Chris Bosh

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair experts starring Monica Padman and her friend, Dax Shepherd.

[1] Hello, Frank Shepard.

[2] Oh, this is an expert's on expert.

[3] I'll add that, too.

[4] Oh, yeah.

[5] What did you say?

[6] I just didn't say experts on expert.

[7] Oh, okay.

[8] But it is.

[9] But now I have.

[10] Today we have Chris Bosch.

[11] Chris Bosch is an 11 -time All -Star, two -time NBA champion, and an Olympic gold medalist.

[12] He has a new book out now called Letters to a Young Athlete.

[13] And in that book, he reflects on all he's learned.

[14] learned from a long list of basketball legends, including LeBron, Kobe, Pat Riley, and Coach K. I loved talking to Chris.

[15] What an incredibly thoughtful, sweet person.

[16] Sweet person.

[17] And what a cool life.

[18] What a cool life.

[19] And I really hope to be his neighbor on Lake Austin someday.

[20] Oh, God.

[21] Yeah, put that on the vision board.

[22] I think it will.

[23] Also, if you have a house on Lake Austin that you want to sell me for like 20 cents on the dollar, please hit me in the DMs.

[24] Reach out.

[25] Please enjoy Chris Bosch.

[26] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

[27] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[28] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[29] He's an armchair expert.

[30] Hello.

[31] Yo, yo, yo.

[32] Hi.

[33] How are you guys doing?

[34] Good.

[35] How are you?

[36] Oh, I'm a little hot, Rob, little hot, which I rarely say.

[37] I love the sound of my own voice, Chris.

[38] My God, do I enjoy it?

[39] But it's too much for me to be.

[40] Yeah, you should, man. You should, man. I'd enjoy it, too.

[41] Where are you at?

[42] Austin.

[43] Oh, God bless you.

[44] Do you live there?

[45] Yeah, yeah, yeah, live here.

[46] Been here for a few years now.

[47] That's where I want to live.

[48] Really bad.

[49] Really?

[50] Where are you guys?

[51] We're in L .A. I'm originally from Detroit.

[52] Monica's from Atlanta.

[53] Yeah, we're right off of Lake Austin.

[54] It's really nice.

[55] We rented a house there two summers ago?

[56] Yeah.

[57] Oh, what a life down there.

[58] It's just...

[59] It's nice.

[60] I'm from Dallas originally, and so we were planning for Dallas the whole time.

[61] And so retirement came quicker.

[62] I got caught with my pants down a little bit because the plan was to always be in Texas, and I had a house, but then I had more kids.

[63] Yeah, yeah, you got a lot of kids.

[64] Yeah, I've got five children, so I had to take that into account.

[65] We were kind of scrambling, and one day my wife was like, yo, what about Austin?

[66] And I've had multiple friends.

[67] I visited UT when I was coming up, getting recruited, and I was embarrassed the fact that I didn't even think about it.

[68] You know what I mean?

[69] Oh, sure, sure, sure.

[70] I was like, damn, how did I not think about this?

[71] So as soon as we came down, we fell in love with it, the food.

[72] was phenomenal.

[73] You know, it was, I said, yeah.

[74] I describe it as liberal hillbillies, which is my kind of people.

[75] I still want to drive a pickup truck and shit.

[76] Yeah.

[77] But I also don't want outlaw gay marriage.

[78] That's what's up, man. The funny thing is, like, here in Texas, like, people recognize me, of course, in the NBA, but I've also had a lot of people back in 2002 when I was in high school, I won a state championship in Austin, you know, so I have very close ties to Austin.

[79] So it's always been that special place for me. So I've ran into plenty of people.

[80] I just ran into a guy the other day, as a matter of fact.

[81] I went to an art exhibit with my kids, and the security guard was like, yeah, I watched you play in high school.

[82] Oh, that's so cool.

[83] Yeah, so I get more of that here in Texas than anywhere else.

[84] So it's not more than the NBA, but it's like 7030, 80, 20, somewhere.

[85] I love that.

[86] That's crazy.

[87] Two state champs.

[88] Yeah, Monica's two -time decorated state champ, cheerleading.

[89] So we're the same.

[90] You guys are virtually the same.

[91] You know how important it is, you know.

[92] It is.

[93] How you going?

[94] State champ.

[95] Well, what's great is that, yeah, your high school team went 40 and O and you guys won the states.

[96] And then you were labeled, and this is a particular interest to us because you were labeled Mr. Basketball.

[97] Texas is Mr. Basketball, which we interviewed Matthew.

[98] McConaughey, and he was named Mr. Little Mr. Texas.

[99] You, I listened to that podcast.

[100] I probably laugh nonstop for days.

[101] Little Mr. Texas.

[102] Little Mr. Texas.

[103] And he wasn't even the winner.

[104] What his mom told him.

[105] That story was classic, man. But yeah, it was one of those cool high school things.

[106] I was enamored with it, I have to say, but to actually get that award and all that stuff, Yeah, but in Texas, they love calling people Mr. Something.

[107] Like, they love calling little kids Mr. You're going to be a mister, you know.

[108] That's cool to be a mister.

[109] That's the superlative they give everyone.

[110] You're Mr. Basketball.

[111] Please welcome.

[112] Mr. Dancer, Texas's best dancer.

[113] So Dallas, what did your folks do in Dallas?

[114] My father, he pretty much, during my adolescent, he started going, he went back to school.

[115] He eventually became a plumbing draftman, plumbing engineer, designing like blue for homes, the big buildings and stuff like that that are being built.

[116] Even today in Dallas, that's mainly what he did.

[117] My mother moved around, was into computers a lot.

[118] And yeah, our grandma lived right next door.

[119] That was the life growing up.

[120] She was pretty much had been retired.

[121] And I don't even know she was just a grandma.

[122] You know, she had a house.

[123] She was a widow.

[124] And she was very active in our lives.

[125] That was pretty much like the after school place when we couldn't get in the house right away.

[126] Grandma's the matriarch of the family.

[127] She's kind of sets the tone for everyone.

[128] Oh, yeah.

[129] So growing up, our family was very, very together.

[130] So those Thanksgiving, Christmases were always over her house.

[131] It was always multiple times a year, including the summertime where that would be kind of the hub for the family.

[132] Usually those women come from a rough upbringing.

[133] So they're very strong -willed women.

[134] And usually they don't play around.

[135] You have to be very serious.

[136] My grandmother was like that.

[137] My grandma was from Kentucky, and she was Southern Baptist.

[138] If there was an ass weapon to be dealt out, my grandpa sat out on that, and she went and got the yardstick ruler out of the cupboard and gave you what for?

[139] Yeah, that's my other half of the family.

[140] I have family from Kentucky, too, in the holler.

[141] You don't have a grandma in the holler out there, so she was more of a person, like of authority.

[142] So even like my dad, this is how strict my dad was, my dad made us tuck in our shirts to go to school.

[143] Oh, wow.

[144] And so what we would do when the bus came up, we would untuck our shirt right before we get on the bus so we could look cool.

[145] Yeah.

[146] My grandma, she would be watching.

[147] And if she saw us untuck our shirt, I would hear her immediately say, top that job!

[148] It was hilarious.

[149] Even when I thought the bus is in front of my house.

[150] My dad can't see me, but she was just at that time ready.

[151] That's a thing, having to tuck in your shirt?

[152] Oh, sure, sure.

[153] If you want to, like, show respect to the whole process of going to school, you take the series, you look good.

[154] Oh, my goodness.

[155] You show up like you're going to work.

[156] Yeah, for a young man, it was, yeah, I know.

[157] I felt the same way.

[158] It's like, yo, this outfit, I'm trying to wear my thing that does not work if I tuck you in my shirt.

[159] It doesn't make any sense.

[160] Now, I think so often we come to know basketball players at their peak when they are in the NBA and things have worked out.

[161] And the life is very appealing.

[162] We know everyone likes this person.

[163] Women love this person.

[164] But I have to imagine it's not that way till it's that way.

[165] If you're, like, you were 6 -Eleven in high school.

[166] So, yeah.

[167] I got to imagine, like, the whole time, you must feel so other often growing up being, I'm sure you had to be lame at the shit like I was.

[168] And just, it's not a great look until it's a great look.

[169] That's kind of where basketball came in.

[170] No matter how much I didn't fit in, I knew that it was a hope for a better tomorrow.

[171] You know what I'm saying?

[172] So, yeah.

[173] It's like, you can call me tall and lanky, and that's cool.

[174] It's funny you use the word lanky.

[175] That's how I know you were tall and lanky, because they use lanky.

[176] That's kind of like you have to learn to accept that word, right?

[177] It's not what a dude's aiming to be lanky.

[178] You know what I mean?

[179] It's like, oh, you lanky.

[180] I don't want to be lanky.

[181] No, no. I'm working out.

[182] Yeah, yeah.

[183] I'm strong.

[184] But I was growing so fast and kind of just getting to a point of accepting that and seeing the model for what I want to be.

[185] Later, I was obsessed with basketball.

[186] I had posters of KG and Kobe and Michael Jordan and all the greats on my wall.

[187] And so even when I didn't fit in, I felt I was going somewhere else with it.

[188] Of course I don't fit in because I'm going over here.

[189] That was my attitude.

[190] Let's talk KG for one second, but I want to set it up in that.

[191] So he was my favorite as well.

[192] And I think it's because, so I still have my physicals from eighth grade basketball and ninth grade basketball.

[193] So eighth grade basketball, I was 511 and 159.

[194] ninth grade basketball I was 6 -3 and 1 -49 I had fucking lost 10 pounds and gained 4 inches so I was just a rake I mean it was disastrous and I think I will always identify with that guy no matter how big I get and so Kevin Garnett to me the reason he captivated me in so many ways he's just the most elegant basketball player ever but he was lanky as a motherfucker Yeah.

[195] And he wore the whole thing with so much swagger.

[196] Even I remember watching the playoffs, they would do these behind the scenes like, oh, what are you doing on the days up?

[197] Well, he was always getting manicures and he was proud to be getting manicures.

[198] And I was like, I love this dude.

[199] This dude is so him and it's so attractive.

[200] Yeah.

[201] What drew you to Kevin?

[202] Well, it was on a level of basketball first.

[203] The personality, of course, came second.

[204] But when I saw the highlights, the only way you could see highlights back in the day.

[205] You remember Inside Stuff?

[206] Yeah, yeah.

[207] So, like, you had to watch Inside Stuff on Saturday mornings.

[208] That was the only way I could see NBA unless you want to watch the Mavericks on, like, Channel 27.

[209] And that wasn't...

[210] For you.

[211] Yeah, it wasn't...

[212] Mavericks weren't doing too well.

[213] It was never the basketball you want to see as a child.

[214] So, like, I got to a point where, okay, I got to wake up every Saturday morning to see Inside Stuff.

[215] And I saw they would show his highlights and do that.

[216] these profiles.

[217] And he was long, lanky, blocking shots.

[218] So it was one highlight in particular.

[219] He blocked the shot, got the rebound, took a couple dribbles, kicked it up to a guard.

[220] They gave it back and he dunked it and yelled at the crowd.

[221] And as a kid, it's like you're seeing the future.

[222] Yeah.

[223] You know, it's just like everything happens and nobody can tell you anything else.

[224] That's what I want to be.

[225] I want to do that.

[226] And that was like that moment for me. There was kind of like a paradigm, which was at that time with Kevin Garnett, you had Shaquille and Neal.

[227] So teams generally wanted this enormous center who couldn't really handle the ball, but just big, powerful, box guys out, control everyone physically.

[228] And this dude, Kevin Garnett comes along.

[229] Is he seven feet or close to it?

[230] Yeah, pretty much.

[231] I mean, after 6 '10, it doesn't matter.

[232] Yeah.

[233] I agree.

[234] So he's a big man, but he's running around like a guard.

[235] He can dribble like a motherfucker.

[236] He's not, like, powering guys out.

[237] He's slithering his way to the basket.

[238] Like, he kind of broke the paradigm of what that role was supposed to be or is in the era where it's starting to happen.

[239] And so to watch someone with that athleticism and grace and ability to move at that height, it was pretty miraculous.

[240] It was really fun to see.

[241] No, yeah.

[242] It was very taboo for a person of my height to dribble.

[243] To put the ball on the floor, old school coaches would lose their mind.

[244] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[245] So for me, my deline.

[246] was everybody telling you you're lanky you need to beef up all the time yeah you end up trying to be something that you're not because every kid wanted to be jordan right and then we get Kobe but i passed six six man this is crazy i'm still growing okay i have to identify with something else and and that's kind of when i was looking for that yeah man isn't that's the story of every job weirdly enough which you're describing which is like you get into something, you aspire to something, you kind of try to find somebody who you think kind of you could do what they do.

[247] And then at some point in your life, you go, well, hopefully, if you're successful, you go like, oh, no, I'm going to be exactly me and pray that I'm the dude someone looks up to later.

[248] But I got to imagine it's really hard when you're young and you have fear and anxiety about the future.

[249] There had to be moments where you're like, fuck, why can't I get up to 270?

[250] You know what's funny?

[251] I was.

[252] I was looking at a couple of old games.

[253] I have a bunch of old tape and I look at my old games every now and then.

[254] And people make you feel that way, right?

[255] They're always putting pressure on you, like, in my case, they were putting pressure on me to be big.

[256] And I look back and I was like, my size wasn't bad.

[257] Sure.

[258] Yeah, I looked like a 22 -year -old kid.

[259] Yeah, sure.

[260] I've got good size, man. I mean, I felt so small.

[261] It's kind of a frustrating dilemma.

[262] It is.

[263] You need a little to let you know you're on the right route, but to get a little bit of success, you're tempted to try a well -worn path to get that.

[264] Yeah.

[265] And even in that success, you'll still be like, oh, man, like in my success, it's like, okay, man, I made the All -Star game fast.

[266] I was 21 years old.

[267] And then you get there and it's like, wow, we had that first year, they had patches for the number of All -Star games you have.

[268] So you mentioned Shaquille O 'Neal.

[269] He's got like 15.

[270] Just an arm full of patches.

[271] I've got one.

[272] I'm like, oh, you think you're the shit.

[273] And then it's like, ah, look at all these guys.

[274] You see the decorated veterans.

[275] So it was always something else to aspire to.

[276] So that's what drove me all the time.

[277] It was always something else.

[278] You're also a part of this wave where like you're also shooting three pointers like crazy, which that wasn't a thing for someone your size.

[279] Yeah.

[280] That came later.

[281] It started happening.

[282] in the mid -90s and late 90s.

[283] And even then, it was like, yeah.

[284] You were nervous.

[285] Yeah, you know, and even for me, I didn't really start challenging myself to expand my game all the way like that until I got like my second or third year in Miami almost eight years ago.

[286] There were guys like Cliff Robinson and Tony Koo Coach and Dirk Novitsky.

[287] I was going to say Dirk and The Mavericks.

[288] He was fascinating to watch.

[289] All right, being tall, shooting those shots.

[290] And so even then it was still like, no, no, get your big ass down low.

[291] That's always the thing.

[292] Like, what are you doing?

[293] You know, get hell by the basket.

[294] Yeah, yeah.

[295] I'm glad you made it, but get back in the paint.

[296] What are you doing out there?

[297] Yeah, so it wasn't all the way accepted like that even then.

[298] But then slowly but surely as the game progressed, I was like, man, I'm going to just start shooting more threes.

[299] And then I wanted to shoot more.

[300] It was just unfortunate in my career came to an end.

[301] Yeah.

[302] Okay, so really quick.

[303] So not only were you elegantly lanky and tall and couldn't hide, also you were super interested in engineering and robotics.

[304] So that's another great pathway to be the coolest dude in school.

[305] So look, here's the thing, right?

[306] We had practice.

[307] I was playing varsity, and we had practice every day, and we didn't start until 515, 5 .30.

[308] School ended at 3 .45.

[309] So as an adolescent teenager, that's the worst time.

[310] We're in the middle of the hood.

[311] All you got to do is go across the street and find trouble.

[312] Yeah, yeah.

[313] So like I told you, my grandma stayed right next door, so it's not going to roll.

[314] So I got to make sure I'm on my peas and cues.

[315] And so I was always fascinated with making money, having a job for myself, providing for myself.

[316] So I asked one of my friends, like, how can I make money?

[317] They were telling me they're doing this creating album artwork.

[318] for local artists in the community.

[319] So I said, okay, man, damn, that's cool.

[320] Where do you learn this thing?

[321] Oh, you gotta do Photoshop.

[322] Oh, it's this thing called WizKids.

[323] And that was like my junior year.

[324] Then my senior year, my Cactylist teacher pretty much told me she'd give me an A if I joined the Robotics Club.

[325] Oh, wow.

[326] Because she found out, like I told you, my dad was doing drawings for plumbing and stuff like that.

[327] Yeah.

[328] So just by virtue of being around him and knowing that stuff, I knew AutoCAD.

[329] Yeah, yeah.

[330] And I don't know how they got me there after school.

[331] Somebody baited me after school to get there because I didn't have anything to do.

[332] And I said, man, yeah, oh, yeah, I was telling like wanting the kids how to use AutoCat.

[333] And I remember everybody stopped and looked at me like, what?

[334] Yeah.

[335] You know AutoCat.

[336] Yeah, I know AutoCat.

[337] Okay, we need this.

[338] You got to be on our team.

[339] Oh, wow.

[340] And the only way I could do that was because it was right before basketball season.

[341] So I had the time.

[342] That's so cool.

[343] Yeah, he was in the National Honor Society.

[344] He's Vina.

[345] He's fucking Mr. Basketball, but he's also in his auto cat, which is crazy.

[346] Seriously.

[347] Yeah, that you weren't so one track.

[348] That's hard to do.

[349] The funny part about, like, you're saying, that's so cool because I didn't tell my friends.

[350] So I didn't tell anybody where I was from 345 to basketball practice, because I knew they rag me. That'd be a long bus ride to the game And I just have to take it all and laugh with him But yeah, man I was just always open to doing stuff I'm going to take a big swing here now Did you love Black Belt Jones Black Belt Jones Okay that's a big no I didn't know what that is so you took karate Yeah I took karate You guys are digging in there Well listen I loved karate shit when I was growing up And it was all Bruce Lee Chuck Norris you know whatever yeah and then this dude black belt jones he was in enter the dragon he had a scene on the boat he's awesome and then he had his own movies black belt jones and my brother and i know exactly what you're talking about fucking obsessed with them and he was the only black karate dude and he was again lanky as a motherfucker i know exactly who you talk with the fro yes yeah so i didn't see the brusley movies i was more so in the era of the van dam movies yeah blood sport Bloodsport.

[351] That was me all day.

[352] Skinnamax up late, watching.

[353] We want the action.

[354] We want jet skis.

[355] Jumping on the boat, you know.

[356] Sequences that don't make any sense.

[357] That's what you want, dude.

[358] Which martial artists all of a sudden on jet skis.

[359] Oh, my God, you're so right.

[360] They just made those movies and like, fuck, what is popular right now?

[361] Okay, well, people love jet skis.

[362] Taco Bell double crunched Tacos like what can we In explosions So when you did karate was it Because you like those movies Because my mom put me in ballet I've told the story for it But she put me in ballet for a year Because someone told her Hey he's gonna be really tall It's a great way to get good With moving your body when you're that big So that was just curious What the interest in karate was You know what I couldn't even tell you We were interested in it later on But at this point in stage It kind of goes in this same boat with gymnastics.

[363] We did these at the local community college.

[364] Yeah.

[365] Oh, okay.

[366] So it was like the courses that they were providing.

[367] Like, that was one thing about my parents.

[368] Any free camp or any sort of thing in the community, we were there.

[369] Uh -huh.

[370] And you had a little brother?

[371] Yeah, a little brother.

[372] So we were both in karate.

[373] Uh -huh.

[374] We'd both be in gymnastics.

[375] We'd be at the library.

[376] Like, we would be at the library.

[377] Just like summer book clubs.

[378] Like, God, we're here for like two hours.

[379] Two hours to a kid is, oh.

[380] Yeah, but like, you know, just being around these things and having to figure out how to entertain ourselves and how to really make do with what we have, which were books and videotapes and stuff like that.

[381] That's what we had to do.

[382] Clearly, you had a very strict upbringing.

[383] Your dad was super focused.

[384] I'm making sure you didn't get caught.

[385] in the wrong track, that's obvious.

[386] Is it hard being a parent now of five kids, knowing what resulted in you, but knowing you don't want to do that shit?

[387] That would be hard for me. Or maybe, do you make your kids tuck their shirts in and stuff?

[388] No, no, no. To be honest, and even my dad joked about this one time.

[389] When it was time to make the decisions to make that were mine, he did not agree with me. Uh -huh.

[390] So when it came to choosing a college, to choosing a high school to go to, to choosing a college, to choosing to go to the NBA, he did not agree with those things.

[391] Yeah, because Chris just went for one year to Georgia Tech, ding, ding, ding.

[392] Oh, wow.

[393] Yeah, I got drafted when I was 19.

[394] So everything happened very fast.

[395] I was thinking about that, like, wow, it didn't seem like that.

[396] It seemed normal to me because that's what I wanted.

[397] But I went from graduating high school to less than a year and a half later, walking across the stage, getting drafted into the NBA.

[398] Wow.

[399] That's mind -blowing.

[400] It's crazy.

[401] Even for me, it's crazy, just thinking about that.

[402] I couldn't imagine my son or my daughter doing that and making those decisions.

[403] So when it came down to it, every decision that I may follow in my heart, he necessarily did not agree with.

[404] I remember that for my children, and I try to make sure that, one, understand that they're not in the same environment as I was, you know, growing up.

[405] I don't have to overdo it.

[406] I see it as me learning with them, because I'm in this situation, and I've never been here before either.

[407] This is something that our family is a new territory.

[408] Nobody's touched this territory ever.

[409] We're pioneers, so let me just kind of be a student.

[410] Of course, they're looking to me to lead them, but let me learn from them as well to make sure I'm not just being traffic cop out here and they tune me out.

[411] You have to have the same fear and paranoia I have, which is like, I grew up broke, and now my kids are rich.

[412] It's so weird.

[413] I'm like, how the fuck do I keep them from being assholes?

[414] How do I make sure they're hungry for something?

[415] It, like, it stresses me out to no end.

[416] Sometimes that's the worst thing that people don't think about.

[417] Like, there's less excuses.

[418] Not that I'm looking for any handouts or anything.

[419] It is what it is.

[420] We all have our problems, right?

[421] Yeah.

[422] But money doesn't cure everything.

[423] No. You're still going to have your challenges that you've got to overcome.

[424] Rich kids got to brush their teeth every night before bed, too.

[425] You got to brush your teeth.

[426] You got to wash your ass.

[427] I told my kids, you got to wash your eyes.

[428] Ass daily.

[429] Rule number one, son.

[430] Wash your ass daily, son.

[431] We'll start there.

[432] That should have been the title of your book.

[433] Word, if you want to be great.

[434] Wash your ass, son.

[435] Okay, so yeah, so a year, man, a year to transition from having to be in the library, so you were somewhere, to getting drafted.

[436] And also, crazy year to get drafted.

[437] Like, Monica, he was fourth behind Carmelow Anthony, Dwayne Wade, and LeBron James.

[438] Wow.

[439] Like, what a fucking draft that year, huh?

[440] That's pretty wild.

[441] So the funny thing about that is we all knew each other.

[442] We had been knowing each other.

[443] I didn't meet Dwayne until we both were drafted, but we were both kids, and then we had the same agent.

[444] Oh, no kid.

[445] So, you know, it's like the first time I met him was before the draft, and it's like, you guys have agents, you guys are friends now.

[446] And it's just like you're just in a room with the dude you just saw in the final four on TV.

[447] You know what I mean?

[448] And then so with LeBron and Carmelo, we had been knowing each other since we were 17, 16 years old.

[449] Because you would go to like to these McDonald's events and shit?

[450] Yeah, we would go to what was called the ABCD camp back in the day.

[451] That was my first time.

[452] It was this really good player.

[453] And I'm like, yo, who's this guy?

[454] I thought I was pretty good.

[455] Well, now is he good.

[456] He's built like a fucking action hero.

[457] Like, again, the reason I love Kevin Garnett is like, I cannot relate to LeBron James, who at 19 was like $2 .50 of just solid beef.

[458] You should have seen him when he was 16.

[459] From 16 to 23, he kept transforming into something that we were not.

[460] You know what I mean?

[461] It's just like, yo, I remember I saw him that year.

[462] And then I went to college.

[463] and then I saw him playing on ESPN, and it's like, yo, I mean, I've been in the wait room, but God, that's a different program.

[464] He went to college.

[465] He went to Gold's gym and never left.

[466] It'd be so interesting for me as someone who pursued comedy, if there was some outside indicator of like, oh, well, genetically, this comedian has a huge advantage on me. Wouldn't that be weird to enter a...

[467] A profession where it's like, well, man, okay, that lane is taken.

[468] That dude is so fucking powerful, and that's not my lane.

[469] It's just a very interesting career to have where, like, there are competitors of yours that have outward signs of what their gift is.

[470] Yeah, I kind of joke around all the time.

[471] It's easy for me to have these thoughts because I'm an outsider now.

[472] I'm not involved with the day -to -day, so I have a different perspective on those things.

[473] And I always kind of joke around.

[474] Anytime they have like the NFL combine, no disrespect, but it's like, oh, yes, the meat market.

[475] Yeah, yeah.

[476] Because you've got 300 linemen with their shirt off and their tights, getting on the scales and getting off, running these drills in athletics.

[477] You're going to be measured.

[478] You're going to have, I mean, even in the NBA, they do psychology test on you.

[479] That was like one of the first things I did.

[480] It keeps getting, I want to say extreme because that's incorrect.

[481] But it's more intense.

[482] Well, look, any business owner who would invest in a commercial property and they're going to invest $75 million, they're going to do a soil sample and they're going to get some ecological report.

[483] Nobody is betting $65 million on anything without trying their hardest to figure out if it's a good investment.

[484] And that's a crazy thing to think about, right?

[485] I remember, like, my first meeting in the NBA doing these tests, they said, okay, put these blocks together.

[486] I'm like, what?

[487] You mean thrown through a fucking...

[488] Yes.

[489] And then having conversations, even with my college coaches, they would tell me they talk to my teachers.

[490] They knew my schedule.

[491] They knew my grades.

[492] They knew my averages.

[493] They knew everything about me. Yeah.

[494] What does that feel like?

[495] Do you feel like you're being spied on?

[496] A bit, but hindsight is always 2020, right?

[497] It just is what it is.

[498] I understand it.

[499] But at the time, it's, like I say, it's all that I wanted.

[500] Well, but Chris, you might.

[501] not understand like i might not understand like no no my jobs to go out and block shots and grab rebounds and score but i don't know that i've been i've signed up to be evaluated nonstop in this other way but all this other stuff it might be news to me that they feel entitled to evaluate me in these ones no for sure i mean that's just something that's going to happen so if someone doesn't agree with that you don't have to play but if you are a very good player who has a chance at a future at any level below the league you can bet your bottom dollar is some people that know about you they know your schedule and they know like you know they talk to people and they say they want to see what type of person you are and that doesn't necessarily mean it can hinder you because people can still have successes and then have problem you know it can go either way But still, like, if this is what you want to do, that's why, like, even in my book, I talk about those things.

[502] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[503] We've all been there.

[504] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[505] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing.

[506] But for an unlucky few, these unethical.

[507] unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[508] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[509] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[510] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[511] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[512] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[513] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon Music.

[514] What's up, guys?

[515] This is your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[516] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[517] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[518] And I don't mean just friends.

[519] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[520] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[521] this is Kikiie Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[522] Well, right, in letters to a young athlete, I imagine you're warning people it's going to be about a lot more than what happens on the basketball court.

[523] You cannot be naive to that.

[524] Yeah, no, absolutely.

[525] One of the things that I love about just how kind of things played out with my career is small things.

[526] So like when I interact with people, if they haven't seen me for a while and I'm back in the NBA family or I see a fan, they'll smile.

[527] It can get intense sometimes.

[528] but it's still very nice because I'm like, wow, they don't have to smile.

[529] What if I was done and they weren't smiling?

[530] I'm sure that has to be a lot of guys' experience, right?

[531] Yeah.

[532] If you didn't think about those things, but like, wow, how cool is that that people smile when they see me?

[533] Or if we've known each other and you smile when you see me, that's like invaluable.

[534] You know, Owen Wilson, another Dallas boy.

[535] I read an interview with him one time, and the interviewer said, you get sick of people recognizing you.

[536] and he's like he's like you know sometimes it can get a lot but i just i think like wow i just by seeing me people smile it's kind of like a superpower and i was like what a great way to look at it like that's that's exactly what you're saying like to have the effect on people that makes them immediately smile it there's worse things yeah it could be the other way around and i'm like well how would that feel if it's too much for me like ah come on okay what if they weren't smiling what if they we're smiling and they see you and just there's Chris.

[537] Or worse, like try to avoid contact.

[538] Like, oh, I don't want this dude to talk to me. Yeah, you can see him cross the street a block away.

[539] Like, yo, I saw you.

[540] I'm 610.

[541] I can see you, bro.

[542] So I imagine the opinions must vary greatly, as they do in show business.

[543] So I just happen to be the type of person that when a studio gave me $25 million to make a movie, I respect that that's a huge bet on me. Like, I respect that someone has entrusted me with millions of dollars, and I have colleagues that it's always like us against them, like, oh, they're trying to make me do this and they're trying to make me do that.

[544] And if I could just do my own thing, and I'm like, yeah, but you're not acknowledging someone's got to give you the $25 million.

[545] Like, I've always been kind of at peace with that.

[546] But there's other people that feel really kind of confined by that.

[547] And it sounds a little bit like you accept that it is a business on.

[548] some level.

[549] Yeah.

[550] Oh, hell yeah, man. You always have to find that balance of business and personal life, right?

[551] Yeah.

[552] But once you sign your name on the dotted line, I was one of the things I had to learn about with contracts, just like people will sign a contract and be like, well, you're not letting me be who I am.

[553] Like, yeah, because you signed a contract.

[554] So it is what it is.

[555] Yeah.

[556] You are an employee.

[557] I mean, you know, for us, there were a lot of obligations for if you want to be a professional athlete, yeah, people are going to be in your business.

[558] And not only from the organizational standpoint, but from being a public figure, you're a public figure now and people are naturally curious about you.

[559] There's certain obligations that you have to adhere to and you sign your name on the dotted line.

[560] You have to deal with it.

[561] I would imagine it's more complex, though, for black players than white players, because there is this horrendous history of us either, A, only acknowledging black folks when they're phenomenal at something.

[562] You're Sammy Davis or you're fucking Chris Rock or you're Jay -Z or you're an athlete.

[563] And then owning the athletes.

[564] And you've had this, like the asshole who own the clippers who did, he was a slave owner mentality.

[565] He'd bring people in the locker room and touch people.

[566] And so it's like, it is way more complex, I think.

[567] Yeah.

[568] Yeah, no, it's complex.

[569] I mean, life is complex, right?

[570] And then you have a young man or woman in an opportunity with a bunch of money who they think and everyone in their exterior thinks that can never end.

[571] Yes, yes.

[572] So, like, one of the things that I find fascinating just kind of in my journey is how I always hear people say, like, how could he spend $100 million?

[573] I'm like, okay, first off, it's not $100.

[574] even if you do your taxes right, it's around 50.

[575] Yep, yeah.

[576] Okay, you don't get it all at once.

[577] And what in the world makes people think like a million dollars comes with a brochure on how to spend it properly, especially if you're a black dude.

[578] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[579] Who's your mentor?

[580] What uncle pulls you aside that's rich and says, put some away here, do this tax thing.

[581] This has never happened in my family generation before.

[582] So it's a nuclear bomb going off.

[583] And granted, everyone is happy, but you're just in a world that you do not understand and you can't even fathom.

[584] You're learning on the fly.

[585] And then even then, as a retired athlete, you have to unpack things and see what happened and why they happened.

[586] Yeah.

[587] Well, there's that grade 30 for 30 broke.

[588] I don't know if you saw it.

[589] But they point out the greatest thing, which is if you chart most adults earning potential, It's at its lowest at 19, and it's at its highest at 50.

[590] That's 31 years of learning how to manage money before they give you the most amount you're ever going to learn.

[591] You've got to fuck up a bunch in your 20s.

[592] You've got to try to buy a car you can't afford.

[593] Like, all that shit's got to happen.

[594] And then they go, okay, you figured it out.

[595] Here's the most amount of money you're ever going to make.

[596] And it's completely flipped for athletes.

[597] It's crazy.

[598] And that's why I'm like, how do they spend $250 million?

[599] Look, I'll spend $200, I'll spend $300 tomorrow.

[600] I'm talking of real life.

[601] Come on with me. I'm telling you, this evening.

[602] It'll be the easiest thing you've ever done in your life.

[603] Trust me. The hard part's keeping it.

[604] Yeah.

[605] You're too young to have seen it, but there's this movie Brewster's Millions with Richard Pryor.

[606] I remember that one.

[607] Oh, okay, yeah.

[608] And the challenge was like, he had to spend $100 million in a weekend or something.

[609] And it was like, going to be impossible.

[610] And I'm like, no. No. No. No. Yeah.

[611] When you got drafted to Toronto.

[612] in your fantasy of having the posters and stuff, where did you, in your perfect world, where were you going to play?

[613] In Dallas?

[614] No, actually.

[615] It was blank.

[616] I never had a favorite team.

[617] Oh, okay.

[618] I had a paradox growing up.

[619] Michael Jordan was pretty much the reason that I got hooked on basketball.

[620] Every summer I went to my grandma's house.

[621] My dad, he drive us in a truck, in an F -150 truck, single cab, me and my brother, from Dallas to Dayton, Ohio for the summer.

[622] Oh, wow.

[623] And so every year for three years in a row, the night that I got to my grandma's house, we always got there at night and the bulls were always playing.

[624] And I was like seven, eight, and nine during that time.

[625] So that's when it really stuck.

[626] And so that's how it started.

[627] And then it just really resonated with me. And I understood what I wanted to do because it's like the whole world disappeared.

[628] Well, you started two years late because the best years of basketball were 88 and 90 when the Pistons won.

[629] but we'll breeze right by that.

[630] So you were fine with going to Toronto, because I would be like, I don't know if I want to play in Canada.

[631] Mind you, I love Canada.

[632] I love Toronto.

[633] Toronto in particular has gotten incredible in the last 15 years.

[634] Like, as a kid, Detroit, we would go there.

[635] And it was fine, but there wasn't a ton of rhythm there.

[636] There wasn't a clear vibe, but it's gotten incredible.

[637] But anyways, yeah, I just don't know that I would have even imagined I might be in Canada playing.

[638] Yeah, so with that.

[639] said, Michael Jordan was one thing, and then the Mavericks weren't very good when I was growing up at all.

[640] So nobody was a Mavericks fan until Mark Cuban bought the team and started turning the organization around.

[641] So for me, before that, it's just like I was kind of like a lone wolf just trying to figure it out.

[642] And so then when the draft came up, it's funny.

[643] You're from Detroit.

[644] I got family in Detroit.

[645] So I was hoping I could be in Detroit.

[646] They had the second pick.

[647] So did they win in 2005?

[648] They of Ben Wallace?

[649] That was that era, right?

[650] Yeah, they won our rookie year 2004.

[651] Yeah, they won that year.

[652] They already had a good team, and I wanted to go.

[653] I have family.

[654] You think you want to go where your family's living.

[655] Yeah.

[656] At the time.

[657] Before you learn.

[658] Yeah, I thought that's what I wanted.

[659] And then Toronto was there, and it was becoming more of a reality that they would pick me. And I was nervous about it.

[660] I'm not going to lie.

[661] I've never been to Canada.

[662] I've been to Windsor with my family in Detroit.

[663] I've grabbed to Maple Leaf, I think.

[664] We went to a park.

[665] It was swell.

[666] It was swell afternoon.

[667] But, like, that was all I knew.

[668] It was just going to be a difference.

[669] But they had Vince Carter, of course, and a team that was making great playoff pushes before that year.

[670] So regardless, you just put me in the NBA.

[671] I'm ready to roll.

[672] That's how it was my attitude.

[673] Do you think it might have been a blessing in a weird way that you were maybe kind of separated?

[674] I just imagine it would be easiest for me to focus if I got sent to Canada to play.

[675] basketball?

[676] You know what?

[677] In my mind, I was going to be focused anywhere because I went to Georgia Tech.

[678] I was in Atlanta.

[679] Sure, we were broke, but it was still fun.

[680] It was just kind of funny.

[681] I mean, 19 is the drinking age in Canada as opposed to the U .S. So I mean, it was there.

[682] Everything was right there.

[683] I mean, I was just so focused on basketball wherever I was going to go.

[684] That was going to be it.

[685] But I definitely think Canada, I was shut in and then.

[686] I eventually got to being open to having more experiences, and I had never had white friends like that before.

[687] Well, and Canadian, they're extra white.

[688] You know what I mean?

[689] Polite as hell.

[690] Yeah, an Asian -Canadian friend and all these friends from, like, different parts of the world, and I start beginning to be open to culture and stuff like that.

[691] It couldn't have happened in any other city but Toronto.

[692] Yeah.

[693] We did a live show there a couple years back, and we were like, my goodness, this has to be the most multicultural city on planet Earth.

[694] Yeah.

[695] Like, it is crazy.

[696] It's just almost like completely even every single mix of person possible.

[697] For sure, for sure.

[698] I mean, I have friends that wear turbans.

[699] I have a friend being a dashiki.

[700] Uh -huh.

[701] We're going to our Greeks friend restaurant.

[702] It was just so cool.

[703] Okay, so I'm going to speed through Toronto.

[704] Chris left Toronto, Monica.

[705] He's the leading score in franchise history.

[706] He's the leading blocker in franchise history.

[707] He's the leading rebounder in franchise history.

[708] Wow.

[709] Most minutes played in franchise history.

[710] You fucking dominated.

[711] You are the Michael Jordan of the Toronto Raptors.

[712] I'm curious.

[713] You went in 2008 to the Olympics and won a gold medal.

[714] And I want to know what was Beijing?

[715] Because the thing that I'm curious about is like, it was so overwhelming that Olympics.

[716] I remember watching on TV and I was like, what is real and what is not real?

[717] Like, what is digital about this?

[718] It was so spectacular.

[719] Yo, you should have been there, man. As, like, somebody who went through that whole experience with the opening ceremony, they said, man, that was the best, worst day of my life.

[720] Why?

[721] For one, it's 95, I don't even know percentages of humidity, but it's high.

[722] Oh.

[723] All right.

[724] That's all, it's high.

[725] And so, like, the athletes, They put us in the gymnastics area.

[726] So you have every athlete participating in the opening ceremony in this one arena.

[727] And so they start calling us country by country in the Chinese alphabet to go down to the opening ceremony.

[728] We had got there at like six or seven o 'clock, and the opening ceremony starts at eight.

[729] They wanted to start 808 on 8 -2008.

[730] Oh, right, yeah.

[731] But it's 8 o 'clock and we're still in the other thing, the opening ceremonies way down there.

[732] We could see it.

[733] We sat there for like two or three hours.

[734] And then it was like a line of every country in the world.

[735] In the United States, I can't even tell you, it was like in the U's in the English alphabet.

[736] That's how far back we were.

[737] So like we're waiting.

[738] We're like having fun taking pictures, but eventually, you know, it gets tough, man. Then we walk out into the muggy, mugginess, and then when we finally get there, it was another two, three -hour program.

[739] Oh, wow.

[740] My feet were hurting so bad.

[741] People were getting injured.

[742] Oh, yeah, people really were.

[743] It was like people passing out.

[744] They just get somebody else to cheer.

[745] Oh, my God.

[746] Get him some water.

[747] You see him getting?

[748] It was crazy, man. It was crazy.

[749] It was a good time.

[750] And then I had a couple friends who went there, and they were like, okay, so, you know, the aerial shot of everything, which is mind blowing.

[751] If they were to pan out, like, another quarter mile, you'd be shocked with what surrounded the area.

[752] Like, it was like a pocket of this impossibly futuristic design, and then just real China started like a half mile beyond that.

[753] Yeah, that's how they did it.

[754] So they had the birds nest and then the cube.

[755] which was the aquatic center.

[756] Michael Phelps' house.

[757] Yeah.

[758] So when they knew they were getting the Olympics, it's like a certain section of the city.

[759] And I've been back to Beijing.

[760] So if you even pan out bigger now, it's more developed.

[761] Like the Olympics kind of jumpstarted.

[762] It was already going quite a bit.

[763] Yeah.

[764] It seemed like the Olympics really jump started more development out there.

[765] Yeah.

[766] And you guys have to be the biggest thing in the Olympics.

[767] I have to imagine.

[768] Everyone's identifiable.

[769] Everyone's, it's the only sport where people are famous.

[770] You guys are all so tall.

[771] Yeah, it's got to be unique for y 'all.

[772] Yeah, going to China, you feel it's like, okay, this is what McCartney felt like.

[773] Yes, yeah, totally.

[774] Okay, now, so then you go to Miami Heat, and you play with Dwayne Wade and LeBron, and you win two championships down there in 2012 and 2013.

[775] And things are good.

[776] Now, by the way, talk about a polar opposite to go from Toronto.

[777] to Miami.

[778] As far as just like the vibe.

[779] Yeah, I mean, it was great.

[780] I can tell you're an overachiever, right?

[781] So you're type A, you've got to be focused.

[782] But I got to imagine at this point, you're like, you know what?

[783] I did a good job in the NBA.

[784] I can loosen the reins a little bit.

[785] And we did.

[786] But there were still that part of me that was just so much a basketball player.

[787] That was, I was right around the time I was getting married.

[788] And it was so funny.

[789] Me and my wife, we were just sitting laying in bed watching TV or some movies and I'm rubbing our little white dog and I stopped and I just started laughing so hard and she was like, where are you laughing at?

[790] I said, well, could you imagine if you would have told me when I was 19 that I would be at the age I'm at now playing in Miami?

[791] Yeah, yeah.

[792] The picture that I'm painting is I'm laying in bed on a Friday night rubbing my little white dog with my wife, watching shows.

[793] And it was like 10 p .m., you know what I mean?

[794] And you're exhausted.

[795] You know what I mean?

[796] My younger self wouldn't even have believed you, but it was just kind of one of those funny things.

[797] I was just so focused, man. We were there to win a championship.

[798] Did you have guys that you were jealous of?

[799] I think of a couple stories.

[800] One being, there's this famous story about John Daly, the golfer.

[801] He loves telling the story.

[802] You don't hear Tiger tell him.

[803] But John Daly will tell this story.

[804] They finished some tournament, and they were going up to have a drink.

[805] And John Daly said to Tiger, why don't you come have a drink with us?

[806] And Tiger said, if I was naturally as good as you, I would go have a drink.

[807] And John Daly loves that story because basically Tiger said he was more physically talented, whatever.

[808] Did you have dudes that you like saw in the NBA are like, fuck, man, they're pretty great.

[809] And they seem to be cutting up nonstop.

[810] and it all just works for them.

[811] There are those guys.

[812] I won't name them.

[813] I mean, sometimes some people make it seem easy.

[814] Not that they were cutting up, but that's how I saw my peers.

[815] So when we got into the league, now here's the scenario, right?

[816] Me and LeBron and Carmelo and Duane were all in the same pocket.

[817] We know each other.

[818] Okay, I go to Toronto, Denver, Cleveland, Miami.

[819] Miami makes the playoffs.

[820] Cleveland does not.

[821] Denver makes the playoffs.

[822] playoffs.

[823] Toronto does not.

[824] But LeBron is still LeBron.

[825] Yeah.

[826] Yeah.

[827] Then the next year, LeBron and Duane are all -stars in their second year.

[828] They're competing in the playoffs now.

[829] Mello's competing in the playoffs.

[830] It just seemed like they continue to ascend while I was kind of in Canada trying to figure it out.

[831] Yeah.

[832] Just going through the things that I need to go through, going through my story.

[833] And so, like, I always aspired to be those guys.

[834] They pushed me all the time.

[835] Those dudes kept me up at night.

[836] And then Duane wins a championship in my hometown.

[837] You know, in 2006.

[838] So it's like, wait a minute.

[839] We were just in Dave and Busters three years ago.

[840] Nobody knew our names.

[841] Now, this guy's like on the Wheaties box with Shaq.

[842] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[843] So, like, I guess looking at those other guys, they kept pushing me to continue to be great, man, to be honest.

[844] It's just crazy how the coincidence of the circumstance can then be this source of drive in your life, which is just completely random.

[845] Yeah.

[846] And one of the random things in it was that usually you never get guys drafted.

[847] You don't get it to where those young guys pan out to where it's like, oh, they're a franchise players.

[848] They're cornerstones of this franchise.

[849] They're the future of this franchise.

[850] Very seldomly works out like that.

[851] Yeah, almost never.

[852] And so it was just crazy.

[853] It's the thing I think about all the time.

[854] Okay, so now, if people don't know this about your story, in 2015, you're on the All -Star break, and you discover that you have a blood clot in your lung.

[855] Right.

[856] And I'm wondering, as a athlete, you must always in the back of your mind have the fear of an injury that's going to take you out.

[857] And in your position, you know, it's going to be a knee or an ankle, or, you know, it's kind of predictable.

[858] Something pretty obvious.

[859] You're not ever probably thinking, fuck, I might have a pulmonary embolism.

[860] I got to keep my eye on that.

[861] No, you don't even know what it is.

[862] Yeah.

[863] And can you even, like, if you know your knees are bad, you're going to do certain strength training, you're going to ice them.

[864] You know, there's preventative stuff you'll do to make sure they don't give out.

[865] What could you have done with the condition you had?

[866] Nothing.

[867] That's kind of why I had to accept the course that my career took.

[868] It happened in two instances.

[869] This first one was really bad when I had the pulmonary embolism.

[870] I was hospitalized for weeks.

[871] I had to have surgery, all kind of stuff.

[872] I had tubes in my chest for like a week.

[873] It was really, really bad, really painful.

[874] But you don't think about what it is.

[875] You don't think about what it could be.

[876] At first, it just kind of was light.

[877] And I always felt it in my ribs.

[878] But it turned out, it's like, yeah, that thing you were feeling that's a collapsed lung.

[879] Oh, my God.

[880] And you were playing.

[881] with that?

[882] Yeah, I was playing with a, it was partially collapsed.

[883] And, you know, the things that I was feeling was pretty much the clot moving through my arteries.

[884] So it would really hurt.

[885] And it got to the point where it hurts so bad, I went to the hospital.

[886] So usually that's kind of when it's over.

[887] Yeah.

[888] Yeah.

[889] People drop dead from a lot less.

[890] So, and that was like the scary thing.

[891] And am I wrong that if that, if that had made its way up to your heart, you're dead.

[892] If it makes it to your brain, you have a stroke.

[893] If it explodes, right?

[894] There's many terrible outcomes.

[895] Yeah, it's very terrible.

[896] You're not in a place you want to be, and you don't even know it.

[897] I went from doctor to doctor fairly quickly.

[898] I got a chest x -ray.

[899] They're like, yeah, let's go to the emergency room.

[900] I go to the emergency room.

[901] They're like, yeah, hey, let me hit you with that.

[902] Boop.

[903] Let's put this in for you.

[904] The next 24 hours are very crucial.

[905] And I'm like, okay.

[906] And it's like, am I going, you know, I'm just thinking about the season because you're so conditioned to get to the next thing.

[907] But then that kind of snapped me right back into it.

[908] I'm like looking at SportsCenter.

[909] Yeah, I got SportsCenter on in the emergency room.

[910] And we just trade it.

[911] We're going to have a better team this season.

[912] And I'm just like looking at this and they're telling me all this other information as things are going on.

[913] But the pain was so bad.

[914] I just wanted to be pain free.

[915] Okay.

[916] So when you got the one in your leg, than a year later, was that a surprise or did you know that might be coming?

[917] No, it was a surprise.

[918] I was excited.

[919] We're going back to Toronto.

[920] It's All -Star Weekend.

[921] And I'm in a three -point competition.

[922] I'm like, you know, I'm hyped.

[923] I want to say it was Thursday night.

[924] I took my son back to the practice facility.

[925] He went to go shoot with me. We were just goofing around, shooting around.

[926] The next morning I got out of bed and I'm like, man, my calf is sore.

[927] Yeah.

[928] Let me do the right thing and get checked out.

[929] And so when we landed in Toronto, I went to the hospital to get checked out, and that's when, you know.

[930] Wow.

[931] This is why the body's so tricky, though, right?

[932] Because you, in the past, one of the injuries you had sometimes was calf, right?

[933] Yeah, sure.

[934] Calf, strain, bruised, contusion.

[935] Yeah, plenty of times.

[936] I've had much worse calf injuries.

[937] Yeah, for sure.

[938] Yeah, so trying to delineate between what is this thing and what is just, you know, I pulled something in my calf.

[939] It's got to be tricky.

[940] I'm glad you were vigilant about it.

[941] Well, yeah, I mean, looking back on it, I had a friend asked me, well, what if you wouldn't have, do you ever have regret of saying anything about it?

[942] Because essentially, like I did another CT scanning and it wasn't there days later, just how crazy the shit is, right?

[943] Yeah.

[944] So like, I said, well, I don't really think about that too much because usually it's the one you don't see coming that gets you, right?

[945] And so I don't really allow myself to think of those what -ifs because, yeah, okay, what if I didn't say anything, I keep playing.

[946] What if that little grain of sand makes this way up?

[947] People are always curious.

[948] I tell them like, yeah, man, I made the right call.

[949] Yeah, so for the next couple years, you're kind of like, you're waiting to see if you can play.

[950] Obviously, the team has fears of you playing.

[951] The NBA has fears of you playing.

[952] And then ultimately you accept it and you retire.

[953] I wonder what your biggest fear of having to retire was.

[954] Was it not being able to actually play?

[955] because you love playing so much?

[956] Was it the camaraderie and the community that you had enjoyed for the last 15 years or whatever?

[957] Was it money?

[958] What was the main thing?

[959] You were like, I don't know if I can live without X. My fear was not playing basketball.

[960] It's all I had ever done.

[961] Your number one identifier.

[962] Yeah.

[963] It's probably like, I'm a basketball player.

[964] I'm a father.

[965] I was so lucky.

[966] Yeah, I was so lucky to have children and have robotics club back in high school and have these things that I did.

[967] But at the end of the day, the number one thing, I wanted to be elite and I was elite.

[968] And I was continuing to prove that I was elite.

[969] So you're pulling the plug on me midway through the game.

[970] Yeah.

[971] That's how I felt.

[972] And so I had to get over it.

[973] One thing that I learned was that things can't happen to you.

[974] And they're not fair.

[975] And it's really messed up.

[976] But you have to deal with it.

[977] You have to react correctly.

[978] You're going to go through what you have to go through.

[979] There's nothing wrong with that.

[980] But after a while, you know how many kids I have?

[981] They don't really care about those things.

[982] Today, they're living in the moment.

[983] They're about today.

[984] My wife needs help with all these little rascals.

[985] So I've got to be dad.

[986] I've got to figure out even for myself going forward what I'm going to do, what else I love, and try to find those things.

[987] Well, and they want their dad to be alive, way more than they want their dad to be an NBA player.

[988] That'd be pretty cool.

[989] That'd be pretty cool.

[990] It's bigger than me. Yeah.

[991] That was actually, to be honest with you, getting rid of my ego.

[992] That was like the hardest thing because that was like the ultimate blow.

[993] Because just what you said right there, they want their dad.

[994] What is the first thing somebody in that situation would say, what I would have said, but this is what I do.

[995] Right.

[996] So you put yourself in a place where you're willing to go out for it.

[997] Oh, yeah.

[998] Do you know who Ronnie Coleman is?

[999] He was like, he won Mr. Olympian, like, I don't know.

[1000] or eight times he has had i don't know a dozen spinal cord surgeries because he just lifted way too heavy like other he trained like dudes don't train and they especially don't train this way anymore his warm up was 500 pounds squatting you know he just tore his body to bits and he's in the middle in this documentary he's about to go in for yet another one and he walks with two walkers and this this motherfucker gets up at 4 a .m. and hobbles to the gym and still lifts.

[1001] And I'm like, that is the power of identity.

[1002] He'd rather be dead than not be big.

[1003] And I'm like, man, there's a lesson for me here.

[1004] Because I feel like I too, at times, would kill myself to hold on to my identity.

[1005] So that's fascinating.

[1006] You say that, hold on to your identity.

[1007] Speaking for myself, if I were to have that same mind frame, like, what identity am I holding on to?

[1008] I'm in that age to where, yeah, me and my generation, we're retiring from the sport.

[1009] Who would have thunk it, you know?

[1010] Yeah.

[1011] I had a buddy, he sent me a question.

[1012] He's like, man, and he's, you know, he plays in Europe.

[1013] He's got family now.

[1014] He's got different decisions to make.

[1015] And he's, like, ask me, like, yo, what should I do?

[1016] Yeah.

[1017] And I told him, like, look, think about how long you've given your life to the game.

[1018] You don't even know who you are.

[1019] I don't even know who I am.

[1020] No. I need to, you need to figure out those things on top of trying to function in this real world.

[1021] Because, man, we've been in a bubble, man. You believe they have barricades at five -star hotels.

[1022] You know what I mean?

[1023] You know, you're just five -star hotel arena, nice home condo.

[1024] You know what I mean?

[1025] And the bus and that's our life.

[1026] And that's our bubble.

[1027] And then coming out, it's different.

[1028] You're also protected from the part of your brain that wants to destroy you.

[1029] Because anytime you start ruminating on what should I be doing, well, you've got to be somewhere.

[1030] So just the schedule, the schedule prevents you from spinning out about where you were at in life.

[1031] And I told him, I said, man, you got to get a schedule, man, because we're used to having schedules.

[1032] So have a schedule, even if it's just breakfast, 8 .30 to 9 .30, whatever, because it's going to be hard.

[1033] We've never given the time to ourselves to figure out small things like, what do I like?

[1034] What do I want to do?

[1035] What are my dreams?

[1036] Because it was just sports.

[1037] Now I'm in a position to where, okay, I mean, if it's sports, I could be a coach, a commentator, or something like that.

[1038] But I don't know if that's what I want to do.

[1039] Yeah.

[1040] It's just a totally crazy place to be.

[1041] Stay tuned for more armchair expert.

[1042] If you dare.

[1043] How long were you just like, fuck, I don't know, man. I don't know.

[1044] Three, four years?

[1045] Yeah.

[1046] You just feel like you're wondering.

[1047] I mean, the day -to -day is necessary.

[1048] I was taking out trash and cleaning up the house and doing those things that are necessary.

[1049] You just are thinking that you should be doing more.

[1050] It's like this illusion that you have to get past.

[1051] And, yeah, it took me about, yeah, three or four years.

[1052] Because, I mean, even then, like, you're.

[1053] You still feel like you're in the fall.

[1054] But, you know, to be honest, though, I started having empathy for people.

[1055] I would have conversation with friends, and they were, like, artists or musicians and stuff like that.

[1056] And I'm like, what do you do, like, in school?

[1057] You just, like, I had basketball.

[1058] Is this what people do?

[1059] Yeah, yeah.

[1060] Walking around and, ah, what am I doing, you know?

[1061] Yeah.

[1062] And I start empathizing because I had friends tell me, yeah, no, I couldn't.

[1063] wait to leave school.

[1064] And then when I get home, I didn't have friends.

[1065] It's like, wow, at least I had the ingrained schedule.

[1066] And we have a thing where people are actually watching and having fun.

[1067] Yeah, you're seeing.

[1068] You had a purpose.

[1069] Yeah.

[1070] It's a purpose.

[1071] It's a thing.

[1072] Like, what about the little black kid who's like, oh, I can code and I'm good at robotics?

[1073] It's like, yeah, whatever.

[1074] They don't even have the resources.

[1075] Therefore, when it's that time to fill that time after school now they get into trouble as opposed to using their gift so i start empathizing much more and understanding the world more for me personally i think my children were such a life raft in that because i still had this thing where identity wise like well i'm a dad and i take a lot of pride in that so it's like i don't know if i if i was facing that same situation and i was just alone you know i'm scared for that outcome yeah you know what i have those situations looking back now i didn't know what I was doing.

[1076] But at the time, and that's kind of how the book came about, every day for a year, I would take my son to school and I carpool it.

[1077] And he didn't want me to drop him off.

[1078] I couldn't drop him off.

[1079] He wanted me to park and walk him into class and then read him a book.

[1080] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1081] So I did that every day.

[1082] He's my oldest boy.

[1083] And so I was doing that every day.

[1084] and just being the school dad and just doing the things.

[1085] And when I got home, I write every morning.

[1086] And it didn't even make any sense.

[1087] I just write every morning.

[1088] And that was like my process for a while.

[1089] And so I kind of came around full circle because being in Austin, things are kind of getting back.

[1090] And there was this outside art event.

[1091] A lot of the people knew me from like, oh, yeah, you're in my carpool.

[1092] Yeah.

[1093] You remember, yeah, your kids go to my school.

[1094] And yeah, yeah.

[1095] You know, it's just like this fun.

[1096] kind of full circle moment where did I feel terrible some mornings just waking up?

[1097] Yeah, sure, but I had to get him to class.

[1098] He wants to read, talk to his teacher, and then I'm out.

[1099] And then I would find myself writing, just getting into that repetition kind of really helped me. And even though I didn't know what I was doing, I was doing it.

[1100] Yeah.

[1101] And it helped.

[1102] Yeah.

[1103] So when you wrote letters to a young athlete, do you think the process of writing it?

[1104] I've said this on here before a bunch of times quite often if I don't really understand how I felt about a situation I'll write about it and then in writing about it I guess I understand it for the first time and often feel the emotions for the first time that maybe I didn't did you have any kind of like cathartic experience writing it where it's like oh now that I'm forced to explain this thing I'm actually understanding it for myself yeah I guess the cathartic experience came from realizing that I had, like, Pat Rowley likes to call a lot of mental diarrhea.

[1105] Uh -huh.

[1106] You know what I'm saying?

[1107] Everything I was writing for weeks was just like, I'm looking at it.

[1108] First, I'm just, like, kind of just writing and not just getting it off my chest.

[1109] And then after weeks and weeks, it's like, wow, I really talk about this a lot.

[1110] Uh -huh.

[1111] Then it's like, yeah, man, I need to be a little more positive.

[1112] Yeah, yeah.

[1113] All right, we've been here.

[1114] I'm tired of writing about the same stuff.

[1115] Yeah.

[1116] So that helped me realize what was up here.

[1117] What you were stuck on.

[1118] Yeah.

[1119] And so I moved from that to appreciation for what I had, which was an illustrious career, wonderful children, a wonderful wife, a wonderful life, and just to be able to be in this position.

[1120] And like I say, when people see me, they smile.

[1121] That's just a wonderful, a wonderful thing to have.

[1122] man, appreciating those small things that I was too busy to realize because I was trying to be the best.

[1123] Right.

[1124] And then coming full circle, coming to that, having a better understanding for what's important, like being a father, providing for my family, teaching other young athletes, having something for them and for my children as well, teaching them and guiding them in the world we're living in as best as I can.

[1125] Those are the important things.

[1126] And you would immediately think, think like yeah Chris Bosch is writing a book what a privileged story to hear from your point of view just being one of the best players in the NBA but I think what is in the book which is also you have to recognize as an enormous privilege is not just that you got to play basketball but Pat Riley like Pat Riley's in your life yeah LeBron's in your life people are in your life that that's the gift like I always say that about show business it's like money's great I like not worrying about money but the gift is I get to be around these people who dedicated their life to something.

[1127] They learned about something.

[1128] They're engaged.

[1129] They're passionate.

[1130] Like, that's the gift.

[1131] This book is like a momento and homage or whatever to the people who helped me. So getting to that part, like, I had clothes on my back.

[1132] Wasn't the best clothes.

[1133] Let me be straight up.

[1134] We always had food in the fridge.

[1135] Not the best or a lot of food, but we weren't hungry.

[1136] You didn't have stover, stove top stuffing?

[1137] We didn't have too much stovetop stuffing.

[1138] We did not.

[1139] Thanksgiving.

[1140] Have you heard the Chappelle routine about stovetop stuffing?

[1141] Oh, it's classic.

[1142] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1143] Classic.

[1144] But, like, you get to a point where I just start appreciating, like, man, I remember when one of my coaches, he took me to eat and he took me for pizza.

[1145] Not that we didn't have pizza at home, but my mom was not going to buy pizza on a weekday.

[1146] Yeah.

[1147] After the game, after a tough loss, my coach taking me home and having that conversation or encouraging me to be better or keeping.

[1148] keeping the gym open for me to hopefully hone my talents.

[1149] And now I'm like going in the Hall of Fame.

[1150] So like talking to those coaches and saying, damn, if you didn't leave the gym open for me, I wouldn't have attained what I attained.

[1151] He would always say, yo, I just wanted you guys to get home safely.

[1152] That's why I took you guys home.

[1153] That's why I made that sacrifice to, he didn't say this sacrifice, but that's how I, you know, in my mind, because it was.

[1154] Yeah.

[1155] He's like, he's taking people home.

[1156] He's got kids.

[1157] He's married, but he's taking me home across town.

[1158] to make sure I get home safely.

[1159] So those were the things that I've mainly been thinking about and how appreciative I am about them.

[1160] Yeah, I feel like I'm at a similar place in life where you can't tell your story without these people that helped you.

[1161] And then you start asking yourself like, hmm, how many people got a story to tell about me or I willingly got inconvenience to help somebody?

[1162] Yeah, you got to show people what's possible, right?

[1163] I mean, if you tell them, if you show them what's possible, I think first, like, when you enter something like you did or something like we did, I'm just trying to prove myself all the time.

[1164] I got myself here.

[1165] You know, I'm better than this or I did this.

[1166] I accomplished this.

[1167] Like, I just got to prove.

[1168] Here are the stats.

[1169] And then you can lose sight of like, oh, no, but you had a lot of help.

[1170] You had all kinds of help.

[1171] Absolutely.

[1172] And then, like, for me, step one is just admitting that.

[1173] Like, yeah, I didn't get here by myself.

[1174] And in fuck, I'm obligated to help some people get here.

[1175] No, absolutely.

[1176] And that's kind of hopefully the thing that people see recognize the responsibility that we all have to help somebody.

[1177] You don't have to give them empty your bank account or anything like that.

[1178] But, hey, yeah, maybe it's just a pat on the back or an encouraging word.

[1179] Or how are you?

[1180] You'd be surprised.

[1181] I've seen people damn near cry.

[1182] Like, man, how you doing?

[1183] Nobody's asked me that in years.

[1184] Like, how it's a fuck how I'm doing.

[1185] Man, it is crazy out here.

[1186] We got a Well, Chris, you're awesome.

[1187] I'm so delighted we got to talk to you.

[1188] I hope everyone gets letters to a young athlete, and I think you writing letters to a young athlete is part of what we're talking about.

[1189] Giving back.

[1190] Yeah, making an effort to help somebody.

[1191] And I hope you take pride in that.

[1192] And I hope my dream now in life is to be on Lake Austin one day.

[1193] Monica and I'll be in a pontoon boat, and I'll go, look how fucking tall this guy wakeboarding is.

[1194] Oh, that's her friend.

[1195] Wakeboarder.

[1196] That could be your new identity.

[1197] It's like, this is a 6 -10 black news wakeboard.

[1198] Oh, that's my.

[1199] Yo, what up, bro?

[1200] Well, Chris, man, great meeting you.

[1201] I hope I bump into you in real life.

[1202] And good luck with letters to a young athlete.

[1203] Absolutely.

[1204] I appreciate that.

[1205] All right.

[1206] Thanks, guys.

[1207] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Batman.

[1208] This is the part of our job I look the most forward to.

[1209] It's the reward for the interviews and the ads and the intro.

[1210] This is the one where it starts and I can't wait to hear your facts.

[1211] Celebration?

[1212] It is.

[1213] This is the funnest part.

[1214] You're going to be upset.

[1215] Well, hold on.

[1216] Before I get upset, let me give you more stuff.

[1217] Okay.

[1218] I have it too when we do armchair dangerous.

[1219] When we sit down with David, you know that excitement we have when we sit down with David and he's just going to teach us something?

[1220] Yes.

[1221] That's what I have with you.

[1222] Okay, now for the bad news.

[1223] I only have two facts.

[1224] Okay, well, that's plenty of facts.

[1225] Two more facts than I previously had.

[1226] Wow, that's a great way of looking at it.

[1227] 200 % more.

[1228] So optimistic.

[1229] It is gloomy today.

[1230] I know there was a light drizzle today.

[1231] Ugh.

[1232] I know, I know, I know.

[1233] Gloomy and lost him.

[1234] Sad, sad, sad.

[1235] Do you want to update anyone on your...

[1236] Mental health?

[1237] Yeah, because you included them when you made the decision.

[1238] I did, and I should.

[1239] If you notice a difference in Monica, like a spring in her step or something.

[1240] Well, you may have noticed a spring and then a dip in your, and then a back to regular walk.

[1241] Well, no, a little bit more than a slow walk, like a fast walk, but not a spring.

[1242] No, okay.

[1243] Because this is what happened.

[1244] I'll just be honest.

[1245] So I was on it.

[1246] I was on one.

[1247] Then I switched because I was very lethargic on the first one.

[1248] It was very tired.

[1249] And then I switched.

[1250] And you liked that one.

[1251] I did.

[1252] And then I went up on that dose.

[1253] And I felt great.

[1254] And not because I wasn't feeling it, but because my psychiatrist was like, I wonder if you're feeling the full benefit.

[1255] So let's go up and see.

[1256] We can always go back down.

[1257] So we went up and it was good.

[1258] I did notice mentally I was feeling great.

[1259] Would it be more accurate to just seem more stable?

[1260] Yeah.

[1261] Probably.

[1262] But then I felt more stable and good mentally, but I did not feel great in my body.

[1263] Physically, I did not feel awesome.

[1264] And I had gained some weight.

[1265] There's a billion reasons that could have happened.

[1266] But my mother is also on that antidepressant.

[1267] And she also gained weight pretty much immediately when she got on it.

[1268] Uh -huh.

[1269] So anyway, but more than, more than, like, the weight.

[1270] It was that I felt I was, like, dragging my feet along, like.

[1271] Lumbering.

[1272] Yeah.

[1273] So I cut my prescription in half.

[1274] Right.

[1275] So I'm still on it, but I'm back to the old dose.

[1276] Have you told your psychiatrist yet?

[1277] Uh, no. Okay.

[1278] So that was not, that's not recommended.

[1279] No, no. It's not recommended.

[1280] Maybe he knows now.

[1281] But I, I did that on my own.

[1282] I did tell my therapist.

[1283] Oh, okay.

[1284] And I just said, hey, I did this.

[1285] Hey, well, you tell my psychiatrist.

[1286] No, they do, like, talk about me. Oh, like they're in cahoots.

[1287] God, you have a comprehensive plan.

[1288] I do.

[1289] That's what you got to.

[1290] I applaud it.

[1291] Yeah, but I was like, I don't think you need to tell.

[1292] I don't know that you need to tell him.

[1293] But anyway, I don't know if she did or didn't, whatever.

[1294] So now I'm adjusting back to that, and it takes a while.

[1295] Mm -hmm.

[1296] I don't know.

[1297] I don't know.

[1298] I'm just trying things out.

[1299] I don't think there should be any pressure to have a conclusion yet.

[1300] Yeah, I don't have one.

[1301] But, of course, my brain's always trying to make one.

[1302] Yes, of course.

[1303] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1304] That's what brains do.

[1305] Yeah, I know.

[1306] They want to get the work off their desk.

[1307] They want to file it somewhere.

[1308] I appreciate that.

[1309] Yeah, they're trying to keep it unc cluttered up there.

[1310] Yeah.

[1311] So they're like, I don't have another two months to evaluate whether it's working or not.

[1312] Let's just say it is or it's not.

[1313] Yeah.

[1314] But I'm just going to have to ride it out and see.

[1315] And then as always, like, there's so many variables.

[1316] How does anyone know anything?

[1317] Like, okay, yeah, quarantine.

[1318] Oh, what did you eat?

[1319] Oh, have you exercised?

[1320] What's the weather like?

[1321] Yep.

[1322] Oh, my God.

[1323] So many things.

[1324] Are you pregnant?

[1325] Are you?

[1326] So many things.

[1327] Do you have a terminal illness?

[1328] Oh, God.

[1329] Not you, but people.

[1330] Okay.

[1331] It's just hard to know what the hell has resolved.

[1332] I mean, this is me who my arthritis is large.

[1333] under control, but this fucking a year and a half, now my face peels off.

[1334] Yeah.

[1335] My face peels off, I don't know, at its height this year, like twice a week.

[1336] Yeah, and it's hard to know what.

[1337] And I'm like, oh, it's chicken.

[1338] I figure out it's chicken.

[1339] Then I don't eat chicken.

[1340] Then I go like seven, eight days without it, ten days.

[1341] Well, it was chicken.

[1342] Then boom, it's fucking back.

[1343] That happened last week.

[1344] It did.

[1345] But are you a little grateful that it's not chicken?

[1346] Well, then I get just, once I associate it, which I still haven't had chicken.

[1347] Because I, like, associate it with, I had a real bad reaction right after consuming, like, virtually five or six chickens.

[1348] Oh, my God.

[1349] Well, I had a lot of...

[1350] Well, that could be it.

[1351] Could be it, too.

[1352] But then I'm like, oh, you know, the thing I never want to admit it is, is stress.

[1353] So, like, it broke out right before we had to run through the game show.

[1354] And I don't think I'm...

[1355] I'm not nervous to shoot the game show.

[1356] Right.

[1357] But some part of my brain is like, this is unknown.

[1358] Failure is an option.

[1359] These things that I don't...

[1360] You're doing a game show, by the way.

[1361] with Kristen.

[1362] Yeah, congratulations.

[1363] Congratulations.

[1364] Yeah, family game fight, we're about to shoot, and so we had a run through.

[1365] And then, you know, it's not until four days later, I'm like, God, I didn't eat chicken.

[1366] What the fuck happened?

[1367] Like, oh, that's weird.

[1368] About 36 hours before that, all of a sudden, it happened.

[1369] So how are we...

[1370] Stress is, I think, always the thing that tips all of these things.

[1371] Yeah.

[1372] But it's not the only thing.

[1373] Or maybe it is.

[1374] But I think for me, the reason I don't want to acknowledge that is because then I'd have to ask myself, what?

[1375] I can't have a second job.

[1376] Maybe that's the conclusion.

[1377] I don't want to admit that.

[1378] I'm incentivized to not acknowledge that maybe I put myself into too much stress sometimes.

[1379] Yeah.

[1380] I have a ding, ding, ding, because my face is peeling off right now.

[1381] I don't notice it.

[1382] Yeah, I just peeled some skin off.

[1383] Oh, my God, this is exciting.

[1384] I think you're molting.

[1385] I'm molting.

[1386] You're like, you're metamorphosizing.

[1387] Into a butterfly?

[1388] Yes.

[1389] But it's weird, though, because you're already a butterfly, but you're going to turn into, like, a Navi version.

[1390] Dragonfly.

[1391] No, the Navi version of a butterfly.

[1392] What's that?

[1393] Avatar, that world they live in.

[1394] Yeah.

[1395] Everything there is prettier.

[1396] Oh, okay.

[1397] So whatever a butterfly is times 10, that's what you're going to turn into.

[1398] That's exciting.

[1399] Oh, you got some beautiful pictures taken of yourself.

[1400] Oh, I did.

[1401] I want people to go to your Instagram and take up gander.

[1402] You look just beautiful.

[1403] Thank you.

[1404] Yeah.

[1405] I hate.

[1406] Looking at pictures of myself, obviously.

[1407] It's torture.

[1408] It is.

[1409] Not looking at pictures of you, but me. Yeah, of yourself.

[1410] Yeah, it's very hard to do.

[1411] So I was very pleased because I liked them, and it's so rare.

[1412] That made me so happy.

[1413] It made me so happy.

[1414] Thanks.

[1415] I mean, I really just credited to the amazing photographer, Nick.

[1416] He should get a lot of credit, and then you should give yourself some credit.

[1417] 1%.

[1418] I'm going to give you a lot more than that.

[1419] You got hypnotized.

[1420] You've put in some work to see yourself differently than you had been seeing yourself, and it's starting to pay some...

[1421] Dividends?

[1422] Yes.

[1423] You should feel like a babe.

[1424] Everyone thinks you're a babe, and it's about time you...

[1425] You're the last holdout.

[1426] Well, my face is falling off.

[1427] You know what it is?

[1428] I know what's happening.

[1429] I can't believe I never thought of it.

[1430] What?

[1431] Oh, my God, revelation.

[1432] It's your adversion to peer pressure, because everyone thinks you're good looking, and you're like, I'm not going to succumb to that point of view.

[1433] In fact, I'm hideous.

[1434] That's what's going to...

[1435] No, it's not.

[1436] No, I really don't like the look of my face.

[1437] I understand that.

[1438] Okay.

[1439] Let's just want you to know that.

[1440] I challenge you to open up your fucking Instagram right now and read the comments.

[1441] I like those pictures.

[1442] I just said that.

[1443] I like those pictures.

[1444] They don't really look like me. Okay.

[1445] But I like them.

[1446] And so that's why I put them out.

[1447] I put that in the caption.

[1448] Like, I'm not trying to, I'm not going to write something funny here.

[1449] I'm saying that I like.

[1450] like these, that's why they're here.

[1451] Can I admit something, and this is so bad to admit.

[1452] Tell me. But in the pursuit of honesty.

[1453] And happiness.

[1454] I've been thinking, I look handsome occasionally.

[1455] That's great.

[1456] Yeah, I was watching what's happening to us.

[1457] I don't know.

[1458] This is great, though.

[1459] Or are we becoming egomaniacs?

[1460] I don't know.

[1461] But I was watching Top Gear America with the girls this weekend.

[1462] There were a couple moments where I'm like, I'm into this guy.

[1463] It's like a tall, skinny cowboy.

[1464] I like that you think that.

[1465] Yeah, it felt great.

[1466] And then, of course, then they catch me at an angle and I was super sweaty and greasy.

[1467] And then I was like, oh, oh, Jesus Christ, go to the other shot.

[1468] I know.

[1469] I like posted those pictures and then immediately went to post our pictures for the week.

[1470] And I was like, oh, my God.

[1471] I can't post any of these.

[1472] Do you feel protected by me, by the way?

[1473] Do you think I have a good lens of when you're not going to like how you look?

[1474] No. Sometimes you post it.

[1475] Oh, okay.

[1476] All right.

[1477] And then I want to text you, but then what are you going to do?

[1478] Take it down.

[1479] Like, no. At this point, people have seen it.

[1480] Today, there's a couple pictures of you I thought were really cute.

[1481] But I was like, I know she won't like that.

[1482] I know it.

[1483] That's a nice way of saying they were bad.

[1484] No, I liked them.

[1485] But I know you well enough now that I know which ones that you don't like that I like.

[1486] Okay.

[1487] So today I didn't give you a close -up.

[1488] Did you notice?

[1489] I didn't either.

[1490] Right.

[1491] Because I looked hideous.

[1492] You didn't look hideous, but I knew you wouldn't like it.

[1493] So I didn't give you a close -up in the carousel.

[1494] I appreciate that.

[1495] I do.

[1496] This is most narcissistic.

[1497] It's still narcissistic of just two people are involved in it, right?

[1498] What do you mean?

[1499] Like, I was like, oh, this is the most narcissistic five -minute talk.

[1500] But because there's two of us, it didn't feel narcissistic.

[1501] Well, I also, I don't think it should be narcissistic to like yourself.

[1502] I think that's what we should be striving to do.

[1503] Oh, yeah.

[1504] But we're not liking ourselves here in this, most of this wrap -up, but what photos we're selecting out and killing.

[1505] Oh, and you're saying we're just too focused on it.

[1506] Oh, yeah.

[1507] Well, look, I mean, it's part of our job to post pictures of ourselves.

[1508] So if it's part of anyone's job to post pictures of themselves, they're going to have the exact same issue.

[1509] I have a good question for you.

[1510] Yeah.

[1511] When we go downstairs and stand in front of the garage to take a picture with a What goes through your mind?

[1512] Because I have the most specific thought.

[1513] Really?

[1514] I don't have the thought.

[1515] I go, you're going to look fucking ugly.

[1516] Get over it big deal.

[1517] And then I just stop thinking about it.

[1518] You do?

[1519] Yeah.

[1520] That's how I get through.

[1521] Why do you have that down there but not in here?

[1522] What do you mean?

[1523] Why do you have that thought when you're taking the picture down by the garage?

[1524] Because I'm posing for a picture.

[1525] Like when Robbie Robb, aka Wobbywob, takes a photo of us while we're interviewing somebody, I'm thinking about the interview.

[1526] I'm aware I can see him in my periphery, but I'm not posing for a picture.

[1527] Like, I'm just being mean, he's taking pictures.

[1528] But when we go downstairs, it's like, put your arm around the person, smile.

[1529] I'm like, oh my God, my smile's crooked, my eyes are wrinkly when I smile.

[1530] I'm a big bloated pig.

[1531] And then I go, oh, gives a fuck smile.

[1532] And then I make myself stop thinking about it.

[1533] Okay, that's nice.

[1534] I don't have that when we're taking that kind of smiley picture.

[1535] But I obviously have it the whole time the pictures are being taken during the interview.

[1536] Okay, all right.

[1537] So, anyhow.

[1538] Well, that's every single thing we think about about the photos.

[1539] Yeah, that's right.

[1540] That's a little behind the scenes, BTS.

[1541] Behind the insecure curtain?

[1542] Back to my mental health.

[1543] Oh, right, right, right, right.

[1544] This probably didn't help anything.

[1545] Probably very part of it.

[1546] Like, when your mental health's great, you're probably more likely to like what you see in the mirror.

[1547] but if you're mental health in the dump and then you look at them and you're like on top of everything, this.

[1548] Yeah, that's true.

[1549] That's true.

[1550] Because on ecstasy, I always felt like I looked just like Brad Pitt.

[1551] Oh.

[1552] Yeah, when I would take ecstasy, I'm like, I am the hottest guy in this nightclub and I'd be smiling and excited about it.

[1553] Yeah, I felt sexy.

[1554] Wow.

[1555] I know.

[1556] You should do it.

[1557] People should take ecstasy every day before they go to school so they're not...

[1558] No, no. We're not saying that.

[1559] Strike that.

[1560] Our guest, spoiler alert.

[1561] He just recommended it right at the end.

[1562] Well, no, he didn't.

[1563] No, he didn't.

[1564] He said what he would do.

[1565] He didn't say people should.

[1566] Oh, you're right.

[1567] You're right, you're right.

[1568] Which is a difference.

[1569] Uh -huh.

[1570] You would have been a great lawyer.

[1571] Your dad's right.

[1572] I would have.

[1573] Thank you.

[1574] You would have had to have adopted a whole persona.

[1575] I'm trying to imagine you making your opening and or closing remarks.

[1576] At what?

[1577] As a lawyer.

[1578] Oh, I'm sorry.

[1579] Yeah.

[1580] What are you thinking about?

[1581] Chris Bosch?

[1582] Yeah, actually, yes.

[1583] Yes.

[1584] I lost the email and now I'm looking for my email to myself.

[1585] But, okay, my opening remarks, I keep it really intimate casual when I'm talking to the jury.

[1586] Oh, okay.

[1587] I don't want to seem too profesh because then they'll check out.

[1588] But if I get intimate, then I'll manipulate them.

[1589] Oh, yeah.

[1590] Yeah.

[1591] I might frame it all as questions.

[1592] Did Michael kill his wife?

[1593] Well, that's what we're here to ask ourselves.

[1594] You know, you've got to wonder what was in it for Michael.

[1595] Well, I don't see anything.

[1596] You know, I'd just be a barrage of questions.

[1597] Like, I don't know anything, and you don't either.

[1598] Oh, wow.

[1599] And no one will know anything at the end of this beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[1600] I would kill you.

[1601] Oh, in the court.

[1602] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1603] Yeah, pack of lunch.

[1604] It's going to take you a while.

[1605] You would be talking for so long.

[1606] They would check out.

[1607] You'd remember they'd check out.

[1608] And they'd be getting PQs because I'd be dancing.

[1609] I don't know.

[1610] What does Michael do on the weekend?

[1611] I can tell you what I do on the weekend.

[1612] I find that baseline and I ride it.

[1613] Oh, my God.

[1614] Do you think any lawyer has tried a case on ecstasy?

[1615] I'm sure.

[1616] I mean, I know they have on cocaine and stuff.

[1617] Well, hasn't Eric?

[1618] Oh, we should ask him.

[1619] No, he wasn't a trial lawyer, was he?

[1620] He was not, no. But not on MDMA.

[1621] I don't think on MDMA.

[1622] No, he was on opioid.

[1623] Well, Ritalin and.

[1624] Adderall.

[1625] Natterol and opiates to cut the edge.

[1626] Yeah, to bring him right back where he started.

[1627] I think he gave that up a while before.

[1628] No, remember he?

[1629] Yeah, he did.

[1630] He had a big incident.

[1631] But he had managed to quit cocaine while still an addict.

[1632] Similarly, I quit MDMA while I was a drug addict.

[1633] Oh.

[1634] I was like, I cannot do this drug and not do eight hits of it.

[1635] Oof.

[1636] I just can't.

[1637] And I'm like, I can't do it.

[1638] Like, if it had taken me a kilo of cocaine to get high, or whatever.

[1639] to quit that too.

[1640] That's scary.

[1641] Isn't it weird how I was thinking about this the other day because we have a friend whose dad is not their dad.

[1642] We have a friend whose dad is not their dad.

[1643] Like she grew up thinking her dad was her dad and then learned that her dad was not her dad.

[1644] Ooh.

[1645] And of course you hear these stories and you're like, oh my, that is nuts.

[1646] Like, who would end up in these crazy situations?

[1647] These situations are ridiculous.

[1648] But I feel like all of us could end up in these situations very easily.

[1649] This has been my worldview always.

[1650] Yeah.

[1651] I think because I grew up around a lot of people making bad decisions and stuff.

[1652] Yeah.

[1653] I assume, yeah, that the cop is drunk.

[1654] Some of the cops are drunk in town.

[1655] You know, like, some people would see a cop acting weird and be like, well, he can't be drunk because cops would never be drunk.

[1656] And I'm like, no, no, the cop in my town was fucking drunk.

[1657] I saw like, so that's an option.

[1658] I think it's just the more shit you see, you're like, oh, that's an option too.

[1659] Oh, okay.

[1660] Yeah, like, it's just a slippery slope between when you were just like a party, you just like went out.

[1661] And then you are all of a sudden a huge drug addict who lost three days of time.

[1662] That just is more like when you just hear the story isolated, it sounds crazy.

[1663] But it's just, I think we're all just a couple steps away from that and don't know.

[1664] You're right.

[1665] The Reader's Digest version sounds crazy.

[1666] And then having lived through them all, none of them seemed that crazy.

[1667] Yeah.

[1668] I mean, there were definitely a few.

[1669] I was like, what am I doing here doing this?

[1670] But in general, even the...

[1671] But even that, that's what I mean.

[1672] It's just like one step after another after another.

[1673] There's small steps that get you all of a sudden very far away.

[1674] Yes, I never made a decision.

[1675] I'm going to stay up for the next.

[1676] 62 hours but one line at a time sometimes you're like oh sunday evening started this on Thursday night yeah I just think it's kind of good to remember that like everyone is susceptible to some crazy story or life experience it's just it's just a good reminder to not judge other people well like when you hear the story it sounds like a story of jumping off of a bridge yeah and And if you've had those experiences, there's no big leap.

[1677] Yeah, exactly.

[1678] You know, it's just, in retrospect, and viewed in its totality, is a big leap off a bridge.

[1679] But never...

[1680] Baby steps.

[1681] I know it's interesting.

[1682] Yeah.

[1683] I'm going to talk about some facts now.

[1684] Chris Bosch.

[1685] Great.

[1686] I really, really liked them.

[1687] Me too.

[1688] Sincerely, I was like, what a good person.

[1689] Yeah.

[1690] So my facts are both pulmonary embolism.

[1691] Oh, okay.

[1692] How old was he when he found out he had that.

[1693] I think 2015 is what I could gather, and then I'll find his birthday.

[1694] So you can do fast math.

[1695] Can't wait.

[1696] Okay, that sounded really sarcastic.

[1697] 84.

[1698] So 16 and 15 is 31.

[1699] Do you not like doing fast math anymore?

[1700] I love doing that.

[1701] Are you kidding me?

[1702] You know I do.

[1703] Oh, but you were sarcastic when I said you could do fast math.

[1704] I didn't know that meant.

[1705] I just said...

[1706] You didn't like my reaction to knowing I was going...

[1707] It didn't seem enthusiastic enough to you.

[1708] It felt like, oh, I got to do this again.

[1709] Here comes this.

[1710] No, I was like, okay.

[1711] Let's do this.

[1712] Can you try it one more time?

[1713] Yeah.

[1714] So pulmonary embolism, I'm going to tell you 2015, I'm going to look up his birthday, so you can do fast math.

[1715] Boy, I can't wait.

[1716] Much better.

[1717] Much, much, much, much better.

[1718] Okay.

[1719] What exactly is a pulmonary?

[1720] symbolism and how common are they sudden blockage in a lung artery usually happens when a blood clot breaks loose and travels through the bloodstream to the lungs serious condition that can cause permanent damage to the lungs low oxygen levels in your blood it affects around one in one thousand people in the u .s every year that's not a global stat that's just a domestic stat we only care about the domestic stats what do we know about the other stats oh this is another global versus oh domestic box office for This is global box office.

[1721] This is domestic box office pulmonary ambulism.

[1722] One in a thousand.

[1723] I wonder if it's higher or lower.

[1724] I imagine it's lower throughout the rest of the world.

[1725] Given our diet, is it at all?

[1726] Oh, good question.

[1727] I don't know.

[1728] I don't even know if it's diet related.

[1729] I shouldn't even say that.

[1730] I'm going to cut that.

[1731] I feel like every, bro, put that back in.

[1732] I feel like everything is diet related.

[1733] But I probably am religious about food and not objective.

[1734] Yeah.

[1735] Well, you do.

[1736] You think chicken is the ding, ding, ding, cause of your face peeling.

[1737] Maltine.

[1738] But now we're both multing, so that's exciting.

[1739] Well, what that is pointing to is that there is some kind of contaminant in the attic that's finally affected our faces.

[1740] And Rob's looks great because he's been gone for a year.

[1741] He hasn't been soaking up the contaminant in here.

[1742] I had a full layer of skin, just...

[1743] You extra skin.

[1744] Oh, wow.

[1745] Whole body.

[1746] Wow.

[1747] Mine is hormonal.

[1748] Mm -hmm.

[1749] I've been having a very weird month.

[1750] I guess I'll be honest about that, too.

[1751] Okay, great.

[1752] I have had basically PMS symptoms this whole month.

[1753] But don't you think that might be related to cut your...

[1754] Yeah.

[1755] I have a feeling.

[1756] Yeah.

[1757] But I cut this medication now.

[1758] Do you hear how scared I was to ask that?

[1759] it's okay to be scared to ask that yeah yeah okay but i heard my own voice i was like i mean go that epicum people well but what's weird is it's not my mood is irregular that's actually not what i'm talking about my body PMS symptoms so breast tenderness oh geez i know listen if you saw those photos and you want to help monica through the breast tenderness i you know slip into her DMs.

[1760] Slide right in.

[1761] We can't have you going around the world with tender breasts.

[1762] We've got to have someone on the...

[1763] Well, what do you think?

[1764] You think someone's going to make them not tender by putting what their mouth on it?

[1765] I think that might make it worse, but I'm not going to say that.

[1766] There's a lot of medicinal effects to hot dogging.

[1767] I don't know if you knew that.

[1768] Oh, God.

[1769] Oh, my God.

[1770] Okay.

[1771] So if you think you have the magic hot dogging...

[1772] No, please.

[1773] If you think that, please do not slide into my DM.

[1774] What if someone, all right, this is a hypothetical.

[1775] Someone really has had miraculous results with hot dogging, i .e., their wife had mastitis in their breasts.

[1776] They hot dogged him, and then all of a sudden, all the blockage just dissolved and oozed out.

[1777] It was just like spraying.

[1778] Everything is healthy, and then the hot dog was spraying.

[1779] Okay.

[1780] That's great for you.

[1781] You don't need to tell me that.

[1782] Hold on, no. Like they have a legit, let's just say they have a legit, something crazy about the way they hot dog is.

[1783] It's very therapeutic.

[1784] So what?

[1785] Don't you think they'd feel like obliged to help you as a good Samaritan?

[1786] I don't have mastitis.

[1787] I know.

[1788] Well, we don't know until someone hot dogs you.

[1789] We'll find out, I guess.

[1790] I really regret saying breast tenderness.

[1791] But I do.

[1792] And then also some cramping night sweats.

[1793] Oh.

[1794] So if you wanted a hot dog, you probably don't anymore now that you know about the night sweats.

[1795] I'd argue something differently.

[1796] that they're ready for the hot doggy.

[1797] That's something that normally happens during my period.

[1798] Right.

[1799] Right.

[1800] But it has been happening all month and it's new.

[1801] You know what this might do, open up a big can of worms like my pee.

[1802] Everyone's going to diagnose you.

[1803] Yeah, with peeing in the bed.

[1804] Yeah.

[1805] Which I'm okay with them just saying because.

[1806] If you've got a take on her medical situation, slide into her DMs.

[1807] slide that hot dog into my oh my goodness that was it slide that hot dog of an opinion right into her DMs that was it well great only two well this lived up to exactly what I said my favorite part of the whole shebang that's nice yeah Rob put that back in all right I love you love you love you Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[1808] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

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