Gretchen Rubin (on happiness)

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[3] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert experts on expert.

[4] I'm Dan Parker Randall and I'm joined by Gretchen Mulrooney.

[5] Oh my God.

[6] You really pulled those out of your ass.

[7] They felt right coming out.

[8] They surprised me. Yeah, I liked that.

[9] I mean, part of it was influenced by our guests.

[10] Of course.

[11] Gretchen, Rubin.

[12] Yeah.

[13] She's a best -selling author, a podcaster, and a speaker, and she has a flurry of different great books.

[14] Outer order, inner calm, before tendencies, better than before.

[15] Happier at home, the Happiness Project.

[16] By now, it would occur to you that she specializes in happiness.

[17] She does.

[18] She's fascinated with what makes people happy.

[19] She studied every kind of angle of it.

[20] And she has a new book out right now called, life in five senses, how exploring the senses got me out of my head and into the world.

[21] She also has a podcast called Happier with Gretchen Rubin, and I just enjoyed the shit out of Gretchen.

[22] I did too.

[23] She was super fun.

[24] She's so smart.

[25] And spoiler, she clerked for a Supreme Court Justice.

[26] That is a big deal.

[27] That's a big boy.

[28] That's a daddy long legs.

[29] That is a daddy long leg.

[30] That's a textbook long legs right there.

[31] But she was all kinds of playful.

[32] Yeah.

[33] We liked her.

[34] Anyone that comes in here, tussles with us, plays around, gets on the floor, rassels a little bit.

[35] Yeah.

[36] I'm going to love.

[37] She's wearing a really pretty green dress.

[38] You know who was a little wrestler?

[39] Hmm.

[40] Is Nicholas Braun?

[41] I listened to 15.

[42] That's where I heard this thing that you'll hear us argue about in the fact check, whether or not it was said.

[43] Oh, wait.

[44] Now might be the place for me to play it.

[45] Let's tell people right now.

[46] Okay.

[47] Let's just warn them.

[48] Yeah.

[49] Skip the fact check.

[50] No. Oh, I'm sorry.

[51] I thought it was like armchair anonymous.

[52] No, I don't like that for fact checks.

[53] Listen to it.

[54] But get comfortable.

[55] But no, it is unedited.

[56] They'll know that because we talk a lot about that fact.

[57] I just want them to be prepared going in.

[58] You want them to lower their expectations a little bit.

[59] Yeah, okay.

[60] Wonderful.

[61] Well, you don't have to lower your expectations for Gretchen Rubin.

[62] She was a blast.

[63] Please enjoy Gretchen Rubin.

[64] Thank you so much for your patience.

[65] We had a pretty wild day and I fell behind, but I wanted to be prepared.

[66] So I appreciate it.

[67] so much.

[68] I hope you weren't too uncomfortable.

[69] Oh, no. I have total studio envy, so I was taking it.

[70] Oh, you do?

[71] Where do you record yours?

[72] In my little home office.

[73] It's just tiny and this is such a fun vibe.

[74] Yours is successful.

[75] I think you could probably invest in an upgrade.

[76] But I live in New York City, so it's just so nice to be able to do it in my home office.

[77] But I definitely do not have room for two big comfortable recliners.

[78] I want even just the chairs.

[79] This is what we would call a flex.

[80] Yeah.

[81] Young people would call a flex.

[82] They'd be able to have two Lazy Boys is the post.

[83] I've always wanted to have a treadmill desk.

[84] I gave my sister a treadmill dust because I couldn't get one because my office is too small.

[85] And you do the show with your sister as well?

[86] And she's a very successful writer.

[87] She's a TV writer.

[88] Yeah.

[89] The showrunner.

[90] The Shield for many, many years.

[91] Yeah.

[92] Oh, amazing.

[93] And now she's doing Fantasy Island for Fox.

[94] That's a series.

[95] Yeah.

[96] Because they also did a movie a minute ago.

[97] Yes, no, this is now the series.

[98] I presume she lives in L .A. She does.

[99] She lives in Encino.

[100] And when you're in town, do you stay with her?

[101] I did.

[102] I just came from her house.

[103] And do you have mom?

[104] in the morning where you're reminded of being children.

[105] Oh, that's fun.

[106] Oh, that's interesting.

[107] My cousins who I spend every summer with, Mandy and Kelly, I love them so much.

[108] They came out and visited about two months ago.

[109] And my cousin, Kelly, the older sister, was trying to get out of the seat in our basement.

[110] And she really was too far reclining.

[111] She couldn't.

[112] And I was helping her.

[113] And all this stuff was happening.

[114] And Mandy was watching.

[115] And then right as Kelly gave it the, like, one, two, three.

[116] and her butt cheeks were totally hanging out and right as she stands up, Mandy goes I started laughing.

[117] I mean, we were all eight years old.

[118] That's exactly what was happening when we were eight making fart noises someone was embarrassed, everyone's laughing.

[119] I time traveled for a minute.

[120] It was so lovely.

[121] Yeah, yeah, that's great.

[122] You know, because there is a kind of intimacy with your family that's very different.

[123] My sister's more just that I can walk into her closet and take something or I can open up the fridge and take something or tell her your office is really messy.

[124] I want to clean it up.

[125] There's no boundaries.

[126] Yes, there's an ease there.

[127] It's liberating to be with someone that has no boundaries because of your family.

[128] But then working with that person when there are no boundaries can get tricky.

[129] I love working with my sister.

[130] Is she older or younger?

[131] She's five years younger.

[132] It was funny because when we started, somebody said, well, you should really highlight your conflicts because people are interested in conflicts.

[133] And I was like, well, that's a problem because I have fewer conflicts with my sister probably than any other person in my life.

[134] Wow.

[135] Yes, but I think it really depends on the sibling.

[136] But for us, it works really, really well.

[137] It is interesting.

[138] what people will map on to something.

[139] Like, you need conflict.

[140] That's just kind of a funny note.

[141] But we've said that.

[142] What I realize is we don't have conflict, but we have differences.

[143] You see things differently, but you don't have to have combative.

[144] Yeah.

[145] Although we do have dust apps.

[146] To be totally honest, we have some dustups.

[147] We've had a couple therapists listen to our troubles and advise us.

[148] We've done it.

[149] We've done it all.

[150] But I don't think that's the part that makes the show.

[151] No, no. The difference is, yeah, challenging is one thing, but conflict, I guess, is a little different.

[152] So you're five years older.

[153] Were you close growing up?

[154] I have that gap with my brother, and it can be insurmountable at times.

[155] I mean, when you're in sixth grade and she's in first grade, that's a big.

[156] Right.

[157] When we were younger, we weren't as close, and we've become closer and closer as we've gotten older.

[158] Because at a certain point, you just merge together and you're just both adults.

[159] You're just both old.

[160] You're both at some point.

[161] And neither of us thought we would be writers as children, but then we sort of ended up in similar fields.

[162] So especially when we were younger, we weren't.

[163] close.

[164] And then when I was in college and she was in high school, we got closer.

[165] And then as adults, we got closer.

[166] And you obviously were going to be in law.

[167] I presume you got a law degree.

[168] Yeah, but it wasn't obvious.

[169] It was definitely like a, I don't know what else to do, you know.

[170] Let's eat up some time.

[171] Yeah, yeah.

[172] It's a good option.

[173] I can always change my mind later.

[174] It's a great education.

[175] I'm good at research and writing.

[176] What was she thinking she was going to do?

[177] Well, right after college, she ended up going to a company that created sort of pulp fiction.

[178] for Y .A. Like, I think she wrote, what was that series?

[179] There were like a hundred of them.

[180] Twilight.

[181] No, no, no, earlier than that.

[182] Anyway, so she did get...

[183] Babysitter's Club.

[184] No, not that, but in that field.

[185] But anyway, she got into that pretty quickly and sort of got steering towards writing.

[186] She was a writer before I was.

[187] And I think seeing her example helped me make the switch into writing because it felt much more possible.

[188] Well, you had the arrogance of the older sibling, which is like, well, if she can do it, I guess I can do it, right?

[189] Yeah.

[190] I think everything I do my brother is, like, yeah, duh, I would have done that, too, if I just would have moved L .A. I mean, if he can do it, clearly I kind of, we grew up in the same house.

[191] Yeah.

[192] Now, Kansas City, in the same era I grew up, I think, and Detroit, it's bullseye Midwest.

[193] When you got to Yale, were you like, I'm home, or did you have culture shock?

[194] I felt like I'm home.

[195] You're like, I belonged here.

[196] I should have grown up here.

[197] Well, I don't know that I felt like I belong there because I was pretty intimidated, but I felt like this is where I want to be.

[198] I didn't feel like, oh, I'm a fish out of water.

[199] So you got a law degree.

[200] And then this interests me greatly because I don't have any idea what they do, but you clerked for a U .S. Supreme Court.

[201] Oh, wow.

[202] Sandra.

[203] Day O 'Connor.

[204] Sandra Day O 'Connor.

[205] What does a clerk do?

[206] Are you in the courtroom?

[207] Are you watching all this stuff?

[208] What's the day of a clerk?

[209] So typically you do it for just a year.

[210] You come in as sort of like one of 30 -odd young lawyers and you prepare memos for the justices.

[211] So there'll be just huge amounts of materials.

[212] So you summarize it and present, here are the arguments.

[213] for here are the arguments against to sort of help them sort through all the briefs that they have.

[214] And yeah, you do get to watch and there's like a special place behind a grill.

[215] It's very dramatic where you sit and you can watch the arguments.

[216] Oh, wow.

[217] Oh, no kidding.

[218] Uh -huh.

[219] And one of the things that's interesting is no one is supposed to be able to overhear what the clerks are talking about for fear that that would give them insight into what the justices are thinking.

[220] So like in the lunchroom you had to sit in a special area so that nobody could come and eavesdrop on your conversation.

[221] No kidding.

[222] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[223] I mean, that kind of makes sense.

[224] The decisions they make end up moving markets.

[225] Yeah, for sure.

[226] What a cool, weird behind the curtain.

[227] It is.

[228] I feel like it's one of the great experiences of my life was getting to do that.

[229] Were they very long days where you, like, young and working around the clock?

[230] And they call you and treat you like a gopher?

[231] No, they're very respectful of their clerks.

[232] It's a very cool model where they have reunions of your clerks.

[233] It's a very kind of mentor, mentee, all judges and clerks.

[234] It's a very respectful relationship.

[235] I'm surprised other professions don't have it because it's a really powerful thing.

[236] You feel like an immediate comradeship with anybody who's clerked for your judge or your justice.

[237] It's really very cool.

[238] So, yeah, you work really hard.

[239] Of course, it's changed tremendously since I did it.

[240] It was a very respectful, very formal.

[241] You're not saying is it's so hard to get those positions.

[242] It's extremely hard.

[243] My aunt would say that and it has.

[244] I turned a few down, so I disagree.

[245] I wasn't even, I was in archaeology.

[246] I was in anthropology.

[247] I forgot what I majored in.

[248] It was in archaeology.

[249] In that year, were there any really headliney cases that happened?

[250] One of them was VMI, which was about the Virginia Military Institute, which was whether it had to admit women.

[251] Oh.

[252] But separate from the whole gauntlet episode that also happened, that's separate from that.

[253] Yeah.

[254] And obviously they had to admit women.

[255] Was that the outcome?

[256] does the Supreme Court interest you in general and have you listened to more perfect that podcast?

[257] I haven't listened to it and I read about it, but I don't follow it that closely.

[258] I have to say now from a legal perspective.

[259] Clearly in the short time since you were there, it has pretty radically evolved, wouldn't you agree?

[260] Yes.

[261] Would you say for the better or the worst?

[262] To me, it feels like for the worse.

[263] Yes, for the worse.

[264] For the worse, yeah.

[265] It's so political.

[266] It's kind of runaway.

[267] It's weird because you see what's happening in Israel.

[268] And, of course, that sounds very totalitarian and everything.

[269] But at the same time, there does need to be some little course correction on the amount of power, I feel like.

[270] Now it's like, well, who cares about the presidency?

[271] It's all about which judge you appoint for the next 30 years.

[272] I've been trying to ensnary you in a political conversation, which is funny because we're apolitical.

[273] There's kind of working on the Supreme Court, you're sort of very trained.

[274] To not.

[275] Yeah.

[276] To not ever speak on it.

[277] Like your ex -special forces or something.

[278] That's how I feel.

[279] Certainly not all of them feel like it, but I think I can't feel like it.

[280] Now we really want to do that.

[281] There's some loose lips floating out of sinking ships.

[282] Generally, when we have a professor on from the social scientists, I think almost more than their work am I interested in is why they ended up doing the work they did and how much actual self -exploration they do and even answering that question.

[283] Some people, shockingly, it's never even crossed their mind why they honed in on biomechanics of the right arm.

[284] That doesn't make you curious, why on earth are you drawn to that?

[285] So I guess my first thought would be what led you to this space, the happiness space, You have a podcast about happiness.

[286] You have four best -selling books, millions of copies, all on the topic of happiness.

[287] What led you to that?

[288] And I know exactly the minute when it happened.

[289] I had already switched to being writer from being a lawyer, so I had written three books, and I was just finishing a biography of JFK.

[290] So I had kind of some open time because I'd finished that book, but it hadn't been published yet, and I was stuck in a city bus.

[291] In the pouring rain, we were inching forward.

[292] I had nothing to do, so I was just staring out the window.

[293] So at that point, I rarely kind of ask myself big questions.

[294] So I asked myself this rhetorical question, what do I want from life anyway?

[295] And I thought, I want to be happy.

[296] And I thought, I say I want to be happy, but I don't spend one minute thinking, am I happy?

[297] Could I be happier?

[298] What does it mean to be happy?

[299] Can you even make yourself happier?

[300] And I thought, you know, I should do a happiness project.

[301] And that's the words that I thought.

[302] And so the next day I went out to the library and started researching, which is something I do all the time.

[303] get intensely interested in something and I'll go and do a ton of research.

[304] So I got this huge stack of books and I was researching and it was so fascinating.

[305] Can I ask what year this was?

[306] I don't know.

[307] Time has lost all meaning.

[308] What year was that?

[309] I don't know.

[310] I asked because I'm trying to think where in the movement.

[311] All of a sudden this started surfacing about 12 years ago.

[312] There started to be documentary.

[313] Shadyac made one.

[314] There was a great book, Happy, whatever I got it.

[315] It was a new genre.

[316] Well, it was going to be like 13 or 14 because I think the Happiness Project recently had its 10th anniversary.

[317] That was like a year or two ago, so it would have been a year or two before that.

[318] So I think I was part of that.

[319] You know, as often happens, you're part of like a thing.

[320] Simultaneous independent discovery.

[321] You don't even know it.

[322] You're part of the zeitgeist.

[323] There's so much science.

[324] There's philosophy.

[325] There's literature, memoirs, biographies, autobiographies.

[326] There's just so much material.

[327] And the more I learned about it, then I wanted to try everything.

[328] And then finally I thought, well, maybe this should be my next book project.

[329] Yes.

[330] So I wrote The Happiness Project.

[331] And after that, it's just such a fascinating feel.

[332] that everything I've done sense, like better than before, was about habits.

[333] Because if you're talking about happiness, you quickly start talking about habits.

[334] Because so often people are like, well, I know I'd be happier if I exercise, but I don't.

[335] So that's really a habit problem, not a happiness problem.

[336] Right.

[337] And then doing that, I was like, ooh, but I see there are these four distinct types of people when it comes to have a formation.

[338] So I'll write a book about that.

[339] And then I wrote a book about home because it's like, it's hard to be happy if you're not happy at home.

[340] And then my new book, Life in Five Senses, it's all about connecting with the Five Senses, because I realized that's really important to happy.

[341] getting this contact with the moment and like this direct, vivid connection to the world and to other people was this thing that I'd been ignoring.

[342] So I keep going deeper and deeper and deeper into it.

[343] And are you approaching a kind of global recognition that, I guess the most popular term for it would be like the hedonic treadmill, that probably implicit in all of these happiness pursuits is novelty.

[344] So even if you write a book about five habits, once we've done those, they will work.

[345] And then you too will become accustomed to them like any other thing your body is perfect at reaching homeostasis.

[346] And you will become numb to the things that worked and then you add new things.

[347] I almost wonder if an approach or a view of happiness at this point should be, it's going to be an ever -evolving thing that you have to regularly introduce new things and then probably rediscover old things.

[348] because the nature of the body is complacency, the nature of our spirit is complacency and all things, even if you do your five senses regularly, at some point, you might return to your first book and find great joy.

[349] Is that fair, do you think, or no?

[350] I think that's a very profound point, and it's interesting because I think it might be more true of some things you would do than others.

[351] For instance, if you had to pick one thing that's the key to happiness, like one secret to happiness, it would be relationships with other people.

[352] So anything that deep into relationships or broadens your relationships is going to make you happy.

[353] that's kind of ever novel on its own.

[354] So the idea I want to deepen my relationships is the same, but those people would be changing, the nature of the connection would be changing, but let's say you'd say, okay, exercise is something that makes people happier.

[355] Well, you could be like, well, maybe you're somebody like me who likes to do the same thing over and over for years, and I love that, but then other people are like, man, I've got to change it up.

[356] And so then it might be individual differences because some people are very drawn to repetition like me. Some people need constant novelty, like not even two years than two years.

[357] Some might be like, I do a different workout every day.

[358] I need lots of novelty.

[359] I want to train for this, but then I'm done with that.

[360] Now I'm going to do this.

[361] And so it might be self -knowledge where you have to think, how much do I need to change it up?

[362] How much do I need to bring that into my larger aims?

[363] Because the larger aims might stay the same, which is exercise, connection, energy, creativity, or whatever.

[364] I think that's a great point that it's going to be inherently individualistic in the same way that I get frustrated with, parenting books because I find it laughable that there would be one prescription for quote children and I only have two and their opposites.

[365] A hundred percent.

[366] Yes, so we too are unique and probably will respond differently.

[367] I too love repetition.

[368] There are certain exercises if I jog, my nature is I must go a little bit further every day, right?

[369] Like I'm endlessly challenging my and that becomes untenable and I recognize that's not an exercise for me because I'll drive myself nuts.

[370] So I am curious how the four personality types filed into this topic.

[371] Okay, you want to hear about the four?

[372] I do, yeah, I would love to.

[373] So you can take a quiz if you go to Gretchenruven .com slash quiz.

[374] We love taking quizzes.

[375] We do.

[376] I started it today, but I got tripped up on a couple of the questions, so I stopped.

[377] Okay, well, I'll do a personal reading for you right now.

[378] Yeah, and I got a five senses quiz.

[379] I love a quiz.

[380] Okay, so I'll just briefly describe these.

[381] Once you know them, they're everywhere.

[382] We could do games of Thrones, characters, you can do movie.

[383] I mean, they're everywhere.

[384] So I'll tell you these four.

[385] What this is looking at is something that sounds very boring, but it turns out to be really interesting, which is how you respond to expectations.

[386] So all of us face two kinds of expectations.

[387] Outer expectations like a work deadline and inner expectations like, I want to go for a run.

[388] I want to keep a New Year's resolution.

[389] So this is looking at do you meet expectations or do you resist expectations.

[390] So there are upholders, questioners, obligers, and rebels.

[391] Upholders readily meet outer and inner expectations.

[392] So they meet the work deadline, they keep the New Year's resolution without much fuss.

[393] They want to know what other people expect from them, but their expectations for themselves are just as important.

[394] So their motto is, discipline is my freedom.

[395] Then there are questioners.

[396] Questioners question all expectations.

[397] They'll do it if they think it makes sense.

[398] So they need reasons, justifications.

[399] They resist anything arbitrary.

[400] They need to know, okay.

[401] They need to know what.

[402] You just figured out which one I am.

[403] Well, there's smothers.

[404] Okay, hold on.

[405] Yeah, wait.

[406] So they're making everything in inner expectation.

[407] If something meets their inner standard, if it makes good sense, they'll do it no problem.

[408] If it fails their interstandard, they will push back.

[409] Their motto is, I'll comply, if you convince me why.

[410] Then there are obligers.

[411] Obligers readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations.

[412] These are the people who say, I can always keep my promises to other people.

[413] Why don't they keep my promises to myself?

[414] There are people who need self -care.

[415] They're people who are told, like, you need to make yourself a priority.

[416] obligers are great at coming through for other people but to meet their expectations for themselves they have to have outer accountability they want to read more, they have to join a book group if they want to exercise more they have to work out with a trainer or work out with a friend who's going to be angry if they don't show up for both men and women it is the biggest tendency of all four yeah you regularly see people thriving at their job especially in America of course where we prioritize it so much but you see people that are just acing their career and that's it anything personal any hobbies This is the thing.

[417] They don't understand that what they need is outer accountability.

[418] That's kind of a simple solution for them.

[419] So their motto is, you can count on me and I'm counting on you to count on me. And then the rebel is the final one.

[420] So rebels resist all expectations outer and inner alike.

[421] They want to do what they want to do in their own way, in their own time.

[422] They can do anything they want to do, anything they choose to do.

[423] But if you ask or tell them to do something, they are very likely to resist.

[424] And typically they don't even tell themselves what to do.

[425] Like they don't sign up for a 10 a .m., woodworking class on Saturday, because they think I don't know what I want to do on Saturday and just the fact that somebody's going to expect me to show up is going to bug me. So their motto is, you can't make me, and neither can I. I feel like there's a little bit of overlap between two and four, though.

[426] Oh, they all overlap.

[427] So, like, if you're a questioner, you overlap with upholder because you both meet inner expectations, but you also overlap with Rebel because you both resist outer expectations.

[428] So it's a perfectly interlocking system.

[429] I got you.

[430] Because I definitely identify with two and four tremendously.

[431] Yeah, I think you are those two.

[432] So what do you...

[433] Do you need more of one than the other?

[434] So I'm struggling with this, right?

[435] Because I think I'd probably be in that third one that most people are in.

[436] But I also am really good at self -care.

[437] And I do think I'm good at giving myself what I need.

[438] So would I be the first?

[439] You're okay saying no, too.

[440] You don't need to go to the party.

[441] Some you go to you'll leave early.

[442] Like, there have a lot of things that aren't people -pleasery.

[443] Do you feel like you can meet your promises to yourself?

[444] Yes, and I don't know.

[445] Well, you could be an upholder who tips to obliger, so that.

[446] That it's, you've got, you're basically in a polder, but you feel the weight of outer expectations pretty strongly.

[447] I definitely am far more likely to meet an outside expectation than an internal one.

[448] Like, I'm not good at resolutions.

[449] That's a great question.

[450] How do you feel about New Year's resolutions?

[451] I make them, and then I'm very bad at it.

[452] Then I think you're an obligeer.

[453] Okay, but then I love a massage.

[454] And I'll get one regularly.

[455] Yeah.

[456] It's not that obligeers can't do that.

[457] They just do much better with outer accountability.

[458] The obliges, Kristen, do it.

[459] T. Like, she doesn't let anyone else down.

[460] Anyone can call her and ask for a favor, and she immediately says yes.

[461] I'm immediately like, I don't know if that's a doable thing.

[462] Have you thought about whether you can execute this even if I help?

[463] Like, I start going through, like, is this even achievable before we all waste our time?

[464] Right, right, right.

[465] Trying to do it.

[466] Like, you first got to acknowledge whether or not this can be done.

[467] I recognize that I'm very hard to live with because I just won't go along with it.

[468] She is nuanced, right?

[469] Because hers is saying yes to everything.

[470] To me is different than what you say yes to you show up for and you produce.

[471] Well, she has an impossibly high conversion rate.

[472] She's raising money for the schools.

[473] She's on the talent thing.

[474] She's doing 55 things and a huge job and doing 20 favors a week for people.

[475] I'll tell you something that sometimes happens to obligeers.

[476] So when expectations become too intense, especially like in one area, Like you have a boss who just keeps assigning you more and more and more.

[477] If obliger starts feeling ignored, taking advantage of, exploited, they sometimes have obligeer rebellion, which is when they snap.

[478] And they say, this I will not do.

[479] And it could be something funny like, I'm just not going to answer your emails for two weeks.

[480] Or it can be something like, I'm quitting this job right now today.

[481] Or we're going to get a divorce.

[482] Or I'm going to cut off a 25 -year friendship because it's too much.

[483] It's over.

[484] And so if you feel that because obliter's do.

[485] They come through, they come through, they come through.

[486] And sometimes it's like the balloon burst.

[487] It feels like getting taken advantage.

[488] Well, they are being taken advantage of 100 % they think they are.

[489] But upholders, questioners, rebels, we all go to the obligers because they're the ones that are most likely to say us.

[490] Yeah.

[491] Okay, but so, Dax, what do you think you are?

[492] So you think you're either a questioner or a rebel?

[493] Yeah.

[494] More questioner than rebel because I do have a ton of personal goals.

[495] I love New Year's resolutions.

[496] I meet most of them.

[497] From listening to the show, I think you are a questioner.

[498] Okay.

[499] That was my impression.

[500] I couldn't tell with you much.

[501] I couldn't tell.

[502] I'm in a polder, which is funny because I remember when I was writing my book about habits better than before.

[503] I was talking to somebody who I now know was a rebel at the time I didn't know because I hadn't made up the four tendencies yet.

[504] And I told her I was writing a book about habits.

[505] I love the idea of habits.

[506] To me, it's like a super juicy topic.

[507] And she literally took a step back from me in revulsion.

[508] And she's like, why would you want to write about such an awful subject?

[509] Because she didn't like the idea of habits, right?

[510] Some rebels do like the idea of habits, but some do not.

[511] because they want the novelty and they don't want to feel chained.

[512] And there's legitimate criticism of the achieving economy, the American capitalist success, how we measure it, the endless need to be accomplishing things.

[513] There's legitimate criticism of that whole process that we've undertaken.

[514] I think it's worth questioning.

[515] But it's funny because with upholders, upholders are also really good at things like relaxing and taking time for themselves because they're just like, you know what, I have to leave at six every day because I've decided I need to be home at six and then they'll just do it.

[516] Some of them don't even have very high expectations.

[517] Some are kind of slackers, but what expectations they have they meet.

[518] Like some people think, well, all creative people must be rebels.

[519] We don't know anything about somebody's creativity from their tendency or how extroverted they are or how adventures they are, even how analytical they are.

[520] Nothing over indexes.

[521] There's no fun.

[522] I think if I had big data, maybe I could tell.

[523] Like you could be super analytical and be an obliger.

[524] Because it's not about your thinking, it's about how you meet expectations.

[525] So it's this very narrow thing.

[526] So it's interesting.

[527] It doesn't lend itself to a lot of other associations that you might think would come with it.

[528] Yeah, I guess that's sort of what I was saying.

[529] It's like people pleasing seems separate from this.

[530] Yes, that's a very subtle point because some people think the explanation for their behavior is that they're people pleasing.

[531] I'm like, no, it's just that you're meeting outer expectations.

[532] Some obligers don't care about other people at all.

[533] But they'll only do something if they're going to get in trouble.

[534] It's a very, very narrow thing, but it's helpful, like, if you want to know about how to change your habits.

[535] Or you want to know why your two children are so different.

[536] You're like, well, if there are different tendencies, you might be doing the same thing as a parent.

[537] But they're responding completely differently.

[538] Oh, right, yeah, yeah.

[539] No, one of our kids needs to know every single detail to the end of details.

[540] And then doesn't believe you that there's not more details.

[541] She needs the full lay of the land before she even wants to move forward.

[542] And I can very much relate to that.

[543] That's very questioner.

[544] Interesting.

[545] Why, why, why, why, why?

[546] I need to know this makes sense.

[547] I need to know that this is all been thought through.

[548] Here's a question for you.

[549] Do you think that is a nature or a nurture thing?

[550] I think it's genetically determined.

[551] I think it's part of the hardwiring that you bring in.

[552] A lot of people have it really early.

[553] Yeah.

[554] Yeah.

[555] So, yes.

[556] I will say it seems at least quite plausible and logical that in a childhood full of deceptive adults that, you couldn't count on.

[557] You didn't have the luxury of not getting all the details.

[558] You had to know what everyone's motives were.

[559] You had to be able to foresee manipulation around the corner.

[560] Or you would get gobbled up by it.

[561] I do feel like it could be an acquired response to lots of deception.

[562] It's absolutely true that with time and experience, it affects how your tendency comes out.

[563] but I wonder if a different tendency would respond from that tendency's own way to that circumstance.

[564] That's why we need more identical twin lab rats.

[565] That's right.

[566] Let's unleash them on the world.

[567] Yeah, if you're in North Korea and you're a questioner, you're not going to go around asking people questions, but you're in Silicon Valley.

[568] It's like, this is your greatest strength because people are like, look at this person who's so data -driven.

[569] Or some obligers are like, I'm so good at meeting other people's expectations, but I let myself down.

[570] I feel terrible about it.

[571] And then I've talked to people who are like, I give 110 % of my clients, I'm so hardcore, I'm the best salesman there is.

[572] Like, do you think I have time to exercise?

[573] No way, because I'm there for my clients.

[574] So they really laud themselves for the very same trait.

[575] So I think you're exactly right that context will affect how it comes out and how you understand what's going on.

[576] Yeah.

[577] But I feel like deep down, it's still the same thing at play.

[578] Yeah.

[579] And again, I think those are always the most pointless question.

[580] Because nature versus nurture, because culture is nature now.

[581] They both all reverse.

[582] We have changed our biology through our culture.

[583] I will say that I was scanning through some of your other books and now was watching you on Soul Oprah's program.

[584] Is it overwhelming to sit down with Oprah?

[585] Were you terrified or were you comfortable?

[586] It's kind of out of body experience because I'm like, you're so much like Oprah.

[587] It's kind of uncanny.

[588] But you know what somebody told me?

[589] A friend of mine had done it before and I called for advice and she said, she's so good at her job.

[590] Often when you're being interviewed, you kind of have to steer it.

[591] You just, like, let her do it and just try to be there in the conversation.

[592] And, like, literally cannot remember one thing.

[593] It was like I had no ability to form a short -term memory.

[594] I can't remember it.

[595] And did the time travel, really, curiously?

[596] Like, for you, did it feel like two seconds?

[597] No, it felt like a week.

[598] It felt like so much time went by.

[599] Like, I was like, I'm amazed it's the same day.

[600] Wow.

[601] Okay.

[602] I'm fascinated with the flexibility of time.

[603] Yes.

[604] It's kind of like with the five senses, how we all.

[605] are living in different universes without realizing it, but you're exactly right.

[606] And the way that if things are novel, the time seems to slow down.

[607] I love, love habits, but they speed time.

[608] Yes.

[609] Retains speed time up.

[610] They speed time and they speed days and you have to shake it up.

[611] It's like the pandemic, you know?

[612] Yeah.

[613] It went so fast because every day was the same.

[614] I imagine you and I have the same struggles.

[615] So I'm a creature of habit.

[616] I'll eat the same meal or eat three meals, all week long.

[617] I'm most comfortable doing that.

[618] I don't want to spend time thinking about those kinds of things.

[619] I have all these things I want to do.

[620] But yeah, you look up and you're like, because I journal every morning.

[621] So I write the date every morning.

[622] And almost every morning I'm shook.

[623] I'm like, whoa.

[624] Yeah.

[625] It fucks me up.

[626] And I do know it's because of my routines.

[627] And if I go on vacation, obviously, the first four days feel like two weeks and it's all because of the novel stuff.

[628] Right.

[629] Well, and like with your podcast, don't you remember like the first six months?

[630] It's like you can remember every single episode and like each one and then as you get it's the brain being efficient you know it's like making room for other stuff even for people like us who maybe aren't that drawn to novelty I force myself to do things like travel you're mixed messages on that because I have wanderlust yeah but I have massive wanderlust massive wanderlust for sure but also with your work isn't it really different all the time it feels like every person you talk to is different but these can get into a routine.

[631] I mean, we've done 600 and some of these interviews.

[632] And, you know, they definitely operate now out of the subconscious.

[633] Like, our bodies have learned how to do this without giving it much thought, which is great.

[634] You feel guilty a little bit.

[635] But back to the novelty thing, yes, I'll force myself, I'll be about to turn right out of my driveway and I'll go, just turn left.

[636] Because in LA, you could take 80 ways to any given spot if you chose to.

[637] And I kind of make myself do that.

[638] The research shows that people who do novel things are, happier, even if it's things like taking a different route through neighborhood or trying a different diner.

[639] But I do think there's a joy in repetition.

[640] I mean, for my book, I go to the Met every single day.

[641] And part of it was because I love doing something every single day.

[642] You have to think about the trade -offs.

[643] And also, the things that go wrong often make the best memories.

[644] So it's like if all of a sudden the ceiling caved in, we'd be like, oh, this is a disaster.

[645] But then it would probably be this hilarious thing.

[646] That might be the biggest episode of the year.

[647] Right.

[648] It would draw us closer together.

[649] And you guys would laugh about it forever.

[650] If you're more of an anxious personality, though, I feel like you like repetition.

[651] Because it's comforting.

[652] Predictable.

[653] Yeah.

[654] As opposed to like taking a left, no. Because then I'm just like, I'm lost.

[655] And then that gives me anxiety as opposed to, oh, look how cool these houses are.

[656] I'm just like, how am I going to get there?

[657] But see, I think your point is exactly back to Dax's your point before, which is everybody's different.

[658] If I had to say, what is the biggest mistake people make in this sort of area of happiness?

[659] It's like thinking that there's one best way or one right way or research shows that it's always better because what you should say is it's interesting to know kind of what the research is, but knowing myself, knowing when I succeed, knowing how to manage my time, my energy, my moods, what do I know works for me?

[660] And if it's like, you know what, driving in LA is stressful.

[661] I want to take exactly the same route.

[662] I don't want to be rethinking it.

[663] That's not going to wake me up in an interesting way.

[664] Whereas for somebody else, they're like, I live in this big, beautiful city.

[665] There are all these neighborhoods to discover every day.

[666] can be different.

[667] It can be an adventure.

[668] Who's right?

[669] Who's wrong?

[670] I went out the street yesterday.

[671] I've lived across the street from it for 17 years.

[672] Went to a barbecue, had to take a street.

[673] I haven't been up.

[674] Drove by this super famous Frank Lloyd Wright house.

[675] Maybe the Saudan house or so enormous with the Mayan stone relief thing.

[676] Oh yeah.

[677] I've seen pictures of that.

[678] Yeah.

[679] And I just saw it in fucking real life.

[680] I've seen it in pictures probably 300 times.

[681] And it's in your neighborhood.

[682] I'm turning left and I'm like, oh my God.

[683] There it is and it's glorious it like over delivers yeah it's a half mile up the street and i was titillated by the experience the world has so much to offer yes stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare okay so let's get into we've danced around your previous books i do just want to state just for the record that two things that you honed in on previous books which i really love and are my religion is you can act your way into feeling different as opposed to feeling your way into acting different, which I think is key.

[684] It's a very AA thing.

[685] And it's also easier because it's much easier to control your conscious actions than to try to control your thoughts.

[686] Yeah, you can't go.

[687] I want to feel happy in four minutes unless you have drugs in your hand.

[688] You can't do it.

[689] But you can stand up and walk 20 feet.

[690] Exactly.

[691] Or you can listen to an upbeat song or you can call a friend or you can go take a walk to the Frank Lloyd Wright House.

[692] So yeah, you can go from the outside end, 100%.

[693] And I remember in a psychics class in college learning that these two scientists were trying to document and catalog every single position the face could go in.

[694] I don't know if you've seen this work.

[695] It's like Paul Ekman type thing.

[696] Probably.

[697] It's very famous.

[698] This is like Stanford experience, marshmallow.

[699] This is pretty well -known social science stuff.

[700] But in the process of doing it, what they discovered is they were going to like, say, start tracking all of the upset faces.

[701] So they were like doing crowns and they were.

[702] And they physically have to move their faces.

[703] And there's something recording the images.

[704] And they're trying to really figure out what is the full capacity of the nonverbal facial expressions.

[705] And what they accidentally discovered is that when they force themselves to laugh, they felt elated.

[706] Okay, so here's a bunch of examples of that.

[707] One is they tell people to hold a pencil between their nose and their upper lip.

[708] It makes people happier because they're making like a fake smile without knowing it.

[709] People who have had Botox experience lower levels of anger because they can't make angry faces.

[710] And I had a thing where my eyes were watering They didn't hurt, but they were just watering I had some kind of weird thing And I felt sad Because I was like, oh, I'm just like wiping away the tears And I'm like, no, I had like an eye condition But your body's like, well, there's all this crying going on Something must be wrong It was a discovery that it works both directions Conventionally it was that my emotions Will make my face move in this way But in fact moving your face in that way Can make your emotions respond But so is this why like the actor who played Tony Soprano Oh my God They were saying it took such a toll Yes, toll on him.

[711] Is that because by acting out this anger all the time, you're making yourself go through these experiences or is acting partly controlling that outside inexperience?

[712] We've heard both.

[713] I think the best example would be from Handmaid's Tale.

[714] Oh, Elizabeth Moss, who we interviewed.

[715] And have you watched Handmaids?

[716] No, I read the book a lot of time.

[717] She is crying and being abused for now.

[718] She's going on Year 6 of doing it.

[719] And we really said, like, that must take the biggest toll on.

[720] And she's like, oh, no, I'm sorry.

[721] so happy -go -lucky.

[722] Like, it's weird that I even play that role, and we're laughing on set before I did it.

[723] She can just do it.

[724] Interesting.

[725] Well, for acting, for sure, there can be an outside and approach with wardrobe or a walk.

[726] Oh, right.

[727] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[728] Like, adding these physical characteristics that then make you emotionally connect into a thing.

[729] Well, people talk about that with, like, dress the part or cloak yourself in authority.

[730] We use these outside cues to help.

[731] The other one I love that comes from your previous work is if you enjoy the process, the outcome becomes less important.

[732] This is the grand goal in life for me. If I had a singular goal, it's just...

[733] Enjoy the process.

[734] Yeah, it's all it is.

[735] Life is process.

[736] You think it's results, but results are one second.

[737] And so often in this world, you can't really even influence outcomes.

[738] But if you enjoy the process along the way, then you've had your fun, no matter what happens.

[739] I think our first line of work teaches you that in a hurry.

[740] It's like, everyone tries as hard on every movie.

[741] I've not been on a single movie set where people were phoning it in.

[742] Everyone's trying their very hardest.

[743] and through innumerable variables plus when the release date is what happened that week?

[744] Did your movie come out on 9 -11?

[745] I don't know.

[746] What do we do about that?

[747] Yeah, things you can't control.

[748] People are in the mood for this.

[749] There's something happens in the news that makes it timely.

[750] Yes.

[751] Well, there's some intrinsic things we just don't have any control over.

[752] We were talking about this recently about a podcast we both really, really, really like and is doing really well.

[753] But it's very well produced, like very highly produced.

[754] And we were like, oh, my God, like this makes us look idiotic.

[755] We're doing 10 % of what these people are doing as far as putting out a show.

[756] Dax said that and I said, seems to be working though.

[757] Like whatever we're doing seems to be working.

[758] Sometimes you're on the good side of...

[759] Right, where it's like, I guess there's something sort of intangible that seems to be translating or working.

[760] You can't control it.

[761] It's sort of a corollary of enjoy the process is there are many ways for something to succeed.

[762] So there are many ways for a podcast to succeed.

[763] Just like there are many ways for a book to succeed.

[764] There are many ways for vacation to succeed.

[765] There's many ways for an actor to succeed.

[766] Sometimes if you lock into one metric, you're like, well, did we succeed or fail?

[767] And it's like, well, there's lots of ways.

[768] Have you cross -pollinated that with your four types?

[769] Because I would be real curious to see if the people who were more self -motivated for their own and not extrinsically motivated, innately enjoy process more.

[770] Whereas I'd imagine an obliger.

[771] It's singularly about results.

[772] Oh, interesting.

[773] Yeah, that could be a fun exploration for you as an overlap books.

[774] You're writing so many books you can start doing mashups of genres.

[775] I'm trying to think of what kind of questions you could ask people that would get at that.

[776] That's a very thought -provoking angle to think about it.

[777] Let's put it this way.

[778] I think the great movie directors are always making the movie they want to see and not anybody else.

[779] I don't think they give a single thought to anyone else.

[780] And then they get lucky.

[781] Either the thing they wanted to see was also broadly appealing or it wasn't.

[782] That's how I pick book subjects.

[783] I'm always like, what's a book that I want to read, but I can't find it?

[784] And then I write that book.

[785] But then we're getting into the nuance of approval versus expectations.

[786] Because I think they're not doing it for approval, the good movie directors.

[787] They're doing it because they want to see this made.

[788] But they're probably executing on expectation.

[789] Well, that's a good point.

[790] They have to show up and they have to have this dump by this day and I have to please this person.

[791] But sometimes people just can't do it.

[792] If somebody's saying I have to be there on Monday, it's like, I just won't.

[793] You can't be the boss of me. And that sometimes is fine and sometimes does not.

[794] I mean, so sometimes it does get in their way.

[795] That one feels more pathological than the other.

[796] I see people really getting in their way that way, especially in this town.

[797] Well, I got to say the thing about rebels is I've come to appreciate the power of it.

[798] And I think we can all learn from it.

[799] I think they're the most misunderstood.

[800] The rebel tendency is the most different from the other three.

[801] And I think often people try to work with them in counterproductive ways.

[802] And so rebels are like, if you just get out of my way and let me do this in my own time, I'll get it done.

[803] But if you're like on my case, you know, I'm going to resist the real world?

[804] How could that person ever be your employee ever?

[805] Well, listen, no, I'm dealing with it right now.

[806] My wife is about to do a show.

[807] she's about to shoot a pilot.

[808] They're looking at directors.

[809] I have not directed in a while because I do this and I don't want to direct.

[810] And it's been lightly joked about seven or eight times from the producers like, if you want to jump on this, we sure wouldn't mind having you.

[811] And I've literally had the thought, if I never had to talk to any of you guys and you let me show up and direct this without having to come convince you after you've already asked me to, there's a world in which I would do it.

[812] but I simply can't go try to win or earn a job you've asked me to do.

[813] I don't want to have to go play the pageantry part of it.

[814] Uh -huh.

[815] And that sounds so arrogant, but I just really would choose not to do something if it was going to be the jump -through hoops version.

[816] So with something like this, could you say something like, if you just want to write me an offer in an email, I'll consider it, but I'm not going to, like, have meetings about it?

[817] I couldn't because I don't have enough leverage to.

[818] Okay.

[819] If I were bigger, I probably could.

[820] So they're inviting you to apply.

[821] They're not saying we're offering you.

[822] No, this is how show business works.

[823] They're like, we got to have him, we got to have him.

[824] Will he do it?

[825] And then the person goes, yes, and they go like, okay, we need to see him read next to so -and -so.

[826] It's like, well, no, no, you just said, yeah.

[827] So it's pretty common.

[828] That part I get, that's annoying.

[829] But then what I know about you is if they just straight up offered, if you said yes, you'd still have an issue when you got there if producers were like, hey, can you try to also get it from this angle?

[830] But, like, you want no...

[831] Well, let's be clear.

[832] Now you're inside of a personal history moment.

[833] Okay, good.

[834] Yes, this happened.

[835] This happened.

[836] They lost a director on a commercial.

[837] My wife was in.

[838] They asked me to come in and do it.

[839] I said, yes, literally is a favor.

[840] I'm going to be uncredited and I don't want to get paid.

[841] But I'll finish it because she needs to get finished.

[842] Right.

[843] So it's a favor.

[844] And I was not anticipating that there would be ad executives in New York who know nothing about directing on a Zoom call barking orders to Monica who then had to tell them to me. Now, listen, I have more respect for a person.

[845] producer of a TV show and the writers.

[846] So no, if the writers said they wanted X, Y, or Z, or the creator of the show, I would a thousand percent want to be collaborative.

[847] An ad exec who didn't write the spot in New York telling me where the flowers should be, fuck you, that's what happened.

[848] Right.

[849] But like, that's the reality of the world.

[850] It's a commercial, and that happens.

[851] So to me, when those things come up, I don't think you're generally a rebel, but if we're talking about these rebels, that would be impossible for me to work with.

[852] It's funny, I bet you have compartments.

[853] So if you needed something done, you want cabinets built for your new house.

[854] You're not going to ask at all to see the guy's shop or the woman's CAD design program.

[855] You're going to go, that person knows how to build cabinets, build them.

[856] But there are other jobs where people feel entitled to micromanage, and I think that's their own arrogance.

[857] I don't think these ad executives had any business saying anything about where the flowers.

[858] Personally, I don't think that was their domain.

[859] but I do think sometimes you would be happy to have a rebel if you saw what they did and you wanted what they make you'd go, I want what you make and you'd stay out of it.

[860] That's true.

[861] And that's the thing is rebels who get themselves to a place where their rebel strengths are recognized and rewarded are very happy, but rebels who are in a place where people want to micromanage them.

[862] But here's an odd thing.

[863] When rebels pair up, whether in romance or at work, they often pair up with obligers.

[864] So it's interesting that you really don't like the idea of working with a rebel.

[865] Yeah, with me. Who she works with.

[866] No, so I think they're a question in her.

[867] Okay, so great.

[868] So we're kind of caught up on some of the things you've already done.

[869] Now, what led you to this now new approach into the pursuit of happiness?

[870] So again, I had this actual moment that I can point so I could find it on my calendar.

[871] I get pink eye a lot.

[872] Congratulations.

[873] Yeah, as one does.

[874] And I got a particularly stubborn case.

[875] I went to the eye doctor.

[876] And as I was getting ready to leave, he said to me very casually, like, hey, wear your sunscreen or, hey, be sure to drink enough water.

[877] He's like, hey, be sure to come back for your checkup because, as you know, you're more at risk of losing your vision.

[878] And I was like, wait, what are you talking about?

[879] I don't know anything about this.

[880] I did not know that.

[881] And he said, yes, you're extremely irasited, which I knew.

[882] He said, and because you're so near -sighted, you're at greater risk for a detached retina, and that can affect your vision.

[883] And I had a friend who had just lost some of his vision to a detached retinas.

[884] And you have that watery eye issue.

[885] Yeah.

[886] They're probably related.

[887] Yeah, there's sort of a whole eye theme here.

[888] So I was very shocked by this.

[889] And, of course, I intellectually knew you can lose anything at any time.

[890] And I could have a rich, meaningful life, even if I did lose my vision or one in my senses.

[891] And I was just like, here I am.

[892] I'm so overwhelmed by the thought that I could lose my vision.

[893] And yet, walking over here, I saw none of this.

[894] I had noticed not one thing.

[895] I was stuck in my head.

[896] I'm taking everything for granted.

[897] And as I was having this realization, I start walking.

[898] And it was like every knob got turned up.

[899] Every site was crystal clear.

[900] Every sound was on a separate track.

[901] I could smell every smell.

[902] And New York City is very smelling.

[903] Every smell with perfect clarity.

[904] I was walking.

[905] It was like almost psychedelic experience.

[906] And I was just blown away.

[907] And I'm like, this is happening all the time.

[908] And I'm just missing all of it.

[909] I'm stuck in my head.

[910] I'm in this fog.

[911] And as I was walking, I just realized this was a missing puzzle piece.

[912] I've been thinking about happiness in all these different ways.

[913] But I knew there was something I was missing.

[914] I knew that there was a puzzle piece.

[915] that I just hadn't grasped.

[916] And by the time I got home and I saw my husband and my daughters and I was like, oh my gosh, this is it.

[917] It's the five senses.

[918] This is what's going to get me this direct contact that I've been craving without understanding that I was craving it.

[919] Just side note, we just interviewed these two wonderful women, Susan and Ivy.

[920] One is in charge of Google's product design.

[921] The other one is a neurobiologist.

[922] She's a dude.

[923] John Hopkins.

[924] and they've collaborated, and it's all about aesthetic.

[925] This is your brain on art. It's really cool, and it really gets into the real definition of aesthetic, which I didn't realize, which is your senses.

[926] All the information your body takes in without your knowing it.

[927] And one thing that was really interesting is they designed these four separate rooms as part of this art conference, and everyone was decorated different with different furniture, and they put all these biometric monitors on the people as they walked through.

[928] when they weren't allowed to use their phone or do anything.

[929] They just had to exist in these spaces and the computer recorded.

[930] If you ask people what their favorite room was, 50 % of the time, they would have said a room that was different from what their body liked, meaning they had the lowest cortisol levels, their heart rate was the most stable, all these different metrics for contentment, relaxing, all these optimal states of being.

[931] People didn't know what one was most pleasurable for their body.

[932] Interesting.

[933] Yeah, super fascinating.

[934] So there's like what you think you like, which is often in response to some other childhood thing, and then there's what you're genetically designed to enjoy.

[935] Well, and there's also a factor where we're hardwired for sight.

[936] Like we have more real estate in the brain, and we're sort of by just design, more site focus.

[937] And if there's a conflict, site usually trumps other senses.

[938] And I had this experience where, like, I was looking in my closet, and I was thinking, I have these shirts that I like, why don't I ever wear them?

[939] And so I was like, why don't I ever wear them?

[940] And I realized I don't like the way they feel.

[941] But because I like the way they look, like you're saying.

[942] So now when I go into a dressing room, I shut my eyes and I'm like, how does it feel?

[943] Is it too tight?

[944] Is it scratchy?

[945] Is it too heavy?

[946] Because if I see it and I like it.

[947] Always prioritize that.

[948] It just sight wins.

[949] And I'm ignoring this other bodily.

[950] But in the long run, the body.

[951] And there might even be a smell as well.

[952] Right.

[953] Yes.

[954] Yeah.

[955] Because sometimes I'll wear a shirt.

[956] Where the fuck it came from?

[957] Like the launders?

[958] And I'm like, Yeah, it's not bad Or like a product Where you're like I like the texture But I never feel like putting on this sunscreen It's like I don't like the way it smells Or you like the way it smells But you don't like the texture Yeah So you're right It's like I don't think we're always that good At sorting through Right And really the only way you would know Is if you had this complicated Biometric device on that really told you Yeah This is why everybody wants everything immersive Now it's like you want that full body experience Even if you can't read the metrics on it you still want all that information coming into your body.

[959] I think people are craving that.

[960] And by the way, it's coming in.

[961] You're just observing it or you're not.

[962] Yes.

[963] And that's what it is a call to is like observe all this info that's coming in around you at all times.

[964] But it's hard.

[965] I live in New York City and my producer is always like, you've got to stop.

[966] There's a siren going.

[967] I don't hear the siren.

[968] Of course.

[969] But he said in L .A. here, people don't hear helicopters.

[970] Oh, yeah.

[971] White noise.

[972] Or like, you can't smell your home the way a guest smells it.

[973] Because you of odor fatigue.

[974] Have you experienced this?

[975] I am always fearful that it smells and I have no idea.

[976] Her apartment smells like socks and bacon.

[977] Sox?

[978] Oh, no. Bacon I'm okay with actually.

[979] But like chicken smell, you know, always like wear.

[980] You don't know it.

[981] But that's childhood trauma.

[982] That's from being different.

[983] It is a little bit childhood trauma.

[984] You're like, oh my God, if people smell this Indian food, they'll know I'm different.

[985] But it's just interesting to realize that there is information there that others would perceive instantly, and your brain is just removing it.

[986] And intellectually, you know it, but when you confront, it's just like the dress.

[987] Remember the dress, white and gold or blue and black?

[988] Yeah, you were just on Good Morning America, and you gave that example.

[989] And they showed the dress.

[990] And, of course, same exact reaction I had two years ago.

[991] I'm like, yeah, it's fucking blue and black.

[992] Well, you're right.

[993] What do you see, my mind?

[994] Wait, now I forget.

[995] It's white and gold or blue and black.

[996] You see blue and black.

[997] Oh, like, you know, there's no way I could find my way to white and gold.

[998] Like, that seems impossible.

[999] I cannot see blue and black.

[1000] Yeah.

[1001] But it's funny because usually you can see either.

[1002] You could see the duck.

[1003] you can see the rabbit, you can see the faces, or you can see the faces.

[1004] You cannot see white and gold, and I cannot see blue and black.

[1005] They mess with the picture sometimes so that you can see.

[1006] Oh, they help you.

[1007] Yeah, like they're doing it here, but I don't know with the original.

[1008] Well, I just painted that one.

[1009] Where's the original?

[1010] If you go to Good Morning America and watch her on it.

[1011] Or it's on, it was on Facebook at 2015, I think, is with the original post.

[1012] Yeah, go ahead and find that original.

[1013] Okay, but what you're proposing in this book is also something I've been hearing, I don't know, in the last couple years is a complete.

[1014] component or a tenant of mindfulness as well.

[1015] It's interesting, though, because in the mindfulness community, it's often kind of in a meditative way, like the 5 ,4, 3, 2, 1, or like, let's sit down and look at a piece of art for 20 minutes, or let's have a sip of coffee for like 10 minutes.

[1016] And that's great for people, but I wanted, like, more playful ways to do it, like more energetic, more fun.

[1017] For me, I was like, I really don't want to taste a cup of coffee for 20 minutes.

[1018] I have to give my wife credit.

[1019] The reason I'm aware of it most recently is we have an 8 and 10 year old, you know, and they lose their shit, as you would guess, as 8 and 10 year olds do.

[1020] And one of her things will be, see if we can muster up with courage to have five breasts.

[1021] And then it's, what do you smell, touch something?

[1022] She takes them through their senses to put them in right now.

[1023] Because generally your anxiety is about the future or the past.

[1024] It's rarely about the second.

[1025] When writing about the smell aspect, you point out this really.

[1026] obvious but novel thought, which is smells one of the only senses that you can't save.

[1027] It's very transient, and it forces a present state of mind.

[1028] Well, and I experienced this.

[1029] I was in Central Park, and they have all these beautiful, like, apple blossoms blooming, and I walked by, and it was just the most beautiful fragrant smell.

[1030] So I took a deep breath, and I took a deep breath, and then odor fatigue.

[1031] I couldn't smell it anymore.

[1032] So you're right.

[1033] It's like only in the moment.

[1034] A scratch and sniff is like the closest you can get to a photograph of a smell.

[1035] But even then you can't keep experience.

[1036] It's like the song where you can wear it out because you can just play it and repeat all day long.

[1037] It's like you can't do that with the scent.

[1038] It is only of the moment and a fleeting moment.

[1039] Yeah.

[1040] It's kind of beautiful.

[1041] It's like cherry blossoms.

[1042] They're the cherry blossoms of senses.

[1043] Yeah, that's right.

[1044] Yeah, they're fleeting.

[1045] They're fleeting.

[1046] You said there's a quiz for this too?

[1047] Yeah, it's for what's your neglected sense.

[1048] Again, Gretchenruven .com slash quiz.

[1049] Oh, my God.

[1050] Five senses quiz.

[1051] Okay, first of all, touch in on some of the science behind this.

[1052] The more you know, the more you notice, so it was really fun to just learn about how they work.

[1053] And one thing that, again, I kind of knew intellectually, but I had never really experimented with it, which is the connection between smell and taste.

[1054] Because if you're just tasting something with no ability to smell, you're going to only taste the big five of sweet, sour, salty, bitter, and umami.

[1055] You really need smell if you're going to have, like, complex flavors.

[1056] And you can do this just like with a jelly belly.

[1057] plug your nose, put it in your mouth, and you'll get a big head of sweet.

[1058] And then when you unplug your nose, it'll turn into root beer or bubble gum or peanut collater, all those crazy flavors they have.

[1059] Unfortunately, I think because of COVID, many more people became aware of this because a lot of people thought that they had lost their sense of taste, but it was actually their sense of smell.

[1060] And so now I think people have become more aware of that connection than they were like five years ago.

[1061] And you pointed out something so bizarre that I had no idea about, which is I knew about the ears.

[1062] So your ears, they're not homogeneous.

[1063] They are different, as are your eyes.

[1064] Your eyes each see a little bit differently.

[1065] Your ears hear a little bit differently.

[1066] And you point out your nostrils are different.

[1067] Oh, weird.

[1068] Yes.

[1069] Like if you ever see sort of experts, they'll wave something below their nose.

[1070] That's why, because it's getting both nostrils.

[1071] You had the host pinch one side of their nose.

[1072] No, and you can really smell.

[1073] Can you smell this candle?

[1074] Inside joke.

[1075] Sorry.

[1076] There's a robot on the show.

[1077] And he sounds like this.

[1078] Thank you for just jumping I really like him She likes the robot much more than Dex Well the robot's just so sweet He is he's much nicer than me He's not a rebel He's an obligatory Yeah for sure sure sure Well he's been designed to serve humans He doesn't have any internal goals Is there any kind of social science experiments Where it's like people who view are 30 minutes a day Or people who do blank see this increase So are there any kind of studies that have been done on the senses and how they can improve your experience and what commitment would it be before you saw results?

[1079] Well, I think the thing that would be relevant that's really interesting in this context is giving yourself recess, giving yourself breaks.

[1080] You were talking earlier about kind of this super high achieving culture of productivity, productivity, moving forward.

[1081] But that actually there's a lot of research that shows that people who take breaks, that let their minds wander, they are more likely to have.

[1082] creative breakthroughs to make unexpected juxtpositions, unusual associations.

[1083] Right.

[1084] And so back to this idea of outside in, it's hard for me to just feel like, take a break.

[1085] For me, I kind of need something concrete to do.

[1086] So I think for some people, it's very helpful to think, okay, this is a way that I can do it.

[1087] I'm going to go outside and experience nature for 15 minutes, and that's going to be how I give myself that break.

[1088] Or like with snacking, you want to get that little jolt of energy.

[1089] well you're reaching for one of your senses but you can reach for a different sense like you love music you could be like I'm going to listen to new music for 10 minutes or I love smell I'm going to go smell a hardware store I'm going to smell some pine cone or whatever it would be because that'll allow me to get that little jolt of energy that bit of distraction so you're arguing that that impulse to eat is really just a call to stimulate your senses I think it's more than that because there's a lot going on when you're giving yourself a snack for a treat I think it's a combination.

[1090] I think it's a distraction, and it is a little bit of a sensory jolt.

[1091] And so it feels more satisfying than just skipping it.

[1092] Since I've suggested, a lot of people have said, like, oh, you know, that really works.

[1093] Yeah.

[1094] So you substitute one sense for the sense of taste.

[1095] You have a prescription for creativity, and it's through sight.

[1096] And I think this is so clever because I think if you ask your average person, like, go outside and look around and then allow yourself to become creative.

[1097] I don't know if anything's going to happen.

[1098] Whereas you give yourself specific objectives.

[1099] So I'm going on a walk and I'm going to spot everything that's purple.

[1100] Or I'm going to pay attention to the building material of every building I pass.

[1101] And then what happens while you're doing that?

[1102] Well, you just so many things you just overlook.

[1103] But when you give yourself something to look for, you start seeing things in a very different way.

[1104] I mean, you see that even with like store logos.

[1105] When you're like, oh, look at the people in the Tostito's logo.

[1106] Or look at the 31 in the Baskin -Robbins logo.

[1107] Or look at the arrow in the FedEx is the craziest one.

[1108] Once you see that, you can't unsee it.

[1109] It's almost satanic.

[1110] It's almost demonic.

[1111] I mean, it's so hidden, yeah.

[1112] I can't even imagine it.

[1113] And it's so obvious.

[1114] It's blatant.

[1115] It's blatant.

[1116] And yet you've never seen it.

[1117] Looking for those things is very exciting.

[1118] The hidden aid on the eight of diamonds.

[1119] What?

[1120] There's a hidden aid on the eight of diamonds.

[1121] Standard playing card you're saying?

[1122] Yeah.

[1123] You have to look at the negative space.

[1124] Look at the negative space.

[1125] Oh, my God, Gretchen.

[1126] But so again, when you look for these things, it's very exciting to see that.

[1127] Yeah, these are fun.

[1128] You tell me, like, I'm not observant.

[1129] I don't know any of these.

[1130] But see, it's fun because then when you start looking, you start seeing all these things.

[1131] Well, I can definitely see why that would lead to creativity because our brains are pattern -finding machines.

[1132] Half of creativity is finding a pattern that actually isn't a pattern, but now is your new novel proprietary idea or invention.

[1133] It's all pattern and breaks and pattern.

[1134] That is what the brain is constantly looking for.

[1135] What's the pattern?

[1136] How is it breaking?

[1137] I need to be able to predict this to feel safe.

[1138] Yeah, probably the most ambitious exercise I did for Life in Five Senses was to go to the Metropolitan Museum every day.

[1139] And I wanted to have something where it was very repetitious.

[1140] There was a lot that was repeated.

[1141] There was the pattern of going every day.

[1142] And then within that pattern, I would be able to see all the things that I was overlooking.

[1143] I've been going ever since.

[1144] I've been going way more than a year.

[1145] And I talked to a guy, Patrick Bingley, who wrote a book about his experience being a guard.

[1146] And he told me about guard marks.

[1147] There are places in the Met where there's just these marks on the wall.

[1148] which is where the guards lean against the wall while they're standing there and it marks the wall, like these big stripes and it was right at the top of the grand stairs.

[1149] I'm like, I have walked here dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of times.

[1150] The wall has this huge stripe on it.

[1151] Never noticed it.

[1152] Wow.

[1153] And now I'm like, how could I have missed it?

[1154] And it's such a funny thing, a guard mark, who even knew there was a name for that.

[1155] But I hadn't seen it until somebody pointed it out and now I can't unsee it.

[1156] We overlooked these things, But then when we really try to see or to hear or to smell or to taste or to touch, the world becomes just more in focus.

[1157] And it's so exciting.

[1158] Okay.

[1159] Now, I have a knee jerk to the art museum.

[1160] Could be anything.

[1161] Somebody was like, I go to my drugstore every day.

[1162] I'm like, there's so much to see at a big chain drugstore.

[1163] That would be super cool.

[1164] That's true.

[1165] And it's changing new products.

[1166] All the time and new people.

[1167] Especially in my neighborhood, people are hanging out, peeing out.

[1168] People are falling out.

[1169] There's a lot to see.

[1170] Cardiac arrest.

[1171] What the music is.

[1172] And I'm just incredibly fortunate that I live with the walking distance, which I totally recognize 100%.

[1173] Now, so this would be my own curiosity about spending a whole year there.

[1174] So I don't know if you ever watch Curb Your Enthusiasm.

[1175] Oh, yeah.

[1176] Okay, so Larry David famously in one of the episodes, he goes to the beach and someone asks him how he likes it.

[1177] And he said, I hate the beach.

[1178] I sit at the beach and I look at everyone else and I think, what are you all getting out of this that I'm not getting out of it?

[1179] Right, right.

[1180] A, I relate to that feeling so much.

[1181] I think it must be universal.

[1182] Maybe not at the beach, but somewhere.

[1183] a museum's largely that where i'm walking through and i'm like people are staring and staring and i look and i'm like yeah okay i don't know i bet one in 80 pieces of art interest me but i fantasize about doing what you're doing slowly my classes of warfare would disappear my sense of feeling judged would disappear and my feeling like a philistine that i don't like it would disappear and at some point i might start appreciating in a way that i was previously unable so i'm curious did your own appreciation evolve over that year and did you find yourself honing in on something and going like, I never thought those were amazing, but now it's all I think about.

[1184] Well, I will say that I think it's the experience of the museum itself that I like better than like going to see the art, if you know what I mean.

[1185] A museum is a different kind of space.

[1186] It's like more formal.

[1187] It's kind of an interesting kind of quiet.

[1188] I think it's stuffy.

[1189] First of all, I would say, then you could pick any place.

[1190] You could do the same hike every day.

[1191] Seeing how things change very subtly over time is exciting.

[1192] So the drugstore, the same hike through your neighborhood.

[1193] And the thing about the Met is it's big, so it's kind of maze -like, and there's all these kind of hidden nooks and crannies.

[1194] Good people watching.

[1195] Yeah, so I know what you mean.

[1196] I don't go and stare at rapture and some masterpiece.

[1197] For me, it's much more about the atmosphere of the museum itself.

[1198] I dig that.

[1199] At some point, someone pointed out to me that if ever in front of a Van Gogh, notice how much of the canvas is not painted.

[1200] He was famous for leaving lots of the canvas without paint.

[1201] And the areas that have paint have so much fucking paint.

[1202] He does have a lot of paint.

[1203] It's just gooped on, right?

[1204] Once someone told me to look for that, I found myself so interested in these paintings because I'm like, my God, 10 % of that canvas is exposed, but you don't see it in the fireworks of the goop.

[1205] And there's so many fun things that you can do, even if you're sort of not a classic art appreciation.

[1206] There's a color company called Pantone that relief.

[1207] Love it.

[1208] So, you know, every year they have the color of the year.

[1209] So I patted a swatch on my phone.

[1210] Viva Muncha?

[1211] Yes, exactly.

[1212] Okay, well, we can discuss what we think of that color later.

[1213] Oh, my gosh.

[1214] Okay, Monica, you've got to do this.

[1215] Go to a museum and look and see, can you see that?

[1216] Oh, that's so fun.

[1217] If you buy a postcard of a piece of art, and then you go look at the actual thing and you're holding it in front, you'll see it in a completely different way, especially if it's big.

[1218] You can't take in the whole thing.

[1219] I have a new goal of memorizing all the pantones.

[1220] Apparently, Ferrell is really good at that.

[1221] He can, like, see this blue and name the Pantone.

[1222] Oh, my gosh.

[1223] Even though there's no way that blue's in the Pantone.

[1224] So I know someone who has kind of perfect pitch for color.

[1225] Like, she can have a color in her mind.

[1226] If she saw a piece of paint, she could go and say, oh, well, this chair will match it.

[1227] Because I can't hold a color in my mind.

[1228] But maybe Feralt can.

[1229] I don't know.

[1230] He probably can.

[1231] Has he thought about interior design at all?

[1232] Well, he's now the men's head of Louis Vuitton.

[1233] Oh, he is?

[1234] Yeah.

[1235] Wow.

[1236] The fact that my children in their public elementary school had a segment on the history of hip -hop and they had to paint pictures of Snoop Dogg, I was like, I like this so much.

[1237] And the notion now that every one of these luxury brands is being run by someone from hip -hop, I just love it.

[1238] Yeah, not every.

[1239] Two of them, maybe three.

[1240] But still, it's cool.

[1241] It's really great.

[1242] I love you.

[1243] I don't know why.

[1244] This is so wonderful.

[1245] In the book, you have some tools laid out.

[1246] Five senses quiz.

[1247] We already talked about that.

[1248] We're going to take that in the fact check for sure.

[1249] Manifesto for listening.

[1250] What is that?

[1251] So with our sense of hearing, one of the most important things we do is listen to other people, but I really wanted to up my game and do much better.

[1252] So whenever I feel like there's something that I need to work on, I try to do like a crystallization through a manifesto.

[1253] And so I wrote down everything that I was trying to do with listening, which is things like turn your body to somebody and face them to show that you're listening.

[1254] Like, you know, if you're at a party and you're sort of turned away from somebody, you're not really paying attention.

[1255] You put down my phone, my book, anything that would show that I was distracted, allowing silence, not rushing in.

[1256] Also, I realized that if things got heavy or it was uncomfortable, I would often, even before I was consciously aware, like, be starting to steer the conversation to safer ground.

[1257] It was very hard for me to, like, stay with somebody who was expressing pain.

[1258] And also, I realize I have this habit of suggesting books.

[1259] It's like, I'm getting a divorce.

[1260] I'm like, oh, my gosh, have you read this book?

[1261] Ten fun ways to get divorced.

[1262] Yeah, or like, you know, oh, my child's having this problem.

[1263] I go, oh, have you read this book?

[1264] Solutions you're trying.

[1265] Yeah, and for me, it's always about a book.

[1266] It's always like, this is your reading list.

[1267] And then I realize they're not asking me, hey, Gretchen, do you have a book to recommend?

[1268] I'm like, you can send that in an email later if you want to.

[1269] But in the moment, stay open, listen, paraphrasing me. Like, it sounds like you're feeling blank.

[1270] And that for me was hard because I was always trying to rush through.

[1271] And then in the end, when in doubt, stop talking.

[1272] That's my hardest one.

[1273] That's the hardest one.

[1274] Okay.

[1275] Now, Rubin's own audio apothecary.

[1276] So, you know, music, there's so much research, and we all know this from our own experience, that it has such a powerful influence on our mental, physical, and emotional well -being.

[1277] And here's the funny thing about music.

[1278] It's a universal constant in human culture.

[1279] Every human culture has music, and they don't really know why.

[1280] There's a lot of theories about why it is, but it's not clear why it doesn't seem evolutionarily necessary, and yet everybody has it.

[1281] I still am not a person who listens to music all that much.

[1282] One of the things I discovered in the process of doing this book is I'm a song lover, not a music lover.

[1283] So I'll listen to like the one song, but I won't then listen to the whole album.

[1284] Or like, let me listen to more songs by that person.

[1285] Let me listen to that genre.

[1286] I just like the one song.

[1287] I don't go to concerts because I just want to listen to one song.

[1288] But I decided I wanted to make a list to cure the blues.

[1289] And so I made the audio apothecary for if I was, wanted to listen to music that would just energize me, make me happy, cure the blues.

[1290] And ding, ding, D 'Ning, Feral was on your list.

[1291] Right, there you go.

[1292] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

[1293] He's like me, if you were saying, like, what song is most associated with Happy?

[1294] I think that's his song.

[1295] Yeah, yeah.

[1296] Yeah.

[1297] I think a lot of people do this.

[1298] They'll have playlists for, like, working out or playlist for, like, meditating.

[1299] But I had never done that before, so it was very powerful for me. I have a very strong association with exactly what you're talking about.

[1300] I happen to love music and I listen to you at non -stop.

[1301] I enjoy it actually even more when I'm very sad and depressed.

[1302] Listening to my sad and depressed playlists, I end up feeling comforted and a lack of loneliness in a way that, oh my gosh, this musician clearly felt exactly what I feel.

[1303] That music signals to me that I'm not alone in this grief or alone in this misery.

[1304] It's like a companion, and I feel seen by the music.

[1305] By having a playlist for that, you kind of have that in your toolkit to manage.

[1306] manage an emotion, it's easy to become kind of passive and just let sensory experiences or even emotions watch over us instead of thinking, like, what could I do to address it?

[1307] Things aren't always within your control, but sometimes things are within your control.

[1308] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[1309] So let me ask you to this question.

[1310] If you need to really focus, so you're doing your highest intellectually demanding work, Do you want silence, busy home like a coffee shop, music with words, music without words, or like white, pink, or brown noise?

[1311] Monica.

[1312] It can't obviously be editing because then you're listening to something.

[1313] Right, that's what I have.

[1314] Yeah, if you're like writing or something.

[1315] Yeah, if you're writing or like you're taking notes on something and you really have to focus.

[1316] I think coffee shop.

[1317] That's Gretchen's favorite.

[1318] I like that or silence.

[1319] Yes, exactly.

[1320] Yeah, it either needs to be a very steady cacophony of.

[1321] noises that I couldn't possibly focus on, or dead quiet.

[1322] Yeah, same.

[1323] But people who listen to music with lyrics while they read, I really can't understand.

[1324] I don't get it.

[1325] I don't get it.

[1326] People do.

[1327] People study with lyrical music on?

[1328] Or music with no words.

[1329] Robbie Rob is about to say he can't.

[1330] Do you study with music on?

[1331] Not lyrical.

[1332] Not lyrical.

[1333] But music.

[1334] Yeah.

[1335] See, I could not do that.

[1336] I was on a plane.

[1337] I was waiting for a plane to take off so I was reading my book and they were playing music.

[1338] And I was like, I just want to sit here and read, turn off the music, but I can't turn it off.

[1339] Noise cancelling headphones.

[1340] They hear all things.

[1341] I have noise cancelling AirPods.

[1342] I should put them in.

[1343] I don't know why I didn't.

[1344] But see, here I go.

[1345] I was having an experience and I was passively enduring it instead of thinking, hey, is there a way within my own power that I can change my experience?

[1346] Yes, I happen to have something in my backpack right now that I can use.

[1347] You're not a Capricorn, are you?

[1348] No. Okay.

[1349] What are you, Virgo?

[1350] I'm a Sagittarius.

[1351] I don't know enough about I don't know enough for that.

[1352] Oh, okay.

[1353] I ask you that because I have the air max.

[1354] They're outrageously expensive, but you should get them.

[1355] And Monica saw in a cab in London 90 minutes in this cab with the two kids fighting and everyone's screaming.

[1356] And I put those on and I was like, this is what's preventing me from stepping out of this cab and walking away from my life.

[1357] Well, and people say you don't realize how enervating it is to be on a plane with that noise, especially a long flight.

[1358] and that you are much less drained from a flight if you have the noise canceling.

[1359] But it has to be the over -the -ear.

[1360] Because it's quite unpleasant.

[1361] Your brain now is very occupied in diminishing that discomfort.

[1362] Yeah, except Bradley Cooper had them on in the subway and almost got stabbed.

[1363] Because he wasn't paying attention?

[1364] Because the world was quiet.

[1365] But see, now, knowing my personality, it'd be best that I miss that kind of thing because I would most certainly get involved.

[1366] It was him.

[1367] He wasn't watching somebody else getting stabbed.

[1368] Right, but if I had seen it come and I would have, It doesn't matter.

[1369] You know what I'm saying.

[1370] Back to the research, I'm much more careful of my ears now.

[1371] Like, in the subway, it's incredibly loud and this kind of high -pitched streaking.

[1372] And I'll cover my ears now because they're delicate and they don't repair.

[1373] Nor were they designed to hear that kind of...

[1374] No, they're not.

[1375] It's very foreign to heart.

[1376] Like an occasional tree falling in a forest, yes.

[1377] A lion's roar.

[1378] Maybe a rock dropping off a waterfall, but not the New York subway system for sure.

[1379] Nothing in nature makes that unique rail, squeaky wheel on rail squeal.

[1380] So here's something weird that I keep wanting to look up again.

[1381] Apparently, nails on a talkboard is a universally horrible sound.

[1382] Because you can see why all cultures don't like this out of a baby crying, but why do all cultures just like that scraping sound?

[1383] Do you have an explanation?

[1384] No. What's your hypothesis?

[1385] I know for me. A, I know exactly what the noise is.

[1386] There's no question.

[1387] And it's nails.

[1388] and so I go straight to a mirror neuron my nails are going to bend back and break I think we all have an enormous fear of our nails breaking so I think because we know how the noise is generated we have an instinctual my nails are going to break maybe okay here's another thing your kids are in the sour stage they don't know why but there's across cultures more than adults young kids like sour and they don't know why but you know how kids they go through that period where they love sour Yes, warheads.

[1389] Yes, and you're like, why did they like them?

[1390] I got a theory right now already.

[1391] What about the ripeness of fruit?

[1392] That's one of the theories.

[1393] Oh, that's a great.

[1394] That's much better than mine.

[1395] Well, my hunch would be this.

[1396] Their taste buds and all their olfactory buds are so acute and sensitive.

[1397] They're brand new.

[1398] They're not callous.

[1399] They're not beat down.

[1400] They haven't filed any of it to white noise.

[1401] I have noticed in my own trajectory of eating is like, I need more and more action to get any kind of a spike, right?

[1402] Like, and I think everyone's tolerance for spice goes up dramatically as they get older.

[1403] Probably because your sense of smell is diminishing.

[1404] Exactly.

[1405] All those other ones we might indulge in are just too much for them.

[1406] As I know, if my kids try any of the spicy stuff, it's too much for them with those beautiful sensitive, yeah, or bitter.

[1407] Perhaps sour's the one that you can explore that isn't over, well, I don't know.

[1408] But little kids don't like it.

[1409] Oh, little kids don't.

[1410] Little kids don't.

[1411] It's sort of eight to three.

[1412] And then you're saying that's cross -culture because a lot of cultures, kids are exposed to spice.

[1413] Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

[1414] So that's weird.

[1415] Yeah.

[1416] I like that fruit one is interesting.

[1417] Yeah, fruit.

[1418] But why not babies?

[1419] Baby should like fruit too.

[1420] Well, because if they're going to forage at that age, they need to know what's ripe and what's not ripe.

[1421] Well, sure, but just why would there ever be a zone where you wouldn't like it?

[1422] Right.

[1423] It should always be incentivized because fruit is ideal for us to consume.

[1424] But maybe it does have to do with a maturation.

[1425] It's like a transition or something.

[1426] But also maybe because they're unmilk, and actually they are prone to diarrhea when they're really little, so maybe the fruit with all the fiber would increase diarrhea, so we don't want them to be attracted to fibrous.

[1427] Who knows?

[1428] This is why we did anthropology.

[1429] It's endlessly fascinating guessing.

[1430] And maybe this will all be disproved.

[1431] I know you've talked about the replication crisis.

[1432] It might be like, maybe this was one little warheads.

[1433] You listen to Paul Bloom.

[1434] Oh, yeah, well.

[1435] Warhead sponsors.

[1436] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1437] So maybe it's like, okay, let's replicate that a couple times before we spin at our hypothesis.

[1438] We don't really know shit about anything.

[1439] I hate to break it to everybody.

[1440] Okay, what's the muse machine?

[1441] Okay, this is this very fun thing I did.

[1442] I would have periods where I would be creatively stuck and somebody would say a phrase or I would read something and all of a sudden I would have this way forward.

[1443] And so I started writing them down and I was just collecting them and collecting them.

[1444] And some of them were things that had occurred to me and some were like ones that I'd read that I'm like, oh, that's a really good one.

[1445] I should remember it.

[1446] And I had a list of them.

[1447] I just called it my indirect directions because they're just like a phrase like, skip the boring parts or break the frame, something like that.

[1448] So just very short and kind of mysterious because you sort of had to figure it out.

[1449] So they were just on my computer and I kept thinking, you know, I'm just going to one day forget I created this.

[1450] I have all this stuff lying around.

[1451] I just forget I'm working on it and it vanishes.

[1452] And then I was reading all this stuff about how we can think more clearly when we are using physical items.

[1453] And this is like if you go to the eye doctor and he's saying, oh, this is what's wrong with your retina.

[1454] It's like they'll show you a little model.

[1455] Or, you know, we're like, this is what a double helix is.

[1456] or this is how physics works, because we can grasp ideas with our hands, we can grasp them more easily with our mind.

[1457] So I was thinking about this in creativity.

[1458] And then I, by chance, was home in Kansas City, and I saw my father's ancient Rolodex.

[1459] You know, those old card.

[1460] And I was just loved it.

[1461] Like, it's so inviting.

[1462] It's so tactile.

[1463] And I'm like, that's what I'll do with my indirect directions.

[1464] I'll put them on a Rolodex.

[1465] And then whenever I'm creatively stuck, kind of like astrology, I can just spin it and pick it and I'll figure out a way to make it work.

[1466] because a lot of times you want the randomness of the universe to kick something up and then you make something make sense.

[1467] So I was like, okay, so I get the Rolodex, copy them on it.

[1468] But then the question is, what is the name for this thing?

[1469] I was calling it indirect directions.

[1470] That's pretty boring.

[1471] Then I was calling it Rolodex of ideas.

[1472] That was pretty boring.

[1473] So I thought, well, this is my first challenge.

[1474] I'm creatively stuck.

[1475] I'll spin my Rolodex around because I had a circular Rolodex.

[1476] I'll pick a card and I'll just do what it says.

[1477] So I picked a card and the card said Find a fresh metaphor So then I'm like Okay I put that on my bulletin board I'm like I can't think of any metaphors For this Rolodex Like what do you call it?

[1478] Creativity, whatever I wasn't coming up with anything And then I was at the Met And at the Met there's this amazing giant ink stand That's Apollo and the Muses And it's got all these little cubbies And all these little drawers And it's covered with the muses and Apollo and all these famous poets And it's very elaborate And I thought wow that is just what you need if you want to be creative is you need an inkstand with muses.

[1479] And then I thought, oh, my thing will be the muse machine.

[1480] Oh, I like that.

[1481] So that's my muse machine.

[1482] So now if I need an idea, I just flip it and pick an idea.

[1483] Cool.

[1484] I like that.

[1485] I was chasing the tail of somehow connecting it to roulette.

[1486] You want to cast your own dice.

[1487] You want the universe to direct you.

[1488] You want the universe to direct you and you also want a remote control for the universe.

[1489] Oh, oh my God.

[1490] You got to put it that on a picture.

[1491] I am so much like you.

[1492] If you were to go through my desk, my doors, everything in my room, there are 36 short stories half written.

[1493] I mean, I have yellow pads of paper with full movies sketch.

[1494] I mean, I have so many fucking ideas just floating around.

[1495] So here you, this is another, if you like quizzes or you like categories.

[1496] There's finishers and openers.

[1497] So finishers like to finish, like they like to finish the tube of toothpaste and they like to cross something off the list and hand something in, ship something.

[1498] Openers love to open and start.

[1499] whether it's a box of cereal or like an academic paper.

[1500] In general, I'm a finisher, which is why I think I was so anxious about the indirect directions.

[1501] I have a track record of being a finisher, for sure.

[1502] But I have to have a system in place for that to work.

[1503] So my system was such.

[1504] When I was still pitching and selling movie ideas and writing the scripts, the key is figuring out which one has legs.

[1505] So as a rule of thumb, I wouldn't let myself start to jot ideas down unless I had had that idea.

[1506] and I had been telling people about it, which I'm prone to do.

[1507] Oh.

[1508] And I found that I was still doing it three months later.

[1509] That to me would be like the test.

[1510] As a writer of screenplays, you have to live with that idea for two years.

[1511] So I needed a little trial period before I'd commit because I was committing to too many too early that didn't have the legs.

[1512] Yes.

[1513] So you couldn't get them over the finish line.

[1514] Yeah, they run out of steam on their own.

[1515] It's like, oh, really just the kernel was good or whatever it was.

[1516] So I think people could also figure out a little system for themselves.

[1517] Wait, can I ask you a question?

[1518] So ever since I listened to your episode about relapse, in my book better than before, I talk about like the strategy of the clean slate and don't break the chain and like how people love.

[1519] And for so many people, the chain is so powerful and they don't break the chain and they don't break the chain.

[1520] And that's very, very helpful.

[1521] Yes.

[1522] It's a very, very powerful strategy for a lot of people.

[1523] And it seemed to me that for you, the pain of breaking the chain was so overwhelming that it was counterproductive.

[1524] And I'm wondering, for people who are in that place where they almost are stuck, how did you allow yourself to think through?

[1525] Because clearly also the people around you were struggling to help you understand that in one way you had to admit that you had broken the chain.

[1526] On the other hand, you learned so much for people who were kind of stuck in that hard place.

[1527] What would you say you learned?

[1528] I love this question because I don't have the answer.

[1529] We're, I don't know what it is, two and a half years away from that.

[1530] moment 2020 and i still don't have the answer what i know for me i have no recommendations for anyone else and how they handle their sobriety i see the position i got myself in as one i want to avoid in the future it's very tricky you're right the power of cumulative time and the stakes of losing the cumulative time is very powerful and by the way if i had drank this morning then of course i'm going to drink tonight because what i already did so a lot of things are true at the same time it's like On one hand, I think it's very powerful and I advise people to do it.

[1531] And there's nothing that feels better than looking in the mirror one morning and go, fucking A, five years I haven't drank alcohol?

[1532] That's impossible.

[1533] Yeah.

[1534] It's great.

[1535] I love it.

[1536] For me, it was distracting to the work.

[1537] It became a lot about that date.

[1538] I've had more sober stretches with a year of sobriety than I did with 14 years of sobriety.

[1539] If that makes any sense.

[1540] It's like I could be going to less meetings, have less connection with the fellowship, be working the program less, but still have way more time.

[1541] I don't think it's the only evaluation of sobriety.

[1542] And another thing I think is hugely problematic about the whole system.

[1543] And I think there's a lot of people in AA that wrestle with this.

[1544] People are trying to kind of talk about it and figure it out.

[1545] But let me put it this way.

[1546] If in 20 years of an addict's life, he or she didn't use for 18 of those years, that's an insane miracle.

[1547] That's an impossibility.

[1548] An addict not using when they wake up is impossible.

[1549] So a singular evaluation of the success being cumulative seems incomplete and not honest.

[1550] I don't know if someone relapsed once a year for 20 years, but they really were sober 364 out of 365 days for 20 years.

[1551] Huge accomplishment.

[1552] Impossible.

[1553] Right.

[1554] So I don't know.

[1555] I'm still confused about it.

[1556] I know I've not decided to reconnect to that big time thing.

[1557] I found it to be for me, ultimately not the greatest.

[1558] But to your point about both things being true, because when you look at don't break the chain or whatever, it's clear that what you do every day matters a lot.

[1559] On the other hand, people who cut themselves slack when they screw up and show themselves compassion tend to do a better job of getting back on.

[1560] And I think a lot of people really are so hard on themselves because I think if I'm really hard on myself, I'll be more dedicated.

[1561] But actually, then that makes you less likely to sort of get back in the saddle.

[1562] So on the one hand, you have to say, it matters tremendously.

[1563] And then on the other hand, you have to say, like, but if I screw up, there's a way back.

[1564] And I thought one of the things that was interesting about what you said is, I used to be able to lie.

[1565] Now I couldn't lie.

[1566] That was huge.

[1567] I mean, I could lie, but I hated it.

[1568] The mind fuck of it is if you've had a lot of time, this is a chronic condition in the program.

[1569] When people have had a lot of time and they lose it, it used to be I'm going to try to get sober one more day.

[1570] Like, oh my God, I've been sober 10 days.

[1571] I'm going to get sober for 11 days.

[1572] That'll be great.

[1573] Tomorrow will be 12.

[1574] I don't know if I'll ever be sober as long as I was the last time.

[1575] And that's a real mind fuck.

[1576] So is this tying into, you're like, now I have to run seven miles?

[1577] Yeah, so if I do this thing and the time is super important to me, I'm doing it knowing it won't be until 2040 that I have 16 years again, until I'm back where I was.

[1578] That thought is kind of overwhelming, makes it feel pointless and why even pursue it.

[1579] I'm never going to have that time again.

[1580] I can't really focus now on the time thing for me. Well, the whole point of AA is built on minute by minute day by day.

[1581] And Monica just nailed it.

[1582] So I really have switched to like, I'm sober today.

[1583] Which is how you got sober.

[1584] I think I'll be sober tomorrow.

[1585] So you're using don't break the chain, but it's day by day.

[1586] But I don't even know the date the way I used to know.

[1587] I still know my first date, but I have to think about the second date.

[1588] The whole thing is very weird in my head.

[1589] Like I said, I don't have an answer for it and I don't know what's advisable to people.

[1590] I just know if I really start thinking about, oh, great, I have two years.

[1591] My next thought will be like, you had 16.

[1592] Oh, my God.

[1593] It's 14 more years before you had what you had.

[1594] That feels insurmountable.

[1595] And that's the whole point of day at a time.

[1596] Getting sober for the rest of your life is not possible.

[1597] Getting sober today is possible.

[1598] That's so interesting.

[1599] Right?

[1600] Because people come in and they go, like, what are I going to do when my son turns 21?

[1601] He wants to have a beer with his dad.

[1602] I'm like, let's worry about that in 20 years when your son turns 21.

[1603] Today he's not 21 and we can get through today and odds are we'll get through his 21st birthday on that day so that's where it's a real weird triggery thing well it's good to hear that this is a tension that many people struggle with and maybe that itself is useful for people to know that it's a hard thing to kind of wrap your mind around it is and I've seen it take out way more people than I've seen come back and reachieve the original sobriety they have I just don't feel myself going on that path again for whatever reason I'm like yeah today I'm somewhere.

[1604] For other people, I encourage them to use a different thing, and it probably works for them.

[1605] Yeah.

[1606] Ever since I heard that, I was very curious.

[1607] And then I thought, hey, I'm actually going to be talking to that guy.

[1608] I can ask it myself.

[1609] Well, listen, I think that your book, Life and Five Senses, how exploring the senses got me out of my head and into the world is fantastic.

[1610] I don't want to say, I know you're on to something.

[1611] You already know you're on to something.

[1612] But I'll say something that I enjoy is when I get that spitey tingle, reading something when I go, oh, right, that explains when I do that thing.

[1613] That's why this thing happens.

[1614] Like, everything that you've written about is very tangible.

[1615] It's very practical.

[1616] It's very actionable.

[1617] One thing, Monica, this is really cool for you or not, maybe.

[1618] Touch has a very calming for people with anxiety in particular.

[1619] Gretchen holds a pen, but holding a rock that has texture.

[1620] There's something about holding something and feeling it and experiencing it that has an anti - anxiety effect yeah and i've talked to people like hold a clipboard a cold water bottle there's something it's just very grounding it made me want to have like a kind of porous rock yeah like a volcanic rock yeah i feel like something about that would be very calming for me haven't thought about the texture of like lava that's a very cool texture yeah and then it's like something that you can do you're like i need to calm down i'm yeah i get that maybe that's why i like mug so much that's a great one do you have a mug that do you like them because of their texture i collect these Starbucks ones And I say it's because of the size, but I do think I like just holding.

[1621] Or your hands always cold, though, too?

[1622] And it's, like, nice to hold something warm.

[1623] There's a lot going on.

[1624] No, there's no. Is it the fact that you're cold -blooded or that you have anxiety?

[1625] Who knows?

[1626] Who knows?

[1627] Who knows?

[1628] But, yeah, something's going on because why anyone would need to drink a glass of hot water makes no sense.

[1629] If there's not caffeine in it, then what's the point?

[1630] I do it all the time.

[1631] It's good for your body.

[1632] I order it in restaurants.

[1633] Same.

[1634] I had it yesterday.

[1635] And it was like 100 degrees, and I ordered hot water.

[1636] Yeah.

[1637] And they're like, do you want a little lemon?

[1638] Yeah, always a little lemon.

[1639] If you like, yeah.

[1640] I was a little lemon.

[1641] So in addition to people buying life in five senses, which I strongly recommend, also they should listen to you on Happier, your podcast with your sister.

[1642] Feel free to check out both those things.

[1643] It's been a real pleasure talking to you.

[1644] Time has moved suspiciously quickly, which is always, to me, the signal of a good interview.

[1645] We've been here for four and a half hours.

[1646] What a pleasure talking to you, and what a fun book you've written.

[1647] and I appreciate your endless pursuit of this topic.

[1648] Oh, well, thanks so much.

[1649] I had so much fun talking to you, too.

[1650] Oh, good, good, good.

[1651] I'm glad you wore such a loud green dress because you're here to talk about the senses.

[1652] If you shut up in something largely forgettable, I feel like you'd be betraying your own work.

[1653] I know.

[1654] I felt like I had to bring it on.

[1655] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1656] We've all been there.

[1657] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable.

[1658] pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[1659] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[1660] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[1661] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[1662] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[1663] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[1664] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[1665] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon music.

[1666] Okay, go.

[1667] Okay.

[1668] This is going to be an unedited fact check, so because of schedules.

[1669] Yeah.

[1670] This is about as close as we get to live.

[1671] That's right.

[1672] And you always want it to be live, and now we've done it.

[1673] Well, and you know why?

[1674] Uh -oh.

[1675] What?

[1676] Well, it's Thursday morning right now.

[1677] I already have something I want to edit out.

[1678] What?

[1679] You're not going to like it.

[1680] What?

[1681] I often have to edit out that sound.

[1682] What sound?

[1683] You're spitting?

[1684] Okay.

[1685] Well, I'll do it away from microphone.

[1686] Okay.

[1687] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1688] Now back to live.

[1689] The issue would lie No, I just know, it's fine I'm scared No, go Back to live Well, because Stern does that show live Yeah That's impressive It's three or four hours straight Yeah Super entertaining, no air Yeah And flying Yeah So the fact that we edit Is a bit of a cheat You know, it's Sure If we're making him the person Yes, we're comparing the radio show to the podcast.

[1690] Yeah.

[1691] And they're kind of the same thing.

[1692] So I don't mind.

[1693] I like the challenge because I think it gets us closer to that.

[1694] Okay.

[1695] All right.

[1696] So you just flew in.

[1697] Mm -hmm.

[1698] Yes, your arms are exhausted.

[1699] Yeah, I flew in.

[1700] What time did you leave the house?

[1701] I left the house at 7 .30 Eastern.

[1702] Okay.

[1703] So that's 4 .30 Pacific time.

[1704] Yeah.

[1705] And it's 1 .30 right.

[1706] now, Pacific.

[1707] So then what time was your flight?

[1708] Nine?

[1709] It was at 10.

[1710] 10?

[1711] That's not terrible.

[1712] And who drove you, Ashok?

[1713] Mm -hmm.

[1714] Uh -huh.

[1715] And how was your day with him yesterday?

[1716] It was nice.

[1717] We all went to a nice dinner.

[1718] Where?

[1719] It's called Kimball House.

[1720] Okay.

[1721] In Duluth?

[1722] No, it's in Decatur.

[1723] Okay.

[1724] And it was delicious.

[1725] It was.

[1726] Yeah, it was fun.

[1727] It was good.

[1728] It was a good little break home.

[1729] Did Neil join you guys for dinner?

[1730] Yes.

[1731] He did.

[1732] So is it for you.

[1733] Yeah.

[1734] That's lovely.

[1735] That must make your parents so happy.

[1736] I think so.

[1737] Yes.

[1738] When my children's are 35 and 27, if they want to go out to eat with me, I'll be delighted.

[1739] You're going to have a 35 -year -old and a 27 -year -old.

[1740] In theory.

[1741] That means you're going to have to have another kid to have that age gap.

[1742] Well, because yours are going to be 35 and 34.

[1743] That's true.

[1744] So let's say they're 35 and 33.

[1745] Whatever.

[1746] In their 30s of both children, you know what I'm saying.

[1747] Adult children joining you for dinner is a flattering occasion for parents.

[1748] I think it is.

[1749] Yeah.

[1750] Because they have choice.

[1751] You have a choice.

[1752] You don't have to go home.

[1753] In order to ever talk to them again.

[1754] No, that does not feel like an option.

[1755] Although it is.

[1756] People do that.

[1757] do that, I don't think there's ever been one Indian person who's ever done that.

[1758] Then's been excommunicated from their family?

[1759] There has to be.

[1760] There's been betrayal and backstab.

[1761] Yeah, but they still do it.

[1762] They just sweep it under the rug.

[1763] Yep.

[1764] I think it's cultural.

[1765] Yeah.

[1766] Well, I'm just back for Miami.

[1767] Yes, you are.

[1768] You got back late last night?

[1769] Late last night and I guess the event that wouldn't have been reported was I left for the airport at 4 .30 a .m. to go to Miami.

[1770] I had a 6 .30 flight out of LAX.

[1771] Yeah.

[1772] And I rode my motorcycle.

[1773] Yeah.

[1774] For many reasons, I don't have to pay for parking.

[1775] Also, when I land, I can be home in 30 minutes.

[1776] Faster.

[1777] It's worth it ultimately for me. It's not pleasant riding a motorcycle at 4 .30 in the morning on the way to the airport because it was like 49 degrees or something.

[1778] But whatever, I'll get over this it'll be half hour discomfort and then it's so much easier yeah about six miles from home i'm driving on the 101 approaching downtown and then torrential downpour rain at 450 a m and i'm just going what is happening like a that's not supposed to happen in california and what timing and it It wasn't in the forecast.

[1779] Unexpected.

[1780] It felt cruel.

[1781] It felt like, you know, there was a plot against me. In fact, as you'll find out, the Sim was very much at work this weekend for me. Okay.

[1782] So anyways, I get completely drenched.

[1783] There's even hell at some point when I'm directly downtown.

[1784] And it rains for most of the rest of the ride to LAX.

[1785] And that means I'm going much slower than I had anticipated going, which means I get there with just about 50 minutes before my flight.

[1786] I'm not too worried.

[1787] I am soaking wet.

[1788] I run inside.

[1789] I get in line and I'm flying first.

[1790] So I get into the premier line, which I'm assuming will go quicker and there'll be more agents.

[1791] Well, I'm sitting there and there's probably seven people ahead of me. And I'm noticing of the three people up there, one of them's helping like a band load.

[1792] So it's just cargo container after guys.

[1793] So they're gone.

[1794] Then there's the one gal who's helping someone.

[1795] And then there is a, I guess, a manager, standing in front of a computer, but like just on her phone or whatever, hanging.

[1796] Okay.

[1797] And I'm looking over at the main cabin line, and it's moving really fast.

[1798] And I keep debating whether to bounce out of this line or not.

[1799] And this is like, I guess people in the Titanic who just, like, go down while eating a fancy meal.

[1800] I know.

[1801] Yeah, there's something like I'm buying into some weird, elitist shit that's preventing me from going over there.

[1802] I'm buying into the notion that I've paid more so I will get better service.

[1803] Exactly.

[1804] Despite observing much better service.

[1805] Are you worried you're going to have to take your shoes off or something?

[1806] What do you mean?

[1807] No, I'm just trying to check in for the flight.

[1808] Right.

[1809] Are you worried that's going to like derail your whole?

[1810] Well, here's what happens.

[1811] Every time I'm convinced I need to go over there, I convince myself to stay because I'm going to lose my place there and then blah, blah, blah.

[1812] But every time I do that, I clock who was last in line.

[1813] when I make that decision.

[1814] And then time after time I watch that person get up and get serviced.

[1815] I just can't, I'm like paralyzed with decision fatigue.

[1816] I don't know whether to get out of the line or not.

[1817] I stay in the line, which was regrettable.

[1818] Okay.

[1819] By the time I get up there, I've been in that line for 20 minutes and there's just six or seven people in front of me. Okay.

[1820] And she says, we can't check your bag.

[1821] It's too late.

[1822] What?

[1823] Yeah, it's too late.

[1824] We won't get it on the aircraft.

[1825] And I...

[1826] Oh my gosh.

[1827] I'm, A, I'm on Charlie's flight.

[1828] B, I have all the recording equipment.

[1829] We're going to the Formula One and we're there with press passes to interview people.

[1830] So I'm like, I can't go without the bag because it has all the equipment.

[1831] And I can't miss this flight or I'm going to miss practice, blah, blah, blah.

[1832] They're like, well, you can be on the 1130.

[1833] I've already woken up at four to get there, right?

[1834] Oh, my God.

[1835] This is a thing?

[1836] Yes.

[1837] And I...

[1838] Oh, no. No, no, I never get mean.

[1839] Wait a minute.

[1840] This is a ding, ding, ding.

[1841] Why?

[1842] For Armchair Anonymous this week.

[1843] The TSA.

[1844] This is like, this is a situation.

[1845] Yeah, but it wasn't, this was just the staff at the ticketing.

[1846] Still, close enough.

[1847] I'm like, you know, I start to say like, oh, no, I, I got to be on that flight.

[1848] I'm trying to explain to them the reasons why.

[1849] And the woman that was the only one working that was helping, who I had approached, she kind of goes to the boss like do you think we can't you know you can't you missed it and I'm like I know I'm so sorry but I have been in line for 20 minutes I really was here in time that's why we say two hours oh boy so then it became about two hours and then I um the closest I can relate it to is being in high school when you'd have a substitute teacher and you'd go too far and they were trying to send you to the principal's office and you just beg you would simply beg for 12 minutes Please don't send me the principal.

[1850] If you do, I'm going to get kicked out.

[1851] And if I get kicked out again, then I'm going to get expelled.

[1852] And then I'm going to have to, you know, all this stuff.

[1853] Oh, bye.

[1854] That's my most recent memory of straight begging.

[1855] Okay.

[1856] Because let me also add, begging was off the table in my house.

[1857] My mother did not play that game.

[1858] Like, I'd have friends go, hey, you want to spend the night?

[1859] And I go, yeah, let me ask my mom.

[1860] Can I spend that night at Trevor's house?

[1861] No. And I go, oh, she said no. And Trevor would go, like, ask her again, beg her.

[1862] Yeah.

[1863] Because that did work for every other kid.

[1864] Yeah.

[1865] That was off the table in my house.

[1866] You asked one time, that was the answer for life.

[1867] By the way, I believe in that policy, and that's how I'm raising my kids.

[1868] There's just no begging.

[1869] Okay.

[1870] Okay.

[1871] So I wasn't begging in the house a lot, but I was begging at school a lot to get out of trouble.

[1872] Okay.

[1873] Well, I was back there.

[1874] I was begging them, and the manager just did not want to do it.

[1875] I don't know if she just started realizing, like, he's not going anywhere.

[1876] So anyway, she gets on a walkie -talkie reluctantly, and she calls, I guess, the ground crew.

[1877] And this guy is, yeah, hi, this is so -and -so from, could we get a bag on the Miami flight still?

[1878] Yeah, of course.

[1879] I can hear it over the walkie -talkie.

[1880] He said, of course?

[1881] Yes.

[1882] So I was just, I was too relieved at that moment to even be upset that I, you know, they were that unwilling to make that CB call.

[1883] Anyways, I got on.

[1884] Wow.

[1885] Okay, go down there, great weekend, really funny.

[1886] I told you, we're terrible.

[1887] at it.

[1888] We're so bad.

[1889] We're wandering around the track, trying to get interviews.

[1890] We can't figure out how to talk to anybody.

[1891] It's very, very clear.

[1892] We're not going to be able to talk to anybody.

[1893] We feel like complete failures.

[1894] Then we're laughing at how bad we're doing at it.

[1895] What a waste of these passes it was.

[1896] Blah, blah, blah.

[1897] Sunday, out of thin air, I get to talk to Toto Wolf, and then immediately after Christian Horner, which was so unforeseen.

[1898] We were saying the simulation is so brilliant.

[1899] It made it really miserable to get there.

[1900] I fucked up, and then we couldn't, we did a terrible job all to get this beautiful gift on Sunday of these two little sound bites from Toto Wolf and Kriss.

[1901] So that was really fun.

[1902] Then I go with Charlie to Key West for two nights, which was incredibly fun.

[1903] Fly home, drive from Key West to Miami yesterday.

[1904] That's like a four hour drive.

[1905] Then get on the flight.

[1906] That's a five hour flight.

[1907] Land and I got to bring the kids to school early in the morning.

[1908] So I'm like really trying to rush.

[1909] Bag takes forever.

[1910] Who cares?

[1911] Get out to the motorcycle.

[1912] And I had worn a big jacket.

[1913] that had gotten soaked, but I'm like, oh, that was five days ago.

[1914] Yeah.

[1915] Oh, no. I open up the top case of my motorcycle, and so the jacket's still completely soaked.

[1916] My gloves are soaked, and has soaked my helmet just by being in the same box now.

[1917] So everything's wet.

[1918] I also can't ride home in a T -shirt last night at 11 because it's also 50 degrees and it's just too cold.

[1919] So I put on the wet jacket and the wet gloves and the wet helmet, and then I rode home.

[1920] You probably would have been better off in the T -shirt.

[1921] Well, I had to wear gloves, and I had to wear the hair.

[1922] helmet and the helmet was wet and the gloves were wet and I just wind wise I was like maybe it'll be like a wet suit like yeah it's wet but it'll get that little layer between my body in it it it was all manageable I did it but um it's not the surprise I was looking for when I opened up my top case to get my shit out oh that's a bummer but you made it I made it yeah you're home I'm home you did it delighted to be home it was a great trip it was a really great trip good What were the highlights of Georgia?

[1923] What were the highlights?

[1924] I saw friends.

[1925] I mean, there's not much to report.

[1926] I don't want to waste our unedited fact check on non.

[1927] You did discover a photo of your mother.

[1928] I did.

[1929] I did.

[1930] I got some old...

[1931] I got some old photos for my grandparents' house.

[1932] Can you tell me that...

[1933] Can you tell me you just found out she's actually 18 in the photo?

[1934] No. She is indeed 17.

[1935] Okay.

[1936] Well, then I can't...

[1937] I can't give any feedback.

[1938] No, you can't.

[1939] But I want, don't you want me to?

[1940] No, she just looks so cute.

[1941] I see I'm not allowed to say that.

[1942] You could say she looks cute.

[1943] Can you?

[1944] Okay, she looks so cute.

[1945] Yeah, she does.

[1946] Yeah, incredibly cute.

[1947] Yeah.

[1948] It's so fun and weird to see your parents when they're little.

[1949] Younger than you currently.

[1950] Yes, oh my God, there was a picture of my grandmother with the kids, but the kids are like 16, you know, My mom's like 16 in it or something.

[1951] Uh -huh.

[1952] And no, she would have been...

[1953] 18?

[1954] Yeah, something like that.

[1955] Oh, yeah, she looks super hot.

[1956] Um, and she, my grandmother's 38.

[1957] Oh, wow.

[1958] She's two years older than me, and she has three, like, majorly teenage children.

[1959] Yeah.

[1960] Oh, that was.

[1961] It was hard to swallow.

[1962] Was it?

[1963] Yeah.

[1964] Different times.

[1965] I know.

[1966] It was different times.

[1967] It just felt like, oh, my God, I'm running out of time.

[1968] You felt like you're running out of time.

[1969] Not that you are behind, just you're running out of time.

[1970] Those are two distinctly different feelings.

[1971] Yeah, mainly I'm running out of time.

[1972] I think that's preferred.

[1973] Well, I don't think I'm behind because it's not like she did everything I did.

[1974] Exactly.

[1975] You can't make an exact comparison.

[1976] but it was just a reminder that our bodies give out and then some grandmas are 38 fall off a cliff yeah yeah as we talked about with Nick about Nick Braun yeah about the Wilderbeasts gathering up on the riverbank and then there's just a waterfall of Wilderbees that fall over the bank because they're trying to avoid getting eaten by the crocodiles and that was the analogy of your eggs they have fallen off the bank yeah I don't think we said that We did.

[1977] I heard it.

[1978] I don't remember that at all.

[1979] How much money do you want about it?

[1980] Because I just heard it.

[1981] Oh, boy.

[1982] I believed acts, though, also, but I don't remember.

[1983] Yeah, yeah.

[1984] Just heard it.

[1985] You said the wilderbees?

[1986] Mm -hmm.

[1987] We were talking about your eggs falling off a cliff.

[1988] We did talk about my eggs.

[1989] I remember that.

[1990] Yeah.

[1991] You think the word wilderbees.

[1992] Oh, no, no, I know for sure.

[1993] I would bet my whole life on it.

[1994] Okay.

[1995] So, fun checking, I guess.

[1996] I guess.

[1997] All right.

[1998] Well.

[1999] Well, we have a quiz to take.

[2000] Oh, Jesus, then let's take it.

[2001] Yeah, because this is for Gretchen Rubin.

[2002] Oh, right, and she has a quiz.

[2003] She has two quizzes, but we'll just take one.

[2004] Okay.

[2005] Okay, but really quick, I found out the book series that her sister wrote, like, it was like a teen book series.

[2006] She was like, I can't remember the name, and we were saying Babysiders Club.

[2007] We were throwing out some stuff.

[2008] It was Sweet Valley High.

[2009] Oh, in the Sweet Valley Twins?

[2010] Yes.

[2011] Yes, I loved those books.

[2012] And her sister wrote those?

[2013] No, she said her sister wrote some like pulp fiction for some young adult book series.

[2014] Okay.

[2015] It was Sweet Valley High.

[2016] Okay, so let me pull up the quiz.

[2017] Now, this quiz is the five senses quiz.

[2018] Okay.

[2019] And what's it going to tell us what sense we value the most?

[2020] No, you're most neglected.

[2021] Oh, okay.

[2022] Think about the last week.

[2023] How often has each sense brought you moments of engagement or pleasure?

[2024] Okay, so it's seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching what's most often in your last week?

[2025] In my last week?

[2026] Yeah.

[2027] Man, I had a cornucopia of sensory pleasures.

[2028] Yeah.

[2029] So my hearing for sure, because I was listening to the loud Formula One cars.

[2030] And that gave you pleasure?

[2031] Oh, absolutely.

[2032] I did.

[2033] I fucking love that noise.

[2034] And the crowds.

[2035] cheering and the cars whipping by.

[2036] Okay.

[2037] I also heard tons of beach birds that...

[2038] Oh, that's fun.

[2039] That Pavlovian response of them on vacation.

[2040] Waves lapping at the shore.

[2041] I was hearing that a lot.

[2042] I had my door wall open in the hotel.

[2043] So hearing seems like it was most often?

[2044] It was a big one.

[2045] Okay.

[2046] Let me move here.

[2047] But sight, too.

[2048] I was looking at all the beautiful water.

[2049] Oh, God.

[2050] This is not...

[2051] Sliders.

[2052] This is slidings.

[2053] Uh -oh.

[2054] So it's like a percentage for each one.

[2055] Oh, boy, this might not be a good one to do unedited.

[2056] We like A, V, C, D. So you got to give a percentage for each sense.

[2057] Why don't you, why don't you just tell me the order or, okay, hearing I'm going to do a hundred.

[2058] Okay.

[2059] What about seeing?

[2060] 100.

[2061] Oh, but the same?

[2062] Yeah, because I'm seeing Total Wolf.

[2063] I'm seeing the race cars.

[2064] I'm seeing the track in the fan hair.

[2065] Okay, I don't think it's just what you've used.

[2066] No, it's pleasure.

[2067] I know, but I think you have to rank it.

[2068] So of those.

[2069] Okay, sight I'll go number one.

[2070] Okay, sight is a little more than here.

[2071] I'm just going to put hearing down and even just a tiny bit on this guy.

[2072] What about smelling?

[2073] Low on the list.

[2074] Yeah, I'm 40.

[2075] Okay, 40%.

[2076] Taste.

[2077] I had a lot of grape.

[2078] meals that made the trip really exciting.

[2079] I'd say 70 % days.

[2080] Okay, but not as good as hearing.

[2081] Right.

[2082] Hearing was a very auditory experience.

[2083] Okay, what about touching?

[2084] Oh, I didn't get any touch.

[2085] But you love touch.

[2086] I love touch, but I didn't experience any.

[2087] Oh, then...

[2088] I touched myself once.

[2089] Oh, this is unedited.

[2090] What?

[2091] People touch themselves.

[2092] Oh, my God.

[2093] I'm trying to give an honest answer.

[2094] We're talking about the last week.

[2095] Sometimes when we do unedited, you can't be as honest as normal.

[2096] Okay.

[2097] That was Frito that said that.

[2098] No, it was dad.

[2099] All right, I touch.

[2100] I like to touch myself everywhere.

[2101] My armpits, my shoulders.

[2102] Places, no one's husses.

[2103] Okay.

[2104] So I'm going to say higher than smell.

[2105] Yeah.

[2106] I just didn't have any.

[2107] Okay, you really wanted to do last week.

[2108] I thought that was the premise.

[2109] It is, but I, it is.

[2110] Okay, I'm moving on now.

[2111] Okay, great.

[2112] Okay.

[2113] Oh, it's telling us to please.

[2114] Is it asked if you touch yourself in the last six days?

[2115] No. Oh, if you wanted to cheer yourself up, what would you be most likely to do?

[2116] Okay, this is another slider.

[2117] I'm going to read them all, okay?

[2118] Okay.

[2119] Listen to a favorite upbeat song.

[2120] Curl up under a soft blanket or pet a dog or cat.

[2121] That's all one.

[2122] Wow, okay.

[2123] Wear or use something in a great color.

[2124] Fix yourself some comfort food.

[2125] light a scented candle or take a deep breath of fresh outdoor air first one okay first one's a hundred upbeat song how do you want me to do curl up under a soft blanket that's not my style I know I think you're zero on that oh wow okay okay wear or use something in a great color I don't know five oh five out of ten not five out of a hundred 50 don't make me change I don't know what you're at 50 is out of 100 or a out of 10.

[2126] I don't know.

[2127] It's nothing.

[2128] Okay, so half.

[2129] Okay, half.

[2130] That seems high for that.

[2131] Oh, geez.

[2132] Okay, fix yourself some comfort food?

[2133] Yeah, seven.

[2134] I think you, that's high, yeah.

[2135] Light a sun and candle or take a deep breath of fresh outdoor air.

[2136] A one.

[2137] Okay.

[2138] A little bit higher than curl up under a soft blanket.

[2139] Okay.

[2140] Which is weird because I think the soft blanket thing is trying to tell you about touch.

[2141] Yeah, and I love.

[2142] I love touch, but if I'm being honest, I love human touch.

[2143] Right.

[2144] I don't know that I, like, sit on a couch.

[2145] But you like, um, tactile textures.

[2146] Textures.

[2147] I don't have to burp when it's unedited.

[2148] Yeah, I'm a human being with a cough, I burp, I sneeze at far.

[2149] I edit all that.

[2150] They don't know about any of that.

[2151] Well, now this, but, well, that is one thing that Stern does nonstop is burr.

[2152] I know, but we're not.

[2153] I'm just telling you that the bar unedited accepts burps in the marketplace.

[2154] Oh, okay, well, that's okay.

[2155] Okay.

[2156] Okay, if a friend invites you to a night out, what sounds like the most fun?

[2157] Touring a spectacular light display, taking a poetry class.

[2158] Hey, no thanks.

[2159] Experiencing.

[2160] Pottery?

[2161] Oh, my God, pottery class.

[2162] Good catch.

[2163] Experiencing a sound bath.

[2164] Creating your own custom scent at a new shop and going to a potluck dinner.

[2165] Okay, so I think I can jump ahead to this.

[2166] I think what I've already know is that I'm prioritizing my sense of smell the least.

[2167] Because we have to take the whole.

[2168] Oh, yeah, I will.

[2169] I can see where this is going.

[2170] But, like, no, I'm not going to ever.

[2171] I will never in my life light a scented candle.

[2172] And I think that's going to pop up.

[2173] You did.

[2174] You've done it in here because it's been stinky.

[2175] If it smells like fucking chicken and horse shit in here, yes, I'll try to get a least offensive smell going.

[2176] But never will I be sitting in a neutral room and think.

[2177] I could really go for some vanilla smell in here, something tropical.

[2178] And that was because a guest was coming too.

[2179] Exactly.

[2180] I was actually happy to sit in the stinky chicken horseshit smell until a guest came.

[2181] And then it got vain.

[2182] You got self -conscious.

[2183] Self -conscious.

[2184] Okay, creating your own custom.

[2185] So that's zero.

[2186] a little...

[2187] Yeah, that sounds really good.

[2188] But what about the pottery class?

[2189] I would give that a six.

[2190] Same as sound?

[2191] Yeah.

[2192] Okay.

[2193] And then potluck dinner?

[2194] That's great.

[2195] I'll go with an eight there.

[2196] I love to taste.

[2197] Don't skip ahead to what you know it is, okay?

[2198] Okay.

[2199] Just play along.

[2200] All right.

[2201] Unedited.

[2202] Okay.

[2203] If you were getting ready for the holidays, which activity would you be most likely to enjoy?

[2204] Uh -oh.

[2205] Choosing holiday appropriate scented candles.

[2206] Yeah, zero.

[2207] Greenery or flowers.

[2208] Okay, that's greenery or flowers?

[2209] Well, I think that's implying smell, right?

[2210] Oh, yeah.

[2211] Well, you're not supposed to do that.

[2212] Okay, no, zero.

[2213] Okay, zero.

[2214] Designing the decorations?

[2215] Yes, high, 10.

[2216] High.

[2217] Yeah, love lights.

[2218] Deciding the menu?

[2219] Seven, I do shit on a shingle, yeah.

[2220] Okay.

[2221] Creating a playlist.

[2222] That would be high.

[2223] I go seven on that, too.

[2224] I'm in charge of the Vince Guraldi Christmas Peanuts soundtrack over Sonas.

[2225] Sonus is a great product Doing an activity to set the mood Hang ornaments, carve pumpkins, light spark with Really quick, can we take one second to acknowledge How hilarious it is was that once you introduce a time clock To something, it completely short -circuits everything Like the relaxed nature that you and I normally have a fact check Has gone out the window of this very arbitrary notion of not editing.

[2226] And it means nothing.

[2227] No, but it does.

[2228] But it does.

[2229] You have to make it not.

[2230] Or you sound insane, which is what we sound like right now.

[2231] I know, but it does because I know what comes out.

[2232] I know you do.

[2233] I know.

[2234] Yeah.

[2235] I edit a show as well.

[2236] And yeah, I totally get it.

[2237] But I'm just, I want to acknowledge how funny it is that I just said sonas or whatever.

[2238] I said sonas or whatever I just said.

[2239] I always say crazy stuff.

[2240] I don't think that has to do with this.

[2241] I could feel that it was this.

[2242] Peanuts also sounded like you said penis.

[2243] There you go, yeah.

[2244] I mean, I'm like I'm batting 20 % with my diction right now.

[2245] That's pretty funny.

[2246] That's common and great.

[2247] And on brand.

[2248] Okay, what about doing an activity to set the mood?

[2249] That's hang ornaments, carve pumpkins, light sparklers.

[2250] Not really.

[2251] You have three.

[2252] Okay.

[2253] That one for me is the highest.

[2254] Lightning sparklers.

[2255] Hanging ornaments.

[2256] and carving pumpkin, like doing all those things?

[2257] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[2258] Okay.

[2259] Monica, we're not editing.

[2260] You have to read the next question.

[2261] You have.

[2262] What did you do?

[2263] Do you fall asleep?

[2264] Have you forgotten we're not editing?

[2265] Stop it.

[2266] It takes a second for it to go.

[2267] Oh, you're waiting for it to load?

[2268] Yes.

[2269] Okay.

[2270] And in that big valley of nothing, I took a big sip out of my, what are we these called Rob?

[2271] Cream top, and I had cream top muffin all over my mustache.

[2272] It really did.

[2273] Yeah.

[2274] Would you, in preparing for Christmas, like to look like Santa Claus?

[2275] Give yourself a big, bushy, white mustache?

[2276] No, because I don't like doing an accent or dressing up or anything.

[2277] Character work.

[2278] And then you think this mustache is character work?

[2279] Yeah.

[2280] And I think I forgot, because we're unedited, that people can't see you.

[2281] So I thought you made a mistake.

[2282] Right.

[2283] But you didn't.

[2284] Yeah.

[2285] You were worried you were going to have to cut that out.

[2286] but there's nothing to cut out.

[2287] Okay.

[2288] Ooh, what experience would be most likely to make you feel a wave of nostalgia?

[2289] Mm. Getting a whiff of a place where you once spent a lot of time.

[2290] Yeah, that's a 10 out of 10.

[2291] Okay, that's a 10.

[2292] What about finding a stack of photos from the past?

[2293] Ding, ding, ding!

[2294] Oh, um, eight.

[2295] Okay.

[2296] Hearing a favorite song from a certain time.

[2297] How nostalgic does that make me?

[2298] There's the recognition that I know this song.

[2299] Sure.

[2300] Um, I'd say six, seven.

[2301] Okay.

[2302] Yeah.

[2303] Eating a snack that you haven't tasted in years.

[2304] Oh, that's powerful.

[2305] It is.

[2306] Yeah.

[2307] Can we go with an aid on that as well?

[2308] Because that's like our chicken sandwich burger king.

[2309] Yeah, the rectangle sandwich.

[2310] Yeah.

[2311] Holding an item.

[2312] Blanket, t -shirt, beloved stuffed animal that you treasured.

[2313] Nope.

[2314] Two.

[2315] Okay.

[2316] All right, I wonder how long this.

[2317] It's fair like 80%.

[2318] Oh, great.

[2319] 80 % of the way done?

[2320] Oh, okay, great.

[2321] If you stayed at a fancy hotel, which arrival gift would you be happiest to receive?

[2322] These are very creative questions.

[2323] They are.

[2324] I love Gretchen.

[2325] It's like storytelling.

[2326] Yeah.

[2327] Free admission to live music in the hotel bar.

[2328] Okay.

[2329] We'll come back to that one.

[2330] A luxurious robe and slippers to wear during your stay.

[2331] Okay, you would love that.

[2332] Yeah.

[2333] Yeah.

[2334] And that's a problem.

[2335] because I'd only like it because it was a thing that I could like take home Okay A keepsake A souvenir Tangible Artifacts I do And But you also like to wear a Like you like to take a bath And wear a robe I don't love to wear a robe I have like five robes And I never wear them Yeah me either I've been given them over the years And I love the idea of it Same But I'm like, when do I put this on?

[2336] It just doesn't fit into my schedule at all.

[2337] And would I be nude under it?

[2338] I know.

[2339] Because if I'm going to put underwear on, then I'm just...

[2340] Going to put clothes on.

[2341] Yeah, I'm going to put my sleep pants on.

[2342] I think you're supposed to be nude.

[2343] You know, I wear a sleep slack.

[2344] Sleep sack.

[2345] I do.

[2346] A very thin sleeping slacks.

[2347] Oh, you mean your underwear when you sleep?

[2348] Well, I don't wear underwear, but I wear a sleeping slacks.

[2349] Wait, tell me. What is it?

[2350] Like a me and these lounge pants.

[2351] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, yes.

[2352] And there's some other brands in there.

[2353] I do love meandies, but I have a couple different sleep slacks.

[2354] And because my legs will sweat.

[2355] Like if I lay on my side, which I mostly sleep on my sides, then my thighs laying on each other.

[2356] Oh, and they get sweaty.

[2357] And they'll get sweaty.

[2358] So I have to wear a sleep slack.

[2359] I've figured out.

[2360] I didn't need forever.

[2361] I just slept in boxers for most of my life.

[2362] Then I switched to meundies.

[2363] But I like to give my testicles and my penis a little air, free air time.

[2364] Sure.

[2365] Without being so encumbered.

[2366] Okay, all that to say, where does a robe fit into that program?

[2367] I, like, it's an intermediate item.

[2368] I think it's for the morning.

[2369] Like, people wear them in the morning.

[2370] To go downstairs when it's chilly.

[2371] That kind of makes sense, but you're already what you're in your jammies and then you put a top.

[2372] It's a top coat.

[2373] at that point.

[2374] I don't understand it either.

[2375] Okay, so that's a zero for you.

[2376] A collection of beautifully photographed postcards of the area.

[2377] That's pretty nice.

[2378] That's pretty nice.

[2379] I give that a six.

[2380] Yeah, I think I like that.

[2381] Yeah.

[2382] An assortment of fine chocolates.

[2383] Let's pretend they're gluten -free.

[2384] Right, let's pretend I eat sugar and stuff.

[2385] Ding, ding -ding -ding.

[2386] I was, shockingly, six days of eating out at restaurants.

[2387] I didn't fuck up.

[2388] Oh, wow.

[2389] I didn't eat gluten.

[2390] I didn't eat eggs.

[2391] I didn't eat any of the things I don't eat, which would include sugar.

[2392] Okay.

[2393] And I got on that flight home yesterday and it was like, it's a long flight for Miami is five in change and we sat on the runway, blah, blah, blah.

[2394] Something happened where when they offered Hot Fudge Sunday.

[2395] Oh.

[2396] I said, yeah, let's do that.

[2397] She said, would you like chocolate, caramel, or strawberry sauce?

[2398] And I said, yes, please.

[2399] Oh my God, you got them all?

[2400] I got all three, and it was outrageously delicious.

[2401] There was so much sauce in there.

[2402] It was like perfectly 50 -50 sauce and ice cream.

[2403] It was delicious, and I made it all the way until then, but I did have that.

[2404] That's good.

[2405] Did you ask if they had Cherry Garcia?

[2406] No, I didn't ask, because I know when they have Cherry Garcia, they just offer it to you.

[2407] And those little cute one -offs.

[2408] I think weird's happening.

[2409] I'm just realizing.

[2410] Uh -oh.

[2411] I'm only offered ice cream desserts when I'm on flights where you are also on them.

[2412] Something's up.

[2413] You know what I think it is?

[2414] Something's up.

[2415] Well, I have an explanation for that.

[2416] Okay.

[2417] You and I have generally been on very long flights.

[2418] Like most of the flights you and I have been on together have been in New York.

[2419] I'd say first, if we had to pick one destination, we've most people.

[2420] on planes for.

[2421] I guess.

[2422] And then also we had like a long -ass flight to go to that island we went to.

[2423] Yeah, Turks and Kekos.

[2424] The point is I think that comes out in the service when it's a long flight and they can do the dinner and then they have a full dessert thing.

[2425] Because I haven't been offered that in a long time.

[2426] It was because I was on a five -hour flight.

[2427] But I came back from D .C. That was extremely long.

[2428] Excruciating.

[2429] Yeah.

[2430] And there was no Sundays or Cherry Garcia's.

[2431] Or cookies even.

[2432] Who was the flight provider?

[2433] Delta.

[2434] This was American yesterday.

[2435] Oh, my God.

[2436] Yeah.

[2437] I'm not going to say who I flew out on me because obviously I had a hard time.

[2438] I don't want anyone to think I'm...

[2439] Will you mouth it?

[2440] Yeah.

[2441] Yeah, okay.

[2442] But the point is, I had a hot foot someday.

[2443] Okay.

[2444] Back to the quiz.

[2445] Back to the quiz.

[2446] Okay.

[2447] So what do you want to say about fine chocolates?

[2448] Yeah, I love it.

[2449] I mean, I'm not going to eat it, but I love it.

[2450] So higher than the photographs?

[2451] Because you're not going to take those postcards home.

[2452] I know you.

[2453] I know.

[2454] I don't want anything.

[2455] This also happened on the weekend.

[2456] Sorry to keep bringing it back to the weekend.

[2457] But you know, you get, you collect weird stuff.

[2458] Like, you get some hats and you get this and you get that.

[2459] Yeah, yeah.

[2460] And I was just looking at all this stuff that was accumulating in my hotel room.

[2461] And I'm like, my goal on a trip is to come back with less stuff than I have, not more.

[2462] Oh, my God.

[2463] Right.

[2464] We have opposite agendas, yeah.

[2465] Okay.

[2466] A set of sashage.

[2467] made from fragrant herbs.

[2468] I don't even know what that is.

[2469] What's a sashay?

[2470] It's like a little pouch and it makes things smell good.

[2471] A pulpery.

[2472] Pot -pery.

[2473] Yeah, but it would be like travel.

[2474] Like you could keep it in your suitcase that you don't care at all.

[2475] 10 out of 10?

[2476] Wait, what about the live music in the hotel bar?

[2477] We never...

[2478] This is really, really tricky.

[2479] Is the live music Steely Dan?

[2480] Then 10.

[2481] Is the live music like the singer -songwriter, boozy captain of a small vessel that, I don't know.

[2482] Thank you for making up a name and not saying a real name that would have had to edit out.

[2483] I wouldn't.

[2484] That was my dilemma too.

[2485] Yeah, is it bad music in the lobby or great music?

[2486] I would assume hotel music is not going to be great.

[2487] That is so rude.

[2488] Yeah, that is so rude.

[2489] But anyone that you would want to see is probably playing at a bar down the street.

[2490] That's going to cost money.

[2491] This is costing money.

[2492] That's why it's a gift.

[2493] It's free admission.

[2494] It's something that you would have had to pay for.

[2495] So it's the hottest hotel in town with the hottest venue We should say the Ace Hotel because they have the theater at Ace Hotel connected to it and they get good shows there Oh my fucking God.

[2496] Okay so in that scenario do your computer just die?

[2497] It's a perfect ending It's actually absolutely perfect thing.

[2498] I'm doing it I've got it in tandem over here.

[2499] Oh you've been adding those same results?

[2500] Wait, why are you?

[2501] For this exact reason No, no no no We need to I've been answering for myself and I was going to ask at the end if we think this is gendered because I've been on the same page with you.

[2502] Okay, interesting.

[2503] Okay, interesting.

[2504] So do you want to take us through the end of the quiz or was that the last question?

[2505] No, I think I got two more.

[2506] Okay.

[2507] If you were talking to an expert, whose expertise would you find most interesting?

[2508] A musician who scores music for movies and television.

[2509] Hmm.

[2510] I'm going to answer that one.

[2511] Are we going to go?

[2512] Well, don't I want to hear all my options before I pick an order?

[2513] An artist who explores optical illusions.

[2514] Oh, that's kind of intriguing.

[2515] A designer who decides the weight and texture of well -known consumer products.

[2516] A scent designer who creates unexpected naturalistic smells.

[2517] A cookbook writer who recreates food from the past.

[2518] Okay.

[2519] Definitely the optical illusions.

[2520] I find it so fun to see an optical illusion.

[2521] So that's like an 8?

[2522] That's a 10.

[2523] 10.

[2524] All right.

[2525] And then film composer probably is an 8.

[2526] Okay.

[2527] And then, you know, that scent is zero.

[2528] Zero, yeah.

[2529] So you got designer who decides the weight and texture of well -known consumer products?

[2530] Hmm, that sounds a little boring to me. I'll give that a three.

[2531] Three.

[2532] Cookbook writer.

[2533] They're also presumably a chef.

[2534] I'll give that a five.

[2535] Okay.

[2536] All right, Monica's now gotten herself a stinger.

[2537] That was it, but I need.

[2538] I don't know if that works.

[2539] Well, sometimes Wabiwob, he really.

[2540] is protective about plugging things in and out.

[2541] That one works.

[2542] I've recently moved it to your outlet because the Keggerator was on a power strip and that power strip moved sometimes.

[2543] I'm sorry, I would normally would have edited all of this out.

[2544] Oh my God, move on, move on, move on, do the next one.

[2545] That was it.

[2546] I have to put my email in now to get our results.

[2547] Okay, great.

[2548] We'll see how quick.

[2549] We'll figure out.

[2550] But I guess I'm feeling like it's going to go in order of sight sound taste touch scent okay your most neglected sense is touching oh touching okay there's a lot of a lot of writing okay big paragraph yeah okay consider these ways to awaken your appreciation for this neglected sense okay I will have fun with your sense of touch usually shop online go to a store try cryotherapy or visit a sensory deprivation tank Fold a paper airplane or origami.

[2551] Oh, that is pleasurable.

[2552] Run your fingers across tree bark, seashells, glass bottle, or a wicker basket.

[2553] Okay.

[2554] Visit stores that inspire your hands, gardening store, hardware store, music store.

[2555] Seek out interesting textures in your daily life.

[2556] Okay.

[2557] Well, that's, we're going to have to call it.

[2558] That's not what you thought.

[2559] That's not, but you would have, meaning I would have guessed, smell was the lowest, yeah.

[2560] It's curious, because I do feel like it consistently got the least.

[2561] And because you do like touch.

[2562] I do.

[2563] I really like touching human beings.

[2564] And I feel like you like textures.

[2565] You like clicking.

[2566] I do like clicking, yes.

[2567] So.

[2568] You answer pretty low, though, on a lot of the touching ones, because it was, like, what did you get pleasure in the last week doing?

[2569] And they never ask if you touch yourself or touch someone else's body.

[2570] So it wasn't the kind of touching.

[2571] That's not what...

[2572] Mine had the masturbation question.

[2573] I don't know.

[2574] It did.

[2575] Oh, that's interesting.

[2576] That is not what she's after, you know.

[2577] Right.

[2578] She wants the actual sensation of touch.

[2579] It's not probably the same as what you're getting from touching a person.

[2580] Or like what is eroticism.

[2581] Exactly.

[2582] That's more chemicals, I think.

[2583] Sure.

[2584] Oxytocin.

[2585] Sexual.

[2586] Not necessarily.

[2587] Well, that's true.

[2588] That's true.

[2589] Like long.

[2590] Like hugging.

[2591] Yeah, no, you're right.

[2592] I hug a whole host of people, yeah, without any sexual energy.

[2593] Okay.

[2594] All right.

[2595] This is really fun.

[2596] The hidden arrow in the FedEx.

[2597] Did you finally see it?

[2598] Yes.

[2599] I could not, I cannot believe.

[2600] I've gone my whole life without noticing that.

[2601] That was the first time you had experiencing.

[2602] I didn't even know about that.

[2603] I didn't even know.

[2604] Oh.

[2605] And I feel.

[2606] I felt stupid, but it felt good.

[2607] Yeah.

[2608] And now did you find every time you see a FedEx truck or, because they litter the streets?

[2609] They do.

[2610] They're everywhere.

[2611] But then there's more.

[2612] Like I did a sort of deep dive on.

[2613] Famous logos.

[2614] Yeah, on logos that have hidden stuff in them.

[2615] Okay.

[2616] Well, you know about the Amazon one, right?

[2617] Because we've talked about that.

[2618] What is it?

[2619] The Arrow, also in Amazon, is from the Amazon.

[2620] A to the Z. So it's like everything from A to Z. Oh, I didn't put that together.

[2621] That's clever.

[2622] Yeah, someone told me about that.

[2623] Soup to knots, A to Z. Okay.

[2624] Well, on this unedited, I can't find it.

[2625] You can't find the logos.

[2626] Yeah.

[2627] That's okay.

[2628] Wait, oh, maybe I put a, I didn't.

[2629] Oh.

[2630] I didn't put a hyperlink.

[2631] That's okay.

[2632] But I did do a hyperlink on this one.

[2633] Can you remember any of them off the top of your head?

[2634] Yeah.

[2635] Toblerone.

[2636] Okay, the triangle chocolate.

[2637] Yep, there's a bear, a hidden bear on it, and that hidden bear has to do with the region of where the chocolate is made.

[2638] Okay, it's known for its bears.

[2639] I'm going to look it up real quick because it's worth it.

[2640] Hidden logos, hidden logos.

[2641] From sentientanimals .org.

[2642] Oh, did you know?

[2643] Okay, yeah, hold on.

[2644] Oh, one I remember was Toyota.

[2645] This is cool.

[2646] Yeah.

[2647] Okay.

[2648] You, it spells Toyota.

[2649] It spells.

[2650] Okay, T. Uh -huh.

[2651] Y, O. T, Y, and the O. This is a T, that's an O. Uh -huh.

[2652] This is a Y, that's an O. Uh -huh.

[2653] that's an A. So within the logo itself, all the letters can be spelled.

[2654] Wow.

[2655] That part, that's cool.

[2656] Good job, Toyota.

[2657] I want to know how much of this was intentional and how much is just a happy accident that people figured out later.

[2658] I know, but I want it to be real.

[2659] It's like symbolism that people find in things.

[2660] Well, did you know about Baskin -Robbins?

[2661] 31 flavors, tell me. It's 31.

[2662] The pink is 31.

[2663] Oh, my gosh.

[2664] I didn't see that.

[2665] Right, so just to refresh people's memories, now on the Baskin -Robbins, it just says B and R, Baskin -R, B, but the B is half -blue and half -red, and the R is half -blue, pink, pink, and black or whatever.

[2666] Blue.

[2667] And then the inside is a 31.

[2668] Yes, I did not notice that.

[2669] That's a fun one.

[2670] Okay, speaking of blue -black, gold, white dress.

[2671] Okay, because we talked about that.

[2672] Yeah.

[2673] Um, there's a lot of articles about why that happened.

[2674] And it's about the way we perceive light and the camera, because it was with a iPhone.

[2675] Uh -huh.

[2676] And it's weird.

[2677] It's like if you are used to, let me find it.

[2678] Oh, my God.

[2679] Oh, my God.

[2680] Oh, my God.

[2681] Oh, my God.

[2682] It's up.

[2683] I just have so many tabs.

[2684] Yeah.

[2685] Okay.

[2686] So some people are used to different lighting conditions than others.

[2687] This is long.

[2688] Should I read on an unedited?

[2689] I'm going to do it.

[2690] Okay.

[2691] People's perceived color is also informed by their perception of lighting.

[2692] And the image of the dress, taken on a cell phone, contained a lot of uncertainty in terms of lighting conditions.

[2693] Was it taken inside or outside?

[2694] This matters because it implies artificial or artificial or not.

[2695] natural light was a dress illuminated from the front or the back.

[2696] This matters because if it was backlit, it would be in a shadow, otherwise not.

[2697] The brain cannot be accused of epistemic modesty.

[2698] It is well known that in situations like this where it faces profound uncertainty, it confidently fills in the gaps in knowledge by making assumptions.

[2699] Usually its assumptions are based on what it has most frequently encountered in the past.

[2700] This is AI.

[2701] This is exactly how AI works.

[2702] Yeah.

[2703] It looks like the most high percentage pattern and plugs that in.

[2704] But that's what our brain is doing.

[2705] Yes, our brain is AI.

[2706] But what's fascinating is that we're not all the same, obviously.

[2707] Well, right.

[2708] We, A, see different patterns.

[2709] Yeah.

[2710] And B, we have different frequencies.

[2711] So the percentage that we're predicting at is different.

[2712] Yeah.

[2713] Okay, for instance, if the sensory information is more uncertain, observers will estimate object speeds to be.

[2714] I just remember we were unedited and I got.

[2715] nervous to be slower than they actually are presumably because slow objects i don't want to talk about slow objects okay um we're here to learn about this dress as the illumination conditions are impossible to clearly assess in the dress image people make assumptions different people do this in differing ways which is what causes the different interpretations of color thanks to 13 000 people who took surveys on what they saw when they saw the dress and also compiled other information about how they generally perceive the photo in the world.

[2716] Remember, the dress is actually blue and black.

[2717] Okay.

[2718] Though most people saw it as white and gold, at least at first.

[2719] If you assumed the dress was in a shadow, you were much more likely to see it as white and gold.

[2720] Why?

[2721] Because shadows over -represent blue light.

[2722] Mentally subtracting short wavelength light, which would appear bluish from an image will make it look yellowish.

[2723] So there's, okay, there's all this stuff here.

[2724] But anyway, that's interesting.

[2725] Incredibly interesting.

[2726] It's like that optical illusion I sent you where even when it's explained to you, your brain will never see it because it has an interpretation of what a window is.

[2727] Yep.

[2728] And it's a window spinning.

[2729] And your brain will just make sense of the physics.

[2730] Based on what it knows.

[2731] What it knows about physics and windows.

[2732] And it preclude you from ever seeing the reality of it.

[2733] What a metaphor.

[2734] Right.

[2735] When I saw that, I immediately said, yeah, when you're telling people with trauma to just be like, you know, don't live in your past, blah, blah, blah, it's like, hmm, that's pretty simple, that's a simple statement.

[2736] I know.

[2737] And go try to look at this optical illusion and not know what a window looks.

[2738] Like, you can't.

[2739] I know, that's something my therapist and I talk a lot about is not like what people should be doing or what we want.

[2740] It's like, what can they do versus what can't they do.

[2741] Some of us, we all have things we can't do.

[2742] We have actual limitations.

[2743] Right.

[2744] And it's knowing that about people that I think makes, you know, that's helpful.

[2745] It's helpful to know, like, this person just actually can't do that.

[2746] So stop trying to get them to do that.

[2747] Yes.

[2748] They're not going to because of their history and X, Y, and Z. I know.

[2749] And we're in tension junkies.

[2750] So it's like, really all we want to know is someone's giving it 100 % for us.

[2751] Yeah.

[2752] And if we find out 100 % for them is slower and less reliable, fine.

[2753] They're trying as, that's all we're really looking for.

[2754] Yes.

[2755] Well, and you can then make decisions based on people's limitations.

[2756] You can say, well, that's then not a person I can be around or I need to limit my time with them or whatever.

[2757] But there's a lot of, there's a lot more empathy around it.

[2758] They're not choosing to not do this.

[2759] They just can't do it.

[2760] Yeah.

[2761] And I don't have to engage, but.

[2762] Well, mostly I don't have to take a. personal or take it personal yeah exactly okay nails on a chalkboard all right i hit her with the theory of that the sound makes me think of what it would feel like oh you're gonna love this and then i i have a hunch that's what everyone thinks that their nails are going to break right that was a good theory okay not the case but here but this is uh this source is npr oh finally i know blindly trust i love when i get NPR is a source, because I know you'll trust me, finally.

[2763] That in front line.

[2764] Okay.

[2765] He said, this guy on NPR, said the most obnoxious frequencies of the noise are amplified by the shape of the human ear canal.

[2766] So it actually has to do with the shape of our ears that make that particular sound.

[2767] There's, again, like lots of science stuff in here.

[2768] Mm -hmm.

[2769] About vectors and quadrants and core techniques.

[2770] Open ear gain and the pitch, the very specific.

[2771] specific pitch and the shape of our ear, it, like, exasperbates?

[2772] Thank you.

[2773] God, I would have cut that.

[2774] I know.

[2775] But you can't.

[2776] It exacerbates the sound.

[2777] Well, the whole time crunch is what's exacerbating all of the other stuff.

[2778] Anyway.

[2779] So it's the shape of our ear canal.

[2780] Okay.

[2781] Mix with the frequency.

[2782] It's a perfect storm of situations with.

[2783] with this specific sound that causes that to be universally repellent.

[2784] God, don't you don't think of your fingers on that chalkboard?

[2785] I do.

[2786] That's what gives me the hebe -jeebies.

[2787] But some people have it even, most people have it actually, when sometimes chalk does it if you do it a very specific way.

[2788] That high pitch.

[2789] Yeah.

[2790] And so.

[2791] It always happens to like a professor who's already nervous as well.

[2792] And then they start writing on the chalkboard and they go, too flat with the chalk and it makes that noise and then you're like oh my gosh now they're making that noise and they're already nervous and now it's too much.

[2793] Do you think it's because they're unedited?

[2794] Yeah largely yeah.

[2795] I think so.

[2796] All right let's see.

[2797] That's a Seinfeld take that life in general could go for a good edit.

[2798] Yeah.

[2799] Yeah.

[2800] It really is.

[2801] Oh, one thing that happened in Atlanta that I do want to say.

[2802] Here we go.

[2803] I ran into the Armchair Anonymous pooped his pants at work guy.

[2804] Yes.

[2805] And he specifically destroyed the bathroom, right?

[2806] It did not all stay in his pants, as I recall.

[2807] And then he just left.

[2808] Remember, he went back to his house.

[2809] Yeah.

[2810] And got and regrouped.

[2811] And he had said to you, if you're ever in Duluth, my wife wants to drink wine with you.

[2812] Yeah.

[2813] And then by crazy coincidence, you ran into the wife on a previous trip.

[2814] I did at crate and barrel.

[2815] Crate and barrel.

[2816] And how was that exchange?

[2817] Great.

[2818] She just came up to me and said, my husband was on Archer Anonymous.

[2819] Yeah.

[2820] And then this time I was at a wine bar and she was there.

[2821] She's working on her dissertation.

[2822] Shout out.

[2823] At a wine bar?

[2824] Yeah.

[2825] That's my style.

[2826] Okay.

[2827] Yeah.

[2828] Get like a good 12 minutes of work done before the bus kicks in.

[2829] No, you can you can work perfectly on a 15 % buzz.

[2830] It actually does something great for your brain.

[2831] That's science.

[2832] It probably makes you optimistic.

[2833] Yeah.

[2834] And takes away that voice that's telling you you're never going to memorize this or you're never going to write this.

[2835] Right?

[2836] Yeah.

[2837] I also think what it does is you're doing something you like while doing something you don't.

[2838] So at least one thing is happening of your choosing.

[2839] Right.

[2840] Your preferred thing.

[2841] Yeah.

[2842] The problem is then you have to stop because then you will drink too much.

[2843] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2844] Sometimes I don't know when to stop.

[2845] Right.

[2846] Well, no, that sounded.

[2847] I would edit that out.

[2848] You, did you get shit -faced on this trip?

[2849] No, I didn't.

[2850] Even a little more tipsy than you would have normally had gotten?

[2851] When you were your old friends, you know, tip them back a little quicker?

[2852] Not quicker.

[2853] Longer?

[2854] We did get tipsy at that wine bar because they started to give us a lot of wine, which was so nice, and it was so good.

[2855] But not too tipsy.

[2856] Okay.

[2857] Not more than normal.

[2858] I didn't drive.

[2859] You think?

[2860] I can't remember.

[2861] It's all blur.

[2862] Oh, wait.

[2863] She brought up odor fatigue, and that was a ding, ding, ding.

[2864] Because we had just done a fact check on Paris Hilton about her sense.

[2865] Her cleanser.

[2866] Nose fatigue, odor fatigue.

[2867] And we were going to come up with the name.

[2868] We never did.

[2869] Because remember you said sniffer.

[2870] But it didn't really make sense.

[2871] We scrapped that.

[2872] We scrapped that.

[2873] It doesn't work.

[2874] Yeah, it doesn't work.

[2875] But that's okay.

[2876] All right.

[2877] I'll try to mull it over and have a good one for you.

[2878] But I know other, if I sit here and just spitball, think tank it, you're going to need to edit, you know.

[2879] It's a bad, yeah, it's a bad prompt.

[2880] I agree.

[2881] Like come up with a great name for this product.

[2882] I know.

[2883] It's really risky.

[2884] We can't do it.

[2885] It's too high risk.

[2886] We can't do it.

[2887] I'd rather just.

[2888] tell you I love you and bid you of farewell.

[2889] I love you too.

[2890] I'm delighted your home.

[2891] I'm delighted your home.

[2892] We're back in the attic.

[2893] It feels like we've been gone a long time.

[2894] And I'm glad you never left, Rob.

[2895] Yeah, I've been, I've been here.

[2896] It feels good to know that we had a person on the ground.

[2897] A mooring here in L .A. Yeah.

[2898] And I relied on Rob a lot while I was gone, you know?

[2899] Great.

[2900] Yeah, he's Johnny on the double.

[2901] All right.

[2902] Thank you.

[2903] Bye.

[2904] I love you.

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