Episode 38: Me, Me, Me

[0] This is Hidden Brain.

[1] I'm Shankar Vedantam.

[2] You don't have to look far to see evidence of narcissism in our culture.

[3] I'm an international phenomenon and my name is Miley and everyone knows that.

[4] No, no, I know that.

[5] Snap, girls, the show's over.

[6] You can all go home, pack your bags.

[7] I have not done a selfie in this glam room.

[8] How many selfies are you going to do home one day?

[9] You're like obsessed.

[10] I just need, I need 1 ,200.

[11] Karen West and Kim Kardashian are only the tip of the iceberg.

[12] Our society is in the midst of a full -blown narcissism epidemic.

[13] It doesn't take a psychologist to see that, but we decided to talk to one anyway.

[14] We're more focused on the self, we're less focused on social rules.

[15] At the extreme, that can turn into this narcissistic attention -seeking of everybody.

[16] Look at me and how great I am.

[17] This is Gene Twengee.

[18] colleges at San Diego State.

[19] She's analyzed data collected from millions of people over the last half century.

[20] We found that if you look at baby boomers in the 60s compared to millennials in more recent times, millennials are much more likely to say that they think they're above average.

[21] We'll talk about what this means for young people later in the conversation, but Gene Twenge says our culture as a whole, from reality TV to social media, has come to encourage an obsessive focus on the self.

[22] I think there are a lot of factors.

[23] You know, our culture has changed in so many ways.

[24] And the feature that I always come back to is we are a more individualistic culture now compared to what our culture was, say, in the 1950s.

[25] So we're more focused on the self, we're less focused on social rules.

[26] At the extreme, that can turn into this narcissistic attention seeking of everybody.

[27] Look at me and how great I am.

[28] And I'm wondering if this affects not just the people at the extreme ends of the spectrum, but people who are, you know, the rest of us.

[29] You have Facebook and Twitter and all kinds of mechanisms now to tell people what you had for dinner last night, what wonderful vacation you're going on, the amazing things that your kid is doing at school.

[30] There are all kinds of ways to boast about yourself to more and more people.

[31] Yeah, social encourages people to just focus on the good parts of themselves, which, you know, in some ways is the definition of narcissism.

[32] Now, I'm not saying everybody on these sites is narcissistic per se, but we do know from lots of studies now five or six that people who score high in narcissism have more friends on Facebook, for example.

[33] So the average person you're connected to on one of these sites is probably higher in narcissism and the average person you know in real life.

[34] And that molds the way people communicate in a way that really does seek attention, especially for all of these positive things.

[35] It is really a venue for bragging that just wasn't available 20 years ago.

[36] I'm fascinated by one point that you make in your book, which is a lot of this might start very early with a cultural emphasis on building self -esteem and on encouraging young people to.

[37] follow their dreams.

[38] And at one level, that statement seems almost anodyne that it's a good thing to encourage people to follow their dreams, to encourage people to believe in themselves and believe in what they're capable of doing.

[39] But you raise a number of examples or a number of concerns about the potential downside of encouraging people to believe in themselves and follow their dreams.

[40] Talk about that a little bit.

[41] Sure.

[42] So yes, we can see this in the culture.

[43] There is this very strong emphasis on feeling good about yourself, positive self -views.

[44] It's captured in a lot of phrases like you can be anything you want to be, follow your dreams, you are special, believe in yourself and anything is possible.

[45] It is taken for granted that to succeed you must have very high self -esteem.

[46] The problem with that is it's not true from many studies.

[47] So, big, research review looked at this, and people who score high in self -esteem are not necessarily any more successful than anybody else, especially when you take into account family background and things like that.

[48] You do find some effect that, for example, kids who do well in school develop high self -esteem.

[49] But the way our culture thinks about it is you should build up self -esteem for no particular reason, you're special just for being you, and that will lead to good things.

[50] It doesn't work that way.

[51] That puts the cart before the horse.

[52] I'm wondering if I might even have an even more pernicious effect than that, which is that if you build up your self -esteem without actually the accomplishments and, you know, the effort required to build it up in a genuine fashion, it might actually dissuade you from doing the things that would actually lead to achievements.

[53] I mean, what psychological incentive do you have to work hard and achieve things that can build up your self -esteem when your self -esteem is, you know, sky high to begin with?

[54] Exactly.

[55] And so that's probably why self -esteem is a wash. That on the one hand, it could be seen as, well, that means you'll go and take the initiative, but on the other, maybe you won't.

[56] If you're already great, why should you do anything?

[57] Another example that illustrates this is in the U .S., the ethnic group that has the lowest self -esteem is Asian Americans.

[58] Those are the kids with the best academic performance, the adults with the highest educational attainment, lowest unemployment rate.

[59] Of course, it's a cultural thing.

[60] But it really does really demonstrate in one piece of data, how this idea that you have to be supremely self -confident to succeed just isn't true.

[61] You cite data in the book looking at Google Books and the use of the phrase, you can be anything over a period of time.

[62] Yeah, so we looked at individualistic words and phrases.

[63] In the Google Books database, we also looked at pronouns like I and me versus we and us, to try to see this more broader cultural view about language use and how that might have changed over the last 50 or 60 years.

[64] This is a great resource.

[65] You can look at, we looked at American books and found a pretty pronounced shift toward more individualistic language.

[66] So you are special.

[67] I'm the best.

[68] All of those phrases went up.

[69] Words like unique and personalized.

[70] I and the use of I, me and mine went up.

[71] The use of we and us went down by a little bit.

[72] One of the biggest increases was the use of you and yours, so a way that the author is directly speaking to the reader.

[73] So all very individualistic language, and it really shows how it goes beyond just this generational shift toward an overall cultural shift that is emphasizing the individual more.

[74] You explore the fact this begins right from the point at which parents give names to children.

[75] Yeah.

[76] So another nice, beautiful, big data, data set.

[77] social security administration baby names data set.

[78] Many people are familiar with this because they'll tell you, you know, which names are the most popular.

[79] We were interested in how many babies get popular names.

[80] And we found a pronounced shift in the percentage of babies who get, for example, one of the top 10 names.

[81] Back in the 50s, about a third of boys and about 25 % of girls got just those 10 most popular names.

[82] And now it's less than.

[83] 10%.

[84] So it used to be that parents would give kids common names so they could fit in because that was considered a good thing.

[85] Now the emphasis is let's give our child a unique name so he or she can stand out.

[86] And that again captures that emphasis on uniqueness, which is an integral part of individualism.

[87] The cultural shift toward greater individualism has had a profound effect on one group in particular, young people, the generation known as the millennials.

[88] Gene Twanky has analyzed survey data collected over a half century that asks young people a number of questions to measure their levels of narcissism.

[89] So one is to say, do you think that you're above average compared to other people your age?

[90] And then there's a list of trades given.

[91] And we found that if you look at baby boomers in the 60s compared to millennials in more recent times, Millennials are much more likely to say that they think they're above average in traits like drive to achieve, leadership ability, writing ability, general academic ability.

[92] Across the board, they say, yeah, I think I'm better than other people my age at this.

[93] And we wondered if it was demographic just.

[94] We found out no, that it wasn't.

[95] The groups that are more prominent in college populations now actually score lower on measures like that.

[96] We wondered if it was actual performance, but it's not.

[97] SAT scores are unchanged or down.

[98] But we did find evidence from another source to see the type of feedback that these students are given when they're in high school, their grades.

[99] And the percentage you graduate with an A average from high school has doubled, which is another way that captures this emphasis that's placed on feeling good about yourself.

[100] Because if more people are A students, more people feel good about themselves.

[101] even though performance is about the same.

[102] And the amount of time high school students spend on homework has actually gone down.

[103] So it's not that they're working harder.

[104] I wonder if I can push back at you for just a moment.

[105] You know, when you think about young people being more individualistic, being more assertive about their own expectations, I can also see this having a really good side to it.

[106] You know, if I'm thinking about young women today, I would imagine that young women probably have higher expectations about their employers, about their romantic partners, about who they interact with, that they're more assertive about the things that should be coming to them.

[107] And I would imagine that this has to be a good thing.

[108] Yeah, it's funny you'd mention that because that's how I got into this whole generational thing in the first place.

[109] The first few studies that I did were looking at changes in women's personality traits and roles.

[110] And that's exactly what we found, that women have become more assertive, more focused on leadership.

[111] And I think within limits, that is a good thing, that we have more gender equality, that we have women who are more willing to be assertive and that that's more socially acceptable.

[112] And when I did those first few papers, that was my view, that that was an unmitigated good.

[113] And then as my research went on, and I started to look at self -esteem and narcissism and some of the more extreme forms, I realized that it was a tradeoff.

[114] it can be a very good thing to have some assertiveness and some self -confidence, but that it is also very possible for that to be taken too far, not just confidence, but overconfidence.

[115] So when it crosses into that overinflated sense of self, which is one definition of narcissism, that's when it can be problematic.

[116] I have to say, though, that this might not be limited to the 35 an under crowd, you know, we're in the midst of a presidential election where there are a lot of candidates who are saying, you know, look at me, I'm the best, things are going to be great under me, I know what I'm doing, I know better than other people.

[117] You don't see a lot of careful reflection and self -doubt and caution and, you know, other people know better than I do.

[118] You don't hear a lot of that.

[119] You hear a lot of bragging.

[120] Yeah.

[121] So there's actually study that looked indirectly at presidential narcissism.

[122] They looked at historians' depictions of their personality and coded these on a rubric that lined up with narcissistic personality.

[123] And sure enough, our presidents are a narcissistic bunch compared to the average American, but also that's grown over time.

[124] More recent presidents are higher in those narcissistic traits compared to previous decades.

[125] Some of that is just the media pulse for this.

[126] that in a time when really what a presidential election is about is a public performance, that's not really about caring for other people.

[127] It's about a public performance.

[128] That pulls for more narcissistic personality.

[129] Psychologist Gene Twenge.

[130] When we come back, Gene and I will talk about the downside of making young people feel that they are wildly special.

[131] When you talk to millennials, you can really see this disqualification.

[132] illusionment, that they were set up with this very buoyant view of what their future was going to be, and they ended up disappointed by what they found when they got to adulthood.

[133] Stay with us.

[134] Jane Twangy, you've painted a disturbing picture about rising levels of narcissism, personal ambition, and individualism.

[135] What happens when people's sky -high impressions of themselves and their expectations, their self -image, what happens when all these things collide with reality?

[136] Well, it can be a difficult picture.

[137] So just for a little background first, we know from these surveys of high school students, for example, that twice as many expect to get, for example, a graduate and professional degree compared to boomers in the 70s.

[138] Yet the same number of people will actually get those degrees.

[139] So expectations have grown and reality has stayed about the same.

[140] So at some point, these expectations collide with reality.

[141] And that can potentially lead to unhappiness, and it can potentially lead to anxiety and depression and other mental health issues.

[142] So we looked at this with happiness recently, and we found a decline in happiness among adults age 30 and older, especially in the last 10 or 15 years.

[143] And that may be partially due to these expectations not being met.

[144] So you're finding something actually quite profoundly sad here, which is it's not just that this culture of individualism is not necessarily helping us when it comes to achievement, but it might actually be counterproductive when it comes to our mental health and our happiness.

[145] Yeah.

[146] So, you know, the happiness picture was especially interesting because adolescents are actually happier.

[147] So they have the happy individualism and optimism compared to those, say, in the 90s.

[148] But then they hit this wall sometime in their mid -20s to 30 when then in recent times happiness is lower.

[149] Because it used to be people over the age of 30 were significantly happier than those in their 20s.

[150] And they still are, but by a much smaller margin, than they used to be.

[151] It used to be growing up, you became more content.

[152] And that's not quite as true as it used to be.

[153] Then there's the bigger issue of anxiety and depression, and we see more of those issues coming up as well.

[154] And even at younger ages, high school students now are more likely to say they have trouble sleeping, that they have trouble concentrating.

[155] And these are psychosomatic symptoms of depression.

[156] So there's a real irony here, isn't it, which is that the generation that has been taught, you are special and can make a difference, is reaching the conclusion that they are not special and they can't make a difference.

[157] And that must be very, very painful.

[158] I think so.

[159] And I think when you talk to millennials, you can really see this disillusionment and anger that they feel.

[160] I think rightly so that they were set up with this very buoyant view of what their future was going to be.

[161] and they, I mean, this was true even before the Great Recession hit, that they ended up disappointed by what they found when they got to adulthood.

[162] And then the economic picture changed for the worse, and it became an even more difficult transition to adulthood.

[163] I want to ask you a personal question.

[164] You have children yourself, and you've done a lot of research looking at the potential perils of teaching children to be overly individualistic or narcissistic.

[165] What are you doing to change the way your own children think?

[166] So we talk a lot about hard work.

[167] We don't talk a lot about feeling special at all.

[168] It's funny, some people will sometimes say to me, oh, do you tell your kids you're not special?

[169] Well, no. We just don't talk about it that much.

[170] When it does come up, my oldest one in particular, she does know what narcissism means.

[171] And we've talked about that.

[172] And so, you know, because she sees that.

[173] She sees it around her.

[174] She sees it in things that we see on TV and kind of knowing what that is has helped us, you know, have a dialogue about, you know, well, there's the things that are really important like having friends and doing well in school and spending time with their family.

[175] And then there's the things that people think are important that maybe aren't quite as important as everybody thinks they are, like getting lots of attention and looking perfect all the time.

[176] And then with my younger two, it's just more of a focus on I love you instead of your special, which is what parents mean anyway, and then just really focusing on, okay, the way to get better is to work hard and that what you do does make a difference.

[177] But it's not just how you feel about yourself, it's what you do.

[178] What suggestions do you have for young people?

[179] We have a lot of millennials who listen to our podcast.

[180] what do you think young people can do to both learn from this research but also apply its findings to their own lives?

[181] So first, I really want folks to understand.

[182] None of this is meant at all as a criticism and it's not about blaming.

[183] It's about what are young people have to say and how is that different from what previous generation said when they were the same age.

[184] What can we learn from that?

[185] How can we take that and understand, you know, have a clear -eyed view of the changes in our culture.

[186] So I think every generation, I'm a Gen Xer, so we did the same thing, you know, we looked at our culture, we looked at ourselves and said, hey, you know, there's some things here that they need to change, and there's some things here we want to keep.

[187] And I think every generation does that.

[188] So my hope is that millennials will do that and say, hey, you know, maybe I'm not going to tell my kids that they're so special and that they're so special and that they can.

[189] can be anything.

[190] Maybe I'm going to tell my kids that I love them and we need to focus on working hard and making friends and those things that are more important in life.

[191] Maybe we'll see that cultural shift.

[192] After having done all this work, looking at the rise of individualism and narcissism, when you go to a party or when you go to a classroom, are you actually counting off in your head saying, you know, narcissist, not a narcissist, individualist, not an individualist?

[193] Are you keeping a running tally as you look at the news about, you know, how these personality traits are manifesting themselves in different people?

[194] Well, sometimes it's glaringly obvious.

[195] Even people who don't have a background in narcissism, much less psychology, to see displays of narcissism in the current political scene.

[196] But in some cases, yes, sometimes there are ways that you can spot someone who has these.

[197] these personality traits.

[198] And, you know, some people have said to me, well, you know, is that really useful?

[199] You're just labeling people.

[200] But I think the history of psychology suggests that it's not just a label.

[201] It's that once you label it, then you can understand it because then you can draw on the huge body of research evidence to know, okay, that might help me predict what this person is going to do next.

[202] So that, you know, this guy I'm dating, you know, he tends to turn the conversation back around to himself and he likes to brag about his status.

[203] What will happen next?

[204] Well, Well, in three months, he's going to leave you for a younger model.

[205] That's what's going to happen next.

[206] So it's very useful to have an understanding of this trait, among other things.

[207] Do you apply it in your own life and in your own personal relationships of who you want to have as colleagues or friends?

[208] I did give my husband the narcissistic personality inventory on our fourth date.

[209] I'm not kidding.

[210] I wish I was, but I'm not.

[211] It was snuck in with a bunch of other personality questionnaires, but I did do that.

[212] And, yeah, he scored low, and the rest is history.

[213] Gene Twenge is a psychologist and the author of the books, Generation Me, and the Narcissism Epidemic.

[214] This episode of The Hidden Rain podcast was produced by Maggie Penman and edited by Jenny Schmidt.

[215] Our staff also includes Kara Mogherk Allison, Chris Benderev, and Max Nestrack.

[216] You can follow our stories on Facebook and Twitter.

[217] You can also listen to my stories on your local public radio station.

[218] If you like this episode, consider giving us a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to your podcast.

[219] It helps other people find the show.

[220] I'm Shankar Vedantham, and this is NPR.