283 - MFM Guest Host Picks #6: Danielle Henderson

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Hello, and welcome to my favorite murder.

[2] My name is Danielle Henderson.

[3] I am the guest host this week.

[4] I am also the co -host of the I Saw What You Did podcast here on the Exactly Right Network.

[5] And I am so excited to bring you some stories today.

[6] I've been friends with Karen for a while and I'm a fan of this podcast and a fan of this work in general.

[7] George is a new friend, but I just really, I wanted to pick some stories that kind of give a feel for not just what the show is, but also what their personalities are, because I think their personalities is what brings most of us to the show.

[8] I originally wanted to pick the Mary Vincent story because when I first heard that story, I texted Karen like eight times throughout and was just like, I cannot believe this.

[9] What?

[10] Oh, my God.

[11] I cannot believe this.

[12] What?

[13] It really, it is the pinnacle of stories to me, one of the most harrowing stories I've ever heard.

[14] But luckily, there are several of those in this in the catalog of my favorite murder.

[15] So let's get to it.

[16] So I picked for Georgia's story, who put Bella in the Witch Elm from episode 10.

[17] It's an early episode, which I think is always fun to revisit.

[18] And I love this story because it kind of has, it has such a distinct mystery element to it.

[19] And it really has a questioning element to this story that leaves you wondering what actually happened.

[20] I love the way Georgia tells the story.

[21] It's just so full of humor.

[22] And I think that that's also part of the reason why I chose this story is that you really get to see the back and forth between Karen and Georgia in the early iteration of the show and their personality.

[23] ladies are just on full display.

[24] So without further ado, here's who put Bella in the witch elm.

[25] Okay, you're going to go first this week?

[26] Yeah, I'll go first this week.

[27] So we're ready for our favorite murder.

[28] Are you ready?

[29] All right.

[30] So this week, we're doing, I picked it, I picked a topic and then I hated it.

[31] So I made, I said, Karen, what's your dream topic?

[32] Do you remember what the topic was before?

[33] It was vintage unsolved.

[34] Oh, right.

[35] Then I got really angry and was like, I can't do this.

[36] Yeah.

[37] And I said, Karen, have you picked?

[38] pictures yet and you said no what's your dream topic and then I just didn't answer you because I was like NYUB that Mind your opus No no not at all You said you said weird murders Yes which like basically is we've done so many already I mean we've also done like kids killing kids We've done so many things that like we're the category idea Yeah We're just trying to organize our thoughts It's trying to help us like go down a path that's not an infinite path.

[39] Yes.

[40] Okay.

[41] But also like what murder isn't weird.

[42] Oh, totally.

[43] It's kind of an aberration just in it.

[44] But, you know.

[45] Well, I thought there was a couple that I wanted to do.

[46] And I also don't want to do one that everyone, like there's something about the, maybe it's just the podcast, the Facebook group that like everyone in that fucking group knows every murder.

[47] Yes.

[48] Like they know everything, which is like so fun.

[49] but I don't want to disappoint them.

[50] Yes, same.

[51] You know what I mean?

[52] So I picked one.

[53] I was going to do the Taman Shood case.

[54] Yes.

[55] You know what I mean?

[56] It's an unsolved case of an unidentified man found dead in 1948 in Australia.

[57] And in his, he watched up on the beach and in his pocket was a piece of paper with the phrase Tomenshoud, which means, meaning ended or finished in Persian, printed on a little scrap of paper.

[58] And they don't know who he is, where it came from, what his deal is.

[59] It's a fascinating.

[60] case if you don't know it which you probably everyone probably knows it and it's still unsolved right yeah okay um and so is this one the one that i picked as my favorite weird murder uh called who put bella in the witch elm is that yours i no no no but i just listen to i just listened to a different podcast about this it's great it's also called the hagglywood's mystery sometimes this is a good one so in april nineteen forty three which is obviously in the middle of war war two four boys from Stowerbridge in the UK were poaching when they came up.

[61] Can you say that one more time?

[62] Stowbridge, UK.

[63] They were poaching.

[64] They came across a large witch elm.

[65] It spelled W I -T -C -H or W -Y -C -H in different postings.

[66] I can't really tell.

[67] I think it's W -I -T -C -H.

[68] And they found a witch -elm on an estate belonging to a lord.

[69] They thought it was a good place to hunt birds' nests.

[70] And so they tried to climb into the tree to investigate, and they found a skull and they thought it was an animal and then they saw human teeth and hair attached to this and they had found a human school so they went they were like here's a great idea let's not tell anyone because we'll get in trouble for being on the lord's land like you guys boys if you ever find something say something or you look fucking suspicious your parents won't be mad at you for being on someone's land if you find a skull everyone knows lords or dicks look we've all dealt with asshole lords before we've all trespass on land that belongs to lords and if you find a body you should tell someone so the youngest kid it was like of course it's the youngest kid's like i'm scared mommy mommy mommy uh and he told his parents and the police check the trunk of the tree they found an almost complete human skeleton a shoe a gold wedding ring and some fragments of clothing.

[71] And then on further investigation, a severed hand was found buried in the ground near the tree.

[72] The body was examined by Professor James Webster, and he established that the skeleton was a female who had been done for at least 18 months.

[73] At the time of death must have been around October 1941, he discovered a section of taffeta lodged in her mouth, suggesting she had died from exfixiation and I wrote or from fashion in my notes she died from the 80s oh Georgia oh Georgia go for it go do it the measurement of the trunk which the body was placed in made him think that she must have been placed there still warm after the killing as she could not have fit in once rigor mortis had taken hold rigor mortis is I'm fascinated by it it's just my god because it sets in but then it goes away right I think it goes away after like 10 days, but you can, I feel like you can also break it with enough force.

[74] Listen, everyone put on the Facebook group whether or not this is true or not.

[75] Yeah, what do you know about rigor mortis?

[76] Clearly, someone knows something.

[77] That's a good podcast, too, by the way.

[78] So it's our offshoot podcast.

[79] Someone knows something about rigor mortis.

[80] Okay.

[81] So the woman's murder was in the midst of World War II in the UK, which clearly had a lot of action going on so it hampered the investigation um police could tell from the items found what the woman looked like what was so many people reported missing during the war they they really couldn't tell like find out who it was they did a nationwide search of dental practices which came up with nothing which i feel like in 1941 the nationwide search of dental practices was not very thorough yeah you're like calling up on one of those like crank wall phones of like, you know, Hey.

[82] Strowbridge, 3, 9, 4, 7, 8.

[83] Have you seen a cap on an incisor 3?

[84] We don't do those here.

[85] Yeah.

[86] Bye.

[87] And it's also a barbershop.

[88] I love our, I love our dental.

[89] Hey, we are.

[90] They're British people that talk like they're from the Bronx.

[91] Perfect.

[92] From a movie from the Bronx.

[93] This is good radio.

[94] But again, all the, just the facts here, you guys.

[95] That's all you got.

[96] The facts and only the facts.

[97] This is a real boring podcast.

[98] So people eventually kind of forgot about the woman in the treat Until the graffiti started What an ominous fucking line This is the beginning of Banksy Someone wrote Who put Lula Bell down the witch elm In graffiti And then someone wrote The Hagley Wood Bella Then someone wrote Who put Bella in the witch elm And the graffiti appeared on walls Throughout the West Midlands which is near where it happened, seemingly by the same hand, which is a fucking, I love handwriting analysis so much.

[99] Me too.

[100] It was last painted onto, the graffiti was last painted onto the side of a 200 -year -old obelisk, which is like spooky as fuck.

[101] Yeah.

[102] On the 18th of August 1999 in white paint.

[103] That's some, that's some, what was the, that's some toy and be tile shit.

[104] Yes, that's right.

[105] It just continues on.

[106] What the fuck.

[107] So, let's see.

[108] Okay, a couple of theories that the hand buried close by could have been a hand of glory, which I actually talked about recently on the Slamber Party.

[109] It's a dried and pickled hand of a man who has been hanged, often specified as being the left hand, or if the man was hanged for murder, the hand that did the deed.

[110] And they, old European beliefs attributed the great powers to a hand of glory combined with a can.

[111] They made it the fuck, basically they made a fucking hand.

[112] of someone who was hanged into a candle.

[113] And so when people would break into someone's house, they would bring it with them for good luck.

[114] That's pretty much what it was.

[115] So it was a cultist type of thing, which is like, look, there's a hand buried nearby.

[116] What does that mean?

[117] I feel like the glory part is a bit of a misnomer.

[118] It's horrifying.

[119] It's a disembodied hand.

[120] The hand of stolen.

[121] They put the wicks on the tip of the fingers.

[122] Like if someone broke in my house with that, I would run.

[123] So of course it would get away with it.

[124] Take all of my jewels.

[125] Bye.

[126] I'd be like, bye.

[127] Okay, bye.

[128] You got me. Later days.

[129] So I read this part from, this is all from like Wikipedia and random websites.

[130] This is from the unredacted.

[131] It wasn't until 1953 when journalist Wilford Jones started to write about the old case.

[132] That interest was revived.

[133] And he would soon receive the first solid lead in nearly a decade.

[134] This is in 1953.

[135] There was a letter signed only Anna offered new details of what had happened to Bella.

[136] According to the letter, Bella, I love this, had been murdered because of her involvement with a Nazi spiring operating in the Midlands in the early 1940s.

[137] Hundreds of German spies were captured in Britain during the war and the Midlands would have been a valuable source of intelligence because of its prevalence of munitions factories.

[138] Wow.

[139] Really fucking cool.

[140] So the journalist.

[141] You never think of England is having spies like that.

[142] It's like you think of because it's an island.

[143] over by itself.

[144] Yeah.

[145] How did they get there?

[146] Well, this is what's the theory.

[147] No, no, no. I didn't write this down, but this is one of the theories is that she parachuted in and somehow ended up in the trunk of the tree.

[148] I call bullshit on that theory.

[149] Maybe someone, maybe she parachuted in and they found her and killed her and put her in the tree.

[150] The idea that you would parachute in to be a spy and you would parachute down into it into the trunk of a tree is you are the dumbest, unluckiest spy who's the worst at paris.

[151] listen she's in a plane she grabs she gets scared so she grabs a handful of her taffeta stuffs it in her mouth she doesn't scream too loud on her way down hits her arm her hand comes off the force buries it in the in the ground this is all absolutely feasible it's doable it's doable wait a second what material taffeta is like prom dresses taffeta isn't parachutes right no taffeta i feel like it's an underscurt material okay okay or maybe it's a lacy collar okay okay like a high like Victorian Lacey Collar.

[152] It's not like Nilein.

[153] We're not talking.

[154] It's a different thing.

[155] That would be cool.

[156] I thought I had a theory.

[157] But you know, at the same time, though, these stories are passed down so long that it, someone could have said it's taffeta and that stuck.

[158] True.

[159] Which is the problem with these old crimes is like, they just get told so many times that these things would come back.

[160] So I'm going to say that she had parachute nylon stuffed in her mouth.

[161] Let's change the story to work for us.

[162] We're flipping the script.

[163] Okay.

[164] then the journalist got a letter from this woman.

[165] Anna claiming Bella had died after getting involved in a World War II Nazi spiring and she said, finish your articles on the witch elm crime by all means.

[166] They're interesting to your readers, but you will never solve the mystery.

[167] The one person who could give the answer is now beyond the jurisdiction of the earthly courts.

[168] That's a great way to say someone's dead.

[169] We're now called my favorite beyond the jurisdiction of the earthly courts.

[170] God, earthly courts.

[171] I know.

[172] The affair is closed and involves no witches black magic or moonlit rights basically this witch is like i know what fucking happened shit so do you think that witch did you say witch or bitch that bitch knows what no no witches black magic or moonlight rights like she's saying it wasn't a witchcraft oh because it is in the forest i know creepy yeah and she's found in a fucking trunk of a tree like that's that's um some what was the the show recently with um america harrison no woody harrison so true detective that's some true detective shit right there season one baby season one fuck season two season two is slop although we did see colin um feral at the movie theater the other night and i almost told him your performance in true detective season two was masterful the only saving grace of that show that episode season and my girl rachel macadams i do love her no she just bores me she just talks like this all the time and she bores me i know i know but she has perfect like she always has a good bob yeah she's a great bob she has a nice tall forehead i'm jealous of her face she can love a tall forehead i really do because mine is like a three head it is the shortest all my bangs are an atrocity nothing works nothing works you should shave the front part of your forehead like like an edwardian just get it waxed and it'll look like oh my god i want to barf like how bar how you used to cut your barbie's hair off in the front for me and here's bangs still grow in.

[173] You know, I used to do baby bangs like in the early 90s when I was a big drunk.

[174] Like little foofies?

[175] I can't tell you how my face looked like a straight up full moon.

[176] I looked like the blood moon walking around working at the gap.

[177] You talk about your photos from when you were younger so much and I've never seen them.

[178] I'm dying to see them.

[179] I've scrubbed the internet of them.

[180] Fuck.

[181] Please don't scrub my brain of them.

[182] Okay.

[183] Sorry.

[184] No, this is the best part.

[185] After subsequent correspondence, Anna revealed herself to be a woman named Una Mossup and told the full story.

[186] She said her husband Jack worked on a local munitions factory, again, the munitions factory in the early 1940s and come into some money after meeting a mysterious Dutchman.

[187] He later admitted to Una that the Dutchman was a Nazi agent and Jack had been passing him information about the local industrial sites.

[188] Listen, you asshole.

[189] Yeah.

[190] This is why we fucking lost the word.

[191] No, I mean, kidding.

[192] We didn't.

[193] We actually won the word.

[194] Good news, Georgia.

[195] I'm totally kidding.

[196] let's see so which in turn was passed to another agent posing as a cabaret performer at local theaters the midlands had been bombarded by the luftwaffe in the early forties and such information would have been invaluable to the nazis to target their raids when they would have done the most damage to britain's war effort violent and the Dutch agent strangled the woman in the car.

[197] Fearing for his own life, Jack helped carry the body into the nearby Hagley Woods where the pair buried it in the hollow of an old tree.

[198] That sounds reasonable.

[199] Yeah.

[200] That's, I mean, it sounds insane, but like a reasonable explanation.

[201] Also, sorry to say, but it's kind of a good idea to bury a body inside of a tree.

[202] Totally.

[203] It's like, it's like now how they're doing, uh, they're doing burials when you can be like, I want to be a pod and you can get buried in the woods now.

[204] Oh, right.

[205] But it's against your will.

[206] But it's only the only difference.

[207] Listen, stick with me. It's an eco burial, but you don't have a choice in the matter.

[208] This totally makes sense to me. And I was going to say something else and I forgot.

[209] So, yeah.

[210] Oh, I feel like there's so many murders that are solved because an ex -girlfriend, a jilted ex -lover, ex -girlfriend is like, hey, FYI, here's what happened.

[211] Totally.

[212] I didn't say because I was scared from it, which I totally believe.

[213] Like, you eventually tell.

[214] Yeah.

[215] I mean, because that guy had a lot to lose.

[216] If he was like passing info.

[217] Then if she said anything, yeah.

[218] He probably told her I'll kill you if you.

[219] I mean, like, she thought he would die.

[220] She didn't want him to die either.

[221] She loved him.

[222] Yeah.

[223] And then he slept with her sister.

[224] And she was like, listen, fuck this dude.

[225] Is that the reason why she said, oh, oh, totally going to say this.

[226] No, me awful.

[227] Okay.

[228] Okay.

[229] So Una's husband was apparently so traumatized by the brutal murder of Bella that he had a nervous breakdown, tormented by horrific visions of a woman's skull in a tree.

[230] And he was institutionalized in 1941 and apparently died later that year.

[231] So that sounds totally plausible and feasible.

[232] And it sounds like it happened immediately.

[233] Like he went through the trauma and then just freaked out.

[234] It turns out, nobody knew this, but Nazis are assholes.

[235] Oh.

[236] Yeah.

[237] They should have mentioned that in the fore.

[238] They kill people.

[239] They could have got involved in that war earlier.

[240] Ooh, get in Palinical.

[241] I said it.

[242] You heard me and I said it.

[243] It's like everyone from there, that era's dead.

[244] I don't care that you said it.

[245] It's true.

[246] There's like one 90 -year -old veteran that's like, how dare you?

[247] I came here to listen to a motor podcast.

[248] Not a rant against the Luftwaffe.

[249] Yeah.

[250] So that sounds, I like that theory.

[251] Again, I like it and it fits very well and it could have changed a lot and who knows if it's true, but it's a good one.

[252] Yeah.

[253] So, yeah, you guys want to, there's actually a good photo of the skull.

[254] If you go online it's called the, so this is the who put Bella and the Witch Elm or the Hagleywood's mystery.

[255] You can see some cool photos from back then.

[256] Every time I watch British TV, I want to go there because it's such a rich and storied past, but stuff like that, like you don't even think about it.

[257] Aside from the fact that they got the shit bombed out of them during World War II, and it was like total chaos and insanity.

[258] you imagine these like these proper british people got the shit bombed out of them and they didn't react like what i love is that it's so british that that whole keep calm carry on where it was just like nobody was allowed to be like can you believe this shit or freak out or anything they're all like all right are you ready for tea well even the even the army the british army was like there are these here are these rules that we have to follow and i think that's why we had to step in is that were like, there are these rules of war, but these Nazis are not following them.

[259] No. And you think that, like, combat is this, like, old tradition.

[260] It's not anymore.

[261] But, you know, these proper British people, God bless them.

[262] I know.

[263] And just the fucking amount of civilians that were just game is awful.

[264] It's crazy.

[265] On both sides.

[266] World, I mean, yeah, World War II.

[267] I will follow.

[268] into any world war two black hole that whole thing anytime it's a people going back what i really like is when people go back and try to talk to german people citizens today oh my lord from that era and how defensive and freaked out they get yeah what it what an incredible scar on the history of german people and how terrible they feel and how it's just just a strange thing if you ask them it's not it wasn't their fault they weren't you know they're weren't part of it.

[269] They weren't supporting it.

[270] I mean, I totally understand why someone like Adolf Hitler would have looked so, um, appealing in the beginning.

[271] Yep.

[272] And that was a country that was like on its knees for years and years and years.

[273] Because we, we made them do that after World War I. We spanked them.

[274] Yeah.

[275] Not that they didn't deserve it.

[276] But it's just that thing of like, keep an eye out for somebody that likes a scapegoat.

[277] It's usually, scapegoats are usually a minority person.

[278] Yeah.

[279] I can't speak up for themselves.

[280] I'm going to say it what you are not saying.

[281] Go ahead.

[282] Donald Trump.

[283] Let's not get into it.

[284] That motherfucker.

[285] Yeah.

[286] Oh no. We just lost thousands and thousands of listeners.

[287] Good.

[288] If you, oh, those, I don't want them.

[289] Those are the people who come after us.

[290] Those are not our 2000 Facebook group followers.

[291] Please, are you kidding me?

[292] That would be unbelievable.

[293] So I just love, that one's weird to me because I just love that she was found in a tree.

[294] I know.

[295] It's just so fascinating to me. It also feels like that's the kind that in it, you feel like in maybe five years, they'll have that solved somehow.

[296] I feel like it's one of those ones that it's solved in that there's some obvious explanation that one, that one I just read, but it's too late.

[297] It'll never be.

[298] And then isn't it weird when you hear about vintage murders and you're like, he's 67 now and he got arrested me. Like, oh my God, I thought he'd be dead.

[299] Yes.

[300] He's 67 or whatever.

[301] But that guy, I mean, I mean, it's such a, that's a tough arrow pointing straight to the guy that immediately has a nervous breakdown and basically dies.

[302] I mean, I kind of feel badly for that guy because, yeah, what is it going to be like, no Nazi who just killed your, like, counterpart female?

[303] I'm not going to help you.

[304] Right.

[305] Of course he is.

[306] Of course he is.

[307] And now he's stuck.

[308] He can't tell anyone because he's being treasonous.

[309] He's treasonous.

[310] Bitch.

[311] Guys do not sell your government secrets.

[312] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shop.

[313] Absolutely.

[314] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash.

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[331] Goodbye.

[332] Whoa, what a great story.

[333] So my pick for Karen is from episode 45, and it is the tale of Lord Lucan.

[334] I think I picked both of these because I really enjoy the mystery elements to them.

[335] But this one in particular has so many incredible details, and to hear Karen tell it is just, as you just get sucked into the narrative.

[336] of what could possibly have happened, even though we all kind of know what happened.

[337] But I think it's just a really important, an important example of what white guys can get away with, I think.

[338] So here we have from episode 45, the story of Lord Lucan.

[339] So I have, because of watching the killing season and how heavy it is and how it feels like everyone in the world is a serial killer by the time you're halfway through with it which in some ways is a fun feeling.

[340] It's fun, isn't it?

[341] I like it.

[342] And yet you're still alive.

[343] We made it, everybody.

[344] So I switched over as a palette cleanser.

[345] I started watching The Crown, which is a wonderful Netflix series.

[346] British procedural?

[347] It sounds British.

[348] Is it British?

[349] It's the story of Queen Elizabeth.

[350] I figured.

[351] God, I'm so smart.

[352] The newest one.

[353] yeah it's so in a way it is kind of a British procedural wait it's the newest show about the about about like how she got became the queen and what her life was like privately she's like a badass she's a total badass there's parts in it I want the crown TV show to come out with their own book on how to be politely assertive yeah because that's her and also I want them to come out with the color of lipstick that she's wearing because it's this perfect shade of pinkish red that would actually look at, I can't wear red because my teeth are yellow as little corn niblets.

[354] You're very fair.

[355] I'm very fair with red in my skin.

[356] So red lipstick on me makes me look like I have been smoking crack in the alley.

[357] I look like a fucking, what do they call them, a rockabilly and it's obnoxious.

[358] Yeah.

[359] Well, this is like this muted brownish pink lipstick.

[360] I bet it's, I bet they make it for her.

[361] There's not even a thing you can fucking buy.

[362] Get what I bet they, well, we have a fucking lip gloss.

[363] that was made for us, too, that that girl sent us.

[364] That's right.

[365] So the queen, I'm sorry.

[366] It's not that fucking special.

[367] But I want the queens because it.

[368] Because we've started doing coke before everyone.

[369] Back to being 14.

[370] So as, so I blended into, uh, this very British kind of fancy regal area.

[371] Yeah, like controlled.

[372] Yes.

[373] And, uh, aristocratic, which is, I mean, like, if, if I was a, that time, I would be, like, truly the dishwasher in the bottom part of the basement.

[374] Like...

[375] Oh, it's Karen.

[376] Do you need a candlestick?

[377] And I wouldn't, but with an Irish accent, which for some reason I can't through right now.

[378] So I decided that my murder is going to be that of the infamous story of Lord Lucan.

[379] Have you ever heard of him?

[380] I don't think so.

[381] Okay, this one's pretty good because it involves British aristocracy and a disappearance.

[382] you know I love disappearances all right so um and also I was going to do this story after remember when we did Harmontown and then we met that British couple outside on the street and they were on their honeymoon oh my god they were so sweet they were so sweet and they were just getting tattoos and they were having like this amazing honeymoon and they'd come to see us and they didn't even ask for a photo which is like they didn't ask you know Americans do that yeah they didn't want a photo they kind of want us to go away a little bit but they were like hi we came to see you.

[383] We came from England to see you, which meant the world to me. We didn't get their names.

[384] No. But hi, shout out.

[385] If you're still listening.

[386] Sweet angels.

[387] Pipp.

[388] That wasn't a fucking pander to the audience when I said sweet baby angels.

[389] No, that was natural.

[390] It felt very natural.

[391] Thank you.

[392] So I was thinking of doing Lord Lucan after we met them of like, hey, this is shout out to you, but that was what, six months ago or something?

[393] So I brought this word document back out and began to fill it out again.

[394] So here's the story of this guy.

[395] He, it was born John Bingham.

[396] And he was born on December 18th, 1934 to an aristocratic family in Marleybone, which is the funniest name for, it's a neighborhood, I guess, in London.

[397] Oh, you're going to get, I don't care what you say next.

[398] You're going to get a correction about like what it is.

[399] Pronunciation.

[400] It's not in London.

[401] It's actually in Wales.

[402] It's not a neighborhood.

[403] It's a fucking.

[404] It's fucking in New York.

[405] and it's a town talking in New York.

[406] Bye.

[407] Yeah, this whole, I'm, I once again am flying in the face of, of logic and just trying to be British once again.

[408] Aim for the fucking nose.

[409] Aim for the stars.

[410] Aim for that button nose.

[411] So this, so John Bingham, during World War II, when he was a boy, he was evacuated out of London, out of Marley Bone.

[412] They're going to be like, it's pronounced.

[413] Melibin.

[414] Yeah, totally.

[415] He was evacuated to Wales and then to Canada.

[416] And he got to live with his rich, like, friends of family.

[417] That sounds nice.

[418] Relatives, yeah, who are like crazy rich.

[419] But then when he came back to England, when the war was over, he was sent to Eaton College.

[420] Now, I was thinking about this in my head, but I didn't look it up.

[421] I think over there, Eaton is like a boarding school that's like, grammar in high school.

[422] It's not necessarily a college, like we think of college.

[423] They have like finishing school, right?

[424] Where like you pass your, again.

[425] Where you put a book on your head?

[426] Save it if you want to fucking email, text us, that were, tweet us that we're wrong.

[427] It's like a. Someone in England tell us what eat in college is.

[428] No, no, I don't care.

[429] No, I don't tell me. But I think it's like a finishing school.

[430] No, I'm going to keep saying that until you agree with me. This time you said it like you'd been thinking about it and now you've decided.

[431] It's a finishing school.

[432] I think it's like high school and perhaps...

[433] Like a boarding school.

[434] Yeah.

[435] Anyhow.

[436] Finally, we agree.

[437] So when he was there, he supplemented his pocket money with...

[438] He was a bookie.

[439] Oh.

[440] That's cool, right?

[441] Yeah, I think it's very cool.

[442] I do too.

[443] He had a secret bank account.

[444] Oh, my God.

[445] And he made money...

[446] As a kid?

[447] As a kid.

[448] My grandfather was a bookie.

[449] For real?

[450] Yeah.

[451] barber shop front barber quote unquote okay nice anyway sorry um so this kid he would leave the school grounds go to horse races take bets and he was like the school bookie badass that's so cool love it well the bad part the uncool part is that he turned out to be a terrible compulsive gambler later on take that back but when he's a kid that's cute yeah so he got the nickname lucky lukin after winning 26 ,000 pounds at the card game Chimendifur in Le Tour, Le Tuque.

[452] None of that's real.

[453] None of it is meaningful to me in any way.

[454] But he won a game a bunch of pounds.

[455] And so that's what made him think, I'm lucky and I should be doing this all the time.

[456] Um, so, so, uh, when he got out of school, he was in the army for a little bit and then he, um, started a job as a merchant banker.

[457] Um, but he had, uh, very expensive tastes because he was still an aristocrat.

[458] His parents were very, um, very, what do you call that?

[459] I was going to say staunch, but that's from gray gardens.

[460] It's, um, they were, they didn't spend a lot of lot of money.

[461] They were like religious and what's the word?

[462] When you try to, I'm like making a gesture on my chest.

[463] Yeah, like frugal.

[464] Frugal.

[465] There we go.

[466] This gesture worked for me. How long did that fucking take?

[467] If this podcast is two hours long, it's because we're trying to remember words that neither of us can.

[468] Who could enjoy this?

[469] I don't know.

[470] It's madness.

[471] Even Stephen is like, can you get your fucking shit together.

[472] Okay.

[473] So he, had a very expensive taste because he was still an aristocrat at the end of the day and he was raised you know by rich people in north america um so he his he had taste for the best russian vodka he liked to race power boats um and then in from this lift of at wikipedia donate to wikipedia by the way if only just three dollars oh can you donate to wikipedia yeah yeah it's all that they're yeah they're actually having like they're kind of like public television right now i didn't know that And they're trying to get people to give them money because they just, they need to stick around.

[474] I have so many questions.

[475] I mean, I love Wikipedia, but I won't ask them right now.

[476] If you click on there right now, the thing will come up to say, please give us $3.

[477] Okay.

[478] And then we'll do it.

[479] That's, yeah.

[480] I mean, it seems fair for all the shit they give me. Oh, my God.

[481] The hours I spent when I had a desk job looking at unsolved murders and serial killers.

[482] And, uh, love it.

[483] So anyway, this guy basically.

[484] He's living the life.

[485] He likes the best of all things.

[486] I was just going to say, at the end of this sentence, they were like, he had the best tastes.

[487] He loved the best, you know, he raced boats.

[488] He loved Russian vodka and smart cars, which I think in England probably means smart, like cool cars.

[489] But here means tiny toy -looking cars that are the stupidest looking cars you could drive.

[490] I just time travel too because those didn't exist.

[491] Right.

[492] Like, how cool would that be if he were just like.

[493] They were like, he invented the smart car.

[494] Yeah.

[495] All right, anyway.

[496] He was also very charismatic.

[497] He was six foot two with a quote from Wikipedia, a luxuriant mustache like Stevens.

[498] And he was once considered to play the role of James Bond.

[499] Oh, shit.

[500] So he's that, you see a picture of him on Wikipedia.

[501] He's pretty cute.

[502] He's very British aristocratic looking, kind of like pointy nose.

[503] I won't.

[504] It's a high class.

[505] It's a British thing.

[506] Pointy nose and kind of like, he looks like he'd be like very good hey man my husband my husband is the spitting image of prince william so what am i going to that's exactly right clearly i'm into british shoes yeah no complaints um also at one point he was ranked among the top 10 uh the world's top 10 backgammon players so there you have it kind of cool badass yeah talk about sex i mean i don't know what backgammon is exactly but i bet it's hard it's you know what it is it's like chess for drunk people is what it is.

[507] All right.

[508] It still sounds like I don't think I like like chess for drunk people to me is like bingo.

[509] Connect four is chess.

[510] That's right.

[511] For drunk people.

[512] Bingo.

[513] Okay.

[514] So he meets his wife Veronica Duncan at a golf club function and they get married on November 20th, 1963.

[515] And when they get married.

[516] So Lord Lugan's finances when he was a young man and he was gambling so much.

[517] it got a little iffy in there because he was just like going for it and like I'm in a boat race I have to have an Aston Martin you know he was like living the life and spending all that money so when he marries Veronica Duncan um his father gives him what was called a marriage settlement so he gets a big chunk of money to buy a house to prepare for having kids like this whole so he's basically kind of like up in up in the in the black sexist got it um two months after he gets married, I called him Old Man Lucan.

[518] Old Man Lucan dies of a stroke.

[519] And so John Bingham inherits 250 ,000 pounds and his father's titles, which are Earl of Lucan, Baron Lucan of Castlebar, Baron Lucan of Melcombe, and Baronet Bingham of Castle Bar.

[520] I don't know what any of this means.

[521] It's meaningless.

[522] So, cute, the mean emails.

[523] It's not meaningless.

[524] It's super meaningless.

[525] Don't shoot foxes, right, everybody?

[526] Okay.

[527] So the problem is that he has a very serious gambling problem.

[528] So at first, it was hot and cute, and he's James Bond.

[529] And after a while, it's like, put the fucking backgammon down.

[530] What are you doing?

[531] And he's still spending money like an aristocrat.

[532] So he's like, you know, he's got an open account at Saville Row, Taylor's.

[533] You know what I mean?

[534] People are making.

[535] Dude, those suits.

[536] The spoke clothing for him.

[537] The spoke.

[538] Yeah.

[539] Look at you, Karen.

[540] I know.

[541] I want to be rich really bad.

[542] Do you?

[543] Really bad.

[544] Really?

[545] Not just rich, though.

[546] I want to be, like, Lord Lucan.

[547] I want to be an aristocrat.

[548] What would you do?

[549] What would you like?

[550] I guess I would just drink and smoke cigarettes all day.

[551] Because you can just do it at that point because.

[552] Yeah, you can kind of, yeah, you can just kind of, well, it's the same thing you can do if you were basically a bum.

[553] Remember that intervention where the woman had, like, inherited so much money that she was like, why should I not be an alcoholic?

[554] And then they were going to take her to a rehab that was like a 14 hour, like a five hour flight, but she insisted on getting a limo because she wanted to bring her cats with her.

[555] So she put her cats in the limo.

[556] Oh, I got it was the vest.

[557] Holy shit.

[558] She took a cat road trip.

[559] Yeah.

[560] She like put cat boxes in the limel.

[561] Like she's me if I just had a shit.

[562] And like no one could say anything because like she wasn't going to lose anything.

[563] Because she was, did it work?

[564] Did she get sober?

[565] I don't know if there's maybe there's.

[566] Hopefully there's a follow up.

[567] I don't.

[568] Oh, man. It's been, I haven't, I stopped watching that because it's real depressing.

[569] It turns out she ate all those cats.

[570] She got really drunk and then she got hungry and she ate those cats.

[571] Oh, it was poor baby.

[572] I mean, sorry, fucking right field.

[573] Loving it.

[574] Left field.

[575] There's, there's downside to being an addict.

[576] I think we all know this.

[577] We've tried to tell you over and over.

[578] Yeah.

[579] Okay.

[580] So, um, so he and his wife have three kids, George and Camilla and a third.

[581] one that for some reason is on this list.

[582] And some of, you know, the youngest kid never matters.

[583] Am I wrong?

[584] Yeah, seriously.

[585] I'm living that life.

[586] That's why we're murder podcasters.

[587] Yeah, that's why we're doing what we do.

[588] So Veronica is struggling because she also has three kids in this very short amount of time, of course.

[589] So she's struggling with postnatal depression.

[590] Honey.

[591] And Lord Lucan takes her for treatment at a psychiatric clinic.

[592] She refused to be admitted, but she did agree to home visits from a psychiatrist.

[593] and taking a course of an antidepressant.

[594] So she's trying to take care of it, but she won't, like, you know, really go take a full break or whatever.

[595] She's like, I can handle this.

[596] Well, then that combined with the pressures of maintaining their finances and his, I mean, he, I read this thing, I didn't include it, but there was a thing of, like, how he would spend his days.

[597] Oh, my God.

[598] It's so hilarious because he would, like, get up and eat breakfast and then go to his gaming club and just gamble all afternoon.

[599] gamble yeah and you know he was probably drinking too of course and then he would come home and get dressed and then put on like his tuxed drinking him cigarettes probably oh yeah and you can't wash that off after a while and then he just went out to drink and eat and smoke and gamble more that was just that's all he did all the time i would have that's not postnatal depression that's fucking depression yeah that she had because she was like what the fuck this is not what i fucking so went to finishing school for so basically in the two weeks after a very strained family Christmas in 1972, Lord Luke, it moved out.

[600] And then they get into this bitter custody battle.

[601] And the Justice Awards custody to Veronica.

[602] Divorce didn't happen back then.

[603] Yeah, it wasn't good.

[604] And I'm sure for aristocrats.

[605] You could push him off the couch.

[606] Elvis is ripping up Karen's notes.

[607] My precious writing.

[608] Okay.

[609] Okay, so She is awarded custody of the three kids And that's all he wanted Why would he want just to fuck with her, right?

[610] Well, no, no, no, he really, I'm sure really loved his children And it was very important to him But also, I think it was part of this thing And he didn't think she was a fit mother Knowing that she had postnatal depression I think he was partly worried And then also partly he was an addict And needed to control things maybe, I don't know.

[611] there's something going on he gets awarded like every other weekend visit and he gets really obsessive about it so he starts spying on her to prove she's an unfit mother um he's recording their phone conversations um he becomes fixated on her and what's happening he also is his drinking gets really bad and his gambling he goes crazy with the gambling and all of his friends are like he's in a downward spiral um and then all the a sudden, um, the week of, uh, November 7th in 1974, he seems to like suddenly be, pull it together.

[612] And, um, he, there's a couple, first -hand stories of people who, um, like, had dinner with him and he, they tried to talk to him about what's going out with the kids.

[613] And he changes the topic to politics.

[614] And so they're like, oh, maybe he's rounded the corner.

[615] Maybe it's out of his system.

[616] Yeah.

[617] Um, so on the evening of November 7th, 1974, he had a bunch of plans with people that he didn't he just didn't show up and that night the children's nannies Sandra Rivett puts the younger children to bed and at about 855 she asks Veronica if she'd like a cup of tea and so she heads downstairs to the basement kitchen so there that's a fucking sweet -ass mansion yeah I'll go down to the to the maid's kitchen I'm not going to use your nice high class kitchen to make tea.

[618] So she goes downstairs to the basement kitchen to make Veronica some tea.

[619] And as she enters the room, she is bludgeon to death with a lead pipe, a piece of bandaged lead pipe.

[620] And her killer places her body in a canvas mail sack.

[621] So meanwhile, upstairs, Lady Lucan wonders what's delaying the nanny.

[622] So she walks down the first floor stairs To see what's happened And she calls from the top part of the stairs She calls down to Rivet And to see what's going on And the guy comes up and attacks her With the lead pipe as well Oh my God And she starts screaming for her life The attacker tells her to shut up And that's when Lady Lucan knows She tells the cops later That she knows it's her husband So she survives.

[623] This guy's got like a mask on or something?

[624] I think the lights were out.

[625] Like it was dark.

[626] So she's kind of calling down.

[627] She doesn't know what's going on and then this guy comes up.

[628] And she thinks she's just getting attacked.

[629] And then she realizes it's her husband, according to her.

[630] So they get into this fight.

[631] She bites his fingers.

[632] He throws her face down in the carpet.

[633] And she manages to turn around and squeeze his testicles.

[634] Good girl.

[635] Release.

[636] Steven.

[637] Stephen just really felt that.

[638] And causing him to release his grip on her throat and give up the fight, she asks where Rivet is.

[639] And Lucan was at first evasive, then eventually admits that he just killed her.

[640] So what they believe is that he thinks, he thought it was Veronica walking into the basement kitchen.

[641] Oh shit.

[642] He was trying to kill his wife.

[643] And he accidentally killed the nanny.

[644] So this is according to Lady Lucan.

[645] So Lady Lucan, is terrified she tells him she'll help him escape if he would just well she's trying to get okay so she says i'll help you escape you just have to stay here for a couple days and hide out and allow my injuries to heal because she's been hit with the lead pipe and everything oh my god so um lukin uh she walks upstairs oh i'm sorry lord lukin the the oldest daughter um wakes up bed and she and then the wife Veronica goes in to the bedroom lays down she's bleeding and he puts down towels for her and like don't get don't get the bedding stained with blood weird so he asks her does she have any barbiturates he goes into the bathroom to get a towel and supposedly clean her face and that's when lady lucan realizes that um he won't be able to hear her if he's in the bathroom and so she runs out of the house with their kids still there though yeah but but she i think she knew that he didn't want that it was about her and that the attack was about her right because she also did report earlier that he had um once hit her with a cane and once tried to push her down the stairs so there he had gotten physical with her before but he i think she trusted that he wasn't going to harm their children yeah that's crazy that's what it seemed like so she runs out of the house and she runs to a nearby public house called the plumber's arms oh let's when we're in england's go get a drink there we have to go to a pub called the plumber's arms so what like big hairy arms hairy but like with a tattoo what kind of bulldog tattoo is that yeah a bulldog would be good yeah or um an anchor of a course of a course an anchor or maybe just a just a queen elizabeth's face i mean she's a mad ass everybody loves her everyone loves her everyone loves Okay.

[646] Okay.

[647] So the police, they call the police.

[648] The police go to the house.

[649] But meanwhile, Lord Lucanis called his own mother and tells her of a terrible catastrophe that's happened at his wife's home.

[650] He tells his mother, you have to come here and get the children.

[651] Then he drives a borrowed car to his friend's house in Uckfield, East Sussex.

[652] And then hours later, he leaves that property, leaves the car there, and he's never seen again, and has never been seen since.

[653] No. Swear to God.

[654] No. So that car was found...

[655] He's the one missing?

[656] Yes.

[657] He's the one missing.

[658] He disappeared.

[659] He disappeared.

[660] No, this is...

[661] I was not expecting that.

[662] Yeah.

[663] James Bond is out and about.

[664] Dude.

[665] The car was found abandoned in New Haven.

[666] And the interior was stained with blood.

[667] And the trunk had a piece, boot, for those of our friends in England, had a piece of bandaged lead pipes similar to the one found at the crime scene.

[668] So there's one that a nanny was killed with that was left at the crime scene.

[669] And there's another one that's in this borrowed car.

[670] And we don't know what, why was all the blood in the car and we don't know what that lead?

[671] He was covered in blood.

[672] Okay.

[673] And I don't know if there were two.

[674] There's no explanation.

[675] is just, I'm not sure.

[676] Holy shit.

[677] So, but then also, um, he left a letter to the owner of the car that said, my dear Michael.

[678] So he basically borrows this car from this guy.

[679] He's like, hey, can I borrow your car for a while and then just gets blood all in it, abandons it and he's crazy.

[680] And he says, my dear Michael, I have had a traumatic night of unbelievable coincidence.

[681] However, have you?

[682] I won't bore you with anything or involve you, except to say that when you come across my children, which I hope you will, Please tell them that you knew me and that all I cared about was them.

[683] The fact that a crooked solicitor and a rotten psychiatrist destroyed me between them will be of no importance to the children.

[684] I gave Bill Shandkid, which is his brother -in -law.

[685] I gave Bill Shand Kid an account of what actually happened, but judging by my last effort in court, no one, yet alone a 67 -year -old judge, would believe, and I no longer care except that my children should be protected.

[686] Yours ever, John.

[687] So he's basically saying whatever happened at the house was some weird coincidence that he happened upon.

[688] His excuse is that, and I think there was a, it was in a different letter, that he walked into the house and his wife was being attacked by an intruder, which the wife is like, no, I'll tell you exactly how it happened, like step by step.

[689] Yeah.

[690] And then also you can trace it all back to the car and the blood and everything else.

[691] Yeah.

[692] Point the fucking way.

[693] So they put out a warrant for his arrest a couple days later.

[694] And in his absence, the inquest into Rivid's death named him as her murderer, which was the last time ever that Britain's coroner's court was ever allowed to do that.

[695] So they were basically like, this guy did it.

[696] Oh, without a trial.

[697] Yeah.

[698] So a thorough search of New Haven Downs was judged impossible.

[699] I don't know if that's, what's New Haven Downs?

[700] What's a thorough search?

[701] What's anything in this fucking world?

[702] I pictured New Haven Downs to be just full of a bunch of brambles.

[703] Charming as fuck.

[704] It's like the Moors, but brambly.

[705] Brambles everywhere.

[706] Brambles and scones or scones.

[707] Scone.

[708] A partial search was made using tracker dogs, although all that was found were the skeletal remains of a judge who had disappeared years earlier.

[709] I'm sorry.

[710] What?

[711] Yes.

[712] Yes.

[713] So when they do search New Haven Downs, this impossible to search area, They find unrelated, clearly.

[714] They find skeletal remains of a judge.

[715] All right.

[716] Maybe how about once a year you search New Haven Downs?

[717] Get some fucking puppies out there.

[718] They love doing it.

[719] Give them a run around.

[720] It's fun for them.

[721] Find a judge.

[722] Police diverged search the harbor.

[723] So basically they went everywhere and tried to find this guy.

[724] This guy's more important than a fucking judge.

[725] That's right.

[726] He's a way bigger deal.

[727] He is among the top 10 backgammon players in the world.

[728] You have to find him.

[729] Must find him.

[730] They don't find.

[731] So basically they can't find anything.

[732] They used infrared photography.

[733] They don't, I don't see where.

[734] They use smart cars.

[735] Smart phones.

[736] So a warrant for Lucan's arrest to answer charges of murdering Sandra Rivett and attempting to murder his wife was issued on Tuesday, November 12th, for 1974.

[737] And descriptions of his appearance.

[738] were issued to Interpol, so it could be Internaccio now, and of course all across the UK.

[739] So apparently it's this, it's, oh, since that time, been a great British pastime to theorize where Lord Lucan is.

[740] And people love saying they saw him places.

[741] So the reports have been coming in pretty consistently year after year saying, I saw Lord Lucan here or there.

[742] And so some of the places they have reported him, seeing him, was as a hippie dropout in Goa, which I don't know.

[743] I don't know where that is.

[744] Where he was known, they said he was known there as Jungle Berry.

[745] As you do.

[746] It's the best nickname of all time.

[747] Is it?

[748] They said he was about backpacking on Mount Etna.

[749] Someone said they saw him working on a sheep station in the Australian Outback.

[750] Yeah.

[751] Those all sound like things people who run away from life would do.

[752] Yeah.

[753] To get as far away as possible.

[754] They're like trying to not have an identity anymore.

[755] Right.

[756] Which would make sense.

[757] Yeah.

[758] But John Aspinall, who was the owner of the Claremont Gaming Club, which is the place he used to go like around lunchtime every single day, said, told the news, I find it difficult to imagine him in Brazil or Haiti as a fugitive.

[759] I don't think he has the capacity to adapt.

[760] Which is kind of rough There was also a rumor Aspinall owned a private zoo And so there was a rumor that he was cut up And fed to the tigers at that zoo And he, Aspinall, when told that rumor, responded, my tigers are only fed the choices cuts Do you really think they're going to eat stringy old lucky?

[761] Oh my God And the most plausible theory is that he drowned himself in the channel that's what most people think yeah but here's this is just an interesting um another coincidental thing um 13 years later so when they had um that nanny uh that sandra rivet was their nanny but they had had a nanny right before um her and her name was christabel uh i can't find her last name um bell Krista Bell Bell And you don't see it But her name is Christabel something or other And turns out She was married to an economist named Nicholas Boyce And on October 10th, 1985, Nicholas Boyce was sent to prison For dismembering his wife And dumping her pieces of her body around London So it was her The nanny one before this One that got caught up also was murdered by her Fancy husband So fancy husbands are just fucking running them up Which I thought was Oh and also They convicted him of manslaughter But not murder And he was sentenced to six years in jail Oh that's no big deal Manslaughter No big just just kill her and throw Her arms and legs around the city And then Yeah so Cannot That's the story Oh sorry it was Christabel 32 Was a former governess of the children of Lord Lukan, who vanished without a trace, after another nanny was battered to death at his home.

[762] Do you think he did it?

[763] What, killed Lukan or whatever the fuck?

[764] Killed the second nanny?

[765] The first nanny.

[766] Oh, hell yes.

[767] Wait, both nannies.

[768] No, no, no, no. The second one got killed by your husband.

[769] Oh, okay.

[770] Later.

[771] Okay.

[772] That was later on.

[773] 13 years later, the second nanny gets killed in what is a coincidence, but is super creepy because what the fuck is going on.

[774] I thought it was the first, okay.

[775] Yeah, I know.

[776] But the first, I'm sure, the way everything adds up.

[777] It's just basically where did he go after?

[778] Did he immediately kill himself or did he actually go?

[779] He's D .B. Cooper.

[780] Yeah.

[781] Did he shave that, that luxuriant mustache off and go live somewhere for a while?

[782] You could go anywhere you want back then.

[783] And also with all his money.

[784] Oh, bye.

[785] Charming and, you know, Miss Dapper.

[786] He probably wants to like Monte Carlo or something.

[787] That's what I was thinking, too.

[788] How old is he now?

[789] How old would he be dead?

[790] He's dead now.

[791] he was proclaimed to be dead.

[792] No, no, no, but like, how old would he be?

[793] Like in his, the article that I said where they proclaimed him dead, I think they said he was, like, would have been 81 or 82.

[794] That's livable, especially if you're living the fucking backgammon high life and fucking Monte Carlo.

[795] Backgammon doesn't take that much out of you.

[796] No. Yeah.

[797] No. And if you're just pickled with gin, you can live for a really long time.

[798] I bet you he's still alive.

[799] I mean, it would be pretty cool.

[800] We should make a rule that people have to confess stuff.

[801] on their death.

[802] Like on their deathbed, they have to confess things.

[803] Yeah.

[804] Like you're not, yeah.

[805] That'd be nice.

[806] Wouldn't it?

[807] Just to solve a couple mysteries.

[808] Yeah.

[809] Like, don't take shit to your grave.

[810] Yeah.

[811] You're being a selfish dick.

[812] So that's my good times.

[813] Uh, that was amazing.

[814] High class murder mystery from England.

[815] Never heard that one.

[816] Please let us know all the mistakes from that one as soon as you can.

[817] Or don't.

[818] Or go, go, uh, you know, every time you get mad at this podcast, go give three dollars to Wikipedia.

[819] We're going to solve all of Wikipedia's problems.

[820] Wikipedia's going to be like, they're going to be like, thank you.

[821] We got an influx of thousands and thousands of so much money.

[822] Oh, I love that story.

[823] Just privilege on full display.

[824] Thank you so much for listening.

[825] Again, you can find me as the co -host of I Saw What You Did podcast here on the Exactly Right network with Millie de Chirico.

[826] I just wrote a book.

[827] It's called The Ugly Cry.

[828] It's out now.

[829] and don't forget to stay sexy and don't get murdered.

[830] Elvis, do you want a cookie?