk to Elliot about this and say that at least put the request And again, probably not until the end of the semester.

[757] Sounds good.

[758] Congratulations.

[759] We'll talk to you soon.

[760] And congrats on the mugshot.

[761] Congratulations to all of us for the mugshot.

[762] To all of Americans.

[763] If only they had been warned.

[764] If only they had been worn.

[765] But Tim, keep pushing for the T -shirt.

[766] And if we can get coffee mugs.

[767] I'm on it.

[768] That would be pretty cool too.

[769] Okay?

[770] So use your extensive influence on all of this.

[771] Thank you all for listening to this weekend's bowl.

[772] work podcast.

[773] I'm Charlie Sykes.

[774] We will be back on Monday, and we'll do this all over again.

[775] The Bullwork podcast is produced by Katie Cooper and engineered and edited by Jason Brown.