Kathryn Hahn

[0] Hello, everybody.

[1] Welcome to armchair expert.

[2] I'm Dax Shepard and I'm here with Manicapidman.

[3] And today we have a very naughty mommy on a bad mom.

[4] Catherine Hahn.

[5] Sounds so gross.

[6] It does, right?

[7] I'm trying to make it sexual because I'm trying to peak everyone's P -I -Q -U -E.

[8] Yeah.

[9] Oh, great way to spell it.

[10] That's how you spell it.

[11] And I want to give people P -Qs, which I think we maybe even go into in this episode.

[12] Who knows?

[13] You'll learn what P -Qs are eventually.

[14] Yeah.

[15] It's kind of our secret.

[16] It's kind of our, now it's fine.

[17] Now it's everyone's telling everyone's our secrets, but okay.

[18] What else are we going to do?

[19] We've invited everyone into our home and that's how it is.

[20] Catherine Hahn, you've seen her in a million things.

[21] She's been brilliant in every single one of those things.

[22] I've yet to see her be anything but great.

[23] And just a very unique, wonderful perspective on parenting, on navigating her professional life, on marriage.

[24] So many fun things.

[25] Catherine Hahn, over -delivered.

[26] Please enjoy.

[27] Oh, lastly, a couple seats left.

[28] If you want to go see us in Brooklyn on September 22nd, go to the website.

[29] Enjoy.

[30] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

[31] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[32] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[33] He's an armchair expert.

[34] He's an upchair expert.

[35] Welcome, Catherine Hott.

[36] We're in the middle of an argument.

[37] Go ahead.

[38] You were saying on Kimmel, you were terrible.

[39] I was absolutely awful.

[40] No, you absolutely were not.

[41] I steamrolled, I bum rushed, I'm horrible.

[42] No. Yes, because this is what happens.

[43] No, no, no, no. I blow it.

[44] I blow my wad on the pre -interview.

[45] I feel like I have to charm the pre -interviewer.

[46] Me too.

[47] No. Me too.

[48] But you still have life and you still have spontaneity.

[49] and you still bring it as if it's a first -time story with the actual interviewer.

[50] And I feel like what happens is I feel like, like I've done it.

[51] And then I'm like, oh, no, I'm trying to repeat it.

[52] So for people that don't know, when you see someone on Kimmel or Conan or any talk show, they have talked to us, a Conan, you've talked to a segment producer beforehand.

[53] And they said, hey, I saw this tweet.

[54] Do you want to tell me about that story, right?

[55] And then you tell the story to the segment producer.

[56] I agree.

[57] I generally feel like I tell that segment producer.

[58] a much better story than I tell the talk show host and then you get out there and now as opposed of telling a fun story you're trying to remember all the beats of the story you've once told right yes but can I can I give you just an unsolicited piece of advice fine please watch some other people on talk shows because let me tell you something let me tell you something my wife suffers from the same illness you do which is a total lack of objectivity about your own performance on a talk show so my wife will go, oh my God, I'm terrible.

[59] I'm not even listening.

[60] I'm just out there steam rolling blah, blah.

[61] Same basically list you just gave.

[62] But the problem is, is she doesn't watch nighttime talk shows, do you?

[63] Never.

[64] Of course not.

[65] The only time you ever watch them is yourself.

[66] So you're judging against something that, what are you even comparing it to?

[67] Please, just one night this week, tune it in, watch another actress on a talk show.

[68] And you will then hear my words to be true.

[69] You are fantastic on talk shows.

[70] You know your story.

[71] You have a ton of personality.

[72] and energy and it's fantastic.

[73] You need to check in with some other interviews.

[74] Okay, okay.

[75] It's hard, first of all.

[76] It is.

[77] And you're doing a great job.

[78] But I feel like it is, this is the thing.

[79] I am a pretty private human.

[80] I have little cute stories.

[81] Okay.

[82] That I tell.

[83] Okay.

[84] What, like at dinner parties or just on TV?

[85] No, on those TV stories.

[86] Okay, okay.

[87] So I always feel like a little, it's like a little surfacy cute story.

[88] anecdote that feels a little there's a little part of it that feels just a little punched up yeah flourished and gross fraudulent yes you feel a little fraudulent it just feels a little gross okay yeah I mean I do know and I know I it's a part of the thing I'm grateful yeah and it's fun I always feel like I leave those places feeling like I've eaten like a twinkie okay uh -huh you know what I mean like I was kind of like get back in the car afterwards and I go home feeling like I've eaten like I didn't need that I just like feel like I've eaten a little like I don't know it just feels a little like I don't know that wasn't really authentic and that that's okay I always feel like I've sold a family member oh no like a child yeah I don't know well what's challenging is very few stories involved just you in life right it's not like you know you were driving down the road you didn't see a road close signing and you jumped up 50 -foot gap just generally you're with somebody your life involves other people if it's worth repeating so invariably you're you're dragging someone who's maybe anonymous in real life into your public thing and it can be a little dicey right I mean have you watched that show that Netflix special nanette yes yeah not to brag but we watched it without you so sorry so sorry we didn't I don't know what your feelings are on that yet, but I have not stopped thinking about it about that part of it where she discusses the moment after the punchline.

[89] Right.

[90] And about, I keep maybe that I've, maybe I'm having that feeling about the.

[91] Well, really quickly, for those of you who have not seen it, she outlines the structure of a joke and then a structure of a joke generally involves building tension, building tension, then breaking the tension with a great punchline in that in telling her real life stories in the format of a joke, she's actually leaving out the part where the tension actually wasn't broken, in fact, maybe it crescendoed in violence in real life, in that she felt fraudulent in that she's not really telling her story, she's telling a joke version of her story.

[92] And she feels compelled to tell the truth on this special.

[93] Is that fair assessment?

[94] And that I feel that I took it as so often, you know, so much of my life and so many of us lead that the truth, like our true story is somewhere on the other side.

[95] And so much of how we curate our life, like is on the other side of that curation.

[96] Like however we decide to tell our story, there's something always on the other side of that.

[97] Well, I have a similar interest, but mine is more like, so you have your story.

[98] But to me, what's even more interesting is, is how did you end up in that story?

[99] Because what I'm most interested is what actually happens before the story.

[100] Like, why even, if I've got a motorcycle story of some, I got hit on my motorcycle, I'm really curious, why do I even ride a motorcycle?

[101] What compelled me to take this up as a hobby?

[102] That's to me, like, that's what I'm super interested in in people is like, questioning why we do anything we do, because we do all these things that feel just very natural and organic to us.

[103] But there is an explanation for nearly everything we're doing if you're curious.

[104] Yeah.

[105] Like you don't really just find yourself anywhere.

[106] There's all these events that led up to it.

[107] And I guess I'm always interested in trying to maybe break patterns I'm in.

[108] So for me to break a pattern, I first need to know like, what am I confirming identity -wise?

[109] Or what is my thesis as a person that I'm doing this to prove something?

[110] something to other people.

[111] I'm this thing.

[112] You know, like, I first need to know why I'm even, what's the causality of all my behavior?

[113] I'm, you know, yes.

[114] I'm very curious in that.

[115] Yeah.

[116] Like we had, do you know Sam Harris?

[117] Do you listen to this podcast?

[118] I did it once.

[119] Oh, you did?

[120] Yeah.

[121] Wait, you were on Sam Harris?

[122] I think so.

[123] Oh, there's a couple Sam Harris.

[124] There might be, we might get in, we might be into over.

[125] Is he the black and white?

[126] Oh, that's Sam Jones and I watched it and you were great.

[127] You were great.

[128] Okay.

[129] You're going to be I'm doing a lot of fact checking for me, Monica.

[130] I can't wait.

[131] Because I have vague memory.

[132] Her appetite has not been slaked lately.

[133] She's been feeling like there's not been enough facts to check.

[134] Today, because it's a memory play with Catherine Hahn.

[135] It's all, it's real cloudy.

[136] But yes, you were on that and you were great and he's fantastic.

[137] But at any rate, he was on Sam Harris, who's this neurobiologist or neuroscientist.

[138] And I wanted to know why he was into Brazilian jiu -jitsu because it was.

[139] just a little out of what I would have guessed his lane was.

[140] And he said, well, it's just fun.

[141] I'm like, well, sure, it's fun.

[142] And he goes, well, why do you ride motorcycles?

[143] And I go, well, I ride them because they're fun.

[144] But I also didn't have a dad around to get approval from.

[145] And I was trying to get, like, approval from men all around me. So I did anything that was daredevily that I thought men would approve of.

[146] And now I actually love it.

[147] But it is worthwhile knowing why I even did it to begin with.

[148] Yeah.

[149] You liked risk.

[150] Yes.

[151] Like proving myself, a rights of passage.

[152] You like that feeling.

[153] I do like that.

[154] Yeah.

[155] You like the feeling of like, of like the abyss, like falling.

[156] Yeah.

[157] In general, I have a hard time having fun unless there's a, there's a legitimate threat of danger involved.

[158] Then I'm like, then you have my attention and my focus and now I can have a lot of fun.

[159] We were just talking about I got a road bike this weekend, like an impulse bought a road bike, getting a tire for my boring bike.

[160] And I wrote it and I was like, oh, there's so much better than jogging because jogging you could pretty much close your eyes.

[161] There's no danger.

[162] But the bike, I was like, oh, I got to fucking pay attention.

[163] There's people opening doors.

[164] Tell me what a road bike is.

[165] Does it have a motor?

[166] No, it's a bicycle.

[167] Like a BMX?

[168] Not a BMX bike.

[169] Like, you see these clowns in the spandex riding around town with the helmets on and everything.

[170] They're on road bikes.

[171] They're going to drive 80 miles on that bicycle.

[172] That's awesome.

[173] So I got one of those and I rode to downtown LA and I was like, oh, Jesus, there's a lot going on.

[174] People are opening doors.

[175] People are getting over.

[176] They're seeing parking spots.

[177] Like, be aware.

[178] And then I was on fire.

[179] I was like, this is a good activity.

[180] I need to pay attention.

[181] You like that feeling.

[182] I grew up in Cleveland and there's a bunch of downtown Cleveland.

[183] Like there's a bunch of, you know, the Ohio River.

[184] There's a bunch of bridges down there.

[185] And there's a bunch of jackknife bridges.

[186] And when I was in high school, there was a lot, which is like, I think about this now, and especially as a parent, and I'm like, Jesus Christ.

[187] But in the winter, they would be up to let the boats go through.

[188] And there was a lot of, so there was like jackknife bridges that were like iced.

[189] Uh -huh.

[190] And we would climb them to the top with our boons.

[191] What are boons?

[192] That's a brand of boon's farms.

[193] Boones.

[194] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[195] Screw top wine.

[196] Like there would be, it was like some, there was a, there was a flavor called golden delicious apple that said, serve very cold.

[197] And it was like, so gross.

[198] Like the very was basically underlined.

[199] The taste would break down above 36 degrees.

[200] It was so vile.

[201] And then we would be so high and we would climb the top of an icy jackknife bridge and just hang out and look at the like terminal tower on an icy bridge after going to see like Fugazi.

[202] Did you like Fugazi?

[203] I loved.

[204] I love Fugazi.

[205] And back when you would, do you remember they would, you could not.

[206] Catherine, hold on.

[207] Yeah.

[208] I liked it loud.

[209] Can we?

[210] I did.

[211] I liked it loud.

[212] But I did.

[213] I liked pure, loud music.

[214] Waiting, waiting room.

[215] Did you just put waiting room on repeat?

[216] Listen.

[217] Cop shoot, cop.

[218] I mean, I did pixies.

[219] Oh, sure, love.

[220] Fucking loved.

[221] Uh -huh.

[222] The Poggs.

[223] How about the Poghs?

[224] Oh, Shane McGowan.

[225] I was nine inch nails.

[226] Oh, Trent Rezner.

[227] Uh -huh.

[228] Oh, what about when Ian McKay and Trent Resner, they had a project called Pailhead?

[229] Palehead.

[230] Did you know Pailhead?

[231] I did know pale head.

[232] I need to stop right now.

[233] Look into my eyes.

[234] Do you know how rare this would be that two actors in Hollywood and a boy and a girl would have this shared past?

[235] Listen, my first money that I made as an actor, I went right down to a store on Coventry Road in Cleveland, which was like kind of the punky little street.

[236] And I went to a store called Sunshine 2.

[237] Okay.

[238] And they sold drug paraphernalia and leather jackets.

[239] And I bought myself a motorcycle jacket.

[240] Oh, God.

[241] And it was just, you know, gross.

[242] But I wore it with my Catholic school uniform.

[243] And I thought I was so cool.

[244] And I was not cool.

[245] But I really, but maybe I was.

[246] It sounds like you were.

[247] 100%.

[248] But I thought I really loved, but I also liked like, like, but I really just like, loved the psychedelic furs.

[249] Oh, I loved, but I also loved like, I loved people.

[250] Bjork.

[251] Oh, I love Bjork.

[252] And I still fucking love Bjork.

[253] I fucking love you.

[254] What it was the name of that one album?

[255] Homogenics or whatever.

[256] Homogenics.

[257] I fell in love with a gal.

[258] Birthday when she was Oh, birthday is my single favorite song of all time.

[259] I mean, I don't want to cry thinking about it.

[260] Yes, she's five years old.

[261] Oh, my God.

[262] What does that song mean?

[263] Is it, is she getting molested in the tub?

[264] Oh my God.

[265] I don't think there's ever been a song I listened to on repeat more than birthday by.

[266] Your but it was hold on a second okay is it possible we would have got married if we met when we were 23 do you think I mean it's possible I feel like it's more than possible but maybe like likely but I mean listen I was I was not into well you know what though can I tell you something I also did date a team Suzuki motorcycle racer get out of my hat I'm not going to remember his name perfect he was he was He was not the brightest bulb.

[267] He didn't need to be.

[268] He did carry a very torn and he had a, he definitely was reading The Chronicles of Narnia and I was like, just tried to be like put the blinders on and be like, well, la, la, la, la, la, I didn't.

[269] I tried not to pay attention to it.

[270] And he picked me up with a fuckbush and 92 shirt on.

[271] I do remember that.

[272] Oh, okay.

[273] Was not thrilled about it.

[274] Didn't love it.

[275] I loved it.

[276] What did your dad do for a living or what does he be?

[277] My father, oh, gosh.

[278] I'm going to be reeling from this Fugazi thing for a long time.

[279] I love Fugazi.

[280] I have a couple questions before you go into father.

[281] Okay.

[282] That's going to get, that's going to get.

[283] That's where things are going to start as viling out of control.

[284] Yes.

[285] When you were climbing up the bridge.

[286] Did you like that or were you like, this is what we have, this is what we're doing.

[287] You were peer pressured.

[288] No. You liked it.

[289] I loved it.

[290] Yeah, that was, I was a little bit of the, um, instigator oh wow a little maverick this is surprising it is a huge revelation i'm glad i found this out after we were both married because again i really think if i had met a fellow actor female who was this deeply in the birthday i would have at least had to ask you to a movie or something there isn't a better song i want to listen to it right now should we pause this whole thing I kind of wanted to sit and cry.

[291] But for me, it's worth it.

[292] I just wonder how long you guys can go.

[293] Oh, I think two hours.

[294] Did you remember Echo and the Bunny Men?

[295] Loved Echo and the Bunny Men.

[296] Also associated with Susie and the Banshees in some capacity.

[297] I also love Susie the Banchise.

[298] Also, the breeders.

[299] I also loved fucking hole.

[300] Pardon my friend.

[301] Oh, yeah.

[302] You're allowed to say, you're allowed to say hole.

[303] Did you think you weren't allowed to say hole?

[304] I didn't think you could say hole.

[305] Wait, did you, did you like the movie?

[306] Did you like the movie Valley Girl?

[307] I'll punch you right.

[308] I'll punch you right through the wall if you love the Valley Girl.

[309] I did not fucking love Valley.

[310] You didn't.

[311] Okay.

[312] It had to end.

[313] It had to end.

[314] And here it ends.

[315] Okay.

[316] It combined my two favorite things.

[317] New Wave music and Nicholas Cage.

[318] Those were my like North stars.

[319] I did fucking wild and heart though my favorite movie of all time.

[320] Oh, absolutely.

[321] Wild and Heart was a game changer for me though.

[322] Wilder Heart also did you see the Andre the Giant documentary?

[323] We all saw it.

[324] We loved it.

[325] We loved it.

[326] How about when the little announcer guy, They were describing his flatulence, which I'm so glad they did for a whole 10 minutes.

[327] They dedicated 10 minutes of that movie.

[328] It's the way to my heart.

[329] And he goes, when Andre would take a fart, he would click.

[330] He said take a fart.

[331] Implying that the fart is so big, you have to parallel it with taking a dump.

[332] Yeah.

[333] He took the fart.

[334] Oh, my God.

[335] It's the best.

[336] Love Andre the Giant so much.

[337] Great documentary.

[338] Susie and the Banschies.

[339] Now we're back.

[340] And father.

[341] Dad, Dad, Dad, Dad, Dad, Dad.

[342] This is the best.

[343] Well, let me ask you something.

[344] Oh, I love this Tuesday.

[345] Because there were a couple, there were a couple entry points into New Wave music when we were kids.

[346] Yeah.

[347] A couple movies that were entry points.

[348] Like, I think for, by the time we were getting out of high school, singles became a movie that was entrance to the grunge scene.

[349] Yes.

[350] So you had exposure to all these great bands.

[351] Yes.

[352] But prior that you had Valley Girl, you had all the John Hughes movies, I guess.

[353] Yes, they had some good stuff.

[354] But what song made, I'll Stop the World Melt for you, famous?

[355] Modern English.

[356] I'll stop the world and melt.

[357] I wasn't that a John?

[358] Yeah, I think it was actually.

[359] I think it was.

[360] I'll find out which one.

[361] But that's an amazing.

[362] It wasn't Valley Girl.

[363] So for me, Valley Girl was like my education on all the new wave.

[364] Yeah, I was like.

[365] I mean, I remember seeing Blue Velvet and that was like, I remember, I mean, and this is like maybe an entree to family life.

[366] but I remember the opening of blue velvet was, I believe it was blue velvet where they, it starts on the family, like the perfect suburban house.

[367] And it goes, the camera goes down onto the flowers in the front yard, onto this rock.

[368] And then the rock lifts and you see like the maggots.

[369] And like it, and I just remember thinking like it was like the perfect like, you know, we, I grew up on this like, really sweet suburban street Catholic school my parents went to couples club wait what's a couple's club exactly exactly oh wow it was like no it was like you wanted to be kinky it was like it was like you know they had like it was the social thing that all the families would all the is it like a country club no it was just like the it was like the like a block party no it was like all the all the family all the parents that the of the kids that went to this Catholic school.

[370] Like it was like their social crap.

[371] I got you.

[372] There'd be like dinners and stuff.

[373] Yes.

[374] Okay.

[375] And it was just like basically an opportunity for them to just get like wasted.

[376] Sure.

[377] Sure.

[378] And do you think there was any bed, bed hopping in that circle?

[379] No. But I just think it was like a lot of covering up of like a lot of crazy dysfunction.

[380] Sure.

[381] Absolutely.

[382] Like madness.

[383] Yeah.

[384] And and it was like Catholic school was basically the cheapest private education.

[385] We grew up in Cleveland Heights, which was like the not as nice suburb to, like there was like a lot of kids were in Shaker Heights or there was like really fancy suburbs.

[386] And we were the not so nice suburb.

[387] My dad, to answer your question, we had moved.

[388] I was born outside of Chicago.

[389] We moved to Minnesota and then to Cleveland Heights when I was like four.

[390] Wow.

[391] Hold on a second.

[392] a clue here.

[393] So you started in Illinois, and then you went to Minnesota, and then you went to Ohio.

[394] Yeah.

[395] So what on earth industry could he have been in?

[396] Advertising.

[397] Advertisements.

[398] And he was, couldn't hold the jobs.

[399] Sure.

[400] Okay.

[401] Because he was mercurial or he hated authority or he had a drinking problem or I don't, it was not a drinking problem, but he couldn't, he was mercurial.

[402] Okay.

[403] Great.

[404] And he was, um, and could not.

[405] handle authority.

[406] Uh -huh.

[407] Okay.

[408] Was his name Dax?

[409] His name is Bill.

[410] Bill.

[411] And he is a beautiful, big personality.

[412] He, we moved to Cleveland when I was, yeah, when I was four.

[413] I remember, I have, that's like one of my earliest memories is looking into a mirror at my uncle's house and thinking I'm for today.

[414] Like I have, I remember that.

[415] Mm -hmm.

[416] Image of, I remember looking at myself and thinking that.

[417] I remember a bookmobile.

[418] Like it was, we were lived in so in the middle of nowhere that they didn't have libraries.

[419] We would have a, there was a, there was something called the bookmobile that was like a bus would come and you would check out books.

[420] A mobile library?

[421] Like once every two.

[422] Like in prison when they come by with the car.

[423] And my mom would be like, because she was so.

[424] that she would wait and wait to check out books.

[425] So books became like such an enormous part of our like my, and my life.

[426] Like I loved books were like when I was growing up, books were my everything.

[427] Like I escape.

[428] Little House on the Prairie was like my everything.

[429] Like I wanted to just be like I wanted to be Amish so badly because I. was worshipped that life.

[430] Yeah, what do you think about that appealed to you?

[431] Like this, was it the Spartanness of it?

[432] It was the simplicity.

[433] and I think, it was because I think also now looking back, it was because my home life was chaos.

[434] Uh -huh.

[435] And also because, and I know I'm a little all over the place, because I think my siblings and I a little bit were a little bit, surrogate spouses if you know what I mean oh sure uh -huh we had wait really quick did your parents stay married they stayed married until I was like 30 30 okay and then how many siblings two I'm the oldest you're the oldest and the older only girl only girl so two little brothers yeah okay and yes so you're your you're your dad's wife and your brothers or your mom's husband and my mom's husband and your mom's husband okay um and and you know my brother's wife brother's parents.

[436] Caretaker.

[437] Yeah, everybody.

[438] A lot of responsibility.

[439] And I think there was something in that life that was so simple that I was like that like a relationship to God.

[440] And then yes, that that was your job.

[441] You woke up.

[442] I'm fucking cleaned a barn and milked a cow.

[443] And then when the lights went down, it was time to go bed.

[444] Maybe read by a candle.

[445] Yeah, I would do my homework by candlelight.

[446] Really?

[447] Yeah, I would do my homework by candlelight.

[448] Because you fetishized that, that pure table.

[449] And my parents would be like, ah, so I would literally light a candle and do my homework by candlelight.

[450] I was such a good student, Dax.

[451] I was a crazy good too.

[452] Well, you got in a Northwestern, so my assumption is you must have done very well.

[453] My parents were like, if you can get in and get a scholarship, do it.

[454] So I like, I got myself into that and to grad school.

[455] I like, my, was all me because they didn't have money.

[456] And we lived, you and I both grew up around Amish people.

[457] I mean, they weren't in my backyard, but you could go to Amish country in a short drive.

[458] Yeah, my grandparents on this motel at the border of Indiana and Michigan.

[459] It was all in Amish country.

[460] So people were driving horse and buggy down the road all the time.

[461] Oh, my God, it was my first, like, sexual crushes with these Amish boys.

[462] It was like reverse witness.

[463] Reverse witness.

[464] I was like peeking through the bar and like, oh.

[465] You hardworking motherfucker.

[466] I was like so Harrison Ford.

[467] Loved them.

[468] Oh, wow.

[469] Loved it.

[470] Because they...

[471] I mean, I had the biggest crushes on these Amish boys.

[472] Well, okay, again, really quick.

[473] So if I can just...

[474] Loved them.

[475] This armchair cycle.

[476] I'll analyze you.

[477] I'm just, so let's just start with some basics.

[478] Dug my tea bag real fast.

[479] Some basics would be, yeah.

[480] Advertising is a very creative medium.

[481] It does attract because my mom for a couple years.

[482] Just trying to just harness this.

[483] Well, no. My mom also, she had worked for general owners for years.

[484] Yeah.

[485] And she worked at an ad agency for two years.

[486] And what she loved about it is the people that were so different from all the GM people.

[487] They were live wires.

[488] They were mercurial.

[489] They were passionate.

[490] They were creative.

[491] They did drugs.

[492] You know, there was the whole culture that went along with advertising.

[493] And if there were a field that couldn't be more polar opposite than advertising, it would be like churning butter and erecting a barn with your neighbors.

[494] Like was there's, was it something about it being the antithesis of your father that was appealing?

[495] that just seemed like steady and plotting and calm and you don't have I mean totally like I wanted a paw mm -hmm you know what I mean like I wanted that a rock yeah I wanted someone to be like yes half point wow so I'm you know what I mean yes you and you just hit something and I think maybe we probably both can bond on is that I quite often as a kid was put in charge of an adult's emotional stability.

[496] Like I was, my dad was, while he was still an alcoholic, breaking down and crying, I need to quit drinking and then crying on my brother and I shoulder.

[497] And it's like, I would be eight and he was 13 and we're like comforting an adult about his huge emotional issue, which we're not prepared to do.

[498] Right.

[499] And it's scary because you go, oh, the people that are supposed to be in charge, they're hanging on by a thread.

[500] That's a little scary.

[501] Terrified.

[502] And then mom, who I fucking adore, I couldn't love a human being more.

[503] Oh, my God.

[504] You know, every few years there's a divorce and there's a move out.

[505] And so you kind of go like, oh, okay, well, she doesn't have this all figured out either.

[506] Like, we're kind of like, we're at the whim of some variables here.

[507] And, yeah, just caring.

[508] for people as kids, it's the one thing I've bumped up against with my own kids.

[509] I don't care if they hear someone talking about any kind of politics.

[510] I don't agree with any of this stuff.

[511] But when the few times adults have forced my kids to comfort them because they don't have control their own emotions, I go, fuck this.

[512] No, you're out of my house.

[513] If you're an adult and you can't care for your shit, that's not my five -year -old's job.

[514] You know.

[515] Totally.

[516] Yeah.

[517] It really sets me off.

[518] Me too.

[519] That's a huge trigger for me. Yeah.

[520] Yeah.

[521] And maybe it's fine.

[522] Maybe it's cool that kids come from.

[523] I don't know.

[524] Maybe I'm wrong, but that sends me to like the moon and back.

[525] Oh, one time.

[526] Well, but one, there was one time and she didn't mean at this.

[527] I mean, she meant it in a sweet way, but I remember my daughter said, I'm your Band -Aid.

[528] And she meant it like, I'm going to cling to you today.

[529] But I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we're not, you're not, you're not at all, honey, like, let's find it.

[530] Like, and I, I had such a reaction to it.

[531] And, but, but I was like, Jesus.

[532] That's the only thing.

[533] It is weird that I said that they were also my crushes, but I, it is, that's a complicated part.

[534] But, you know, the paw, but the, the, the, the Amish boys were also my first crushes.

[535] But did that when you, uh, the boys you dated in high school or, or, or, no, there were total, like, rebels, right?

[536] Like I looked also because I, that's the irony, right?

[537] Yes.

[538] that you fall in love with.

[539] Well, because also that's high school.

[540] And I think that that's like your first.

[541] Like, you know, that makes total, I mean, that makes total sense to me. It's like, because I also was so, such a straight student.

[542] Like, I was always getting in trouble with the nuns.

[543] Like, I was such a pain in the ass at school.

[544] But there was nothing they could really do because I was such a good student.

[545] I was, because I was like, I was so committed to getting out.

[546] And I also really love learning.

[547] Like I loved school.

[548] And I really, I didn't want to.

[549] And I had some really great educators.

[550] Like I did love that school.

[551] I loved a single sex education.

[552] I had some great friends there.

[553] It was a really great and diverse school.

[554] The girls I met there were fantastic.

[555] like some of the like it was it was a it was an interesting liberal school like I loved it was those single sex schools can sometimes help people be friendly to each other and not competitive as much when you're not competing over the the affection of a dude right is it well it was like you weren't afraid to raise your hand and it was not it was not it was not uncool to be smart right you didn't have to hide your brain where I feel like especially maybe I think it's different now, but I guess like 20 years ago, it was, I feel like a lot of girls kind of hid their brain in school.

[556] Sure.

[557] And, um, because all of us boys were dumbasses.

[558] And it was not cool to be smart.

[559] You know what I mean?

[560] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[561] We've all been there.

[562] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body, aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[563] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[564] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[565] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[566] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[567] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[568] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[569] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon Music.

[570] What's up guys?

[571] It's your girl Kiki and my podcast is back with a new season and let me tell you it's too good and I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[572] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[573] And I don't mean just friends.

[574] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[575] The list goes on.

[576] So follow, watch and listen to Baby.

[577] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[578] What was mom doing?

[579] Was she employed too?

[580] She worked as a, she was a at home mom until we were a little bit older and then, you know, like an elementary school and then, and she was like a really fabulous, like, she walked us to school every day.

[581] She would bring us like hot lunch.

[582] Like she would make us lunch and bring it to school.

[583] Like I mean, I remember her being really involved.

[584] Like, I had a really rich emotional life.

[585] Like I loved getting deep in to pretend, you know, like whatever.

[586] If I wanted to, if my dolls were, like she made it, I remember when she was, what's, what quit smoking for Lent and she was so and her project was to make like to decorate a dollhouse for me and I'm telling you I my daughter has this dollhouse now and it is like incredibly like detail like I mean the detail when she was quitting smoking sure she put all that all the energy oh my god now it's a little haunted though I don't know if you've seen hereditary but it feels like that there's like a dollhouse in that horror movie and it kind of has that vibe.

[587] Anyway, there's a dollhouse, the Tony Fulette's character.

[588] Sharper objects.

[589] There's a dollhouse.

[590] Oh, there is too.

[591] Sharp objects.

[592] There's something about a dollhouse, guys.

[593] Yeah, it's creepy.

[594] Yeah.

[595] It is inherently creepy for some reason.

[596] Hereditary.

[597] But anyway, but then she got a job as an administrator at a Montessori school.

[598] Interestingly, we never went to a Montessori school, but she worked in administration there, and she continued, I'm just retired last year.

[599] And, yeah.

[600] And was her emotional ups and downs just because tied to your father being a little unpredictable?

[601] And so it was a little bit like camps.

[602] So I always, you know what I mean?

[603] Like we always were on kind of my mom's side.

[604] Yeah.

[605] And he was like the bad guy.

[606] It was I felt like back to that that blue velvet metaphor, it was like it definitely did feel like we, I had to put on a. like an armor of normalcy to the world like we all did like we became all kind of professional liars uh -huh so we were had this like kind of like couples beautiful veneer total beautiful Catholic school veneer like which I'm sure all all a lot all of those fucking families by the way probably the majority of all people yeah yeah and like had this had this like all because we were so concerned with everyone else thinks of us and like underneath it like the maggots Yeah, yeah, sure.

[607] And like, or whatever, the lies.

[608] Termites just eating the foundation.

[609] Yes, exactly.

[610] And like we just, you know, we had like, you know, we really isolated ourselves a little bit.

[611] And we all have like kind of had like a annoying kind of anxiety because there was a lot going on that no one talked about.

[612] Like no one had therapy.

[613] No one talked about.

[614] No one really talked feelings.

[615] Like no one could really say like, I love you.

[616] Really?

[617] No. Even mom.

[618] She could.

[619] No, she could.

[620] Actually, she could.

[621] Yeah, she could.

[622] But there was always like a little like there was a, no one really could really be vulnerable.

[623] Did dad think if he said, I love you, you were going to have a power over him or something?

[624] No, there was just like, it was just everybody was really afraid to be vulnerable.

[625] Uh -huh.

[626] Because of everyone's own Mishigas.

[627] Yeah.

[628] Like I was, I've been doing this like work lately or research on inherited trauma.

[629] Okay.

[630] which is like shit that has come from that's not yours that is like generations past right that is well the black community you don't have to dig too deep into that to see like but even just like personal family inherited trauma like your father's shit that he got from his father from his father from his father from his father that you're holding that you don't even know if it's about like your relationship to money your relationship to ambition to ambition to or power like shit that you don't know you're holding that could be generations past sure that is so i only bring up the black community because a lot of people go like well we haven't had slavery since 1860 and it's like yeah but those people were alive three generations ago so fucking luci and that's what i mean is you get real like that's real no one ever woke up out of that context exactly jews like that's real we don't talk about jewish people in here but anyways continue and we don't say whole and we don't say whole you're just jewish and whole you can't say But, and that's for real.

[631] And so it's been an awesome process of just being like, realizing that I was, that shit was, I was tied to shit that's not mine.

[632] Uh -huh.

[633] That I don't need.

[634] Yeah.

[635] And maybe even wasn't theirs.

[636] That even wasn't theirs.

[637] Yeah.

[638] Everyone's kind of a victim in it.

[639] Yes.

[640] It's like a cold.

[641] It's like when someone, you get a cold and you're like, what asshole brought a cold over to my house?

[642] But you're like, well, someone gave that asshole the cold.

[643] Yeah.

[644] No one went shopping for a cold.

[645] cold.

[646] No one shopping for trauma.

[647] Yes.

[648] Or any of this stuff.

[649] Actually, it doesn't even matter.

[650] Right.

[651] That it's just right now.

[652] Yeah.

[653] Like it really is so interesting to talk about it even like.

[654] So what I think where I was going with that is it is no, and I was talking about how we kind of became, we were all kind of professional liars because we were hiding these secrets as I think we all do.

[655] in my case, in a general way, there was like a lot of, in a general way, not telling anybody's story, but there was like a lot of some profound addiction and mental illness.

[656] Like, there's a lot going on.

[657] But for me, in my story, I became the safest performing.

[658] Like, I could tell the truth when I was acting in the weirdest way.

[659] Like I felt like when I in kindergarten took an acting glass, that became like the holiest place for me. The place you were allowed to tell the truth.

[660] That and reading, like became the place where I could tell the truth.

[661] Like those on, I started at the Cleveland Playhouse, like this little, like this theater became like that was literally my like became like, oh, I feel the safest with these weirdos.

[662] It's like they don't know anything.

[663] I don't know anything about them.

[664] I just feel like I trust them.

[665] I trust these weirdos.

[666] Well, can I just say probably maybe why is you had the same goal as those weirdos, which is so rare to have in a family that's dysfunctional.

[667] You'll never have the same goal.

[668] It's like dad wants to do this thing.

[669] Mom wants to do this.

[670] Your little brothers want to do that thing.

[671] But you come meet these strangers and like weirdly your goals to tell the story together.

[672] And it's a unique.

[673] even have that experience, but I can see where it's a unique thing to go like, wait, we have the same selfish interest and it's, it's going to work in concert.

[674] That's exciting.

[675] Yes.

[676] And so I've, my, my like journey intimacy wise, I get real close and then can like, because I, I love a cast.

[677] I get real.

[678] I love, I love that feeling.

[679] The little family, the band camp feeling.

[680] And then I can like, you can cut it.

[681] You can drop it.

[682] You can.

[683] but I and I love like I mean I you know from the Midwest like fucky if you don't pick up your clothes like if you I'm still like that I'm like I am drives me crazy if actors don't put their hang their clothes up oh sure sure like entitlement yes like I like I'm still from like an ensemble feeling of like no you pick your clothes up you take care of your props like you know I'm I'm still from that feeling of like we're making this together like the boom person is as important as you are as as as important like it's It's all about creating that, like, that feeling, like that church feeling of, like, making.

[684] So, anyway.

[685] Well, no wonder you hate talk shows because you are forced to lie again and present an image of yourself.

[686] God damn.

[687] And isn't it funny?

[688] Like, we just start this conversation about talk shows, but there isn't a story where you and I can tell that weirdly can't find its way back to childhood.

[689] I know.

[690] It's frustrating as it is.

[691] it seems so cliche but something still at 45 you go on a talk show and what you're really bumping up against is that you have to a little bit embellish or put a presentable five minute version of yourself on display that America will love and applaud yes and you go no I did that for 18 years I don't ever want to do that again I'm going to come out on the couch fucking shit my pants swear and then blow it and get the fuck out of there because that's me so want to do that right but it's but but again it's just your shit because no talk show is a place to go and entertain the fuck out of everyone for five minutes and then go about your merry way and you can shoot your pants on the ride home or do whatever is true to Catherine but but so I have similar things that they're they're so outweighed in my head the thing with like my authority thing it's like no I went away I went along with three different stepdad's plans and I was forced to and for the rest of my life I will not be a party to a shitty plan and I'm insufferable at times because of it you know and I do have to be a part of some people's bad plans occasionally.

[692] It's just that goes along with the job.

[693] But I want to get to your lovers.

[694] Because I'm curious, you could be opposed to your father's personality at times.

[695] Yeah.

[696] And then yet find yourself dating your father like 10 times in a row because you can mistake familiarity for love, can't you?

[697] Like when you meet somebody and it feels familiar, you can mistake familiar for butterflies or because there's comfort in familiarity.

[698] So you can mistake it for security.

[699] And you might even think like, oh, it's love at first sight.

[700] And then only upon reflection, you're like, you can go like, oh, you know what it was.

[701] It just felt familiar.

[702] My butterflies were familiarity.

[703] Did you end up dating any crazy guys?

[704] Yeah.

[705] Yeah.

[706] You don't have to name them, but if they're famous, please do you?

[707] No, I mean, I, listen, I've been with my hubby for basically 25 years.

[708] Have you really?

[709] 25 years I mean we've been so since you were 20 yeah I mean we've been I mean we had we had a I mean we got married we eloped on our 50 on our 10 year anniversary we had like so our first you know we definitely were like in and out burger the first 10 years okay um Ethan's his name yeah yeah and um we eloped to big sir okay that's a very like uh spiritual place to get it's a vortex Yeah, brah.

[710] We're going back out there again in a couple weeks.

[711] I bet you are.

[712] So then doesn't really work because you haven't had a string of.

[713] No, I worked it out beforehand.

[714] What's he like?

[715] Well, he, you know, we met like, we met freshman year of college at Northwestern.

[716] I was dating someone back in Cleveland.

[717] He was, he's from Seattle.

[718] He was wearing a seahorse necklace.

[719] Ethan or the guy from Cleveland?

[720] No, Ethan.

[721] Okay.

[722] And he said it was because seahorses were one of the only animals in the animal kingdom or the male carry the young.

[723] And I was like, fuck you.

[724] I was so annoyed.

[725] That's a red flag for me. I was so annoyed.

[726] I was so annoyed by it.

[727] Yeah.

[728] Oh, you're that good.

[729] You want to carry the young, bro?

[730] I was so annoyed.

[731] And then later, of course.

[732] but he um did he carry your children and he carried my children oh my god that's awesome yeah which was so amazing yeah they gestated in ethan yeah oh my god i know i heard it takes longer in a man it's like 12 months gestation he's still carrying them he's still got our four year old in him he's in fourth grade right now um and like it you know it took a second and we it just like what was he majoring in he was in radio tv film radio tv film okay And, yeah, we just, like, fell deep in it really fast.

[733] Oh, really?

[734] Yeah.

[735] Which could also be like a, uh, too fast.

[736] Potential, yeah.

[737] And then we both were kind of like, damn it, because it was like, we were like, pretty young to find your soul.

[738] And it was fiery.

[739] How did you navigate going all through your 20s with a single lover?

[740] It was, like, awful, but awesome.

[741] We moved to New York together.

[742] We, like, we, you know, we got our first apart.

[743] I remember we went to um um oh it's like crazy we like oh the whole thing was so dumb like we was so romantic like we went like I remember we got our first apartment we had we waited at the like it was back when they had like one hour photo and we had to like get our pictures developed of our apartment like send to our parents like it was so crazy and we were waiting to get them developed and we didn't realize that the one hour photo was the base of the empire state building and we had never seen it before and so we like we like we went and we like got we like took the elevator up to the top of like made out like crazy oh my god i mean it was the whole thing was like isn't this you've got mail the story of you got mail it's you got mail i'm telling you the story if you got mail what if we came to find out all of your stories what if monica back back she goes i have some alarmed news the father she's describing is from boyhood the and you just went through everything And we found out like waiting for Garth or what was that when we were kids waiting for Garth or waiting for Guthr?

[744] Running on FT is the story.

[745] The world according to Garth like just a sociopath.

[746] So and then like we, I mean it's been like it merit this is like it's a journey.

[747] And I'm like I do some pretty intense stuff on camera.

[748] Absolutely.

[749] And he's like we are in deeply private.

[750] humans.

[751] And I am so, we work our asses off.

[752] And I'm crazy proud of us.

[753] Yeah.

[754] Now, I fell in love at 21.

[755] Yeah.

[756] And I was with that girl for nine years.

[757] And right when we met, I was like, listen, I was cheating on my girlfriend and you were cheating on your boyfriend.

[758] Yeah.

[759] Yeah.

[760] We met that way too.

[761] Oh, good.

[762] It's a good way to start things.

[763] Kind of.

[764] No, it's terrible.

[765] It's a horrible way.

[766] But I just said, I'm going to be a realist here.

[767] I'm in love with you.

[768] I want to do this.

[769] We are not making it to 30 without ever cheating on each other.

[770] It's just I, and I go, I'm not going to have that expectation from you.

[771] Yeah.

[772] Because I want to stay with you.

[773] And I don't think we'll make it.

[774] We didn't think we would.

[775] We also, no, we really did not think we would.

[776] And then we just kept like, we just kept renewing it.

[777] Really?

[778] Yeah.

[779] We just kept asking a question.

[780] No, we're figuring it out.

[781] Like, we are definitely not the same people we were when we got married.

[782] And then we just keep asking ourselves if we, if we still want to be in it.

[783] Do you have you guys ever done couples therapy?

[784] All the time.

[785] Oh, great.

[786] Yeah.

[787] Us too.

[788] All the time.

[789] And we still respect and love each other like deeply.

[790] And I love watching him become, um, I just love watching him grow up.

[791] Mm -hmm.

[792] Like I like, it's like crazy watching him become an old man. Let's just say it's really hard to go from 20 to 25.

[793] Any two people going from 20 to 25, they're going to grow.

[794] But the odds of them growing at the same pace are nearly impossible.

[795] No, and it's not.

[796] We haven't.

[797] To be patient while somebody's not joining you.

[798] There's been years where it's been like bad.

[799] Years.

[800] Thank God you're from Ohio.

[801] We also get.

[802] If you're from L .A., you'd have been like two months.

[803] I'm like, oh, this isn't working.

[804] But we also have like, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[805] And we also have like, um, yeah, we have.

[806] We have jobs where we can like, I feel create, like I feel like my, like I have soul fulfillment in ways that I think is helpful to.

[807] Like I feel like I'm creatively like turned on.

[808] Mm -hmm.

[809] Horny for your job.

[810] That's what we'd call it.

[811] Totally horny for my job.

[812] Exactly.

[813] So, and that is no small thing because if I, if I didn't, I really do feel like that, that is a huge thing.

[814] Yeah.

[815] And so.

[816] Well, it can be good.

[817] or and bad though, right?

[818] It's a double -edged sword.

[819] So in one way, you could be getting your cup really filled up at your job on location, which is awesome.

[820] Yeah.

[821] But at the same time, now you could be inadvertently comparing that feeling and experience to real life.

[822] So it's also dicey, right?

[823] It's like it's a great outlet and it's great to fill you up.

[824] And then all of a sudden, you're starting to compare your normal real life being married, which is just like anyone else's.

[825] And it's an unfair comparison.

[826] Well, I wouldn't know.

[827] I wouldn't say it's like a. anyone else's.

[828] I would say it's like ours.

[829] I guess I mean any two people that are married, it's only so exciting.

[830] Yes.

[831] It's not like you wake up and your partner has got like a button nose one day and then looks like Carl Mold and the next.

[832] It's like it's what it is.

[833] Dude, we haven't had a bathroom door in 25 years.

[834] There you go.

[835] Yeah.

[836] It's not there.

[837] We've seen it.

[838] It's on.

[839] Yeah.

[840] Yeah.

[841] Like there's no. There's no like, oh.

[842] Food poisoning.

[843] Oh my God.

[844] No, it is Hamroids.

[845] Sure.

[846] Last night, I was upstairs and he just literally went, found the diarrhea.

[847] And I was like, what are you talking about?

[848] And it was like, just letting you know.

[849] And I was like, so pissed off by him saying, just letting you know.

[850] Because it sounded so passive aggressive.

[851] Because I was just like, tell me what the fuck are you talking about.

[852] Like, who's diarrhea?

[853] Yeah.

[854] And it was our dogs.

[855] Okay.

[856] But he was just, he just was funny.

[857] No, he was just pissed that he found diarrhea and he was cleaning it up while I was upstairs.

[858] But I was like, you could just say, like, why did you say, found the diarrhea just letting you know?

[859] Like, why couldn't have been more specific?

[860] That's what I mean by that's every married couple's reality.

[861] And then you go away someplace and you pretend to be another person.

[862] Love it.

[863] Thank God.

[864] I'm only saying it's a double edge because, yes, thank God you have this great.

[865] I don't know.

[866] You'd be out the door.

[867] I don't know.

[868] I'm cheesy.

[869] Totally.

[870] I would be fucking gone.

[871] No, but like he knew, but you know, he knew we both have, we both understand and are committed today to just like know this like what we're in for.

[872] Like he knows and gets what he's gotten himself into.

[873] And I know and I get what I've gotten myself into.

[874] And I'm like, I am so grateful.

[875] I'm so grateful to know somebody that well.

[876] Like I want to cry thinking about it.

[877] It's no small thing.

[878] Isn't it also amazing to, because this was the thing that I had the hardest time about when Breene and I broke up, which was, oh, no, the person I lived in this one -bedroom apartment with for 10 years is the only person who really knows me. And I'm now, for the rest of my life, going to be with someone who already met me. having like succeeded on some level and they won't know that 10 years struggle and the ups and downs and having fun with no money and just that was heartbreaking to me that I had lost the person I shared that period of my life with and I imagine it must feel so cool to have gone and gotten the shitty apartment in New York and now to be living down the road from me and going oh we did all this together yeah we witnessed each other do this whole thing isn't that kind of beautiful yeah And then to know like Like he knows the real you Not the Kimmel 5 minute version No yeah he I mean we've we've seen some shit Yeah yeah Well what the hardest thing for me Is the like the mirror of it Is like when you know somebody that Well sometimes it feels like I'm looking in a mirror Like it's hard to see Him It's like and you only see him as a part of your combined whole yeah yeah that is and it's the like and and i think he would say the same thing and i can't remember the author and this is like shell silverstein shell silversine the missing piece the missing piece i love the missing piece but the um the i think it's called uh oh god it's about oh shit the mating Oh, but it's about how monogamy and desire are incompatible.

[879] And it's true.

[880] Sure, sure.

[881] Like, it's like, how do you, but that biologically, it's like monogamy, you need to feel safe.

[882] You need to feel secure.

[883] You need to feel, all these things that, like, desire is like danger.

[884] It's feeling threat.

[885] It's feeling, like, unsafe.

[886] It's feeling all the things that are the exact.

[887] opposite.

[888] And so it's like, how do you, how do you find that bridge to keep monogamy like, anyway, it's like it's.

[889] That's why Chris and I only have sex on a motorcycle that's going over 120.

[890] We got to feel like there's a real threat of death.

[891] We're going to install a jackknife bridge in our backyard.

[892] Well, it is tricky.

[893] And I think I was hung up on that a lot in my early life that I majored in anthropology.

[894] I can just tell you just certainly we did not live with monogamy.

[895] majored in anthropology.

[896] That's so awesome.

[897] I think I had the most nudity in all the majors.

[898] Oh, sure, sure, sure.

[899] But I can tell you with certainty that of the 150 ,000 years we've lived here, for over 140 ,000, we were not monogamous.

[900] That's just a fact.

[901] We were, you know, whether it was polyandry or it was a guy with 12 wives, that's just how it went.

[902] And I would get hung up on that.

[903] But it's not unlike the social contract theory, which is like you give up some.

[904] rights to join this society and then there's a bunch of benefits of the society.

[905] There's a guy who specializes in shoe fixing.

[906] So great.

[907] You get your shoes fixed and that's going to cost you being able to walk around naked and take a shit wherever you want.

[908] You know, it's all, you know, it's all a trade off.

[909] I love that it keeps going back to just like taking a shit wherever you want.

[910] Do you love?

[911] I love poo poo.

[912] I did too.

[913] Yeah.

[914] The foundation of my best friend Aaron Weekly and I was just built on poop from the time was 12 years old.

[915] It's still the funniest thing to me. Yeah, poop.

[916] it's just really funny and it's scary you don't want to touch anyone's poop you don't want to you know there's some threat to it the stakes are high with poop your your husband found diarrhea and it's like it immediately gave him an emotional response yeah a heightened response it's hard to get a heightened response in real life anymore you throw some diarrhea on the rug you're gonna see someone wake up like better or worse don't you think also ultimately just maturity wise and being a married person and I'm a married person like I mean don't you think like maturity wise at a certain point it's like well I don't know a dick's a vagina's vagina like don't you think like at a certain point it's like but again come on guys I think it starts with being really honest about what appeals to you about sex so what really appeals to me about sex is approval your brain is different than your it's the approval I really want approval I want to make someone happy and for them to tell me I made them happy and so if I've done it to that person already, the approval high is missing.

[917] That's for me the hiccup.

[918] But I think it's different for other people.

[919] Like some guys like prostitutes.

[920] I can't relate to that because paying someone to act like they like me would would defeat what I'm after in the sex relationship.

[921] So I think it's it's per person.

[922] And so I'm better off trying to treat my approval junkiness than I am my horniness because the horniness is really coming from the approval junkiness.

[923] And I can't treat it downstream.

[924] I've got to kind of try to treat it at the mouth of the river, you know.

[925] So I don't know what sex is for you or for Ethan or anyone else, but I do think a lot of the getting through it starts with understanding what it is that you like about it because it's inevitably not going to be filled by a long -term partner after year four.

[926] That same charge, whatever the thing is for you is probably dissipated.

[927] So you need a different.

[928] thing.

[929] Now, to your point.

[930] Mating in captivity.

[931] I think that's the name of it.

[932] Oh, we got it.

[933] Mating and captivity.

[934] Yeah.

[935] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[936] That's great.

[937] Okay, great.

[938] Not in the wild.

[939] Not in captivity.

[940] But to your point, the, the analogy I often make to guys about their wives is my hand is not attractive.

[941] Look at my hand.

[942] It's not hot.

[943] And I've been fucking this hand since I was 12.

[944] And I'm going to fuck this hand until the day I die.

[945] Okay.

[946] So attraction is really not the prerequisite ingredient to me having a great analogy it is in a weird way it's like you can overthink it and I have friends that are like oh her toes are this or that I'm like her toes are this totally totally totally totally totally totally how long have you been fucking your hand that's a great analogy yes yeah anyway but I've never looked at my hand and thought this hand doesn't raise my status this hand isn't flattering when I'm out in public okay these are things guys put on their partners is like is this extension of me good for my presenting image and ego and status that's where it gets dicey but you don't evaluate your hand you just go oh I want to fuck this hand because I need to get this over with and move on to the next thing and just you're layering on all this stuff that is unrelated to sex sex not a relationship no but when guys are or women are falling out of love with their partner physically I think a lot they'd be stupid to just think that they're evaluating what the person looks like in the bedroom it's really about them being out to dinner and their buddy there's but their buddy has a like a 10 trophy wife and then they're like oh my wife's not you know it's all ego stat it's like it's just very layered it's very layered and I feel like I think a lot of people throw out the baby with the bathwater is too fast like I think there's there's some there's moments that happen that I think in any long term relationship that you can that I think people that I think people jump ship way too fast.

[947] I feel like it's hard to be optimistic in the down times.

[948] It's very hard.

[949] But I've, I'm really, I'm proud of us in this particular relationship, my husband and I for, um, because there is so much, so much on the other side of those moments that, um, is so much for us in this particular, in our relationship that is like so much deeper and more profound than, um, fucking your hand.

[950] talking your hand yeah okay so thank you that was delicious for me stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare you go to northwestern you major in acting and then you go to yale uh well no i go to new york no you go to yale so you go to yale everyone goes in new york who hasn't been in new york very few people have been to yell how do you get how do you end up at yell i i auditioned and i got a scholarship and i got myself in And I got, I accrued a shit ton of loans.

[951] Okay.

[952] And it was an acting program.

[953] Yeah, it was in, yeah, an MFA.

[954] How did you come to meet Tim Cring?

[955] Tim Cring.

[956] That's a rough name for me. Say it again?

[957] I'm sorry, just when you see it in writing K -R -I -N -G.

[958] Cring, Kring, Kring, Chris Kringle.

[959] Tim Kringle.

[960] Just think Chris Kringle.

[961] Okay.

[962] Tim Kringle.

[963] Kring.

[964] He, well, no, I was at a, it was a, I did, there's a couple things happening.

[965] It was, I was, I did it, first I did a show when I was a child called Hickory Hideout.

[966] Love it.

[967] And I was, that was in Cleveland.

[968] Very close to Hickory on the Prairie or they had the show, the little house on the prairie.

[969] Nothing like it.

[970] It's in the world.

[971] Hickory Hollow.

[972] Hickory Hidow.

[973] Oh, Hickory Hidow.

[974] And there was two talking squirrels on it called Natso and Shirley Squirley.

[975] Okay.

[976] I played a girl named Jenny.

[977] Shelly squirrely.

[978] Not so and Shirley.

[979] And then I had to ask a little owl question.

[980] and so his name was Noad Owl.

[981] And so I'd be like, I'd be like, I don't want to get braces.

[982] And Noah Dahl would talk me through it.

[983] Like a Mr. Rogers tied.

[984] Orthodontia is a great way to straighten out your teeth and better your chances of gaining employment.

[985] It's the first thing people see when they look at you as your big bright smile.

[986] Don't be afraid of braces.

[987] Orthodontia.

[988] Also, check out Doug's orthodontia on Main Street.

[989] There's probably some tie -ins, right?

[990] Like, spot on.

[991] Like, not in any way in exaggeration.

[992] Like I saw an episode.

[993] I think, talk about an imprint.

[994] I love people's smiles.

[995] There was also an ad in Cleveland for something called the sun pressed that was like this.

[996] The sun will come out on Thursday.

[997] Okay.

[998] Anyway, so there, okay, so anyway, then I did something called the Williamstown Theater Festival in the summers.

[999] And then that was, uh, anyway.

[1000] That's fancy.

[1001] It is.

[1002] Well, no, I mean, I was putting up sets for a while.

[1003] Okay.

[1004] Well, don't brag.

[1005] Which I'm like, why would they do that?

[1006] They gave us like, we would get like wildly stone and then they gave us nothing, no food except like, you know, it would just, they would give us like Neko Wafers and just macchita's.

[1007] Or those crummy rectangle ones that have peanut butter and cracker.

[1008] Yes.

[1009] Yeah, and then like 80 pack at Costco.

[1010] Yeah, like makitas and then just like put together sets and then everyone, inevitably someone would just like trash a kneecap.

[1011] Again, you got through all that monogamous.

[1012] You're away at this camp.

[1013] I know.

[1014] Isn't that just a fuck fast?

[1015] Those things?

[1016] Yes, but we would just be doing it all.

[1017] Like we were just like constantly figuring out different ways to do it.

[1018] All right.

[1019] Outdoors.

[1020] Indoor.

[1021] Yes.

[1022] On doors.

[1023] Mad at each other doing it.

[1024] Pissed off.

[1025] Jealous.

[1026] Doing it.

[1027] Always jealous.

[1028] Someone was always mad.

[1029] Okay.

[1030] Oh, wow.

[1031] Mad watching someone doing a play.

[1032] Oh, man. Pissed off.

[1033] doing it.

[1034] And start giving a hand job or something.

[1035] Pissed off.

[1036] Take it out on them.

[1037] Yes.

[1038] This is exciting.

[1039] I think you guys should write a book.

[1040] But take me to Tim Cring.

[1041] Isn't that the first chapter in working professionally?

[1042] Professionally was a show called Crossing Jordan.

[1043] Yeah.

[1044] It was a medical procedural.

[1045] I played the grief counselor in the morgue.

[1046] Uh -huh.

[1047] And her name was Lily Lebowski.

[1048] Counseling dead in the morgue.

[1049] In the morgue.

[1050] There's grief counselors in the morgue?

[1051] Nope.

[1052] But I played it.

[1053] And I was.

[1054] I would counsel anyone that came in to mourn anyone that had died.

[1055] Okay.

[1056] So someone was like, I got to identify the body.

[1057] And then you step in.

[1058] And I would just be like, so it was me opposite a guest actor who had to just sob.

[1059] Oh, wow.

[1060] So it was me with like a lot of fake tattoos counseling.

[1061] Oh.

[1062] Don't you feel bad for those day players who've got to come in?

[1063] They have no, they have no ramp up.

[1064] And they just got action ball.

[1065] Action.

[1066] Every time I see a scene in one of those shows, I feel so bad for those people.

[1067] But they were all like, I mean, I was.

[1068] I would just, it was like a lesson in just sending them love and also just like, I was talking about this recently.

[1069] Like, I feel like that show to me was just a lesson in just denying what was happening.

[1070] Because it was like, I just had, you just had to just deny what was happening.

[1071] Yeah, yeah.

[1072] Just like denying just like corpses breathing and just like fluttering eyelids.

[1073] Like I coughing.

[1074] And just like, just a lot of like sweet Jerry O 'Connell just like looking at me serious with his stomach rumbling.

[1075] I was like, we're in a serious scene and his stomach would just be grumbling.

[1076] I'm going to be like, eat something.

[1077] Yeah.

[1078] I love him so much.

[1079] Always taking his shirt off in every scene.

[1080] Yeah, he is, um, fun day to day.

[1081] Oh, I love him.

[1082] Yeah, he seems awesome.

[1083] So when you, um, started on that show.

[1084] And you're working and you're making a paycheck.

[1085] That's great.

[1086] Yeah, paid off like that all the, hefty yelled at and everything else.

[1087] Um, do you have in your mind who you want to be?

[1088] Like, is there an actor you're like, oh, that's the career I want?

[1089] I mean, at that point, I was like, um...

[1090] Be Arthur?

[1091] Be Arthur.

[1092] I just, I only want to say that because she's so physically unique.

[1093] I can't, it would be so weird to hear an actress that didn't look anything like her to say that that was.

[1094] Always.

[1095] If I was like the guy from the Adams family or whatever, lurch.

[1096] Always.

[1097] She's a goddess.

[1098] She was.

[1099] She is.

[1100] Is she with us?

[1101] Oh, fuck.

[1102] Anyways.

[1103] I don't know.

[1104] Okay.

[1105] Let's move right.

[1106] past that.

[1107] I hope she's with us.

[1108] I loved her.

[1109] Help us Monica.

[1110] Monica.

[1111] God.

[1112] So I'm sorry, I interrupted you.

[1113] Who was it that you?

[1114] Was it dramatic or comedic?

[1115] Oh, your, your aspirations.

[1116] Oh, no, it's mostly I think it was mostly dramatic, but I was finding myself like, um, uh, all of a sudden kind of getting more comedic parts.

[1117] Like, when I was at Yale, I was all, and even at Northwestern, it was like, I was always the class, I was always like the always kind of like, fucking around off stage but when we were doing it I was more I was always cast never as the on to know like I was always like grandma but I the B. Arthur roll totally you kind of nailed it but never really or you know like most but I I never really I didn't know I didn't quite know what was happening I was like obsessed with Kate Blanchett at that moment.

[1118] She's probably a pound for pound my favorite female actor.

[1119] When I saw that, Elizabeth, I was like, who are you?

[1120] She's a beast.

[1121] A beast.

[1122] I mean, I remember seeing a movie called, like, one of my favorite performances of all time is Gene Rollins and a woman under the influence.

[1123] And I think that's my favorite performance.

[1124] That's a movie or a play?

[1125] It's a movie by John Cassavetes.

[1126] It's her and Peter Falk play a husband and wife.

[1127] and they shot it in their home.

[1128] And it's so raw and just it's her performance is like it's my favorite acting.

[1129] I'll have to watch that.

[1130] It's heartbreaking and Peter Falk is bananas good.

[1131] It's a woman who's like losing it.

[1132] And he's trying to pretend that she's not and he's so in love with her.

[1133] And she comes home from a mental hospital and he tries he has a welcome home party for her.

[1134] and their friends and she's clearly not okay and not ready to be home, but he's trying to pretend that she's okay.

[1135] Yeah.

[1136] Oh, my God.

[1137] So anyway, that's a tangent, but that, I think.

[1138] Can I make a prediction right now?

[1139] Yeah.

[1140] I'm going to name three movies I think you love.

[1141] Royal Tannen Bombs.

[1142] Oh.

[1143] Squid and a whale.

[1144] Oh.

[1145] I'm going to stop there.

[1146] So what I think about those movies and the one you just described, it weirdly becomes a litmus test of the person's childhood, whether they enjoyed it or not.

[1147] So the fact that you were attracted to that type of movie and love that type of movie says to me that you can relate to that chaos and it's not terrifying.

[1148] So like boyhood, I absolutely love, even though it was my childhood.

[1149] Like that was my childhood.

[1150] And I watched it and I loved it because I was like, oh, they got it right.

[1151] Oh, I remember feeling that exact way.

[1152] But for other people, squid in the way, I was like, it was too off putting.

[1153] What the kid's jerking off and he's putting is come on the books and like, it's just too much.

[1154] But if your childhood somewhat resembled that, yeah it feels yeah there's something about it yeah that like I just love it or the royal tandemums talk about someone they were trying to have a perfect facade she was what a psychiatrist and the family had to be perfect and they were all fucking lunatics absolutely and you're like oh yeah yeah I got yeah I also loved I mean it's one of my favorite and I know it's pop I know that's got that like name on it but I also love E .T is one of my favorite films a whole time uh -huh uh -huh It's like an opera to me. Like every moment of it is like, it is like I could be anywhere and I see that red hoodie and I hear that sound and I do like, that movie kills me. How about Drew Barrymore in that movie?

[1155] I mean, that really should go down in the annals as one of the best performances of all time acting too.

[1156] Did you see this Spielberg documentary?

[1157] No. The punk rock in me was just like, I can't celebrate this guy anymore.

[1158] I know.

[1159] I should see it.

[1160] He's a genius.

[1161] He is, but I know what you mean.

[1162] But there are some close -up shots of him where I'm, where you're, of his face where you're like, God damn it.

[1163] I wish that they would like just celebrate a woman's face that close up at that age.

[1164] Like, I don't know.

[1165] You just to see his like blackheads that close up in those lines and you're like, why can't you just put a camera in a woman's face that close up with that age?

[1166] Yeah, well, I would throw up.

[1167] That's why.

[1168] I mean, like, why not?

[1169] I know.

[1170] It says what a, what an unfair thing.

[1171] But, um, yeah, we get more distinguished and why.

[1172] Yeah, why can't you just put a fucking camera on a woman's face like that?

[1173] Oh, Ethan keeps being like, let your gray hair out and I'm like, I would never work again.

[1174] Yeah, yeah.

[1175] But I'm like, why not?

[1176] I want to get back to, um, because ultimately, and you were so interesting that I wasted all this time because I, I, there's a couple of specific things I want to talk to you about acting.

[1177] You wanted to do drama, but, but you did have this penchant for comedy.

[1178] And then you found yourself in the, in the Adam McKay World, Will Ferrell world, right?

[1179] Because you were an anchor man and stepbrothers.

[1180] And so now you're going, if I'm you at least, I have to just say like, well, I'm with the best of the best and I'm doing fine.

[1181] Like, oh, I guess I can do this.

[1182] Was there moments where you were like, oh, I can do this?

[1183] Or did you always think you could?

[1184] Do you have any anxiety about going full comedy?

[1185] No, you know, because I'm not a sketch, I'm not an improv.

[1186] I would, I mean, I love improvising, but I'm not.

[1187] I wouldn't say I'm like an improviser.

[1188] Like I didn't study it.

[1189] I wouldn't put myself in the category of the improvisers I know and worship.

[1190] Because like when you see that shit, you're like, oh.

[1191] But, you know, and the McKay world, I would say the reason I loved, like, stepbrothers was like, when I got that movie and got on that set, it felt there was an anarchy to it.

[1192] that I really like was turned on by that didn't feel strictly comedy to me that felt punk rock yeah because it didn't well Anna McKay's kind of punk rock his soul is punk rock his soul is yeah so it didn't feel like it didn't feel like a comedy life that I was that I thought that I had to like stand on it didn't feel like the comedy world that especially at that point which was like dude comedy that was like get some pussy yes that was like through a lens of like put the chicken cutlets in put the spray tan on it was like a male lens it was like you were there to service a certain like I felt I felt like I was contributing in a way that was not about like that it was it I felt utilized you weren't moving their stories along you weren't there to service them you were there to be your own character yeah yeah and And I wasn't there to stand in a mark and dutifully do, like, I was there to shake up shit as much as everybody else.

[1193] And so that was, it opened it up.

[1194] And I really do feel like I was able to take what I learned from there and put that into something like the work that I had had done with Jill Soloway.

[1195] And then you were in, and then just because I want to say this, I fucking loved Captain Fantastic.

[1196] I can't even explain what a movie.

[1197] I know.

[1198] I loved running.

[1199] I know they're not very similar, but I remember.

[1200] I remember seeing running on empty, which is one of my favorites, that similar vibe of like letting a, having to let a child go, like letting your kids grow.

[1201] I loved it.

[1202] Vigo fucking mortison, man. That fucking face.

[1203] Okay, again, so here we go.

[1204] I just want to dive into this.

[1205] God bless you, 25 years.

[1206] Because if I'm you and all of a sudden I'm looking at Vigo all day long, I'm a little scared.

[1207] I don't give a fucking.

[1208] he played his mom.

[1209] It's a unique situation for someone to find themselves.

[1210] To be staring at Vigo Mortensen, is that his name?

[1211] Morgensen?

[1212] Mortensen.

[1213] Yeah, Mortensen.

[1214] To be staring at Vigo, who gets to do that?

[1215] And you're away, you're somewhere, it's two months and you're just, I'm sorry, but my imagination just be a little bit like, my God, I would not mind just tussling with him.

[1216] Just even like light wrestling with Vigo.

[1217] He is.

[1218] What a fucking bombshell.

[1219] He is a bombshell.

[1220] He is an absolute alien.

[1221] That was the movie though that when my son went in, we shot a movie, we shot a scene in an actual church and I realized Leonard had not seen, ever seen like Jesus on a cross.

[1222] Okay.

[1223] And I had grown up with that image of like really graphic Jesus on a cross.

[1224] Oh yeah.

[1225] Sometimes they even put like blood around.

[1226] There was.

[1227] It was like the gash.

[1228] And he came to work on props for that because like all the kids made, you know all the kids on the bus had props and so Leonard came and like played you know with the kids and like which was really fun we were in the church for a second and Leonard went mom mom I was like what's it matter and he was like why is that Native American nailed to that cross?

[1229] And I was like there's progressive progressive Native American I was like oh my god he didn't even say Indian he said Native American I was like we have so much talking to do oh my God anyway that's a tangent but yeah I love that movie mom there appears to be a Hopi Indian on that cross.

[1230] Why is that Native American Nail to that cross?

[1231] Oh, that's fantastic.

[1232] Oh, my God, we have so much talking to do.

[1233] So now, now you and I were in a movie together.

[1234] Yeah.

[1235] This is where I met you, basically.

[1236] This is where I met you.

[1237] I have this very profound, not profound.

[1238] I have this very specific memory of connecting with you in Toronto.

[1239] I doubt you would remember this.

[1240] I think I do.

[1241] You were there with a beautiful movie.

[1242] Weren't you there?

[1243] The judge and this is where I leave you.

[1244] It was a double Toronto whammy.

[1245] But we found ourselves backstage and we didn't see each other on the movie.

[1246] Well, this is where I leave you.

[1247] And then at that point, I had now seen you and enough things where, like, I was very aware of you.

[1248] And I assume it probably feels this way for you even more than it did from the outside.

[1249] But, like, it felt to me like you were on the precipice of, like, being your own star.

[1250] Did you get that feeling?

[1251] Oh, God.

[1252] Like, everyone loved you.

[1253] All the right people loved you.

[1254] You were fucking great in everything you did like eight things in a row.

[1255] You were just great.

[1256] And it was like, oh, well, this is definitely the next person who's going to be their own movie star.

[1257] Oh, gosh, Dax.

[1258] So I was very excited when I met you because I felt that way about you.

[1259] And then I connected with you backstage and you were very warm and very, very kind.

[1260] And we had like a nice 15 minute conversation.

[1261] And I was like, oh, I really like that person.

[1262] Cut to you do bad moms with my wife.

[1263] Yeah.

[1264] And I go down to, I guess Atlanta was the first place or New Orleans was the first place.

[1265] New Orleans.

[1266] Norlands.

[1267] I go down there.

[1268] I'm very excited to see you on set.

[1269] I go to set and I want to pick right up with whatever rapport we had.

[1270] And you were definitely in the zone.

[1271] Yeah.

[1272] Of being in that character.

[1273] Yeah.

[1274] And now I'm going to ask you if my hunch was right or not.

[1275] Initially, I was like, oh, my God, where's that super sweet, warm person?

[1276] and I was so excited to shoot the shit with.

[1277] And then here was my conclusion.

[1278] I want you telling me if I'm wrong.

[1279] Days later, when I got over my own selfish thing, I thought, I bet Catherine's a little afraid playing this role.

[1280] This is a big swing.

[1281] She is playing like her tits are up.

[1282] She's slutty.

[1283] It's a huge character.

[1284] Is she a little nervous?

[1285] And was I just, what I was reading as your lack of, of interest in connecting with me is like oh I bet I bet this is a big swing for her does that make sense is that offensive or is that like I walked away going oh I think maybe that was so glad that you brought this up oh okay I'm so excited because you're as nervous as me I feel nervous and excited I remember Dax Shepard from that okay is that you came up to me and said Catherine yeah when I first heard you were playing this part I was like what Catherine I can't picture you playing this okay oh Jesus and I was like yes oh why why they say that well because you probably were thinking like how is she going to pull this well no you know what I more accurately was thinking how is anybody going to play this because I read that script my wife wanted to be another role and I had to really talk her into playing Kiki and telling her all the reasons she'd be great at Kiki.

[1286] So I kind of was...

[1287] No one else in the world should play Kiki.

[1288] She was amazing in that part, by the way, too.

[1289] And it's just funny because we don't, as much as we think, we don't always know what we do best, weirdly.

[1290] I don't know what I do best quite often.

[1291] My wife would be like, go be nice and sincere.

[1292] That's what people like about you.

[1293] Stop doing, and then I'll trust that.

[1294] And then it'll always be the thing that I...

[1295] I'm so glad that we talked about this, Dax Shepard.

[1296] I thought I got a cold vibe from you.

[1297] Oh, my God.

[1298] No, no, no, no, no. Oh, I'm so here's so here's...

[1299] So here's, let me just, so really quick, so I can clear them up my side.

[1300] So I had read that script a bunch of times.

[1301] I was making a case for my wife of why she should be in that exact role, Kiki, and that she was going to be great at it if she made that thing real, which was going to be hard to do.

[1302] And I think why she's so great in that movie is, I believe her 100%, which is almost impossible.

[1303] Your role on paper was one liner, one liner, one liner, one line or one line, dirty, dirty, dirty.

[1304] And I thought, how was an actor going to make this three -dimensional?

[1305] Like, where, what's the way in that you're not just there to do a punchline of everything?

[1306] Because you, that just runs out of steam.

[1307] Even if they're brilliantly written punchlines, if you don't find that third and fourth gear, it's going to get old in a half hour.

[1308] So it's like Samantha from Sex and the City on like, on like crap.

[1309] Yes.

[1310] Like I was like, how do you find the like not raunch?

[1311] Yes.

[1312] And so first of all, I knew you from the other thing and then other things.

[1313] And then when I saw you, what I was really saying.

[1314] is like, oh my God, you have the look.

[1315] Like, you've already, like, I was thinking, how is, how are you going, what are you going to do physically that's going to allow you to do all that believably?

[1316] And when I saw you for the first time, what I was really trying to say is like, oh, my God, you picked a perfect look.

[1317] This is amazing.

[1318] And obviously I chose much different words to get that point across.

[1319] I am so glad that we talked about this.

[1320] Because I noticed a shift too.

[1321] And I was like, wanted to make sure.

[1322] Yeah.

[1323] I was like, I thought I felt a shift too.

[1324] And I was like, what is that?

[1325] Oh, yeah, exactly.

[1326] Oh, okay.

[1327] So it just sounded to you like I was saying basically why did they pick you for this role?

[1328] Is that what you heard?

[1329] Yes.

[1330] You, in my humble opinion, I think you had the hardest role in the movie.

[1331] It was really hard.

[1332] You have to be above everyone else, but you don't have to exceed the limits of the world.

[1333] Oh, it was hard.

[1334] And then you feel like sometimes, you know, like I can now.

[1335] sometimes see you know when you're watching something you're like oh that person or i you can tell when someone or yourself is was playing the room and not the story uh -huh which is the easiest trap to fall into on a film set totally i should have started by saying you absolutely did it perfect you know that's my opinion of it you you were so funny i'm so glad we did this because you're i'm we should have started this at the goddamn beginning.

[1336] We should have cleared this goddamn air.

[1337] Why didn't we start it like this?

[1338] Because I'll tell you why.

[1339] Oh, I want a ball right now.

[1340] You're a beautiful person.

[1341] I'll tell you why we didn't start here is because 90 % of the times.

[1342] Because even those goddamn premieres when we were like, hey.

[1343] Yeah.

[1344] Like, why didn't we should have been like, uh.

[1345] Yeah, because that's how I felt about you the first time I, I interacted.

[1346] And I thought.

[1347] And then we were like, yeah.

[1348] Oh, I thought, oh, you're.

[1349] Something about me being here makes her feel less.

[1350] I don't know.

[1351] Because also you guys were in this very insular world that is helpful.

[1352] Yes.

[1353] It's very helpful.

[1354] It was helpful.

[1355] And then so when someone from outside that world would step in, which was often me, because I was there watching the children, and I'd come to set and you guys had a bubble.

[1356] And then I was probably like this, oh, wait, you're reminding me there's another world that exists.

[1357] And there's all kinds of.

[1358] Oh, God, no. Oh, okay.

[1359] No, no, no, no, no. There was nothing like, I'm not like, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, my God.

[1360] We should have, anyway, I'm so glad that we, they, you know.

[1361] I chucked it up to my expectations were too high to see you.

[1362] I was so excited to see you because I had had such a great experience chatting with you on the press tour.

[1363] And then I got so excited.

[1364] And then I just thought, oh, I'm bothering her.

[1365] That's kind of what I walked away thinking.

[1366] But again, I didn't, my ultimate takeaway.

[1367] God damn started with this.

[1368] My ultimate takeaway was not, oh, Catherine's not nice.

[1369] It was, oh, I got in her business while she was concentrating on something that was very hard to do.

[1370] That's how I left the whole thing.

[1371] I never at all felt like, oh, she's actually a bitch and I thought she was nice.

[1372] It was never that.

[1373] It was like, oh, she had her hands full.

[1374] And I wanted to like just come in and be like, oh, let's talk about.

[1375] It was a tricky.

[1376] It was definitely a tricky bird.

[1377] And then were you like, he's an asshole?

[1378] Like, that's okay.

[1379] Hey, if you thought that, if that's what he said.

[1380] I definitely was like, oh, he doesn't think I'm up to it.

[1381] Oh, my God, no. No, I did.

[1382] I did think that.

[1383] No way.

[1384] I had total.

[1385] I was thrilled.

[1386] It was you that was going to do that.

[1387] And I was also nervous for you as I'd be for me. Because I often take that role or a similar role.

[1388] I'm like, Carl and baby mama like, how's this guy going to be a piece of shit?

[1389] Oh, my God.

[1390] A moment where you actually believe he loves her or something.

[1391] Those are hard parts.

[1392] They are.

[1393] Well, that was like the, I mean, you know, those are one of those things, too, where those, those, the three of us, like, I mean, that, that chemistry, like, I mean, when we were all in a scene together, like, you could never have, like, predicted or had, like, like, pre -plan or anything, but it really did, like, really work.

[1394] Like, some of those scenes when were really, really crazy special, especially on that first one.

[1395] No, the, the way that all three of you are playing different levels and then it's, just perfectly clicked together like a Lego is, as you say, or hinting that.

[1396] It's just magic.

[1397] You either get that recipe or you don't.

[1398] My favorite, my favorite still.

[1399] And it took, like, it was, didn't even take that long to shoot.

[1400] It just happened so organically.

[1401] Like, it was, those are the scenes where you're like, okay, like, don't overthink it.

[1402] You don't like, not everyone's like behind the monitor.

[1403] It just happened.

[1404] Like, not overlit.

[1405] Not over it was the, um, uh, foreskin scene with the hoodie.

[1406] Oh, uh -huh.

[1407] Like it just happened like it's just was like perfectly like just perfect.

[1408] And I'll add a high probability of failure for that scene.

[1409] Yeah.

[1410] Because ultimately you're going to make a foreskin joke with a hoodie.

[1411] That's where you're going.

[1412] Yeah.

[1413] And now you got to get there.

[1414] Yeah.

[1415] But it just happened like exactly.

[1416] And you read it and you're like it's funny.

[1417] But like, okay.

[1418] But like it was it just everybody was like just tonally just like got there.

[1419] It was natural.

[1420] It didn't feel pushed.

[1421] It didn't feel like, oh, those are those like magic ones that.

[1422] just like oh yeah and then i just want to um before we move off with bad moms the um i mean love it i've hopefully at least i've always been within a row or two of you when we screen these things i know always behind and you guys always i'm a huge fan like i am you have my number in those movies but particularly that fucking waxing scene i can't i can't remember erupting vocally as much what justed hardly in those things i became an overnight I'm super fan of his.

[1423] I was just both of you and I was like you know that I told Kristen like I'm like fuck all this story I don't give a shit about the money get back to that love story like I need those two to be together I've not seen two characters come together meet fall in love and I'm all in in four minutes I can't remember when I'd have to go back to the 80s to a movie where I was like oh they need to get married in an hour he was so good oh my God his reaction is a completely opposite of what you were expecting and it was making you even hotter, which was so, all of it was so counterintuitive.

[1424] He was, literally, that was like the day we met.

[1425] Like, I mean, it's so weird.

[1426] He was, he was just delicious.

[1427] He was, it was so fast, again, like one of the first takes he opened the door and he was like, Catherine?

[1428] And I was like, no. Like, it was that.

[1429] Like, we knew each other so little that, like, he forgot that I was Carl on one take.

[1430] Like, it was so, it was so cute.

[1431] He was awesome.

[1432] No, and then He was just such a gamer.

[1433] And the play who plays your son.

[1434] Oh my God.

[1435] We were dying.

[1436] No, he is just hook light and sinker.

[1437] He called me ma 'am off camera the whole time.

[1438] I love him so much.

[1439] Yeah, I know he's the best.

[1440] But again, and I just circle back to Testament to what an amazing job you did in the first one is that the second installment, the storyline that to me has the most emotional resident is what's going on between you and your mom like to me that was you here you are the archest character in the movie in the franchise and i'm and i'm most caught up in your personal story which to me says you did the magic trick and there was somehow you were a real person that still said all those crazy things because the it was heartbreaking that you trying to make your mom like you and then falling in love with that guy and he disappeared i was it to me the emotional drive of that.

[1441] Second one was your stuff.

[1442] It was, I think that's pretty, that's amazing.

[1443] Oh, God.

[1444] Okay.

[1445] You wrote a book.

[1446] Did this start with, you wrote a, a piece for, for Lenny.

[1447] Yeah.

[1448] What my daughter's taught me. What was it the title?

[1449] I think it's called, it's called how I learned to be a woman for my six -year -old daughter, which is like, again, I wrote it three years ago.

[1450] And it's so funny because I think I would have, you know, it's such a snapshot of where I was just three years ago.

[1451] And Scholastic had reached out and asked if I was trying.

[1452] Did you do all those little drawings?

[1453] No. Oh, okay.

[1454] An awesome woman in Brooklyn did them.

[1455] But yeah, that was not for children.

[1456] But then Scholastic asked if I would turn it into a kid's book and it was not for kids.

[1457] And I said, sure.

[1458] And then it was such an awesome, simple, sweet process.

[1459] to like turn it into a little book for kids and I couldn't be proud of it's so sweet and like unexpected like nothing I would have ever thought was going to be happening now there were a ton of things you listed that you learned from your six year old but now that's three years later which ones are you still like God that was really poignant like are there a couple that you can think about the top of your head that still you're like yeah that's that was good good to learn I mean I think like I love um embrace your shyness and I love be fearless and um and I love you know take your time to say what you take your time to say what you need to say if you can't find the words just scream until you find the words I love that and I think if there's something about like how we um how it is so hard to say what we need still um what we need yeah yeah yeah yeah Yeah.

[1460] Well, I say this endlessly on here.

[1461] The line between neediness and vulnerability is the hardest one to navigate in life.

[1462] And we're all very afraid of being needy.

[1463] And being needy is not attractive.

[1464] But being vulnerable and stating your needs is very attractive.

[1465] But boy, that's hard for us.

[1466] And just to just to see her having like no fear about like being who she is completely.

[1467] and not trying to like squeeze into like different pockets like you know and just think about the the girl I was trying to like shape shift because I was hiding who I was and just wanting to her to stay just to just to be able to still stay true um anyway I think it's an important I wish I you know this is I have nothing figured out and I don't know this is not any sort of like a you know advice or expert book but it's in any way, but it's just like just a sweet musing, I think.

[1468] Yeah, do you some, I sometimes look at my kids and I go, oh, we're kind of lying to them.

[1469] We're like, we're weirdly preparing them for a world that they're not going to inhabit.

[1470] Here's my example.

[1471] Like in our house, farting's hysterical.

[1472] You're encouraged to fart as loud as possible and then comment on it.

[1473] Yes.

[1474] I'm not even warning them that they're going to do that at some point in second grade and everyone's going to look at them like they're a monster and they're going to want to throw up.

[1475] And I'm going to go, oh, my God, I've misled these poor kids.

[1476] I've led them right into the lion's den because in our house, I do love them unconditionally.

[1477] And that is their world.

[1478] And then slowly you find out, oh, the rest of the world doesn't love me unconditionally.

[1479] It's a little bit of a trick.

[1480] So, yeah, when you're six, you can be very, you can express your needs.

[1481] You've not yet been told you're stupid and ugly and all these things.

[1482] And then just slowly the real world seeps in.

[1483] Yeah.

[1484] And that's the part.

[1485] I don't think we've really.

[1486] understand.

[1487] But isn't that Wendy Mogo said that thing, which was so awesome, was like, but yet, like, they need the fourth grade teacher that's, like, uninspired and, like, going to tell them that they're not special.

[1488] And then they need the friends that, like, the slutty's friend that's like, like, that was, that's so, that's also important.

[1489] Like, you can't shelter them from those things.

[1490] And that's like.

[1491] And they're going to join the real world.

[1492] They're not going to live in my house forever.

[1493] Totally.

[1494] Have you seen the Chris Rock special where he's like, I try to tell my kids, when you leave this house, no one's going to care at all about what you're going through.

[1495] I was like, what a breakthrough.

[1496] What a fucking breakthrough.

[1497] It's so true.

[1498] Like all this stuff you're telling me about, I'm listening.

[1499] It's great, but you need to know.

[1500] No one in the rest of the world will care it all that you're in a bad mood.

[1501] Totally.

[1502] Yeah, we're like a little bit misleading.

[1503] Yes.

[1504] Yeah.

[1505] It cracks me. I get kind of aware of it sometimes when parents are like, I'll just go like, my patience is so endless compared to what they're going to deal with.

[1506] everywhere else.

[1507] Like I, there was a moment where I was talking with friends of mine where we were like, this is when we were early, like young parents and I remember them being like, I don't think that my son has had his eyes open without us looking at him for a second since he's been fucking born.

[1508] Like it's crazy.

[1509] Yeah.

[1510] Like I, it's so crazy.

[1511] Oh my gosh.

[1512] Now that you're saying, that the other breakthrough I had is I was thinking, oh, that's what we're looking for in relationships.

[1513] We want freedom to fuck whoever.

[1514] Wait, wait, that doesn't sound very related to childhood.

[1515] No, I was thinking as I like, again, I have daughters.

[1516] So like my affection for them and I just want to snuggle them.

[1517] And I, they get away with murder with me. Like, I will like them no matter what they're doing, you know.

[1518] And I was thinking.

[1519] oh yeah they're they're gonna look for this for the rest of their life this is what we kind of do is like we want to be loved by somebody and looked at and tolerated the way you're supposed to be looked at and loved and tolerated by your parents yeah and I was like oh this is where it all starts this is the thing you end up searching for the rest of your life yeah is just that like oh I fucking would set myself on fire for you right now yeah yeah and it's a little misleading because no one's going to give us that and we're not entitled to that so it's very tricky there's the you can't get a parent's love from a partner that's a bad expectation yeah but would I would argue though that the security that they will that your daughters will have from that love that they're getting I don't think I'm doing it wrong yeah yeah I'm not arguing to not do it that way I'm only pointing out no no no no no I'm only pointing out the journey we then go on as adults we need to be aware of that like oh we're looking for something that we're not entitled to from someone else like my kids don't have to earn that from me they just have it they're my kids and i'm going to give that to them if they murder someone i'm going to give it to them but in a relationship you're not entitled to that you got to walk the walk you got you know what i'm saying but i do think we are a little bit selfishly looking for that or we think we're entitled to that.

[1520] And we just have to check ourselves.

[1521] They're like, no, that exists from your parents.

[1522] And that's cool.

[1523] But in a relationship, you're not going to have a daddy who just fucking doesn't give a shit what you do.

[1524] And you're not going to have a mommy who just tolerates you that you're a fucking hog and a messy piece of shit.

[1525] And love you.

[1526] No. This is now a relationship that has to be 50 -50 symbiotic.

[1527] But my daughter's they don't have to be 50 -50.

[1528] I'll be 90 -10.

[1529] Anyways, I just, I thought of that with my own little like when I get braddy like Kristen should care about everything I do and you know I realize like oh I just want her to be my mom and I can't want my wife to be my mom no it's that that's not what I'm entitled to no no because I could literally ring my mom's doorbell covered in fucking blood where'd you just come from I just killed five people at the McDonald's she'd go come on in let's make you like you know she wouldn't give a oh my god but my partner shouldn't do that I don't think so no I mean, she could.

[1530] She could.

[1531] I would.

[1532] Well, I'd be like, hon, where are the bodies?

[1533] We need to definitely dispose of those.

[1534] That's the best piece of evidence they have.

[1535] You guys are deep in it.

[1536] Like, she should.

[1537] Yeah.

[1538] Yeah, we both need to raise these kids together.

[1539] I'll do whatever.

[1540] I got to keep her on this side of the bars.

[1541] She's so fucking awesome.

[1542] So the name of your book is My Wish for You.

[1543] And did you write it with May, your daughter?

[1544] I mean, yeah, she got it like she inspired it.

[1545] She's not getting a cut.

[1546] She's not.

[1547] We have, we both have the same honor of helping sell the Chrysler Pacifica.

[1548] I did not goddamn know that.

[1549] Shouldn't say God damn.

[1550] Yeah, you can.

[1551] You can.

[1552] I didn't know that.

[1553] They are a proud sponsor of Armshire Expert and we drive a Pacifica.

[1554] Do you have one?

[1555] I do.

[1556] Yeah.

[1557] Well, I'm actually, I have to give it back today.

[1558] This is the day.

[1559] I'll call.

[1560] Oh, please.

[1561] I love that car.

[1562] Yes, right.

[1563] It's great.

[1564] It's pretty gangster, right?

[1565] Yeah, we have the hybrid.

[1566] Uh -huh.

[1567] And does it have the TVs?

[1568] Yes, we took it to Joshua Tree this weekend.

[1569] Right.

[1570] How about this?

[1571] Chris and I will take these road trips.

[1572] We're listening to podcasts up front.

[1573] Yes.

[1574] Kids are in back watching God.

[1575] I don't even care.

[1576] No, it's actually the best.

[1577] Scarface and back.

[1578] And we're listening to Malcolm Gladwell's podcast.

[1579] Totally.

[1580] The whole family's in heaven.

[1581] The whole family.

[1582] Exactly.

[1583] No country for old men back there.

[1584] And we're.

[1585] Texas chainsaw massacre.

[1586] Exactly.

[1587] Wait, that's amazing.

[1588] They're rad cars.

[1589] They are and they are a sponsor of ours.

[1590] And I talk about them probably as much as you do.

[1591] Yeah, we went to Joshua Tree.

[1592] We just Airbnb beat it last weekend.

[1593] It was the best.

[1594] We needed it.

[1595] When the kids went to bed, did you do mushrooms?

[1596] And we trimmed.

[1597] Yeah.

[1598] I'm still trimming.

[1599] I've done a lot of shrooms out there in Joshua Tree.

[1600] It's really fun.

[1601] It's so fun.

[1602] It's like kind of made for shrooms.

[1603] For shrooms.

[1604] Because the rock.

[1605] It's all you see.

[1606] The rock formations.

[1607] I know.

[1608] Even sober look.

[1609] mushroom last weekend, but I do love trimming.

[1610] Mushroom.

[1611] Yes, yes.

[1612] I do recommend it to people who can handle their drugs.

[1613] I was out there shrooming pretty hard with my buddy Scotty and it got dark on us and we were very lost.

[1614] Mind you, we were probably only 200 feet from our campsite.

[1615] I could not find it.

[1616] And we happened to bump into this guy who's got a telescope, I promise you, is the size of a hot water heater.

[1617] It's the biggest telescope I've ever seen in my life.

[1618] And he's on a stool and we bump into him and we're lost.

[1619] And we're like, hey, oh my god what's what's this and he's like well it's a 14 inch mirror telescope you know he goes in a thing so very rare time right now you can see some some celestial body right and he's so unique this only happens once every 15 years he's just dialing it and dialing it in we're watching anticipating we watch him dial it in for 30 40 minutes and he goes would you guys like to take a look you have to imagine what was in our our imaginations at this point what I was going to see I thought I was going to see like the whole Milky Way galaxy lit up with different colors and stuff.

[1620] I climb the ladder.

[1621] I look through this hole and it's just a pin drop of light.

[1622] That's what he's dialed this thing into.

[1623] And I'm now, I've just confronted how off my imagination was.

[1624] And yet now I know that Scotty's at the bottom of the ladder with the exact same fantasy of what he's about to see.

[1625] I just don't think I've ever been in a more precarious situation where I did not want to laugh at this guy, what he had just gone through to aim this thing and lug it out to the desert and knowing Scottie's about to get up there on the thing.

[1626] And so I'm trying to kind of stifle my laughter.

[1627] I come off this ladder.

[1628] I watched Scotty climb it and he looks through and he goes, did Dax move it?

[1629] And he goes, I don't know.

[1630] Let's see.

[1631] He gets up there.

[1632] He looks through.

[1633] No, that's it.

[1634] Scotty has to recline the ladder.

[1635] What did he think it was?

[1636] It was just a dot.

[1637] It was a fucking star like I could have seen with my bare eye.

[1638] And we both had this crazy fantasy of what it was going to look like through these things were on shrooms and it was nothing.

[1639] And then we just couldn't understand how this guy he'd put all this effort into seeing just the same star as all the other stars.

[1640] Oh my God.

[1641] But it's kind of beautiful that your friend also, you guys were on the exact same page.

[1642] Yes, he thought I must have bumped it.

[1643] There's no way this is what this guy has put all this effort into.

[1644] I love that your friend was on the exact same page as you though.

[1645] Like, thank God.

[1646] That's so awesome.

[1647] We tried to, I remember going out there way pre -children with my hubby and we like, we like, we had this whole, like, set up of like a hike.

[1648] We were going to like, I mean, we had like snacks.

[1649] We had like our bag of toilet paper.

[1650] Like we were like, we were set for like a long hike.

[1651] And then we started walking, realized like, oh, fuck.

[1652] Like we didn't have a compass or a phone with us.

[1653] And we were like, we can get, you know, we got this.

[1654] And then we got real paranoid that we were going to be totally lost.

[1655] I peed twice, ate like all the food.

[1656] Like it was like, we did it.

[1657] Like it was like the dumbest.

[1658] And then we were all paranoid.

[1659] I was like convinced that we weren't going to like ate everything.

[1660] We were gone 45 minutes.

[1661] But like it was a vision quest.

[1662] Yes.

[1663] Like we were we thought we had been gone but it's for real out there.

[1664] Do you mean that was that horrible story just a couple years ago about that couple that.

[1665] Did we lose them?

[1666] Yeah, we lost them.

[1667] Okay.

[1668] Their struggles over.

[1669] They got lost.

[1670] They got lost and they were just like found like two basically two skeletons were found just like holding a gun.

[1671] Like I think they just shot each other because or he shot or they they generally the guy in that scenario that does the shooting not to stereotype why may it was guys are fucking animals no but I think he did it to get relieve I mean I think he really I think he was like it's philanthropic yeah yeah because I think they had gotten so lost and it was so bad oh my god well we went on a morning hike not on shrooms good ad for Josh we just see this girl anyway We took like a little morning hike one time out there camping.

[1672] We're sober.

[1673] And just all of a sudden this girl comes walking out of the desert, sobbing.

[1674] And she's been out there all night.

[1675] She got separated shrewing.

[1676] I think it must happen a couple times a weekend.

[1677] Well, I'm really glad that we cleared up our thing.

[1678] I still feel like maybe I owe you an apology.

[1679] No, no, no. You already did.

[1680] It's done.

[1681] It's so wild to me that I could have given that off to you because I was so my own.

[1682] I did notice a shift.

[1683] And I was like, oh.

[1684] But that's why I'm glad this happened.

[1685] Yeah, because I just loved you from the second I met you.

[1686] Oh, me as well.

[1687] And then when I saw you at Kimmel, I was like, oh, there we go.

[1688] Now we're where I thought.

[1689] Yeah.

[1690] Oh, then you were such a gentleman to me because I was like, again, I just felt like I was like sat down and I was like, again, to be full circle, please watch three episodes of late night talk show.

[1691] Oh, God.

[1692] I feel like there's so many more important things to do with my time.

[1693] No, you just do it so you recognize what the bar is.

[1694] I think you have in your mind that you should be doing Sarah Silverman's best five minutes of her stand up when you get on that couch.

[1695] And that's just not the ball.

[1696] I have to sit a little better because I always kind of feel like I come out like that.

[1697] You know what's that they call that when men do that?

[1698] It's like man spreading or something.

[1699] Man spraining.

[1700] Man spawning.

[1701] I think I've seen like on the internet they do these tags where it's like guys on subways and stuff.

[1702] And guys do they sit with their fucking knees like four feet apart.

[1703] No, every airplane I go on.

[1704] It's like I just always feel like I'm like doing a passive -aggressive, like push to some sleeping side.

[1705] I am so caught between recognizing that, knowing that's reality.

[1706] Yeah.

[1707] And then also not being able to enjoy that Hannah thing the way you guys did.

[1708] You didn't enjoy it.

[1709] I couldn't.

[1710] There was a point where when she said that the Weinsteins.

[1711] Did you love it?

[1712] Yeah.

[1713] That the Weinsteins of the world.

[1714] But I knew he didn't.

[1715] are the rule not the exception that was one of the sentences in that okay but this is what i'm going to say to you this is okay okay and this is something that um my friend jill had said uh all away yeah that is something that i is in my that is in my craw that is just something interesting to like think about or like put on is like it just like it just like like it is in an interesting thing to remember or just like to is that like we grew like imagine like growing up and sitting in your classroom and looking up and seeing like all the presidents of the United States like around and each one of them being a woman like and that is just power yeah like well and every single person you're going to read about in that.

[1716] the history.

[1717] In everything.

[1718] Like if that is the lens of just how you, that's just it.

[1719] Yeah.

[1720] It's like an interesting tip.

[1721] Like it's, it is just what it is.

[1722] Yeah.

[1723] And it's not like no one's trying to like, but it's just, it's an interesting time to just think like that.

[1724] It is just a lens that is an interesting thing to consider.

[1725] Yeah.

[1726] Well, the thing that is.

[1727] Right.

[1728] I mean, it is.

[1729] Yeah.

[1730] Yeah.

[1731] And I understand feeling.

[1732] defensive if you are not one of those people and you don't want to be, you don't want to be lumped in that category.

[1733] Exactly.

[1734] Clearly not.

[1735] Well, that's the thing is, is, yeah, I'm trying to separate myself.

[1736] It's weird because I don't believe in identity politics.

[1737] I don't think the thing that defines me is whatever group I fall into.

[1738] I think I'm an individual and I should be evaluated on my individuality, and who I actually am as a person.

[1739] But it is, it is a time rightly so that the white male is the common enemy for Black Lives Matter.

[1740] It's the common enemy for the Me Too movement.

[1741] It's the common enemy for, you name it.

[1742] We're it.

[1743] Rightly so.

[1744] I acknowledge it.

[1745] The white male has had his time.

[1746] And he happens to be the common, it's not common complaint, the common antagonist in that any, any given group struggle right now in America.

[1747] And to be a member of that group, it has an effect on me. Sure.

[1748] Yeah.

[1749] It's just like at times I'm like, okay, I get it.

[1750] We're pieces of shit.

[1751] Blah, blah, blah.

[1752] What fuck us.

[1753] And then I have to go, why are you owning the identity of this whole group, they're not talking about you.

[1754] But it is, it requires a lot of thought on my end.

[1755] And you're clearly a, you're like, I mean, whatever, you're clearly a beautiful brain that is processing it.

[1756] It just, I think it just, it is an interesting time that is just requiring, I feel like the listening.

[1757] What's funny is I feel that way.

[1758] It just requires a listening.

[1759] Yes.

[1760] And when I can recognize it is I feel that way.

[1761] that is how I feel like it or not when I when I watch that special I'm like oh everyone hates me because I'm a part of this group but then I'll hear another man say that out loud on TV like well I don't know what we're supposed to say anymore and I'll be like oh Jesus do you get over yourself no one's talking about you so it's funny I can see it in other people that it sounds so stupid when men are getting defensive about it but if I'm just being truthful I am taking that on but it's okay to feel that yeah it's totally okay but as long as you have that next step, which you do have sometimes on your good days.

[1762] Yeah, my good days.

[1763] Yeah.

[1764] That's what I say about racism.

[1765] It's the feeling of whatever fear or whatever is happening, the feeling you get is not the racist part.

[1766] It's what the next step is.

[1767] Are you going to let that fear affect you?

[1768] Are you going to let that fear affect what you do, how you talk to that person, how you feel about that person, or are you going to recognize, oh, that's something innate, that's an innate fear, it's, I have to push that aside because we can't live like that.

[1769] You can have that feeling and not be a racist person if you act accordingly.

[1770] Same with this.

[1771] Like you can feel defensive and you can have all those things.

[1772] If you then say, oh, but that's me doing this and I need to put those walls down because this is a real problem happening.

[1773] Yeah, and it's also tricky for me because I also recognize the move for me is to just shut up.

[1774] Like, I didn't say a thing during, when we all watched that.

[1775] I was a, I made a very specific decision.

[1776] Like, I'm not going to vocalize my opinion while we watched you at all.

[1777] Lots of it did.

[1778] I did not mean to swerve into this.

[1779] No, I love this.

[1780] Are you kidding me?

[1781] Yeah.

[1782] I was really moved by it because I, I think the tension that she's talking about, like that discomfort that she was like, it's not perfect.

[1783] But like that like when she's like I'm giving you the tension, like it's yours is like exactly this.

[1784] Like I don't know.

[1785] I just was like that is.

[1786] I also want to say I thought it was awesome.

[1787] So well done.

[1788] And I was saying to Monica, the one thing I did say about it while watching it was I've never had the experience where I was watching comedy.

[1789] and they would go into closeups on her and I would totally forget I would feel like I was watching a narrative it was like so powerful I thought I was watching something scripted in a well done movie and then they would pop out to these wides and I'd be like oh my God this woman's on stage just naked doing this this is incredible so I totally I totally have a lot of admiration for everything about it it's just there were moments where I was like it made you feel attacked a little of it.

[1790] Yeah, nervous.

[1791] Because I have to imagine I'm doing higher on the spectrum of dealing with it.

[1792] I have to assume that someone who's been in recovery and love self -analysis and taking responsibility for your own faults, all that.

[1793] If I'm feeling this way, what is the dude who's dad's left and he's on welfare in fucking rural Michigan?

[1794] How does that dude feel?

[1795] And well I hope that is watching that but I don't know if that he's probably not watching it but I also think well I I know the result of it we have a certain president that's the result of it well that's the thing is like the ultimate the ultimate I mean I yeah is that the shit that is going down right now in terms of just respect and empathy and how we're talking to each other and just like what it's such a shit show right now.

[1796] I just really think it goes back.

[1797] I think I think I'm going back to just listening and that it is just like empathy is like is the bottom line that like defense is going to be about it.

[1798] Like whatever this like moment is like that people are going to have defensiveness to break through like there's like so many camps like partisan gender like there's so like rate like there's so like rate like there's so.

[1799] race um uh there's so like capitalism versus like i mean i think all goes back to i think there's so much going on the haves that have nots that like there's so many camps happening yeah that i just feel like it just so much has to be just like there's just not a lot of like listening and just like well and then again the other problem is um from my point of view uh it's not the white straight male's time to talk.

[1800] No, it's not.

[1801] Right.

[1802] I recognize that as a fact.

[1803] It's not.

[1804] And it doesn't mean like that it's a wash. But if you're not invited to the conversation, your inclination is, well, I'm not a part of the conversation.

[1805] So levy whatever verdict you want, because I'm not going to have a voice in this.

[1806] I'm not invited to this.

[1807] Again, rightly so.

[1808] Wait, I'm going to say, I'm going to say actually that that is not true.

[1809] that you are that you have to be a part of the conversation that it is imperative that you're a part of the conversation like well that's my my belief my belief is that you have to be a part of the conversation so I I don't think that that's true at all but I think that there there has to be a wider like humanist breath to it like that there has to well that's a little bit my fear is that we have this is identity politics we have found our camp whatever the camp is and now that group identity is defined in opposition to some other identity.

[1810] And as much as the black experience is unique and the female experience is unique, and the LGBT experience is unique, it is ignoring the human experience that's laying under all that.

[1811] And so it's a little dangerous that the identities are, that we're making such clear boundaries in the groups we're finding ourselves in.

[1812] And I just don't see that as the way out.

[1813] Because there has been so, much um like we can't imagine we i even i can't imagine like there's been so much pain and so much um hurt for so many of these groups that have so much to be um angry about and there's so much anger i completely understand and hold their their righteous ability to ask for what is theirs.

[1814] Yes.

[1815] And 100 % they deserve to be heard.

[1816] And I believe it was 100 % necessity for a civil rights movement for black people to assemble into a collective identity and enact change.

[1817] So I think it was absolutely imperative.

[1818] It's not over.

[1819] Yes.

[1820] But when I look at utopia, when I have a fantasy of what utopia is, in my fantasy of utopia, it's not 40 different groups.

[1821] We've somehow figured out how to just live as human beings.

[1822] But this is the step.

[1823] That's how you get there.

[1824] That's how you get there.

[1825] Like even gender, that's what I was saying.

[1826] Like, even gender.

[1827] Like, I really don't think hopefully it will matter.

[1828] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1829] Like, it won't matter.

[1830] Yeah.

[1831] Like, I, that's my, like, hopefully one day.

[1832] Yeah, we'd like to believe that's where we're ready.

[1833] Matter from Mars.

[1834] We're from Venus or whatever.

[1835] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1836] I think it's opposite.

[1837] No, that's right.

[1838] Oh, it is?

[1839] Yeah.

[1840] See, it doesn't even matter.

[1841] Like, it just like.

[1842] Well, maybe now men are from Venus.

[1843] But, like, one day, like, hopefully it won't even matter.

[1844] I'm going to start a group that men, I'm the men from Venus group.

[1845] Catherine, I love you.

[1846] I'm so glad you came by and chatted with us.

[1847] Oh, my God, I love you.

[1848] This was the greatest.

[1849] Well, do it again.

[1850] Can we?

[1851] I think we just scratched the surface.

[1852] Oh, my God, you guys.

[1853] I think we scratched the surface.

[1854] Yeah, I think there's more.

[1855] This was a deep dive, though.

[1856] It was a really deep dive.

[1857] It was our favorite kind of dive.

[1858] My friends, before we.

[1859] get into the fact check, I want to spread the word about my good friend Ellen DeGeneres.

[1860] She has a new podcast that's called Ellen on the go.

[1861] And it's very cool because it condenses a bunch of highlights from that week's Ellen show.

[1862] It also gives you kind of behind the scenes, how the show's made, put together.

[1863] You get to hear from the actual people who make the show happen.

[1864] It's incredibly fun and insightful.

[1865] It's fantastic, as you would expect from our good friend Ellen.

[1866] And And because you're a armchair listener and she likes the kind of people that listen to this show, she's given us an exclusive preview of the first episode.

[1867] And if you want to subscribe to the show, go to Ellen on the Go on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening right now.

[1868] And there's also a link in our notes.

[1869] If you want to subscribe, it's not to be missed.

[1870] So please enjoy an excerpt from her new podcast, Ellen on the Go.

[1871] Hi, it's me, Dame Judy Dench.

[1872] I'm kidding.

[1873] It's Ellen.

[1874] Isn't it weird how much we sound alike, though?

[1875] Anyway, welcome to my podcast.

[1876] We're going to listen to some of the best moments from the show, and it's going to be hosted by four executive producers that I love.

[1877] They have been with me from every single show, from the very beginning, so they know a lot.

[1878] And if they say anything that I wouldn't like, please tweet me. Happy listening.

[1879] Welcome to our podcast.

[1880] This is very exciting.

[1881] Thanks, Ellen, for that nice introduction.

[1882] I'm Mary Conley.

[1883] I'm Andy Lassner.

[1884] I'm Ed Glevin.

[1885] I'm Kevin Aleem in the second.

[1886] So, yeah, we're really exciting.

[1887] excited about this podcast.

[1888] Ellen asked as if we were willing to do it and we said sure and asked her how much we'd get paid for it and she said nothing and so here we are.

[1889] I thought that was a joke when Ellen said nothing.

[1890] No, we're not getting a penny for this.

[1891] Got it.

[1892] Anyway, we're very excited about it and hopefully you'll be listening to us every Tuesday and Thursday where we're going to give you some of the clips that we really loved from the past week's show and also give you some behind the scenes of how our show gets made every day.

[1893] Now, Andy, did you enjoy when Mark Wahlberg told his story about how he likes to go in a cryo chamber once a day?

[1894] I'm going to be honest with you.

[1895] When he was telling the story, I did find it fascinating and interesting that someone would take their body temperature that low.

[1896] Okay, so we're back with Mark Wahlberg who works out a lot and it's evidence, so you just look at you and you can see that.

[1897] But I know you do something that's, is it a cryo?

[1898] What is it called?

[1899] Oh, the cryos?

[1900] CHRIO chamber.

[1901] Cryo chamber.

[1902] You have to try it.

[1903] I want to know, first of all, you didn't have one, so you got in freezing cold water when you were on vacation, right?

[1904] So this, how freezing is that water?

[1905] It's like 50 something degrees.

[1906] You'll watch if I go a little further.

[1907] See, it starts getting really uncomfortable.

[1908] Right around that level.

[1909] It's like 55 degrees.

[1910] But the cryo chamber is like 150 below zero.

[1911] You go in for three minutes, but you can move around.

[1912] You can listen to a song.

[1913] And it really kind of, it helps with your recovery.

[1914] It takes all the lactic acid information.

[1915] I'm sorry, say the temperature again?

[1916] It's 150 below in the cryo chamber.

[1917] That's like 55.

[1918] That's not true.

[1919] You cannot be in 150 below temperature.

[1920] Well, that's what they're selling me. Yeah, you can only go in for three minutes.

[1921] You go in, you know, you have a mask on, gloves, socks, a hat.

[1922] But yeah, you go in for three minutes.

[1923] So that's all you have no underwear, no other things.

[1924] You just have a pair of underwear on.

[1925] Yes, there it is.

[1926] That's the cryo chamber.

[1927] That's a real thing.

[1928] All right, and so you go in, how do you not get frostbite?

[1929] Well, we went in the water.

[1930] There's one where there's one in Columbus, Ohio, which we can get to later, where you actually have to cover your nipples as well, because they will start to really freeze and whatever else could happen.

[1931] But it actually.

[1932] What about your stuff?

[1933] It just shrivels up a little bit.

[1934] It's OK.

[1935] It comes back to normal.

[1936] But I'm telling you, it is great for recovery.

[1937] And it just takes all the inflammation out of your body.

[1938] It helps you sleep good.

[1939] Wow.

[1940] You should try it.

[1941] I'm going to tell you that one of my favorite moments of the week, has to be Andy being surprised by Ellen and being forced against his will into a cryo chamber for three minutes.

[1942] So Mark Wahlberg tells that story.

[1943] That night, Kevin and Ellen have a conversation.

[1944] And Kevin and Ellen decide that the next day they're going to surprise Andy and put him in a cryo chamber.

[1945] Kevin, you want to tell us a little bit about how that...

[1946] I mean, that's why it's still so fun, 16 years in.

[1947] Like, Ellen loves torturing Andy.

[1948] and when we heard that your body goes to minus 150 she's like can we get one here so we drove one up from san diego all behind andy's back normally we're all involved with all the decision making this all happened behind his back we wrote a whole fake monologue that she rehearsed so he had no clue uh we got a camera on him we finally uh then the show starts out big smile starts a monog that andy's never heard you see him get instantly worried when we showed the clip of mark walberg talking about the cryo chamber and the next thing you know he's talking about his pee on TV.

[1949] And since you can't, you know, see it on the podcast, you should probably know he was naked.

[1950] I feel the same way about you.

[1951] Thanks so much.

[1952] One of the things I love about this job is that I get to learn new things every single day.

[1953] For instance, Mark Wahlberg was here yesterday.

[1954] He is a great actor.

[1955] He's got an amazing body.

[1956] Am I right, ladies?

[1957] He told me about one of the secrets how he keeps fit.

[1958] It's something called cryotherapy.

[1959] It's crazy what celebrities do to stay in shape, but I was curious.

[1960] I bought one.

[1961] I wanted to know what cryotherapy feels like, and there's only one way to find out.

[1962] So, Andy, come here.

[1963] Please you to sign something first.

[1964] All right, I really do, because your assistant was going to sign, but that's not fair.

[1965] OK, just you're not pregnant, right?

[1966] No. OK.

[1967] You don't have any of these things, severe anemia.

[1968] Is this a real machine?

[1969] It is.

[1970] All right.

[1971] It's going to be so good for you.

[1972] You're going to thank me. All right.

[1973] That says 185 below.

[1974] Well, that's too cold.

[1975] Just sign there.

[1976] All right.

[1977] You're going to go behind there and change because you have to cover your stuff.

[1978] All right.

[1979] Yeah.

[1980] Minus 163.

[1981] I can't wait to hear how this is.

[1982] I was so curious.

[1983] And I was like, this is going to be so fun.

[1984] Once I got in there, I was like, oh, this isn't so bad.

[1985] But then I realized the timer hadn't started.

[1986] yet.

[1987] And then once the guy flicked whatever switch he did, I felt the cold.

[1988] And suddenly my body is getting colder and colder.

[1989] And I'm also aware that there's an audience watching.

[1990] And so it's just a lot of panic and fear.

[1991] It's funny because people always say to me, come on, you had to know that was coming.

[1992] And it is unbelievable considering the amount of time we all spend together and the amount of work we put into each show that I am completely left in.

[1993] the dark and have no idea that this stuff is coming.

[1994] And I find it very upsetting that the four of us are supposedly in a trust tree.

[1995] Andy, you should know.

[1996] Mary does care about you.

[1997] We found out there was a three -page release that you're supposed to sign for your health and heart or whatever.

[1998] Yeah.

[1999] And she made sure that we had you sign that on air.

[2000] I was a little worried about you.

[2001] I know.

[2002] I love you.

[2003] I love you.

[2004] And I was a little worried about you.

[2005] I'm frail.

[2006] Well, you are frail.

[2007] And I did not want it to all go badly.

[2008] And people are like, did you feel good?

[2009] Like, did Did it help you with your work?

[2010] I don't work out.

[2011] So there's no recovery that I need.

[2012] Here's the thing.

[2013] Twitch talked about how he does it all the time.

[2014] Yeah.

[2015] But he does it after a workout.

[2016] Like he works out and then when he's sore and has tired muscles, he does it.

[2017] And then he has recovery is so much easier.

[2018] And what I realized what we needed to do, what we should have done is we should have gotten you sore first.

[2019] We should have made you work out, made you work out, gotten you tired and then see how the recovery.

[2020] Do you know that we were originally trying to get Mark Wahlberg to wake you up at 4 o 'clock in the morning to go work out with them?

[2021] Yeah, that was a pitch, where Mark Wahlberg was going to come to your door and wake you up at 3 .45 a .m. and take you to a 4 a .m. Yeah.

[2022] I'm glad that thing happened.

[2023] I can't remember why we didn't do it.

[2024] It was such a great plan.

[2025] He couldn't.

[2026] His schedule.

[2027] Yeah.

[2028] You can subscribe today on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening to us right now.

[2029] And don't forget to watch Ellen weekdays for even more fun.

[2030] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[2031] When you're a jet, you're a jet from your first cigarette to your last dying day.

[2032] Checking facts all the way.

[2033] When you're a check, you're the cool cat in town.

[2034] You're the best all around.

[2035] Checking those facts.

[2036] Wow.

[2037] Yeah.

[2038] Do you remember, do you know what that's from?

[2039] A musical.

[2040] Yeah.

[2041] West Side Story.

[2042] Yeah.

[2043] And I'm shocked to my core that you know a song from West Side Story.

[2044] I am too.

[2045] They showed it to us like as.

[2046] Some holiday approached in junior high.

[2047] They put it in the gym.

[2048] They played it.

[2049] And it was, it held my attention because it was about gangs, but then when the gangs fought, they were just dancing really close to each other.

[2050] Yeah.

[2051] You're the best all around.

[2052] And you remember the song, though?

[2053] Like, I've watched 8 ,000 musicals in my life.

[2054] Uh -huh.

[2055] And I don't remember any songs from any one of those.

[2056] I know a bunch of songs from musicals I've never even seen.

[2057] Like, I sing it the other day.

[2058] The fiddler on the roof Like, if I were a rich man And I'm never even seeing it.

[2059] Yeah, but that's a little more in the zeitgeist.

[2060] Is that a pop song?

[2061] Yeah, Britney Spears.

[2062] When you check facts, you're the cool cat in town.

[2063] You're the best all around.

[2064] It just is, it's so weird seeing and hearing this.

[2065] I don't even know you anymore.

[2066] Sometimes I feel like that.

[2067] Oh, no. You're always waiting for our friendship to end.

[2068] Well, I get nervous, yeah.

[2069] Yeah.

[2070] How come you think?

[2071] Is it a compliment or is it?

[2072] Did it burn?

[2073] You think I'm wishy -washy?

[2074] I mean, how often do I say my best friend here on weekly?

[2075] That's going back 40 years.

[2076] Uh -huh, uh -huh.

[2077] Um, I know what it is, but I don't know.

[2078] Well, I don't know if I know for sure, but I know one aspect.

[2079] What's one aspect?

[2080] One aspect is that you, in a beautiful way, make every person feel very special.

[2081] and you also elevate everyone you like to like the highest status possible.

[2082] So sometimes I...

[2083] You feel like it's inflated my love for you or something?

[2084] I feel like, no, I feel like...

[2085] It can't be true.

[2086] It's just all the same.

[2087] Okay.

[2088] But let me ask you this.

[2089] Legit fear.

[2090] Have you ever seen it dissipate though?

[2091] You've never seen it dissipate.

[2092] have you?

[2093] Like, I felt that way about Ryan Hanson for 11 years now.

[2094] It's picking up steam.

[2095] Like, I would understand if you thought I had a borderline personality disorder where it's like I fell in love with people really quick and then I fell out with them and then they were my enemy.

[2096] But I don't have any history of that.

[2097] The people I like fall in love with, I just, I stay in love with them forever.

[2098] Right.

[2099] It never goes away.

[2100] But it feels like.

[2101] Even when they sue me. I've had friends sue me. I still love them.

[2102] Sure.

[2103] Yeah.

[2104] yeah it just feels like you um sometimes it feels like you fall in love with everyone well see that's the so yeah let's dig into that because i think that's a human hiccup because i'll see it sometimes on twitter i've had people on twitter say like oh i felt special you responded to me but then i saw that you responded to everyone and now it means nothing and then i go well that's so shitty i took the time to respond to you and connect with you and it felt good and then you went out of your way out a way to make it not feel good, which is, oh, well, other people get it too, so now it's not special.

[2105] Like, you shouldn't evaluate things on whether or not they are in rare supply.

[2106] Simply, you should evaluate them on the feeling.

[2107] So if you get a good feeling when you and I talk and I compliment you or whatever, I don't know why you would then try to find a reason.

[2108] I'm not trying to find a reason.

[2109] It just happens.

[2110] Yeah, I'd love to not feel like that.

[2111] Yeah.

[2112] But I do think it's look, I'm guilty of it too.

[2113] I do think it's a good thing for us to police ourselves on.

[2114] Like, if something feels good, let it stop there.

[2115] Don't now do some research to try to discount this good feeling you had.

[2116] I think that's like, yeah, the Twitter thing really upsets me when I like, you know, I go out of my way to have a conversation with somebody.

[2117] And then all of a sudden they decide that that was fraudulent because I did it for other people too.

[2118] I don't know.

[2119] Sure.

[2120] I understand that and I understand that being frustrating.

[2121] I also think it's okay to want to feel.

[2122] I don't think do you agree with that if you finish that sentence.

[2123] I don't think you actually intellectually agree with it.

[2124] I think maybe emotionally agree with the sentence you were about to just say.

[2125] To feel special?

[2126] Uh -huh.

[2127] You don't think it's okay to want to feel that.

[2128] I think it is very tempting, feels special.

[2129] But again, I think that's a hiccup.

[2130] You should only be evaluating how it makes you feel, not in relation to everyone else.

[2131] It either makes you feel good or it doesn't make you feel good.

[2132] And I have a ton of character defects.

[2133] I talk about them regularly.

[2134] I have a bunch of shitty parts of my personality.

[2135] I have a temper, I'm a control freak.

[2136] I talk too much.

[2137] All these things are bad about me. one of the good things about me is that I have a gigantic capacity to love a lot of people.

[2138] I agree.

[2139] And that's just one of the few good things about me. And to suggest maybe somehow because I feel that way about a lot of them that is in any way less authentic or real or substantial, as if I had fewer, I just think isn't true.

[2140] Okay.

[2141] I don't, I think you're right.

[2142] I would want you to feel that I unconditionally love you and will till I die and I will.

[2143] okay yeah even if I come to like a few more people along the way and you should and they deserve that too everyone your love is very powerful and intoxicating and people want it and you should give it to them all right let's start okay um I love when we check in emotionally publicly we'll see if it stays in It better stay in.

[2144] You know, oh, good.

[2145] Before we get into this, I want, I just want, because there's a few comments that come across regularly when we post stuff.

[2146] And I just want to, instead of responding all the time, there's a couple things I want to clear up.

[2147] One is people are asking for more women and more diversity, understandable.

[2148] We want the same thing.

[2149] I want you to know that we have asked a lot of women and women of color.

[2150] We have been very active in trying to get those people.

[2151] And they're just not saying yes.

[2152] So just quickly know that we're trying.

[2153] That is true.

[2154] They're not saying yes.

[2155] Secondly, interview Monica.

[2156] Everyone wants that as they should.

[2157] And I did.

[2158] I interviewed you a while ago.

[2159] And it's just when Monica's ready to release that.

[2160] So it's happened.

[2161] We're getting some stuff.

[2162] Yeah.

[2163] We're going to do something special.

[2164] That'll be probably more than one part.

[2165] So that has happened as well.

[2166] And it is coming.

[2167] Yeah.

[2168] Was there another thing I thought we get a lot?

[2169] I don't know.

[2170] Those are the two things.

[2171] Oh, you get upset that people ask you to buy me stuff.

[2172] Oh, yes, yes.

[2173] Everyone will tweet like, get her a footstool.

[2174] Get her a mic stand.

[2175] First of all, I'll offer to get you a mic stand like 20 times.

[2176] And then another point I want to go like, hey, Monica is a fully independent woman of means.

[2177] If she wants a footstool, she can buy a footstool.

[2178] Yeah, but I think they mean like the company.

[2179] Get her.

[2180] Well, yeah, but you have a company credit card.

[2181] I do.

[2182] Maybe they don't know that.

[2183] I do.

[2184] She has an armchair in her in her wallet right now.

[2185] She is an armchair expert American Express.

[2186] If I was uncomfortable, I would be fixing it.

[2187] And I'm, I'm very comfortable.

[2188] Okay.

[2189] That was our housekeeping.

[2190] Okay.

[2191] To start, big huge fact that needs correcting.

[2192] She was not terrible on Kimmel.

[2193] Oh, not at all.

[2194] I went back and I watched just to see.

[2195] Oh, cool.

[2196] And she was great.

[2197] She's great.

[2198] She was totally great and gregarious and charming and great.

[2199] She was as good as a non -stand -up comedian can be on a talk show.

[2200] So she's not very objective.

[2201] So that fact is checked.

[2202] Check.

[2203] Okay, the movie that had, I'll stop the world and melt with you, is Val.

[2204] Holly girl.

[2205] Oh, it is.

[2206] Yeah, you were right.

[2207] Oh, good.

[2208] It's it.

[2209] I think maybe it was on a couple things, but that is, I think Love My Way was also in that, in that movie.

[2210] And did you recall anything about Love My Way?

[2211] We did our live show in Austin.

[2212] We learned something about Love My Way.

[2213] No. I lost my virginity to love my way.

[2214] Oh, that's the song.

[2215] Life psychedelic first.

[2216] Oh, you say a lot of songs.

[2217] And songs are like white noise to me if I don't know them.

[2218] Like, it's just sounds you're making.

[2219] Yeah.

[2220] And I don't, but I can't remember any of the songs you like.

[2221] That's fair.

[2222] Yeah.

[2223] In Austin, I told the story that I had made a mixtape in preparation of losing my virginity.

[2224] And that was my favorite song on the mixtape.

[2225] And it just timed out perfectly where the actual coytis started right when Love My Way started and then ended almost immediately after that.

[2226] At the chorus at the beginning of the chorus.

[2227] Yeah, I don't think I made it to the chorus.

[2228] Yeah, it probably made you extra.

[2229] side of which you didn't really need to be.

[2230] No, I should have been playing like some um, that um, um, um, that, uh, um, um, um, um, that, um, um, um, um, um, it's, it's, like based in, uh, I don't know if you know this about the Mexican music tradition, but because there were so many German settlers, it's actually comes from, uh, polka.

[2231] So when you, yeah, when you're driving around L .A. and you hear Mexican dudes listen to their music.

[2232] And it's got a kind of a polka vibe.

[2233] It does actually.

[2234] It's got that beat.

[2235] Yeah.

[2236] Cool.

[2237] I should have put that on.

[2238] Or like when I'm watching movies set in the Middle East and they have the popular music where it's like to me, again, in my own little bubble, it sounds like someone's in her, in pain.

[2239] If I would have had that on, I would be like, oh, my God, someone helped this guy.

[2240] And I would not have been able to think.

[2241] I don't think that's racist.

[2242] I think I need a happy medium though.

[2243] Like I don't think you need to feel like there's pain and I don't think you need to be super excited.

[2244] Like maybe just a. some country and western music Sure, yeah Yeah Way down yonder on the chat A hoochie It gets hotter than a hoochie coochie We laid rubber on the Georgia Asphalt and got a little crazy But we never got caught Down by the river on a Friday night Pyramid of Cairns in the pale moonlight Talking about cars and dream by women Never had a plan Just letting for a minute Yeah I could have lasted like maybe 40 seconds to that?

[2245] Yeah.

[2246] When did I lose you in that song?

[2247] I had you at the beginning.

[2248] Then I looked over and I was like, I lost her.

[2249] But then I thought maybe the pyramid of cans and the pale moon light was going to get you back.

[2250] Because also, you're from fucking Georgia.

[2251] I know.

[2252] The song is anthemic.

[2253] It's not about the song.

[2254] Am I singing?

[2255] No, I love your singing.

[2256] But it's a little, sometimes it's hard to look at someone when they're singing.

[2257] You have a hard time.

[2258] I've, in general, I've never been a very insecure person about like doing voices or singing.

[2259] But you, you're I call I regularly look over at you and you're disgusted and it's made me a little self -conscious like we were doing voices the other day when baby was here and I kept glancing at your face and you were like on the verge of throwing up when I would do like my Australian accent I'm like no I'm sorry I just saw when you're looking at me you're like oh boy when's this song over it has nothing to do with you I'm really sorry if that is making you self -conscious it's hard it's just hard for me to look at you're not making me self -conscious I am self -conscious no I'm I No, but I'm doing something to activate that.

[2260] That's okay for you to say and for me to fix.

[2261] But I, um, it's not about what you're doing.

[2262] It's about like, it's just something in turn.

[2263] It's not, and it's not you, anyone.

[2264] If even, even like, if Kristen was sitting there and she was seeing and she was staring at me, she has the most beautiful voice of anyone in the whole world and it would make me. And a face to match.

[2265] Exactly.

[2266] And it would make me. uncomfortable.

[2267] Although I have been jealous because you Jess can make the most repulsive face in the world and you love it and you stare right at it like right in the hot white light.

[2268] You'll take you're right down the barrel on Jess's stuff and I go God she would be throwing up right now.

[2269] No, no, no, no. It's because why is it?

[2270] It's because Jess, I mean, he's just a clown.

[2271] He's a clown.

[2272] And that's like Jim Carrey.

[2273] Also, if Jess was sitting there and he was singing for a minute long at me, I would probably still feel a little uncomfortable.

[2274] Not only untrue, but I have videographic evidence because we filmed you while he's saying.

[2275] And I was - Prumpy -strumpkins.

[2276] I was laughing and uncomfortable the whole time.

[2277] Yes, with joy, though.

[2278] You didn't have the pain to look on your face like when I sing.

[2279] Also, Pipby is different.

[2280] Pipi's different.

[2281] It's not - But even if I started going, you'd come Pipby -wrong -strum, you'd start getting nervous, right?

[2282] Yeah Yeah Look all we need to be here is honest We don't have to be Yeah It's not I don't I don't I just I don't think it's you I just think well I know exactly what is You very admittedly have a big fear of doing characters Oh yeah And probably what your face looks like when you're saying Oh god yeah So it's just kind of like projection on to me Totally Yeah but it's working I'm getting like I can feel it too Sorry I'm sorry Sorry.

[2283] We laid rubber on the Georgia asphalt and got a little crazy, but we never got caught.

[2284] Well, now I don't know what to do.

[2285] You can look at me again.

[2286] I'm done singing.

[2287] Maybe I'll have a little ski mask I keep in here for when I do my character work.

[2288] Does it make you nervous when I do Frida?

[2289] No. It doesn't make me nervous when you do any of these things.

[2290] I maybe I just feel like you maybe or maybe I feel like you're expecting some sort of reaction from me and then I don't know what that is and I'm uncomfortable and I just feel uncomfortable now I can very much relate to that because quite often someone will come over and they're a very good guitar player and singer and it is standard procedure that they stare at you while they're performing and I'm like we're I need a layer between us yes a few rows or I need lights I don't think I can really give you what you need in that moment and I don't know what it is.

[2291] I don't even need anything because I'm in a zone of trying to remember the lyrics of the song and keep my voice in some kind of, you know, range that it doesn't fall apart.

[2292] Yeah.

[2293] So I'm kind of checked out.

[2294] I'm just accidentally looking at you, which is probably what the people who are performing in my living room with the guitar are also checked out.

[2295] You as a person.

[2296] How was an asshole and mom getting such a great kitchen?

[2297] That's a really good impression.

[2298] I think, you know, sometimes I'll just sit around and kind of like go through my thoughts and just think like, well, how would Owen think about this?

[2299] Because normally, like, very unconventional the way you would approach this.

[2300] You got nervous right at the end.

[2301] No, but it's a great.

[2302] That's what, it's not that it has anything to do with your impression.

[2303] Your impression's fantastic.

[2304] Thank you.

[2305] Maybe it just goes on a little long for me. Yeah, probably I'm, I'm milking it too much.

[2306] I'm going back to the well, as they would say.

[2307] Yeah.

[2308] Just in and out from now on.

[2309] It'll be like three words.

[2310] Okay, great.

[2311] Let's go like, hold on.

[2312] And then I'll eat.

[2313] I'll just stop.

[2314] Right at the moment you think that you know who I'm doing.

[2315] Sure.

[2316] I want you to do whatever you want to do, okay?

[2317] Jose Concepcion, hells from Havana, Cuba.

[2318] Where the sunshines 365 days of you missiles a pop up in the sunshine.

[2319] I really went for it.

[2320] That's a lot.

[2321] That's Michael Rosenbaum's impersonation.

[2322] I just want to give him credit.

[2323] He'll do that.

[2324] In fact, if you've spent more than 20 minutes with Rosenbaum, you've heard him do it.

[2325] I haven't.

[2326] Okay.

[2327] We need to get you in a room with him to hear it done well.

[2328] All right.

[2329] So I also looked up the opening scene of blue velvet that she referenced with the maggots.

[2330] There wasn't a rock that gets overturned, but it had that vibe where it's, you know, quintessential, pleasant suburban town.

[2331] And then someone has a heart of town.

[2332] The person, there's a person who is watering the grass, and I believe there's a kink in it, and then he has a heart attack what it looks like to me, and then you go into the grass, and then it's like disgusting, maggotry.

[2333] Yes, gross.

[2334] But it made me want to watch that movie.

[2335] I've never seen it, and I was really intrigued by that opening scene because, you know, there's the blue velvet song happening.

[2336] David Lynch movies, they require a mindset for me personally.

[2337] I have to unplug from the desire to see a narrative that is like beginning, middle end, three parts, poetics, Aristotle, and just go like, just take every moment for the moment and let your brain stop trying to figure out like where it's supposed to be going or whatever.

[2338] That's how I have learned to enjoy those movies.

[2339] Yeah.

[2340] Very.

[2341] What's when you like?

[2342] Wild at hardest.

[2343] because it combines, you know, Nick Cage.

[2344] He was my favorite all growing out.

[2345] You said, okay, at one point you were talking to her about her husband and her relationship.

[2346] And you said, anytime people go from 20 to 25, there's going to be growth, but you can't guarantee it's going to happen at the same time.

[2347] But I think you meant 20 to 45 because that's their age.

[2348] Yeah, that's their age.

[2349] Yeah.

[2350] I think I really meant 20 to 30 because I was thinking about Bree and I. I think that's what I probably meant Oh, I see Because I was kind of referencing that Because I think it was me saying like when we met I was like there's no way we're making it to 30 Without cheating on each other You did say that later but yeah I think that was still in my craw Got it Because Belle and I seem to have We've changed at a somewhat symbiotic pace But I feel like when you're younger Yeah that gap is there's a lot more kind of Yeah Dramatic path choosing Right have a lot of friends back home in high school who are married to their high school sweethearts and yeah it's just interesting to see the people when they start in the relationship and where they are now where they were in the middle and like yeah because just very generally speaking not most 22 year olds haven't figured out there let alone 16 and 14 and 15 that yeah it's rare to be able to stay with the person for that long.

[2351] Because you really don't know anything about yourself at that point when you're picking.

[2352] And just finding your lane in life career -wise.

[2353] Yeah, you don't know anything.

[2354] Have you, you know, have you, do you have a good diet now?

[2355] All these weird things you end up having to confront towards the end of your 20s.

[2356] Like, oh, I'm starting to gain weight pretty quick.

[2357] I guess I can't eat at McDonald's three days.

[2358] Right.

[2359] Three times a day.

[2360] Yeah.

[2361] You know, those decisions start presenting themselves very quickly at the end of year 20s.

[2362] Yeah.

[2363] Like, am I going to stick with this?

[2364] Am I going to smoke cigarettes forever?

[2365] Am I going to drink forever?

[2366] Am I going to eat shitty food forever?

[2367] All these things.

[2368] Not that McDonald's is shitty.

[2369] We'd love to have them as a sponsor.

[2370] So every now and then I'll go over there and I'll just get a big Mac and you've heard me order it.

[2371] How do what do I get?

[2372] Extra sauce, extra cheese.

[2373] Extra extra.

[2374] Extra extra.

[2375] Read all about it.

[2376] Yeah.

[2377] We like the fries too.

[2378] Especially if you've had food poisoning or the flu.

[2379] It's the best food back.

[2380] Yeah.

[2381] I had it day one back.

[2382] a few weeks ago, when I was ill. After our Nirmavirus?

[2383] Actually, no, I didn't have it after that.

[2384] You craved it, though.

[2385] I think I did.

[2386] You told me you had craved it.

[2387] Yeah.

[2388] Because then we went to a different food institution, not crystals and not McDonald's, not a place that we ended up being very happy at.

[2389] And they didn't have fries like I wanted.

[2390] So, yeah, the book is called mating in captivity.

[2391] mating in captivity, unlocking erotic intelligence by Esther Perel.

[2392] I'm going to add to that fact because Catherine text me, I think last night, to tell me that the people who wrote that book also have a podcast called Where Should We Begin, which is supposed to be phenomenal.

[2393] Oh, great.

[2394] Yeah, by the authors of that book.

[2395] All right.

[2396] Check it out.

[2397] I don't know.

[2398] Singular plural.

[2399] Check it out using Spotify.

[2400] Check it out.

[2401] I have some bad news.

[2402] Oh, I love bad news.

[2403] I know.

[2404] The Arthur is not with us.

[2405] Oh, she's not with us.

[2406] No. She died in 2009 to cancer.

[2407] Oof.

[2408] Yeah.

[2409] That was bad news.

[2410] Yeah.

[2411] I wish you could have said she got hit by a bus or something.

[2412] That's the bad news that she only had cancer.

[2413] She didn't have a pretty outrageous death.

[2414] didn't try like getting launched out of a canyon at a state a canyon a cannon at a state fair to like raise awareness for puppy mills and then it went sideways she collided with another cannon person being shot out of a cannon they like didn't schedule it properly two opposing cannons went up you know that's a nice dream right to get shot out of a cannon we we've had a 30 year plan that if we were lucky enough to die on the same day, our will states clearly that our funeral should be us dressed in superhero outfits in opposing cannons and they fire them at the same time.

[2415] And then our limp bodies just collide in midair and then fall gracelessly to the ground like two birds that had heart attacks.

[2416] Oh my God.

[2417] I'm excited for that day.

[2418] And then we have individual.

[2419] We have an obligation to one another based on who dies first.

[2420] Like mine is, should he still be around, that I will be dressed in a superhero outfit.

[2421] And then tied to a chair on railroad tracks.

[2422] And then the train quickly approaches and you're waiting for the superhero to get out.

[2423] But of course, I'm dead.

[2424] So then you just watch my limp body just get scared by a freight train.

[2425] It's really funny too, isn't it?

[2426] And then errands is very peculiar.

[2427] So we will all be gathered in a field.

[2428] a big, grassy green field.

[2429] Beautiful.

[2430] You don't even know where Aaron's corpse is.

[2431] And then I will find the three most snagletooth ragged hillbillies you can find.

[2432] Okay.

[2433] They'll pull up in an old F -150 pickup truck.

[2434] They'll get out and they'll drop the tailgate.

[2435] They'll pull Aaron's corpse out and then they'll all have shovels and picks and stuff.

[2436] And then they'll just start abusing the body in front of us.

[2437] Oh, wow.

[2438] Uh -huh.

[2439] And they'll just take the corpse to task.

[2440] And everyone has to watch this.

[2441] They do.

[2442] Yeah.

[2443] Okay.

[2444] Yeah.

[2445] Sounds a little sadistic.

[2446] Just watching like three guys from deliverance.

[2447] Just, you know, take the body to task.

[2448] I love the idea that you guys just sat around and concocted the...

[2449] We did a tremendous amount of mushrooms together in our 20s.

[2450] That's probably why I don't have a death fantasy like that.

[2451] Maybe.

[2452] One of the many benefits.

[2453] Yeah.

[2454] Okay.

[2455] You know, because they say a sustained creativity.

[2456] is one of the benefits.

[2457] You have said that, yeah.

[2458] And that is a creative way to have a funeral.

[2459] That is true.

[2460] I almost wish I'm going to add to it today.

[2461] I'm going to add to the fantasy is that after the train smashes my body, I have a tuba player that that plays.

[2462] Like, hope he didn't get out in time.

[2463] Oh, my God.

[2464] I, um, we're watching.

[2465] I'm watching Castle Rock currently, and there was a scene the other day an image of a school bus getting hit by a train.

[2466] Mm -hmm.

[2467] And I've been thinking about that image ever since.

[2468] Oh, you have?

[2469] Mm -hmm.

[2470] It's been in my brain in a not good way, yeah.

[2471] Oh, wow.

[2472] Yeah, in a not very, I don't think, healthy way.

[2473] I envy the way you get sucked into these shows and Kristen, because you guys, like, come out of your skin during the pop.

[2474] Oh my God.

[2475] They're so scary.

[2476] Yeah.

[2477] And I'm really jealous that I can't have that heightened experience that you're having.

[2478] I'm surprised you're not.

[2479] I'm in my living room.

[2480] Well, I'm in my living room.

[2481] It doesn't pop out into my living room.

[2482] It pops out into this little rectangle on my wall.

[2483] I don't know, but it's still, you're expecting one thing and then something else happens.

[2484] It's jarring.

[2485] Yeah, but I don't need to physically move my body because the thing is in my living room.

[2486] It's on the little It's just I can't get to the point you're at where you you need to move your body.

[2487] Yeah, I mean, it's all involuntary, obviously.

[2488] Right, which just lets me know you're experiencing it on a much deeper level than me. Did you ever go through haunted houses?

[2489] Yeah.

[2490] Did you like them?

[2491] No, I mean, I like them, but I've never recoiled or jumped now.

[2492] What?

[2493] Because I enter the thing knowing legally they can't assault me. Yeah, that's what I also say as I'm going through it.

[2494] But it's just, it has nothing to do with the consequence.

[2495] It's just the act of expectation getting ripped out from under you.

[2496] Well, and again, my expectation entering the thing is that a bunch of knuckleheads are going to jump out in bloody sheets with chainsaws with no chains on them.

[2497] That's true.

[2498] I don't know when.

[2499] I guess I'm impressed and nervous that you don't have any reaction to pop outs.

[2500] I've had them in real life.

[2501] Like one time Josh Dumas while we were shooting in New York, he hit in a like in a doorway.

[2502] And I was walking back from the craft service at night.

[2503] And he was in a doorway and he jumped out at me. And I had a very physical reaction.

[2504] You did.

[2505] You did.

[2506] Okay.

[2507] That's good then.

[2508] Maybe it's just when you watch things you, you don't.

[2509] I guess don't buy in as much.

[2510] Yeah.

[2511] Which, again, is why I'm envious.

[2512] It'd be fun to buy in that much.

[2513] Right.

[2514] I wish I had more of years because I get scared.

[2515] Then I get scared to walk from my car to my door.

[2516] And then you're scared in your apartment.

[2517] And I'm scared in my bed.

[2518] And then I'm scared thinking about the bus.

[2519] In my Brooklyn sheets.

[2520] Okay.

[2521] Oh, you said of the 150 ,000 years, we've lived here, we've lived here for over 140 ,000.

[2522] We were not monogamous.

[2523] The modern monogamous culture has only been around for just a thousand years.

[2524] The modern monogamous.

[2525] Modern monogamous, says an evolutionary anthropologist from the United States.

[2526] University College of London.

[2527] Not a real college, but still a cool statement.

[2528] I'm teasing, I'm teasing.

[2529] I don't know.

[2530] It's probably a great college.

[2531] Probably the best college.

[2532] Okay, so a thousand years.

[2533] Yeah, which is interesting.

[2534] It is interesting because we have royalty that predates a thousand years.

[2535] They might not have been in a lot.

[2536] Oh, yeah, you're right.

[2537] They probably had concubines and shit.

[2538] Yeah.

[2539] But point remains a very unnatural way for us to live and new.

[2540] I agree.

[2541] I don't think I'm going to do it.

[2542] Don't do it.

[2543] You can reject it.

[2544] That's what's so exciting about being a human being on planet Earth is occasionally you can decide to reject some principle.

[2545] I love that.

[2546] What's weird, though, is that you are admittedly kind of a jealous person.

[2547] So like when you're going to be hard.

[2548] Yeah.

[2549] I think you don't believe in it for you, but you probably believe in it for your partner.

[2550] No, no, no. I wouldn't want.

[2551] I would not be like I would offer him the same thing that I was.

[2552] But it would be very hard for you.

[2553] It would be hard, but I, I, I, intellectually, I do not agree with it.

[2554] And it would be hard for me probably because I'm jealous.

[2555] Yeah.

[2556] But, you know, why it would be hard.

[2557] The reason it would be hard is the, is the thing that we talked about at the beginning.

[2558] Uh -huh.

[2559] That's the only reason it would be hard.

[2560] I, I do not think I would have any problem with, like, the physical, the physical acts or any of, like, I don't care about that.

[2561] happen.

[2562] I do care that I would like to work on it.

[2563] I work on it in therapy, but obviously I'm not doing good job.

[2564] I have a complex about needing to be everyone's number one.

[2565] That's a recurring thing in my life.

[2566] So that would be hard.

[2567] But if it was my husband and I knew that I was, I might, I don't know if I would.

[2568] Well, that's very much how I felt with Bree.

[2569] Yeah.

[2570] I had no question in my mind that that was number one.

[2571] I wasn't really bothered by.

[2572] Yeah, that's sort of, if I, if I have that security.

[2573] I think I'm number one in Kristen's mind.

[2574] I'm so I'm not very nervous about her doing something.

[2575] Yeah.

[2576] I think that's the more important thing to feel secure in that way.

[2577] And if I had that, I don't think I would care about the other stuff.

[2578] As long as I wasn't getting any STDs.

[2579] I don't want any STDs in my bed.

[2580] No big deal.

[2581] We've got doctors.

[2582] I don't want that.

[2583] And my, I mean, they can wear a condom if they're going to do that.

[2584] But listen, the thing you'd have to get comfortable with is people will occupy a portion of your partner in a way that you can't.

[2585] And they will value aspects of that person way above you.

[2586] But you have to, or in my experience, you have to look at the sum of all that.

[2587] So it's like, oh, yeah, I get it.

[2588] That person's way more interesting in that category for her, and that's very stimulating.

[2589] But I do think over a long enough timeline, the things he doesn't have that I have will show its head soon enough.

[2590] And then she'll just recognize, oh, that's not enough, that one thing.

[2591] Yeah.

[2592] I'm tooting a lot over here, and I'm nervous.

[2593] I'm letting little toots out over here in hopes that they don't end up smelling and making their way to you.

[2594] I don't smell or hear them Okay, great They're very minuscule They're like tremors for earthquakes Okay All right I don't think any one of them is registered more than like a 2 .0 I don't think so because I haven't felt any rumbling Okay Nothing offensive in the air Okay Any more facts That's pretty much it Facts are tasty They taste nice I know That's pretty much it Thousand years of current monogamy My favorite part Let me talk about Nanette a little bit Oh uh -huh My favorite thing that she says Is not really about the men Well, it is a little bit, but But she says I built a career out of self -deprecation I don't want to do that anymore Because you understand what self -deprecation Means from somebody who already exists in the margins It's not humility, it's humiliation Oh yeah, I like that too And I really liked that and I think it was dead on.

[2595] I don't think anyone will make it this far in the podcast because we're like at the four hour marker.

[2596] But one follow -up thought I've had a couple times after we've had these conversations that I want to get out there.

[2597] Which I think is relevant is I would imagine if I'm you or I'm Nanette or I'm anyone in one of these marginalized groups who is the victim of a systematic patriarchal white male world, I bet it'd be easy for you to miss that we too are terrible victims of it.

[2598] So I would bet even on a higher percentage, the people that were the victims of white males where I grew up were other white males.

[2599] Like there were a whole strata of kids who beat the fuck out of other kids.

[2600] Like the vast majority of the kids in my junior high were victims.

[2601] They weren't the reigning male.

[2602] They too were victims.

[2603] was molested by a white male like it it we're not excluded from it either no one is saying that this is the thing that we bump up against all the time you i feel like every time someone says something about uh honkies no about a marginalized group you assume that that means that they were excluding we're ignoring white people that's not what it is it's that white people it's seen all the time and this is just saying these are these are some other groups that are having issues and this is why and these are the things we can change the reaction I guess yeah I get you're right the thing that I'm fearful of is that you think I can't relate but I can say that I've gotten beat up by cops in my hometown I've like I can relate to being scared of the white hegemonic dudes who have the power I've been the victim of that so I can relate and it feels like I'm disinvited to relate.

[2604] And again, maybe all this is my all my own egocentric desire to be bonding with people when I'm not being invited to bond with them.

[2605] It's just, it's conflicting to me because I can relate.

[2606] I know what, like the Me Too movement, I do have a fucking voice in the Me Too movement because I got molested by a dude, a white dude who had the power.

[2607] So it's like, I agree.

[2608] It's weird for me to hear that debate.

[2609] go on publicly and think that I don't have a voice in it when I very much have been the victim of it.

[2610] No one, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't know, I don't heard that you can't be in the conversation.

[2611] I feel like you have decided that and you say that a lot and I don't necessarily think that's true.

[2612] I don't think anyone's trying to silence anyone.

[2613] That's the whole, that is literally the whole point of this.

[2614] And let me recognize, I sound like someone saying white lives matter too, which is so stupid because I agree, everyone's always known white lives matter that it's on the front page of every newspaper so it doesn't require a movement to remind people white lives matter exactly it does require a movement pathetically so that we say black lives matter so i recognize i sound like that i just want to check when i recognize i sound like yeah which is good and i don't need anyone to feel bad for me i guess yeah it's just i guarantee it's my endless desire to be a part of every group yeah you know you know Yeah.

[2615] I think it's just choosing the way you say it.

[2616] Like if you say it like that, like I, on a human level, I relate because of this.

[2617] I recognize it's not the exact same thing.

[2618] But I've experienced stuff like that too.

[2619] And it sucks.

[2620] There also has to be that whole thing.

[2621] Yeah.

[2622] I mean, I guess, yeah.

[2623] I just, I'm wrong.

[2624] I guess you do know that the power tripping white male picks on everybody.

[2625] He's not just picking on certain groups.

[2626] It's just pretty pervasively, I'm in authority and I'm going to fuck with you.

[2627] Right.

[2628] And it's terrible.

[2629] But, yeah, the white male that's getting picked on might also be the white male that then does it again and has, and is easier to do it.

[2630] Whatever, I don't know.

[2631] I've admitted that on here.

[2632] It's like, my whole memory of childhood is a list of people I think bullied me. And then I just easily lob off the fact that a good amount of people probably feel bullied by me. Yeah.

[2633] Which is horrific for me to acknowledge.

[2634] Yeah.

[2635] But certainly there's a group of a dozen kids that would be happy to stand up and go, no, motherfucker, you did this to me. You know, I'm sure I passed it on.

[2636] A part of the conversation that it feels a little bit, it just feels like defensiveness when I don't think it is defensiveness.

[2637] But it comes off that way if you don't say, yeah, they're terrible to everyone.

[2638] I experience this.

[2639] That has to change.

[2640] It's bad.

[2641] That's this.

[2642] There has to be the qualifier.

[2643] It can't feel like, well, they're doing it to everyone so well, which is sort of how it comes off.

[2644] If you don't finish the sentence, which is that and it's terrible and it has to stop.

[2645] Yeah.

[2646] For everyone.

[2647] Mm -hmm.

[2648] I think the answer lies somehow, though, not in ethnicity, gender, color, sexual orientation, but lies within systems.

[2649] It's like the systems we design going forward in the future have to not be hierarchical in the way they've always been.

[2650] It's like they started as feudal lords and we've inched forward and we've, you know, people have gotten more agency and autonomy along the way.

[2651] But that is, I mean, again, it's why I was.

[2652] endlessly talk about how thrilling the A .A. structure is that no one's in charge.

[2653] Like, I think our systems, because I do believe, and you can see this all around the world in every different country with every color person, anywhere there's a power structure, people are abusing it.

[2654] It's just the nature of us primates.

[2655] Yeah.

[2656] And I sometimes feel like we're hanging a little too much of it on identity or group identity and it's it's more a human power dynamic issue and in the solution lies in the structure of the systems yeah i love you i love you hey for the last person who hung in there with us thanks for sticking around yeah we love you we know it was a long one yeah hopefully you were driving from utah to saskatoon florida oh hopefully we were your only option love you Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[2657] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

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