David Lieberman

[0] Welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] Experts on expert.

[2] I'm Dax Shepard.

[3] I'm joined by Monica Padman.

[4] That's me. Yes, welcome.

[5] Welcome.

[6] I'm detecting your lies already.

[7] You're not here.

[8] Oh, my God.

[9] What am I lying about right now?

[10] I'm thinking about something that's a lie.

[11] Okay.

[12] You're thinking currently about a lie.

[13] You don't have a headache.

[14] That's close.

[15] Is it?

[16] It was, I don't want sugarfish.

[17] Okay.

[18] But it was still an I don't.

[19] Yeah.

[20] Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[21] Okay, great.

[22] So it didn't really work, but it worked.

[23] The reason we're on high alert for deception and lies is because our guest today, David J. Lieberman, is a psychotherapist and bestselling author who specializes in the fields of human behavior and interpersonal relationships.

[24] He has trained personnel in the U .S. military, the FBI, the CIA, and the NSA.

[25] In his current book that he's here to talk about is Mind Reader, the new science of deciphering what people, really think what they really want and who they really are juicy okay tell people about your shirt i think the beginning of this episode's potentially confusing because what's happening physically in the room is i've gotten upstairs i was in a big big hurry and it was pointed out to me on my walk up by my daughter that my shirt was inside out and then i walked in and you immediately pointed that out so i was like i got to get the shirt right side whatever out and so i took my shirt off immediately right after I met him and was in the process of getting it corrected.

[26] In front of it.

[27] I mean, you just like took off your shirt right in front of him.

[28] Yeah.

[29] I felt like it was okay.

[30] I didn't change my underwear in front of him.

[31] It wasn't that sexual.

[32] Yeah.

[33] If he had caught me at the beach, he would have seen the same show.

[34] Yeah.

[35] So that's what's happening at the top of this.

[36] Please enjoy David J. Lieberman.

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[39] or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[40] He's an object to explain.

[41] He's an option to tell you that.

[42] I was just about to tell you that.

[43] But also then I didn't know if I should just be lucky.

[44] Luckily for you.

[45] I could see how, you know, someone might enjoy it.

[46] Luckily for you, usually it's my pants there is.

[47] Monica, what if this was all a ruse?

[48] you did on purpose so that you could take off your shirt.

[49] I kind of thought that.

[50] Convey to him that I'm absent -minded and bumbling as part of my ploy to deceive him.

[51] Oh, I thought you meant just so you could take your shirt off.

[52] It was worse inside out on purpose.

[53] No, because David's book is Mind Reader.

[54] That was very clever of you.

[55] Well, look it.

[56] It wasn't calculated, but it also is abnormal for what I do.

[57] So I could sell it as it was a whole ploy to deceive you.

[58] retroactively.

[59] Well, just, good luck with that.

[60] When you first, when you meet a man, he's spilling coffee as he walks in.

[61] And then he shakes your hand and he pulls his shirt off because it's inside out and then puts it on correctly.

[62] There's a lot of info there, right?

[63] If that was my consistent behavior, what would you glean from that?

[64] You might have a couple of things to work through.

[65] Sure, sure.

[66] You know, time management.

[67] Time management.

[68] For starters.

[69] But also, you know, it shows a degree of confidence.

[70] People who are not confident are going to want to present.

[71] the most polished professional image.

[72] The portrait they present is not so much a disguise as it is, really a self -portrait because how you choose to present yourself really reveals what it is that you may be insecure about or how you want other people to see you.

[73] So you obviously have no compunction or reservation or hesitation about showing that more charismatic, confident, freewheeling, flawed, messy side.

[74] But there's an incredible authenticity to that.

[75] You may be different things, fake is not one of them.

[76] Oh, okay.

[77] I think that's accurate.

[78] I dig that.

[79] That was very quick.

[80] That was a thin slice because we've known each other for 45 seconds.

[81] I already nailed you.

[82] But I remember learning this in a communications class.

[83] In fact, a lot of this stuff in your book, it triggered my memory of communications, the interpersonal versus the presenting self.

[84] So what you were talking about, the facade is so often people's presenting self is incongruous with their internal self.

[85] That's right.

[86] You've got the real genuine self, say self -esteem.

[87] The degree to which a person doesn't like themselves, it's like a C -So, the ego now is going to engage to compensate for feelings of guilt, inferiority, shame, and security, and so on.

[88] So the bigger the ego, the more the mask, the more egocentric, obviously, are going to become, and the less healthy they are.

[89] People often conflate the two and they say, you have to have, you know, a big ego.

[90] They don't really understand the psychology here.

[91] Big ego means that you don't like yourself.

[92] You're compensating.

[93] A person who genuinely likes themselves has humility.

[94] The opposite of humility is arrogance.

[95] And then, And that's what the ego does.

[96] It puts on this arrogance facade in order to show the world what the person is not, but how they want it desperately to be seen.

[97] There's a documentary currently on HBO about this anarchist movement in Acapulco.

[98] It's fascinating on a lot of levels.

[99] But there's also a conference that started there.

[100] And then all these people who go to the conference end up staying and it becomes this kind of anarchist community within Acapulco.

[101] And then some guy is attracted, as you would imagine, to this movement who was ex -military.

[102] And they're detailing him.

[103] And they're showing.

[104] images from his Facebook and it was so crystal clear to me every single photo he's holding a machine gun he's hitting a punching bag mind you poorly he can't box but he is trying to imbued on everyone that he can box and he's very agro and I just remembered I've gone twice to Afghanistan on USO tours and got to hang out with the actual special forces guys those dudes are the most humble no one's bragging no one's being macho that's everyone there is a stone cold operator.

[105] And then so there's zero need.

[106] They know in their heart they are.

[107] That's right.

[108] The confident person doesn't need to tell the world how confident they are.

[109] Yeah.

[110] Right?

[111] It's the insecure person that has to sell themselves because they're selling you and they're telling themselves a story.

[112] And the more you believe it, the more they can believe it themselves.

[113] While I was watching, I had this fantasy of some macro study where they charted and plotted bravado on the actual ranks within the military because that's such a good metric, right?

[114] Like an entry -level person through boot camp, someone that's in the Marines, then you would have someone that's, you know, because there's an echelon.

[115] And it would be interesting if you could detail and make metrics out of bravado and just chart it against that.

[116] And then maybe present it to young men and go, just so you know, when you display this, you're saying the opposite.

[117] That's right.

[118] And so interesting in reading somebody, we know that the hard or a person tries to sell you of something, most likely belies a insecurity.

[119] And egocentricity takes many forms.

[120] It's not just about being the loud, obnoxious, arrogant person, an egocentric person is going to give themselves away in a lot of subtle ways.

[121] And if you pay attention to these cues, it becomes patently obvious.

[122] Who has confidence, who doesn't, who really likes themselves, obviously very effective and valuable if you're dating or you're hiring somebody.

[123] How often does it work, though?

[124] Here's the thing.

[125] We like people who are confidence.

[126] A confidence that emanates from an authenticity, that's what we connect with.

[127] You've got sort of too soft.

[128] But when a person is egocentric, the ego -centric, the ego literally blocks this.

[129] You have to look at somebody and it's like they come across with such provodal, such confidence.

[130] I mean, we're in L .A., so ground zero.

[131] But there's no connection.

[132] You don't really like the person.

[133] Real charisma comes from helping people to see their own greatness, not yours.

[134] It comes from allowing a connection.

[135] And if I'm so self -absorbed, if I'm consumed with myself, my own wants, my needs, my ideology, my philosophies, there is no connection.

[136] So you may think I'm great, but you want nothing to do with me. You can also almost, and Rob, I don't know what happened to my own level, but it seems to me just a notch lower than it normally is.

[137] You can distill it ultimately just straight down to safety.

[138] So, I'm a little lower.

[139] Sorry, we don't, okay, I have my shirt on backwards and I'm adjusting our mics, which you don't have to do normal.

[140] Oh, good job.

[141] Did you text Rob before I hand?

[142] That's with my mic.

[143] I've been planning this for a month.

[144] Safety for me is what it's all about.

[145] So when I see someone that's projecting mass bravado, what I detect is, okay, they're pretty insecure.

[146] And now anything's on the table because to maintain the bravado and the image, bad calculated moves are on the horizon.

[147] I think that's what we primitively take on that we don't even know we're taking on.

[148] It's just like, oh, this person's dangerous because they're selling a story that's not authentic and they'll try anything to support it.

[149] That's right.

[150] In much the same way that we seek to protect our physical selves, we protect our emotional selves.

[151] And a person who is coming across in that way, we cannot let our guard down until we feel safe.

[152] I mean, that much makes sense.

[153] Egosentricity characterizes somebody who is emotionally unwell.

[154] Just in broad strokes, it's like this.

[155] Perspective is synonymous with sanity.

[156] My ability to see, accept, and respond to my world.

[157] That's what it means to be sane.

[158] It's the ego that blocks perspective.

[159] The more egocentric a person is, the more they consume with themselves, you can't see.

[160] I can't look at you because I'm busy judging, condemning, labeling, categorizing, because my ego needs to feel safe.

[161] So the more boxes I can put you into, the safer I feel.

[162] The paradox, or the irony really, is that I am not seeing.

[163] I'm becoming less healthy because genuine observation without judgment, that allows for us to see, accept, and respond to our world.

[164] That's what it means to have perspective.

[165] So the more judgmental a person is, the more egocentric they are, the more they need to label, to characterize, the more they can't be wrong.

[166] We all know people like this.

[167] They dig their hills, and you could show them in a dictionary, and they'll say the dictionary is wrong.

[168] They're a delight to play games with.

[169] We've had world leaders like this.

[170] That's right.

[171] Because any sign that they are at.

[172] not perfect scares them.

[173] Well, and then sadly, and here's where I have empathy, really means no one will love them.

[174] It's so hard to like that person, but truly, they need it the most.

[175] That's right.

[176] The people who make it hardest to love sometimes need it the most.

[177] Yeah.

[178] Oh, that's brutal.

[179] Yeah.

[180] They're the hardest.

[181] I always bring up the example of the dude in the jacked up truck with the ball sack hanging off the back.

[182] And he's yelling at someone out the window and he's vaping.

[183] And I go, that guy wants love so much.

[184] I tell that to my kids, in a different version, by the way, all the time.

[185] They all know.

[186] They say someone didn't get enough attention.

[187] when they were growing up.

[188] See, if you've got that type of truck or that type of a thing, there's nothing innately wrong with it.

[189] As long as it's an authenticity that this is what I like rather than this is what you will like me for.

[190] Yes.

[191] The difference is important.

[192] Is it good to try to give those people love, give those people attention, or distance and boundaries and I can't?

[193] Of course we should empathize.

[194] And by the way, empathy is not sympathy.

[195] Empathy is your pain is my pain.

[196] Sympathy is stinks to be you.

[197] I'm going to go back to my Frosted Flakes and newspaper.

[198] and try and get you out of my head.

[199] Now, in order to really empathize with somebody, it requires us to move our own selves out of the way.

[200] If I'm too consume with me, I can't empathize with you, I can't connect with you, I can't feel your pain when I'm absorbed to my own, which is why the egocentric person is a very hard, is that caviar?

[201] I wish.

[202] Oh, it's, uh, tobacco.

[203] Oh, yeah, right.

[204] Who knows, though?

[205] I don't know if there's any long -term studies on caviar consumption.

[206] This is authenticity right here.

[207] This is chewing tobacco.

[208] Of all the things.

[209] Yeah.

[210] Okay.

[211] You have a yama.

[212] John.

[213] I'm a hillbilly.

[214] This is to be the most abstract thing.

[215] For me, everyone I grew up with does this.

[216] Probably no one in your childhood circle was doing this.

[217] I think in most childhood circles, people were not in an interview chewing on tobacco.

[218] You don't have a ton of firsthand experience watching a dude load up his lip with tobacco.

[219] Is that fair to say?

[220] Who does?

[221] Back to the USO tour.

[222] Half the GIs are dripping.

[223] In truth, the only other person that did this was Joan Rivers.

[224] Oh, okay.

[225] Well, by the way, if there were anyone I would, I would believe it would be her.

[226] Did her show about 25 years ago, obviously, before she, I know my people say that.

[227] Of course, it's before she died.

[228] She was fantastic, by the way.

[229] Gosh, when she lets loose, she's up there with Gilbert Godfrey.

[230] You're only bringing up people who passed.

[231] Yeah.

[232] Well, earmark this.

[233] We'll try to get someone you love that's still alive.

[234] Just to round out, Monica's a very good question.

[235] In order to have empathy, of course, you've got to move out of your own stuff, which makes it harder for that person, which is why these relationships seem very one -sided.

[236] It's like, I give and give and give to this guy.

[237] It's not that they're not motivated, they're not capable.

[238] So, of course, you want to give to them.

[239] At the same time, boundaries are necessary to preserve our emotional health.

[240] If there's one takeaway from here, other than to buy mind reader, it is.

[241] Boundaries are not meant to keep people out.

[242] They are meant to define our personal sense of space, responsibility, and obligation.

[243] The healthiest relationships require boundaries, right?

[244] And who would have a bathroom without a bathroom door, for example?

[245] Us.

[246] Yes, I know.

[247] My gosh.

[248] We're a mess.

[249] God, there's layers here.

[250] I know.

[251] What one's interesting in you the most at this moment?

[252] It's still the tobacco, right?

[253] Is it making you nauseous?

[254] Because I could switch to another nicotine form.

[255] At least in the Western movies, there's a spittoon.

[256] Yeah, yeah.

[257] Where is yours?

[258] That's his.

[259] Oh.

[260] But I've, yeah, so that's bumming you out.

[261] What I'm trying to do as an act of courtesy is at least it's in a non -see -thru container.

[262] Yeah, I appreciate that.

[263] You know what I'm saying?

[264] Like, you would never have to observe the, yeah, yeah, the tobacco.

[265] You're a classy guy.

[266] You wouldn't be spitting into something translucent.

[267] Okay, so first and foremost, the book is called Mind Reader, The New Science of Deciphering What People Really Think, What They Really Want, and Who They Really Are.

[268] And you're a doctor.

[269] I'd love to know what your educational background is that brought you to this specialty.

[270] In Broad Strokes, I've always been interested, motivated to help people to understand people.

[271] We all have our innate drives, things that we just grew up fascinated by.

[272] Mine is just people.

[273] I just always been fascinated by people.

[274] and I went to school for psychology, it wasn't even so much to do therapy, although I do that and I love the value of the one -on -one and helping people in the relationships.

[275] But really what shifted it for me was that I found that no matter how much people worked on themselves, no matter how many self -help books that they read, no many podcasts they listened to, if there were other people out there who were taking advantage of them, manipulating them, lying to them, cheating on them, it's very hard to move forward in life.

[276] Trust, as you well know, is essential to every relationship.

[277] They trust ourselves, the trust ourselves, the trust others.

[278] So regardless of our childhood, our experiences, trauma, calamities, tragedies, whatever it is, if I'm moving today in a world where I cannot trust the people around me, I'm not going to be able to optimize my potential.

[279] So I shifted in my writing.

[280] I began working with law enforcement in terms of interview, interrogation, and reading people.

[281] You talk to NSA, you talk to CIA, you talk to military branches.

[282] How does an organization like that decide, well, this is a person I'm going to trust.

[283] Go back about 25 years ago.

[284] I had written one book already, and I'd been developing these techniques on reading people, and I understand you're more sophisticated than body languages, by the way, just doesn't work, period.

[285] You give the example.

[286] Okay, crossed arms.

[287] That's an axiom we use.

[288] That person shut off.

[289] What if it's cold in the room?

[290] What if there's no arms on the chairs?

[291] There you go.

[292] So look, if you're dealing with an unsophisticated liar, okay, fine.

[293] He's scratching his nose, crossing his arms looks away.

[294] Fair enough.

[295] But it's not going to work with the really bad guys.

[296] You need something more sophisticated.

[297] This is what I hate about most self -help books, about most parenting books, most everything that is a binary proposition, which is you have children.

[298] How fucking different are they?

[299] And how much did you have to change how you raised each one of them?

[300] So the notion that people cross their arms, okay, well, now you're saying a statement about all people.

[301] And I just have two of them in my house and they're opposites.

[302] So you couldn't make one statement that would hold true for both of them other than they need to eat.

[303] That's right.

[304] So yeah, just too broad, in my opinion.

[305] It is.

[306] There are plenty of books.

[307] on body language, and why it's become a staple, by the way, is because it's very easy.

[308] You can explain it to somebody, but of course, we're talking about it.

[309] The bad guys already know this.

[310] If I want to sell you something that's not good for you, I'm not going to cross my arms.

[311] I'm going to look you in the eye.

[312] I naturally will cross my arms.

[313] They're too long.

[314] I'm tall, whatever the case is.

[315] And I literally go, don't cross them because you're an open person.

[316] I'm actually responding to exactly as you say.

[317] That's right.

[318] I don't want to come across as a close person.

[319] And then I also think, oh, maybe I am reverse engineering.

[320] Maybe this does open me up in some weird way.

[321] It does because there's a whole field called embodied cognition, which is where body language comes in, and there is some degree of efficacy.

[322] That's right.

[323] And the studies show, by the way, if you've got an expansive pose, not only does it reflect somebody who may be more relaxed than calm, but it can also make you feel more relaxed than calm.

[324] And you're sending a message your brain, I must be confident.

[325] In communications, body language does play a role in so far as if you're speaking with somebody who you want to have a better relationship with, crossing your arms is not going to be productive because it sends that message on being standoffish.

[326] I'm not that interested.

[327] And to ourselves, it sort of can make us feel less open to the experience.

[328] Right.

[329] So I put together a number of techniques and strategies.

[330] And again, we're going back 25 years ago.

[331] So there's no internet.

[332] I pick up the phone.

[333] I call the CIA.

[334] Why not?

[335] That one, well, uh -huh.

[336] Click.

[337] Call back again.

[338] It's like, Mr. Lieberman, if you call another time, you're going to be put on a list.

[339] I didn't know what that list was.

[340] I didn't know why me put on any list.

[341] So fast forward a couple of years and I write this book on lie detector called Never Be Lied to Again.

[342] It was the first book that showed for the layperson how to tell if somebody's lying without relying on body language and a lot of the things that law enforcement was using.

[343] I get a call from the director of the behavioral science unit of the FBI.

[344] This is over the summer.

[345] He said, we're familiar with your work.

[346] We'd like you to come down and to do a training and see how it goes.

[347] I was busy writing on the book.

[348] I was teaching.

[349] I was just busy with a lot of stuff.

[350] And I wasn't thinking clearly in fairness because I said no. I say no. And he says as follows.

[351] He says, Dr. Lieberman, your country needs you.

[352] Oh, wow.

[353] And I said, yeah.

[354] I said, you guys really say that?

[355] Right.

[356] I've seen it in movies.

[357] Yeah.

[358] I said, like, 98.

[359] Yeah.

[360] And then I caught myself.

[361] I said, no, of course.

[362] And that began a career and working with different branches, not just in federal, but also at state level.

[363] And as you had success or people liked about it, they told other people they were hanging with it.

[364] Langley and this and that, and it just, word of mouthy kind of, where NSA and CIA?

[365] Word of mouth and also being good.

[366] In other words, if you've got somebody who went through the training and now they're that much more effective, you know, I want some of that, you know, whatever that is.

[367] Of course.

[368] And the best part about it is that even though the development of the techniques obviously took decades, applying them, using them can be done by an eighth grader.

[369] They're sophisticated in terms of the psychology, but they're really just darn easy to use, which what makes them so accessible to everybody and why you can write it in a book, So I can't imagine you have an interest in this for no other reason than you have an interest in it.

[370] I have to imagine in your childhood someone was either very deceptive around you or you didn't feel like you were being told the truth or you moved through a world where you felt deceived.

[371] I would go into what you're into.

[372] But I have had a very chaotic, traumatic childhood with lots of stepdad's.

[373] I am hyper aware of everyone's intention and reading people and making sure I feel safe by knowing where they're coming from.

[374] I've yet to meet someone that's like me that didn't have some similar background.

[375] Yeah, I'm shaking my head in lots of directions as you're speaking because I never would have thought that until probably, and I like to think of myself as a fairly introspective guy, probably about five, six years ago, somebody said, have you ever looked at the titles of your books?

[376] Never be lied to again, get anyone to do anything.

[377] For somebody who considers themselves an expert on reading people, my lack of introspection was startling.

[378] No, my childhood was a fairly typical, but I always tell this to parents, you know, they've got a couple different kids.

[379] I've done the same thing with all the kids.

[380] Why is it?

[381] One does this and one turns out this way?

[382] Because they're not cookie cutter.

[383] So children, as adults, we have different sensitivities, vulnerabilities, and needs.

[384] So you can grow up in the same house with your experiences.

[385] And one will be like a weeble -wobble.

[386] Remember those?

[387] Bounce back up.

[388] Others will digest it.

[389] But those experiences, they've shaped who you are.

[390] You would not be the person you are, the interview you are, the talent you are.

[391] You weren't spending your time trying to understand people.

[392] And by the way, great outcome, but not a great kernel of why.

[393] Do you have an older brother or sister?

[394] Yeah.

[395] What's the age difference?

[396] So he actually died about a year ago due to COVID.

[397] Okay.

[398] But he was three and a half years older.

[399] I'm sorry to hear that.

[400] Thank you.

[401] So I have a younger kid.

[402] I was a younger sibling.

[403] I hated being left out, not getting what everyone was getting.

[404] I wanted to prove I was as old as him at all times.

[405] Yeah, that's typical.

[406] heavy, right?

[407] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[408] And so I was sprinting to be in on everything.

[409] Sure.

[410] And you still are.

[411] Yes, of course.

[412] Yeah, you just keep moving up the ladder of what other older brother now fills that role.

[413] Right.

[414] I mean, if you want to get sort of spiritual for a moment, we're all here for a reason.

[415] There are different experiences we're going to have in our lives that are needed for our good and for our growth.

[416] Let me ask you this question, by the before we get to the why.

[417] Would you trade aspects of your childhood if you weren't the person you were today, would you trade what you've learned even as painful and as devastating traumatic as it was, would you say, I'll pass, or would you take it?

[418] Yeah, I would take all of it.

[419] I'm like at peace with my trauma.

[420] I'm grateful for my trauma.

[421] That's just there.

[422] You can appreciate that not only are you grateful, but we could say then you might even choose it.

[423] Your own sensitivity and empathy allowed for you to absorb more of the pain growing up than somebody else, maybe your older sibling, but at the same time, what allows you to utilize it in a certain way.

[424] The thing your book addresses and the thing that I'm consumed with is I feel best when I know why somebody would want to study this.

[425] I feel like I have the whole picture.

[426] There would be an area of this, I think, as we get deep in the weeds in it, where I'll have a philosophical question for you.

[427] Maybe we'll differ on it, which is I often assess people's agenda and it doesn't bother me. I can live with their agenda.

[428] I can live with what they want.

[429] I can live with these things.

[430] They're not going to actually impact me. I see them.

[431] It's fine.

[432] But I need to know what it is.

[433] I actually can feel safe as long as I know what it is.

[434] When I can't feel safe as if I don't know what it is.

[435] That's when I think I'd get blindsided.

[436] So I would suggest you are letting your ego dictate your thinking.

[437] You mentioned the 12 steps.

[438] They all have a single threat in common.

[439] Get rid of the ego.

[440] Get rid of the ego.

[441] They all have that common threat of getting rid of the ego so the authenticity comes through.

[442] So your ego is telling you, unless I know your story, unless I know who you are, what you are, I can't.

[443] can't feel safe.

[444] That's a lie.

[445] The truth is, you don't need to know somebody else's who they are, where they are, why they are, in order for you to be safe.

[446] You're already safe.

[447] Yes, I agree with you, but now we're going to differentiate between my intellectual mind and my emotional state and my arousal state.

[448] I can intellectually know exactly what you're saying.

[449] I'm six to, I'm strong, I'm financially secure.

[450] I'm not really vulnerable to a lot.

[451] In that I'm safe.

[452] I don't need to know that to be safe.

[453] Yes, I'm safe.

[454] I can protect myself.

[455] I can ask people to leave.

[456] I can do all those things but the emotional part yes and that's what trauma therapy does is if you're seeing the world through the lens of a small child it doesn't matter how many muscles you have right which is why you maybe want the muscles i don't know you or maybe somebody might want the muscles it's to feel safe all these things give you the illusion of security but that's just it they're illusions sure until they're not but they can be for a while obviously make no mistake you are going to be safer if you are physically stronger if you have financial wherewithal and so on yeah i can see a doctor when i want that's right that's security.

[457] But ultimately, the emotional security to know that you're safe, meaning the essence of you is safe, that doesn't require those things.

[458] And relying on them only fortifies the illusion that it does.

[459] Yes.

[460] I agree with you.

[461] Again, all intellectually.

[462] Doesn't mean emotionally that has an impact.

[463] Well, that's the distance between the heart and the head.

[464] And when you bridge those, that's when we move forward.

[465] I'm working towards that unification.

[466] So we didn't really get out of you and I can accept it and I can move up.

[467] I accept the premise that there is a reason why I gravitated to this.

[468] No, Yeah, you're right.

[469] It's not happenstance.

[470] But I've had, really, maybe you can help me, a hard time really pointing to something that would say, ah, because of X, that's why you went into Y. Because really my interest, my fascination, isn't just in the area of reading people, light detection.

[471] It encompasses the scope of human behavior, human nature, why we do the things that we do.

[472] Yeah, you have books about how to stay calm and not angry.

[473] What I see is someone who has a great desire to have control of their emotions.

[474] Like Spock.

[475] Right.

[476] So I don't know if emotion and others were scary around you as a kid.

[477] If your own emotions were scary when you were a kid, I don't know.

[478] I love your perception, and it requires more thought than I can give it here.

[479] And we can move on to the book.

[480] But I just get curious.

[481] You know, yeah.

[482] Yeah, get comfortable.

[483] We have some mushrooms we're going to give you to detach your ego.

[484] Oh, those are becoming huge, by the way.

[485] No, but I have the same interest as you.

[486] For me, at least, I feel like I have a genesis for all that.

[487] Yeah, yeah.

[488] No, I have a genesis, though.

[489] Clearly, what it is that I'm not so...

[490] Clear.

[491] But maybe by the time we're done, we're going to find out.

[492] Yeah.

[493] Okay, every single chapter in the book is something that I have thought about at great length.

[494] I would say this is something I certainly didn't study, but that maybe through AA, maybe through all the things we just talked about, I'm vastly interested in.

[495] So what they really think, discover what someone really thinks, even thoughts that lie deep in their subconscious mind, no matter what they say or do.

[496] I can see where this would be the very first thing we'd want to ask ourselves, whether they saying versus what do they mean that's right that's yeah why is that the starting point because in any conversation any interaction whether it's something benign you're having a casual conversation with someone the elevator at the restaurant or whether you're looking to hire someone fire somebody knowing what somebody's really thinking and feeling and so early in the therapeutic arena that's also so valuable and i do a lot of work also with other therapists and so far as the patient may not be lying to you as much as they are to themselves.

[497] So you can have somebody who comes across so authentic, so honest, and you believe it, except for the fact that they are just selling you a story because they themselves want to believe it.

[498] I clock when people say, I'm the type of person that blanks.

[499] That's their pattern of telling you who they are.

[500] Yeah.

[501] It's like a trigger for me. For good reason, by the way.

[502] You know, there's something in the brain called the reticular activating system.

[503] RAS for short, it allows for us to hone in in our environment on what's important.

[504] Maybe you had the experience of buying a new car or getting a new pair of sneakers or a new something.

[505] And you begin to see those on the road, right?

[506] You're getting in a jacket.

[507] Oh, frequency allusions.

[508] Our favorite topic.

[509] Oh, is that right?

[510] We talked about a lot.

[511] Obviously, there aren't more of those created, but as you well know, that's what you're looking for.

[512] So when you meet somebody, what they hone in on tells us, it signals to us what is significant to them.

[513] Now, significant doesn't mean that they love it.

[514] It could mean something that they fear.

[515] But make no mistake, if you ask somebody, describe this person, whether they go with physical characteristics, whether they go with emotional characteristics, whether they go with interaction, social, all of those things, that's right.

[516] They signal what they value.

[517] Now, I will tell you, you've brought up finances three different times at different points.

[518] So it's clear now, in the scope of our conversation, in addition to a couple of other nice ditties, is that financial security is something to you that is very, very important.

[519] Enormously, if you look at my four step in AA and you see the things that trigger me, I have three main fears, and financial insecurity is like at the height of that.

[520] Right, because it was injected into the conversation, as other things were, which is why you're able to build a profile of somebody.

[521] This book is not so that you can manipulate other people or sell them something they don't need.

[522] It's so that you can understand your loved ones better, have better relationships.

[523] If you're in a relationship with somebody and they keep on saying this isn't important to me, and yet there are so many signs and signals that it is, then you can improve that relationship.

[524] You can improve that communication.

[525] you can prove that conversation.

[526] Well, in its purest goal, I think it would be what you brought up earlier, which is to have an accurate perception.

[527] Yes.

[528] Just start with the goal of having an accurate perception of everything around you.

[529] It all starts with perspective.

[530] The clearer our perspective, the more reality we let in.

[531] When a person's perspective is narrow or confined because of their own egocentricity, they're not seeing what is.

[532] They're seeing a projection of their own needs, their wants, and insecurities.

[533] They're not able to have relationship.

[534] Eocentric people have a hard time connecting for that reason.

[535] because I can't focus on you if I'm absorbed in me. Yeah.

[536] Who does the person, quote, hate?

[537] I think that's an enormous clue.

[538] There's a lot of data right there.

[539] If someone's talking shit about someone, I think they're either very jealous of what that person has or they have what the person you're talking to fears they can't get.

[540] I always tell people in general relationships in the therapeutic setting, if someone doesn't like you, it's because of one or two reasons.

[541] Either you've done something to offend them or they're jealous of you.

[542] Otherwise, you wouldn't get on their radar.

[543] So no doubt.

[544] What's interesting with the research shows is that you can learn a lot about somebody by the degree to which they dislike other people.

[545] We all know that person, maybe we know more than one, who hates the world, this guy's this, this, corrupt, this.

[546] You learn a wealth, not about the world and about the people he's talking about, but about that person.

[547] The research shows that the more benignly, the more kindly we judge other people, the more emotionally healthy we are.

[548] That is immutable.

[549] Yeah, I had a good friend to point it out to me. I think he was subtly trying to correct this behavior in me, which he was impactful in.

[550] He said, when someone's telling me something negative about another person, it tells me much more about them than the other person.

[551] That's right.

[552] And I was like, oh, fuck, that's kind of true, huh?

[553] And I'm telling a lot about myself when I am talking negatively about other people.

[554] I'm afraid so.

[555] Yeah.

[556] I caught myself on a set one time.

[557] That principle became clear to me. I had gotten to work.

[558] There was a big cast, 14 people.

[559] and I said, oh, let me guess she's running 15 minutes late.

[560] And people laughed and we're all in on that.

[561] And then 20 minutes later, I'm like, why do I do that?

[562] Why do I point that out?

[563] And I thought, oh, it's because I'm on time.

[564] I'm only in a position to make that joke if I myself am on time.

[565] So really I'm bragging about the fact that I'm punctual.

[566] That's why I've done it.

[567] That was a reverse way or a subversive way for me to give myself a compliment in front of everyone.

[568] And that's not something I would aspire to be someone that comes in and goes, I'm always on time.

[569] I would never make that statement.

[570] That would be too plainly and obviously egotistical.

[571] But I figured out how to subversively give myself compliments by pointing out what other people do wrong.

[572] But also, there's what to be said for levity and lighthearted humor.

[573] And I don't think you have to beat yourself up for every comment that's not completely benign and innocent.

[574] I agree, but I want minimally to know why I do things.

[575] Fair enough.

[576] I just recognize, okay, so when I do that, I've got to at least be honest about the fact that I'm trying to elevate myself and point out that I don't have that character defect or I wouldn't be in a position to be doing it.

[577] I want to clock it and I want to monitor it and see how much I'm doing that.

[578] Very nice.

[579] Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[580] What's up guys?

[581] It's your girl Kiki and my podcast is back with a new season and let me tell you it's too good and I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest.

[582] Okay, every episode I bring on a friend and have a real comment.

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[587] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[588] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing.

[589] But for an unlucky few, these unsusperable.

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[596] Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music.

[597] It is important, though, to remember that there are two options, because I think if you start thinking everyone who's upset is jealous, that contributes to an ego.

[598] Because it could be something you've done.

[599] You're right.

[600] It's too easy to say and recuse ourselves a responsibility and say, this person's just jealous of me or they're envious of something, when really we've got to look in the mirror and ask, ourselves what it is that I might have done to contribute to this.

[601] Just because we don't think we did something wrong doesn't mean we didn't do something wrong.

[602] All it means is we didn't think we did something wrong.

[603] Even objectively, someone else might say it's not wrong, but to this person, it was insensitive because of their own vulnerabilities and sensitivities.

[604] Yeah.

[605] It's a very fine line, right?

[606] It's the line between when you're in a relationship being vulnerable and being needy.

[607] There's a little line there and you've got to stay on the right side of it, which is important.

[608] A healthy position is, well, that's their issue, how they responded to it, which often is true.

[609] And the other side of the line is, no, you're an asshole and anyone would be objectively upset by that.

[610] True.

[611] You've got to learn to kind of identify where that little line is.

[612] Would you agree?

[613] I would, but why do you equate vulnerability with neediness?

[614] Vulnerability is, I feel lonely.

[615] Lack of vulnerability would be, you're on your phone too much.

[616] You need to manage your time better.

[617] Why would you be on your phone in bed?

[618] I would love your attention is vulnerable.

[619] Attacking your use of a phone in bed is not vulnerable.

[620] What you're really asking for is your partner's attention, but attacking whether or not they should theoretically be using a phone in bed is a lack of vulnerability.

[621] Yes.

[622] I would love your attention.

[623] It's nice.

[624] It's vulnerable.

[625] Right.

[626] I would love your attention 24 -7.

[627] That's neediness.

[628] There's this spectrum.

[629] I think the art of life is learning to land in the right spot of the spectrum.

[630] So there's vulnerability, and then on the far end of vulnerability is neediness and you need to regulate my emotions for me at all times.

[631] Right.

[632] If the vulnerability is born out of an insecurity, that's insatiable, then...

[633] Exactly.

[634] In learning when you've stepped over into your insatiable, whatever and when you have a reasonable request of a partner's time and attention.

[635] Similarly, I think what you're saying is really accurate.

[636] When are you being healthy and saying that's likely their issue?

[637] Also, oh, well, a lot of people seem to have this around me. That's right.

[638] That's right.

[639] You know, maybe it's pointing to it's not everyone else's issue.

[640] It's hard to delineate.

[641] That's what the ego does, though.

[642] It makes everything somebody else's problem.

[643] I'll never look in the mirror because everyone else is the cause, the blame, they're responsible.

[644] And the ability to be able for me to love myself and of high self -esteem, which again is a converse of the ego, means then that I can look at the mirror and ask myself, what am I doing wrong?

[645] What am I doing that maybe contributing to the deterioration of this conversation relationship?

[646] But as long as my ego is engaged, I'm too busy defending myself, too busy fortify my position and trying to not feel like I'm less than, which would make me less worthy, which is my greatest fear of disconnection.

[647] Yeah, I sometimes will be talking to friends who are dating someone new.

[648] And I've had this experience.

[649] If you're dating someone and you're learning about all their past relationships and you hear about five ex -boyfriends or five -x girlfriends and all five is what that person did and why they were shitty and there's no I sucked at this part of this relationship, to me, that's a red flag.

[650] I would be inclined to say this person's probably not going to ever work on themselves as part of the relationship.

[651] So I just think if you're standing diatribe about your exes are all the reasons they were bad as opposed to why you both weren't a good fit and what you didn't do.

[652] mutually, I'd be scared a little bit.

[653] This comes up in corporations and hiring when I do trainings.

[654] That's one of the red flags I even speak about is that if you've got a prospective employee who's blaming everyone for why it is at the job that didn't work out at the past three jobs, he may not be the best candidate for you.

[655] Right, right, right, right.

[656] Okay, how a person sees and feels about other people.

[657] Find out how a person really feels about those in their life, whom they feel close to, whom they admire, and whom they secretly despise.

[658] I guess we just kind of talked about that a little bit.

[659] think who they admire is really interesting.

[660] It is.

[661] That sort of shows us the traits and the characteristics that they value and they're important to them, which again gives us an incredible window into what makes this person tick, not just their state, how they're feeling in the moment, but also goes to their overall personality traits, their values, their beliefs, their attitudes.

[662] Who do you admire?

[663] People who work on themselves.

[664] Uh -huh.

[665] Monica, who do you admire most?

[666] Yeah, that's a great one.

[667] The Olson twins.

[668] I love the Olson twins, style icons.

[669] I do because they are are self -starters.

[670] They work hard.

[671] I admire people like that.

[672] And people who stick up for underdogs.

[673] Beautiful.

[674] Didn't you date an Olson twin?

[675] I did.

[676] Yeah.

[677] It's on the wall next to you.

[678] It comes up all the time because Monica's obsessed with him.

[679] Even though she's an ex -girlfriend and we can't get her on the show.

[680] I mean, granted, another thing you probably admire about her.

[681] No desire to be on a show.

[682] Yeah, I do.

[683] It's kind of gangster.

[684] She doesn't need approval.

[685] Yeah.

[686] And who do you admire?

[687] Recently, George Washington.

[688] I just read a biography about George Washington.

[689] And I bring up who have passed that's true true true I tend to like focus on people who have something that I currently am aspiring to in George Washington had a quiet confidence no need to prove he was the smartest guy in the room just that inner confidence I'm too finding this fine line between I know what my job is and I know what my appeal is and I also don't want to cross into steamrolling and trying endlessly to impress people I want to keep the good side of the sword and then I just want know when I'm dipping into the egomaniacal, endless fucking well I'm trying to fill up with approval.

[690] And so George Washington seems to have had that compass in the ability to just shut the fuck up.

[691] And then the result was his action said everything that needed to be said.

[692] Interesting.

[693] We could say that maybe about a lot of great leaders who get other people to believe themselves rather than believe in me. I help you to believe in yourself.

[694] That's somebody who makes us want to be better and work.

[695] I think there's a lot of concepts that end up getting labeled that people know intimately, but they wouldn't be able to put a name to it, Bader Meinhauf.

[696] Everyone's gotten a car and been like, oh, fuck, everyone drives a VW Beetle.

[697] Everyone has had that.

[698] And they also on some level know, well, they didn't sell more yesterday.

[699] And similarly, you know this Dunning Kruger principle, the Dunning Kruger effect.

[700] Have you ever heard this?

[701] No. It's fantastic.

[702] I got to learn who did this paper because we talk about so much.

[703] But it is in general a little bit of a social science law that whoever knows the least about a topic generally will talk the most.

[704] about it, right?

[705] It's the guy who knows least about football in the circle watching football will tell you everything he knows because he's insecure that everyone else knows more, right?

[706] It's a neat rule, the Dunning Kruger effect.

[707] And so I think on some level, we all have A, been guilty of it.

[708] We've observed it so much.

[709] So when someone presents themselves like Grant, like George Washington, who's not spouting off everything they know.

[710] We intrinsically know that they actually know.

[711] And so we trust them and we want to be led by them.

[712] That goes to what we said before in terms of a confident person doesn't need to tell the world how great they are they can find out for themselves okay learn how to tell if in any conversation interaction or new relationship is going your way or the other way is the person just being polite or are they genuinely interested and engaged this is crucial this is that book he's just not that into you oh yeah right and movie Hollywood blockbuster yes you know of that book I do okay walk us through this because I think people are not good at recognizing when they're being placated or not.

[713] Yes.

[714] I feel bad for them.

[715] And yet it sometimes works out for them.

[716] I don't know.

[717] Everything we're describing, by the way, I will counter with my wife is the opposite.

[718] She doesn't worry about anyone's intention.

[719] She doesn't think anyone's ever deceiving her.

[720] And through some magic, that's nothing but benefited her.

[721] Yes.

[722] I'm protecting myself.

[723] You literally just said yesterday she got taken advantage of by her business manager.

[724] She did, but it didn't matter.

[725] This guy stole whatever he stole.

[726] But her overall relationship with money was like it comes.

[727] It goes, I don't give a fuck.

[728] You know what I'm saying?

[729] Yeah.

[730] Like, I strangleholded money for so long.

[731] And then I let it go and then all this money came that I would have never thought I could have gotten.

[732] That's abundance versus scarcity mentality.

[733] Right.

[734] I pointed out like, you know, he's ripping you.

[735] This gardener should be charged.

[736] And she's like, oh, okay, well, I'll get a new one.

[737] No personal didn't destroy her ego like it would have mine.

[738] She didn't go like, oh, my God, I was deceived.

[739] I'm so stupid.

[740] I knew this is going to happen.

[741] It's going to happen over and over again.

[742] My story.

[743] It happened, but it had no impact.

[744] So anyways, I just like to counter with her always.

[745] She's a great control group for me in my disposition.

[746] Sure, but what you just said is so interesting is that it happened, but it doesn't matter.

[747] That's just it.

[748] Things happen all the time, but it's the meaning we attach to it that determines how we feel.

[749] And that meaning is based on how we feel about ourselves.

[750] It doesn't matter what happens to a large extent.

[751] Because you have somebody who gets a paper cut, their week is ruined, and everyone around them their week is ruined.

[752] The meaning we attach to it dictates how we're going to feel about it.

[753] Yeah, we love to think that what we care about's objective.

[754] We interviewed Seth Rogan, and it was really awesome.

[755] I don't know how it came up, but it was about him having a manager and a business manager and all these things, and a lawyer, and I said, you think any of these folks are stealing from you?

[756] And he goes, I hope they are because I have plenty of money.

[757] I don't give a fuck.

[758] And I was like, I believe him.

[759] Yeah.

[760] What a wonderful way to be marching through life.

[761] He's like generating enough stuff.

[762] He's not even worried about it.

[763] It's not worth his energy or mental capacity to even care.

[764] There was some.

[765] He's not measuring his worth on how much money is currently in his bank.

[766] Nor is his defining characteristic is that he won't be screwed.

[767] And then so all he, he does is look for people trying to screw him.

[768] And he ruins his time on planet Earth because he's on high alert for people trying to screw him, I mean.

[769] You see how well your wife's mindset benefits her because all her emotional strength isn't spent.

[770] The capital is not spent on all these crazy stuff, which quite frankly are never going to happen anyway.

[771] Our lives are filled with traumas that never actually happened except up there.

[772] Yes.

[773] How do people on a date, if they haven't been forced to, how are they to pick up on politeness versus interest?

[774] Right.

[775] So we're We all know people like that who just can't recognize any social cues.

[776] You're talking to them at a party and you begin to turn away.

[777] It's like, all right, all right, I'll let you go in the phone, right?

[778] It's like, no, you don't have to let me go.

[779] I'm fine.

[780] I think it's a sign building.

[781] It's like, okay then.

[782] People hear okay then and doesn't clue them that that was it.

[783] Yeah, so there are people who are socially unaware and they don't pick up on any of these.

[784] But certainly there are a lot of language markers to pay attention to.

[785] The most basic is lack of follow -through in a conversation.

[786] When you get monosyllabic responses, I mean, I'm sure you've been speaking with people and you just want to be polite and not walk away, but you're not really going to give a flowery over -the -top answer and ask them anything back, right?

[787] The conversation will be very lopsided.

[788] If you pay attention to it, it'll be glaringly obvious.

[789] The more we sort of pick up on other people's sentences, the greater the rapport is.

[790] For example, you're talking to somebody, it's crowded in here.

[791] Yeah, it sure is.

[792] It's hot.

[793] Where are you coming from work?

[794] Oh, you work over there.

[795] And they're sort of just like, it's an ebb in a flow, whereas if you're talking to somebody and they're not that interested, you're going to get a lot of sort of concrete nouns back and you're not going to get any, it was ellipses, sort of pick up on the conversations.

[796] Right, like coldestack, someone said.

[797] This conversation is a cul -de -sac, you remember?

[798] Conversational cul -de -sac.

[799] We just learned it.

[800] I guess in improv comedy, we'd say, is it yes -anding?

[801] Or is it just like, that's right.

[802] That is on 50 -second.

[803] Right.

[804] I'm always kind of shocked with a friend will be like, I don't know if this person's interest me. Here's this text, and I set this text.

[805] There's so much info in texting how quickly they get back to you.

[806] How long was the text back?

[807] To me, that might be easier for people to see because it's so stark.

[808] Your bubble's four inches long.

[809] There's is one inch.

[810] It's also hard to tell.

[811] People are playing games, playing hard to get.

[812] There's so many factors.

[813] Yeah.

[814] So I think you're both right here.

[815] There is a wealth of information.

[816] But one of the reasons why the book had gotten so much attention is because it doesn't rely on one -trick ponies.

[817] Like, look at the length of the text or look at how many times they say I or me. because there are so many layers and so many factors.

[818] Maybe he was on a bus in a rush.

[819] Maybe he was driving texting.

[820] You don't know.

[821] What you do know is that you have to look at more than just one or two markers that decide whether or not you're going to break up with this person or whether you're going to go out with them.

[822] Could we say minimally rule of thumb?

[823] The engagement should be back and forth?

[824] That would be fair to say on a consistent basis.

[825] But there are some people.

[826] They're just not textors.

[827] That's true.

[828] They're not into emoticons and they're not into this.

[829] Other people are not good on the phone.

[830] That's the challenge for somebody who relies too heavily on a soundbite on reading somebody when really what they need are in a single sentence to look at five, six, seven, eight markers.

[831] So let's say you've got two people that are walking out on a first state and the girl casually turns to the guy and says, you know, where'd we park the car?

[832] Now, the fact that she says, where do we park the car?

[833] We, rather than you, it's a small shift in the pronoun, but so telling.

[834] It's so romantic now that you point that out.

[835] It is nice.

[836] Once you begin to see these clues, you can't help but see them all the time.

[837] You won't have conversations the same way.

[838] You'll be listening, but it's so much richer what you're hearing.

[839] Now, of course, if the girl says, where do you park?

[840] Your car doesn't mean she's not interested.

[841] But when she says we, that's a subtle subtext of interest.

[842] Right, right, right.

[843] But I'd like to be a combined unit with you.

[844] That's right.

[845] She's already seeing themselves.

[846] If you're not interested in somebody, there's no we, there's no us.

[847] There's me and there's you.

[848] Yes, yes.

[849] And hopefully a huge wall between us at some point.

[850] okay this is a great one you didn't call this but chapter four is kind of about leverage relationship status and power who's holding all the cards and it's not obvious right you would think leverage would be determined by other societal status markers education money this or that right again rely on those and you could be making a huge mistake why do we need to know who has the leverage you don't always it's not necessary but if you're in what you think is a relationship of colleagues and you note that this person is acting more of a superior and you as a subordinate, that might be something that you pay attention to.

[851] And certainly a personal relationship, if your boyfriend and girlfriend believes that they're holding all the cards.

[852] It would make me insecure, and then I don't act my best when I'm insecure.

[853] And I have a bunch of bad tactics to feel secure.

[854] Right.

[855] I have many acquaintances who have a ton of leverage.

[856] They're super famous.

[857] They have a ton of money.

[858] And they like to exclusively date people who have a one -bedroom apartment.

[859] It's obviously to me, they want someone that's just going to get on the train that is going down the tracks.

[860] Is that wrong or right?

[861] Is it unhealthy for someone to just want a companion that's just along for the ride?

[862] And is it okay to even be a person who wants to just join in someone's?

[863] Every relationship reaches its own equilibrium.

[864] And no matter what the relationship is, you're never going to have a relationship of complete equals.

[865] One may be more financial secure.

[866] The other may be more attractive.

[867] One may be more intelligent.

[868] One may be more highest.

[869] So it's going to be different levels.

[870] I think it's ridiculous for me to say that it's unhealthy for somebody to want somebody who's more simple and that they could be the provider and take care of this person.

[871] I'm much more interested.

[872] Does this person respect that person?

[873] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[874] I think you need to check yourself if you're attracted to someone who doesn't want to respect you.

[875] I would say that that could injure certainly an effective relationship if somebody's not respecting you because it says something about both of those people.

[876] Yes, it means you don't kind of respect yourself.

[877] No doubt.

[878] And also, So there's always something to respect in somebody.

[879] It's always something to appreciate.

[880] No matter who it is, you can respect a struggle where they came from.

[881] It deal a lot with relationships.

[882] The person says, I can't respect my spouse because he lost his job.

[883] Does he scream and yell at the kids?

[884] Does he treat you properly?

[885] Does he exercise good manners?

[886] Is he a manch?

[887] Is he a decent human being?

[888] If you use as a barometer of respect, something that society says is valuable, in and of itself, that's problematic.

[889] So to not respect somebody because they don't have that.

[890] It's like not respecting somebody because they're not attractive.

[891] And there are people, as you well know, that don't respect somebody because they're not physically attractive.

[892] That's insane.

[893] But as it's also insane, say, I don't respect somebody because they don't earn enough money.

[894] To me, a complaint can be this person's not engaged in life.

[895] They're just lazy across the board.

[896] Fair enough.

[897] That's quite different.

[898] But there's a million ways to be on fire for life that don't involve climbing a corporate ladder, making a lot of money.

[899] Some of the most ambitious, passionate people work for nonprofits.

[900] They don't have a dime.

[901] I don't get those people, but yes, I can see.

[902] it and I respect it.

[903] There is something about if you're looking for a partner, potentially you want them to be having nothing to do with money but at a similar place in life that you are at.

[904] I would agree you want somebody who has shared values and beliefs.

[905] If you're going east, they're going west, you're going to have a hard time meeting in the middle.

[906] But if you've got that foundation of values and beliefs and general attitudes and this is how you see the world and this is what you want for yourself, regardless of where the person's station is in life, you're going to have a much better chance of an effective relationship than if they're both equal in terms of their station, financially, let's say, but one believes that this is how the world should be, this is how we should be.

[907] And they're thinking, no, it doesn't work for me. Every argument is going to stem from that foundation, and they're going to be lots of them.

[908] Right.

[909] Again, I'm inclined to think, if it's really important to you that your partner has some financial status or some educational status, what it really says is it's important to you that you have, financial status and educational status and that that person's going to be a reflection of you.

[910] So that's really your thing.

[911] If you confronted that and you had your own security in all those ways, you probably wouldn't demand it in your partner anymore.

[912] This comes up all the time when I work with people who are dating to say, I need to go out with somebody like this.

[913] Now, do you need to date someone like this for you?

[914] Because I've had people say, what will they think of me if I go out with her?

[915] I marry her.

[916] What are people going to say?

[917] What are they think about you?

[918] But she's great, which is such a sad way of going into a relationship is you look at this person as a reflection of your own self -worth.

[919] Right.

[920] Okay.

[921] I'm going to poke a hole a little bit.

[922] So let's take Los Angeles where we live.

[923] There's a reality to a struggle.

[924] Everyone's struggling in some ways.

[925] But actors here and musicians, everyone who's trying, and there's a type of life that that comes with when you're in this struggle.

[926] And you have to choose if you want to hit your ride to that.

[927] No, but actually, I would argue you're getting into the realness of your objection.

[928] So the objection isn't that they're not high status.

[929] It's that I don't know if I want to be dating someone who's driving to 25 auditions.

[930] That's like a mechanical aspect of a relationship you might not want.

[931] And it's not your ego going.

[932] I don't like that I'm with someone who's struggling.

[933] That's what I mean.

[934] I mean, it's literally the day to day.

[935] Do I want to engage day to day with a person who is...

[936] Regularly depressed that they're getting rejected all the time.

[937] There's a rejection all the time.

[938] There's self -worth issues.

[939] constantly.

[940] Is that a relationship I want to engage in?

[941] I think that's different than I want someone high status because they reflect on me. Would you agree?

[942] Yeah, I hear the difference and I don't disagree with what you said.

[943] If certain lifestyles and ambitions come with a package deal, they also have to be a package temperament.

[944] If you want more of the accountant style, that's not going to be it for you, which is perfectly legitimate.

[945] Again, it's a pretty broad statement because you and I were that way when we're getting rejected all the time.

[946] But Kristen wasn't.

[947] She was like having a fine time climbing the ladder, right?

[948] Like her self -esteem wasn't going in the shitter every time like mine was and yours was well she was much younger sure sure but there are people i've observed people that are just kind of like they go on an audition and then they're at lunch with their friend that wasn't me right i took the stuff personal and it affected me and it was a grind but for other people it seemed to be painless you've got to further deline if this person's living the struggle you talk about and it's taxing or not because some people aren't even when they're doing the thing for sure and once again it points to your wife's emotional health and so far as the smaller the ego, the less consumed we are by the perceptions of other people and the less weight we give it.

[949] So when somebody says something not nice to her, she knows all that means is that what somebody thinks about you is a reflection of their own self -worth, their self -esteem.

[950] It doesn't make it about you unless you make it about you.

[951] And she's able to depersonalize it because the ego is what makes everything about us.

[952] So with less of an ego, you're not taking things up personally.

[953] Right.

[954] This was an interesting one because I first read the book, I guess because I'm egocentric, I think of mind reader as interpersonal relationships.

[955] But obviously the application is in the NSA.

[956] It's also as an employer.

[957] It's as a parent as all these things.

[958] So as you already learned about me, I'm a greedy little pig and negotiations fascinate me. So calling someone's bluff, the art of reading a bluff and knowing when it's a bluff, how on earth does that happen?

[959] Because I think I have a sense of it, but I've never been able to put words to it or really break it down.

[960] There are probably dozens of nuances, but in broad strokes, the rule of thumb is that the more a person tries to sell you, the less confident they are in their position.

[961] It works the same way in a person's own sense of confidence.

[962] Let's say there's a job for a film.

[963] This is what you want for it.

[964] And it wasn't a matter of negotiation or not.

[965] That's what it is.

[966] You would pretty much have a very, this is what I need.

[967] I'm sorry if it doesn't work for you, but in order for me to work and so on, almost conciliatory.

[968] If you were bluffing, you would be like, This is what I need.

[969] Making my case all the time.

[970] That's right.

[971] You would be trying to fortify your position because you yourself don't believe it.

[972] And when you watch for it, it is so glaringly obvious.

[973] It's called the oversell.

[974] And the more they try to sell you, which is why, very often, just parenthetically, a person makes a threat, extortion or bomb threat, whatever it is.

[975] Threats are often meant as acts of desperation, not intention.

[976] Gavin DeBacker actually says that.

[977] He's the leading threat assessment expert.

[978] Because when a person threatens, they'd rather not do.

[979] what they're threatening to do.

[980] That's why they're making the threat in the first place.

[981] Right.

[982] Otherwise, they simply do it.

[983] Yes, yes, yes.

[984] So even though it's scary, that's right, the 9 -11 guys didn't make a threat.

[985] That's right.

[986] They wanted to do that.

[987] So even though it's scary when somebody's, sorry, extort us or blackmail us, the truth is, if they're doing it, it's unlikely that they plan on following through.

[988] There are other markers to look for, by the way, as to whether or not they're sincere.

[989] But generally, they're threats, again, of desperation, not intention.

[990] They don't tell you what the person's going to do.

[991] They're telling you that they are desperate for your response, for your action, for you to do something.

[992] Yeah.

[993] Let's dig even deeper.

[994] This happens to people all the time.

[995] It happened to me the other day.

[996] We had an employee that wanted more money.

[997] I said, what would you like?

[998] She said this.

[999] And I was like, great, you deserve that.

[1000] And we'll revisit it again.

[1001] And then I saw maybe panic of like, well, that went too easy.

[1002] I should have asked for more.

[1003] And then I wanted to say to her like, that's not what happened.

[1004] That sounded rational to me. The instinct of someone is like, I guess I should have got.

[1005] more.

[1006] This fear I've left money on the table is powerful.

[1007] Yeah.

[1008] Look, you know in any negotiation, you give an offer and they say, okay, you're like, oh, really?

[1009] It's human nature to think that you could have gotten more.

[1010] Maybe she caught herself and realized that it was very fair, which is why one of the rules in negotiation is even if you're ready to give a quick yes, don't.

[1011] Oh, okay.

[1012] Tell me why.

[1013] Let's say you're going out to buy something.

[1014] You say the salesman, you do it for X amount of money.

[1015] He says, sure, you're like, oh, I definitely could have gotten it for less.

[1016] Right.

[1017] So it's for their benefit, I guess.

[1018] It's that whole hem and hoeing, the struggle, he goes back, talks to the sales manager, comes back, talks about it, and you're like, ah, I got a deal.

[1019] Yeah, yeah.

[1020] But it's all as deception, I guess.

[1021] But it's required to make the other person feel like they.

[1022] It's human nature.

[1023] Yeah.

[1024] There's kind of a principle in movie negotiations, which I don't know that everyone knows, but I'll always say it to friends.

[1025] The first question you have to ask yourself is, does the movie need me or do I need the movie?

[1026] And it's clear generally all the time.

[1027] There's a real answer to that.

[1028] Either you'd be lucky to get in the movie.

[1029] movie itself will lift you or the movie needs to be lifted by you.

[1030] Once you know that, you kind of know what your leverage is.

[1031] Yeah.

[1032] And then without being egomaniacal, you should then try to attempt to assess a real reason you deserve X, Y, or Z. And I think you're right.

[1033] When you know it and you feel good about it and you've recognized, no, the movie needs me, it's a very easy negotiation.

[1034] And if it blows up, you don't care because you already decided that.

[1035] And you can see your mindset is entirely different, how you approach them, how you speak to them.

[1036] It's not emotional.

[1037] That's right.

[1038] Another thing is, I know an attorney who's gotten some deals that just no one had ever heard of and you couldn't imagine someone getting it.

[1039] And I said to him, what is the secret?

[1040] And he said, well, data first, you really want as much information as you can get.

[1041] But beyond that, you really have to identify what the emotional component is.

[1042] In any deal, there's going to be many points.

[1043] And if you can figure out what point is the emotional one for them and you can give them that, you can generally get the other things.

[1044] And I thought that was really incite.

[1045] That's brilliant.

[1046] I mean, you have to be somewhat of an empath or something to be able to recognize what someone's emotional point is.

[1047] And they're always emotional factors for sure.

[1048] Someone might be willing to be generous, but then there's a point where it's like, well, now you're making me look foolish.

[1049] What is that line where they would feel foolish is important?

[1050] Okay, where are we at here?

[1051] This is a blast.

[1052] You have a chapter on personality and mental health.

[1053] Find out whether anyone you meet a potential higher, blind date, or new babysitter has an easygoing and agreeable nature or is a force of nature just waiting to be unleashed.

[1054] I would say right out of the gates, this is probably a delicate topic in that could we say blanketly we don't want to have relationships with people with certain mental health issues like borderline personality disorder?

[1055] I think if you enter in one of those, you will ultimately be the villain in that person's life.

[1056] So I don't disagree.

[1057] Having said that, I do know that people with borderline can and do have successful relationships with proper therapy and medication.

[1058] And quite recently, there are a lot of new developments in terms of personality disorders, borderline being one of them.

[1059] Granted, anyone that knows someone with a borderline, it is tough or narcissistic personality disorder, or histrionic, or antisocial, which is obviously the most challenging, it's sociopath or psychopathic.

[1060] Okay.

[1061] What percentage of the population is sociopathic?

[1062] Do you think we all have sociopathic friends we don't know we have?

[1063] You do.

[1064] I think that's a good guess.

[1065] I don't think I do.

[1066] You know, the stats are startling.

[1067] I don't believe the stats.

[1068] I'll tell you what they are.

[1069] One out of 25.

[1070] I think that is startingly high.

[1071] That's a challenge also, by the way, when you talk about personality disorders, the overlap, the diagnostic tools that are used to evaluate it, if people really knew just how flawed the system was.

[1072] The DSM.

[1073] Yeah.

[1074] It was created in order to bill insurance.

[1075] That's what it comes down to.

[1076] If you can't classify something, then you can't bill insurance.

[1077] you have to classify.

[1078] The classification does good to extend, but relying on it and using it as some sort of Bible is insanity.

[1079] Yeah, yeah, I agree.

[1080] It's good and it's very flawed.

[1081] You could read through that.

[1082] That's me. That's me. That's me. It's so easy to find yourself in these.

[1083] They're like horoscopes.

[1084] Yes, exactly, right.

[1085] Open to interpretation.

[1086] And also, that's just it.

[1087] The diagnostician, the person actually doing it, he may have one evaluation where somebody else is going to have a different one.

[1088] So I always tell people, by the way, if you're diagnosed with a personality, but certainly before you start taking medication, get a second opinion, because they're just wrong too often.

[1089] You can imagine why that's a challenge.

[1090] Most people have a hard enough time getting to the first person.

[1091] Yes.

[1092] I'm pretty sympathetic to that.

[1093] I know, but the challenge is when you get into the field of medication and the side effects, medication can be life -saving and people who need it to take it.

[1094] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[1095] Back to sociopaths.

[1096] Let's say it's not one in 25.

[1097] Let's say it's one in a hundred.

[1098] The point would be is we do interact with sociopaths.

[1099] We do.

[1100] And they're incredibly empathetic.

[1101] Well, they feign empathy.

[1102] Their ability to empathize is corrupted.

[1103] They don't because, again, when a person is absorbed in their own stuff, there's no room for anyone else.

[1104] But they are masters of deception because they are so practiced of putting on a show on a facade.

[1105] They know how real people should act.

[1106] One of the tells, by the way.

[1107] And they're good at recognizing what you want to hear.

[1108] Of course.

[1109] In that part, they are empathetic.

[1110] They know your state of mind.

[1111] and they can give you the thing you want.

[1112] Right.

[1113] So I would draw the distinction so far as you're right, but empathy is feeling someone else's pain.

[1114] They're not feeling the pain.

[1115] They're able to understand what it is that you want in a manipulative way, give you that, but make no mistake.

[1116] They're not going home, going, I can't believe this person's suffering with this.

[1117] They're not absorbed in your stuff at all.

[1118] They use it.

[1119] And one of the most difficult things to understand about a sociopath is that they literally have no conscience.

[1120] And knowing that people walk around without a conscience, scares the daylight side of any reasonable person.

[1121] Of course.

[1122] So we'd like to think that, no, they're really good people.

[1123] They just had a tough this or that.

[1124] And they really do care deep down.

[1125] No, a person who suffers with genuine sociopathy is void of conscience, and they will do and act completely and only in their own self -interest.

[1126] They don't feel fear the way we do.

[1127] So they act without compunction, without reservation, without hesitation.

[1128] They are scary.

[1129] And knowing what to watch out for with them is obviously very valuable.

[1130] I spent the chapter talking about it because it's one thing to get taken advantage of by someone who's, you know, maybe a little bit of a narcissist, someone who's a little bit egocentric.

[1131] But an outright sociopath, your life can be at stake.

[1132] How does one recognize they're dealing with a sociopath?

[1133] So there are a number of markers to pay attention to.

[1134] One is believe nothing of what they say, meaning that it's too easy to get sucked into the story.

[1135] Sociopaths have no real genuine friendships or relationships.

[1136] That is a strong marker.

[1137] You know people who are not sociopaths that don't have good relationships also, but their inability to connect.

[1138] So they will be friends with the world, but close to nobody.

[1139] Ooh.

[1140] Okay, so that's a distinction I can latch on to you.

[1141] So they have a lot of acquaintances.

[1142] No real genuine friendships, their own relationships, be it with their parents or with siblings.

[1143] Everything is strained, fractured, and certainly it's never their fault.

[1144] It's everybody else's fault.

[1145] They act in their own best interest.

[1146] They'll play the long game sometimes.

[1147] they'll do something, oh, you're so good, you dropped off on the way to the restaurant to go ahead and to do this, and you'll hear these acts of kindness dripped into conversation.

[1148] But when push comes to shove and there's really something at stake and there's no benefit for them, they are gone.

[1149] And how's that different from narcissism?

[1150] Is it just more extreme?

[1151] Someone who has a narcissistic personality disorder, I tell people that a narcissist is not somebody who won't do everything you want them to do.

[1152] People always say, you know, my boy, it's just a narcissist.

[1153] It's like, no, the fact that he's not picking up his laundry doesn't make him a narcissist.

[1154] Right, exactly.

[1155] All these people, by the way, suffer with pervasive low self -esteem.

[1156] So you're just talking about an ego that's dominant.

[1157] And they all want, by the way, connection.

[1158] And the surrogate's a connection is control, which is why they all have control at the core of their go -to for manipulation.

[1159] They need to control the relationship.

[1160] They need to be in charge.

[1161] And sometimes they're so clever at it.

[1162] So a narcissist is somebody who's entirely perception -oriented.

[1163] Their world is about how they are seen.

[1164] because, again, if self -esteem and the ego -inversy related, the less self -esteem I have, the bigger the image and the more image -conscious they're going to become.

[1165] Now, we all engage in what's called impression of management.

[1166] We manage our perception.

[1167] We want people to see us a certain way, but the narcissist will twist and contort and turn and shift in order to accommodate people's perception to such an extent that they lose themselves.

[1168] And they're completely self -absorbed that only their own wants and needs are paramount.

[1169] It's what I need.

[1170] It's not that they're bad people.

[1171] They are just so esconsed in their own pain.

[1172] You get a toothache, everyone else's problems go out of the window.

[1173] You just can't deal with anything.

[1174] So imagine a person who's in intense emotional pain.

[1175] They just can't establish that connection because they're absorbed in their own pain.

[1176] But they have a conscience.

[1177] They still feel bad when they hurt somebody.

[1178] There's sadness that they're lonely.

[1179] They know they're not connected.

[1180] That's right.

[1181] The sociopath in contrast, there's no conscience.

[1182] There's no need for companionship connection.

[1183] no mistake.

[1184] They have needs that they want satisfied, but they're not interested in a genuine connection.

[1185] And they don't feel the lack of the connection.

[1186] It's interesting.

[1187] There's some recent studies that show maybe there are some embers, but suffice it to say, generally speaking, they avoid a connection.

[1188] So again, if our biggest fear is disconnection, that's one reason why they don't have fear is because you can't do anything to me. Uh -huh.

[1189] Okay, the very last one I want to talk about because I think it's our great obsession on here is the narrative.

[1190] So people's stories.

[1191] We talk about this a lot.

[1192] If you have a story you're telling yourself, you generally only look for data that confirms that story and you generally ignore all conflicting data.

[1193] I do it.

[1194] So I think this is really crucial.

[1195] In fact, we encourage people to ask themselves what story they're telling themselves and then what is the outcome of that.

[1196] What are you going to miss because of the story?

[1197] But I've never really even thought about how vital it is that you know what someone else's story is.

[1198] When you know their story, you know what they think, what they believe.

[1199] You also know their points of sensitivity, that third rail to stay away from in conversation.

[1200] You know what their vulnerabilities are.

[1201] You also know how they see the world and what's important to them, their values.

[1202] So everyone's got their story, the more aware we are of our story, the healthier we are.

[1203] Because we know it's just that.

[1204] It's a story.

[1205] We make up in order to feel more secure.

[1206] And then, as you said, through cognitive bias or heuristics, we take mental shortcuts.

[1207] And if I need to believe, that the world is out to get me, I'm only going to pick up those cues in my environment that reinforce that because I'm looking for cohesion.

[1208] I'm looking for consistency and congruency with what it is I believe.

[1209] I will dismiss everything else.

[1210] You're basically a terrible scientist.

[1211] You have a hypothesis and you're not looking at any data that doesn't support the hypothesis.

[1212] That's right.

[1213] You are terrible scientists because you're not open to anything new.

[1214] You're only looking to something that confirms your own biases.

[1215] Yeah.

[1216] And you can see where this would easily materialize in, and you'd be better at showing me an employee and all these other areas.

[1217] But I, of course, just would maybe think romantically.

[1218] It's like if you sit down on a first date with somebody and you hear that everyone always does blank to me, this always happens to me. You'd have to be honest enough to say, despite what you may provide, it's somehow going to get funneled into that story, that you're never going to be stronger than that person's story.

[1219] If everyone always takes advantage of me, guess what, you two will be someone that took advantage of the person, it's too much to compete with.

[1220] If it's counter to what you're after, I guess.

[1221] Of course.

[1222] And you can show this person reality.

[1223] I share with you one of my favorite anecdotes.

[1224] And so this guy who wakes up thinking he's a zombie.

[1225] Turns to his wife and says, honey, I'm a zombie.

[1226] She said, you're not a zombie.

[1227] Go back to bed.

[1228] He said, I'm telling you I'm a zombie.

[1229] So I'm going to get your mother on the phone.

[1230] Now you think this would be enough to shake any guy into reality.

[1231] No, dies.

[1232] Gets mom on the phone.

[1233] Mom says, what's the problem?

[1234] The son says, I don't have a problem.

[1235] Mother says, I hear you think you're a zombie sweetheart.

[1236] He says, no, mom, I know I'm a zombie.

[1237] So they go down to the psychiatrist.

[1238] The psychiatrist says, let me ask your question.

[1239] You think you're zombie?

[1240] Now the guy's just getting exacerbated.

[1241] I know I'm a zombie, Docs.

[1242] Let me ask you a question.

[1243] Do zombies bleed?

[1244] I said, of course we don't bleed.

[1245] We are the undead.

[1246] Psychiatrist says, okay.

[1247] He goes over to his desk drawing and takes out a pen.

[1248] Walks over to the guy, takes the finger and goes, guys staring at amazement at his finger four or five minutes, complete silence and finally looks up and he says, well, what do you know?

[1249] Zombies do bleed.

[1250] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1251] We will twist and contort.

[1252] We all know people.

[1253] they will twist and contort the facts in order to accommodate their own personal narrative.

[1254] It doesn't matter what we do.

[1255] It's what we should have done.

[1256] It's what we didn't say, how we said, what we should have said, when we didn't say what they wanted to hear.

[1257] You're right.

[1258] There's no winning against that narrative.

[1259] So then what do we do?

[1260] You know, I ever speak to somebody that doesn't speak English and you think if you just articulate clearly enough and enunciate and use gestures, like, can you?

[1261] So when you're speaking to somebody, you're knocking on the door, nobody's home.

[1262] You bang your head against the door.

[1263] It's just an emotional infrastructure.

[1264] There's no one to read.

[1265] reason with.

[1266] We think that if we just present a clear argument, then they're going to come to the only logical conclusion.

[1267] The best thing to do is to enter their space.

[1268] What they ultimately need a person like this without pathologizing is to be understood.

[1269] And what we do is the exact opposite.

[1270] We invalidate the experience.

[1271] We say, you're crazy or some form of that, and we all know how those conversations go.

[1272] As long as they're telling you and selling you on their narrative of the story, they're never going to relax.

[1273] They're never going to drop the shield.

[1274] So the best way to get in that stealth and get past that shield is by empathizing, letting them know you really understand their pain, validating, which is nothing to do with right and wrong, validation simply means, based on your experience, based on your perception, I get why this is painful for you.

[1275] That is so cathartic when a person gets that you understand.

[1276] When they understand that you know their pain, they drop their shield, that's when you can help them to see from a different perspective.

[1277] But a person can't put on your glasses until they take off their own.

[1278] And they're not going to take off their own while they're still in pain.

[1279] Okay, two things.

[1280] One, this is the exact paradigm our politics is just painfully locked into.

[1281] No one's making any effort to go, I can totally understand why you're afraid of that.

[1282] That's scary.

[1283] Yeah.

[1284] There's like a hack within AA, which is you would never tell somebody that they're right or wrong.

[1285] It's just kind of off the table.

[1286] Yeah.

[1287] But what you can do is tell your own story and how you got out of that.

[1288] We're not talking about you now.

[1289] Often what happens is someone's like, I relate to that story because it's not an attack.

[1290] I think that's another way to help people.

[1291] through their stories is just recognize when you've had your own story.

[1292] That's similar.

[1293] And then just tell that story honestly.

[1294] And perhaps the theme or the moral arises without you're ever of challenging theirs.

[1295] That is exactly why group therapy can be so effective when one -on -one fails is because when I hear someone else's story, I don't have to defend it.

[1296] My ego's not engaged.

[1297] It's not about me. That's right.

[1298] I depersonalize it.

[1299] This is their stuff, but I can see myself in them without that guard up.

[1300] Yeah.

[1301] That's the only thing that has ever broken through to me because I'm super hardheaded and a defensive.

[1302] And the only thing I've ever learned is by someone talking not to me, but just in front of me. Oh my God.

[1303] Okay.

[1304] Dr. David Lieberman.

[1305] Mind reader, the new science of deciphering what people really think, what they really want and who they really are.

[1306] I could talk to you for seven hours about this.

[1307] I think there's so many incredibly interesting facets to us people.

[1308] And good thing for you.

[1309] for the listener, we only really went over about four of the 20 chapters.

[1310] So if you are interested in this line of inquiry, as I am, I encourage you to get mind reader.

[1311] Thanks so much for coming.

[1312] It was a blast.

[1313] Thank you, Dax, Monica.

[1314] Thank you, Robbie.

[1315] Thank you so much.

[1316] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1317] Oh, God, we just had a guest who was super persuasive.

[1318] He was so cute and charming, too.

[1319] He's a philosophy professor.

[1320] He's a real -life cheating.

[1321] Real -life cheating.

[1322] Fucking great organization.

[1323] And he just got us to donate money.

[1324] And we were just saying how painful morality is.

[1325] Everyone got zinged on that one.

[1326] Everyone will, everyone will hear this.

[1327] But, you know, I decided willy -nilly that I was going to donate money.

[1328] And then I kind of, I fucked you over, Monica.

[1329] Well, I was, I was going to.

[1330] Yeah, no quite.

[1331] And that's not what I'm saying.

[1332] No, but yeah.

[1333] I, there was just, it had already come up earlier in the interview.

[1334] So it was a perfect way to fuck you as we were talking about your shirt.

[1335] Yeah.

[1336] And I have to imagine at that point Rob was like Fuck He's about to go to the bathroom Oh my God Rob you're so greedy He's human I can relate I didn't want to give any money Yeah and being humans greedy I know I'm greedy So I'm great Greedy I'm not even a green little pig I'm greedy big pig I'm just disgusting No I already I haven't even paid yet And I already feel great Oh wow Yeah I just Like spending money.

[1337] Yeah, you, well, and you, you and Kristen have this in common.

[1338] Like, you do get a charge out of donating money.

[1339] And we donate a bunch of money throughout the year.

[1340] But even when I've signed up on my own, I don't get the, like, bump.

[1341] I get a bump when I help someone individually.

[1342] I don't get that.

[1343] Yeah.

[1344] It doesn't do that, too.

[1345] It doesn't charge me up.

[1346] Like, it really charges you guys up.

[1347] Yeah, like, I have a life goal of starting a scholarship fund.

[1348] There you go.

[1349] And I've paid for someone's college.

[1350] I know.

[1351] And it felt awesome.

[1352] I got such a thrill out of it.

[1353] But it wasn't like, I got to do this for a hundred people.

[1354] Yeah, I get, well, I think I'm in between you two.

[1355] Yeah, yeah, and everything virtually.

[1356] Yeah, I mostly get a high giving to people in my world.

[1357] Yes, me too.

[1358] But I still get a nice bump when it's strangers or people who I'm really like, they need help.

[1359] Like, I want to be part of that.

[1360] The ultimate high for me is not even giving somebody something.

[1361] it's being a part of someone getting it themselves.

[1362] Yeah, I do like that.

[1363] But I went to Ace's dance class last week.

[1364] It was so cute.

[1365] And you danced or you just watched?

[1366] No, no, I just watched.

[1367] I don't want to see that.

[1368] He's a fucking great dancer.

[1369] He's so good.

[1370] Okay, so he's the best in the class normally, and it's like by far.

[1371] So anyway, Erica drops him off and then she goes next door and has a breakfast burrito.

[1372] So I met her for the breakfast burrito.

[1373] And then for the end, you're allowed to come back for the, Very end and watch.

[1374] And spy.

[1375] So you're not distracted during the learning.

[1376] And so they like show everyone their dance.

[1377] And at the very end after they all do the dance, the teacher like picks one of this like best students.

[1378] And they dance together solo in front of everyone.

[1379] The teacher and the student.

[1380] And it's always Ace.

[1381] Okay.

[1382] But this time it was this other girl.

[1383] Okay.

[1384] And she was really good.

[1385] And she was so cute.

[1386] And as soon as we left Ace was like, that girl is really good like he felt competitive and he told Erica like she takes privates so I really want to take privates and then Erica said to Charlie now Ace wants to take privates and I was like how much are they and gets like 125 or something she was like that's crazy anyway so then when I got home I was like can I please donate to the Ace fund?

[1387] Yeah yeah like 10 classes yeah just see if he likes that well let's see if he likes It makes it.

[1388] No, I'm serious.

[1389] No, I know, you're right.

[1390] Because he might be like, I actually hate this.

[1391] Yeah, it's too intimate.

[1392] And she seemed like she was willing to take me up on it.

[1393] But I hope she does because I like that feeling.

[1394] Notes?

[1395] Of course.

[1396] I think the move would have been to approach the teacher and say, can we do a gift card for 10 privates?

[1397] That way she doesn't have to be involved in saying yes or no. It just shows up and it's paid for.

[1398] and it's like, what am I going to do?

[1399] Tell them no. Yeah, that would have been good.

[1400] This is going forward.

[1401] I didn't think about that because there's so much.

[1402] So many moving parts.

[1403] There's so much logistics with privates.

[1404] Yes, yes, yes.

[1405] You get the person's phone number.

[1406] It's like it doesn't feel like it's through the studio, but even though it is.

[1407] Yeah, I feel you.

[1408] Like, I don't know if I could have gotten, I guess I could have just paid the guy.

[1409] That's right.

[1410] Yeah.

[1411] You would have just said like, well, you could ask Ace, who gives her privates.

[1412] Yeah, we already know.

[1413] That's a dangerous term.

[1414] And when I just said it that way, who gives her privates?

[1415] I really love to pay for AIS's Privat.

[1416] How much for me to pay for your privates?

[1417] 10 of your privates.

[1418] Erica, I'm just like, can I please pay for Aces Privates?

[1419] Yeah.

[1420] I know, it's rough.

[1421] Anyway, this is David Lieberman.

[1422] Yes.

[1423] Mind reader.

[1424] Mind reader.

[1425] Yes, yes, yes.

[1426] I hit David with a few novel experiences.

[1427] One, being an interview who nudeed up in front of him, immediately upon meeting him.

[1428] Yep.

[1429] Number two, dipping.

[1430] He was gobsmacked by that activity.

[1431] He was.

[1432] I'll be honest.

[1433] I've been waiting for that from somebody.

[1434] For somebody.

[1435] I really have.

[1436] There's so many moments where I'm kind of like looking a little bit at you, like, oh, God, someone's definitely going to say something.

[1437] And no one has.

[1438] This was a first.

[1439] I'm as shocked as he was.

[1440] Yes.

[1441] But let's paint.

[1442] a well -rounded context.

[1443] One is I'm intermittent with it.

[1444] So it's not like the last 400 guests have watched me do it.

[1445] That is true.

[1446] It's, I'm streaky, right?

[1447] So, like, I didn't dip in Europe for three weeks because that was my agreement with Lincoln.

[1448] Yeah.

[1449] Now I'm dipping until the end of the motorhome trip.

[1450] And then I got to do a month off.

[1451] So it's not like all people didn't say anything.

[1452] That's true.

[1453] It's some percentage.

[1454] But you're right.

[1455] Even with the percentage.

[1456] It's a lot, though.

[1457] Yeah, it is.

[1458] It is.

[1459] And wouldn't you agree that?

[1460] over Zoom, it's probably, they're not quite clear what's going on.

[1461] Like, what is he, why is you holding that thing?

[1462] I don't think it's obvious, like, I think I tuck it in pretty quickly, no one really, I don't know.

[1463] I can see you like on Zoom, you're not knowing, but when you're here on the couch and you watch me do the whole, the whole ritual, you're, you know what just happened.

[1464] And you know what I'm doing with that extra jug?

[1465] I'm going to be spitting in it.

[1466] Yeah.

[1467] Yeah.

[1468] I think that's true on Zoom.

[1469] It would be harder to tell.

[1470] But I do think it bodes well for our guests.

[1471] in general I think a lot of our guests come from somewhat of a blue -collar world where this is not all okay some people are just they don't want to make me uncomfortable yeah I think that's what is happening yeah which is nice look yeah I mean I don't know how people feel about it I'm not making them put it in their mouth and there's no there's no fumes in the air so there's no like contact I have no moral issue with doing I don't have a moral issue with you doing it either objectively it's gross I don't but to me it's It's not that gross, so it's hard for me to...

[1472] Well, this is what's tricky.

[1473] When you're around it, it starts getting...

[1474] If I was doing someone's podcast...

[1475] If I was doing Brad Pitt's podcast...

[1476] Okay, when you do Brad Pitt's podcast...

[1477] Yeah, under our umbrella.

[1478] Yeah.

[1479] And he...

[1480] It's a very self -serving, but go ahead.

[1481] Of course.

[1482] Produced by Radwick Ridge.

[1483] No, produced by Armchair expert.

[1484] I got Brad Pitt, okay?

[1485] If he starts pulling out some dip, I am not going to be grossed out because I'm so used to you doing that and I don't think you're gross.

[1486] Oh, he's from Missouri.

[1487] He's from Michigan.

[1488] Yeah, I would just be like, oh, that's what boys in my life do, I guess.

[1489] Yeah, this is what white boys do.

[1490] But I, if I had no experience with, like, if I'm trying to think of what someone would do that would gross me out.

[1491] Shoot dope.

[1492] Okay, that wouldn't gross me out.

[1493] That would be like, although that is, that is kind of the reaction he had.

[1494] He did, yes.

[1495] Scared.

[1496] Mm -hmm.

[1497] Yeah, concerned for me. I think, too, now I'm really guessing too much about, I don't know what this guy was thinking.

[1498] But I also think cognitive dissonance, like this is an educated guy who's wealthy.

[1499] This is not what those people do.

[1500] Yeah.

[1501] Which is part of why I like, I know.

[1502] It's one of my justifications why I continue to do it is like.

[1503] Keeps you real.

[1504] Well, sure.

[1505] Keeps me grounded.

[1506] No, that's, I mean, I really get that.

[1507] It's part of it.

[1508] I've got to be honest.

[1509] It's like, yeah, you're right.

[1510] This is not what people like me, quote, do.

[1511] And that's kind of why.

[1512] It's like when I stood in line for that sweatshirt.

[1513] Yes.

[1514] this is me in my cockles this is me yeah I gotta tell you I had some anxiety before we interviewed him you did I did because you thought he was gonna just read you right I thought well let's put it this way I as open as I am I would never do this thing they do on the Howard Stern show where it's like they bring the guys in from the back from the stable of writers and stuff and they hook them up to a polygraph I wouldn't put myself in that situation yeah you know there's things I've done that were illegal when I was an addict that I you know I'm not I tell you at a dinner party but I'm not trying to you know what I'm saying you can have some pieces yeah so I would never get hooked up to a polygraph on this show and let someone just open fire on me I just wouldn't do it and then similarly I thought you know if this guy at any point wants to start grilling me about something I do think he knows enough of the clues that he could be real time assessing yes which and then became its own challenge because I'm really cocky and arrogant in that I don't think I can get out maneuvered in that kind of situation.

[1515] Weirdly, I was afraid he was going to do this to me and I ended up kind of doing it to him.

[1516] Yeah.

[1517] And I love this.

[1518] There's the podcast.

[1519] There's the show we're making and it's on this topic and there's fun info.

[1520] But anytime something reels happening in the room that is an added layer or component, I'm always awake.

[1521] I like that.

[1522] It's happened in here a handful of times.

[1523] But for you, that was you delving into his past.

[1524] Yes.

[1525] Who he felt so deceived by, why dedicate your life to figuring out, if you look at the title of his books, as many of them are about how to not get deceived as there are how to deceive virtually, how to manipulate people in your life to do what you want them to do.

[1526] Regardless, to have dedicated one's life to both of those requires a explanation for me. When you asked it, it's not new.

[1527] We ask everyone who comes on this show that.

[1528] It was a normal question for us.

[1529] But it did turn a little because he obviously wasn't expecting that question.

[1530] And also maybe in what seems odd, but has never thought about that question.

[1531] And is very smart enough to recognize I should have an answer for that.

[1532] Yeah.

[1533] So like that was the other component is like full awareness.

[1534] in the moment, boy, if I don't give an answer to this, I'm going to maybe lose credibility or something.

[1535] So you're right.

[1536] It's a question I ask everybody.

[1537] So I wasn't.

[1538] You weren't trying to trick him or something.

[1539] No, I wasn't like uniquely challenging him.

[1540] It's our standard question.

[1541] Yet once it was underway, it felt like I was interrogating him or something.

[1542] Yeah, it did.

[1543] Yes.

[1544] So I don't know.

[1545] It was just interesting and I enjoyed it.

[1546] I hope he did.

[1547] It was an awesome conversation.

[1548] Yeah, it was.

[1549] Well, then the other fun thing that happened, so we're getting into it, is that I had asked you to stop asking a question.

[1550] We cut all that.

[1551] Oh, you did.

[1552] Yeah, we can talk about it, though.

[1553] Well, I was just going to say, we sat down and we just launched into all this stuff, and then I got a little concern that we were jumping to the end of where I hoped we'd get to.

[1554] So I asked you to stop asking a question, kind of abruptly.

[1555] I was like, oh, can you?

[1556] I said, oh, can I say one more thing?

[1557] And then you said, you said, actually, no, because I want to frame this and then ask.

[1558] And then so I did that.

[1559] And then I came back to you when I thought I had set everything up enough for that to happen.

[1560] And then I said, do you want to answer your question?

[1561] You're like, no, it doesn't make any sense anymore, which I'm sure in a courtroom you were right.

[1562] Yeah.

[1563] Like, you were probably right.

[1564] Because it actually wasn't a question.

[1565] It was a further coloring of the topic that I shut down.

[1566] Well, no, just that I don't want to say you shut it down, but it would have made no sense to bring it back up and then just like, okay, now moving on again.

[1567] Yes.

[1568] And I'll take responsibility.

[1569] I would have felt very stupid.

[1570] If you brought it back up.

[1571] Yes.

[1572] Okay, right, right, right.

[1573] The point is I only lay out any of that or behind the scenes enough to say that I said, okay, but I know you so well.

[1574] Yeah.

[1575] I know you, I respond to your, I forget the terms, but they talk about how people communicate chemically yeah right like we know each other so well molecularly yes like I don't think I need to look at you I think your I mean literally I don't know any of this but I think your body releases smells that I smell and know you know like when animals are scared they let off it whatever it was 10 minutes later I knew I was upset you were upset yeah and so I checked back in with you're like are you sure you're not upset I want to make sure I you know really my goal was to apologize for whatever if you were upset and I could have apologized and made it better.

[1576] That was my thing.

[1577] And you go, no, rightly so.

[1578] You're like, I don't want to fucking derail.

[1579] Yes, we don't need to do this right now.

[1580] Yes, we don't need to do this right now.

[1581] And I don't need to derail this.

[1582] So you just said like, no, no, everything's fine.

[1583] And I didn't believe you, but I know you so well.

[1584] But then he goes, he just blasted out like three of the things that would be in his book.

[1585] Yeah, arms crud.

[1586] I mean, they were all right.

[1587] They're generic.

[1588] But at the same time any other guests really wouldn't have is my point i wonder though i mean i think part of what's awesome about this space in this room and this show is there is a lot happening between us that's very obvious to the guest like whether it's like affection whether it's like resentment whatever's happening between us is apparent like it's out there whether we're trying to conceal it or not there's no place hide in this room.

[1589] Yeah, I think people know.

[1590] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1591] So, yeah, he knew, but it was also obvious you asked a million times what was wrong and I was like, it's fine.

[1592] Move on, move on.

[1593] Yeah.

[1594] We also sub -tweet each other, which is great.

[1595] What's that meaning?

[1596] I always use this term and I don't think it's as popular or ubiquitous as I think it is.

[1597] But sub -tweeting would be like, you know, fuck, I hate using this example but it'll make the most sense, like Will Smacks Chris Rock that day.

[1598] And you, you then tweet.

[1599] I know whenever I feel emasculated, I just reach out and blah, blah, blah.

[1600] So you don't say you're referencing Will.

[1601] You don't tag Will.

[1602] You don't tag Chris Rock.

[1603] But we all know you're talking about a specific person.

[1604] Right?

[1605] So we sub -tweet each other all the time when we have experts on it.

[1606] It's like any long -term fight we've been having or debate, if they say something that can.

[1607] Yes.

[1608] And we'll even ask them a question that will set up.

[1609] that the other person was wrong.

[1610] So they can hear from a third party.

[1611] Oh my God.

[1612] So we're both really guilty.

[1613] Yeah, yeah.

[1614] We both do that, I think.

[1615] Or at least I know I do it.

[1616] I do it.

[1617] I also know when you're doing it and you know when I'm doing it.

[1618] That's right.

[1619] And I have to imagine arm sherry also know when we're doing it.

[1620] Like the, I don't think the guest knows, but I definitely.

[1621] Armcheries know us well enough and they know the last four and a half years.

[1622] And they know too.

[1623] Yeah.

[1624] Yeah.

[1625] I mean, of course, I can always think of the ones you did to me, less the ones I did to you, but One was like we had, oh, I think it was Josh Brolin on maybe, and he was talking about deciding people's intentions.

[1626] And then you said something like, well, I just want to say, and you're talking to him, right?

[1627] You're talking to Josh.

[1628] And you're like, you might be wrong.

[1629] It's not fair.

[1630] It's not fair to those people, right?

[1631] And that was clearly a comment to me. Yes, of course.

[1632] And I do think that armcherrys get that.

[1633] I think they pick up on that.

[1634] Yeah, yeah, I think so.

[1635] Okay, to be fair, I was talking about you for sure.

[1636] Yes.

[1637] But it wasn't like, I was like, where can I find a spot?

[1638] It just.

[1639] I don't think it was calculated.

[1640] No, at all.

[1641] It was sitting right there on a platter.

[1642] Well, I felt it.

[1643] I was like, ugh, these men, it's so unfair.

[1644] Yes.

[1645] And I often hear an expert describing a personality type.

[1646] And I go, that's Monica.

[1647] Right?

[1648] It's same thing.

[1649] It's right there on a platter.

[1650] So then I ask a follow -up question that's manipulative that you will hear.

[1651] Yeah.

[1652] Right?

[1653] So all that to say, I wish you were better.

[1654] Well, fuck it.

[1655] I just am acknowledging that we do it.

[1656] I certainly do it.

[1657] And just putting it out there, sometimes we're not doing that.

[1658] So don't think that everything that comes out of our mouths is that, because that will get very not accurate.

[1659] The point is, I don't think the guest picks up on that.

[1660] Almost ever knows.

[1661] But this was pretty overt.

[1662] And then so I think in general, I'm fine.

[1663] with my character defects or I'm at peace with them but I did have the outside thought of like what if he what if he knows something I don't know yeah am I ready to hear that in this interview right you know am I in the right state of mind to hear him point out something that I'm unaware of because you got I got to be in the right state of mind like if I avail myself to a sponsor an AA or a fellow member of AA that's kind of the contract we we enter into if I call you I'm basically asking you're allowed to observe me and see what you've noticed and what I might be doing.

[1664] But if we haven't made that kind of little contract, I'm not sure how welcome I am.

[1665] Yeah, that's normal.

[1666] Well, I can tell you how fucking welcome.

[1667] When I see it in comments, I hate it.

[1668] I'm like, you don't know me. I haven't asked you.

[1669] Yes.

[1670] Yeah.

[1671] So I thought it could be a situation where he might.

[1672] I'm going to all of a sudden be like having a deal with something.

[1673] Yeah.

[1674] I found it good.

[1675] I found it jousty.

[1676] It was.

[1677] It's a very fun interview.

[1678] Anyway, are there long -term studies on caviar?

[1679] Six surprising health benefits of caviar.

[1680] Is this written by the Russian caviar industry?

[1681] No. Healthline .com.

[1682] Most trusted source.

[1683] Number one, a nutritional powerhouse.

[1684] Even when served in small amounts, caviar boosts and impressive nutritional profile.

[1685] Omega -3s, baby.

[1686] Only 75 calories.

[1687] 7 grams of protein, 5 grams fat, 1 gram carb, 236 % of your daily value of B12.

[1688] Oh, fuck me. Yeah, 34 % of daily value of selenium, 19 % iron, 18 % sodium.

[1689] Wow.

[1690] Carvier is very expensive, right?

[1691] Yeah.

[1692] I've never purchased it.

[1693] It is expensive.

[1694] But should I start purchasing?

[1695] seen it for a superfood?

[1696] Should I put in my smoothies?

[1697] I don't think you'll hate it because it just tastes salty.

[1698] There's no fish smell?

[1699] No. It's got a nice texture too.

[1700] Oh yeah, like a tepia pudding.

[1701] No, I think that's what the part you won't love about it.

[1702] Like pops.

[1703] Oh.

[1704] And then not a fish smell.

[1705] No, no. Both those fancy places in Chicago I went to have like two caviar things on their taste of menu.

[1706] I did have it one time at French laundry and it's called Diamonds and Pearls.

[1707] It's a very famous dish Their menu changes daily, but the one thing that's, what, they might have a couple, but one that stays around always is diamonds and pearls.

[1708] And it's oysters and caviar, and I'm like, well, I hate both those.

[1709] Let's see how this goes.

[1710] And you love it.

[1711] And I was like, oh, my God, I can eat 12 of those.

[1712] I love both of those things.

[1713] If you could prepare shoelaces, like the right chef prepares shoelaces, you're going to eat all of them.

[1714] Okay.

[1715] Number two, may reduce signs of skin aging.

[1716] Okay, because rich and omega -3s.

[1717] Okay.

[1718] Something about collagen.

[1719] Sure.

[1720] Three, may improve brain and mental health.

[1721] I'm going to guess because of the omegas.

[1722] May promote heart health.

[1723] Omega three.

[1724] I mean, it is.

[1725] It's really just a study.

[1726] It's basically just pure omega's.

[1727] So, oh, my God, may improve male fertility.

[1728] Oh, even with a vasectomy?

[1729] May support your immune system.

[1730] May is a comforting word.

[1731] If you're ever going to write a sentence that says may does something, Don't even write it.

[1732] Well, they needed eight.

[1733] Skin, brain, heart, immune.

[1734] Those are.

[1735] These are great.

[1736] Cornerstones of hell.

[1737] It's great for you.

[1738] Eat more caviar.

[1739] Non -Russian caviar.

[1740] Yeah, exactly.

[1741] Okay.

[1742] Dunning Kruger effect comes up here.

[1743] I use it with a frequency that could only make me guilty of the Dunning Krueger effect.

[1744] Well, that's what I'm here for.

[1745] Okay.

[1746] Just so we have a little backstory, you know?

[1747] Yeah.

[1748] Cognitive bias were by people with limited knowledge.

[1749] or competence in a given intellectual or social domain greatly overestimate their own knowledge or competence in that domain relative to objective criteria or to the performance of their peers or of people in general.

[1750] Now, it's named after psychologist David Dunning and Justin Krueger.

[1751] That kind of backfired, by the way, because now I associate Dunning Kruger with blowhards talking out of their ass.

[1752] Yeah.

[1753] And now their names are that.

[1754] I think they should have given it, like, names of their annoying brothers.

[1755] Yeah, something.

[1756] Mm -hmm.

[1757] The effect is explained by the fact that the metacognitive ability to recognize deficiencies and one's own knowledge or competence requires that one possesses at least a minimum level of the same kind of knowledge or competence, which dot, dot, dot, I don't have Britannica .com subscription.

[1758] Oh, okay.

[1759] Well, now you've spoken on it with limited knowledge.

[1760] No. So you now, too, are not limited knowledge.

[1761] Guilty?

[1762] Like a whole paragraph.

[1763] It's limited.

[1764] There was more.

[1765] Okay, fine.

[1766] I'll get to a different.

[1767] You know what?

[1768] You were hoisted by your own partard.

[1769] Sometimes, I was.

[1770] And sometimes you have to decide whether you're going to do half of a trusted brand.

[1771] Yeah.

[1772] Or all of a non -trusted brand, you know?

[1773] I think you chose right.

[1774] I try to mix a match.

[1775] I think that was a sufficient.

[1776] You're right.

[1777] It is limited because there's a lot on Wikipedia about it.

[1778] Yeah.

[1779] But there's also criticisms and alternatives on here.

[1780] Okay.

[1781] I don't want to know those because I want to keep using it with a lackluster understanding of it which then proves it.

[1782] So I guess I do, in using it, I'm proving it.

[1783] Yep.

[1784] What is comical and very dunning -crury about it is I almost primarily use it when talking to psychologists.

[1785] So they really, they're the person in the room that knows a lot more about it than me and I'm the one speaking on it.

[1786] Although in a future episode, you bring it up and the psychologist did not know.

[1787] That's true.

[1788] And she suffered from fluency.

[1789] flaw or some other bias fluency bias that's right um okay you said is it a Seinfeld thing okay then to end a conversation say say okay then but you know how the the episodes it might have evolved by the way I don't know if they they stayed this way but the episode start with jerry's stand up yeah I want to say he has a little routine oh about when you say okay then and they don't take the bait.

[1790] They just motor right on.

[1791] Well, I typed it in a few ways and I didn't, couldn't find it.

[1792] I might have imagined it.

[1793] Rob, I'm sure's looking.

[1794] But also, there's this interesting Okay, then, scene from Fargo that I'll play.

[1795] It's with Francis.

[1796] Season two, season two.

[1797] Oh, good show.

[1798] He just got rid of a body.

[1799] Okay, then.

[1800] Noreen.

[1801] Ed's leaving.

[1802] Okay, then.

[1803] Oh, hey.

[1804] May as well take these with you.

[1805] Bullie Hendricks paid, but never picked them up.

[1806] Chaps.

[1807] Wasted meats a crime.

[1808] There should be.

[1809] Okay, then.

[1810] Okay, then.

[1811] Okay, then.

[1812] That was cute.

[1813] Yeah.

[1814] Anyhow, okay, that's that, and you're going on a big vacation.

[1815] Hog, hog, hog, hog, big brown.

[1816] What will we be coming to you live from Big Brown?

[1817] drop the next few weeks.

[1818] I'm very excited for that.

[1819] And you're going to a Spaniel?

[1820] Yes, in a few weeks.

[1821] Okay, well, we'll cross that bridge over the pond when we come to it.

[1822] That's right.

[1823] All right, I love you.

[1824] I love you.

[1825] Subtweet you later.

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