The Bulwark Podcast XX
[0] Welcome to the bulwark podcast.
[1] I'm Charlie Sykes.
[2] It is Tuesday, and it may be a day late, but we are certainly not a dollar short.
[3] Will Salatin back on the podcast.
[4] Will, how are you doing?
[5] I'm okay, Charlie.
[6] I, you know, usually you have me in stitches on this show, and I decided to get a head start.
[7] I already have the stitches.
[8] I was in a basketball game on Sunday, and I got elbowed, so I'm going to be working on a goatee to cover up the stitches on my face.
[9] Okay.
[10] I mean, was it a, was it a flagrant foul?
[11] Was it?
[12] Was it.
[13] I mean, what?
[14] You know, to add, you know, it's supposed to be a non -contact sport.
[15] I'm just mentioning it.
[16] Yeah, supposedly.
[17] Well, what happened was I was defending this guy and I decided he wasn't going to the basket and he decided he was.
[18] So I believe to add insult to injury, I would have been called for backing up during the confrontation.
[19] So how many, you actually literally have stitches.
[20] You went to the hospital?
[21] I mean, you went to the urgent care center?
[22] Yeah, just went in and then they said, oh, yeah, you need stitches for that.
[23] so but uh i know i'm i'm fine it's i'm all sewed up and i'm going to be back on the court next sunday okay so where do you want to start today this is one of those those target rich environment stories i actually was working on on a piece which i i didn't write for today the the the just the casual acceptance of anti -semitism by american conservatives which you know on under 2 .0 would be kind of an historic new chapter in a very very old book but there's so much else that's going on here.
[24] We have this new New York Times -Sienna poll that basically says that voters really are concerned about the death of democracy, but they don't appear inclined to do anything about it.
[25] We had senatorial debates in Ohio and Utah.
[26] I know you were watching the Utah debate in which I think barbs were traded, right?
[27] Yes.
[28] Yes.
[29] Is that the cliche?
[30] As an old hotliner from the early days of internet political journalism, we always said, headline barbs traded in debate yes so -and -so did what they had to do the bar was low but they cleared it you know and i'm also wrestling with the fact that one of the reasons why i think it feels like we've taken crazy pills every single day is that our politics are really beyond parity i mean really when you think about it the whole herschel walker badge story is so ludicrous and it won't go way and it feels like it's a metaphor for everything that's going on everybody knows this story right he's holding up the badge where he says which makes him a cop you know and as i i said yesterday look you know um you know once i found a decoder ring in a box of cracker jacks does that mean that i'm a cia agent i don't know and now did you see what he's doing now they're actually the campaign is doubling down on this they're they're printing a thousand of these badges to hand out as sort of campaign bling because it's not a cringeworthy, you know, joke.
[31] It's like, hey, this is cool.
[32] Yeah.
[33] Well, I think what's happened is that today's Republican Party, in this case, represented by Herschel Walker in Georgia, has managed to capture an audience of people who just don't care, who just don't care about what's true or not true, what's fake or not fake.
[34] And so this is all a marketing opportunity for him.
[35] He's brought out this badge that sort of pretends he's a police officer when he isn't.
[36] And his people have figured out, hey, this will get us more of our voters because our voters don't care.
[37] That's right.
[38] And it is a perfect example of what's, you know, what's happening in politics?
[39] You know, how much of it's fraudulent?
[40] And then once you're called on the fraud, what do you do?
[41] You just simply double down.
[42] You make it an asset, right?
[43] You you hug it as closely as possible.
[44] So, okay, let's start with, again, there's so much to talk about.
[45] Can we start with the low -hanging fruit as a way of easing ourselves into all of this?
[46] And the lowest of low -hanging fruit always is Eric Trump.
[47] Just to remind people, back in 2019, Donald Trump's other fails son, Eric, explained why it was a great idea to hold like the G7 summit.
[48] at one of Donald Trump's golf courses because it didn't cost anybody anything.
[49] This is what Eric Trump had to say back then.
[50] When they do G7s, and this is one other thing that people don't ever kind of give us credit for.
[51] Anytime the government comes and, you know, if my father travels, they stay at our properties for free, meaning it's like, you know, cost for housekeeping effectively because you actually have to legally charge government something.
[52] So everywhere that he goes, if he stays at one of his places, the government actually spends, meaning it saves a fortune, because if they were to go to a hotel across the street, they'd be charging $500 a night, whereas, you know, we charge them like, you know, 50 bucks.
[53] Now, Will, it will shock you to learn this is a complete and utter lie.
[54] As we learned yesterday from Carol Lennox writing in the Washington Post, Carol Lennon, who actually wrote the book about the Secret Service, former President Donald Trump's company charged the Secret Service as much as five times more than the government rates for agents to stay overnight at Trump hotels while protecting him and his family, according to expense records newly obtained by Congress.
[55] In one case, they were charging agents $1 ,185 a night to stay at the Trump International Hotel in D .C. And they spent this kind of money actually also, you know, watching over Eric and Donald Jr. So it is it is the grift and the lies all the way down.
[56] Yeah.
[57] So remind me, wasn't it at like Turnberry in the Scottish Golf Course where they were, they were, they also built what they made.
[58] I can't remember what the company, but basically the Trump family managed to extract more money for its property by directing government business to this thing.
[59] And it never ceases to amaze me the number of Trump supporters who talk about how he gave up his salary.
[60] He gave up like, so it's like 400 ,000 a year, right?
[61] He made way more than that back in self -dealing.
[62] He is so selfless.
[63] He wants nothing.
[64] He is sacrificing his billionaire lifestyle for people like me. Yeah.
[65] And everything we've learned from what we can glean so far about his finances is he's always been an operator finding ways to monetize, you know, everything.
[66] And he's on ways to monetize the presidency, and this is one of them.
[67] He is.
[68] I was asked about this on one of the cable shows yesterday, and, you know, obviously it's outrageous.
[69] just another example of self -dealing.
[70] And I may have disappointed everybody when I said, but put this into some context that this whole story about the ripping off of the taxpayers, the using the Secret Service is basically a piggy bank, you know, charging taxpayers, you know, $1 ,100 for a room that they're authorized to spend, you know, $200 a room for, which, by the way, you can do, believe it or not.
[71] This whole thing is going to end up as less than one paragraph in the book of Trump Grift, which will run about 10 ,000 pages.
[72] In a 10 ,000 page book, this may be a footnote because there's just so much.
[73] And, you know, the zone is so flooded with this kind of self -dealing shit.
[74] So I, what can, you know?
[75] Yeah, so we were talking about basketball earlier.
[76] And this reminds me very much of the like 1990s, New York Knicks.
[77] There was a strategy in basketball.
[78] Nobody said it explicitly, but they did it.
[79] If you foul on every possession, the referees stop calling it.
[80] That's good.
[81] They just get used to it.
[82] And it becomes, okay, it's called physical.
[83] They're playing a physical style.
[84] They're not.
[85] They're fouling by the rules, right?
[86] And that's what Trump does, right?
[87] The Trump family is fouled on every possession and by the, you know, so as reporters, we're just like the referees, we're telling you again, they're fouling, but nobody cares because they're just used to it.
[88] All right.
[89] So yesterday I wrote about, you know, Mitt Romney refusing to endorse Mike Lee.
[90] And I want to talk about what's going on in Utah, which I think is just a fascinating story.
[91] Evan McMullen waging this independent campaign, actually doing way better than anyone thought he was going to be.
[92] But of course, there's a lot of heavy breathing about Mitt Romney's lack of party loyalty.
[93] You know, how dare he not endorse a fellow Republican?
[94] And there's, you know, I mean, there's a lot of pressure on everybody to get in line, right?
[95] You know, it's like, I will support the Republican nominee, no matter who it is.
[96] And if you refuse to say that, then you're obviously a rhino cuck, right?
[97] But have you noticed something, Will?
[98] That rule applies to everyone with one exception, one notable exception, Donald Trump.
[99] Okay, so over the weekend, the Republican Senate candidate in Colorado named Joe O'Day, who, by the way, is in a competitive race there, goes on CNN and distances himself from Donald Trump.
[100] He wants to talk about other things.
[101] So Joe O'Day is in this very competitive race.
[102] There are pundits out there that think that this may be a sleeper race, that the control of the Senate may actually be determined by a Republican upset in Colorado.
[103] I'm not saying that's going to happen.
[104] I'm just saying that this is one of the reasons why people are paying attention to the Colorado race.
[105] So Joe O'Day goes on CNN and says this.
[106] Do you think what happened on January 6th should disqualify him from.
[107] being president again?
[108] Look, I believe that the January 6th was a black eye on the country.
[109] I've been very vocal that I thought he should have done more to keep the violence from heading towards the capital.
[110] Anybody that was violent at the capital or tore something apart, they should be held accountable.
[111] We've got processes in place that hold people accountable.
[112] And we need to move the country forward.
[113] I don't think Donald Trump should run again.
[114] I'm going to actively, I'm going to actively campaign against Donald Trump and make sure that we've got four or five really great Republicans right now, Rhonda Santis, Nikki Haley, Tim Scott.
[115] They can run and serve for eight years.
[116] I'm going to do my job as a U .S. Senator to make sure that they have good campaigns in the primary here.
[117] So we have a good selection of candidates for 2024.
[118] Okay.
[119] So Trump obviously heard about this O'Day saying he would actively campaign against Trump in the primary, I'm guessing.
[120] Trump lashes out calling O'Day a rhino.
[121] Maga doesn't vote for stupid people with big mouths.
[122] Oh, jeez.
[123] I'm sorry.
[124] The irony just burst every blood vessel in my head there.
[125] Maga doesn't vote for stupid people with big mouths.
[126] Good luck, Joe.
[127] Trump wrote in his social media platform.
[128] So again, here's Donald Trump throwing a competitive Republican under the bus because he committed the cardinal sin of not kissing his orange ass.
[129] Yeah, so this clarifies what the term rhino means, right?
[130] Republican name only just means somebody who doesn't support Donald Trump.
[131] There are no principles involved.
[132] And it in turn clarifies what the Republican Party is.
[133] What is the defining principle of the Republican Party?
[134] It's not any issue.
[135] It's not any value.
[136] It is loyalty to Donald Trump, as evidenced by the fact that you have to swear loyalty to Trump.
[137] that's the apostasy you can't do, right?
[138] You can't say it.
[139] And the fact that Donald Trump himself can do whatever he wants, right?
[140] Every religion has a prophet.
[141] And the prophet is the guy who gets to wake up one morning and change old and just announce something and everybody has to go with it.
[142] And that's Donald Trump.
[143] So this is what's left of the Republican Party, is loyalty to this guy.
[144] Yeah, and I want to stick with this point because every other Republican is being told you have to eat, you know, whatever shit sandwich is out there.
[145] So Glenn Yonkin goes and he campaigns for Kerry Lake.
[146] You have Chris Sununu, a reasonable Republican governor of New Hampshire, you know, has to support this guy, Boldick, another one of the election denier, because because it's party loyalty.
[147] It's a binary choice.
[148] You must vote for whatever Republican, you have to support Herschel Walker because, I mean, even with all the stuff with Herschel Walker and the abortions and the lying in the hypocrisy and the profound stupidity and the abuse, you have to support.
[149] support him because it's all R versus D, right?
[150] Because otherwise, the country will fall into the hands of the evil Democrats.
[151] And yet here's Donald Trump basically saying, yeah, screw Joe O'Day in this winnable seat in Colorado because he crosses the one uncrossable line.
[152] It's just whatever.
[153] I'm sure there'll be heavy breathing from, you know, the Washington Post resident ethicist, Henry Olson, about this, who always gets indignant whenever somebody like Mitt Romney commits an act of deep and terrible disloyalty, not supporting Mike Lee.
[154] So do you want to talk about what's going on in Utah?
[155] Oh, totally, totally.
[156] Okay, so here's a little bit of a soundbite from the debate last night, Evan McMullen with Mike Lee, who, you know, really when you think about it, could have easy, by the way, there's a great profile in the bulwark today by A .B. Stoddard, who makes the point that Mike Lee could have just cruised to re -election if he had not become just a command.
[157] complete Trump sycophant, had not become, you know, a purveyor of the big lie.
[158] And Evan McMullen, I think, has surprised a lot of people by really taking it to Mike Lee.
[159] And here's just a little bit of a soundbite from last night's debate.
[160] I was one of the people trying to dismantle this situation, trying to stop it from happening.
[161] Because I believe in this document written by the hands of wise men, raised up by God, to that very purpose.
[162] I followed it.
[163] I studied it.
[164] And I defended it to a T. We'll have 30 seconds here in a moment.
[165] For you to suggest otherwise looks right in the face of truth and in the face of the Constitution.
[166] How dare you, sir?
[167] Mr. McMillan, you have 30 seconds.
[168] Senator Lee has been doing this thing with his pocket constitution for the last several years.
[169] Senator Lee, it is not a prop.
[170] It is not a prop.
[171] Senator Lee, the Constitution is not a prop for you to wave about, and then when it's convenient for your pursuit of power to abandon without a thought, that's what you've done with that.
[172] Okay?
[173] If you're committed to the Constitution, then stand up for our free and fair election, stand up for the peaceful transfer of power.
[174] You did, so you voted to certify the election in the last moment.
[175] In the same way that someone knows a plot that isn't quite working out ought to abandon it, that's what you did.
[176] Ooh, okay, so Will, you actually watched this debate.
[177] So tell me. What's going on?
[178] What do you think?
[179] To me, this race is different from every other Senate race in the country.
[180] It's different from all the governor's races, too.
[181] So what we have here is instead of having a conventional Democrat, we have Evan McMullen, who is, as far as I know, historically a Republican, he's certainly conservative.
[182] He doesn't occupy most of the conventional Democratic positions.
[183] So he sort of neutralizes the traditional Republican arguments that, oh, they're socialists, they're the devil, they're going to take over and have the government invade your life.
[184] So he takes that stuff away, and that gives him the opportunity to focus this race on the one thing that most differentiates him from Mike Lee.
[185] And that is the obsequiousness to Trump and the betrayal of democracy.
[186] This debate was, I mean, the most forceful denunciation I have heard of any politician for their complicity in Trump's coup attempt.
[187] He went after, he's got, remember, Mike Lee, as you pointed out in morning shots yesterday, he's got to, he's got to, a couple of specific things that tie him to this.
[188] One is that Mike Lee tried to help get the false slates of electors, the fake electors together for Trump.
[189] And the other thing was that Mike Lee is the guy who got Sidney Powell, the crazy quack lawyer, into the White House, right?
[190] So he was very and then he started pushing John Eastman.
[191] I mean, he had this track record having fingerprints on all of the crazies, at least early on.
[192] Totally, totally.
[193] And so Evan McMullen is going at him and I've, you know, he's called it, he's in the debate.
[194] It's like, Charlie, this was like one of those 19th century debates where you're attacking the honor of the other guy in this very eloquent way.
[195] He said it was the coup attempt, the most egregious betrayal of our nation's constitution in its history by a senator.
[196] You betrayed your oath to the constitution.
[197] I mean, it was everything that I wanted said about Mike Lee and Ted Cruz and a bunch of other people.
[198] And it was said in this very eloquent, uh, frank way by a guy who cannot be attacked the way Democrats can be attacked.
[199] So on balance, I mean, look, neither you or I are from Utah.
[200] And I, I make no claims to understand the intricacies of Mormon politics.
[201] But is this enough?
[202] Because as you point out, this is unlike every other race.
[203] This is not Democrat versus Republican.
[204] This is not progressive versus conservative.
[205] Evan McMullen is really making this about, democracy.
[206] Is that going to be enough?
[207] Well, I think the answer is probably not.
[208] Probably not because we have this national phenomenon of people just not caring enough about the democracy issues.
[209] It doesn't take away from the fact that what Evan McMullen is saying is, first, it is the most important issue.
[210] You know, if you can't, back to basketball, you can't have the game if people don't respect the referees.
[211] The whistle gets blown.
[212] You have to honor that or the whole thing collapses.
[213] And democracy, of course, is not a game.
[214] It's very serious.
[215] And the consequences of people not following the rules are that much worse.
[216] But people just don't seem to care enough.
[217] You're right that Utah is a little bit different.
[218] And look, I'm a huge admirer of the LDS Church and the values of the people in it.
[219] And one of those differences is that even though this is a very conservative state that by all rights should be supporting a Republican president or Republican senator, these folks, a lot of them recognized that Donald Trump is a person of very low character, and that very low character has very serious consequences, including the undermining of democracy.
[220] So Mike Lee in this debate, Charlie, I have not heard, have you heard in any other debate in any other race, the Republican nominee fleeing from Donald Trump like Mike Lee had to flee?
[221] At least twice in this debate, he said that there were only two other senators who voted less with Donald Trump than I did.
[222] that that's crazy to me i mean it's not crazy it's saying but it's unusual well also i mean it's this this is again underlines his problem because uh you know not only did mike lee push the big lie not only did he vote unlike mitt romney to acquit um to acquit donald trump you know he he there was this just bizarre moment and i keep coming back to this this was actually during the 2020 campaign where Mike Lee, who at one time was considered a serious kind of intellectual, constitutional scholar, gets up on the podium and compares Donald Trump to a hero from Mormon scriptures.
[223] And I'm not familiar with this, but he goes, to my Mormon friends, my Latter -day Saint friends, think of him, Trump, as Captain Moronai, who is apparently this righteous military commander who was angry with the governor because of their indifference concerning freedom.
[224] This is what Mike Lee said about Trump, the line -grifting, erratic, seditionist ex -president who tried to overturn an election.
[225] He seeks not power, but to pull it down.
[226] He seeks not the praise of the world or the fake news, but he seeks the well -being and the peace of the American people.
[227] Okay, well, you are a student of sycophantic politicians.
[228] You are a student of Lindsay Graham.
[229] Can you explain to me?
[230] you know how someone goes from the mike lee who stood on the floor of the convention in 2016 trying desperately to derail uh trump's candidacy to go from that to saying stuff like this what is the dynamic i mean i understand the transactional nature of politics i get that i guess i'm still puzzling through this desire to be a total lick spittle Okay.
[231] So I would give you two answers.
[232] The first is that Mike Lee is a lawyer.
[233] What he did after the 2020 election leading up to January 6th was, you know, there are a lot of guys who are smart in a lawyer way.
[234] And if they have a client, whether it's an oil company or a tobacco company or a president trying to engineer a coup, they will find a way to do what the client wants.
[235] And I kind of think that's what happened to Mike Lee, right?
[236] He's talking to John Eastman or whatever.
[237] He's talking to Sidney Powell.
[238] How can I construct an argument?
[239] How can I, within the law, technically, find a way to undo this election?
[240] So he just applied his lawyer mentality to that.
[241] The other answer is he's got kind of the form.
[242] This is true of a lot of the Trump worship in the Republican Party.
[243] There are a lot of people who are nominally religious.
[244] They think of themselves as religious.
[245] But what they have is the form of religion.
[246] They don't really have the substance of it.
[247] And so they just, what they have is worship.
[248] And they find ways to deify, to go.
[249] glorify whoever it is.
[250] It could be Jesus, but for these people, it could just as easily be Orange Jesus.
[251] It could be Donald Trump, and they don't care that Trump is the polar opposite of Jesus.
[252] So compare and contrast, Mike Lee with Lindsay Graham.
[253] Well, Mike Lee is a little bit more obsequious.
[254] Can I say that?
[255] Yeah.
[256] Really?
[257] Absolutely.
[258] Yeah, that is.
[259] I was not expecting that answer.
[260] Okay.
[261] No, I mean, I'm trying to think of this because, you know, Lindsay Graham had things he actually cared about.
[262] He wanted troops in Syria.
[263] He wanted troops in Afghanistan.
[264] And when Donald Trump crossed him on that, he drew a line.
[265] I'm trying to think of what Mike Lee has actually drawn a line on, Charlie.
[266] Can you?
[267] Well, as he was saying in the debate, I mean, he's voted against something.
[268] He didn't he vote against the emergency, the emergency declaration to shift money to the border wall?
[269] Yeah, he, I think that's probably true.
[270] And that is a principled position, right, about the limits of executive power.
[271] So let's give him credit there.
[272] And that puts him ahead of Lindsey who was on the other side.
[273] Okay, so Lindsey Graham has, has lines, but like, so what?
[274] I mean, Lindsay Graham's a guy, if you cross this line, we're done, crosses the line.
[275] Okay, well, okay, this line, if you cross this line, I am really done with you, and yet there's no line that you can cross with Lindsey Graham, right?
[276] I mean, I think there are, but you know what, Charlie, what you're bringing up here, I think to me is that there are a lot of these politicians who have been complicit in the rise of authoritarianism in this country and in the rise of Donald Trump and in sustaining it.
[277] They do have issues on which they disagree.
[278] And as we're talking about this, I'm remembering from the debate, Mike Lee drawing some distinctions.
[279] His were mostly about, you were talked about executive power in the case of the wall.
[280] I was thinking about money.
[281] I mean, he voted against some of Trump's spending.
[282] So there are issues.
[283] What they have in common, Graham and Lee and the others, is the commitment to Trump the man, right?
[284] They're committed to this guy.
[285] So even if they disagree with him on the issues, the problem, and this is what the Mormons in Utah get, if the man is bad, if the president is a bad man, he will do bad things.
[286] And that becomes more important than any issue on which you distinguish yourself from him because he just proceeds from one offense, from one aggression to the next.
[287] So, again, I'm going to confess not fully understanding all of the dynamics of Mormon politics.
[288] However, I continue to be struck by the contrast between Mormons and white evangelical Christians.
[289] The white evangelical Christian church has gone all in with Donald Trump, you know, has decided that character doesn't matter, that as long as you are going to give us these various things, we will come up with rationalizations and decide that your personal.
[290] all, you know, goodness or evil becomes irrelevant.
[291] The Mormons seem to have, you know, a much firmer grasp on the importance of character.
[292] Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
[293] Mitt Romney would not be a senator from Utah and Mike Lee would simply be cruising to it to another term.
[294] So there is something different about the way that Mormons have reacted to the personality and character of Donald Trump versus evangelical Christians.
[295] And I frankly couldn't tell you what it is.
[296] I don't know if you have any insight into it.
[297] Well, it speaks well of them, however.
[298] It does.
[299] And it, you know, it's funny because Mormons get, you know, their caricatured as people who believe silly things because their scripture happened in America instead of the Middle East.
[300] But, you know, I belong to a religion that believes that a guy parted the sea and walked across, you know, there's a lot of, every religion has these stories.
[301] The difference, I think you're exactly right, though, about the difference.
[302] Mormons have this emphasis on character.
[303] It seems to be a cultural thing, not so much a scriptural thing.
[304] in the case of the white evangelicals, okay, they believe in the religion, but they treat religion in practice as a matter of team, of tribe, right?
[305] So they have the story about Trump being like King David.
[306] Okay, he doesn't follow any of our morals that we espouse, but he's on our side.
[307] He protects us against the other guys.
[308] The other guys are the atheists or the Muslims or whoever it is.
[309] And you remember what Trump just said about Jews, the line about how Jews need to get with it and defend Israel because Trump doesn't understand.
[310] Before it's too late.
[311] Yeah.
[312] You Jews.
[313] You Jews are so ungrateful.
[314] But what he doesn't, what Trump treats the Jews as your team Israel, right?
[315] You're supposed to be.
[316] And that's all it is to him.
[317] And Trump talks about Christians the same way.
[318] They're a team.
[319] And I think a lot of, unfortunately, a lot of white evangelical Christians treat their religion as a matter of team or tribe.
[320] And so anyone who stands, who defends them against some enemy, they'll support regardless of that person's betrayal of the values the religion purports to espouse.
[321] No, that is good.
[322] So the question about Utah, coming back to that question about would making democracy and the attack on democracy, you know, a centerpiece, would that be enough in Utah?
[323] And I think probably not, although it's extremely interesting to watch.
[324] And Evan McMullen is really doing yeoman service here.
[325] This is a good segue to this big poll.
[326] out today that everybody's talking about in the New York Times.
[327] I see it's at the top of their online page.
[328] Voters see democracy in peril, but saving it is not a priority.
[329] Okay, well, deep breath here.
[330] Voters overwhelmingly believe American democracy is under threat, but seem remarkably apathetic about the danger, with few calling it the nation's most pressing problem, according to a New York Times -Syana College poll.
[331] another deep breath.
[332] In fact, more than a third of independent voters and a smaller but noteworthy contingent of Democrats said they were open to supporting candidates who reject legitimacy of the 2020 election as they assign greater urgency to their concerns about the economy than the fears about the fate of the country's political system.
[333] Shorter version, Will, we are so fucked.
[334] So I guess we have to laugh about this, but it is really tragic.
[335] This poll, here's one of the numbers from it that killed me, 71 % of all voters in the polls said democracy was at risk, but 7%.
[336] That's 7 with no zero after it, identified that as the most important problem facing the country.
[337] And then, as you point out, you know, what was it of the voters said they were not at all comfortable voting for a candidate who denied the election?
[338] Charlie, I feel like we've had this democracy for 250 years.
[339] and we've settled into what I can only call democracy privilege, we just assume it's going to continue because we've had it.
[340] You know, I was recently in Spain, and I was shocked.
[341] I didn't realize Franco was in power there for like four decades.
[342] You know, we just haven't had that here.
[343] And, I mean, if you're a black American, you've experienced authoritarianism.
[344] You've experienced depression in this country.
[345] If you're white, it feels like you just, everything's been fine.
[346] We've gotten along.
[347] There was this, you know, you have this Tucker Carlson image of America in the 1950s.
[348] And everything's going to be cool so we can go on TV and undermine faith in democracy.
[349] We can challenge elections.
[350] We can refuse to accept the results.
[351] And nothing bad will happen.
[352] It does feel like a remarkable degree of complacency, doesn't it?
[353] That we take all of this for granted.
[354] It almost seems like when you look at those numbers, though, you know, the gap between the number of people who say, yeah, this is a real.
[355] serious problem versus those who actually care about it.
[356] It's almost like the issue of campaign finance reform that all the talking heads, you know, think it's really, really important and we need to talk about this and the editorial writers, assume the editorial position.
[357] But when it comes right down to it, you know, almost nobody goes to the polls and votes on this issue.
[358] And so for most Americans, democracy is this abstraction that when you ask them about it, they'll say, yes, this is a problem.
[359] but it is an abstraction to them unlike, for example, you know, what they're paying at the pump, what they're seeing in their cities, on the streets and inflation.
[360] And I know, by the way, that, you know, the one thing that our Democratic friends really truly hate is any sort of suggestion that they're not doing an ideal job at everything.
[361] But rather than denying that inflation is a serious crime or making fun of people who think that gas prices are high or, you know, citing statistics, actually crime is not that big a problem.
[362] They need to figure out ways to talk about it and to address the legitimate concerns of voters.
[363] And I'm not sure they've done that.
[364] But what's your take?
[365] I don't think they have.
[366] Let me, let me set that aside for just one second, because I want to come back to that in the context of Utah, which I think answers your point pretty well.
[367] There's actually in this election, denial stuff, there's kind of two layers of the problem.
[368] One is all the people who are just passive.
[369] They recognize there's a problem with denial of elections, but they just, they're not going to prioritize it in their voting, right?
[370] But there's a specific core of people who are, you know, the Trump supporters, the people who believe the election was stolen.
[371] And one of the things that really came home to me looking at this New York Times story wasn't so much in the data in the poll.
[372] It was they interviewed one of the respondents.
[373] And she says, you know, it's hard for me to believe that more of America's citizens would vote for Joe Biden than Donald Trump because Joe Biden is an idiot.
[374] Now, let's set aside her view of Joe Biden.
[375] It is this hard for me to believe thing.
[376] Charlie, can I just put forward an idea here that I'm starting to think that the election denial is, it's a problem in its own right, but it's a species.
[377] It's a subcategory of evidence denial.
[378] It's that the election results are evident.
[379] They're information that comes to you.
[380] The ballots were turned in.
[381] We counted them here's the result.
[382] And these people have fallen prey to the same thing.
[383] Donald Trump does, I have this belief about the way the world is.
[384] I will not accept any evidence that contradicts my belief.
[385] And so the ballots are just another thing that these people refuse.
[386] In other words, the problem that we ultimately have to tackle in this country is not a loss of faith in democracy.
[387] It is loss of faith in evidence or an unwillingness to accept evidence.
[388] And if we can solve that, we can go a long way towards restoring faith in election results.
[389] I don't know what you think of that.
[390] Well, I agree with you, but that strikes me as much more difficult to solve because the thing about belief and faith is that it's often non -falsifiable, right?
[391] If it was just simply a question of, okay, you know, were there, you know, 10 ,000 mules, was this machine tampered with?
[392] Well, you know, there is hope that you could actually show that, you know, there was no factual basis for this.
[393] But if it's a matter of faith and belief, much more difficult problem.
[394] don't you think?
[395] I agree.
[396] It doesn't.
[397] It's just the causality that I'm interested in.
[398] And I think you're right.
[399] It is, it's going to be very difficult.
[400] But let me come back to your point, because you asked about the issues that Democrats don't acknowledge.
[401] And part of what's so interesting about the Evan McMullen race is that McMullen does what he, he is the Charlie Sykes candidate, right?
[402] He's going out there and saying, I'm going to go after the denial of democracy, the denial of election results.
[403] That's the kiss of death.
[404] My apologies.
[405] So you and I agree.
[406] We're both pessimists about the affirmative part of McMullen's case.
[407] That is the, you know, his issue that he's going to try to run on here.
[408] But the negative part of what he's doing is kind of interested to me. That is he is taking away from Mike Lee, taking away from Republicans, the issues that they like to run on against the Democrats.
[409] You know, we're not going to talk about what Trump did because the real problem is you're a bunch of socialists.
[410] Evan McMullen's not a socialist.
[411] So in this debate, he's criticizing the American Rescue Plan, the $2 trillion of spending that he says, He agrees with Republicans that contributed to inflation.
[412] He criticized the student loan plan, said it's too big.
[413] It's a moral hazard, right?
[414] And it should have been narrowly done.
[415] And it should have been in consultation with Congress.
[416] A lot of things that a lot of conservatives agree with.
[417] Abortion.
[418] Evan McMullen is not down the line pro -choicer, right?
[419] I'm pro -life, but I'm moderate.
[420] I support contraception.
[421] I support exceptions, yada, yada.
[422] So he's taking away these issues.
[423] And I'm kind of fascinated to see whether this works.
[424] I don't know if it would vindicate the Charlie Sykes strategy, but he's trying it.
[425] No, I'm not actually looking for any vindication any time soon here.
[426] All right, let's talk about some of these other races.
[427] There was also a debate in Ohio last night between J .D. Vance and Tim Ryan.
[428] That's also a very, very close race.
[429] Obviously, you'd have to assume the Republican is favored in this race.
[430] But they had a number of barbs that were traded, including this.
[431] Let's play this soundbite from Tim Ryan.
[432] I ran against Nancy Pelosi, J .D. for leadership.
[433] and you have to have the courage to take on your own leaders.
[434] These leaders in D .C. They will eat you up like a chew toy, right?
[435] I mean, you were calling Trump America's Hitler.
[436] Then you kissed his ass.
[437] It is true.
[438] And then you kissed his ass, and then he endorsed you.
[439] And you said he's the greatest president of all time.
[440] Mitch McConnell gave you $40 million.
[441] to prop up your campaign.
[442] Peter Thiel gave you $15 million.
[443] That's $55 million, J .D. What do you think they want for that?
[444] They want your loyalty.
[445] And you proved that you'll kiss their ass too.
[446] And look, it's nothing personal.
[447] I'm just telling you, like, I've been in this business.
[448] It's tough business.
[449] If you think you're going to help Ohio, you're not.
[450] If you can't even stand up for yourself, how are you going to stand up for the people of the state?
[451] How are you going to take on the corporate interests?
[452] All the money you took are from the corporations who sent all our jobs overseas.
[453] Peter Thiel, $15 million, buddy, what do you think he wants?
[454] So, Will, Tim Lyne is one of the few Democrats who appears completely comfortable with playing a just full -throated populist.
[455] You are a toady of the interest politics.
[456] And he also keeps playing the hits, playing the hits, you know, the top 40.
[457] know the kiss -ass thing so what do you think of what do you think of that raise okay so charlie you just made me wish i'd watch that to be that's so i mean that's so beautiful you're a chew toy uh you're you kiss the chew toy is the chew toy is really that's i have i have to say you know i d off my hat to you mr ryan j d man as the chew toy i like it okay and then and then the the cherry on top is nothing personal having just Savage the guy.
[458] So it sounds to me like what Tim Ryan is doing is a kind of an experiment in.
[459] don't focus so much on which side we're on, although Tim Ryan is trying to position himself as a democratic populist as opposed to work, right?
[460] But he's saying, which of us has backbone, right?
[461] Choose your candidate by the character of the man. And I'm willing to stand up to the powers that be on my side.
[462] I'm willing to run against Nancy Pelosi.
[463] This guy has no backbone.
[464] I mean, do you think, Charlie, that there is a backbone vote out there that will set aside party and ideology and vote on that kind of character?
[465] Yeah, I just, I don't know.
[466] But this is one of those campaigns where I think it is getting to the nub of the issue.
[467] Like, who is J .D. Vance?
[468] Why is he there?
[469] Who paid for him?
[470] What does he actually believe?
[471] There was another exchange where Tim Ryan went after him for his praise of Alex Jones.
[472] When J .D. Vance said, Alex Jones is far more reputable source of information than Rachel Madd.
[473] And J .D. Vance says, I never said that.
[474] I never said that.
[475] Well, Ryan brings the receipts.
[476] You know, he put it in a tweet.
[477] There's videotape of him doing it.
[478] So he's tying him to the billionaire oligarchs.
[479] He's implying that he is a chew toy.
[480] He's reminding people twice in that one soundbite that this was not a fighter.
[481] He's an ass kisser.
[482] And he's linking him to these, you know, really deplorable extremists.
[483] Whether that's going to be enough, I don't know.
[484] But I have to say that if I was drawing.
[485] up a, you know, a strategy and I am not a consultant.
[486] I'm not Tim Miller.
[487] These would be the hits, the high points that I would certainly urge him to touch on.
[488] But whether it's enough, I don't know.
[489] In a year like this, I just don't know.
[490] It might be that the tsunami is so great that none of this actually is going to make a difference to the outcome.
[491] Yeah.
[492] I mean, it's two problems.
[493] One is it's the year.
[494] It's the time.
[495] It's a tsunami, as you point out.
[496] And the other is the place, right?
[497] Ohio these days is a difficult place for for Democrats to win.
[498] And Charlie, I think when this race is over, I don't know if Tim Ryan will win it.
[499] I don't think anyone will be able to say that somebody else could have done a better job or there was a better way to go about it.
[500] I think he will get the most out of this that can be got.
[501] I think, in fact, I think there are going to be a lot of Democrats looking at the Tim Ryan campaign, win or lose as a model, as a playbook for how to run in the Midwest.
[502] I agree with you.
[503] And you know, in the past, there has been this tendency in the part of Democrats to fall in love with candidates who really never had a shot.
[504] right i mean they they overhype you know candidates in in south carolina or in kentucky in the case of tim ryan in ohio i think they're underhyping the guy as far as i can tell because it's certainly being entertaining i'm you know let's give him that yeah and it's it's i'm remembering as we're talking the 2019 democratic primary debates for president and you see what happened to the various people who were in them you know where did pete buddidge go where did Kamala Harris go.
[505] And I'm thinking about Tulsi Gabbard, who just flaked out and became a Putin's, you know, was a Putin's dude, but became more of one and crosses over.
[506] And Tim Ryan, the both of them, both of them backbenchers, right?
[507] They were both barely in, barely in it.
[508] And Tim Ryan has become, to me, kind of a hero.
[509] And I know there are Democrats on the left who disagree with Tim Ryan about some issues, but none of them, none of them was going to come anywhere near keeping this as the race in Ohio as close as it is.
[510] I mean, I think all Democrats owe him a debt of gratitude.
[511] you'd win or lose.
[512] Yeah, Tulsi Gabbard, just going to spend like 30 seconds talking about her.
[513] I mean, it's certainly one thing to cross the aisle and say I've decided I'm more comfortable with Republicans, with Democrats, not a shock.
[514] But she's gone from an apologist for Assad in Syria to a toty for Vladimir Putin and now complete Maga.
[515] I mean, it's not just that she's moved.
[516] She is now campaigning for Blake Masters in Arizona and Carrie Lake.
[517] She's gone from being a, you know, somewhat eccentric Democrat to being full woolly fever swamp Maga.
[518] Yeah, and she's kind of a story in what happens if you have no backbone.
[519] We're in this polarized time, right, where if you leave one orbit, if you leave the progressive orbit as she did, right, either you have character like Tim Ryan does, like Evan McMullen does, and you're able to stake out your own position and reject whatever you disagree with on either side, or if you're Tulsi Gabbard and you just float, then you're just going to drift from one or you leave one orbit, you're going to go into the other.
[520] And now she's just become a Fox News apparatic.
[521] Yes, I can suck into this vast vortex of crazy where all of the incentives and, you know, she has figured out, you know, these are my new people.
[522] They will celebrate me. They will celebrate me as long as I say the crazy stuff.
[523] If I start to be, I don't know, a little bit reasonable or nuanced, I'm not going to get the clicks.
[524] I'm not going to get the likes.
[525] I'm not going to get the invites back on Tucker Carlson.
[526] So go full crazy.
[527] there is that story well now speaking of of going full crazy she is campaigning in arizona uh it's interesting the conventional wisdom has really seemed to congeal around the fact that uh carry lake is the uh is is the is the leading lady of maga of maga world that she is going to be a a maga superstar and that that against i guess my expectations earlier this year that she's likely to win in arizona um yeah i mean In Arizona, it was one of those states that seemed to be trending towards sanity, and you had so many Republicans, you know, prominent Republicans willing to say the big lie is a big lie, and yet they nominate Carrie Lake, who is, I mean, the woman's bat should, talented, but bat should crazy, or bat should crazy but talented.
[528] And what do you think?
[529] Well, yeah, it is a serious threat.
[530] And it's a serious threat because once I'll just speak for myself, once again, I have made this, this, I've succumbed to the.
[531] fallacy that because something is crazy, it won't happen.
[532] Yeah, no, I get that, yeah.
[533] So what's happened here, Charlie, and I'll just quote to you a poll because this is what I was looking at the last couple of days, some of the state polling, similar to that New York Times poll we were just talking about on indifference.
[534] So this is a poll in Arizona, the CBS, you got a poll two weeks ago.
[535] The question was, generally, do you want elected officials from Arizona to be people who say Joe Biden legitimately won the 2020 election?
[536] The answer is only 41 percent of the voters.
[537] Arizona said that they wanted that.
[538] 18 % said they wanted people who politicians who said that Joe Biden did not legitimately win.
[539] 41 % said doesn't matter.
[540] Do the math, 41 plus 18.
[541] That's 59 % of the people who are in play for Carrie Lake.
[542] And that, to me, is the underlying problem.
[543] The fact that she is nuts about election denial just doesn't matter to enough voters.
[544] Okay.
[545] So let's play a little soundbite because, of course, this really shouldn't come as a surprise where she was asked, well, what about your race.
[546] I mean, so far, we haven't seen a lot of Republicans who are willing to question other races.
[547] This, of course, has been, you know, one of the ongoing paradoxes that, you know, the same people who doubt that Joe Biden's win was legitimate, have had no problem accepting the legitimacy of other races for Congress or for Senate, but maybe that was temporary.
[548] So Kerry Lake has asked whether she would accept the results of the election.
[549] This is what Carrie Lake had to say.
[550] Will you accept the results of your election in November.
[551] I'm going to win the election and I will accept that result.
[552] If you lose, will you accept that?
[553] I'm going to win the election and I will accept that result because the people will never, the people of Arizona will never support and vote for a coward like Katie Hobbs who won't show up on a debate stage.
[554] Ooh, so now that goes back to your point earlier, Will.
[555] There's just this belief that I'm going to win because it's just, I cannot possibly believe a result.
[556] that has me losing.
[557] It's just not, it's not, it's not possible that I would not beat this woman.
[558] Same thing, right?
[559] Yeah.
[560] Now, let me give you a little bit of cause for optimism from that answer, because that's not an answer about the past, right?
[561] That's an answer about the future.
[562] Will she accept?
[563] And on that, the same CBS poll that I was just quoting to you, here's a different question.
[564] Would you prefer the next governor of Arizona be someone who tries to challenge and investigate Arizona elections when Democrats win?
[565] Same thing about challenge and investigate when Republicans win or accepts the results of Arizona elections.
[566] Whoever wins.
[567] 77 % of the voters of Arizona said they want someone who will accept the election results.
[568] So I am hopeful, I don't know if Katie Hobbs is up to this, the Democratic nominee, but if she can make the Kerry Lake insanity about the future, not about the past, about whether we can have a governor who doesn't accept election results, including the one in her own race coming up, then she has a shot at getting a lot more voters on her side.
[569] All right.
[570] So Katie Hobbs, I don't know her.
[571] I don't know much about her.
[572] What I do know is that she's all that stands between Arizona and this complete election denying a seditionist nut job.
[573] However, I also know that she is refusing to debate, which I have to say seems like a self -own that if you, and I talked to with Adam Kinzinger.
[574] I mean, Adam Kinzinger endorsed Katie Hobbs, a Democrat.
[575] And I asked him about this.
[576] And he said he thought it was a terrible mistake that she's not showing.
[577] If you're going to fight for democracy, if you think, you know, this is this, this existential fit.
[578] Well, then you show the freak up.
[579] You show up.
[580] So what is your thinking about this?
[581] Because Carrie Lake has made this into a huge cudgel.
[582] You know, what are you afraid of?
[583] Why won't you stand on a stage?
[584] Why won't you stand on stage with Carrie Lake?
[585] Okay.
[586] So to you and others who think that Katie Hobbs made a terrible mistake here strategically, I do.
[587] Okay.
[588] I call you optimists.
[589] That's not the, that's the optimistic scenario.
[590] Here's the pessimistic scenario.
[591] And I do not know this.
[592] But what if Katie Hobbs did the rational thing?
[593] What if she had private advice telling her, don't do the debate?
[594] Because in fact, you may think you, you sweet liberals, that debates are about arguing facts and that if you win on the facts, you will win the debate.
[595] In fact, Carrie Lake is an extremely compelling, charismatic personality on TV.
[596] and that she will win that debate because even though she is insane, people will be attracted to her.
[597] And Katie Hobbs is just not a forceful person, if you've ever seen her on TV.
[598] And maybe debates, you know, that's the pessimistic view, that debates are not in fact settling disputes, but that one of the reasons why Carrie Lake is doing so well and may do well in the election is because being attractive, charismatic, being a strong speaker, works.
[599] it's more effective, even if what you're saying is crazy.
[600] Okay, so there's no good scenario here then.
[601] What you're saying is that she, is that her advisors say she will clean your clock, you will be destroyed, therefore don't get up on the stage.
[602] And so when Kerry Lake says that Katie Hobbs is afraid to get up with her, she's right?
[603] Yeah, I mean, look, to be fair, I don't know if someone is advising Katie Hobbs to say this.
[604] Suppose they are.
[605] There is another way of looking at this.
[606] They're not telling Katie Hobbs to shut up.
[607] saying don't go on stage don't go don't do a debate because you'll lose in that format but what if they intend to make the same points through tv ads in which carry lake doesn't get to stand on stage and do her stick it seems like a net negative all right so we have a soundbite here from katie hobbs who's being asked about her position on abortion and i think that there's a lot of feeling that the abortion issue is a a real negative for republicans a real asset for Democrats.
[608] I think it is, and all the polls would suggest that's the case.
[609] This is in your wheelhouse will.
[610] So I want to get your take on all of this.
[611] But I'm not completely convinced that all of the Democrats have figured out how to talk about this in this campaign.
[612] It strikes me as a high lob.
[613] So let's play this Q &A with Katie Hobbs.
[614] And you tell me how you think she did.
[615] So can you clarify, do you support any legal limits on abortion in Arizona?
[616] Look, the fact is right now that we are under an extreme 15 -week ban that limits health care options for women who need them.
[617] There's the potential for a complete ban.
[618] Right now, that ban is in the courts, but under my opponent's administration, she would support a full ban.
[619] She's called this a great law.
[620] She doesn't support any exceptions for rape for incest.
[621] look, when you're talking about late -term abortion, that is incredibly extremely rare.
[622] And it's happening if that conversation is happening, it's because there's something that's gone incredibly wrong in the pregnancy.
[623] And politicians do not belong in that decision.
[624] But what do you support?
[625] What should the limits be?
[626] The decision about abortion should be between a patient and their doctor.
[627] Will.
[628] it's a terrible answer it's a terrible terrible answer this this by the way explains why she doesn't want to debate oh it's worse than that charlie oh once again you're an optimist if you think this is a katie hobbs problem this is a democratic party wide problem right it is yes banning abortions in all cases and raping and so that's all extreme and you want to run against that but the republicans have they've been telegraphing for months for years they're going to try to portray Democrats as being extreme on the other side.
[629] And you're being asked if you support any restrictions.
[630] And Katie Hobbs's answer is, you know, women don't get abortions until very late because of, you know, something has gone incredibly wrong with the pregnancy.
[631] That's true.
[632] And the answer to that is not to say, I don't support any restrictions.
[633] The answer is to say, I support restrictions to make sure that those are the only cases, right?
[634] We are going to have exceptions in the law to make sure that if something goes wrong with your pregnancy, you can get an abortion, even in the third trimester because it's medically necessary.
[635] And we're going to have, yes, I support restrictions that say you can't just get up and have an abortion on a whim in the eighth month, in the eighth month, because women don't do that.
[636] Just say, I'm willing to take what women understand morally that they're not going to do that on a whim, and I'm going to put that in law.
[637] A lot of voters would be comforted by that, and then you can make the case against the Republican extremism of banning all abortions.
[638] I agree with you there.
[639] Okay, so one last race.
[640] I usually have as my default setting the feeling that debates are always overhyped and never really matter that much, particularly, you know, at the state level.
[641] You know, for example, you know, in Wisconsin, there have been debates between the candidates for governor and Senate.
[642] They generally take place on, you know, Friday nights or over the weekend.
[643] Almost nobody sees them.
[644] They're just, I mean, you know, we can talk about them.
[645] We can analyze them, but they don't move any numbers at all.
[646] this is an exception what's going to happen in pennsylvania where you have a live debate between john fetterman and dr a i think it might matter because there are these questions about fetterman's health about how he is recovering from the stroke and my and you tell me whether you disagree i do think that's going to be very very closely watched if fetterman does stumble if he does look frail or or unable to communicate.
[647] That's going to hurt him.
[648] I don't know how badly, but it will hurt him.
[649] On the other hand, if he exceeds expectations, he could put to rest many of those doubts.
[650] So I think this may be one of those exceptions in a very close run race.
[651] What do you think?
[652] So, okay, this brings us back weirdly to what you and I have previously discussed in the context of Joe Biden.
[653] That is, Joe Biden seems incoherent a lot of the time.
[654] And it's a different situation.
[655] But Joe Biden, in terms of processing audio information, he just needs a little bit of time.
[656] And if he can show the voters that he's got it together, which my understanding is he absolutely does, that will reassure a lot of people.
[657] And if he doesn't do that, I think if he doesn't debate, if he doesn't make some kind of a showing, the danger is too many voters in Pennsylvania will believe that Federman has a thinking problem, and that would be lethal to him.
[658] No, I think you have it exactly right.
[659] So, Will, what are you going to be looking at for the rest of the week?
[660] Anything that you should keep an eye on?
[661] I'm looking at these statewide polls, this problem you and I have been discussing of why people are not voting on democracy, why they don't care about it that much.
[662] And it is, you know, in a lot of these races where deniers are running in Arizona, in Pennsylvania, in Michigan, this is a significant problem.
[663] So I'm going to be looking at that New York Times poll as part of it.
[664] I'm also kind of fascinated by this thing coming up where Kevin McCarthy is signaling that the Republicans are going to start tightening the purse strings on Ukraine if they take over the House.
[665] This is to me as a a very alarming development and people are not paying enough attention to it.
[666] Oh, I completely agree.
[667] In fact, I'm hoping to devote tomorrow's podcast to this question because remarkable comments from McCarthy, not just that, but the suggestion that Republicans might provoke a debt crisis, which would be absolutely catastrophic.
[668] Catherine Rampel in The Washington Post has a great column about all of this.
[669] So you have Kevin McCarthy signaling that he might torpedo the global economy in a fit of peak in order to, you know, cut entitlement programs and suggesting that they might tighten the purse strings with Ukraine, you know, both of that in this rather remarkable punchbowl interview, which we're going to be talking about on tomorrow's podcast as well.
[670] Will, it is great to have you back again.
[671] I appreciate it very, very much.
[672] This was great, Charlie.
[673] Thanks for having me back.
[674] The Bullwark podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio production by Jonathan Siri.
[675] I'm Charlie Sykes.
[676] Thank you for listening to today's Bullwork.
[677] podcast, and we'll be back tomorrow to do this all over again.