340 - Catfish Your Friends

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] And welcome to my favorite murder.

[2] That's pink -haired Georgia Heart Stark.

[3] Thank you.

[4] That's black -haired, brown -haired, Karen Kilgariff.

[5] It's kind of a, yeah, we're doing a summer brunette.

[6] Oh, yeah.

[7] Listener, dear listener, we got on our staff meeting this morning.

[8] I did not recognize Georgia.

[9] I also didn't have my glasses on.

[10] Yeah.

[11] But Georgia was talking and I was like, who's that?

[12] And it was because she had bleach blonde hair.

[13] Yeah, bleached orange.

[14] I'd call it a light orange.

[15] Was it?

[16] Uh -huh.

[17] Not in a good one.

[18] It's just from my far away eyeballs.

[19] And then, but now the final process has taken place.

[20] Yeah.

[21] I did my hair completely like baby pink.

[22] Yeah.

[23] It looks great.

[24] Like I had the stripes.

[25] Thank you.

[26] It's something I've always wanted to do.

[27] My hair is so dead and falling out by the clumpful.

[28] Yep.

[29] But I love it.

[30] And it's going to, you know, it's going to do more than anything.

[31] And this is really why I did it.

[32] is it's going to make me put my makeup on in the morning and put something cute on because I'm just such a slub lately?

[33] Sure.

[34] This will make my skin look sallow and weird if I'm not dressed.

[35] If you don't get ready.

[36] Yeah, so it's going to make me get ready.

[37] That is why I've always hesitated, like when my hair started going super gray where I have to diet every three weeks, there's been a couple of people who have tried to convince me to do a pastel hair color.

[38] Yeah.

[39] And I was like, but I wear the same black shirt and black pants.

[40] or some version of that outfit, like, you can't, you have to support the style.

[41] Yeah.

[42] You know what I mean?

[43] You have to meet the hairstyle with some more style.

[44] Do you think you'll ever let your grays?

[45] Because you have beautiful silvery, like, hair.

[46] Do you think, like underneath, do you think you'll let it grow out, maybe?

[47] But some of it's a little clear.

[48] So, like, that's when my part starts to look like.

[49] Right.

[50] It's just getting wider.

[51] And the first time I noticed that, I was like, oh, my God, I'm losing all my hair.

[52] And it's like, nope, it's just some hair, silver.

[53] some is clear.

[54] Oh, my God.

[55] So you're just looking at scalp.

[56] It's, I bet it would be the most beautiful hair.

[57] Like, I bet it's like what, you know, you see girls like nowadays who are like 23 and they dye their hair gray like as like a silvery gray and you're like, what are you doing in 20 years you're going to wish you didn't fucking have that anymore.

[58] Right.

[59] Although I think part of that look and part of the beauty of that look is then they have like perfect skin.

[60] Of course.

[61] Where if you have cracks and crevasses in your face like I do, it's like, Oh, yeah, a gray -haired lady.

[62] I think it'll just age me 15 years, so I'm going to hold off.

[63] That's smart.

[64] Until I get to that point.

[65] Wait 15 years.

[66] Okay.

[67] It's a plan.

[68] We've done it again.

[69] Let's do this podcast for 15 more years until you're ready to dye your hair gray.

[70] I'll be all gray by then, probably, so we can match it up.

[71] And then it'll be like a double reveal and a goodbye at the same time.

[72] And a goodbye, you guys are old and irrelevant now.

[73] Perfect.

[74] It, like, wait, sorry, we're not now.

[75] Speaking of which, I joined TikTok.

[76] Oh.

[77] Because I'm not going to be on it or anything like that.

[78] But my sister sends me so many TikTok videos and I watch so many that I was like, I started doing the thing where I would never download the app.

[79] I just open it, open the video, then close it.

[80] And then, you know, at 2 o 'clock in the morning, it just triggers itself somehow.

[81] and a girl is screaming or there's like a lady robot voice going, if you want to make the best salad, take a mason jar.

[82] Where you're like, what the fuck?

[83] Salads don't belong in mason jars.

[84] What are you fucking talking about?

[85] Layered.

[86] TikTok is a, yes, it's a world.

[87] I immediately was like, oh, I see why people are addicted to this, why they love it.

[88] It's hilarious.

[89] And also there's so many, like, CrossFit -looking couples.

[90] Oh, God.

[91] who have such bad taste in comedy.

[92] What kind of comedy are they doing?

[93] Oh, they're like making fun videos and stuff together.

[94] No, no, there's some people that are really, like, that are making up great ideas and doing, like, little scenes and bits.

[95] There's a thing that I noticed where there's people where a clip of comedy is playing, and then it's someone recording their wife laughing at it.

[96] What?

[97] And it's always like, fellows, you know when your wife does this thing and that thing.

[98] And she's like, and then she snorts.

[99] Oh, I'm kids, she snorts when she laughs.

[100] Girls who snort when they laugh, if it doesn't sound real, which half the time it doesn't, I get so uncomfortable.

[101] Not that, like, do your fucking thing, but...

[102] There's nothing worse than a person trying to do something because they think it'll get a certain kind of response.

[103] Right, right.

[104] Because you have to admit, like, if you're a person that's done that, and look, we've all done it, but you have to admit that you are not right, about everybody receiving your pseudo -cuteness in the same way.

[105] And the idea that you'd be trying to do a thing like as if you have a catchphrase or a tagline.

[106] It's like, I snort when I laugh.

[107] Now, I've definitely snorted a ton of times.

[108] A real snort when you laugh is you can tell it's real because the person turns bright red because it's not meant to be charming.

[109] It's actually an accident where you sound like some kind of animal, a barnyard animal.

[110] A pig, I think.

[111] A literal pig.

[112] I think I'm resentful of people doing things to appear a certain way because that's exactly why I would never eat in front of people for years and years.

[113] One wastes a lot of time in their life.

[114] Being self -conscious and trying to make plans around that self -consciousness instead of just not being self -conscious anymore.

[115] Yeah.

[116] Or working on the real problem.

[117] The puzzle pieces it takes to make yourself feel like you belong somewhere like you're good at.

[118] enough, this mental math.

[119] Am I saying the wrong thing?

[120] You know what I mean.

[121] Gymnastics.

[122] Mental gymnastics.

[123] And like, don't even, I can't even do gymnastics in real life.

[124] So, having to do that.

[125] Oh, you knew that?

[126] I'm offended that you didn't assume that I could do.

[127] We assume that we would have heard it by now if you could do gymnastics.

[128] Don't you think you would have unveiled that in episode 50?

[129] Do you know what I, that I tumble and twirl and stuff?

[130] Sure.

[131] You know what I am good at that I found.

[132] out recently that I'm excited to get better at is playing pool.

[133] Oh, nice.

[134] I'm a fucking pool shark.

[135] Can you believe that?

[136] From what, like, how did you learn it?

[137] Vince and I were in New York and we just, like, it was so hot out that all we could do was go to bars to cool off.

[138] Uh -huh.

[139] You know how that is.

[140] That's the only place that has air conditioning in New York City.

[141] So, oh, I did go to the Tenement Museum, too.

[142] Remember we've talked about that?

[143] Amazing.

[144] It was so fucking rad.

[145] Isn't it cool?

[146] It's so cool.

[147] And so we just started playing pool, and I just, like, fucking want it.

[148] I want it.

[149] But, I mean, did you ever do it as a kid?

[150] Yeah.

[151] Anyway, enough about me and being a pool shark.

[152] Just watch out.

[153] Was there, but I'm just saying, was there like a rumpus room at your mom's apartment complex or something?

[154] Like, how did you?

[155] Because it's kind of hard.

[156] It is.

[157] There's a logic to it.

[158] Were you kind of buzzed?

[159] Sometimes that does help.

[160] Oh, well, we were in a bar.

[161] So, yeah, probably.

[162] You weren't not drinking.

[163] I wasn't having an iced tea at a bar.

[164] It was a long island.

[165] No, just kidding.

[166] I would never drink those.

[167] Don't drink those kids.

[168] They'll just ruin your life.

[169] Your night.

[170] Well, you drink one and then you think you need three.

[171] That's the problem.

[172] That's my problem.

[173] Who invented the Long Island iced tea?

[174] Like a bartender just trying to get rid of the end of a bunch of bottles.

[175] Right?

[176] He's like, here's some orange schnapps and some fucking Malibu rum.

[177] And lemons are Sprite and Coke in it?

[178] I don't know.

[179] Well, I think that the, I think the mixture in there ends up tasting like Coke because it's the combination.

[180] Right.

[181] It's like when you do all the drinks, it's 7 -Eleven in your cup.

[182] And a little chili on top just for good measure.

[183] You're at 7 -Eleven, like, hey, do you have any celery or any kind of garnish that I can put on top of this?

[184] Big gulp?

[185] Hey, can I put some nacho cheese on this?

[186] Hey!

[187] Hey, hey.

[188] You have anything going on and you're, oh, can I share this that I went on Twitter for the first time in a long time.

[189] And I'm glad I did because a listener named Chloe Bumblebee is her name on Twitter.

[190] Let us know.

[191] It's actually pronounced Bumblebee, but that's fine.

[192] Bambalby.

[193] Bumbalby.

[194] Let us know that we are an answer slash question on freaking trivial pursuit.

[195] I saw that.

[196] What an honor.

[197] I know.

[198] I asked her to, I said, is this real?

[199] She said, absolutely.

[200] It's from the Trivial Pursuit Decades, 2010 through 2020 edition.

[201] Oh, nice.

[202] So now we know we're getting everyone for Hanukkah this year and Christmas.

[203] Amazing.

[204] Current, the current trivial pursuit, which is actually very meaningful in my family when the first version of the old school super hard trivial pursuit came out.

[205] So hard.

[206] So hard.

[207] The funniest thing.

[208] Because that will always remind me of my mom is when we would play it.

[209] She was so horrible to play games with.

[210] And when we would play Trivial Pursuit, she would always go, every card, every question that was read, no matter what it was, it would be like, the tallest waterfall in South America is.

[211] And then she goes, oh, that's so easy.

[212] Every single time on everyone.

[213] And we'd be like, come, mom, shut up.

[214] Who cares?

[215] Like, shut up.

[216] Did she really know that more where she's just trying to.

[217] like you out.

[218] But she was a big reader and she was kind of like a, she was the kind of person that wanted to be able to say, oh, this is really easy.

[219] Yeah.

[220] Like she could have gone on Jeopardy, those kinds of people.

[221] Yes.

[222] Well, to a degree.

[223] Yeah.

[224] Yeah.

[225] I don't know.

[226] If the categories are right, she could, yeah.

[227] Yeah.

[228] Also, I just wanted to say thanks to all the people who have been, I don't, I haven't missed a sinkhole for, I would say, the past five years.

[229] You will never miss a sinkhole again in your life.

[230] Never again.

[231] But the most recent one that all my friends have been telling me about is this one, sorry, let me get back to it.

[232] It's this one in Chile, humongous and the perfect circle, which there's another one like that in another country.

[233] And it's in the middle of the city.

[234] So there's all kinds of buildings around it.

[235] And then it just looks like a perfect pillar of land fell into the center of the earth.

[236] It's so crazy.

[237] That's some like War of the World's End Days looking type of thing, huh?

[238] It feels very appropriate for the times that we're living in right now.

[239] Oh, and also, but on a more positive note, which you will really perhaps like, or maybe even already own, I ordered this book mudlarked by Malcolm Russell because it's basically his history of mudlarking.

[240] Can you see these pictures?

[241] Yes, I love it.

[242] mudlarking, for those who don't know, is basically digging through dirt.

[243] It's like detectoring in rivers and lakes and water places and sand.

[244] Well, and I think specifically on the Thames because they used to use it as a garbage can, essentially.

[245] So there's, like, buttons from the 1500s.

[246] And it's everything that he's found, what it's been identified, the year and, like, what it is.

[247] Oh, my God.

[248] My toes are curling.

[249] I'm so excited.

[250] Right?

[251] Because I saw it when I was like, I was like, I need new books.

[252] But I always fall asleep if it's too dense or it's too dry, whatever.

[253] And so I was like, picture books count.

[254] Yeah, there's words in there too.

[255] There's tons of words on these pages.

[256] Oh, look all those words.

[257] There's so many words.

[258] You're a reader.

[259] You're definitely a reader.

[260] It counts.

[261] There's like paragraphs in here.

[262] And it's like a lovely coffee table size book so people will think you're smart.

[263] And they'll know you can read too when they come over.

[264] That's right.

[265] They're like, she is not just picture -oriented.

[266] She's got more to her than that.

[267] Yep.

[268] Good job, Malcolm Russell.

[269] Thank you for being a mudlarker.

[270] And then it says, Hidden Histories from the River Thames.

[271] Amazing.

[272] So cool.

[273] That's right.

[274] We were so close to mudlarking when we went to England.

[275] Oh, but then we found out you have to get up at 6 in the morning because of the tide or whatever.

[276] Not get up.

[277] Get there at 6 in the morning.

[278] Get there.

[279] Get up at 4 .30.

[280] Right.

[281] Which everyone knows in California time is like 2 in the morning.

[282] and we're not fucking, I'm making that happen.

[283] I kind of sat with the idea of if you're going to go do this, it's going to smell like your least favorite thing.

[284] Fish or even worse the entire time.

[285] Right.

[286] But imagine all these sacrifices that you're making walking along and then you just pick up an old button with some sort of wonderful symbol on it.

[287] And it ends up in a museum.

[288] It belongs in a museum.

[289] Where people come to see them.

[290] Oh, I read a really good book recently called God Shot by Chelsea Biker, B -I -E -K -E -R.

[291] And it's basically this little girl whose family kind of joins a religious cult.

[292] And it's not a true story, it's fiction.

[293] But it's written really well and really beautiful and moving.

[294] Awesome.

[295] And fucked up because it's a cult in a lot of ways.

[296] I highly recommend it.

[297] Love a cult story.

[298] Yeah.

[299] Okay.

[300] So a long ago I told you about the other ones.

[301] which is the hilarious story about a mother and daughter whose the husband dies and then they find out he has a secret family that are like the exact opposite of them.

[302] Yeah.

[303] And it has truly one of my favorite and the most hilarious people, Lauren Socha, that plays like the, you know, quote -unquote trashy sister.

[304] She's so funny.

[305] And then Chavon Finneran plays her mother, and that's the woman who was on Downton Abbey, is like the kind of evil Irish governess, remember her?

[306] She's such a good actress.

[307] So anyway, they have a season two.

[308] It's wonderfully satisfying if you need a good British comedy.

[309] I do.

[310] I always do.

[311] Two seasons.

[312] You're so good at picking British comedies, too.

[313] Did you watch the Victoria Secret documentary?

[314] I didn't.

[315] I heard it was really mind -blowing.

[316] It's really good.

[317] It totally focuses on Epstein and the, like, connection between the, you know, the evil overlords at Victoria's Secret and how creepy that whole company is and all that stuff.

[318] It's called, wait, it's called Angels in the Outfield.

[319] They must have.

[320] Angels and demons.

[321] Angels and demons.

[322] Thank you, Stephen.

[323] I told you.

[324] I told you it was called Angels and Demons.

[325] Isn't that a Dan Brown book?

[326] I don't know.

[327] Yes, yeah, it is.

[328] It is.

[329] You can't do that.

[330] This is the documentary.

[331] The documentary.

[332] It was good.

[333] It's like, you know, conspiracies and all this stuff, but it's also just like so dark and shows you like what we were, it's like a lot of early 2000s, like the way we were expected to look and that these evil people were the ones telling us that, that that's how a woman is supposed to look and how a woman is supposed, like this is ideal, fucked up.

[334] Jeffrey Epstein had a big hand in it.

[335] Yeah.

[336] It's very satisfying to have that be being revealed now because having gone through it and do.

[337] doing lots of comedy about how basically all of these magazines must be at least partially a pedophile run because what else these are these are the bodies of 10 year old boys yeah what is happening and then there's a part in the in the documentary where they talk about the brand pink dressing them like children it was supposed to be like for teens and this is how you're supposed to look and it's like now this is infantile like costume for children and it's also making people look at those children's butts all the time with the word pink across the back of the sweats, which has creeped me out.

[338] Like, this was also in the era when those Bratts dolls came out, which I know people are like, that means a lot to me and please don't attack that or whatever.

[339] It's like, that's fine.

[340] Does anyone say that?

[341] I don't, I immediately can picture what the, what the, what the furious.

[342] Brats changed my life.

[343] Brats, how dare you?

[344] But my only point is, up until that point, dolls were like for little girls to be little girls.

[345] And suddenly it was like, here's a doll.

[346] you need to be one of the pussycat dolls.

[347] Get on it.

[348] Get on it, seven -year -old girl, which is like, is this the best idea?

[349] Yeah, you've got to have big this and small that and the best of this and that.

[350] And only then are you cool?

[351] Stick to beanie babies, everyone.

[352] Jesus.

[353] Jesus, every, could you just leave everyone else alone, please?

[354] I know.

[355] Can you stop picking on people who snort when they laugh?

[356] It's none of your business.

[357] Sorry if we're so cute.

[358] Yeah, I'm sorry.

[359] And that threatens you.

[360] Oh, one more.

[361] Did you watch the show about the Stainers about Carrie Stainer and Stephen Stainer, who was kidnapped as a kid?

[362] There's a fucking documentary about it.

[363] And they interview the daughter of Stephen Stainer, who, of course, was the child.

[364] We've covered that.

[365] It was kidnapped.

[366] And then what happened to their family, which I won't spoil it.

[367] You and I know.

[368] Because we also talked about Carrie Stainer.

[369] Yeah, Carrie Stainer.

[370] I mean, it is that poor.

[371] family.

[372] It is horrifying to think of those surviving family members.

[373] It's so sad.

[374] Well, they're interviewed in it.

[375] Let me find out what it's called.

[376] You know, who's also in it is Parker Lewis can't lose because he played Steven Steiner.

[377] I know my first name is Stephen.

[378] Yeah.

[379] I was a kid when that made -for -TV movie came out.

[380] And we saw the commercial like every day when we were watching cartoons after school.

[381] Oh, my God.

[382] Horrifying.

[383] The documentary is called Captive Audience.

[384] It's really, more about the media and how they went after this story to the detriment of Stevens' mental health and his family.

[385] It's just like a really sad story.

[386] It's really, it's really good.

[387] Amazing.

[388] Yeah, that does sound good.

[389] And sorry, you said that was on Netflix?

[390] It's on Hulu.

[391] Great.

[392] Should we do a little network biz before we get into this actual podcast?

[393] Yeah, let's do some exactly right media highlights.

[394] So on Wicked Words this week, Kate Winkler Dawson's talking with reporter Nate Eaton about the Lori Vallow, Chad Daybill.

[395] case in eastern Idaho, it was made famous on the Dateline podcast, Mommy Doomsday.

[396] And that case is, I believe, still finishing up being either tried or the sentencing, but unbelievable story, horrifying story.

[397] Truly.

[398] Yeah.

[399] But on a lighter note, this week on Bananas, Kurt and Scotty welcome comedian and America's Got Talent semi -finalist Jackie Fabulous.

[400] And speaking of bananas, check out our bandana.

[401] Cool.

[402] Good job.

[403] I'm full of beans today.

[404] Our bandanas t -shirts, leashes and collars for your dogs and cats in the MFM store at my favorite murder .bizgov .com.

[405] And then also, just so you guys know, every week we record an extra hometown story each that's exclusive for members of the fan cult.

[406] It's called the mini -sode.

[407] So you can check those out, including all the ones from the past, however two years we've been doing it.

[408] If you join the fan cult at, again, my favorite murderer .bizgov .com.

[409] If you aren't already a member, please check that out.

[410] You get some cool merch when you join as well, and there's access to all kinds of fun videos and chat rooms and, no, no, and forums and stuff.

[411] It's a fun time.

[412] Chat rooms?

[413] Yeah.

[414] AOL.

[415] WWW.

[416] Get on there and catfish your friends in the chat rooms.

[417] I just showed my age.

[418] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[419] Absolutely.

[420] And when you say vintage, you mean when you physically drive to a store and actually purchase something with cash.

[421] Exactly.

[422] And if you're a small business owner, you might know Shopify is great for online sales.

[423] But did you know that they also power in -person sales?

[424] That's right.

[425] Shopify is the sound of selling everywhere.

[426] Online, in -store, on social media, and beyond.

[427] Give your point -of -sale system.

[428] a serious upgrade with Shopify.

[429] From accepting payments to managing inventory, they have everything you need to sell in person.

[430] So give your point of sale system a serious upgrade with Shopify.

[431] Their sleek, reliable POS hardware takes every major payment method and looks fabulous at the same time.

[432] With Shopify, we have a powerful partner for managing our sales, and if you're a business owner, you can too.

[433] Connect with customers in line and online.

[434] Do retail right with Shopify.

[435] Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify .com slash murder.

[436] Important note, that promo code is all lowercase.

[437] Go to Shopify .com slash murder to take your retail business to the next level today.

[438] That's Shopify .com slash murder.

[439] Goodbye.

[440] So we are, that's it, right?

[441] We're ready to start?

[442] I think so.

[443] That's quick.

[444] Let's do it.

[445] Let's do it.

[446] Let's do it.

[447] You're first, right?

[448] I think the reason I'm being pushy about starting, and I am first, yes, is because this is a classic true crime case.

[449] I haven't covered one of these in a while.

[450] And it makes me nervous because they're just so awful.

[451] And this one is especially terrible.

[452] Of course, we say that every time.

[453] Yes.

[454] They're all incredibly terrible.

[455] And actually I've had a couple people suggest this story to me. So let's get into it.

[456] This is the murder of Millie Dowler.

[457] So it's Thursday afternoon, March 21st, 2002, around 3 p .m. in Surrey County, England.

[458] Sally Deller's sitting in her office.

[459] She's a math teacher at the same school that her two teen daughters, 15 -year -old Gemma and 13 -year -old Amanda, who they call Millie, attend as students.

[460] So at the end of that school day, Millie stops by her mom's office to ask permission to go ahead and go home early instead of waiting to catch a ride with her mother and sister.

[461] It's very common for her to take public transportation.

[462] She's been doing it for years.

[463] She's done a lot before.

[464] Sally has no issue with this, and it's not an unusual request.

[465] So it's basically that Millie doesn't want to have to wait around for an hour and a half for her mom to finish up work.

[466] So she's just going to go home with her, basically her friends.

[467] So she leaves, she boards a train with several of her schoolmates, and they get off at Wilton on Thames, which is one stop before the station that's closest to Millie's house.

[468] So her and her friends get snacks at the station cafe.

[469] and then around quarter to four, Millie calls her dad and says she's on her way home and that she'll be there in a half an hour.

[470] She begins the short 15 -minute walk along Station Avenue in Walton, and it's basically just a straight shot home.

[471] She's made the trip 100 times before, but sometime in the moments just after she says goodbye to her friends in the broad daylight of an ordinary Thursday afternoon, Millie disappears without a trace.

[472] That broad daylight thing is so chilling.

[473] It's so scary.

[474] Tell me what year of this is again?

[475] Sorry.

[476] Okay.

[477] So as Millie's sister Gemma would later say at that very moment that Millie left the station on March 21st, the Dowler family was sent to hell.

[478] It's such a tragic story about what happens to this family in this case.

[479] And it's so extreme.

[480] You know, we've heard lots of bad ones.

[481] But this is one of the worst in terms of family.

[482] Yeah.

[483] So they're a very close -knit family.

[484] Bob, who's the dad, is, you know, a man in a house filled with what he calls sassy women.

[485] His wife, Sally, is an avid gardener who's also very into fitness.

[486] They both share a deep love of music and, of course, a deep love of their daughters.

[487] In 2002, Millie is just coming into her own as a young woman.

[488] She's 13, so she's very independent, sometimes even stubborn like any teen.

[489] She loves to play the saxophone.

[490] She loves to sing.

[491] and she actually, she's the kind of teenage girl that tries to teach her father the choreography to hit me baby one more time.

[492] She also often leaves notes for her sister Gemma telling her how much she loves being her sister.

[493] So Gemma and Millie are really close, even for teenage girls, which is really saying something.

[494] It's a hard time.

[495] Definitely.

[496] So every single day after school, the sisters come home, whatever time they come home, then they go hunker down in the living room, and they begin their ritual of watching the TV shows Home Away and Neighbors.

[497] So on this day, when Sally and Gemma finally get home around 4 .40, Gemma kicks open the passenger door, runs into the house calling for Millie, and Millie doesn't answer.

[498] So they just assume she's not home yet.

[499] So Gem and her mom just figure that Millie made other plans.

[500] She maybe went to a friend's house after school and told the father about it when she saw him.

[501] But when Sally asks Bob, where Millie made, Millie is, he says the last he heard from her was she was leaving the station to head home.

[502] So they realized that was a while ago and she should have been home by now.

[503] Yeah.

[504] At first, Bob is annoyed.

[505] He's assuming that she just didn't communicate with him.

[506] And now he can't get her on the phone.

[507] So he gets into the car and he drives that straight route, you know, that she would have been walking.

[508] But he doesn't see her.

[509] He decides then to stop at one of Millie's friend's houses nearby, but they haven't seen her either.

[510] And of course, Bob's frustration quickly fades to concern.

[511] It's just not sitting right.

[512] So he drives back to the house and Millie still isn't there.

[513] So they start calling hospitals to see if something happened to her.

[514] She was in an accident or something.

[515] But no one named Amanda Dowler has been checked in.

[516] So now the Dowlers are incredibly worried and Bob calls the Surrey police.

[517] So an officer arrives at their home within minutes and asks a series of The routine questions, basically the same ones that are meant to determine if their teenage daughters are runaway, asking if she's ever talked to strangers online, if she has had any arguments with her parents or anyone lately, or if there's been anything stressing her out.

[518] Sally Bob and Jenma are huddled in the same room as the officer trying to keep their anxiety from turning into panic, and they keep answering no to his questions.

[519] They just keep trying to say, no, no, we know her.

[520] We're close.

[521] This isn't like her.

[522] She always comes home after school or she calls if there's a change in plans.

[523] She does not talk to strangers on the internet.

[524] And they say they're really worried something terrible has happened, but the officer assures them she's probably hiding somewhere and she'll probably return before the morning.

[525] And if the dollars are such a happy family, she's bound to come home.

[526] So he says he'll check back in tomorrow.

[527] The dollars are not having it like the second he leaves.

[528] They get to work.

[529] They basically start trying to piece together, Millie's walk home.

[530] Everyone's making calls to everyone they can think of that might be able to help them.

[531] I just hate the idea that because someone is a runaway, they don't deserve, they're not in danger and don't deserve to be found still.

[532] Right.

[533] You know what I mean?

[534] It's like, not just like they ran away.

[535] They don't want to come home.

[536] It's their, it's, they'll come home when they come home.

[537] It's like they ran away, but they're 13, even if they, you know, if they did run away, they're 13 years old and should not be.

[538] And there's two parents.

[539] and a sister that are sitting there going, no, this isn't, she's not, she doesn't run away.

[540] So if something did happen, we need you to find her now.

[541] Right.

[542] And they're basically saying, we don't have to.

[543] We don't know her and we don't know you, but we know best.

[544] And we don't have to work on this right now.

[545] It's crazy.

[546] It is.

[547] And hopefully it's changing because that whole idea doesn't make sense when we've been told time and again, the first 48 hours of a missing person's cases are the most important.

[548] And yet the first oftentimes between three and eight hours are delayed by people saying you have to hit the qualifying time.

[549] Yeah.

[550] And if you are, like I was a runaway before when I was 13 and I was not in a safe place.

[551] You know what I mean?

[552] Like if you're running away at 13, it's probably not with people who are okay to be around.

[553] You know, it's like you're not safe even if you're actual runaway.

[554] Right.

[555] And how about like if they are 13 and running away?

[556] they might shoplift or do so, like, how do you get the cop logic going?

[557] Why does it just blank out in this one spot where it's like, get the desperate child off the street?

[558] Child, child, yeah.

[559] So Gemma learns that a girl in her class named Kat, so Gemma's the older sister, she learns a girl in her class saw Millie walking home that afternoon, so she calls her.

[560] And Cat picks up, tells Gemma, that she saw Millie pass her bus stop just after 4 p .m. They made eye contact, but then Kat says after she got on the bus, she took a seat, she looked back outside expecting to see Millie, and Millie was gone.

[561] It was as if she just evaporated into thin air.

[562] So by the next day, Friday, the family organized an assembly at Millie and Gemma's school to get the word out, which is also Sally's school.

[563] That's good.

[564] So the Dellers have printed tons of missing posters with Millie's face on them, a neighbor's friends, even strangers stop by to grab a stack or two to put them around town.

[565] There's people who are traveling for the upcoming Easter holiday, so they take them to post outside of Surrey County with the hopes of just getting the net spread as wide as possible.

[566] The Surrey Police Department's efforts certainly pale in comparison to the Dallor family.

[567] A whole 36 hours passed before a police finally released CCTV footage that shows Millie walking through the train station.

[568] Oh, wow.

[569] The hope in releasing this is that there will be a tip coming in from the public, but the problem is that they've released this footage, but they have not set up a tip line.

[570] So you just have to call the regular.

[571] Oh, no. Yeah.

[572] No dedicated line for people that have information.

[573] Yeah.

[574] It'll be three days after a police disappearance before the police distribute a missing poster of their own and one that includes the official tip line information.

[575] Wow.

[576] By that point, the Dowler's homemade poster has been distributed basically across England, and it has their home phone number on it because they basically had no choice.

[577] Yeah, understood.

[578] That's fucked up.

[579] So there's thousands of copies out there, and basically the Dowler's phone rings constantly.

[580] March 24th, Millie's been missing for four days.

[581] And by this point, the Dowler's are beyond worried, of course, each second that passes without word from their daughter and their sister or any real leads that might point them in her direction is excruciating.

[582] So they're just hoping for any news that might point them in any direction toward Millie.

[583] Yeah, yeah.

[584] Sally, the mother, is trying her daughter's cell phone constantly.

[585] And at this point, it's such a routine practice that basically her mailbox becomes full.

[586] So that happens pretty quickly.

[587] And then she just kind of calls, and here's the voice again that's saying the mailbox is full, but she just keeps trying, just in case, you know, her daughter might pick up at some point.

[588] But then this one day, she calls, and instead of that automated voice saying the mailbox is full, the phone rings and rings.

[589] But Millie doesn't pick up, but instead of the automated message, Sally can leave a new message.

[590] So suddenly the mailbox is not full.

[591] So Sally can't believe it.

[592] Like, this is finally a development.

[593] Something has changed.

[594] She's filled with hope.

[595] She calls friends and family telling them Millie might be checking her voicemail.

[596] But then hours pass, then days, nothing ever comes of it.

[597] It's basically another lead that dries up and leaves them kind of more hopeless than before.

[598] So they do stay vigilant.

[599] It's March 27th now.

[600] Seven days have passed since Millie was last seen.

[601] And it's Sally's birthday.

[602] And that night, the BBC, runs a story on Millie's disappearance.

[603] and that report instantly catapults the investigation and the Deller family into the public eye where they will end up staying for years.

[604] Oh, my God.

[605] They talk about this child being missing, and it's like, it's over three weeks after she goes missing.

[606] And that's when it finally makes the news.

[607] Oh, that's awful.

[608] So despite the Deller's hard work, all the press attention, the pleas for tips from the public, There's few leads, and then on September 18th, 2002, 183 days after Millie was last seen, the phone rings, and it's the Surrey Police, and they're calling to give the dollars an update.

[609] Investigators tell the family that remains have been found by mushroom pickers about 20 miles from where Millie was last seen, and there's no positive ID yet.

[610] So, and I would like to submit that maybe this needs to change as well.

[611] how about you call when you have the positive ID instead of saying we found a body now wait yes now wait it's torture I mean it's like it's insane torture for these poor people where it's like if they don't know before just wait until you know for a fact there's no benefit right and it's also like then you're in that moment too of like praying it isn't but you know it's someone's kid praying it is or it isn't and then the guilt that comes with that and horrible It's just a section of time that doesn't need to happen.

[612] Like, it doesn't benefit anyone.

[613] So the Dowler's watched the evening news where they cover the story and the fact that this discovery could be linked to Millie.

[614] That might be the one reason that they did it is because the police knew it was going to come out on the news.

[615] That's true.

[616] So they wanted to warn them.

[617] There is that, you know?

[618] Point, counterpoint, I just proved myself wrong.

[619] But I just think, like, if you don't have to, and if there's some way to control that news, Which there should be, yeah.

[620] So the family thinks maybe it's not her.

[621] It could, of course, be someone else.

[622] And until the body's identified, there's hope that she's still alive.

[623] But that hope doesn't last long.

[624] The next day the dowlers get the news that investigators have determined through dental records that those remains do, in fact, belong to Millie Dowler.

[625] So the Dowler's beloved, charming daughter and baby sister will not come home.

[626] And they find this out on Bob's birthday.

[627] Oh, God.

[628] Yeah.

[629] So, of course, the discovery of Millie's Remains instantly turns this case into a murder investigation.

[630] And at the same time as this is happening, there have already been a series of gruesome attacks in Surrey and Southwest London, and they are also on the investigator's radar.

[631] So in one of them, the victim's 19 -year -old Marsha McDonnell, and in the other, the victim is a 22 -year -old student from France named Amelie de la Grange.

[632] So both of these young women have been bludgeoned to death with hammers and they're about the cases The attacks happened about a year and a half apart McDonald in February of 2003 and De LaGrange in August of 2004 And they were both attacked While walking home from the bus stop at night So in between that In May of 2004 Just a few months before De LaGrange's murder 18 -year -old Kate Cheedy Also suffered a horrific attack But the difference is Kate Sheedy survives.

[633] So she's walking home yet again from a bus stop at night when she notices that a man in a white van is watching her.

[634] So, of course, Kate's immediately creeped out and she crosses the street to basically get away from that van.

[635] And as she does, the driver of the van whips around a U -turn really fast, hits her with the car, backs up and rolls back over her.

[636] So she gets run over twice by this van and then it speeds away.

[637] And like with what you could call superhuman strength and courage, Kate is somehow able to call both her mother and emergency services.

[638] And she ends up saving herself and surviving this horrific attack.

[639] Fuck.

[640] So it then comes out that just one day before Millie Dollar's disappearance, an 11 -year -old girl named Rachel Cowell, is walking home from school about two miles from the Walton -on -Tem station.

[641] And like Millie, she was wearing her school uniform.

[642] She's, like, on the way home from school.

[643] And a man driving a red car offers her a ride.

[644] But then right as she begins, like, interacting with this man, a cop car drives by and this car speeds away.

[645] Oh, my God.

[646] So the police haven't been able to conclusively connect this string of attacks, but the media is drawing parallels.

[647] So they're just, it's all coming out, basically.

[648] So of course the dowlers are following these cases on the news, watching them unfold in real time, as they're waiting to hear the Surrey police tell them anything about Millie's case.

[649] And the similarities between what happened to those victims and what they know about Millie are not lost on them, down to the fact that all of these victims have been blonde and all of the attacks have been taken place within an hour of that same train station.

[650] where Millie went missing.

[651] Wow.

[652] Then one day, Sally's out on a run, and she sees the metropolitan police divers searching beneath a bridge, and it turns out that they're searching for the discarded belongings of French student, Amelie Delagrange.

[653] So a metropolitan police detective named Colin Sutton has been put in charge of Amelie's case, and there isn't much evidence to start with.

[654] So he basically has his team look through any CCTV footage that they can find for possible leads.

[655] So it's needle in a haystack attempt to find something really monotonous and tedious work.

[656] But after searching 2 ,000 hours worth of footage, they finally see something in a video captured by a bus's external camera.

[657] So they had to go through any kind of camera that they could find.

[658] Amazing.

[659] They spot a white van, parked near the area where Amelie's body was found.

[660] So they instantly clocked that van.

[661] they know what happened to Kate Sheedy and how she was attacked by a man driving a white van.

[662] So Detective Sutton puts all his energy into tracking down the driver of that white van.

[663] And he and his team work obsessively for weeks, sometimes clocking out only to then go drive the streets around the area where Amelie was last seen.

[664] And they're finally able to narrow down the van by its make model in the years it could have been manufactured.

[665] So they make a plea to the public for any information.

[666] And then a critical tip comes through.

[667] A woman calls in saying that her violent ex -boyfriend used to drive the exact same van.

[668] And she believes that he is capable of murder.

[669] And she gives them his name.

[670] And his name is Levi Bellfield.

[671] So when they enter Levi's house to arrest him, he tries to make a break for it by jumping onto a dresser, fully naked, going, climbing into his own attic, rolling himself up into insulation.

[672] What the fuck?

[673] Uh -huh.

[674] they immediately take him into custody, and on February 25th, 2008, after a careful investigation in a lengthy trial, Levi Belfield is convicted for the murders of Marcia McDonnell and Amelie Delagrange, and for the attempted murder of Kate Sheedy.

[675] And he receives a life sentence, but investigators aren't finished because even though Levi Belfield never talks or gives the investigators really much to work with the doll, they believe that he's responsible for over -stretched, 20 other unsolved crimes against women, including the murder of Millie Dowler.

[676] Wow.

[677] So basically two years passed before the Dowler family is told that prosecutors have built their next case against Levi Bellfield.

[678] So in March of 2010, he's charged with Millie's murder and the attempted abduction of 11 -year -old Rachel Cowles, which was the day before Millie went missing.

[679] There are a few key pieces of evidence, though they never track it down, investigators managed to link Belfield to a red car spotted on CCTV from the area where Millie went missing.

[680] And that car matches Rachel Cowell's description of the red car driven by the man who tried to abduct her.

[681] Also, Surrey Police get a huge tip from Detective Colin Sutton.

[682] While diving into Belfield's record, Sutton sees that around the same time as Millie's disappearance, Bellfield rented an apartment just steps from the Walton on Thames Station.

[683] The Dowler family is in disbelief when they learned that Surrey officers had knocked on that apartment door 10 different times in the years since Molly vanished but no one ever answered and no one ever followed up.

[684] So it's logical to assume that not coming to the door 10 times when the cops are there would indicate that maybe the occupant wants to avoid talking to the police for some reason.

[685] They could have contacted the property landlord to get the name of who lives there.

[686] They could have looked up if he had a record to see if he had a history of violence against women or any other obvious reason why he's not answering the door, but nothing was done.

[687] So on May 4th, 2011, this new trial begins, and it is the understatement of the century to call Bellfield's defense lawyers aggressive.

[688] They treat the Deller family with extreme callousness, particularly during excruciating cross -examinations of Sally, Bob, and Gemma.

[689] The defense reads straight from Millie's diary, exposing the young woman's innermost thoughts in an attempt to use her words to paint Sally and Bob as neglectful and uncaring parents.

[690] Like, that has anything to do with this guy murdering her at all.

[691] Totally.

[692] I don't understand what the angle is, is that he's innocent?

[693] No, it's that it's her own fault, it's their fault.

[694] Yeah, I don't know.

[695] baffling, baffling and horrifying.

[696] Horrifying.

[697] They try to paint the picture of Millie as a troubled young girl stuck in an unhappy home.

[698] So here's just a couple things that the defense did to support this bizarre and really horrifying strategy.

[699] Bellfield's lawyers tell Sally that her daughter may have run away because Millie believed that Sally loved Gemma more than her.

[700] The defense's questioning causes Bob.

[701] to actually break down on the stand after he is forced to talk about how he was an early suspect in his daughter's disappearance, which is basically you have to clear the family.

[702] That's pretty standard.

[703] Right.

[704] And then Gemma will later go on to say that her cross -examination was, quote, worse than when she was told her sister's remains were found.

[705] That's how bad it was.

[706] Oh.

[707] Just re -traumatizing these poor fucking people who are victims.

[708] That's insane.

[709] So at the end of the trial, jury deliberates and returns to the courtroom, Levi Belfield, not just a murderer, but a coward, skips his sentencing and is returned to prison.

[710] And when the verdicts read out, Sally and Gemma Dowler collapse guilty on both counts.

[711] And Levi Belfield will receive an additional life sentence, which is a first in British criminal justice history.

[712] So they just tagged one on of like, you're a horrible serial killer and we know it.

[713] Yeah.

[714] Yeah.

[715] So after the trial, stands on the courthouse steps and gives a statement saying that the trial had been, quote, a truly mentally scarring experience on an unimaginable scale, and that, quote, my family has had to pay too high a price for this conviction.

[716] In July of 2011, the Guardian newspaper publishes a bombshell report.

[717] It alleges that the newspaper, the News of the World, which is a tabloid, that the journalists from that tabloid illegally hacked into Millie's phone just days after she vanished in 2002 and even deleted messages once her inbox filled up to make space for new ones.

[718] Oh my God.

[719] Pause for a second.

[720] So they were like, they hacked it horrible.

[721] They listened all the voicemails, horrible.

[722] They made room for new ones to see what they could find.

[723] Yeah.

[724] Like baiting people.

[725] Yeah.

[726] And getting more for their stories.

[727] Oh, my God.

[728] And just as a, you know, a sidebar, I believe that Pierce Morgan had something to do.

[729] He was a journalist there at the time.

[730] And this is a newspaper owned by Rupert Murdoch.

[731] Right.

[732] So it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

[733] It's just surprising how low they can go.

[734] Well, what's really surprising is, so the Dowlers, of course, remember this.

[735] And they remember, you know, Sally being thinking it was like it was meaningful and it was positive when in fact the news of the world journalists had been recording every word of their increasingly panicked messages to their daughter.

[736] So they were trying to make a story out of it from her phone, from the inside and from and listening to how those messages were.

[737] I mean, it's so sickening.

[738] Well, what's great about this is the British public is absolutely disgusted.

[739] It's, It's not only, of course, illegal, but it runs the risk of destroying invaluable evidence in the early hours of a missing person's investigation.

[740] News of the World journalists actually shared some of that information that they got from Millie's phone with the Surrey police.

[741] And so the public is not only furious at the newspaper, but with the Surrey police who never questioned or investigated how these journalists were able to acquire information from this missing girl's phone.

[742] So these revelations that were reported in The Guardian reverberate around the world and usher in a conversation about British media ethics or lack thereof.

[743] People know that it isn't just the news of the world.

[744] It's an extreme version of the cold, parasitic, and ruthless British tabloid culture at large.

[745] But even then, even the fact that this is something that a lot of people in England and kind of they're known for it and people there are used to it, This hacking of Millie Dollar's phone is a step too far.

[746] The British public is furious, and News of the World Owner, Rupert Murdoch realizes that the reputation of the 168 -year -old newspaper can never recover from the scandal.

[747] So he fires most of the 200 employees and shuts the newspaper down.

[748] Fuck.

[749] Just based on this one, like, they've probably been doing so many horrible things for so long, and this one was like the last straw.

[750] It's just beyond the pale.

[751] It's beyond.

[752] I mean, you have to think about, like, well, what if the dad had left messages and those were deleted?

[753] I mean, then the police would have thought he was lying about it.

[754] You know what I mean?

[755] Like, it's just, yeah, you're totally tampering.

[756] But the police knew they were on the inside.

[757] The whole thing is so dirty and ugly that it's almost like the average person in England was just like, no. Like, just no. It's like making a tragedy just craven.

[758] So, it's so disgusting.

[759] So, wow.

[760] In May 2015, Bob and Sally get a call from Surrey Police Investigators, and they're told that Levi Belfield has finally confessed to Millie's murder, which is not a huge shock to them.

[761] They have accepted that Belfield murdered their daughter, but it turns out what the police aren't sharing, they basically say Levi's confessed, but that the details of the murder are too sensitive to share, giving them the details could jeopardize other investigations.

[762] And of course, the dowlers are furious about this and they don't accept it.

[763] So if Levi Belfields can vest, then they need to know the full extent of what he said because for 10 years they've been kept in the dark by the Surrey police and they want to know anything and everything about what happened to their daughter.

[764] And as they're used to doing at this point, they push and push over the next several days and they're just persistent, they make calls, they schedule meetings at the police station, And at one point, Sally even takes out a picture of Millie and lays it on the table, forcing an officer to look at her daughter.

[765] She will not take no for an answer.

[766] She demands more information.

[767] And the Surrey police finally are forced to share details with the dowlers.

[768] And they're horrific, of course.

[769] The dowels are sickened with a new wave of grief and horror for Millie.

[770] But they don't want to sit with this information because each day that goes by, they know that this story could leak to the press.

[771] And that then it would be this time bomb that's waiting to go off that the press could interpret and say whatever they want or lie or, you know, they've clearly had this horrible experience with them so they don't trust that this is going to get treated in any decent way.

[772] Yeah.

[773] And they want to control this narrative of what, of their daughter and the story of what happened to her and make sure that it's not just salacious and disgusting.

[774] Yeah.

[775] So they also were afraid because Gemma now.

[776] it's coming up on Gemma's wedding day.

[777] And so they're afraid it's going to come out the day of their daughter's wedding.

[778] They're like, can we please have a moment of peace?

[779] So they're just done allowing other people, the Surrey police or their daughter's killer or his horrible defense lawyers control the narrative anymore.

[780] So the same month, May of 2015, the dollars write a press release outlining the details of Levi -Belfield's confessions.

[781] So they just want to put it out there.

[782] they feel like that might be able to allow them to start healing.

[783] And so as is routine, they take it to the police station for review and right as the dollars are ready to tell the world about Millie's final hours, the Surrey Police drop another bombshell that when Belfield confessed to investigators, he named an accomplice.

[784] And so they basically, they've known this all along.

[785] No. They claim that potential legal issues kept them withholding the information from the family.

[786] they tell the dollars that their press release will have to wait and that the family will have to stay quiet about this confession until the investigation into the accomplice is completed.

[787] So it's their responsibility now, even though they're the victims.

[788] Like, what a bunch of shit to be thrown at them?

[789] Mm -hmm.

[790] The family actually says later that they felt like they were being, quote, drip -fed poison by the Surrey police.

[791] Their waits agonizing, days passed.

[792] There's no updates, weeks, then months passed.

[793] Still nothing is said about the accomplice or the case.

[794] And meanwhile, the dowels are praying that the press doesn't get wind of this confession and take it and run with it.

[795] Now it's October 2015 and five months have passed, and there's no word.

[796] The dowlers have completely lost faith in the Syria police, so they do what they've had to do again and again.

[797] They fight.

[798] They request a meeting with the then -home secretary, Teresa May, who will later become prime minister and they tell her about their concerns with this police work.

[799] They say they can't stand staying quiet about this confession any longer and Secretary May says she'll see how she can help.

[800] And this actually works.

[801] So in January of 2016, not long after Gemma's birthday, Surrey police arrest the alleged accomplice.

[802] Finally, Jesus.

[803] Now, it's not great though because they learned then a couple days later that Surrey police have released this alleged accomplice after just 10 hours.

[804] They've been investigating him for half a year and he's out in 10 hours.

[805] What?

[806] And the police claimed that they didn't have enough evidence to press charges and that now Levi Bellfield is recanting his confession.

[807] So in February of 2016, the Dowlers are finally able to release the details of Millie's murder to the public.

[808] They issue their statements separately from the Surrey police, and unlike the Surrey police, they spare no details.

[809] They want the public to know what happened to Millie and how brutal her death was, and they want all the information out there as horrible as it is, and it is truly horrible.

[810] Levi Belfield abducted Millie Dowler from Walton on Thames in broad daylight.

[811] He first assaulted her at his apartment, the same one that the Surrey police knocked on the door of ten times, before putting her in his red car.

[812] and driving her to another location, Millie was held captive for 14 hours, repeatedly raped and tortured before being strangled to death, and she was 13 years old.

[813] Oh, my God.

[814] So for the dowels, having the information out there is a weight off their shoulders, but they're naturally worried how the press will now cover Millie's death.

[815] It's understandable for them to expect traumatizing headlines for the press not to handle the information with respect or sensitivity.

[816] They're just expecting the worst.

[817] Yeah.

[818] But as their statement, is picked up, they're relieved because the coverage is empathetic, it's kind, it's respectful.

[819] Newspapers print headlines that emphasize Levi Belfield's cowardice and the incompetence of the Surrey police investigation.

[820] Wow.

[821] The Dowlers aren't the only ones furious and bereaved over the loss of this innocent young girl.

[822] All of Britain is too.

[823] The decades that follow the loss of Millie Dowler stand as a testament to the strength of her family.

[824] The dollars were put through absolute hell.

[825] They were kept in the dark by police.

[826] Their privacy was invaded by the press.

[827] They were publicly tormented by the defense team of a man who murdered their daughter and sister, and they still managed to stay together and push for justice.

[828] None of this is lost on them.

[829] They've explicitly said how they had to, quote, fight all the way in the darkest moments of their lives.

[830] In June 2017, Gemma published her book, My Sister Millie.

[831] It's the culmination of her family's experience since Millie went missing in March of 2002.

[832] She writes in it that, quote, if Millie hadn't been such a great little person, it would have been easier to let her pass, but she was exactly that great.

[833] And as the emblem she became, Millie has an immense power.

[834] I use that power in the hope that telling our story will help stop other families suffering what happened to us.

[835] And that is the horrible story of the murder and subsequent media failure.

[836] of Millie Dowler.

[837] Wow.

[838] What a twisty -turny story.

[839] That's so horrible.

[840] You were not kidding.

[841] My sources for today's story are My Sister Millie by Gemma Dowler.

[842] The Guardian article, Missing Millie Dowler's voicemail was hacked by News of the World by Nick Davies and Amelia Hill.

[843] Those two reporters broke that story.

[844] Like it would have never been, no one would have found out about it if it wasn't for Nick Davies and Amelia Hill.

[845] Manhunt.

[846] the real -life story behind the ITV drama by Lauren Turner for BBC News.

[847] I've seen Manhunt.

[848] It's a really good, it's basically a true crime docudrama.

[849] The rest of the sources for today's story are going to be listed in the show notes if you want to go look at those.

[850] Great job telling a really sensitive story.

[851] Excellent job.

[852] Thank you.

[853] Well, speaking of cults, I've got a culty story to tell you today.

[854] I'm going to tell you today the story of Ervil LeBaron, aka the Mormon Manson.

[855] Oh.

[856] Do you know this one?

[857] I do not.

[858] I literally recently found this out like a couple weeks ago and had never heard of it and couldn't believe it.

[859] It's wild.

[860] So the sources used in today's episodes are a BBC article written by Brian Wheeler, a Time magazine article, a Los Angeles Times article by Gary Abrams, Washington Post article by Miriam Berger, and a Daily Beast article by Lewis Beal, et cetera, et cetera, show notes.

[861] Okay, first a little history lesson.

[862] And if we were doing this as a live show in Utah, I would stand up as you like to do to present a history lesson.

[863] You'd get really into it?

[864] I'd like have a, what's it called board, whiteboard.

[865] A whiteboard, a pointer.

[866] Yeah, all the things.

[867] Maybe like a microfish with an overhead projector.

[868] Oh my God, we need that.

[869] New office.

[870] Let's get one of those in there.

[871] So the story begins with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints.

[872] What we know is the modern LDS Church evolves from the community's relocation to Utah in 1846 under the leadership of Brigham Young.

[873] At the time, Utah is a territory which is part of Mexico as the U .S.-Mexico border isn't heavily controlled.

[874] Utah, therefore, doesn't have much oversight from the U .S. government, which is why Brigham Young moves everyone out there so they can operate, have all their wives.

[875] Exactly.

[876] very young wives.

[877] In 1848, Mexico cedes Utah to the United States.

[878] However, in order for Utah to be granted statehood, the LDS has to agree to ban its practice of polygamy, aka multiple wives.

[879] So the church refuses the U .S. Army can come in to force the LDS out of the country and enforce U .S. law.

[880] So they don't end polygamy because it's a terrible practice that, you know, turns women into slaves.

[881] No, no, no. It's for practical reasons, like becoming a state.

[882] Politics.

[883] Politics.

[884] Yeah.

[885] Always.

[886] So in 1890, the church officially bans polygamy and Utah becomes a state in 1896, where the practice of polygamy becomes a felony.

[887] So it is still common among members for another 15 years or so, but slowly they start to crack down and it's faded out.

[888] And they also start to excommunicate anyone who continues to practice polygamy.

[889] So some of those excommunicated members move south to Mexico to avoid the U .S. law enforcement.

[890] One of these people is 38 -year -old Alma Dayer -Liberin.

[891] And so, of course, the people who are excommunicated because they want to keep doing polygamy are the extremists and the people who are most likely to follow the quote letter of the law.

[892] And in their case, they think that that is polygamy.

[893] You're not a Mormon in their mind unless you practice polygamy.

[894] Well, and I'm sure this is because of some doing a show in Utah, and we've talked about stuff like this before.

[895] But it was one of the original, like, as I believe Brigham Young, or maybe Joseph Smith in the early days, as they were developing, it was like God came to me and said, I get to have more wives, remember?

[896] So it was like, it was this thing where it was a, it was like canon in the religion, but then it was like one guy's idea of like, you know what I need?

[897] Let's add this.

[898] More our wives.

[899] It feels like lately especially a lot of the Mormon content that we have been given is the horrible documentary on Netflix right now Keep Sweet.

[900] Oh, I haven't mentioned in this.

[901] Yes, Keep Sweet and Obey is an incredible documentary about a family that's similar.

[902] But I was just going to make the point that there are also some really lovely Mormon families that are like, yeah, that's the weird old version and that's not what we're like.

[903] This isn't Mormonism, you know.

[904] This is using the name Mormonism or the title or the religion Mormonism to justify some really horrific actions.

[905] So by no means are we saying that this is indicative of Mormon people as a whole.

[906] Great.

[907] I just want to throw that out.

[908] No, I'm glad you did.

[909] It just seems like not just here, but everywhere.

[910] It's like, yeah.

[911] Well, it's the same thing where it's like I don't identify, I don't identify at all with Hasidic Jews.

[912] and they don't with me either.

[913] It's a completely different religion than the one I was raised in even though it's still Judaism.

[914] It's not the same thing at all.

[915] So I completely...

[916] I'm glad you said that.

[917] Yeah.

[918] This is literally about this really fucked up family more than anything.

[919] Well, no matter what religion you are, if you're heading down to Mexico to escape the heat or the, you know, too much attention, too much interference, that's the beginning of every, like, what's happening cult story.

[920] Yeah, first thing.

[921] Exactly.

[922] Let's go somewhere where the government can't put their hands on our wives or whatever the fuck.

[923] I don't know why they're from the south.

[924] But da -da -da -da -da.

[925] Move to Mexico.

[926] One of these people is 38 -year -old Alma Dair -L -A -R -B -A -R -Baron.

[927] So the family is the LeBaron family.

[928] L -E -B -A -R -O -N.

[929] Great car.

[930] Huh?

[931] Great car.

[932] Great car, not related.

[933] In 1924, he moves to Gagliana, Mexico, with his two wives, eight children, and his 10 siblings.

[934] and he establishes a farm called Colonia La Barron, where his family lives off of the land.

[935] So he dies at 64 years old in February 1951, and the leadership of the community goes to his third oldest son, 27 -year -old Joel, which of course upsets the rest to the older brothers, because, like, clearly Joel is probably more responsible and less fanatical.

[936] I don't know.

[937] They're like, why not me, Dad?

[938] Again, why are we doing that accent?

[939] It's not relevant here.

[940] Joel appoints his younger brother, 26 -year -old, Ervil, Moral, Lebaran.

[941] So Ervil, which just looks like evil.

[942] So it's too much of a coincidence.

[943] Similarity.

[944] Yeah.

[945] So he becomes the second in command.

[946] So Joel's in the front of the fucking command, and behind him is Ervil.

[947] And Ervil's 6 '8.

[948] He is a towering and imposing menacing presence.

[949] Basketball player.

[950] who was like super duper fundamentalists and all the fun things that go along with it.

[951] In 1955, Joel incorporates the community as the Church of the Fulness of Times based out of Salt Lake City in Utah.

[952] The community grows around 500 people consisting of 30 families.

[953] They live between Utah and an 8500 -acre Mexican beachfront community which they founded in 1963 called Los Molinos in Baja.

[954] California.

[955] Well, that sounds gorgeous.

[956] Doesn't it?

[957] And like they're very lucky.

[958] Yeah.

[959] Or have good taste.

[960] I mean like...

[961] 8 ,500 acres.

[962] Try getting that these days anywhere.

[963] On the beach?

[964] No way.

[965] Are you crazy?

[966] But Erville is really enthusiastic, let's say, about recruiting local converts there in Baja, California.

[967] And he also embezzles church funds, meaning there's no money to support the community.

[968] He drives a gold impala.

[969] Ervil LeBaron drives a gold impala.

[970] This is a very...

[971] This is a rhyme, what's it called?

[972] A nursery rhyme.

[973] And he tries to raise money the smart way, which is gambling it in Vegas, as you do.

[974] For real?

[975] I'm not.

[976] He takes his fucking gold Impala tries to raise capital by gambling in Vegas.

[977] Shockingly, it doesn't work.

[978] This reminds me of when I was so broke at one point, you know, say several years after I moved to Lowe, Los Angeles, that I heard someone that we knew, a friend of ours, their dad was a professional gambler.

[979] And I was like, maybe if I give him my last $300, he can win enough money to make rent.

[980] Please, sir.

[981] That's the kind of planning I was willing to do.

[982] I understand that.

[983] I tried to sell clothing and cried in my car after they told me what my clothing was actually worth when I was like, no, no, this is vintage.

[984] Ma 'am.

[985] Nothing worse.

[986] But ma 'am.

[987] And also, like, when the girl at Buffalo Exchange is she said.

[988] slowly folding up your stuff and putting it in the no pile.

[989] Oh, it's like reading your diary.

[990] It's like someone reading your diary in front of you.

[991] She might as well just be whispering your gross the whole time.

[992] Yeah.

[993] It's the worst feeling.

[994] And then like the tiny pile that they say yes to and they're like, you can get $16 in store credit or $11 cash.

[995] Oh, clearly that happened.

[996] And I'm like, but I have a serious drug addiction.

[997] Please help me. But I spent all my money at bars and clubs on Long Island Ice T's, please.

[998] I do whatever I'm.

[999] want, you're supposed to come in and save me now.

[1000] What's happening?

[1001] Because my friend and I share a Long Island ice tea every weekend.

[1002] Please.

[1003] That's true.

[1004] Those things are expensive.

[1005] They are like so much.

[1006] So he keeps losing the family's money.

[1007] And in the meantime, his family is rapidly expanding as a shock to no one.

[1008] He has 13 wives, including underage girls who are forced to marry him.

[1009] He goes on to father more than 50 children total.

[1010] Even more gross.

[1011] Also, how, if you want a jackpot in Vegas, you still couldn't afford 50 kids.

[1012] Absolutely.

[1013] Like, you just opened your own public school.

[1014] What are you talking about?

[1015] Yeah.

[1016] Yeah.

[1017] That's a really good point.

[1018] Just attacking his logic.

[1019] Well, yeah, it's good to do that.

[1020] So in 1970, Joel, the older brother leader, hasn't had enough of Ervils in subordination and scheming and he excommunicates his brother, Erval.

[1021] So a few, other families decide to break away to follow Ervil.

[1022] And he starts a church in San Diego called the Church of the Lamb of God.

[1023] Or the Church of the Lamb of God, if we're doing the Southern.

[1024] If we're going to insist on giving them Southern access.

[1025] Insulting Southern people?

[1026] Yes.

[1027] Yes.

[1028] Let's just get them all on.

[1029] Mormon, Southern people.

[1030] We're going to insult you.

[1031] Can I just say this one thing that I saw on TikTok?

[1032] Always.

[1033] Do you know that Rednecks and the the assumption that rednecks are Republican or conservative or whatever, I just watched a TikTok where this guy explained that that is actually from minors.

[1034] And it's because they used to wear red kerchiefs around their neck.

[1035] And minors are the people who started the labor movement in America.

[1036] Technically and historically, rednecks are progressives.

[1037] Just want to put that out there.

[1038] Wow.

[1039] Socialists.

[1040] I love it.

[1041] I'm going to learn things through TikTok.

[1042] He believes in the antiquated former LDS doctrine, not only polygamy he's into, but he's also into something called Blood Atonement, which sounds like a Cohen Brothers movie.

[1043] Doesn't it?

[1044] This basically means that anyone committing a sin must die to be spiritually cleansed and secure their place in the afterlife, basically being like, let me do you a favor.

[1045] You're on the wrong track.

[1046] If I kill you, congratulations, and you're welcome.

[1047] You get to go to heaven.

[1048] I mean, they really should track down where who started blood atonement?

[1049] Yeah.

[1050] Like the OG serial killer of history.

[1051] Well, there's so much of this and these stories, including the one that we just mentioned, the Stay Sweet documentary, that it's really just the people in charge constantly saying, I got to talk to God.

[1052] I talk to God.

[1053] Like when someone says they talk to God, it's never going to be like, and they said to give all our money away.

[1054] Or they said, be kind to your wife and children.

[1055] It's never going to be that.

[1056] it's going to be these people who are in control who say stuff like that because it's doesn't it's not true it doesn't work and that culty thing of i i mean we've told so many cold stories but it's like that idea of a group of people trusting the person saying talk to god last night here's the newest here's the download where it's just like what you guys what are you doing but we know there's all the cult things that they do that's right to keep people believing it's nuts And this is what that is.

[1057] I don't know if you know this, we can cut this out, but is blood atonement like the threat?

[1058] Like you might have to do that?

[1059] Or is that a positive to the cult people?

[1060] Blood atonement is a threat to whoever tries to get out of the cult or the, you know, religion, let's say.

[1061] Blood atonement is a disputed doctrine in the history of Mormonism under which the Atonement of Jesus does not redeem an eternal sin to atone for eternal sin.

[1062] The sinner should be killed in a way that allows his blood to be shed up.

[1063] upon the ground as a sacrificial offering, so he does not become a son of perdition.

[1064] And that is via Wikipedia.

[1065] Got it.

[1066] Okay.

[1067] So I think it's more about the person being killed.

[1068] Is that what you meant?

[1069] It is, but it sounds like it's about the person in charge that's like, you actually tried to rise up against me. Now there will be blood atonement.

[1070] Exactly.

[1071] Yes.

[1072] So that you can get into the kingdom of heaven.

[1073] Yeah, you're welcome.

[1074] This basically means that anyone committing a sin must die to be spiritually cleansed.

[1075] Look, I had it right there and secure their place in the afterlife.

[1076] Look at that.

[1077] And he makes it known that anyone who fails to accept him as the rightful head of the original church that is being run by his brother.

[1078] He's like, now I'm in charge.

[1079] If you disagree, you are going to be blood -atoned.

[1080] There shall be blood -atoned.

[1081] Got it.

[1082] And then Ervil's like, hey, and I have someone great to go at the top of the list.

[1083] How about my brother, Joel, who ex -community?

[1084] communicated me. Oh, shit.

[1085] He's just like, I happen to have a list in my pocket.

[1086] It turns out I've been thinking about this a little bit.

[1087] So on August 20th, 1972, 50 -year -old Joel and his 14 -year -old son Ivan drive to the house of a church member in Ensenada, Mexico.

[1088] They think they're going to collect a car.

[1089] While Ivan, the son waits outside, two of Erville's henchmen ambushed Joel inside the house.

[1090] Ivan sees the men burst out of the house and run and so he goes into the house and finds his father's lifeless body on the floor in a pool of blood.

[1091] Joel had been savagely beaten with a chair and then shot twice in the head.

[1092] So blood atonement number one.

[1093] And so now Joel's out of the way.

[1094] So Erval's like, well, now I've got to take over, right?

[1095] This is great for me. But that doesn't happen because instead Ervil's 42 -year -old brother, Verlin, takes over.

[1096] These, I'm sorry, these names are, it feels like you're trying to make me giggle a little bit.

[1097] Every name is less likely than the last one you say.

[1098] They're like almost biblical, but with like a couple letters switched.

[1099] But they just keep sticking R's and Vs in the middle of everything.

[1100] It feels like.

[1101] They don't smell it like they say it either.

[1102] Yeah.

[1103] It's really hard for me. Typical.

[1104] Typical.

[1105] Irville goes on the run after the murder of his brother Joel, but four months later turns himself in to the Mexican.

[1106] police.

[1107] He is found guilty of Joel's murder in February of 1974.

[1108] He's 49 years old at this point.

[1109] But then in 1975, the verdict is overturned there in Mexico on a technicality, and he's released.

[1110] Many people suspect the court officials had been bribed for this to happen, you know, with money.

[1111] And actually, it's suspected, I read a couple in a couple places that they got in good with El Chapo and the Sinaloa cartel.

[1112] Because they were living.

[1113] in Mexico a lot of the times and like doing business with them with like a lot of stolen cars and trying to make money that way.

[1114] And so there was like some kind of agreement or some kind of shared.

[1115] That is dangerous and scary.

[1116] Like that's intense.

[1117] Yeah.

[1118] For sure.

[1119] Okay.

[1120] So Erville is still intent on taking over that original firstborn church of his father's.

[1121] So he decides to get rid of his other brother, Verlin, who's now in charge, your favorite name.

[1122] He's like a cult leader where he gets people to do his bidding, which is why he's called the Mormon Manson.

[1123] So he gets some of his church members, 16 -year -old Rena, and her older brother's 22 -year -old Mark and 18 -year -old Dwayne.

[1124] He tells them that God has told him the Los Molinos community must be destroyed and Verlund must die.

[1125] And so those three young people are too intimidated and too afraid of Ervil to refuse.

[1126] And so on the night of December 26, 1974, the Shinoff siblings drive to Los Melinos armed weapons.

[1127] Okay, listen to how fucked up this is.

[1128] They take Molotov cocktails and throw them into the house and when the people come running out of the house that's not with fire, they start shooting.

[1129] Oof.

[1130] Yeah.

[1131] Two people are killed and 13 are injured.

[1132] However, Verlin had been hiding out in Nicaragua at the time so he doesn't die, so he's still alive.

[1133] Erville's super pissed about that, which is like, dude, you should have done some planning and checking in that case.

[1134] Yeah, make a phone call.

[1135] Like, who's there?

[1136] Hi, can I talk to my brother?

[1137] No, he's, I can't.

[1138] Where's the main guy with a V in his name?

[1139] And because you know there's like the second, the third, junior, and they're all in the same name.

[1140] So, but Erville is arrested for orchestrating the raid, but he's released again due to lack of evidence.

[1141] So some of Erville's followers luckily become uncomfortable with what's going on.

[1142] and they start talking about reporting him to the police.

[1143] They become uncomfortable with people getting, like, running from fire and being mowed down.

[1144] Yeah, they're like, wait a second.

[1145] Hold on.

[1146] Too far.

[1147] 30 wives, yes.

[1148] Well, you know, people being murdered is pretty bad.

[1149] Okay.

[1150] It's very extreme.

[1151] Yes.

[1152] So one of those people is a 35 -year -old mother of five named Naomi.

[1153] And it's Chinoth, which is one of the siblings.

[1154] So when Erville finds out with Noemi is planning, he, assigns his 10th wife, plucks his 10th wife, out of the lineup, 34 -year -old V -Wa White.

[1155] Vanda, another V -Nanda.

[1156] Who is...

[1157] I do like that name, actually.

[1158] Do you, Vonda?

[1159] It sounds like it's, you're letting a girl be the lead guitarist of your band.

[1160] Yeah.

[1161] Vonda does the devil horns with her hand all the time.

[1162] Vonda, is there a Vonda Shepard?

[1163] I think that's what I'm, that's the name I'm plucking from the 80s.

[1164] That's nice.

[1165] Is it?

[1166] And her name's Vonda White.

[1167] Right, which is like such a, like, that is a rock and roll name.

[1168] She choose gum all the time.

[1169] Like, she chooses it in her sleep.

[1170] What kind?

[1171] Bubble yum or peppermint?

[1172] Yeah, I think it's like a bubble gum flavored gum.

[1173] Okay, gross.

[1174] Those make me fucking nauseous.

[1175] The kind that snaps, like you make little bubbles with your teeth.

[1176] When they give you the polish at the dentist without asking what you want and do the bubble gum one, and I literally makes me sick.

[1177] I've never had that happen.

[1178] You've never had bubble gum flavored?

[1179] Not bubble gum, but I did have that polish and that super gritty one.

[1180] Yeah, yeah.

[1181] I one time when I was like seven or eight asked my dentist if I could buy that.

[1182] Because I loved it.

[1183] I loved how it felt afterwards so much that I was like, can I, Dr. Brown was the greatest dentist of all time, the kindest best with the softest hands.

[1184] And I was like, when I was done, I was like, can I have some of that grit stuff?

[1185] Can I get it at the store?

[1186] And he started laughing.

[1187] He was like, Nope, only Dennis get to use it.

[1188] Oh, that was your first foray into buying drugs, I think.

[1189] Testing it out.

[1190] Fuck that shit, man. Get some fucking sea salt, crank it up, and put it in some olive oil, rub those teeth.

[1191] Ew.

[1192] You got to exfoliate those teeth.

[1193] I've been chasing that gritty, gritty experience ever since.

[1194] So Vonda is a friend, who's the 10th wife of Erbil, is a friend of Noemys, and Ervil's like, take, what's up, take her out?

[1195] Because she's trying to escape with her five kids.

[1196] So in January 1975, Vonda takes Noemi for just a quick drive up to a canyon in the foothills of the San Pedro Mountains, where she shoots Noemi dead and buries her in a shallow grave, and her body has never been found.

[1197] We only know this because people admitted to things later.

[1198] Mother of five.

[1199] Mother of five.

[1200] It's so horrible.

[1201] In February 1975, now 50 -year -old Erville marries his 13th wife, who was involved in trying to help.

[1202] kill Vernon.

[1203] So he's like, you did this thing.

[1204] So now I'm going to marry you.

[1205] Lucky you.

[1206] But by the time they marry, herbal has already been sexually abusing Rina for four years.

[1207] Oh.

[1208] Yeah.

[1209] So it's a lot of that evil, you know, rape and molestation of its children.

[1210] This is what happens when there's no oversight into what religious groups and cults are doing, you know?

[1211] Well, and also when people are using that kind of, it's the power of God.

[1212] It's this other thing.

[1213] that wants me to be doing this thing, so let me do whatever I want.

[1214] Like, it's never enough, so then it just keeps getting more extreme.

[1215] Right.

[1216] It's, yeah, horrible.

[1217] Yeah.

[1218] But not all of Erville's wives decide to stay with him.

[1219] As time passes, some make the brave decision to leave Mexico and take their children back to the United States to safety.

[1220] Erville finds out that one of his members, 36 -year -old Dean Vest, which definitely sounds like a fake name.

[1221] V -E -S -E -S -E -S -E -E -S -E -B -E -E -E -S.

[1222] Dean's a good name, I think.

[1223] Dean Vest is kind of a hilarious name.

[1224] If you were like...

[1225] Into vests?

[1226] If you were, yeah, if you were a bell hop.

[1227] I see a big...

[1228] It's the 70s.

[1229] I see a big gold belt buckle.

[1230] Yeah.

[1231] You know?

[1232] Yeah.

[1233] Like, I love polygamy written on it.

[1234] Etched on it, right?

[1235] Entirely.

[1236] So Dean Vest, so he finds out that this dude, Dean Vest is considering leaving the church.

[1237] So Erville tells his six months pregnant wife, Vonda.

[1238] At this point, Vonda was pregnant.

[1239] to take care of him.

[1240] So Vonda and her kids who live out in national city south of San Diego where Dean visits often.

[1241] So Vonda finds him and shoots him three times with a 38 revolver.

[1242] And she and her kids flee to Denver, Colorado where Erval has relocated with his followers.

[1243] So super evil.

[1244] So they moved back to the states.

[1245] Yeah, they're moving constantly because it's so clear that everyone's after them, the feds are after them, what they're doing is they're onto them.

[1246] They're just murdering people left and right.

[1247] Yeah.

[1248] I mean, it's insanity.

[1249] Okay.

[1250] So in Denver, Erville opens an appliance repair business, and he ordered his flock, including the children, to work unpaid for 16 -hour shifts.

[1251] Everyone except Ervil is living in poverty at this point in overcrowded accommodations, and they are dumpster diving to find food.

[1252] Meanwhile, the business is flourishing, of course, because he doesn't have to pay for fucking labor.

[1253] And if anyone questions Irville about like why this is happening, they're beaten.

[1254] So there's a lot of physical abuse going on as well.

[1255] Within 18 months, the business is so successful that Erval opens similar stores around the country.

[1256] In April 1977, Erbil's 17 -year -old daughter, Becky, is three months pregnant with her second child, right?

[1257] Yeah.

[1258] She's ready to leave the community and she wants to go to Mexico to raise her children.

[1259] She's unhappy with what her father is doing and she's considering going to the, police.

[1260] Before she can go to Mexico, she wants to go to Denver where her younger son is.

[1261] I think they'd like to separate the parents or the mom with babies so they can kind of keep them under control easier.

[1262] At least that's what happened and stay sweet in the documentary.

[1263] So Erville tells her that two of his sons will drive her to Denver, no problem, oh.

[1264] But just outside Dallas, the men pull the car over and they strangle Becky in the backseat before putting her body in the trunk of the car, again, her body's never found.

[1265] So it's a 17 -year -old who's three months pregnant with her second child.

[1266] And just the thought of leaving and going somewhere safe to raise her children in a safe place gets her murdered.

[1267] Yeah.

[1268] So then Ervil has his sights on this other dude named Rulin Allred.

[1269] He's a chiropractor and homeopath.

[1270] And he's a well -known leader of the Epistolic, he said?

[1271] Apostolic United Brethren and Ervill's pissed because he is stealing converts and embezzling funds in his mind.

[1272] And so on May 10th, 1977, Irville's wife, Rina and her stepdaughter, Ramona, both 19 years old, walk into Rulin's clinic in Salt Lake City wearing disguises.

[1273] They shoot Rulins six times with a 25 -caliber pistol, but the gun is traced to Rina.

[1274] But police can't locate her.

[1275] However, Ervil's first wife, Delphina, contacts law enforcement.

[1276] She's like, I'm fucking over this.

[1277] She turns in Rina saying she's hiding out in Mexico.

[1278] So at Rina's trial in March 1979, the now 21 -year -old, who's also pregnant, is found not guilty of murder based on insufficient evidence.

[1279] So they just keep getting away with these hits.

[1280] They're a fucking mafia, you know?

[1281] I wonder, and I'm not trying to be cute or anything.

[1282] Do it.

[1283] I honestly wonder if them working with the Sinaloa cartel, they picked up, like, this is, here's what we do to intimidate people into doing what we want or like, it could have been vice versa.

[1284] But to me, a lot of that stuff seems like mafia, gangster, like heavy -duty hitman shit.

[1285] And it's classic stuff too.

[1286] It's like Charles Manson, you know, depending on what you believe, never killed anyone.

[1287] I mean, I'm sure he did.

[1288] But in these stories and the things that they went to prison for, he wasn't even fucking there.

[1289] Right.

[1290] You learn these tactics that work really well, and it's very easy to turn those into religious, you know, into religions, quote unquote, and you think you're doing it for God.

[1291] And you convince people who believe in God.

[1292] But eventually, you convince them your God.

[1293] Right.

[1294] That's the story of every cult.

[1295] It's like, it starts out, I hear, I've got this message, I talked to him last night.

[1296] I'm your yoga teacher, but also.

[1297] And then truly, a year later, it's like, do my bidding, I am God.

[1298] Yeah.

[1299] That's why you shouldn't believe in anything at all, except TikTok.

[1300] Right?

[1301] TikTok dances.

[1302] When are we going to have my favorite murder TikTok dance account?

[1303] No, it's too much pressure.

[1304] And also, we're old.

[1305] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1306] Go on there and start to understand how truly.

[1307] Oh, I'm sorry.

[1308] Do you see how pink my hair is?

[1309] People might actually, you know what?

[1310] What?

[1311] You might convince some people that you're still 17.

[1312] I'm a millennial by six months.

[1313] I'm a millennial, get me out of here.

[1314] Waiter, there's a millennial in my suit.

[1315] Okay.

[1316] It's so hard.

[1317] It's so hard to be in the fucking world these days.

[1318] It really is.

[1319] These goddamn stories and TikTok and my encroaching age, I have a wrinkle above my lip that can't be covered anymore.

[1320] Yes, it can.

[1321] It's called Botox.

[1322] True.

[1323] I might just have to do the full face.

[1324] It's going to look like something from the Batman where it's like, here's my new face.

[1325] You can't see it, but I'm pulling all of the skin on my face backwards.

[1326] Karen can see it.

[1327] Yeah, there you go.

[1328] Oh, you look great now.

[1329] And you can act like this a whole time.

[1330] Because your mouth doesn't work anymore.

[1331] But I still don't leave my house.

[1332] But you'll get big lips to compensate.

[1333] Huge ones.

[1334] Where were we?

[1335] So despite Rina's acquittal, she confesses to the crime 13 years later in her memoir, the Blood Covenant.

[1336] Oh.

[1337] Great name.

[1338] And she explains how Erval manipulated and brainwashed his followers into carrying out his instructions without question.

[1339] And these are all really young people, too, that are carrying these out.

[1340] It's not the like 60 -something -year -olds who are killing people.

[1341] These are like teenagers, 20, 30s.

[1342] You just said at one point you described two women as being a woman, a 19 -year -old, and her stepdaughter who was also 19.

[1343] His stepdaughter.

[1344] Oh, I thought.

[1345] I did say that.

[1346] I corrected myself, but yes, that would be so creepy.

[1347] But all I'm saying is in that family, the mom was the same age as the daughter.

[1348] Right.

[1349] That's pretty intense.

[1350] Yes, that's a good point.

[1351] But also think about that these people, the very young people, this is what they grew up in.

[1352] The older ones remember it before when Erville's father was in charge and it probably wasn't as insane.

[1353] Right.

[1354] But these, you know, if you're 16, it's all you've ever fucking known is this extremism.

[1355] Yes, insane cults.

[1356] And they convince you that everyone else in the outside world is against you.

[1357] And anyone who doesn't believe what you believe is against you and you're actually doing them a favor by killing them.

[1358] And you're a better, a better, you know, child of God by carrying these things out too.

[1359] It's just so much, it's hard to, like, it's hard to blame these children for doing these things.

[1360] No, it's everything they've been told is a lie and that is the kind of thing.

[1361] people cannot accept.

[1362] You can't, like, expect people to just go, oh, you're right.

[1363] Everything I know to be true is false.

[1364] Ever.

[1365] That is, like, your brain -breaking.

[1366] Yeah.

[1367] It's, that's the whole cult, like, the cult mentality of society today and the thing we're seeing in America, it's truly, like, people can't be talked down off that MAGA wall because it's basically saying, you've been lied too terribly.

[1368] Right.

[1369] And it's too, yeah, it's too late because you've done things that you were.

[1370] will regret if you stop believing in what you believe in.

[1371] And these people, too, are killing.

[1372] They're killing people who decide to leave this congregation.

[1373] So what are they going to do?

[1374] Like, this isn't too much for me. I'm out of here.

[1375] You just killed someone for saying the same fucking thing.

[1376] You can't do that.

[1377] No, no. Now it's just pure panic and fear all the time.

[1378] Right.

[1379] It's terrifying.

[1380] So meanwhile, Ervil is evading authorities by moving between San Diego, Salt Lake City, and the mountains south of Mexico City.

[1381] But in May, 1979, the now 50 -year -old Ervil hands himself into Mexican police and his extradited to the United States to face trial for ordering Ruland's murder.

[1382] So finally, he's caught.

[1383] In 1980, he's convicted and sentenced to life where his reign of power and murder comes to an end.

[1384] Just kidding.

[1385] Doesn't come to an end.

[1386] He is in prison for life.

[1387] But during his imprisonment, Ervil writes a lengthy document entitled The Book of the New Covenants, in which he directs his followers to carry out blood atonement on specified individuals in what is essentially a hit list.

[1388] So somehow he's able to give that information to someone.

[1389] His targets include the Shin 'ath brothers, Eddie Marston and Dan Jordan, who have at this point left the church.

[1390] Meanwhile, the FBI catches up with 39 -year -old Vonda.

[1391] White over the murder of Dean Vest.

[1392] So they get her in 1980.

[1393] She's convicted and sentenced to life in prison.

[1394] And then on August 16th, 1981, 56 -year -old Erville is found dead in his cell after supposedly suffering a heart attack, but apparently a note is found in his cell that says, I've gone to meet my maker, which makes some people believe, obviously, that he's taken his own life.

[1395] Like, he probably didn't write that in the middle of a fucking heart attack.

[1396] Right.

[1397] True.

[1398] And then And bizarrely, that very same day in Mexico City, his brother, Verlin, who he couldn't kill because he was in Nicaragua, is involved in a car accident and dies as well.

[1399] So some people think that Verlin, that car accident was actually a hit.

[1400] Yeah.

[1401] But it's never proven.

[1402] Okay.

[1403] So now that Ervil's dead, his reign of power and murder comes to an end.

[1404] Just kidding.

[1405] It doesn't.

[1406] For real?

[1407] For real.

[1408] I have three more pages.

[1409] Oh, Jesus.

[1410] So even though Erval's dead, his devotee.

[1411] are committed to following through on his instructions.

[1412] After his death, Ervil's tyrannical 20 -year -old son, Heber, H -E -B -E -E -R.

[1413] H -E -B -E -R.

[1414] Heber is how it's written.

[1415] It would be hard if you were trying to write names this weird.

[1416] It would take you a while.

[1417] Yeah.

[1418] It's like, let's get one that I know all the letters and they all make sense together.

[1419] It's not like they're mixing up letters, but I don't understand how to pronounce that.

[1420] It's almost like they're putting normal names on a piece of paper and then they're like pull two letters per name.

[1421] Switch you around.

[1422] And then switch them to the name above.

[1423] That's exactly.

[1424] Once you run out of being a junior, the second, the third, the fourth, then just take some letters and vowels.

[1425] And like, let's play a mad libs with these names and see what we can get.

[1426] And every adjective is a V and every noun is an E. So, this 20 -year -old son becomes the tyrannical leader, which is what everyone wants in life, is to be led by a 20 -year -old named Heber.

[1427] And so to keep the family's illicit activities under the radar, Heber bribes Mexican authorities by trafficking his sisters and wives in return for protection.

[1428] Good.

[1429] So, like we always hear about things women are just ponds and, like, cattle to be owned.

[1430] God, damn.

[1431] During this time, Erval's fifth and twelfth wives, you got that?

[1432] Are those on your bingo card?

[1433] Yeah, I'm tracking them chronologically, so fifth and twelfth, yeah.

[1434] Their 42 -year -old Lorna and 54 -year -old Yolanda, they're murdered in separate incidents, and their bodies are never found either.

[1435] And in 1987, Heber takes Ervill's remaining wives and teenage children to the U .S. To survive financially, they establish an auto -theft ring, which doesn't sound very Mormon.

[1436] to me. Stealing four -wheel drives and selling them in Mexico for up to 10 grand apiece.

[1437] So they basically just start a fucking...

[1438] A new crime business, yeah.

[1439] Yeah.

[1440] And continue to say they're Mormon.

[1441] When Heber ends up in custody over a Texas robbery, his 19 -year -old brother Aaron steps up to run the church.

[1442] So now we've got a 19 -year -old in charge.

[1443] Okay.

[1444] When 19 -year -old Aaron orchestrates a highly coordinated plan to kill the Shin 'ath brothers and Eddie Marston, who ex -com.

[1445] communicated themselves from the church.

[1446] And so 24 -year -old Heber, his sister, Cynthia, Patricia, Natasha, stepbrother Douglas Barlow, and 17 -year -old brother Richard go to Texas where the intended victims live.

[1447] And at 4 p .m. in Houston, on June 27, 1988, they execute their plan.

[1448] 32 -year -old Dwayne Shinoth and his 8 -year -old daughter, Jennifer, are shot and killed after being lowered to an empty house.

[1449] So these are ruthless killers.

[1450] Yes.

[1451] They're like mad dogs, the amount of killing that is happening here.

[1452] So much in the name of fundamentalist Mormonism.

[1453] So then simultaneously at the exact same time, Dwayne's 36 -year -old brother, Mark, is shot multiple times in his office.

[1454] So they go to these three locations to kill these three different people.

[1455] And then in Irving, 200 miles away, 33 -year -old Eddie is gunned down next to his pickup truck.

[1456] And because of the time of day, these killings occur, the media dubs, the crimes, the four o 'clock murders.

[1457] Ooh.

[1458] I know.

[1459] Creepy, right?

[1460] Like, they all happen simultaneously.

[1461] I just, I don't know why I find that so, like, calculated.

[1462] It means there's a plan.

[1463] They had to discuss the plan.

[1464] Multiple people were in on the plan.

[1465] It's also very scary and kind of like, there's the hills have eyes quality to it, of like, it's five family members showing up to kill.

[1466] Right.

[1467] Everyone agrees that we should kill these.

[1468] people.

[1469] Yeah, it's just horrifying.

[1470] It is.

[1471] The following week, Heber, Cynthia Douglas and Patricia are arrested in a motel in Phoenix, Arizona.

[1472] They're arrested for car theft, but the police searched their rooms and they find disguises, loaded weapons, and newspaper articles about the murders.

[1473] It's not enough evidence to make any arrests for the murders, but of course they are on the radar.

[1474] So four years later, in May 1992, Cynthia, one of the murderers, who's in prison on an auto theft charges, tells authorities she'll provide information about her sibling's involvement in the murders in exchange for immunity.

[1475] So she said she'll do it for immunity.

[1476] So in January 1993, she testifies against all of them at their trials, which is pretty incredible.

[1477] Natasha doesn't go to trial because she's been murdered herself in late 1991, possibly at Aaron's orders, because he believes she's straying from the teachings of the church.

[1478] 26 -year -old Jacqueline is indicted but goes on the run.

[1479] Now 29 -year -old, he's.

[1480] Bieber, 27 -year -old Patricia and 31 -year -old Douglas are all acquitted of murder, but convicted on witness tampering and sentenced to life in federal prison without parole, which is funny because they probably would have got a lesser sentence for murder, which is infuriating.

[1481] 21 -year -old Richard makes a plea deal and a sentence to five years because he was only 17 when the murders occurred.

[1482] And even though Ervil has been dead for over 10 years by this point, the media dubs him the Mormon Manson.

[1483] I mean, it couldn't be more accurate.

[1484] I'm so almost done with this.

[1485] This feels so long and confusing.

[1486] There's so many names.

[1487] You're talking about a family filled with murderers.

[1488] It's like beyond reason.

[1489] It is.

[1490] And I never fucking heard of this.

[1491] I haven't either.

[1492] In June 1997, 29 -year -old Aaron is found guilty of racketeering, racketeering conspiracy and conspiracy to violate the civil rights of the victims and a sentence to 45 years in prison.

[1493] Jacqueline's finally captured by the FBI.

[1494] She pleads guilty to conspiracy.

[1495] She's sentenced to three years in prison.

[1496] It's like because they can't find those bodies, they just have to get them on a technicality, essentially.

[1497] Exactly, exactly.

[1498] Not much is known today about either church or their leadership structure.

[1499] It's all kind of secret, hush, hush.

[1500] For many years, the LeBaron family and other former members of Erville's church remained in hiding.

[1501] But in 2020, the Utah legislature decriminalizes polygamy.

[1502] Between consenting adults, the offense becomes a third -degree felony.

[1503] And it's still punishable by prison time, but it's hope that the change in legislation brings polygamy out into the open because essentially when you criminalize something like sex work or polygamy then the victims of crimes in those you know and are afraid to come forward so by taking it off by taking being prosecuted and going to prison off the table then the victims can come forward and feel safe so that's that totally makes sense and it's by eliminating the secrecy women who want to leave can do so as well and they can have help.

[1504] And also so they can report any abuse that's occurring as well and not be afraid of prosecution.

[1505] So in recent years, Utah and Arizona have stepped up their efforts to enforce laws in fundamentalist communities where child abuse, domestic violence, trafficking, and exploitation are suspected to occur.

[1506] Hence that amazing documentary we watched.

[1507] In her 2017 memoir, Ervil's daughter, Anna LeBaron, who escaped when she was 13 years old, old.

[1508] She knew that at 14, she was going to be married off.

[1509] And so this brave, badass woman escaped to go live with the Shinoff family who were murdered while she was staying with them.

[1510] So it's just an incredible story of how she, like, was able to escape, which is such a rare thing.

[1511] At 13, she had the wherewithal.

[1512] Her mom wasn't even escaping with her.

[1513] She was just, like, out.

[1514] It's incredible.

[1515] Wow.

[1516] So her memoir is called the polygamous daughter.

[1517] So check that out if you're interested.

[1518] She told the BBC article this, when you are so convinced that someone is right, that you are willing to do anything, and even if you disagree, if you are so afraid to voice that disagreement, and you just go and do it, that's the ultimate control.

[1519] And he had that.

[1520] People did what he said to their own detriment.

[1521] Even from the grave, he was able to control people and their actions.

[1522] And that is the story of the Mormon Manson, Ervil LeBaron.

[1523] I mean, that really is, an insane amount of power to be dead and have people still, like, conducting your business for you.

[1524] It's unbelievable.

[1525] And also, there's a whole podcast called Deliver Us from Irville, which is fucking great fun.

[1526] Oh, amazing.

[1527] Hooray.

[1528] That's a recent podcast.

[1529] And then there's a book by Sally Denton called The Colony.

[1530] And that's about the recent massacre of women and children who are Mormon fundamentalists in Mexico that happened recently, where their cars were burnt.

[1531] And I think she talks a lot about the fundamentalist LeBaron tribe as well.

[1532] So check that out.

[1533] Wow.

[1534] It's called The Colony.

[1535] It's so weird to hear something, hear about a story that huge, that scary, that, like, all over the place.

[1536] Never, ever heard about it before.

[1537] Well, same with yours.

[1538] I'd never heard about yours either.

[1539] I mean, well, that's another fucking two -hour specialty just for you, served up.

[1540] Well, I was just going to shut it down.

[1541] We're done.

[1542] Please do.

[1543] We love you.

[1544] It's so nice that you still listen to this podcast when we've been doing it like this for six years.

[1545] Messy.

[1546] We're messy.

[1547] You've never gotten fed up, and we really appreciate it.

[1548] Stay sexy.

[1549] And don't get murdered.

[1550] Goodbye.

[1551] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[1552] This has been an exactly right production.

[1553] Our senior producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton.

[1554] Our producer is Alejandra Keck.

[1555] This episode was engineered and mixed by Stephen Ray Morris.

[1556] researchers are Marin McClashon and Gemma Harris.

[1557] Email your hometowns and fucking hoorays to My Favorite Murder at gmail .com.

[1558] Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at My Fave Murder.

[1559] Goodbye.

[1560] Follow My Favorite Murder on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen so you don't miss an episode.

[1561] If you like what you hear, rate and review the show.

[1562] Visit exactly right store .com to purchase My Favorite Murder merch.