The Bulwark Podcast XX
[0] Good morning.
[1] Welcome to the Bullwark podcast.
[2] I'm Charlie Sykes.
[3] Robert Draper has seen it all.
[4] I love this blurb from his new book, Weapons of Mass Dillusion, when the Republican Party lost its mind.
[5] He says Draper has seen the good, the bad, and the ugly.
[6] He's never seen it this ugly.
[7] Welcome to the podcast today, Robert.
[8] Thanks for having me back, Charlie.
[9] So the weapons of mass delusion, you know, there have been so many books written about, you know, the, the various history of the Republican Party losing its mind.
[10] I wrote one of them.
[11] But you really have this focus in on this pivot point.
[12] It is the story since January 6th, 2021.
[13] This was not the book you thought it was going to be, was it?
[14] When you signed on to write this book back in December 2020, what did you think it was going to be?
[15] You know, I mean, the assumption was Trump is defeated.
[16] Trump's going to go away.
[17] You thought you were going to write about what?
[18] Yeah, that's, I mean, good question, Charlie, and I wasn't sure.
[19] I just was anxious to see after Trump had lost in 2020, where the Republican Party would turn to next to find new leadership.
[20] I didn't expect that Trump would go to a way altogether, but I did expect that there would be a concerted effort on the part of the GOP to find a new party leader and that there would be some manner.
[21] of intramural skirmishing within the party while that took place.
[22] But you know, you're exactly right.
[23] I got the contract in mid -December 2020.
[24] Trump hadn't yet conceded, but, you know, most of his figured that he would.
[25] We certainly didn't banked on what occurred a few weeks later.
[26] But it happened that I reported for duty, basically, to begin my interviews for this book on the morning of January 6, 2021, Inside the Capitol.
[27] and the circumstances that unfolded, unfolded before my eyes, both inside and then outside the Capitol.
[28] And needless to say, I came away from that experience with a very different notion of what this book would be.
[29] But I also figured that the stakes were so calamitous for the GOP that surely what had taken place at the Capitol would force them into a posture of introspection and penitence and a determination not to fan those kind of flames again.
[30] That, as we know, is not what occurred.
[31] And so I was there to witness over an 18 -month period the movement of the party towards a doubling down in embracing the mega -centricity of the party.
[32] And that's an extraordinary story, even for those of us that thought we'd already lived through this extraordinary story.
[33] And see, this book, Weapons of Mass Delusion, covers the 18 months since January 6th, what you call the pivot point between, this is not normal to, this is dangerous and it's not going away.
[34] And I think that if I could just, the heart of this book is the recognition of how deeply ingrained this is in the party that the threat has gone way beyond Trump himself, right?
[35] I mean, and there's a lot in this book about, and I know a lot of the coverage and your other discussions have dealt with people like Marjorie Taylor Green, who is certainly a weapon of mass delusion.
[36] But really, it's the real danger is the fact that millions of Americans believe this, that it's penetrated, it's changed the nature of our politics.
[37] And so talk to me about that a little bit and how rapidly this has happened.
[38] Sure.
[39] I mean, yeah, that's something that I did not fully appreciate what you've just described until I, you know, several months into reporting this book and traveling throughout the United States, going to Trump rallies, going as well to far right events, and interviewing people within the party apparatus as well as grassroots activists in swing states like Georgia and Arizona.
[40] And what was abundantly clear to me in a way that I wouldn't have appreciated, you know, from behind my desk in Washington, was, just how the stolen election had become central to Maga theology, because it really played into a larger belief, Charlie, that Trump's electorate, the Trump's base already felt like America was being stolen away from them.
[41] And so the election became not only a metaphor for that, but also confirmation of it.
[42] And then would lead in turn to other, you know, adjacent notions of other things that had been of liberties that had been thwarted, mask mandates and vaccines forced onto them, the opening of the border to augur in the great replacement theory and the persecution of peaceful patriots who gathered at the Capitol on January the 6th.
[43] I mean, all of these were lies, but they all play into each other.
[44] they all reinforce each other and they all reinforce most of all the notion, not only that they have been wronged, the Trump's base, which I define as tens of millions of Republicans, but also the people who have done this to them are incorrigibly evil.
[45] And this means not just the Democrats who they call radical socialists or communists or whatever, but also the swamp, the deep state, the media, big tech, all of these forces have colluded and basically are on the business end of what the MAG constituency now sees as a sort of holy war.
[46] So speaking of the MAGIC constituencies, Elise Jordan sat down with a focus group of Trump voters from Pennsylvania yesterday.
[47] And I think a lot of people who heard this or saw this on NBC were We're just blown away by it.
[48] I'm guessing that none of this will come as a surprise to you.
[49] But let me just play one minute of her discussion of Doug Maastriano, who is the Republican candidate for governor in Pennsylvania, his role.
[50] He was one of the protesters on January 6th.
[51] And she asks this group of Trump voters whether they think that that's a problem.
[52] Here's what they had to say.
[53] Doug Maastriano was at the insurrection, and he was photographed breaching one of the restricted areas.
[54] Is that okay?
[55] Which area?
[56] Because I saw a video where Capitol officers were taking away barriers and unlocking doors.
[57] So, I mean, I...
[58] They opened the gates.
[59] So it shouldn't be disqualifying for an elected official if they participated in January 6th?
[60] He didn't strike anybody.
[61] He didn't hurt anybody.
[62] And the only one that died was a protester there, not a capital police officer.
[63] An unarmed female veteran.
[64] That's the only one that died.
[65] That's the only one who died.
[66] A police officer did die.
[67] No. So it was a stroke.
[68] That's not on site.
[69] By that, that's because he shouldn't have been a police officer.
[70] So what do you make, though, overall of January 6th?
[71] I mean, it was watching that footage, it was pretty disturbing.
[72] I mean, there were people throwing excrement at the walls, and it was our, you know, it's the Capitol.
[73] It was a lot like Antifa's actions to me. Except on a much smaller scale, it looked the same as the Black Clouds Matter rights.
[74] So, Robert, there is the complete, like, alternative view of January.
[75] 6, you were there, could you possibly have imagined on January 6th, seeing what you saw, hearing what you heard, and 18 months later hearing people say, oh, it wasn't that bad.
[76] It was, you know, basically, you know, Black Lives Matter and Tifa, cops let them in.
[77] Yeah, I mean, I'm getting this sixth sense of deja vu listening to that because I've, you know, in my reporting, I encountered people who would characterize everything just as at least Jordan heard from that focus group.
[78] I did, you know, I could have imagined what I saw, but not in the U .S. You know, maybe in other conflict zones I've been in like Somalia or Libya or the Democratic Republic of Congo or Sudan, but not in the U .S. And you're correct, Charlie, I certainly would not have guessed that this kind of en masse delusion would take place in which, and you'll notice in listening to that focus group, how their, how their rationales kind of, kind of migrate in a sort of zigzagging illogic where it's an ordinary tourist event and people were allowed in.
[79] It was no big deal.
[80] But there was violence.
[81] But that violence, of course, had to be the work of Antifa.
[82] No, Antifa members have been arrested and charged.
[83] There are also, you know, the belief that maybe the FBI set up peaceful protesters and agitated them.
[84] Maybe this was crisis acting on the part of Speaker Nancy Pelosi and others.
[85] And then ultimately that the people who are in the D .C. jail under indictment for January 6 -related offenses are basically political prisoners.
[86] You know, this is kind of like the 2020 election fraud thing where you proceed from a basic belief that the election has been stolen and you throw a bowl of spaghetti against the wall and whatever sticks works.
[87] You know, that's back when I started reporting.
[88] It was, you know, all of these dominion kinds of things.
[89] And then Cyber Ninjas was going to uncover this in their Arizona audit.
[90] And when that failed to occur, the latest proof positive of election theft was Dinesh D'Sou's pseudo -documentary, yeah, 2000 mules, which also proved nothing.
[91] But simply because of its very existence served as a kind of proof that something nefarious must have occurred.
[92] And this is really a subset of the larger.
[93] delusion?
[94] I mean, the whole big lie about the election and about January 6th.
[95] I mean, it also applies to COVID vaccines, pedophilia and TFA, all of this, right?
[96] I mean, there's just so much out there right now.
[97] Is there a connective tissue between all of that?
[98] Yeah, the connective tissue, I guess, is twofold.
[99] I mean, one, that America, as these Trump supporters, know it, has been stolen away from them.
[100] And that relatedly, there is an encompassing fraud that has been perpetrated on these Americans.
[101] And that fraud encompasses not just election fraud, but judicial fraud, medical fraud, media fraud, fraud, of all types.
[102] And what this then requires is endless auditing, endless investigation.
[103] But in the meantime, while we're getting to the bottom of all of these instances of encompassing, fraud.
[104] The truth is up for grabs and the truth is whatever anybody says that is.
[105] And this means now we're in a state where tellingly, if perversely, former President Trump has created his own social media platform called truth social, where when he tweets out something that is called a truth.
[106] And we have members of the right -wing media ecosystem with dubious names like one America network and real America's voice.
[107] So there has been an appropriation of the word and the notion of truth, and this has been enabled in many ways, by saying that everything we in fact know to be true is false.
[108] Yes.
[109] Orwell weeps.
[110] So what I don't think we're doing justice to is the granular nature of your reporting as you as you describe the scene on January 6th.
[111] I mean, there's a lot of startling new details and a lot of characters in this.
[112] I want to just let people know that this is just a hell of a story.
[113] Now, what I think is interesting is the way that you handle Trump in the relationship of Trump to these various characters into this larger phenomenon, because you don't treat Trump like he's the puppet master of people like Marjorie Taylor Green, Paul Gossar, or even Kevin McCarthy.
[114] They have, like, developed with their own momentum of awfulness.
[115] Sure, that's right.
[116] Well, so two different parts to that, Charlie.
[117] The first part is that Trump, you know, for all his authoritarian emerald, impulseless, nonetheless gives the lie to his own claim that I can shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and my people wouldn't care.
[118] Actually, there is a truth to that.
[119] Maybe he could shoot someone and they wouldn't care.
[120] But if he said, you know what, I actually want to appoint a couple of pro -Rovie Wade Supreme Court justices that would be the end of his presidency.
[121] If he were to say, let's do comprehensive immigration reform where there was a path to citizenship, that would be the end.
[122] If If he ever made good on the discussion he'd had with Senator Joe Manchin following one of the school shootings that we really need to do something about these terrible guns, that also would have been the end of his presidency.
[123] So he recognizes the frailty of his power over his constituents.
[124] And he is for them only so long as he sides with those particular issues.
[125] Okay, so that's one thing.
[126] to Paul Gosar, Marjorie Taylor Green, and other avatars of the MAGA movement, it's certainly true that they have taken more than a page from Trump, but it's also the case that, in both the cases of Marjorie Taylor Green and Paul Gosar, that they're more extreme than Trump, more shrill in what they say and how they say it.
[127] And particularly in Greene's case, you know, someone who came out of nowhere as this QAnonaut obsessed, affluent CrossFit gym co -owner in Georgia to, in spite of all of that, when a seat in Congress and then one month into her tenure gets stripped of her committee assignments, where one might have figured that, well, that's the end of Marjorie Taylor Green.
[128] She instead posted this monster first quarter financial report, and since then, has outraised all but four of the 210 Republican member.
[129] of the House.
[130] It's an unheard of performance for a freshman, but that is only like one indicator of the level of influence that she has over the Republican Party.
[131] And yes, it derives from her close association with Donald Trump, but most of all, it derives from her understanding of that base, her ability to play to that base, and the recognition that as long as she is seen as the in -house house warrior for the MAGA base, House leadership like Kevin McCarthy needs to placate her.
[132] I mean, it really also illustrates how the center of gravity, of power, of influence in the Republican Party has shifted.
[133] And because, I mean, she is a creature of that base as well, right?
[134] I mean, that right now she doesn't need to go to Kevin McCarthy to get the source of her power.
[135] She knows that it's, that it is the ground up.
[136] It is the grassroots fundraising.
[137] It is, you know, the people who will rally around her.
[138] And that's the political reality.
[139] So she's a major character in your book.
[140] so is Paul Gossar, and you tell some, you know, for those of us that, you know, were exhausted by Paul Gossar, but you point out why we, you know, you cannot ignore him.
[141] You're right.
[142] Paul Gossar responded to the horrific massacre of 19 school children and two adults in Yuvaldi, Texas on May 24th, after first consulting the musings on a far -right 4 -chan message board.
[143] The shooter, he concluded that day on Twitter, was a transsexual leftist illegal alien.
[144] And everything in that claim was false.
[145] But as you point out, our leaders are highly unlikely anymore to be penalized for fact -free statements.
[146] In fact, their far more likely to be rewarded for it.
[147] Yeah, I mean, and indeed, Gossar was not penalized.
[148] He was, you know, in general, extreme statements that are also fact -free, like that particular one by Gossar's, there is an incentive structure for making them in the form of online don't.
[149] donations in the form of social media attention and in the form of being invited to appear at right -wing events.
[150] But it's also the case that McCarthy recognizes that if he were to punish Gosar, all he'd managed to do is make a martyr out of him.
[151] So instead, when the Democrats stripped Gosar of his committee assignments and censured him, McCarthy did a couple of things.
[152] First, he warned Steny Hoyer, the House Majority Leader, that there would be payback when the Republicans take back the majority, if they do, in a form of Democrats being stripped of their committee assignments.
[153] In other words, I know that I believe what you did was wrong, so I'm going to do the same thing.
[154] And then the other thing is that McCarthy turned to Gosar and promised not only that when McCarthy would become speaker, that Gosar would get committee assignments back, but that he would, and this is an explicit thing that McCarthy told Gosar and told Marjorie Green separately about her situation, you will get better assignments than before.
[155] So they have actually been rewarded for their outrageous conduct.
[156] So you spoke with Marjorie Taylor Green.
[157] You talked to her about what she would expect to take.
[158] get from Kevin McCarthy.
[159] Yeah, yeah.
[160] She said, well, she said a few things.
[161] I mean, one of them is Plum Committee Assignments.
[162] She wants to be on oversight and on Judiciary.
[163] And James Comer, and James Comer, who's likely to be the chair of House Oversight, has already said that he would welcome Marjorie Taylor Green on his committee.
[164] So there's that.
[165] Also, she strongly expects, And we'll push for the Republican majority to initiate impeachment inquiries against not only Biden, but several of his cabinet members.
[166] But she expected, you know, I think more broadly, Charlie, for McCarthy to be mindful of her policy objectives, which are quite out of the mainstream and, you know, include but are not limited to, you know, sealing off the border and prohibiting all immigration, legal or illegal, for four years.
[167] Christian government prayer in schools.
[168] Yeah, right, all of that stuff.
[169] And it's, and because the argument that she made to me was, look, you know, I've told the Republicans in conference, I've told them this, that when you guys controlled everything, 2017, 2018, you didn't get a damn thing done.
[170] So her phraseology was, you shit the bed.
[171] And she said, you know, it's, and that's why I ran for Congress.
[172] You know, the Democrats were bad enough, but you guys just got rolled.
[173] And I'm not going to let that happen now that I'm in.
[174] Congress and them in a position of influence.
[175] So she's not only going to get these, you know, plum assignments and things of that nature, but that she fully intends to see her policy objectives enacted.
[176] And if it requires an internal civil war within the Republican Party, she has said to me, I am here for that.
[177] I think she's made that clear.
[178] You know, as you point out, we really haven't paid that much attention to the kinds of policy things that she's been saying on a pretty, you know, on a pretty regular basis.
[179] And, you know, she wants to ban abortion.
[180] She wants to limit all gun control, kill all climate change legislation, put doctors in prison if they provide medical service to transgender youth.
[181] I am old enough to remember when Republicans would want to sideline or isolate someone like that.
[182] Instead, however, they are courting her.
[183] So J .D. Vance went out of his way to get her endorsement.
[184] Kerry Lake went out of her.
[185] her way to get her endorsement.
[186] And so rather than sort of treat her as an outlier, the, you know, the mainstream of the party is saying, yeah, we really need you, and we're not going to push back against any of these ideas.
[187] Meanwhile, we see some of the more rising stars, I guess you could say, like Kerry Lake.
[188] I mean, using the same kind of language that Marjorie Taylor Green has to suggest that the Democrats coddle pedophiles and want to place groomers in every schoolroom.
[189] the notions that Green was promulgating from the outset, you know, and calling Democrats, communists, for example.
[190] I mean, now you, you know, the NRC has used this in its blast emails for fundraising purposes, you know, alluding to Pelosi being, you know, being basically communist friendly.
[191] And the notion of impeachment for Biden was something that she'd been pushing literally from the first day that Biden took office and was greeted with eye rolls back then.
[192] Now you hear it all the time.
[193] So without in any way moderating her stances, they have become more central to the Republican Party's rhetoric and policy objectives than seemed imaginable when she first came out of nowhere.
[194] You made a point on Twitter that was very, very interesting.
[195] Nancy Mace, who is a conservative congresswoman, who clearly despises Marjorie Taylor Green and has been in some pretty nasty fights with her.
[196] But she uses her talking points now, doesn't she?
[197] That's right.
[198] She does.
[199] Yeah.
[200] And those, I mean, clearly Mace is interested in getting at her base in the first district of South Carolina.
[201] She needs them to be able to prevail.
[202] And, you know, a pretty interesting, I'm not sure it's a totally tight race, but it's, you know, it's competitive.
[203] And to get her base out, she's playing the pedophile card.
[204] know, and talking about Democrats being soft on pedophilia and about protecting children.
[205] Very Q &on -adjacent stuff and quite ironic, given that Nancy Mace absolutely loathed Marjor Taylor Green, and the feeling is mutual.
[206] And in fact, Greene told me, for which I reported my book, that she had in turn bad -mouthed Mace to Donald Trump, who in turn then endorsed Mace's primary opponent.
[207] So, you know, these two really can't stand each other.
[208] But basically, here's Nancy Mace taking a page out of Marjorie Taylor Green's extremist playbook.
[209] So speaking of Kerry Lake, we just mentioned Kerry Lake in passing here.
[210] You did an event with my colleague Tim Miller last week.
[211] And you both agreed that if Carrie Lake wins in November, that she would be the odds -on favorite to become Trump's vice president, unless Trump doesn't run, in which case you really think that Lake would be the odds -on -favor to be the 2024 GOP nominee?
[212] Has it really gone that far, that fast?
[213] No question.
[214] We're talking about President Perry Lake now?
[215] Sure, sure.
[216] Yeah, we're talking about someone who is very, very gifted in front of the camera, who possesses Donald Trump and Marjorie Taylor Green's absolute shamelessness and who can articulate the most extreme messages and policy objectives, but really cow members of the media, political opponents, et cetera.
[217] No, I mean, I think that she is the most polished politician, you know, neophyte, certainly, but that I've seen in a very, very long time.
[218] And I frankly, you know, that I have always felt a bit skeptical about DeSantis as this rising star.
[219] I mean, you and I heard this about a guy, you know, pretty well, Scott Walker.
[220] And yeah, that, you know, Walker just had it in the bag.
[221] I mean, he, he was everything that conservatives wanted to see.
[222] But he was a crappy campaigner.
[223] And, you know, I'm not convinced of DeSantis.
[224] I mean, seeing him with a Charlie Chris debate, you know, the other night.
[225] I mean, this guy is not polished, and I think that Carrie Lake would mop up the floor with him.
[226] So, yeah, I think that she is really a rising star, and it's interesting right now, like Marjorie Taylor Green, likes Lake a great deal, endorsed her, will campaign with her, et cetera.
[227] But it'll be interesting to see if she does win, and her star continues to rise.
[228] First of all, if Trump himself may be a bit concerned about that, of being eclipsed by Kerry Lake.
[229] And secondly, whether Green will also see Lake as the VP competition that she's very likely to be and act accordingly.
[230] I mean, I will say this by Green that thus far, she only tends to like, you know, go after people who she feels like have wronged her.
[231] She's never seen to show any kind of jealousy towards a Madden Gates or or anyone else who she thinks is in their lane.
[232] It's only when people have, in her view, wronged her.
[233] But that could change, you know, if Carrie Lake steals her thunder.
[234] This is what's so interesting because it's always a dangerous moment for a political party when they have too much success, and it happens too quickly for some of these people because then, of course, those knives do come out.
[235] And I think it's fascinating, the possibility, okay, so Kerry Lake versus Marjorie Taylor Green, are they going to start to get jealous?
[236] What are they going to think down in Mar -a -Lago here?
[237] Who's going to be dishing out the oppo research?
[238] Or DeSantis is people going to be pushing up, you know, oppo research on Kerry Lake.
[239] And this is, that's why I think next year is going to be awfully interesting in Republican politics, which leads me to Speaker Kevin McCarthy.
[240] I honestly don't know why he wants the job other than just sort of the muscle memory of you want power for the sake of power because that is going to be, that's going to be a fucking circus.
[241] Yeah, it's, you know, not for nothing did Patrick McHenry, who McCarthy really wanted to run for majority whip.
[242] say, I'm not going to be a vote counter with this unhurtable group of caps.
[243] I'd rather be chairman of financial services.
[244] McCarthy, on the other hand, has coveted the speaker's gavel for a very, very long time, probably since he arrived in D .C. And, you know, someone close to him told me some time ago that, look, McCarthy probably wouldn't, you know, he's not looking to be Speaker of the House for eight years, you know, like a Nancy Pelosi or something.
[245] He might do it for a couple years and then go on and make millions, you know, as a techie in Silicon Valley.
[246] But, you know, never underestimate McCarthy's willingness to eat bowlful after bowlful of crap.
[247] And in fact, that's literally, you know, a parable in the TV series, The Wire that Patrick McKinney alerted McCarthy to, basically about a mayor of Baltimore who literally asked to eat one bowl of shit after the next.
[248] That's what the job is.
[249] And, you know, McCarthy has to, you know, has a capacity for doing that because, you know, he also in his own way possesses an absence of shame and is willing to do whatever it takes to maintain power.
[250] He's no idea of a fearless leader, but I will say for McCarthy that he's a good infighter, and he knows the inside game much better than, say, a Marjorie Taylor Green does.
[251] So, you know, Green may be able to use the MAGA constituency to try and roll McCarthy.
[252] But, I mean, in terms of, of McCarthy's Machiavellian cunning, he already, you know, since has won the speakership, if indeed they regain the majority, because Green and other members of the House Freedom Caucus don't have anyone to put up against him.
[253] I mean, it's either him or Nancy Pelosi again.
[254] You also zero in on the intellectual bankruptcy around McCarthy, and the chapter describes the ouster of Liz Cheney is fascinating.
[255] I mean, at first, Kevin McCarthy.
[256] I mean, and McCarthy, you know, did a lot of flip -flopping around in the beginning of 2021, breaking with Trump and then running down to Mara Lago, initially embracing Liz Cheney and then cutting her loose.
[257] So tell me what happened there.
[258] How did that relationship go sour so fast?
[259] Yeah, I mean, it's, well, you know, I think it's fair to say that McCarthy and Cheney have never been each other's type and that McCarthy always viewed Liz Cheney warily as someone who, it's easy to forget this, as recently as a couple of years ago, was, you know, one of the absolute ascendant Republicans, probably the most formidable woman in Republican politics, and someone for whom the sky seemed the limit, speaker of the House, governor, president of the United States, vice president, any of these seemed possible.
[260] And McCarthy was well aware of that.
[261] In fact, I mentioned in the book that when McCarthy happened to be at some speaking event, And I think Chicago and to questions from the audience that somebody asked about, you know, were there any other, like, Republican stars that McCarthy could think of and where he saw them going?
[262] He said, yeah, Liz Cheney should be a great Secretary of Defense.
[263] And it was definitely McCarthy's way of saying, please don't think of her as speaker.
[264] But he still saw it as best for his coalition, the McCarthy coalition, to placate the establishment Republicans of whom, Liz Cheney was a part and the MAGA Republicans of whom Marjorie Taylor Green was.
[265] But when push came to shove and so many conservatives bridled at how Cheney not only voted to impeach Trump from her position as conference chair and then made the announcement that she would do so, again, in her capacity as conference chair, but continued to denounce Trump and continued to say he had no place in their party.
[266] that was an affront to so many Republicans that she ultimately lost a lot of her, you know, a lot of her standing within the conference.
[267] And McCarthy could see that, and it was just stepping on McCarthy's message.
[268] It was a constant distraction.
[269] He also felt in the February 3rd, 2021 special conference that was held to discuss whether or not to keep Cheney on as Republican conference chair that he had saved her bacon that day, that he had given this speech.
[270] beach that saved the day.
[271] There is, by the way, no evidence that he flipped more than maybe one vote that day.
[272] But that's what McCarthy felt like.
[273] And he felt like Liz Cheney never showed gratitude, never was thankful.
[274] And instead was just a pain in the ass.
[275] And meanwhile, Cheney was disgusted by McCarthy going to Marlago in late January to kiss the ring of Donald Trump.
[276] She thought that that was the moment of which the party could have divested itself of Trump once and for all.
[277] And here's McCarthy doing the opposite.
[278] So there was no love lost by the time that she was finally pushed out.
[279] And now the two truly cannot disguise their loathing of each other.
[280] So let's talk about the Democrats.
[281] You know, you describe the somewhat feckless attempts by Democrats to push back against all of this madness.
[282] I guess because it is so much madness, because you do feel like you're taking crazy pills, have the Democrats figured out how to deal with this new reality?
[283] I mean, sometimes it feels like they're playing completely different games, completely different universes.
[284] Right, right.
[285] I mean, it starts with, you know, one manner in which I sympathize the Democrats is that, you know, they like Republicans and like myself, were inside the Capitol.
[286] Their lives were at risk that day on January the 6th.
[287] And that was in and of itself a traumatizing moment.
[288] it's easy to be re -traumatized, not only when you go back to work in the same place where all that occurred, but also then go to work amongst Republicans who are in a state of denial about what occurred or a state of revisionism about what had occurred.
[289] And then you top that off with the fact that there are some Republicans who carry this kind of violent swagger to them, talking about carrying firearms into the Capitol, using violent rhetoric.
[290] and the Democrats have been, they're frankly afraid, a lot of them are of the Republicans, on top of which there are a lot of Democrats who just won't do business with Republicans anymore, or at least the Republicans who say that 2020 was stolen.
[291] They think that's a, you know, a corrosive lie to continue to promulgate and that disqualifies Republicans who do push that lie from being the kind of people that they want to do business with.
[292] So there's all of that.
[293] But I also think that, you know, the Democrats are, look, they're the party in power.
[294] So they have to answer for all of what's taking place in America today, including inflation and other problems in the economy, not to mention Biden's low approval ratings.
[295] And I think they have struggled to reckon with all of that while at the same time, you know, talking about the Republicans as a threat to democracy.
[296] And I don't, you know, I think they've been frustrated that, the average American is really, really concerned about economic issues and tends to view these first midterms into a president's term as a referendum on the party in power.
[297] And, yeah, I think they clearly struggle.
[298] And, of course, we have the older story of all of the Republicans are rationalized, why they can't push back against this because, you know, they may be weapons of mass delusion, but the voters support those weapons.
[299] And so you talk to many of them, these.
[300] the famous anonymous Republicans who say that I can't denounce them because then I'll get primary it.
[301] I'll go the way of Liz Cheney.
[302] And if I did, I'd be replaced by somebody much worse like Matt Gates.
[303] And so you'll be thanking me someday, Robert.
[304] Yeah, I can't tell you how many times.
[305] I mean, you've probably heard this a lot too, Charlie, right?
[306] I mean, it's, you know, I wish I had a dollar for every time I did.
[307] I'd be retiring this year.
[308] And, you know, and there's a certain, you know, I can sympathize to a certain extent with that viewpoint, and particularly when it comes from someone like Peter Meyer, the freshman from Michigan, who he didn't sign on to spending all his time trying to lecture fellow Republicans while trying to convince his constituents that the election was fair and not stolen.
[309] That's not why he wanted to come to Washington, and so he was desperate to turn the page on all of this stuff, but the facts on the ground just made it very difficult to do that.
[310] And I, you know, I guess where I've had difficulty understanding these Republicans who sort of mainstream Republicans who go to ground when the crazy talk, you know, ensues because they don't want to defy the crazy talk and risk getting primary and defeated is that so how in your view then sane Republican does the crazy go away?
[311] Yeah.
[312] Does it just really just, you know, does it just dwindle of its own accord?
[313] I mean, that's in theory that seems plausible, but for the fact that you've got tens of millions of people who believe all of these lies that I recited earlier, principally among them, that the election was stolen.
[314] And we now know the playbook that if Republicans lose this or that election, they're almost certain to challenge, you know, its fairness and to allege theft.
[315] And they'll have constituents who believe it.
[316] So washing out of the system, this kind of disinformation requires a, you know, sort of, I mean, it may require mass deprogramming, but in any event, the, you know, the enabling in the meantime of it by simply just not talking about it or worse still by saying, well, yeah, you know, people are concerned about our elections.
[317] You know, there's a lot of people think something bad happened.
[318] And so I do, yeah, sure, audits.
[319] Why not, you know, isn't helping things.
[320] Yes.
[321] I mean, that does get to the question.
[322] How does this end?
[323] You were on PBS the other day and said, are millions of people suddenly going to wake up and stop believing the conspiracies?
[324] You know, is just people become exhausted?
[325] I don't know how it ends.
[326] But I think, you know, again, one of the major takeaways I have from your book is as you point out, the Republican Party doesn't need Trump anymore.
[327] You know, we're all focused on Donald Trump.
[328] What happens if Donald Trump doesn't run or he's indicted or eats too many big Max or whatever, because he showed them a blueprint that they're going to run with, that you don't have to get people who don't like you to vote for you, right?
[329] It's easier to get people who like you to love you and then demonize the other side.
[330] And then if you actually don't win an election, you just claim that it was stolen.
[331] I mean, it's a whole new ethos.
[332] And you're seeing talented younger Republicans running with it.
[333] That's right.
[334] Yeah.
[335] And you're exactly right, Charlie, that that does not require any longer the assistance of Trump since he showed them the way.
[336] And as I mentioned before, we may very well be seeing Kerry Lake follow that path all the way to, if she, if she loses, to down this rabbit hole of unfounded claims of election theft.
[337] I was there on her primary night when ballots were coming in late and there were some problems in one county with counting the bouts.
[338] And she immediately started saying, what in the hell is going on and strongly alleging, you know, or strongly implying that it's, you know, something malevolent was taking place here when it was nothing of the kind.
[339] And so that's one thing to be concerned about.
[340] But of course, the other thing to be concerned about is that when you are not only just lying about the election and you are whipping up your base, but you're also whipping them up by demonizing the other side, not simply saying they're wrong or wrongheaded or immoral, but that they are godless.
[341] that they are unpatriotic, that they are evil, that they are human scum, you know, describing them in otherized terms, then you really do run the risk of convincing your constituents that they are in the midst of a holy war.
[342] And this is a holy war that at the moment is just has rhetoric as weapons.
[343] It's not pleasant to have people call you and issue death threats and all that, but those are rhetorical, you know, mostly.
[344] Yeah, mostly.
[345] That's right.
[346] But, But we've certainly seen instances January 6th being at present the apotheosis of these of where actual physical violence broke out.
[347] And I really do fear that the continued use of this kind of rhetoric in the furtherance of objectives as lame as, you know, ratcheting up their online donations or their social media influence could really lead to violent outcomes.
[348] Yeah, I mean, that's the problem.
[349] You know, when you weaponize what you call the politics of hysteria, you have no sense of shame.
[350] You're weaponizing hysteria, and there are sometimes violent results.
[351] We shouldn't be surprised by all of that.
[352] So, and I know you probably get tired of this, but where does this end?
[353] What is the boiling point?
[354] Because it strikes me that in this particular universe, you have to keep turning the temperature up.
[355] If it is a politics of hysteria and outrage, you must always be outraged.
[356] You must always be hysterical.
[357] You never can allow people to go, okay, well, that was good enough.
[358] Now let's move on.
[359] Let's pause.
[360] Let's be reasonable.
[361] Let's be prudent.
[362] It always has to be increasing, right?
[363] So as bad as it was before January 6th, it's worse now.
[364] As bad as it is now, is it going to be worse six months from now?
[365] Yeah, I mean, as you describe it, Charlie, it does sound like a flame so, you know, so crazed that it might burn out, that, you know, kind of like the raps and the proverbial experiment.
[366] who keep hitting the button that then gives them doses of cocaine that ultimately they'll kill over and die.
[367] I hope that's not what happens to America, but I'm also not convinced that this just stops of its own accord, particularly when there's now a whole cottage industry that supports, that incentivizes this kind of crazy shrill and quasi -apocalyptic talk.
[368] The only thing that comes to mind as to how this ends for the Republican Party is if these forces take power and do a miserable job of it to the extent that the public is revolted by it and finally turns the reins back over to the more sensible Republicans who say, okay, Maga Republicans who take leave of their senses, we've done it your way.
[369] And now we're all but finished as a party.
[370] We have sustained a succession of election cycle losses, and now we're going to do it our way.
[371] But, I mean, it would require the broader support of the electorate.
[372] And I think that that comes only after failure.
[373] That's the only thing that I can think of.
[374] I'm just saying that as an observation.
[375] I'm not saying it as a prescription or as a judgment.
[376] But at least as I contemplate the possibilities as to how we get out of this.
[377] Adam Kinsinger was the one who, you know, first mentioned this to me. He said, I just think we're going to need to lose a lot.
[378] And once we lose a lot, then, you know, the Republicans as a party will say, well, we're about to cease to exist as a party unless we try something else, which requires coming to our census.
[379] The problem is, of course, that losing a lot would have to take place over maybe three, four election cycles.
[380] So we're going to have to strap in.
[381] This isn't going away anytime soon.
[382] Yeah, because you're right.
[383] I mean, you know, the first election cycle, we already know what will happen while it was stolen, you know, it was stolen, and maybe they prevail then, and we have a constitutional crisis, but they still prevail.
[384] And then maybe they lose again and lie again, and again, govern incompetently.
[385] You know, so, you know, there is the possibility, and I know that this is what Republicans have done in some, you know, in the cases of Georgia with Governor Kemp, and I think Governor Ducey has tried to do this in Arizona as well, to promote these so -called called election reforms as a means of reinstilling confidence in the election system.
[386] And many of these supposed reforms address problems that didn't exist at all, but at least will lend the appearance of, quote unquote, restoring election integrity.
[387] I think that, you know, thus far, I've seen very little evidence that Republicans are buying it.
[388] They're still, you know, we know now are reports in Arizona of, you know, people, you know, these vigilantes, you know, watching the drop boxes and, you know, wearing Kevlar.
[389] And so I don't, that's been, you know, one effort, but I'm not sure that that's what's going to turn the trick.
[390] The book is Weapons of Mass Dillusioned, When the Republican Party Lost Its Mind, it is an incredible, riveting, urgent, immediate read.
[391] Robert Draper, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.
[392] Thank you so much for having me on, Charlie.
[393] I appreciate it.
[394] The Bull Work podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio production by Jonathan Siri.
[395] I'm Charlie Sykes.
[396] Thank you for listening to today's Bull Work podcast, and we'll be back tomorrow to do this all over again.