S5 E11: The Gloves Came Off | Rachel

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[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

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[10] Something was wrong covers mature topics that can be triggering.

[11] Topics such as emotional, physical, and sexual abuse.

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[13] Opinions of guests on the show are their own and don't necessarily reflect my views or the views of this podcast.

[14] Please note, I am not a therapist or a doctor.

[15] If you or someone you love is being abused, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1 -800 -799 -7233.

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[18] Things began to get really strained with my father and me. But again, I think I was so good at compartmentalizing that it would be like, well, you know, it's the next day and we're going to go to the beach and surf and everything's great and we're going to have fun.

[19] And then, you know, you would kind of just put it to the side until the next thing happened.

[20] And it was like, you never really dealt with it.

[21] And so when the next time it did happen, it was like tenfold because you're remembering all the other times that it happened.

[22] Yeah.

[23] Do you feel like the church there was less culty then?

[24] It sounds like the church there was actually more of like a regular church.

[25] And do you think that's why your dad's paranoia was maybe worse?

[26] Definitely.

[27] I think it was many things.

[28] I think my dad wanted to be accepted.

[29] I think he didn't want them to find out what was going on.

[30] I think part of the culty behavior in our church came from my parents' beliefs and part of it came from their need to control things.

[31] it wasn't necessarily like a dogma that they lived by.

[32] It was just something that came out that they couldn't control.

[33] Or, I mean, they could control if they wanted to.

[34] But, like, they were so caught up in themselves.

[35] So they couldn't even see that they were acting out of that.

[36] Not that I'm ever excusing them.

[37] No, no. I hear what you're saying, though.

[38] I guess, well, this is part of my issue growing up is that I've always been so good at understanding why people do things, like, mentally, like, trying to figure out, like, the mental reasons why people do stuff.

[39] And for me, because of the way I am, that makes it easier for me to, because when I understand someone, it's a lot easier to not hate them.

[40] And unfortunately, I understood my parents very well.

[41] And I knew exactly why they were the way they were.

[42] And that made me give them so much more grace and so much more forgiveness and chances.

[43] Because I knew they were operating out of a place of hurt.

[44] I knew they were operating out of a place of fear and insecurity.

[45] And I wanted to protect them and I didn't want them to feel bad.

[46] I think Hawaii really like allowed me and Hannah and maybe some of my other siblings, but me especially to see that like there was light at the end of the tunnel if I could just grow up and get out.

[47] Yes.

[48] Like here's the thing.

[49] Like it was never like, oh, our parents are abusive or our parents are culty or our parents are like morally inept.

[50] It was our parents are just like shitty parents.

[51] And we just need to get away.

[52] You know, we just need to deal with it and, you know, hold our tongues until we can get out.

[53] Honestly, a lot of me, you don't know me well, honestly, a lot of the abuse, Hannah and my father seemed to, like, when I, when I say abuse, I don't mean, when I say abuse, I don't mean spanking.

[54] Like the regular stuff that we went through that honestly was abuse as well, but in my brain, the slaps and the and the pushes and the hurt, like the stuff that was like, we were always brought up believing that like physical abuse was bad, but spanking wasn't abuse.

[55] It was discipline.

[56] So the abuse that I went through outside of the spanking really mostly happened to me. I think there was one time when my sister Rebecca was little.

[57] I think she was like one and a half and she wasn't.

[58] moving fast enough and my father ripped her up by her arm and like spanked her and like basically like pushed her out of the way.

[59] But the majority of the stuff happened to me. And so I don't think I grew up with a narrative of my parents are abusers or my parents are going to hurt my siblings.

[60] It was my parents are going to hurt me and they don't seem to really be that bothered with my siblings or they don't seem as physically violent with my siblings.

[61] And again, part of that goes into I'm the troublemaker.

[62] I can't keep my mouth shut.

[63] So we got there and I think it was fine for the first couple months, maybe even the first year.

[64] The stuff began to get really bad.

[65] No, not even the first year.

[66] Probably six months in.

[67] They started to fight a lot and it was like our lives were better for the most part and like the abuse towards us was pretty chill.

[68] There were so much to do and so many different people.

[69] I think it kind of lessened because we weren't around each other as much or we had activities and we were around other people a lot more.

[70] And I think being around other people a lot more definitely added to our ability, I think, to be around each other without fighting so much.

[71] It's like for the first couple months, mom was on board and I don't, I honestly was so in my own world.

[72] I didn't notice things were bad until they got really bad.

[73] So I don't know if it was like tension between her and my father, or I know she was very homesick, almost like a month afterwards, you know, she just wanted to go home.

[74] Like Scotland was her home.

[75] Well, she wasn't ever even from Scotland.

[76] She from South Africa, but she had always, like, wanted to visit Scotland, had always wanted to be there.

[77] Like in school when she was little, she said she wanted to go to Scotland.

[78] And she left in 1991 with my father, never ever went back, ever, after living in her entire life there, not even to visit.

[79] And then my father, and then my father, was very annoyed that she was homesick and rang in on his parade because he was living his best life as previously aforementioned.

[80] I remember them getting into like some of the worst screaming matches they had.

[81] And they'd had screaming matches growing up that I don't know if they just didn't care that we were around anymore.

[82] It almost felt like they were so angry, they didn't care.

[83] Because even like when they were fighting growing up, they would fight in Afrikaans.

[84] Afrikaans is basically like a Dutch dialect that the Dutch settlers in South Africa brought over with them and like we would always hear them yelling but you never really knew what they were talking about growing up.

[85] However, like in Hawaii, it felt like they just stopped caring.

[86] They stopped carrying like what they said to each other.

[87] Like I remember in Chinook and even in the post house, like they would have massive screaming fights but it was about like, well, you're doing something wrong and you're saying it and God doesn't want you to do that, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[88] When we got to Hawaii, it was like the gloves came off and they were being nasty and mean and saying stuff about, like, I just want to get a divorce.

[89] And I don't know how anyone could ever love you or like, I don't know how anyone could ever be married to you.

[90] And like, these are the people that have bragged for years about how they never will get a divorce and never wanted to get a divorce.

[91] And all of a sudden, like they're screaming to each other.

[92] Like, I'm sure our neighbors heard it.

[93] Like slamming doors, storming off, not coming back for a couple of.

[94] blowers.

[95] We're just like, oh my goodness.

[96] And part of us were like, oh, my God, if they going to get a divorce finally?

[97] But they were so volatile and they got like so personal and they'd never done that before, which made it all that more scary.

[98] If you got in the way while they were fighting, like you would get hurt.

[99] And it wouldn't even be directed at you.

[100] Just be like, get the hell out of my way.

[101] I think the more we saw them acting like children, the more outrage we became or the more outspoken we became.

[102] to the point where I challenged my father for the first time.

[103] And I remember we were all together and we were all like in our front yard about to go through the door.

[104] And he was saying something and I said no or like challenged him on it.

[105] And he backhanded me in front of everyone across the face.

[106] The face was interesting.

[107] Like I've been hit many places, but the face I'd never been hit in the face.

[108] And he'd never hit anyone in the face before in our family, except maybe my mom, I don't know.

[109] but he backhanded me and everyone was like I like flew into an angry rage and was yelling at him and I called him and I said you're just as bad as your dad and he's like I know I'm not as bad as my dad because blah blah blah blah blah like even in that moment where he's just backhanded his daughter and she's like how could you he's still self -righteous and trying to defend himself and I like stormed into my mom do oh she was screaming at him So my mother, probably around the time where I began to really show my frustration with the abuse.

[110] And I think my dad hurting Cassie kind of maybe woke her up a little bit to it.

[111] But she switched from like not caring and helping to policing him to an extraordinary degree.

[112] To the point where she was, it was kind of felt like she stopped policing me and started policing him.

[113] But the policing him was just her screaming at him, which then would turn into them screaming more, which would turn into us being terrified that we were going to get hit.

[114] again.

[115] It was just like one screaming match after another.

[116] And I think after my dad backhanded me and I didn't run away crying, like that's the last physical altercation we had.

[117] And I think I was 15 at the time.

[118] And I honestly think he stopped hitting me because he thought I'd hit him back, which I definitely would have.

[119] It became a lot more manipulative and a lot more like emotionally controlling.

[120] And that was also like around that time my father had gotten the opportunity.

[121] I think he'd finished his school course.

[122] And so he was asked to like help plant this satellite church with another pastor.

[123] It was kind of like an overseer.

[124] And it was going to be Sunday mornings, but it was on the other side town from where he lived.

[125] And so he just told us, hey, you're no longer going to go to the main church.

[126] You're going to come help me with this every morning to set up, every Sunday, which meant that we no longer got to go to any of our high school youth groups.

[127] Like your activities and stuff?

[128] Because you are now planting a new church that your dad's the pastor?

[129] Well, it's a satellite church.

[130] So basically you're setting up a smaller area or smaller church on a different part of town where you'll have your own like maybe worship team in songs.

[131] But then you set up a big screen and you stream the main service on the screen because they just had so many people.

[132] Like the church was so big.

[133] Like, they couldn't house everyone.

[134] And this was still the four square church.

[135] So it was still like an evangelical style, but not as much, let's say, than the one before.

[136] Like, yeah, very mainstream.

[137] Like cool worship and cool pastors and the smoke and lights and that kind of thing.

[138] Yeah, yeah, which, you know, for us poor little repressed kids, we were like, this is awesome!

[139] Right.

[140] You're like, I love lasers.

[141] What?

[142] Our interactions with kids our own age in a very uncontrolled environment where no parents were around ended.

[143] So we were still going to like dance classes and like whatever other church activities but our actual like hangout time with people our own age ended.

[144] And the more other like other adults began to like be in my life and invite me to things like who were like adults like in the high school ministry and they'd be like oh hey we're having this event or oh hey like there was a girl's sleepover where they were having like an all -girls sleepover and my father did not want me anywhere near that he was like nope that is like unholy you're just going to be talking about boys like it's just it's going to be an awful situation you shouldn't be there blah blah blah blah blah blah and the youth leader's like no it'll be a really good event for you I think he should come and I was like well my father won't let me and so they like confronted my dad in front of me and I was horrified I was like oh god no take me instead don't confront him or screwed and basically like got him to say like yeah you know like yeah okay she can come i was like oh my god this minute i was so excited i could not sleep like waiting for this event to come and the day of he starts complaining and complaining and complaining and complaining be like no i don't want to and like saying stuff and i was like but or saying like i don't think you should go i don't think this will be a good idea and i'd be like well you said i could go like you told him i could go and i uh eventually like he was on the bed talking to me about it and being like it's just so far i mean It's so exhausting.

[145] I have to do this.

[146] I have to do that.

[147] Blah, blah, blah, blah.

[148] And then I have to pick you up the next morning.

[149] and he instantly was like all right cool and walked out and I was like brokenhearted I don't know I had this I had a six sense in that moment of like that was going to be a really pivotal moment for all the girls in the youth group and that was going to be a real bonding experience and if I wasn't there like if I wasn't there for that I was never going to catch up to the friend group like I was never going to be as close with them I was never going to be able to do that and I was right that would have been a very pivotal moment for me and something that I really needed and something that I think would have helped me helped me feel like I belonged.

[150] First of all, why wasn't your mom able to take you to something like that?

[151] So my mother never learned how to drive and she didn't have her own bank account.

[152] My mother did not have any ability to even be on her own.

[153] It took us, I think, until I was like 16 for her to even have access to the bank account, not even have her own bank account to have access to my dad's bank account.

[154] Do you think it was by design because your dad didn't want her to have independence or did she want, did she not want to drive and not care?

[155] Well, the money stuff I think was definitely my dad was super controlling about it.

[156] The driving, I think this is another part of my mom's life where it was clear that she had massive anxiety around this or just she had trouble computing what she needed to do in her brain.

[157] So she had tried to learn how to drive in South Africa and had gotten to a certain point and then crashed and was so traumatized that she never went near it again.

[158] And actually when we were in Hawaii, she started learning trying to learn how to drive again and she got her learner's permit and she was going like it was going like okay and then we were on me hannah and my father were on a mission trip in argentina and my mother messaged my father and basically like please don't be angry like you're so handsome when you're not angry like i like your smile also i crashed the car and again she was too scared and wouldn't touch it again here's the thing he made her feel like crap constantly because she couldn't drive.

[159] But I honestly don't, I don't think he could have handled it if she could drive and have her own independence.

[160] I don't think he could have handled it.

[161] My parents are an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object.

[162] They are as stubborn as each other.

[163] So yes, my dad absolutely got what he wanted, but also if my mom didn't want to do something, you couldn't make her do it.

[164] So it was a constant battle for them.

[165] He was going to fight her about it.

[166] Yes, and she was just not going to, wasn't going to, if she decided she couldn't do something, like, you could not scream at her enough to make her do it.

[167] She just was not going to do it.

[168] But at the same time, he's going to manipulate and use any, like, thing that he can to shame people around him.

[169] Anything.

[170] Anything to get what he wants.

[171] I realized after a while, like, around this time and especially afterwards, I'm like, you really cared about this one thing.

[172] And then it didn't seem that important this other time.

[173] And then it really did this time.

[174] And I was like, oh, the common denominator is not, the specific thing.

[175] It's whatever emotion you're feeling in this moment and you're using this thing whenever you feel like it, whenever it works for you to give you a reason to be angry about something or to give you a reason to disapprove of something.

[176] And once I realized that, it was like, and then of course the resentment builds.

[177] But again, I think, well, I'm just really angry at my dad.

[178] And my dad's just a flawed person and, you know, not a good parent.

[179] That never like equated in my brain to be like, oh, he's a very dangerous person.

[180] I went out of it so bad, but there's nothing I can do.

[181] It was this sense of, like, if anyone knew, like, you know, this would be, you know, you'd be finished, but you knew no one was ever going to know, and you weren't ever going to tell anyone.

[182] Like, there would be people or kids who weren't so hashtag well behaved in the church.

[183] She was like, well, why don't you just sneak out?

[184] Like, if you've never sneaked out, you've never done this and blah, blah, blah.

[185] I just like, no, like my parents would catch me. And they were like, well, yeah, so what?

[186] And in my brain, I don't think I'd ever, like, fully understood it as a thought in my brain.

[187] But, like, looking back, I'm like, oh, no, I definitely thought they would hurt.

[188] Like, I definitely, like, it did not seem crazy for them to kill me. You know, like, if they got angry enough.

[189] If they got angry enough.

[190] Yeah, it was a, it wasn't.

[191] And we had grown up in a place where my father got in front of the entire church, told him that he, like, almost blinded my mother.

[192] and everyone applauded him for telling them.

[193] And so it felt like even if I did tell anyone, nothing would happen.

[194] And then as soon as I got home, like, I was screwed.

[195] And there was always a sense of like, I'm going to be out of here soon.

[196] But my family won't and my siblings won't.

[197] Like my brother was like, and, you know, he'd just turned one at that point.

[198] And I'm going to make it so much worse for them.

[199] You know, it was a sense of like if I just shut my mouth and get on with it, then I won't make them angry enough to hurt the other.

[200] kids.

[201] So, yeah, after my father hit me, like my mom, like, it was a case of, like, my mom would get really anger about how he treated us when it gave her ammunition that she needed in her fight against him.

[202] Like, we were in Sharnock, it was like, oh, well, you just have to forgive your father and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[203] And then, you know, in Hawaii, became, like, her weapon.

[204] I don't know when it happened.

[205] I think it was maybe after that or a couple months after that, But my mother, I guess, after a fight with my father, because I honestly don't think it was even after my father hit me, I think it was like an ammunition that she used against my father.

[206] She basically wrote a letter to the church and to the pastor and told him what was happening and about my dad's abuse and my dad's bad temper.

[207] The story goes that they told him, you either have to go to therapy and get help.

[208] or we're done with you and my father did not want to do therapy what was it like the day that your dad found that shit out i don't know i i we only heard about we only understood what was happening and like heard the full story years later i don't even know when it's happened my mother i don't even know when she did it but i know things got really bad and i'm wondering i think it's around the time, like, after I got hit, that things got really bad between them.

[209] Because I'm just thinking about how your dad responded for you vaguely saying something that might possibly be construed.

[210] So, like, thinking about her going to the church and him finding out about that?

[211] Well, and, well, because they confronted him.

[212] And, you know, again, I think it was a power player on her end because when I first heard out about it, I was proud of her and it meant a lot to me because it felt like, oh, you did.

[213] try to protect us you did try to stick up for us and then stuff kept happening and she kept not sticking up for us and then it felt more like oh no you just wanted to go home to scotland and you knew you could use this to ruin whatever dad had going on in hawaii she also knew that once she told everyone like he couldn't necessarily do anything because that would just prove like the allegations however here's my issue with that my mother told them what my father was doing and that he was abusive and that he was continuing to abuse us.

[214] They didn't tell anyone.

[215] They didn't go to police.

[216] We didn't even know this happened.

[217] They just came to my father and said either leave so we don't have to deal with you or get therapy.

[218] Wow.

[219] I have a real problem with that.

[220] After that, also when we left, they said that if I ever wanted to go to Bible college at their college, they'd give me a scholarship.

[221] And I never really knew why they gave that to me until later when I heard this story.

[222] And they were just like, oh, well, they just really like you or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[223] And I felt like, no, you knew I was in trouble and you were trying to give me a way out.

[224] Well, and it's like let's not make the church look bad.

[225] We don't want to own that this person was attached to us.

[226] Like they care more about their own reputation than the abuse of children.

[227] Yeah.

[228] Well, and it was, I don't know why they didn't call the police.

[229] Did you just not want to deal with us?

[230] Did you think that you would have to, like, take care of us?

[231] Like, it felt like the scholarship that I thought was given because people really liked me was more like blood money.

[232] Like, oh, we feel so bad that you went through this and we knew about it and we didn't do anything.

[233] Like, here's something nice to make up for it.

[234] For all you knew, I wouldn't have been alive to make it there.

[235] But you washed your hand.

[236] And it was interesting because around the time, we didn't know this had happened.

[237] And my father kept making comments about maybe going back to Scotland.

[238] And I thought it was so strange because we had been doing really well in Hawaii.

[239] And I honestly just thought we'd run out of money.

[240] And that's what he told me originally is that we were just running out of money.

[241] We don't have a choice.

[242] We have to go home.

[243] So I'm like, okay.

[244] Well, not okay.

[245] We were brokenhearted.

[246] And then after a while, he began telling the story.

[247] And in the story, he would reference how when they were young and just married back in South Africa, they would have this dream about being missionaries on a plane and that they would land in Scotland.

[248] And that's how they knew that God was telling them that they were going to be missionaries in Scotland.

[249] And then you would say, you know, and all these years later on, I began, you know, hearing God tell me that, you know, it was probably time to go back to Scotland.

[250] I didn't want to hear it.

[251] And one day I was surfing and he said it was like the panorama of Waikiki, which one is bullshit because we never went surfing at Waikiki.

[252] but he would say the panorama of Waikiki would be replaced by a picture of Inverness in Scotland and he'd be like, what?

[253] Why?

[254] No, I, what?

[255] He said, I kept having this vision.

[256] I kept having this vision.

[257] I realized that God was calling us back to Scotland.

[258] And I think part of me in my brain was wanted to believe that that was true because it was so heartbreaking that we were having to leave all these people and all these friends and this like lifeline it felt we there needed to be some bigger reason why we had to go and so i think i kind of like allowed myself to believe that but the reality is that story was made up way after he knew we were having to go back to scotland i have learned that my father is a master storyteller to the point where i think he believes his own stories and the way my parents talk about their lives it's like they have weaved this mythology or around themselves.

[259] Like, they talk, like, the way their lives are so fantastical, kind of like a Bible story.

[260] I think that's, like, for their benefit as much as it is for anyone else that they're telling it, too.

[261] Of, like, God calls everyone, but he is only able to be able to use the people that allow him to.

[262] And, you know, you have to be willing to be used by God.

[263] And not everyone else is.

[264] And you'll lose, like, your calling if you're not.

[265] And so, and the church, like, allowed him to make the.

[266] announcement like we got up in front of the little satellite church that we had and like announced that we're going back to Scotland and he was like and we're going to plant the church's name like Inverness Branch and it was like this big dramatic announcement of like this thing of like we're expanding like to Scotland and like I remember the whole church being like oh my god like and applauding the little satellite church that is and feeling like oh yeah triumphant and then being like but that's that's not that's not I know that's not why we had to leave we're We're not leaving because, you know, aside from anything that I found out later, you know, I was told we were leaving because we didn't have enough money.

[267] It felt like one of those things where it was like, we'll give you what you want, just go away.

[268] Yeah.

[269] And let's not make it look bad to anybody.

[270] Let's make it look good to everybody else.

[271] Yes.

[272] And I don't know how much of that was there doing, how much of that was like my father.

[273] And they just said, okay, you know, but knowing what happened and the people that I knew knew about it did not.

[274] not interact with us at all, did not mention it, like, if you knew a child was being abused and you were around that child a lot, like, by themselves or, like, you know, working with them on a weekly basis, I don't know.

[275] It was just, it felt like no one did anything.

[276] For the rest of the time, I mean, it was heartbreaking to have to leave and to feel like we were going, it felt, you know, like we were going back to what Chinook was going to be.

[277] We were going back to being completely under our parents control, going back to not having any connections, going back to dreary Scotland, where we were just stuck inside the house doing homeschooling.

[278] You know, on the other hand, I don't know if I would have survived leaving if they hadn't said, like, hey, you can have the scholarship because like from the moment we left, I was working to come back.

[279] And I grad, I mean, I got finished school when I was 16 and I, like, powered through it.

[280] And then I worked for a year to save up money to go back to college.

[281] Like the moment I left, it was just like, I have to get back.

[282] I have to.

[283] So I don't know if I would have been okay if they hadn't offered me that.

[284] So, I mean, regardless of the shitty reasons, they might have offered it to me. It did help me. So then your college, your Bible college that you went to was in Hawaii.

[285] So it was originally in Hawaii.

[286] And actually, after we moved to come back to Scotland, a open Bible.

[287] College in Oregon.

[288] No, just bear with me for a second.

[289] So in a weird way, Hawaii and Oregon are really connected.

[290] I don't know why.

[291] There was a ton of white people from Oregon that lived in Hawaii, and there was a ton of Hawaiian people that either went to school or were somehow connected in Oregon.

[292] So I guess the pastor of this church had attended a Open Bible College in Oregon.

[293] And this college was having a rough time, and they were actually going to have to close down.

[294] because they didn't have enough money to stay open.

[295] And so the pastor said, well, we'll buy it and we'll basically have an Oregon chapter of the Bible College that we have here in Hawaii.

[296] So that happened a year after I left to go back to Scotland.

[297] And so when I applied, they basically said, like, do you want to go to Hawaii or Oregon?

[298] And I was like, I don't know.

[299] I was completely torn because everything I remembered and loved was in home.

[300] Hawaii and that's where all the creative arts were and whatnot.

[301] However, in Oregon, it was like an actual college campus.

[302] The one in Hawaii was kind of like very cob hobble together.

[303] Like he had an actual dormitory.

[304] Like it was like a proper little college campus.

[305] They had multiple different degrees.

[306] And, you know, credit to my mother, she said, you know, I think dorm life is something that would be really good for you.

[307] Like I think it would be really good for like your development.

[308] And, um, I don't know if my father wanted me to go there.

[309] I don't honestly remember, but I remember just being, again, absolutely terrified because God had a very specific plan for my life.

[310] And if I wasn't listening to him and chose wrong, I was going to ruin the plan.

[311] And looking back now, I think I was going through massive amounts of anxiety and panic attacks, mostly due to going through an incredibly massive change in my life.

[312] And I think my autistic brain was definitely like, having issues with that, which makes sense to me. I mean, even moving just across town right now is giving me a lot of like extra stress and like my body just freaks out on me. So I know during this time I was losing my mind in that way.

[313] And I remember around that time, again, it was in another case of we had started going to another church in Scotland when we got back.

[314] And it was one in Inverness.

[315] And it was one we kind of had seen around growing up.

[316] And so this like our first time actually going to it.

[317] And it was another case of me and my siblings getting really connected with the people there.

[318] And my father decided, you know, it's time to pull away.

[319] We have to do your own thing.

[320] And like, we need to follow God and our God's plan for our lives.

[321] And, you know, whatever they're doing is what they're doing.

[322] But during that time, we had made friends with like the youth group, which the youth group was also kind of the college groups, which looking back, it was a very odd mix of 12 -year -olds and all.

[323] the way up to like 30 -year -olds all hanging out together, but we had a grand old time.

[324] And there was a group of ladies who had room together in college, and I think they went on to like one of them bought a house, and then they all lived together and like paid rent and whatnot.

[325] And so a lot of the events ended up at their house.

[326] And this group was very like close -knit, and we'd all like go grab lunch after church.

[327] And we're back in Inverness now, which is like a city, but you can walk around it in two hours, which should give you an idea of how small it is.

[328] So we, in a weird way, once we moved to Inverness, had a lot more freedom because we didn't need to rely on my father to drive us places.

[329] We could walk most places.

[330] So that allowed us to say, like, hey, we're running off with our friends and he didn't necessarily have a good reason to tell us not to.

[331] And so we kind of got out a little bit more because of that.

[332] And these friends, I think, especially the older ladies, definitely noticed how controlling they were.

[333] And so began kind of slowly putting pressure on my father every now and then to let us hang out longer with them.

[334] Or like, you know, they'd say, oh, you know, we're going to watch a movie.

[335] I'd be like, well, we didn't get permission for that.

[336] And so they'd be like, okay.

[337] And they would call up our dad and get permission for us, which we were way too scared to do that.

[338] But they did it anyway, which was awesome.

[339] And that was very much where I think I really began to find my own identity outside of my family.

[340] And as awkward as I had been in Hawaii, my brain has.

[341] has this weird thing of like not knowing how to interact with people until I do it's kind of like if you're playing a video game and you only get certain like skills by unlocking levels like oh you've got to this level now you've unlocked the skill of jumping like I remember where I was it took me like one and a half years in Hawaii to understand how to interject myself into a conversation and join in a conversation like I remember where I was and once I learned how to Once it clicked in my brain, I've always been able to do it.

[342] So now I'm actually really good at meeting new people.

[343] I'm very good at starting conversation.

[344] But I went from not being able to do it.

[345] Like, it took me like a year and a half to try and figure it out.

[346] And then I did.

[347] And I don't even, it wasn't even like a conscious thing.

[348] It was just all of a sudden, like, I knew what to do.

[349] It felt like a very physical thing, like a skill.

[350] Like I had, I had learned how to throw the ball correctly.

[351] It was like all of a sudden, like I figured out the muscle.

[352] soul memory and it clicked and then I kept in that.

[353] Now put me into a situation where I need to have like a continual conversation with a friend and like keep them like engaged in a daily basis.

[354] That didn't happen for me until Inverness and that took like another year and a half to like figure that out.

[355] It was really interesting.

[356] And you were about 16 you said.

[357] Yeah.

[358] Yeah.

[359] I was like 15 and a half when we got back.

[360] And then when I turned 16, I got a lot more freedom.

[361] I don't know why, but 16 was like a good age for me to like, I was labeled to have my own phone, which meant I could text people.

[362] So I got a little bit more freedom in that way.

[363] And it was one of those things where it was like, everything would be great, everything would be great.

[364] And then like my father would just make a comment.

[365] And he would suddenly realize like, ooh, you're not okay with this.

[366] Like he'd be slowly just watching you, watching you and just like waiting for like a place where he could like interject or be like, find some way to be mad at you for what you were doing.

[367] Like knock you down a peg.

[368] Yeah.

[369] But again, we were also surrounded by a lot of people that I think were a good barrier, at least for me where I was in that stage of life.

[370] And once I graduated, that became even more because I was working full time.

[371] And so I was working part time in the coffee shop at the church that we were a part of.

[372] And then I was also working part time in a salon, which was.

[373] owned by, managed by a lady who was also from that church.

[374] So I was around of a lot of different people that I trusted and thought of as good people and thought of as trustworthy people.

[375] And I was around them for an extended amount of time.

[376] And so I started getting to expose to a lot a lot more things like non -Christian music and their senses of humor and interacting with people who were secure enough in themselves that I could just be myself and they wouldn't attack me for an imagined slight against them.

[377] And I was truly, truly very happy there.

[378] Like it was one of the first times in my life where I was like, oh, I'm looking forward to go to work.

[379] I'd had some part -time jobs before this and they were awful.

[380] But as focused as I was on getting to Hawaii or get into Oregon at that point, I was one of the first times where I was truly happy where I was in that moment.

[381] People liked me. It was the first time in my life where I was around people enough to understand that they actually really liked me for who I was.

[382] And I wasn't maybe this horrible person that I had been made out to be or that I felt like because of the way my parents treated me. Did it also help you to sort of see what healthy interactions and relationships looked like?

[383] Yes.

[384] Yes.

[385] To an extent.

[386] I mean, again, I didn't really understand that I wasn't connecting with people the way that other people connect with people at the time.

[387] So, you know, even with my closest friends, the subject of my parents or family just never even came up.

[388] Like, it never even occurred to me to talk about that.

[389] Like, it never occurred to me to talk about.

[390] I was very much of, like, you can tell me anything.

[391] I'll be here to support you, blah, blah, blah.

[392] It never, like, I was the most supportive friend, but you, like, you would never have been able to help me. Like, you would never been able to support me. And not even because, like, I was keeping it from you.

[393] It just didn't even occur to me to ask before that.

[394] I'm Dan Taberski.

[395] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school.

[396] in Leroy, New York.

[397] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[398] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[399] She's like, I can't.

[400] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[401] It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[402] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[403] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[404] Well, you were holding something back.

[405] Intentionally.

[406] Yeah, yeah.

[407] No, it's hysteria.

[408] It's all in your head.

[409] It's not physical.

[410] Oh my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[411] Is this the largest mass hysteria?

[412] since the Witches of Salem?

[413] Or is it something else entirely?

[414] Something's wrong here.

[415] Something's not right.

[416] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[417] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[418] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[419] You can binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[420] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[421] I'm Sachi Cole.

[422] And I'm Sarah Haggy.

[423] And we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once the facade falls away.

[424] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit followed by Larry King, and no real product to push.

[425] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[426] To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Judice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[427] Follow Scamfluencers on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[428] You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad -free right now on Wondry plus.

[429] So I remember at one of these kind of youth group slash college group get -togethers, I was talking to a friend in the kitchen.

[430] He was an older guy.

[431] And I was talking about how stressed out I was about the move and about which school I should go to and what choice to make.

[432] And he looked at me and he said, it doesn't matter what choice you make.

[433] I looked at him like it was crazy.

[434] He was like, God has a plan.

[435] He said, no, he doesn't.

[436] He said, no, he doesn't.

[437] I'm like, what?

[438] He said, what?

[439] He's like, no, God doesn't have a plan.

[440] I was like, what do you mean?

[441] God has a plan for my life.

[442] He's like, no, he doesn't.

[443] If God has a plan for your life, he can work with whatever comes his way.

[444] And like, that was the first time I had heard someone say that like, if God truly is this omnipotent person that he's supposed to be, you can do what you believe is right.

[445] And if it's not, he'll take care of the rest.

[446] As opposed to you're an absolutely horrible human being and you have to do what God's plan is.

[447] Otherwise you're inevitably going to destroy your life.

[448] And I thought he was crazy.

[449] And it was one of those things where I think it, like I had a small like spark of hope blossom and instantly was like terrified because of that.

[450] Because if I wanted to believe in something, it meant that it definitely wasn't true because I was just trying to get out of whatever like responsive or whatever like it was basically like the devil was getting me excited because it was the wrong thing.

[451] And that like, you know, the right thing was always hard.

[452] The right thing was always going to like take sacrifice or take like trust or it was it wasn't.

[453] to think that something could be as easy as that or something that could be as simple as like, if I think it's a good idea, then it probably is, was like, that was a sign that it was definitely wrong.

[454] But, you know, if it felt good, it's probably terrible.

[455] Right.

[456] If you wanted something, if you wanted to do something, like if it, if someone said something that relieved the stress or the worry off your shoulders, it was wrong.

[457] And you only wanted it because it was wrong.

[458] Like, it was the sinful part of you, like, wanting that.

[459] I was very aware of the concept of like delayed gratification as a child.

[460] It was very much how, I mean, that's how my parents, you know, ran a lot of times.

[461] You know, the good things we got were very much like, you do this and do this.

[462] And then you wait and you can get a little bit of this.

[463] I mean, my parents were very judgmental, but they would also praise us for fitting into their mold.

[464] So you were constantly terrified of fitting in and desperate to be like set apart by your parents.

[465] So that made it when anyone said anything different, it was like, well, that's what the world thinks, you know.

[466] You're supposed to be different.

[467] People are not supposed to agree with you.

[468] People are supposed to think you're weird.

[469] People are supposed to think there's something wrong with you.

[470] People are supposed to be freaked out by your family dynamic because if they're not, you're not doing it right.

[471] And when you train your family to have that idea, anytime anyone has any criticism, it fits into that.

[472] You've literally prepared them for anything someone might say to them to try and get them to understand how crazy their lives are.

[473] There was no way in the middle of it that I was going to be able to see anything.

[474] Yeah.

[475] When I went through my own struggle with my sexuality, I didn't come out to my father, but I was making comments about how can it be wrong?

[476] You're saying that homosexuality is wrong and divorce is wrong.

[477] And I know a couple that's been together for 40 years and they haven't gotten divorced when most Christian people get divorced.

[478] and he said, well, you can't sympathize with them.

[479] I was like, what?

[480] He was like, you can't sympathize with them.

[481] If you sympathize with them, it's going to make you want to start compromising.

[482] I'm like, oh, okay, so I'm not supposed to see them as human beings with the same, like, emotions and everything that we go through.

[483] Cool.

[484] Which, you know, there was my poor little bisexual self being like, all right, well, we're never going to talk to you about this.

[485] But as I started to unpack, like, all the crap that my parents had taught me and all the control and this idea of, like, God has this plan and you're going to screw up your life if you don't, you know, adhere to it.

[486] And as I began to reject that, I remembered this guy that told me this.

[487] I was like, dude, you were right the whole time.

[488] And I never knew.

[489] But you told me that.

[490] And it stuck in my head enough.

[491] And it bothered me enough for me to remember that in this moment and help me break free more of my parents.

[492] And I never got to thank him for that.

[493] But like that means a lot to me. And I like, that's like a pivotal point in my life.

[494] and I think back to that all the time.

[495] Even back then, like, you were trying to help me think outside the box and think differently.

[496] And I couldn't hear it at the time, but it affected me enough to, like, make me question in the future.

[497] So I have a lot of love for that guy.

[498] He definitely helped help save my life, I feel like.

[499] It's amazing, though, and it speaks to sometimes people may even challenge you when you're having those deep conversations and they may even, like, fight you on things, but some of the messaging can sink in and maybe it may make.

[500] sense later on.

[501] Yeah.

[502] And so even if even if you have something to share with somebody that you feel like could benefit them and they may like resist it at first or or not understand it, like it can have an effect later as well.

[503] Yeah.

[504] Yeah.

[505] Well, and I, I know they didn't know what was happening, but I think they definitely got weird vibes.

[506] And I think that whole group of friends, you know, I'm very thankful for them.

[507] Like, even when I was scared as a teenager, like they would call my father to like have us hang out with them.

[508] It was like the sense of like, no, We want you here.

[509] And it's good for you to be here.

[510] We're going to go stand up to your father when you can to make sure that you're here.

[511] And I think it was the first time that, like, I think I was around people enough to feel like they knew me and, like, really liked me for me and wanted to be around me. Next time.

[512] She had seen this, like, evil, dark spirit that had apparently been in my father's family for generations.

[513] It was a spirit of, like, murder and a spirit of suicide.

[514] side.

[515] But things just felt weird and it felt so tense.

[516] And literally, day before me and my husband leave to go back to America, my mom takes me aside into the backyard.

[517] And I can tell she's really upset.

[518] And she starts being very emotional.

[519] I'm like, what is going on?

[520] Something Was Wrong is produced and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese.

[521] Music on this episode from Gladrags.

[522] Check out their album, Wonder Under.

[523] If you'd like to help support the growth of something was wrong, you can help by leaving a positive review.

[524] sharing the podcast with your family, friends, and followers, and support at patreon .com slash something was wrong.

[525] Something Was Wrong now has a free virtual survivor support forum at something was wrong .com.

[526] You can remain as anonymous as you need.

[527] Thank you so much for listening.

[528] If you like Something Was Wrong, you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[529] Prime members can listen ad -free on Amazon music.

[530] Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery .com slash survey.

[531] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[532] She had been under the influence that she left him there.

[533] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reid was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[534] It was alleged that after an innocent, night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[535] What happens next?

[536] Depends on who you ask.

[537] Was it a crime of passion?

[538] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[539] This was clearly an intentional act.

[540] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[541] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[542] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[543] Everyone had an opinion.

[544] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[545] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[546] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[547] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondry Plus.

[548] Join Wondery Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcast, or Spotify.