Adam Mosseri

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert, experts on expert.

[1] I am joined by the world famous Monica Monsoon.

[2] Hello, Monica.

[3] I'm back with the weather.

[4] The weather is beautiful every day.

[5] Clear skies, sunshine.

[6] Use that SPF.

[7] It's going to be a beautiful day for a picnic and or any outdoor activity.

[8] Always use SPF.

[9] Always use SPF.

[10] Although Eric's got me thinking, don't use it.

[11] So you can get more vitamin D. Oh, my God.

[12] Don't listen to that.

[13] Don't listen to that.

[14] Okay, today we have a very interesting guest, Adam Mosseri.

[15] Adam O'Sary is the CEO of Instagram.

[16] This is such a fun, interesting conversation.

[17] Because when do you get to sit down with the person who is in charge of an app you use extensively?

[18] Non -stop.

[19] So I got to air some complaints.

[20] Some concerns.

[21] Some concerns.

[22] Have them clear up some debates that have happened.

[23] Yeah.

[24] Really just celebrate an app that I personally love and use all the time.

[25] Yeah.

[26] Now, Adam was a formerly product designer.

[27] for Facebook, design director for the company's mobile apps, oversell Facebook's news feed section, and eventually vice president of product.

[28] He's a very smart, charming, as you'll hear, we talk about it all the time during the interview.

[29] Very handsome, man. Very.

[30] So please enjoy Adam O'Sary.

[31] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[32] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[33] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[34] He's an Your color scheme works With the mustard And you're black Like cardigan Well in general Brown people look great In yellow and orange And then if I wear an orange suit It looks horrendous Yeah yellow is bad on me too Yeah Yeah well it washes y 'all out Yeah What it does see Oh hi Hello Isn't that great It's just you know Up close and personal I don't like the sound of my voice.

[35] I avoid watching or listening to myself, which is a problem given that I do a lot of speaking for a living.

[36] Well, it's very instrumental in figuring out what your bad habits are, right?

[37] Like this podcast immediately exposed to me a bunch of terrible things about myself.

[38] What are some of your bad habits?

[39] One is I talk way too much.

[40] That's tough.

[41] Yeah.

[42] Do you share in that at all?

[43] I do talk too much.

[44] Yeah, yeah.

[45] Like, do you do this when you're driving, you're married and you have a couple kids?

[46] Two kids.

[47] Okay.

[48] Two and a half.

[49] Two and a half children.

[50] I got a four -year -old, a two -year -old, and a negative three -month -old.

[51] And in -uneral.

[52] Oh, this is great.

[53] Yeah, all boys.

[54] Oh, wow.

[55] It's going to be fucking mayhem.

[56] Wow.

[57] Which one's going to punch you when they're 18?

[58] Do you figure that out yet?

[59] Oh, it's, well, I would have said clearly Nico the oldest, because he used to be more physical.

[60] Uh -huh.

[61] But the two -year -old, who's very mellow is turning into a jerk.

[62] Okay.

[63] Like an indomitable, indomitable.

[64] Yeah.

[65] So I don't know.

[66] No, no, it's a dog stuff.

[67] Well, so I have two daughters.

[68] If one was, it would have been, it'd be the younger one as well.

[69] Yeah, because I just think they're, they fucking battle from day one with the older sibling.

[70] Yeah, and how far apart are your daughters?

[71] Under two years.

[72] Okay, yeah, so same thing, because we're just under two years.

[73] A three -year -old and a one -year -old, at least in the boy's side, seem completely incompatible.

[74] Uh -huh.

[75] Because a three -year -old needs space, can't share, et cetera.

[76] And a one -year -old has no sense of space or, like, personal space and just invades.

[77] And so we're kind of coming out of that now at four and two.

[78] but three in one was tough.

[79] And I'm going to do it all over again.

[80] Because why not?

[81] Personally, I think three is just a bad number of humans, period.

[82] Okay.

[83] If you take a trip with two other people, someone's on the outside.

[84] I like it.

[85] I have a brother and a sister.

[86] Okay.

[87] And we hang out the three of us a lot.

[88] What order are you in that?

[89] I'm, we'll take one of guess, maybe.

[90] Youngest.

[91] I'm going to say middle.

[92] What are the reasons?

[93] I don't know.

[94] Because I project.

[95] Because I'm egocentric, and I project, and I'm the middle, and I have a sister and her brother.

[96] I'm the eldest.

[97] The eldest.

[98] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[99] My brother's two years younger and my sister's 11 years younger.

[100] Brothers is a film score and a musician here in L .A. sister is a furnisher designer in Berlin.

[101] In Berlin?

[102] She just moved to Berlin.

[103] Wow.

[104] Two years ago.

[105] And she has a visa.

[106] She has a boyfriend.

[107] She has an apartment.

[108] She has a job.

[109] She speaks German.

[110] Wow.

[111] And we're all kind of like, what happened?

[112] Yeah.

[113] Berlin is a really cool.

[114] city.

[115] So I keep hearing that.

[116] Okay, back to the children.

[117] So here's my theory on why your youngest one probably will battle you.

[118] The second one just got rejection from day one from the older sister.

[119] So it doesn't bother her.

[120] Like if we're disappointed in her or we reject her in some capacity, doesn't give a fuck.

[121] Do you think maybe there's some merit to that?

[122] So the research suggests that there is not, but I disagree with the research, which is not a probably good place to be.

[123] But there's just way too much anecdotal evidence that those things happen.

[124] For us, it's not just the little things like that, don't bother Blaze, the younger one.

[125] Hold on, Blaze and...

[126] Nico and Blaze.

[127] Nico and Blaise.

[128] Nico Elijah, Mosseri, and Blaze Emmanuel.

[129] We get one of Jewie middle names.

[130] These are great.

[131] I like that.

[132] We were just like, I want to pick a name that we like the sound of, and the kid will like when they're older.

[133] Right.

[134] The hope.

[135] Yeah.

[136] Blaze is a little bit of a risky bet.

[137] Like, he might love it.

[138] He might really not.

[139] But he's named after his godfather, so...

[140] Oh, that's...

[141] Wait, his godfather's name is Blaze?

[142] Yeah, B -L -A -I -S - It's a French name.

[143] Oh.

[144] I like that.

[145] Not like Blaze of Glory.

[146] Well, are you remembering at all my story when a guy introduced himself to me at a bar as Blaze?

[147] And he had like, you know, a very aggressive look.

[148] Oh, nice.

[149] And I said, nah.

[150] I'm not calling you that.

[151] I know you gave yourself that name.

[152] I refuse to call you that.

[153] And now I'm thinking he really could have been.

[154] He could have been French.

[155] Yes.

[156] Or maybe his parents were French.

[157] Very aggressive Frenchman.

[158] You don't know.

[159] Going back to tough second kids.

[160] blaze, he's one of his front teeth, he's missing half of it and it's crooked.

[161] Oh, great.

[162] And we don't know what happened.

[163] I think he was probably crawling and just like, bonged, broke half of his tooth off, swallowed it, didn't cry, and just kept going on.

[164] And I think the only way he's, like, that tough is because, like, his brother, you know, roughed him up and he just, like, got used to it.

[165] So he's like, yeah, half my tooth's gone.

[166] It's fine.

[167] Yeah, it was only a three on the scale.

[168] And so we went to the dentist and they were like, can you, like, fix it?

[169] And they're like, it'll fall out.

[170] And I was like, well, like, when?

[171] And they're like, six or seven years.

[172] I was like, this kid's photos for seven years are going to be like, but it's so on brand for a boy named Blaze.

[173] Yeah, maybe it is.

[174] My best friend named his youngest son, Texas Tuck.

[175] Wow.

[176] And I'm like, same what you're saying.

[177] Wait, Tuck is the middle name?

[178] Tuck is the last name.

[179] Tuck is the last name.

[180] Okay, Texas Tuck.

[181] I like it.

[182] It's pretty great, but it's a lot of name.

[183] You got it.

[184] to deliver on Texas Tuck.

[185] That's how I feel about Blaze a little bit.

[186] It sounds like he already is, though.

[187] He already is delivering.

[188] It does sound like that he is.

[189] Now, you're from New York, yeah?

[190] Chipakabana, New York.

[191] Chappaquina, New York.

[192] Chappaqua.

[193] Chappaqua.

[194] Some people know now, it's in the suburbs of New York City.

[195] Because the Clintons move there, so Hillary could establish residency in New York State so she could run for Senate.

[196] So it was like a 16 -year -old.

[197] We worked at Starbucks and worked at a French bistro.

[198] I actually waited and served coffee to Bill and Hillary.

[199] No. And Chelsea.

[200] No. And are you roughly, how old are you?

[201] 37.

[202] How old is Chelsea?

[203] I think she's a year or two older than me. And did it cross your mind to try to get something going with her?

[204] No. It didn't.

[205] Well, she was very busy, if I remember correctly.

[206] So I was waiting tables at the bistro and she left to take a phone call and her friend was there.

[207] So I kind of kept her friend company.

[208] Okay.

[209] Well, not like company company, but just like, you're alone now.

[210] So I'm going to just like make sure I check on you on a reasonable frequency.

[211] So she was like rolling calls at 16.

[212] Yeah, I mean, yeah, probably 18, but yeah.

[213] Oh, okay.

[214] Just to give her a little credit.

[215] Yeah, I would have, I would have went straight to like, my goodness, I could be a part of the Clinton family.

[216] If I play my cards right, I could be on a vacation with them and Martha's Vineyard or something.

[217] Didn't even occur to me. Wow.

[218] You are ambitious, so maybe it was a late on set.

[219] Yeah, I mean, I was.

[220] You're just not creepy.

[221] Maybe.

[222] I'll take that.

[223] Waiting was the first thing that I found professionally that I was really good at.

[224] Oh, okay.

[225] And so I was like, ooh, I'm really good at this.

[226] And I was like, I don't know if I want to be a waiter, though.

[227] So it was kind of an interesting moment.

[228] So Monica and we're literally last night discussing that neither of us proved to be great in the customer service industry.

[229] She was the face she'd see at SoulCycle when you entered.

[230] And I was a host at California.

[231] your pizza kitchen.

[232] Ooh.

[233] And we both got in trouble a few different times for not, for not believing the customer was right.

[234] Oh, kill them with kindness.

[235] It's hard to do.

[236] I admire that so much.

[237] I learned that young, I worked at this bistro and there was a lot of entitled customers.

[238] Yeah.

[239] Same, same.

[240] A more experienced waiter at the bistro.

[241] It was like, you just have to kill them with kindness.

[242] And I never forgot it.

[243] And it's a superpower, right?

[244] I think it's really valuable.

[245] Yeah.

[246] I also think it's really good even if you don't.

[247] end up working in service or you don't like it to spend some time in service because then you have much more empathy when you work with people or you go to a restaurant or you go to a bar.

[248] And I do hope this serves as a cautionary warning to all people that your Starbucks server may end up on a podcast.

[249] A lot of people listen to.

[250] Or may end up starting Instagram.

[251] Didn't start.

[252] Didn't start.

[253] Didn't start.

[254] Took it over.

[255] Same thing.

[256] Yeah, yeah.

[257] You'd be nice to your barista.

[258] Yeah.

[259] You just don't know.

[260] If you can't get verified, that might be why.

[261] Okay, so you're a big gentleman You're a strapping gentleman Oh, like physically large You're 6 -3 Yes And you're 205 210 Okay 205 sounds better I'll try to get there Were you athletic?

[262] Not particularly Okay As a kid I played soccer And in high school I ran track In cross -country and played soccer But I was never particularly Athletically gifted track was better because you didn't require as much coordination.

[263] Right.

[264] You know, it could move relatively quickly, but the coordination was not my strong.

[265] See, my wife makes fun of me for it all the time.

[266] Just like, I used to pull vault.

[267] Oh, wow.

[268] That requires an immense amount of coordination.

[269] Yeah.

[270] I wasn't that great at it.

[271] Okay.

[272] You were halfway there.

[273] Just to get up.

[274] Yeah.

[275] But yeah, no, I mean, I do really like being active, though.

[276] So I'm very active now, and I usually switch what I do every six or 12 months.

[277] You're like the orcas at Sea World.

[278] You got to learn a new trick, like, every four days.

[279] I didn't know the Orcas at SeaWorld.

[280] I didn't learn new tricks.

[281] I mean, let's just set aside right now the horror show that is that.

[282] But, okay, let me just give you a fun fact in the midst of all that.

[283] What was that documentary?

[284] Blackfish?

[285] Yes.

[286] But the orcas, unlike the dolphins, the dolphins, you can teach them a trick, and they want that fish.

[287] And they'll do that trick for months and months on end.

[288] The Orcas, they had to teach them new tricks like every few days because they don't give a fuck how much fish you're giving them.

[289] They get bored so easy.

[290] They only want to do stuff that's stimulating.

[291] Very smart.

[292] They're incredibly smart.

[293] They're one of the only animals that has a neocortex index as high as humans.

[294] Oof.

[295] Yeah.

[296] That is wild.

[297] Okay.

[298] So what strata were you in high school?

[299] Because I just want to say that I succumb to stereotypes.

[300] So when I go, oh, this guy runs Instagram, I'm expecting a certain person to walk in.

[301] Oh, what did you expect?

[302] Not a strapping buck.

[303] Okay.

[304] I'm picturing the guy who got shoved in high school, who was super duper smart, introverted.

[305] That's why I'm hesitant to use adjectives that sound pejorative because I don't dislike that look or anything.

[306] I just, you're a strapping buck.

[307] I was very nerdy.

[308] You were very nerdy.

[309] I looked like Harry Potter before Harry Potter was cool.

[310] Oh, okay.

[311] I had Corbusier Coke bottle glasses that made my eyes as big as lemons and a bowl haircut and just like the whole thing.

[312] And you were probably really thin and super tall?

[313] I was really thin.

[314] I weighed maybe in high school, because I pulled while did I know my weight.

[315] I weighed just under 160 and I was as tall as I am now.

[316] Right.

[317] That sounds like a bean pole.

[318] This is the thing where you grow faster than you fill out and so you sort of drag your limbs around because you don't know how to coordinate, you don't have the coordination.

[319] That's right.

[320] That was me. Okay.

[321] So you're laughing all the way to the bank because you're studly looking at all the stuff.

[322] But you went to NYU.

[323] I did.

[324] And really quick, what did your parents do?

[325] My father is a psychotherapist.

[326] So he does marriage counseling and parental consulting.

[327] And he still does that.

[328] My mother is an architect, and she runs her own firm.

[329] And she also still does that.

[330] And did you guys have a super cool house?

[331] We had a pretty cool house.

[332] It was always really thoughtful.

[333] So good details, some old furniture, some new furniture, but always thoughtful on that front.

[334] Actually, I looked at this immediately.

[335] I can't remember which chair this is a reference to, but it's some mid -century modern American piece.

[336] Yeah.

[337] Just so you know, Monica's sitting in a very elegant wood chair.

[338] with a nice sort of mustard.

[339] Joybird.

[340] Oh, we post a lot of pictures of it.

[341] People are very familiar.

[342] Oh, okay.

[343] Yeah, they like it.

[344] They like it.

[345] So you went there and studied design.

[346] So I went to NYU and there's a school at NYU called Gallatin.

[347] Enlight me on this because my wife went to Tish and other people go to that.

[348] Why are there so many names for NYU?

[349] Because there are different colleges within a larger university.

[350] So it's a series of colleges with a strong affiliation.

[351] So standard infrastructure, brand, et cetera.

[352] But there are different colleges, different teachers, different curriculum, different majors.

[353] Oh, okay.

[354] Curricula.

[355] Do you know how many there are?

[356] I should, I don't know, somewhere between half a dozen and a dozen.

[357] Tissues for arts, sternness for business.

[358] There's a college of arts and science, which is more of the traditional college.

[359] Gallatin is the school of individualized study.

[360] There's a handful of others.

[361] And Gallatin is a program where you make up your own major.

[362] Oh, were your parents resistant to this, or were they supportive?

[363] They were busy they just had no opinion they were in the actually when I first went to school they were in the midst of a divorce ironic for a marriage counselor a little bit right no I make that point all the time I'm sure you do he's actually quite good at what he does and so I don't know some of the best trainers are out of shape I'm told I don't know is that true I don't know I just made that up well there are styleists sometimes dress shabby dentists sometimes have bad teeth I don't know maybe there's something there I was going to a doctor for thick hair.

[364] Yeah.

[365] And he would shoot my scalp with a syringe.

[366] Did it do anything?

[367] No, I don't think he did anything.

[368] But a lot of people went and I was like, I'll give this a shot.

[369] This guy's hair was the worst I've ever seen in my life.

[370] I mean, it was beyond that it was bald.

[371] There was all kinds of other things going on in his head.

[372] And it was just so weird to have that guy be stabbing your head with needles.

[373] Yeah, that sounds pretty weird.

[374] It was really, really weird.

[375] Maybe it's more like because someone was stabbing your head with needles.

[376] Maybe that was the result, the long -term result, yeah.

[377] Sorry, Gallatin.

[378] You pick essentially a major, and then you design a curriculum by taking classes at all those other colleges within the university.

[379] And I think about a third of the kids are very opinionated, and they really take advantage of it.

[380] So I had a friend who wanted to be a photographer for National Geographic.

[381] So he dual majored in environmental science at the College of Arts and Science.

[382] And photography at Tisch, which has a great photography program.

[383] And then a third of the kids are honestly kind of coasting.

[384] I knew a kid who tried to major in sarcasm.

[385] They didn't let him do that.

[386] So there are standards.

[387] And then a third are kind of more in the middle.

[388] What if they would have just said, that's a great idea?

[389] If he understood that, they're like, oh, you already passed.

[390] So let's do another major.

[391] 4 .0.

[392] What did you spend your specific time on?

[393] I called it information design and media studies.

[394] I was a designer.

[395] and I try to understand, okay, the different forms of, you know, communicative media.

[396] So how people communicate, how they've changed over time and how designer's roles have changed over time.

[397] So you go all the way back to, like, song, to, you know, long narrative and writing to, you know, you fast forward, you've got film, radio, TV, internet.

[398] And I try to understand those different media and then the designer's role in those different media over time.

[399] Charles Eames and Charles and Raim's are two really amazing American designers.

[400] And Charles, I think, had a definition, I'm going to botch it, so I apologize for those of you who actually know this.

[401] The definition of design was arranging a series of elements to accomplish a particular function, I think, was the definition.

[402] And so it's a very broad definition.

[403] And a lot of designers I know today will take a pretty broad approach to design.

[404] So yes, you might apply that in different mediums, industrial design, lighting, furniture, fabrics, graphic interaction.

[405] But you're all trying to articulate something you want to accomplish a goal and then evaluate different ways of accomplishing that goal and then iterate through it.

[406] That's very consistent.

[407] So while you were there, I guess in 2003, you started your own business.

[408] Yeah.

[409] So I was trying to make rent and beer money.

[410] New York is expensive.

[411] And so I started freelancing during graphic design.

[412] And I ended up getting some web design projects.

[413] I started to teach myself out a program.

[414] And that turned into a consultancy eventually, which was an actual business.

[415] And then by the time I left, we were tiny, but we had two offices, one in San Francisco and one in New York.

[416] We did a lot of design for designers.

[417] So some industrial designers, some architects, the cash cows, the paying jobs were usually for these new developments.

[418] New York real estate was particularly hot at that moment.

[419] You would actually sell the apartments before you had built them.

[420] And so all the collateral became incredibly important.

[421] So, you know, you'd design the building and then you'd hire someone like us to build a website, build a brochure, build all these different collateral out so that someone felt good about putting a down payment.

[422] Oh, I've lived through many of those.

[423] Yeah.

[424] Oh, this is going to be spectacular.

[425] Those paid better than architects did.

[426] Oh, no kidding.

[427] And let me ask you something.

[428] If you had to say the finished product was, let's use out of a hundred, how accurate was what you guys had put together in a brochure and then the finished product disappointment level is?

[429] Uh, light.

[430] Was there supposed to be a waterfall in the lobby?

[431] I'm not seeing that.

[432] I thought there was a bathroom over here.

[433] Yeah.

[434] So after college, you eventually go to work for Facebook.

[435] I did.

[436] How did you get that job?

[437] So I moved out West in 2005, and I started an office there.

[438] And then starting in 2006, I had a friend who started to work at Facebook.

[439] And so she tried to get me to apply.

[440] And I was like, that seems silly.

[441] I'm my own boss.

[442] Yeah.

[443] And so I didn't apply.

[444] And then I had more and more friends start working there.

[445] I still wasn't interested.

[446] And then June, May, 07, we launched a platform, which allowed people to build on top of Facebook.

[447] And I built a music app called Boombox.

[448] Okay.

[449] Which didn't host MP3s, but allowed you to share links to MP3s, make playlist, share them with friends.

[450] And it ended up getting maybe a quarter of a million users, which was way more than everything I had done combined.

[451] Yeah.

[452] And it was way more fun.

[453] building something that I felt some ownership over than working with clients.

[454] And so I was like, oh, maybe I should apply.

[455] So I applied in June of 7.

[456] Okay, so when you got there, did you love it?

[457] Did you find that you had now all this capital behind you or the right tools to do things you wanted to do?

[458] I did love it.

[459] It took me a long time to get there.

[460] Oh.

[461] It took me a year and changed to get an interview.

[462] So I kept applying every month or two.

[463] So when I first got there, there was sort of a sense of like finally or relief as that was sort of like a predominant sensation.

[464] It was not what I expected.

[465] I thought it was going to be, you know, everything was going to be super organized.

[466] We were, I don't know, less than 100 million users, but that's a lot of users, even if it's I don't know, 70 -ish.

[467] And you know, it seemed like a big company.

[468] It was about 400 people.

[469] And I was expecting everything just to be dialed.

[470] Sure.

[471] And it was not.

[472] But I actually was very comfortable with chaos because that's what, I mean, running your own thing is all chaos.

[473] And so, So I enjoyed it.

[474] I worked a lot.

[475] How far in was Facebook at that time?

[476] Was it so early?

[477] We were smaller than MySpace.

[478] MySpace was the big competition.

[479] We wanted to get bigger than MySpace.

[480] And Twitter was super new.

[481] They were sort of like the hot new thing.

[482] And do you sometimes think like, oh, if I were to have entered Facebook five years later where it wasn't chaos, I actually wouldn't have found footing there?

[483] I never thought to that.

[484] Probably if I had done five more years of chaos outside and then tried to insert myself inside, it would have been harder.

[485] it would have been a lot harder to adjust.

[486] Okay, so once you're there, you start, I have to assume, demonstrating some aptitude because you start moving up there pretty quickly.

[487] Yes, though the context here is when I joined there were probably less than 10 designers, maybe seven -ish, and our designers were very talented.

[488] You had to be able to design and program, which was very hard.

[489] We don't longer require that.

[490] But they were also very independent.

[491] We were not known for being particularly reliable at the time.

[492] Because we sort of just work on what we wanted to work on.

[493] Until it happened to be done whenever it was done.

[494] Yeah.

[495] And we had the power to do that because if you could build it, you know, you could just build it.

[496] And I was so excited to finally get into this place that I had a strong desire to, I guess, please, I have that in general.

[497] And so I was very reliable.

[498] So I think part of what helped me, at least early on in my career within the company was like I was the reliable one.

[499] And they were like, what is this?

[500] And had some service industry bedside manner that probably many of them lacked.

[501] That is definitely fair.

[502] Yeah.

[503] I'm going to ask about another stereotype, which is also I have some stereotype of a large number of programmers being somewhere on the spectrum.

[504] That, like, what you and I are doing right now could be hard for them.

[505] That has some merit.

[506] I mean, look, there's all sorts of biases that you might have that will lead you into different types of careers.

[507] But those as psychics, are hard to sort of reverse engineer.

[508] or, you know, just guess about, when you program, everything is very organized.

[509] It's, well, it's overstating things, but you're aspiring for a very simple, elegant system.

[510] And the focus is on creating that elegance or creating that structure, that stability, that reliability.

[511] Life is not organized.

[512] Life is very chaotic.

[513] Well, yeah, which is probably why you're drawn to.

[514] Yeah.

[515] Like this conversation, you know, we'll, like, we'll riff, we'll go over here.

[516] Then we're like, oh, that thing from two times ago.

[517] I didn't even know when we started this thing.

[518] Yeah.

[519] So that is very different than programming.

[520] So I think that would be hard.

[521] Yeah.

[522] I mean, at the end of the day, it's binary, right?

[523] I mean, you are dealing with these two elements.

[524] It aspires to be.

[525] Yeah.

[526] It ends up getting much messier than people think, but it aspires to be.

[527] Right.

[528] So once you're there, you get put in charge of the mobile app.

[529] Eventually, yeah.

[530] I was a designer, a design manager, and then I ended up being the design director for mobile.

[531] Okay.

[532] And so I was in charge of the design for the mobile app.

[533] Right.

[534] So was that kind of the dream assignment to get there, knowing that that's where all the growth was?

[535] I wasn't that savvy.

[536] We used to not be organized.

[537] So there were three design managers before I got that job.

[538] I was one of three.

[539] And we all managed maybe 10 to 15 people who did just completely unrelated things.

[540] And then one day they just reorged the company into sort of these business functions.

[541] So like mobile became a thing.

[542] Right.

[543] And so they were like, okay, you're now the mobile guy.

[544] And this is your new boss.

[545] And I remember talking to the other design managers on, Friday because we had these ominous meeting scheduled first thing on Monday morning.

[546] We're like, what's this about?

[547] And they're like, well, we know they're not reorganizing the company because they would have told us that.

[548] Right, right.

[549] That was the one thing.

[550] Yeah, that's the one thing.

[551] That's like literally what we said on that.

[552] What happened was, so we had a project called Facebook Home, which was a spectacular failure, but we learned a lot from.

[553] And I got involved in that a couple months prior to this because there was a really problematic set of relationships between the designers and the rest of the team.

[554] And so my boss was.

[555] like, you know, go in and help clean it up.

[556] And I was like, that looks like a shit show.

[557] And she's like, just do it for a couple months, fix it.

[558] And then you can move out.

[559] It'll be totally fine.

[560] And then two months later, they reorg and they're like, now you're the mobile guy.

[561] And so I was mostly just trying to figure out how to be decent in my job.

[562] Right.

[563] Now, did you have a lot of FaceTime with Zuckerberg?

[564] Then, now both.

[565] Yeah, I think so.

[566] Back then it was more design reviews.

[567] So my team or I was still for a while.

[568] designing things myself would go in and present designs and get feedback.

[569] Now, Zuckerberg, to me, is an elusive character in that I, my really, my only impressions of him are based on social network, great film, can't imagine, can't imagine it really bears any resemblance to him.

[570] And then the Senate hearings that I see pop up.

[571] And I see someone rightfully so in like a panic mode.

[572] So I'm like, I don't have a sense of who he is.

[573] In the same way, I argue that I hadn't really gotten a sense of.

[574] of who Bill Gates was until this Netflix documentary.

[575] And then I'm like, oh, I think, is it good?

[576] Oh, well, it's phenomenal.

[577] And I think he's my favorite person in the world.

[578] And I think people should only donate money to him because he's the only person that has the power to solve these problems.

[579] Big statements.

[580] Huge statement.

[581] Favorite human?

[582] I'll stand by.

[583] All money goes to that guy.

[584] That's right.

[585] Give him all the money.

[586] He drinks 13, 14 Diet Coke an hour, which I love.

[587] I used to do that.

[588] Yeah.

[589] Yeah, I'm still putting back five or six a day.

[590] I'm like, all the smartest guy in the world's doing it.

[591] How way I could have really...

[592] Exactly.

[593] Zuckerberg, I have no clue what kind of guy that is.

[594] And so I'm just interesting from someone that's been on the inside.

[595] How would you describe him?

[596] A couple different ways.

[597] I mean, Mark is, I think, naturally more of an introvert than an extrovert, which is part of why you don't always see his personality as much.

[598] He's incredibly thoughtful.

[599] He thinks very long term.

[600] So, for instance, often he'll know that a decision he's making or we're making is going to like receive some backlash but if he thinks it's the right thing over the long run he'll just think about the long run he cares a lot for him this is his legacy right oh yeah you know he's two daughters I think he thinks a lot about what they will think of the work not now not in five years but like 50 years yeah does he love McDonald's he does love McDonald's okay great this was the thing I loved early on about Bill Gates is he couldn't stay out of the Wendy's drive -thru he loved Wendy's.

[601] He loves McDonald's.

[602] Oh, great.

[603] That was such a wild gas.

[604] Yeah, no, you're right.

[605] And his wife's a doctor.

[606] So, you know, I've definitely been to McDonald's with Mark, you know, when, like, she wasn't around kind of stuff.

[607] She's amazing, actually.

[608] Silla is an amazing human being.

[609] She runs the CZI, so the Translikeburg Initiative, but she also runs a school.

[610] She does a bunch of things.

[611] I meet a lot of people who have a lot of money or power, just by the nature of my role.

[612] Yeah.

[613] She's the most grounded person.

[614] I've ever met given what she does in the world.

[615] This has nothing to do with anything, but McDonald's made me think of it.

[616] So do you use postmates or DoorDash?

[617] Sometimes.

[618] Okay.

[619] So my wife and I's account is hooked up, right?

[620] So like I'll get a text.

[621] I'm at work.

[622] It's like your food's there and I'm trying to call her, blah, blah, blah.

[623] So she was out of town and she calls me, and this is before I realized that we could read each other's shit.

[624] And she goes, who did you have over last night to eat McDonald's at 10 o 'clock at night?

[625] And I go.

[626] nobody what I didn't have anyone over to eat McDonald's and she goes but there's two Big Mac value meals and a 20 piece chicken nugget and I was like yeah hon you're out of town and I'll just fucking I'll try my I'll have a goal of spending $25 on McDonald's 25 does that even get you there I think so yeah I didn't even get that order for 25 bucks delivered to your door a couple fries extra fries It's extra large.

[627] And I get those Big Macs.

[628] Big Diet Coke.

[629] Yeah, huge Diet Coke.

[630] I get the Big Mac.

[631] Extra cheese, extra sauce.

[632] Boy, does that am things up.

[633] Yeah.

[634] I really recommend your next trip with Zuckerberg.

[635] Blow his fucking mine with that order.

[636] You'll be running Facebook if you do that.

[637] I'd be like, listen, we've got to try to spend $25.

[638] Jack said it's possible to eat $25 with the McDonald's.

[639] Okay, so while you're there, you also end up being in charge of the news feed, right?

[640] I did.

[641] I want to admit the fact that I've never used Facebook.

[642] It's one of the things.

[643] I've missed out on.

[644] So a lot of this stuff, I know that you've done is a little bit abstract to me. Have you ever used Facebook?

[645] Oh, yeah.

[646] I joined the second year, I think, Facebook.

[647] Oh, you're early.

[648] I was early.

[649] It's like 06?

[650] I was 05.

[651] Oh, really early.

[652] Yeah.

[653] Yeah, it was so fun to be on the brink of something.

[654] And what would you spend your time doing looking at boys from high school?

[655] It was only colleges then.

[656] It was only college.

[657] Yeah.

[658] Yeah, so it was just like you met someone like in the cafeteria or whatever it was called.

[659] What were they called in college?

[660] Dining hall, dining hall.

[661] That's where you mainly met people, the dining hall.

[662] Yeah, McDonald's dining hall.

[663] And then you'd find each other on Facebook and then you'd be connected.

[664] It was fun.

[665] I'm the line.

[666] I joined for like two weeks once, eight, ten years ago.

[667] It wasn't for you.

[668] I looked at everyone from my junior high.

[669] That's all I just want to see how everyone looked.

[670] How do they all look?

[671] Well, it forced me to confront the fact that I too must look the exact same.

[672] We're all contemporaries.

[673] And I was like, I don't feel good just looking at this.

[674] I don't like it.

[675] We're all full -blown adults, and I don't like being reminded of that.

[676] Yeah.

[677] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[678] We've all been there.

[679] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[680] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[681] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[682] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[683] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[684] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[685] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[686] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon Music.

[687] What's up, guys?

[688] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[689] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[690] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[691] And I don't mean just friends.

[692] I mean the likes of Amy Puck.

[693] Holder, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[694] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[695] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[696] So back to the news feed.

[697] Okay.

[698] You're in charge of the news feed.

[699] That was my job for a couple years.

[700] Okay, now some things happen in rapid succession, right?

[701] So there's the 16 election.

[702] Yep.

[703] And then there's the 2018 Cambridge Analytic scandal.

[704] Yeah, Cambridge Analytica.

[705] Analytica, thank you.

[706] And you were appointed like a spokesperson to address.

[707] this new topic of fake news.

[708] Yeah, appointed is not quite what happened.

[709] I just started talking more.

[710] You self -appointed, I think, is the turn.

[711] I mean, I always thought that we should talk, I mean, so the 2016 U .S. presidential election in Cambridge Analytica, you know, sort of like, you know, big moments for us for obvious reasons.

[712] But just broadly speaking, even before those, I always was worried that people are always afraid of what they can't understand.

[713] Of course, most people don't know how, you know, ranking works for newsfeed.

[714] So I was always trying to explain how ranking worked as much as possible.

[715] Most importantly to the consumer, to average people, but also, you know, to publishers.

[716] But the reason why you had to talk to the company is, you know, we've got partnerships people all over the world.

[717] We don't train them on how newsfeed ranking works.

[718] A publisher asks them a question.

[719] They are handwavy and vague because they don't know.

[720] And then we get accused of being handwavy and vague and we act surprised.

[721] So I was like, okay, well, let's talk to them directly.

[722] you know, I started traveling a lot more, try to simplify how things works and explain them.

[723] So I could do it, but they could do it too.

[724] So the rankings, they're driven by how much people are clicking on a given article and that moves it up in the priority in which you would see it.

[725] Is that how it works?

[726] Essentially, what's happening is so for most people on Instagram and on Facebook and on other platforms, there's far more that they could see than they have time to see or they will see.

[727] Right.

[728] The idea is you're trying to make the most of people's time by ordering things roughly based on how interested you guess that they are.

[729] Right.

[730] And so that's sort of the idea.

[731] In practice, people talk a lot about ranking and AI and machine learning and all these technical terms.

[732] But really, what all of this type of technology is almost always trying to do is just make a prediction.

[733] How likely is something to happen?

[734] Yeah.

[735] And the way they do it is to try to predict what you're going to interact with.

[736] So if you open up Instagram, we look at all this post, the images you could see.

[737] and then we predict for each one how likely you are to like it, how likely you are to comment on it, how like you are to send it in a message.

[738] And then we use those likelihoods to basically create a number that is how interested we think you are in that post.

[739] recency is super important.

[740] So you're much more likely to be interested in something from today than from a year ago.

[741] So things are loosely but not strictly chronological because we order by those scores.

[742] Right.

[743] Okay.

[744] Man, what a treasure trove of topics.

[745] Sorry, I just threw up a little.

[746] No, I love it.

[747] I love it.

[748] because I immediately think of a couple things.

[749] A, I like that I'm getting a filtered thing that I will be interested in.

[750] I like that I don't have to wade through a bunch of stuff I'm not interested in to find the things I'm interested in.

[751] And then, of course, I immediately go, yeah, but I'm a creature of habit and I don't know that I need a system that reinforces my creature of habitness.

[752] And how will I ever discover something new?

[753] How will I learn?

[754] How will I grow?

[755] I will just be given the thing I wanted yesterday or historically.

[756] And then where does the growth come in?

[757] Yeah, that's a big risk.

[758] Yeah.

[759] So what are your thoughts on that?

[760] So there's different things you can do.

[761] So on Instagram, for instance, people spend a lot of time in feed, but they also spend a lot of time in explore.

[762] And explore, the second tab is hopefully where you discover new things that you might be interested in.

[763] And it might take, honestly, is that feed moves too slowly.

[764] It doesn't adapt as quickly as your interests to adapt.

[765] And Explorer is super tippy.

[766] So, you know, I'll go and do a partnership's dinner.

[767] I meet a bunch of, like, beauty creators.

[768] So I'll follow them so we can talk later.

[769] And then all of a sudden, when I explore, just be like, all boy makeup.

[770] Uh -huh.

[771] And I'd be like, that's cool, but, you know, it's like, just follow two people.

[772] Like, yeah, yeah.

[773] So I actually think feed is probably moves too slow, doesn't do enough to help you learn about new things.

[774] So we do try to do some stuff there.

[775] And explore is actually a little bit too.

[776] Tippy is the word I usually use, but like it overreacts.

[777] Right.

[778] Whereas on Facebook, one of the things we do is when you've, meet someone new when you become friends with them.

[779] We try to give them the benefit of the doubt because we don't really know because you haven't interacted with them before.

[780] So we try to make sure that like, you know, new things get a fair shot.

[781] So you don't just keep seeing the same things over and over again.

[782] Well, because that's, I guess, what people have been critical of myself in particular is how you do end up getting siloed into your point of view, right?

[783] And you're being given news that supports your point of view and you're probably not receiving contrary news that might challenge your point of view.

[784] do you think that's real and do you think that's an issue and how do you address that?

[785] I think it's real.

[786] I think it's an issue.

[787] I think it's much bigger than Instagram or anyone platform.

[788] Filter bubbles are real because we select like -minded people to be friends with.

[789] We select like -minded publications to follow.

[790] That's just human nature.

[791] Yeah, we're making that decision.

[792] Yeah.

[793] Right.

[794] Well, so much of this stuff is chicken or the egg, right?

[795] Yeah, but just to be clear, I'm not saying that there isn't an issue or there isn't anything to do about it.

[796] It's just a bit complicated.

[797] So, you know, I don't know, you know, you have your political leanings.

[798] Yeah.

[799] Probably.

[800] Most of your friends are probably also generally liberal, if not quite liberal.

[801] Quite, yes.

[802] You know, I'm being gentle.

[803] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[804] What publications do you read?

[805] I recently subscribed in the New York Times, which I'm enjoying immensely.

[806] You're great.

[807] And then I rarely watch news on TV.

[808] But if I do, like if there's a debate and then there's going to be coverage of it, I'm going to go to CNN.

[809] But when I travel, as a high.

[810] hobby, I watch Fox News almost exclusively.

[811] That's, so most people don't do that kind of thing.

[812] Right.

[813] But I do think that is healthy.

[814] I do too.

[815] And you know what's funny is the first day on vacation, you know, on a trip, like I'm about to travel for 12 days for work and I'm going to watch Fox News a ton.

[816] I guarantee you the first two days it'll sound insane to me. Yeah.

[817] And then like day three.

[818] Normalized.

[819] Yeah, it's a little bit normalized.

[820] And then I like to think I'm self -aware enough to realize the exact same things happen to me on CNN.

[821] You know, like, I don't think one has a monopoly on that.

[822] Yeah.

[823] I mean, so for us, what we want to make sure is that we are not exacerbating that problem.

[824] Right.

[825] And to the degree that we can push against that we do so in a way that's responsible given our scale.

[826] I don't think it's a good idea for us to just insert content that you disagree with in your feed proactively and be like, here's your broccoli, you know?

[827] Yeah.

[828] Because, well, one, it's, I don't think our place, but two, a lot of the research suggests that that can backfire.

[829] So you have to be thoughtful about what you're trying to optimize for?

[830] Are you trying to just get people more information?

[831] Are you trying to get people to be more open -minded?

[832] Are you trying to have people be less polarized?

[833] Yes, so great.

[834] So we're getting into some really heightened philosophical debates about all of this technology, which is, yeah, do I want Mark Zuckerberg ultimately making a decision for one billion people about whether they should be challenged on their views or I personally think open -mindedness would be a virtue that, yes, should be explored and supported.

[835] But that's me. That's the thing I've prioritize.

[836] I'm sure there's half the people listening are like, no, that's not the number one virtue or priority.

[837] So therein lies the issue.

[838] And yet you get into all these amazing complicated things, which is it is a company.

[839] It's not a government institution.

[840] So in many ways, they don't have any obligation that a lot of people are asking them to have.

[841] So I'll often be defending Facebook and critical of Facebook at the same time.

[842] I feel like that.

[843] You feel like that too?

[844] I mean, look, I think given our scale, we have a lot of responsibility.

[845] I think our responsibility is to like definitely create value for people who use us, but also to be honest and transparent about how we do what we do, what's working and what's not.

[846] I think we do a lot in the name of transparency.

[847] We're late.

[848] I think we should have done a lot more, a lot earlier.

[849] I think we also have responsibility to do what we can to keep people safe.

[850] Again, I think we relate to that, but I think we're investing an immense amount right now.

[851] I think that's good too.

[852] Polarization though is I just think one of the most complicated issues because polarization has been increasing, at least in this country, for 50, 60 years.

[853] At least as far back as the data I've been able to find.

[854] And some of the most polarized people are actually the oldest people and the country and who don't use, not just social media, they don't use technology as much.

[855] That's not to say that there aren't issues.

[856] I'm sure there are people who get into, you know, reinforcement loops about some crazy beliefs on one side or the other on Facebook or Instagram.

[857] I'm sure that happens.

[858] But if you take a big step back, this thing is bigger.

[859] And it has to do with, you know, if you only watch one news source all day long, you're going to just fall into that pattern.

[860] So, yeah, there's like so many factors.

[861] And I think a lot of people are pointing a finger singularly at Facebook, but you have to recognize that news in general got nationalized 30 years ago with cable news.

[862] So it used to be that the majority of the news you watched was your city's news or your state news, right?

[863] So there was this implicit in -group about the news you were watching.

[864] But now it's the whole nation.

[865] So this in -group, out -group thing is very complicated in that scenario.

[866] And identity is very complicated.

[867] So now you have these markers for identity that people are grabbing onto their left or their right or they're progressive or they're conservative or whatever.

[868] But it's been so exacerbated by this national never -ending news coverage of the nation.

[869] And it doesn't lend itself to feeling included all that well.

[870] And then, of course, you have then Facebook on top of that.

[871] And then you have all these other platforms that are used.

[872] useful in divisiveness as well as very useful in inclusion.

[873] Yeah, I mean, it's always great.

[874] That's the thing.

[875] So look, we live in a world where there is little to no space for nuance.

[876] It is not lost on me that social media has contributed to that world.

[877] Yeah.

[878] That is tough given that, you know, everything has pros and cons.

[879] For us, I feel like our responsibility is to maximize the positive that comes from our platforms and minimize the downside.

[880] Yeah.

[881] You know, but news generally is going to be critical.

[882] It's going to be political, going to be somewhat divisive.

[883] That doesn't mean that news is invaluable.

[884] I don't think it's as valuable as people think.

[885] Well, it depends.

[886] I just feel like what kind of news?

[887] I don't know it's that valuable to know that like something terrible happened at a local high school.

[888] Exactly.

[889] All day, every day.

[890] I think that everyone was doing just fine when they were getting some bad news a half an hour a night on the evening news.

[891] But now that it's a 24 -hour news cycle that they've got to shovel drama into, we've become addicted to the distraction of the drama.

[892] Yeah, I think yes and no, though, because you do need to know the scale of what's happening out there if school shootings have increased by 30 % in the last five years.

[893] I mean, that's totally made up.

[894] Probably 5 ,000 % but yeah.

[895] Yeah, exactly.

[896] Then we do need to know, oh, this is an issue that's getting worse.

[897] What can we do legislatively to combat some of that?

[898] But that's a really interesting point because I agree with it.

[899] But, like, on that specific example, there are way more people who die from shootings that are not school shootings and don't get covered.

[900] For sure.

[901] And so the actual, the coverage does not mirror the state of, like, gun violence, at least in this country.

[902] Nor does it mirror probability.

[903] If you just wanted to prioritize in your life the things to keep you and your children safe, you would hit about 3 ,000 things before you got to, let's have a great school shooting plan.

[904] It just wouldn't be logical.

[905] You would prioritize diet and health.

[906] You would prioritize car safety.

[907] you would prioritize, you know, any number of things that account for tens of thousands of deaths a year in our country.

[908] Yeah.

[909] I don't know that it needs to be in either or, but.

[910] Well, we all have bandwidth, you know.

[911] They're probably better off trying to get their kid to not use plastic, let's say.

[912] It's disproportionate because it plays on our emotions and our fear.

[913] And it seems like, oh, my God, my kid's going to get shot.

[914] I can't think anything worse.

[915] Sure.

[916] It's traumatizing.

[917] It's going to have a heart attack is what's going to happen.

[918] Your kid's going to get cancer is what's going to happen.

[919] But it's tough for a bunch of different reasons.

[920] in the news industry obviously right now that the business models are all getting turned on their heads but the thing that we had in the middle of the 20th century which was essentially these like local monopolies or duoplies so you know every city had like one, two, maybe three newspapers and there was only a handful of cable channels basically this meant that each local news provider had essentially like a local sort of stranglehold on distribution used literally like trucks you had to drive pieces of paper around on trucks and throw them into people's yards so it's very hard anyone else to enter that allowed the news industry to not worry that much about competition.

[921] You know, do I have to make this thing super interesting because this other up -and -comers like coming my way, which allowed them to focus on whatever their values were.

[922] I don't think there's any such thing is really truly objective news and I think that's okay.

[923] But now that there's an explosion of competition, right?

[924] You said you started reading the New York Times that's certainly not written here.

[925] I read The Economist that's out of London.

[926] I read a tech blog out of Taiwan called Straiture.

[927] Ben Thompson, you know, that wasn't possible 50 years ago.

[928] Right.

[929] So and is a way more publishers because it's so much cheaper to produce and distribute.

[930] So this is an explosion of competition, then obviously the platforms as well.

[931] And then all of a sudden, the industry has to figure out, okay, what do you do in that world?

[932] Do you move to subscription -based model or do you stay in the ad -based model and do you compete?

[933] And if you compete, how do you keep your integrity?

[934] It's tough.

[935] Yeah, exactly.

[936] The period you just referenced also had to succumb to a market force that did, for force them to be more centrist.

[937] They were trying to appeal to the widest swath of readers in the Detroit metropolitan area.

[938] Yes.

[939] And so they weren't going to be far left or far right.

[940] They were going to shoot right up the middle.

[941] And they kind of put the news through a process that was basically tried to not be offensive, right?

[942] In some way.

[943] Yeah, they did.

[944] But other things happened too.

[945] They invested a lot in international coverage.

[946] International coverage is really expensive.

[947] Turns out people don't read it that much.

[948] They either didn't know that because they had no metrics or they knew it intuitively and didn't care because they're like, this is important.

[949] But news, as much as most industries I've interacted with are more than most.

[950] People get involved in it based on like a mission.

[951] They believe it's important to have an informed electorate.

[952] And so, and I think that sort of half century, which by the way is an anomaly, if you look at news over the last three, 400 years, allowed them to lean more into that sort of mission -driven mentality and now it's more competition driven and then it's like you know what's your business model gets much more complicated.

[953] When we had Ezra on, Azar Klein, he was saying, you know, a downside to that sort of centrist paper is that it's mainly just news for the hegemonic group and that's it.

[954] Like you're not seeing much about anyone on the periphery.

[955] Right.

[956] You're not delving into any of those things.

[957] So that's a wonderful thing about all these fragments is that you, you, you, you, get exposure to a lot.

[958] Exactly.

[959] Yeah, it's a good point.

[960] Now, here's an area where I tend to defend Facebook and all these other internet companies, which is like, people are shocked and offended that they're not paying for something yet their info was sold.

[961] And that to me seems highly hypocritical and a little bit like, it's just bullshit.

[962] Well, you're not going to get something completely for free that costs billions of dollars to put out there and not think that the other side of that equation has to fund the whole thing and profit from it.

[963] either pay for the shit you want or if you're not going to pay for it you want it for free guess what they're going to fucking sell your info well a couple different things one i would do want to clarify that that we don't sell info but we definitely make money based on knowing things about people so i don't want to clarify that well didn't the how was the info not sold to cambridge analytica uh yeah cambridge analytics car look at you remember really all right cambridge and let it go and then we should talk about free access because i actually think one of the things people miss about Facebook, not as just that it's free and Instagram that it's free, but also we subsidize access to these tools and most of the world based on making most of our money from richer countries.

[964] So it's very, very progressive as a business model.

[965] But to Cambridge Analytica, what happened was we launched a platform, like I mentioned that before, and the platform allowed developers, so people who make apps, programs, websites, to build apps on top of Facebook.

[966] To do that, you had to have access to some Facebook data.

[967] So what we did is, okay cool you want to you know build a music app i built a music app called boombox you have to ask people for some access to their data for me i just didn't need much i needed your name your email some unique identifier so i knew like you were this atom oseri not that atom oseri etc and during this period that people completely i think forget about the biggest criticism of us back then was that we were this walled garden quote unquote we didn't share enough we didn't allow other apps to come and other businesses to grow.

[968] And so we built this platform and yes, it wasn't purely, you know, altruistic.

[969] It was also about, okay, we can't build everything ourselves, we should allow other people to build on top that'll be good for them and for us.

[970] And so Cambridge Analytica was a company that really, I think, is a sham and a bunch of different reasons.

[971] But what happened was someone built an app.

[972] Oh, no, I wish I could remember the name of the app.

[973] But it was like, you know, what kind of X are you type of quiz?

[974] Remember all those quizzes that went around?

[975] Yeah.

[976] That app developer built a quiz.

[977] That quiz asked people for their data.

[978] And one of the things that you could share back then, which was a mistake on our parts, because we made a series of mistakes I want to own, was you could share a little bit of information about your friends.

[979] So you could say, like, okay, my name is Adam, and here are my friends and here are their names.

[980] So snitch app.

[981] And so...

[982] Snitches get stitches.

[983] Yeah.

[984] The reason why we did that at the time is that is actually the most valuable data in a lot of ways that Facebook has.

[985] And that is super important for bootstrapping other apps.

[986] So if you are, you know, another network, it's really useful to be like, okay, who are you and who are your friends?

[987] And we can let you know which of your friends are also using our service.

[988] So they're very legitimate use cases.

[989] The issue is once you hand that data over to that developer, that data is in that developer's hands.

[990] Yeah.

[991] And we had a strict policy against selling that data.

[992] It's actually just bad for Facebook for that data to get sold because then, you know, we're sort of like disintermediated.

[993] But we can't properly enforce because we can't.

[994] literally track your computers, what you're doing, et cetera.

[995] That developer sold the data to Cambridge Analytica, which was a, for lack of a more apt label, like a consulting firm that tried to help political ad targeting and collected data about people.

[996] Okay, so that happened.

[997] We realized, actually, I think in 2015, that it was too risky to allow people to share even a little bit of data about their friends.

[998] So we actually shut that off in 2015.

[999] We had a press cycle about this, I think in 2015 that was really short.

[1000] Yeah, that's not a big headline grabber.

[1001] It wasn't.

[1002] We're about Cambridge Analytica, specifically.

[1003] Oh, okay.

[1004] In that quiz.

[1005] Then fast forward a couple years later, Trump gets elected.

[1006] Everyone is surprised.

[1007] Everyone is polarized.

[1008] It's an intense moment in this country.

[1009] And it comes out again.

[1010] It's this perfect combination of Trump and Russia and Facebook.

[1011] Yeah, the left is looking for somewhere to place blame in their ire.

[1012] And I don't want to be dismissive here because I think, so both on Cambridge Analytica and broadly, we made mistakes.

[1013] Allowing people to actually share data about their friends is like too risky.

[1014] We shouldn't have done that.

[1015] You know, we should have been better at actually figuring out how to do enforcement, you know, and retroactively.

[1016] We should have done more proactive investigations.

[1017] A bunch of mistakes were made.

[1018] The bigger mistake made, though, really isn't anything specific.

[1019] It is when you start out as a company, like when I joined, even though we were big, you're still just trying to make it, right?

[1020] You're worried about Myspace crushing us.

[1021] Yeah.

[1022] At some point you get big enough where you need to care a lot more about the, you're downsides of what you do about safety and integrity issues is what we call them internally.

[1023] And I think we were years late to investing properly given the amount of responsibility we had.

[1024] And I think that we actually invest way more than pretty much anyone else at this point.

[1025] So I think anybody who says that we don't care is not actually looking at what we actually do, but we were late.

[1026] So we made mistakes not only with platform, which ended up blowing up in our faces with Cambridge Analytica years later, long after it wasn't even possible to do that kind of thing anymore.

[1027] Well, I do think it's a very human condition.

[1028] Our focus is so lazered on to where we want to go that we're not really taking stock of where we're at and what responsibility that comes with that.

[1029] Yeah, and we're people.

[1030] I think people always kind of forget that.

[1031] They're like, oh, man, there's people who work there.

[1032] That was a thing for a while.

[1033] They're like, oh, people worked there.

[1034] I thought it was just like Mark on a website.

[1035] But look, I think we were late.

[1036] And I think we have to own that we were late.

[1037] There's no way around that.

[1038] Okay, so let's go to Instagram.

[1039] Because what I want to say right out of the gates, increasingly Instagram is the only place I desire to be because I don't know how it happened.

[1040] I hope you have an explanation, but broadly speaking, if I go on Twitter, I post the same exact image or the same exact thing announcing an episode, whatever, you know, on Twitter, it's going to be about 40 % just negative, fucking dark, cancerous comments.

[1041] on Instagram for me it's literally like 99 .5 % positive and I have some theories on it and I'm just curious if A you guys must be aware of that right it's a far more positive app yes I do think it varies a lot by sort of culture and country but I do think the decisions you make about the core ways in which an app works end up really affecting the emotional charge of the experience later so for For instance, Twitter, I use a lot.

[1042] I'm a big fan of Twitter.

[1043] Twitter is, I think, really designed for debate.

[1044] Right.

[1045] Debate is actually really important to our conversation before.

[1046] Like, there's pros and cons.

[1047] Yeah.

[1048] It's also very well designed for news.

[1049] Journalists love Twitter.

[1050] They live on Twitter.

[1051] And so that's good.

[1052] It's good for debate.

[1053] It's good for news.

[1054] But news and debate are going to naturally be more critical by nature and have more of a negative charge.

[1055] Instagram is sort of the other end of the spectrum.

[1056] It's visual first.

[1057] we don't actually focus a lot on comments and back and forth, which, by the way, has trade -offs.

[1058] There's missed opportunity there.

[1059] But it's focused on, like, visual expression, people telling their stories.

[1060] And that naturally has more of a positive charge.

[1061] That doesn't mean there's a negativity on Instagram or positivity on Twitter.

[1062] It's just naturally overall you see these broad trends.

[1063] Facebook, actually, interestingly enough, is somewhere in the middle.

[1064] Actually, another big thing on Instagram is we don't allow really links.

[1065] We get yelled at this all the time.

[1066] If you allow links, it's going to massively change.

[1067] the vibe or the energy because you're going to end up with a bunch of news and a bunch of publisher content in a way that I think is valuable but you know Twitter does that well Facebook does that pretty well we don't need to do that we want to be something different right and we don't allow the ability to like reshare from feedback into feed which is like retweets on on Twitter or shares on Facebook which is how things go viral usually yeah I have to use that outside app repost if I want to repost and the people screenshots They do use reposts, all these things.

[1068] So it's not like it doesn't happen, but because we don't support it first class, it happens a way less.

[1069] Again, there'd be value in supporting that.

[1070] But again, it would also massively change the energy and the experience.

[1071] And we are trying to be different.

[1072] Not because one is better than the other, but because, you know, every major platform should probably differentiate because otherwise, why go do it?

[1073] Yeah.

[1074] And I think Instagram, just implicitly, you're not going to like take a picture of this fucked up burrito you got you're not going to take time to take a picture of you know an ugly landscape it's just not the nature of what we do so it's almost starting with i saw something i loved visually and now i'm sharing it with you and so it's coming immediately from i like this and so everyone that wants to engage in that presumably also likes that or was more likely to have also liked it.

[1075] So I think there's something implicitly positive about sharing a photo versus I hate Trump.

[1076] Great.

[1077] Trump, whatever, fucking hashtag Trump.

[1078] And now I have this whole group of people who hates Trump.

[1079] And okay, now what?

[1080] I just think by its inception, it's a little bit.

[1081] It lends itself much more to just positivity.

[1082] I agree.

[1083] I think the downstream sort of effects of being a visual communication, you're going to take a picture of something because it's beautiful or because, you know, or are you going to share something that you aspire to be like?

[1084] There's downsides, right?

[1085] Like, people criticize us a lot around, you know, pressure to be perfect.

[1086] Well, we're going to get there.

[1087] And so there's, again, pros and cons of these things.

[1088] But I think, yes, because Instagram is visual almost exclusively, I think that it is also affecting the emotional charge of the experience.

[1089] Yeah.

[1090] I also think a distinction between Twitter and Instagram is, Instagram is what you're doing, and Twitter's what you're thinking.

[1091] And I think in general, people define themselves far more about what they're thinking than what they're doing, which is a pet peeve of mine.

[1092] You're not, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm this, I'm liberal, or I'm conservative, or I'm this, or I don't agree with that.

[1093] Like, these are just thoughts.

[1094] Where do you go?

[1095] What is your day like?

[1096] What do you physically do?

[1097] Where did you eat?

[1098] What vacation did you take?

[1099] These are real actions.

[1100] These are things people are doing, not thinking.

[1101] And so I think there's something there, too.

[1102] That's really interesting.

[1103] Can I have a position at Instagram?

[1104] Yeah, sure.

[1105] What do you want to do?

[1106] I don't know.

[1107] Just talk.

[1108] That's what I do.

[1109] Oh, great.

[1110] And I'll be a perfect match there.

[1111] Yeah, nice.

[1112] We can just hang out all day.

[1113] Yeah, I mean, all these different platforms do lots of different things.

[1114] And I feel like we all get a little lost in that complexity.

[1115] But it's one of the reasons why I try to, like, do things like this, like get out there and meet people who are outside of our weird little bubble in Silicon Valley.

[1116] I think people look at an app and they think of it like, it's like, it's like, it's one of it.

[1117] like, what does this app do, right?

[1118] So, like, you know, DoorDash is, like, the Food Now button.

[1119] And, like, Google Maps is the, like, directions button.

[1120] You know, what is Instagram, what is Twitter?

[1121] If Instagram is, like, you know, tell a story about what you do.

[1122] And Twitter is tell a story about what you think.

[1123] That's probably not true for everyone, but that's probably true for a lot of people.

[1124] So I think that's the kind of thing that we wouldn't usually think of on our side.

[1125] Now, if Instagram had a mission statement, what do you think it would be?

[1126] Or is there one?

[1127] There is one.

[1128] It's to bring you closer to the people and the things you love.

[1129] Oh, okay.

[1130] I like that.

[1131] How does Instagram compare user -wise to these other well -known platforms?

[1132] We're smaller than Facebook.

[1133] Okay.

[1134] We are bigger than Twitter.

[1135] By what factor?

[1136] I don't think Twitter's last public numbers are somewhere close to around 400 million active users and we're over a billion.

[1137] Oh, okay.

[1138] But you lose a lot in the averages.

[1139] This is the thing that I think is important for more people.

[1140] At, you know, Instagram and also Facebook to understand is like, you know, it varies a ton.

[1141] You know, Japan is completely different than the U .S. Uh -huh.

[1142] For instance, in Japan, Twitter is huge.

[1143] And Facebook isn't doing as well.

[1144] And actually, Instagram is very quickly growing.

[1145] And so everything is sort of inverted.

[1146] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[1147] Is Facebook still in America number one in social media?

[1148] Because I feel like people are using it less and less.

[1149] But I think we're in a bubble.

[1150] We're in a bubble.

[1151] Are we?

[1152] I think you're like, well, it also depends on how you define social media.

[1153] Because we are more and more interested in messaging.

[1154] And we're in a very weird country when it comes to messaging.

[1155] So most countries in the world have one messaging app that, you know, 90 -some -odd percent of people use.

[1156] And 90 -some -a -percent of them use every day.

[1157] Messaging meaning like what?

[1158] WhatsApp or?

[1159] Yeah.

[1160] So most of the world, it's WhatsApp.

[1161] In Japan, it's line.

[1162] In Korea, it's cacao talk.

[1163] There's maybe five countries where this isn't the case, and the U .S. is one of them.

[1164] So weird.

[1165] And so those apps often have, you know, stories or feed products built into them.

[1166] So, you know, WhatsApp has status.

[1167] Status is huge.

[1168] And no one knows that here because no one uses it in the States.

[1169] Lots of people use WhatsApp.

[1170] They don't use status as much.

[1171] Okay.

[1172] So, and how does the demographics skew?

[1173] We overindex on young people.

[1174] But again, you have to be careful with taking that too far.

[1175] because just because we over index on teens doesn't mean that we're majority teens.

[1176] We're not, right?

[1177] Teens are a small percentage of the population.

[1178] So even if you are...

[1179] Oh, they're disproportionately.

[1180] Okay, that's a good distinction.

[1181] So I like to think of us as, you know, sort of youth first, not youth only.

[1182] Mm -hmm.

[1183] And male -female?

[1184] Is there any skewing?

[1185] It depends a lot by country, but it's not a huge bias.

[1186] The other area where I think we do quite well is what we call creators.

[1187] I'm so public figures, influencers of different types.

[1188] And so I think we are one of those, stronger platforms with that group and that group has a lot of outsized impact and influence in the world okay so you're talking about like the i don't know chakira's and the who is the most followers on instagram probably christiano rinaldo i think he's the soccer player i think he's getting close to 200 million 200 million you've got you know a couple of Kardashians over 100 million you've got the rock probably 16 170 by this point i follow him he's great i can't get enough of watching him working out i know i love it and like telling his mom that he bought her a house and you have to watch it.

[1189] It's like, this is amazing.

[1190] Yeah, Shaquille O 'Neal, do you follow him?

[1191] Yeah, he's good.

[1192] He's a joy button.

[1193] He should have his own app and it's just joy.

[1194] This guy's dancing every day and learning raps.

[1195] He had a video on Facebook forever ago that I love, which was like, it was a donut and it was like some romantic music.

[1196] And it was him like trying not to eat the donut as he brought it closer to his mouth.

[1197] And I was like, this guy's amazing.

[1198] Well, you know what I'm noticing more and more because my wife is far more active on Instagram than I am.

[1199] Not looking at it.

[1200] I look at it, but I don't post much.

[1201] I am insecure.

[1202] I don't like looking at photos of myself, so I'm reluctant to post a bunch.

[1203] Now, we have started to notice some of these other actors.

[1204] Like, Kristen, whatever she does, she just films herself doing it.

[1205] Yeah.

[1206] We're noticing that there's production now in a lot of people's feeds.

[1207] Like, we'll check in another actors.

[1208] And they clearly have a fucking crew that's editing stuff.

[1209] And so you're seeing, like, that seems new to me. Like, you're actually seeing production value in these.

[1210] We are.

[1211] I do think in general, though, the content that works the best is the content.

[1212] that feels authentic.

[1213] In this world where we're inundated with information and produced information, stuff that sort of cuts through the bullshit, so to speak, and feels like a sneak peek or a look behind the curtain is the stuff that I think really resonates.

[1214] That's I think why, you know, the rock resonates your lot.

[1215] It's just like, this is just him with a camera.

[1216] Yeah.

[1217] And that's kind of great.

[1218] Will Smith, who's also a great follow.

[1219] Crushing.

[1220] Love his Instagram.

[1221] But his are produced.

[1222] I've noticed, like, his are, he's got someone filming him and someone editing him.

[1223] There's some special effects sometimes.

[1224] But I love it.

[1225] Well, I mean, you can produce and still be authentic.

[1226] Right.

[1227] But in general, I think one of the things to point out is most people, when they think of Instagram, think of feed.

[1228] But most of the growth in Instagram is in stories and in messaging.

[1229] And so stories.

[1230] What's messaging?

[1231] I know stories.

[1232] Just direct.

[1233] So you can message people.

[1234] DMs.

[1235] Slide into those DM.

[1236] You should see my DMs.

[1237] Oh, yeah.

[1238] It's just yelling.

[1239] It's like, give me a blue check mark.

[1240] But it is important to note, like, even the ones that, are quote, authentic, not produced, are produced in their brain.

[1241] It's not like they're just literally at any moment just pulling out a camera and just filming their day for 10 minutes.

[1242] This is the part of the day that I want to show.

[1243] You know, I just think that's important to say because I think people can think like, oh my God, this is their life.

[1244] Their life is so fun.

[1245] They do this.

[1246] She does this with the dogs all day.

[1247] You know.

[1248] Yeah.

[1249] It's the funniest three minutes of her.

[1250] day.

[1251] I do think it depends on the person, but yes, 100%.

[1252] There's a real strong selection bias.

[1253] You're deciding to share this with everyone.

[1254] That's not random.

[1255] It's not random 30 second bits from your day.

[1256] Exactly.

[1257] But I think that's also human, right?

[1258] Of course.

[1259] What I'm going to say, given that I'm being recorded with this mic two inches from my face, is a little bit different than, you know, if I was talking to my wife when I see her tomorrow night.

[1260] Yeah.

[1261] You know, that's just different.

[1262] And so I think that people are getting smarter about that.

[1263] And I think some people are also realizing on the production side that it is actually it resonates with people to be a bit more forthcoming to be a bit vulnerable to talk about something that's not just positive or talk about something negative.

[1264] But yes, it is not perfect reflection of reality.

[1265] It's a curated.

[1266] It's curated version of your life.

[1267] I do think stories gives you a little bit more insight into someone's life usually than feed.

[1268] If it's feedworthy, so to speak, it's usually like a big highlight.

[1269] Whereas a lot of people post all sorts of shit in the stories.

[1270] Yeah, that's true.

[1271] explain to us because I got an email, I guess through my publicist going like, oh, you're going to be a part of this new thing on Instagram where they're going to hide your likes.

[1272] That sounds like the solution to a problem I want to bring up and you already kind of touched on it, which is this comparison crisis that we all suffer.

[1273] This insatiable desire to compare ourselves at all times to other people, obviously this product amplifies that.

[1274] I mean, that's the concern.

[1275] We call this social comparison.

[1276] It's an issue that we're trying to still understand.

[1277] stance.

[1278] I don't want to pretend like we're experts.

[1279] I want to be really honest for what we know and what we don't know.

[1280] But in general, we do know that for a lot of people, particularly young people, is a real pressure to be perfect and a real tendency to compare yourself with other people.

[1281] You usually compare yourself with other people you know, not like the rock.

[1282] But I also want to be careful here because people, they talk about well -being.

[1283] We also talk about addiction a lot, but I want to be careful to divorce like, you know, clinical sort of definitions of these types of issues, and then just like broader everyday versions of these issues.

[1284] So I don't know at all that making like counts private, which is the thing that we're experimenting with.

[1285] So it's not removing likes.

[1286] It's just making it so that only you can see how many likes you got unless you want to go up and count up everyone's manually.

[1287] I don't know that that's going to be good for people's actual well -being.

[1288] Honestly, if you're talking about real well -being, medical well -being, it's about how long you live, how successful you're at the workplace.

[1289] Do you reproduce?

[1290] Like these are really important.

[1291] metrics, so to speak.

[1292] Sure.

[1293] Your diet, you're exercise.

[1294] And I don't think that making like counts on private is going to change your like longevity as a human.

[1295] But I do think that the pressure to be perfect is real, that the tendency to compare yourself is real.

[1296] And I want as much as I can to be, you know, helping as long as we're responsible in those areas.

[1297] And I also want people to feel good about the time that they spend on the platform.

[1298] And so it's good for people, but I think over the long run it'll be good for us, even if it's bad for revenue in the short term?

[1299] Well, I can immediately generate a hypothetical that seems highly plausible, which is you're 17 years old, you're a boy or a girl in high school, and you can see likes, and you see that Gloria posted a bikini picture, and she got 300 likes, and she posted a snowsuit outfit, and she got 12 likes.

[1300] That's informative.

[1301] If you're in the hunt for likes, that seems pretty A equals B. When you guys decided this, it had to.

[1302] be a response to that now was that the thing you were trying to what was the reason to try this the idea was to try and depressurize the experience so he spent a little bit less time worrying about or comparing like counts and a little bit more time connecting with the people that you care about or being inspired by the things that you love so that's one type of example another example that's i think one that's easier for us to quantify is we know that especially young people often post something and then if it doesn't get enough likes real right away archive it or delete it.

[1303] Oh, okay.

[1304] And that kind of feels like a bummer.

[1305] Like, can you imagine the moment as a 15 -year -old kid and you're just like, oh no, no one loves this?

[1306] And then you just take it down.

[1307] No one likes me. No one likes me. That's what they hear.

[1308] That's social rejection.

[1309] And if you don't have to worry that anybody can see how many likes you got, maybe you don't have that moment or maybe you have that moment less often.

[1310] Again, there's no silver bullets here and people always oversimplify these things.

[1311] Yeah.

[1312] But that was the intent.

[1313] And we're still iterating on different versions of it right now.

[1314] Okay, so one of my thoughts on Instagram, I've said this on here before, is in some weird way I do feel like, and this would I think probably be a negative aspect to it, is it's almost the natural end of capitalism.

[1315] Like, we now are the product and we now have ads for ourselves.

[1316] Like, now we're for sale and the economy is the like.

[1317] So that's the cash.

[1318] And so sometimes when I look at it, I go, oh, wow, capitalism really, it went all the way in.

[1319] Now everyone is a product they're selling.

[1320] Do you feel like that's true for the average, Joe or Jill, or do you think that's more for people or public figures or creators?

[1321] I think it's for the average person.

[1322] In that the images are curated, there's a distinct message that seems to be trying to be imbued onto the viewer.

[1323] There seems to be a consciousness to it that would be the same consciousness that any company would have in trying to display a product.

[1324] I think there's some truth there.

[1325] I think that, I mean, young people are really savvy.

[1326] A lot of young people have multiple Instagram accounts.

[1327] Oh, okay.

[1328] So you'll have your main account, which is often public, and then, you know, everybody knows about it and can follow, et cetera.

[1329] Then you'll have a Finsta, fake Insta.

[1330] Ooh, Finsta.

[1331] You knew that?

[1332] Of course.

[1333] Oh, wow.

[1334] I wish you had a bikini page and you just blurt your face out.

[1335] No, no. I'd love for you to do that experiment.

[1336] I'm not doing that.

[1337] Yeah, but you'd have a billion followers.

[1338] You'd pass the rock.

[1339] You'd be the number one.

[1340] That's just Monica up there up top.

[1341] The blurred face.

[1342] Well, no, for your anonymity, knucklehead.

[1343] What did you think?

[1344] You listen to the filter.

[1345] Your filter, I'm going to throw your filter in the trash.

[1346] It was so you could stay anonymous.

[1347] Sure, sure, sure, sure.

[1348] What was it?

[1349] I was listening to one of your podcasts recently.

[1350] I was talking about round features.

[1351] Oh, yeah.

[1352] We got a lot of conversations.

[1353] I love round features.

[1354] I love them.

[1355] I was talking to my wife.

[1356] I was like, well, looking at my wife's ass.

[1357] And I was like, this is how fucking simple.

[1358] a man is.

[1359] I just like that there's two circles in back.

[1360] Like that's how we're, literally, it's that simple.

[1361] There's circles in front and then there's circles and back.

[1362] And that's what's driving the world.

[1363] Guys like circles.

[1364] It's that basic.

[1365] And so the circular features, the round features that may hold on.

[1366] I can't comment on this.

[1367] Yeah, you got a job to protect.

[1368] I don't have.

[1369] I'm trying to get out of a couple jobs.

[1370] So there are two things that I think I read this somewhere that are universally considered attractive, because cultures have different obviously interest.

[1371] One is symmetry.

[1372] Yep.

[1373] And the other is sort of like the V shape of a man's back.

[1374] Oh, yeah.

[1375] Now, some of the cultures, it's good to be really big.

[1376] Sometimes it's really good to be really slight.

[1377] But the V shape is very consistent.

[1378] But right back to the rock.

[1379] All roads lead back to the rock.

[1380] That guy's a triangle.

[1381] Oh, boy.

[1382] Okay.

[1383] I have another juicy question for you.

[1384] The nipple gate.

[1385] Ooh.

[1386] Let's get into that a little bit.

[1387] So Instagram has been criticized for not allowing women to show their nipples, but men can show their nipples.

[1388] We have been.

[1389] Oh, I didn't know this.

[1390] And what are your thoughts on this?

[1391] So nudity is something that we don't allow on the platform.

[1392] I think one of the things is to make sure people realize is we have these what we call community guidelines.

[1393] So rules for what can and cannot be on the service.

[1394] And they're the same everywhere.

[1395] And so we're often accused of being too conservative in Brazil and too liberal in Iran and maybe somewhere in the middle.

[1396] Oh, they're globally.

[1397] They're global.

[1398] It's tough.

[1399] There's tradeoffs here.

[1400] There's always tradeoffs.

[1401] If you have a global definition, you end up being much better than forcing that policy.

[1402] And so you make many, many less mistakes.

[1403] And mistakes also piss people off.

[1404] And so you, you know, you build one set of guidelines, one set of raters, one set of classifiers, one set of, you know, escalation paths.

[1405] And you're going to be way more effective at finding and removing whatever it is that you're trying to find and remove.

[1406] If you fragment, you're going to be less good at it, but you can be more culturally, sensitive.

[1407] So it's tough.

[1408] Nudity is an interesting one because it's not like we have a strong opinion about nudity broadly.

[1409] It's actually that a small subset of nudity that we cannot strictly identify has safety implications.

[1410] And almost all of our community guidelines are about safety.

[1411] We generally want to allow people to express themselves.

[1412] We're about expression.

[1413] But we have to do what we can to keep people safe.

[1414] And the two things around safety with nudity are one, consent.

[1415] We cannot Verify Consent.

[1416] Yeah.

[1417] And Revenge Port is a real thing.

[1418] It does not happen very often, but it's incredibly problematic when it does happen.

[1419] And two is age.

[1420] We cannot verify age.

[1421] Because it's not only about your age.

[1422] It's about the age of who's in the photo.

[1423] And so for those reasons, we've taken a more conservative stance on the female nipple.

[1424] Those are really legit.

[1425] Very.

[1426] And I guess I just love nipples.

[1427] So every time I've seen free the nipple, I'm like, fuck, yeah, let's get those things on the scene.

[1428] You just think circles.

[1429] That's right.

[1430] A circle within a circle.

[1431] circle within a circle.

[1432] You've got the breast.

[1433] Monaco, let me break this down for you.

[1434] Okay.

[1435] You got the aerial.

[1436] That's a circle.

[1437] And then there's even a tinier circle.

[1438] It's just the dream set of circles.

[1439] Three circles.

[1440] Wow.

[1441] This is why we can't have nudity.

[1442] People like you.

[1443] Yeah.

[1444] That's right.

[1445] Okay.

[1446] So that's a really good defense of the nipple thing.

[1447] Yeah.

[1448] It's tough though.

[1449] I want to recognize that there's reasonable, like very defensible, you know, ways to express yourself that include the female nipple.

[1450] Art is a really easy example.

[1451] It's just not, worth the safety tradeoff for us.

[1452] Yeah.

[1453] How many photos are uploaded a day to Instagram?

[1454] A ton.

[1455] I mean, we don't probably announce the numbers.

[1456] The thing that people don't realize, actually, though, is there's way more shared in messages than in stories, and there's more in stories than in feed.

[1457] No shit.

[1458] For us.

[1459] On Instagram.

[1460] Yeah, because it's private.

[1461] So people can send dick picks on that.

[1462] You're not condoning it.

[1463] Just those messages aren't actually, I guess, monitored.

[1464] No, we are not as interested in enforcing nudity policies if two people are consensually sharing, you know, intimate images of each other.

[1465] Yeah.

[1466] I'm glad we got to this place.

[1467] Oh, my God.

[1468] Of course we did.

[1469] Of course we did.

[1470] The question I would ask you is so, so I have kids.

[1471] And for me, I recognize that I'm largely powerless over it.

[1472] Like, I know that the algorithm is better than me. I will sit on that toilet and I'll fucking zip through there.

[1473] And it is, it's like when I used to do drugs, it is just instantly and.

[1474] endlessly satisfying.

[1475] So I've thought, well, okay, I'm 45 and I have some world knowledge and I'm defenseless against it.

[1476] So I have a kind of unpopular thing at our house, which is they don't get any of that.

[1477] They're not allowed to touch our phones.

[1478] There's no iPads happening.

[1479] I'm like, I can't control myself.

[1480] How on earth can this unformed brain, you know, they're powerless over it.

[1481] How long do you, you're going to try to keep that up?

[1482] Until they run away and then I have to get them back by saving them a phone.

[1483] it's hopefully 18 you know as long as humanly possible i mean my stance is the world is enormous around you you should not reduce it to a four by six inch piece that's not where your focus should be very reasonable stance for a long time i think wait to your bored and married and all that stuff and accomplish a couple things then fucking go ahead i mean we're all just trying to spend time in a pleasurable way but there's a time for that and i don't think it's seven it's marriage yeah that's right so Yeah, what do you think about, you know, your own children?

[1484] You have, you have two and one on the way.

[1485] Yeah, they're very young, so they're not allowed on Instagram yet.

[1486] We do do screen time, but only as like a special treat.

[1487] And one of our rules is, so it's only on planes.

[1488] Right.

[1489] Because it's like survival.

[1490] Yeah, you got it.

[1491] I'll give them anything on an airplane.

[1492] I just need them to shut the fuck up.

[1493] I feel like you're not, as a parent now, I feel like it's like you just cannot judge other parents.

[1494] No, no, no, no. It's like, you know, are they, are they survived?

[1495] I think.

[1496] Good.

[1497] They're a great parent.

[1498] And then we will occasionally do like a movie night, but it's required that we watch with them.

[1499] So it can't turn into like a pacifier of sorts.

[1500] But they're very young.

[1501] They're four and two.

[1502] Right.

[1503] I can't imagine IG has a stance on what age kids should or be or not be on that.

[1504] Oh, we don't allow anyone under 13.

[1505] Okay.

[1506] So you do have a stance on that.

[1507] It's hard because you can't perfectly enforce because most 13 girls don't have IDs.

[1508] Right.

[1509] Or ID coverage, if you're talking about older ages, they vary a lot by different demographics or different countries, et cetera.

[1510] We do provide tools for people to report their kids and how they're taken down.

[1511] We also try and do our own investigations and use our own tools.

[1512] But, you know, it's not perfect and we're trying to get better.

[1513] Well, I just imagine the volume is so astronomical.

[1514] The volume is high, and the tradeoffs are tricky, right?

[1515] You know, if you're going to demand an ID from everyone, there's populations that have less IDs.

[1516] Well, it becomes like a voter ID thing.

[1517] Yeah, it does.

[1518] Yeah, disenfranchised population.

[1519] Yeah, very, you know, and then, you know, Instagram can create a lot of economic opportunity for a lot of people around the world.

[1520] And so, you know, we try to take that seriously.

[1521] But in general, we want people to feel good about the time that they spend on the platform.

[1522] I think about the two sides of this differently, sort of like what we talked about before.

[1523] There's one thing which I think is, there's like really excessive use or really problematic use.

[1524] Like you're using Instagram eight hours a day or something like that.

[1525] I feel like there's one set of things that we can and should do.

[1526] We've built some time spent tools so you can see what you do.

[1527] then Apple and Google built the same thing for the overall phone which is way better I just wish we knew they were doing that so we would have done something else so you can set like limits et cetera I think there was probably more to do there's probably some lightweight nudges so it's like hey you know you've been on Instagram for three hours you know walk around the yard or get a breath of fresh air maybe yeah that's like a more acute problem that's a very small percentage of people but it's like a more concerning on a per person basis and then there's like the broad like do you just feel like you use it too much And that's where, you know, rethinking some of the fundamentals of how Instagram works, like possibly making my accounts private is the kind of stuff that I think is going to be more productive.

[1528] Yeah.

[1529] But wait, how did you transition from Facebook?

[1530] Is there a quick answer to how you started at Instagram?

[1531] Yeah.

[1532] I was running newsfeed for a number of years.

[1533] And I was a new dad out of two little kids.

[1534] And there was sort of a shuffle at the company around.

[1535] was running, we're working on what.

[1536] And Mike and Kevin, the founders of Instagram, were trying to recruit me to run product for Instagram, so to be the head of product.

[1537] And am I right in that, although Facebook owns Instagram, it's largely church and state, it's divided?

[1538] We work together pretty closely.

[1539] Oh, you do?

[1540] Okay.

[1541] It's definitely a separate team, you know, we have our own floor in the New York building, that kind of thing.

[1542] But we try to leverage them as much as possible.

[1543] Oh, okay.

[1544] Like on like the safety and integrity issues we've been talking about.

[1545] There's a ton of people who work on that at Facebook and a lot of what our team does is figure out how to leverage what they do so we can keep more people safe more quickly.

[1546] Yeah.

[1547] They were trying to recruit me and honestly I really loved the news feed job, but, you know, the combination of the intensity and the scrutiny and having new kids, I was like, oh, this might be a better work -life balance.

[1548] Yeah, more manageable.

[1549] And I also love Instagram.

[1550] I've always loved Instagram.

[1551] And so I came over.

[1552] And then six months later, not even.

[1553] even they left and it all kind of blew up was can I ask was that um unforeseen I didn't foresee it I part of the reason why I went over is I wanted to work with those guys but the six and a half years is an incredibly long time for founders to stay at a company that's acquired yes did they leave to start something else no okay they're good for them they're just gonna fucking live yeah I'm sure they'll both do something I had drinks with them recently they both seem good Kevin and Mike Kevin and Mike.

[1554] Okay.

[1555] Influencers.

[1556] Now, I think all of us in the entertainment business initially had a knee -jerk reaction, which was like, these people are just famous because they're famous.

[1557] They don't sing or dance or act or great music or this or that.

[1558] I think it was a judgmental, right?

[1559] And then I think there was a, well, this is the reality.

[1560] So then there was that phase.

[1561] And then, no, I love it.

[1562] What are your thoughts on the influencers?

[1563] And how much, what's the max someone's making?

[1564] Do you have any sense of that?

[1565] I probably have a guess.

[1566] I think influences means different things of different people.

[1567] So maybe we start there.

[1568] We try to use the word creators, not just because it sounds nicer, but because I think of influencers are people who are paid to actually promote things.

[1569] So brandy content.

[1570] There's nothing wrong with that, by the way.

[1571] Whereas creators is a super set of people who are just, you know, public figures on Instagram.

[1572] Creating content.

[1573] Yeah, and you might be an actor.

[1574] You might be a journalist.

[1575] You might be an artist.

[1576] you might be, you know, you might actually create something or you might just be a personality.

[1577] Yeah.

[1578] We sort of no judgments from our side.

[1579] I think that in general, what's really interesting to me about the space is that you're just, we're obviously in this very clear paradigm shift of power from the organization to the individual across tons of industries.

[1580] So the athlete is more empowered relative to the team than ever before.

[1581] The journalist is more empowered relative to the publication.

[1582] The actor is more empowered relative to the studio.

[1583] And I think that's the result of the internet, Well, can I tell you in my own life, even in my short, I don't know, I've been doing this maybe 16, 17 years in the public eye.

[1584] It used to be a story would come out about me and let's say it was false.

[1585] My options were to try to secure another interview to maybe debunk that or cooperate with them again so that I could set the record straight.

[1586] And now we'll get these emails that say like, we're going to run the story about Dax and Kristen.

[1587] Do they want to comment?

[1588] And I just fucking publish that.

[1589] I'm like, just so you know, this is the horseshit that's coming your way.

[1590] So that part I love.

[1591] Well, even just like, we're here.

[1592] You have a podcast.

[1593] Yes.

[1594] Instagram's a huge part of why I have a podcast successful.

[1595] And just more broadly than Instagram, just like people, you know, now are more likely to love and connect to an actor than they were ever before.

[1596] So that that shift is happening, right?

[1597] This power is moving.

[1598] And I think that is exciting.

[1599] And I'm sure there's pros and cons, there's upsides and downsides.

[1600] and I think we are trying to lean into that because that is bigger than Instagram but I think we're uniquely positioned to help now I think the key thing here is that there's a lot of transparency so if you're getting paid for something people know you're getting paid for it I think that creators have the tools they need to really sort of go through that whole journey because I kind of hope my aspiration for Instagram over the long run is that we can be a place where you can break in the first place you can just like break out you can then grow you can learn about your audience and then you can even turn that into a living.

[1601] Uh -huh.

[1602] And right now we are pretty good at some of those things, not particularly good at others.

[1603] But I love the idea of creating that economic opportunity, not only for creators, but for small businesses.

[1604] Yeah.

[1605] As long as all of that is in a way that is in line with people's interests.

[1606] But people want to, they want to, your podcast is crushing.

[1607] They want to hear from you.

[1608] They want to hear from people more than ever.

[1609] Well, and that's where I've come out on the other side, where now I'll watch it now and go, isn't this spectacular?

[1610] We live in a world now where a little boy in his bedroom can do something.

[1611] something or a girl.

[1612] I found this girl who played guitar, like I couldn't believe how good she sang and played guitar.

[1613] And then we've since become great friends with her and like that kind of stuff.

[1614] I'm like, oh, no, this is wonderful.

[1615] Like every teenager I hung out with was like just dying to express themselves.

[1616] And there was really no outlet unless you wanted to go through the channel of like the high school musical or whatever the hell it was.

[1617] So yeah, just this outlet to be expressive and creative, I think is ultimately quite beautiful.

[1618] And I don't mind.

[1619] that people are rewarded if other people enjoy watching them.

[1620] Yeah, I mean, we feel the same way.

[1621] We just want to be thoughtful about are we creating real value for people?

[1622] Are they seeing what they're actually interested in on Instagram and feed in stories, et cetera?

[1623] To the degree that there's a business side of it, are we being transparent and making sure we're facilitating healthy stuff?

[1624] But it's honestly one of the things that we're most excited about.

[1625] Yeah.

[1626] It's just this whole shift to this whole sort of empowerment of the individual.

[1627] And I don't know.

[1628] It's one of the reasons why I love my job.

[1629] Yeah.

[1630] Is there anything that is on the Instagram horizon that we didn't bring up that you want to tell us about?

[1631] Are you stepping down anytime soon?

[1632] I think I proved to have a real good understanding of the core values of it.

[1633] I don't know.

[1634] He's really obsessed with circles.

[1635] Yeah.

[1636] If I have one tip for you.

[1637] Adam, you're a very chill motherfucker.

[1638] We like you.

[1639] You're a buck.

[1640] You're smart.

[1641] You're creative.

[1642] I'll take it.

[1643] Yeah.

[1644] You're just knocking it out of the park.

[1645] We love you.

[1646] We hope you'll come back and tell us if something radical happens at IG.

[1647] I would love to.

[1648] This room is good vibes.

[1649] So I'm more than happy to come back.

[1650] Thank you.

[1651] All right.

[1652] Well, thank you.

[1653] And we hope to talk to you again.

[1654] Thank you so much.

[1655] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1656] Hi, Momica.

[1657] Hi.

[1658] You have a busy day today.

[1659] You have to go to Momsplaining where you produce.

[1660] I do.

[1661] I do.

[1662] Where you got your Emmy nomination.

[1663] That's right.

[1664] Yeah, you got to zip over there, huh?

[1665] I do.

[1666] How are you going to get there?

[1667] I'll have to Uber there.

[1668] You're going to Uber there.

[1669] How are you doing?

[1670] Lovely.

[1671] It's Friday.

[1672] It's Friday.

[1673] It's Friday.

[1674] Yeah.

[1675] And I'm going to Colorado in the morning.

[1676] And it's going to be snowy.

[1677] Oh my gosh.

[1678] I got to find my snow gear today.

[1679] I'm excited.

[1680] How are you feeling post hypnotism?

[1681] Oh.

[1682] Do you feel any different this morning when you woke up?

[1683] Well, they won't have heard this episode yet.

[1684] That's okay.

[1685] It'll be a little teaser.

[1686] Monica gets hypnotized in an episode.

[1687] I got hypnotism.

[1688] I don't want to give away too much because you'll have to listen, but you'll get to hear it.

[1689] Mm -hmm.

[1690] And it's pretty crazy.

[1691] I found it to be very interesting.

[1692] You really got to see that screen.

[1693] The screen is everything.

[1694] When your brain waves went dead, that was the craziest part.

[1695] Yeah.

[1696] So I was hooked up to an EEG and you could see my brainwaves moving like crazy.

[1697] And then once I went to the hypnotic state, they went away.

[1698] They were volcanic prior.

[1699] Yeah.

[1700] Yeah.

[1701] Like these big mountains would shoot up out of the graph.

[1702] Yeah.

[1703] Like every two seconds.

[1704] Exactly.

[1705] And then nada.

[1706] I know.

[1707] Oh, it's so interesting.

[1708] Yet you were completely aware.

[1709] With hypnotherapy, they're just get, they're almost getting you into a meditative state.

[1710] Which I did feel like I was in, but I was definitely aware.

[1711] I think that's normal.

[1712] Yeah.

[1713] I was having these moments where I was staring at him and I was listening to him talking.

[1714] He was in my headphones.

[1715] And I'm like, I don't want to inadvertently get.

[1716] hypnotized here.

[1717] Uh -huh.

[1718] Uh, so then I would look at you, I was just, did you, Rob, did you have any fear of you were going to get in?

[1719] Yeah, I would take my headphones off.

[1720] Okay, occasionally.

[1721] Because I was like, I don't want that happening.

[1722] Yeah, we couldn't have all three of us hypnotized.

[1723] The guests are in charge all of a sudden.

[1724] The three of us go down.

[1725] On Kimmel, someone accidentally got hypnotized while he was hypnotizing Guillermo.

[1726] The cameraman.

[1727] The cameraman accidentally got hypnotized.

[1728] But I just don't understand because the hypnotizing.

[1729] he was doing to Guillermo is very specific, just like what he was doing to me was very specific.

[1730] So what he was doing to Guillermo, which I don't like the story, but this is Kimmel's fault, is he made Guillermo pee his pants.

[1731] That's right.

[1732] And he did pee his pants.

[1733] But the cameraman did not pee his pants.

[1734] If he peed his pants, I would have been like, oh, I see.

[1735] He got hypnotized into that.

[1736] Well, but those were two different moments in the whole process.

[1737] When the Cameraman fell out was not when Yerimo was being told to pee his pants.

[1738] Oh.

[1739] It's all very fast.

[1740] The brain is very susceptible.

[1741] It is.

[1742] It is.

[1743] And that links us to Instagram.

[1744] Perfect.

[1745] Yes, it does.

[1746] The brain is susceptible.

[1747] Manipulatable.

[1748] Yeah.

[1749] I mean, I'm noting it because right now, coronavirus hysteria.

[1750] Yeah, yeah, panic.

[1751] Our friend Amy went to Costco yesterday.

[1752] And she was there for her normal Costco trip.

[1753] And she said there was a line around the whole building.

[1754] Oh, my Christ.

[1755] For water and paper towels only.

[1756] People think they're going to need so many paper towels, I guess.

[1757] I know.

[1758] I have not understanding.

[1759] And water, in China, they still have water.

[1760] Yeah, it's going to come out of the faucet.

[1761] Maybe they think that the pandemic will get so large that people will stop showing up at Department of Water and Power.

[1762] I don't know.

[1763] like the thing's pretty on its own, isn't it?

[1764] Or the water supply will get compromised if people are dying?

[1765] It's not, though.

[1766] It's not happening in China.

[1767] So if it's not happening in China currently, it's not going to happen here.

[1768] But oh, oh, I'm sorry, it was paper towel, water and toilet paper.

[1769] But toilet paper, it's like, Amy made a good point.

[1770] She's like, I mean, we could just, if we had to just like use a rag and wash it off, this is what people do in other parts of we are all so spoiled.

[1771] A poop rag?

[1772] Yeah.

[1773] Yeah.

[1774] I'm not succumbing to the hysteria.

[1775] I almost want to just go get it to show everyone like, look, I got it.

[1776] And I'm fine.

[1777] And then we'll carry on.

[1778] But I know, but you're looking at it from a very selfish standpoint.

[1779] You're saying I'll get it and I'll be fine.

[1780] I'm saying everyone's going to get it.

[1781] Not everyone's going to be fine.

[1782] Everyone's not going to be fine.

[1783] You're right.

[1784] But everyone's going to get it as everyone gets every flu.

[1785] There's no way we're going to not get a flu.

[1786] Everyone gets all the flus.

[1787] And that's going to be what it's going to be.

[1788] And let's just do it.

[1789] Let's get it behind us.

[1790] Okay.

[1791] Well, first of all, no, not 100 % of people get the flu every flu season.

[1792] That's not true.

[1793] 90.

[1794] No, I doubt it.

[1795] Everyone I know always gets the exact same shit.

[1796] I don't know what the percentages of people who get the flu during flu season, but I don't think it's 90.

[1797] A lot of people get it.

[1798] A lot of people will get this.

[1799] But the goal would be to prevent the people who are highly susceptible to death from getting it.

[1800] I won't visit any nursing homes, that's easy.

[1801] No problem.

[1802] No. Oh my God.

[1803] What?

[1804] It's bigger than that.

[1805] If you give it to this person who then gives it to this person who gives it to someone in the nursing home, that person will die.

[1806] Well, the whole problem sounds like people should just not go to the nursing homes.

[1807] If we're just trying to protect the very vulnerable, we'll just not go to the nursing home until we get a vaccine.

[1808] Well, it's not just that people with compromised immune systems.

[1809] Okay, well, those people should wear a scarlet letter so that I don't touch them or get near them.

[1810] I don't know.

[1811] I just think, well, how about this?

[1812] Do you think some things are inevitable, I'm of the opinion when something's inevitable, you move as gracefully as possible into acceptance and there will be working on a vaccine that'll be two years away or a year and a half away, whatever that is.

[1813] We are not going to keep this thing at bay for a year and a half, I don't think.

[1814] But that's just my take.

[1815] That's how I feel about it.

[1816] I think some of it can be prevented, and we should try.

[1817] I think a lot of people will still get it.

[1818] But if we can save a few people from dying, I'd like to do that.

[1819] Yeah.

[1820] It's just, can you do that is my question.

[1821] Only 3 to 11 % get the flu each season.

[1822] Okay, that sounds more accurate.

[1823] Yeah.

[1824] I bet 90 % of that 3 % live in Los Angeles.

[1825] Do you feel that since Corona, or not really since corona well yeah ish do you feel like you have been feeling more contrarian ish that's not a word but i made it up like do you feel like you have been needing to find the other side of the argument more recently well that would be in keeping with the role i think i have in my friendship group and family which is the kind of voice of everything will be okay, which is ironic because the thing I'm saying I think is saying everything will be fine.

[1826] But obviously when I talk to Kristen, every time we talk about it, it goes wrong.

[1827] I've yet to have a good conversation with her about corona.

[1828] So whatever I'm doing is not doing what I'm trying to do.

[1829] Like I'm basically saying it's fine.

[1830] Don't worry about it.

[1831] And she hears that as I'm going to be dangerous and you're responsible and pick up coronavirus.

[1832] But it's also dismissing her and what I'm.

[1833] saying thought that this is something to be considerate about at the very least is there are people in the world who could be affected by our actions and so it's not to protect us I mean honestly you're the most susceptible out of all of us for getting it and I'm the least worried just because you're the least worry doesn't mean that we don't worry on your behalf I know yeah and also for all the other people.

[1834] I guess the point is why those conversations aren't going as you want them to go.

[1835] Yeah, no one's feeling safer at the end of them.

[1836] But it is my goal.

[1837] Is that the goal?

[1838] Yeah.

[1839] I'm always the Don't worry, police.

[1840] Yes, I know because you were the like beginning of telling everyone about it and that it was bad and scary.

[1841] Yeah, and I like I worked through the whole process.

[1842] So at first, I don't like life on life's terms.

[1843] Life's terms are there is a fucking swan flu coming out of Wuhan, and I don't like that.

[1844] Uh -huh.

[1845] And then I say, I'm not going to accept that there's going to be a pandemic.

[1846] I'm going to somehow remove myself of it.

[1847] And then I start playing out all these fantasies.

[1848] Like, am I going to go to Oregon and stay with my mom and bring the family?

[1849] Am I going to rent a place in the middle of Jackson Hole and sit there for three months, right?

[1850] And I start coming up with all these game plans that I'm going to do so that I will not be involved in this reality.

[1851] And then I do that for about two weeks, I guess I did it.

[1852] And then I came out on the other side.

[1853] I was like, it's a total illusion that I'll be able to do anything.

[1854] I can't move somewhere.

[1855] I'm not, when I'm going to go live in a hole for two years until there's a vaccine?

[1856] I just start working backwards from the reality of what I'm going to do and not going to do.

[1857] And then I come out to, no, I live on planet Earth.

[1858] There's this flu.

[1859] Everyone's going to get it.

[1860] And I'm going to get it.

[1861] And we're going to survive.

[1862] And life will go on.

[1863] And then I accept all of it.

[1864] But you see those are two.

[1865] extremes.

[1866] Sure.

[1867] One is so extreme.

[1868] You're going to go live in a bunker for teachers.

[1869] And the other is I'll do absolutely nothing and I'll get it and I hope I get it.

[1870] Yeah.

[1871] So that is not, you want to be more middle crown.

[1872] Well, one was denial and one is acceptance in my mind, not in your mind, but in my mind, I went from denial and wanting my will to be able to affect the world.

[1873] And now I'm of the opinion that, no, I'm not going to have any.

[1874] different protection than any other person.

[1875] I'm not going to have a unique scenario by which I'll be spared.

[1876] I'm just, it's going to happen to me the way it happens to everybody, and I accept that.

[1877] And I'm not trying to poke you guys, you bears.

[1878] I'm not trying to like stir up some shit or be contrarian for fun.

[1879] That's not my motivation.

[1880] Okay.

[1881] My motivation is like, this thing's going to be what it's going to be.

[1882] The only thing we can control is how we're reacting to it leading up to it.

[1883] But that isn't true.

[1884] Well, we disagree on that.

[1885] which is fine.

[1886] I'm not saying I'm right and I'm not saying you're wrong.

[1887] I'm saying I have a different opinion of that.

[1888] I don't think washing your hands for 20 seconds is really going to do anything because you have to move through the world.

[1889] Like, just I encourage everyone to be conscious all day long of everything they touched.

[1890] It's impossible.

[1891] Like we went to the gymnastics place, went in the bathroom, washing the hands like, okay, now I've got to dry my hands.

[1892] You're going to use that stupid air thing, which is supposed to be a disease.

[1893] Yeah, don't use that, right?

[1894] Now I've got to pull toilet paper off of the toilet paper so I can touch the door handle to get out of the place or use my shirt and now it's on my shirt and then what my kid hugs me where I use the shirt handle.

[1895] I just start realizing the futility of it.

[1896] You can't get in and out of a bathroom even without spending like 10 extra minutes and then even at that I don't think you were successful.

[1897] It's like when they used to do these things on the news in the 90s where they would lace this chicken with something that would show up on a black light detector and they'd have these.

[1898] moms prepared chicken in their kitchen and even knew they were preparing it and being observed with how clean and then they black like that kitchen it is fucking everywhere even though the person was being as careful as can be humanly possible it can't be done you're right and you're also wrong because it's not like those people are getting salmonella well hold on no no if it's on your door handle of your fridge salmonella and the little kid puts his hand on the door handle and puts it in his mouth, he can get salmonella without ever eating chicken.

[1899] He can, but what's the percentage?

[1900] Look at how many people in the world gets salmonella.

[1901] It's less than if they were eating raw chicken.

[1902] Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[1903] So the preventative measure, I'm saying, does cut down.

[1904] I mean, I'm not saying it completely takes it away, but it helps.

[1905] So you might as well help.

[1906] Building on your Costco story, I've been trying to order disinfected wipes to take with me on the airplane.

[1907] You can't get them on Amazon.

[1908] Everything's back ordered.

[1909] Yeah, I know.

[1910] can't even get hand sanitizer.

[1911] Right.

[1912] I know it's crazy.

[1913] And I'm actually flying.

[1914] I actually need it.

[1915] But this panic is such that now I can't even, you know, someone who's actually flying.

[1916] You know, I need to take some chlorox.

[1917] Well, I thought about that, but then it's got liquid in it.

[1918] Can you put that through the fucking machine or should I take like a handful in a Ziploc bag?

[1919] I've already thought of all this.

[1920] I think take a handful in the Ziploc bag.

[1921] Yeah, I wipe down the C. Yeah.

[1922] Although I don't agree with you, I see the validity of your argument.

[1923] Uh -huh.

[1924] I can see it.

[1925] It's not abstract to me. I don't think you're, like, crazy.

[1926] For saying what?

[1927] Your viewpoint on this corona.

[1928] That you should take a bunch of measures, all of the ones that are at your disposal, washing your hands a ton, bringing disinfectant wipes, all that stuff.

[1929] Yeah.

[1930] That that'll reduce your likelihood of both contracting it and then spreading it on to someone else.

[1931] Yeah.

[1932] I see the validity.

[1933] I'm definitely not saying it removes.

[1934] And I feel also the same way.

[1935] I was at the doctor this morning and I was like, oh, you.

[1936] You can't even walk through the door without.

[1937] No. And there's hands sanitizer there.

[1938] I am just, like, sanitizing over and over again.

[1939] Then I have to go do a urine sample, not a stool sample.

[1940] But I'm, like, peeing in the bathroom.

[1941] I'm just like, oh, yeah, God.

[1942] Just like, everyone's doing these urine samples in here.

[1943] And it's a mess.

[1944] You put it in the little cabinet.

[1945] You open the door and the person just peed before you and open the door.

[1946] But I am then immediately washing my hands.

[1947] And you're touching the faucet.

[1948] And then you've got to turn the faucet off.

[1949] Yeah, but the thought, I think, is that if everyone's doing that, then their hands are clean Yeah Anyways do you do you see any merit to my point of view Although you don't agree with it I just told you I agree with it that I I see the merit in Saying you know We might all get it And we kind of have to accept that There are germs everywhere and there's There's only so much you can do But I believe in there's only so much you can do not, so we just shouldn't do anything.

[1950] Yeah, yeah.

[1951] It's a real all or nothing kind of point of view.

[1952] It is.

[1953] It feels all or nothing.

[1954] It does, yeah.

[1955] My doctor, as a follow -up, still not giving me what I want when I'm talking about the seizure.

[1956] Might be a time for a new doctor.

[1957] It might be.

[1958] Yeah.

[1959] What'd you say this time?

[1960] You're like, I told you so?

[1961] Well, she did my urine test for a totally unrelated thing.

[1962] Uh -huh.

[1963] And then she's like, it looks pretty good right now, but we're going to send it out.

[1964] and we'll let you know So have a great weekend And then starts to leave And I was like, well, I do have one more thing And then I told her she was like Okay, so somebody saw it And I was like, yeah And she was like, okay So they have you on this Kepra Okay All right, well, yeah Like Remember when I was here Two weeks ago And I told you about this And you didn't seem to take it seriously Uh huh Yeah.

[1965] Not that I...

[1966] I'm a little sympathetic to doctors because I do think a significant percentage of the people that come in are bona fide hypochondriacs that are talking themselves into something.

[1967] And it must be so hard to determine who's who.

[1968] Right.

[1969] I agree.

[1970] I also think you as a doctor should take everything seriously.

[1971] Yeah.

[1972] And what she said to me the first time was we would never do anything unless there was multiple things, which I understand that.

[1973] but we need to work on our bedside manner doctors a little bit I need you to think like an extra five minutes about what maybe it could be when I'm in there and I have a horrible back pain and I peed the bed and I was disoriented like just the extra couple minutes maybe yeah um okay how old is Chelsea Clinton 40 and Adam is 37 so she's a couple years older than him when he saw her her at the older woman.

[1974] The cafe that he worked at.

[1975] You said orcas are one of the only animals that have a neocortex as high as humans.

[1976] Orcas have the second largest known brain mass of any extant animal.

[1977] A closer look at the neuroanatomy of the human and whale brain reveals that the whale cerebral cortex is much more convoluted than the human cortex.

[1978] The area of the human neocortal surface is 2 ,275 centimeters squared surface area about the size of a dinner napkin but the common dolphin neocortical area is 3 ,745 centimeters squared bigger than an unfolded newspaper the sperm whale no one has measured it but it's vastly larger than a newspaper oh boy which is interesting you asked why there are so many names for NYU different colleges within the university UCLA doesn't have that?

[1979] Not that I'm aware of.

[1980] Really?

[1981] I was surprised when you asked that because...

[1982] It sounds weird to me, yeah, though.

[1983] They have 11 schools in colleges.

[1984] But my...

[1985] U .J. had that.

[1986] Like, if you graduated from the business school, you graduated from Terry.

[1987] If you graduated from the communication school, you graduated from Grady.

[1988] Oh.

[1989] The Franklin College of Arts and Sciences.

[1990] Like, they had different...

[1991] I bet I'm just wrong.

[1992] I bet UCLA does have.

[1993] I didn't know about it.

[1994] I think probably most do, but I have no idea.

[1995] I don't know what my school was.

[1996] I just went to UCLA.

[1997] I didn't go to like the Wahlberg, UCLA.

[1998] I wonder on your diploma if it says like.

[1999] McDonald's or Burger King.

[2000] The Burger King School of Anthropology at UCLA.

[2001] That really would take the piss out of your degree.

[2002] Yeah, wouldn't it?

[2003] Yeah.

[2004] I went to the Krispy Kreme School.

[2005] Like, they still graduate from NYU.

[2006] It's just within, like, same for, I was, like, graduated from University of Georgia, but BA from the Franklin College of Arts and Sciences and a BA from the Brady School of Communication.

[2007] Have it be the name of your school.

[2008] I don't like it.

[2009] You do?

[2010] It's like niche, you know.

[2011] But if you went to Harvard, you want to say, I went to Harvard, not I went to Grady.

[2012] You do.

[2013] You do still say it.

[2014] Like, they still say I went to NYU.

[2015] He didn't say, I went to Gathe.

[2016] Gallatin College.

[2017] He just within NYU.

[2018] Exactly.

[2019] The only reason people say Tish is because that's well known.

[2020] Mm -hmm.

[2021] They still graduate from NYU.

[2022] They just went to Tish.

[2023] It's also named after the Tish family, you know, who's donated all the money to them.

[2024] They own the New York Giants.

[2025] Oh, sure.

[2026] One of the Tish children produced Forrest Comp.

[2027] Oh, wow.

[2028] Forrest Camp, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2029] Yeah, generally the names are named after.

[2030] Donors.

[2031] Billionaire, yeah, really quick.

[2032] That's why I love Rockefeller.

[2033] Because University of Chicago is Rockefeller's school.

[2034] He started it, funded it, owned it, didn't want his name anywhere near it.

[2035] He didn't put his name on anything.

[2036] Wow.

[2037] I love that.

[2038] Carnegie on the other hand.

[2039] That motherfucker couldn't put his name fast.

[2040] But not but Rockefeller Center.

[2041] Well, so that was a piece of real estate he owned that came to be known as that.

[2042] It wasn't a philanthropic endeavor like schools or medical.

[2043] Sure.

[2044] you know, then Rockefeller Center did get named after him, but you're saying he didn't do it.

[2045] Well, A, I don't know if he did it.

[2046] And B, it's a piece of real estate.

[2047] So it was like a building he built.

[2048] Yeah.

[2049] It's still his name on it.

[2050] It's still his name, but my issue more is like philanthropy and then getting recognition.

[2051] I don't know.

[2052] Oh, no, a little bit.

[2053] I see what you mean.

[2054] One just seems like a bigger person.

[2055] I'm going to build all this for free and give it to the population.

[2056] Not take credit.

[2057] I'm not even going to ask for credit.

[2058] That seems more who I'd want to be.

[2059] Yeah, I agree.

[2060] You said some of the best trainers are out of shape.

[2061] No, you just said that.

[2062] Charles Eames's definition of design.

[2063] A, one could describe design as a plan for arranging elements to accomplish a particular purpose.

[2064] Okay.

[2065] Oh, I'm sorry.

[2066] Oops.

[2067] A is for answer.

[2068] Oh, okay.

[2069] There's another question.

[2070] Is design an example?

[2071] expression of art a for answer i would rather say it's an expression of purpose it may if it is good enough later be judged as art okay function before fashion you have an eames chair yep yep very uh sleek very sleek doesn't get a lot of use doesn't but it's comfortable it is comfortable yeah just doesn't go with anything either it's like you got to commit to a full mid -century modern look that's if you're going modern yeah which you aren't no i haven't no say in what direction any of it's going to do you pick modern no yeah it doesn't seem like your style i'm all about comfort i'm not a modern girl either you're not i needed to feel you like a little tradition that's that georgian do i like tradition i like it to be funky i like wallpaper color pops patterns oh yeah excitement yeah yeah yeah stimuli beds TVs um TVs That's my main style aesthetic is TVs everywhere.

[2072] I know.

[2073] I just got in a big debate on set about this.

[2074] I was like, I don't understand people who are like, no TV in the family room, no TV in the bedroom.

[2075] I don't understand that.

[2076] Here's the thing.

[2077] Don't turn it on.

[2078] If your issue is I don't want my bedroom to be some.

[2079] I go there to sleep and I don't want to be entertained.

[2080] Then don't turn it on.

[2081] But maybe they don't want to feel tempted, which I get in the bedroom.

[2082] I get, but in the family room, what else are you doing in there?

[2083] I just don't turn it on.

[2084] If your issue is you're consuming too much TV, then what you're really saying is that you don't have the willpower to not turn it on?

[2085] Well, maybe they don't.

[2086] That's okay.

[2087] You have to keep it out of your room.

[2088] I don't know.

[2089] Well, you don't have the willpower.

[2090] You didn't have the willpower to not drink.

[2091] So you left alcohol out of your house.

[2092] That seems fair.

[2093] No, my house is loaded with alcohol.

[2094] Now, not when you first got sober.

[2095] No, it was because I was with Brie and she drank.

[2096] Okay, but you know what I'm saying.

[2097] I know what you're saying.

[2098] And that's the truth.

[2099] But I'm of the opinion.

[2100] It's not advisable if you're newly sober to stock your house with alcohol.

[2101] Well, of course, that's not advisable.

[2102] But if you can't stay sober because alcohol is around you, that's not a good plan because you're going to be around alcohol.

[2103] So the quicker you can get, you know what I'm saying?

[2104] I know, but this is circling back to our original argument, which is it's just increasing your chance for success.

[2105] Not saying anything's perfect one way or the other, but if you're newly sober, you might as well keep alcohol out of your reach for a bit.

[2106] Until you've been relieved of the obsession.

[2107] Yeah.

[2108] Yeah.

[2109] What are Twitter's numbers?

[2110] He said he thinks around 400 million active users.

[2111] There are 330 million monthly active users and 145 million daily active users on Twitter.

[2112] Okay.

[2113] Who is the most Instagram followers?

[2114] Cristiano Ronaldo is correct.

[2115] 206 million.

[2116] Mm. Football.

[2117] Boy, it's so popular.

[2118] You just have no sense of it here.

[2119] I know.

[2120] It's so true.

[2121] That's it.

[2122] Like, how could he be more popular than LeBron James?

[2123] Oh, my God.

[2124] LeBron's been posting the coolest videos of him and his family doing TikTok videos.

[2125] Oh, really?

[2126] And I watched one today for like 10 minutes.

[2127] Really?

[2128] I watched it over and over again because it was his whole family and I was looking at each individual person doing it.

[2129] Then I saw the whole thing and all together.

[2130] Oh, wow.

[2131] Yeah, yeah.

[2132] How many kids does he have?

[2133] Three, I believe.

[2134] Okay.

[2135] It looks like a fun house.

[2136] Yeah.

[2137] It looks like a cool place to live.

[2138] That's Will Smith's house looks so fun.

[2139] You dances all the time.

[2140] They do songs.

[2141] Their Christmas tree is like 40 feet tall.

[2142] It all looks like silver spoons.

[2143] It's funny.

[2144] When I was watching that, I was attaching to an old emotion when I was young and I would always like want to be a part of everyone else's family.

[2145] Right.

[2146] It always looked so fun and sparkly.

[2147] And I would do so much free writing.

[2148] And I would write all these stories and all the stories had to do with like a big family and lots of brothers and sisters.

[2149] A party.

[2150] Yeah.

[2151] Can I brag and give that compliment I received yesterday?

[2152] Sure.

[2153] Henry, one of Lincoln's classmates, who's seven.

[2154] Yes.

[2155] I went to pick her up.

[2156] She wasn't even there.

[2157] He just saw me in the hallway.

[2158] And he said, Lincoln is so lucky that she has a dad as cool as you.

[2159] Boy, did I put a spring in my step.

[2160] You loved it.

[2161] I was on a little pink cloud for the next hour.

[2162] You were.

[2163] And as you should be.

[2164] But can I tell you something?

[2165] Yeah.

[2166] I don't think you're going to be the kind to not put your name on the building.

[2167] Oh, because I just said that.

[2168] Because you can't not do that what you just did.

[2169] That's pretty good point.

[2170] Yeah.

[2171] Fuck.

[2172] Although, who's to say I haven't already built some buildings and I didn't?

[2173] Who's to say?

[2174] Oh, God, and then I'd have to break it just to prove I was right to you.

[2175] Oh, would have won.

[2176] Yeah, but then you would have won.

[2177] Yeah.

[2178] So I'm not going to tell you.

[2179] But I've built so many hospitals.

[2180] Oh, really?

[2181] And things for kids.

[2182] Pretty much any time you're driving around LA and you see something great for kids that was a public works, I did that.

[2183] Oh, wow.

[2184] Good job.

[2185] Thank you so much.

[2186] I don't even need to be recognized, but thank you.

[2187] All right, that's all.

[2188] I love you.

[2189] We should warn everyone, we might miss a couple fact checks coming up.

[2190] We're really sorry.

[2191] We might be able to figure out a system.

[2192] And maybe this isn't the case.

[2193] But if so.

[2194] No one got injured.

[2195] Everyone's alive.

[2196] Just a long travel.

[2197] work travel trip correct all right all right warning love you bye follow armchair expert on the wondry app amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts you can listen to every episode of armchair expert early and ad free right now by joining wondry plus in the wondry app or on apple podcasts before you go tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondry dot com slash survey