JRE MMA Show #112 with Don Frye

[0] Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

[1] The Joe Rogan Experience.

[2] Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

[3] Don Fry, it's a goddamn honor and a pleasure.

[4] Hey, partner, thank you.

[5] You know, like I said earlier, first time, first and the only time we met, I insulted you.

[6] I don't remember that.

[7] It was down there in Alabama, right?

[8] That was the early days, right?

[9] Yeah, number 12.

[10] Oh, USC 12.

[11] That was my first one.

[12] Yeah.

[13] What did you say?

[14] Well, we were back.

[15] stage and you know they introduced us and I says you know who this guy is they said and I says yeah he plays that real dumb guy on the news radio show but that's not an insults you look so hurt then I find out I find out you know your character is really actually part of who you are and it's part of the problem it's very it's very close to who I am unfortunately I've been watching you're a smart bastard man I'm impressed I have a good memory I'm not that smart You know what that was going on in a lot of stuff.

[16] I know with some things, some things.

[17] The Bob Lazar stuff?

[18] That's impressive.

[19] Are you interested in UFOs?

[20] Oh, yeah.

[21] A lot of folks in Arizona are interested in UFOs.

[22] They visit there quite a bit, it seems like.

[23] Yeah, there's a, the house that I have, it was built.

[24] I guess the guy who built it, built it so his wife could watch the UFOs over at the mountain there.

[25] Wow, that's a high -maintenance lady.

[26] Yeah, yeah.

[27] Well, they are, aren't they?

[28] But imagine that.

[29] What kind of house you want, honey?

[30] I want a house where I watch UFOs.

[31] I need an observation deck.

[32] That's basically it.

[33] It was like a bunker.

[34] Was it?

[35] Yeah.

[36] Half of it's in the ground and then all the block, you know, you get the big 16 by 8 block, and they're all filled with cement.

[37] There's a lot of weird houses like that.

[38] There's a house for sale in Arizona right now.

[39] It used to be Stephen Seagall's house.

[40] It might still be his house.

[41] selling it but it's bulletproof it's got bulletproof glass it's a compound that guy's a goof he's a silly man he's a fucking goof beyond silly he's a silly man he believes that shit you know who he is i don't know what he believes and what he's just bullshit and it's hard to tell you know oh you can't bullshit that good i mean he's a lousy actor he's a lousy actor how the hell can you pretend to be that you know i mean that's his hustle right his hustle is that he's just like arts guy but you know he's really good at Aikido I'm sure you watch those demonstrations you know if I get a couple pro wrestlers to be my my ukees you know they make me look like a million dollars that's true that is that is what happens right they're all compliant Don how did you when did you you started out was like UFC 8 was that your first fight you know the first in UFC I fought before yeah You fought boxing and kickboxing before that, right?

[42] No kickboxing.

[43] I did boxing.

[44] I think I had eight fights, and I think I was two in six or two, five, and one.

[45] I don't know, because I fought my first two is Don Fry, and I won those, and then I had an argument with my trainer, and so we split.

[46] And then, so then I fought under J .R. Why'd you change your name?

[47] Oh, that was my name growing up.

[48] I was junior, so JR.

[49] And that's how I was in, you know, junior high and high school.

[50] And then, you know, when my dad and mom called me. And then I think I changed my name because of contractual, you know.

[51] Oh, you had some deal with the manager where you had to, yeah, right.

[52] There's a lot of those sneaky deals, huh?

[53] Yeah, but that was more the trainer.

[54] And, you know, I don't know if that was.

[55] Because they were really good guys.

[56] Art Martori was my money guy who, you know, they, the two Munoz, Mike Munoz, and his father, Al, brought me to Art. Art, wrestled at ASU back in the late 60s.

[57] And Art, he's a billionaire, you know, and so he was interested.

[58] And, I mean, he basically funds ASU wrestling.

[59] Oh, really?

[60] Yeah.

[61] Oh, that's nice.

[62] Half his pocket, yeah.

[63] And he's done so much.

[64] for amateur wrestling in the U .S., I mean, he's like the top dog, because he used to have what's called Sun Kist wrestling team, and so that was his baby, and he steamrolled that, and then, like I said, the Munoz brothers, or Mike and his dad, took me to Art, so let's give it a shot.

[65] after he called um jeez the coach said okey state um joe say to double double check on me you know so did you started out wrestling did you wrestle as a young boy no sir when did you start wrestling uh as a freshman in high school and then when did you box uh when i got out college oh so Most of it was, you know, that's fairly late in life to box, right?

[66] Oh, yeah, oh, yeah.

[67] That's why I was two and six.

[68] So when did you hear about the UFC?

[69] I was a fireman, you know.

[70] I just did the boxing and then got out and did certain odd jobs for, you know, a year, year and a half.

[71] And then my wife at that time, we had a couple of horses.

[72] You know, and being a college wrestler, you get a bit of an ego on you.

[73] So I look at, well, hell, I could do that.

[74] So, uh, stir going around with a furrier named Stoney Newfang.

[75] And then Stoney got me interested.

[76] Then I, um, got tired of that.

[77] It wasn't really making good money.

[78] But, you know, for the time, he's giving me five bucks a horse, you know, teach me, you know, pull the shoes, um, shape the shoe, you know, and all that good stuff.

[79] stuff well he he did the technical work on the hooves and then um i said you know somebody told me about being a fireman about you know working 10 days a month you know and had a rest of us so hell that's the job for me you know 10 days a month i can do that you're doing the 24 -hour shifts we just stay there at the firehouse yeah yeah so i got it on the phone called up all the cities in city of Arizona.

[80] Nobody was hiring.

[81] So I called up Santa Fe, New Mexico.

[82] They said, yeah, we're going to run a test.

[83] And so I went over there and tested and passed the test.

[84] And then I went to my buddy, Jerry Packabaw.

[85] He used to go got me into wrestling when I was in high school.

[86] Come over here later, please.

[87] Thank you, sir.

[88] Thank you, sir.

[89] Bring your man. And so then I wouldn't say to Jerry.

[90] Harry's house in Santa Fe, and I went through their, I think it was like a six -month or more academy, you know.

[91] In the fire department?

[92] Really?

[93] Six months?

[94] Yeah.

[95] It was a hell of an academy.

[96] It really was.

[97] And so from there, you thought about fighting?

[98] No, I had already fought.

[99] No, but I mean in the UFC.

[100] Oh, no. From there, we were there a year, year and a half.

[101] Couldn't afford to live there, you know.

[102] You know, in Santa Fe, you're either real rich or real poor.

[103] You know, this is 30 years ago, so I don't know how it is now.

[104] But, um...

[105] Probably similar.

[106] Probably.

[107] Like the whole country now, right?

[108] It's supposed to be nice, though, Santa Fe.

[109] A lot of friends from there.

[110] Beautiful.

[111] Yeah.

[112] You never been?

[113] No, never been.

[114] Oh, you got to go.

[115] I don't even think I've been in New Mexico except driving through once.

[116] Yeah.

[117] Where did you drive through it?

[118] I was a kid.

[119] I don't remember it.

[120] Yeah.

[121] Yeah.

[122] Obviously, you haven't gotten through to see John Jones in.

[123] No, no, Jackson Winklejohn.

[124] I want to go down there and check out the gym, though.

[125] How come you have it?

[126] Just a busy man, Don Fry.

[127] Just a busy man. A lot of places I want to go.

[128] Never been to North Dakota either.

[129] I have.

[130] I bet you have.

[131] Yeah, it's beautiful.

[132] Yeah.

[133] I don't know why I said North Dakota.

[134] I saw the lights, man. That was cool.

[135] Oh, the northern lights?

[136] Yeah.

[137] I want to see that.

[138] Oh, that is so cool, man. That's pretty wild.

[139] Yeah, I did that.

[140] After I had my first neck surgery back in 2000, me and a couple buddies went, did the Amsterdam thing, you know?

[141] And that was real cool.

[142] Saw the lights up there.

[143] Would you have done on your neck?

[144] You have it fused?

[145] Yeah, I had broken it doing pro wrestling and worked on it for a year and a half, not knowing.

[146] Oh, Jesus.

[147] Yeah, but I'd lost.

[148] so much muscle in the right arm, you know, and so that they fixed it, and I had a really nice, we can't remember her name, and I'm talking a lot.

[149] I never talked this much.

[150] That's what the podcast is all about.

[151] Joe, I don't talk this much in the month, man. Well, we can take breaks.

[152] You're doing the hell.

[153] Must be all the, must have we got the right combination of pain bills today, anyway.

[154] So, out of all the injuries that you ever got in your fighting career, was the pro wrestling injuries the worst?

[155] Yeah.

[156] Pro wrestling is probably one of the hardest things that a guy can do athletically.

[157] Yeah.

[158] Because those guys do it every fucking night.

[159] All the guys that I've had in here, you know, The Undertaker, Diamond Dallas Page, all these guys, like, every one of them, when they tell you their stories, you go, Jesus Christ, Jake the Snake.

[160] Those guys are so banged up.

[161] Yeah.

[162] Trying to get Rick Flair.

[163] Oh, I love Rick.

[164] I love Rick.

[165] Working on a Rick.

[166] Yeah, he's a goddamn legend.

[167] So when you first heard about the UFC, so you were a firefighter then?

[168] Well, back to the, back to the, you know.

[169] Like I said, we were in Santa Fe for a year, year and a half, and then couldn't afford to live there.

[170] And so I got on the phone and said, we were.

[171] shit.

[172] You know, we still had horses and still paying ferrier, so, oh, shit, I can do that.

[173] So I found Oklahoma horseshoing school in Oake City.

[174] And so I moved my wife back home to my parents' house, you know, and I went to Oklahoma horseshoe in school for their 12 -week program.

[175] Oh, wow.

[176] And so I did that, and then when I came back to Arizona, Sierra Vista, Hooked up with a guy named, oh, geez, this is going to kill, Tyler Basinger.

[177] Tyler is a magician.

[178] It is a ferrier.

[179] Just a magician.

[180] And he paid me $5 a horse, you know, and fed me lunch.

[181] And, you know, so I was learning how to shoe horses from him, you know, doing the apprenticeship, start my own business.

[182] I got on as a firefighter reserve, you know, a place called Fryfire Department, you know, F -R -Y, no relation to the old man, had an outpost store outside of Fort Wachuka, you know, 150 years ago, and also a whorehouse.

[183] This is like old -school Western shit.

[184] And so then I had, sometime I worked at.

[185] We've had a site facility, too, you know.

[186] A site facility?

[187] Psychological.

[188] Oh, psychological facility?

[189] Yeah.

[190] What'd you do there?

[191] Like, restrain patients?

[192] Yeah.

[193] What's harder?

[194] Horshoeing or restraining patients?

[195] Whershoeing, I broke a kid's arm, so, you know, just a headlock.

[196] You know, they did a breakout where, you know, 20 or 30 of them run off, and then you got to hurt them back in.

[197] Really?

[198] Boy, yeah.

[199] A couple of them act out, and one of the guys had the kid restrained from him from behind, had his arms pin.

[200] The kid started slamming his head into his face.

[201] So I just walked up to the headlock, and he landed, snapped his arm.

[202] Oh, no. Yeah, I kind of put a damp row of things.

[203] Yeah.

[204] Was that the end of your restraining patients?

[205] Yeah, that was in that career.

[206] So how does it make it take it?

[207] wait to the UFC.

[208] Do you remember when you found out about the UFC?

[209] Yeah, I think that was still a year or two before.

[210] So this is like 92, something like that?

[211] Yeah, and then I started doing judo, you know, because I needed, you know, I needed something to do, you know.

[212] Right.

[213] You know, you're 22, 24 years old.

[214] You know, you used to be a college athlete.

[215] You know, you still walk around with an direction you know right i understand and um so i started doing judo and advanced really quickly in that and um so then then we're i got on the bisbee fire department in 94 or 92 yeah yeah shout out to doug stanhope he's the king of bisbee yeah that's what i hear i met him one time did you yeah at the airport oh yeah yeah he says you're a firefighter used to be this shit this was probably 15 18 years ago oh wow and um yeah where the hell in arena so you were talking about when you first heard about the ufc yeah 92 i got on with the busby fire and then we were sitting there watching something on TV and saw Dan, clip of Dan.

[216] Dan Severn?

[217] Uh -huh.

[218] And then he was doing some kind of bodyguard work with that gal who works, well, I'm bad at names sometimes.

[219] I had a stroke, you know, a few years ago.

[220] You did?

[221] Hemorrhagic stroke, yeah, after surgery.

[222] Oh, shit.

[223] So I get lost sometimes.

[224] You can edit this Yeah, it doesn't matter anyway So Dan was doing bodyguard work Yeah for Robin From Who's a radio guy in New York?

[225] Robin Quivers Howard Stern?

[226] Oh really?

[227] No shit And his gray t -shirt Yeah Wow Everybody's in suits And Dan's his great t -shirt And so You know Then we saw Dan fight And I called him up I said fuck You know I said Dan Don Frye, remember me?

[228] Yeah, what are you doing, Don?

[229] I was playing firemen, playing horse shoe, you know.

[230] Can I say this UFC stuff, can you get me in on it?

[231] And he says, yeah.

[232] So he ended up getting me some fights, probably about five or six fights, you know, around the country.

[233] And, you know, the check's still in the mail, you know.

[234] Was this pre -UFC?

[235] Yeah, yeah.

[236] Oh, so you fought MMA before the UFC?

[237] Oh, it was a warehouse fight.

[238] Yeah, I'm on the MMA, is an HB.

[239] Right, right.

[240] So, right, and HB is what they called it back then.

[241] Yeah, no holds barred.

[242] So you wear shoes, you do whatever you want.

[243] Was it bare knuckle?

[244] Yeah, yeah.

[245] In your day, and even in the UFC 8, you were still allowed to fight bare knuckle.

[246] Yeah, yeah.

[247] But I wore gloves because I hit hard.

[248] Yeah.

[249] You know?

[250] Yeah, smart.

[251] Gloves aren't made to protect your face.

[252] Right.

[253] They're made to protect my hands.

[254] Who's the first guy to wear gloves in the UFC?

[255] Tank.

[256] Yeah.

[257] Smart.

[258] Smart move.

[259] He hits hard.

[260] He hits hard.

[261] Holy shit, I remember your fight with Tank.

[262] What a fucking fight that was.

[263] My God.

[264] And it didn't make top 10 of the one -round fights.

[265] Oh, I have no idea why it doesn't.

[266] Well, it's because there's so many great fights.

[267] It's arbitrary.

[268] Who makes top 10?

[269] But I think it should have been in there.

[270] That was a classic.

[271] Nobody knows.

[272] Nobody knows anything about UFC 100 and be a war.

[273] Oh, I do.

[274] Oh, you do, Joe.

[275] All that shit.

[276] And you were there.

[277] I was there.

[278] But the new fans.

[279] Yeah, they should go back because that's the history of the sport.

[280] I always tell people we knew more about martial arts after four years of the UFC than had been done in 400 years.

[281] Right.

[282] We knew more.

[283] We knew what worked and what didn't work.

[284] We saw so many different things.

[285] So many different things.

[286] Like by the time 97 rolled around, we, they had figured out.

[287] First of all, they realized wrestling is the most important thing.

[288] Yeah.

[289] It's the most important thing.

[290] Well, it's like a street fight two and a half hours every day.

[291] You know, it really is.

[292] It is, yeah.

[293] And it's just the ability to take a guy down.

[294] If you look at, somebody posted it, it might have been Adam Hunter on his page.

[295] I think it was on his Instagram page.

[296] He posted the amount of champions per discipline.

[297] You know, it showed like jujitsu, kickboxing, all the different, and then wrestling.

[298] It's number one.

[299] Right.

[300] Number one.

[301] All the different disciplines, that's the most important discipline.

[302] Well, it's the hardest thing to do because there's, I mean, you're doing it every day in high school, every day in college, and there's no excuses, you know.

[303] And the most mentally tough, too.

[304] Yeah.

[305] Because, first of all, they're cut in weight.

[306] They're cutting weight the day of the event.

[307] They're competing, dehydrated and exhausted.

[308] And wrestlers amongst all athletes that have ever met take pride in being miserable.

[309] Yeah.

[310] They really do.

[311] Yeah, here it is.

[312] It is Adam.

[313] Adam Hunter put it up there.

[314] Look at that.

[315] 28 professional champions from wrestling.

[316] The second place is Brazilian Jiu -Jitsu.

[317] The third place is boxing and then kickboxing below that.

[318] Muay Thai.

[319] And then two taekwondo and one karate.

[320] It's amazing.

[321] All right, but the Jiu -Jitsu, how many of those champions were in the first few years?

[322] Right, right.

[323] As soon as we figured it out.

[324] Well, now everybody does everything.

[325] But I still think that base is the most important base.

[326] The wrestling base Because a dominant wrestler A guy like a Daniel Cormier A guy like a John Jones A guy who's an elite wrestler They have that advantage over everybody If shit gets weird They can take the guy down At any time Or if they just decide to impose their will They could take the guy down Or if you want to take them down Because they're striking They're out striking you You can't because they're wrestling so good It's just such a giant advantage Sprong snap your head into the mat But you were one of the first guys To enter the UFC that had they look like real polished skills when you came out guns blazing you won your first fight by first round knockout and I remember watching on TV I'm like that motherfucker can fight like because you're seeing people that a lot of times you're seeing folks that probably shouldn't have been there like there was back in the day like you remember the early days there was guys that were like they trained in ninjitsu they were practicing like karate chopping people on the top of the heads and all kinds of wacky shit shit you never heard of it right but when I saw you I was like Okay, that guy's an actual fighter.

[327] And when you see the way you were throwing punches and your wrestling ability and you're, and you were a good size, too.

[328] You weren't too big, you weren't too small.

[329] Right.

[330] You probably waited like, what, 210, something like that?

[331] Yeah, it was 05, 205, but I said 210 because.

[332] Sound better?

[333] Well, I knew I was going to gain weight through that year, you know, because.

[334] That was the plan?

[335] Yeah, I was a fireman and I was shooting horses in Arizona.

[336] You know, you're working six, seven days a week.

[337] you know and I knew as soon as I gave it up you know 10 pounds I'm gonna come on real fast Right right and everybody was chasing That was when Mark Coleman And UFC 12 was when Mark Coleman became the champion When he beat Dan 7 And Mark was 265 pounds He was a monster He was a fucking gorilla Like people forget He had everybody gaining weight Yeah everybody gained weight when they saw the hammer They're like Fuck I got no choice Yeah, you had to.

[338] He shot that power double.

[339] And that was the headbutt days, too.

[340] Yeah, yeah.

[341] When Mark would get on top of you and get control of you and start smashing his head into your face, those are quick nights.

[342] It wasn't fun, yeah.

[343] No. Because Dan started that, and then I did it, and then Mark did it.

[344] Yep.

[345] You know, and somehow Mark became the grandfather of it, so I guess I'm a great grandfather and Dan's great -great -grandfather.

[346] Of ground and pound.

[347] Yeah.

[348] Yeah.

[349] It was a real wake -up call for a lot of people.

[350] But so was the Jiu -Jitsu, right?

[351] When Hoist Gracie tapped Dan Severin, that was a wake -up call for a lot of people.

[352] Like, how the fuck is he doing that off his back with his legs?

[353] That was, that, the, the Gracie's they changed martial arts the world over.

[354] Yep, you know.

[355] Yeah, I think they're the most important family in the history of all martial arts.

[356] Yeah, I mean, that was their plan, you know, and it was a great plan.

[357] The whole thing, what was brilliant about it, it was like a paid info, Yeah.

[358] It was.

[359] You paid for.

[360] You know.

[361] You paid $20.

[362] You know, you laugh at it now.

[363] Back then, 20 bucks was a lot of money.

[364] But, you know, you paid $20 to sit there and watch an infomercial.

[365] But it was brilliant.

[366] Brilliant.

[367] It's so exciting.

[368] When you had your first fight, you had your first fight in the UFC, once it was over, once you won, were you like, okay, this is what I'm doing now?

[369] Yeah, yeah.

[370] I won that, and I'm like, you know, I love this.

[371] This is fun.

[372] Back to being competitive, you know.

[373] Because my athletic career was like this, you know.

[374] It really was.

[375] Ups and downs.

[376] Yeah, you know, I'd get burned out and walk away, you know.

[377] And you got a real short attention span, I guess.

[378] But when you saw what the UFC was, where you could take guys down or you'd take guys down, could stand up with him strike it was it was such a unique thing that just appealed to you yeah because i wasn't afraid to get punched in the face right that helps yeah it does for sure yeah because there's a lot of wrestlers they go in there and the bam you get hit in the bridge of the nose it changes your opinion real fast everything on joe yeah your eyes water up yeah it's an uncomfortable feeling now did you think at that point in time that this was something that you this was going to be a real sport because a lot of people weren't sure if it was going to last back that like UFC 8 when you you entered it was like it was still kind of crazy was when I came around was UFC 12 and they were banned from pay -per -view on everything except direct TV direct TV was the only people that had them on you couldn't get it on cable anymore because boxing was in cahoots with John McCain yeah Budweiser and all that stuff and they were yeah that guy's dirty was he dirty oh yeah he's gone now rest in peace yeah he um you know he he was a paid boxing advisor to don king you know the guy didn't know what the fuck he was dead no you know so when this came around it was beating boxing like you said and so don king said hey put the boots to this you know that's what happened i mean his wife you know was the head of himy distributing you know you henley beer but otherwise beer yeah Oh, that makes sense.

[379] But I knew he did something with Budweiser, and that had a big impact on it.

[380] We married Budweiser, yeah.

[381] That had a big impact on how the UFC was, whether or not it was legal, because they started banning it from everywhere.

[382] Yeah, that was the big joke, is after the fights, you can go to the hospital or you go to the after party.

[383] But number three is you can go to jail, too.

[384] Right, yeah.

[385] We didn't know.

[386] We didn't know if we were going to come out and get slug.

[387] lapping cuffs and hauled away, you know, or they're going to let us finish the event and then arrest everybody?

[388] Do you remember when Dan fought Ken Shamrock?

[389] I think it was in Denver, and they told them they couldn't punch the face and close fists?

[390] There was some kind of crazy law where they couldn't punch with Detroit.

[391] Was it Detroit?

[392] Yes, sir.

[393] Was it Michigan?

[394] Yes, you see nine.

[395] Oh, okay.

[396] And everybody was going, what the fuck is going on?

[397] Like, they were told before the event that they can't punch with closed fists.

[398] Right.

[399] There was so many crazy rules like that.

[400] When I, the first event I did was supposed to be in New York.

[401] It was supposed to be, I think it was supposed to be in Albany.

[402] Albany or Buffalo?

[403] I think Albany.

[404] Was it Buffalo?

[405] Maybe Albany.

[406] But it was upstate New York somewhere.

[407] And then it got moved last minute to Doth in Alabama.

[408] And that's where I met you.

[409] Yeah.

[410] Yeah.

[411] That was UFC 12.

[412] That's when Vitor made his debut, fought Trey Tellegman.

[413] And that was when Mark calls.

[414] Bowman fought Dan.

[415] There was a lot of great fights on the card.

[416] You know, Trey Talleyman was tough.

[417] I mean, just not to be missing a breast, you know?

[418] Yeah, missing one peck built like a tank.

[419] Yeah, a breast.

[420] Sorry, Trey.

[421] He fought Scott Farozo, too.

[422] That was a tournament that night.

[423] Vitor won the tournament.

[424] 19 years old.

[425] Yeah, amazing.

[426] Lightning bolt, that guy was.

[427] He was amazing.

[428] He believed he's going to fight Oscar de Aloha?

[429] Really?

[430] Yeah, he's going to have a boxing match, September 11th, with Oscar de la Jolla.

[431] You got to think that guy was fighting, I mean, well, so was Oscar.

[432] I mean, Oscar was a world champion in 97.

[433] And here it is, 97, and Vitor makes his rock -to -in debut.

[434] Was he born?

[435] Was he even born in 97?

[436] Oscar?

[437] Oscar's in his 40s.

[438] No, Vitor?

[439] Vitor.

[440] So, Oscar's a little older than Vitor, I believe.

[441] I believe Oscar's like 48 or something like that.

[442] It's crazy.

[443] You've seen these guys still getting after it.

[444] after all these years I'd like to you'd like to if your body would hold up I'm gonna go down there to Columbia and do the bio accelerator you know and the plan on that is do that and hopefully you know make you come back really shit shit you know I love it shit yeah I mean I'd love to fight Nagano and Gano yeah really?

[445] Yeah he's amazing yeah Wouldn't it be better to fight someone your age?

[446] Why?

[447] They don't have the belt, do they?

[448] No, so you'd want to fight someone with the belt, even at your age.

[449] That's why you're Don Frye, because you think like that.

[450] If I get my back fixed up, I'm there, but me. What's going on with their back right now?

[451] Hell, I've had probably five major, five or six major back surgeries, and then probably related 15 to 20.

[452] related you know because infections and things like that and uh yeah and the infections tried to get me a couple of times and staff mercer yeah staff i had one one time i had inside the spinal cord you know or twice actually twice and the damn is your back yeah Jesus Christ don that looks like a roller coaster ride how many discs do you have fused I don't know if it's 11th disc or 11 vertebrae.

[453] How many vertebrae does a human have?

[454] 20 some.

[455] So you got half of them are fused.

[456] Wow, give me some pictures.

[457] Let me see these.

[458] Look at that lower left.

[459] Oh, Jesus Christ.

[460] Look at that lower left one over your back.

[461] Holy fuck, Don.

[462] Yeah, you're going to put a zipper on it.

[463] Jesus Christ.

[464] That is crazy.

[465] Crazy.

[466] So they just went in and did the whole back all in once.

[467] That's some wooling shit.

[468] No. No, what happened is, um...

[469] Whoa, so that's the infection.

[470] Is that why you...

[471] It was after the infection.

[472] Yeah, they're draining it, and they had to leave it open for a week.

[473] Oh, boy.

[474] So that the plastic surgeon could figure out how to connect it, because I was out of connective tissue, it was all scar tissue.

[475] So he left it open for a week.

[476] He had to cut it.

[477] Pull, cut it, pull, cut it, pool, you know.

[478] Wow, that is wild.

[479] So is this mostly from pro wrestling, or is it from everything?

[480] I would say everything.

[481] I mean, you know, as a fireman, as a horseshoer, you know.

[482] Jamie, go back to three pictures, the one that shows the neck and the back, that one.

[483] Look at that.

[484] So you've got a few that are just hanging in there, and then you've got your neck fused.

[485] That is goddamn wild.

[486] Well, that's, it goes all the way down the crack of my ass.

[487] My ass track goes from my balls up to my shoulder blades.

[488] Wow, that is crazy.

[489] So it's just all scar tissue in there and bolts and screws and plates.

[490] Yeah, so if I can go down there, Columbia, and get, you know, the stem cell.

[491] You might have to live there for a few years.

[492] Just have to shoot you up every day.

[493] Yeah.

[494] Who knows?

[495] You know, I'm a big fan of stem cells.

[496] They can do some wild shit down there.

[497] Yeah.

[498] I know a lot of guys have gone to that bioaccelerator thing and that facility down there and had a really good result.

[499] Yeah, I'm excited about it.

[500] Look at me, I'm giddy.

[501] I can already sit still.

[502] Have you had any stem cells before?

[503] No, sir.

[504] No, sir.

[505] They can do amazing stuff, but, you know, that's a lot of, there's a lot going on there.

[506] Yeah, you know, they're going to do my shoulders too because I have partial replacements in my shoulders.

[507] What do you got going on there?

[508] Like resurfaced?

[509] No, I just warm out.

[510] You said partial replacements?

[511] Yeah.

[512] Did they resurface the shoulders?

[513] Is that what they did?

[514] Yes, sir.

[515] Just, you know, cut the end off, you know, and it stuck the one thing and just with the knob and the other side is all natural bone.

[516] Right, yeah.

[517] Because they said if they do a full replacement, you can't use them.

[518] They're no good.

[519] Oh, really?

[520] You can't put stress on them?

[521] Yeah, so I said, the hell with that.

[522] I want to, you know, I want to do something.

[523] Right.

[524] Are you able to work out now?

[525] Not yet.

[526] I just had this done.

[527] This right one was done in 17, I think, December 17.

[528] This one just got done last December.

[529] When did you get your first surgery after fighting?

[530] How many years in were you?

[531] After fighting?

[532] Like what you mean during fighting, during your career?

[533] Oh, during fighting.

[534] Yeah.

[535] Hell.

[536] Because everybody's out of surgery.

[537] Right.

[538] I've never met a single fighter.

[539] Maybe I have and I forgot, but most fighters that I know is had something blow out.

[540] Right.

[541] You know?

[542] Well, I think in 2001 was when they did my neck.

[543] So that was the first one.

[544] Yeah, because I did that from pro wrestling, the war.

[545] You know, because I did the UFC in 96, and then in 97 I was hired by Antonio Inoki and Masasaito to do New Japan Pro.

[546] wrestling and um brad ragan's um he's a cousin of brock lesnar second cousin so he called he called up jeff you know because brad took fourth in the olympics to 76 in greco robin and then he was on the team in 80 um when and he was going to be the gold medal winner and he had beaten the gold medal winner in 76 but they were doing the point system then you know so he got screwed out of them what's the point system oh uh you get changed so many points so many points for advancing so many points for a pin so many points for you know uh point win so they changed it yeah so they went they went back to the normal i mean amateur wrestling fucks around so much you know with the rules and so does judo have Have you paid attention to the PFL at all?

[547] No, I have not.

[548] I was watching that today.

[549] I was watching it in the gym while I was working out.

[550] And they have, it's interesting, they have real good fighters over there, some real good fighters.

[551] But they have some wacky thing that they do where you get a certain amount of points for a submission, certain amount of points for a knockout, and then you move ahead.

[552] Right.

[553] But it's like you're scoring.

[554] Like, so it goes, and they call it the playoffs, and then you're moving towards this eventual million -dollar tournament that they put together.

[555] that's how they're doing it with judo and with amateur wrestling yeah but their thing is weird they're the way they have it set up like if you win but if you win in the first round you get extra points if you win you know if you miss weight you lose a point so they have uh it's a it's a it's a hard to follow so even for someone like me is a big fan of the sport i can't follow their system i'm like you got great fighters but you're confusing the shit out of people with this wacky system yeah well you miss weight you're has to be gone I think that's a good call I think you should not be able to fight or I think there should be some major penalty because a lot of these guys are choosing to miss weight they're choosing to miss weight they're like I don't want to do this fuck it but you could but you know that's going to drain you and so they choose to come in a pound or too heavy and then they feel a lot better the next day right because you know better than anybody they have a better chance of winning too yeah better chance of winning because they're not as drained a lot of these guys are cutting a true I wish there was no weight cutting.

[556] That's what I really wish.

[557] I wish you got down to a healthy weight and you fought at whatever weight you're at and they just figured out what the weight classes could be to make it so that there's more options.

[558] Make it every 10 pounds.

[559] Something like that.

[560] Like boxing has it.

[561] But I think with MMA, I think the weight classes are too wide.

[562] You know, you got 85 and then you got 205.

[563] That's crazy.

[564] That's 20 pounds.

[565] To have two weight classes separated by 20 pounds is just fucking nuts to me. I think it should be, I would love it.

[566] It was five pounds, but I think 10 pounds is fine.

[567] 10 pounds is workable.

[568] You know, you could adjust your diet, adjust your training habits, do a little extra running, whatever you've got to do.

[569] Right.

[570] But more than that.

[571] But then you get into what happened to pro boxing.

[572] You end up having 80 champions, you know.

[573] That's what the argument against it is, right?

[574] But the thing about pro boxing is, you know, you have all these different organizations.

[575] You got the WBC, WBA, IBO, you know, all that shit.

[576] But with the UFC, if they just kept it in the UFC, just with the UFC and made all these different weight classes, one every 10 pounds, I think is very doable.

[577] Yeah.

[578] Yeah.

[579] And it'd be a lot more opportunities for guys to go up and wait or down and wait and fight, you know, have champion versus champion fights.

[580] Like when Israel Adasanya fought Yobuahovic, you know, you got your middleweight champion fight and your light heavyweight champion, the size difference is so big.

[581] Right.

[582] It's a giant size difference.

[583] well that's why they need a super heavyweight yeah i think so too yeah i mean that's why cut it off at 285 yeah it's crazy it's ridiculous it is ridiculous you have so many uh good fighters that are heavier i mean roulon gardner yeah like roulon gardner is like a 300 pounder oh ericsson yeah tom ericsson yeah he was like a 300 pounder right he was when in his prime people forgot about tom erics he's frightening shit he was terrifying uh elite wrestler who could knock you the fuck out and he was huge and he moved like a cat in his prime Tom Erickson was one of the scariest specimens to ever compete in MMA he was a fucking gigantic man who moved so good but he's another one doesn't like getting punched in the face though yeah who does I can have enjoyed well you're you're an unusual guy Don Fry so when you first fought and you decided okay this is what I'm going to do when the UFC was taken off, you stayed in the UFC for a few years and then went over to Pride.

[584] When did you find out about Pride?

[585] No, I stayed in the UFC one year.

[586] Only one year?

[587] Yeah, 96.

[588] And then I went to pro wrestling.

[589] Oh, really?

[590] Yeah.

[591] Yeah.

[592] So all your fights in the UFC were only one year?

[593] One year.

[594] Wow, no shit.

[595] Yeah.

[596] And none of them went the distance.

[597] Yeah, that's incredible.

[598] And then from New Japan Pro Wrestling, so how'd you find out about that?

[599] Then I went to Pride.

[600] Did they contact you from the UFC?

[601] Yes, sir.

[602] They contacted me. Yes, sir.

[603] Because God bless Ken Shamrock, you know, he had the deal.

[604] Right.

[605] He had a connection over there.

[606] Well, no. They signed, they offered him a deal to go over there and be a bad guy American shooter.

[607] style, you know.

[608] And so he took that contract, went to WWE.

[609] Right.

[610] And showed them, and they matched it or bettered it, you know.

[611] And then that left New Japan Pro Wrestling hanging.

[612] So that's when Masa Saido called Brad Ragan's.

[613] Brad Riggins called Jeff Platteneg.

[614] God bless Lake Jeff Platteneg.

[615] He recommended me, yeah.

[616] What a great guy, Jeff Blattonick was.

[617] He gave me some great advice when I first started working for the UFC.

[618] He was just such a sweetheart of a guy.

[619] How did he pass?

[620] Was it a heart attack?

[621] I think so.

[622] Sweetheart of a guy, though.

[623] He was a good guy.

[624] Really good guy.

[625] And an elite wrestler, too.

[626] And just fantastic.

[627] Yeah.

[628] And fantastic doing commentary because of that experience.

[629] He was like you.

[630] He was a student of the sport.

[631] Yeah, he gets hired and studied it.

[632] And, you know.

[633] He's amazing.

[634] Yeah, he was an amazing guy.

[635] And so you go over to New Japan Pro Wrestling, and that's when you were getting most of your injuries, you think?

[636] Yes, sir.

[637] Because I was trying to be Rick Flair and Terry Funk, you know.

[638] And they didn't want that, you know.

[639] They want more of a bruiser, Brody type thing.

[640] He wanted you the badass American cowboy.

[641] Right, right.

[642] Right.

[643] And not to take the bumps, you know.

[644] I ended up taking bumps that I shouldn't have taken.

[645] That's the thing about progressing, right?

[646] People think, oh, it's fake.

[647] Listen, the fucking, those slams are not fake.

[648] You're really getting slammed, you know?

[649] Those picking guys up over your head, slamming them down, them picking you up, all the different collisions that you guys would have with each other night after night after night.

[650] And is there circuit over there similar to the circuit here?

[651] Would you do a lot of different shows, or are they mostly televised?

[652] How'd they do it over there?

[653] Yeah, he did a lot of dark matches, you know.

[654] Absolutely.

[655] I mean, that's how they keep the money coming in.

[656] Right.

[657] They do arenas, just like they do in America.

[658] Right.

[659] Yeah, people don't know if you're not a fan of pro wrestling.

[660] Those guys are working hundreds of nights a week, or a year, rather.

[661] They're working, you know, Dallas Page was telling me that he, you know, sometimes did 200 plus shows a year.

[662] Some guys do 300, you know.

[663] It's incredible.

[664] You stop and think about that.

[665] 365 days in a year.

[666] It's crazy.

[667] Yeah, you're getting a whacked, you know.

[668] Most of them.

[669] Yeah, you're working more days than you're not working.

[670] Right.

[671] And the travel.

[672] Yeah, and the travel.

[673] So you're exhausted all the time.

[674] You're jet lagged, and you're getting slammed.

[675] Yeah, and you got to stay in shape, and you got to eat, you know.

[676] It's a work.

[677] It's a real, you know, it's a real living.

[678] And then when you went over there, did you have to go to pro -referral wrestling school, did they train you how to do it?

[679] Brad Reagan's trained me. He did?

[680] Yeah, yes, sir.

[681] And Brad, you know, phenomenal.

[682] He's a phenomenal athlete, you know.

[683] And like I said, you know, he took fourth in the 76 Olympics in Montreal when he should have won, and then he would have won the 80 Olympics, you know.

[684] And then he ended up, he got out, you know, and he trained Jeff Blatnik, you know, because they were tight.

[685] And since Brad stepped away, you know, all the concentration was on Jeff.

[686] And how did you go from New Japan Pro Wrestling to Pride?

[687] Eagle.

[688] Ego?

[689] Yeah.

[690] I saw Mark Coleman win, you know.

[691] And I said, you know, I said, that's nonsense.

[692] That should be me, you know.

[693] stupid so what year was that was you what year was your uh your first pride fight hell partner first oh one oh one yeah it was that was the glory days yeah it was two weeks after 9 -11 i think it was either 23rd 28th wow wow and i'm going in there you know with um i told my parents find me a flag you know give it to the guys when they come over and my mother -in -law made those shorts for me. Oh, really?

[694] Yeah.

[695] Oh, right.

[696] Yeah, so, you know, the nicest, you know, I'm going in with the national anthem.

[697] Nice.

[698] Oh, it was amazing, you know, walking at the flag, had a national anthem.

[699] It was cool.

[700] Look at you there.

[701] Don Frye, 20 years ago.

[702] Isn't that wild?

[703] Yeah, it's, geez.

[704] Jeez.

[705] Is it?

[706] What year is this?

[707] That fight in the lower corner, that the Takayama fight, that was one of the craziest fucking moments in the history of mixed martial arts when you and Takayama were just slamming each other in the head over and over and over again.

[708] God bless him, man. Jesus Christ, that fight.

[709] See if you just pull up that exchange because in all the history of the sport, that is one of the most iconic exchanges of any two, because you couldn't believe it was happening.

[710] You couldn't believe you guys kept doing it.

[711] Yeah, yeah.

[712] Well, you should have been where out of that.

[713] I mean, this fight was so fucking bananas.

[714] I mean, you just walk towards each other and just this fucking exchange is like a movie exchange.

[715] In the tie -up, you're both hitting each other with right hands.

[716] And it's actual speed.

[717] What in the fuck is that?

[718] How the hell did you guys do that?

[719] Well, if you go back, you see, I slip.

[720] So I grab him, though, you know, because I see.

[721] slipped i had to grab his neck keep from falling and so he just stayed there and i stayed there just nuts i mean i never seen anything like that before or since that was while while that was happening and you just slamming right hands into each other like that what was going through your head i was like what the hell's keeping this guy up he was probably thinking the same thing about you but i hit hard joe i hit hard you do you hit him with some fucking haymakers Oh, man. And I couldn't believe he was taking them.

[722] And it was like, you're scared to hell out of me. Was that one of those 80 ,000 seat shows, one of those gigantic ones they did?

[723] I think it was only 45.

[724] A small show.

[725] A medium show.

[726] Because they did some Saitama Super Arena shows where it was just insanity.

[727] Oh, we did Tokyo Dome.

[728] I did Antonio, No. Tokyo's retirement match.

[729] Oh, yeah?

[730] Tokyo Dome 70 ,000.

[731] So they sold that out, and then they sold 5 ,000 standing tickets, you know.

[732] Wow.

[733] They got permission from the party, you probably do that.

[734] So I did that, and then they did the National Soccer Arena, you know, for Pride K -1 New Year's Eve.

[735] Oh, wow.

[736] That's when, that's when Jerome Labano knocked me on my ass.

[737] Yeah, you had that one kickboxing fight against him.

[738] That's a crazy deal to take, to take a kickboxing fight against one of the great kickboxers of all time.

[739] Yeah, yeah.

[740] Is that an ego deal, too?

[741] Yeah, ego.

[742] Well, the thing is, the deal was we were supposed to do an MMA fight, yeah.

[743] And then he backed out of that.

[744] I don't know what happened, but, man. There's a lot of things that happened, Joe, that I'm fighting out.

[745] now, you know, 20 years later, that, you know, the two scumbags ever my age at the time.

[746] Oh, really?

[747] Yeah, yeah.

[748] Oh, so they made some backdoor deals?

[749] Mm -hmm.

[750] Yeah.

[751] Oh, sorry to hear that.

[752] Yeah.

[753] That's the sport, right?

[754] Yeah, that's...

[755] Prize fighting.

[756] It was always going to be scumbags.

[757] Price fighting is full of shit.

[758] Yeah, there's a lot.

[759] I'm watching this, the King's documentary on Showtime.

[760] Have you seen it?

[761] No, I just found out about it yesterday.

[762] Oh, it's fucking amazing.

[763] It's amazing.

[764] It's so good.

[765] It's all about Roberta Duran, Sugar -A -Lennon, Thomas Hearns, and Marvin Hagler.

[766] It's fucking incredible.

[767] Yeah.

[768] It's incredible.

[769] It's so good.

[770] And it makes you remember, like, man, those days were wild.

[771] Well, they had the one once we were kings, you know, about the heavyweight days.

[772] Yeah, yeah.

[773] Yeah, this is just about those.

[774] four guys in like the you know the matches that they had with each other well the the once you were kings were about allie foreman fraser norton yep and holmes yeah yeah those are some those animals there yeah my god some amazing fights i loved haggler oh my god he's my favorite yeah yeah I loved that it broke my heart when I found like a freaking past yeah that was a rough one that made me real sad he was uh when I was a kid he was my idol yeah because he was just like this guy that didn't have any hype behind him a hard working guy from Brock to Massachusetts just blue collar just always outworked everybody yeah and just wouldn't stop and then when he got to the pinnacle when he knocked out Thomas Hearns, that fight was just like, that was the fight that made him, and people really understood what kind of greatness that man had him.

[775] People knew how good he was before that, but you had to see him against another superstar and see him just wade right into the fire to see what Tom, you know, Thomas Hurons was a murderous puncher.

[776] Murderous puncher.

[777] And to see Marvin Hagger just take it and keep coming forward.

[778] And it was a fight.

[779] It was barely a boxing match.

[780] It was a fight.

[781] You know, I mean, they made it a war.

[782] They had that on their hat, right?

[783] Yep.

[784] That was Hagler.

[785] Yeah, he put war on everything.

[786] He was something special, you know.

[787] He was an inspiration in Massachusetts, everybody.

[788] I still question.

[789] The Leonard decision?

[790] Yeah.

[791] Yeah, I thought he won that fight.

[792] Yeah, I thought he won that fight.

[793] But I did love the fact that he retired.

[794] He said, that's it.

[795] I'm done.

[796] Fuck this sport.

[797] Yeah.

[798] I'm going to Italy and make martial arts movies.

[799] How did he do?

[800] Were they any good?

[801] They were terrible.

[802] Terrible movies, but he made a lot of money.

[803] He was a superstar over there.

[804] Weren't any worse than a dip shit, huh?

[805] Oh, they were worse, believe it or not.

[806] Really?

[807] Yeah, they were crazy bad.

[808] But they were comically bad.

[809] They were like, you know, like you'd punch people, they'd go flying through the air, that kind of shit.

[810] You never seen?

[811] I know.

[812] He'd found some clips.

[813] They were hilarious movies.

[814] You know, but, you know, he decided he didn't want to fight anymore and went out at very top of his game.

[815] Which is kind of incredible.

[816] There's only a few guys have ever done that.

[817] Andre Ward did that.

[818] He did that, you know, only a few guys ever just went out.

[819] The guy from UFC.

[820] George St. Pierre?

[821] No. Kabib number of men off.

[822] Kabib did it.

[823] I mean, Kabe and, I mean, very few guys have ever gotten to the point where Kabe is and decided, I mean, he's in his early 30s.

[824] Right.

[825] This is Marvin Hagley.

[826] here.

[827] So look at this.

[828] They shoot the arrows at the airplane or?

[829] I don't know what he was doing, but look at it.

[830] These are terrible movies.

[831] Indigo, uh, Indigo.

[832] Indio.

[833] Indio.

[834] Yeah.

[835] There's just, uh, these like silly movies.

[836] I think he's shooting at the roof.

[837] Yeah.

[838] I don't know what he's doing.

[839] It's just crazy.

[840] They're just Italian movies.

[841] But he was a huge star over there.

[842] I guess he learned Italian.

[843] See, he punched that guy.

[844] Wow.

[845] That's a hell of a hook.

[846] Look at this.

[847] Upper God.

[848] Jeez, that's great.

[849] But someone has to do something like that on the early days of pride.

[850] They really do.

[851] Because the pride was something special.

[852] Because for us that were watching it at home, all the fans, it wasn't known.

[853] It wasn't like everybody, like the UFC today, say if Francis and Gano's fighting or if stylebender's fighting, everybody knows.

[854] It's big.

[855] It's a huge sport, you know?

[856] You know, you find out the events coming this weekend, hundreds of thousands, if not a million pay -per -view buys.

[857] It's a big deal.

[858] But back then, pride was no one knew over here.

[859] Yeah.

[860] Only the martial arts fans knew.

[861] It wasn't a big deal.

[862] But we knew that we were seeing something special.

[863] Well, it was like a Super Bowl every three months.

[864] Mm -hmm.

[865] It was.

[866] I'll tell you what, Joe, it was, you know, people say, you know, the Nogara brothers came over here and got whooped.

[867] They say Mercode came over, got whooped.

[868] We were busted up, man. Yeah.

[869] You get in top shape every three months to fight, you know, a top guy.

[870] You get busted up, and it's hard.

[871] It's so hard on the body to do something like that.

[872] Yeah.

[873] Everybody who came over to America had already been past their prime in pride.

[874] They had already had a career.

[875] Yeah, a full career.

[876] Yeah.

[877] Like, think of Nogera's wars, the wars that he had, the war with Fador, with Crow Cop, with, I mean, so many guys.

[878] Big Bob?

[879] Bob.

[880] Bob sap.

[881] Bob was 375 pounds, and Pile -drived him.

[882] I love Bob, man. Apparently, Minotarles' neck was fucked up for the rest of his life after that fight.

[883] Yeah.

[884] I can see that.

[885] Of course.

[886] God, damn.

[887] I mean, Bob was 375 with a six -pack, which what in the fuck was he taken?

[888] He, you know, what, 5 % body fat?

[889] He was so big.

[890] He was so big, it seemed like a boss character and a video game.

[891] Yeah.

[892] Like the final guy that you had to beat, you know?

[893] I mean, Bob was just gigantic.

[894] And he had some skills.

[895] Yeah, and he's the funniest guy.

[896] Was he?

[897] Oh, my God, he's so funny, you know?

[898] And then Yeah Somebody told me not to say that to you That he was funny Yeah Bob's funny Well his character was hilarious We put the cape on and everything And they loved him in Japan boy They loved him over there He was a huge superstar over there right Yeah But I think that time That period of time from like 2001 To whenever it was It pride went away It was like 2006 or something like that Say, uh, eight, maybe, was it ten years or eight years?

[899] Look at him and Overeem.

[900] Look at Overeem, yeah.

[901] Horse meat.

[902] Did it, did they fight?

[903] I don't know.

[904] It says versus behind them.

[905] Oh, it is an arm wrestling match.

[906] Well, Uberim is back.

[907] He's going back to glory, so they're going to let him get back on the secret sauce.

[908] We're going to see Alist or Overeem.

[909] Yeah, good.

[910] That's what I say.

[911] Yeah.

[912] Listen, test all the fighters you have to test, but when a guy's been soft, all throughout the best parts of his career and then you make him come over here and be natural.

[913] I mean, we got a chance to see him against Brock Lesner when he was saucy.

[914] Right.

[915] You know?

[916] Right.

[917] When he was 265, jacked, built like a superhero.

[918] But then, you know, all these pesky Usada tests.

[919] You know what?

[920] If every athlete on the planet would tell Usada to kiss their fucking ass, you know, they go away.

[921] They should go away.

[922] They have too much power.

[923] you know to bang on somebody's door at five o 'clock in the morning how about when they were about to fight like fight day they did it to uh Alexander Volkanowski really wasn't it him was it was it was him yeah literally fight day these motherfuckers wake him up at six o 'clock in the morning and and tell them to take a piss I'd unleash the dogs yeah yeah that is insanity it's insanity that they would even think that would be okay right and it's a huge disadvantage if they don't test his opponent right They should test him at the same time, but first of all, they should leave him the fuck alone.

[924] Yeah.

[925] It's crazy that they did that.

[926] I mean, the psychological fuck that is, you know.

[927] I mean, he was like, are you fucking kidding me?

[928] Are they really here?

[929] Yeah.

[930] You know, he couldn't believe it.

[931] I mean, he's just trying to stay calm and get ready for a fight.

[932] When you were fighting in pride, they tested all?

[933] Sure, they tested, yeah.

[934] Well, they didn't give a fuck.

[935] We don't know what happened.

[936] They spilt it on the way of the toilet.

[937] Ensign told me that they had in the contract in all capital letters.

[938] We do not test for steroids.

[939] Oh, yeah?

[940] Yeah.

[941] He said they were like, let you know.

[942] Oh, yeah.

[943] Well, it was like UFC 9 when McCarthy came in and said you can't punch, you close fist.

[944] Right.

[945] Or you will be fined somewhere, sometimes.

[946] some amount down the road you know right so you go ahead basically is that what he said oh okay so you will be fined eventually somewhere some amount you know oh so it was one of those deals yeah yeah so i mean we're we're gonna we're gonna force this stupid rule you know that you know what was it like working in pride i liked it until until i found out that um you know I had been robbed a couple of times, and they were supposed to have paid your taxes.

[947] And then, you know, I went and did the last show as a favor, you know.

[948] And I took a tremendous cut, and, you know, then the next day I go in to get paid, and the President Pride's not there.

[949] So I said, fuck, something's up.

[950] And they said, you know, I'm not going to say, name because you know still questionable everything so he said he's on the he's not here he's on the phone oh crap me he says don's on yesterday japanese irs come to our office looking for you he said they're downstairs right now waiting on you oh boy yeah so i had to go down there pay my way out of japan oh jesus christ yeah wow yeah there was a lot of weird shenanigans with money over there right that was why Bob Sapp wound up leaving, right?

[951] They told him they wanted him to fight and you didn't have a contract.

[952] Yeah.

[953] And the day of the fight, there's still no contract.

[954] It's like, look, if I don't have a contract, I'm not going out there.

[955] And then they effectively kind of blackballed them and he never really reached those same heights again.

[956] They stopped promoting them, stop, you know.

[957] Well, some ass wipe over there and made the announcement that, you know, the yakuzas was involved with pride.

[958] you know like that's a shocker i mean yacuzas involved with everything and that killed the business over there right yeah was that like the media did that or a journalist did that or something yeah a journalist yeah yeah but everybody knew anyway right right right but you're not supposed to publicly announce it because then advertisers don't want to be involved in it right yeah and is that what killed the business over there yeah yeah destroyed it so how many years did it run for in its like in its heyday I don't know I did the last one I don't know if it was eight or nine do you know we'll find out so it was like a good solid seven or eight years no it's more than that I'm sorry was it I'm thinking about myself here imagine that yeah because I came in at number 19 right oh was it yeah 19 or 21 I remember the first one was Hickson Hickson fought the very first one and they used it was Hickson versus Dakota right wasn't that number one I believe so I think that was because I think the way they launched pride I do remember that Hickson was the first one because the way they launched pride was by having pro wrestling stars compete in MMA and that was one of the big attractions to pride because pro wrestling in Japan back then was gigantic right oh yeah well the U .W Remember to UWF?

[959] That was like the first creation of pride, I guess.

[960] I don't know.

[961] Yeah.

[962] Well, you know, they had their guys shooting on each other sometimes.

[963] Sometimes, and sometimes not.

[964] What that means for people that don't understand what that means, some of the fights were a work, meaning, like, you knew who was going to win, you'd worked it out in advance, and some of the fights just turned out.

[965] to be real fights and that was a thing that would happen sometimes in japan with pro wrestling right it would just decide that and sometimes the opponent didn't know right and the guy would go out and start throwing haymakers at them and kick them and take them down and stomp them and you're like whoa what happened here too i mean you know jean the bell oh yeah you know who's the the muscle for his parents you know yeah you know and then roddy piper was a muscle for a while yeah yeah yeah Well, it's a lot of guys who were in pro wrestling were legit combat sports athletes.

[966] And some of them were just pro wrestlers.

[967] They just got into it just as entertainers.

[968] So there was a wide variety.

[969] And over in Japan, Takata was kind of, you know, he was a huge superstar over there.

[970] But Hickson would not agree to anything other than a real fight.

[971] So when you watch that fight, it's very clear.

[972] but some of the fights weren't right right and you kind of had to like look at it with a discerning eye like you'd see a guy get caught in a heel hook and you're like hmm like that looks a little fishy well I remember um after Ken chamrock and I fought I went to a WWE show here in Tucson and the undertaker he asked me if that was at work and he says because you both ended up in a hill hook and I'm like Oh, fuck, yeah, we both end up in a heel hook.

[973] We both, he had my foot, and that was the only thing I grabbed us, you know, shit.

[974] That was a shoot, buddy.

[975] Yeah, it looked real.

[976] Oh, it bleep me is real.

[977] Well, Ken was one of the very first guys to really master heel hooks.

[978] Yeah.

[979] And use those in the UFC early on, remember?

[980] Yeah.

[981] My God.

[982] Well, he, you know, had a hairline fractioner of both my freaking ankles.

[983] Did he really?

[984] Yeah.

[985] Yeah.

[986] I mean, you should have seen them, you know, my ex -wife and I, we would usually go from Japan to L .A., you know, but that time we stopped in Hawaii, and my ankles are this big, you know, just going, if I didn't went the whole way, you know, I wouldn't be able, I could barely walk off that plane.

[987] Wow.

[988] Yeah, it was a little painful.

[989] Yeah, I can only imagine.

[990] Yeah.

[991] How many fights did you have over there in pride?

[992] Not a lot Not a lot Maybe what Six or seven Yeah Something along those lines Who do you think was your toughest fight over there?

[993] Oh geez Takiamo Would have to be my toughest fight I mean it wasn't the prettiest thing It was the most iconic Yeah Yeah You know It wore me out You know I can only imagine Yeah Physically and psychological I mean, you just, you just, yeah, you go, what the hell what's going on here?

[994] Yeah.

[995] It's kind of frightening, you know?

[996] You said something to me once, I'll never forget this, about the Ken Shamrock fight.

[997] He said that, if you want to be honest, both of you left a little bit of yourself in that ring, and you were never the same afterwards.

[998] Oh, yeah.

[999] Never were.

[1000] Yeah.

[1001] Yeah.

[1002] There's some of those fights that you think back, and you think back how you were before the fight and how you were after the fight, and they were just so crazy.

[1003] So much violence.

[1004] It's just...

[1005] Well, just the preparation, too.

[1006] Yeah.

[1007] I mean, the psychological preparation sometimes is harder than the physical preparation.

[1008] Really?

[1009] Yeah.

[1010] How so?

[1011] You just got to...

[1012] You have to separate yourself.

[1013] only from your family, you know, your wife and your kids and your friends, but the whole world.

[1014] You know, I mean, I completely understand what it's like to come out of prison, you know?

[1015] I mean, prison, not jail, but prison for a long time.

[1016] Because you are just, like I said, not to be redundant, but I am, but you completely separate yourself from, Everything, everything.

[1017] When you would prepare for these fights, where were you training at the time?

[1018] There in Tucson.

[1019] A couple of times I had to leave, you know.

[1020] For the second Mark Coleman fight, you know, I went over and had Frank Shamrock, you know, training.

[1021] Oh, really?

[1022] Yeah.

[1023] And we couldn't train.

[1024] I was so beat up, you know, at that point in my career.

[1025] You know, we'd get up, you know, go have breakfast, go get a massage, go to the chiropractor, you know, go to get stretched, go to that.

[1026] It was just hardly any fighting, you know, just watched the fight on TV, you know.

[1027] Mostly just trying to keep your body healthy.

[1028] Yeah, just to show up, yeah.

[1029] So what kind of like physical training were you able to do when you were that banged up?

[1030] Not much, you know.

[1031] I mean, like I said, we would just do stretching and just technique, you know, basically just technique.

[1032] Really?

[1033] Yeah.

[1034] What did you do for conditioning?

[1035] Oh, Joe, I don't even remember anymore.

[1036] Really?

[1037] For that fight, yeah.

[1038] Because Shamrock, Frank in particular, was always a stickler for conditioning.

[1039] Yeah.

[1040] always an amazing cardio yeah I mean that was on one of his big weapons is he would put a pace on guys that's what he did to tito that's what he did to john lober in the rematch just put a put a pace on guys they couldn't keep up with oh frank was amazing he was a people forgot about frank yeah he was a beast he was amazing athlete yeah yeah remember when he armed Kevin Jackson yeah won the title yeah no he was a monster yeah that was that's one of the things that you know I use an example you know it was a gold medalist yeah in the hardest discipline you know and frank caught him what 30 seconds in the first round yeah beautiful just beautiful yeah yeah and jackson's a stud oh yeah real stud amazing wrestler yeah have you ever worked out with him no no no stronger than the fucking ox oh i could only imagine i mean all those elite wrestlers the the kind of strength those guys have remember when royce alger came over to the ufc um ensign ensign art yeah yeah he Yeah.

[1041] Fast, too.

[1042] Yeah, same thing.

[1043] Caught them in an arm bar.

[1044] But so many of your wrestlers, they just didn't understand what they were getting into.

[1045] No. Yeah.

[1046] That's the thing, you know, they leave those arms out there, and boom, they're snatched real fast.

[1047] So when you were training with Frank, how did you hook up with Frank?

[1048] How did that take place?

[1049] And where were you guys training?

[1050] Oh, yeah.

[1051] We were at his house.

[1052] Was he in California at the time?

[1053] Yes, sir.

[1054] So you went up there and just trained with him?

[1055] Yes, sir.

[1056] Did you camp with him?

[1057] Because I, you know, my, like my career going up and down, my marriage had a lot of that.

[1058] So, you know, I needed to get the hell out down, you know, because...

[1059] I get it.

[1060] Yeah, things weren't going good.

[1061] And...

[1062] So how did you make that connection with Frank?

[1063] I know.

[1064] Trying to figure that one out.

[1065] if that was a second Coleman fight so that was after Ken right but you know I don't know how the hell of that happened but he I called him I called him you called him you need some help yeah yeah and he get out I think because I had fought The French guy The first French guy New Year's Eve First French guy Not LeBanner No Who was the other French guy French guy Eminem?

[1066] Chame would pull up his car No, he was a kickboxer And I bugger his eye up real bad You know Who was that?

[1067] I'm trying to remember I think it was it I don't find it.

[1068] Inoki.

[1069] I think it was an Inoki show.

[1070] Nah, that's, it wasn't dynamite, right?

[1071] So it was, uh...

[1072] Yeah, it was a dynamite show, right?

[1073] Well, that's Nakao.

[1074] Nakau, Akabono.

[1075] No, there's a white guy.

[1076] All the way.

[1077] Cerell.

[1078] Oh, Cyril.

[1079] Oh, Cyrillabidi.

[1080] Oh, that's right.

[1081] And you got them with a rear -negged choke.

[1082] Yeah, no keep moving by it.

[1083] Yeah.

[1084] Man. So, back then, when you, uh, trained with Frank, the Lions Den was probably the first real mixed martial arts team where they were like really, them and Militich fighting systems, right?

[1085] Pat Militich's place in the Lions Den.

[1086] They were two of the very first guys that were really putting together a real, legit MMA team where they had like real, like for the time, scientific training, real technique training and real preparing guys for things.

[1087] you know like you said you they had a team yeah you know i had a group of guys you know um i had the first group of non -white guys you know all my guys were mexican things except for a couple white boys you know and uh yeah yeah they're tough tough guys man loyal you know one guy was a former uh sniper in the seals another couple guys were were uh former former Marines and what discipline would those guys have martial arts wise basically judo and wrestling but boxing too so the same thing I had so when you would prepare for a fight back then did you have like a head trainer that was like Steve Owen was my head trainer and he it would prepare your camps and the whole deal yeah Steve is amazing you know you're calling the evil Yoda you know he is he was a great judo guy several times national judo champion a couple of times world and he can look at a fight five minutes of a fight and boom have it have the game plan drawn up and so he was one of the so he was one of the first guys that was in your your camp He was my judo sense.

[1088] Oh, okay.

[1089] My first judo sensei was a guy, um, fuck me, no. Torres, what the, geez, I feel like an asshole.

[1090] No, I remember my sensei's name.

[1091] It happens.

[1092] Keoki, Keoki Torres, or George Torres, but he goes by Keoki.

[1093] He lives in a while.

[1094] I know, but Kiyoki was my first, he ran a kid's judo club down there on Fort Wachuka.

[1095] And so I started going there on Saturday mornings, and Steve would come down.

[1096] You know, he would work, he'd have up at Tucson, be Monday, Tuesday, Thursday nights, and then he'd come down Saturday morning for the kids, you know, but the rest is up in Tucson, so I would drive up there, you know.

[1097] Monday, Tuesday, Thursday night, I'd go up there and train and then jump to the truck and drive home, you know, get home at midnight, 1 o 'clock in the morning, you know, because I would always feed my guys, you know.

[1098] after we worked out I'd take him out for dinner you know and a couple of beers for me you know even in training yeah oh hell yeah up until like the fight oh night before yeah yeah really yeah wow you and cowboy saroni yeah cowboy still does that he keeps drinking yeah one of the worst I had lost to a fucking idiot or something lost to because my wife at the time decided I was drinking too much and taking too many pills so her and a couple of guys took my booze and my pills the night before the fight and I was just circling through withdrawals during the fucking fight.

[1099] No. Yeah.

[1100] That was something someone told me the other day that I could not believe they were telling me, and I don't want to name any names, but big -time fighters, particularly kickboxers, that fought on heroin.

[1101] Really?

[1102] They fought on pills, that fought on opiates.

[1103] Yeah, I did that.

[1104] That's when my career went to shit.

[1105] Yeah?

[1106] And it was just because of all the pain that you were in, right?

[1107] I mean, you said that by the time the serial a beaty fight, you were already banged up to the point where you could barely train.

[1108] Yeah.

[1109] But you think about how long your career went after that.

[1110] It's crazy.

[1111] I mean, you had your...

[1112] No, that was a Coleman fight.

[1113] Oh, it was a Coleman fight.

[1114] Yeah, that was so far.

[1115] fucked up.

[1116] I met Frank.

[1117] Frank had trained Cyril for a fight me. And then I called Frank to train me for the Coleman fight.

[1118] You know.

[1119] But you had a lot of fights even after that.

[1120] Yeah.

[1121] Yeah.

[1122] I mean, it's kind of crazy.

[1123] You rolled that motherfucker to the wheels fell off.

[1124] Yeah.

[1125] The frame fell off, man. The frame, yeah.

[1126] You've seen the frame.

[1127] Exactly.

[1128] They had to redo your frame.

[1129] Frame of restoration, yeah.

[1130] Right down to the bare chassis.

[1131] So when you, your last fight was, what, 2011, somewhere along that?

[1132] Yes, sir.

[1133] It was kind of crazy.

[1134] Five months after my fifth back surgery.

[1135] Wow.

[1136] Five months after your fifth back surgery, you had to fight.

[1137] Yeah, stupid.

[1138] Fucking stupid.

[1139] But you want, you still want to do it right now.

[1140] The thing about guys like you, it's like you never lose the itch.

[1141] Right.

[1142] It's your body just fails you.

[1143] Yeah.

[1144] And the tougher the guy, the more the body starts to fall apart because you're willing to train through pain.

[1145] You look at the guys like, I mean, Cain Velasquez is a great example.

[1146] One of the greatest of all times, but his body just couldn't hang in there.

[1147] His knees blew out, his back blew out, his neck blew out, his shoulders blew out.

[1148] He had all these surgeries and eventually just stopped being the guy that everybody knew was Cain.

[1149] You know, his body just wouldn't do what his mind could do.

[1150] Yeah, you lose.

[1151] Yeah.

[1152] You learn that in amateur wrestling, though.

[1153] You learn to keep going.

[1154] Yeah.

[1155] You know.

[1156] I think I first broke my neck when I was in college and didn't know it.

[1157] I thought I had fucked up my shoulder, you know.

[1158] Because it was shooting down your shoulder?

[1159] Yeah.

[1160] Yeah.

[1161] And so what happened was Dan.

[1162] Severn's little baby brother, Rod, and I, we were roommates, and we went down to my parents' house for Thanksgiving or something.

[1163] Anyways, we were out on those fucking three -wheelers.

[1164] Oh, no. Yeah.

[1165] That's how you did it?

[1166] Yeah.

[1167] Oh, no. Drinking and going over, and, you know, last jump of the day.

[1168] Oh, wow.

[1169] It ended up being the last jump.

[1170] you know we've been there for a couple hours gone through a few cases of beer and truck pulls up and they get out you know look at the little cussies you know because they had the shoulder pads the knee pads the gloves you know all that and you know laughing at them and so then I go off jump front tire first boom boom boom oh no yeah so I thought I'd tore up my shoulder but um 20 years later when they did my neck the guy said when did you break your first how you broke your neck you know and you didn't know you'd ever broken your neck no but I wrestled you know I kept that was um in 88 87 and then I I sat out a year in amateur wrestling because of the injury because of your neck yeah wow I thought was the shoulder but it was the neck but and then I rehabbed it you know and um because they redid the shoulder they cut off the end of clavicle bone back then it was how they would solve shit what did they do cut off the end of it yeah really because it was just destroyed so Just lob it off, throw it away.

[1171] Wow.

[1172] Holy shit.

[1173] And, uh...

[1174] That's early 90s surgeries?

[1175] Yeah, yeah.

[1176] Fuck.

[1177] 80s.

[1178] 80s?

[1179] In the end of the 80s.

[1180] And then, um...

[1181] She's, freaking ways.

[1182] Kurt Engel wrestled in the Olympics of the broken neck, didn't he?

[1183] Yeah.

[1184] He won the gold medal.

[1185] The broken neck.

[1186] Yeah.

[1187] There's no one tougher than wrestlers.

[1188] Yeah.

[1189] I know I'd...

[1190] Fuck.

[1191] they cut they fixed the shoulder cut off it was the right shoulder I think and yeah it was the right shoulder and so they put me Bobby Douglas put me on a medical scholarship you know so it would open up a scholarship for that team which is what needed to be done and so I so then I rehabped it through 87 and then and partway through 88, you know, I went up and, you know, working out with the team and all that, but I went up to the Las Vegas Southwestern Regional Qualifying Tournament for the Olympics.

[1192] And I won that in Greco and Freestyle.

[1193] And then I went to, which made you qualify you for the national finals, you know.

[1194] And so then I went up there for the Greco, got my ass handed to me. You know, I thought, you know, you get lucky every once in a while and think you're good at it.

[1195] And, but they wouldn't let me go to the freestyle.

[1196] You know, they said, pick one or the other.

[1197] And like a dumb ass, I picked the wrong one, you know.

[1198] And, but I ended up taking fifth.

[1199] I think I took fifth the year, fifth or six, in the national freestyle.

[1200] tournament, you know.

[1201] It must have been six, because they took the first five.

[1202] And always a bridesmaid, you know?

[1203] Right.

[1204] And, but, yeah, Art Martori, you know, was a money guy back then, you know, for the Olympic team almost.

[1205] So when did, so with all the injuries, when did you first start taking pain medication?

[1206] Oh, fuck.

[1207] you know the first time was in 96 you know um so this was during the ufc days yeah because that was ufc 8 was what was that 96 yeah that was February 96 and then crap joe what the hell do you remember when you started fighting on them no that was a fucking mistake when that was uh well Well, what happened, I did, I heard something in the UFC.

[1208] I broke my hand, right?

[1209] Or Coleman, Coleman beat the hell out of me. Remember when Coleman beat the hell on me in the UFC 10?

[1210] Yeah.

[1211] And so then they, you know, he broke my ocular, I think it is, or occipital, I don't know.

[1212] And, and then something that.

[1213] else happened anyways then i fought uh mark hall was my first fight that night and then um i was offered a fight um against him in japan in november right before you know november 96 and um our bob mirewitz found out that i was going to do that and that dan was going to do that you know and he was pissed because the opportunity of ruining the ultimate ultimate too right and i says come on bob it's mark hall you know come on and uh mark hall was undersized right yeah smaller guy yeah he's a tough guy buck 85 yeah fucking idiot are you kidding me yeah he's a idiot i didn't know i don't know him at all you'd want to slap him upside the head if you did The fucking guy he's going around saying that, you know, he took a dive.

[1214] Oh, did he?

[1215] Yeah, against me at the ultimate ultimate, you know, second round.

[1216] You know, fuck him.

[1217] Oh.

[1218] I didn't even, I'd already beat him twice.

[1219] You know, he would be the last person in there.

[1220] I want to take a dive, you know, but, so I beat Gary Goodridge, you know, in the first round, ultimate ultimate and i buddy my dave norts he had gone with me for the fire department he was a paramedic okay so he hits me up with a line you know we put two bags two or three bags after the goodridge fight oh yeah yeah which boom you know fire you right back up probably right back fresh as a daisy you know and um so then i beat hall boom you you know, fast.

[1221] I mean, tank knocks out his guy, you know.

[1222] And so, God damn, he's dead.

[1223] He broke his neck, you know.

[1224] You hear all these Alabama guys, you know.

[1225] Was that Steve Nelmark?

[1226] Yeah.

[1227] That was a crazy chaos.

[1228] Ooh, that was a wild one.

[1229] Tank could fucking crack.

[1230] Oh, man. It was like one of those puppets, you know.

[1231] So we just cut the strings.

[1232] We could just fold it back on them.

[1233] That was one of the great chaos of those days.

[1234] It was amazing It was I didn't see it And then it was you and tank in the finals Yep Taking the finals Yeah and you got his back Crazy war Then you got his back It finished him Fuck I mean stupid ass me You know I walk out lumber out there And step sideways He'll heel What happens when you stay on your heels Joe You get knocked backwards You get knocked on your ass You shouldn't be and stupid ass i don't know what the hell i was thinking you know heel heel but as soon as that second heel landed he hit me you know with a jab yeah hard jab though yeah that motherfucker kid everything he did was hard damn right you know he was like um you want to talk about a guy who could drink yeah i made a mistake of drinking with him one night him and his buddies at the bar tank it put him away i remember one time uh i was there for i forget which event was but there was was a giant brawl that broke out right after i went to bed i left everybody everybody was downstairs in the afterfight area hanging out drinking and uh it was getting late so i was like well i'm gonna go to bed so i went upstairs to go to bed and then i heard like you just missed it apparently vali uh valigi belid ishmael and uh tank got into a brawl and there was just chairs flying and all kinds of crazy shit and i missed it about like 20 minutes I'm fucking Brazilians here They'd fight the job of a hat You know fuck I mean I remember over here Pride having breakfast You know A couple of times They almost got Right next to my table Yeah Guys I'm fucking eating here You know Start brawling Well there's so many brawls back then Right Charles Crazy Horse Bennett And Van derly Silva brawled backstage Yeah Yeah Legendary fights backstage If someone Someone should do a documentary on Pride They really do shit Because it was just a fucking crazy time in martial arts history.

[1235] And it was also a time when Fadour was in his prime.

[1236] Yeah.

[1237] And I think it's arguable that Fadour in his prime was the greatest heavyweight of all time.

[1238] Yeah, yeah.

[1239] It's between my mind, it's hard to say because, you know, like, Fabricio Verdoom beat both him and cane, right?

[1240] But I think he caught Fadour when Fadour was battle -worn and it was pretty deep into his career.

[1241] And also there was testing over in America that wasn't testing.

[1242] in Japan, you know, and then the same thing with Kane, when Fabricio caught Kane, Kane had already gone through, it had been a pretty long, extensive career.

[1243] But it's arguable that when he, like, when he fought Crow Cop, when he fought Nogera, when he fought all those guys over there was arguable that Fador was the greatest.

[1244] Fadour was the greatest.

[1245] There's no reason to even fucking talk about it.

[1246] You know?

[1247] I mean, It's simple.

[1248] If you ever watch the man fight live, it, it was something you'll never forget, you know.

[1249] I mean, those things over there, they were, they were events.

[1250] They weren't just a fight, you know, you go to, you know, on a Saturday night.

[1251] Hey, let's go, what's the fight, you know?

[1252] They were fucking events.

[1253] Like I said, Super Bowl every three months.

[1254] The women would get dressed up.

[1255] The men would, you know.

[1256] I mean, you plan your whole fucking week around it, you know?

[1257] Yeah.

[1258] They'd go and have their dinner, you know, state dinner, you know, not beer on the back of the pickup, you know.

[1259] Yeah, it was a big deal.

[1260] Yeah.

[1261] It was a big deal.

[1262] We used to get up in the morning and watch them because they were live from Japan.

[1263] So they'd be on here, like, I forget what it was.

[1264] Five in a morning.

[1265] Something crazy like that, yeah.

[1266] And we would watch them live.

[1267] Yeah, you, you never went to a private.

[1268] No, I missed it They offered me a gig Commentating at one point Yeah, they came to meet me in I forget where it was One of the UFC events Back when I was doing the interviews And they offered me a gig to commentate in pride And I was like Oh man Yeah, fucked up I should have done it at least once Who owned the UFC Bob?

[1269] That was Bob Bob did back in the day Yeah Bob was such a good guy But he did not like any U. going anywhere or doing anything else you know he's he was a good man but he was solid on loyalty you know and he felt you know that you're betraying him you know which is probably probably the truth at the time you know well there was so much competition and there was only I mean the UFC was the big thing in America but pride was way bigger than the UFC back then in terms of size it wasn't even close no UFC was doing small places in comparison to what pride was doing.

[1270] Well, it was that fucking McCain.

[1271] Yep, yep, yeah.

[1272] He was choking them out.

[1273] And then when Zufa bought the UFC, when the Fertitas and Dana White came along, then they had the business plan, and then they had the money.

[1274] And even then, I mean, they were real close to bailing.

[1275] Yeah.

[1276] At one point in time, they were $40 million in debt, which is just nuts.

[1277] That was right when the ultimate fighter came along.

[1278] And they had actually talked to Dana on the phone and said, let's try.

[1279] to sell it.

[1280] And Dana was going to sell it.

[1281] They were going to start putting out offers and try to see, you know, who wanted to buy the UFC.

[1282] And then I guess for Tita changes in mind.

[1283] I guess they just decided, listen, we'll wait.

[1284] We'll wait.

[1285] We'll wait it out.

[1286] And then they did the ultimate fighter.

[1287] And then boom, it takes off.

[1288] But apparently they were literally at the, they were thinking about putting out the offers and he actually made the phone call and decided to Lorenzo did to Dana and Dana was ready to sell it and then they changed their mind last minute and then boom look what it is now it's kind of wow because if they sold it who the fuck knows what would have happened I would have quit for sure I would have stopped doing commentary they probably would have you know they would have had to have somebody that had a lot of media savvy that knew how to market the company and try to rebrand it or something.

[1289] And they probably would have sold it and they probably would have lost a lot of money too because before the ultimate fighter in 2005, it wasn't really worth that much money.

[1290] No. But then when the ultimate fighter happened and Stefan Bonner and Forrest Griffin fought live on TV and they had that crazy fucking brawl and then it became popular.

[1291] That one fight made the sport.

[1292] It's wild in a lot of ways.

[1293] That was a defining moment.

[1294] It didn't make the sport, but it was a defining.

[1295] defining moment for the sport in America.

[1296] Right.

[1297] But meanwhile, in Japan, at the same time, they were doing the Saitama Super Arena.

[1298] Yeah.

[1299] Huge events.

[1300] Gigantic spectacular crowds.

[1301] 50 ,000 people.

[1302] Bra!

[1303] It was wild.

[1304] Oh, man. The walk -ins and that crazy pride lady that would introduce everybody.

[1305] Her introductions were legendary.

[1306] Oh, fucking funny.

[1307] The first time I fought, she called me Dan.

[1308] Did she?

[1309] That's funny.

[1310] Can you get a cup of coffee?

[1311] Yeah, yeah, sure.

[1312] Water.

[1313] Oh, fuck.

[1314] What do you want?

[1315] Copy.

[1316] Here we go.

[1317] I didn't know that.

[1318] I'm sorry, gentlemen.

[1319] No worries.

[1320] A words.

[1321] Thank you.

[1322] I didn't know.

[1323] This is my water here?

[1324] Yeah.

[1325] Thank you.

[1326] When you think back, I mean, what a crazy life you've lived.

[1327] You lived like a movie life.

[1328] You know?

[1329] Yeah, nobody would believe it.

[1330] It wouldn't believe it.

[1331] It wasn't a movie.

[1332] It would be a crazy, spectacular movie.

[1333] For you to go from being a guy who's, shoeing horses and working in the fire department, all of a sudden you decide, ah, I could do that, and you take a fight.

[1334] The next thing you know, well, I guess I'm fighting now.

[1335] Yeah.

[1336] To all the way to Japan, to kickboxing Jerome Labanner, and the fighting in these giant arenas and doing New Japan Pro Wrestling, and it's a crazy life you've lived on, Fry.

[1337] It's a fun one.

[1338] Yeah.

[1339] It was a fun one.

[1340] Half the time I'm done, you know.

[1341] I got my bulldog, Quinn, and if it wasn't for her, I had a guy that went, you know.

[1342] She's the only reason I'm here now.

[1343] Your bulldog?

[1344] Yeah.

[1345] Yeah.

[1346] My kids are grown, you know.

[1347] They don't have time for me. You know, they're good, good girls, beautiful, smart, you know, but, you know, they're 20, 21.

[1348] They have their life.

[1349] Yeah.

[1350] When you think back on all the damage that.

[1351] that it did to your body.

[1352] If you had to go back and do it all again, would you do it again?

[1353] Bitch, you sweet ass.

[1354] I knew you're gonna say that.

[1355] I knew you're gonna say that.

[1356] When I do it now, Columbia works out for me. Yeah, right?

[1357] When you see the fighters today and you know that you're a gigantic part of the evolution of the sport.

[1358] I mean, you were a pioneer.

[1359] You were there in the early days.

[1360] When you see what it's like now, it's got to be pretty crazy to see and know that you are a vital part of the beginning of this thing You know, I really don't understand What you're saying about, you know About being a vital part and being You were one of the legends, man You're like if you If you go back and look at the legends of the sport Don Frye, you're one of the legends, man Whether you believe it or not You're one of the fucking OGs When I told my friends that I was having you on the podcast today People were like, oh shit They were so excited people are pumped people fucking love you man they love you because you are you are 100 % authentic you wear your heart on your sleeve you don't bullshit you're a fucking real man you're the you're the real deal don fry thanks thanks partner it's not a lot of people like you yeah probably good good call I mean think about it like what you've done in your life there's not a lot of humans that would have followed your path very few people no they go pretty easy route I never enough to take the easy route how many of those fights do you think you you fought when you're on the pain pills oh shit Joe um after shamrock everyone all of them huh yeah you just had to yeah yeah i had no choice you know um yeah my body was so beat up and then you know being a dumb ass you think okay i've been i live on these things i train on these things you know i can fight on these things yeah that's stupid i think there was a lot of people doing that though that's what my friend was telling me the other night he was telling me look man you don't know but i'm telling you a lot of those guys were fighting on heroin they're fighting on opiates i never did the heroin but opiates paper pills the same thing it's you know it's opiates yeah i i did that um What was that shit Kerr was on?

[1361] Oxycontin?

[1362] No. The Percocet's?

[1363] The injectable.

[1364] Oh, I don't know what that is.

[1365] From the smashing machine?

[1366] Yeah.

[1367] That movie was a wake -up call for a lot of people, huh?

[1368] Yeah.

[1369] I never saw the thing.

[1370] It's crazy.

[1371] I saw bits and pieces, but...

[1372] It's crazy fucking documentary.

[1373] Yeah.

[1374] And they caught him...

[1375] You know, that wasn't the purpose of that film.

[1376] The purpose of that film, when they started making...

[1377] making that documentary was when Mark Kerr was in his prime and what a fucking specimen that guy was, right?

[1378] Right, right.

[1379] And they were, they wanted to document this guy who was this fucking elite super athlete wrestler who was the smashing machine.

[1380] It was just, that's what they nicknamed him over there.

[1381] And he was just killing everybody.

[1382] And during the process of filming it, they realized like, wow, this guy's addicted to pain medication.

[1383] And he was real open about it.

[1384] And he showed them everything.

[1385] And then you got to see the two.

[1386] They caught him during the filming right when the wheels were falling off.

[1387] So it was just complete dumb luck that that documentary became sort of a cautionary tale.

[1388] Yeah, I know that back then around that time, some Hollywood producer came out to the house and he wanted to do one of one of those.

[1389] shows you know but i was this my body was starting to fall apart so bad and i'm like i don't know how much longer i'll be able to keep this going yeah and i you know the kids kids were little you know wanted to and or less than that and i didn't want i didn't want these people in my house right you know because you know it just had the kids and then like you said the wheels were falling off man and and i knew i knew things were about to go to shit you know but i didn't want telling anybody that right did anybody know other than your trainers yeah yeah i don't know i don't know yeah when did you did you did you were you thinking you weren't going to be able to do this much longer we're trying to figure out something else to do with your life of course of course it's hard for fighters especially when you're making that much money right yeah and that's all you I mean, all I've known is physical, you know, firemen, horseshoer, you know, or ferrier, you know, fighter, everything was physical and, and then, you know, you're about to lose it all.

[1390] Yeah.

[1391] You know, you're about to lose it all.

[1392] Right.

[1393] Yeah, that's the untold story of fighters before and after their careers, you know, during camps.

[1394] All you see is the fights.

[1395] Yeah.

[1396] Everybody sees the fights, and the fights are amazing.

[1397] But most people have no idea the kind of pain and injury guys are going through just with almost every camp.

[1398] Yeah.

[1399] Just shit, Joe.

[1400] You know, I wake up at 6 in the morning now, and it takes me six hours to get beyond the kitchen, you know.

[1401] Does it?

[1402] Yeah.

[1403] You know.

[1404] I'm getting better.

[1405] I've made it outside a couple of times, you know, before noon.

[1406] Wow.

[1407] And what kind of medications do they have you on to deal with all this?

[1408] Now I'm on morphine.

[1409] Hydromorphone, it's deloxid, and then morphine, you know.

[1410] And it's not enough, but I don't want to go, you know.

[1411] I haven't had a drink since.

[1412] September of, um, um, 2016.

[1413] Really?

[1414] Yeah.

[1415] I ain't gonna lie to you.

[1416] I'd like that one.

[1417] So was the problem with the drinking with the pills?

[1418] Well, you know, that's, that's what my ex -wife claimed.

[1419] But yeah, shit.

[1420] I didn't think it was that bad, but, you know.

[1421] You're a fucking animal, though.

[1422] I don't remember.

[1423] I don't remember what happened, you know.

[1424] Yeah.

[1425] When you get to taking the pills and the alcohol, you're not always knowing what you're saying.

[1426] Right.

[1427] I insulted a lot of people, you know.

[1428] But it wasn't my words.

[1429] It was words that I didn't create.

[1430] It was, I was like repeating shit I had heard, you know?

[1431] Right.

[1432] Because you're just out of it.

[1433] Yeah.

[1434] Yeah.

[1435] yeah and yeah wasn't wasn't something that was you know just like i don't i don't hate anybody right um you know when when you're peeled up and you're drunk you you spoo a lot of hatred right especially when you're constantly in pain too yeah oh fuck you're miserable just being a miserable prick are you uh constantly in pain right now no just 90 % of the time so not constantly no no it's a good 10 % there yeah so even sitting here like this thing that you have on your chest is this like a back support it's supposed to yeah it's supposed to be on my belly yeah what does that thing do uh it just like a weightlifting belt yeah heavy duty belt yeah it's nice I mean it's just big in the back you know it looks like Rick Flair's championship belt you know and just to keep everything together yeah support it you know Give it strength, yeah.

[1436] But even with all the pills, it's still, you're still in pain.

[1437] Oh, yeah.

[1438] So what are the pills, you just take a little bit of the edge off?

[1439] They talk the edge off so that you can get going, you know.

[1440] Fuck, Joe.

[1441] Like I said, the first surgery was May 2010.

[1442] You know, things went really bad in 08, you know, when my father passed away.

[1443] And I could only walk 40 steps.

[1444] You know, it would take me half an hour to get out to the barn to feed the horses.

[1445] I'd go 40 steps, sit down.

[1446] 40 steps sit down for five, ten.

[1447] How many times did you fight after that?

[1448] You fought at least twice after that.

[1449] Yeah.

[1450] Fuck, I fought.

[1451] I don't know.

[1452] You got the card.

[1453] The record?

[1454] Yeah.

[1455] fought when you had been in that condition that's really crazy really stupid well you're just you're a wild motherfucker man i would expect nothing less what are you doing with yourself these days what is the family i understand i understand your uh toxic masculinity shirt yeah with that Dan and Don's toxic masculinity Yeah Is that you and Mr. Severn?

[1456] Severn?

[1457] What are you guys doing with that?

[1458] What is this shirt?

[1459] Uh We have a podcast.

[1460] Do you really?

[1461] Yes, sir.

[1462] What's it on?

[1463] It's on everything?

[1464] Apple, all that chas partner beats hell on me, huh?

[1465] There it is.

[1466] Dan and Don's toxic masculinity podcast.

[1467] How is Dan doing?

[1468] Dan's doing.

[1469] great and dan's amazing man he's got some wild stories too i want to get him in here as well you got to den have to did i mean because he was there at the beginning the very beginning yeah you got to get him he was ufc too right wasn't he no i think four four was it okay yeah i mean yeah i came in eight i think that was um all right this thing started in 93 But actually, 94, because there's only one event in 93, you know.

[1470] And that one is hard, it was hard to find back in the day.

[1471] I think there's something going on with the rights to it.

[1472] So I, the first one I saw was in 94, I watched a videotape of it.

[1473] I got it from a videotape store.

[1474] Back in the days, we'd have, like, Blockbuster video and shit like that.

[1475] I still got a couple of VHS tapes.

[1476] Do?

[1477] Yeah.

[1478] I don't know if, I think I might have one or two that's not even opened yet.

[1479] Wow.

[1480] They're probably worth a lot of money.

[1481] You think so?

[1482] Yeah, fucking eBay.

[1483] Those are classics now.

[1484] If they're not even opened?

[1485] Yeah.

[1486] I bet you could eBay the shit out of them, especially if you sign it.

[1487] I got a couple of my T -shirts, you know, original T -shirts.

[1488] Oh, really?

[1489] And then I've got a couple of the programs.

[1490] Oh, wow.

[1491] You know, yeah, yeah.

[1492] I'll have to find one I'll send it to you.

[1493] Yeah, please do.

[1494] What was funny was the program from Ultimate Ultimate 2.

[1495] You know, I mean, back then it was like on paper, you know, even half by and a lot of paper.

[1496] And they just take down the Xerox machine, you know, and then staple it up and hand it out.

[1497] Yep.

[1498] And that was it.

[1499] Wow.

[1500] Yeah, it was fucking funny.

[1501] But going back to Ultimate Ultimate 2.

[1502] See, I didn't want to fight Mark Kerr.

[1503] or Mark Hall, you know, because I had already beating twice, and I knew there was going to be bullshit involved.

[1504] I just knew there would be bullshit involved.

[1505] How so?

[1506] Because we had the same manager, you know.

[1507] And, like, white fighting three times in the fucking row.

[1508] I wanted to fight.

[1509] There's a black guy whose name was Ty Bowden.

[1510] Ty Bowden.

[1511] Yeah, I don't know if that was.

[1512] really in Tybo, but Tyboden, you know.

[1513] I don't know if this is his real name or not, but he had a, for his photo, he had a karate guy with his head cut out and taped on, their glued on.

[1514] I said, I want to fight that guy.

[1515] And they're like, no, you can't.

[1516] You already beat a black guy if you beat too black you to live crazy.

[1517] Come on.

[1518] Who said that?

[1519] Your manager?

[1520] No, I don't know who said that.

[1521] Oh, that's hilarious.

[1522] yeah that's hilarious yeah beyond it's one of those stupid fucking things that you know you believe now you know we're not 20 years ago I wish someone was filming all those events back then because they were in these weird little rickety arenas and it was so strange back then it was like I remember the first one I did which was in Dothan I remember even being there while it was happening I'm like this is the crazy the fact that I'm even here this is the craziest thing ever You had to fly in propeller planes.

[1523] You had to do one of these weird towns where they let it happen because it was mostly illegal in most of the states in the country.

[1524] Well, look what happened to Kevin Randleman.

[1525] You know, he slipped on a pipe.

[1526] Yeah, and fell and banged his head.

[1527] Yeah.

[1528] Yeah.

[1529] How dirty is an arena have to be that you fall on pipes?

[1530] Yeah, he slipped on a pipe and fell and banged the back of his head off the ground and couldn't fight.

[1531] Yeah.

[1532] Yeah, I think he knocked himself out.

[1533] Yeah.

[1534] And you know how hard it was to knockout around him?

[1535] Yeah, right?

[1536] I think he was the most athletic competitor ever being in the UFC.

[1537] He was a tremendous athlete.

[1538] Yeah.

[1539] He was so fast.

[1540] Remember when he knocked out Krocop and pride?

[1541] Yeah.

[1542] Nobody saw that comment.

[1543] No. I mean, Krookop was one of the most elite strikers of all time.

[1544] And Randleman was such a powerful wrestler that he was worried about the shot.

[1545] He faked the shot and came in with a left hook.

[1546] Yeah.

[1547] Yeah.

[1548] Rattleman was amazing athlete.

[1549] Amazing.

[1550] Like I said, I think he was the greatest athlete ever beginning of the UFC.

[1551] Do you ever see the holes that guy, the staff infections that guy had?

[1552] Yeah, but I don't remember.

[1553] Oh, my God, they were crazy.

[1554] He took photos of him and put them online.

[1555] He had holes in his, like, armpit area where you could see all the muscle tissue.

[1556] Like, it was wide open.

[1557] Oh, geez.

[1558] So nasty.

[1559] The staff had gotten through his skin and just left these big abscesses.

[1560] I'm taking three, four -inch holes.

[1561] Like, Jamie, see what you can find it because it's one of the most fucked up things.

[1562] You have to see it.

[1563] A lot of folks don't know how bad staff infections can get.

[1564] I always show him Kevin Randman's injuries.

[1565] Look at that.

[1566] Look at that hole.

[1567] Look how bad that is.

[1568] Crazy, right?

[1569] Did they ever close up?

[1570] Yeah, they've closed up.

[1571] But, I mean, he died young.

[1572] I mean, it had to contribute.

[1573] Yeah, look at his knee.

[1574] Is that his knee over there in the bottom?

[1575] That's somebody else's knee.

[1576] That's somebody else's knee?

[1577] Yeah.

[1578] Another horrible staff infection.

[1579] Staff has some scary fucking shit.

[1580] It is nasty.

[1581] It is.

[1582] I had that.

[1583] Yeah.

[1584] Like I said, geez.

[1585] I don't know which surgery it was, but I...

[1586] The back.

[1587] Yeah.

[1588] And, geez, fucking least Joe.

[1589] What the hell?

[1590] I know that it had gotten in the surgeon.

[1591] um i did my first replacement he was from south korea he was a harvard graduate you know put himself through college you know going to harvard and um he said he almost vomited wow you know during the surgery you know and then and then that was and then um that was in 10 or 11 no it was 12 or 13 and then the one that was in my spinal cord the second time that was in 17 or 18 you know in Tucson it's one of the biggest problems of surgeries right yeah infections yeah and they they were like yeah we got you just in time you know what's fucked up about the whole thing was that um They had put me in the first doctor didn't believe it.

[1592] They couldn't find anything, you know.

[1593] So they put me in an old folks home, you know, where you go to die, basically.

[1594] Really?

[1595] Yeah.

[1596] And fuck.

[1597] And I would wake up at 4 o 'clock in the morning just screaming because the pain medication would wear off.

[1598] and I'd wake up screaming, you know, so I need some pain medication.

[1599] And they go, you're not due for another two hours.

[1600] Turn off the light, close the door, and go down the hall.

[1601] Oh, my God.

[1602] And I'd be screaming.

[1603] And I'd call up my buddy Jeff.

[1604] You've got to get me out.

[1605] You've got to get me. And so I made the, finally got a hold of the fire department.

[1606] They came down to get me. I'm screaming.

[1607] This is the infection in my.

[1608] my spinal cord and I yeah fuck I you know and the guy's like you don't quit cussing I'm gonna decline to take you oh my god I'm like what I look at this captain I said you're kidding me right and he says no like he is when I was a fire department we put up with all kinds of fucking cussing and all that he says things have changed man you know Jesus yeah I mean and I I was just close to buy in the farm.

[1609] Wow.

[1610] So the doctor just missed the infection.

[1611] Yeah.

[1612] And so then they finally get you in.

[1613] They got in there and they said my spinal cord was all lumpy and swollen and all that.

[1614] And then they just kind of poked it and stuff come out.

[1615] Oh, geez.

[1616] So this jackass fucking paramedic, you know, didn't want to take me because I was cussing.

[1617] That's hilarious.

[1618] Yeah.

[1619] yeah what a life you've had don fry what a life i had the money i get a lawyer who after yeah and then or war who was that just give me five minutes in the ring but that's all so how often are you doing this podcast with dan now excuse me sir um that it's it's gone down to I think it's been three weeks now.

[1620] We were supposed to do it every week.

[1621] And then Dan went back to Michigan.

[1622] Dan owns an island.

[1623] It does?

[1624] Oh, yeah, one of the lakes there, you know.

[1625] So we went back there to redo his cabin.

[1626] Oh, really?

[1627] Yeah.

[1628] Oh, that's cool.

[1629] So he's got like a small island that you have to row your boat out to?

[1630] Yeah, yeah.

[1631] A little one acre place, yeah.

[1632] Oh, really?

[1633] Oh, that's cool.

[1634] One acre island.

[1635] Yeah, is that sweet?

[1636] That's pretty badass.

[1637] Yeah.

[1638] That's nice.

[1639] Yeah, I'm envious of him, man. I'm happy for him.

[1640] That guy had how many M .M .A. He must have 100.

[1641] He's had over 100.

[1642] Crazy.

[1643] And the thing is, he's got him and there's three guys had over 100 fights.

[1644] Jeremy Horn.

[1645] Yeah, him and Jeremy have winning records.

[1646] Which is pretty crazy.

[1647] Yeah, the other guy doesn't.

[1648] Shannon to Cannon.

[1649] Yeah.

[1650] Right, yeah.

[1651] I don't want to say his name, but...

[1652] I only said one part of it.

[1653] Yeah.

[1654] Well, listen, Don, we got some barbecue for you.

[1655] All right, I'm tired talking to me, am I?

[1656] No, you're great, man. But I know you've got to be hungry.

[1657] I know you eat every hour.

[1658] Yeah, shit.

[1659] It's been a pleasure, sir.

[1660] I really appreciate it.

[1661] I'm sorry.

[1662] You're awesome, man. Rich.

[1663] I wanted to bring rich because, you know, when we go to a fight, I get tunnel vision, you know, so I only, you know, concentrate on 25, 30 % of what's going on, you know, Rich is taking care of the other 70 % you know, Rich or Steve or somebody, you know.

[1664] So you missed the 70 % of the story.

[1665] No, listen, what I got was gold.

[1666] What I got was gold.

[1667] I'm telling you, though, Rich has got some good shit.

[1668] Yeah, well, I'll talk to him sometime too.

[1669] You're going to have to come out to my house, man. All right, I would love to.

[1670] Yeah.

[1671] Where are you, which part of Arizona?

[1672] Tucson.

[1673] Next time I'm in Tucson, I'll come out.

[1674] I do gigs out there sometimes.

[1675] Yeah, I'm just, I'm in North Tucson.

[1676] I'm only like an hour away from Phoenix.

[1677] Okay.

[1678] Mesa.

[1679] I'll make that happen.

[1680] All right.

[1681] That'd be great.

[1682] Don, you're the fucking man. Thank you, brother.

[1683] Thank you.

[1684] Appreciate you very much, man. Thank you.

[1685] Always a pleasure.

[1686] Don Frye, ladies and gentlemen.