William Jackson Harper

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm Mike Griegel, and I'm joined by Sarah Lawrence.

[2] Oh, my God.

[3] Sarah Lawrence has such a history.

[4] Oh, yeah, great college.

[5] Great, great college.

[6] You created a great, great college.

[7] Why, thank you.

[8] God, I wish I could create a great, great college.

[9] That's the Unifiles dream.

[10] Yeah, but it would just take hundreds of years before.

[11] It really had that prestige you and I a covet.

[12] God, I'm in it for the long game.

[13] We have a good, good buddy on today.

[14] Yeah, we do.

[15] Oh, the sweetest.

[16] William Jackson Harper.

[17] You probably know Ms. Cheaty.

[18] on The Good Place.

[19] What a perfect cheaty he was.

[20] Oh my God.

[21] He was perfect.

[22] That's why they nominated him for an Emmy.

[23] Emmy nominated William Jackson Harper.

[24] Oh my gosh.

[25] But you guys have a lot in common.

[26] We sure do.

[27] Now, of course, you know him from The Good Place.

[28] Also midsummer, Dark Waters.

[29] He has a new film, We Broke Up, which will be released on VOD April 23rd.

[30] Also, Amazon's The Underground Railroad will premiere on May 14th.

[31] I am so looking forward to that.

[32] Me too.

[33] But I also got to say something really important about We Broke Up.

[34] Okay.

[35] We Broke Up is written by Jeff Rosenberg, who worked on The Good Place.

[36] Oh.

[37] I love Rosie so much, and we had such a great rapport.

[38] Rosie was my favorite person on set at The Good Place.

[39] I'm so happy he made this.

[40] It's crazy.

[41] Yeah, it's so wonderful.

[42] Lastly, he's going to star in and produce the second season of HBO Max's Love Life.

[43] So, we broke up the Underground Railroad.

[44] Love life.

[45] What a busy gentleman and a sweet gentleman.

[46] Please enjoy William Jackson Harper.

[47] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and add free right now.

[48] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[49] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[50] He's an armchair.

[51] I see Billiam Jackson Harper.

[52] Hello.

[53] What's up, man?

[54] How you doing?

[55] Oh, so good.

[56] Delighted to see you.

[57] So good to see you, too.

[58] Monica, hello.

[59] How are you doing?

[60] Hello.

[61] I'm great.

[62] How are you?

[63] You're looking good.

[64] You're looking sharp.

[65] Thanks, I'll take that.

[66] I've actually given up.

[67] Well, tell your face and hair because they look dynamite.

[68] Exactly.

[69] They didn't get the memo.

[70] Let's fucking party then.

[71] Right out of the gates, we're going to have to address something, which is, and should anyone see you on the street, they're not to call you Bill.

[72] You do not go by Bill, but Kristen affectionately.

[73] refers to you as Bill, which means, of course, I've come to affectionately refer to you as Bill, and I probably will a bunch in this, but I just don't want anyone to yell Bill at you anywhere.

[74] You have to get really close in order to call him Bill.

[75] Yeah, to get to Bill, you got to get to a point where we're hurling insults at each other in some fashion.

[76] Okay.

[77] Or like, we've got to have like a couple of jokes that are somewhat mean -spirited, but we all know what the deal is.

[78] Yeah, you've walked past the threshold where you're saying, I like you so much.

[79] that I don't mind if you insult me, because I know you love me. This is a sign of endearment when you can really shit on each other, right?

[80] Oh, yeah.

[81] Like, my old roommates in New York, they would, I mean, the things that these two dudes would say to each other.

[82] And I mean, they're, like, both from New England.

[83] And so, like, they would just, like, come for each other in ways that I'm like, y 'all need to go to fucking counseling and actually, like, hash this out.

[84] It's like, that's like a deep cut.

[85] There's, like, little microcultures and friendship groups.

[86] And yeah, I never was the type that love to really, really take someone out.

[87] That's not really my style.

[88] But I've been around bros who, yeah, I mean, wow, can they go for the jugular?

[89] And they don't seem to mind.

[90] No, no. And they're fine the next day.

[91] I mean, granted, it would like start out with like a couple of beers, then end up with like us doing like some sort of like dance party at the end of the night.

[92] Just dudes in a living room.

[93] You bet.

[94] Was it booty pumping in a circle?

[95] No, we'd be grooving to, like, weird -ass, easy listening that we all had in common.

[96] So, like, Al Stewart, like, this one song, Year of the Cat, I don't know about either of a -oh, oh, yeah.

[97] Okay, my friend, Ben, who's, like, one of my dearest friends now.

[98] But, like, when he first moved into the apartment that I was living in with a bunch of dudes, as he was moving in, he started blasting Year of the Cat from his new room.

[99] And I was like, I heard it from a distance.

[100] I was like, is that Year of the Cat?

[101] And he was like, you know it, baby?

[102] And I was like, what?

[103] And from then on, we were like, best friends.

[104] Okay, you could not have brought up a song that I have more thoughts about.

[105] I have tweeted about this song dozens of times because I love it.

[106] And my theory is the record label was done with Al. They didn't want anything to do with him.

[107] And they basically, to fuck him, said, your next song has to be called The Year of the Cat.

[108] Because you cannot make a song called The Year of the Cat that is good.

[109] It's not possible.

[110] And this son of a bitch turns around and writes that song.

[111] No current singer -songwriter in the world could take the title, You're of the Cat, and make that song.

[112] It's so impressive.

[113] I'm obsessed with it and since been invited to see Al perform it.

[114] Oh, I would love to see Al Stewart play Year of the Cat live.

[115] Let us make that date.

[116] Yes, that would lose my shit.

[117] Well, this is an exciting revelation, and I think one of many that'll come, because we know each other.

[118] We've known each other for five years now, but there is so much I don't know about you.

[119] So this is a great revelation.

[120] Do you, in general, like Yacht Rock?

[121] I do.

[122] Yeah, I do.

[123] I don't know if Steely Dan qualifies as Yacht Rock, but I've seen Steely Dan twice, both times been the youngest member of the audience.

[124] But, like, I feel like this is the argument that everyone makes as to why everyone should love Steely Dan.

[125] The lyrics are really biting and weird, and then they have the sickest session musicians playing with them.

[126] And it's just because something sounds easy doesn't mean that it's easy to make.

[127] And so, like, I appreciate the hell out of it.

[128] I can't understand how we've gone five years without talking about Steely Dan because I've seen Steely Dan more than any other group.

[129] That is my exact same sales pitch.

[130] They find the very best studio musicians on the planet.

[131] Like every time their drummer is Neil Pert level awesome drummer.

[132] Yeah, the music is so complex and delightful.

[133] Oh, I fucking love Steely Dan.

[134] And weird chords.

[135] Yeah, like weird chords.

[136] And the lyrics, do you find yourself like, I guess I had, attribute all the lyrics to Donald Faison.

[137] That's another name.

[138] No. That's the Scrubs guy.

[139] That's the Scrubs guy.

[140] That's my co -star on Scrubs.

[141] Yeah.

[142] Donald Fagan.

[143] I don't know why.

[144] I've not read that he wrote those lyrics, but he just strikes me as the guy that's writing all those weird lyrics.

[145] Do you have a similar opinion?

[146] I think both he and Walter Becker, like they collaborated on some stuff.

[147] But I mean, like, from what I understand, a lot of the weird sort of esoteric kind of biting, darkly comic lyrics came from Donald Fagan's weird brain.

[148] Yeah, and then there's like Burroughs references.

[149] Yeah.

[150] To dine behind the wheel.

[151] He's having dinner behind the wheel.

[152] What an eclectic group of lyrics.

[153] And, yeah, I just always trying to figure out what his lifestyle was while he was writing that stuff.

[154] Oh, okay.

[155] So die behind the wheel.

[156] That's from Deacon Blues, right?

[157] I'm out.

[158] Call me Deacon Please.

[159] So that song, I read somewhere, I could be wrong.

[160] It's on the internet.

[161] Who knows what the fuck I'm reading?

[162] But, like, I read it was about the Wake Forest basketball team.

[163] No. Yeah, it's like, it's like a pretty.

[164] What?

[165] Yeah, it's like, that's what it was.

[166] I was thinking that it was like about like gambling and all sorts of other stuff and weirdness and maybe about sex.

[167] But no, they're like, no, this is about the Wake Forest basketball team.

[168] Nothing but blues in Elvis in somebody else's favorite song.

[169] My goodness.

[170] All right.

[171] So we shan't do it here because no one else will enjoy it.

[172] But earmark this, that the next time we're around each other, which I'm sure we'll be soon, we're going to find a corner and we're just going to talk Steely Dan.

[173] Oh, yeah.

[174] Oh, I can do that.

[175] Now, you're from Dallas.

[176] And so here's the fun thing I was alluding to, which is I know you pretty well.

[177] and I've been around you a million times, but I don't know a ton about you.

[178] So even I think maybe when I read Dallas this morning, I was like, huh, Williams from Dallas.

[179] Yeah.

[180] Maybe it makes sense, but I need to compute it.

[181] Yeah.

[182] I got to run it through the synthesizer.

[183] What kind of neighborhood in Dallas did you grow up in?

[184] What was that like?

[185] All right.

[186] So I was born in Oak Cliff, which is for folks that know Dallas, it's southern part.

[187] When I was growing up, it was like a really diverse.

[188] neighborhood.

[189] And I lived there until I was about seven or eight or something.

[190] And then we moved out to the suburbs to this suburb called Rowlett.

[191] I was out there pretty much until I graduated and went away to college.

[192] Not as diverse.

[193] Not as diverse.

[194] Not at first.

[195] As a matter of fact, I remember, I didn't know this at the time, but I know that my grandparents talked to my mom.

[196] They were like, y 'all sure, y 'all want to move out there?

[197] It's like, are there any other black folks out there and then they were like, yeah, you know, and so this is where they wanted to be.

[198] Yeah, so we moved out there, and I don't know, I mean, like, I had a fine childhood there, but I didn't quite fit.

[199] It wasn't like I was some sort of pariah, like everybody hated me. No one understood me some sort of tortured artist shit.

[200] It wasn't that.

[201] It was just, I was just felt like a little bit outside of everything.

[202] Yeah, a little disproportionate.

[203] Yeah.

[204] This happens all the time when you come to meet actors who are already succeeding and have some confident.

[205] So you have major rhythm.

[206] Like, you're a very sexy dude.

[207] You're very confident and you're very attractive and you have major rhythm.

[208] Agreed.

[209] Agreed.

[210] Right, Monica?

[211] Yeah, I'll second that.

[212] Yeah, yeah.

[213] A devastating rhythm.

[214] And, you know, that could have happened later or you could have been that dude in high school.

[215] You never know with actors, right?

[216] Because they get a bunch of attention.

[217] They could have adopted it later on.

[218] But what were you like in high school?

[219] Oh, man, I was, I mean, that's a chubby little weirdo.

[220] I like tried to play sports.

[221] I was terrible at it.

[222] I was not a very good student either.

[223] I think I was like, at least in like freshman year, I remember like sucking at everything so bad and being nervous about how bad I was at everything that it just sort of got me in this weird cycle where I just kept spiraling down where I was like, you know, like I sucked at sports.

[224] And then I was like, okay, well, maybe I'll get the grades together.

[225] And then I just sucked at that.

[226] And then it was just terrible.

[227] It was just such a fucking disaster.

[228] Did you act in high school?

[229] I did.

[230] That was the one thing that I was okay at.

[231] Oh man. I remember the first day of high school.

[232] I had my, God damn it.

[233] I had my friend Shannon.

[234] He put a texturizer on my hair and gave me a haircut.

[235] Wait, how old was he really quick?

[236] Oh, he was 14.

[237] We were both 14.

[238] Perfect.

[239] And I couldn't get to the barbershop to get that first day of high school haircut.

[240] And so he's like, I'll cut your hair for you.

[241] And I'll put some S -curled Duke on there for you.

[242] And I'll put some really strong chemicals in it.

[243] Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it'll texturize it, and yeah, you'll look great.

[244] And, bro, I mean, I walked into school looking like fucking rotten cauliflower.

[245] It was just like a fucking disaster.

[246] It was so bad.

[247] It was another great similarity.

[248] So my brother had convinced me, because I did anything he did, he was five years older.

[249] And he told me in the summer between 8th and 9th grade, you got to get a permanent.

[250] They're awesome.

[251] You'll have body.

[252] We both have straight hair.

[253] You're going to fucking love having a perm.

[254] And I'm like, sign me up.

[255] But I also had a short long, so I had really long hair in back that was straight as a fucking waterfall.

[256] And then all this inordinate wave and curls up top, it was horrendous.

[257] And that's how I started a new high school in ninth grade.

[258] Oh, God.

[259] Oh, that's terrible.

[260] That's fucking awful.

[261] So what did mom and dad do?

[262] Mom is a nurse.

[263] And she's been a nurse.

[264] Actually, she went back to nursing school.

[265] Well, I was in middle school.

[266] and my little sister was in elementary school.

[267] And dad actually passed when I was eight.

[268] No. Yeah.

[269] So he and my mom actually, part of the reason why we wound up moving out to Rallet around that time was they wanted to get us into a house before he knew his time was coming.

[270] He was 31 and he was.

[271] Oh, my.

[272] And he had leukemia.

[273] And he and my mom worked their asses off, moved us out to the suburbs.

[274] So we had a little house.

[275] and stuff, and then within, I think we moved out there in, like, Halloween of 87, and he passed by the summer of 88.

[276] Oof, that makes me think of that Michael Keaton movie where he knew he was going to die and he was trying his hardest to, like, pass on everything he could possibly pass on.

[277] Yeah.

[278] Did that happen?

[279] Absolutely.

[280] Were some of it, not to make it light, but I imagine maybe he wanted to give you some talks that you didn't really need to have at eight years old.

[281] I mean, you know, he avoided some of the cringier aspects of it.

[282] Okay.

[283] I remember actually getting in a lot of fights because he knew that he was not going to be around for a long time.

[284] And he was like, I can't have my son just let people run all over him.

[285] So anytime some kid was aggressive with me or pushed me or shoved me, he was like, well, now you got to wolf his ass.

[286] And so, like, it was a lot of that.

[287] And so I remember as a little kid, I would, I was.

[288] fighting a lot and then I remember actually there's this one time there was this a kid he wanted me to make sure that I took care of my sister and took care of my mom and stuff like that I mean like not that I could take care of my mom as a five year old but he wanted me to be sure to look out for my little sister and this little kid I guess one day I was at school he hit her when they were outside and he came and picked me up from school and he was like hey so your little friend hit your sister today.

[289] So, you know, what are you going to do about that?

[290] And I remember I had a little gym bag that I wore as a backpack because I was five and didn't know any better.

[291] And we pull up to our apartment.

[292] And around the corner comes my friend who had hit my sister.

[293] And he was like, hi, William.

[294] And I just dropped the bag and just fucking decked him.

[295] And they just jumped off.

[296] Just beat this little kid's ass.

[297] And then my dad like pulled me off.

[298] And then my dad like pulled me off.

[299] And then took me inside.

[300] But he was actually, I mean, I wasn't in trouble.

[301] He was proud.

[302] He was just like, this is kind of what you have to do.

[303] I don't have time for you to grow into this.

[304] You got to learn how to deal with this now.

[305] Do you fight those instincts now?

[306] Like, do you still have that instinct?

[307] Dax does.

[308] Are we identical to Wade, Bill?

[309] I just don't know it.

[310] No, well, the thing is, I have a lot of unexpressed anger and violent impulses, but I don't never act on them just because that'll just be the end of my life.

[311] Like, I don't know.

[312] not a fight.

[313] I'm just going to get my ass beat.

[314] Like, that's the way this goes now.

[315] Can I ask, did they let you in on it?

[316] And at what age?

[317] Like, were they very transparent with, like, your dad's sick?

[318] He has leukemia.

[319] You won't be very old when he dies.

[320] Or did that happen kind of last minute?

[321] Well, we were kind of in this weird holding pattern because my dad was diagnosed when I was two.

[322] And my sister, like, either just been born or was about to be born.

[323] And so, they actually didn't think he was going to be around for most of my child.

[324] They gave him under two years that he was going to survive with his condition.

[325] And so the fact that he lived for six after the diagnosis was a really kind of a weird anomaly.

[326] And so like I guess they were transparent about like dad might go away.

[327] But that's not what life was about.

[328] It was just I think for him he was like, okay, well, I don't have long.

[329] So every day he's got to count.

[330] And it did.

[331] Like, yeah.

[332] I mean, like, my parents really navigated that in a way that I could not imagine.

[333] I can't imagine your mother being pregnant, having a two -year -old and finding that out.

[334] That is...

[335] Dude, my mom's a fucking G. She would have taught you to fight without your dad's instruction?

[336] I mean, yeah, I mean, there's definitely some moments coming up where she was just like, okay, I guess what I should tell this young boy to do is this.

[337] Get violent.

[338] You know, she was, yeah, she was figuring, you know, there was aspects of her figuring it out.

[339] But, I mean, like, my mom is tough as fucking nails.

[340] She went back to school, single mom, then put herself through school, have no help put me and my sister through school.

[341] She's a beast.

[342] Did she ever get remarried?

[343] No. No, never did.

[344] I want her to.

[345] Yes.

[346] I want her to find somebody.

[347] Yeah.

[348] My mom is recently widowed, and she did about two years of morning.

[349] And boy, she is so active on those.

[350] dating sites she has the fullest fucking dance card i talked to her a couple times a week and it's always like i'm checking in with an mtv reality show like how many dudes she's been out with like this guy this guy we should do a season of your mom loves boys oh my god i should i should is it like dramatic i don't know if we'll ever get there you know that sort of stuff does she say that's been the whole gamut bill she got laid one time and it had been years and she called me like clearly on a pink cloud like she was i mean it was obvious she had just gotten banged she was so happy and she was like i don't care what happens like i just if i can get that occasionally that's great and then she fell in love and then that thing blew up and was fucking yeah i mean it is like watching like an mtv show it's the whole thing oh man casual sex love damage record You know, it's like, I feel like my mom has gone out on dates.

[351] I mean, there was, you know, a dude that she was dating when I was in high school for a while.

[352] He was around.

[353] He was a good guy.

[354] It wound up not working out.

[355] But, like, I feel like since then, it's like she's going on a few dates with dudes.

[356] But, I mean, I think at this point, there's something about, like, my mom is, you got a fit with what she's got going on at this point.

[357] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[358] You know, she's been doing her all.

[359] thing by herself and dragging all of us along with her, you know, making sure that we're okay.

[360] The train is flying down the tracks.

[361] If you want to hook the caboose to it, you're welcome to it.

[362] Yeah, you got to jump on, but you can't come up in here with a whole bunch of like demands and thoughts.

[363] It's like, you better just get with the program.

[364] Well, do you have any of the syndrome I have, which is I didn't have a dad around.

[365] So I was so desperate for male approval.

[366] Everything you see to this day, right?

[367] The tattoos and motorcycles and all the risky behavior was, I think, all in search of, like, I needed some dudes to tell me, like, you're on track to be a man. There's nothing like the hit you get from that, right?

[368] I think one of the reasons why I wanted to be good at sports, which I was decidedly not.

[369] It was just in order to have someone be like, fuck yeah, that's why I'm fucking talking about, you know, like, I like that.

[370] I love that feeling.

[371] at us among the boys, yeah.

[372] It's like, I like you so much and I love what you did so much that I'm gonna fucking punch you.

[373] Like, I love that.

[374] It's a sweet elixir.

[375] Yeah, it is.

[376] It eluded me for a long time.

[377] So I definitely crave it.

[378] I think that it's just the way that I am, the way that I'm built, it's just something that doesn't come easy.

[379] And at some point, I kind of just learn to do without as much of that as I would like.

[380] Yeah, yeah.

[381] I think the acting thing is part of that.

[382] Yeah, found a different tribe.

[383] Yeah.

[384] One of my favorite things is, like, we had this basketball game with me and a bunch of other, like, New York theater actors in my old neighborhood in Brooklyn.

[385] And, I mean, we call it basketball for poets because, I mean, we all, we all suck.

[386] I mean, like, none of us are good.

[387] But every now and again, like, a really good player would show up.

[388] And if you could impress that guy and you get a hell yeah from him, that felt like, I fucking miss my calling.

[389] I should be in the fucking G -League right now, you know?

[390] Yeah, yeah.

[391] It's like, I'm good at 41, right?

[392] I'm good, right?

[393] So, what age were you when you moved to New York?

[394] I was 24.

[395] And clearly you were going there to act, yeah?

[396] Yeah.

[397] Was it scary, or did you have, like, great excitement about going?

[398] Man, it's a little bit of both, obviously, right?

[399] But it's like, I think, like, I had gone back to Dallas to save a little money.

[400] so I could go up to New York and have something for a rainy day in case it took a long time finding a day job or something like that.

[401] I think in the end, like the excitement sort of wins out because everything that I had done in my life up until that point was geared towards me going to New York and having a theater career.

[402] That was the point.

[403] And if I didn't at least try that, then it's like, well, you know, what was the point of studying for four years?

[404] And so, yeah, it's a lot of excitement, but so much fear.

[405] I thought the city was going to eat me alive.

[406] it's quite a place to get dropped into i think la is a lot easier if you're from detroit or dallas or whatever i was afraid about it actually oh really yeah because you didn't know how to read a thomas guide or i don't know i don't know what that is what is the thomas guy anyone who moved to l .a in the 90s or early 2000s before navigation this place is so fucking enormous right and you'd have these auditions and they would tell you like what's this address and you're like well what do i do now i mean this place is here so you had this thomas guide map and you'd look up the street and then it'd give you like coordinates on a page like g6 and you'd look for it and then you'd map out your fucking trajectory to this place and it was most of your day was using the time oh my god get everywhere oh god i think that like l .a felt like a place that and i still kind of maintain this it's a place that when you're sad, it feels like you're the only sad motherfucker in the city.

[407] Sure, sure, sure.

[408] Yeah, that makes sense.

[409] New York, I think everyone's a little bit pissed off all the time.

[410] Everything's just a little hard.

[411] Like, going to the grocery store is just kind of hard.

[412] Yeah.

[413] You know, just doing the basic shit.

[414] It's just tough.

[415] Only 200 people there love their apartment.

[416] Yeah.

[417] In the city of 12 million.

[418] Everything's just a little bit wrong.

[419] I think I just trust it.

[420] But the fact that everything's just like a little bit fucked up means that like, okay, that's real.

[421] That feels organic and human.

[422] You're right.

[423] Because, yeah, when I moved to LA, I was like, everyone is so smiley.

[424] And I think we're all unemployed.

[425] Yeah.

[426] I don't think anyone I'm seeing is employed.

[427] Yeah.

[428] It's like, we're not having it.

[429] You're not in a good mood.

[430] Shut up.

[431] Stop.

[432] Some people did broke so well.

[433] Like, I was broke and it drove me nuts.

[434] I was like panicked all the time if I was going to make rent and stuff.

[435] And I was not walking around with a big old smile.

[436] But everyone had.

[437] else seemed to be.

[438] Yeah, I don't get it.

[439] But was it also, I mean, you clearly wanted to do stage acting, so also L .A. would have been a silly choice.

[440] And I think for me, I just didn't think that TV and film was going to want me. Just straight up, I just was like, I'm a weirdo.

[441] Like, stage, I can be on stage and people will be like, oh, yeah, that guy's weird, but he's so far away, it doesn't matter.

[442] But, like, being on TV, I was like, the story.

[443] dumb, dumb image of yourself.

[444] Well, all three of us, all three of us.

[445] We're not pointing any fingers.

[446] It's true.

[447] The human condition.

[448] Yeah.

[449] And it's like, I got this little baby tooth.

[450] Like, I got all these like things that are just wrong that I'm like, yeah, you know.

[451] And I don't have the money to fix this baby tooth.

[452] It's like I'm going to go on stage where no one can see that gap.

[453] You know, and just, you know, live my best life there.

[454] And also I think that like theater was just a much more interactive medium for me. You know, you go into a room, you work on something for four weeks, you ask a bunch of weird questions, you do the scene dead ass wrong for a week just to see why you don't do it that way.

[455] And then you're really prepared and you're just kind of going on this journey every night.

[456] And I found it much more fulfilling.

[457] Yeah.

[458] What is harder?

[459] Because when I think about moving to New York and trying to get on Broadway, is that harder than getting employed on television, would you say?

[460] I mean, that's the cool thing about theaters.

[461] You can find a 80 -seat house somewhere that you could probably at least get on a stage.

[462] But I'm saying, like, kind of succeed at it.

[463] It feels almost harder.

[464] Broadway is tough.

[465] A, I wasn't a musical theater guy.

[466] I was a straight theater guy.

[467] And there's not a whole lot of straight plays on Broadway for unknowns, right?

[468] So, like, if you're just showing up, if they're going to do a straight play, they're going to get some star to anchor.

[469] or the thing, and then they'll probably put some other sort of well -known people around them, and then if you're lucky, you'll have a really small sort of something to do maybe if you're an unknown.

[470] So it's like, that's tough.

[471] But the off Broadway scene is like, that's the stuff that actually gets me excited.

[472] Yeah.

[473] That's where the straight plays mostly are.

[474] Your Neil Lebutte -type, real depressing, fair.

[475] Yeah, yeah.

[476] Yeah, that real sad shit.

[477] The stuff that just mixed to you, yeah.

[478] The kind of play that can turn even the best day around.

[479] Oh, yeah.

[480] The kind where you go to the bar afterwards, and you're just sort of like, I always knew there was something wrong with me, but I didn't know until I saw it tonight and somebody else.

[481] Yeah, I couldn't articulate why I didn't want to be alive.

[482] Now I know.

[483] Now I get it.

[484] Now I get it.

[485] These are my flaws.

[486] What were you doing right before you got cast on the good place?

[487] You must have been having some pretty good success on the stage at that point.

[488] yeah things were fine i was doing a lot of off -broadway plays i'd just done a broadway play maybe a year before my first and up till now my last broadway play wait was that that's not all the way is that all the way yeah yeah all the way which one of tony so you were in that and it won a tony while you were there yeah yeah yeah did that like help did that get things moving not so much Like, that show is LBJ's show.

[489] That is, like, Brian Cranston played LBJ.

[490] It was his show.

[491] And there's, like, a few actors that had, like, some really good supporting parts.

[492] But a lot of us were just sort of popping in and out.

[493] So everyone was great.

[494] It was a killer cast.

[495] But it's, like, when someone, like, Brian Cranston's doing the kind of work that he was doing in that part, that's really all that you really clock to come away.

[496] Yeah, you know, it's like no one's...

[497] Like, even if you're...

[498] And you got like 20 points that night, probably you got missed.

[499] Yeah, exactly.

[500] That's exactly what it is.

[501] Side note about Pippin.

[502] I mean, do you guys watch the last dance, right?

[503] Obsessed.

[504] It's our religion.

[505] And it blew my mind when I found out that he was like at one point, like the second best player on this championship team and was like the 182nd highest paid player, which was just like.

[506] We had so many conversations about this because I found it so unjust.

[507] And I also think that says something about me as a person.

[508] Like, I'm like, that's not fair, that that second best is not getting their...

[509] Well, it's like he's second best on the Bulls.

[510] I mean, he's probably easily, like, the second best player in the entire league, you know?

[511] And so it's like he's elite in a way.

[512] Monica and I fought for at least five weeks on that exact issue.

[513] Really?

[514] Which I was like, look, he chose security.

[515] Like, he took a shitty contract because it had security.

[516] He was going to get paid out for seven years, whether he got hurt or not.

[517] Yeah.

[518] And that sucks that he took the safe, the layup.

[519] That blows.

[520] I'm heartbroken for him for it, but you can't take the security plate and then also get the big bet on yourself payout.

[521] I'm sorry.

[522] There's like a reality to the marketplace in the world.

[523] Yeah.

[524] Yeah.

[525] I think it's just like what you want is for people to note.

[526] I mean, you want the world to do the different place.

[527] You want people to be like, okay, you know what, man, you are contributing a lot.

[528] We're getting the hell of a deal here.

[529] You weren't going to give you a raise.

[530] You know, like, no, they're not going to do that.

[531] Yeah, yeah.

[532] I want that.

[533] I wanted that.

[534] I would have been awesome, yeah, of Jerry Krauser, whoever owned that team.

[535] No. Was he on that team?

[536] I'm forgetting all the names.

[537] Yeah, if he would have just been like, I look like a fucking dick that I'm only paid.

[538] Yeah, like just like, read the room.

[539] Look around.

[540] Like, come on.

[541] Read the room.

[542] Do the right thing.

[543] Yeah, but I did get hung up on the, like, well, that's what sucks about life.

[544] There's a lot of times you take the safe plane and then you look back and I'm like, fuck, I should have just done a one -year contract, should have done two -year contract, should have, yeah.

[545] He was taking care of his family.

[546] Look, he's a nice guy.

[547] We don't need to read that.

[548] We've finally gotten over this.

[549] I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

[550] You pulled the scab off the single.

[551] I'm sorry.

[552] It's just, I don't know, I mean, that documentary is one of my favorite things ever and I just, like, keep thinking about it.

[553] I mean, it's also objectively still a lot of money.

[554] It's just given what it was.

[555] That's worse because they say, well, look how much money you're getting.

[556] You're doing great.

[557] You shouldn't complain.

[558] Right.

[559] This is what they say.

[560] Betting on yourself is a big part of why that went the way it did.

[561] And that's just the fact.

[562] Stay tuned for more armchair expert.

[563] If you dare.

[564] What's up, guys, this is your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season.

[565] And let me tell you, it's too good.

[566] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[567] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[568] And I don't mean just friends.

[569] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[570] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[571] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[572] We've all been there.

[573] to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[574] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[575] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[576] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[577] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[578] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[579] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[580] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[581] I'm as offended that there is a quarterback making twice as much as our boyfriend.

[582] Tom Brady?

[583] Tom Brady, yeah.

[584] That angered me this year.

[585] Who's making...

[586] Mahone, his contract is for $500 million.

[587] Oh, my God.

[588] He's making $50 million a year, and Brady's making $25 million year.

[589] And Brady took a fucking terrible team and destroyed the guy who's making $500 million.

[590] And I'm like, well, that's...

[591] Wow.

[592] Yeah, yeah.

[593] No, I think it's also one of those.

[594] It's just the realities of age, right?

[595] I mean, I think people are just sort of kind of against them.

[596] It's kind of ages them a little bit.

[597] I mean, truly, that's exactly what it is.

[598] It's just, like, totally tolerated in sports.

[599] The dude's been to seven of the last nine Super Bowls, and he's not the most valuable fucking human on the party in that department?

[600] And he's not slowing down, which is, you know, like, he's getting better.

[601] He had a shittier team and did better.

[602] Yeah, it's nuts.

[603] I can't wait for that 30 for 30.

[604] I'm just so curious, like, when will he fall off the cliff?

[605] You're like, when will it be like, it's like, okay, you know, and I just can't do this anymore.

[606] and you just throws like 30 picks in a year.

[607] You know, like, when is that out?

[608] We'll be long dead, you and I. I hate to tell you this, but we won't witness that.

[609] That'll probably parallel world peace and socialized medicine.

[610] I think those things will all pretend to it at the same time.

[611] It's like, once that all happens, like Tom Brady will just be like, I'm done here.

[612] And then just disappear into a ball of light, you know, just like, world peace, hunger is done.

[613] Oh, boy.

[614] now I'm really curious, and it's weird I've never asked you this in real life, but I assume you auditioned for the good place.

[615] Like, how did that come to be?

[616] So I had actually sort of, I hit a wall with theater.

[617] Yeah, it says on the internet you were about to quit acting.

[618] I don't know if that's apocryphal or not.

[619] Yeah, I was really thinking about it.

[620] I was actually talking to a lot of my friends about it and they were just like, shut up.

[621] And I was like, okay, you know, you're right.

[622] But I mean, there's also a lot of truth to it.

[623] I was in my mid -30s and it was just like, you know, I kind of want something resembling stability at some point.

[624] I can't be doing this.

[625] exactly the way I'm doing it even though there are aspects of it that are fulfilling, I can't be doing this in 15 years.

[626] I can't have a ton of roommates and no savings.

[627] Yeah, you don't want to raise kids with roommates probably.

[628] No, no, you know?

[629] And so I was like, I think I need to shift things a little bit.

[630] So I started entertaining the thought of leaving the business and also I was like, okay, look, I mean, I never really, really given the TV and film thing a fair shot.

[631] So I'm going to have this all hands -on -deck sort of situation.

[632] I'm going to get a manager.

[633] I'm going to do the whole thing.

[634] I'm going to go out to L .A. and I'm going to audition and I'm going to do one more pilot season and just see.

[635] See if I can get to a point where it feels like this is possible for me to actually make a living and be stable in some form or fashion.

[636] And actually, the audition for the good place was the first thing that I, I think it was like the first or second audition that I had of that pilot season.

[637] And I did a pre -read in New York.

[638] It didn't go particularly well or anything.

[639] Was it a self -tape?

[640] I went into an office and I had a reader.

[641] It felt like we were just in like this.

[642] Who had also been your Uber driver?

[643] I mean, could have been.

[644] Because it's a comedy, but when someone doesn't understand timing and then you say your line and then they're just like, okay.

[645] So what do you mean by that?

[646] And then it's like, there's just like so much.

[647] and you just feel it and it was like, oh, God.

[648] I thought that wasn't going to fly, but I wound up going out to L .A. Do you have your bro from ninth grade, touch up your hair before you went on?

[649] Okay, so, not my bro from the ninth grade, but another guy.

[650] Oh, God.

[651] Wow, I just actually landed on something, Monica.

[652] I just said I hit payered somehow.

[653] I know.

[654] This is exciting.

[655] Like, throwaway joke, yeah.

[656] No, because I actually met Kristen, like when I was auditioned for that, and I had this fucking side show Bob looking fade that I had gotten on accident long story short I was supposed to go to Sundance for this anything that I had done and I was like well I need to get a haircut my barber was closed I went to this other guy I go down there and I was like yeah just give me a fade and he was like okay cool he gets on the phone he turns me away from the mirror and just my man goes to work and just takes off everything around the sides My man goes to work.

[657] And, like, my girlfriend, Allie was, she was, like, sitting there looking.

[658] She was like, um, is, um, I, um, like, I don't, is that, is that what you actually want it?

[659] And I was like, oh, I don't know.

[660] He turned me around.

[661] And I look like a soccer player from, like, Aston Villa.

[662] I mean, I look ridiculous.

[663] And so, anyway, I had this awful, awful haircut.

[664] My old roommates had this joke.

[665] They were like, Jesus Christ, man, like, you don't look like the weekend.

[666] and you look like the weekday.

[667] You know?

[668] It was just like, yeah.

[669] So anyway, like, I flew out to L .A. with my terrible haircut, feeling, really feeling myself.

[670] I was like, I guess I know how this is supposed to go.

[671] I get a call, like, within a couple of days of landing in L .A., that they wanted to bring me in for a producer session for The Good Place.

[672] And I was like, oh, cool, great.

[673] I'm so surprised.

[674] And went in, had a great time.

[675] Was Kristen at that?

[676] No. It was, like, Morgan.

[677] and Mike and Drew and Ben and that nicest team of people and show business of all time.

[678] Oh, yeah.

[679] Best boys.

[680] So sweet.

[681] I mean, everyone, they were so nice.

[682] You know, it's like when people are rooting for you, they want everyone to be good.

[683] And it's like, that's nice.

[684] And so went in, did that.

[685] We had a great time, great conversation.

[686] I go back up to my, I think I rented a Dodge Neon from like Renerick that like had a window that didn't go down.

[687] To match your hair.

[688] Yeah.

[689] Yeah, you wanted to do the whole look.

[690] Bro, I mean, the car looked like it was going to...

[691] You remember the GoBots?

[692] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[693] You know, it was just like these...

[694] It was going to turn it to a trash can.

[695] Yeah, it's just like...

[696] It was like that kind of car, and I felt like that kind of man. And by the time I got up there, I got in a call saying that they wanted to test me. And then I go in for the test, like a week later, and KB is in there.

[697] And I wasn't expecting that.

[698] And I'm scared of her at this point.

[699] You know, like, I'm sure, sure, sure.

[700] I still am.

[701] Yeah, like, she's fancy.

[702] It's like, I'm just some dude.

[703] She's fancy.

[704] This bitch only shops at Target.

[705] Little did you know.

[706] She is not fancy at all.

[707] She's lovely, but she ain't fancy.

[708] I mean, Target fanci as fuck.

[709] I don't know what y 'all is playing.

[710] So we read and we have a great time.

[711] It's just easy.

[712] Yeah, you guys have a really fucking beautiful.

[713] natural, effortless chemistry.

[714] You know, this was one of the things that I clocked in Kristen, like, pretty much right off the bat, is that she makes things look way easier than they actually are.

[715] Yeah, frustratingly so.

[716] Yeah, yeah.

[717] It's like, that's actually a tough joke to blend and actually get all the beats.

[718] And have the emotion.

[719] Like, that's what always blows me away with her is like, oh, she can be operating on every single level at the same time take one yeah exactly and it's like I feel like it always takes me a few minutes to warm up and she's just there and I'm like Jesus Christ it's like she makes it look easy that's what we call her acting robot she's an acting robot she really is she can do anything acting AI maybe we should kind of elevate it to AI oh that's nice yeah I remember when she did the chemistry read with you and she came home we were chatting a lot about that project obviously because she was really exciting she's going to get to work with Mike and all this, and during that casting process, and she was like, I think we found our cheaty.

[720] And I was like, oh, really?

[721] Who is it?

[722] Like, I wondered if it was, you know, I don't know, someone I knew.

[723] Wesley Snipes.

[724] Yeah, yeah, I was hoping.

[725] I was crossing my fingers.

[726] And she was like, yeah, this guy from New York, and there's just something really, really special about him.

[727] Oh, good.

[728] She was saying it from the beginning.

[729] I want to add what awesome chemistry you had is that numerous times when we would watch the show I would be like pissed that you're not kissing her like oh my God kiss her I was rooting so much for you guys to fucking make love right in front of me it's like I remember like actually Krista said to me like in time she makes out with anybody and you were watching it that you say yeah get some like this is your this is your damn this is like root for it Oh, it's even worse than that.

[730] Like, I remember she had done some movie, we were maybe three years into dating or something.

[731] And I'm like, what the fuck was that makeout scene?

[732] She's like, what, what?

[733] And I'm like, there's no tongue or anything.

[734] Like, this is such a fucking TV kiss.

[735] What's going on?

[736] And she's like, yeah, I guess I'm supposed, can I just go for it?

[737] I'm like, fucking go for it.

[738] Like, they're aiming a camera at you to convey passion.

[739] Like, yeah, fucking eat the guy's face off.

[740] Oh, boy.

[741] That's your job.

[742] You know, one of these days, you and me are going to have a kissing scene.

[743] I would love it.

[744] And it's just going to be, yeah, just stubble on stubble.

[745] Both of our face is going to be raw as hell.

[746] But the good raw.

[747] Yeah, it's like it doesn't look like you fell off the bike, but you definitely like grazed your chin on a brick wall as we're riding by swiftly.

[748] You know?

[749] So we've had Darcyon and we've talked to Mike and we've had Kristen talk about it.

[750] I think everyone knows, like, such a magical experience for all you folks.

[751] Like, just a beautiful, I don't want to say you guys didn't work hard, but like civil schedule, civil people, kindness abound.

[752] Ted Danzin, how the fuck are you going to be that nice and that successful?

[753] That shouldn't even happen.

[754] But I just feel like, man, what a great first show for you to have.

[755] It doesn't get any better than that.

[756] I would tell people about what the vibe was like.

[757] on the show, and people were like, that's not normal, man. And I'm like, oh, really?

[758] He's like, no, no. It's like, there's always at least one monster.

[759] And the fact that you had none of them is unique.

[760] I think the thing, especially with having, like, Ted and Kristen, actors like that set the tone.

[761] And if they show up in their assholes, it gives other people license to follow some of their more base impulses.

[762] And the fact that they both show up and get nerdy, about the script and about, like, intentions and telling the story and what we're actually saying and the fact that they're so invested and they want it to be good and they want to pass the ball off.

[763] They're not selfish actors either.

[764] They want to, like, throw you your joke.

[765] They want to make sure that they set you up sometimes, too, as much as you're setting them up.

[766] And that's not everybody.

[767] And the fact that we have such renowned actors that are as good as they are reported to be and kinder than you would expect.

[768] I don't know.

[769] I think it set the tone for everybody.

[770] The joke I always used to make is it'd be the best fucking set to be a pickpocket on.

[771] Like, I would visit there.

[772] I'm like, oh, everyone's kind and nice and generous.

[773] I feel like some con artist needs to get in here quick.

[774] Yeah.

[775] And it's also Mike, sure, it's like he's a deeply good dude.

[776] So he surrounds himself with other deeply good people.

[777] And he also empowers everyone to bring their imagination to bring their point of view to the work.

[778] So, like, our art team was just, like, the jokes that they had that we laughed at before we had to start shooting was just top -notch.

[779] And I think it was because everyone felt empowered to do their job.

[780] That's a great environment to be in.

[781] So I was so thrilled once that show was successful, and you got nominated for an Emmy as you so deserved, and you got nominated for a couple of Critics' Choice Awards.

[782] I've got to be around you when these things are happening, which is so delightful to watch.

[783] It's just so great.

[784] And then I was just so fucking delighted that in the wake of that you've gotten to do so much stuff.

[785] So you have several things that are coming out and or you're about to start.

[786] I guess the one I'm really most curious about is the Underground Railroad because Barry Jenkins made it.

[787] The dude who did Moonlight and if Beale Street could talk.

[788] Yeah.

[789] Tell me about that.

[790] That's on Amazon.

[791] Yeah.

[792] It's based on the Colson Whitehead novel.

[793] I think I think all get to read that.

[794] Uh -uh.

[795] It's a great read, highly suggested.

[796] This is one of those jobs where it's like, I want to be a part of this story.

[797] I want to help tell it.

[798] I will do everything in my power to get this job.

[799] I am not getting this job.

[800] You know, just because I respect Barry Jenkins so much, but I also just like I loved that book.

[801] Had you read it long before the project was announced?

[802] No. I feel like I read it just before I audits.

[803] before I put the self -tape together.

[804] I could be mixing this up, but I feel like I read it just before because it was like, oh, it's a pretty quick read.

[805] I should see what this is actually all about because I really don't know who my character is just with the audition material.

[806] I loved it.

[807] I just wanted to be a part of telling that story.

[808] Is that writer Black?

[809] Yeah.

[810] Okay.

[811] Here's what I'm really curious about because growing up in Michigan, every kid in elementary school, you'd go on field trips to famous underground railroad houses and you'd get to see all the trap doors and the hidden passages and you would learn about it.

[812] And of course, it was told through the lens of white people, right?

[813] So it was like pretty much a self -congratulatory tour where we would go and feel great about being northerners.

[814] And that's pretty much my full knowledge of it.

[815] Yeah.

[816] Well, look, this is an alternate history, right?

[817] Like, you know, the Underground Railroad, in our story, it is an actual train.

[818] It is actual, like, train line underneath.

[819] And so, you know, I don't want to give too much away about it.

[820] but it's like it does dive into the psychological aspects of slavery in a way that I think is really unique.

[821] The train itself is like sort of this really interesting delivery device to sort of take us from place to place and have you have like sort of an analog for real events in American history.

[822] Like you're cruising along a timeline kind of?

[823] It's kind of like that to me. I mean like that's what it feels like for every episode along this journey, sort of major moment in the story, there is sort of, for me, there feels like there's a very direct link to something that actually happened, but this is an alternate history.

[824] So it's not that.

[825] And so it's like, I think that there's something about that extra element that's slightly more heightened.

[826] When does that come out?

[827] May 14.

[828] May 14th.

[829] I cannot wait.

[830] Okay.

[831] And then you're about to start Love Life?

[832] Yeah.

[833] Yeah.

[834] On HBO Max.

[835] So Anna Kendrick is the lead of season one.

[836] Yeah.

[837] I presume she's still the lead of season two?

[838] No, no, no. I'm the lead of season two.

[839] Okay, great.

[840] So explain that to me. That's exactly what I was curious about.

[841] I'm like, I went and watched a little bit of the first season.

[842] I'm like, how is this going to work?

[843] Oh, yeah.

[844] It's an anthology series.

[845] I think it's like every season it's going to follow a different person.

[846] But I mean, it's like she's going to be in the show in some capacity.

[847] Our worlds are going to collide.

[848] Okay.

[849] In some way.

[850] But it's going to follow my character.

[851] My character.

[852] And I'm ready.

[853] I just got to get a quick haircut and then I'll be on set.

[854] Oh, God.

[855] Oh, I'd be remiss if I didn't bring this up because I was remembering it when I was thinking about today, which is the finale of Good Place.

[856] I've heard from Kristen's perspective and I was just curious what yours was about like going to the Acropolis.

[857] And, man. I just want to set up to say.

[858] Like sometimes you do get to do stuff as an actor where you're like, well, this is a simulation because humans don't get to do this.

[859] And somehow this silly job of mine, I get to do this.

[860] Yeah.

[861] Dude, seeing the sunrise at the Acropolis with no one but us, like our crew, our people there, it's completely empty.

[862] Yeah, that was one of those moments where I'm like, outside of the people that are here right now, there's maybe.

[863] a few hundred other people that have gotten to have this moment.

[864] And in the context of you've spent four years together, it was loving and beautiful, this is the end, and we're ending it here.

[865] I'm getting goose pimples just thinking about it.

[866] What a heightened fucking experience.

[867] It was crazy.

[868] It was also like my first time going to Greece and going to Paris.

[869] I'd never been to Paris before.

[870] Like both of these places were just like, oh, wow, this is my job is taking me to two places of, always wanted to go.

[871] What the fuck is my life that I get to do this?

[872] Someone arranged ground transportation for me. Someone, yeah, someone arranged all this.

[873] I flew over there, all comfortable.

[874] And then I get to go to the Acropolis early and just be there.

[875] It was like, it was nuts.

[876] I remember like our final scene, the series that we shot was the scene on the bridge where Eleanor asked Cheedy to stay.

[877] And I remember.

[878] Kristen was doing her monologue to me about like stay and I was sort of listening and I see Mike sure walking across the bridge towards us and I knew at that point that it was actually over like this was it but there was something that it was like it felt wrong to just be like oh okay Mike's coming so okay that's I guess that's the end so I was like I'd rather just stay here finish the scene as much as we can until Mike actually gets here and then I remember we were in the middle of the scene and he came up and put his hand and ends on both of our backs and was like, all right, guys, that's a, that's a wrap on the series.

[879] And it was, you know, it was just like this, I just wanted to kind of hold on to it for just a little while longer because everything about it, everything about it had been so special.

[880] And I think that going to Europe and getting to share all that with this cast, it just basically, this had changed my life, you know.

[881] Yeah.

[882] It changed my life, like, 100%.

[883] And I just didn't want it to end.

[884] I just wanted to live in it for a little while longer just because it was, I just feel so grateful.

[885] Selfishly, I think the best thing that came out of that entire series, though, is you and Ted dancing on Instagram to that Orange Blossom song.

[886] What's the name of that song?

[887] I ended up buying it because of your guys' persuasive dancing.

[888] Oh, yeah.

[889] I can't remember what the name of the song is, but I know the name of the band is Gardens and Villa.

[890] Yeah.

[891] Do, do, do, do, do, do.

[892] Yeah.

[893] I watched that video like a hundred times in a row and then bought the song.

[894] One of our sound guys, Mike Nacastro, always had the dopest music playing at the sound cart.

[895] And so every now and again, I would just be like, yo, what is that?

[896] And make sure that I downloaded it immediately.

[897] And this song was happening, and Ted was, you know, trying to learn how to, he wants to do, like, when I dance, he wants to dance in the way that I dance.

[898] And so, like, of course.

[899] Everyone does.

[900] And so, yeah, we just kind of get down every now and again.

[901] Oh, man. Well, I actually implore people to go to your Instagram page.

[902] I have to imagine it's still there and watch it over and over and over again.

[903] That's the way I enjoyed consuming it.

[904] Block off like an hour.

[905] It doesn't get old.

[906] It doesn't get old.

[907] Okay, so Love Life, Season 2 on HBO Max.

[908] You're starting that.

[909] And then...

[910] There is a movie that I shot just before pandemic descended upon all of us called We Broke Up with IA Cash.

[911] and Tony Cavalero, who I think you're a big fan of from Righteous Jimstones.

[912] Yeah.

[913] And Sarah Bolger and Perry Gilpin.

[914] It's like a really great cast.

[915] And that comes out April 23rd.

[916] April 23rd on VOD.

[917] Yes.

[918] Right.

[919] And what's it called?

[920] We broke up.

[921] Written and directed by Jeff Rosenberg, who actually worked on The Good Place with us and this really great writer, Laura Jackman.

[922] So, yeah, I'm excited about that to finally come out.

[923] So, yeah, let's just blow Tony up a little bit.

[924] Tony, in a cast of amazing people on righteous gemstones, on a perfect show with a perfect cast, somehow that guy still is my favorite, Tony.

[925] I mean, the stuff he does is that character is transcendent.

[926] He's such a weirdo.

[927] He's so funny.

[928] He's so, and he's, I mean, he's funny.

[929] He's a fantastic actor, man. He is really fucking good.

[930] I actually hadn't watched gemstones yet before we started working on this movie.

[931] And I was like, oh, this guy's really good.

[932] I really like this guy.

[933] And then I saw him on Jimstones, I was like, this man is, he's fucking unhinged.

[934] I would have been a little starstruck, actually, if I had seen Jimstones before we started working.

[935] I just knew he was on it.

[936] Oh, yeah.

[937] I searched him out.

[938] Like, I think I DMed him or something.

[939] I stalked him.

[940] I was like, this is the craziest performance I've ever seen.

[941] It's so sincere.

[942] Yeah.

[943] Oh, is it sincere?

[944] It's so weird.

[945] It's so painfully sincere.

[946] I'm like.

[947] I just want him and Adam Devine to hook up in season two.

[948] Yes.

[949] Give us what we want.

[950] I root for them like Cheaty and whatever Chris's name.

[951] Eleanor.

[952] Who my wife's playing?

[953] Like Jeannie and Kristen Bell.

[954] Cheedy and Kristen Bell.

[955] Okay.

[956] Last thing, Bill.

[957] So much shit.

[958] Yeah, you're busy.

[959] So much stuff.

[960] Yeah.

[961] Allie loves it or is she starting to resent you and hate your guts?

[962] I think she likes the idea of the time with me. I think that I'm pretty sure.

[963] that I have graded her nerves down to fucking nothing at this point.

[964] But she's an incredibly patient and kind woman.

[965] Yeah, she's incredibly lovely.

[966] She's working on a show right now too, right?

[967] Yeah, yeah.

[968] We're actually here for her job, actually.

[969] Oh, in Atlanta?

[970] Yeah, yeah.

[971] You're down the street from me. I'm in Atlanta right now.

[972] So is Winica.

[973] Oh, we should.

[974] You guys should kiss, kiss, kiss, kiss, kiss.

[975] Oh, no. We could have been together.

[976] Damn it.

[977] I go home tomorrow.

[978] Yeah, I'm just here for like 10 days, seeing my family.

[979] Oh, snap.

[980] Dude, okay.

[981] I really like this city.

[982] Give Cheedy some shopping tips.

[983] Okay.

[984] Have you eaten at that crazy pizza joint?

[985] Which one?

[986] The super Italian one.

[987] You go in there and they throw it on the table.

[988] What's it called?

[989] The huge pizzas.

[990] They're huge and they slap them right on the table.

[991] It's so fucking good.

[992] I'll find it and text you guys.

[993] But Ponce City.

[994] I mean, shopping is not all that fun.

[995] right now.

[996] Although people are out and about, I have noticed since I'm in here.

[997] All right.

[998] So, like, here's something.

[999] Like, we're fucking from New York and L .A. And we're just like, we're nervous about all of this.

[1000] And we were walking around.

[1001] We were, like, just seeing, like, these bars and restaurants packed inside, you know?

[1002] Oh, yeah.

[1003] And then I'm like, okay, that's nuts.

[1004] But I remember on Valentine's Day, we were taking Chico.

[1005] for a walk, we are coming up the street and Allie goes, is that a tuba?

[1006] There's like this brass band on the corner just playing songs for people on Valentine's.

[1007] Because that's just Valentine's day like a fucking brass band in the middle of a goddamn pandemic.

[1008] And I was like, these motherfuckers are actually just standing out here just didn't breathe and spat it on.

[1009] Blowing air out.

[1010] Just blowing air.

[1011] And we were just like, this is nuts.

[1012] It's like motherfuckers out here with tubas in a pandemic.

[1013] Yeah, I mean, the only thing that could top that is like if you saw like a cherry seed spitting contest on the sidewalk.

[1014] Yeah.

[1015] It's getting close to that.

[1016] Yeah.

[1017] Like, why?

[1018] Like, anyway.

[1019] I know.

[1020] I went to the park and met some friends the other day and, you know, I was really nervous.

[1021] And we were outside and we were all spread out and it was fine, but I was super nervous.

[1022] And then all of a sudden I started looking around.

[1023] I was like, this place is getting packed.

[1024] What's happening?

[1025] And then there's a guy nearby blowing bubbles, literally blowing bubbles for kids.

[1026] And I was like, I got to get out of here.

[1027] COVID delivery systems?

[1028] Yeah.

[1029] This is a super spreader event.

[1030] Wow.

[1031] How?

[1032] Yeah.

[1033] Atlanta's a cool town, though.

[1034] I really like it here.

[1035] William, I love you.

[1036] I adore you.

[1037] I can't wait to see you again.

[1038] I miss you.

[1039] Yeah, I miss you too.

[1040] Miss you too, Monica.

[1041] Dang.

[1042] I know.

[1043] We got to get together.

[1044] When are you back?

[1045] When are you guys back?

[1046] I don't know.

[1047] I mean, like, we're heading back to New York and then, like, if for some reason we wind up having to be in L .A., we'll always wind up in L .A. at some point, like, over the course of a year.

[1048] Hurry back.

[1049] Oh, I got a follow -up question for you before you go.

[1050] Yeah.

[1051] So on the ride home, so you guys wanted to celebrate the Emmy nominations.

[1052] And so this plan was crafted where, like, there were six COVID tests and everyone had to quarantine to allow for this outdoor dinner.

[1053] And we went.

[1054] And then.

[1055] Someone would make a speech.

[1056] And then first it was a joke.

[1057] I think Sher would be like, now, Dax, you say something.

[1058] And then I pretty much made, I don't know, seven or eight speeches at y 'all's big night.

[1059] And so on the right home, I was like, was that a hit or was that horrendous?

[1060] Like, did I provide a service or am I insufferable?

[1061] I really am on the fence about it.

[1062] You're still thinking about it.

[1063] Yeah, all right.

[1064] Like, don't freak out.

[1065] It's always on the line, man. That's what makes it funny.

[1066] Sometimes you get going and I'm like, am I going to see someone's smile fade?

[1067] That's what I really.

[1068] And I'm going to see that.

[1069] I really want to see because like you're not afraid of going right up to the line and punching it.

[1070] Oh, man. And then stepping all over it.

[1071] So I wanted everyone to know is that the few texts we've had in life is me taking screenshots of you when your dick looks great on good things.

[1072] And I send them to you and I'm thrilled.

[1073] And I go, you lucky son.

[1074] Look at how great this shot is.

[1075] And then I think in one of my 25 speeches, I mentioned that.

[1076] And then I got super self -conscious about it.

[1077] And then I came out to check it with you.

[1078] I'm like, am I like me towing you?

[1079] Are we good with me talking about this?

[1080] No, no, no. This is what it is to hang around you, Dax.

[1081] And it is one of the things that I love is it like, there is a line and you are going to fucking walk up to it and dust it away.

[1082] And just feel like, let's get weird.

[1083] Okay.

[1084] Part of the charm.

[1085] Part of the charm.

[1086] I love it.

[1087] Okay, good, good.

[1088] I'll sleep easier tonight.

[1089] William, love you.

[1090] Can't wait to see you.

[1091] Good luck with your 35 projects.

[1092] I'm rooting for you in all ways.

[1093] Nice, man. All right.

[1094] See you, brother.

[1095] Bye.

[1096] Later.

[1097] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[1098] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1099] Hello.

[1100] Hello.

[1101] What is that remember?

[1102] Oh, I know.

[1103] What?

[1104] Hello.

[1105] My name is Elder Price.

[1106] Oh, yes.

[1107] Did you know that Jesus was born here in the USA?

[1108] Good old Josh Gad.

[1109] Good old Joshy gaddy.

[1110] It's Monday, isn't it?

[1111] It's Monday, yes.

[1112] Yeah.

[1113] And this is Monday.

[1114] Wow, this is also Monday, not the same Monday.

[1115] But a Monday nevertheless.

[1116] Yeah, and I just got my second vaccine today.

[1117] Well, just a huge day in general for you.

[1118] There were three major events today.

[1119] But mainly the second vaccine is the biggest one, because that's the most once in a lifetime.

[1120] That's true.

[1121] You probably will never receive a second vaccine for the coronavirus again.

[1122] Yeah.

[1123] The other thing was my period.

[1124] That comes, that's a dime a dozen.

[1125] Well, it's a dime a dozen, roughly.

[1126] Well, a dozen.

[1127] About a dozen a year.

[1128] Oh, yeah, that's nice.

[1129] A dime a dozen a year.

[1130] Yeah.

[1131] Yeah, so you had the arrival of your flies.

[1132] Yep.

[1133] You had, well, I only bring that one up because you're putting your body to the test today.

[1134] I was a little concerned about the arrival of the flies mixing with the second vaccine.

[1135] Uh -huh.

[1136] But so far from my vantage point, you've been energetic, happy.

[1137] My skin is glowing.

[1138] Athletic, moisturized.

[1139] Oh, my God.

[1140] Yeah.

[1141] Maybe this, I should always have the second vaccine slash flies.

[1142] You might have too active of an immune system like I do.

[1143] So maybe it was good to like the sandbag yours.

[1144] I actually think, I think it's the opposite, right?

[1145] I think if your vaccine system, your immune system is really good.

[1146] It's going to really kick into gear and you're going to not feel great.

[1147] And so far I feel fine.

[1148] Well, I was thinking if you have an overactive immune system and it's attacking your own body, you're living with some side effects of that.

[1149] In my case, sore joints.

[1150] And when there's an actual pathogen for them to attack, they lay off.

[1151] my body and I actually feel better.

[1152] You know what I'm saying?

[1153] They're distracted by the actual pathogen.

[1154] Well, your joints feel better, but other things feel bad.

[1155] I don't notice the other things.

[1156] I just noticed.

[1157] You've never felt sick.

[1158] Oh, my God, yes, I felt sick.

[1159] For sure.

[1160] That's what we're saying?

[1161] All the time.

[1162] Oh, my God, exactly.

[1163] So you're not making much sense.

[1164] You think I'm contradicting myself?

[1165] I do.

[1166] The point is, you got the vaccine.

[1167] I'm very happy and envious for you.

[1168] I'm still a couple weeks away from the second one.

[1169] I'm so happy.

[1170] But it's already made me feel so much safer.

[1171] I love how it feels just knowing that I'm 80 % inoculated.

[1172] Yeah.

[1173] And that so many people are.

[1174] The idea that herd immunity is somewhat in effect because so many people are vaccinated is wonderful.

[1175] Well, even two weeks ago, California had passed more than half of the people had been vaccinated.

[1176] And I have to imagine the numbers even higher in the city where we live.

[1177] So it is cool that like, I don't know, two out of every three people you're seen on the street.

[1178] You're like, Oh, they're vaccinated.

[1179] I'm 80 % there.

[1180] I love it.

[1181] What do you think about Johnson and Johnson?

[1182] We should weigh in.

[1183] I won't tell the exact line that you will, but I see both sides of it.

[1184] So go ahead.

[1185] What's your, I know what you're going to say.

[1186] What?

[1187] I imagine you're going to say it's less than one in a million people who had a side effect, which is super relevant.

[1188] And your odds of dying of corona if you get the virus are drastically higher than one in a million.

[1189] So it's stupid to even prioritize one over the other.

[1190] I think all the vaccines that we've ever taken, ever have, and not even vaccines, birth control, any medicine you take has a chance that you're going to experience a side effect, I mean, especially birth control, like strokes.

[1191] I heard that was one in 10 ,000 people can get clots.

[1192] Yeah, I don't know the exact number, but that sounds right.

[1193] And, like, people are taking birth control every day and not thinking twice about it.

[1194] Yep, yep.

[1195] And we, you know, including me. I guess the only part that I was going to say that might be provocative from your point of view would be that I'm glad they paused it, even though I think it's stupid they paused it, just because you can't give these anti -vaxxers even a micron of reason to further doubt the integrity of the medical system.

[1196] I agree, actually.

[1197] I think it's fine that they paused it just to be extra, extra sure.

[1198] I think that's fine.

[1199] I mean, I think it's a bummer.

[1200] because it's slowing down a bunch of stuff, but I also get it.

[1201] Well, more people will die than they will have prevented from getting these blood clots.

[1202] Yeah.

[1203] But then we just interviewed, and this was number three on your big Monday, was Danny Kahneman.

[1204] Actually, that takes precedent.

[1205] That's probably more once in a lifetime than the second vaccine.

[1206] Most certainly.

[1207] Wow.

[1208] Yeah.

[1209] So we idolize him, as does everybody in the social sciences.

[1210] He's just a legend.

[1211] He's up there with Freud as far as people that'll go down in history.

[1212] In the psychology world, for sure.

[1213] And when we were talking to him, we kind of got into my frustration with how we value unexpected death so differently, depending on what the cause of it is.

[1214] Yeah.

[1215] And I'm kind of of a nuts and bolts like, if you're dead, your dad, they're all equally sucked.

[1216] You know, your family is all in pain and missing you equally regardless of how you die.

[1217] But one of the things he pointed out, or one of the explanations for why it's so weighted is when people feel responsible for the decision, it gets.

[1218] It's so much heavier in their mind.

[1219] So if they were to contract COVID, they don't feel responsible for that.

[1220] But if they make a decision to get a vaccine and then they get sick, they somehow feel like they've got to live with the guilt of having made that decision.

[1221] I thought that was fascinating.

[1222] Me too.

[1223] And the intentional element is very important to our brains.

[1224] Right.

[1225] Like heart disease isn't intentional, but terrorism is.

[1226] Yeah.

[1227] So interesting.

[1228] Yeah.

[1229] Because look out for that episode.

[1230] It's a good one.

[1231] Yeah.

[1232] No one likes it.

[1233] I've said this several times, this point of view on here, and I always hear about it comments.

[1234] People don't like that.

[1235] I don't think it's different how you die.

[1236] There's a few things that I'm on the losing end of it.

[1237] Yeah, but I think because that's very logical.

[1238] Too logical.

[1239] But it's probably, I mean, not to take you down in peg, but it's probably not how you would act in life.

[1240] If I was murdered versus if I got cancer, you would have a much different reaction.

[1241] It's easy to say from a logical, standpoint that it's the same, because it is, but...

[1242] I am against the death penalty.

[1243] I am.

[1244] And yes, if someone raped and murdered my child, I'd want them to be put to death.

[1245] So I don't think that things make it mutually exclusive.

[1246] Like, I know logically with a clear head and not motivated by strong emotions, that killing someone to prove killing is wrong is innately wrong.

[1247] It doesn't add up.

[1248] And we error in it all the time.

[1249] time.

[1250] So that's another reason I'm against it.

[1251] So I can both be against the death penalty and also admit that if someone did that to my child, I would want the death penalty.

[1252] That doesn't feel terribly contradictory to me. Well, it is.

[1253] It's saying I know logically this is the case, yet I would act illogically.

[1254] Right.

[1255] So that's not, so that's what everyone is acting.

[1256] They're acting illogically in the same way you would.

[1257] Right.

[1258] But I would say that what I'm saying, what I'm trying to distinguish is they're all equal.

[1259] I'm not saying I'm excluded from that emotional state, but I'm saying if the goal of society is to prevent deaths, then they should focus on the number one killers.

[1260] And it would be heart disease and cancer and all these stuff.

[1261] And it is illogical and stupid of us to focus one third of our resources on terrorism.

[1262] Yeah.

[1263] Now, would I be more pissed if you died from a terrorist than cancer?

[1264] Absolutely.

[1265] But I still agree that.

[1266] that it is illogical of us.

[1267] Yeah, yeah.

[1268] But I think a lot of people will fight back and say it's not illogical when I say that.

[1269] So, yeah, I'm participating in this mental construct, I think, is ridiculous.

[1270] Okay, yeah.

[1271] I mean, I don't really know what they're saying is not.

[1272] Well, they'll say there's an actual difference.

[1273] No, there is a difference.

[1274] Oh, no, there's not.

[1275] There's not.

[1276] A death is a death.

[1277] No, I've even had people say, that's disrespectful to someone who's had someone murder.

[1278] I'm like, no, I'm not disrespecting anybody.

[1279] Well, one seems preventable and the other one doesn't.

[1280] And that's where this all comes into play.

[1281] But the crazy thing is, like, heart disease is preventable.

[1282] Way more preventable than terrorism.

[1283] And we're not thinking of it in that way.

[1284] It would be great if we could start.

[1285] Yeah, but we have these hiccups in our logic.

[1286] We do.

[1287] And that's one of them.

[1288] It is.

[1289] I will.

[1290] William.

[1291] Oh, William Jackson.

[1292] This was fun.

[1293] It was.

[1294] And, you know, occasionally on this show, we'll have someone on that we're friends with and then we'll learn something in the interview we didn't know.

[1295] I guess I would have never thought to ask if he had a parent that died or anything.

[1296] But all that was news to me, and it was the most touching story that I didn't even know about my friend.

[1297] I hate to say ding, ding, ding, ding right now.

[1298] That's okay.

[1299] But I'm going to...

[1300] A ding ding ding ding ding.

[1301] You can't get around it.

[1302] Well, it is a ding thing.

[1303] Oh, his father died of cancer.

[1304] And he wasn't murdered.

[1305] Yeah.

[1306] So do you think he's more at peace?

[1307] I mean, yeah, this is a good...

[1308] He's probably more at peace.

[1309] that doesn't mean he's happier.

[1310] Correct.

[1311] Like he's probably equally as sad, missing his parent.

[1312] And whatever struggle was imposed on him through losing a parent at a young age would have happened regardless of how...

[1313] It happened.

[1314] Father died, yeah.

[1315] Yeah.

[1316] But if he was murdered, he probably would feel less at peace with...

[1317] I mean, there's another way to look at this, too, which is you could argue it's even more ethical and moral to prefer your loved one got murdered, hold on, then die of a horrific disease.

[1318] I'm not saying that was his experience, but there are experiences that the death is horrific.

[1319] It's painful.

[1320] It's agonizing.

[1321] It takes too long.

[1322] We don't have euthanasia here in most states.

[1323] You could argue a more, if you were picking, like, do I want my loved one to die slowly, miserably, over the next four years was shut in from a, neurological disease or get shot in the back of the head, if you pick the neurological thing, that's a little selfish.

[1324] Ooh, that was, that's tasty.

[1325] I don't know.

[1326] Depends because does the person have unfinished business or want to have conversations with people they love?

[1327] Yeah, like you're taking that off the table when you're just shooting someone in the back of the head.

[1328] I mean, you would prefer to have had that time with your dad.

[1329] bad, then for him to have gotten shot in the head.

[1330] Big time, big time.

[1331] Like, you can really mend some stuff in the end of life, if you want.

[1332] I agree.

[1333] But I will say something that is provocative and people will be judgmental of.

[1334] I'm glad he died in three months.

[1335] Yeah.

[1336] I'm glad he wasn't like he never, it never got gnarly.

[1337] It's like it was what it was.

[1338] And then the last two weeks was just like this crazy nose dive.

[1339] stop talking, stop eating, and versus Barton, my stepdad, who was in the state of discomfort for months, and couldn't get comfortable in a bed, you know, horrendous side effects of all the stuff and wanted to die.

[1340] Yeah, exactly.

[1341] That was so hard to watch.

[1342] So you got time, there was more time with Barton, but a lot of it was just watching someone in complete agony.

[1343] Yeah.

[1344] That's not my preference.

[1345] Yeah.

[1346] I think you have to, you almost have to, to see that to really understand it because even my grandfather's so old and just deteriorating and his, you know, his dementia and you just see this person who's not the person anymore and doesn't even want to be there.

[1347] And it's just, I mean, I think I used to prioritize longevity over anything.

[1348] So just have them be alive.

[1349] But now, having seen it, I do start to feel like, oh, it's not.

[1350] There's other things.

[1351] There's other things.

[1352] It's really hard.

[1353] And a ding, ding, ding.

[1354] I had a horrible, but it wasn't really horrible.

[1355] I had a dream last night where he was normal.

[1356] He was like young, young.

[1357] And he was talking to me. He was dying.

[1358] Like he was about to die.

[1359] And he like came and was himself again and couldn't say like, by to me and stuff.

[1360] And it was so, so sad and felt so real.

[1361] And I was like, what if I might wake up and he might be dead?

[1362] Yeah.

[1363] I have so many dreams about my dad.

[1364] It's crazy.

[1365] I would not have guessed that this would be the outcome for me. My brother told me he doesn't have dreams about him and he wish he did.

[1366] I have dreams about him two or three nights a week.

[1367] To the point where recently I was like, is he communicating with me?

[1368] Like, I really had the thought of why is he in my dream so much?

[1369] And in the dreams, it's one of two things.

[1370] Either he's like completely robust the way he was, because even before he had the, you know, he had heart disease for 10 years, he had all kinds of medical conditions.

[1371] He had also had some major head traumas from car accidents.

[1372] So he, he like, he was on a decline for the last 10 years.

[1373] But I have these dreams where I remember what he was like at 48.

[1374] where he was like a beast.

[1375] And it's so shocking in my dream and I love it.

[1376] And then I have these other dreams.

[1377] I think these are guilt dreams where he's still hanging on.

[1378] And I'm like, oh, my God, I thought he died.

[1379] Like I wrote him off.

[1380] I guess I walked away too soon.

[1381] He's still around?

[1382] I don't know what the message is.

[1383] Yeah.

[1384] He might be contacting me. Maybe.

[1385] I'm not ruling that out.

[1386] I was hoping that my grandfather was contacting me. somehow.

[1387] That would be cool.

[1388] I felt like there were things I got to say that I can't say anymore.

[1389] And now like when I see him, it's like it's scary a little bit.

[1390] Like I don't really want to talk and then I feel guilty.

[1391] Like, ugh, it's just.

[1392] I had this with my grandma Yolus.

[1393] Yeah.

[1394] And I regret, mind you, I was very young.

[1395] I was like 18, 17, 18.

[1396] She had Alzheimer's so bad that she did not recognize me at all.

[1397] She was often scared whenever we were all together because she could tell we recognized her and not by and she had been so brilliant and i i just couldn't do it i i miss like the last i didn't visit her i feel bad about it but yeah i couldn't at that age i just i didn't do it i could have i didn't it's hard it's hard and it's hard to just like be there and he's just sitting there like a shell aging is really sad at the risk of this sounding like a brag i do think it's interesting to think about when you have a loved one who's like hanging on but you're not sure why i think trying to figure that out is interesting and with barton i was up there i think you know this story and my mom left the room for a few hours to like go take a nap or run some errands or something and he was like looking at the window they have this yard he does all the maintenance all all that kind of stuff.

[1398] And I said, you know, Barton, when you're gone, I'm going to take care of all this, right?

[1399] You do not have to worry.

[1400] Like, I will take care of everything.

[1401] She'll be fine.

[1402] I will hire people to mow the grass.

[1403] Like, everything you do, I take on.

[1404] Yeah.

[1405] And he said, thank you.

[1406] And then the next day is when he said, I'm ready to go.

[1407] Yeah.

[1408] I'm not saying that that was the thing he was waiting for, but I just put myself in his shoes of like, fuck, I got to, I swore to take care of this lady.

[1409] Yeah.

[1410] Yeah.

[1411] I guess it's important to have.

[1412] I mean, this is kind of like when we had a tool on.

[1413] Good to have these conversations when you can.

[1414] Like now it's too late.

[1415] It's too late to have these conversations with my grandfather.

[1416] And you just got to be making your own what you think is the right choice, which is probably not the right choice because you're coming at it from this protective standpoint.

[1417] I don't know.

[1418] Yeah.

[1419] Yeah.

[1420] As asking the person, what do you want to do before you die?

[1421] Yeah.

[1422] Is interesting.

[1423] As opposed to how do you want to fight this cancer and how long do you want to?

[1424] to live.

[1425] Well, I'm really sad for William, but he lost his dad so young.

[1426] He turned out so good.

[1427] So good.

[1428] Yeah.

[1429] He's a good, good person.

[1430] Okay.

[1431] So is Deacon Blues about Wake Forest Basketball team?

[1432] Call me Deacon Blues.

[1433] They got a name for the winners in the world.

[1434] Okay.

[1435] I'm going to read this.

[1436] This is an article.

[1437] This is with Walter Becker and Donald Fagan.

[1438] This is Fagan.

[1439] Walter and I wrote Deakin Blues in Malibu when we lived out there.

[1440] Walter would come over to my place and we'd sit at the piano.

[1441] I had an idea for a chorus.

[1442] If a college football team like the University of Alabama could have had a grandiose name like the Crimson Tide, the nerds and losers should be entitled to a grandiose name as well.

[1443] Then Becker.

[1444] Donald had a house that sat on top of the sand dune with a small room with the piano.

[1445] From the window, you could see the Pacific in between the other houses.

[1446] Crimson Tide didn't mean anything to us except the exaggerated grandiosity that's bestowed on winners.

[1447] Deacon Blues was the equivalent for a loser in our song.

[1448] Fagan.

[1449] When Walter came over, we started on the music, then started filling in more lyrics to fit the story.

[1450] At that time, there had been a lineman with the Los Angeles Rams and the San Diego Chargers Deacon Jones.

[1451] We weren't serious football fans, but Deacon Jones' name was in the news a lot in the 1960s and 1970s, and we liked how it sounded.

[1452] It also had two syllables, which was convenient like Crimson.

[1453] The name had nothing to do with Wake Forest's demon in Deacons or any other team with a losing record.

[1454] The only deacon I was familiar with in football at the time was Deacon Jones.

[1455] Okay, so you just busted that myth.

[1456] I did.

[1457] I busted it.

[1458] Mythbuster.

[1459] Oh, my God.

[1460] Oh, my God, you're a myth.

[1461] I didn't even know that was the end.

[1462] Oh, wow.

[1463] You're learning it real time.

[1464] Yeah.

[1465] Oh, exciting.

[1466] Okay.

[1467] Was it Jerry Krauss who owned the Bulls?

[1468] It was Jerry Reinsdorf.

[1469] He was the owner, but Jerry Kraus was the general manager.

[1470] Oh, right.

[1471] The little gentleman.

[1472] And Phil Jackson.

[1473] Oh, Bill.

[1474] What a guy.

[1475] Okay, the Gardens and Villa song that you love.

[1476] Oh, yeah.

[1477] So it's called Orange Blossom.

[1478] Yeah, I like it.

[1479] Little girl just one more time.

[1480] I love it.

[1481] Below the Blossom Vine.

[1482] Oh.

[1483] So that's that.

[1484] Little musical interlude.

[1485] What a jam.

[1486] Thank you, William, for introducing me to that.

[1487] Yeah.

[1488] And Ted.

[1489] Papa Ted.

[1490] Okay, and I just wrote.

[1491] I said in the intro, but we broke up, Jeff Rosenberg.

[1492] I didn't put two and two together when William was talking about it in the episode.

[1493] I'm very sad about that.

[1494] Oh, regretful.

[1495] Yes, I wish we had talked about how awesome Rosie is.

[1496] And that is just a really cool story.

[1497] It is.

[1498] It's almost as cool as a babysitter becoming a number one podcast host.

[1499] It's almost as cool as he.

[1500] But this movie's like, he cast it with amazing.

[1501] Amazing people.

[1502] It's so, it's just awesome.

[1503] I'm proud of him.

[1504] Jeff Rosenberg.

[1505] Well done.

[1506] Rosie, well done.

[1507] The pizza place in Atlanta is not going to be mentioned because I want to do a different shout out to a different pizza place.

[1508] Cameron's pizza place.

[1509] It's called Amazza.

[1510] Oh, is it incredible.

[1511] And that's our friend Cameron's restaurant in Atlanta.

[1512] And his brother.

[1513] In his brother.

[1514] Yeah.

[1515] Amazza.

[1516] M -A -Z -A.

[1517] It's on Edgewood Avenue, and it is fucking good.

[1518] Insanely good.

[1519] I think Cameron still owns part of it because on Instagram the other day, he did like a, there's like some Atlanta pizza picking.

[1520] Oh, really?

[1521] Yeah.

[1522] Oh, good.

[1523] So, anyway, please go there.

[1524] It's so good.

[1525] You know, there's this moment where, like, we were in Atlanta, and he said, you should go to my brother and I's pizza place.

[1526] And of course we're going to go.

[1527] Of course.

[1528] And then, of course, me, because I'm codependent.

[1529] I start getting filled with anxiety of like, what if it's terrible?

[1530] What am I going to tell him?

[1531] And I get there and I'm like, wow, it's super cool looking.

[1532] That's a great start.

[1533] And then I ate there.

[1534] And then it was insanely good.

[1535] And then I switched gears to when I was telling him how much I loved it.

[1536] I thought, oh, God.

[1537] Now he's probably thinks I'm just saying this because I know him.

[1538] Like, there was never peace in the whole process.

[1539] Oh, my God.

[1540] It's so good, though.

[1541] Oh, my God.

[1542] My Lord.

[1543] All right.

[1544] That's it.

[1545] All right.

[1546] I love you.

[1547] Love you.

[1548] Happy pizza.

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