The Bulwark Podcast XX
[0] Good morning and welcome to the Bull Work podcast.
[1] I'm Charlie Sykes.
[2] I know this is going to be a good podcast because I'm already through my fourth page of notes.
[3] I keep, you know, making the notes of what I want to talk to our guest about.
[4] And then I tear it up because I think we're not going to get to that.
[5] There is just so much that I want to talk with you about Kara Swisher.
[6] Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
[7] Thanks for having me, Charlie.
[8] For those of you not familiar, Kara Swisher has a new podcast on with Kara Swisher.
[9] She is the co -host of the pivot.
[10] podcast, an editor at large of New York Magazine, former host of the sway and recode decode podcast.
[11] And she's described as Silicon Valley's most feared and well -like journalist.
[12] Well, first of all, you don't usually see those words in the same sentence.
[13] Yeah.
[14] That was just a headline.
[15] That was just a headline.
[16] They're just trying to make some, I don't know if I'm that well -liked or feared.
[17] Well, maybe I'm a little feared, I suppose.
[18] Well, okay, that's an interesting question because you are a legendary interviewer.
[19] And I caught you down in Austin at the Texas Tribune Festival interviewing Hillary Clinton.
[20] And afterwards, you were asked about your approach to interviewing.
[21] And you said something along the lines of that kind of the key was that you don't care whether you ever interview them again.
[22] Right.
[23] Yes, that is correct.
[24] Okay.
[25] So is that liberating?
[26] Is that like, I'm just going to ask you what I want.
[27] I'm going to just go at it.
[28] Yes, that's exactly.
[29] It's not to be mean to them.
[30] It's not like I feel like beating up on them because a lot of people I've had round and round after like Elon Musk keep coming back for more.
[31] Like they keep wanting to talk and stuff like that.
[32] And so it's not so much that I think a lot of reporters, look, I was a beat reporter.
[33] I get it.
[34] There's a level of push you can give to the people you're covering, right?
[35] It's a little and that's my problem with, you know, it's called access journalism, but it really is just beat reporting.
[36] And you have to maintain a long relationship or you get frozen out.
[37] Now, sometimes when I've gotten over the years, it seemed to me that every time I got frozen out, I did better work.
[38] Like with Yahoo, for example, they wouldn't talk to me for a while.
[39] But ultimately, people inside, if you're doing great reporting, will work with you.
[40] You know, not necessarily the top people, but you don't necessarily need access to do a good job.
[41] That's my, that was my whole thing.
[42] And so my, when I'm doing, when I said that, it's like, I'm going to ask what I want to ask.
[43] And they don't want to talk to me next time.
[44] That's their business.
[45] But I'm not going to change what I want to ask because of that.
[46] Well, that's a big issue.
[47] It's a real challenge.
[48] This whole question of access journalism, anybody who's been a beat reporter understands that push and pull that in order to get your scoops, in order to get the stories, the inside, you need to cultivate sources.
[49] You need to have people who return your phone calls, which means that there is the suspicion that some reporters might pull their punches.
[50] Yeah, sure.
[51] And that's become very, very controversial.
[52] Well, it's, you know, it's the parsing of words again it's access journalism versus beat reporting there's just you have to have a relationship now sometimes you just don't have to you know you actually don't see if you're covering the white house you kind of do because you can't get in right you can't physically get in and they can keep you out but i think in a lot of cases you don't need to be quite as if you're a good you have to be a good reporter first of all if you're not you're screwed you do you do you do have to do sort of the game that people play but i don't i think the word access is sort of this sort of dirty word like act as if they're going to trade something way i don't think most reporters do that.
[53] Now, look, Sean Hannity's texts aside to President Trump.
[54] I don't know what even that is.
[55] It's not even access.
[56] And he's not a journalist, right?
[57] I forgot.
[58] That's tongue bath journalism.
[59] Yeah, right.
[60] Yeah.
[61] He just wants to be in power.
[62] That's very different.
[63] And that's just a whole different new, that's not a new fresh thing.
[64] A lot of journalists used to do that.
[65] You know, Kennedy had a number of journalists around him that were giving him advice and stuff.
[66] So it's not a fresh new idea.
[67] I think the issue is, that I think about is, I'm going to ask what I'm going to ask.
[68] And if they don't like me, well, too bad.
[69] There's just, and that, that'll be my problem.
[70] And I always find a way to get in.
[71] I feel like I'm like water.
[72] Like, I'll eventually get in and rot your floorboards.
[73] So where do you come down on the Maggie Haberman Wars?
[74] I tweeted out, I got a copy of her book, which is out today.
[75] And I said, hey, in the mail.
[76] And I would say that two thirds to three quarters of the response where people, I'm never going to buy that book because she sold about she wasn't tough enough on Trump, which I am very puzzled by.
[77] this.
[78] Where do you come down on this, since we're talking about quote -unquote access journalism?
[79] I'm about to interview Maggie, actually, for a podcast today.
[80] Of course.
[81] And I've known her for a long time, and I consider her a friend.
[82] So I'm going to say that at the top, obviously.
[83] But, you know, a couple of things with her is she's a beat reporter and she's covering the person everyone has a feeling about, right?
[84] Whether you love her, because the people on the right hate her too, like she's too mean to him, right?
[85] And he writes all these weird texts and emails about her, you know, these tweet tweets.
[86] and now it's whatever truths about her.
[87] And so in her case, I don't think you win whatsoever when you're covering the most controversial person on the planet, really.
[88] You know, I can't think of someone more controversial.
[89] So everyone thinks you're either being too tough on them or being too acquiescent.
[90] I think for some people, the very act of speaking to him is a problem, right?
[91] And then what do you do?
[92] And I was listening to some of the clips of the interviews, and I thought she did actually a good job when he was talking about the TV thing, for example, Now, someone could listen to that and say, why doesn't she challenge him?
[93] And it's like, it's an interview where you're just trying to draw him out.
[94] She's not trying to, and she goes, okay, she doesn't agree with him.
[95] She's like, okay.
[96] And then she pushes again.
[97] She's like, so you didn't watch TV?
[98] Because she wants to get it on the record that he's lying, right?
[99] That's what she's doing there.
[100] And so I was watching the response.
[101] I'm like, do you know what she's doing?
[102] She's not actually agreeing with him.
[103] And so I think one of the problems that Maggie has is she's literally covering the most hated and reviled and also beloved, depending on where you're sitting person.
[104] And there's no winning in that case.
[105] Secondly, I don't think that I see a lot of that commentary around the men that cover him exactly the same way.
[106] I just don't.
[107] You know what I mean?
[108] She's become some sort of something, a lightning rod for people.
[109] Yeah, very much so.
[110] But gosh, you know, Bob Woodward could get a pushback for keeping stuff.
[111] The third thing is they've been very clear the editors decide.
[112] She brings them news things and they decide, but she still gets the blame.
[113] And so I think it's super complex.
[114] I wouldn't know quite how to cover that beat in a way that's correct.
[115] And so, you know, she's done enormous amounts of very devastating reporting, but she doesn't get credit for that.
[116] But whenever she does something like maybe looks like, you know, I can see who the sources are.
[117] Most people can guess.
[118] Like there's every now and then you're like, oh, look, Jared talked to her, right?
[119] Like you could just tell.
[120] Or Ivanka.
[121] Like, I think everyone in Washington practices that.
[122] So I'm not really clear why we're jumping on her, particularly in general for it, except that she's the most prominent person.
[123] That's what I was going to say.
[124] It's just simply because she is the most prominent.
[125] So in your new podcast, last week you talked with Chris Cuomo.
[126] So what was that like?
[127] I'm going to be just as tough on Maggie on this stuff as I wasn't Chris Cuomo.
[128] So I'm going to impress her for it.
[129] But I do understand what she's doing because I was a beat reporter, so I understand the dynamics of that.
[130] Oh, Chris Cuomo.
[131] What about him?
[132] So has Chris Cuomo ever going to come back on your podcast?
[133] I guess I don't know.
[134] I think he will.
[135] I think he will.
[136] I think he kind of like he was, I think he was relieved to be like pressed like that.
[137] Like, oh, finally, someone just says it out loud.
[138] Like, this is a shitty ethical thing I did.
[139] To my face.
[140] To my face.
[141] And I think a lot of people, that one thing that does bother me, he did have a very good point is everyone loved it until they hated it.
[142] And so, you know, I bet he didn't get much pushback within CNN to what he was doing.
[143] Like, right?
[144] And so his one thing that I thought was super weak was if I knew there'd be a grudge.
[145] And I kept saying, well, what about the thing itself, not that the reaction?
[146] So you do it no matter what.
[147] And if you didn't get pushback, you'd think it was a great thing.
[148] You know, he didn't have a point of view on whether what he did was wrong or not, the actual thing versus the reaction.
[149] So that was interesting to me. Yeah, I don't think the Cuomo do that sort of thing.
[150] Okay.
[151] So he did not have any regrets.
[152] Let me just say, you can hear it in his voice.
[153] He wanted to say, you know, I called the code red.
[154] You remember that.
[155] I called the Code Red Kara.
[156] I did it.
[157] Yeah, you'd love to hear him and Andrew sit around and talk about, you know, how unfair the world is to them.
[158] Okay.
[159] So I want to talk about Elon Musk.
[160] I want to talk about Elon Musk and Twitter.
[161] Elon Musk's text messages, what they show.
[162] Elon Musk, international man of diplomacy with his suggestions about Ukraine.
[163] I want to talk about Peter Thiel and his activism in the midterm elections.
[164] But we have to start.
[165] with this story.
[166] We have to start with the Herschel Walker story, which you sort of always knew we were going to get to this moment where Herschel Walker comes into this race with so much baggage and Mitch McConnell and the other Republicans say, we can deal with that.
[167] Well, we're going to find out whether nothing matters.
[168] I think nothing matters chapter 879.
[169] This Daily Beast report suggesting that he paid for one of his girlfriend's abortions.
[170] They have the receipts.
[171] He is denying it vigorously.
[172] He is saying he's going to sue the Daily Beast for defamation.
[173] But the real problem seems to be his son, Christian Walker, who is something of a social media TikTok star.
[174] How would you describe Christian Walker?
[175] I mean, he's kind of big on social media, right?
[176] Is he or is he just loud?
[177] I'm just asking.
[178] I don't know.
[179] I don't think it's big.
[180] I think he's he makes a spectacle of himself.
[181] I don't think he's particularly, he basically yells at liberals.
[182] That's his thing.
[183] I followed him a while, you know, as I told you earlier, the gays have been fully aware of Christian Walker, you know, what he was doing.
[184] He's just, he's just one of these screamers.
[185] There's lots of them, you know, here's my point of view.
[186] He's, he's somewhat entertaining, I guess, if you go in for that kind of stuff.
[187] He does this sort of yelling into the camera thing about what, it's usually liberals.
[188] It's usually, and it's often, you know, it's sort of like, hello, psychology in real time.
[189] Well, let's get a taste of this because yesterday there was a lot of focus on his tweets where he says, I don't care about somebody who had a bad past and takes accountability, but how dare you lie and act as though you're some moral Christian upright man, you've lived a life of destroying.
[190] There's a lot of all caps here, of destroying other people's lives, how dare you?
[191] And he says, every family member of Herschel Walker asked him not to run for office because we all knew some of his past every single one.
[192] He decided to give us the middle finger, air out all of his dirty laundry in public while simultaneously lying about it.
[193] And this morning, the hits just keep coming.
[194] He posted this to TikTok.
[195] Here's it, we just slightly edited it down, but I think you'll get a flavor of Christian Walker on TikTok this morning.
[196] I stayed silent as the atrocities committed against my mom were downplayed.
[197] I stayed silent when it came out that my father, Herschel Walker, out all these random kids across the country, none of whom he raised.
[198] And you know my favorite issue to talk about is Father Abs.
[199] Surprise, because it affected me. That's why I talk about it all the time, because it affected me. Family values people, he has four kids, four different women, wasn't in the house raising one of them.
[200] He was out having sex with other women.
[201] Do you care about family values?
[202] I was silent lie after lie, after lie.
[203] The abortion card drops yesterday.
[204] It's literally his handwriting in the car.
[205] They say they have receipts, whatever.
[206] He gets on Twitter.
[207] He lies about it.
[208] Okay, I'm done.
[209] Done.
[210] Everything has been a lie.
[211] And so for the right to say I'm being suspicious for saying, hey, I'm done with the lies.
[212] When you all have been calling me saying, is this true about your dad?
[213] Gosh, we're not going to win Georgia, this candid all.
[214] That's been you.
[215] You have no idea what I've been through in my life.
[216] You have no idea what me and my mom have survived.
[217] We could have ended this on day one.
[218] We haven't.
[219] I haven't told any stories.
[220] I'm just saying, don't lie.
[221] Don't lie on my mom.
[222] Don't lie on me. Don't lie on the lives you've destroyed and act like you're some moral family man. Y 'all should care about that, conservatives.
[223] And then for people on the left to act as though I'm responsible for all of the things that he has done.
[224] I've talked about Father Epps, I've talked all these issues because they've been close to me, because they matter to me, because I went through it.
[225] That's why I've talked about it.
[226] So when you say, well, talk about your dad, but I am.
[227] I'm saying this behavior is atrocious.
[228] Don't come for me. You don't have to like bipolar.
[229] You don't have to like me. You don't have to.
[230] I'm just saying I'm done with the lies.
[231] Oh, I don't care.
[232] That young man needs a hug.
[233] As a mother of four, that young man needs a big, big hug for an extended period time.
[234] Obviously, he does talk about father issues if you follow him.
[235] And, of course, it's not even veiled.
[236] I mean, it's a constant.
[237] And you know exactly who was talking about.
[238] He seems, I wouldn't say obsessed with it.
[239] He talks about absent fathers almost every other couple of scream fest he does.
[240] And that's his tone, right?
[241] He has a lot of feels and in your face, that kind of stuff.
[242] And, you know, unfortunately, in a lot of ways, is that these social media tools provide us the inside of families, like, right there.
[243] And the people who aren't being heard by their parents, in this case, Herschel Walker, this is the way he's talking to him in a lot of weird ways.
[244] And, you know, he's also very, he wants to be a celebrity.
[245] There's that element of that.
[246] He used to live in Los Angeles.
[247] He lives in Florida now because he went on about a harangue about California and poop on the streets for a while there.
[248] just, you know, a tip, whatever, okay, fine, then you should move.
[249] But it's really, I don't know how damaging it is, because they'll say he's allowed, he's gay, but although he says he's not gay, but he says he sleeps with men.
[250] I don't even understand what's going on.
[251] So they'll try to minimize that he's crazy, I suspect, you know, sort of like a Mary Trump kind of thing.
[252] So I guess this is the question of whether this makes a difference.
[253] Obviously, the National Republican Party is all in on Herschel Walker.
[254] They double down again this morning saying they're going to, aggressively fund him.
[255] Eric Erickson, who I think was never Herschel, and then, of course, is now, well, maybe Herschel or yes, Ra, Ra Herschel is having some buyer's remorse.
[256] And he tweeted last night, I'd largely thought that Walker could pull this off despite his baggage.
[257] I'll see what sort of response he mounts.
[258] But given the text messages tonight with Georgia Republicans, Georgia GOP peers, are praying for Dr. Oz to win.
[259] Walker has an amounted a good response to any attack, and this is brutal, probably a K .O. And then he followed up on that, saying one notable thing here, and I think this is very revealing.
[260] It's not the Daily Beast story that's gotten Georgia Republican types into despair mode.
[261] It's not the fact that he paid for an abortion.
[262] It's Herschel Walker's son's Twitter thread that served as the admission against interest for Walker, and it's all downhill from there.
[263] So I guess, you know, the conventional take this morning is everybody's going, well, it's going to be access Hollywood all over again.
[264] People are going to be all upset about it, but then they're going to take a deep breath.
[265] They're stuck with him, and they'll rally around.
[266] What do you think?
[267] Sure.
[268] Yes, of course.
[269] By the way, they knew this from the start.
[270] So let's not pretend.
[271] Like, oh, my goodness, you're kidding.
[272] This guy is a liar.
[273] Like, I'm sorry.
[274] I mean, there are liars and everyone lies, but boy, this guy is sort of the Olympic champion of it.
[275] And so I think he's just, they knew that this was the case.
[276] I'm sure they knew there was an abortion.
[277] I'm sure they knew.
[278] I'm sure there's worse.
[279] even worse.
[280] And they just don't care.
[281] They want to win this seat and cynically because they had other better candidates, right, to go up against Reverend Warnock, but they decided not to because they're in the thrall of Donald Trump.
[282] And, you know, it's sort of a ride or die kind of thing.
[283] And in this case, possibly die, right?
[284] Like in this kind of thing.
[285] And so they're so cynical.
[286] If they, if they win with this, they're just as fine as, you know, and if they lose, they can just blame him and all this baggage.
[287] Yeah.
[288] No, I think that's exactly.
[289] And of course, It's Iran.
[290] It's ironic that Mitch McConnell, you know, who's complained about bad candidate quality, was actually one of the guys that rolled over and said, okay, why not Herschel Walker?
[291] Well, I guess we have the answer to all of that.
[292] Well, you know, rolled over is like the party motto, right?
[293] Let's talk about Elon Musk, one of your favorite guys, and I must admit that I am obsessed.
[294] So I guess the really in -depth question that I have for you on his deep thoughts on Russia and Ukraine, Kara, is what the fuck?
[295] What is going?
[296] I mean, he's, he's winging in on Twitter with his own Elon Musk peace plan, you know, redo elections, Crimea formerly part of Russia, Ukraine's going to remain neutral, water supply to Crimea is assured, whatever they mean.
[297] So, you know, this four -part plan did get a pretty explicit fuck off from Ukraine's ambassador to Germany.
[298] Yeah, he did.
[299] You know what?
[300] Thoughts.
[301] Okay.
[302] Okay.
[303] He also mouths off on, like, he puts poems up.
[304] I just think a lot of people get everything he says out of his mouth.
[305] Maybe it's like just some guy sitting in a bar doing this.
[306] So it just happens to be Elon Musk, the richest man in the world.
[307] Or maybe not the richest today.
[308] What do you care what he thinks about the Ukraine?
[309] I don't know.
[310] Was it something going to happen?
[311] Suddenly the Secretary's day going to go, ah, finally, a plan.
[312] Thank goodness.
[313] Elon Musk weighed in.
[314] I mean, I think he's very much, you know, styles himself after Stark Industries.
[315] Iron man. Iron man. I think he just doesn't.
[316] And so he just does it.
[317] One, I think he's doing it as a distraction because he, the man loves attention.
[318] Let's be clear.
[319] He loves attention.
[320] He loves shit posting.
[321] He loves causing controversy.
[322] It's one of his pleasures.
[323] It's one, you know, his release valves.
[324] And so he just, whatever he wants to weigh in on, whether it's, you know, Biden is mean to me or, you know, I'm going to be a right winger.
[325] That lasted for a New York minute.
[326] Like, okay, sure.
[327] You think it matters.
[328] It doesn't matter what he thinks.
[329] of Ukraine.
[330] There's no way he's going to influence anything.
[331] And he's just running his mouth.
[332] He, I mean, the guy is the richest man in the world.
[333] And he, he may, and like tomorrow he may own Twitter.
[334] Okay.
[335] So that may be that matter.
[336] Yeah.
[337] No, no. Twitter's a very small business, shitty business, right?
[338] In both the left and the right media over index, the power of it, it doesn't, it worked for Donald Trump for sure.
[339] It was a very powerful medium.
[340] But in general, I don't think there's going to be any repercussions.
[341] Look, he's caught in a, in two weeks, or less than two weeks.
[342] He's got to go to court, and he's going to lose a battle probably, most people feel.
[343] I think he's going to lose.
[344] And so one...
[345] And they'll make them by Twitter.
[346] Well, they'll something.
[347] I don't know if they'll make them by Twitter.
[348] He's either going to have to, you know, not buy it and hand over some dough the difference between what he offered for it and what it's worth right now, or he's going to have to buy it, or he's going to have to keep in court.
[349] It's not going to work.
[350] He's going to lose, no better what.
[351] I'm going to stick with what makes this guy tick.
[352] He's the richest man in the world.
[353] He has all.
[354] all of these amazing companies.
[355] And so why is he not content with building Tesla's and sending large rocket penises into space?
[356] Yeah, well, what...
[357] Jeff Bezos has the penis rocket.
[358] Let's try to keep that straight.
[359] They're all penis rockets.
[360] Yes, true.
[361] But the one who actually looks like a penis is Jeff Bezos is the most depicting of that.
[362] So did Jeff Bezos do that because he was trying to compare himself with it?
[363] I mean, what is going on with these guys?
[364] Well, that's an interesting story.
[365] It's like, does every billionaire have to become a 12 -year -old boy again?
[366] It's like, you go, I have a gazillion dollars.
[367] I want to be a 12 -year -old boy.
[368] Hey, you said have to become?
[369] Do you think they're not that?
[370] Like, they've already, they don't have to become.
[371] They better.
[372] You know, here's the deal.
[373] He really is interested in rocketry.
[374] A lot of people are, you know, not just boys, but girls.
[375] And so is Jeff.
[376] Jeff has always been interested in space since I've known him.
[377] And so he's got the money.
[378] And so what's he going to do by a sports team?
[379] How boring, right?
[380] Or Pierre Omidyar, who started eBay, at one time, he's like, do I have to buy a sports team now?
[381] I hate sports.
[382] So he bought a hotel chain, right?
[383] And so what do you do with all that money?
[384] You can give it away like Bill Gates is trying to do.
[385] Or you could buy a yacht.
[386] How many yachts can you buy?
[387] How many planes can you buy?
[388] These people have wealth that's obscene.
[389] It's an obscene amount of wealth.
[390] And so I think, one, they do have a rivalry.
[391] A hundred percent.
[392] I had Elon on stage two years ago, I guess, where all he did is make penis rocket jokes the whole time against Jeff Bezos, which is what he, it amuses him.
[393] And in the case of, um, it amuses me too, so.
[394] Yes, it amuses everyone.
[395] I guess this is me being a 12 year old boy.
[396] But I think Elon really does behind all of this.
[397] You know, in a lot of ways, he reminds me a little bit of Kanye West.
[398] You can't ignore Kanye West's brilliance in terms of music and everything else.
[399] If you, if you step away from all the crazy stuff, he says, he's quite the artist, right?
[400] He is.
[401] But he is crazy.
[402] He's, he's mentally challenged, I think.
[403] It's a nicer way putting it.
[404] And he does.
[405] He has definite issues.
[406] I'm not a doctor, but you can see he's struggling with mental illness.
[407] So I think Elon has this part of him that I love, which is the visionary part.
[408] I think what he's done around SpaceX is really astonishing.
[409] Landing a rocket on a platform in the position or whatever.
[410] That is.
[411] Astonishing.
[412] Tesla, astonishing.
[413] It would be enough for most people.
[414] Yes, but it's not.
[415] He's a restless, I would say speaking of daddy issues, there's very clear daddy issues there.
[416] Walter Isaacs, and I know is working on, has been spending a lot of time with him working on his book about him and has been with him.
[417] And I think there is going to be a big daddy issue section would be my guess.
[418] His father, as you saw, he also was having many children at a late age, very tumultuous childhood.
[419] Brilliant.
[420] And so restless.
[421] Also, a bit of Asperger.
[422] I mean, you could see it there if you spent time with him.
[423] I don't know if he's diagnosed.
[424] He's talked about mental illness also.
[425] He's talked about being bipolar.
[426] I don't know if he's been diagnosed.
[427] He himself has said that.
[428] And so I think he's just a restless person, and some of it manifests in wonderful things.
[429] And when he's in a cycle, many people close to him told me this, when he's in a cycle of manicness, he gets like this.
[430] This is what he does.
[431] And so, I don't know.
[432] I don't really care what he thinks of Ukraine.
[433] I think it's a distraction from Twitter, what's about to happen to him, which is going to have to hand over billions of dollars.
[434] Well, let's talk about this case in Delaware, because last week they had to release hundreds of pages of these text messages and emails to and from mosque.
[435] And, you know, Charlie Worsell wrote about this in the Atlantic.
[436] He said that what's so illuminating is how unimpressive, unimaginative, and sycophantic the powerful men in Musk's contact appear to be.
[437] He quotes one social media executive who tells him, everyone looks so fucking dumb.
[438] There's no strategic thought or now.
[439] It's just emotional and done without any real care.
[440] So what was your take?
[441] I mean, you deal with these guys all the time to sort of see this varnish behind the curtain.
[442] And it's like, whoa.
[443] What I said is welcome to my fucking world.
[444] Like, this is what they're like.
[445] I've seen this.
[446] I know what they're like.
[447] They make decisions emotionally.
[448] They make them without thinking, without due diligence.
[449] I've talked about this over and over about Facebook.
[450] They're like, why did they do that?
[451] I said, do you think they thought about it?
[452] You think they are behind the scenes with their brilliance.
[453] They don't think about it.
[454] They don't.
[455] They are careless people, you know, from the Grave Gasby, like Tom and Daisy.
[456] They're careless.
[457] They don't care what they break.
[458] And so I don't mean they're always malevolent.
[459] Not always.
[460] They just are careless.
[461] Many years ago, when I was covering Facebook, They showed me Facebook live for the first time.
[462] And I said, well, what happens if a bully gets it or someone who's a killer who wants to shoot people and broadcast it live?
[463] And they're like, you're a bummer, Kara.
[464] And I'm like, oh, my God, you didn't think of it, right?
[465] You didn't think of it, did you?
[466] And so I think in a lot of ways, you know, Elon is the same way.
[467] And the people around him.
[468] First of all, he's the world's richest man. So a lot of people want to get on his boat or plane or train or whatever.
[469] Secondly, they can benefit from him.
[470] One of the things I've talked to him about, he didn't like something I said.
[471] and I said, I don't work for you.
[472] I said, I don't get money from you.
[473] The most I get is an interview, and that's pretty much it.
[474] And I'm very clear that I want that.
[475] And so I said, so in a lot of ways, I'm your best friend because I'm telling you the truth about stuff.
[476] And we often get into beeps about that because of it.
[477] Over time, we've had periods where we don't speak to each other.
[478] And so I think these people have to lick him up and down all day.
[479] They have to tell him he's right.
[480] And actually, what I was really struck by, and again, this is the Elon I do know, he was quite like, please stop doing that.
[481] No, thank.
[482] He was very controlled in those texts, very much so, and very reasonable.
[483] And that's the Elon I like better.
[484] You could see that.
[485] He doesn't come off looking bad, all these sick offense to.
[486] One of the things that kind of shook me was, you know, any residual faith you have in, you know, capitalism or the wisdom of these, you know, business executives, you know, you constantly hear this drumbeat.
[487] You know, we need more businessmen in government or people who would run government like business.
[488] And then you look at Larry Ellison, the CEO of Oracle, big, big deal, who's, you know, expressing interest in being part of a Twitter deal.
[489] And so Musk asks them, so roughly what dollar size?
[490] And this is the text from the CEO of Oracle, a billion or whatever you recommend.
[491] It would be lots of fun.
[492] And then Musk responds, whatever works for you, would I recommend maybe $2 billion or more.
[493] And then Ellison responds, well, since you think I should come in for at least $2 billion, I'm in for $2 billion.
[494] So, okay, that was a lot of money just being thrown around by tech.
[495] messages and like does not appear there was a lot of due diligence.
[496] No, none.
[497] Between the two.
[498] And then you get the...
[499] I would say none.
[500] What's less than none?
[501] Less than none.
[502] Well, look, if you and I were like, can you give me a hundred bucks?
[503] Yeah, sure, whatever.
[504] I guess, you know, whatever.
[505] I'm starting a bar.
[506] Oh, here's a thousand bucks.
[507] Like, you know what I mean?
[508] That's what it's like with these people.
[509] And they don't do...
[510] Sam Bankman -Fried.
[511] I was sort of surprised because it's somewhat of a thoughtful person.
[512] He has a crypto exchange F -TX.
[513] And he was like, he'll fly out there.
[514] there and then it'll give you $5 billion.
[515] I mean, that's what they're like.
[516] That's what they're like.
[517] That's how they make decisions on the fly.
[518] Sometimes it works out.
[519] Sometimes it doesn't.
[520] They make dozens of them and one of them always works, right?
[521] So it doesn't really matter if the other 11 suck.
[522] I mean, that's really how they think about it.
[523] So since we are in this era in which we have, I mean, I do feel at some point that we live in a society where we have this handful of billionaires who just have this outsized impact.
[524] And of course, We can't call them oligarchs because that's what that's, that was only in Russia.
[525] Oh, yes.
[526] Let's start.
[527] Yeah.
[528] So let's start with, let's talk about Peter Thiel.
[529] Yeah.
[530] So CNBC the other day reported that Teal has told his deep pocketed political network that he's done helping J .D. Vance, who he thinks is going to win in Ohio.
[531] I mean, he's raising money for Blake Masters.
[532] He's, he's all over the place.
[533] He's got his fingers in this year's midterms in a rather extraordinary way.
[534] So you know the guy.
[535] What's making him tick?
[536] And where do you think this goes?
[537] Because we're at this moment where we think of the 1890s where, you know, guys would sit back and, you know, smoke their cigars and decide who is going to sit in the United States Senate.
[538] Well, now we have these Silicon Valley guys who go, yeah, I'd like this dweeb, J .D. Vance, to be a United States senator, and I can make that happen and may just make it happen.
[539] And then he goes, well, I can make Blake Masters a senator in Arizona.
[540] So what's Peter Thiel up to?
[541] Kingmaker?
[542] Of course.
[543] He's been interested in politics since he's been in college.
[544] I mean, this guy has been very politically oriented.
[545] He also doesn't like government.
[546] He sort of wants to burn it all down.
[547] I used to talk to him.
[548] He doesn't talk to me more because I did just that.
[549] I asked him exactly the questions, and he's way too smart to answer them at this point.
[550] There's no winning for him talking to me, for example.
[551] But in the time I did spend with him, there's a great video of he and I arguing for 15 minutes on the Internet about a wide variety of things.
[552] And he didn't like it.
[553] You know, he didn't like it.
[554] And again, he's quite brilliant.
[555] in many ways.
[556] But a little thin -skinned?
[557] A very thin -skinned.
[558] And that's okay.
[559] It's not thin -skinned.
[560] He's just smart.
[561] He's like, what do I need this bullshit?
[562] What I need to talk to this lesbian for?
[563] And, you know, that's how he makes calculations.
[564] Others are more like maybe I'll need her later.
[565] Maybe she could hurt me. He thinks I can't.
[566] And so fine, whatever.
[567] But in his case, I think he's been very political in the beginning.
[568] He's been very conservative.
[569] He also is gay.
[570] There was a big case about that, as you recall.
[571] I think he wants to be politically relevant.
[572] And so, and he has the means and money to do so, whether it's suing Gawker out of existence, which he did, or doing this.
[573] And so he wants to put people into government that will minimize government.
[574] He's like the ultimate, he doesn't just like conservatives are like less government, right?
[575] He hates government.
[576] He doesn't want any government.
[577] He thinks capitalism is the way to go for everything.
[578] And if you read his books, you should read, they're quite fascinating and he's quite brilliant.
[579] And so you read them and you're like, oh, that's the problem.
[580] Just read his books.
[581] He says what he wants to do.
[582] he does it over and over again.
[583] And so it's not surprising that he finds candidates and applies money to them, just like he wouldn't investment.
[584] And some of them work out.
[585] Like, he had a lot of bad investments and that he had Facebook, so it hardly mattered, right?
[586] And so Masters looks like a pretty bad investment.
[587] Vance is a pretty bad investment.
[588] Probably we'll see if that'll work, but he certainly should be winning a lot more.
[589] I mean, I would say it's a failure because he's not killing it, right?
[590] He's not dominating, largely because a lot of the stupid things that come out of his mouth.
[591] By the way, I met him many years ago when he, this was not the person I met.
[592] He's changed rather drastically.
[593] And this is the before times J .D. Vance.
[594] Yeah, I talked to Steve Case about that recently.
[595] And it's coming out in a podcast.
[596] But he worked for Steve Case.
[597] And let me just tell you, I don't know who that person is, the person who's speaking, but whatever, people evolve into, whatever they want to evolve into.
[598] And so I think, I think he's being very smart.
[599] He's like, I'm going to put my money behind certain people and see what works.
[600] And then after that, he is a lot of influence.
[601] If he gets them in a place, they certainly owe him, right, on some And so, you know, he wants to get the people with the mentality that he has, which is that get the government out of the way and by any means necessary, including election denial.
[602] But is that, is that really what J .D. Vance is running on?
[603] You know, I'm hearing all of these national conservatives who are saying we ought to use the power of government to reward our friends, punish our enemies.
[604] Well, they're going to do that.
[605] Break down the wall between church and state, which is weird to have coming from a candidate supported by Peter Thiel, right?
[606] Yes, but he doesn't care.
[607] You imagine that he has like, oh, wait, wait, oh, that's hypocritical.
[608] You think they think for a minute?
[609] No, the goal is to have power.
[610] That really is the goal.
[611] And so by any means necessary is how these people think.
[612] And they think that way in business, too.
[613] Like, look, Facebook isn't really bathing itself in glory over how it's managed its business, is it?
[614] You know, he doesn't care.
[615] He doesn't care.
[616] I did.
[617] That's where me and a lot of the Facebook people, I'm like, don't you care the impact?
[618] And they don't.
[619] They don't care.
[620] They absolutely, he did for sure.
[621] And he thinks it's overblown.
[622] He'll say that.
[623] I've seen him talk about that.
[624] And that it'll sort itself out and capitalism will sort itself out.
[625] And I don't think he cares about collateral damage.
[626] So if you're sitting in a room with the Facebook people or folks like this and you say, this is really bad, this is destroying the fabric of our culture and democracy.
[627] What do they look at you like?
[628] Like you're the.
[629] Oh, please.
[630] Kara, you're being dramatic.
[631] Oh, come on.
[632] It'll work itself out.
[633] I'm like, yeah, I guess it will, to your advantage.
[634] And, you know, I, look, at least Peter Thiel, and I do think he's quite brilliant, is honest about what he says.
[635] He says it out loud.
[636] He doesn't say that's not what he wants.
[637] And a lot of them sort of like, you'll hear like, we're trying to change the world.
[638] Whenever I hear that, I'm like, oh, no, no, please don't.
[639] We're trying to make the world better.
[640] You know, Facebook was full of those bromides that are just, you know, endless bullshit.
[641] But, you know, they want to grow at all costs.
[642] And you start to, you have to really study these people.
[643] of Mark Zuckerberg, do you know who is, I mean, it's well known, but do you know who his hero is, his historical hero?
[644] No. It's Augustus Caesar.
[645] Augustus Caesar.
[646] Now, I'm a very good student of history.
[647] I know Augustus Caesar did bring on Pax Romana, but it came at an enormous cost.
[648] And Mark would prefer to focus on Pax Romana versus all the dead people.
[649] So, you know.
[650] Yeah, and the end of the Republic, et cetera.
[651] That is correct.
[652] So, you know, Peter Thiel may be honest, but he's also willing to lie to advance his agenda in terms of the election denial.
[653] right?
[654] So, but again, that's just a means to an end.
[655] That's just whatever it takes.
[656] Whatever it takes.
[657] Like, you know, is that so different from Lee Atwater talking about Willie Horton and putting that out?
[658] They knew.
[659] Well, he was, but he was a professional hatchet man. That's correct.
[660] So why do you imagine these are any different?
[661] They will, who cares is what I think they're operating.
[662] Like, once we get to power, that's all that matters.
[663] And I think they don't care.
[664] That's the problem with the left.
[665] They're like, can you believe?
[666] Often, often, often, often with the left, which drives me nuts.
[667] It's like, can you believe they're doing that?
[668] I'm like, yeah, I can believe it.
[669] Like, it's the same thing with Trump.
[670] Can you believe he stole these documents?
[671] Yes, I believe it.
[672] Like, are you not paying attention?
[673] That's correct.
[674] And so you sit there, and that's a real problem on the left.
[675] Like all this righteous ignition, stop it.
[676] They're like this.
[677] Like, guess what?
[678] These people, this is how they are.
[679] Stop being shocked and surprised by a grab for power and start actually shoving back.
[680] I don't even understand why anyone's surprised at Trump.
[681] Well, you mentioned something.
[682] in passing that I think is a big story, but perhaps it's underappreciated, particularly with the question of where does Peter Thiel go in the future.
[683] One of his great accomplishments was to drive Gawker out of business by financing this massive lawsuit.
[684] And you know that, you know, I mean, on the right, there is this sort of, you know, every once in a while there's the, you know, Justice Thomas has suggested that we repeal protections against libel law, right?
[685] You know, New York versus Sullivan and everything.
[686] So clearly, in his mind, the, I can use my power to destroy media outlets or critics out there that I don't like or that I think have hurt me. Yeah.
[687] Someone was recently like, why didn't you do substack and make a lot of money?
[688] I said, do you think I'm going on in the Savannah with those people?
[689] They'll just sue me. Are you kidding?
[690] I'm staying back here in the trees.
[691] You know, that's what I think.
[692] They're like, they couldn't do that to you.
[693] I'm like, oh, no, they could like ruin me financially if I get anywhere where I'm exposed like that.
[694] I was And they're like, are you scared of them?
[695] I'm like, I'm not scared of them.
[696] I just understand the environment we live in.
[697] Look, the issue I had with that, he can have a problem with Gawker or whatever, and lots of people sue.
[698] Trump just sued CNN today, whatever, whenever that's going to go nowhere fast.
[699] But still, it's nuisance.
[700] It's a nuisance for CNN.
[701] It's costly.
[702] And they have the money, I guess, but still, most people don't.
[703] And so one of the things that I think about is like in that lawsuit, I don't mind that he sued him, but I mind that he did it secretly, right?
[704] Like, if he so matters, If he's so angry...
[705] If he's so wrong what they did, then come out into the light and say what you're doing.
[706] That's my issue with that, the secretiveness of it, that he was the funder of it.
[707] And later, he only came out of the dark when he won, right?
[708] If he had lost, you'd never know it was him.
[709] And they also didn't have to do all of it.
[710] Like, they took down the whole company.
[711] And so that's how they think.
[712] Like, you know, scorched earth.
[713] Do you think that they'll come after you someday?
[714] I don't know.
[715] No, probably not.
[716] I'm not going to be anywhere where they're going to be able to.
[717] Well, see, the reason I bring this up is because, you know, I can imagine five years from now having this conversation, people going, can you actually believe that they're trying to put all these media outlets out of business that they're, you know, they're picking off the low -hanging fruit that anybody that says anything.
[718] Correct.
[719] And the reality is anybody in the media knows that you don't have to win a lawsuit like this to do a lot of damage.
[720] You just file the lawsuit.
[721] You can bleed them dry if you're not the New York Times or the Washington Post or something.
[722] You can bleed, you know, smaller outfits or individuals if you were out in the savannah, bleed you dry just on the legal bills.
[723] And I think they've been signaling for some time that that's going to, that's coming.
[724] And yet, I think it's going to come as a shock when people realize, hey, when Donald Trump sues, how much is he asking for from CNN?
[725] Like, $450 billion or something like that?
[726] Yeah, he's incompetent.
[727] He's incommissionally, this is where it's going.
[728] He happens to be incompetent, right?
[729] Right?
[730] Same thing with the stealing of the documents or whatever he does.
[731] It's always like, oh, well, that's the direction, but boy, is he an idiot the way he's it.
[732] Same thing like the TikTok stuff was really interesting directionally.
[733] That's the way it's going, executionally.
[734] He's always executionally incompetent.
[735] And so, but I pay a lot of attention to the direction, you know, of what they're doing.
[736] So on Peter Thiel, I think the most interesting story about Teal is the new conservative dating app called the right stuff.
[737] It only allows for heterosexual dating, which, I don't know, did you find that interesting?
[738] I don't care.
[739] You know, again, left goes into the tizzy.
[740] I don't care.
[741] Go for it, boys.
[742] Let's enjoy yourselves.
[743] I hope you have many children.
[744] That's what I think about.
[745] But it's invite only at the moment.
[746] And there's actresses in an ad for the site are bemoaning the state of modern masculinity.
[747] And apparently they're looking for alpha nails who want children.
[748] And apparently you have to answer like a little survey, like what did you think about, January 6th?
[749] And I mean, what is the, why is he doing this?
[750] Because he's just tweaking liberals and whatever.
[751] If it works, it works.
[752] If it doesn't, he doesn't care.
[753] It's a comma.
[754] It's like a, it's a nothing burger for them.
[755] And so they're just doing it for attention.
[756] They're doing it to just drive people crazy.
[757] Maybe it's a business.
[758] Who knows?
[759] Like none of these, none of these right wing social media sites has done particularly well, right?
[760] In fact, you know, true social rhymes itself into a wall every five minutes from from a financial point of view.
[761] But, you know, if they scream loud enough, it'll attract attention.
[762] I don't care.
[763] There's J -Date.
[764] You know, you ever see the J -Dade ads are my favorite?
[765] Oh, they had a really good ad about finding people.
[766] So whatever, there's a farmer's one.
[767] There's a cowboys one, I think.
[768] It's the wonder of modern technology.
[769] I don't care.
[770] Here's something that I find a little bit puzzling.
[771] Maybe it just need to have to disaggregate it all.
[772] So we're talking about tech's influence on the midterms and, you know, the outsized influence they have.
[773] And yet, right now, one of the hot button issues on the right, is going after big tech, the loathing for big tech and Republicans who claim that we get back into power and we're coming for you.
[774] So how is this playing out in Silicon Valley?
[775] How does Silicon Valley see the political landscape and the possibility of significant ideological blowback?
[776] I think they're coming for their money, for donations.
[777] That's what they're coming for.
[778] I've been told Kevin McCarthy's meeting with all of them saying, if you get back in power, we'll be able to.
[779] You know, most of the stuff that's regulatory is from Amy Klobuchar and others, including with Chuck Grassley, that antitrust bill.
[780] But it's been mostly bipartisan, but the right has a real obsession with the censorship issue.
[781] So they're just, and it's good for the base, I guess.
[782] And they keep banging on that drum that they're, my favorite part is Josh Hawley saying that he's been censored when he never shuts up.
[783] That's always a pleasure.
[784] I'm like, wow, you never shut up.
[785] How is it that you've been censored?
[786] You have plenty of places to talk.
[787] It's called the web.
[788] The web, you can go on any time.
[789] It's this free thing that the government investment.
[790] All they're interested in is this is a power center they don't control.
[791] So they'll seek to control it, but they don't mind it being there.
[792] I'll tell you that.
[793] They don't mind it being there at all.
[794] And they're rich people.
[795] So pay money, that kind of thing.
[796] Can we be paid off for not attacking you?
[797] I think it's mostly an election thing.
[798] And in some cases, some people do really think, and I agree in that regard.
[799] Look, I thought Trump should be thrown off Twitter.
[800] I wrote about it a long time ago.
[801] But I don't love that two people made the decision to throw them off Facebook and Twitter.
[802] I don't love that.
[803] That's really problematic.
[804] And so I don't quite know how to figure it out.
[805] I just think it's very much a problem of concentration of power.
[806] And that's any Democrat republic should be concerned with a concentration of power among a very few group of people and a very small, very small group of companies.
[807] And that should be the concern.
[808] Of course, it's not.
[809] It's a screaming political issue.
[810] You know, every time Ted Cruz opens his mouth, one of the more incompetent politicians in modern life and just says things just to be, you know, just to see the reaction.
[811] He doesn't care about actually figuring out how to reign in power and legislate these powerful companies in a correct way because they are the most powerful companies in history.
[812] There is no legislation governing them.
[813] There's no privacy bills.
[814] There's no antitrust bills.
[815] There's no agency.
[816] Everyone has an agency, the FAA, the FCC, the, you know what I mean?
[817] Not tech.
[818] Think about that.
[819] Think about that.
[820] And then the FTC is underwhelmed, under -resourced.
[821] And so is the SEC, all of them.
[822] The SEC, the FTC.
[823] And And even though you don't like big government, they're outgunned by these people in terms of lawyers and lobbyists and everything else.
[824] And so I think what's really important to think about is what's good for everyone, there's no good for big companies to consolidate, even if you like them.
[825] I like Apple.
[826] I use all their products, but they have control over apps in their ecosystem.
[827] I like Amazon.
[828] I use it.
[829] But boy, are they dominating online commerce?
[830] And what does that mean for people who want to be on that platform?
[831] Should they be able to sell?
[832] these are all like nonpartisan issues.
[833] These are about power.
[834] So I think they're not going to go after anybody.
[835] They're going to go.
[836] I think they're going to run their mouse and do nothing.
[837] Now, Trump did make moves, you know, around TikTok.
[838] I just interviewed the CEO of TikTok.
[839] Directionally correct, you know, but it can be fixed.
[840] How can we do it so the Chinese government doesn't have control over it?
[841] That's an easy.
[842] It's not easy, but it's within the realm of nonpartisan good idea.
[843] But instead, they had to make it into a political.
[844] issue.
[845] So speaking of Facebook, you've talked and written a lot about Cheryl Sandberg, the meta chief operating officer, author of Lean In.
[846] She's stepping down at Facebook and she's gearing up to testify in this big Cambridge Analytica trial.
[847] So give me a sense of just give me a post -mortem look at Cheryl Sandberg and her role that she plays.
[848] Well, I have asked her to talk to me. I have talked to a number occasions.
[849] Right now, she's in a period of not wanting to talk to Kara.
[850] I know her very, very well.
[851] I have a lot of regard for her in many ways.
[852] I think she's one of the top business people around in the country, not just in Silicon Valley.
[853] The same time, I think she was compromised and went along with a lot of stuff and was responsible for a lot of stuff at Facebook that really was problematic and denied it, right?
[854] Denied it, just denied that there was any kind of thing.
[855] So I think she's going to have a very difficult time.
[856] Years ago when her husband died, and let me just say her husband was a friend of mine.
[857] He died suddenly of an symbolism, I think, in his heart.
[858] In any case, wonderful entrepreneur, wonderful guy.
[859] I think if he had lived, she would have left Facebook and probably would right now be Secretary of State, you know, or Treasury Secretary or something like that, very competent.
[860] Like she worked for Larry Summers, if you recall, she's just got a really, really sharp, she would have been very good at it.
[861] And instead, she stuck around at Facebook because Mark was lovely to her after her husband died, and she tarnished her reputation.
[862] Now, the question is, can she revive it?
[863] Lots of people do.
[864] Bill Gates, well, now he's retarnished again because of the Epstein stuff.
[865] But in general, he was sort of Darth Vader and then he became the great philanthropist.
[866] You can return and shift your thing.
[867] So I think what you'll probably do is she was going to run for office, even though she denies it, I think she very much wanted to run for office.
[868] I think she probably could not run for office now at this moment, largely because of the Facebook stuff.
[869] and she's a woman, because women get to get blamed for a lot longer than men do.
[870] Men get forgiven a lot easier than women in politics.
[871] And so I think she probably won't run.
[872] I think what she should do is do an enormous amount of philanthropy and not try to get attention, right?
[873] Like McKenzie, she needs to McKenzie Scott it, you know, that kind of thing, where you just give money, you just do good, you build a base of good acts.
[874] And then she can, I think, probably return to public life.
[875] If she does a hand wavy, look at me kind of thing, I think it's a big mistake.
[876] I would say this to her face.
[877] I think she's just got to give money, give time, make efforts around issues that are important to her, like Planned Parenthood and other things she's already been involved with.
[878] So Kara Swisher, I've gone through about half the things I wanted to talk to you about.
[879] I'll have you back on.
[880] Thank you so much for coming on the Bullwork podcast.
[881] No problem.
[882] This has been a great interview.
[883] What a thoughtful and substantive interview.
[884] I always like talking substantive.
[885] Well, well, thank you.
[886] Kara is the host of the new podcast, which you definitely should check out on with Kara Swisher and co -host of the Pivot Podcast, also at editor -at -large of New York Magazine.
[887] And the new On with Kara Swisher comes out twice a week?
[888] Yes, twice a week.
[889] Yeah, we have some really good ones coming up.
[890] We've had some great ones, but we have a lot coming up that are great.
[891] Am I absolutely insane for doing this every day?
[892] No. I mean, would you advise some young person, hey, just don't do it every day.
[893] Do it like two times of it.
[894] Do it every day.
[895] Do it twice a day and twice on Sundays.
[896] Frequency is really important building relationships with your audience.
[897] I think it's fine.
[898] You should do it.
[899] Let me ask you a question.
[900] you like doing it?
[901] I do.
[902] I do like doing it because as you understand, this is a great opportunity just to talk to interesting, smart people every single day.
[903] And I do think that you're an asshole and then that's a problem.
[904] But let me just say.
[905] Well, that's been a problem for me for years.
[906] If you like what you're doing, you should do it every day.
[907] If you don't, like Steve Jobs had a great quote when he thought he was sick and he came back and he did this amazing speech at Stanford.
[908] If many days past, you don't like what you're doing, you got to stop doing it.
[909] But at the opposite, if you love what you do, keep doing it.
[910] Kara, great talking with you.
[911] Thank you.
[912] podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio production by Jonathan Siri.
[913] I'm Charlie Sykes.
[914] Thank you for listening to today's Bulwark podcast, and we'll be back tomorrow and do this all over again.