Krept: From Rapper To Building A £17.5 Million Baby Business!

[0] Someone grabbed my chain and then I just remember seeing Lash.

[1] A BBC live music event was ended early last night.

[2] The rapper crept was attacked backstage.

[3] This was a millimet deeper and it would have been a different scenario.

[4] He's a rapper and has collaborated with the lights of Teddy One and Stormzy.

[5] And then the stepdad was killed.

[6] Carl ran out of the room trying to fight them.

[7] Two more gunshots.

[8] Everything's silent.

[9] We can have a go and retaliate or we take this music thing seriously.

[10] actually try to make it out of where we're coming from.

[11] The next thing we put out, went viral.

[12] Skeptor reached out and said, yo, we're going to bring you guys on tour.

[13] It was such a life -changing moment for us.

[14] We started doing radio, TV, and we started branching out.

[15] Nala's baby, full of natural goodness.

[16] You would never put a rapper launching a baby skincare line in the same sentence.

[17] You should always feel uncomfortable, almost like you shouldn't be here.

[18] And that's the growth room, man. You can't be afraid of that.

[19] Do you know what the company's valued at?

[20] 17 and a half.

[21] What do you think Blaine would think an island of baby?

[22] Cadet whose real name was Blaine Johnson has died.

[23] He was on the brink of doing something great.

[24] What's on your mind?

[25] We've got this complex.

[26] Like I'm not going to cry.

[27] Like it makes you feel like less of a man or something.

[28] I swear that it scares me. So without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett and this is the diary of a CEO.

[29] hope nobody's listening.

[30] But if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

[31] First of all, thank you for being here.

[32] I think, got to be honest, I think you're one of the smartest -looking guests I've had sit in the chair.

[33] I'm very jealous of your outfit today.

[34] Thank you, man. It's sick.

[35] And the design is a friend of mine who I met in Manchester a couple of months back.

[36] But where I wanted to start with you is back in South London, back in Croydon.

[37] I want you to, if you can give me the context in which you were you were raised and when I say context I mean like what were those things in your environment at an early age that ultimately shaped who you were and left those little kind of foot those fingerprints on on your personality and character to be honest like when I was young and when I was in school like all I knew and all my friendships knew were you know gangs and you know that kind of life style, that's all that we saw, like, you know, everybody that I'll go to school with or, you know, outside of school, that was, that's what it was.

[38] And, you know, we got caught up in a load of nonsense growing up, but I was one of those people that always saw the bigger picture and I always thought, I don't want to end up going to jail and I don't want to end up dying because that's what I saw like I've lost so much friends due to you know coming from where we're coming from and like seeing friends that I've I've grown up with pass away to violence or crimes or you know friends I've got loads of friends that are in jail for life and some for even things they didn't even do so I always used to be like you know when when my friends was doing this or doing that I'd always be like you know I'm going to try and do this and try and do that and because I do not want to end up in jail or dying like that was you know that's what we was used to like and it's sad because it's like it felt so normal like the first time you know I was like 13 and hearing gunshots outside my house and coming out and someone's on the floor dead and I'm a 13 year old young boy and it was like it was normal it wasn't even like something that seemed abnormal at the time it just felt like this is how it is when you live where you live or where you're from where you're from and that's what it was do you know what I mean and I feel like I've always always had my eye on being more than that like all the time so when you know my friends was getting involved in certain things I was like no I'm gonna I'm gonna finish college I want to go to university and I'm going to try my best to keep myself, you know, on a positive path.

[39] Like, and I always fought this all the time.

[40] And I always said, yeah, I'm not going to, I'm not going to fall into this trap because I'm seeing, you know, my friends falling into, I'm seeing my friends going to jail.

[41] I'm seeing my friends die.

[42] And I'm like, like, when is it?

[43] And it doesn't end.

[44] It doesn't stop.

[45] You know, new issues happen.

[46] Now, you know, you've got a problem with these people because of this or, like, and it just, it's a constant cycle.

[47] And I feel like I didn't want to get trapped in that cycle.

[48] What was your family unit like?

[49] My mum and dad wasn't together.

[50] My father went to jail for a lot of my childhood.

[51] And, you know, so he wasn't around for a lot of the important moments in my life and that age where I feel like you probably need, you know, a father figure there.

[52] he wasn't because he was in jail and again that's what I was seeing and that was what was a norm to me growing up my mum was single and she was just doing her best to look after me and my brother and I feel like she's done an incredible job but there was still I'll never forget there was a moment where something happened and police came to my house and I'd never forget my mum said I failed as a mum and I can't explain how that made me feel and I was like there's no way on earth that I'm going to let those words even become a reality so I remember from there I was like I'm going to make this woman proud like if it's my the last thing I do and that was a really really big you know motivational moment for me why did that matter so much to you because my mum did everything she could you know she tried her best as a single mom she tried her best she always you know wanted the best for me and wanting the best for my brother and you know being a single mom knowing that there's bills and knowing that she was stressed and this that and the fourth like I know she wanted the best for me and me feeling like you know I haven't even tried to appreciate or repay her for that and her feeling like a failure even though she done her absolute best so that resonated with me and it really hit me when she said that and yeah from I remember from then like the motivation I had, I was like, I'm going to, because I didn't even want to stay in uni or I didn't want to, like, I was thinking, that's long, I don't want, and I was like, no, I'm going to go all the way and I'm going to graduate, I'm going to make her run and say, my son's got a degree, I'm going to do that, and I'm going to do my music, and I'm going to be successful on that, and she's going to be proud.

[53] I spoke it and knew it's going to happen because I was so determined from, from there to make it happen.

[54] So, yeah.

[55] Often when you're from an environment where people are being tempted to choose a nefarious life.

[56] So when they're being tempted to choose a slightly, maybe it's a criminal lifestyle or something because they don't have the same level of opportunities in that environment.

[57] So often people look back and they can almost see how it could have gone another way for them, how they could have been tempted in that other path because there's no doubt temptation to choose another path would have been present in that environment.

[58] When you look back on those times, Can you see how things could have gone another way?

[59] 100%.

[60] Like, there was, you know, there was one specific moment that I remember when it was when Conan had a situation where his stepdad was killed and his mother was shot.

[61] Can you tell me about that incident?

[62] Yes.

[63] You read about that in a song.

[64] Yes, a song called My Story, where, Conan was I think was coming back from radio and Conan um when Conan got back basically there was people waiting for him and he was walking to his door and he had his key in his hand and he's always been a paranoid person so he's always like ready to put his key in and because like he was always alert and he was just an alert person.

[65] He's always alert on point.

[66] And if this was probably anybody else, they probably would have died.

[67] But he was just by his door and then he heard people running behind.

[68] And he just knew straight away.

[69] He didn't look back.

[70] He just put his key in the door, turn it, open it, closed it.

[71] And then that's when, you know, he realized like, okay, someone is definitely here to try it and kill me. And they've got in the house and they've basically when they're holding the door upstairs they've shot through the door and one of the bullets, you know, hit Conan's mum and then Conan's stepdad at the time ended up wrestling with them and then he ended up getting shot and dying and then the guys left.

[72] but you know it was that situation that happened and as you can imagine what that what effect or you know that would have had on him and everybody around him so I remember we were sitting in a car and our friends was like look we can either go and do this and retaliate or whatever it was whatever it was and and I remember there was that moment of, oh, we take this music thing seriously and, you know, don't throw everything away right now and actually try to make it out of where, you know, we're coming from.

[73] And there was that moment of like, we're going to do the music, we're going to focus and put our all into this and, you know, see what happens.

[74] And that was like a moment where that could have been.

[75] easily gone a completely different way like we literally had nothing I remember we had an argument over the last bit of chicken and chips because that's the only money we had like we had nothing and Conan was homeless like it was like probably one of the worst periods of our lives and definitely Conan's for sure and I feel like from there we done Otis, which was like a cover of Jay -Z and Kanye's song.

[76] And that song went viral.

[77] And it was like, it was the perfect time for something like that to happen.

[78] Because we could have done that, it not done what we've, you know, not done anything.

[79] And then we could have just, you know, somehow slipped back into or whatever.

[80] but it was literally from that moment the next thing we put out bearing in mind we've been putting up music you know and we've never had a moment like that before and the next thing we put out after this disaster has just happened the next thing we put out went viral and everything changed from there literally you know we put this out and then from there we ended up you know sceptor reached out and said yo we want to bring you guys on tour and you know for any musician when you go on tour and do live music it's like for the first time it makes you feel like you're really a musician like i'm really doing this for real and that was really like a special moment for us that he's asked us to come on tour during this period we was we were so new as artists skepta didn't you know we would have just done the tour for free he didn't even he didn't even just have us on the tour supporting he paid us like he paid us per show like and when i mean we were so we was like we're gonna get paid to come on tour with you on a tour that is already sold out he didn't need us there and he had us on on the tour and paid us as well and it was just like such a life -changing moment for us like you know i i just feel like the that the stars aligned or something but you know being in that moment where you're like about to throw everything away to then you're on stage live with thousands of people in front of like from that transition to that in in you know you couldn't make that up like that was just it was just a crazy time and I feel like yeah man I feel like we obviously made you know the right decision and And yeah, we've never looked back since, man. The person that carried out that attack, did you ever find out why they did it?

[81] And did they get caught?

[82] It's weird because we don't actually.

[83] We'll never know who'd done it because...

[84] You'll never know who done it?

[85] No, because there was two people there.

[86] Oh, right.

[87] And one person got arrested for it, but at the end of the day you still don't know who's done it and they got sentenced yeah they got sentenced I think they got found with the weapon or something like that but yeah there was too so we don't actually know who's who's done it up until today we know a lot about mental health these days so more of a conversation now but how does you know You'll by his side.

[88] How does Conan deal with that?

[89] Both of his parents being shot, one of them dying?

[90] Conan is like, it's one of those ones where I can't even explain on his behalf because it's not even something I can even comprehend being in that situation.

[91] What I know we have done is, you know, stayed doing music and doing what we love and actually growing in that world and actually, you know, becoming someone from doing what we love and, you know, the success that it's brought and all of, you know, the great things that have happened and, you know, us just growing and growing and growing.

[92] I feel like that has been a major distraction from the harsh reality of what's happened in his life, do you know what I mean?

[93] And I feel like if we didn't, you know, have the success we had.

[94] I don't know what would have happened.

[95] It's interesting because I'm not sure if success heals.

[96] Like, you use the word distraction.

[97] It's actually the word that I would naturally use.

[98] It kind of distracts you from the pain.

[99] And then what you tend to see when I sit here with a lot of people is they still have to at some point address that pain.

[100] Address that pain.

[101] Or it'll turn into alcohol or other things, you know.

[102] And we see that a lot with musicians especially, you know.

[103] So that's kind of what.

[104] what I'm getting to, you've been through the same, you've been through the same hurt and you've lost people in your life as well, so you can kind of speak to that as opposed to speaking to Conan's situation.

[105] But how, especially in like, in that culture, in like the black culture and especially black men, they don't talk about mental health.

[106] Really.

[107] Especially 10 years ago, no fucking chance.

[108] No, definitely not.

[109] It's like we've got this, I don't know, complex or we've got this thing where we're like, oh, we're all right.

[110] Like, I can get through it.

[111] Like, I'm not meant to cry.

[112] and I don't know why or how or why we've been conditioned in this way but we have and we feel like you know we don't need to talk to anybody about feeling down like it makes you feel like less of a man or something I'm not sure what it is but you know it's definitely something that's important to me because like one of my best friends committed suicide and I have no idea why up until today.

[113] So talking about Nash.

[114] Nash, yeah.

[115] And I don't know why.

[116] Like, the last time I was with him, we were celebrating that we just finished the shop.

[117] Like, bro, we did it.

[118] And he was like, I can't believe we've done it.

[119] We've done it.

[120] And he was so happy.

[121] And then he was showing me like, look at the emails I'm getting from people like, that are showing interesting.

[122] He was so excited about it.

[123] But then a few days later, He jumped in front of a train.

[124] Like, what was, what did I miss?

[125] I was with him, spoke to him all the time.

[126] Like, and it was just, it was like, and we're like this.

[127] And he didn't not once express or make me feel that he was depressed or going through something mentally.

[128] Like I didn't know and I'm with him every day.

[129] I didn't see it.

[130] So that's how I know.

[131] how important it is for us as men and black men to really not hide and cover in our feelings and our emotions and there's nothing wrong with talking about it or telling someone or going to therapy like there's nothing wrong with that I feel like I don't know why I don't know why but that situation made me realise how bad it is because I genuinely didn't see anything wrong with him like we're speaking all the time he's updating me look what this has just happened I'm going here I'm going there I'm doing this like oh this is just coming to the shop got this order like we're like you know and then we celebrated the fact that we finished the shop and it was built so for context here this is when you launched creps and cones yes so before launching crept and cones Nash was the person that was going to run it and manage the store.

[132] For anybody that doesn't know, so I kind of heard this story that someone, a fan had tweeted you guys one day about how funny it would be or something that if you had been a restaurant called Kreps and Cones.

[133] Yeah, um, you trademarked it or?

[134] Yeah, no, I basically, I, I can't remember.

[135] I had a conversation with someone one time in it and like, I remember the name came into my head And then I just tweeted one time.

[136] Right.

[137] I tweeted in 2014, I said, one day, we're going to have a restaurant called Creps and Cones.

[138] And I just thought it was a sick idea, sick name, sick playoff of the name.

[139] But in 2014, I never had anything.

[140] So it was a really big, just putting it out there, by the way, one day.

[141] I don't know if this ever going to happen because, you know, I'm not in a position to make this happen.

[142] But I feel like I will be one day.

[143] and I just put out the tweet and then I saw people like oh that'll be sick that'd be sick loads of retweets oh that'll be sick and then it was like okay one day like we'll revisit that conversation and then did you trademark it I didn't you know I didn't no one did luckily we trademarked it a bit later down but we didn't even I don't think I could afford to trademark it at the time like I don't even think I could have afforded to at that time when I tweeted it but I remember speaking to Nash about it and saying, yeah, one day, like, you know, this is what we need to do this one day.

[144] And he was like, that'd be sick, that'd be sick.

[145] But he was working in property and he was doing really well doing what he was doing.

[146] And I remember he called me and he was like, I want to, you know, it's time for change, man. I want to do something else.

[147] What about the idea that you were saying?

[148] The Creps and Cones thing.

[149] And I was like, yeah let's do it and this was at a time when I could do it and you know and Conan was like yeah let's like he he already knew it was something that we wanted to do you know what I mean so it was just like who are we going to get to lead this for us because obviously we're musicians we need someone that you know and when Nash broke down you know everything that he had been research and learned and you know people that he was going and getting bored to be a part of it and this down and the fourth it was just like, this makes sense, let's do it.

[150] And there's no better person to do it with than one of our best friends, do you know what I mean?

[151] And so we decided, yeah, we're going to do it.

[152] And, yeah, that was a nightmare in itself.

[153] Like, you know, just building a shop, like having builders going missing or, you know, people trying to be middlemen, skimming off the top and this, down the fourth.

[154] and taking advantage of you because you're musicians as well right so we probably ended up spending triple what we should have spent on building it and it took like a year like when i mean me and nash was probably sleeping in that shop there was days we had we did sleep in the shop because we you know we had to deliveries and the next day and you know we need to get this done and you know we need to do that or do this and and then we didn't trust any builders we didn't trust anyone so we had to be there while they was doing it to make sure they did that doing it in the way that we told them they're going to do it you know because we'd leave them they'll come back and then something's not done or it's like what have you been doing in the last week and it was and it was just it was a it was a probably just the worst like you know experience in terms of our intro into this business world I hated it like I was I'm not going to sit here and say like yeah it was great and it wasn't I hated it I put my back up and it was like okay I don't I know stepping into this world I'm not going to trust anyone And that really, that restaurant really changed me as a businessman, really changed me as a, as a, as a, the way I think and, you know, the way I approach things and in terms of like, before, if somebody would come to me and say, this is how much this cost to do this, I would probably be like, okay, sounds reasonable.

[155] Let's do it.

[156] Now I'm going to ask 10 other people, I get other people to ask another 10 other people and gauge if this makes sense.

[157] this is the right thing to do or not or I'm getting the best value for money before I wouldn't do that.

[158] And I do that with everything because I'm double -checking everything, every aspect.

[159] Is this the best kind of thing to do?

[160] Or is there a way I can do this in a better way for the same price?

[161] And it's just made me like that and I feel like it's turned me into a bit of a monster.

[162] Not a monster, but like I'm just really not the same person I was when I was making, you know, creps and cones.

[163] That's what adversity does, though.

[164] You build a callous and that becomes like self -defense, right?

[165] So more than anything, you want people to know that you're going to ask those 10 questions before they even come to you.

[166] Because then they won't try it.

[167] So you're playing self -defense, which is what I do as well.

[168] It's like, if you know I'm going to ask 10 questions, you're not going to give me the bad price the first time you come up.

[169] Because you know.

[170] Because you know.

[171] Every time I interrogate it, even if I end up saying yes, I'm going to ask you all kinds of shit.

[172] Yeah, I get that a lot now, like from people that I use and work with and they're like, oh, here he goes again, these tangents and asking 1001 questions, and I'm like, double -checking everything.

[173] But that comes from experience of being burnt, right?

[174] Of being burnt, yeah, and we felt like we was burnt really badly on crept and cones.

[175] Well, did it teach you about business?

[176] Because that was your first rule, like, foray into business.

[177] I mean, you had, like, the apparel brand before then.

[178] Yeah, we've done, we sold like a lot of merch, which done, which that was what actually helped us make the money to invest in our music.

[179] So, selling the, you know, the apparel, the merch and stuff like that.

[180] That's what we actually ended up getting money from to invest and do music videos and do that independently.

[181] But what's that, because that experience setting up a restaurant.

[182] I mean, I used to work in a restaurant when I was, my mum's restaurant when I was young.

[183] When I was so, 9, 10, 11, 12th, the chaos of customers and complaint.

[184] It's chaotic, like, that, because someone said to me, when I was like, I'm doing a restaurant, it was like, that's like the hardest business to get into.

[185] Why are you doing that?

[186] And I was like, really?

[187] like I didn't and then it became extremely harder for us because you know Nash was our guy and you know us having Nash getting a staff hiring everybody dealing with everything counts this that and the fourth and he was our guy leading this and then the week we're launching on the Saturday that earlier on in that week he commits suicide take me back to when you found out that that that had happened It was, I think it was like someone was coming to the shop to do something.

[188] I can't remember what it was, but I was due an update from Nash on something to do with the shop.

[189] And, um, didn't hear from the whole day.

[190] And I was like, this is odd because he would usually update us on everything.

[191] Like, oh, this has happened and he was so excited.

[192] I imagine this has happened.

[193] I found it.

[194] I found the sickest bartender.

[195] Oh my God.

[196] I found the sickest chef.

[197] Look, look.

[198] And it was just like loads.

[199] of that usually and we're a week away from you know launching we couldn't hear from him the whole day and then we was like where where is Nash like wow have you got through to him and we're asking like what's going on and you know we're messaging him trying to call him um and then um we were when we was at the restaurant um yeah got a call and someone was like snash and he's dead and i was like and he was like he jumped in front of a train like i'm even more confused because one of the last interactions we had we was walking across the road and i remember the bus was coming and he grabbed me and was like get out the road like what you doing Like, and he's like, and I remember I'm going, bro, don't do that.

[200] You scared me, like that kind of thing.

[201] Like, the bus was coming and he got, like, it was a moment of, oh, the bus was coming.

[202] Like, straight away, I was thinking about, I was like, that, there's no way he did that because I remember, like, why would he do that?

[203] How?

[204] What was wrong?

[205] Why didn't, we see it?

[206] Like, there was so much questions, like, and I just remember breaking down outside, Notting Hill, like, tears crying.

[207] I was like, there's no way.

[208] real and then we was going to just cancel the launch and then someone close to him was like he wouldn't want you to do that and we made a decision and said you know what we're just going to do it um we ended up having to find you know all the people the stuff people that he was contacting and try and get hold of them to keep this thing going for launch um and i managed to kind of get majority but not everybody or everything in line that he had prepared.

[209] We're grieving and we're launching and we don't know what we're doing.

[210] All at the same time.

[211] So, and the day it's launch day, you know, we've got the mayor of Croydon coming down, cutting the ribbon at the shop, and the whole time I'm thinking about Nash, like, Nash should be here.

[212] We're taking a picture, Nash should be in this picture.

[213] like when we open these doors I don't even know what's going on so people thought we was there because of PR and we're in a restaurant serving people doing this doing that no we wasn't I wasn't in there because of PR I was in there because I had to be in there had to work in there I had to like I was literally working in that restaurant you know cleaning toilets you name it I was doing everything you know and people thought it was a PR thing and was doing it for piano and it generally wasn't Like, I didn't know what I was doing.

[214] And it was scary, man. Like, it was like, we've literally just launched this massive thing.

[215] The queue is from here till the end of the road.

[216] Like, I've never seen anything like it.

[217] The queue was so long.

[218] And it's like, all these people are coming to eat here.

[219] Oh, my God.

[220] And, you know, we're going through this.

[221] And, you know, it was, it was like a bitter sweet, but mainly bitter because, you know, it was, you know, in a restaurant world, you're dealing with people's emotions.

[222] you're not dealing with your forget your emotions you've got to deal with the staff's emotions you've got to deal with the customer's emotions if your chef is not in a good mood today he's now going to burn this rice or he's going to do something maybe out of character or something and so I've got to rely on my chef's emotions every single day even if he's going through his own issues and it's not just one chef there's two three four then you know if you're your main bar person it's a Saturday busy night decides I'm not turning up for work because they've had an argument with their partner or whatever it is what do what do I do so this whole business is relying on other people's emotions and even the customers the customers come in they're not in a good mood they're already just I'm not in a good mood I want my food and I want it in five minutes and if I'll get it in seven minutes I'm kicking off but just because they're in that mood so you're constantly dealing with emotions and people's feelings every single day and for you to get that right every single day and everybody's emotions be great and everyone's in a great well you're still dealing with your own right and we're grieving do you know what I mean and I remember COVID happened and then it was like this gets even worse and our restaurant was you know, it was about coming in there vibes and experienced music, drinks, this, that and the fourth and that was what it was.

[223] So it wasn't like takeaways.

[224] Like, you know, everyone's like, yeah, just adapt and do takeaways.

[225] Yeah, that's fine.

[226] But our whole business was built on vibes and we did like Sunday events and we did like it was really an in -person.

[227] That's what we created.

[228] But the restaurant done so well, it managed to, you know, survive throughout the COVID stuff.

[229] but then we was not going to reopen because of the stress and what it was doing to us mentally.

[230] I didn't care about the money.

[231] You know, people are sitting on a gold mine if you get this right, you just get it right and, you know, you can, and I was like, I hear you, sounds great, I can't deal with it.

[232] Like it's too much stress.

[233] Like I was in there every day, I was losing weight.

[234] I was drained, tired.

[235] You know, I remember a guy came in and stole everything because he pretended to be a friend of ours and the staff that was working there, or the cleaner, believed him and was like, yeah, your friend came in and took all the iPads and all the equipment.

[236] And I was like, what, what are you talking about?

[237] And then gone in there, there's nothing, like, they've taken all the stock, it's that, it's like, what is going on?

[238] Like, this is crazy, I can't do with this.

[239] And it was just like, I'm not, I don't care what potential this has.

[240] I'm not doing it.

[241] And then my friend, Bouncer introduced me to some guys and said, look, these are some really good guys.

[242] You know, they've got these successful restaurants.

[243] They've run it amazingly and this, that and the fourth.

[244] And, you know, they're interested in partnering up with you guys to just, you know, make this work because, you know, you clearly got something here.

[245] And these guys came and they said, look, we'll deal with that.

[246] We'll take away all the headache.

[247] Let's make it work, man. You know, we see this being big.

[248] We feel like we can franchise it.

[249] We feel like we can do this, that.

[250] And the fourth, I was like, cool, let's do it.

[251] Let's give it another shot.

[252] As long as, you know, I don't have to bear that, the brutal reality of, you know, running a business.

[253] Running a restaurant.

[254] Have you ever, have you ever, have you ever, like, truly taken time to, because you use the word grief, we were grieving, what does that actually look like?

[255] when you say we were grieving.

[256] Because from what I'm guessing it and from my assumption of hearing this story, it seems like your version of grieving has always been to just kind of distract yourself.

[257] That is literally what I do, and I just feel like, and I don't know if I feel like I'm scared to stop and take everything in.

[258] So I've always just keep it.

[259] I'm just like, oh, that's happened, got to keep going.

[260] Because if I stop, and I don't know if that's a recipe for this, disaster or not.

[261] I'm still waiting to find out.

[262] I don't know.

[263] When Nash passed, it was like, I felt like, okay, I've got to make this work now.

[264] I've got to make Crips and Cones work because what?

[265] This, like, he'd done so much and we spoke about so much and, you know, this can't just die in vain.

[266] I feel like through the stress, that was one thing that made me just feel like, you know, I'm just going to, you know, I'm just going to do with it.

[267] I'm just going to do with it.

[268] it was only being forced by COVID to stop everything where I sat down and was like, do I want to start this shit again?

[269] Yeah, do I want to do this again?

[270] Do you know what I mean?

[271] But what kept me going was that.

[272] How are you feeling though?

[273] Because again, you keep yourself busy, you keep yourself distracted, but what's going on behind the mask, like underneath the hood?

[274] Everyone on the surface, you know, you're keeping up appearances to keep things, the ship moving, but how are you actually feeling like when you go home at night and when you do have those moments to yourself in the car, like how are you feeling?

[275] Believe it or not, I don't really have their moments.

[276] Like, I literally will be trying to do something until I'm tired and go to sleep, wake up and continue doing it again.

[277] Like, I don't feel like I've sat down and taken in everything that's happened.

[278] I don't think I have.

[279] And I swear it, it scares me. because I'm like, you're taking in so much, you're taking on so much and all I do is just, you know, keep working, I keep doing this, I keep doing that.

[280] But then I feel like, you know, I've got a lot of positive, you know, even, I don't even want anyone call it distractions because it's my life.

[281] So I'm not really being distracted because this is my life and this is what comes of it and this is what I'm doing and this is what I love doing.

[282] and I'm doing that but at the same time I'm dealing with a lot of grief like a lot of it and I haven't sat down and you know taken it all in and said like wow like how am I feeling because I'm always just trying to distract myself I guess but have you ever seen moments where that grief all that all the things you have been dealing with have caused your behaviour to change in an unpleasant way.

[283] That sometimes is one of the indicators that there's something underneath going on.

[284] Kind of like what you said about yourself, just, you know, when you're dealing with things, maybe the first thing that might go, I mean, some people start self -medicating with alcohol or whatever it might be.

[285] But then other people, you just see changes in their behavior.

[286] They might get a bit more angry.

[287] They might be a bit more cold, a bit more distant, a bit, you know what I mean?

[288] Have you ever seen any of those symptoms in yourself because of the grief?

[289] Yeah, I think cold.

[290] and I feel like I've dealt with so much I'm not dealing with this and I feel like so when something happens when I feel like I'm not dealing with it I'll just switch off are you thinking about like relationships or friendships whatever it is like it's not you know whether it's business whether it's making a decision that you might not have made before I felt like you know I might have been too nice here or been too nice there and just everything just made me feel like you know I've been through a lot more I'm not going to make you add to my stress or make this add to my stress so I'm really quick to just dismiss things or you know and I feel like I've become a little bit more cold to it because I'm just like I'm not going to deal with that I'm not going to it's almost like I'm protecting myself from feeling any more hurt or emotion.

[291] That's one strategy, isn't it?

[292] It's just a numb life.

[293] Yes, just like, I'm like, oh, negative vibes.

[294] Oh, this is, no, no, no, I'm just like this.

[295] And I feel like, you know, anything that I feel is a remotely negative.

[296] I'm just like, I'm out.

[297] That is probably a good short -term strategy in some situations, but over the long term, again, there's probably a cost, especially now that you're a father, right?

[298] Yeah.

[299] And one of the things you're trying to instill into your own child is probably like emotions and understanding your emotions and that it's okay to feel.

[300] And even go, the other place I, you know, I think people often say it is in their like romantic relationships when you're in, because men and women have a different way about them emotionally.

[301] Yeah, definitely.

[302] Typically, right?

[303] And so women are typically more in touch with their emotions and men are typically less in touch with their emotions.

[304] at least that's a broad sort of stereotype so sometimes can make it difficult when a man has like numbed himself to deal with stuff to then be able to emotionally connect with some a woman in the way that I'm talking about myself as well here that she she needs in order for you to speak the same language if you know what I mean yeah when your when your music career started taking off and all these crazy things start happening um in your own estimation what was the moment where you go that was nah everything really really changed when we dropped that um everything everything really, really changed.

[305] Otis was like a partial change.

[306] That was like the first lift -off.

[307] That was the first lift -off, but it was like, okay, what's next then?

[308] Yeah.

[309] And then the next big moment that we had was when we released our project called Young Kings.

[310] It was like our independent mixtape that we've done.

[311] And we got a Guinness World Record for it for being the highest independent charting album.

[312] 18th or something was in it?

[313] Yeah, it's like 18 years, like top 20.

[314] And it was like, And that was before streaming.

[315] Crazy.

[316] So that was just, you know, based on physical people buying it.

[317] And, you know, that was a real, like, whoa, moment for us.

[318] Because just before that, like, that period after Otis and before Young Kings, we was dealing with so much rejection, like, in terms of, not even just rejection, but, you know, people saying, oh, maybe you should put a girl in your group and you can be, like, end -dubs.

[319] And maybe that might work out for you.

[320] Or have you tried the Anton -Dec thing, like just being comedians?

[321] Or like it was bare of like just loads of people, you know, just giving us their projections of what they think we should be.

[322] And it just felt like they wanted to just chew us and spit us out kind of thing.

[323] And that's what it felt like.

[324] And, you know, we started then trying to make records to please what the radio wanted or, you know, what we felt would have got on TV.

[325] And then we sat down, I remember we sat down.

[326] down with Skeptor, big up Skeptor again.

[327] We sat down with Skeptor and we was like, yeah man, like the labels, man, they're not, they're trying to make us do this or they want this sign of sound.

[328] And I remember Skeptor said, just sat the Skeptor and jammed on this.

[329] He was in Skeptor's house and he was like, forget radio, forget TV, forget record labels, just do you.

[330] Do whatever it is that you want to do.

[331] There's independent pluggers that will plug you to radio.

[332] You don't need a label to get, do all of these things.

[333] Just do it yourself, put it out yourself, like, don't watch.

[334] And then they're going to come to you.

[335] I'll never forget, they said they're going to start coming to you.

[336] That was like a really important moment for us where we released our project and the music that we made was just like what we wanted to make.

[337] And, you know, we made Don't Waste My Time.

[338] And when we made Don't Waste My Time, it was like, it was purposely made to be like yeah we don't care what anyone has to say this is the music we want to make or we're going to say what we want to say on the song and you lot can't tell us anything i'll never forget when we put it out it just went crazy like the song started going everywhere performing it then you know the song ended up on creed the movie and like you know out to bellow's entrance song like it was a massive moment in creed and it was like we've done all of this with a song that we knew like we just thought this is this is what we want to do don't waste my time yeah that was don't waste my time and we was just like yeah like and then as skepta said everyone run into you now everyone was like oh my god want to sign record labels left rad said oh my god like throw a checkbook so yeah we want you we want you and then it just really was like it was like a really 360 and and then we started doing radio and you know tv and we started you know really branching out and people always like how do you you get into that but the reason why we how is because we always over deliver on little opportunities so we got a radio opportunity to do to to with apple to do a show that they've been doing with everyone so not everyone but like a select a few of artists everybody gets i think like six episodes um and then they move on to the next artist we ended up on episode 36 or something but it was because we was like we got this opportunity we know how everybody else has done these shows and what they're expecting, which is not expecting much from us but what if we make this a sick show what if we go out of our way bring other guests on have games, let's do fun things let's make this entertaining and actually make this show a good show and that's what we did so our show was nothing like what they expected we went above and beyond we had everybody coming on our show from americans to swiss french to you know the daves to a j trade like everybody's come on our show and we didn't have to do that we didn't get any extra to do it we just said we're gonna you know take this opportunity and make the most of it and from that you know they kept offering us more shows and more shows and more shows and then someone brought up the TV show the rap game and said like who'd you think and because of our radio show and like they was like no these guys would be great for this that opportunity came to us and someone recommended us to do the rap game and then we ended up in TV but that was all because we just put that extra bit of effort in a small opportunity and I feel like a lot of people you know don't even think like that Like some people think there's an opportunity here.

[339] This is what's expected of me. This is what I'm going to do.

[340] And I just don't live by that.

[341] And Conan, we don't live by that because I feel like if you over deliver and show what you actually can do in any situation, what can come from that is going to be a lot more.

[342] And it's always worked.

[343] It's so true that you can take a, when someone presents you with an opportunity, they're actually, it's almost like they're actually what you see there.

[344] Some people will see an opportunity.

[345] What you're actually, if you look behind the opportunity is a set of dominoes.

[346] Yes.

[347] That if you flick the first domino and you succeed in the first opportunity, there's this cascading set of opportunities that arise from it.

[348] But if you don't do a good job on that first domino hitting that first domino hard enough, you'll never start the sort of, you know, the knock -on effect.

[349] And I see that in everything that I've done, even becoming a dragon.

[350] Or, you know, because it's very easy when you become a dragon just to fall in, just to fall in line right just to sit there yeah but for me it was like here's an opportunity for me to really trying to express myself exactly and i noticed that when i watch it i'm just like i'm so glad he's just being him and saying like what he truly feels and not just like it's sick to seed you know what i'm saying because it's funny because i it wasn't i'm not saying i'm not saying it was a maybe it was a little bit conscious but my thinking is look i'm gonna i i can get kicked off the shirt any time.

[351] I might as well do it my way and have a bit of fun with it and at least leave a mark because the dragons in the past that I've like resonated less with are those that didn't show the full side of their personality and acted too much like a dragon and acting like a dragon to me is it is like sitting there and just like I'm out like I like your business that's good I'm going to invest so for me it's like well in reality my personality is a bit more diverse than that so exactly so people watching that all see like there's more than this old dragon thing and then, you know, other opportunities are going to...

[352] And they have.

[353] It's crazy.

[354] It's mad.

[355] And I swear I live by that.

[356] I genuinely do.

[357] I feel like don't see something for what it is on the surface and face value.

[358] There's a lot more that can come from this if you really just put in a bit more effort.

[359] Money.

[360] Money starts coming in for you in your life.

[361] People don't teach us anything about money.

[362] I mean, you did go to university for accounting, so I thought maybe you had a bit of an advantage there, but I don't even know if that's true.

[363] I just saw it in your CV and thought, oh, maybe that helped him.

[364] But money coming in, nobody teaches us what to do with it, especially in, I think, I've got to say, I think in the, in the, like, hip -hop community, there's a lot of narrative around, like, go and get the, go and get that car, or go get by this watch or go by this shiny thing.

[365] And I also think that sets us back as well.

[366] That's something that's, I've always, in more recent times when I've started to understand money and how it works and I've met billionaires and I've met people that literally their careers are just playing money games where they're.

[367] understand how to get this money and double it and they have all the and they also have access so they get the deals first if Airbnb is going to go into the stock market they'll get a 50 % discount it goes public the next day they sell the next day and they make double their money so it's access but it's information yeah and I just feel like you know we a lot of people have been deprived of that information so when you start getting money in your life what's your relationship I agree 100 % because there's things that I just found out about that I just didn't know existed and it's like why don't we know this you know but like I feel like it starts from school I feel like there should be a class in school that teaches you on this like just things like credit there was something at uni there's like you get some 750 pound overdraft thing or whatever and then I was like that was 750 pound yeah I'll do that yeah like oh great and then they're chasing what they're going to do they don't do anything And jail.

[368] And then, but like, it was just not knowing that this stuff actually affects you for years to come.

[369] And it's like, you don't know, just even paying fines or whatever it is.

[370] Like, there's things that, you know, this, if you don't do this or you don't pay this or it's going to affect you in the long run.

[371] Yeah.

[372] And I just never knew.

[373] And I'm someone that would, if I knew, I heard it once.

[374] That's it.

[375] I never going to.

[376] I never knew.

[377] My first car was a ranger of a sport.

[378] and it was they wouldn't let me put it in my name so i my business partner had because he had credit he put it in his name and then so i was driving around in this range of a sport living in a seven -bedroom house for the tennis court and my i honestly that they wouldn't let me 200 quid because i destroyed it when i went to uni i dropped out of uni straight away but i'd gone and i'd got these overdrafts i just blown it's like they set you up for it like i swear to it's like because i know so much people that's gone down that same university path of they offer you this big shiny 750 pounds that you don't have to pay back you do have to pay it back but you have to pay it back but like the way they coat it is in like it's a trap that we fall into because we don't know the consequence of if we don't do this then this happens and I just feel like it stems from us I feel like this being something that we should learn in school like you know before we start taking credit out and start doing things that affect our credit we should be learning about it But there's nothing that, you know, really teaches you that in school.

[379] And, you know, all my peers or my friends and none of us knew, nothing about credit.

[380] And I just think, why is it like so hidden or why is it not really projected?

[381] Is it a parent's role to tell them about credit?

[382] And, you know, I feel like now it is because it's probably become a lot more of a thing nowadays.

[383] But, yeah, and just things like, you know, when you end up in this world of business and, you know, there's things that you find out about, you know, like EIS, S -E -I -S, and stuff like that.

[384] And I just, I just couldn't believe this stuff existed.

[385] And it was like, yeah, when you, you know, if you, you know, I've got someone, Jason, who invested in Kreps and Cone and stuff like that and, you know, had no idea about EIS and S -E -I -S and that you could get, you know, a percentage of his investment back.

[386] And, you know, from tax that he's previous, and this is like, what, why don't we know about this?

[387] Like, why is this, you know, there's so much like even research and development.

[388] You know, you being able to claim money back from that.

[389] And it's like, a lot of people have probably watching this have no idea what I'm talking about.

[390] And it's just like, why?

[391] Why don't, why is this stuff not normalized or people knowing about this stuff?

[392] Because there's so much ways to do things, you know, and there's so much different methods of supporting, you know, doing startups or investing or there's so much things to, you know, relieve the intense, you know, amount of money you might end up spending to make that a little bit better or you're not having to spend as much or you being able to claim this back.

[393] It's crazy and I just feel like it's proper hidden.

[394] And as you, you know, you get further and further into a different world, you find out about a lot of things that you didn't know about before.

[395] When you first started getting money, What were you spending it on?

[396] When I first got, I think the first thing I probably bought was a car.

[397] Like, you good with money?

[398] Yeah.

[399] Back then, I wasn't bad with money.

[400] Like, I wasn't bad with money.

[401] I always thought, I want to, you know, there's nice things that I really want to get.

[402] Like, I wanted a nice car and this, that and the fourth.

[403] But I wasn't really like over crazy, going crazy with money.

[404] I haven't been like that.

[405] I feel like I've always been, you know, good at managing money, putting money aside, budgeting money.

[406] I feel like I'm really good at that.

[407] What advice would you give to people then that are, especially young people that are, you know, about to embark on their own career and that might, if they're lucky, come into money?

[408] What advice would you give them?

[409] You know, try not to upgrade your actual lifestyle as much as you feel like you should straight away because the thing about money is this it's not even the short term of it it's the long term of living costs and that lifestyle that maintaining that is expensive because you know you might think yeah I've got X amount of money I'll go buy this I'll still got that it's not because over time you've got to keep spending that money these bills are going to keep rolling in you've got to keep paying for this car you've got to keep paying for this house you got to keep paying for all these bills you got to keep you want to go out and have fun on holiday you want to keep you.

[410] This is, you know, so my thing is, if you do get more money, try to keep the same lifestyle as much as close as to what you was already living, you know, because it's the silent direct debits and the silent non -stop bills and the silent favors here and there and the silent holiday.

[411] That is the silent killer of what happens to people, the lifestyle.

[412] Do you think that like hip -hop culture is guilty of encouraging people, though, to upgrade?

[413] You know what I mean?

[414] I think most of my, when I think about while I was buying bottles of Don Perry on in nightclubs, the minute I got money, it's definitely because of music videos.

[415] You know what I mean?

[416] No, there is.

[417] But then.

[418] And because I was insecure.

[419] So it's a combination of the both.

[420] It was like, you're insecure because you were broke and you were only black kid in all white school.

[421] And you always wanted to have validation.

[422] Look at 50 cent over here with these bottles.

[423] He looks like he's validated.

[424] Yeah.

[425] No, I feel like it is.

[426] And the clubs know what they're doing as well.

[427] Like, I don't know if you ever notice, but in the club, they always make it look like people's ordering more bottles than they actually are getting in the thick bottles and they put them back in the back of the room.

[428] Yeah, but to a person that's just in there, they're like, oh, it looks like he's just done, I need to, it needs to.

[429] One day.

[430] Yeah, and it's just like, it's just this culture of them just taking your money.

[431] The thing is, you know, they put gambling shops do best in areas where people don't have money because people are in those areas.

[432] That's why if you go into a more.

[433] sort of deprived area, you'll see multiple gambling shops because they know that people in those areas to them money means so much more.

[434] And it's a real get -out.

[435] So they're much more susceptible, I believe, to gambling addictions and to being reckless with their money.

[436] Because if I can bet 50 quid and get 500, that changes my life.

[437] Whereas if you, you're not going to see gambling shops in rich areas.

[438] Because they're not, they might have the information to understand the actual odds.

[439] But B, they don't, a big bet isn't going to change their life in the same fundamental way.

[440] They don't have the same money insecurities.

[441] And I think this is part of the problem within the like hip hop culture, which is a lot of people are starting out without it.

[442] So they have those insecurities about money.

[443] And money is probably the reason for a lot of pain in their home.

[444] It's probably the reason they saw their mom and dad arguing.

[445] They saw a lot of pain around money in their home.

[446] And so they always, they always felt that it could fill that void.

[447] And then when they get a little bit of it, they're so much more intent and compelled to signal to everybody else that they got it by making reckless money decisions.

[448] And that's this kind of perpetual cycle because then people are looking up at them and going, okay, when I get it, I'm by the bottles of Don Perry on and I'm going to.

[449] Yeah.

[450] And it's like, it's one of those ones where it's like you can't even really help because, you know, we can make, you know, all of these decisions and show them like look you can do these and invest your money and do this do that and forth but to someone who is coming from nothing that has just got this big fat check from a record label you're going to tell me not to go and buy a watch or not to buy a chain and match everybody else that's looking you know that you know everybody all the girls love and this that or whatever it is that the reason they reason for feeling they need these things or these items like how do you tell them no don't do that do this well i think it's i think part of it is people like you who've been through that who they can who they trust because if someone else says it they ain't going to listen if their mum or dad says it who ain't been through that process who ain't made the mistakes i can't tell you the amount of times i've spoken to like young artists and said don't go and just splash your money or don't you don't need to go and buy these things or buy that or you don't need to do it and they're like yeah but i i need the chain at least like even maybe for just a chain or I need something to look like a rapper.

[451] That's what I'm saying.

[452] So it's like self -fulfillance, a cycle.

[453] Yeah.

[454] Because they're going, well, if I don't get the chain, then I'm not that rapper who I want to be someday.

[455] So if that rapper that they wanted to be someday was talking about investing and starting companies and all that stuff, they might be saying, I need to invest this money in the stock market or I need to buy a property because skeptors just bought, you know what I'm saying?

[456] But the issue is, is, you know, they need to understand that that is a, a, a, longer game and it's more about the future but as a rapper that might blow up now they're going to get these bookings and be on these television programs and being these clubs and being these parties with the artists that are shining that have the good watch on that has this they're going to be around that so that's immediate you know so telling someone you know forget their media think about the long term but they're in the media every single day and which in the immediate now.

[457] How do you tell them to ignore that?

[458] It's hard.

[459] So even when I, you know, I sit down and don't get me wrong.

[460] Like there's, there are a lot of people that do listen and, you know, do you want to do other things and, you know, that I've come and ask me for advice and ask me to introduce them to this person or that person.

[461] And I'll always do that.

[462] But there's definitely been a lot that's like, no, but I definitely need the chain.

[463] I need, I need to at least have, you know, a bus down Rolex.

[464] I need it.

[465] Like I need a bus Like everybody's been saying, you know, you watch all the, you know, big artists in the world, they've all got crazy chains on.

[466] Like, you know, you look at Hove, Jay -Z, he's one of our biggest, you know, the people that we look up to as a musician and a businessman, he's got on a sick watch every time I see a new picture of him.

[467] Or he's got, you know what I'm saying?

[468] He's got a big chain, like, he's still, they're still that element.

[469] I feel like for artists, the compromises both.

[470] Like, go and do that stuff.

[471] but you still need to do that stuff.

[472] Don't just do everything and buy, you know, spend your money and splash your money on cars and jewelry and this, don't do that.

[473] Maybe, you know, if you want to do, get your little starter pack and, you know, be on your way, cool.

[474] But don't, you know, go and spend all of your money or a big chunk of your money on that.

[475] Like, you know, if you want to do that, do it in, you know, either stages or do it in, you know, you don't have to do it all at once.

[476] I guess I understand the point as well that, like, this is branding at the end of the day.

[477] It is like it is like But behind Jay -Z you do have one hell of a portfolio Same with Diddy Like you have an unbelievable property portfolio Art collection He's made crazy bets But you're right He especially in them early days Before he was JJ He did Like and it's branding in it And you know It's hard because I feel like For a lot of new young artists Knowing everything they ever wanted Was to be like that rapper they're watching And become To then turn around and be like, no, don't do that.

[478] I completely agree.

[479] I just, I feel like they have to go through it.

[480] What they wanted, though, was to be validated and they wanted to fit in and they wanted to be accepted.

[481] Because when you go through it, yeah, you're right.

[482] It's like, oh, you're...

[483] Yeah, but is there not...

[484] That's what I'm saying, like, this is so systemic that it's not as easy as I'm, it sounds like I'm making out.

[485] Like, it's a really deep systemic system which is held in place.

[486] Like, and I've realized that when I've tried to have conversations and try to be like, yeah, no, this is what you need to do and if you want me to introduce this, you should put your money into this.

[487] And they're just like, yeah yeah okay all right and then they go and buy the next you know what i'm saying chain or pendant or whatever it is well what you're doing now is the best the best possible thing and that exactly and like it's a lot deeper than just you know a brand it's more the fact that what kind of brand what you are and showing them that okay i can actually do anything then or you know the sky's the limit and them actually seeing that this is just as big if not bigger then music because it's an example that they're following they're following the example of the one the rapper that they admire that came before them so words are fucking great whatever like they're not as powerful as an example exactly that's what role models are so so it's just actually going and and doing the things yeah and them seeing it and there'll be seeing all this stuff you've been doing when not everyone will be seeing it and they'll be thinking hmm okay yeah and it and it all spark a lot of people to think you know what let me do the idea that I had in my head a year ago yeah like why not because you know at me being a rapper to launch you never put a rapper launching a baby skincare line in the same sentence like it's just it doesn't make sense even though it makes so much sense for my life because I have a child and a daughter and it makes sense but just the fact that I've turned that into something and then them actually seeing that okay what it is is actually a good thing like it's not you know there's I feel like there's one thing putting your name to a brand or saying this is my brand go and buy it and then actually another thing actually bringing something out that in that market there's a crazy demand for and they're actually loving it.

[488] For anyone that doesn't have the context, you've launched Nala's Baby, which is a child skincare.

[489] Yeah, skin and hair care range.

[490] Named after your daughter.

[491] Nala.

[492] Yes.

[493] And this is actually how we first met, because I was filming Jagans Day in Manchester.

[494] We were both in this restaurant called Tattoo, which one of my friends' restaurants, great restaurant, go check it out.

[495] One of my favorite restaurants actually in the country.

[496] Yeah, it's fantastic.

[497] And you came over and said, you know, you introduced yourself because I think we'd been DM.

[498] We had on socials, yeah, yeah, but we obviously never made.

[499] face and face.

[500] And that's one of the first things you told me about.

[501] You said, I'm launching this brand in a week or two or whatever it was.

[502] And after that, you sent me the deck of it.

[503] And I couldn't believe it.

[504] I was sat there with Peter Jones and Deborah Mead and all the dragons.

[505] I was like, man, this guy's fucking launching a sick brand.

[506] And it's going into 400 boots stores.

[507] Because I've just been in the dental day listening to entrepreneurs, trying to figure out how to get into like, I don't know.

[508] But one of them was having a meeting with boots and they're just getting like blackboard or they're getting like sideline or whatever.

[509] And for you to come up to me, be like, oh, we're in 400.

[510] boot stores.

[511] I'm like, that's the investment I was looking for all day.

[512] Do you know what I mean?

[513] I've been looking at hand sanitiser.

[514] And you got all the shit set up before you even dropped it.

[515] You had seven figures of investment.

[516] You had this cap table, these investors that are celebrities and that are, you know, big names and that are legit people.

[517] And you said, yeah, I'm about to drop this brand in a, in a week or two, um, in 400 bootstores.

[518] I couldn't quite believe it.

[519] I was like, that's mad.

[520] And why doesn't, why isn't people, why, you know, why isn't everybody talking about this?

[521] And then a week or so later, everyone was talking about it.

[522] Yeah, because I hadn't announced it then right they were still i was basically like a week or two away from actually announcing it right and um yeah so it was like it was one of those ones but it was like even explaining to you i was like you're probably thinking how comes i've never heard of it or why but because we yeah we hadn't announced it at that point but the amount of preparation that went into even just the announcing to the launch how long did that whole project to two years Two years, like two years before Nala was born.

[523] Basically, how it started was Sasha, who's Nala's mom, was pregnant with Nala.

[524] And she became really like, I want everything natural.

[525] We're having a baby.

[526] I want the best for her.

[527] As mother's dude, you know what I mean?

[528] And she got introduced to an app.

[529] It's like a product rating ingredient app called Think.

[530] dirty so it rates products from zero to 10 so 10 being the absolute worst and zero being the cleanest so we're getting you know baby shower gifts and loads of people are giving us gifts and loads of them are products and you know skincare hair care products so we're putting all of these products in the app and all of these products you know they're claiming it this that's that and And a lot of the products are coming up as eights and fives and, like, looking for the zero.

[531] Like, is there any zero zeros here?

[532] Like, because it literally rates each individual ingredient.

[533] Oh, so zero is a good score?

[534] Zero is the best score.

[535] So that means it has zero bad ingredients in there.

[536] And, like, it highlights each ingredient of what number it gives each ingredient and how harmful.

[537] And you can click in it, it gives you the details.

[538] It's really detailed.

[539] and, you know, thorough.

[540] So I was like, there's no zero -rated, like, baby range in any of these, any of the brands that we're getting, because all the brands was, like, they're available in all the high street retailers and stuff.

[541] So I'm just like, no, this can't be right.

[542] And she was like, I don't want to use anything on her and she's born because why is there no?

[543] And then we did see, like, a few random zeros here and there, but, you know, they're either really expensive, you know, talking like 20 pound a bottle, 25 pound a bottle, or whatever it is, or they're from another country.

[544] They're not even sold here.

[545] So, you know, when she kind of brought this to my attention, it was like me having my business hat on it was like, it was just like, why don't we, why don't we make it?

[546] Why don't we make that?

[547] And then we thought, is there a reason why there isn't?

[548] Maybe, maybe there's a reason.

[549] maybe it's not feasible or what's the reason?

[550] Why isn't there?

[551] Why doesn't this exist?

[552] And then it was like, all right, cool.

[553] Where do we even start?

[554] And then I reached out to someone.

[555] I'm not sure she wants me to say her name on that because she's really private, but she's a G. And I bought the idea to her.

[556] and she was like this is a sick idea and funny enough I met an amazing manufacturer like a week ago so I will present this to them and see if it's something that they would want to do but let's mock up the branding and let's get the branding right so that when we bring it to them they can kind of vision it so you know we're working back and forth in with the branding and we're like yes this is it this looks exactly how we want it to look.

[557] And she took it to the manufacturers and the manufacturers was like, let's do it.

[558] Like, this sounds like an amazing, you know, idea.

[559] You've clearly done research and you clearly have a USP and, you know, know exactly what you lot want for this product.

[560] So this sounds like a journey that we would love to embark on.

[561] So, you know, getting the tick from the manufacturer was important for us, you know, because there's loads of, and, you know, she was one of the people as well.

[562] Getting her stop saying, yeah, I think, like, this will be great.

[563] And so we've started developing the formula.

[564] And, you know, they were like, okay, so what do you want?

[565] I was like, look, I want a brand, a skincare range, not just, you know, one skew, but like the whole range.

[566] It needs to, for one, be a zero rating on this app.

[567] all the ingredients need to be a zero.

[568] Okay, we'll get to that.

[569] I said, I want it to be 100 % natural.

[570] The most natural you can get it.

[571] And then they came back and was like, you know, 100 % isn't what we would advise for kids because, you know, microbes and fungus growing on products.

[572] You need shelf life.

[573] So, you know, you need to have a preservative in there.

[574] And there's different types of preservatives.

[575] There's natural alternatives.

[576] And it was like, okay, cool.

[577] We just want it to be the most natural you can possibly get.

[578] We want it to be as naturally derived as possible, and we wasn't going to settle.

[579] And there was that.

[580] And then there was the checklist of the parent checklist of, you know, vegan, cruelty free, you know, tear free.

[581] So if it goes in her eyes, it doesn't burn, alcohol free, all of these sensitive skin, eczema.

[582] And then, you know, because we took so long formulating it, Nala was born and she had eczma.

[583] So that was like, You know, it needs to be suitable for Exma.

[584] It needs to not irritate Exma.

[585] It needs to, you know, be suitable for sensitive skin at least.

[586] We need all of these checklists.

[587] And then it was like, okay, that's great.

[588] And then we was like, but we want it to be about £5 ,000, $5 .50.

[589] And that's where it was like, okay, this is going to be really kind of difficult to do because it's like if you want such a great product, it's going to cost a lot.

[590] And then it made me realize why this doesn't exist maybe.

[591] Maybe.

[592] I still don't know.

[593] But why doesn't this exist?

[594] And it was like, we've got to really take a hit on the margins.

[595] But if we believe that we can make a great product and sell loads of units, then, you know, it's about the mass amount of sales rather than the niche market that can afford an expensive product.

[596] And do you, you started this business with your ex partner?

[597] Yes.

[598] At the time when you started this business, were you still together?

[599] Yes, we was.

[600] So you actually, you separated in the time of formulating the business.

[601] Yeah, we did.

[602] A lot of people, I mean, obviously.

[603] For a lot of people, that would have been it.

[604] Yeah.

[605] You lot of broken up.

[606] But, you know, I feel like one thing we definitely prioritise is putting our daughter first.

[607] And, you know, we feel like this is something that if we get it right, it can be something we can pass down to our daughter or, you know, her to be proud of, you know, because we, you know, when she's older, we might not even be in a company store.

[608] I don't know, anything can happen.

[609] We might not even be here.

[610] Do you know what the company's valued at?

[611] Our one, yeah, at the moment, 17 and a half.

[612] 17 and a half million?

[613] Yeah.

[614] Based on the orders that, obviously, the mouth stores were in the orders.

[615] And that wasn't even including like D to C. It was just based on, you know, our orders from boot and the ray of sale that we was expected to hit, which we've absolutely smashed since launching.

[616] But, yeah.

[617] and the investment as well.

[618] So, I mean, I've been seeing online, it's been selling out like crazy.

[619] And, well, it's like, my team has put in an order, like, hundreds of thousands of bottles, yeah.

[620] Hundreds of thousands of bottles.

[621] Me being me, like, guys, this is a lot of bottles.

[622] Like, this is a lot of bottles.

[623] Like, are we sure we need to buy this many bottles?

[624] And my team, look, look, trust me. We know what we're doing And then We're a week and a half in And I ran out of bottles And we've already put in The order for the next Cycle of production already And that was men that last us three months And we've done all of our bottles In a week and a half, I'd say We're now nearly two weeks People are literally can't find it Going to the stores sold out, sold out.

[625] I saw people selling it on eBay and stuff It was crazy.

[626] Like, people, literally, people are still trying to get hold of it.

[627] They're going into, I get messages.

[628] Every day, people take, I can't, it's not available, it's not available, it's not available.

[629] And we've just literally had to, you know, sold out on our website.

[630] I'll stop gone.

[631] Like, everything was just selling out everywhere.

[632] It became like gold dust.

[633] People were like, well, God, I finally, I managed to get one bottle.

[634] It was only a conditioner, but, you know, when you restock, it was crazy.

[635] And we just did not see this.

[636] We knew it was going to, it was like, I knew it was going to do, like, well in terms of, like, I thought people would resonate with this because it's actually a really amazing product.

[637] But it's actually exceeded everyone's expectations.

[638] And, you know, now Boots is like, yo, we need a lot more stock.

[639] And it's like, how have we got to place another order already of making more stock to be available?

[640] and it's just like at this rate like this rate of sale like what we valued our thing before it's like definitely undervalued ourselves here based on what's what's happening here and you know now we've got to think oh my god we've actually got to think about the next phase of investment now because you know we're going to be looking to expand we're going to be looking to expand stores I'm going to make you enough for crap.

[641] I'm going to offer you all of the money from 1998 Oh my God That's so funny So yeah man We're literally just in Of like Everything that's happened And you know Everybody coming in And trying to make it work And you know Boots cooperating And you know Really being like Like you know Supportive of everything that's going on And What have you learned?

[642] What I've learned is As it relates to like You know People listening to this that might have their own ideas or they might be thinking about setting their own business.

[643] What have you learned from this, you know, this process over the last two years of building this brand that you didn't know before?

[644] What I've learned, I feel like this is the first time that I've been able to fully prepare for something in terms of you don't need to rush the process because initially when, you know, we was doing this brand.

[645] I was so excited about the brand and I wanted it wanted it out.

[646] And it was like, I could have, you know, done this brand a lot quicker.

[647] Cut corners.

[648] Could have.

[649] I could have.

[650] You know, when they sent us the first batch of samples, been like, yeah, not gone back and said, no, I don't like this.

[651] I want to change this.

[652] What's the percentage?

[653] I want it more natural.

[654] I want it more.

[655] And now, now we need to, you know, do this test and that test.

[656] And it was like, I didn't have to do all of that.

[657] I could have literally just, you know, got the brand after the first batch of samples.

[658] which is in the first couple months or whatever and been like, yeah, let's just get it online.

[659] I didn't need to, you know, take my time.

[660] We took our time, like any time there was an obstacle and it would cause us to push back and it was like, do you want to push back or do you want to just go ahead?

[661] Now, just push it back.

[662] Let's just keep pushing it back because we need everything perfect.

[663] We don't want to rush this process.

[664] You know, if something needs to be changed and it was like, I think we've got something back, and it was at like 95 % or something natural.

[665] I was like, no, if it's going to take us another month, two months to get it to the 99, I'm just going to wait.

[666] What have you learned about the importance of, one of the first lessons I learned in business was, because I'd also made the mistake previously, and then when I got it right, I realised how important it was, is like, what have you learned about the importance of the people around you?

[667] Especially you're going into an area that you've not been in before, retail, even like the baby market.

[668] It's a brand new area.

[669] So you've got to have, surely you've got to have people that know that world.

[670] Yeah.

[671] Like these are unknown unknowns to you.

[672] Like you going into that, it's the same with me in most new areas that I've been in in terms of industries.

[673] I don't even know what I don't know.

[674] Of course.

[675] And do you know what?

[676] One thing I've done with this is I let the experts be experts in certain aspects.

[677] And the issue is, though, how do you know they're experts?

[678] Because you don't even know if they're good.

[679] You don't, but all you can do is based on, you know, prior work, your relationship with them and them knowing what they're talking about.

[680] And, you know, you can only gauge it to as much as your brain can gauge something to and you've got to kind of put trust in it, whether you might have to replace this or replace that person or this or get someone else to do that.

[681] It happens in business all the time.

[682] But, you know, I feel like I've been a good judge of character so far because everybody that's been in my team from the start is still here now.

[683] Isn't it funny how good people hire good people?

[684] 100%.

[685] And bad people hire bad people.

[686] 100%.

[687] it's probably the single biggest thing I think I could impress upon anyone from this conversation as well a job and he's got time on his hands who I've who I know went to school with like why can't I find the best person in the world and inspire them to come with me on this and to fill my blind spots people don't do that 100 % and also the other reason we don't do that and why I didn't do that when I start my business is because I don't think I can manage the best person in the world someone even double my age I don't I don't know what I'm talking about so how am I going to tell them what to you know I mean and that's an insecurity that means we just go for Dave a hundred I can't remember who said it.

[688] They were saying something like that if you're in a room or around people where you know, you feel like you shouldn't be there.

[689] I can't remember where I was watching someone say that and it was like you should always feel like you shouldn't be here.

[690] Like you're the dumbest person in the room?

[691] Yeah, like, you know, if you feel like you're the smartest person in the room.

[692] Yeah, then you shouldn't be in and you should always feel uncomfortable like as in like almost like you shouldn't be here.

[693] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[694] Like and those are the rooms that you're you should be in or those are the people that you need to be trying to, you know, bring on the journey with you.

[695] That's the growth room.

[696] Yeah.

[697] And that's the growth room.

[698] And you can't be afraid of that.

[699] You've got to be able to go in there and say, like, look, this is who I am.

[700] This is what I know.

[701] And this is what I'm doing.

[702] And do you want to embark on this journey with me and not feel a way to do that?

[703] Because I feel like a lot of people might be shy to go and approach this person or, you know, say, like, even me coming to you, you've seen 100 million people talking about business to show you the business I'm doing.

[704] And, you know, being able to just feel confident enough to do that.

[705] Because some people would have thought, nah, because you're the first person that will pick apart something.

[706] You know what I'm saying?

[707] No, like, okay, so this doesn't make it sense like that.

[708] So I was just like, you know, but I've learned to just be that person and not be afraid to, you know, go and approach someone who might be 10 times more expressed in this field than me. And I don't feel scared to do that because that's the only way I'm going to grow.

[709] I want to talk to you about music as well before we finish.

[710] One of the things that I almost couldn't believe because it just feels like the most unfortunate timing ever is that you're attacked backstage.

[711] Yeah, I was, yeah, I was backstage and then, like, loads of people just come backstage.

[712] And then they was asking about someone who had no idea what they was talking about.

[713] It was just a mad, confusing hole.

[714] And then someone grabbed my chain, my cadet, my cousin.

[715] And then I just remember seeing knives like, literally, like, my jacket was, like, it was crazy.

[716] Like, all I remember is seeing I had to fight my way through it to get through the door, to close the door.

[717] But, yeah, and then I looked down.

[718] My jacket was just full of rips.

[719] And then I looked at my leg and it was soaking.

[720] My hand was bleeding.

[721] Like, it was crazy.

[722] And I remember the ambulance was like, if this was a millimeter deeper, it would have got your artery and your leg.

[723] And it would have been a different scenario.

[724] And it was a bunch of guys that I don't even know who they are.

[725] Never met them.

[726] Never had issue with them.

[727] Like, don't.

[728] It was crazy in Birmingham because they just rushed backstage.

[729] but yeah it's crazy and that um yeah no that wasn't really in like it wasn't in like right it was just a completely different um thing but it was like nash and cadet passing within the same year that was the real like not on the same year but within a year so nash passed in the summer of 2018 then cadet passed um four days after my birthday five days after my birthday right cadet passed in February so who's who's for people that don't know who is I mean cadet in the of itself is is very well known very well loved but who is cadet to you cadet is my cousin my first cousin um my dad and his dad are brothers and he was a musician as well and he passed just you know he was just having his break record and he's record was growing and like he was really in his you know that moment where you're about to just and he was there and he passed away in a car accident on the way to a show um which which was just like it was crazy because um just like a few weeks prior my uncle cadet's father just told us he's diagnosed of a brain tumour.

[730] I remember him just saying and I don't know what I'm going to do.

[731] And that was the last you know, so we began mentally preparing for my uncle and they're saying the doctors are saying that, you know, I've got a couple months at max.

[732] We was trying to get through that and then two weeks later, cadet passes in a car accident on the way to a show and he was in a full car and he was the only one that passed away which was like it was crazy and it just makes me feel like you know if something's destined for you then it's destined for you because there was so many variables that that could have changed that situation in terms of you know he was coming around a corner a blind corner and the guy that was driving was drunk driving a van and they crashed on the corner on a country road so if cadet was 10 seconds later or 10 seconds earlier that wouldn't have happened and there was like variables of he missed the cab before so there was men of getting an earlier cab but he missed that then they had to call another one and then get in that in that cab and then the other variable was there wasn't even meant to get a cab there there was meant to the show but the third person that was meant to drive them couldn't end up making it so then they've had to go there and then you know get a cab and there was so much different very and it just was like 10 seconds five seconds even so it was a drunk driver that he was drunk yeah he was drunk and he drove head on into the taxi and the car was full and he was behind a taxi driver and it the impact on his head is what killed him he was he was more than just a cousin to you there wasn't he yeah like he was like like my whole life.

[733] Like, we grew together, like, as in, like, my mum was at his birth.

[734] His mom was at my birth.

[735] Like, from day dot, we've been like this, you know.

[736] And, like, we grew together.

[737] We done everything together.

[738] She had so much first memories together.

[739] And then we had like a little moment of, of, or period.

[740] where our relationship became rocky because I started being successful in music.

[741] And he wanted to do music as well.

[742] And because it was the same argument of him.

[743] It was like, you need to go a bit more harder with this music.

[744] You need to do this, you need to do that.

[745] And so we invited him to wireless.

[746] We was performing at Wireless Festival.

[747] And it was like, just come.

[748] Like, get inspired.

[749] We've got, we're about to perform.

[750] It's going to be sick.

[751] And he came and I remember he was like, I'm so charged, I'm so charged.

[752] And then he got in the studio, he was like sending me loads of, he was like it was a whole different energy.

[753] And then, you know, you can feel that energy, you know, being resonated with, you know, fans and the audience.

[754] And then he started really building this, you know, following and he's, you know, he was really great at storytelling.

[755] Like he was an amazing storyteller.

[756] and people loved that about him and he you know it just started all happening for him and then before he died I remember he done a he put like a clip of him doing a song with another artist called Dino like they put a clip up and then I remember Conan was saying to him like turn this into a song make this a song this is make this an actual record that song now has gone you know to be platinum selling and it was independent and we was having those conversations about money he was like we because we was like look this song's picking up you're about to see really good money and he was like yeah but it's not here now and I'm saying yeah because it takes a while to get processed and for you to receive it but and he was like shall I sign the record shall I sign it to a label because a label offer me you know 100 grand 150 grand right now for it I'm saying no this song is already doing what it's doing without any label just do it independently and just let it build it and you'll make so much more than what they're offering and he was like all right cool that's what I'm going to do and then songs get getting bigger and bigger you know it's silver 200 ,000 copies 300 ,000 copies it was just growing and then you know he was finally having that moment where he was about to you know break through and then he had the accident and then it was just like everything just came crashing down and that was like within the same like within a year of Nash passing away and Nash was like my best friend and then Blaine passing away Cadet's name's Blaine passing away you know within months after that and I've just lost these two pillars in my life within a year whilst being told my uncle's going to die do you remember where you were when you found out yeah I was in Dubai my partner at the time Sasha took me to Dubai for my birthday I was packing and walking in the lobby to go to the airport back to come back so I was on the way back to London and then my friend CJ was calling me but the time that it was it was like it was like 2am or one, two a .m. in London and I think it was like six, six a .m. where I was.

[757] It was like four hours difference or something.

[758] But I just remember looking at the phone, yeah, I'm thinking, because CJ doesn't call me, but he's really close with cadet.

[759] But so he doesn't call me like, as in like he wouldn't, he was not one to call me at that time of night for anything.

[760] So I'm looking at my phone and I don't know how my brain processed that there was an issue in such a short time and he called me I was like the time in the UK is 2am CJ never calls me why is he calling me something's gone wrong he's him and Blaine are like this something's gone wrong with Blaine and I answered the phone I'd just done all of that like straight away I was just like this doesn't make sense and I'm answered the phone and he's literally crying on the phone and I knew straight away like I knew I didn't know what, how, like, sorry, I didn't know how, or I just knew that something was wrong and it was to do with Blaine because he's calling me and he's just crying on the phone, crying on the phone and I'm just like, what, what, what, what, what.

[761] And then he said, he's gone and he didn't need to say Blaine Cadet, he didn't need to say that because I knew exactly who was talking about.

[762] and then he said but he wasn't talking properly he was like car crash like he's gone he's gone he's gone like and then I just remember like I ran out of breath I had to lean on something like my breath was going like I felt like I was literally going to drop down and faint in the middle of the hotel and I was just like I didn't even know what to feel like I'm about to get a plane.

[763] I've just found out my cousins passed away and I'm, you know, stuck in an airplane.

[764] Like, this whole time I'm just going through customs and doing this, I'm doing this.

[765] But I've just found out my cousins died and I'm just like, get me back now.

[766] Like, it was one of the worst, if not the worst feeling, like ever.

[767] Like, losing him was, like, ah, it was horrible.

[768] Like, it was You know, he was such an important person in my life.

[769] Like, I would speak to him about everything, like every idea, every song, I play it to him, like, every, just everything.

[770] Like, he was like everything to me, do you know what I mean?

[771] And to lose him, it was just, well, it was hard, it's horrible.

[772] And just something we're still dealing with, still dealing with it until today.

[773] still I still I haven't even taken my thought of the gas since to sit down and actually taking that he's not here up until today haven't do you remember the last thing that you that Blaine said to you yes the last thing he said to me was just know that I love you for real for real and I've got your Gucci socks for your birthday that was the last thing he said to me And I was congratulating him on getting his first apartment because he just got his apartment and he was like, yo, I'm really feeling like, started to feel like a raffino, like I'm starting to feel like.

[774] And yeah, and he was like, I've got these Gucci socks here for you when you're back, meaning I was in Dubai.

[775] And that was the last time we spoke.

[776] I can see you're still processing it.

[777] What's on your mind?

[778] I just feel like, you should be here man and witnessing everything like I just felt like it was too soon like he was on the brink of doing something great and it was just like it just got taken away from him and yeah it just felt too soon like you know when someone has so much to offer like he has so much to offer the world he was like his presence was so infectious like he's that person that will come somewhere and you just you will remember him because like he's such a troll comedian makes you laugh so positive hasn't got a bad bone in his body like he's he's the person he was the person that will tell you all the friends I love you bro and everyone's like oh bro stop saying like he would say yeah I love you and he would say it look you dead in your hands and say yeah I love you and he didn't feel a way to say that and he you know he was always so expressive and he made us feel comfortable to be like I love you man I love you too I love you too like my brother I love you like and you know he was that guy and you know he had the most infectious laugh like he was so honest with you know when you're trying to make a decision he'll give you the most honest opinion if you think something's not good or nothing something's terrible idea like Like he was that person man and he was a big part of me so that's why I feel like I haven't and don't want to sit down and process it and it's not easy you know we buried not buried but my uncle got cremated but his funeral was yesterday so he passed away a few weeks ago he gave him a few months he lived an extra few years so he was a fighter but I've lost both of them and like they're both important role models in my life like my uncle was he was the guy do you know what I mean like he was the responsible the guy like my dad like my dad is more the, you know, I can go and do something with my dad that we shouldn't be doing.

[779] Like, he's that guy, you know what I'm saying?

[780] And me and my dad are really close now, do you know what I mean?

[781] But my uncle was always that if I need advice or this is what I'm going through or what shall I do here and, you know, even talking to him about knowledge and him saying, like, you know, you should do this right, get investment.

[782] Well, in those moments when you realize that life can be unfair and precious in equal measure.

[783] People often speak about things, words that went unsaid, things they wish they could say in hindsight, something that I think a lot about with my parents as well.

[784] I try and reflect on the fact that they're not going to be here forever in that there's certain things I wish I should probably be saying to them now that at some point when I realize which life teaches us in the most unfortunate ways that life is finite, it's not guaranteed and it is precious that we realize when it's too late and people, as they say, get the roses after they can smell.

[785] them.

[786] Definitely.

[787] Is there anything that you, when you reflect on words, you wish you could have said to him or you wish you could say now that, that, um, that comes to mind.

[788] Is there anything where you go, do you know, I wish in hindsight, now I know how precious life is, I wish that this had been different or, um, no, but he did teach me a very valuable lesson because otherwise I would have had that regret and I would have been eating me up until today was us sorting out our little issues that we had and becoming close again and not letting that drag out because if we didn't, I would have lived in regret for the rest of my life the fact that I didn't, you know, we didn't hug, hug a hug through it and turn our page and get on with what we are as cousins, blood and family and, you know, we've been in each other's lives forever, we trust, love each other like, Like, if I didn't rectify that situation, we didn't rectify that situation, how would I felt?

[789] So it's definitely taught me from there when I have issues with people that are close to me or arguments with family members.

[790] Let's sort it out now.

[791] We've got to sort it out now.

[792] Let's argue.

[793] Let's scream at each other now, but let's do it now.

[794] And let's hug afterwards.

[795] That's what it's taught me. I don't want to, you know, live in a regret and think, ah, like, the last conversation we had was arguing, wasn't even talking.

[796] Our words were harsh or, you know, because that can happen.

[797] And also other little moments of spending time, you know, I feel like, especially even after yesterday and just seeing my family that was at Blaine's funeral, at my uncle's funeral, and thinking that if this was me these are the same people that are going to be there for me this is who I need to be focusing my time and energy on because these are the people that care the most not say no one don't care but as in these are the people that are going to be here if this happens to me these are the people that are lifting my uncle's casket that is going to go and lift my casket this is where I need to to really focus and spend my time because everything else is great, it's lovely, but, you know, anything can happen to me and that means nothing and then it means everything to my family.

[798] Do you think you need to confront some of those things that you've kept yourself distracted from confronting, the grief, the loss?

[799] Yeah, I do.

[800] And how do you think you'd go about doing that?

[801] Because I've heard you speak about and encourage other people to go to therapy before and have those conversations.

[802] But from what I was able to ascertain, that's not something you've done.

[803] I haven't done therapy.

[804] I'm not, I just, I just felt like, you know, if someone feels like they want to go therapy, don't feel weird by going to therapy.

[805] I don't know why that was even, even seems as weird at a stage or not even weird, sorry.

[806] Used to be stigmatized.

[807] Yeah, just like, if you go to therapy, maybe you were crazy or something.

[808] Yeah, like, whatever it was.

[809] But it's not, it's just, it's normal.

[810] But I haven't done it because I feel like I'm, on this treadmill yes and that's why i haven't done it and i feel like therapy is going to be the thing to make me actually take everything in and i feel maybe i'm scared to go therapy maybe but i feel like i should we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks the next guest a question they don't know who they're writing it for and i don't get to read the question until i open this book so um interesting these are always quite difficult because they're always quite profound, but when was the last time you changed your mind about something life -changing?

[811] I think the last time I changed my mind was Nala's baby.

[812] The fact of, you know, we just broke up and we had that, yeah, no, we're not going to do this because it just doesn't make sense.

[813] And then having that, you know what?

[814] Nah, we've got to put our daughter first change my mind.

[815] Let's do it.

[816] Let's do it.

[817] Let's do it.

[818] Let's do it.

[819] Let's do it.

[820] And it was like, okay, cool, let's do it.

[821] And, you know, I feel like what we're about to achieve with that God willing, you know, was a life -changing decision.

[822] It's interesting because when I reflect on the story you've shared with me today, there was another moment where you had to make a big decision, sat in that car after Conan was, Conan's family was attacked.

[823] Yes.

[824] And it's funny in hindsight how you can see how a decision just in the opposite direction that could have happened through emotion in the moment.

[825] A decision not to choose maturity or to put something more important first could have sent your life in a completely different direction.

[826] Yes.

[827] Just for temporary feelings.

[828] You know, a decision you can make can make a permanent outcome and it's just like, yeah, think about it.

[829] CREP.

[830] Thank you for your time.

[831] It's been, I mean, it's been incredibly inspiring to meet you, to get to know you, to see what you've done.

[832] And I don't know, I feel like life might have, you know, made us cross past for a reason because I was thinking a lot about a lot of things to do with like money and investing and how, you know, how to be a better role model for the next generation of people and young people from slightly challenging backgrounds.

[833] And then I'd met you that day.

[834] You were doing this incredible thing with Nala's baby.

[835] And it was like the universe had conspired to inspire me at that exact moment.

[836] to make sure that your story and what you're doing becomes the role model, becomes the thing that young people are aspiring to do because not only did you have huge success in this one area of hip -hop music and rap and those things, but for you then to go into a completely unexpected, a slightly bizarre, to be honest, the way of the babyware industry.

[837] It's the most perfect example of resisting your labels.

[838] Your labels told you to be a, rapper to rap.

[839] But in resisting your labels, you went into a completely different area where you're absolutely not allowed to be according to society.

[840] And for you to make a huge success there, I think, is the best evidence we can all take on for our own lives that we are not our labels.

[841] We can do anything.

[842] And also, you've given such clarity on like the steps that we take to get there, the importance of team, the importance of hard work.

[843] And much of it is just the importance to self -belief because when your partner was having those concerns about other baby wear baby products on the market a lot of people would have just accepted it they would have just taken the product that had the eight rating but there's a certain type of person that goes maybe we can change this and that's what you did so thank you for the inspiration thank you for the generosity of your time and thanks for sharing your story