76 - My Own Sinkhole

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Hey, this is exciting.

[2] An all -new season of only murders in the building is coming to Hulu on August 27th.

[3] Steve Martin, Martin Short, and Selena Gomez are back as your favorite podcaster, detectives.

[4] But there's a mystery hanging over everyone.

[5] Who killed Saz?

[6] And were they really after Charles?

[7] Why would someone want to kill Charles?

[8] This season, murder hits close to home.

[9] With a threat against one of their own, the stakes are higher than ever.

[10] Plus, the gang is going to Hollywood to turn their podcast into a major movie.

[11] Amid the glitz and glamour of Los Angeles, more mysteries and twists arise.

[12] Who knows what will happen once the cameras start to roll?

[13] Get ready for the stariest season yet with Meryl Streep, Zach Alfinacus, Eugene Levy, Eva Longoria, Melissa McCarthy, DeVine, Joy Randolph, Molly Shannon, and more.

[14] Only Martyrs in the Building, premieres August 27th, streaming only on Hulu.

[15] Goodbye.

[16] Sarah Audio Happy Fourth of July.

[17] Hello.

[18] wait let's start over it's not fourth of july anymore so oh oh happy 5th of july it's not the 5th it's the 6th oh and welcome to my favorite murderer hi welcome thanks for coming that's karen kill garrup why do we always start it with like it's super uncomfortable we've gone over this a million times we're staring at each other for many seconds waiting we just stare at each other to see who's going to go first and then the fakesest voices that we have to offer her come out of our heads and then we asked to start over um but we don't and we never plan anything i mean what what are you going to plan what are you going to plan i mean we have an ending what more do you want who cares anyway yeah of all the things have you seen that picture the newest pictures that have come back from the Hubble telescope that show the galaxies they're purple they did it basically it's like black background um they did purple were the galaxies in the picture picture and orange was the gas the different things of gas that make stars and it like there's a countless number of galaxies in this photo you're giving me an anxiety attack I'm just saying who cares what we how we start this podcast we're star dust did or amade of stars I we really I can't even start to think about it wait that is it the the vastness of space gives you anxiety the vastness of space the reality of life what is it what are we are we're aliens clearly i mean everyone is i'm not i'm not i'm actually irish which is worse and harder um there's you know that podcast we love mysteries abound that we go to sleep too the like in the last episode is like are are humans actually aliens and it's like yes i got so into that episode that when i landed when i went to petaluma for father's day when I landed and Lauren Adrian came and picked me up, I got into the car and was like, so the thing is that there's a really good chance we're all aliens.

[19] I said that to Vince too, and I explained it very poorly.

[20] He was like, I don't know.

[21] Yeah.

[22] I don't.

[23] And then I turned to him and one night when Elvis was sitting on me and I said, do you think cats are alien?

[24] He was just like, no. I am the weird one in the relationship.

[25] He is the like, what's it called?

[26] He's the voice of reason?

[27] Yes.

[28] Yeah.

[29] Oh, speaking of which, there's a reason we can never think of the word trophy.

[30] And I would like to say, I would like to take responsibility for it, because I think every time it's happened, it's been in my story where we can't.

[31] So like a serial killer takes trophies.

[32] Yeah, they take a thing, they keep it so they can look at it and remember the bad thing they did.

[33] That's called a trophy.

[34] Okay, but it's the word memento, which is what we use, this is the fucking same word.

[35] Yeah, but I guess, I guess the most often used term and the ones that people, people tweet to us in all caps with 17 exclamation points after is trophy.

[36] Yeah.

[37] So maybe here in the podcasting loft, which we finally moved into and everyone, are you going to ever tweet picture or put pictures on Instagram?

[38] Yeah.

[39] I just like didn't feel like it was done yet, but I should just post it.

[40] It's so good.

[41] You guys, all of the awesome art you sent us and dolls you've made us and pictures and everything, Georgia has arranged in her loft obsessively and it it looks so cool it's super fun I'll put it up on social media but there's like things I want to frame still and things I need to put up here and there but I'll post it for now and there's also a drawing of a let's sit crooked and talk straight drawing and I thought it was so funny when I hung it crooked yes well I saw it immediately and it made me laugh it's driving me crazy like as a as a fuck and CD person, but it's got a point.

[42] There's a reason it's that way.

[43] There's a reason.

[44] I don't need to download the app that is a measure, a leveler.

[45] Ooh, they have that.

[46] I can have that.

[47] Dude.

[48] You can have an app for anything.

[49] I know.

[50] Man, when the grid goes down, we're gonna.

[51] We're screwed beyond belief.

[52] Nothing will be straightened.

[53] No frames will be straight.

[54] And that you won't know, even if there are like land lines, if they can get a hard line in some way.

[55] Could you, do you know even your own phone number anymore?

[56] Yeah.

[57] Oh.

[58] Do you know mine?

[59] No. Vince and I purposely memorized each other's, and I'm going to give it out right now.

[60] Okay, great.

[61] Please call us day or night?

[62] Do you know what I, like I'm super prepared, trying to prepare for earthquakes, you know?

[63] And so I got like, this is boring.

[64] This is so boring.

[65] Nobody cares.

[66] Right as I take a huge sip of Diet Coke thinking you're going to cover for at least 30 seconds.

[67] No. Preparing for earthquakes is necessary and a reality in California.

[68] What would you do?

[69] buy some flashlights come on josh it up a little bit have a flashlight i have a external batteries in my car and in my the hand crank kind no no no for the phone like like that have a charge on oh oh right listen everyone be prepared yeah that's it's very important yeah i have a like a and i have an earthquake kit in my front closet i have one too but all i think of is what if that's the part of the house that goes down dude i have one in the loft and i'm like clearly the loft is going to collapse.

[70] What is it doing here?

[71] I stick flashlights under everything in my whole house.

[72] Smart.

[73] And I've actually, when I bought my house, I had to sign a piece of paper declaring that I understood that my house is on land, that if there's a strong enough earthquake, it turns to liquid and sinks into the earth.

[74] What?

[75] I will get my own sinkhole, which is, as many people know, one of my great passions of life is sinkholes.

[76] Well, I have a question.

[77] What kind of liquid are we talking about?

[78] Because it's something fun.

[79] like Kool -Aid, then I'm like, great.

[80] Yes, I have, there's a Kool -Aid spring underneath my house.

[81] No, it's because I'm near the quote -unquote L .A. River, there's...

[82] You mean the one that's feet from my door?

[83] Yes.

[84] Well, that goes right up kind of near my house if you go north.

[85] And that creates the water table is right, I guess, close to under my house.

[86] So basically, if the ground shakes, the kind of silt or whatever ground is under my house, will just mix with the water become like quick sand.

[87] Goodbye.

[88] And goodbye.

[89] And goodbye.

[90] And good night.

[91] So just things to...

[92] Skippers.

[93] Come back.

[94] Skippers.

[95] This is what you need to know the most.

[96] Skippers in places where there isn't and won't be earthquakes ever.

[97] Hi.

[98] You never know, though.

[99] Do you think there's a geologist who listens?

[100] Is that an earthquake, doctor?

[101] Yes, definitely.

[102] Okay.

[103] You're going to email, so you are completely incorrect about all of this information.

[104] I signed paperwork.

[105] Listen.

[106] Speaking of, I'm not, oh, experts, that's right.

[107] I have a letter, an email from a girl who, so I did the mainline murders, the fucking insane mainline murders last week.

[108] Yes.

[109] And the girl whose dad was involved in the case emailed us.

[110] Whoa.

[111] Okay.

[112] I'm so excited when you covered the mainline murders in your last episode.

[113] As my dad was very closely involved in the case, he prosecuted Karen Reinhart's lover, William Bradford, patches.

[114] Patches the professor.

[115] Yeah, for stealing from her estate.

[116] So the one thing he got in the beginning.

[117] Um, he described Bradfield as a master manipulator and a truly evil man, despite being a prosecutor for over 30 years and putting hundreds of murders behind bars, including billionaire murderer John DuPont.

[118] Ooh.

[119] Wait, wait, is that the fox catcher guy?

[120] Hell, yes.

[121] My dad says no case has ever affected him quite like this one.

[122] He's a father of four daughters, and he still tears up when he talks about the kids, the innocent children and the discovery of Karen's Art Museum pin on the floor of the car.

[123] And by the way, I accidentally called her Carol at the very end of it.

[124] And that's just horrible.

[125] You were off the page, though.

[126] You were just trying to talk.

[127] Yes, that's always a mistake.

[128] It's the mistake that we're dedicated to making on that.

[129] Yes, never apologize for.

[130] Like, I just apologize.

[131] So Patches and Principal Smith were co -conspirators, he thinks, and that Patches had agreed, I'm just calling them this, agreed to split Karen's life insurance money with Principal in exchange for killing Karen and her children.

[132] To this day, he's still heartbroken over the police, mishandling the evidence that led to Jay Smith's conviction and being thrown out.

[133] Thank you guys so much, et cetera, et cetera, John Meney, JFK.

[134] Thanks again, stay sexy, don't get murder, Brianna.

[135] P .S., and And Stephen said he asked, can I read this, Stephen?

[136] Oh, no, you're going to be embarrassed.

[137] It's fine.

[138] I don't want to embarrass you.

[139] Say it, and then we'll decide after.

[140] Okay, we can cut it out, Stephen.

[141] P .S. is Steven Stingle?

[142] Nope, I said that wrong.

[143] Is Stephen stinky?

[144] Yes, totally.

[145] Is Stephen single?

[146] Oh, sorry, Stephen, I'm going to take this one.

[147] Wait, can we say that?

[148] You can cut this out, obviously.

[149] You're in charge of this whole show.

[150] We'll get everything out.

[151] Well, there's got so many, so many.

[152] listeners like this yeah inquiring minds he's a cat guy which lots of girls like but don't mistake that for innocence or or any kind of uh not a pussy don't mistake his kindness for gentleness what is the saying don't mistake my weakness for kindness i like that i saw that one time on tumbler i dig it right stephen this is going to be in my dating profile that whole clip of this podcast the whole thing fit on a Tinder volume.

[153] Where are you going?

[154] Are you going to Tinder?

[155] Let everyone know.

[156] Oh, I don't, I haven't decided yet.

[157] Okay.

[158] I think you should take it over to, um, what's it called?

[159] Too many fish?

[160] Is that it?

[161] Is that it?

[162] Plenty of fish.

[163] Plenty of fish.

[164] There are too many fish.

[165] I don't like fish.

[166] So I feel like there's too many fish.

[167] That's true.

[168] Yeah, Stephen, religion.

[169] That's really important to you.

[170] I mean, I am a Satanist.

[171] So bring that act over to too many fish.

[172] And then, you know, make it happen.

[173] Speaking of traveling.

[174] Can I just say one thing really quick?

[175] At the end of that email, did she start calling the woman Karen?

[176] Because Karen was the daughter.

[177] Yeah.

[178] Now I know only because somebody that has my name.

[179] No, no, no. She said the discovery of Karen's art museum pin at the floor of the car.

[180] So the kids, the kid, the girl named Karen, yeah.

[181] But then later on?

[182] Yeah, you're right.

[183] Yeah, you're right.

[184] She may have.

[185] No, you're right.

[186] She did.

[187] Fuck yeah.

[188] Not just me. Right.

[189] I just want to make sure.

[190] So the, I know, I feel awful.

[191] The mothers, no, this isn't right.

[192] Okay, anyways, here we go.

[193] Well, just so, just so they know we didn't do it.

[194] Yeah, should we start?

[195] That was just a run -through.

[196] I'm going to say this.

[197] The Cleveland murderinos had a meet -up.

[198] They sent us pictures.

[199] They sent us video.

[200] There's a bunch of them.

[201] They're a good -looking group.

[202] They were all in a bar.

[203] Enthusiasmatic.

[204] And a lot of people were tweeting.

[205] just saying what a great group it was, how happy it made them to be a part of it.

[206] Other people were writing saying, hey, I didn't know.

[207] I wish I was there.

[208] And they ended up collecting $500 for end the backlog.

[209] That is amazing.

[210] Which is so cool.

[211] So thank you guys so much.

[212] And congratulations and way to go because that really makes a difference.

[213] That's lovely.

[214] Yeah.

[215] That's nice.

[216] Des Moines.

[217] Sorry.

[218] De Moines.

[219] Sorry, guys.

[220] Sorry we're talking shit.

[221] I actually have no idea what it's like there.

[222] it's lovely.

[223] Yeah, I think I was like a great place.

[224] And I think there was an Iowa meetup too where they went and saw a despicable me together.

[225] And so does a photo.

[226] And I'm like, what's cool?

[227] You don't have to make a bunch of cocktails with any like funny names.

[228] You just go watch a movie.

[229] That's so good.

[230] There was a somebody sent, I can't tell if he, it was the person that sent it was wearing the sweatshirt because he kind of looked like a model or if it was just showing the picture of a sweatshirt.

[231] But you can get a sweatshirt that says Des Moines, D -U -A -A.

[232] like it's basically spelled phonetically but also du moines which made me laugh really hard yeah well so we're you know guess we're going to to moines no we're not we're on each other's radar we might yeah we're gonna yeah yeah um speaking of traveling Stephen is coming with us to Australia that's right everyone I don't think we've announced that yet so don't look so um okay there's a friend of a friend of Vince this girl named Sarah A and she is a leather worker and she sent us some handmade, what are they called?

[233] Passport covers in leather.

[234] Smell that.

[235] It's like, oh, and they say S -S -D -G -M.

[236] And they say S -S -S -T -G -M.

[237] And her name, her Martine is the name of the company.

[238] It's M -A -R -T -I -N -E.

[239] So they're really beautiful.

[240] With the big rabbit head is the symbol.

[241] it's like classy like the classiest thing martin i've ever had ssdgm that's gorgeous and cool i know it's not nice um sarah sarah i was gonna call her martin thank you so much this is we're all gonna be matchy matchy i know we're gonna just walk through security just like yeah they're like oh upgrade them i'm gonna hold mine like it like those FBI agents did and they flip their thing open learn how to flip your thing open with one hand do you have i don't i'm taking over this thing Oh, can I say one more thing about murderina?

[242] So on Instagram, they're having, I guess, a thing called a lettering challenge, which I didn't know was a thing.

[243] It's all these people who are, like, written to calligraphy and, like, write in, like, lettering, I guess is a thing.

[244] And so they're having my favorite murder lettering challenge.

[245] I guess there's, like, a whole, it's a whole community.

[246] They have challenges for, like, the month.

[247] And so it's hashtag letter MFM.

[248] And I think I found my, the girl who was going to design my tattoo, my favorite murder tattoo from it.

[249] Oh, that's great.

[250] So do you want to get one with me or should I?

[251] surprise you.

[252] That is so fucking weird.

[253] Why?

[254] I had a dream the other night that everyone in my family was getting a tattoo together and I would in the dream I was like really aunt Mary in your mid 70s like I was just looking around at my family like and you know what we were getting a tattoo of some toes.

[255] What does that mean?

[256] I don't know I'll look it up but uh yes I'll get a tattoo with you girl together yes okay can I want to get mine all across my one haunch just my whole hip front to back i think i'm going to get mine like what's this called under my armpit side of my body ribs i love it and then i'm going to get a s dgm and this chick who does calligraphy really well who i'll shout out when i get the tattoo i'm going to have i'm having her design something maybe i'll get it on my neck are you serious no my um i used to know a guy that used to call neck tattoos job stoppers yeah they have hand tattoos but i don't think that's true anymore because how many chefs do you see with neck tattoos or like podcasters i mean people who are tatted up are like yeah fuck you i run my entire company i have a face tattoo deal with it get and i make more money than you and your dad combined my own boss too bad your dad needs okay oh do you know my dad is driving lift now and he said i'll i keep wondering if all these young girls who get in my are murderinos.

[257] That sounded like he was going to kill them at first.

[258] Yeah, he has to be careful with how he brings that up.

[259] Yeah, so if you see Marty picking up on Lyft.

[260] Marty.

[261] I think that's all for you.

[262] Let me see.

[263] I think it's Stephen has a...

[264] I was going to say, there's a little fun thing for us based on last week's story on your story, Karen.

[265] I know it's July right now, but I think it's never too early for us.

[266] Okay.

[267] All right.

[268] What is it?

[269] the Andy Williams Christmas special Holy shit Claudine Lange's first husband And this was the one that like Was it was it that it was this is the highest ranking television show Before we got knocked out by some Super Bowls Yes yeah yeah this is the classics This is when we spend a weekend Watching this That is amazing Do we save it for Christmas just to get in the air?

[270] A July Christmas special event yeah thank you so much wait someone sent it to us or did you get it i got it yeah i got it oh stephen really good gift given you're now invited to watch it with us um yeah that you just qualified i'm the only one that didn't bring presents for everybody why i didn't fucking buy these oh you didn't no she fuck you then she sent them to us oh her own accord oh i thought you would like oh no no no a friend of events does this thing so she sent us these lovely things so nice yeah oh god i'm glad i clarified that because i didn't want to take responsibility for her.

[271] Okay, good.

[272] Yeah.

[273] Okay, I'm guilt free.

[274] No, I wouldn't buy us anything.

[275] Ever?

[276] We have everything we need.

[277] Ever?

[278] We have a sink whole house.

[279] I have a cat podcast.

[280] What more do we need?

[281] I am.

[282] That's all we need, you know.

[283] We are blessed.

[284] Truly blessed.

[285] Truly, truly, truly.

[286] Okay, it's me this week, right?

[287] Yeah.

[288] Yes.

[289] I knew.

[290] Now you know.

[291] Stephen's not fucking paying attention.

[292] I was trying to look up who.

[293] I definitely went first.

[294] Yeah.

[295] Yes.

[296] Because now we're all back.

[297] we're all like we're all on it again what's a bummer though and i think that we have this often is that mine is a real bummer at the end and i hate closing with a real bummer just yeah but then we have something that's why we have a positive that's why we turn it hard we take a hard left into positive land yeah people don't like when murder podcasts are a real bummer they don't no they do yeah that's the whole point hey this is exciting an all new season of only murders in the building is coming to hulu on august 27th steve martin martin short and Selena Gomez are back as your favorite podcaster, detectives.

[298] But there's a mystery hanging over everyone.

[299] Who killed Saz?

[300] And were they really after Charles?

[301] Why would someone want to kill Charles?

[302] This season, murder hits close to home.

[303] With a threat against one of their own, the stakes are higher than ever.

[304] Plus, the gang is going to Hollywood to turn their podcast into a major movie.

[305] Amid the glitz and glamour of Los Angeles, more mysteries and twists arise.

[306] Who knows what will happen once the cameras start to roll?

[307] Get ready for the stariest season yet with Merrill Street.

[308] Zach Alfinacus, Eugene Levy, Eva Longoria, Melissa McCarthy, Devine, Joy Randolph, Molly Shannon, and more.

[309] Only Martyrs in the Building, premieres August 27th, streaming only on Hulu.

[310] Goodbye.

[311] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[312] Absolutely.

[313] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash?

[314] Exactly.

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[327] Important note, that promo code is all lowercase.

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[329] That's Shopify .com slash murder.

[330] Goodbye.

[331] Um, okay.

[332] Mine is, it's hard sometimes, as we've talked about.

[333] to get for me to get my homework done.

[334] No, it's, yeah.

[335] And especially when I will work on something for a while.

[336] And then if I have a friend who goes, have you ever heard of this one?

[337] I will switch immediately and go do my friends.

[338] I switch, I switch, you know, you're halfway done.

[339] It's not like you're just reading about it.

[340] No. I switch all the time.

[341] Yeah.

[342] And, and so many of these stories, because, you know, you guys are just as into true crime, if not more than either of us.

[343] So oftentimes you feel like I'm only telling a third of this story.

[344] I know there's so much more.

[345] I should have read an entire book about this, whatever.

[346] That's what other people do.

[347] So sometimes I'll bail just because I know a story has much more to it and I should invest more time.

[348] You're not going to do it justice.

[349] Right, exactly.

[350] Someone else already has.

[351] But this one was so juicy and I loved it so much.

[352] My friend Bridger is the one who told me about it.

[353] He's hilarious.

[354] He's very famous on Twitter and he's a great writer.

[355] And he grew up in Utah.

[356] So he was like, have you ever heard of this one?

[357] And I had never heard anything about it.

[358] Turns out there's a forensic files.

[359] There's lots of stuff.

[360] There's an amazing book.

[361] But anyway, I'll just give you, I'll give you what I know.

[362] So we're in Salt Lake City.

[363] Okay.

[364] What's this, is it called, is it called anything?

[365] I'm not going to call it anything because I usually do that and then I end up giving it away.

[366] Yes, I totally understand.

[367] Okay.

[368] So we're in Salt Lake City.

[369] the morning of October 15th, 1985.

[370] Okay.

[371] A man named Steve Christensen, who is a businessman, a husband, a father of four, and a bishop of the Mormon church.

[372] He arrives at his office on the sixth floor of the judge building in downtown Salt Lake City.

[373] One time I did a story, and it was that horrible one about the woman throwing her kids off the top of the hotel.

[374] In Utah.

[375] In Salt Lake City, even.

[376] Right.

[377] And in that, I threw out the random idea that it was a very because, you know, all of Utah, I assume is very Mormon, that Salt Lake City would be a conservative town.

[378] Well, I was, couldn't have been more wrong about that and would like to say now, I now know because of making that mistake that actually Salt Lake City is the like liberal part of Utah and it's a college town and it's the hit place and it's probably best case scenario.

[379] And if you're looking for, I don't know, a great shirt or really cool for.

[380] flats i'm not i don't know um so steve christensen gets to his office he sees a brown wrapped box shaped package in front of his office door and his name's written on top of it he picks it up and it immediately immediately explodes oh fuck here i thought it was something else and this is fucking let's do this yeah so it was a pipe bomb um Steve is killed um the department of alcohol tobacco and fire yeah it's it was a pipe bomb that was made with um concrete nails or inside and concrete nails are the nails you use to pound in they're not made of concrete you're they're the really strong industrial size nails that you pound into concrete so the person that made this pipe bomb wanted the person who picked it up to be killed wow what a bummer yeah um so the ATF uh officers arrive they begin to piece the bomb back together to figure out that it's a pipe bomb and that was activated by a mercury switch that would go off when the package was picked up and tilted one way or the other so so the minute the mercury like shifts exactly it's in a little glass circuit and if it in it is laying on one side of this little glass thing and then when you pick it up if you put it and chip it one way or the other the circuit connects and that's when the bomb explodes wow So they know from a bomb like that that the person, that the bomber dropped that box off because they would have to make sure it stays exactly the way it is.

[381] And they couldn't mail it.

[382] Yeah, you can't just give it to somebody else.

[383] Okay.

[384] So, also inside the bomb were Tandy brand batteries, which is, as many R .C. enthusiasts know.

[385] Tandy is the Radio Shack brand of batteries.

[386] Really?

[387] So they start going around to the local radio shacks trying to find out who's bought batteries there, you know, the past week or whatever.

[388] They also find out that Steve Christensen had recently worked at a financial company called CFS, which after doing huge business in the 70s and the early 80s had started losing money and was in serious trouble.

[389] So this is the part that I actually found really interesting because so the 80s, were like a time of big money.

[390] That's when everybody pretended to be rich and preppies and you know, it was a very eyes odd Coke time.

[391] Yeah.

[392] And apparently, Salt Lake City in that time was a hotbed for financial fraud.

[393] Really?

[394] Yeah.

[395] So what people would do, con men would go to Salt Lake City and they would kind of like get into the Mormon church.

[396] They would either pretend they were Mormons or they would befriend higher -ups in the Mormon church.

[397] And And then when they would do business, they would, like, say they were in securities or whatever stocks bought.

[398] They like, I got a ground floor fucking thing to get in on.

[399] Exactly.

[400] And then the elders or whoever in the church would be like, oh, this guy is trustworthy.

[401] And so then all the parishioners or Mormons, I'm not sure what you call the general word for, but all the people in that church would then trust that person and buy into whatever thing that that person was bringing to the table, whether it was.

[402] was high finance or also very popular, a pyramid scheme vitamin sales got to be very popular.

[403] What the fuck?

[404] Back then.

[405] Yeah.

[406] So it was kind of an, there was lots of AMway, low grade AMway kind of bullshit going on.

[407] Did they get the vitamins?

[408] Did they ever get the vitamins?

[409] Did they ever get the vitamins they needed?

[410] I don't know.

[411] But it was a kind of thing.

[412] They call it affinity fraud.

[413] And it happens in lots of different, different kinds of religions.

[414] This is why my money is under my bed.

[415] Right?

[416] And trust no one?

[417] Yeah.

[418] It's the same.

[419] It's the assumption that quote unquote, one of your own is going to look out for your best interest as opposed to an outsider.

[420] Oh, I don't trust anyone.

[421] Do you?

[422] No, I'm scared of all money.

[423] My fucking cousin isn't financial, whatever the fuck, and I, like, I'm scared.

[424] Sorry, Mitch.

[425] Well, because it's so, anyone can tell you anything.

[426] And if you don't know exactly what's going on, it's 100 % pure trust.

[427] Yeah, and if people are that into money, like, they're into money and they want it.

[428] Yeah, exactly.

[429] Okay.

[430] Well, so it's the same thing Bernie Madoff did to, he got $20 billion, as you well know, watching that documentary from wealthy Jewish people.

[431] A guy named Alan Stanford did it to Southern Baptists.

[432] Wow.

[433] He had a $7 billion dollar empire that fell.

[434] There was even a conman named Monroe L. Beachy, who became trusted within the Amish community, and he went to prison for orchestrating a scheme that defrauded 2 ,700 investors, many of them his friends and neighbors.

[435] What a dick.

[436] So it's just a very common practice of, like, this idea that your religion would stand for your good morals, and that, therefore, the business is a trustworthy one.

[437] It's almost worse con than just, you know, clients.

[438] Because, yeah, these people are trusting because they, because if you're in their religion, it's because you believe the same things they do.

[439] You have the same morals.

[440] They're going right on the inside.

[441] You know, they're not just standing out and like rolling the dice that maybe you'll believe them and maybe not.

[442] They're asking you.

[443] They're playing on your ultimate faith.

[444] Yeah.

[445] Which is very ugly.

[446] And in the Mormon religion, it was the kind of thing where they're, I believe a lot, I have, know lots of Mormons I've grown up I grew up with Mormons one of my good friends that I used to work with Betsy is a Mormon and you know it's it's a very moralistic they the life they live is really the whole idea of it is that you live this life based on your faith so it's like my friend just said it the other day he's like Mormons really walk the walk yeah so it's not just and I may maybe I'm only saying this because of all those like design websites that you these days and when you trace them back it's like a young Mormon family but it's like the most beautiful you know table setting yeah and the cutest design and it's like here's a great thing for your baby i've heard so many bloggers like famous bloggers or like the big ones that have beautiful websites are Mormon for some reason yeah because it's kind of like it's the whole idea of like home building yeah and like putting the best into your home right and being ambitious and always having something anyways yeah yeah i mean these are insane generalizations, obviously, we're not speaking for every single person that's in the religion.

[447] But there is just, there's something to that.

[448] There's something to that.

[449] Where there's it, there is, there seems to be an innocence that, that in the 70s and 80s, con men were like, oh, we can exploit this, this community, this sense of community that they have.

[450] Okay.

[451] Two hours after Steve Christensen's attack, there's another bombing at the home of Gary and Kathy Sheets.

[452] Gary Sheets was Steve Christensen's boss at CFS.

[453] And his wife, Kathy, was the one who picked up the package.

[454] It exploded in her hands and she was killed.

[455] Oh, my God.

[456] How have I never heard of this?

[457] I know.

[458] So now the police are thinking that these bombings are related to the failed CFS business dealings.

[459] And so it could be retaliation from an old employee or even the mafia.

[460] Oh, my God.

[461] Um, police talk to the sheets 13 year old next door neighbor who saw a tan minivan pull into the street's driveway the night before around midnight and thought it was suspicious.

[462] But all he saw was the car.

[463] He didn't see anybody, um, anybody get in or out.

[464] Um, but then they also talked to a jeweler who, who worked on the fifth floor of the judge building, one floor below Steve Christensen's office.

[465] his name is Bruce Passy.

[466] And he tells the police that the morning, the morning of the bomb.

[467] he got into the elevator with his father and there was a man standing in the elevator wearing a letterman jacket but with no letter on it and he was holding a brown like paper wrapped box that said to steve christensen on the top of it oh shit and so he uh bruce passy describes this man to the police um saying he is a white male five foot eight medium brown hair um the next day there's a third bombing um this time it's inside a car and the victim is seriously injured but he's not killed it's 30 -year -old mark Hoffman he is rushed to the hospital where he's in critical condition but he ends up being able to tell the police that he'd opened his car door and the package was sitting on the driver's seat with the action of opening the door it fell off and exploded oh good so he didn't get the full impact right but he had a fingertip blown off he had a huge wound in his knee where parts of the explosives went into his knee cat like his knee area so he was he was pretty badly injured but immediately the police are suspicious because if he had his fingers blown off that doesn't that means that the box was in his hands not on the seat and then tumbling to the ground also with the direction the guy in forensic files explains it really well but it's basically the way they know bombs explode and the directions they go.

[468] If the thing was in his knee, then he could not have been standing outside of the car.

[469] He must have been inside of the car leaning over.

[470] And so they basically reconstruct it.

[471] I want to watch that.

[472] I'm like trying to picture on my head.

[473] Basically, they, with the trajectory of the stuff that flew out of the bomb, which hit him, they realize he must have been leaning over the center console holding the box and basically inside the car.

[474] So his story why would you lie about that?

[475] Why wouldn't you just tell him exactly?

[476] I love when cops figure that out.

[477] Like this person killed themselves and it's like, no, the trajectory, like yours last week, the trajectory shows that that person couldn't have killed themselves.

[478] And that's the relatively new forensic part.

[479] That's like what forensic files is all celebrating.

[480] Because it's like you would never have known that until forensics comes in and is like, hold up.

[481] So the police search Mark Hoffman's house and they find a letterman jacket just like the one that Bruce Passy said the guy in the elevator was wearing and they also find they also see that he has a tan minivan oh shit and there's gunpowder that they find traces of around his house that match the brand used in all three bombings well there you go so Mark Hoffman maintains his innocence says he's the victim and he demands to take a lie to detector test and he does they give him a lie detector test and he passes with flying colors.

[482] Oh shit.

[483] Yeah.

[484] So the police start looking into who this guy really is.

[485] So Mark Hoffman was born in Salt Lake City on December 7th, 1954, raised in a strict Mormon household.

[486] He was a mediocre student, but later he was tested to have an IQ of 169.

[487] Wow.

[488] Which is insanely high.

[489] That's one point over mine.

[490] I feel like in stories I've read, people who who are like mad geniuses are usually in like the mid -130s to 140s.

[491] I was gonna say that.

[492] Like, I feel like very, very, very fucking smart is like 130.

[493] I think so.

[494] But like, then genius is like 160 something.

[495] And maybe.

[496] I like us trying to guess what genius IQ level are in the dumbest way.

[497] Well, I know when my brother was a kid with fucking attention issues, they tested him.

[498] And he had like one very high up there.

[499] it's like, well, he's just fucking bored.

[500] Yes.

[501] That's fine.

[502] So, yeah.

[503] And I never, I was not that smart.

[504] And I was never bored.

[505] No, I was always bored.

[506] You're like, this is fascinating.

[507] Just bored.

[508] Not smart and bored.

[509] Okay, so he collected coins as a teenager.

[510] And when he was young, that's a weird cut and paste.

[511] He collected coins as a teenager.

[512] And at some point, he forged a rare mint mark on a dime that was verified by an organization of coin collectors to be genuine.

[513] And when he was a kid, he tricked the shit out of fucking professional coin people.

[514] Exactly.

[515] He got the, he got the taste early of like, you know.

[516] It's impressive.

[517] I think so, too.

[518] This don't kill people next.

[519] I mean.

[520] So in 173, he volunteered to spend two years as an LDS missionary.

[521] When he came back from his mission, which was in England, he enrolled as a, uh, pre -med major at Utah State University.

[522] He married Doralie Old in 1979.

[523] They eventually have four children together.

[524] And she filed for divorce in 1987.

[525] So in 1980, Hoffman claims to have found a 17th century King James Bible with a document inside that he claimed to be the transcript that Joseph Smith's, who was the founder of the, Latter -day Saints Church, he had a scribe named Martin Harris and was supposed to be a transcript that Martin Harris brought to a Columbia Classics professor in 1828 that was originally copied by Joseph Smith from the Golden Plates, which he, from which he translated the Book of Mormon.

[526] So I'm going to say this probably incorrectly, but the general idea of the founding of the a church of Jesus Christ the Latter -day Saints is Joseph Smith found golden tablets that he dug up and from those tablets he wrote down the tenets of the religion and an angel appeared to him as he dug up those tablets to help him so basically he presents this document they freak out because they're like they had never it's a historical document from their church they'd never seen before and the um the church ends up buying it from hoffman for 20 ,000 dollars.

[527] Fuck.

[528] So this not only sets him financially, but it also sets his reputation as a historical documents dealer.

[529] So, um, I wonder where he said he found it.

[530] Oh, is it inside a King James Bible.

[531] So he, okay.

[532] So he was already, um, trying to become like a, uh, a historical book dealer.

[533] So one of the book, okay, that makes sense it was a really old it was a 17th century king James Bible so then it was like inside that got it got it okay um so uh basically he then starts um for the next several years selling forged quote unquote lost lDS documents to the church um the most notorious notorious of which was the salamander letter in 1984 so he basically starts forging Pieces of historical text and bringing them to the church and as a church member himself going, I found this.

[534] I found this.

[535] Now, the church is, part of it is like a little bit like, oh yeah, we need to, we need to be owning these papers.

[536] And sometimes he would donate them and sometimes they would buy them from him.

[537] But essentially, it was text that they, that was relevant to them knowing about their own religion and the founder of their own religion.

[538] so the one that is the most infamous is the salamander letter which basically said that when Joseph Smith dug up those tablets it wasn't an angel that appeared to him but a white salamander um that uh so so that was such a change of the historical record and they had never heard that before they'd never heard it before it was super freaky and it was kind of like they didn't know if they should announce it it put them in a really weird position.

[539] Yeah.

[540] Because suddenly it's, it's, it's a very non -religious sounding and almost like a magical witchy sounding version of the story of how their church is founded.

[541] Right.

[542] Um, that's what salamander is kind of like not as cool as a snake.

[543] Is it a snake?

[544] No. Uh, well, but snakes are in, in like Christian religion are evil.

[545] Right.

[546] So there's, there's just something weird about, it's an albino salamander, like, as opposed to an angel.

[547] Man, I think he could have done better.

[548] Well.

[549] A bear.

[550] They're now by no bear.

[551] A blue bear.

[552] A blue bear.

[553] Well, it turned out he was actually forging all of these documents.

[554] And he had lost his faith when he was a teenager.

[555] Like, he went on his mission basically because he felt a lot of pressure from his family because he was raised in such a strict Mormon household.

[556] But he was trying to embarrass the church.

[557] So he was writing these documents and changing these stories and basically adding in little inconsistencies and mistakes so that the church would kind of be scrambling and not knowing what their official approach should be.

[558] And he was like a master forger because he had already sold, let's see this, here's the list.

[559] He'd forged unpublished poems by Emily Dickinson.

[560] um signatures signatures of mark twain a full handwritten letter uh supposedly written by betsy ross no um he tricked the library of congress he tricked said the beast wow he sold signatures by george washington john adams john quincy adams daniel john brown andrew jackson wow nathan hale john hankox frances got key abraham lincoln john milton like wow this guy is so lucky he just finds all this shit yeah and makes a shit ton of money off of it.

[561] There was somebody named Button Gwinnett.

[562] No, there wasn't.

[563] His signature was the rarest and therefore the most valuable of any signer of the Declaration of Independence.

[564] The guy named Button signed the Declaration of Independence.

[565] Or girl.

[566] Oh, sure.

[567] No way.

[568] But little Button Gwinnett got up there.

[569] He also said, he claimed to have discovered a famous document called the Oath of the Freeman, which is believed to be, or, you know, some say the precursor to the Declaration of Independence, it's from the 1600s and it was worth over a million dollars.

[570] Oh, my God.

[571] But this, they never knew it existed until he came along.

[572] They knew it existed, but there were no copies of it in America.

[573] Okay.

[574] So he had claimed he found one, and he was trying to sell that, but the sale of that was kind of held up.

[575] because they were questioning its authenticity.

[576] Finally, something's like, you know what we should do?

[577] Well, in this, it's funny because I think in the forensic files, they start talking about how they, because it's within the church and the way he did it, he was a master manipulator, he was super smart.

[578] So he knew how to do it where they would not, they didn't question the documents because of who he was and what he had already sold.

[579] So it was like, well, if he sold something to the Library of Congress, and Sotheby's and all these places.

[580] What are we going to, we're going to question him?

[581] Yeah.

[582] This guy's an expert, and he's a Mormon.

[583] So get him all the way in on the inside.

[584] But he also would buy really expensive things.

[585] So he was always broke, even though he would make big money on selling these forgeries.

[586] He would then buy like rare books.

[587] And he was buying things so that he could then forge other things later.

[588] Right.

[589] I mean, it's very complicated.

[590] And there's a book called The Poet and the Murderer by, Simon Worrell and that is it tells the story of Mark Hoffman but specifically from the view of him pretending to have discovered poems by Emily Dickinson and the public library in Amherst Massachusetts which is where she was from collects money to buy these heretofore unpublished lost Emily Dickinson poems that were fake yeah so he's he's he's like like a he he was like one of the greatest forgers or the you know most infamous forgers um anyone had ever seen working it uh he's doing it so essentially what happened was he was trying to sell some new set of documents to the church steve christensen knew a little bit about um antiquities and old documents and so he was questioning he was like i heard this guy is being a question about the oath of the Freeman.

[591] They're not even sure, like he's under investigation.

[592] We need to look closer at these papers.

[593] Calling him out.

[594] Yeah.

[595] So what he did was, he plants a bomb at Steve Christensen's office to kill him.

[596] Then he planted the other one at Gary Sheets House to make it look like it had something to do with CFS instead of anything to do with him.

[597] Shit, that's fucking tricky.

[598] Yeah.

[599] I mean, this guy is you know, tricky.

[600] He's a trickster.

[601] He was eventually arrested in January of 1986, charged with a total of 27 counts, including murder, forgery, possession of an unregistered machine gun and fraud.

[602] Jesus Christ!

[603] Yeah, that's it.

[604] Literally, Jesus Christ.

[605] And a salamander.

[606] So he, albino salamander.

[607] You can't forget the albino part.

[608] I mean, all of their beliefs for hundreds of years are one thing.

[609] And then he gives them paper that's like, it turns out an albino salamander.

[610] had a say.

[611] They're like, you know, an angel sounds cooler, so we're just going to stick with that.

[612] They're like, we, now we need to have a really big meeting.

[613] And what if we have to start fucking praying to an albino salamander?

[614] I mean, would that ever even have been a choice?

[615] No. They say also, so he had like 600 forgeries that got sold and are in the market where they're still finding them today.

[616] Yeah, I was going to ask.

[617] Yeah.

[618] So they're apparently, and he wrote a letter from jail explaining which things that he did were forgeries, because some things, Obviously, when he started out, he kind of, there were valid ones.

[619] So, but they're saying that they're like, there's some Daniel Boone, uh, uh, signatures out there that are fake, that like, there's, there's, um, because there are, we're hardly any in the first place.

[620] But then Mark Hoffman comes along and suddenly there's four that are in the marketplace, which brings the value down.

[621] Um, and it turns out, you know, three of them aren't real.

[622] Do you think that his forgeries are now worth.

[623] money a lot of money mm to murderino types yeah or like is there a forgers museum I'd go to that I would too I mean I think overall the historical signatures are going to be worth the most of course because they're like the you know but I feel like some there's got to be like Smithsonian or some kind of thing that's just like you know it's history look at this rat bastard yeah look what happened yeah yeah um I just think it's funny that he did it so much and when you see the paper like he would bake the paper in the oven yeah i was gonna ask too like a lighter yeah exactly like an old western yeah um all that they found all this you know they found ink that he specifically mixed to match but then the when the um the guy who finally started investigating it forensically he was like the new ones all glow blue underneath a microscope because they're new.

[624] And so he was just really easily able to, once they knew, start investigating all of them and just be like, none of this is real.

[625] Sorry, this letter from Betsy Ross.

[626] That's crazy.

[627] I bet he'd be good at the lettering challenge.

[628] He might be.

[629] He's got to have good handwriting.

[630] He would add in, he'd be like, I believe that this is a real.

[631] I don't know where I was going back.

[632] Anyhow, he initially maintained.

[633] his innocence, but at a preliminary hearing, the prosecutors showed so much evidence of his forgeries and his debts and all of the evidence linking him to the bombs that instead of risking the death penalty, he pled guilty to two counts of second -degree murder, a count of theft by deception for the salamander letter, and a count of fraud for the sale of the McClellan collection, which was that last collection he was trying to sell.

[634] when Steve Christensen stepped in.

[635] He confessed all of his forgeries in open court.

[636] He was, in January, 1988, he was sentenced to five years to life in prison.

[637] He's spending life in prison.

[638] Five years.

[639] Wow.

[640] And he's still there.

[641] We can.

[642] Still there.

[643] Wow.

[644] Yep.

[645] That's Mark Hoffman, everybody.

[646] First, I thought you were going, like, towards the Ted Kaczynski route when I heard about a bomb.

[647] But that's fucking crazy.

[648] I've never heard about that.

[649] to be killed by a bomb do you ever open envelopes and you're like I don't know what this is going to be yes well that's my moth's thing I never think it's a mom though um a bomb though or a mom just a mom coming to tell me to sweep up the kitchen honey do those dishes oh what is that fear they're just sitting there you let him soak for too long yeah you can't just let things soak in cold water Karen it's true but also this was the 80s when like this was back when you could walk into an office building with plain package.

[650] I feel like, you know, as worrisome as it all sounds, we don't live in that world anymore.

[651] It's like, that was definitely a very pre -9 -11 era.

[652] Yeah, except I, yeah, yeah, but maybe not.

[653] You know what I mean?

[654] Well, I'm scared.

[655] I know, I know.

[656] You can be.

[657] Wow, that's fucked up.

[658] Good job.

[659] Thank you.

[660] Thanks and good job.

[661] I don't know.

[662] Thank you.

[663] Thank you.

[664] Um, okay.

[665] I'm glad we were talking about the 80s and you explained kind of like the money stuff because mine takes place in the 80s too and has a lot to do with class wars and all this stuff.

[666] Maybe should I not tell you the name of it?

[667] Whatever you think?

[668] Because I think you'll know immediately about it.

[669] All right.

[670] I'm going to, yeah, I'm not going to tell you.

[671] Okay.

[672] All right.

[673] So New York late 80s.

[674] It's insane.

[675] Jim Dwyer of the New York Times calls it completely schizophrenic.

[676] They've got one side where there's just insane.

[677] wealth from Wall Street, everyone's getting fucking rich and doing Coke and having eyes odds and such, like we've said.

[678] The financial industry is booming after a long period of stagnation.

[679] And it got so bad, like in the 70s and I think early 80s that the city of New York was going to file for bankruptcy.

[680] Do you remember that?

[681] I didn't know that about New York City.

[682] The city was going to file for bankruptcy.

[683] But I mean, it really was so bad in the 70s.

[684] And like, the late 70s of the Carter administration where it was just like a recession huge recession like we've talked about before gas lines you couldn't get gas on certain days I mean the whole the whole country was going through this but New York City because they had so much violence and that sort of thing I feel like it was a lot worse and in fact so during the financial crisis of the 70s a ton of neighborhoods in Brooklyn and the Bronx the homeowners and the landlords were lighting the apartment buildings on fire and burning them to the ground just to collect insurance money.

[685] So all these people had nowhere to live.

[686] And they left them like that.

[687] So there are these, you know, looks like how you see, how you saw Detroit for a little while.

[688] Just, you know, it's insane.

[689] Sorry, there's a movie.

[690] Now I can't remember what it's called.

[691] And Albert Finney is in it.

[692] And they have, it's basically like, it's basically a kind of a werewolf in New York City movie.

[693] but there's parts of it where I think it's the Bronx where it's just people, maybe like kids, whatever, playing in like their vacant launch and filled with just burned out debris.

[694] Wolfen?

[695] Wolfson.

[696] Wolfson.

[697] That's exactly right.

[698] It's kind of a cookie.

[699] It's supposed to be scary, goofy movie, but you can see all that where it's like, now New York City is pristine and amazing.

[700] And of course, like the real estate is like...

[701] Once Giuliani took over and made it fucking Disneyland.

[702] But there's also photo...

[703] Not that I think that it's better when it was dangerous, But there's photographs you can go.

[704] There's a couple great photo, what are they, slide shows of New York in the 70s and 80s.

[705] And I mean, just the subways alone are terrifying.

[706] Yeah.

[707] And, yeah, and they had kids playing on like mattresses and vacant burned out.

[708] It's just, it's crazy.

[709] And especially, I think, younger people who never saw that should go and look those photos because you'd be very surprised.

[710] Yeah.

[711] That's where all that punk rock came from.

[712] Yeah.

[713] So it was mostly in black and Latino neighborhoods that this Burning Down was doing.

[714] let's see so both unemployment rates and crime rates rates were at an all -time high and because of the bankruptcy coming up police and firefighters had been laid off municipal services were cut including sanitation and after -school programs were totally cut so these kids who had working parents had nowhere to go after school so they were you know on their own in this insane city and during this time son of sam was on the loose so people were fucking terrified of that as well um And then there was the blackout of 79, and there's a fucking great American experience called the blackout, and I fucking, everyone should watch it.

[715] It's so good, and it shows what it was like at that time.

[716] And after that, there were these crazy fires and looting, and it never really got cleaned up.

[717] So you have abandoned buildings, you have all this stuff.

[718] So then in the early 80s, Wall Street suddenly boomed, created crazy wealth for people.

[719] I mean, the wealth they had compared to what normal people had even was insane.

[720] And then the other side of the city is experiencing crazy poverty.

[721] The crack epidemic starts, crazy violence that's fed by and understaffed.

[722] A lot of times, racist and corrupt police department.

[723] That is, you know, horrible.

[724] And there's class tensions and racial unrest.

[725] In about 84, crack came to New York, and that just increased the crime.

[726] The crack wars came.

[727] So also giving really young kids access to.

[728] to a lot of money and weapons.

[729] So you just have these young kids and teenagers, you know, with, yeah, all hell rakes loose.

[730] That was like the way to get a job.

[731] Yeah.

[732] And to get out of the hood, basically, was, and for some of them, it was the only way.

[733] Yeah.

[734] I always, there's an amazing movie called Fresh.

[735] It's one of my favorite movies of all time.

[736] I've never seen it.

[737] It's really good.

[738] We'll do a double feature with this other movie.

[739] With the Andy Williams Christmas special.

[740] it's about a black kid who's trying to figure out a way to get out of the bad neighborhood and the bad situation he's in and it is so brilliantly written and brilliantly shot and it's one of my favorite movies I definitely want to watch that yeah we need a fucking we I need and I'm sure other people want it's just a lineup of movies you suggest because it's never me it's oh I think I suggest documentaries like Ken Burns and you're like here's this movie that'll change your life And I'm like, I'm never saying it.

[741] So we're going to need someone to make a list of those movies.

[742] We're going to need someone with a mustache to write that down.

[743] If only we had, oh, shit, I owe you money.

[744] I owe you a paycheck.

[745] I forgot.

[746] I didn't forget.

[747] Oh, Stephen.

[748] I'm sorry.

[749] So crack came.

[750] Hell breaks loose.

[751] All right.

[752] On a typical day in 1989, which is where the story takes place, New Yorkers reported one day, nine rapes, five murders, 255 romances, robberies and a hundred ninety five ninety four aggravated assaults shit and that's later in the 80s 89 god yeah okay so da da da da da da da da so the people who are experiencing this of course are the poor working class families um they're falling through the cracks la da brown and latino black and latino communities in mostly bedford sty in um Brooklyn Harlem brownsville east New York these neighborhoods are experiencing all of this and then you have the upper east side of fucking richest shit people all right for example and then i'll get on to the story in 1984 bernard gets he was a 37 year old queen's native white dude nerdy white dude he's on the subway and he starts getting uh accosted by four young black men they tried to mug him and he takes out a gun and shoots all four of them they all survived but he became known as a fucking subway vigilante people celebrated him right uh and he was ultimately found not guilty on all charges except for possession of an illegal firearm and sentenced to one year in prison for shooting for people yes um so all right so that's also sorry but that's also the time that they started doing guardian angels yes where they were it was almost like people didn't believe anyone was going to help them with crime uh and like the bernard getts thing was such a a racially kind of motivated situation, but also is just the, these, everybody, it's the irony of like, what you just said was the people that were in the worst neighborhoods, which were demographically minorities and people of color, we're actually getting the worst of this crime, but then it's like the white vigilante that starts shooting everybody.

[753] Right.

[754] It's not like, yeah, you don't go to these neighborhoods and every, you know, there's work, these are working class people, I mean, they're working their asses.

[755] off and they're not going to be able to move into other neighborhoods there's so much racism there's kind of this race where between white people and people of color but it's you know it's not everyone who's they're being affected more so right by this so okay so we'll get into this let's get into the central park five and the east side right oh shit dude yeah all right I'm going there you sound all right like you're not no I mean this is just one of the heaviest the thing that I remember most about this case is how go you know what go tell me no no it's just it was such a big deal and this was like when i was in high school yeah i didn't know i was maybe 10 so i didn't my mom kept that away from me so you'll have to jump in at any time yeah yeah tell me stuff yeah all right the night of wednesday april 19th 1989 around 9 p .m approximately 30 30 god i'm burping sorry 30 teenagers who lived in East Harlem, went into the northmost part of Central Park, and they proceeded to commit several attacks, assaults, and robberies.

[756] Can you imagine 30 teenagers?

[757] I don't care what fucking nationality or color they are.

[758] I would run.

[759] No, teenagers are bad.

[760] Teenagers are bad people.

[761] Teenagers are horrible.

[762] Also, two teenagers are fine.

[763] Yeah.

[764] 30 teenagers, the volume alone.

[765] Yeah.

[766] I don't care if they're women, girls, I fucking run.

[767] I think girls are worse.

[768] Yeah.

[769] here's the thing though were the do we know for a fact that they were committing those crimes or was that that was that like a fact well i can yeah i have a list of great great crimes they were actually committing okay so i don't yeah it's hard because you want to see every everyone is innocent but they you know and it was 30 so who knows how many of them were actually doing it right so they attacked several bicyclists threw rocks at a cab and attacked a man who was who they assaulted robbed and left unconscious a school teacher out for a run was severely beaten.

[770] They attacked another jogger, hitting him in the back of the head with a pipe and a stick, and they beat two men unconscious, hitting them with a metal pipe, stones, and punches and kicking them in the head.

[771] Wow.

[772] So there was a group of these 30 kids.

[773] And they were basically kind of wilding throughout the park.

[774] Well, that's the word that was created later.

[775] Okay.

[776] Yes.

[777] So a chase ensued by the police and around 10 .15, a handful of the kids are taken into custody, including Kevin Richardson and Raymond Santana, and they're both 14 years old.

[778] So these are young kids, and they're charged with, quote, mischief.

[779] So cut to 1 .30 in the morning, passerby has discovered the unconscious body of Trisha Miley in a shallow ravine in a wooded area of the park wearing only her bra.

[780] Trisha had gone for a run on her usual path in Central Park before 9 a .m., I mean, sorry, 9 p .m. That evening when her, and then when her almost lifeless body was found about four hours later, she had been knocked down, dragged or chased 300 feet, and violently assaulted.

[781] She was stabbed five times, raped, sodomized, and beaten almost to death.

[782] Her first policeman who saw her said, she was beaten as badly as anybody I've ever seen.

[783] Meanwhile, back at the police station, the kids were about to be released from custody when a police officer was told about Trisha being found.

[784] and then what followed was hours of intense interrogation using tactics to get them to wear them down as now we know that's how you get a confession whether it's legitimate or not exhaust them they get no food no drink no sleep for almost two days it takes and they're repeatedly told that they could go home once they confessed and then eventually after like two days the boys turn against each other they tell them they admit just to you know get go home.

[785] And these are 14, 15 year old children that aren't bad kids.

[786] So there's this documentary by Ken Burns and his daughter.

[787] And it's this incredible documentary that I definitely think everyone should watch called the Central Park Five.

[788] And they talk about the kids backgrounds.

[789] And they're all good kids from good homes.

[790] None of them had ever, ever been arrested or taken in before, you know, they were Little League baseball players.

[791] They were not bad children.

[792] Yeah.

[793] So they - Also, when there's a group of 30, how do they know who through what rock, who through, like, what, basically it's the slowest kids get arrested.

[794] Well, this, go ahead.

[795] The thing is later, none of the people who had been attacked that night, aside from Trisha, were able to identify any of the boys who got, who were brought in for this attack.

[796] attack.

[797] So they probably didn't have anything to do with it.

[798] Otherwise, they would have been identified.

[799] Yeah.

[800] Um, so the, they implicate each other in the assault.

[801] The boys begin to confess after two days.

[802] I already said that.

[803] So in their written statements and videotape confessions, each confessed to being an accomplice to the rape, although not participating in the rape itself.

[804] And they start telling details of what happened and how.

[805] Um, and then they implicate three other boys in the attack.

[806] And they're picked up for questions.

[807] John McRae who's 15 Yosef Salaam who's 15 and Corey Wise who's 16 and they they ultimately all confess except for Yusuf Salam along with and then along with the other two boys the five of them are arrested and charged with the attack the media fucking loses its shit which is such a big part of the story right and probably how you heard about all of this is it was huge news and the story kind of confirmed you know the white New Yorker's image of what's wrong with the city and confirms their racial racial prejudices.

[808] The boys, when they confessed, were calling it that they were wilding, which is a phrase that became huge and everyone used it.

[809] And it was kind of this reference to them all being these untamed, you know, children running amok.

[810] They formed, quote, a wolf pack, which is also was what they made up.

[811] So sorry, those were the boys' words.

[812] Yeah.

[813] Like, that's what they were telling the police.

[814] Wilding.

[815] Yes.

[816] They called it wilding, which they made up.

[817] And then the underage suspects' names were printed, despite the fact that the names of criminal suspects under the age of 16 are supposed to be withheld from the media and the public.

[818] They also print the names, photos, and addresses.

[819] No fucking way.

[820] Of the juvenile suspects before any of them had been formally arraigned or indicted.

[821] Wow.

[822] Yeah.

[823] Who did it?

[824] what was it that I just think that at that point it was so many of them but it's basically the New York Daily News or New York Post or one of those it's the it's the tabloid yeah the tabloid seeds seeds seedy none of them were arrested and they retracted their statement within weeks claiming that they had been intimidated lied to and coerced into making false confessions and the confessions themselves were videotaped after they had been interrogated and confessing and written statements, that part wasn't taped at all.

[825] So they had no way to show that they were being fed information and coerced.

[826] So they only taped the part where they said, I did it.

[827] Or someone else did it.

[828] They only taped the part after all this when they had their stories down.

[829] Okay.

[830] And they knew the details they were supposed to be talking about.

[831] Didn't tape any of the part where they make them tell the story 500 times.

[832] Right.

[833] Or, you know, you've seen these things that they say, is that what happened?

[834] That's not what happened.

[835] Right.

[836] Tell me the truth.

[837] And they kind of feed it in this really creepy.

[838] way they lead them into the the correct story right and who knows if they even do it do the cops do it on purpose do you think detectives i just don't think they even know i mean i most part it seems like for a long time it was just the way things were done until people lawyers and whoever you know rights activists came back and we're just like you can't tell them how it went and then when they repeat that back to use because they want a sip of water or they want to go home use it against them.

[839] Well, it's the whole thing, too, of like, that shouldn't be in miss. The confession videotape should not be admissible in court because there's no background.

[840] Right.

[841] It's like apropos of nothing, essentially.

[842] Yeah.

[843] Okay.

[844] So meanwhile, Trisha's injuries are so bad that she's given last rights.

[845] Like, they think she's going to die.

[846] But after being comatose for 12 days, she survives and was eventually able to talk, read, and walk.

[847] But she had no memory of the night of the assault whatsoever.

[848] So now the trial, uh, and so, so usually the homicide detective, usually they look in, okay, instead of the homicide unit getting put on the case because they thought she was going to die, Linda Fairstein of the sex, head of the sex crimes unit and her prosecutor, Elizabeth Lederer, were put on the case.

[849] And for some fucking reason, they're part of the police investigation from day one.

[850] So they're held.

[851] helping investigate this case thinking that these five kids did it and building the case around that.

[852] So they get to analyze the crime scene.

[853] They get to do all of these things that that clearly are going to lead the case for the prosecutors, you know?

[854] But they were supposed to be the defense?

[855] No, they're the prosecutors.

[856] Right.

[857] They're the sex crimes unit and their prosecutors.

[858] And they are investigating in case from the minute it happened.

[859] Okay.

[860] And that's not normal?

[861] No. Because this way they can skew the results in the direction they want, which is immediately for these five boys.

[862] Okay.

[863] So they're, you know, usually the prosecutors and the defense team and the attorneys wouldn't get the information until after the whole investigation has been completed by the detectives.

[864] Okay.

[865] Or the sex crimes unit, which is this woman who allowed her prosecutor to be in on.

[866] Oh, oh, I see.

[867] Okay.

[868] Got it.

[869] That makes sense?

[870] Yes.

[871] Okay.

[872] So the boys are brought to trial.

[873] 16 -year -old Corey Wise is being tried as an adult for some reason, because.

[874] he's 16 and the newspapers are going nuts the case of a white woman being attacked by a rowdy group of black teens stirring up the racism in the city which kind of was this underlying thing that no one was talking about but finally they had something to point at and feel like this is it was the equal opposite of the Bernie gets situation yeah it was it was basically uh yeah that's that's kind of um retribution right the idea of retribution yeah and piling it all very conveniently on these five boys.

[875] So, for example, the night of the Central Park rake, a woman in Bedford, Stai, was raped and thrown off a building, never fucking talked about in the media.

[876] And that same week that this happened, 28 rapes were reported.

[877] But those were not being reported by the media.

[878] But the black community even turned against the boys as well, some of them, because they were having their own run -ins with the black youths who had assaulted and intimidated those people in their own neighborhood and they felt that they were giving the whole community a reputation as, you know, drug dealers and felons.

[879] So even the, you know, the black community was fucking pissed about them.

[880] Oh, and good old Trump puts out a full page ad in four newspapers calling for the death penalty to be reinstated in New York.

[881] Even though the death penalty wasn't even on the table for this, he just puts...

[882] And at the time, he was a slum lord and...

[883] A very wealthy one.

[884] A very wealthy slum lord.

[885] A very wealthy businessman, yeah.

[886] Who made money off of basically being a slumlord?

[887] Yeah.

[888] Oh, and casinos.

[889] Yes.

[890] Okay, and then the City Sun newspaper and the Amsterdam News used a victim's name in their paper despite the media policy of not publicly identifying victims of sex crimes.

[891] Yeah.

[892] So they gave out her name, even though they're not supposed to.

[893] And they said it's because, well, if other people are willing to put out the boy's names, then she should have her name out.

[894] too which is like so fucked up what that doesn't no that's not a one to one nope thing at all not but it sounds like this was the wild west essentially yeah this sounds like the worst 89 man 80s just this like yeah wild west so the analysis was done on the DNA that was collected at the crime scene and it didn't match a single one of the suspects they also didn't have any hair any any evidence and the crime scene looked like it didn't looked like five people could have been attacking someone.

[895] It looked like a single person was attacking someone.

[896] There was like this small little path that was, um, walked up and taken, uh, Tricia away from the main road, but there wasn't, you know, beat up dirt or anything like that.

[897] So it was like, she was down in a ravine and there was like one track down to her body and back up.

[898] Yes.

[899] Not like five people walked down.

[900] Right.

[901] And when the boys got in there, they didn't have any mud or dirt on them.

[902] And the other thing is, if she were fighting back, which they said, the cops said that she put up a hell of a fight, they would all have scratches and crazy things on the one kid had, one of them had a scratch on his eye, but that's it.

[903] Right.

[904] So the DNA collected.

[905] And so when the DNA was collected and didn't match, the prosecutors just said that they must have been, there must have been a sixth one of them then that the DNA matches and still brought them to trial, with a case that was almost entirely based on the confession, circumstantial.

[906] So, okay, so the four boys, Kevin, Yusuf, Anton, and Raymond are convicted of rape, assault, robbery, and riot in the attacks.

[907] They were 15 years old and 14, so they got maximum sentence for juveniles, which is 5 to 10, but Corey Wise is 16 and tried when this adult, so he gets 5.

[908] to 15 in fucking Rikers, which is like a hardcore prison and going in as a rapist, especially against a white woman where there's a lot of Aryan people in the prison.

[909] Right.

[910] Is ugly.

[911] All right.

[912] Well, the summer that the attack on Trisha occurred, there's a serial rapist terrorizing the Upper East Side called the East Side Rapist.

[913] Okay.

[914] I just got a weird chill.

[915] Did you remember this?

[916] No, I've never heard of this before.

[917] Yeah.

[918] So you know that story, but you.

[919] you don't know that story very well all I know is that the mentality at the time was they caught some this was the mentality they caught some of them and they're going to jail like like good and everyone yeah everyone rejoiced everyone was was was was absolutely and I feel like in general unquestionally swallowing the story that was being fed yeah um everyone I mean they wanted it to be solved and it was a perfect backdrop and proof of what was going on and what they'd been saying was going on and what they were mad about and something to say this is why I feel this way about you know this is why my racism is justified exactly right and and to say as if this is the only these are the only people that are breaking the law yeah in New York City that this and that to me is the that's the thing I feel like all the way up to and obviously power Until very recently, but like around the OJ trial, where it's this idea of you don't just get to say who is who is innocent and who is guilty, but like you don't just get to pull people through the legal system and just be like there the problem is solved.

[920] Because if you have, if it's a setup, which many of them have been, you still have somebody that's guilty out there doing it.

[921] Totally.

[922] And who knows what color that person is.

[923] Yeah.

[924] But you've now not solved the problem, ruin.

[925] people's lives, supported racial stereotypes, not told an accurate story.

[926] So, but this is how the story ended in 2002.

[927] Okay.

[928] So the summer that the attack happened, a serial rapist named the East Side Rapist is fucking terrorizing everyone.

[929] August 5th, 1989, 17 -year -old, Matthias Reyes, is caught after raping another victim.

[930] He's the Eastside rapist.

[931] he so the woman who was raped noted to detectives that she saw fresh fresh stitches on his chin and it was right after the attack on trisha so he ultimately confessed to one murder five rapes two attempted rapes and the rape and murder the murder was lord lordus gonzalez and she was pregnant and her three children heard through the bedroom Oh, no. So, so August 5th, you've got this guy getting caught for rape and saying that he murdered people.

[932] And then on April, in April, a couple months before that, this rape of Tricia happened, this attack.

[933] Let's see.

[934] So after being in prison, he's in prison for more than a decade for the murder.

[935] In 2002, he finds God.

[936] Reyes finds God.

[937] comes forward and says that he is the attacker of Tricia.

[938] He did it.

[939] So he then goes on to detail how he followed, raped, brutally beat her with, and then details that the five, the Central Park Five never got right.

[940] They never even had similar stories of what happened.

[941] They were all different.

[942] And he just tells exactly how it really went.

[943] From where he threw the socks to where he threw the keys and why, because he was mad that she wouldn't give him her address so he could break into her house so he threw the keys and they had always wondered what the deal with the keys were, exactly what she was wearing, that she had a walkman that was stolen and they weren't sure if there was a walkman involved.

[944] All her friends said she always ran with a walkman.

[945] And he said it too.

[946] Yeah.

[947] It wasn't even at the scene.

[948] So the fact the thing he knew about it meant he was there.

[949] He definitely fucking did it.

[950] And the DNA is then tested and it's his DNA.

[951] Oh, man. Yeah.

[952] So let's see.

[953] The detective who gave him, who gave the statement, who he took the statement, said, Matias is one of the top five lunatics he's interviewed in more than 20 years investigating homicides.

[954] The five boys had already been released from prison.

[955] They're adults now.

[956] But they were struggling because they were now sex offenders on the sex offender registry.

[957] And Raymond Santana was still in jail because he had a drug charge.

[958] He took to selling drugs because he couldn't get a job with a sex offender on his as a sex offender.

[959] Yeah.

[960] But his sentencing because of that drug charge, because of his prior conviction was longer.

[961] So he was still in prison based on his prior conviction.

[962] So he's released.

[963] And then in 2002, Manhattan District Attorney, Robert Morgenthau, out the convictions in the Central Park Jogger case.

[964] The five are exonerated, and in 2014, New York City paid them $41 million as a settlement.

[965] Really?

[966] Yeah.

[967] Are you crying?

[968] Forty -one million.

[969] That's like, we fucked up so hard.

[970] Yeah.

[971] So the prosecutors, the woman who was the prosecutor, the sex offender unit head, refuses to admit that they were wrong.

[972] She's now a teacher at some big college, and they're starting a petition to get her kicked out because she uses this case as one of the highlights of her career.

[973] Oh, no. Yeah, so she can't say it's true.

[974] She says maybe there were six of them still sticks to that story.

[975] And doesn't acknowledge the hard evidence of the lunatic rapist?

[976] No. Who admitted he did it?

[977] Why would you admit you did something?

[978] And did it alone?

[979] And then actually have the hard evidence and know the details.

[980] I mean, that's very difficult to deny.

[981] Right.

[982] And then, so the police detectives, a lot of them won't admit that they were wrong.

[983] And, of course, Trump refuses to admit.

[984] He says, look at the confession.

[985] So he's still stuck on this confession, which as we know now, so many confessions are coerced easily.

[986] Right.

[987] especially out of children totally um as for the victim so uh trisha had five months of rehabilitation she returned and then she returned to running in central park in 95 she ran the new york city marathon and in 2003 so she had been anonymous up until then and in 2003 she comes out and with a published, it publishes a memoir called, I am the Central Park Jogger.

[988] I remember that.

[989] Yeah.

[990] I don't know, I want to know what she thinks about all of the, you know, thinking that these five boys were the, her attackers for so long and then having to switch your brain completely.

[991] It's just so scary.

[992] And I feel, I feel so much for her just based on that.

[993] And now she, then she began a career as an inspirational speaker.

[994] She works with victims of sexual assault and brain injury in the Mount Sinai sexual assault and violence intervention group.

[995] So that's the Central Park Five and the East Side Rapist.

[996] Wow.

[997] Huge.

[998] I know.

[999] That's such a huge story.

[1000] Did I tackle that okay?

[1001] Did I give it justice?

[1002] Yeah.

[1003] Okay.

[1004] Yeah.

[1005] Okay.

[1006] I mean, this is, I feel like, especially in this day and age, it's so difficult to talk.

[1007] The first thing I thought of while we were talking about this is, I remember one time, a long time ago, we were talking about.

[1008] about something.

[1009] And the way we intimated it, it made it sound like what we were saying is all people of color live in the ghetto.

[1010] Right.

[1011] And we got a lot of people who wanted to talk to us about that where that is in no way what me meant, but it was like the wording of how it sounded.

[1012] And so I would just point that out that, you know, like this isn't the assumption that because you are of color, you live in the worst part of the Bronx.

[1013] Yeah.

[1014] And it doesn't mean that because you're of color, you go wilding.

[1015] Like none of what we're talking about is to say every single person was living only this one way in New York in that time.

[1016] I'm sure there was tons of, you know, upwardly mobile black people and people, Hispanic people and people of color that lived on the Upper West Side.

[1017] Yeah.

[1018] So it's not it's not that.

[1019] But I think that the lines were absolutely drawn because back then the white, like it was basically white men ran most media and white men were the cops usually for the majority, I would say.

[1020] And so that was the story that we were always given.

[1021] And that was the story people were reacting to.

[1022] And that's what we're talking about.

[1023] Well, it's just so hard because with this podcast, like, you know, I don't want to do a thing that so many people talk about is that like blonde white women.

[1024] That's all the stories we cover, which I don't think we do.

[1025] But, you know, I want to give, I want to tell them the stories because I want to want to represent as many people as we can and as many victims as we can, which I totally think these boys are victims in this story.

[1026] But, you know, it's hard as a white woman.

[1027] I try to empathize, but I'll never, I know I'll never understand completely what's going on.

[1028] So, you know, like the Maitrice Richardson case, I just really wanted to, yeah, I just want to make sure that we're covering them, but I know it's never going to be perfect.

[1029] Definitely.

[1030] So it's a bit of a risk to even talk about them because everything is very loaded these days and I think people it makes people feel better if you make if you misspeak about something it makes people feel better to tell you how wrong you are it makes it makes it feel like that's that's making a difference which it definitely is yeah I mean in in some ways but but I guess our hesitation is when you put stuff like that out there it's easy to say something incorrectly or sound insensitive or make it sound like you're making a generalization.

[1031] Right.

[1032] I don't want to do that.

[1033] I tried very hard not to.

[1034] But please email us.

[1035] We're always open to, you know, hear your story or have your corrections.

[1036] They know that.

[1037] I know.

[1038] I mean, Jesus, that's the one thing we do get, I think.

[1039] But I think what's better than not covering it because it's too loaded is just not talking about it at all.

[1040] And so I think that's important as well.

[1041] to talk about it yes yes especially for people who have a podcast you know who are talking specifically about murder and podcasts in a podcast it's like we can't just cover the easy ones well and also the ones that have been covered because that you're exactly right that's the thing of it's the blonde cheerleader when the blonde cheerleader goes missing everybody freaks out because the society that's built up around us is basically said well that's what makes the money that's what sells the newspapers there's a lot lot of like very convenient rationale that uh goes into why we talk about some murders and crimes and why we don't talk about others yeah i think that example of like a woman who was raped and then thrown off a building yeah on the very same night and no one has heard of that story that's i think that's very kind of symbolic and i think it's that thing of like it's just good it's good to start trying to open your eyes i think it's a hard thing for some people to do it there's some people that'll never be able to do it.

[1042] But if you can try, I think it's important.

[1043] I think it is going to help.

[1044] Our society needs this kind of help very badly.

[1045] Definitely.

[1046] To come together and to be like, I get it.

[1047] Nobody's, you know, horror is worse than another person's horror.

[1048] And then for you and I to kind of open the conversation up because we're two white women and that it's not.

[1049] you know, that we're trying to understand what's going on in other people's worlds.

[1050] And, no, take that out.

[1051] That sucked.

[1052] No, I had it, and then it was gone.

[1053] Okay.

[1054] All right.

[1055] So something positive.

[1056] Yes.

[1057] That's how we end this.

[1058] So everyone doesn't get bummed.

[1059] Do you want to go first?

[1060] No, you go first.

[1061] Okay.

[1062] The good thing that happened to me, you know, I said I went last week to a new psychiatrist.

[1063] The fucking change in medication.

[1064] is already working.

[1065] Oh, really?

[1066] I am.

[1067] It just makes me so hopeful when I wake up in the morning I'm not exhausted all day, you know, and I'm sleeping at night without any pills.

[1068] It's just like, makes me really hopeful.

[1069] Oh, good.

[1070] I'm really, you know, I had two days of not exhaustion and I was just so happy about it.

[1071] That's great.

[1072] Yeah.

[1073] What's yours?

[1074] My friend, I have a friend, my friend, Kevin Farzad has a band called Sure Sure.

[1075] And they, have new music coming out.

[1076] They're truly one of my favorite bands.

[1077] It's like the kind of music you can put on like I just feel so stressed out lately and I think a lot of people have been.

[1078] It's the kind of music that's like super catchy and great but it's not like invasive.

[1079] I can't explain it.

[1080] It's just very good.

[1081] I totally recommend it.

[1082] I think they're coming out with a new album soon but I will be retweeting their music.

[1083] I'm just a big believer in Sure Sure, the band.

[1084] I love it.

[1085] So I think everyone should listen to them.

[1086] That's a good one.

[1087] Music is such an important part of, you know.

[1088] The human existence.

[1089] The human experience and life and happiness.

[1090] Well, thank you guys for listening.

[1091] Where is Elvis?

[1092] Thank you guys for listening.

[1093] We've done it again.

[1094] Oh, oh, I forgot to mention.

[1095] Also, we have new merch.

[1096] I totally forgot about that.

[1097] We have a, here's a thing, fuck everyone's shirt.

[1098] And it's got an adorable little drawing of.

[1099] Terry Joe.

[1100] Dupiro, I believe is how her last name is pronounced.

[1101] She's the 12 -year -old girl that got stuck on a raft after the captain of her family's boat murdered her whole family and the boat sank.

[1102] It's in like episode 18 or 28, I think.

[1103] And our friend Kat Solon, on her own accord, just drew based on the photo of her in this little raft before she got saved.

[1104] And we were like, after that episode, we were like, everything's the worst and everything sucks.

[1105] So we were like, here's the thing, fuck everyone, but she's totally a survivor.

[1106] And so, right?

[1107] So go buy those shirts.

[1108] Yep.

[1109] Those are on my favorite murder shirts .com.

[1110] Yeah.

[1111] And there's like mugs and hats and things.

[1112] And yeah, it's good stuff.

[1113] All right.

[1114] Stay sexy.

[1115] And don't get murdered.

[1116] Bye.

[1117] Elvis.

[1118] Elvis.

[1119] Elvis.

[1120] Go to be what cookie.

[1121] Elvis, want a cookie?

[1122] Come here.

[1123] He's coming.

[1124] Elvis, want cookie?

[1125] Come here.

[1126] There he goes.

[1127] I'm actually video about it.

[1128] Want a cookie?