Richard Hammond: The heartbreaking conversation that I am STILL avoiding!

[0] He was answering a question that I'd always wondered.

[1] When am I going to die?

[2] It was like, oh, it's now.

[3] Would you please welcome?

[4] Richard Hammer!

[5] People see Top Gear presenter, Grand Tour presenter.

[6] One of the biggest TV shows in history.

[7] It's fair to say that he has the best job in the world.

[8] Be funny, quicker, anger.

[9] Every compensatory measure that anybody who's diminutive in height has ever made, I've done.

[10] It's one of the reasons I'm a broadcaster now, for sure.

[11] There's a cost of that, though?

[12] Yeah.

[13] What's the cost?

[14] Was there a moment in the journey of Top Gear where you thought yourself, this is big?

[15] We went out in front of 60 ,000 people.

[16] And just before we went out, I said, Lad, have three guys with less talent ever gone out in front of more people?

[17] Is there any guilt associated with your success?

[18] Yeah, there is.

[19] I want to prove I'm not a lucky idiot.

[20] So I took some risky decisions.

[21] Have you ever pondered that you might...

[22] Might have overdone it.

[23] Richard Hammond.

[24] has been seriously injured in a car crash.

[25] They had called Mindy in.

[26] They said, I think we're losing him.

[27] I had very bad post -traumatic amnesia of like a one -minute memory.

[28] Wow.

[29] I have to consciously write memories down and work hard to recall them.

[30] Do you worry about that?

[31] I do.

[32] The damage was done.

[33] Should probably have a look.

[34] Are you scared to find out?

[35] Yeah.

[36] Can we start by you giving me your context, your earliest context?

[37] Where?

[38] Yep, little fella, born in Birmingham.

[39] Mum and Dad, I'm the eldest of three brothers.

[40] Quite a close -knit family.

[41] My mum's dad worked in the car industry.

[42] He was a coach builder.

[43] So he was trained as a cabinet maker, working with wood.

[44] Then he went into coach building, which is in the old days when cars had a steel chassis and then they'd have an ash, usually wooden frame over the top.

[45] So that's where he started because his cabinet -making skills are relevant.

[46] But then he stayed within the car industry and finished up working.

[47] at Jensen so cars were always they were always in my imagination they weren't like littering the drive because you know we had modest means so we had a purple marina coupe it was our best car but I loved them and that grew into an obsession yeah so schooled there until 15 and then we moved north as a family and I went to a Rippon Grammar School up in the north and from there started work in radio in 1988.

[48] That's a long time ago, isn't it?

[49] I wasn't alive back then.

[50] Yes, thank you so much.

[51] We've already just as I was coming in, we mentioned that, the fact that I talk regularly to like full -grown adults, like important people, you do lots of important stuff.

[52] And they're saying, oh yeah, I love your show.

[53] I used to watch it when I was a little kid.

[54] Oh, yeah, I've done it that long.

[55] You've led a life that is a real anomaly in many respects.

[56] You know, you've done some unbelievable things that people would just dream of doing.

[57] When I think back in my own life, I try and pinpoint the moments of influence, whether it was a TV show I watched or something that happened, for better or for worse, like you said with your dad and his love for cars, that made me end up living a life that was a little bit different.

[58] When you think about those things and why you became an anomaly, What are those anomalous influences?

[59] See, my favourite game is to look back and pretend they were all parts of some great plan and thread them all together, but you can only do that in retrospect.

[60] For me, I guess, I always liked expression.

[61] I wanted to be a painter or I wanted to draw really well.

[62] I loved art at school.

[63] I loved English.

[64] I loved writing.

[65] But I loved photography when I was about 10.

[66] Improvised a little dark room under the stairs and print my own black and white photographs.

[67] So I loved all of that.

[68] but I was very much things like that were for other people I think it was a Birmingham thing Brummies I've always had to but Brummies don't go wow your average Brumian will never go wow they'll go that's no I'm in my dedics could one like that only bigger it's just something we do we don't we don't profess to we don't do that and you kind of need to be able to do that to then think that's what I might pursue so a key moment am I making this up as being a key moment?

[69] I don't know.

[70] It feels like it.

[71] When I was eight, something like that, nine.

[72] My dad's parents lived in Western Supermare.

[73] So we'd go on holiday there, which meant an endless drive from Birmingham.

[74] Yes, before the motorway went all the way.

[75] I wasn't alive, then.

[76] Yeah, yeah, that's going to be a theme.

[77] We went all the way down to Western Supermare to see them.

[78] And we were walking along the front there.

[79] There's a low sea wall on the beach down here on my right.

[80] And I saw there was a bit of a fuffle going on, and a little later on me looked over the wall.

[81] Well, a lot of people gathered around and some people holding things and in the middle.

[82] And it was Derek Griffiths, presenter, who was doing a piece to camera.

[83] And there was a camera there.

[84] And I remember thinking, that's amazing.

[85] He's been so animated and talking to that thing.

[86] There's nobody there.

[87] but he's talking to it, he's engaging with it, and sort of almost pulling a response out of it.

[88] And I think that was, I didn't leave that experience going, that's it, I'm going to be a television presenter, because that was for other people, just as being a photographer was for other people or an artist.

[89] But it was there in my heart.

[90] That's when I thought, I bet that feels amazing.

[91] What was for you?

[92] If that was for other people, what did you think was for you?

[93] I don't know.

[94] I guess it, I would never have imagined, anything that I've done happening to me, none of it.

[95] For me was just, see, I'm that bit older than you.

[96] And possibly there's a generation that were raised by people who were glad to have got through the war.

[97] And for whom what they really wanted was just a quiet life with nobody trying to kill them or their parents or their loved ones.

[98] So I wonder if there's echoes of that And I think that was maybe still echoing around Birmingham That what you really wanted was just to make sure everything's okay Just to look at everything everybody's all right We can have family life and we can just progress Without making a fuss Sticking your head over the parapet Because that brings risk So avoid that, don't So I never would have dreamed I'm not saying I was directionless Had I asked you at 18 or 16 what are you going to be when you grew up?

[99] What would you have replied, do you think?

[100] 16, I'd have replied, I just want to ride me a moped.

[101] I'd have wanted to be an artist, a great painter, but had taken no meaningful steps towards it at all.

[102] Because, again, lacked confidence.

[103] Yeah, I was sort of, that would only have happened if a miracle had occurred.

[104] Do you know what I mean?

[105] If you have an option that you're not actually pursuing actively, because you think that's not for me, but I'll keep it in there.

[106] Admittedly what I'm saying, and it's like I was hoping to win the lottery, but I wasn't doing the lottery.

[107] But it feels like that.

[108] But by 18, I'd have said I want to be in radio and ultimately TV.

[109] And that's what ends up happening, right?

[110] You go and study.

[111] Yeah, well, I'd sat my O levels under a different examination board and a different syllabus from that under which I'd studied.

[112] And then I went into sixth form, but it reached a point eventually when, The teaching staff thought it might be better if I went somewhere else.

[113] Literally anywhere else, just not there.

[114] Just don't be.

[115] They chucked me out.

[116] But not for anything heroic.

[117] I wasn't one of those, yes, I set fire to the janitor's car or something.

[118] I just was annoying.

[119] I was an irritant.

[120] And I wasn't focusing, so they slung me out.

[121] What do you mean, when you say annoying, you mean just whining the teachers up or something?

[122] Yeah.

[123] Trying to be funny.

[124] every compensatory measure that anybody who's diminutive in height has ever made, I've done.

[125] I only discovered recently that one of my dearest friends Zog Ziegler, whom I've known for 30 -odd years, he's 20 years older than me, in emails referring to me to other people, he copied me into one by accident about 10 years ago.

[126] He always calls me little Napoleon.

[127] I didn't know he'd been doing that.

[128] He looked a bit, shamefaced, but he still does.

[129] Yeah, I exhibited all of those traits.

[130] I was just irritating, honestly, really annoyed.

[131] Do you know why?

[132] Because I was conscious of being, you know, swore than everybody else, and I wanted to be a bigger noise in the room.

[133] I wanted to sort of disrupt and do stuff, but I didn't want to be naughty.

[134] I still hate being in trouble.

[135] I hate being in trouble.

[136] It bothers me. And it did then.

[137] But I was just, honestly, I was.

[138] wouldn't have put out with me you know there's like a stereotype that that if you're smaller in stature that you're you're really insecure that it becomes almost like a shame or an insecurity as a young man and then you kind of you act against that by exhibiting certain behaviours was that true for you was there ever like a shame of being smaller it was yeah I guess you don't really it's not something you crave although I've spoken to lots of tall people who often wish and had a similarly difficult time as a child because you're always sticking out the crowd and you don't always want to and you can't make yourself small.

[139] It genuinely doesn't trouble me now.

[140] I mean, the truth of the matter is, often when I meet people for the first time and if they've seen me on the telly, there's a moment and they're disappointed because they're expected to meet something that you'd hang on a Christmas tree or put on the mantel piece, but I'm actually, what, 5 '7 -ish?

[141] So I'm fairly average, really, It's just that I've consistently worked with much taller people.

[142] But it, yeah, it did drive me on as a kid.

[143] And I do, it's bullying.

[144] I've never bleated about it, but it is.

[145] And it influenced me greatly, yeah.

[146] Yeah, it, I overcompensated.

[147] I felt I had to.

[148] It's almost like you take that as a kid, I mean.

[149] You take that into the room with you.

[150] Anything that makes you different, whatever that is, you take that in the room with you, and it's kind of you have to deal with it, and you have to deal with it, you have to compensate for it, be funnier, or be quicker, or be angrier, or noisier, or naughty.

[151] You have to somehow compensate with this thing, which is to do with, I guess, if you could bring that thing with you into a room and it was simply absorbed, and it didn't matter, then you could be the person behind all of that.

[152] So, yeah, I think it did influence.

[153] It's one of the reasons I'm a broadcaster now, for sure.

[154] Really?

[155] Yeah, bound to be.

[156] Must be.

[157] Must be.

[158] I've often thought, really, if you're lucky enough, it depends.

[159] People seldom have careers now as broadcasters as I think of it, because their personalities and that's a different game.

[160] But I come from an era when it was a craft.

[161] I spent a long time learning about how to address an audience.

[162] through radio.

[163] You never pluralize the audience.

[164] You talk to people one -on -one.

[165] All sorts of things.

[166] And those craft skills have gone, and they've gone from TV.

[167] Is that a bad or a good thing?

[168] I don't know if actually we're getting to see people genuinely as they are if we're celebrating interesting personalities, rather than somebody who simply learned to craft, maybe that's better.

[169] But I was pushed to do it, I think, in part by that.

[170] And I've often said that the worst people to pursue it as in the worst people to deal with the trappings of success in the media are by definition the same ones who are the only ones driven enough to achieve it because they're compensating so that's why it can be damaging because only the man or woman who was so desperate for it will have hung on and endured sacrificing friends and time and spare time and sometimes dignity and whatever else in order to get there and they're therefore the least able to deal with it when whatever it was that they craved is given them but they'd be better off solving the craving removing the craving than feeding it that's my theory i said this to my girlfriend yesterday did you bed at one a m yeah you said the point about how people that strive to have the admiration let's call it or the success, whatever, the sort of external validation is maybe a broader way to kind of describe that are also the ones that once they get it will struggle the most to deal with it whether it's because of the scrutiny that comes with it or the power that comes with it or whatever that comes with it and so that's my exact point that's exactly it, yeah, then we agree.

[171] I think it's, and it's not, it's fairly obvious when you see it that way.

[172] I'm not against all of that.

[173] I'm not against, you know, we live in that world.

[174] where people can project their personalities across all across the world um that doesn't trouble me overly the only thing does trouble me is occasionally i'll meet a young person a kid and they'll say oh yeah it's great i'd love what you do i'd love to be famous and i'll always stop at that i always really why because you know it's it's a it's a byproduct of a fascinating and potentially a rewarding job and it can be important.

[175] It can be powerful even.

[176] But the fame itself is just, it just means it's embarrassing standing on a train on your own because everybody's staring at you.

[177] That's all it means.

[178] I guess if you live in London and go out a lot, it might mean you can get a restaurant table.

[179] But you can only get that if you're going to go, hi, I'm kind of a big deal on the television.

[180] Can I have a tell?

[181] Okay, and then you feel even worse when you can't.

[182] Were you aware that you were being driven by that's some kind of like insecurity throughout that period?

[183] Or was it really in hindsight that you look back and go, ah?

[184] Was I aware?

[185] Yeah, I think I was.

[186] Yeah.

[187] I mean, I learned to fight early on.

[188] I learned to punch above my way, to make a noise, to be braver.

[189] If there's some idiot on his bicycle trying to jump over some action man toys on a ramp, it would be me. Yeah, I knew.

[190] I knew.

[191] I was a small kid just screaming, notice me, notice me, notice me, notice me. I think.

[192] I think.

[193] And the problem there, of course.

[194] A lot of us, don't we?

[195] We'll have traits that aren't always the best, but that are rooted in justifiable cause.

[196] But if your job then rewards it, if you are needily showing off, my mum, you stop showing off.

[197] Sorry, that was my childhood.

[198] But if you're then rewarded for it, wait a minute, your brain is sort of remapped a little bit to go, oh, so that isn't a bad thing.

[199] I should pursue that because I literally am rewarded financially and people seem to like me. So I'll continue doing it.

[200] It's why my midlife crisis has lasted 20 years and it's still going on.

[201] Quite enjoying it.

[202] I am, you know, maybe 10, 20 episodes ago on this podcast, I started because I'd heard similar themes in my guests that they were being they were all misdescribing themselves as being dragged by an insecurity and I was I started to make this kind of distinction between being driven which is maybe for intrinsic reasons or whatever and then being dragged where there's some kind of void you're trying to fill or insecurity you're trying to to mend or some validation you're seeking and you know you're either in the front of the car driving down the middle way or you're kind of on the end of it being dragged by this pursuit of like validation and how at some point in our lives we probably need to like take hold of the steering wheel and be conscious about the direction we're traveling in and not being dragged by the insecurity or the desire to be liked whatever it might be was there a point in your life where you're you're the thing driving you moved from being that that you know insecurity or that that pursuit to show off and the validation it creates to being a little bit more conscious because I sometimes worry in myself but also in the conversations I have that If we don't at some point realize what's driving us, it might drive us to the wrong place.

[203] It might drag us to the wrong place, shall I say.

[204] Initially, I don't know I spent that much time thinking about it like that because, heck, it was work.

[205] If you're a freelancer in radio in 1988, 89, you go where the job is and you live in whatever beds you've got to live in to do it.

[206] Because I love the job, and let's not, I didn't, it wasn't at one long introspective naval gazing party.

[207] It was, this is really cool.

[208] I really enjoy it.

[209] and in those days I'd arrive at a new radio station and if I was lucky be given the radio station car which was often quite a new car which was and dispatched in that with a ure tape recorder which is a real to real quarter inch tape tape recorder that to you is a steam train is that like an iPod no it's about 20 years before the iPod it is honestly it belongs in the museum but that's what we used so I'd be dispatched with that to go and do an interview with no mobile phone to hook up.

[210] But when I got there, I loved it.

[211] I still love harvesting people's thoughts and ideas and sharing them via any medium.

[212] I mean, look at what we live in now, look at what you're doing, what we can do, what I do, Drive Tribe that I now run.

[213] That is about doing exactly that.

[214] And it's almost your generation, I guess, and the agencies that you run and the work that you do, you're that bit further than I am from because I'm still closer to still being amazed I used to have a fantasy when I was working radio to go and do interviews again with no mobile phone so you had to pick up a phone with a curly wire and make the appointment and you had to be on time because you couldn't just turn up and then oh I'll call you when I get there there were no mobile phones it didn't exist and there was no internet to research where you're going So you took a paper map, navigated your way there, and you did your interview.

[215] You could link up live with the radio station, but through like a radio mask that you had to put up.

[216] And then you'd go back.

[217] And I used to fantasize about, imagine if I could just go anywhere and do live broadcasting.

[218] It's just, and the other day we were having a meeting with the guys that worked with me on Drive Tribe.

[219] And we were talking about, I'm not going to tell you, because you're going to do it.

[220] and you'll take it from it.

[221] But we've got a cracking idea for a little show we want to do on platform.

[222] And it involves, first of all, Lucy, one of the people in the team, she's going to go off and do this thing.

[223] And we can do it.

[224] We can link live.

[225] You think, well, what?

[226] Maybe those of my generation should keep hold of that amazement and just keep it going because it will be.

[227] I mean, to you, that's, of course you can.

[228] I'm still a bit amazed by that.

[229] Is that a good thing?

[230] Is it useful?

[231] I'm going to say yeah, but I'm only saying yeah, for romantic reasons because actually it makes no difference at all.

[232] The fact is you can practically, you can do what you can do.

[233] So do it to good effect.

[234] Sitting there hopping up and down and going, oh, it's amazing that we can do it.

[235] Probably doesn't help.

[236] Hmm.

[237] What do you think?

[238] Better to be...

[239] Gratitude, right?

[240] There's a level of gratitude in there, which is a healthy feeling.

[241] Yes, there is.

[242] I'm grateful that we are able to...

[243] do that.

[244] I'm grateful that we live in a time when we can come up with an idea sitting in my barn having a meeting and then just do it.

[245] That's amazing.

[246] And a younger generation or a generation that haven't been exposed to the change might not, they just have an expectation that it happens, so there's less gratitude involved in the fact that it is happening.

[247] Yeah, it was made them all grow up like I did, exactly, with no mobile phones and just a hoop and a stick to play with.

[248] Do you, I do sometimes ponder if that world, without the internet.

[249] My analogue world.

[250] Well, it would be a much more enjoyable world for the human being to live in.

[251] And it kind of links somewhat back to what we were talking about earlier, where if you think about the essence of what it is to be human, I don't think we're supposed to be exposed to this much information and this much sort of global connection in terms of like the bombardment of notifications and this constant stimulus which leaves you in that fight or flight state.

[252] Yeah, but the drive to do that is quintessentially human and it's one of the reasons we proliferated the way we have.

[253] that spreading of gossip and sharing of information and sharing of mutually agreed standards, be that industry showbys gossip or religion or anything else.

[254] But sharing those is what's enabled us to work together in huge numbers.

[255] Otherwise, we would be in little individual groups still under gathering.

[256] So it's been key.

[257] We have to have it.

[258] It was inevitable.

[259] I think it's run away a bit.

[260] I think the critical nature of gossip and sharing all of that, because we've developed this way of doing it but maybe it'll decrease in import maybe we'll need bigger spikes in it to actually grab our attention but I don't I don't think we can't condemn it because we've pursued it what's come out of us we have all the options so we need to look at what it will do for us I think it'll water down it'll dilute I wonder if the brain has evolved at the same pace as it well the brain I mean it can it is a limit limitlessly flexible sort of bucket of soup in electricity, isn't it, really?

[261] I mean, I dented mine crashing into the ground at 320 miles in a stupid boy.

[262] That was typical of me. I only did that because I'm a short bloke.

[263] That is short bloke all over.

[264] Anybody don't want to drive this rocket -powered dragster?

[265] Me, me, me, will everybody be looking?

[266] Yeah, I'll do it.

[267] Then it crashed.

[268] But I did damage mine.

[269] And there were all sorts of anomalies within it, ways in which it didn't work as it should, emotional responses are all over the place.

[270] No big motor control issues, but some.

[271] But it rewired, it fixes.

[272] And there's loads of instances of it doing that.

[273] So if the brain can recover and literally physically reshape and function post -physical trauma, then it can also, we could evolve, we could be evolving now.

[274] Will it be genetically encoded and passed down?

[275] So will a new generation following on from you evolve, will they carry pre -coded?

[276] that information to deal with our digital world.

[277] Well, physiological changes, no. But then as human beings, because we have to have the capacity, you might be born a Wall Street, billionaire, a fisherman in an Amazonian village.

[278] The same essential ingredients have to do that.

[279] We have to have that limitless flexibility.

[280] So maybe that's why our brain will, maybe it'll always retain that flexibility, which means by definition it can't evolve, distinctive route because that's narrowing options we're still born with this incredible capacity to be and do anything within a very broad range of things and we need to hang on to that I mean a baby giraffe has to do is endure a six -foot drop when it's born and be able to run a few minutes later and you're away that's it we have to do a lot of other stuff I wonder a part of the reason I ask this question is because I'm trying to think about a lot of the things we're seeing with mental health and how it appears that situational and environmental factors are causing, of the modern world, are causing the brain to struggle in many ways at a fundamental level.

[281] Whether it's loneliness, that's driving the brain to feel a sense of purposelessness or something, or whether it's the overstimulation, which is causing anxiety, and the brain is struggling to cope with that.

[282] That's kind of why I was asking the question as to whether the brain is keeping up with the nature of the modern world, because there seems to be a lot of symptoms that it isn't.

[283] But there's only so many stimuli that can be received and registered via our various senses and organs into that lump in there.

[284] There's only so many things that could...

[285] I think you might attribute magical qualities to an analogue existence.

[286] And you can see why we would, because an analogue existence has a degree of definition that couldn't be achieved digitally because you're always limited whereas it's a bit like trying to explain science and the world using science trying to explain the universe using science it's only the languification of it it's not it isn't absolute these aren't the facts they're a version of facts that we can share between us and sharing and communicating is what we do it's what defines us so that's all it is It's the languification of that that is.

[287] But it doesn't have the definition.

[288] It can't go down to a fine enough...

[289] It's still like trying to paint the Mona Lisa using Lego bricks.

[290] It's not quite fine enough.

[291] But I think a digital world is even less fine because it's zero as and once.

[292] It's absolutely.

[293] And yes, in what we do, it's great.

[294] It returns empirical data on whether or not something is being approved of if you're making a marketing film, as opposed to sticking your finger in the air and seeing which way the wind's blowing.

[295] and are people looking at that poster outside the bus station?

[296] Yes, but the poster outside the bus station in that analogue world has a far, finer level of detail, then I think you could do digitally.

[297] But are you attributable, are you saying that it's intrinsically bad that we're drifting towards a digital world and away from the analogue because the analogue contains something that...

[298] Because stimuli is stimuli.

[299] Are you...

[300] Yeah.

[301] You can stimulate, you can replicate...

[302] We could honeycomb the entire world.

[303] And you could be put into a pod, into which you could be given sufficient physical mental stimuli, which isn't any chemicals, to maintain what is measurably a healthy human being.

[304] Would you be?

[305] I don't know.

[306] I guess I'm asserting that, like, humans clearly have some fundamental needs, you know, shelter, connection, I was going to say psychological safety.

[307] I'm not sure that's necessarily a human need, but it's important.

[308] and some of those things seem to be being stripped away by the nature of the world we live in today where, you know, in America, when asked how many people have you got to turn to in a time of crisis, the answer used to be three.

[309] I think it's the modal answer or the medium answer is now zero.

[310] Theresa Mayer pointed the first loneliness are they think loneliness is significantly worse than smoking 20 cigarettes a day, reduces your life expectancy by 10 years.

[311] And I wonder whether that's almost like a human response to something that's been stripped away from the way we live our lives over the last, whatever.

[312] You know, like living in four white walls alone as a single bachelor, ordering my food using a glass screen, ordering, like, dating using a piece of glass, stimulating myself, potentially, sexually using a piece of glass screen in my hand.

[313] And then the processed food that I'm eating, I'm just wondering, and then look, you know, the constant stimulation of this dopamine hit from this glass screen as well in my hand.

[314] That's keeping me awake up at night, hurting my sleep, and then keeping me in fight or flight because I'm nervous about something on this glass screen, you know.

[315] But if that's the answer, what is the answer to that?

[316] Because we made it, collectively as a species, we have gone that route.

[317] I mean, I'm not sort of absolutely, I'm not saying, we've gone that way.

[318] Well, yeah, I'm not saying we've gone that way.

[319] We must continue doing that.

[320] It might well be that disruptors need to put the hand up and say, are we sure?

[321] Yeah.

[322] I mean, it's like I wanted to talk about the car, because I believe the car is sort of an expression of some of that.

[323] Because in that analog world, which, all right, I'm from.

[324] You've got those needs, so you need shelter, I suppose, warmth, food, stimulation, supplies, mate.

[325] Once you've got beyond cave, a car comes to represent all of it.

[326] That's why it's important.

[327] That's why it very quickly became a symbol, because you've got shelter, but what are you going to do, starve to death and die of loneliness and boredom at the back of your cave?

[328] No, you need to leave it and get that that you need.

[329] And something that can get you there first, to the kill, to the mate.

[330] to the resources is powerful.

[331] That's what the car became.

[332] You're very passionate about the role of the car in society, aren't you?

[333] Yes, I am, because of what it represents, which is everything other than shelter.

[334] Yeah, and here's me getting all poetic and romantic and dewy -eyed about the analogue world because I think something that moves you physically, corporally, from one place to another, that's powerful, because I'm going there, I'm taking my person, my son.

[335] And the universe only exists for each of us in here.

[336] So I'm taking, therefore, the universe with me to wherever it is.

[337] I'm going to do whatever it is I'm going to do.

[338] And that makes it impossibly exciting.

[339] And for that reason, I think it'll never go away.

[340] Top Gear.

[341] That really was a big.

[342] Yeah.

[343] You caught on, didn't you?

[344] Yeah, it was remarkable.

[345] When I'd done car shows, I'd done radio for years, moved to the South to get a job at Renault in the press office so I could get to know the editors of the car shows which I duly did one of whom Pete Baker saves me and gave me a job on Granada Men of Motors making little car shows and then eventually after years and years and years of doing that I audition for the new top gear and got the job when you got that job did you what were your expectations of the role of that show initially I cried and opened a bottle of champagne and I was just it was just it but I'd spend my whole life trying to do that So it had worked.

[346] Yeah, yeah, it was a huge moment.

[347] But we just thought we'll make a car show.

[348] I remember the conversation in White City, BBC HQ.

[349] With most of us, before James joined, but the rest of us were all in place.

[350] And weirdly, some of the people we still work with now.

[351] We were all in that room.

[352] And we all said, right, these are the grand rules of top gear.

[353] It's about the real world.

[354] Cars that people really buy.

[355] No supercars.

[356] No foreign travel.

[357] going to drive proper cars that people buy in this country and then that didn't last very long at all we realized that's not what people wanted not what we wanted to make we never made it with any science or calculation we just made the best car show we could and we were lucky things aligned the world wanted that show three misshapen blokes talking about their passion.

[358] But I do think if you'd have watched that pottery show.

[359] I don't care about pottery at all, but watching people who are so into it, you know, the lovely chap cries when somebody does something, it's like, wow, watching people engage with, indulge or share their passion is incredibly compelling, whether it's for making pottery or baking or dancing.

[360] It doesn't matter.

[361] Or cars, it doesn't matter.

[362] I want to know more about why.

[363] Like, why did people love it?

[364] You're touching on some psychological elements there, but what is it doing for the viewer at home in terms of the, what is it giving them?

[365] Because it's not just cars.

[366] Oh, no, no. It was, we were still a car show, but we always say, you don't have to be a car to watch it.

[367] We do that for you.

[368] I think it was a means of escape, but through a relatable portal.

[369] Because you could look at all of us three.

[370] And let's be honest, we're none of us Brad Pitt we're none of us pretty any good anything really you could I think people would always find they'd identify with one of the three of us am I the little short squeaky bromine one or the more graceful long -haired slightly fat one or the really big fat shouty one which one am I which one and you'd fall into one of those camps and so that would sort of take you along with us on whatever eventually we were going on it's why we ended up making today the big trips because that's what people like the proper escape The one thing that troubles me, though, is about that business about the subject being important.

[371] If you're going to make a TV show, a podcast, piece of internet content, whatever, about something, the subject leads.

[372] It has to.

[373] It has to have that authenticity and integrity to it, because we, the audience, will see you when it doesn't.

[374] And it's a cast, for some reason, are always, if somebody's going to make a TV show or a piece of internet content about it, they say, right, we do this.

[375] about cars okay and then they don't get anybody who knows about cars involved in making it but you wouldn't do that if it was baking or dancing or cooking or sport or football i mean you wouldn't you'd want that baked in because it's not so that you're wrong foot your consumers your listeners your viewers or catch them out or show off that you know more than they do but you can demonstrate yeah this is real this this this is an authentic passion and we always kept that right at the forefront it wasn't big but it was there even though what we were doing was ridiculous often.

[376] How much of it was scripted per se?

[377] I was watching some clips earlier on and there was such moments of brilliance.

[378] I was wondering, is that like a producer in their ear telling them to crack that joke or to like say that to him?

[379] Or is that just them being comfortable enough to be free?

[380] The really good bits are in the moment.

[381] But I mean, that's easy to guess, isn't it?

[382] You'll have said some killer funny or incredibly moving things in the moment.

[383] That's when we do our best work, all of us.

[384] So we would always devise a broad trajectory for the whole thing.

[385] If we're making a special, it's expensive.

[386] So we can't just, oh, we'll just get a Mongolia and see if some stuff happens.

[387] You've got to set something up.

[388] But you know, that's the minimum you're going to come back with.

[389] And you know the best bits will be the unplanned bits, of course, always.

[390] Was there a moment in the journey of Top Gear where you thought to yourself, fucking oh this is really what this is big oh well the surprise moment it was day one studio one series one standing in dunce fault so this is 2002 very early or maybe 2001 we filmed it I think can't remember a long time ago standing on the stage and you know I'd always watch Top Gear because I loved cars and I'd watch Jeremy on it because he's older than me and he was already doing it And so as we were, it was recording one, they played in the top gear theme.

[391] And my instant response from inside was, oh, top gear's on.

[392] Brilliant.

[393] Oh, I'm on it.

[394] I better concentrate.

[395] But yeah, there were key moments once when we were driving three cup price supercars that we'd bought.

[396] And we pulled into a petrol station.

[397] So this is early days.

[398] And everybody came out running to see us and to talk about the cars.

[399] And they sort of got that, oh, what are you boys doing?

[400] What are you up to now?

[401] And that's when we realized, oh, hang on, we've created something here.

[402] It's got a momentum of its own, which is great.

[403] And it really did have a momentum on its own globally.

[404] No idea why.

[405] Honestly, none of us have.

[406] None of us have.

[407] It was, we just made the best show we could.

[408] And next thing we know, we're walking out in front of 30 ,000 people on stage in South Africa or Sydney or Hong Kong or all around the world doing the live stage shows with people that loved the show.

[409] left, why?

[410] We went out in front of 60 ,000 people in the Polish National Stadium in Warsaw.

[411] And just before we went out on stage, I said the lads backstage and we have those earpieces and microphones so you can only hear each other, otherwise too much noise.

[412] And they're all, there's music playing, we're about to all drive out with some terrible stunts.

[413] I usually hadn't listened to the briefing, so there'd be a crash.

[414] And just before when I said, lads, have three guys with less talent ever gone out in front of more people?

[415] No, no, that's ever happened.

[416] It was just a serendipitous lining up of a need for a slightly anarchic approach.

[417] I don't know.

[418] What happened?

[419] It was just a time.

[420] Came and went when we fitted.

[421] Someone asked me on an interview I did earlier on, it was on Arcadia magazine, they said, is there any guilt associated with your success?

[422] And it's quite a curious question.

[423] And it stunned me into a bit of a silence.

[424] Gilt.

[425] How does that question sit with you?

[426] Is there any guilt?

[427] Same thing.

[428] Yeah, there is.

[429] It's, it's, it's slightly more refined that.

[430] It's almost a why me. It's, what?

[431] Yeah, because I'm still the little Birmingham lad that being a photographer wasn't for me. That's for other people.

[432] I can't do that.

[433] I can't actually be a photographer for real in the big world.

[434] And if somebody had said I could, you know, run various businesses and be a television presenter and no, don't be daft.

[435] There's not guilt.

[436] It's been conscious of being the beneficiary of a great deal of luck.

[437] When I was younger, I went through a phase of, yeah, but I was, you know, luck often lands at two in the morning and you're the only one still in the radio station editing, so that's where I'm...

[438] No, it's just luck.

[439] It really is, because I've got people who started in the same year as me, 88, and I've got all the luck.

[440] I took some serendipitous decisions.

[441] I took some risky decisions I stepped away from my only ever job with a company car back into broadcasting and took a massive pay car I took a massive pay hit when I joined Top Gear they were risks but they're only risks if they're freely made given that they were the product of whatever it was in me that was driving me to do what I was doing it was already going to happen so I'm lucky because not only did that opportunity come along but earlier in my life something had happened and equipped me with the need to gain whatever it was I stood a chance of gaining from taking that risk so I took that risk so it's still luck it's still luck somebody else could have had that same opportunity but they hadn't been lucky enough on top of that to have been given that extra impetus to pursue it and take that risk by something that had happened earlier in their lives so it's luck and I've just been very lucky That's a strange feeling, though, isn't it?

[442] To think that you got to live this life because of a set of factors that you're born in a certain place in a certain way and then that created that impetus you describe and then the dominoes that fell and the decisions you chose to make because of all of those subsequent experiences lands you with this incredible job with an incredible level of freedom.

[443] It can be quite, as you say, a why me like feeling.

[444] Yeah.

[445] Is it guilt?

[446] It kind of is it tastes slightly differently, but it is sort of, is it embarrassment?

[447] Is it slightly embarrassing?

[448] Is that why having, God, accidentally stepped into so many luck traps, I'm now, you know, running my businesses.

[449] And because that's something I'll feel I can say, no, I did that.

[450] That wasn't just lucky I made that happen.

[451] by consciously taking decisions by thinking about it.

[452] Maybe, I don't know, but then I'm lucky enough to have the opportunity to do that, which I would never have had.

[453] So it's all, the whole experiment of my life has been skewed entirely by those key elements of luck at those key stages.

[454] But we all have those.

[455] We're lucky to be alive, and it's easy to say that, and it sounds trite and nonsensical, but we are.

[456] And for each one of us to experience how, our own individual perception of the universe to live this experience is so phenomenally lucky, so many millions and billions of things have to not just have happened, but continue happening for that to be possible, that whether or not whilst experiencing this miracle of self -awareness in and of the universe, we also get to go on the telly, driving about in a car or not, it's kind of irrelevant at the end.

[457] This, having this conversation, being aware, of having loved ones, being aware of yourself in the world, being aware of the world.

[458] All of that.

[459] That's the amazing stuff.

[460] The rest is just stuff.

[461] And that's easy to say for me because I'm not that worried about my next phone bill.

[462] It's a lot harder if you are.

[463] I get that.

[464] And I'm not failing to be aware of that.

[465] And right now for a lot of people, whether or not they get to do a job on TV driving around in cars, or whether or not they get to look at the universe and talk about the idea of God and love existing or not with their mates is kind of less important than they've just had to have a prepaid meter fitted for their gas so the answer to that guilt, embarrassment I think carry it with you maybe learn from it look up from it occasionally think how can I what can I can it make me better able to connect with people just that would be useful what's your opinion of yourself you know when you what's the this is it was a really interesting question but um you said something which which kind of brought me to this question about this idea that maybe the building these businesses that you have now is another pursuit of like proving one is worthy i guess because because of i someone i want to prove i'm not a lucky idiot um so what does that say that's why i said what's your opinion of yourself oh it's probably i guess for that reason as i've probably just revealed it's probably quite low isn't it um i'm very conscious I've been very lucky, I think, to describe myself.

[466] What does the voice in Richard's head say Richard is, who he is, what is?

[467] He'd like to be more fair about her life.

[468] That troubles me, I think, fairness, and I'm aware it's desperately unfair.

[469] But also, yeah, as with a lot of us, I'm fairly anxious inside.

[470] need need to be loved same desperately need to be reassured and one of the dangers I mean I should imagine your finest given you know you're young and enjoying a stellar career in what are archetypal positions of power and authority so it's very likely that the world will look at you and think well he's the last one that needs a bit of reassurance and chuck on the shoulder and someone to say are you doing really well well done whereas actually you do and I certainly find And that's something that I need.

[471] I need someone to acknowledge that things are going well and you're taking advantage of whatever luck comes your way.

[472] And, you know, I love building my businesses up because I love the fact that I'm conscious.

[473] That's other people's jobs.

[474] This is their story I'm helping build.

[475] If they get working with me at 24, even if they only work with me for five years, they'll remember that forever like I remember the first radio stations I worked at.

[476] This is their history.

[477] We're taking a part in writing.

[478] I'm conscious of that.

[479] But at the same time, sometimes you just need someone to ruffle your hair and go, well done.

[480] And that would be nice.

[481] Yeah.

[482] I'm not asking you to ruffle my hair, just because I'm slightly awkward if you're done.

[483] Cheers, but, you know.

[484] I guess it's quite curious because someone would, someone looking in might think, well, you know, Richard's done so much in his life.

[485] He must just be absolutely satisfied and he must be, feel completely complete and like there's nothing more else to prove.

[486] or to, but the business point you made sounds like you feel like you have something to prove there.

[487] Yeah, and I'm 53.

[488] I've got another go -round in me yet.

[489] I'd like to have.

[490] I don't know, when you're thinking about time off, if you've ever got time off coming out, which I shouldn't imagine is very often, and I know it isn't for me either.

[491] But when it is, I always think, yeah, God, I'd love to just take a week and wake up every day and just go for a run and then maybe ride an old motorcycle and just really, Really reveling, no, I don't.

[492] Immediately, I am hideously addicted to work.

[493] But that's hardly surprising, given that work has also been self -verification and it's the reward that I probably shouldn't have had.

[494] So obviously I'm addicted to that.

[495] There's a cost about that, right?

[496] Yeah, yeah, if you're not careful.

[497] What's the cost?

[498] Your relationships.

[499] You know, my two daughters.

[500] I've made excuses over the years often sitting in a rainforest.

[501] filming and to be a camera operator and maybe it's a bloke and he's just at his first children and he's away from home and he's upset and I've said yeah but you've got to remember you know you're their first example of how to lead a life you can see where this is going and you know you're going to come back with amazing stories and they're going to look and think wow well if he can pursue his dreams and do that I can pursue mine and you'll inspire them yeah but they also just were quite like you to be around that's a fact um yeah I've been able to provide well for my girls Izzy and Willow I wish I'd been there more of course I do but if I'd been there more we wouldn't have been where we were I can our life would be so different because I've worked sort of in and out of London for 25 years and we've lived deliberately out of London they've been raised in Herefordshire that's their county that's where they belong my eldest I bumped into her in London this week she popped into the flap and she'd just been out in a pub in Fulham and pretty much everybody in there was from her county of Herefordshire and she knew them all and that's important that she can drift around London and know people or she can drift around her home county and the same for Willow and that's important for them they've got a bigger view of the world but they still have a home to go to and always shall have Have you ever pondered that you might because I'm a workolic I've overdone it No no no yeah well basically I'm definitely addicted to work and sometimes just still the pursuit of like building and creating things and you know success and I sometimes ponder in certain moments it will just catch me that this isn't what it's all about and that I'm like missing the point and going back to my point earlier I'm being dragged by a need for validation whereas I'm going to get to my deathbed be laying there and go so I just wish I'd just gone and hang out on a mountain with my partner in Peru a little bit more and been there you know for my kids my dog this but you didn't and there's no magic in this it's simply what happens is what happens and that's the way you've gone and the way your collected experience if you imagine you are the sort of front of a tsunami of stuff and that's the way it's taken you that's the way it's taking you there's good and there's bad within it I don't I never feel actual solid regret ever because that's the way it went so I just don't feel it good and bad I'm not saying this is a good quality but I just don't feel it and not because I engineer it out of myself I simply don't feel it because that's the way I've gone.

[502] It also helps you sort of live now, which is, that's a huge part of the answer.

[503] You could continue being driven as you are by work for the rest of your life.

[504] If you're able to be, you know, mindfully present and actually experience it, then great.

[505] All of that will come into it.

[506] You talked about a crash earlier.

[507] While you were filming Top Gear now.

[508] Yeah, not a very good driver, me. 36 years old, 2006, I believe.

[509] Yeah.

[510] take me to that day well we'd had a discussion in the office and I have told this story before and some people you might be bored of it sorry Andy Wilman the editor had said he'd got this chance for this car to be driven and I'd gone into the office saying look I just want to go really fast as fast as we can go it's that dumb an idea they came up with this car and I went to drive and I turned up on the day did numerous runs in the thing it was pretty basic and crude really quite fast especially when you lit the afterburner um chair propelled dragster I didn't have a speedo in the car because they knew I'd be chasing speeds and that would be dangerous so there was no speeder I didn't know how fast I was going until after the event you stopped it to stop it from high speed had to pull parachute cord to stop the parachute came out and stopped it and I'd done all the day's runs and the director came over and said, Rich, I've got permission for one last run.

[511] Oh, brilliant, right.

[512] We were happy with how it's gone, but let's get one more bag of shots.

[513] And I was aware something had happened.

[514] All I recall is a sense of, oh no, foot going towards a break and realized I was doing three, I didn't know, but I was doing 300, just shy of 320 miles an hour, so breaks are not doing anything.

[515] The car, what had happened is the front tire had delaminated and blown.

[516] the car had skewed right and was going off the road but it was still doing 290 miles an hour as it started to roll I'd pull the lever for the parachute which was all that mattered to me when I finally weeks or months later became aware of what was happening I needed to know had I done that because I looked at my children and thought if I've nearly denied you a father for the rest of your lives because I'm an idiot and I did the wrong thing I wouldn't forgive myself but I did do the right thing so it just it was never going to stop it so then it went over and it rolled and as it went over I knew there's no roof just a roll bar I didn't know how fast I was going but I knew it was fast and I just thought well I'm going to die now but it wasn't again I'm on record of saying this and I don't want to go on about it because I get self -conscious I don't want anybody to think oh stop going on about that and I'm not but if you are interested I found it interesting that there There was no fear associated with that.

[517] There was no, oh no. There was genuinely, it was answering a question that kind of at the back of my mind had always wondered.

[518] And I think a lot of us do, all of us.

[519] When am I going to die?

[520] How?

[521] Why?

[522] And it was like, oh, it's now.

[523] That's the answer.

[524] That's the next thing to do.

[525] That was it.

[526] And then I wasn't conscious again until in hospital.

[527] And I was conscious, apparently, when they got to the car, but I have no recollection.

[528] Because the damage was done.

[529] Brain decelerative sloshing forward, so frontal lobe.

[530] bleed because just decelerating upside down using my head as a break um it it isn't good for you have you heard the story about what was going on in your your family at that time well while you were unconscious in hospital who called mindy your wife yeah mindy was called um she was on the road she was called by uh willman they all spoke it was hard and my daughters were young and for them to grasp it was pretty, pretty difficult.

[531] Yeah, it's disruptive, it's horrible, and it's hard.

[532] In my memories that are all over the place anyway, because I had very bad post -traumatic amnesia for weeks, like a one -minute memory, which Mindy my wife always says I was the nicest I've ever been.

[533] I was lovely, apparently.

[534] I was perfectly happy.

[535] Which does make me, and has made me think often since, that, you know, I've got a friend who's, you know, we all have friends, perhaps, or ourselves whose parents are, through whatever degenerative form of illness, losing memories.

[536] And I always say to him, is she happy?

[537] Yeah, fine.

[538] If I go to see them, she'll come into the pub to see me three or four times and he's equally happy each time, that's all right, it doesn't matter.

[539] and I was perfectly happy reading the same newspaper every single day several times a day I just it was by my bed I just pick it up and oh brilliant I'd sit down and read it put it down minute later gone until Mindy took it away because she was sick of seeing me read it but it was more distressing and really the message there is yeah as if it's if somebody is in that confused state of whatever variety and for whatever reason if they're happy they're happy then all you've got to do is cope to support them in that happiness It doesn't matter if they can't remember who you are, what anything is.

[540] If they're happy, they're happy.

[541] And that's that.

[542] And I was.

[543] When you're in that coma, I watched the video you produced about your incredibly powerful video about your morphine dream and the crooked tree on the hill.

[544] Is that true?

[545] There was a morphine, you...

[546] Yeah, I was as we held in coma because brain was expanding post -crash, so it was, there were holding me in coma, but it was looking very, very bad.

[547] And they had called Mindy Inn.

[548] And they said, I think we're losing him.

[549] I think I could do.

[550] She said, is there anything I can do?

[551] Not really.

[552] Try anything.

[553] Can I shout, yeah?

[554] So she roared and shouted out me, don't you dead?

[555] I'm really quite swearing cross.

[556] Why did she do that?

[557] Because she was cross.

[558] She didn't want me to die.

[559] I think there's lots of people have done that.

[560] I think I'd do that.

[561] but when all else is tried and failed if somebody is lying there yeah last resort don't you dare because you know she wanted to be around I think we'd all do that it's not just a movie trope you can you are calling to somebody and I think we know in our heart of hearts we do have a great deal of independence in terms of what happens to us our mind is a powerful thing mind and body are one chiropractor friend of mine chiropractor he'll kill me for that osteopath a friend of mine Steve sorry Steve osteopath very well read man and we were talking about mind and body as one and about you know bringing I said something about bringing mind and body to work together and all together and he said well yeah well it is all one because it's never been apart Oh, yeah.

[562] Your body and mind have never existed separately.

[563] They've only ever existed as one and one needs the other and compliments and one is the other.

[564] Which is why if in that coma state, and it's only an altered state of consciousness, I'm not dead, I picked up on the emotion from Mindy, the anger, and thought, ooh, I said the dream was honestly all going to be in trouble now.

[565] It's not funny anymore.

[566] It's a very distinctive flavour of, you know, when you're feeling you're being a bit naughty and you're being cheeking, you're getting, and then you're going to go, no, I really am in trouble and that's when she was really roaring and shouting.

[567] And yes, our mind can do an awful lot with our bodies.

[568] There's enough evidence of that over the years.

[569] Your mind took you to your favourite place.

[570] Which gives me immense comfort, because it will do that eventually anyway.

[571] I know that's where I'll go.

[572] And given that at the moment of dying, of the body.

[573] shutting down of it stopping to do all the things that it does you're no longer tied by all those by time not biological rhythms lunar rhythms none of those matter you're no beholden to them anymore which is a kind of eternity so if my last thought had been walking around that tree in I was up there two weeks ago the lake district yeah went to the same tree if my mind takes me around And that thought echoes for all of eternity as far as I'm concerned.

[574] And really, the universe only exists as far as I'm concerned or you're concerned.

[575] It's only your perception of it.

[576] And if that last moment is no longer constrained by worrying about heartbeats or cycling of the seasons, it's kind of an eternity, isn't it?

[577] And I wouldn't mind hanging around by that tree forever.

[578] What was happening in that dream?

[579] So you were in a coma and you have a...

[580] sort of a morphine -induced dream where you're walking up a hill.

[581] Yeah, I was walking up the hill towards a tree, and I grew increasingly conscious that, oh, I'm going to be in trouble for carrying on.

[582] No, no, I'm going to carry it.

[583] I just want to press it on.

[584] And then as I reached the tree, it was a very clear, oh, no, I really am going to be in trouble.

[585] I better go back.

[586] And that's the point.

[587] I just related that story as a unit to Mindin.

[588] It was very clear when I was brought out of coma shortly after, and that's when it had happened.

[589] I mean, it could be a story.

[590] Don't forget your brain fills in things after.

[591] to the fact.

[592] A sense of recollection is all you need for something to be in the past.

[593] It doesn't have to actually be in the past.

[594] But I've retained I've gained immense comfort from it.

[595] I find it very comforting and warming to think so I'll continue to think it.

[596] Why is it comforting and warming to think?

[597] Because I think the question of what happens since we are aware of our own mortality.

[598] aware of the world and we're aware that it's quite nice being here to be aware of it and if that's one possible resolution one possible that might be where it goes that's all right for me it's not the not the first time um you had a car crash well no nor the last yeah i've had a lot yes i went off a hill in switzerland yeah that was just again idiocy failed to break at the finish line went off.

[599] I did think I was dying on that one.

[600] After that first major crash, the one where you were going 300 or 19 odd miles an hour, did your risk appetite change?

[601] Kind of no, because it was always assessed as risk.

[602] I knew there was risk.

[603] And we had done everything we could mitigate against that.

[604] The air ambulance came.

[605] I was saved.

[606] No. It has done more latterly.

[607] but that's because I'm getting older, I think.

[608] No, it didn't really radically change it.

[609] You came remarkably close to your two young girls not having a father.

[610] And getting close to that reality must leave some kind of perspective change or some kind of...

[611] It would certainly make me think about the prospect and maybe start planning differently or possibly did that but then getting older does that passing 40 passing 50 does that it's in line with everything else that's ever happened in my life it doesn't really stand out massively it did for a while but it doesn't now stand out as a particularly that's or hang everything on that because there's also passing 40 there's all those other milestones that we all have and processes that we go through and subtle and not so subtle shifts in our priorities needs that happens that's just that's just woven into the fabric of my life and it's just one couple of stitches in it after the crash you experienced depression yeah I mean I was told Mindy was told by the doctors that a frontal lobe brain injury would possibly lead to me having a greater propensity for obsession compulsion depression depression paranoia Mindy left a pause my wife and just you didn't meet him before the crash did you which is quite funny to be fair it's got a good line yeah I think I did suffer a bit I'd suffered all of those things to a degree yeah insomuch as I became aware of them as a thing because I could feel them from the inside and see through them to the outside so yeah I was aware of them all of those things obsession compulsion paranoia yeah depression yeah what were the symptoms of that that made you realise that it was a reality for you?

[612] How are you different?

[613] What did you feel?

[614] Some of them were really weird moments and I still get an echo of it.

[615] I remember having been institutionalised for a long time in hospitals and actually in recovery when I thought I was free.

[616] I wasn't really, I was still being monitored and I was still being carefully guided.

[617] But when I was really free, I would have, I'd be coming into London to do something and I could open the wardrobe door and just look at all the shirts and just trying to work out, oh, it was too much.

[618] Choice was a problem.

[619] I found choice really difficult for quite a long time.

[620] But also, I mean, feeling your emotions derailed or interfered with as a result of what is only a neurochemical imbalance, that's all we're talking about, it's just chemicals and electricity.

[621] I was walking across my drive of my house, and I felt this sudden, welling, upsurge of low.

[622] in my chest.

[623] What's that?

[624] This is not that long out.

[625] Oh, I was still on the road to recovery, I suppose.

[626] And eventually I identified, I'd ward past my old Land Rover, which I do love, but only because I quite like it.

[627] It's an old Land Rover, but it just triggered this absolutely, I thought, blimey.

[628] It made me think.

[629] And if emotions can be that profoundly affected by what was just a mix -up of chemicals and electricity in my head, then I am more aware of, I don't listen to emotions too closely if I'm very very tired or if I've had a big night out with the boys the night before if I've drunk red wine I do not tune in to see what I think about anything because it's irrelevant for a day those are the rules I've been quite lucky for that reason that I've had that slightly more objective look at my own self on that road to recovery what was was there a hardest day where you look back and go that was the most challenging for my myself in Mindy and...

[630] Oh, there were loads.

[631] So anger was...

[632] I was angry for a while.

[633] Really?

[634] Massively, but anger is a problem in people recovering from brain injury.

[635] The weirdest thing, though, I've chatted to so many people who've recovered from acquired brain injury, acquired in so many different ways from being shot to falling off a ladder, to a car crash, whatever.

[636] And the similarities are astonishing in the road to recovery.

[637] Really are.

[638] The confusions, the weaknesses, the slight it's not guilt I mean I wanted a T -shirt on the front said I'm okay stop asking and on the back that said I'm still poorly you know because you it's if you run for a bus for a while since you ran for a bus but if one were to run for a bus and you twist your ankle and you sort of carry on running on the I'm all right to find it's a bit like that with what I'd done but of course what I'd injured was every was me where I am and how I see where I am there's a horrible circularity to that type of injure and I had a close friend who again was similarly injured falling off a horse because he's an idiot and again massive similarities there are more different man you couldn't imagine he has dignity status gravitas great family everything I'm not but his experience of recovery very very similar are there any remnants of the accident in terms of injuries?

[639] Probably, but there's probably remnants of everything that's happened to you in your life and everything's happened to me and mine.

[640] Are you aware of any?

[641] Is Mindy aware of any?

[642] No. I worry, I do worry about my memory because it's not brilliant.

[643] My working memory is very large, my sort of processing memory in the moment, so I can still read a page of script and deliver it.

[644] But my longer term, not brilliant.

[645] I have to consciously write.

[646] right memories down and work hard to recall them sometimes now that might be because i'm 50 it might be big or 53 might be because i'm working a lot and i'm tired it might be the onset of something else do you worry about that yeah i do i do i should probably have a look find out probably should um are you scared to find out yeah yeah because you know it was a blizzard on the front it could mean there's an increased risk I don't know I need to find out I've just I have been too scared to do it but I do need to I need to I need to do it weirdly on the way here I had to stop off for a medical when you're doing a production you all know you have to have a medical which always has been involved in any accidents I can have another piece of paper please I'm still going.

[647] Very nice doctor and at the end I said yeah I should definitely I need to put myself in for one of those midlife MOTs to see if everything's okay and I wanted to say and to check there's nothing going awry up here but I just chickened out didn't I probably need an MRI scan but at 53 you know your memory does start to get a bit they call it Lost Keys Syndrome the doctors did when I first came home from brain injury and they have it with a lot of patience because you know they would lose their keys and go into an absolute flat tailspin panic oh no i've lost my keys it's brain no you've just lost your keys it happens i am quite forgetful i'm generally not paying attention generally thinking about something else the next thing and therefore i do drop the ball i forget stuff i lose stuff i forget keys but that's just that's just me that's not a function of something going wrong it's how i am Isn't it such a peculiar thing that humans will avoid finding out something if they think there's potentially bad news on the end of it?

[648] I was reading some, I think, some crazy study I was reading about over Christmas while I was writing about how, if someone is diagnosed with breast cancer at work and they're in close proximity to you, you're less likely to go and get a check -up.

[649] Really?

[650] Yeah.

[651] Which is counter to what we would imagine was the game.

[652] You'd assume, but it's this avoidance of discomfort, the psychological discomfort associate with finding out.

[653] bad news and I um I had a procrastination expert on the podcast once upon a time and he said whenever you're procrastinating on something it's because there's some sort of psychological discomfort associated with the activity and i say you don't feel competent about so you end up just doing the dishes all day or whatever it might be so when you're procrastinating you've got to ask yourself that question what is the psychological discomfort here that i'm trying to avoid so i'm asking you richard what is the psychological discomfort you're trying to avoid and why quite simply facing something i wouldn't want to face it's my own doom it's all that It's, I would find it very difficult to talk to my family and say, right, this is what's coming.

[654] I know I'd be all right, as I've said, if you're in a confused state, I doesn't bother you.

[655] But I'd feel bad putting that on them.

[656] Yeah, I want them to have a future full of hope and clarity and energy and vigor and potential and fun.

[657] And I don't want to interrupt that.

[658] that's heavy yeah but life is there is there isn't yeah it's interesting you know this conversation about like health anxiety I think it's one worth having and trying to get to a solution on because whether it's that or whether it's a lump I feel somewhere or whether it's a testicle that's a bit of a strange shape or whatever it might be that we do a lot of us live with this health anxiety of like if I just ignore it then it's not a thing but then obviously ignoring it with many ailments causes it to be a thing.

[659] Yeah, but it's not surprising that we don't want to face it.

[660] Surely not.

[661] I don't think that requires a procrastination expert who I did hear and I have heard him on the radio as well and I always laugh about when it turns up obviously the science of procrastination but I don't think it requires that to realise of course we don't want to know.

[662] We're aware of ourselves We're aware of the fact that we're aware of the world, and we enjoy that process.

[663] Daffodil doesn't have to stand around worrying about being a daffodil.

[664] It just is a daffodil.

[665] I think as you get older, you can make that process easier.

[666] I do find, you know, practicing a bit of mindfulness, or thinking about things, asking about things, talking about things can make it easier.

[667] And you don't have to imagine a world without you in because you won't be in it.

[668] So you are only in your world for as long as you're in it.

[669] And that's eternity as far as you're concerned.

[670] Have you spoken to Mindy about that anxiety?

[671] So it's not an elephant in the room.

[672] No, no, no. And she's pushed you to go get checked, doesn't she?

[673] Yeah, probably should.

[674] Yeah.

[675] I will.

[676] Yeah.

[677] If anything, it does demonstrate that we are much more emotional and a lot less logical than we think we are.

[678] You know, because the logical decision would be, I have a lump.

[679] I should go get it checked.

[680] Yes.

[681] Humans tend to go, I mean, they often just Google it and convince themselves they have something even worse, or they just avoid.

[682] But also, I mean, you don't want to show weakness, and that again is perfectly normal.

[683] Well, both my daughters and my wife, they're all into horses.

[684] But my youngest daughter Willow, her horse, was unwell.

[685] And she pointed out to me that they have evolved to be incredibly good at masking pain and discomfort because they're a herd animal.

[686] if they're not in the herd they die so they need to hide it they need to yeah I'm just one of the lads here I am I'm fine yeah I'll run with you over there and they will do because that's her only chance of survival the moment they say I'm feeling a bit crooked so I might stay here I'm not saying we're horses no but it's a great analogy and one I think I can relate to you know being a CEO and always being the leader you've got to be I'm fine I'm fine yeah what have you masked Oh God Unsecurity Not being sure of the way forwards Also simply tiredness But I quite enjoy that I enjoy being up first It's dumb But I like it You know if I've got people If we are all away with work And we're all staying together I like to be up first Go for a run Partly to signal to myself rich you're more important than all of this and that's important and partly to signal to them that no young don't worry i've got this i've not only got this i've got this before i've got this so we'll be fine well um like that injured horse analogy is there anything that you've masked that you've masked because you'd think it would be a weakness i know i certainly have i reflect on it especially in my career when i was younger when i was struggling i would not i wouldn't tell person because I couldn't believe that a CEO and a man could possibly express that.

[687] But that's different now, surely.

[688] I think it is far easier.

[689] I mean, I think, you know, the patriarchal society and all the stereotypes and tropes contained within it, I've done just as much damage to men in many ways, different damage.

[690] But that inability to share, that inability to show, I think that has changed or is changing.

[691] Although I have to be very carefully because I live in a frightfully nice middle class bubble and I've fallen foul with this before because I live in a very happy world where there is no in my little world there is no racism homophobia sexism bullying it's nice and then it's easy to forget and then you say things based on that and then you look out at the broader world and realise oh hang on a minute that really isn't doing much for the situation of somebody living here or coping with that but I think on the whole it's easier now to share things.

[692] Was there a point where you can recall opening up and the positive consequence of opening up in a way that you maybe haven't before?

[693] Because I can think of times where, for the first time ever, I've just said to my partner, look, I've got to tell you something.

[694] This is how I'm feeling about this.

[695] And old Steve, we never would have done that.

[696] He would have been too much of a tough guy.

[697] He would have seen it as just a tremendous weakness.

[698] I can't remember when that happens.

[699] I know, I mean, I'm off up to the, the late district this weekend and I will see Les my oldest mate is a shepherd up there an AED who runs the bridge and my two brothers are coming with me and we're going to have a sort of supper on the Saturday evening we're going to cook and it is the most natural thing in the world for that's five four very disparate people with very disparate jobs as a headteacher stockbroker the television presents a businessman a man running a hotel and a shepherd but we will we'll share things very happily and it feels the most natural thing in the world it doesn't feel like oh no let's be really serious and let's share our animals's feelings and let's be supportive and not and it can be knockabout it doesn't have to be artificially gentle and all on a bed of cotton wall we can still take the pace we can still have a laugh but we are doing it with love we are we need that yeah oh yeah yeah yeah very definitely men especially men more so because they're useless at it and realizing that these things have value and it's okay and it doesn't mean you have to turn into something you don't want to turn into or change you as a person i have really rugged chats with my mates from forces often soldiers are pretty good at it nowadays ex -military yeah fess up to how you feel why not nothing to be ashamed of your beautiful young daughters um isabel and willow they turn to you and they say dad what advice would you give me on living a full content, happy life I'd rather just ask me for money I would say I've got a beautiful picture here that I found oh that is them on the internet bless them that's after doing some show rather yeah that is them I would say well they already are in a way they make wise decisions they're clever willow had got into the younger she'd got into a couple of good universities to do psychology she loved it she's interested in it she's bright that both are um but she'd got a bit quieter about it and we said what's up she said well i'll do the psychology but we know the only thing i've really been passionate about his horses and matt is equestrian and i don't want to get five years from now and think oh i could have done it.

[700] I said, no, you're absolutely right.

[701] And if there's one piece of luck, you need to take advantage of it.

[702] It's that I'm not, I can afford to look after you for a bit longer.

[703] So if you want to go and explore it and then in five years time, you'll be able to say, yeah, I did it or I did it and failed.

[704] That's better than not.

[705] So they're already thinking quite wisely about their futures.

[706] What does that picture mean to you in terms of the people in it?

[707] they're the most important people in my world but I've been taken away I've taken myself away from them too much over the years in order to support them but actually the support they needed sometimes with me being there and that's the hardest thing and I can't undo that and there's me saying I have no regrets I regrets are a funny I don't feel it as a real pain like I wish I could go back and change it because I know I can't so I simply don't feel it in that way but I do wish I'd found a way of being there with and for them more just as me rather than as me being away in a jungle or on a glacier earning lots of money and sending it home and Mindy yeah I include Mindy in that they all three shout to me when I go home yeah but they're the reason you know the reason I do it and that is the truth you've been through a lot with Mindy a lot she's been through a lot with me poor thing we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest not knowing who they're leaving it for the question that's been left for you is what is the single greatest piece of advice that you have ever been given oh single greatest piece of advice of ever been given and I've known some really wise people Tim Jackson who was my boss at Renaud we lost him last year absolutely tremendous man and he he would have given me lots of advice because he was I mean it was to Tim Jackson actually that I'd broken out of radio because I was starving to death and realised I was never going to get to make motoring TV shows based in a bed sit somewhere in the north i needed to get down to where the work was so i got a job at renner uk in the press office and my boss there was tim jackson who was a PR director and just the loveliest man he only gave me the job because during the interview he'd been he'd realized i was wearing a pair of shoes i had buckles and laces and he'd drawn them throughout the interview he said to his secretary look at that i mean i think we're given the job he told me to to follow it to it sounds really cheesy and i don't want to i don't want to dress it up as follow my heart but i knew i resigned twice because I got the job for a bit of TV work.

[708] So I actually did, I filmed the review of my company car, sent off to Pete Baker, and he said, yeah, okay, well, I can't promise you a lot of work, but I'll give you some.

[709] So I had to leave Renault.

[710] So I went back to Tim and said, Tim, I'm going.

[711] And tears in my eyes when I said it, we were both heartbroken because I really enjoyed working with him.

[712] And in fact, I went back in end of that week and said, no, I can't go, I'm staying.

[713] But then I went back in on the Monday, it said, no, I am going.

[714] And he absolutely said, no, you've got to go with it.

[715] you have to follow it while you can.

[716] And I think that applies to everything and anything because you won't always be able to.

[717] And maybe that's, maybe that's what it distills down to if you're thinking, should I do this?

[718] Well, can you do this?

[719] And might there come a time when you can't, in which case you should.

[720] And that's sort of what came out of what I had with that quite teary conversation over an egg sandwich one morning with Tim Jackson 20 odd years ago.

[721] Richard, thank you so much.

[722] It's an honour to meet you as someone I've watched since how is it.

[723] Yeah, all right.

[724] Thank you.

[725] No, but you're incredible for so many reasons, not least because of your success and everything, but really you're a remarkable communicator, someone I've really learned a lot from in that department, communication telling stories and keeping someone engaged through vivid language and your sort of tonal expression.

[726] It's really remarkable.

[727] And you've lived a life which is incredibly inspiring.

[728] So thank you so much for the inspiration.

[729] It means a huge honour to meet you today and to have the, opportunity to have this conversation for you.

[730] I was tremendously excited and you've over -delivered and then some in terms of everything I was hoping this conversation could be.

[731] So thank you.

[732] Thank you for your kind words.

[733] And I enjoyed it.

[734] And I look forward to seeing the next one.

[735] Thank you.