John Cleese

[0] Hi, my name is John Cleese, and I feel it is morally imperative to be Conan O 'Brien's friend.

[1] Fall is here, hear the yell, back to school, ring the bell, brand new shoes, walking blues, climb the fence, books and pens, I can tell that we are going to be friends.

[2] We are going to be friends Hello, welcome to Conan O 'Brien Needs a Friend.

[3] This is a labor of love.

[4] I'm so thrilled to get to do this show.

[5] It's funny because it's a different kind of conversation I get to have with people and the kinds of conversations that I've been wanting to have for so long.

[6] Not always possible on the show when people are distracted by my razor -sharp cheekbones, thick, luxuriant hair, chiseled chin.

[7] It's a distraction.

[8] But here when my beauty cannot be seen, conversation tends to blossom in a way that it can't.

[9] Well, they can see you.

[10] It doesn't seem to phase them at all.

[11] You walk around with me all the time, Sona.

[12] And you see me walk down the street and people are like, fuck, that guy's hot!

[13] And then they go, oh, it's Conan, right?

[14] Never once.

[15] Never once happened.

[16] Never once did anything even kind of like that happened.

[17] That's strange, because I've paid so many people to do that and they've taken the money and then not done it.

[18] I've joined, as always, by Sonam of Sessian.

[19] Hello.

[20] And our good friend and, of course, expert producer, Matt Gourley.

[21] How are you, Matt?

[22] I'm good.

[23] How are you guys?

[24] Well, I'm good.

[25] I'm a little angry today.

[26] Yeah, you're riled.

[27] I am riled, and you can tell I've got my Irish up.

[28] What?

[29] Although genetically, I guess my Irish is always up.

[30] I am a little irritated by something, which is that the guest today is an absolute legend.

[31] Unbelievable.

[32] Unbelievable legend in comedy.

[33] And, of course, we're talking.

[34] about Mr. John Cleese, and this is a big deal.

[35] And we always have the same engineer, right?

[36] Colin.

[37] Yes, who is British.

[38] And Colin's this lovely guy, and he is here in the trenches.

[39] No matter who I'm talking to, if it's early in the morning or late at night, there could be an earthquake, and Colin's here, and he's always rubbing things down with disinfectant to make sure there's near COVID, and he's always in the corner scrubbing out, out some piece of equipment, and he's just, I don't know, he's like a Bob Cratchett, you know, he's always there.

[40] He wears fingerless gloves and he's working really hard and working his fingers to the bone.

[41] He tells me where the twicks is.

[42] You can find those like a truffle.

[43] You know, like you can just dig down with your paws and get the twicks no matter where we bury it.

[44] Come on.

[45] Who's my paws?

[46] What?

[47] What the hell?

[48] Well, pause slash hands.

[49] Anyway.

[50] Do you remember also that Colin came when Jesse Eisenberg was locked out and came out of the blue and saved the day?

[51] Yes.

[52] He also sweeps the chimneys at Earwolf, too.

[53] But anyway, but Eisenberg shows up and there's nobody here but of course Collins in his little cot in the back and he scurries out he scurries out and he's like oh sir oh Mr. Eisenberg sir hope please hold I'll open for you and he let him in and he said can I make you some kippers can I make you an eel boy and then of course Eisenberg was like I don't know why this Dickensy and 19th century British guy is here but okay it's because you reduce everybody to their common denomination that's not true anywho the point.

[54] The point is Colin's always here.

[55] Now, I tell him the other day hey, John Cleese is on and he's like, oh my God, John Cleese I grew up watching him on the telly and I'm going to be the one that connects him into the phone call with you.

[56] Me, talking to the great John Cleese.

[57] And then I said to Colin, I said, hey, how much is that, that goose, that Christmas goose in the window?

[58] How much is that?

[59] And he went to, and I said, what day is it today, Colin?

[60] He went, today?

[61] Christmas day!

[62] And I said, is that goose still in the window?

[63] It's just, yes, it is.

[64] Here's a shing.

[65] Go get that goose.

[66] So anyway, all that's going on, and I'm so happy for Colin, and I come in this morning, Colin's not here.

[67] No. Suddenly there's this other guy here, Devin.

[68] Now, it turns out, Devin, Devin, what's your last name?

[69] Bryant.

[70] Oh, Devin, Bryant.

[71] Now, Devin, you outrank Colin.

[72] Is that right?

[73] I run the entire company, yes, that's correct.

[74] You run the whole company.

[75] No, no, but you do outrank Colin.

[76] I do not outranked Colin.

[77] Well, wait a minute.

[78] All I know is that you, you're here, and I'm like, Wait a minute.

[79] Why is Devin here?

[80] Right.

[81] And then I remembered something.

[82] There was one other time when you kicked Colin out and you took over the controls.

[83] And that was when?

[84] Eric Idol.

[85] Eric Idol was here.

[86] And now it occurs to me that whenever there's a Python guy on, you tell Colin who idolizes them.

[87] They're on his currency.

[88] It's true.

[89] People, if you want to buy like some ale in a pub, you give someone five Graham Chapman's and you can buy the ale.

[90] I find out that you tell him, hey, Colin, run out and get some cigarettes.

[91] I'm handling it today.

[92] Is that what you do?

[93] Yeah, send him out for liquor and smokes.

[94] Yeah.

[95] But I think that's, I don't know, it feels somehow wrong to me that you're denying this guy who's here all the time the chance to talk to John Cleese so that you can be here and go, no, hello, Mr. Cleese, I'm Devin.

[96] Now, I run things here.

[97] I don't think I even interacted with him even one word.

[98] Oh, trust me. trust me, I came here and I saw you trying to get him sign something over Zoom Yeah, he was trying to get an autograph over Zoom And he was trying to get him to feed it into an old fax machine from the 80s And when Cleese couldn't do it, you were like, what's wrong with you?

[99] So what did you do?

[100] How did you get rid of Colin?

[101] I'm curious.

[102] Colin just asked if I wanted to come in and do it today.

[103] That is not true.

[104] That is not true.

[105] First of all, that is not, no. That makes me think that Colin doesn't want to be.

[106] here in the first place.

[107] I was just going to say it sounds like Colin just didn't want to be here.

[108] Oh yeah, didn't want to be here when a national treasure of the English people is here on the show.

[109] Well, can I have...

[110] Of course he wanted to be here.

[111] But creepy Devin said, oh, you know what, I've been pretty much taking it easy during COVID.

[112] Checks are rolling in anyway.

[113] As long as Conan keeps talking, I get paid.

[114] I've had a good time.

[115] I've rewatched all of Gossip Girl.

[116] Now I, now I get to, oh yeah, Cleese, that would be a fun one.

[117] Hey, Colin, I got an idea.

[118] Why don't you drive over to Encino, pick up a package for me and don't come back.

[119] Are you just upset you couldn't make fun of Colin in your British accent while John Cleese was on?

[120] No, not at all.

[121] I would never do that.

[122] I would never mock someone's British accent in front of John Cleese.

[123] I would do it when I'm not on the phone with John Cleese.

[124] This way, you'll find out I get to have my cake, eat it two and shit it out that's three but right now Colin is somewhere with a tear that's mostly made of ham gravy because the British are a very unhealthy people a tear climbing its way down his face and he's thinking oh wish I had talked to Mr. Clay's but Devon wanted to oh well maybe when Michael Palin's on the show then I'll get to talk to him.

[125] Sorry, Devin.

[126] I'm just noticing that you're a bit of a...

[127] I'm just curious...

[128] Am I going to see your push again when another big name rolls in through here?

[129] Possibly.

[130] Possibly.

[131] Well, Devin.

[132] Yeah, Devin.

[133] I've decided you're a bad guy.

[134] Yeah, fuck you, Devin.

[135] Hey, take it easy, Sona.

[136] That was a little much.

[137] Yeah, Sona, come on.

[138] Jesus.

[139] I'm like your hype man. Son I apologize to Devin.

[140] I'm sorry, Devin.

[141] Hey, Devin, I'm sorry on behalf of Sona.

[142] That was out of line.

[143] You were just shitting on him for like 15 minutes.

[144] Oh, no. Mine came from a place of truth.

[145] Yours was just sort of, yeah.

[146] Yours was just...

[147] Oh, yours came from a place of truth.

[148] Well, yes.

[149] I'm here.

[150] I'm the one that gets here earlier, often earlier than you, and I'm the one that has to wake up, Colin, and it's such a small cot he has here at the podcast studio.

[151] I know.

[152] And he has that little hot plate, and he always makes some tea.

[153] And he says, would you like a little tea?

[154] Only got one tea bag.

[155] Only add one for about two years now, but just keep reusing it, you say.

[156] And then he goes, it's the point.

[157] Posh, Posh.

[158] Traveling noif, the traveling life for me. And I go, don't sing this now.

[159] And he goes, first cabin captain's squad is real company.

[160] And I go, please don't do this song from Chitty -chee -D -B -B -O -S -H -P.

[161] And he goes, T 'O -N -A -T -O -S -H -P.

[162] And I go, well, that's very nice, Colin.

[163] Anyway.

[164] Oh, my God.

[165] You know, let's get into it.

[166] And I'm sorry.

[167] Hey, this one I dedicate to Colin.

[168] Colin, wherever you are right now in whatever pub, squeezing the oil out of the newspaper that wraps your fish.

[169] This one's for you, old chum.

[170] And yes, in honor of you, I'll call it football and not soccer.

[171] Okay, we have a very, oh.

[172] It's on the bottom.

[173] Oh, it's the bottom one that's really small.

[174] Thanks a lot.

[175] Colin would have fixed that.

[176] That's okay, Devin.

[177] I can read it.

[178] I can make it out.

[179] Okay.

[180] No, I brought opera glasses.

[181] I'm fine.

[182] Lucky me. Son of a bitch.

[183] Jesus Christ.

[184] No, it's good.

[185] I can just make it out.

[186] I can just see.

[187] I brought these binoculars that I use when I'm out at sea.

[188] to spot burgs on the horizon.

[189] That's handy.

[190] No, no, it's fine.

[191] I'm glad.

[192] We're going.

[193] We're keeping this all in.

[194] Trust me. This is all going in.

[195] Oh, you're awful.

[196] I'm an awful slash greatest man that ever lived.

[197] Those two words are often confused.

[198] Although one of them is not just a word, it's a phrase.

[199] He's insane.

[200] Way too much coffee, way too early.

[201] Wow.

[202] I want to mention something.

[203] Our guest today.

[204] This is what I come into.

[205] Our guest today.

[206] Our guest today, Devin, I was on a roll.

[207] I know you just jumped in.

[208] Yep.

[209] And so now you're really on my.

[210] shit litch.

[211] Yeah, fuck you, David.

[212] Yeah, Colin Hater.

[213] And that one was deserved from so.

[214] Oh, that was from a place of truth?

[215] My guest today, I want to point out first that he is not in studio because of COVID.

[216] And not only is he not in studio, he's on the island of Mustique.

[217] And he's talking to us, I think, on a 1920s telephone.

[218] But that will not matter because this man is one of my heroes.

[219] He's an absolute genius.

[220] He's, of course, a comedic legend, one of the founding members of the iconic comedy troupe Monty Python.

[221] His new book, Creativity, A Short and Cheerful Guide, is available now.

[222] And good Lord, do I love this book, because it really concisely captures so much valuable thinking about creativity.

[223] And I really mean that.

[224] I'm honored this gentleman's with us today.

[225] Please welcome from the island of Mustique on a really crappy phone.

[226] John Cleese, welcome.

[227] We're here with John Cleese.

[228] I'm not a fan of his work.

[229] Never have been.

[230] Not sure why he's on the podcast.

[231] John, how are you?

[232] I'm fine, you bastard.

[233] Now we're on the right track.

[234] You know, I, uh, you're going to take that tone.

[235] I don't think we're going to get anywhere.

[236] What?

[237] This is not some assignment you've been given.

[238] This is a joyous occasion for you.

[239] It's been your lifelong dream to do a podcast with Conan O 'Brien.

[240] Today is the realization of that dream, sir.

[241] And I read today this little blurb about the show that I'm now a leading thinker.

[242] Yeah.

[243] I was really thrilled because I knew I was a comedy icon and a legend, but I'd never known I was a leading thinker, so I'm feeling very sort of puffed up.

[244] Well, you should feel puffed up.

[245] You've written this wonderful book, John Cleese.

[246] It's called Creativity, A Short and Cheerful Guide.

[247] I'm just reminding you in case you forgot.

[248] It is a spectacular book, and I want to tell everyone.

[249] when listening, it's a very short book, but one of the most insightful books I've read about creativity.

[250] It's really quite lovely.

[251] You touch on a number of things I've given a lot of thought to because I've been in the business of trying to be, this will sound like nothing to you, but for over 30 years, I've spent chunks of every day trying to think of something funny, and I have a thousand theories about how that process works, and I'm stunned.

[252] that in such a short book, you were able to hit the nail on the head so many times.

[253] It's really lovely.

[254] I could not be more happy.

[255] Because I tell you why, I wanted to put everything into the book that you needed to know in order to become more creative.

[256] And you know that phrase.

[257] I think it's attributed to Mark Twain and lots of people about a...

[258] I'm sorry, this is such a long letter, but I didn't have time to write a shorter one.

[259] You know?

[260] I always love that.

[261] Well, I had time to write a short one.

[262] a book.

[263] Yes.

[264] I've been thinking about this stuff for so long.

[265] I was able to put it together quite simply.

[266] But it does correspond pretty much, does it?

[267] What the book says to your own experience coming up with funny stuff?

[268] Yes, assuming that what I come up with is funny.

[269] That's very kind of you.

[270] I will say this.

[271] One of the points you make in the book is that the human brain often operates on a subconscious level.

[272] And you talk about this in the book that when you say that, people tend to think, oh, Freud and sleeping with your mother and all the things I'm obsessed with.

[273] But what you're talking about is quite different and I've noticed this many, many times I hit my head against a wall for hours at a time with a legal pat in front of me or a pen and paper.

[274] I don't think I'm getting anywhere.

[275] Then I go to sleep and when I wake up, I see things more clearly and I have ideas that didn't exist before.

[276] That's sort of the point of the book.

[277] Yes, I couldn't agree with you more.

[278] It's almost embarrassing because we seem to have the same mind.

[279] You know what I mean?

[280] What I've realized now is the moment you feel under real pressure, you always go for what's derivative, what you've done before.

[281] That's what stereotypical thinking is for.

[282] It's to give you a quick result that doesn't require any creativity.

[283] Yes, I think of it as muscle memory.

[284] There's a great anecdote that I think will ring true for you.

[285] because it's so much of what you're talking about in your book, I believe it was Jack Warner, some stereotypical studio head of the 1940s.

[286] He was walking through the studio, and he was walking past the writer's bungalows, and he didn't hear any typewriters.

[287] And he got angry, and he said, you know, I want to fire all these people because they're not working.

[288] Every time I walk past those bungalows, I want to hear typewriters going, because that is an uncreative person's concept of what thinking is, is, you know, constant movement.

[289] You have to hear they liken having an idea to its work, and it should be like, I better hear those shovels moving that coal, as opposed to so much of writing is agonizing and wandering around and procrastinating and looking out the window and carving an apple and making an excuse to go buy a new desk because the one you have isn't right.

[290] There's thinking that's going on then, and it's sort of denigrated, but it shouldn't be.

[291] You're absolutely right.

[292] I could never figure out why it was in the morning that I couldn't just sit down and write.

[293] But I couldn't.

[294] It was like you two poles of a magnet.

[295] I just couldn't just sit and write.

[296] So what I would do is I'd sort of sharpen pencils or I'd tidy my desk or I'd make another cup of coffee or I'd just go and sort my socks or something like that.

[297] I thought, why can't I get straight down to write?

[298] And I realized that all that sharpening of pencils was just beginning to get from one frame of mind into another, From the everyday frame of mind where you're just taking care of everything and making sure everything gets done and there's nothing creative about that that doesn't need to be.

[299] But it's a different part of the brain that you use from the one that you do when you're creating.

[300] And it takes a little time to get from one to the other.

[301] There was a period of time in my 30s when if I didn't have an idea, I would go out and randomly murder people.

[302] People like, you know, anonymous people, people that could never be traced back to me. And this was mostly in the Pacific North.

[303] Northwest, Seattle, Tacoma, and I would kill people while killing, while strangling, ideas would come to me, you know, that were, that, and I found that to be, and I didn't know why I was doing it, and I later realized that this was all part of the process.

[304] Well, for me, it was torturing small animals.

[305] Yes.

[306] You're just having fun.

[307] But you're having fun, and then all of a sudden you think, I know how I'm going, going to end that sketch.

[308] I have a...

[309] But you know, going back to your Jack Warner's story, I've heard that before, and I think it's a wonderful example.

[310] But what I also heard, which amused me enormously, it was that when the writers discovered what Warner was up to, they hired someone who sat in that block, writer's block, where they used to work.

[311] And when they saw, when he saw, Warner coming, he set off an alarm and they'd all pull the sheets out of their typewriter that they were trying to write, put a blank sheet in, just typelight crazy for two minutes.

[312] Just clack away.

[313] Just clack away for no reason.

[314] And then the lookout would say he's gone.

[315] They could put the paper back in and go on thinking.

[316] Yeah.

[317] You know, it's funny, too, you discussed this in the book.

[318] And I think that when you're early in your career, you need to start with people that inspire you, and you almost write.

[319] in their style.

[320] But for me, I've wrote sketches when I was in my late teens, and I looked at them later on, and they're Monty Python sketches.

[321] And I even have a clipped British accent when I would perform them for people.

[322] And it's embarrassing to me now because I thought, well, no, I was just writing in the style of what I wanted.

[323] This was the most creative comedy that I had encountered, so I wanted to write in that style.

[324] I wonder what it is.

[325] A lot of people, Americans, are said to me. People I've met after the show afterwards, and it's very touching.

[326] They sort of shake your hand.

[327] They say, thank you for making me laugh for 40 years.

[328] And there's literally a tear in their eye.

[329] And you can see that it's touched something with them.

[330] And I think, oh, yeah.

[331] Some people have a sense of the ridiculous.

[332] And I think American comedy is not very strong on the ridiculous.

[333] I know exactly what you're talking about.

[334] I've always knelt at the altar of silly.

[335] I've never, I've never wanted to be trenchant.

[336] I've, I've never wanted to be particularly political.

[337] I've never wanted anyone to watch anything that I've done and come away from it and say, I really learned something or you've changed my point of view.

[338] I just wanted to always to be silly.

[339] And I've actually had people from the UK over the years who've seen my sillier stuff say, yeah, you don't really belong in America.

[340] Look, I want you to come off this interview stupider than you were before.

[341] Yeah, I'll do my message.

[342] Mr. Colvin.

[343] But I have a question to ask you.

[344] Yes.

[345] If you go back in the history of American comedy, who would be silly?

[346] I think you can't get sillier than the Marx Brothers.

[347] Yeah, I agree.

[348] The Marx Brothers, in their purest form, whether it's Night at the Opera or Duck Soup, it is, and there's a very famous story about this, they do duck soup, and of course it comes out just around the time that Hitler is seizing power, and Duck Soup is a lot about people seizing power and taking control of a nation.

[349] And someone said to Groucho, this is a very, you know, wonderful scathing of Nazi Germany and Hitler.

[350] And Groucho said, what are you talking about?

[351] We're just four Jews trying to get a laugh.

[352] You've got to correct me on this, but I think one of the funniest lines ever Wagner's music is much better than it sounds.

[353] Let me see.

[354] I'll say this, Mr. Cogman.

[355] The funny thing about...

[356] I think you just called me Mr. Cognent.

[357] I think you just...

[358] Which means that by just speaking to me, I have made you stupider.

[359] That's right.

[360] That's really working.

[361] It's working, Cognon.

[362] It's really working.

[363] If you're joining us just now, I'm turning John Cleese into a blithering moron.

[364] Well, I had a question for you, which is, in your book, you talk about this surprise at encountering the footlights and starting to work with people like Graham Chapman and starting to realize that this is something you could do.

[365] But the one thing that you don't talk about in the book that I think needs to be brought up is that you're one of my favorite physical comedians of all time.

[366] There was no way you could have discovered that at 19 or 20.

[367] You had to know that growing up.

[368] No, I didn't.

[369] That's a strange thing.

[370] But you're right.

[371] I do do some physical comedy very well.

[372] But I remember when I was 22, I looked at some of the people around me, and I thought they were really much more talented than I was, because I had no musical talent.

[373] and my attempts to dance made me look like an Oxford philosophy professor, you know, it was just embarrassing.

[374] But I could play sports, and I think there's something about the sense timing.

[375] You know how when you hit a forehand and a ball just dings away because you hit it in the sweet spot?

[376] And I had something like that when I was doing comedy.

[377] I could time, I could time align.

[378] And I thought that that's, I honestly thought, when I was about 22 and I thought, that's all I can do.

[379] I've got good timing.

[380] So the whole business of learning to move funnily just sort of drifted towards me, partly because Chapman was a wonderful mime.

[381] And when we were on the floor rehearsing, he would do all sorts of things.

[382] He would do very funny impersonations of animals.

[383] And then he and I would be giraffes.

[384] Do you see what I mean?

[385] And then we'd be ice skaters.

[386] taught me how to slide my foot so that it looks at it.

[387] So I think being around him got me interested in it, and I had a certain sort of rhythm, nothing to do with being able to dance, but a rhythm that enabled me to make the movements in a sort of very correct style.

[388] I could learn how to drive a golf ball or how to play an off drive or how to play a backhand.

[389] And I think those two types of timing seem to kind of come together and help each other.

[390] Some of my strongest favorite images next to Marks Brothers, up there with Marks Brothers, W .C. Fields, you know, early comedy and the comedy of Peter Sellers is that your performance in Ministry of Silly Walks or when the famous German episode of Don't Mention the War episode of Faulty Towers, your physical comedy is absolutely stunning and completely absurd and wild.

[391] And it's in my head right now.

[392] I think I think about it.

[393] It pops into my head once every two, or three weeks.

[394] And it's very erotic when it does, I'll tell you.

[395] Oh, God.

[396] What?

[397] I used to love people who could do what they call eccentric dancing.

[398] Yes.

[399] You know what I mean?

[400] There were three people called Wilson, Cappell and Betty, and they used to be in our music hall, in our vaudeville, and they would come on stage, and they had this sort of pits and a sand pit, and they were dressed as Egyptians, and they would just get into the pit, and just start making funny movements, sort of slightly like hieroglyphs.

[401] And I've seen people get completely hysterical watching them.

[402] And they're not saying anything at all.

[403] It's just the sheer absurdity of it.

[404] But I was always drawn to people who could move in that wonderful eccentric way, like Groucho Marx is a wonderful example.

[405] And when you think how skillful WC Fields is, I mean, the sketch that he does at the pool table, which he shot several times.

[406] but, I mean, it's terminally skillful and terribly creative.

[407] You couldn't think of that, really.

[408] You'd only have to stumble across it when you were fooling around.

[409] So anybody who could do things that were physically clever attracted me, and I suppose I slowly learned how to do some of them.

[410] You're very tall, and I'm tall as well, and I always knew that because I was tall and lean, there was certain things that I could do that really popped in comedy.

[411] My physicality was kind of silly.

[412] I have a very long legs like a crane, and then I have a short, I have the torso of about a three -year -old girl, a very short torso.

[413] And because of that, if I pull my pants up a little bit and use my long legs, and I realize this is just, I could really make people laugh, and it was just because of the body I was given.

[414] And I think there is a kind of tall person physical comedy that I'm sure I've borrowed a lot from you, which I just, watching you move very rapidly, very manically, or maniacally, just was something that if you had a smaller body, it would not have been as funny.

[415] What I love about that kind of stuff is that it's funny, as you were saying earlier, but it's hard to say exactly why.

[416] Some of the funniest things that Python had done, like the fish slapping darts, I always make a joke that in future some poor student of media stuff, studies will have to write an essay on what it means.

[417] Yeah, I think it's when my least favorite conversation is when people want to dissect why something's funny, because I think what's that famous line, the only way to dissect something is to kill it.

[418] But, you know, that's the problem in comedy is that I don't want someone to explain to me why I have, and it's the same thing with music.

[419] There's just certain, obviously, songs that really move me. when something's really funny, I don't want it discussed too much.

[420] There's a certain amount of analysis that's kind of fun and helpful, and then you just got to stop and say, my God, that gave me a lot of joy and I'm not going to think about it anymore.

[421] I think that's right.

[422] I think sometimes it's fun to talk about it, provided you don't take it too seriously.

[423] And if you start trying to figure out principles which you then use when you are actually trying to write funny stuff, it just doesn't work.

[424] It has to come really from inside, And anything original, as it says in the book, comes from the unconscious.

[425] So it's by playing around without any particular aim that you hit on something.

[426] It was very silly.

[427] I mean, when Graham and I wrote the sketch about the man who had three buttocks.

[428] It doesn't mean anything.

[429] But it's just so silly.

[430] I remember you were talking about people who want to try and find meanings and think.

[431] I remember coming off stage after a show one time.

[432] And Michael and I had just done the dead parrot sketch.

[433] And this very intense young man said, can I, Mr. Cleeseman?

[434] I asked you something.

[435] And I said, yes, he said, the parrot sketch.

[436] It is about the Vietnam War, isn't it?

[437] By the way, always my assumption.

[438] You got that, did you?

[439] Yes, I did.

[440] Yes.

[441] Some people thought it was about the charge of the Light Brigade, but he just chose it.

[442] No, I always got it.

[443] It's that reference at the end to the Tet Offensive that made me realize, oh, okay, it's the Vietnam War.

[444] Incidentally, did you see President Trump was saying that the flu epidemic of 1918 had been instrumental in causing the end of the Second World War?

[445] Did you notice that?

[446] I don't know what it's like for you on your island, but here in America, the only way to survive is to tune some of this stuff out.

[447] So, no. It's up there with Wagner's music music is much better than it sounds.

[448] He might be our best comedian right now, working.

[449] When he's talking, I do get hysterical with my laughter because it's so wonderful meaningless.

[450] Well, that must be nice not to be a citizen here.

[451] Must be really fun for you.

[452] I have daughters in America, so I don't say I don't have my moments of terror.

[453] You know, one of the things that I think, your targets, you chose things that people hadn't really thought of as fertile comedy ground before.

[454] Say, I don't know, the crucifixion of Christ.

[455] And not other people were saying now, here we go.

[456] We did think, when we thought of doing life of Brian, we do think this is relatively uncharted to us.

[457] There's so much beautiful comedy moments in it and I one of my favorites is when you as the as the Roman centurion find Brian writing um you know basically uh anti Roman graffiti on a wall and then you think okay I would never have seen this turn coming in a million years and I still think it's one of my one of the most brilliant turns in comedy you're the heavy you've caught him he's now he's screwed and you are very stern with him and you tell him that his Latin is wrong and then you spend 36 hours making or all night making him get it right which means covering all of Rome with horrible graffiti and and that's had to have come from your education which is oh my god Latin declensions oh my God this is the worst I like Latin you see because I think I was quite a scared little kid party because my mother was fairly psychotic.

[458] And I think what happened was that when I realized that you've got more marks from maths in Latin than anything else, I just figured out that I'd try and become good at those.

[459] And they're very simple, logical subjects.

[460] You just have to learn rules and apply them.

[461] Do you see what I mean?

[462] And most of the other subjects just need to be out of control.

[463] And I was kind of almost scared of them.

[464] And that's why I got into Cambridge, I think, because I went down the science.

[465] route without anyone ever saying to me that I had any creative ability at all, you know.

[466] For example, when I was 15, I was told to write an essay on the subject of time.

[467] And I wrote a good full -length essay on the fact that I had not had time to write the essay.

[468] Do you see what I mean?

[469] That makes people giggle.

[470] When I handed it into the master, he just said to me, please, this isn't a proper essay.

[471] And I think that's exactly how the playfulness is quite kindly extracted from us while we're at school.

[472] Well, I think you've found this too.

[473] I found it from thousands and thousands of hours of being in, you know, in front of audiences talking to people.

[474] And I found that the mistakes are golden.

[475] You can't, there's a part of the brain that's like a schoolmaster that's saying, that's shooting down ideas way too quickly.

[476] just before they have a chance to grow that's very rigid and I know myself that's a weakness of mine is that I am very judgmental with myself and with others and sometimes I can kill an idea way too quickly because I have well there's no better word than judgmental very judgmental like nope that's no good and I want to kill it rather than no no no stop play with this idea for a minute let's see where it goes if it's nothing it's nothing but let go Yeah.

[477] If it's nothing, it's nothing and it doesn't matter.

[478] And that's why I keep saying when you're being creative, before you bring your critical faculty in later, to decide whether what you've come up with is any good.

[479] That's the later state.

[480] In the stage, when you're just having fun, there's no such thing as a mistake any more than you would say to some children who were playing together.

[481] No, you've got that wrong.

[482] That was a mistake.

[483] Well, it's true in writers' rooms, as you know, people can go off on wide.

[484] tangents and one of my favorite places to be is in a writer's room and I'll go on a wild very inappropriate tangent we're all having a wonderful time and laughing and then I think well we can't do that and sometimes some of the room says well wait a minute yes some of it you can't do on television but you know and I was just playing I'm just playing or the other writers were just playing that that's the strange thing is that it's it's learning to be less rigid about letting that part of you go.

[485] Yeah, less conventional.

[486] And you were reminded me then of something that I'd forgotten many years.

[487] When we were writing, you see, the Python team, Fivis, used to write, excuse me, for David Frost's show.

[488] And we would often come up with Python ideas before Python even existed.

[489] And the producer -director was a lovely guy called Jimmy Gilbert, would say, It's very funny boys, but they won't get it in Bradford, meaning a whole industrial town.

[490] And this became, they'll never get that in Bradford.

[491] And in fact, what we did was, when we started to play, we kind of took the attitude, well, maybe there'll be somebody in Bradford.

[492] That's right.

[493] Well, in America, it'll never play in Peoria.

[494] That's right.

[495] That's right.

[496] Our Bradford is Peoria, and there is something about divorcing yourself from making you and your group of people that you're doing the comedy with delightfully happy and not worrying too much, how are people going to feel about it?

[497] And that is another thing is you need to anesthetize the part of your brain that's so worried about what's everyone going to think.

[498] You need to almost put that part to sleep and say, we love this.

[499] We absolutely love this, and maybe we'll put this out there.

[500] And it's not our business what people think of it.

[501] Yes, I think that's right, provided some people, enough people think it's funny.

[502] I mean, it's hard for anybody now to believe this.

[503] But when we started Monty Pass in 1969, we had no idea what the viewing figure was.

[504] There was a thing about the appreciation index, and they'd ask a few people.

[505] And if that was high, it usually meant it was a good quality program.

[506] But all we ever wanted to do was to try to be.

[507] funny and we always hope there'd be enough people out there to justify them giving us the money for the next series.

[508] But it was as simple as that.

[509] We never thought it was going to catch on.

[510] We knew it was quite strange and the head of the comedy department thought it was absolutely awful.

[511] He cornered the director in an elevator after about four shows and said, what is this Monty Python thing?

[512] Is it supposed to be funny?

[513] I think he's absolutely terrible.

[514] That was the guy in charge of the department, you know.

[515] But we found that the whole way through.

[516] And what I find now is with TV executives that the poor deluded creatures think they know what they're doing, you know?

[517] And they've not idea what they're doing.

[518] But the trouble is they think they do, and that's what gives them confidence, whereas they never seem to go to anybody who's actually done something and made audiences laugh and say to them, do you think this will work?

[519] And of course, we are far better qualified to judge on those things than they are.

[520] It's part of the system that a lot of people are paid to have opinions.

[521] And so they need to have, they need to have them.

[522] Yes, that's right.

[523] I've got a big desk.

[524] I remember, I had an experience with Disney.

[525] I had co -written a film with a lovely guy called Kurt Domeko, and it was based on a Roald Dahl story called The Twit.

[526] So we were very happy with the first draft and the woman, I think her name was Nina Jacobson, and sent to us, you're 70, 75 % of the way here.

[527] We don't get first drafts like this.

[528] And we got six notes, and we went away, rewrote it.

[529] And when we got back, they were looking for new writers.

[530] He was really astonished.

[531] And I went in and, see, she said, well, you ignore some notes we said.

[532] Well, we did ignore the notes, but I didn't know they'd come from her.

[533] I thought they'd come from the producers who had no idea what they were talking about.

[534] So we ignore them completely.

[535] And she said, well, I want this done and this done and this done and this done.

[536] And I said to her, absolutely honestly, I said, I don't think I can do that.

[537] And she said, well, why not?

[538] And I said, well, I don't think I know how to make it worse.

[539] I'd be sitting there making it better.

[540] That's not what you want.

[541] Well, I'm sure that meeting ended very nicely.

[542] And they brought some more writers in, and it's now somewhere in the vaults are working tightly.

[543] It was, of course, never made.

[544] And it's probably the funniest thing that Kirk and I ever wrote together.

[545] You know, it's fantastic that you talk about whenever you have a meeting in Los Angeles where someone says we love it, this is fantastic.

[546] I can't imagine this being any better.

[547] You know you're screwed.

[548] You know you're absolutely screwed.

[549] Well, what's the best thing they can say?

[550] What's the most encouraging thing they can say?

[551] probably uh and it's something that rings of truth would be would be fantastic you know if if you if i heard a little bit of and also you know encouragement mixed with uh some kind of because i've always trust i really listen to people when when they uh have a nuanced view i think i you know whenever someone's just like this is bafo i love it yeah i and i think that's a great line, I think Nathaniel, it might be, I hope I'm not misquoting, but it might be Nathaniel West in Day of the Locust, but he said L .A. is, I think he said L .A. is the only town where you can die of encouragement.

[552] Everybody's clapping you on the back and telling you you're the best, and then you realize your career's over, and no one told you.

[553] That's funny.

[554] You know, I did want to ask you, we're going to wrap this up, because I, but you had a wonderful definition of humor that you came across and it's by the philosopher Henri Bergson.

[555] I can read it to you because I know after talking to me for 45 minutes you probably have very little gray matter left.

[556] Well, I've reduced him to a puddle of pudding.

[557] He's done.

[558] He's done.

[559] Come on to Cogman.

[560] I want to know about Henry Biggman.

[561] My dream is John Cleese calling me Cognin for the rest of my life.

[562] Here we go.

[563] He said, defined humor as a social sanction against inflexible behavior.

[564] And I love that.

[565] I absolutely love that.

[566] And I think your career and your work, I mean, you've followed through on that quest, very nicely.

[567] I want to make sure I tell people this book, John Cleese, Creativity, a short and cheerful guide, is the best, concise, I would say, discussion of what creative.

[568] creativity is, how it works, and how it can be applied.

[569] This is not a book for comedy writing.

[570] That's the other thing I love about it.

[571] It's just about being creative.

[572] And the one thing I wanted to mention that's been important to me all my life and that you brought up in this book and it blew me away, you say fear and anxiety at the outset, getting nervous is sadly an important ingredient.

[573] And I have always found that to be true.

[574] I've, I've had struggles with anxiety, but when I need to write a speech, or I need to write a sketch, or I need to write something important, there's a nervousness that I feel, and it actually turns into fuel that helps me sit down and get to work.

[575] It's a form of energy, isn't it?

[576] If you don't let that overcome you, and if you think that this is, you know, this is because I don't know if I can do it today.

[577] Somebody he told me once that Claude Monet, oh, sorry, Monet, Claude Monet, the French impression.

[578] Claude Monet.

[579] When he was about 80, he'd go out to paint and his hand would shake because he wasn't sure if he could do it today.

[580] And when you're doing anything creative, you don't know if it's going to happen today.

[581] Do you see what I mean?

[582] If you're an actor, you fall back on technique, even though you're not feeling much, your technique is good enough.

[583] The audience doesn't notice.

[584] But if you're trying to come up with it.

[585] something in the writing realm, it may not happen.

[586] You may have the blank sheets of paper at the end of the day.

[587] The important thing is to know that's part of the routine.

[588] Some days it comes, some days just sit there.

[589] But don't take anxiety too seriously because it's because you cannot guarantee that you can do it on any one given day.

[590] There's also something neurological.

[591] We don't understand it, but Hemingway used to say, I've got about two good hours in me a day and you have to, you have to, this isn't fun for people to hear, but you have to give this creative process that you describe in the book, time.

[592] So if you leave it to the very last minute, the chances that you're going to just come up with everything you need is probably nil.

[593] The only trouble is some people get confused about this because they say if it wasn't for deadlines, I'd never write anything.

[594] And what I want to say, yes, but you're writing it in your head before you ever sit down at the desk with a pencil.

[595] That's how a normal coward, one of his best plays in two days because he'd been thinking about it for a year.

[596] So the creative process is going on and on.

[597] Just sometimes you've got to say to a writer, now you have to put it down because he simply has to get it done by a certain day.

[598] You see what I mean?

[599] At that point, he's putting stuff down there, which is the best stuff that is unconscious as accumulations over the previous few months or weeks.

[600] But it's not the deadline that's causing the creativity.

[601] It's the deadline.

[602] It's causing the creativity to actually put down on the paper.

[603] That was rather good, I thought that.

[604] That was very good.

[605] I found that when I was murdering, sometimes I would be murdering and realizing I haven't given this any thought and then I realized no, I stalked this person for a while.

[606] You know, I thought about it.

[607] I thought about where to trap them.

[608] Yeah, you remember story.

[609] Yes, yeah, yeah.

[610] And it was a little subconscious, but I was, you know, driving around in my van and looking for the people and then when the murder happened, it was the culmination of all that thought.

[611] Yes, but I don't get is when you, when these ideas would pop in your head when you were murdering people, it wasn't, it wasn't while you were actually stabbing them, surely.

[612] No, no, no, no, no. While I was stalking, ideas were accumulating about how, and then, yes, we all, I think people are too obsessed with the part of murder where it's the stabbing, and I've always found that to be myself, the boring part.

[613] It's, that's just, you stab them and then the blood comes out and then they're inanimate and and you run away.

[614] But for me, it was the thinking of it.

[615] Yeah.

[616] It was the stalking and the thinking and all the time I put into it.

[617] Yeah, I think that's it.

[618] It's the stalking.

[619] And when I was torturing the small animals, what I would say, I would think, that's sweet reminds me of a song.

[620] Oh, my God.

[621] Well, the book, John Clee's creativity, a short and cheerful guide, And the subtitle is How to Murder is out there.

[622] And just get this book.

[623] And John Cleese, I will say this.

[624] If someone had told me at any point in my life that I would be talking to you about comedy, I'd have said, you're an idiot and then shot myself.

[625] An irrational reaction, but this is a dream come true.

[626] And I'm really delighted.

[627] And I can't wait to join you on your island and spend time with you.

[628] Well, you just come out here, Caird, and then you can tell me all about those wonderful Sherlock Holmes stories of yours.

[629] Okay, again, there's some confusion.

[630] All right, John Cleese, thank you so much, sir.

[631] That was a joy.

[632] Yeah, it was fun, wasn't it?

[633] Normally, we don't try to refer to things visually necessarily on here, but I think that this one is a good reason to sometimes people send in pictures of people.

[634] that look like you, you know, Conan, like whether it's Tilda Swinton or the, is it the Norwegian president?

[635] Finnish.

[636] Finland.

[637] Whenever people find someone I look like, it tends to be either a woman.

[638] Uh -huh.

[639] It's really weird because it's all over the map, but it's either a very attractive woman or the character from the movie Mask or Chuckie.

[640] Oh, come on.

[641] So it's like all over the map.

[642] Oh, you do not look like Rocky Dennis.

[643] Of course you would know the name.

[644] Sorry, Matt, that was so mean.

[645] Hey, look, I'm proud.

[646] I know, you should be.

[647] Well, my hair grew really long during COVID, and someone wrote in online, you look like the kid from mass. Oh, man. And you do not.

[648] At least the women that they're comparing you to are beautiful women.

[649] I think as a woman, I'm striking.

[650] Yeah.

[651] I think as a man, I'm okay.

[652] I think as a woman, I'm a stunner.

[653] Well, how would you feel about being compared to a mailbox?

[654] I'm going to be okay with that.

[655] This is one of the most striking resentments I've ever seen, and we'll put a picture of this up on the Instagram.

[656] It is a dilapidated envelope stuck in the red flag of a mailbox that looks like you.

[657] I'm going to share my screen on there.

[658] Wait, what?

[659] Oh, my God.

[660] Yeah, I see it.

[661] Wait, what?

[662] I see it.

[663] That's the, see, it's the flag is down.

[664] There's an envelope in there that's sort of moldered.

[665] So you can see the curl on the front of the hair.

[666] And then you can see that.

[667] And then there's a sharp chin.

[668] Sharp chin.

[669] I mean like, that's the jaw line down there.

[670] Yeah, he's face.

[671] facing towards the curl, the round part.

[672] Sona's not seeing it.

[673] You're not seeing it.

[674] This is like Jesus and toast.

[675] I feel like this is super clear and kind of divine.

[676] Okay.

[677] This is from Twitter user named Eric Locke.

[678] I saw it right away, but Sona's not seeing it.

[679] That's your profile.

[680] Oh, come on.

[681] Don't you see it?

[682] Is this a bit?

[683] Are you guys doing a bit?

[684] No, that, look, see the, that's the curl in the front.

[685] The front is your hair curl?

[686] Your pump?

[687] Yeah.

[688] And then below that, you sort of see.

[689] I mean, yes, it's a mangled mess underneath.

[690] This is like the white dress, blue dress thing, maybe.

[691] I know, this is crazy.

[692] Yeah, I think you'll either see it or you won't.

[693] I do think that's interesting.

[694] I think this is going to be one of those things where you see it or you don't.

[695] I saw it.

[696] I see it immediately.

[697] You see it, when Gourley sees it immediately, Sona still doesn't see it.

[698] Are we looking at that mangled part on top or the actual bottom part?

[699] No, no, no. The hair is the top.

[700] Okay.

[701] It's like a three -quarter profile.

[702] Sona's freaking out.

[703] She doesn't see it.

[704] Are these your eyes?

[705] I guess that's an eye.

[706] I mean, that's where it's a little messed up.

[707] Yeah, the face is kind of impressionistic.

[708] There's maybe a nose in the middle there, but the hair and the profile and the silhouette.

[709] We'll put this on Team Coco podcast Instagram.

[710] It's as if, I mean, the face.

[711] Yeah, you've got to tune out the face.

[712] It's as if I was in a terrible accident and then Picasso painted me. That's what it, I think.

[713] You got to let the face go.

[714] It's more just what it suggests.

[715] and I think it suggests...

[716] Or it's like if you were in the show Max Headroom.

[717] Maybe.

[718] I don't think anyone listening is going to get that reference.

[719] Take it, all right, take it easy.

[720] Okay, I'm beginning to see it now.

[721] I don't...

[722] I would be nice if it had a mouth, but I get it.

[723] It's the pomp with the sideburn, eyes, nose.

[724] I get it.

[725] You know what?

[726] I get it.

[727] But I'm not sure it's divine.

[728] Divine is also usually attributed to, like, deities.

[729] Yeah, and I was being ironic.

[730] Yeah, like a Jesus or a Virgin Mary crying or something, you know?

[731] I was a virgin for a very long time.

[732] And it made me cry.

[733] So you're saying you and the Virgin Mary are the same.

[734] No, there are similarities.

[735] That's all.

[736] Oh, God.

[737] I don't know.

[738] I mean, I think we're going to have to wait and see what people online say.

[739] Yeah.

[740] You know, do you see it?

[741] Do you not see it?

[742] Maybe we could do a Twitter poll too or like a Team Coke up Instagram poll.

[743] It's not flattering.

[744] I will say that.

[745] No, but it's not meant.

[746] to be it's not it's just your you know it's a resemblance it's an essence yes someone saw that right if that were recovered millions of years from now by an archaeologist it would suggest the figure that was conan do you know what i mean oh you you're saying that archaeologists a million years from now you say whatever they'll know okay the clips will play forever uh -huh and i'll probably be on coinage so oh my god first you compare yourself to the virgin mary now you're saying you're going to be on I had a friend.

[747] I had a friend that was so nerdy that I remember being at a someone's backyard party once.

[748] And this is in high school.

[749] And he took out a handful of coins and he was just dropping them randomly on the lawn at this high school outdoor party.

[750] And they said, what are you doing?

[751] He said, I'm dropping these coins.

[752] It will confuse future archaeologists who will think this was a place of business.

[753] Oh, my God.

[754] Jesus.

[755] Like, what?

[756] Oh, my God.

[757] You're playing a prank that depends on Earth.

[758] archaeologists excavating this place, 800 ,000 years from now, and finding these coins and then saying this was a place of business when they just excavated a 7 -Eleven down the street.

[759] This was your friend?

[760] Very good friend.

[761] Oh.

[762] Still a friend.

[763] Still a friend.

[764] Huh.

[765] It's, you know what it is?

[766] It's the, no. I mean, he was hanging out with me in high school, so he was different.

[767] I always ran with a different crowd.

[768] We were very imaginative.

[769] and we like to confuse, we like to play pranks where the aha moment, the I gotcha moment played out, you know, forwarded 50 ,000 years in the future.

[770] Oh, okay.

[771] Everyone loves a bit where you never see the payoff.

[772] Sometimes I write letters, because you know how I still write letters and I type them out and send them to people.

[773] Sometimes I backday them a few years just to confuse biographers.

[774] Okay.

[775] That's, wow.

[776] I hope when your head's on a coin that they use this image for the coin.

[777] Yeah.

[778] Maybe that'll be the image they use.

[779] I don't know.

[780] We'll see.

[781] You know, we'll see, Garley.

[782] Hey, as long as they're talking about me, it's good publicity.

[783] Trump taught me that.

[784] You don't look like this thing literally.

[785] No, I know.

[786] I understand.

[787] I always went for a certain, easily to depict look.

[788] You know, the sharp cheekbones, the iconic Roman nose, the Paul Newman eyes.

[789] Wow.

[790] Wait, I'm not describing me. I'm describing this guy I saw one.

[791] I think it's cool that someone sees a, mailbox and it and sees you.

[792] That means that you're really in in people's minds a lot.

[793] People think about you.

[794] Okay.

[795] I don't know.

[796] I'm trying.

[797] Conan O 'Brien needs a friend with Sonam Obsessian and Conan O 'Brien as himself.

[798] Produced by me, Matt Goreley.

[799] Executive produced by Adam Sacks, Joanna Solitaroff and Jeff Ross at Team Koko and Colin Anderson and Chris Bannon at Earwolf.

[800] Theme song by The White Stripes.

[801] Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino.

[802] Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples.

[803] The show is engineered by Will Beckton.

[804] You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts and you might find your review featured on a future episode.

[805] Got a question for Conan?

[806] Call the Team Coco hotline at 323 -451 -2821 and leave a message.

[807] It too could be featured on a future episode.

[808] And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O 'Brien needs a friend on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever fine podcasts are downloaded.

[809] This has been a Team Coco production in association with Earwolf.