John Legend

[0] Welcome, welcome open to armchair expert.

[1] I'm John Shepard.

[2] I'm joined by Monica Padman.

[3] Hello.

[4] Hello from Sedona, Arizona.

[5] We're in Sedona, Arizona, the vortex.

[6] They're real, motherfuckers.

[7] The energy vortexes are real.

[8] We laid in the middle of the street, in the middle of the night.

[9] Not what I would recommend doing, but we did it, and it was unbelievable.

[10] Middle of the desert, though, let me add.

[11] Middle of the night, the stars were banging.

[12] You could see Jupiter.

[13] You could see Saturn.

[14] And Mars was.

[15] saw at the end of the night, and also the Milky Way was on full display.

[16] It's been incredible.

[17] Really incredible.

[18] We are so excited today to break an upcoming artist.

[19] This person is so talented, you've never heard of them, and we are so honored to introduce America to this young chap named John Legend.

[20] John's legend.

[21] John's legend.

[22] Yep, correct.

[23] So John Legend, although you're just now hearing him for the first time, he is an egot, which we will talk about in length, which means he is won an Emmy, a Grammy, an Oscar, and a Tony.

[24] And he's the only black male to have ever become an egot.

[25] He's the youngest egot.

[26] He's one of only 15 egotts, I believe.

[27] I'll probably say he's the sexiest.

[28] He's fucking definitely the sexiest.

[29] I fell in love with him on Get Lifted, 2004, and of course, once again, 2006.

[30] And he said just a ton of great music ever since then.

[31] He has a new album that is phenomenal.

[32] After the interview, I downloaded it, and I can't stop listening to it.

[33] It's called Bigger Love.

[34] Bigger Love is out now, and you should definitely add.

[35] it to your cue.

[36] So please enjoy John Legend.

[37] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and add free right now.

[38] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[39] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[40] He's an armchair expert.

[41] He's an upshire expert.

[42] First and foremost, what a handsome son of a gun you are.

[43] Just take, Monica, take it in.

[44] I know, it's too much.

[45] Take it in.

[46] No, the proportions, the symmetry.

[47] It's a good haircut.

[48] I'll give you that.

[49] It's hard to have a good haircut in quarantine.

[50] It's hard to do.

[51] Well, my brother's my barber, and I'm his only client.

[52] So I did the whole quarantine look for the first couple months.

[53] And then once tests became more available in L .A., I asked my brother to go get a test.

[54] and I know he doesn't have any other clients because he usually is on the road with me and stuff.

[55] So I was like, of course, you can't see anybody else, but he's on retainer.

[56] What's his name?

[57] My brother's Ron.

[58] Ron?

[59] Yes.

[60] He's been cutting my hair, so I've been looking fresh.

[61] Did he recognize like a niche, or was he already a barber?

[62] And you were like, let's get on the road together.

[63] Or did he go, John's going to need a barber, and I want to travel.

[64] You know, he was our neighborhood barber when we were growing up.

[65] When we were in high school, all of our friends who were on the football team or a basketball team or went to school with us, they would all call my brother.

[66] His nickname is Bumper.

[67] And they were like, Bump, we need a haircut.

[68] And they would call him.

[69] And as soon as I started traveling on the road, he started traveling with me. And he's been, you know, my personal barber ever since.

[70] Well, it's just a seamless fade as I take it in right now.

[71] Yes, he's got skills.

[72] So when I was reading about you, or both Midwesterners, right?

[73] You're an Ohio boy?

[74] Yes, I'm from Springfield, Ohio.

[75] You're one of four, and then I was seeing that mom and dad both musical, right?

[76] Dad played the drums.

[77] Mom sang and kind of ran the church choir.

[78] Yes.

[79] Grandma played the organ.

[80] Yes.

[81] Okay, now my family wasn't doing that stuff, but I was in a Baptist church every other Sunday when I'd visit my grandparents.

[82] I was thinking when I was learning this about you, how many R &B artists started?

[83] in the church.

[84] Oh, a huge percentage.

[85] It's huge, right?

[86] Yeah, because it's so formative for your musical upbringing, and it's so musical.

[87] And if you think about all the other places in your life for a lot of kids where music's been taken away, you look at the schools and other places where people just don't have access to as much music as they used to, the church is one of those places where you can still be exposed to a lot of music.

[88] And music, particularly in the black church is so central to the experience that R &B singers are always going to come from there.

[89] All of my band members grew up playing in church.

[90] So it's very much like a finishing school for musicians.

[91] You don't even have to go to school.

[92] If you've played in church for most of your youth, you're ready to go out there and play.

[93] Well, one thing is I kind of started panicking because I'm an atheist obnoxiously outspoken about it.

[94] And I thought, oh, I got to be careful because we could lose if there's no church where this incredible breeding ground for all this great R &B comes from.

[95] Yeah.

[96] And I'm not religious anymore, but I grew up in it.

[97] And I couldn't imagine me being a musician without having that upbringing.

[98] And so, yeah, like, if I'm not taking my daughter to church, I'm like, will she even be able to learn music?

[99] Yeah, thousand percent.

[100] We got to like encourage another option, at least, for those that are being raised by hedonistic, secularist monsters like us.

[101] The other thing I was fascinated in is, Monica, now this is the part where you're going to really, really get thrilled.

[102] So John was homeschooled, yes, up till high school.

[103] Yes.

[104] He had skipped a grade or two in that process.

[105] Okay, I like that.

[106] Which is, that begs the question, like, mom's just deciding that?

[107] Like, no, he's in fifth grade.

[108] How does one move up in homeschooling?

[109] Well, you don't really do it in homeschooling, but whenever you go back to the general population and your mom is like, he's too smart for this grade.

[110] And then they have you take a test.

[111] So let me tell you the order of how it happened.

[112] I was basically homeschooled through kindergarten.

[113] And then by the time I was supposed to go to first grade, my mom was ready to put me into this Christian school in our hometown called Springfield Christian School.

[114] and she took me to the school and said, my son's too smart for first grade.

[115] So she had them give me a test to see what grade levels I should be at.

[116] And I tested like third and fourth grade level for a lot of the stuff that I was tested on.

[117] But of course, they were going to put me in third or fourth grade at the age of like seven.

[118] So they put me in second grade when I was the age of my first grade peers.

[119] And then after two years at the Christian school, We couldn't afford it.

[120] So they brought me back home.

[121] So fourth, fifth, and sixth grade, I was at home.

[122] And then my parents got divorced.

[123] And so that kind of fucked up our homeschool situation.

[124] And they took me to our local public middle school.

[125] And I was, you know, theoretically supposed to go to seventh grade at that point.

[126] Seventh grade would have been a year ahead.

[127] But then they had me tested again.

[128] And they put me in eighth grade.

[129] Oh, my God.

[130] You're like a lab experiment.

[131] Let's test him again.

[132] Where's he at?

[133] And so I start eighth grade at the age of 11.

[134] I start high school at age of college.

[135] No, no, no. This is a terrible idea.

[136] Can I say this?

[137] It's not a great idea.

[138] It's a terrible idea.

[139] It is cutthroat at that age.

[140] You can't be around 14 -year -old boys when you're 11.

[141] Exactly.

[142] I agree.

[143] I agree.

[144] So I turned out fine, but I definitely think it was a challenge.

[145] And I wouldn't want to put my kid through that.

[146] Yeah.

[147] Did you get fucked with by the older boy?

[148] You know, they used to call me Doogie, and that was my nickname.

[149] That was my nickname.

[150] The one good thing about it was my older brother, Ron, was with me, and we were in the same grade at that point.

[151] Oh, wow.

[152] Was Ron embarrassed?

[153] No, he was cool.

[154] He was actually, you know, he could have been a lot worse about it, because you could see him being more jealous and, like, upset that his brother caught up with him in grades, and he's two years younger.

[155] But he was like, I'm in the right grade.

[156] John's just like ridiculously, ridiculously smart.

[157] So my brother was always there with me and he took care of me and made sure nobody messed with me. So I was good.

[158] He's always been protective.

[159] And what's crazy about me and my brother, you know, there's four of us total, but me and my older brother were always been close.

[160] And literally the day I was born, we were in the newspaper together because, you know, they have normal birth announcements, but the newspaper did a story on the fact that my brother was the first, sibling that was allowed to come to the hospital to, they had a new program at the hospital where the sibling could be there.

[161] Oh.

[162] When the baby was born and they had this new thing.

[163] And so they took a picture of my brother and me at the hospital together.

[164] So we've been together through everything and starting with the first day when I was born.

[165] That's crazy.

[166] So clearly mom thought you were God's gift to planet earth.

[167] And my mom thought I was God's gift to planet earth.

[168] Which is a double -edged sword.

[169] One aspect is, like, God bless that woman.

[170] She made me think I could do anything.

[171] And the weight of that was a little cumbersome.

[172] It's definitely a certain amount of pressure, and especially when your parents get divorced, because you feel like you have to hold everybody together.

[173] And I think I'm always kind of like the mediator between any argument of any group of friends that I'm a part of because I was a middle child.

[174] My parents got divorced, and I was always like the star kid.

[175] So I always felt like I had to be there to, like, fix all the problems and make sure everything was okay.

[176] Did music play a role in that?

[177] Well, music was like an escape for me. And music had another function for me because being this, you know, nerdy, 12 -year -old going to high school, the one thing that made me super cool was that I could sing.

[178] And if I didn't have that, like, my high school years probably had been very painful.

[179] But I think music was the thing.

[180] that made me connect to other people, it made me come out of my shell socially.

[181] It made me be able to talk to girls when I otherwise would have had no game.

[182] Yeah.

[183] Older girls, older women.

[184] Yeah.

[185] You know, I think music was that thing for me that just helped me navigate a lot of social circumstances where otherwise ought to have been hopeless.

[186] Yeah.

[187] How did you get girls?

[188] I mean, that's a huge age gap.

[189] I didn't at first.

[190] It didn't start getting good until, like, my junior year.

[191] Okay.

[192] It took a while.

[193] People had to get to know me. I had to get a little older.

[194] Go through pre -Birdy, you know.

[195] Girls like talent.

[196] But you've got to be really talented to be two years younger than the girl is.

[197] Most girls in high school want a guy older than them.

[198] Yes.

[199] A guy their age is like the minimum.

[200] A thousand percent.

[201] A guy two years younger is like, what the hell?

[202] Get away.

[203] No, that's a non -starter for, I think, lot of gales.

[204] Okay, so you did grade in high school and then you got into Harvard and you got a scholarship to Georgetown.

[205] Yet you chose to go to University of Pennsylvania.

[206] Why was that?

[207] Well, it's also an Ivy League school and very highly regarded.

[208] So it was no chopped liver.

[209] Yeah, you didn't slum it or anything.

[210] But they also gave me a better scholarship offer than Harvard and we needed every cent we could get.

[211] And Philadelphia was a little closer because I was driving and back and forth from school.

[212] So it just felt like it made more sense financially for us and just lifestyle -wise.

[213] And it ended up being way better for me musically because I end up in Philadelphia.

[214] And anybody who knows anything about what was going on in Philadelphia at that moment, this is in the mid to late 90s.

[215] Everything, you know, we call neo -s soul or soulful hip -hop, so much of it was happening in Philadelphia at that moment.

[216] So the roots were there.

[217] they were doing these open mics.

[218] You know, Erica Badu would come to town.

[219] DeAngelo would come to town.

[220] Common would come to town.

[221] And then all these homegrown talents like Jill Scott and Bilal and the roots and music soul child.

[222] Don't you dare leave out Hall and Oates?

[223] Hall and Outs, gamble and huff, of course, from Philadelphia, Teddy Pendergrass.

[224] So so much music has come from Philly.

[225] There's a whole thing called The Sound of Philadelphia, and there's a studio we used to record at called Sigma.

[226] And all of those elements of being in Philadelphia, were really important to my musical career, and I don't think I would have had anything like that in Boston.

[227] So picking pin over Harvard was a good choice for me to become the musician that I am as well.

[228] Yes, although you could have invented Facebook.

[229] We just don't know.

[230] We simply do.

[231] I can be interviewing you for a whole different reason.

[232] Yes.

[233] Now, you met Lauren Hill while you were in college.

[234] Yes.

[235] So I was during the day, of course, I was going to school, but on the weekends, I was playing at a, the church in Scranton, Pennsylvania.

[236] Scranton is now famous for being the fictional home of the office, of course.

[237] Oh, yes.

[238] Joe Biden's from there as well.

[239] But at the time, I would just go up there every weekend and play for this church.

[240] And that was how I helped pay my bills in school.

[241] I got a little salary from the church and would lead the choir there and play the piano there.

[242] And one of the choir members was a woman named Tara Michelle.

[243] And she had grown up in North Jersey in the same area that.

[244] Lauren Hill grew up and she was like, my friend Lauren's working on her album.

[245] Do you want to go to the studio and check it out?

[246] I want her to meet you.

[247] And Lauren had already had huge success with the score, with the Fugees, and everyone was anticipating her going solo.

[248] And so I'm like, yeah, of course I'll go.

[249] And so I go to visit the studio, Lauren's working on a song with a few musicians and producers with her.

[250] And during one of their break, My friend Tara was like, Lauren, you got to hear my friend Johnny play the piano and sing.

[251] Oh, my gosh.

[252] Does that make you terrified or are you like, let's do it?

[253] I was ready.

[254] I was like, let me sit down and, you know, I'm going to do this.

[255] And so I sat down and played her a Stevie Wonder song and an original song of mine.

[256] And she was like, why don't you work on this song that we're doing right now?

[257] So I played piano on Everything is Everything, Track 13 on the Miss Education, Lauren Hill.

[258] Wow.

[259] What a story.

[260] This was like my claim of fame.

[261] And by the way, I auditioned for her touring band, so I would have dropped out of school if she would have hired me for the touring band, but she didn't.

[262] So I got my degree.

[263] Went back to senior year of school, and my whole claim to fame was, I'm on track 13 of the album that everyone's listening to at school.

[264] So it's pretty cool.

[265] That is great.

[266] And it kind of becomes a theme in your life.

[267] Over the years, you get introduced to people at different times, and you fit in.

[268] I wonder if you're aware of your strategy or how you approach things, because I was thinking you end up meeting Kanye, which becomes pivotal as well.

[269] I would have probably been trying to big dog it or something.

[270] I would have fucked that up.

[271] Like, I would have fucked the Lauren thing.

[272] Lauren Hill, I would have been like, I'm going to try to make love to her.

[273] That would have been my focus.

[274] Her husband was right there.

[275] I would have fucked the whole thing up.

[276] Are you just deferential to people when you meet them?

[277] Are you slow -played?

[278] Do you come in kind of calm?

[279] What's your angle?

[280] I am a good collaborator, and I think I start out with humility when I end up.

[281] enter into a collaborative situation.

[282] Obviously, now when I'm writing with co -writers, usually they're more junior than me, they're excited that they get to write with me. Yeah.

[283] But I still approach it with humility.

[284] I go in there thinking, you know, they may have a better idea than I might have.

[285] Let's work together and see what we're going to come up with together.

[286] So I approached the Lauren Hill situation like that.

[287] When I worked with Kanye, we were both kind of at a similar place in our lives.

[288] So it wasn't like he was way up here and I was down here.

[289] He was an up -and -coming producer and I was an up -and -coming artist.

[290] And I didn't even know he was trying to rap too, but soon I found that out.

[291] And we were both trying to get a record deal.

[292] We were just, you know, we figured we could help each other out.

[293] And I met him through my college roommate, a guy named Devon Harris, and Devon and Kanye are cousins.

[294] So my college roommate, we were living together in New York as well.

[295] and he was like, you know, my cousin just moved here.

[296] He's working with Jay -Z on the song, and he was on the blueprint, which was about to come out.

[297] It hadn't come out yet.

[298] And he was, you know, on the cusp of becoming a really sought -after producer, but not yet.

[299] And so he was like, you guys should write together.

[300] And so we started writing together.

[301] You know what's great about that approach is unlike a job, let's say, you're a surgeon, right?

[302] Or you're a engineer.

[303] doesn't actually require inspiration.

[304] But when you're an artist, inspiration's like, I don't know what percentage is of it, right?

[305] But you've got your skill.

[306] Yeah, you got your skill set, but that doesn't mean shit.

[307] You might have a Ferrari, but the inspiration's the gas, it could sit there, right?

[308] So collaboration, this young person might provide that or you might provide that, yeah.

[309] Exactly.

[310] And that's why I think you have to be a really generous and open collaborator when you're, working on art because the idea can come from anybody and you try to keep interesting like cool collaborators around you and be open that they may have a better idea than you may have and that you together is better than either of you separately.

[311] Yeah.

[312] It's also worth saying though that you it seems so far have a pattern of just saying yes.

[313] Well I was going to say that too like come meet my cousin who just moved here from Chicago who's going to be here.

[314] I'd be like I don't know man I'd rather go eat.

[315] Yeah, let's go to the meal hall.

[316] Yeah, like, I feel like most people would be like, sure, sure, sure, and then not follow up.

[317] But this is the result of following up or saying yes, taking sense.

[318] And that's one of the things I always tell my managers when it comes to, like, them booking sessions with me with writers.

[319] I'm like, there's almost no one I won't write with as long as, you know, they're at a certain, you know, of course there's a minimum.

[320] Can I can write with me anytime soon?

[321] You want them to, you know, have a couple of credits or whatever.

[322] But I usually just say yes because who knows?

[323] Like, I truly don't know what's going to happen in that room.

[324] And sometimes they may not even give me that many ideas, but just one little seed thing that they give me spurs me to write the whole rest of the song.

[325] And it works.

[326] We have to be open to ideas.

[327] And I think saying no a lot just means you're just sealing off inspiration.

[328] Yeah.

[329] Yeah.

[330] Okay, so you graduate from Penn. Here's another similarity.

[331] I don't want to brag, but he's Magna Coulade from Penn. Isn't that incredible?

[332] It's really incredible.

[333] I am Suma, but we can pass by that.

[334] But not quite as good of a school as you and I went to.

[335] But if you neutralize it all, it's about the same.

[336] Oh, wow.

[337] Yeah, if you deduct a little bit.

[338] We have a lot of lights over there.

[339] Who's counting at this point?

[340] Everyone's doing great.

[341] You graduate.

[342] That's impressive.

[343] Your majors in English and and specifically African -American literature.

[344] Yeah.

[345] And I thought, normally I wouldn't even bring that up, but I thought in this time right now that we're kind of really attempting to educate ourselves, if you have to give us three, because you would know, what's three books that people should check out that would really help understand the prospective experience?

[346] Well, it's interesting.

[347] It's interesting because when you're studying English, you do a lot of fiction.

[348] So reading Tony Morrison is like, She's one of the gods of fiction writing, and she's also from Ohio, which makes me very proud.

[349] So definitely read Tony Morrison.

[350] But I also think right now, I think it's good to read some nonfiction as well to try to understand the history and the context around the conversations that we're having now.

[351] I was just tweeting about real estate and the history of discrimination against black and brown people in real estate.

[352] So reading the color of law would be really helpful if you want to understand that issue.

[353] And, you know, some realtors were beefing with me that I called out the practice of steering and not showing black people certain properties because you don't want them in certain neighborhoods.

[354] And they felt like I was being out of pocket by saying that.

[355] Of course, I wasn't saying all of them were doing it, but it's a significant enough issue that it needs to be dealt with.

[356] And if you read the color of law and also New York News Day did a really big expose about a certain area in Long Island where they were doing that, that helps you understand part of what's happening in this country because so much of what's happening is due to years of segregation.

[357] So the idea that there are black neighborhoods, that there are ghettos, that there are hoods, the fact that that even exists in our parlance and in the way we even think about society is government policy.

[358] It was redlining.

[359] It was banks refusing to lend to certain people, and it was realtors refusing to show property in certain neighborhoods to black and brown people.

[360] And so when you look at the wealth gap that is still persistent now, most Americans' wealth is their home.

[361] And so if you're discriminated against in the home buying process, you're not able to accumulate wealth from your home, then that literally almost completely explains the wealth gap right now.

[362] And so I think it's important, if we're going to talk about these issues now, we need to understand the context of how we got there.

[363] And that's why when people talk about reparations, a lot of their talk isn't even about slavery.

[364] It's about this home value we were denied for decades because of government policy and realtors' actions and banks' actions.

[365] Yeah, I think for a lot of folks, it was just easier and more convenient for them to go like, oh, slavery ended, problem solved.

[366] Yes, yes.

[367] They really you know, through some fault of their own and some not fault of their own, they don't learn about reconstruction.

[368] They don't learn about Red Line.

[369] They don't learn about Jim Crow.

[370] They don't learn about the industrial prison complex.

[371] They don't realize how much stuff to your point.

[372] It's happening right now.

[373] It makes me immediately think of that brilliant Chris Rock joke where he's like, in his neighborhood, it's, you know, huge mansions.

[374] And in his neighborhood, Mary J. Blige lives there.

[375] And I forget what athlete.

[376] And then him.

[377] And he's like, so, Mary J. Bly is one of the best singers of all time.

[378] This guy, the best point guard of all time.

[379] Me, the best comedian of all time.

[380] My neighbor's an average dentist.

[381] A dentist.

[382] You can be average.

[383] But if you want to live in the neighborhood and be black, you better be one of the best at something.

[384] Well, a lot of white people start with a cushion.

[385] Like, their family has a nest day.

[386] They have a home.

[387] They have land.

[388] They have all these things.

[389] And I think they just think that this is a normal part of life.

[390] But that was also government policy, too.

[391] They were literally laws that gave.

[392] people free land or gave them interest -free loans and they intentionally excluded black people from it.

[393] Yeah.

[394] It was explicit.

[395] It was intentional.

[396] It wasn't just an accident of fate and bad luck.

[397] So I just want people to understand all those things when they're talking about the current situation because the current situation is steeped in all this years of history and discrimination and segregation.

[398] And it plays out in our schools.

[399] That's why our schools are segregated because of the same residential segregation.

[400] That's why the police can target certain areas because they know where all the black and brown people live because they've forced them to live in that area.

[401] And so all these things are related to each other.

[402] And so we have to understand the foundations if we're ever going to dismantle these systems that have been so oppressive.

[403] Yeah, if you don't ask the question and you're just observing present day as a human, you're just seeing the results of all this.

[404] Yeah.

[405] So you're, you're They're not seeing causality at all.

[406] That's kind of harder to track down, and people should take a minute to do that.

[407] Okay, those were three.

[408] I don't even know if I gave you three.

[409] I'd say Tony Morrison's whole body of work is great.

[410] I love the bluest eye, Song of Solomon, beloved.

[411] So that's three right there.

[412] But I say, Color of Law, I would say the New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander.

[413] I would say, Just Mercy by Brian Stevenson.

[414] These are all good books.

[415] I just was reading a book called The Chokehold as by a former prosecutor.

[416] is a black prosecutor who's come out from the other side and is basically saying we should dismantle the prison and jail system, policing system, because he's seen how they metaphorically are a chokehold on the black community.

[417] So I think that was an interesting book as well.

[418] Yeah, I was just, I happened to be like mid -state filming last week.

[419] And the town I was in was a town of one of the California state prisons.

[420] And it was enormous.

[421] And I was driving by it.

[422] And I got to say, of course, I know I think the number is something around like six million Americans are incarcerated or whatever.

[423] I'm aware of the scale of it.

[424] But I don't ever see prisons.

[425] I live in Los Angeles and I go on vacation to places that don't have prisons.

[426] So I was looking at this fucking monolith monstrosity.

[427] I mean, it hit me in a way that I'm embarrassed to say.

[428] It hit me like, so wait, that's just a cement box that we're keeping people in.

[429] We put a shitload of people in the cement box and that's that.

[430] That's our best solution still.

[431] Yeah.

[432] Yeah.

[433] Are you kidding me?

[434] It really hit me. And I was, yeah, embarrassed.

[435] I don't think about it more.

[436] And it's interesting, the physical strategy around where we put prisons because we separate them from cities.

[437] So you're distance from your family.

[438] You're distance from most of the people in the state.

[439] So they never even see it.

[440] So one of my friends uses the verb, we disappear people because they were basically out of sight and out of mind.

[441] And so you're able to go about your daily life in LA and I am too without even thinking about it.

[442] Yeah.

[443] And then these small towns, their entire economy is built around the fact that a prison is there.

[444] So they have a stake in us incarcerating as many people as possible because that means jobs.

[445] That means more for their economy.

[446] And what's interesting in a lot of states, they get those prisoners counted toward their population.

[447] Oh, so they get more federal money.

[448] So they get more representation, more federal money.

[449] Even though those prisoners often don't get a right to vote as part of that.

[450] And so it's a weird incentive structure for the smaller community, like Lancaster or whatever these towns are in California or all around the country, that house the prisons.

[451] And there's a whole economy built around it and an incentive structure to keep it in place for jobs and to support this infrastructure in this area.

[452] Meanwhile, while the state and local governments are spending tons of money on prisons and jails.

[453] Families are being destroyed.

[454] Families are being separated.

[455] And prisons aren't effective at reforming people.

[456] No, no, people get out worse.

[457] When you look at it as a system, right, as a system, we had this guy on, he said it so simply and it's so accurate.

[458] Whatever result you're currently looking at is the result of a perfectly designed system to create that result.

[459] Systems work.

[460] They work.

[461] They're working at all times.

[462] And it's not broken.

[463] It's not broken.

[464] That's the fucking result of this system.

[465] It's perfectly designed to create this outcome.

[466] And you're right.

[467] When you incentivize incarceration for a community, I'm not hating on the community that wants the money and blah, blah, but let's think of incentives that are productive and drive the narrative forward.

[468] Yeah.

[469] And like we've been talking about with the defund the police movement, all of these systems cost a lot of money and they are a choice.

[470] So whenever you spend it on one thing, you have a finite amount of tax money.

[471] money, and you have to balance a budget every year if you're a state.

[472] So anytime you're spending it on one thing, you're necessarily precluding that same money from being spent on something else.

[473] And so every time we make that choice for more policing, more jails, more prisons, it means we can't spend it on health care, we can't spend it on schools, we can't spend it on pre -K for all these young people, which is proven to reduce their likelihood to commit crime, increases their income prediction, you know, all of these positive, outcomes come from pre -K.

[474] Are we spending the money on it?

[475] No, we can't afford it.

[476] But we can afford more police.

[477] So when people are talking about defund the police, what they're saying is not that there wouldn't be zero police ever.

[478] They're saying, let's spend way less money on this so we can spend it on that.

[479] Well, prevention worth, you know, cure.

[480] Yeah, the police are the quote, cure.

[481] Yes.

[482] And it's, A, I'm sympathetic to them as well.

[483] It's too much.

[484] Also, when people here defund, they think, right, they get scared.

[485] I'm scared.

[486] Wait, no more I don't want to get mugged, blah, blah, blah.

[487] What you don't recognize is the amount of calls that they're responding to the police that are for a mental health issue, that they are not in any way trained or equipped to deal with, nor should they be asked to.

[488] Yeah.

[489] You know, you free up some money from the police department.

[490] We can actually have a response team that specializes in the mental health disorders that homeless folks are dealing with.

[491] You know, you can have people on the scene.

[492] It is now increasingly absurd that our entire emergency response system is two people, either an ambulance, fire department or someone to put handcuffs on you that's the only tool in their kit yes and and like you said before prevention let's think about all of these other things we could spend them on as ways of making the overall number of social problems go down before we even get to that point yes it helps people if they're dealing with addiction issues helps people if they're dealing with mental health issues but also helps people early on in life so they have a great start so they have hope for their future They believe they can go out and get a job and contribute to society.

[493] People don't want to be running from the law all the time.

[494] People don't want to wreak havoc on society.

[495] Most people actually just want to be happy, take care of their family, live a safe, healthy, productive life.

[496] And if we put more people in a position to do that, then we won't need as many police anyway.

[497] And so when people say they envision a future without police, what they're really saying is they envision a future where we reduce the number of societal problems down so much.

[498] that we won't need so many police.

[499] Yes, I was saying this to a buddy yesterday.

[500] I was like, okay, so the LAPD is like a $6 billion budget, I think, somewhere around there.

[501] I'm like, imagine you lob $2 billion off and you put it into the school system.

[502] And literally Los Angeles had the best school system in the world.

[503] Yeah.

[504] You really think the graduation rate's not going to change.

[505] You really think the college admissions isn't going to change.

[506] I mean, how could you think that?

[507] That wouldn't be possible.

[508] Yeah.

[509] And like you said about homelessness, like L .A. has a huge homeless.

[510] problem.

[511] So would you want to send a cop to lock these guys up and move them off the street just because you know, it doesn't look cool?

[512] No. You want to actually provide housing for them.

[513] Like, how about we find a way to help these folks?

[514] Some of them are veterans that have PTSD and have mental health issues.

[515] Yeah.

[516] How about we help them and find a place for them to live?

[517] We don't need police to do that.

[518] And let's have a pie in the sky real lofty goal.

[519] Like, let's give people purpose.

[520] Like people with purpose are fulfilled, you know, yeah.

[521] Have motivation, want to.

[522] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[523] We figured it out.

[524] We figured it out.

[525] We solved it.

[526] We fixed it.

[527] Yep, us three figured it out.

[528] Yeah.

[529] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[530] What's up, guys?

[531] This is your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season.

[532] And let me tell you, it's too good.

[533] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[534] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[535] And I don't mean just friends, I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[536] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[537] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[538] We've all been there.

[539] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[540] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing.

[541] but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[542] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[543] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[544] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[545] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[546] Follow Mr. Ballin's medical mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[547] Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon music.

[548] Okay, so that was good and that was good for our souls and our spirituality, but now I'm going to regress because I've interviewed a bunch of musicians at this point with the exception of Van Hunt.

[549] You're my God.

[550] Another Ohio.

[551] You guys are fucking thriving right now with Chappelle.

[552] I mean, you, Van Hunt.

[553] So I was so into you and Van Hunt at the exact same time.

[554] And I just want to tell you one or two, little tidbits of how you've been involved in my life.

[555] Because I know you're interested in me and you're interviewing me. I did this movie in Illinois.

[556] I drove there from L .A. And I listened to your first album, Get Lifted, The Whole Ride on repeat.

[557] And then every day I worked at Joliet Prison.

[558] and I would pull into the prison in the little dock where they look under your car and everything and then I got to talk to state prison guards, right?

[559] So I got to say eight mornings in a row I showed up and this dude was, he just wasn't super excited to see me and he didn't want to deal with these fucking actors at the prison.

[560] But on like day nine of this, I'm just inside with the windows up while they're searching under the car and I'm listening to you to get lifted.

[561] And the dude knocks on my window and I wrote down and he goes, what you know about John Legend?

[562] and I go I know every word and every verse and he goes all right man all right and then that dude and I got along so well for like the next six weeks at this prison but it was this like beautiful moment and then I also I had a romance to that album and then I was talking to my wife this morning we were both just talking about how much we loved you was this the same romance it was not you're going to like this you're going to like this so I'm telling her like oh I'm really excited I'm going to interview John Legend, she's like, and we just kind of sat there from him, like, oh, and we were remembering those first two albums.

[563] And I go, we both had love affairs, right, to that album, not with each other.

[564] And she's like, oh, yeah, I had one too.

[565] And I was like, it's the best.

[566] That's interesting.

[567] It's the best.

[568] Once again, for me, was the real love affair.

[569] PDA, I must have listened to PDA on repeat, making out, three hours.

[570] Yes.

[571] Well, see, that album, once again, was the more romantic album.

[572] The first album had a little bit of everything because it had some cheating songs.

[573] and had ordinary people, stay with you, you know, had a range.

[574] But once again, it was more like romantic.

[575] I always imagined, like, sipping wine in the south of France to once again or something like that.

[576] And so that was the vibe for the second album.

[577] And it's always interesting when I meet fans that say, once again, is their favorite album.

[578] I feel like a special connection with them because the easy answer is to say, get lifted.

[579] because, you know, it was my first album and introduced a lot of people to me and it got a lot of awards and did well and all the good stuff.

[580] But when I meet fans that love once again, it's like I feel a special bond with them.

[581] Oh, I'm still listening to.

[582] I dance with my daughters all the time to that album.

[583] I mean, I want to kiss you underneath the stars.

[584] I get chills just thinking about that.

[585] Oh, my God.

[586] Maybe we'll go too far, John.

[587] I don't know.

[588] We just don't know.

[589] Okay, so now, I have a horrendous history of cheating.

[590] Fucking deplorable.

[591] No girls like me at all in elementary school.

[592] I got to junior high.

[593] My brother gave me a different haircut.

[594] I started skateboarding.

[595] All of a sudden, all these older girls started liking me. And I couldn't ever say no. If I had a girl, any attention, any approval from a beautiful girl, I had to have it at all costs.

[596] Yeah.

[597] And there's all these great cheating songs on your album.

[598] And I was like, I see another fisherman at sea.

[599] So I'm assuming it wasn't a total character in your music.

[600] So you must have some history with cheating.

[601] And I am curious, have you thought for yourself, what is the causality of that?

[602] Well, I think, yes, I did have a history of it.

[603] Definitely in my 20s.

[604] I think what happened for me personally is you go through a lot of your life, like your teens, where when I was like the two years younger than everybody kid in high school and college.

[605] And so I just didn't get a lot of girls when I was younger.

[606] And when I started to get that attention, like, I loved it.

[607] Yeah.

[608] Part of it, I escaped technically cheating by kind of keeping my relationship ill -defined, but it was really cheating.

[609] Ill -defined.

[610] You can try to get off on technicalities.

[611] Yeah, I was going to say, Your Honor, if you read the agreement, you'll see.

[612] You'll find that I am not in breach of this contract.

[613] It depends on what the definition of is, is.

[614] And I definitely was dishonest and selfish and just enjoyed this new attention that I was getting.

[615] And it was, you know, happening before I was famous, but when I was kind of on my way, you know, I was on the road with Kanye.

[616] I was, you know, just getting more attention and more opportunities to see lots of different girls.

[617] And, you know, I took advantage of that at that time.

[618] But then at a certain point, you just realize, like, you're happier being honest.

[619] You're happier being faithful and being in love with one person.

[620] And at a certain point, I just decided that that person was Chrissy.

[621] And I just decided I wasn't going to mess with anybody else anymore.

[622] And it's so much easier.

[623] Lighter.

[624] Yeah, your whole life is lighter.

[625] Like, when you're able to be honest with the person and, like, you aren't hiding text.

[626] it's a big energy suck right yeah it really does and in you your mind is freer like everything is better so obviously people have to get to that place and they have to realize that the person they're with is the person that they're ready to do that for but once you figure that out it's so free yeah yeah and so i guess i then learned today that you had been with chrissey you've known her for a long time longer than you know when you got married and then you write that beautiful song, All of Me, you say it's about her.

[627] It was a long courtship, so it was loose and then you just kept circling back to like, no, no, this is it?

[628] Well, it was only loose for a little while.

[629] We've talked about it before, but we had sex the first night and you know, we hit it off the first night.

[630] And we were both seeing other people at the time.

[631] And so there was a kind of a looseness at the very beginning.

[632] But we fell in love not long after that.

[633] It was probably like the summer of where we were like full on like in love with each other and stop dating other people not long after that.

[634] Now I get a million tweets and Instagram messages and you, us four are generally together in these tweets like for relationship goals.

[635] Oh yeah, of course.

[636] I've seen you guys listed as relationship goals.

[637] Yeah.

[638] Like John Krasinski and Emily, I think I see a few times.

[639] Sure.

[640] There's a few couples like that.

[641] We're going to put Jay -Z and Beyonce in like a another that's a whole their royalty that's that's different now do you feel the pressure of that i feel the pressure that a little bit when there's people that look up to our relationship and i am honest about my background and i think i could blow this whole thing up that's certainly something i've done wow now the whole world's watching there's a stress about that for me i'm not stressed about i feel like it almost makes it even less likely that i would do anything to fuck it up because I'm like, Chrissy has, like, an army, told me in Twitter followers, like, if I were to do anything, like, it'd be career suicide.

[642] It'd be, like, it'd be terrible.

[643] It just gives you another reason to not fuck it up.

[644] Well, what I always say is like, A, I would get busted immediately.

[645] Two, there's no question who America's going to side with.

[646] Exactly.

[647] They're going with Kristen, and I'm, I am dead.

[648] I am persona non grata.

[649] It's like I never existed.

[650] I'm not suicidal.

[651] I'm not trying to do that.

[652] Okay, this is really, really incredible.

[653] And I don't even care about awards.

[654] But I got to say, I'm blown away by this.

[655] So, you know, John's an Egot.

[656] Not only is John EGOT.

[657] I didn't know that.

[658] John is one of only 15 EGOTs in the world.

[659] I am curious.

[660] When you'd gotten the other three or four, where you're like, I got to fucking pick up an Emmy.

[661] Like, was it, did it cross your mind?

[662] Like, I got to go close this thing out because I'd respect it if you did.

[663] It was discussed.

[664] Wait, some people might not know what it is.

[665] Okay, right.

[666] An EGOT is an Emmy, a Grammy, an Oscar, and a Tony.

[667] It's almost impossible.

[668] It can't, well, only 15 people have ever done.

[669] In the whole time of life.

[670] Yes.

[671] Okay, so tell me about, like, when it occurs to you, like, oh, shit, I got three of these.

[672] Well, so I have a production company, and two of my awards have come as a producer.

[673] the Emmy and the Tony.

[674] And so when we were getting close and we had won the Tony because we produced a play on Broadway called Jitney, it was a revival of an August Wilson play.

[675] And we were like, oh shit, like, we could have an EGOT.

[676] And you can't say, well, let's go get the EGOT.

[677] You just have to, like, try to do really good projects and then hope, you know, they get awards.

[678] And then NBC reached out to us and said we're thinking of doing our next live musical as Jesus Christ Superstar and I literally wasn't thinking about the whole Emmy thing when they asked me to do it because one, I figured a lot of these musicals have not gone so well.

[679] Oh, yeah, they are hit or miss. I had no expectation that I as an actor would get nominated for an Emmy because, like, why would I?

[680] But, you know, you get offered Jesus Christ Superstar.

[681] It's a pretty big role.

[682] It's Jesus Christ.

[683] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[684] Most people have heard of him.

[685] And they allowed us to be producers as well and help with, you know, casting the rest of the cast and helping with the music and all the things that needed to happen.

[686] So we were like, let's do it.

[687] We rehearse and rehearse and do the show, and it went so well.

[688] Like, all the critics said it was great.

[689] The fans loved it.

[690] It was, like, truly very successful, more than we could have dreamed.

[691] And then people are, like, legit talking about, oh, you guys are going to get some Emmy nominations.

[692] And then a lot of the press became around, oh, John might get the EGOT.

[693] And I got to get it on the same day as two literal legends, Andrew Lloyd Weber and Tim Rice.

[694] And we all got it at the same moment because we were producers on Jesus Christ Superstar.

[695] Wow.

[696] That's amazing.

[697] So there were 12 before that day, and we were 13, 14, and 15.

[698] You guys kind of devalued the whole thing.

[699] It's like you flooded the market with the e -gots.

[700] Okay, so now on your album, I downloaded this morning.

[701] Thank you.

[702] Well, the album, it's called Bigger Love, and I will say you as a Get Lifted once again, fan, I feel like a lot of my fans that felt like the next few albums weren't enough like that.

[703] A lot of them are saying that this is giving them that Get Lifted once again.

[704] Oh, good, good, good, good, good.

[705] So I feel like you will like this album and more than you've liked my last couple, I'm guessing.

[706] By the way, I've liked all of it.

[707] What's not to like?

[708] Yeah, yeah, you're so fucking talented.

[709] But, you know, as you can tell, if I liked your first two albums and I loved Van Hunt, I just like the sexy stuff.

[710] I just love the, I love the sexy stuff.

[711] I was re -listening to it this morning, to be honest, and I was thinking, you know, sometimes stuff doesn't age, you know, as our times change, I was like, is some of the sexy stuff going to, like, tip?

[712] And I'm like, no, it's perfect.

[713] Perfect.

[714] It's sexy and it's not demeaning in any way.

[715] It's not rapey.

[716] You know, a lot of that music now is a little rapey, unfortunately.

[717] Doesn't hold up quite as well.

[718] Yeah.

[719] And yours is not veered into rapy through time.

[720] Well, I think you're going to like bigger love a lot.

[721] I think it's actually probably the most sensual album I've done.

[722] There's definitely some good, if you're inclined to make any corona babies, I think it's a good soundtrack for that moment in your life.

[723] But it's also got a lot of those.

[724] you loved about get lifted, some of the hip -hop inflections and interpolations.

[725] And it's really soulful.

[726] I think you're going to dig it.

[727] It's executive produced by Raphael Sadiq, actually.

[728] So that's a nice bonus to have him in my life and be able to work with him on this.

[729] You've collaborated with so many people.

[730] The other person I worship is Jay -Z.

[731] We brought him up.

[732] I'm sure on another day I run into you.

[733] I want to hear about that.

[734] I'm a huge Jay -Z fan myself.

[735] It's not possible that a human can do what he does.

[736] It's It's not.

[737] It's like Picasso.

[738] He's so good.

[739] Yeah.

[740] Did you watch that documentary about him and it would show him.

[741] Oh, oh.

[742] And he just sit there for, I don't know, 12 minutes listening.

[743] And he writes a whole song in his head.

[744] I'm ready to get into the booth.

[745] And then he throws down those things.

[746] And the fucking references are so eclectic and it's seamless.

[747] He is phenomenal.

[748] I remember seeing the documentary, but also seeing him on 60 minutes and like other shows where he just let people in on his creative process.

[749] And it's stunning.

[750] And he's just so good at it.

[751] And he's been.

[752] been so good for so long.

[753] Yeah.

[754] Okay.

[755] And then the other thing I wanted to say is, like, you've got this amazing gift, which is you could be a technically perfect singer, right?

[756] But if you're gifted with some tone, this tone of yours, it's just so beautiful.

[757] And you can't really train for that, right?

[758] It's just, that's your voice.

[759] Or can you?

[760] There are things you can do.

[761] Like, I still take vocal coaching.

[762] Part of my vocal coaching is around stamina and making sure I can be better on tour.

[763] But I've gotten better at singing.

[764] I think over the years, too, as far as just sustaining my breath and sustaining the tone.

[765] But my tone, you know, that's the one thing that you have.

[766] It's pretty much what you have.

[767] You know, God gave it to you or whatever you believe about who gave it to you.

[768] You have it.

[769] And it's the thing that it's hard to replicate.

[770] It's hard to teach.

[771] You can teach people how to make the most of their tone.

[772] But tone is tone.

[773] And, you know, as a coach on the voice, literally that's the thing I'm listening for the most, is this tone special?

[774] Is it, does it give me chills?

[775] Does it move me?

[776] Is it interesting?

[777] Is it raspy?

[778] Is it cool in any way?

[779] Does it have a fingerprint?

[780] Because my wife and I'll fight.

[781] She loves musical theater.

[782] And I'm like, I don't really love it.

[783] Everyone sounds like a computer could sing it.

[784] It's like, yeah, the notes, I get it.

[785] They're getting hit perfectly, all that stuff.

[786] But where's the fingerprint?

[787] Yeah, you need that character.

[788] The best artists and the best singers are the ones that had the character in her voice.

[789] Okay, so with all that said, who did you call back and go like, okay, yeah, I was on your album.

[790] Now it's time to head over my way.

[791] Did you work with any artists on this?

[792] Well, I did that once.

[793] So, Jena Eiko, I was on her last album, and she is now on mine, and it's one of, I think, the better songs on the album, and a lot of people's favorite.

[794] It's called You Move, I Move.

[795] And then there's some artists I'd never worked with before they're on the album.

[796] One's name is Rhapsody.

[797] She's a rapper from North Carolina.

[798] She made a beautiful album last year called Eve, and I just loved it.

[799] Is it mind -blowing for you that you can fall in love with an album and you're in a position in life where you can go, all right, not only did I love that, I'm going to get myself involved in that.

[800] Like, I'm going to share that now.

[801] What a fucking, like the money, right, all the other stuff that you thought was going to be awesome.

[802] It's great, whatever.

[803] But isn't that the fucking magic that you can interact with people you love?

[804] The making of the music is still the most fun part of my career.

[805] and when I get to do it with really interesting, talented people, it's just, it's magical.

[806] And when we do something and it comes out right, and we do a lot of ideas that don't come out great.

[807] Like, I wrote 50 songs for this album, and some of them aren't that good.

[808] And, you know, they're fine, but they're not that good.

[809] But when you get it right and you work with somebody really cool that you can share that joy with, it's really exciting.

[810] And sometimes I've looked at, listened to albums and said, I really want to work with that artist and was able to make it happen.

[811] I remember I listened to the Alabama Shakes album, Sound in Color a lot.

[812] Oh, sound in color.

[813] A few years ago, and I was like, who produced this thing?

[814] And I ended up calling Blake Mills up, who produced the whole thing, and asked him to produce my next album.

[815] And we worked together in my next album, Darkness and Light.

[816] And so, you know, I think that's a cool thing.

[817] And you're right, it's a nice privilege to be able to have that when you listen to music and you love something, you can just call the person up and say, let's do some more of that.

[818] Yeah.

[819] And so we had Rhapsody on this album.

[820] We have Gary Clark Jr. on this album.

[821] And we have coffee on this album as well.

[822] She's a new Jamaican reggae dance hall artist who just became the first female and the youngest Grammy Award winner for best reggae album.

[823] Wow.

[824] That's great.

[825] What is your creative process?

[826] So you said Jay -Z can spit out a whole song in 30 seconds, I guess.

[827] And when we had Gwynethon, and she said one time Chris Martin ran to the piano and, you know, I know that's not every time, but have you had that experience?

[828] Oh, yeah.

[829] So a lot of my songs come very quickly, or at least the bulk of it comes very quickly.

[830] I may need to spend more time, like tweaking the lyrics or something.

[831] But a lot of it comes really quickly.

[832] So what usually happens is I'm using the room with one or two other people and maybe that person plays a guitar.

[833] Maybe that person is a producer that kind of makes tracks.

[834] maybe that person is just another lyricist or what we call a top line writer.

[835] The top line is basically the line that the vocalist sings, and a song is composed of the top line and all the music around it, the chord progression and the structure of the song.

[836] So there's usually two or three of us in the room, me and another top line writer or me and another musician that will help me with the accompaniment.

[837] And we just sit there and we start jamming a lot of times.

[838] And with all of me, it was just me and Toby Gad in the room.

[839] He's a producer and musician.

[840] And he also writes lyrics as well, but I wrote more of the lyric.

[841] And we just sat in the room, and I had an idea to write this song about my wife, soon -to -be wife at the time.

[842] And my manager suggested I listened to, she's always a woman by Billy Joel, which is a really good song as well.

[843] But she said you should write something in that vein, you know, that kind of song about Chrissy.

[844] and I was like, yeah, let's try that today with Toby, because Toby's the kind of writer that I felt like we could do that together.

[845] You know, he had written some really cool songs in the past.

[846] And so we sat down at the piano and just started playing things.

[847] And then at one point I started saying, All of Me Loves All of You feels like it could be a good, like, title and, you know, lyrical concept.

[848] And I was trying to find the music around that line that made the most sense.

[849] and eventually playing around on the piano long enough Bola me loves all of you you don't know what that's going to be yet and you just keep working on it until you figure it out so a lot of my songs start as scatting because I don't know what that bum bum bum bum bum bum bum is yet but I know musically that's what I wanted to sound like and eventually I'll figure out what it should say And so almost every song is basically music leading to SCAT, maybe having an original kind of hook concept, but then building a song around that before I know what the rest of the lyrics are.

[850] And then finally the lyrics come.

[851] Isn't it so cool that you created that song out of something so personal?

[852] And then people hear it.

[853] And that becomes their song with their partner.

[854] And that's the song at their wedding.

[855] And that has its own life.

[856] And then some, it's like the infectious quality of music is so beautiful.

[857] I think it's got to be the highest art. Like people have, you don't, couples don't have movies.

[858] They don't have paintings.

[859] They don't have books.

[860] They got music.

[861] That's what couples have.

[862] Families have.

[863] I listen to Fleetwood Mac and I'm like, oh, my mom's in a good mood cleaning when I'm a kid.

[864] That's when that comes on.

[865] That's such a gift you give the world.

[866] And it's probably a lot to take in, but it really is.

[867] Well, I'm grateful that I'm able to do it.

[868] And like I said, it gives me so much joy to be able to do it.

[869] When it's right, it's just a magical feeling.

[870] And we had a lot of those feelings of magic making this album.

[871] And so I'm just happy it's out now and people can enjoy the things that we put so much joy into.

[872] So you've had different levels of productivity.

[873] I curious, like sometimes you go five years between an album, sometimes you'll go just, I don't know.

[874] Your last album was 13 for bigger love, yeah?

[875] So, darkness and light came out in 2016.

[876] Oh, okay.

[877] And then I did a Christmas album, 2018, and a deluxe version of that in 2019.

[878] So even when it's kind of like a gap, I'm never stopping because I'm, like, doing something.

[879] So there was a gap between Evolver, which was 08 and Love in the Future, which was 2013.

[880] But I did the album with The Roots in 2010, so that kind of was in that gap as well.

[881] So even when it looks like there's a long gap, I'm never stopping.

[882] Yeah, okay, because I was going to wonder, is comfort an enemy of creative inspiration?

[883] Yeah, but I never have stopped, really.

[884] Like, I'm about to take three weeks off just to chill with my family, but when I come back, we'll be back to work.

[885] We've got to do the voice, and then I'll probably start writing more songs in the fall.

[886] So I never stop, really.

[887] Okay, how has having kids reshaped your identity, or do you feel like the things you cared about before have been right -sized?

[888] Well, it obviously takes over as a major priority, and you want to spend more time at home.

[889] You want to be more present for them.

[890] You want to make sure you're a big part of their lives.

[891] You want to help your partner who also is working and doing all these amazing things in their own career.

[892] It also makes you, I think, think about the future a lot more as far as, like, the kind of world you want your kids to live in.

[893] And so I don't like when people say, well, now that I have a daughter.

[894] or I'm more of a feminist or now that I have this, blah, blah, blah.

[895] But you do think more about the world that they're going to enter.

[896] And so I think that's meaningful.

[897] And then you take certain jobs, you know, that maybe you might have not been as excited to take otherwise.

[898] Like, taking the voice means I get to be home more.

[899] Right.

[900] It means I don't have to tour as much.

[901] And I make as much money just being in L .A., going to Universal Studios and coaching a new art. artist on the voice.

[902] And so that is a choice that I, you know, I might have made if I was single and had no kids, but it is made a lot more like a slam dunk.

[903] Oh, for me now, time is, time is, is so much more a part of every decision than it was six years ago.

[904] Exactly.

[905] And then the last thing I just want to say was like a good on you, which is, I can't say I'm shocked or disappointed in anyone.

[906] I'm certainly not.

[907] But I was very proud to see you in the R. Kelly documentary.

[908] Because that comes with a great risk that I don't know if people know the history of, and I think it's just relevant to say, this country has a really bad history of defaming black artists, black leaders.

[909] I mean, you know, the FBI was following Martin Luther King and recording them at all time.

[910] So there is, there is an appropriate level of the black community protecting its own and being suspect of accusations.

[911] There's, you know, there's a very good reason for that.

[912] Absolutely.

[913] And we're always of two minds because, you know, we don't want to see sexual abuse happen, but we also don't want to see people being falsely accused and people being caught up in a criminal justice system that was built to contain and destroy us.

[914] So when an issue like this is presented, you just have to weigh those concerns.

[915] And for me, it was abundantly clear that these women were telling a really credible story.

[916] There was a huge volume of these women that have been put in abusive situations by this man. And I had very close friends who had been activists in Chicago who deal with rape victims, young black girls in Chicago.

[917] And that's like the whole thrust of their foundation, their organization, is to deal with those young girls.

[918] And too long, we've protected these boys and men at the expense of our girls, at the expense of our women.

[919] And what I believed was these women were telling the truth and they had a right to have their story told and that anything I could do to help them I would try to do.

[920] Man, I'm more in love with you than I was before we've talked.

[921] So, you know, sometimes they say don't meet your heroes, but sometimes it goes well.

[922] I think you're so wonderful.

[923] I'm so excited about bigger love.

[924] I added it this morning on Apple.

[925] Maybe you'll fire up my 13 -year -old relationship.

[926] Maybe we might bang twice this week because of this new album.

[927] Corona babies.

[928] Well, they won't be mine.

[929] I have a vasectomy, but regardless, I'll raise them.

[930] Okay.

[931] John, thanks so much for your time.

[932] Wish you tons of luck on.

[933] I'm Bigger Love, and great to talk to you.

[934] Thank you so much.

[935] My pleasure.

[936] Be good.

[937] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[938] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[939] So we were just discussing the fact that you felt a little sleepy.

[940] Of course you were like, I have COVID.

[941] Well, well, well, to be fair.

[942] And then Kristen hit me with a text.

[943] I was like, I have a fever.

[944] I think I have COVID.

[945] I'm like, what's your fever?

[946] She's like, a hundred.

[947] I'm like, that's not even a fever.

[948] You could just like take a nap and wake up and be a hundred.

[949] I know, but listen.

[950] Listen, listen, listen.

[951] Listen, listen.

[952] It's time to be vigilant.

[953] It is because 20 to 40 % of people are asymptomatic.

[954] So if you have even a little bit of a symptom, sure you should get this thing checked out well what happened is when i went to work on wednesday they test me every day on set now every day well that's not true i got tested on wednesday and then i worked thursday as well but then i got the results last night yeah and i was negative yeah i kind of wanted to be positive i was like a mix of me well hold on a second hold on don't get mad at me don't get mad at me I'm not mad yet, but I'm mad.

[955] Let me just tell you why I was like, if I got it, stop thinking about it.

[956] That's nice.

[957] I'll have to like quarantine, which blows, and it would fuck up Phoenix.

[958] I probably couldn't shoot, I guess, for two weeks or something.

[959] At least.

[960] You're right.

[961] I didn't want it.

[962] I didn't want it.

[963] It was inconvenient.

[964] I was listening to Fauci.

[965] Yeah.

[966] He was talking about this, and he was saying, like, people should not say I want it because Because there's this period of time, if you have it, where you're giving it to people.

[967] Well, if I would have got that positive, if that would have been positive, I would have just fucking held up at a nice hotel for two weeks.

[968] I know, but do you know that if you were positive, you would have had it for like four or five days?

[969] Well, we don't know.

[970] Well, that is what they're saying.

[971] They're saying there's a period of time before you show up positive where it's in your body and you are passing it.

[972] And he was saying, you know, he's been chasing viruses for 40 years and this is the most insane one.

[973] Yeah, he's caught a few.

[974] I think we've all caught a few viruses.

[975] Oh, yeah, I've got one or two.

[976] Yeah.

[977] And he said this is the most insane one because of that element and because of just the crazy range of 20 to 40 people don't experience anything and then people are dying.

[978] Yeah.

[979] It's crazy.

[980] It's crazy.

[981] Guys, please wear masks.

[982] I'm going to say it on here.

[983] Please do it.

[984] Just do it.

[985] Just do it.

[986] It's not political.

[987] It's not political.

[988] It doesn't mean you're bleeding progressive.

[989] It means you don't want to injure someone.

[990] Exactly.

[991] That's all it means.

[992] It is really easy to just think of it in terms of yourself.

[993] We're all self -centered and narcissistic.

[994] We start looking out of our own eyeballs.

[995] So we are thinking of ourselves, or at least I am.

[996] I'll just own it that I am.

[997] And yeah, quite often I'm like, I don't care if I get it.

[998] I'll be fine.

[999] Fine.

[1000] I'm very optimistic.

[1001] I'd be fine.

[1002] And then I'm like, yeah, it's not what it's about.

[1003] Yeah.

[1004] It's not what it's about.

[1005] And for me, in a weird way, it's still about me because if I gave it to someone, I would feel very, very bad.

[1006] So I don't want to feel that.

[1007] Well, look, unless you're being reckless, you're very safe.

[1008] If you got it somehow and you pass it, you shouldn't have shame.

[1009] You catch a cold.

[1010] You catch a cold.

[1011] But in this case, it is different because you can be doing everything to not get it and spread it.

[1012] Right, but you're doing everything.

[1013] So if you were to get it, you shouldn't be hard on yourself.

[1014] You did everything right.

[1015] And then it's a virus.

[1016] Well, I'm fine getting it.

[1017] I just don't want to give it.

[1018] Give it.

[1019] Yeah.

[1020] Which is the whole issue.

[1021] Yeah.

[1022] I have an opposite take on that for gay sex.

[1023] I could potentially give it.

[1024] I shouldn't say that.

[1025] That's okay.

[1026] No, you can say.

[1027] Okay, I said it.

[1028] I think you already said it, so you said it.

[1029] Jonathan Legend.

[1030] What a smart motherfucker.

[1031] Man. You were really.

[1032] Do you have PQs?

[1033] Swooning.

[1034] Were you slooning?

[1035] Yeah, of course.

[1036] Yeah.

[1037] Of course.

[1038] You already swooned when you even think about him.

[1039] Uh -huh.

[1040] That voice is electric.

[1041] God, his voice and his music is so romantic.

[1042] and sensual, sexual.

[1043] Oh, PQ -E.

[1044] P -Q -E.

[1045] P -Q -E -Q -ish.

[1046] Well, not puky, P -Q -inducing.

[1047] Yeah.

[1048] Do we need to remind people what it means?

[1049] P -Cwiver.

[1050] Yeah.

[1051] I was really bold over with how so many things.

[1052] A, so smart, but beyond that, there's a lot of smart people.

[1053] Well, he's a Doogie Houser.

[1054] He's a Ronan Faro type.

[1055] Yeah, he's a Douglas Houser.

[1056] And not only is he crazy smart, there are a lot of crazy smart people that aren't good at communicating or laying out their ideas so that they'll be appealing to people.

[1057] That's like, yeah, unfortunately, in fact, it's almost inversely related quite often.

[1058] It can be.

[1059] It's like the smartest people are the worst at explaining shit or getting people to buy in emotionally.

[1060] It can be.

[1061] And the way he rolled out, defund the police.

[1062] Like the way he walked through it, I was like, anyone listening this should be in favor of what he's saying.

[1063] Yeah.

[1064] And he just, I've not heard it done perfectly up until that point.

[1065] Everyone I've heard Do It and on the news, they planted a couple landmines along the way.

[1066] I was like, I'd be triggering to me. I think you're also maybe more willing to hear it, not you, us, we're probably more willing to hear it from someone in his position who we like already, who is already bringing us something that we like, music, which is, I generally am like, I don't know that celebrities have to have a voice on everything.

[1067] But I also think there is a responsibility because people will hear you in a different way than maybe they'll hear the news anchor or whatever.

[1068] Yeah.

[1069] Well, he did a great job.

[1070] He did.

[1071] Can you just walk me through what the ideal fantasy would be?

[1072] Well.

[1073] Does he sing to you on the date?

[1074] Or would you feel uncomfortable with someone singing directly at your face?

[1075] Oh, that's a good question.

[1076] I don't think he needs to be staring at me while he sings, but he can be singing and playing piano.

[1077] I'll stare at him.

[1078] And you'd be like either behind or three quarters, so you could see him, but he couldn't look at you.

[1079] I want to be behind because I want to see his face and stuff.

[1080] So maybe to the side.

[1081] I'll be sitting by him on the piano bench.

[1082] Oh, okay.

[1083] But he'll be focused on piano.

[1084] He'll be focused.

[1085] He won't be looking at me. He could certainly look at you.

[1086] He's got the skills.

[1087] I know, but he won't because he knows me. Okay.

[1088] All right.

[1089] You'll ask him not to do that.

[1090] So maybe some light singing.

[1091] A couple of songs.

[1092] How many songs before you want to get on to the?

[1093] couch.

[1094] Listen, he's happily married.

[1095] Well, you're not saying that you're going to break up as marriage.

[1096] You're just saying in this fantasy where you're dating John legend, just the fact that in the fantasy you're dating, or we've already stepped out of reality because A, you're not dating and B, he's married.

[1097] But in this fantasy, how many songs before we lay down and just hold each other?

[1098] Probably.

[1099] You probably couldn't even get through the third song, right?

[1100] I don't even think I could get through the first song.

[1101] You might start molesting him.

[1102] Yeah.

[1103] Oh, wow.

[1104] I hate to say that in that way.

[1105] Well, I didn't.

[1106] You did.

[1107] I won't deny it.

[1108] Right.

[1109] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1110] It's a superpower.

[1111] Oh, I guess we could play this game with me and Rihanna.

[1112] Okay.

[1113] Right?

[1114] Because she's one of my fantasies.

[1115] Yeah.

[1116] Would I want her to sing.

[1117] Yeah, probably.

[1118] You would, yeah.

[1119] And how, for how long?

[1120] What I would like is like, she sings, we chat for 15.

[1121] Sure.

[1122] She sings again.

[1123] Oh.

[1124] A little more chatting.

[1125] Some kissing.

[1126] Sure.

[1127] And then sing again.

[1128] Let's take a little break from kissing.

[1129] Okay.

[1130] Like, the pump is primed.

[1131] Okay.

[1132] You want to just blast through to the finish line.

[1133] Of course.

[1134] But you're not because you want this to last forever because your wife's only giving you one night with Rihanna.

[1135] Oh, okay.

[1136] This is part of your fantasy.

[1137] Yes, yes.

[1138] So I'm probably going to stretch it out quite a bit.

[1139] Okay.

[1140] I might even go into the bathroom and jerk off to make sure that I can last.

[1141] Okay, okay.

[1142] Okay, I'm sorry.

[1143] That was way too much.

[1144] That was a little much for all.

[1145] I don't need to, well, I do want to give you a peek behind the male curtain.

[1146] Well, I'll speak for myself, and I do certainly some of my friends, you know, someone like of Rihanna's caliber, a very high likelihood that you're going to spray everywhere before anything, before you give her any pleasure.

[1147] Oh my God.

[1148] So you're going to go into the bathroom.

[1149] We're going to have a tug, tug, tug, tug, come back out, one more song, refractory period, and then maybe let's start rolling around.

[1150] This is why women are scared of men.

[1151] Why wouldn't you want the man to do something that would ensure that the experience would last long enough for that person?

[1152] At any moment, they stare at you and they can't control their body and they spray everywhere.

[1153] That's so flattering, isn't it?

[1154] It's dangerous.

[1155] It's a bit dangerous for a woman like that.

[1156] No, no, no, no, no. No one is doing this on the street.

[1157] You're on a date with Rihanna.

[1158] She's singing to you.

[1159] You're conversing for 15 minutes between songs.

[1160] It's very romantic, and the tension's building.

[1161] I know.

[1162] And then you just, as a boy, you go, hmm, we're in the red and the shirt's not off.

[1163] I'm just saying, adjacently, this idea is what is dangerous.

[1164] What idea.

[1165] Not you or not on a date, but in life.

[1166] That just you walking around.

[1167] No, I don't think walking around.

[1168] No, walking around, no one's going to spray.

[1169] On a date with an 11 and things are heading that direction.

[1170] So I'm being very specific about the context.

[1171] I'm not saying that guys walking down the street need to duck into alleys and spray.

[1172] That's not what's happening.

[1173] And I don't condone that.

[1174] I don't condone spraying in an alley because you were walking down the street.

[1175] Yeah, no. All right?

[1176] Maybe at a come and go.

[1177] No. At a come and go?

[1178] I guess that's what they're for.

[1179] Yes.

[1180] You go in there, spray, grab a Diet Coke.

[1181] But in this scenario, you guys are definitely going to have sex.

[1182] If I have one night with Rihanna, I really want to do a good job.

[1183] I understand that.

[1184] And she fucking deserves that.

[1185] As talented as she is, she could have been with anybody that night.

[1186] She picked me to sing too.

[1187] She did.

[1188] I got to deliver.

[1189] Yeah.

[1190] So three times singing.

[1191] Thrice time singing, one time tickle, tickle, and roll around.

[1192] Wow.

[1193] What an evening.

[1194] Well, you wouldn't ever hop.

[1195] You don't need to.

[1196] You and John Legend, you don't need to hop into the bathroom, tickle, because who cares if you spray?

[1197] Nope, that doesn't matter.

[1198] That's right.

[1199] You won't be rendered useless after that moment.

[1200] No, I can go on and on.

[1201] Yeah.

[1202] Lucky John.

[1203] Really in the fantasy?

[1204] I want to like walk in on him singing.

[1205] I don't want it to be for me. Hold on, hold on, hold on.

[1206] I can paint it even better for you.

[1207] Okay, go on.

[1208] You walk in.

[1209] You're not even early.

[1210] He just lost track of time because.

[1211] Because he thought of a song about something crucial from his childhood.

[1212] Oh, boy.

[1213] And he was pouring it out on the piano and he was sobbing.

[1214] There were some tears coming out.

[1215] He was crying and singing.

[1216] Yeah.

[1217] You would fucking spray.

[1218] Yeah, I would spray.

[1219] I knew it.

[1220] I would.

[1221] I knew you'd spray.

[1222] I wouldn't even duck into the come and go.

[1223] I would just spray right there.

[1224] He's so classy.

[1225] I feel so sad that this.

[1226] That we're talking sexually about him?

[1227] It's not even sexual.

[1228] It's just like real crass.

[1229] No. A little.

[1230] We're talking about all of our sprays.

[1231] I know, but we're not being super detailed about the consistency.

[1232] Oh, God.

[1233] Hold on, hold on.

[1234] Back up, back up, back up.

[1235] Listen to his first two albums.

[1236] He is a very sexual man in a great way, in a healthy, great way.

[1237] But he's also very classy.

[1238] I know he is.

[1239] You think classy people aren't sexy?

[1240] No, that's the opposite of what I'm saying.

[1241] I think he's sexy and classy.

[1242] and I think what we're doing is sexual and not classy.

[1243] Okay.

[1244] Agree to disagree.

[1245] Okay.

[1246] Hall and Oates.

[1247] You said they're from Philly.

[1248] And they are.

[1249] On Wikipedia, it says this.

[1250] And I don't know if it's true or not, but it says at the time.

[1251] Met an elevator?

[1252] Yeah, yes.

[1253] Yeah.

[1254] They met in an elevator.

[1255] Wow.

[1256] At the time they met, each was heading his own musical group, Hall with the Temp Stones, and Oates with the Masters.

[1257] They were there for a band competition.

[1258] when gunfire rang out between two rival gangs.

[1259] Yep.

[1260] And in trying to escape, they ran to the same service elevator.

[1261] Yeah.

[1262] That's real.

[1263] Are you impressed?

[1264] I knew that.

[1265] No, I know you know everything about that.

[1266] Yeah, I guess it's not in prison.

[1267] Yeah, they took an elevator together.

[1268] And Darrell Hall, he got this nickname in college, Blue -Eyed Soul, because he would go to these predominantly black soul acapella contests, and he would crush.

[1269] Wow.

[1270] Yeah.

[1271] He's a really cool musician.

[1272] Nice.

[1273] Okay, it says on further discovering that they were interested in the same music and that both were attending Philadelphia's Temple University, they started spending time together on a regular basis and eventually shared a number of apartments in the city.

[1274] One of the apartments they shared had hollow notes on the mailbox, which became the duo's name.

[1275] Yeah.

[1276] It would take them another two years to form a musical duo, and three years after that, they signed to Atlantic Records and released their debut album.

[1277] Most number one hits of any duet of all time.

[1278] The number one duet of all time.

[1279] They were like 38 or 39 top 10 hits or something.

[1280] So the most successful of all time duets.

[1281] And they were kind of late.

[1282] They were older.

[1283] Yeah.

[1284] They were like in their 30s when they broke instead of their 20s.

[1285] Yeah.

[1286] They knew themselves by then.

[1287] Yeah.

[1288] They had kind of done that Beatles 10 ,000 hours thing.

[1289] Mm -hmm.

[1290] Hi, Malcolm.

[1291] Hi, Malcolm.

[1292] I know you're listening.

[1293] We know you love our show.

[1294] Percentage of R &B that came from the church.

[1295] I did not expect to actually find an answer here, but Vibe Magazine did a article, and according to that, 85 to 90 percent of your R &B singers come out of the church.

[1296] Yeah, wow.

[1297] Wowy.

[1298] I know.

[1299] So now I'm really conflicted because, as you know, I'm not a churchgoer, but boy, what a great breeding ground for amazing music.

[1300] But you're not for taking away churches.

[1301] I'm not at all.

[1302] But I just, I do think the country has become slowly more and more secular every year.

[1303] That's the trajectory of Western civilizations.

[1304] For sure.

[1305] Europe's ahead of us in that.

[1306] And some places are nearly all atheists.

[1307] Yeah.

[1308] It scares me that that would be a huge loss.

[1309] There's a million things that I think are of great value in religion.

[1310] Me too.

[1311] There's a lot of things that would be lost.

[1312] That would be really sad.

[1313] That's why I think there should be a plan to replace the things we all love about it.

[1314] the community, the music, there's a lot of things.

[1315] But I don't know if we need a guy in the sky with a beard for all that to work.

[1316] Well, I don't think we do.

[1317] Just have a love of humanity in each other.

[1318] I would like that.

[1319] That seems hard to achieve, but we can try.

[1320] Well, I will say this.

[1321] Okay, so some of the armed cherries, naturally, because certainly many of them are religious, and thank you for always bearing with my take on it.

[1322] They want us to have a religious person on.

[1323] All right.

[1324] So then Gaga, Kristen's mom, Lori, she sent me a video, as she often does of a woman who was a surgeon who died for 30 minutes.

[1325] Okay.

[1326] And she went to heaven and then came back.

[1327] And this video is her explaining the story.

[1328] It's like a 30 minute video.

[1329] And it was riveting.

[1330] And I really liked this woman.

[1331] Now, I definitely believe she went to heaven in her mind.

[1332] I'm of the opinion, some chemical stuff, very similar to shrooms.

[1333] Oddly enough, your body releases DMT.

[1334] So I definitely think she went to heaven.

[1335] Now, I don't know that I don't think she really went to heaven, but I definitely know she went to heaven.

[1336] And I'm fine with that.

[1337] Maybe we should have her on.

[1338] She's pretty fascinating.

[1339] Was she religious before?

[1340] Yes.

[1341] She said she had always been really wrestling with this bifuricated nature of you're either scientific or you're religious and that those two things don't overlap.

[1342] Yeah.

[1343] And I've often been felt sympathetic to, yeah, what does scientists do?

[1344] Because you really, you can't, use creationism.

[1345] You can't say the world's 7 ,000 years old.

[1346] None of these things jive with any theories of physics, any theories of biology, any theories of evolution.

[1347] Yeah.

[1348] So what a thing for them to grapple with.

[1349] Yeah.

[1350] I'm sympathetic to it.

[1351] But for her, she said, you know, I had four kids.

[1352] I'm performing surgeries all the time.

[1353] And Jesus was something that was like eighth on my list to do.

[1354] Like I need, oh shit, I need to check it.

[1355] You know, like a chore.

[1356] Like pray.

[1357] Yeah, like check in.

[1358] And it's just one more demand on her.

[1359] And I was like, oh, that makes sense.

[1360] I never even thought of about that.

[1361] Yeah, probably religious people often feel like, shit, I got to make more time for that.

[1362] Yeah.

[1363] Like, I got to make time for AA.

[1364] Yeah.

[1365] So I could relate to it.

[1366] Through this experience, she was like, no, for me, it's got to be number one.

[1367] I got to be checking in with that.

[1368] Wow.

[1369] Wow.

[1370] Anyway, interesting.

[1371] She had a really interesting story.

[1372] All right.

[1373] Well, let's look into it.

[1374] Okay, great.

[1375] Well, really quick.

[1376] Let's just theorizes for a second.

[1377] Like, if we interview, reviewed her and she started telling us what God looked like, like how many minutes of hearing what God looked like before we'd be like, okay, yep, we got it.

[1378] Because we just don't believe she really looked at God.

[1379] I have a heart.

[1380] Okay.

[1381] So I think I would prefer to have someone on who's like a religious scholar.

[1382] Like a theologian?

[1383] Yes.

[1384] Because I'm in your camp.

[1385] Yes, I believe that she believes that, but I don't believe that.

[1386] Right.

[1387] So there's no like coming together on this.

[1388] Well, I compare it, and this is a little bit what people that are religious don't understand about my take is for me, it's like hearing about someone's dream for a half hour.

[1389] Like the dream, although exciting and maybe revealing some truth to you, it didn't happen.

[1390] And I have a hard time hearing a story about your thing that didn't happen.

[1391] Yeah.

[1392] I just bail out at some point.

[1393] Yeah.

[1394] So you're still telling me about this dream?

[1395] It's not.

[1396] You're still telling me about this dream?

[1397] It didn't happen.

[1398] I mean, I'm never going to be, and I don't think this would be the point of our episode at all, but I'm never going to be convinced that there's a heaven because this woman had that story.

[1399] Right.

[1400] But weirdly enough, and I know this where you and I differ a little bit, I believe for her, there's a heaven.

[1401] And I believe she has a God.

[1402] I don't.

[1403] But that doesn't make sense because then if you believe it is a thing that exists and that all it requires, is belief.

[1404] What I believe, this is based in anthropology, which is I don't believe in witchcraft.

[1405] I had a professor who didn't believe in witchcraft, but she went to sub -Saharan Africa to do her field work and someone put a spell on her and she almost died.

[1406] And then a shaman exercised the spirit that had been put in her body and she recovered.

[1407] And she was like, look, I don't know what to tell you.

[1408] I don't believe in that.

[1409] But when I was there and immersed in that culture, I don't know what to say to you, but I was somehow fell very ill from this hex someone put on her.

[1410] Right.

[1411] So what am I going to say?

[1412] I got to say that she and her life was possessed by a spirit.

[1413] Now, I don't believe I could be possessed by a spirit because I don't believe in them.

[1414] But she was possessed by a spirit.

[1415] So you know what I'm saying?

[1416] I know it seems weird.

[1417] No, no. I don't believe it for me, but I believe it for her.

[1418] So, yeah, I disagree.

[1419] I feel that that story makes me. feel like, yeah, there's a possibility that that could happen to me. Mm -hmm.

[1420] So with heaven, which I do not believe in, I don't believe that some people who believe in go to heaven and the people who don't believe in heaven don't.

[1421] I don't believe that.

[1422] That doesn't make any real sense.

[1423] Right.

[1424] So if I believed that she went to heaven for real, then I would acknowledge, oh, there is one.

[1425] Okay, here's my other example.

[1426] Okay.

[1427] So I worked with all these Filipinos in Detroit.

[1428] Mm -hmm.

[1429] They were straight from the Philippines.

[1430] Most of them had been in the U .S. for like five or six years.

[1431] All of them believed in ghosts.

[1432] Not only did they believe in ghosts, they all had these really detailed experiences with ghosts.

[1433] Right.

[1434] A couple of them had had them together, and they're telling the exact same story.

[1435] Right.

[1436] I believe them.

[1437] Yeah.

[1438] I believe they had that experience.

[1439] Yeah.

[1440] I don't believe in ghosts.

[1441] Right.

[1442] So in that weird way, I do believe they interacted with ghosts somehow.

[1443] For them, I don't think they're lying.

[1444] I don't think the whole thing they explained.

[1445] They were driving.

[1446] They hit a ghost.

[1447] And then the blood, even though they were going 80, was running down the windshield instead of coming up the windshield from the wind.

[1448] Like, I believe all that happened to them.

[1449] And I don't believe in ghosts.

[1450] But if you believe that happened to them, which I do too, I don't think people are lying about these experiences.

[1451] Are you saying you think chemically something happened to them that made them see that?

[1452] Or do you think they interacted with a ghost?

[1453] I think if you believe in ghosts, you'll interact with ghosts.

[1454] That's what I think.

[1455] So that means you believe they're real?

[1456] To the people that believe in them, yeah.

[1457] I know it's weird, but there's a really neat compartment in my head, and it works for me. Okay.

[1458] Like, I really believe Edward has had multiple experience with ghosts.

[1459] Edward, who?

[1460] That's my friend, one of the Filipino dudes.

[1461] So do I. Yeah.

[1462] I know many people.

[1463] And I don't believe in ghosts.

[1464] But who am I to say I can trust my culture and my point of view more than Edward's culture and Edwards' point of view?

[1465] That's cultural relativity.

[1466] Like that's his real life experience on planned earth.

[1467] I'm not one to say there's not ghosts because that would be telling him he didn't have that experience.

[1468] So what I can do is say, dude, I believe you, you had that experience.

[1469] And then if he goes, do you, if you have any experience with ghosts, I go, no, I don't believe in ghosts.

[1470] And we're done.

[1471] Yeah.

[1472] I believe people who've had those paranormal experiences as well.

[1473] And when I hear those, I don't think, well, that won't happen to me because I don't believe in them.

[1474] I think, oh, there could be something going on that I don't know.

[1475] I'm not ruling out that I won't have an experience like that.

[1476] Right.

[1477] And I had an experience like that.

[1478] I've told you about it where three of us were in Camp Deerborn.

[1479] We saw this guy was this red energy thing that changed shapes and it looked like he was on a bike for a minute and then he shot across his field at like the speed of light and we're like what the fuck is that now I have no explanation for what we saw and we all saw the same thing but my explanation is not that I saw a ghost right I don't know what the fuck I saw because I don't believe in ghosts right right right right right and no one knows what that was yeah so the person that believes that was a ghost is is equally entitled to that conclusion as I am that it wasn't a ghost yeah because no one knows what it was.

[1480] Yeah.

[1481] Okay.

[1482] So the Chris Rock joke about the dentist, well, he was talking about his house in Alpine, New Jersey, and the people he listed were himself, Mary J. Blige, J. Z, and Eddie Murphy.

[1483] There we go.

[1484] What a neighborhood.

[1485] I know.

[1486] Do you think he couldn't have lied?

[1487] I don't know.

[1488] I don't know.

[1489] I think it's true.

[1490] Might be.

[1491] They all live in Alpine, New Jersey, or have homes there, I guess.

[1492] That's interesting.

[1493] I thought the super rich people went to Westchester.

[1494] I've never heard of Alpine, which is - Must be gorgeous if they're all.

[1495] all living there.

[1496] It must be.

[1497] Okay, John talks a little bit about counting the prisoners as part of that local population.

[1498] To get the federal money.

[1499] Exactly.

[1500] So I guess more states are moving towards counting the prisoners as residents of their home communities as opposed to where the prison is.

[1501] Oh, oh, oh.

[1502] States are moving towards that.

[1503] That's interesting.

[1504] Yeah.

[1505] Yeah.

[1506] Well, that would definitely de -incentivize people building a prison in their community.

[1507] Yeah.

[1508] Oh, and you said the LAPD has a $6 billion budget, $2 billion.

[1509] Wow.

[1510] So I'm glad I corrected that.

[1511] Yeah, I've been saying that a lot lately.

[1512] Where did I hear that?

[1513] Maybe you're confusing the amount of people.

[1514] I have no idea.

[1515] $2 billion.

[1516] $2 billion.

[1517] Yeah, because even if you counted like L .A. County sheriffs and all this stuff, I still wouldn't get up to $6 billion.

[1518] I don't think so.

[1519] CHP.

[1520] Yeah.

[1521] I don't know.

[1522] Okay.

[1523] Well, I don't know where I heard that.

[1524] Now I'm embarrassed.

[1525] Don't be embarrassed.

[1526] a 300 % fuck up.

[1527] But that's okay.

[1528] We fixed it.

[1529] Yeah, we fixed it.

[1530] Okay.

[1531] Two billion.

[1532] Now I know.

[1533] No, I know.

[1534] I know.

[1535] I love you.

[1536] I love you.

[1537] I hope you flesh out this legend fantasy a little bit.

[1538] I want to hear more deets.

[1539] What do you eat?

[1540] Oh.

[1541] You know.

[1542] What are we eating together for dinner?

[1543] You mean?

[1544] Yeah.

[1545] You and John.

[1546] You and J .L. I, you know, he's so romantic and stuff that I, everything in the fantasy is like.

[1547] You're in a song, basically.

[1548] Yeah, I'm in his song.

[1549] So there's like steak for dinner.

[1550] Oh, red wine and some red wine and some asparagus.

[1551] Yeah.

[1552] Some fresh, rich greens and some kale or some spinach.

[1553] Yeah, I just, I just.

[1554] A real clean meal.

[1555] Well, steak isn't necessarily clean, but it's decadent.

[1556] No, you can get a nice, like a filet for you, maybe.

[1557] Yeah.

[1558] Yeah.

[1559] Yeah.

[1560] Like a butterfly.

[1561] A butterfly hot dog.

[1562] All right.

[1563] Love you.

[1564] Love you.

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