Michael Moss

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert, experts on expert.

[1] I'm Gail Burnham and I'm joined by Joe Strether.

[2] Hi, Joe.

[3] Hi, Gail.

[4] Did you say you're a Gail?

[5] Yeah, Gail Vernon.

[6] Is that what I said?

[7] I don't know.

[8] I can't get my new name straight.

[9] Everyone's going to hate this episode, okay?

[10] Also love it.

[11] It's so interesting.

[12] And it's bad news.

[13] That's why you're going to hate it.

[14] Michael Moss is incredible.

[15] He's a number one New York Times bestselling author and Pulitzer Prize winning investigative reporter.

[16] His previous book, which was radical, was salt, sugar, fat, how the food giants hooked us.

[17] And his new book, hooked food, free will, and how the food giants exploit our addictions.

[18] Now, everyone knows how hard it is to maintain a healthy diet.

[19] But what if some of the decisions we make about what to eat are beyond our control, is it possible that food is addictive, like drugs or alcohol?

[20] And to what extent does the food industry know or care about these vulnerabilities.

[21] Michael sets out to answer these questions and to find the true peril in our food.

[22] I would say this episode's delicious.

[23] I guess I could.

[24] Well, gal could.

[25] This episode's delicious.

[26] Enjoy Michael Moss.

[27] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to armchair expert early and add free right now.

[28] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[29] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[30] He's an I'm Shakespeare.

[31] Hey.

[32] How are you?

[33] I'm good.

[34] Thank you.

[35] I'm pretty excited about having this conversation and I'm trepidacious.

[36] Ooh, those are the best.

[37] You know, people don't even like to invite me out to lunch and worry about like what I'm going to order.

[38] Well, I immediately think about the blowback from Gwyneth Paltrow, just suggesting that she feels better when she eats a lot of vegetables.

[39] and organic.

[40] We actually had her on and talked about that reaction.

[41] And I think people quite easily feel judged when the topic of food and healthy food and bad food, I think it's easy for people to get defensive or feel attacked.

[42] And so I guess I want to start this by saying that's not really your aim here, is it?

[43] This is more of a defense of how we've been hijacked.

[44] Yeah, I'm much more focused on.

[45] on telling the story of how these companies got us so dependent on their products.

[46] And letting like the nutrition stuff, the high fat, low fat people fight it out amongst themselves.

[47] That's not really my issue.

[48] And truth be told, there's junk food in my house.

[49] You know, my spare time, I actually do some mountain climbing where it's the complete opposite.

[50] And we look at a food label and go, holy shit, there's only 500 calories in this bag.

[51] I need $6 ,000 today, so I'll tell you a little trick, it's to take this stuff and crumble it up and sprinkle it on everything you're eating to, like, get those calories.

[52] That was free -dows for the audience.

[53] I was just going to say, this stuff is Freedos.

[54] Although for the astute listener, they would have been able to tell the crinkle.

[55] The crinkle, the audio signature fingerprint of Friedo's bag.

[56] Well, not only tell, but that crinkle is going right to their brain.

[57] too.

[58] I mean, that's one of those channels that they have down perfectly to pull us in.

[59] Now, this is the second book you've written on the topic of food.

[60] I also want to mention because I don't want to force you to brag for yourself, but Pulitzer Prize winner, you're a hell of a journalist, and I'm curious what drew you to write yet another book.

[61] You felt like you hadn't covered some stuff, obviously.

[62] I mean, I really put everything into salt sugar out the first book, But right when it came out, the interviews started happening.

[63] And one of the very first was with a British TV tabloid show, right?

[64] You know those guys.

[65] Sure.

[66] And the first question was like, so I can't mimic the accent.

[67] I apologize.

[68] So, Michael, you know, have you been sued by all these companies yet?

[69] But then the second question was, you end this book on this really optimistic note saying, look, I mean, ultimately we are in charge of deciding what, to eat and how much to eat.

[70] How can you say that?

[71] Isn't this stuff you're writing about as addictive as drugs?

[72] And if so, where does like free will and all that come into it?

[73] And I kind of like, I really didn't know the answer.

[74] And so for weeks and I kept getting that question, I hemmed and hard.

[75] But I thought, more I thought about it, I thought, this is really an interesting question.

[76] I mean, is this stuff addictive as drugs in some way?

[77] And if so, are there any sort of lessons we can draw from our other addictions that might sort of shed some light on how we should deal with these food giants.

[78] And so I went full circle.

[79] I went from complete skeptic, like, you know, you're crazy.

[80] This can't be like heroin to actually coming around and thinking, this stuff in some ways is even more addictive than cigarettes, alcohol, some drugs.

[81] Right out of the gates, the thing I've always sympathized with people who are in, say, OA, is that I don't have to casually take cocaine three times a day.

[82] That's not required for me to be alive.

[83] So I can just avoid cocaine altogether.

[84] But if you have a food addiction, you do have to eat a few times a day.

[85] It would be like me having to do a line of cocaine every day.

[86] So I'm so sympathetic to what a different struggle it can be.

[87] Not only eat three times a day, but you have to face all of that advertising and marketing that's out there in a way that sort of drug advertising isn't sort of in your face, or even tobacco, cigarettes now.

[88] We've sort of pushed that away.

[89] But you're right.

[90] There's no cocaine Super Bowl commercial.

[91] It's constant.

[92] And when you're trying to sort of control and you can't go cold turkey with processed food or any food for that matter.

[93] I think that is, in fact, one of the things that makes food more problematic than drugs is it's everywhere.

[94] It's cheap.

[95] And by the way, too, I mean, one of the things that the food company said to me, little Michael, how can you compare Twinkies with cocaine?

[96] Because we've done these brain scans, and your brain lights up so fiercely tasting a drug or even just looking at some paraphernalia.

[97] But here's the thing.

[98] Food doesn't have to excite our brain as much as drugs.

[99] Because it's so commonplace, we know we need it.

[100] It's marketed so heavily.

[101] It's in our face all the time that we really kind of.

[102] of need just a little bit of nudge to lose control and act impulsively.

[103] Yeah, there's a whole mechanized industry behind it encouraging you to do it at all hours of the day, which is certainly different from drugs.

[104] I just want to see the name of your book really quick.

[105] It's hooked food, free will, and how the food giants exploit our addictions.

[106] So I wonder if you could give us just the Reader's Digest version of when our food starts.

[107] becoming processed, when we started getting scientists involved, perfumists, all these people who started manipulating our food and turning it into what it is currently today.

[108] It really roughly started maybe 50 years ago, 60 years ago, 1960 years ago, 1960s, food companies had on staff or available to them chemists, psychologists, marketing experts.

[109] And that's really when they began working so hard and kind of so professionally maximizing the allure of the products.

[110] And lo and behold, it's a very crude measure, but that's also sort of when obesity began rising in this country, 1970s, 1980, along kind of the same timeline.

[111] They began getting very good at presenting food to us in a way that we would get hungry, even without being hungry.

[112] And it's also when, I think it was 1963, there was a copyrighter on Madison Avenue.

[113] They were scrounging around for a new slogan for Frito Les, the potato chip.

[114] And he came up almost kind of out of the blue.

[115] It was just like one of those strokes of brilliance.

[116] But he came up with that slogan, Bet you can't eat just one.

[117] And that was really kind of the kickoff for not only kind of they're perfecting their game, but almost taunting us.

[118] But remember, too, in those days, it was a more innocent thing.

[119] Yeah.

[120] And a lot of these food executives who I got to talk to me and open up about the business, they've come to have huge misgivings about their life work.

[121] But one of their defenses, having invented things like the luncheables and the hot pockets and this and that is, They invented these things in a more innocent era when we were treating them as special and occasional indulgences, not an everyday thing.

[122] So that grew is sort of our being wowed by these products and being drawn to them grew over time.

[123] Yeah, if I even look at my own childhood, it was like generally, I went to school and I had a couple of normal sandwiches, either baloney or cheese.

[124] mind you, that's pretty processed.

[125] But occasionally a Twinkie would find its way to me. We weren't loaded, so it was like a rare treat.

[126] And I have to imagine even that cheese sandwich that was pretty processed is still superior to a lot of the pre -packaged options that are out there right now.

[127] And it just seems like it's got more.

[128] What do you smiling?

[129] I just had so many luncheables.

[130] What was your favorite?

[131] The pizza.

[132] I love.

[133] the lunchables pizza so much.

[134] And you're rich and beautiful.

[135] So maybe everyone should just eat luncheables.

[136] Well, I think it's really fascinating because right now, some of these things are coming back.

[137] Like Dunkeroo's is back.

[138] And there's this cake, ice cream cake, that Breyer's made called Vianetta.

[139] Oh, yeah.

[140] That I was obsessed with that my grandparents would get me. And I loved it so much.

[141] And then I was on a vacation last year with Kristen and some girls.

[142] And we were in Vienna.

[143] And I was like, oh, my God, I wonder if they have Vianetta here.

[144] And so I was asking all the waiters and stuff.

[145] Then I looked it up as like, oh, this is Breyer's product.

[146] Can I tell you why you're confused?

[147] Because I still remember the commercial.

[148] It was served on this very elegant plate.

[149] And they took the thing off and they cut it with a really fancy cutting instrument.

[150] And it was royalty.

[151] They did.

[152] But the fact that you can remember that and I can remember that.

[153] The way they cut it.

[154] And they're bringing it back.

[155] So Vianette is back, which I'm thrilled about, but also the nostalgia that is connected.

[156] Like, it is an electrical brain thing happening when I hear Dunkeroo's back.

[157] Like, I'm transported.

[158] It has an insane power.

[159] Memory is so critical to what we're talking about in kind of all addictions, but especially with food because scientists talk about the adolescence bump.

[160] when you're in those years, you're creating more memories that are stronger and last longer than any other time in your life.

[161] And so our vulnerability to sort of junky foods, but any kind of food at that age is incredible because it will stay with you.

[162] And you can not have that thing for 30 years.

[163] And then you hear about it.

[164] And boom, those memory channels are still in your brain.

[165] cues, right?

[166] We'll still go to that reward center of the brain that was pushing the go button.

[167] Another fun thing we could talk about just to explain why we're so predisposed to this.

[168] We talk about it kind of often because get ready to drink.

[169] I was an anthropology major, which I say every five seconds.

[170] Yeah, it's a drinking game on the show.

[171] But, you know, in learning about early man, we were designed to, when we saw some fruit in bloom, eat all of it.

[172] because it was going to be a very short window when we could upload all those calories, right?

[173] And so we survive because we overconsumed and we indulged.

[174] But of course, we're not in that scenario anymore.

[175] I'm sure in researching this book, you could add to that.

[176] Yeah, and again, the companies are sort of tapping into these deep basic instincts of ours.

[177] And that was one of the richest parts of the research for me, for this book, was spending time with anthropoletologists who are explaining to me sort of how we evolved going back 4 .4 million when our forebears began walking upright.

[178] Incredible changes to the body in the way that we smell, in the way that we thought about food, in our attraction to variety, and in our ability to kind of put on body fat, because that's what distinguished us from chimps, which went another direction, and all other mammals.

[179] I mean, it's all about procreation having more babies, right?

[180] And if you could put on more body fat, you can have more babies.

[181] And the way to put on more body fat is to become incredibly sensitive and allured to food.

[182] So, of course, we're addicted to food.

[183] Yeah.

[184] We've been addicted to food for four million years.

[185] The problem is that wasn't a problem until 50 years ago when they changed the nature of our food and made overeating an everyday thing.

[186] And so we can talk about all that, those parts of the body that are built, not just to eat, but to overeat.

[187] Yeah, that addiction that we evolved with secured our existence.

[188] It was a prerequisite for us to exist.

[189] But now we live in a crack house.

[190] Everyone lives in a crack house.

[191] So that's what's happened is now it's everywhere.

[192] And I was watching 60 minutes, I don't know, maybe eight years ago.

[193] and they had a segment on some of these food scientists.

[194] They were kind of perfumous, right?

[195] They created artificial flavoring.

[196] And they brought this group of them out to an orange grove.

[197] And they all took oranges off a tree and they peeled it and they took bites and they were breaking it down the way they would.

[198] And one of the guys said, this is, you know, it's got a really good flavor.

[199] This is happening.

[200] This is happening.

[201] But this would not be desired in a food product because the taste lasts too long.

[202] We'd want it to dissipate much quicker so you'd have a desire to eat another one.

[203] faster.

[204] And when I heard that, that to me was the tipping point where I was like, I used to have more of a libertarian take on it, which is like, hey, personal responsibility, you got to mind what you eat.

[205] You can't be blaming the coca farmer for your cocaine addiction.

[206] But when I saw that they've employed scientists, that's not a fair fight at that point.

[207] No. And I have even better one for you, though, too, because there's a group of these companies called flavor houses.

[208] They're lined up and down, New Jersey on the other side of the Hudson River from Manhattan, it's probably a couple dozen of them.

[209] They work for the food industry.

[210] They are chemical labs, right?

[211] These are the people who invent pumpkin spice flavoring, right?

[212] Using as many as 80 ingredient chemicals to sort of come up with the perfect version for whatever product is using that spice.

[213] And it spent some time with them for this book, but after all, I realize that the real magic that they're giving to grocery manufacturers, including the big box stores that make their own processed food, is their ability to formulate products cheaper and cheaper, because it's all about driving the cost down.

[214] So they're looking for chemicals not only to sort of wow the brain, but chemicals that'll do that for less cost to the manufacturer.

[215] And the reason they're doing that is that we're addicted to cheapness.

[216] And even this can go back millions of years because think about it.

[217] When you're hunting for your dinner, your goal is to do so by expending the least amount of energy possible because you're saving that energy to live.

[218] It's life or death.

[219] And I have a feeling it sort of translate today because, look, I mean, so many of us are in real dire straits financially.

[220] And we're shopping for low cost because we have no alternative.

[221] But the rest of us, that's still the number one consideration when we walk into the grocery store is like, what's the cheapest version of this I can get?

[222] Because of our attraction to low cost.

[223] And so that's one of those deep instincts that the companies are pushing to get us going their way.

[224] Well, I assume you read Fast Food Nation back in the day.

[225] Absolutely.

[226] Yeah.

[227] And I remember when that author went to that bank of labs in New Jersey that you were talking about.

[228] And the one that freaked me out the most is he's like, he couldn't never say the exact product, right?

[229] That was the agreement he made.

[230] But they were holding these little strips under his nose.

[231] And he said, and this one blew my mind, he didn't just smell hamburger.

[232] He smelled hot cooking hamburger.

[233] Like when you walk into a fast food restaurant, that that, even that is manufactured.

[234] And I thought, how could it smell be a hot cooking hamburger?

[235] They probably have that, like, you know, there's this thing about the Mayard reaction, which is like the browning of meat when you cook it.

[236] And there's a way to sort of simulate that.

[237] But let me tell you about smelling since we're on there, right?

[238] So when we stood upright, we developed a much stronger way to have two ways of smelling, right?

[239] One is through the nose, of course.

[240] It goes up to this little sensitive thing right below the brain called the olfactory bulb that you're getting from the food, go up there and send those great signals to the brain.

[241] But we also smell through the mouth when you chew food or sip wine that releases more of these volatiles.

[242] And when we stood upright, it developed in the back of our mouth, kind of this little chimney effect.

[243] So instead of like swallowing those volatiles down to the stomach, they rise up to the nasal cavity and bobbyn.

[244] bombard that olfactory bulb with more smells.

[245] And as much as we think of food as taste, or rather flavor as taste, right, salt sugar, fat, it's such a five basic taste, 80 % of what we call flavor and food is actually coming from the smell.

[246] We can identify and separate over 300 different smells.

[247] And so we became really good at smelling.

[248] And the companies, of course, are now really good at mimicking those smells and using that.

[249] to maximize the alert.

[250] Okay, here's my great frustration.

[251] I thought of it after I read that section in Fast Food Nation, which is why can't we have broccoli that tastes like an Oreo?

[252] To me, the problem is we're putting all these yummy flavors into these binding agents that are basically just high calories and no nutrition.

[253] Like, it's just going on to a shitty delivery system.

[254] Why can't we make asparagus that tastes like spare ribs?

[255] Why isn't there a company that's using that fun part, but putting it in a good delivery mechanism?

[256] The actual broccoli itself, I mean, I think you're making a really good point.

[257] One of the things about the food company is that they've added sugar to so many products in the grocery store that we've become, we get at the point where we're expecting everything to taste sweet.

[258] And so that makes it much more shocking to kids, especially when they taste broccoli or broccoli rob.

[259] But I have to tell you, I mean, addiction is a matter of kind of repetition.

[260] And one of these scientists who I came to trust said to me like, look, we like what we eat more than we eat what we like, meaning the more you eat something.

[261] Look, there are people in some parts of the world who eat bugs, crunchy bugs, and love them as much as you loved luncheables, Monica.

[262] Well, I doubt that.

[263] It's a, well, absolutely.

[264] It's a matter of what they're.

[265] habit, what their parents, their memory sort of teaches them about.

[266] There's a Mongolian currently eating a yak testicle that thinks this is as a good as be of anetta.

[267] No, nothing's as good as Vianetta.

[268] I'm telling you, it's a delicacy of Mongolia.

[269] And that's one answer to your question.

[270] If you got a kid, you're trying to get him to eat broccoli, the rule of thumb is you've got to like get him to try it 19 times.

[271] And then he develops those little menomery channels.

[272] And look, it's not going to taste like Oreos, but it's going to be okay.

[273] Why not?

[274] We have the technology.

[275] I don't understand why they can't make a superfood that tastes like Vianetta or Vianetta.

[276] Vianetta.

[277] Vianetta.

[278] Why?

[279] Because then it'll be sugary.

[280] No, the actual, it's just perfume.

[281] What they're making there is perfume.

[282] And then it's bound with sugar and all this other stuff, right?

[283] But, well, I'll let the expert answer that.

[284] Can we make a cow spinach loaf that we've infused with all these yummy smells?

[285] I don't know.

[286] It's out of my pig red to think about.

[287] But I'm sure it's coming.

[288] I do want to add to what you just said, though, because I have had the experience where I've tried a million different diets.

[289] But at one point, I was vegan for a year.

[290] And I will say there was a baked potato bar at work.

[291] And so I got in line and I got my baked potato.

[292] And then it was sour cream.

[293] Can't mess with it.

[294] Cheese.

[295] Can't mess with that.

[296] there was nothing for me to put on it couldn't put butter on it whatever and i was watching everyone eating i was like this is going to be terrible and i just ate a fucking baked potato with some salt on it and it was mind blowing i had such low expectations and i was like okay i haven't had that stuff for long enough that i'm now i love this baked potato and it's as delicious as i think it ever was with all that other stuff so i agree with you and i've experienced it where you'll end up liking what you eat if you eat it enough.

[297] Yeah.

[298] And again, I think most people have the opposite problem is they're okay with broccoli.

[299] They're okay with a plain baked potato.

[300] It's just the impulsiveness at three o 'clock in the afternoon.

[301] It's that craving that seems to come out of nowhere that completely throws them for a loop and they're dashing for the junk snack before the thoughtful part of their brain can even sort of catch up and say, hey, wait a minute, Michael.

[302] is just really a good thing to be doing right now.

[303] Speed is one of the great things that food giants have going for them, right?

[304] I mean, that's why fast food is such a perfect name because that stuff is designed to get to our brain as fast as possible.

[305] And I'll give you an example if you'd like.

[306] Yeah, please.

[307] So you smoke a cigarette, you drink, take a drink of alcohol, even inject some drug.

[308] it's going to take a few seconds to activate the brain systems that are going to recognize that and get excited by that.

[309] And scientists have learned that the faster a drug hits the brain, the more we're going to react compulsively and the less ability of the stop part of the brain, that's the rational part in the front here that says, hey, wait a minute, let's think about this, the more it's going to be way behind the curve and you're going to be off and running before it can catch up, right?

[310] But they did this little test with sugar.

[311] The thing about sugar and salt and fat is that they cheat.

[312] So when you taste something, the second it touches your taste book, that sensor sends a signal to the brain.

[313] So they did this little test.

[314] They put people, you know, sat them down, gave a little taste of sugar and had to put their finger on this button.

[315] And they were asked to, as soon as you taste sugar, push that button.

[316] And guess how long it took for the signal of the sugar on the tongue, not just to get to the brain to identify that, hey, I'm tasting sugar, because that's where flavor happens in the brain.

[317] But then to send a signal down back to you going, that was sugar, push that button.

[318] Eight tenths of a second.

[319] Less than a second.

[320] That's how fast that sort of food flavors trigger the brain.

[321] And again, things like sugar, salt, fat are so important to the processed food industries because they're kind of the first things that hit your taste buds in your mouth that powerfully.

[322] So their abilities to hook us by being fast is one of the hallmarks.

[323] Yeah, and can I just draw a quick comparison?

[324] There are levels of even a drug's static, drugs addictive quality.

[325] So people who snort cocaine, that does take seven to eight minutes to work.

[326] When you smoke it, crack, it goes into your lungs, so it absorbs in your bloodstream so much faster.

[327] So that's highly, so much more addictive than snorting it.

[328] And then the worse is when you shoot it and you feel it almost instantaneously, that's the most addictive.

[329] And if you even chart people's meth addiction, whether they snort it, smoke it, or shoot it.

[330] Once they shoot it, the rate of recoveries sub 10 % for people who try.

[331] It's so powerful.

[332] So the thing you're describing is faster than all of those.

[333] Yeah, no, absolutely.

[334] And that does remind me of something else, too.

[335] because one of the other things that the companies said to me early on in sort of the research is pushing back.

[336] Is it, look, Michael, how can you say Oreos are addictive if only two -thirds of America is overweight or clinically obese, right?

[337] I mean, a third of the people have like no problem eating one or two Oreos and sealing the bag up and putting in a way.

[338] So isn't it on you or them instead of on us?

[339] How can you call our product addictive?

[340] But there are casual users of drugs.

[341] Oh.

[342] There are people who can use heroin casually, take it or leave it, without any sort of serious long -term effect.

[343] There are people who can smoke a cigarette one day, not have it for three or four days, and then come back and have another cigarette.

[344] Likewise, alcohol, of course.

[345] Many of us are casual imbibers of alcohol.

[346] And so then I kind of realized that it's not just.

[347] just the substance, but it's our own vulnerability which can change over time and from person to person.

[348] So in some ways, I kind of realize we're like unwitting co -conspirators with these manufacturers of these substances in helping them to hit our addictive buttons, if that makes sense to you.

[349] It totally does.

[350] And I'm reminded of in a Malcolm Gladwell book, he gave a statistic of people who have experimented with cocaine, and 95, I want to say, it's up above 90%.

[351] I think it's 95 % of people who try cocaine don't ever develop a problem with it.

[352] So that's cocaine, that's cocaine, which we all recognize as being very addictive.

[353] And you're saying, is that the rate that Americans, two -thirds of Americans are technically obese?

[354] A third of Americans are overweight.

[355] We're up to now 42 % of Americans are clinically, Obes.

[356] Meaning if you're sort of average build, you're going to be 30, 35 pounds over the weight that you should be sort of optimally for the best health.

[357] Yeah.

[358] Stay tuned for more armchair experts if you dare.

[359] We've all been there.

[360] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[361] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case.

[362] scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[363] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[364] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[365] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[366] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[367] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[368] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[369] What's up, guys?

[370] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[371] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[372] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[373] And I don't mean just friends.

[374] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[375] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[376] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[377] Now really quick, are you having a hard time right now even bringing something up like that?

[378] I feel like as we talk now about obesity, it's a very sensitive subject.

[379] I think it gets conflated often with fat shaming.

[380] Yet we do have a ton of medical data that says as you get into these higher percentiles of obesity.

[381] you have very predictable health outcomes.

[382] Yeah.

[383] So, I mean, obesity is a really crude measure of health.

[384] There are people who will be measured BMI as being obese, and they're incredibly strong and probably healthy, right?

[385] Absolutely.

[386] It depends on the person.

[387] So I think the only way you can sort of deal with that is, A, I have a doctor looking at you and all of your health parameters, and then maybe on an overall sort of pot.

[388] population measure.

[389] But I totally agree.

[390] It's a crude measure that I don't like to draw.

[391] Except in this case, as a measure of, for many people anymore, it's a measure of losing control, of having this repetitive behavior that you kind of find it difficult to quit.

[392] And let's quickly compare it to cigarettes, if we could.

[393] So again, we all have come to terms with the notion that cigarettes are both incredibly addictive and very harmful.

[394] I don't know what the rate of smokers is that gets lung cancer.

[395] Do you know off the top of your head?

[396] I do not.

[397] Yeah.

[398] It's high.

[399] I'm sure it's high, but I think I want to say, well fact check it, but I want to say it's like a third of people.

[400] So in ways you could measure the outcome of food, the current food we're eating as, it has to be at least on par with smoking or perhaps worse.

[401] Yeah, I mean, there's some huge health consequence to.

[402] unwanted obesity, if you will, in terms of health costs, in terms of life, shorter life expectancy, in terms of lost productive hours on the job.

[403] One of the things that sort of I realized in writing this book is that there were a number of scientists who were studying drug addiction who shifted to food, seeing an even larger sort of health problem and in some ways kind of more intriguing for them from a scientific standpoint.

[404] And I found that they were really good guides in looking at food comparatively to drugs.

[405] But again, they shifted there because of this enormous sort of health consequence of not an overeating, but, and here's the other thing going back to obesity, you can be lean and incredibly unhealthy by eating food that's just not good for you.

[406] It's not nurturing you.

[407] And maybe you're not putting on weight for some reason, but you're not doing any better in terms of your diet from a health standpoint than somebody who's putting on lots of weight.

[408] Well, I was tempted to give Keith Richards as an example, but now that I think about it, he's still with us.

[409] You know, maybe he's having the last laugh.

[410] But yeah, he was lean.

[411] I don't know if he was healthy.

[412] In establishing that it is an addiction, do they have comparative models of like, what's the success rate when people try to break this addictive cycle?

[413] Is it less than other things we know?

[414] It's actually pretty grim.

[415] Turns out that body fat is not like this bunch of innocuous gelatinous material.

[416] It's an organ, a clever thinking, talking organ that has one mission in life, which is to prevent you from messing around with it and reducing it, right?

[417] So body fat will communicate with the rest of the body through, they think through hormones, some other signals.

[418] and will make you hungry, will lower your metabolism, if you're trying to lose weight.

[419] And it is so difficult once you gain weight more than you want to, to then turn around and lose that weight because your entire body, including the body fat, or maybe especially the body fat, is fighting back against you.

[420] And I'll give you an example.

[421] I mean, I met this guy named Don in Ottawa.

[422] Canada who through tremendous kind of good fortune willpower was able to go from 360 pounds to 180 in 13 months it was really incredible he just sort of decided I've had enough I want to change I'm gonna do it I don't have kids I can focus on this my job is okay I have some money right he was very fortunate in many ways but when he got to 180 pounds that's when the nightmare began for him because his His entire body and brain was screaming at him 24 hours to regain that weight.

[423] It's like he'd never lost it.

[424] Those extra 180 pounds were still in his brain, in his memory.

[425] He had to put locks on his kitchen cabinet to slow himself down.

[426] At one point, he would get on an intercity bus to like Montreal or someplace or Toronto, just to remove himself from the possibility of eating, gorging himself on food and sort of sticking to his diet.

[427] I thought that was so telling that not only is it in a fight to lose the weight, but once you lose that weight, you've got a really hard road ahead because that addiction lingers.

[428] Yeah, I was going to say, you know, it's very well known that cocaine addiction messes with the chemistry in your brain, and it sometimes takes years for it to return to like a homeostasis.

[429] And I think a lot of us have experienced that.

[430] So, yeah, I have to imagine it takes a while for the brain to get back to a state that's not craving all the time.

[431] Yeah, and look, I mean, as you know, addiction happens on a spectrum, too.

[432] One end, it's people who binge them.

[433] I mean, I met people who would go to the grocery store.

[434] And by the time they got home, their car would be littered with empty wrappers because they're eating while they're driving home because that's the compulsion, right?

[435] But to the other end of the spectrum where people are just like, they're a little off put by their diet.

[436] They're wanting to sort of change one thing or another, but find it really difficult.

[437] They're just kind of uncomfortable with the kind of food they're eating.

[438] And even for those people changing an aspect of the diet can take time.

[439] And if you're on the lower end of the spectrum, some people talk about it's taking like at least a couple of weeks.

[440] I run, and I know that when I have friends who start running, I'll often see that they'll run for a week and then kind of give up.

[441] And so the one advice I kind of give them is just try to stick with it long enough to get to the point where you hate not doing it more than you hate doing it.

[442] And that can take like a couple of weeks, three weeks, and then because what's happening is you're deepening these memory channels in your brain.

[443] And a scientist sort of compared it to a stream bed in the desert that every time there's a flash storm, water comes roaring down.

[444] It deepens the stream bed.

[445] And so what happens is then that the cues out there that direct you to whatever action that is become much more powerful and important.

[446] So those cues can be junk food, right?

[447] When those memory streams deepen and you see a package of crappy snack, that stream, the deeper.

[448] It is more apt you're going to act on that.

[449] But the flip side of that, too, if that's a streambed channel for a positive act on your part, exercise, that's going to be stronger and it's going to be easier.

[450] But it takes time.

[451] One thing I was blown away with in your book is that are there 57 kinds of sugars now?

[452] Is that what the number was?

[453] Yeah, maybe even over, maybe even over 60 now, yeah.

[454] And part of that is their drive for cost, right?

[455] So when the price of one kind of sugar, corn syrup goes up, they're looking for something else to sort of substitute in there.

[456] Uh -huh.

[457] And then you also point out that they've created this problem, and then they've created a solution to it, which is right next to all the products that got you in trouble are diet versions of the product.

[458] So we were talking about the cure to a drug habit is to go cold turkey and abstain, right?

[459] I mean, that's at least, that's kind of the tried and true and it works, sometimes it doesn't work, and how you can't do that with food.

[460] But knowing that, this phenomena of the diet came along, which is we can just help you eat a little less of that food that you were overeating before.

[461] And I have to say I was stunned to learn that none other than my favorite processed food giant companies stepped in and bought the biggest diet programs and companies and products out there and began filling the grocery store kind of with these products that looked every bit like the mainline product, but it was a slightly fewer calorie.

[462] and they'd sit next to each other on the shelf.

[463] But the idea that these companies would, you know, get us to overeat and then sell us a product that ostensibly would help us under -eat.

[464] Well, you know the result, of course, is that for most people, dieting is pretty problematic.

[465] It works until you can't stand it anymore and you go back to your regular eating habits.

[466] It is reminiscent of the pharmaceutical industry as well, which is like, let's say you get prescribed an opiate, and then now you've got constipation.

[467] So now they make a specific prescription for opiate constipation.

[468] And then you go on that, and it's just like, you're taking all these drugs just to allow you to take the first drug.

[469] That's a little bit what it feels like.

[470] Well, one of the companies, one of the biggest processed food companies in the world.

[471] And they had another acquisition of a liquid meal.

[472] that you would eat if you had stomach surgery to deal with obesity, right?

[473] So every year, some 200 ,000 Americans are having their stomach surgically shrunk to help them eat less.

[474] The possibilities for having a full meal aren't there, and so they need to get their calories and vitamins and minerals.

[475] this solution to solve the problem one could arguably was contributed to by the other part of their business.

[476] I have found myself on both sides of this argument.

[477] I say initially my instinct is to say, people have free will.

[478] They are allowed to kill themselves.

[479] I don't want to deny anyone the right to go out in any fashion they'd like, if that's through overeating or drinking, whatever.

[480] That's their choice.

[481] So I was of that mindset for a long time, that that's liberty, whether you like it or not.

[482] But the reality of how our medical system works is that when you exercise that liberty, you're also taking away other people's liberty because that cost is shared by everybody.

[483] It'd be one thing if you signed up to be an alcoholic or a coke addict and you signed away where it said, I will never go to the hospital.

[484] So I will never ever use the resources of the rest of the folks that aren't fucking up.

[485] That's fine.

[486] In that society, I stand by my original thought.

[487] But just knowing and recognizing and acknowledging what the health system is, is that we will all incur the costs of all these decisions.

[488] Then it gets a little trickier.

[489] I'm curious what your thoughts are on that.

[490] Yeah, and there's a seatbelt analogy too, right, which I thought.

[491] Also, look, if you don't want to wear a seatbelt or a helmet on your bike or your motorcycle, fine.

[492] Just sign here saying you'll never go to the hospital and use any medical resources.

[493] when you get hurt.

[494] And I guess I had a few thoughts about that.

[495] One, so much of we're talking about involves kids who don't have free will and or knowledge and or personal responsibility.

[496] In fact, I started the book with the story of, do you remember those two teenagers who sued McDonald's for making them obese?

[497] No. I went back since about 2000, 2001.

[498] Everyone, everybody kind of laughed.

[499] The late night talk shows did their jokes and kind of made fun of them.

[500] But I went back and met and interviewed for the first time one of those teenagers.

[501] And it was so illuminating to sort of step inside her world, starting at age six, when fast food sort of got its hooks in her.

[502] And come away feeling, look, this was somebody who didn't have free will, didn't have full responsibility.

[503] For many people, that's up into older age, too.

[504] Not everybody knows what a calorie is.

[505] Not everybody can read one of these bizarre nutrition facts labels on these products and understand what it's trying to say and craft a diet.

[506] It costs money to eat healthy.

[507] So I think I would argue that many of us lack kind of full responsibility, even as we get older.

[508] I agree with every point you just made.

[509] And I'll add, too, I'm still in favor of people making decisions.

[510] that are terrible for themselves.

[511] I want them to have the freedom to do that.

[512] But I don't think it's too much to ask that they're informed.

[513] So not unlike cigarettes, where they had to eventually put on there, this thing causes lung cancer.

[514] So go crazy if you don't mind lung cancer.

[515] I don't know that we have full disclosure with food.

[516] No, absolutely we don't.

[517] No, you walk into the grocery store.

[518] I mean, they're doing everything they can to get you not to think about what you're putting in your shopping cart or no restaurant.

[519] You know, the La La Land music.

[520] and the bright colors and those fake smells.

[521] It's all intended to get you to act impulsively.

[522] They put the sodas and the cooler right at the checkout stand where your kids tugging on your pant leg going, give me some snacks, and that's where all that stuff is.

[523] So everything that they do makes it so hard for us to sort of exercise, free will, and judgment in that sense.

[524] And not only that, but here's the other argument, it may be for some kind of government intervention, whether it's like a sugar tax or what have you, is that the companies themselves fight so fiercely for space on the shelf.

[525] You know, I wrote about Kraft finally deciding to want to do the right thing by its customers and reducing the calorie loads, the sugar loads, and its products.

[526] And the second it did that by reformulating some of them, the competitors swooped in with products that were double the calories and double the sugar content, and they started losing money, and they had to go back to their old formulas.

[527] So the competition within the industry is so fierce that one of the heads of these companies, this was a former CEO, Philip Morris, which for years and years made not just cigarettes, but some of the biggest icons in the grocery store, said to me, look, I hate government regulation, but in this industry, it may take some outside force sort of pushing us, to make a decision because we can't do it on our own.

[528] Wow, I would have never thought of that.

[529] Yeah, that maybe the market forces leave them with zero option and that they would actually welcome some kind of government oversight.

[530] That's unthinkable.

[531] What's that going to look like?

[532] Even in a Biden -Harris administration, like what is that government intervention going to look like?

[533] And if I was king for a day, I often thought about what one could do and you could pick a zip code.

[534] And you would have to change like 10 different things to help people change their diet in a better way for health.

[535] And some of that would be planting a little garden in the elementary school, not to feed the kids, but to get them excited about what a radish or broccoli looks like.

[536] But then you'd have to do something else because they're going to go home and tell their parents and they go, well, we got nowhere to buy broccoli in this neighborhood.

[537] I hate to tell you, kid.

[538] So you need some sort of access to better, healthier foods.

[539] And it's kind of on and on.

[540] So there's a lot of stuff that needs to happen all at once.

[541] I would argue, too, if you go really far upstream, just the notion of what we subsidize.

[542] So we subsidize heavily corn, so everyone grows corn.

[543] And then we have all these products that we derive from corn.

[544] Now, they could be subsidizing anything, really.

[545] And that's a huge decision that has all these implications downriver, yeah?

[546] Yeah, the money aspect of this.

[547] And the subsidy is not just sort of pumping money to the companies.

[548] It's doing the research that makes.

[549] corn and soybeans less and less expensive and more affordable.

[550] That's where the farmers who grow fruits and vegetables get really screwed because very little of that federal research money relative to corn and soybeans is going to help them make broccoli cheaper and sweeter and more affordable.

[551] And that's where the real imbalance is in the whole farm government ag research.

[552] system.

[553] So you cover some in your book, and I'm curious, what kind of legal cases have happened?

[554] I certainly have not seen any publicized.

[555] Very little.

[556] And that's the reason.

[557] I mentioned the two teenagers who sued McDonald's for making them obese.

[558] Did they win?

[559] I got to say my knee -jerk reaction to that is, of course, I think what everybody's is, which is like, oh, fuck you.

[560] You can't sue McDonald's.

[561] Like, that is my impulse to go, not a chance.

[562] You can't.

[563] not sue the coca farmer in Colombia.

[564] But it is true that these companies are tricking people.

[565] Yeah.

[566] The one analogy I wanted to make or parallel I wanted to make is I kind of have this take responsibility for yourself attitude about the internet until I really learned about the algorithm and learning that the algorithm knows every choice you've made for the last 10 years and that the algorithm actually knows better than you do what you will like.

[567] Once that has happened and you are so vastly overpowered by that, I got to question whether anyone's in control of that.

[568] And they change those algorithms, right?

[569] I mean, with the pandemic, a lot of us thought we could change our eating habits because at least we didn't have like a vending machine, the workplace that we would like be tempted to.

[570] But lo and behold, sort of snack sales soared for the companies.

[571] And they were able to start shifting their marketing in ways that targeted us feeling emotionally drained, even at home, and getting us to sort of put those items in the grocery basket.

[572] But to go back to that litigation, so two really interesting things happen.

[573] One, lawyers who sued big tobacco in one approached the lawyer for those two teenage girls and said, hey, we suggest you fiddle with the allegations in your lawsuit a little bit to add a new component and a new allegation, which is that these foods not only were unhealthy and da -da -da -da -da, but that they were addictive, right?

[574] Because that was the thing that really turned the legal case against the tobacco company was, look, most of us didn't think of smoking as being addictive until the 90s.

[575] And once we did, then the tobacco companies started losing these big cases because now you could say, if that product is addictive, then none of us have any free will.

[576] none of us have personal responsibilities totally beyond our control they own us right and when they introduced sort of that addictive element to the McDonald's case the industry went bonkers they got scared to death and they went around the country to state legislatures and they passed what were called burger bills which actually prevent anybody from suing a food manufacture or fast food restaurant for making them overweight oh wow that's one reason why you're not seeing any of these cases it sounds delicious though doesn't it burger bill it sounds like a restaurant yeah yeah exactly okay I'm gonna take one other angle at this I fucking love double stuffed Oreos I eat them what once every three week not even probably once a month I would say you eat them once every three months.

[577] Okay, once every three months, we're going to go through probably a couple rows of it.

[578] And on Super Bowl, I eat every fucking chip that is sold.

[579] I bought every single one in every single dip.

[580] And I went crazy.

[581] I lost myself and I enjoyed it so much.

[582] So I can see me going, you know, look, when I quit drinking, I didn't ask that they get rid of alcohol.

[583] I'm a little worried that, like, because I can do it, that it's all going to disqual.

[584] disappear, what do you say to me, boo -hoo?

[585] No, I think it's because, you know, so you don't drink at all.

[586] You're not one of those people who was an alcoholic and then kind of figured out they really could sort of take a drink.

[587] Ooh, I've not met one of those.

[588] They're like unicorns.

[589] No, I haven't drank in 16 years.

[590] I mean, I guess I would say, look, as a journalist, I mean, all I'm trying to do is level the playing field here.

[591] I'm not a policymaker, right?

[592] I just want to give everybody the facts and sort of, and again, going to that question of free will, clearly you're somebody who knows what they're stepping into with those occasional sort of pigouts on junk food.

[593] Yeah.

[594] And know enough about it not to make that a regular sort of daily part of your lives.

[595] There are a lot of people who don't know that and don't know how easy it is to sort of slug.

[596] flip from an occasional pickout to a daily pig out.

[597] And so that's my hope, anyway, is to give them that information.

[598] There's also got to be, is this in your book, there's got to be a stark difference.

[599] The income inequality gap has to be playing a huge role in this as well.

[600] Like, I'm always quick to admit, like, yeah, I'm in a position where I can decide what food I want to get.

[601] It's a huge luxury.

[602] It makes it so much easier for me. If I'm going to eat meat, I get to go get really good grass -fed meat, you know, any of these things I want to do are a huge luxury of not living below the poverty line.

[603] So I almost think there's a moral imperative, which is if it is disproportionately affecting the poor or disproportionately affecting the black community or the Hispanic community, well, first of all, is it?

[604] And if so, we have a bigger societal issue where it's like we're kind of victimizing the people that have the hardest road ahead of them.

[605] Yeah, the extreme example of that is so many of the insiders in the processed food industry, the executives, the chemists, the marketing people there don't eat their own products, either because they don't have to because they have a spouse who doesn't have to work outside the home and they have time to cook from scratch or they have personal trainers who've taught them about nutrition being fuel for their bodies, or they're compulsive and they can't open a bag of chips without eating the whole thing and then grabbing another bag.

[606] That's the extreme end of it.

[607] And on the other hand, are people who just kind of totally unaware, again, what's a calorie and what's nutrition and what are these chips doing to me?

[608] And absolutely, there's an inequity.

[609] And so when I say level the playing field, it has to do with race and it has to do with income.

[610] and just fairness, giving people the opportunity to make their own decision.

[611] Well, it's really literal here in Los Angeles because it's such a multi -nodal city where you're driving through all these little pockets all the time.

[612] And certainly when you're driving through Beverly Hills and Brentwood, there are no Doritos billboards.

[613] Now, of course, real estate's an issue there and outdoor advertising's an issue and the cost of that.

[614] But as you work your way towards downtown, towards Korea towns, South Central, now it's picking up.

[615] and every other billboard is either for soda or a snack food or a fast food.

[616] And it's very telling, unavoidable, obvious.

[617] You know, going back to the brain and sort of how we respond.

[618] So you have to be careful with brain scan studies.

[619] They're coming a new one every day showing this and that.

[620] You've got to be a little skeptical.

[621] But I found somebody out in Oregon who does some incredibly great science work.

[622] And he was able to track people over time.

[623] And he was showing them pictures and giving them tastes of food.

[624] And he discovered that as we gain weight, we become more vulnerable, sensitized to cues, to advertising, so that two people driving down the road and they see a billboard for a fast food restaurant are going to have very different reactions in the brain to seeing that cue.

[625] the person that's been eating there habitually, their brain is going to light up with a huge craving where somebody who hasn't been going to their restaurant will look at the billboard and not even pay attention to it.

[626] And so in some ways, the two societies we have, rich and poor, are kind of the same way.

[627] Wealthy people aren't even seeing the billboards, but if they did, they're not going to react to it in the same way.

[628] And that's why those billboards and that advertising is there.

[629] Those companies are focusing on the people who are patronizing them the most and are the most vulnerable to not being able to sort of control their reactions to sort of seeing that cue for the product.

[630] That makes a ton of sense.

[631] If you and I had to drive by an Emily's burger, billboard, like the reaction we would have versus people who had not eaten there would be so different.

[632] I don't know.

[633] Emily's, is that pretty good?

[634] Oh, wait.

[635] Do you live in New York?

[636] Yeah.

[637] Oh, stand up and leave right now and go to Brooklyn.

[638] There's a few Emmylies, but the one in Brooklyn has a burger.

[639] It's very expensive.

[640] I'm going to warn you now.

[641] When we ordered it, I was like, this is insane.

[642] We had heard it was great.

[643] I was like, fucking 27.

[644] This is too much money.

[645] It came.

[646] I took one bite and I said, this is the most underpriced hamburger I've ever had my life.

[647] It's so good.

[648] It is unbelievable.

[649] It is unbelievable.

[650] You must, must try.

[651] We think about it hourly.

[652] I know.

[653] I'm looking at your brain right now.

[654] I'm just going like, whew!

[655] Well, Michael, I'm so glad you wrote Hooked.

[656] Hooked food, free will, and how the food giants exploit our addictions.

[657] I think it's just a great bit of knowledge to have when making all these decisions and making these plans about how you're going to eat, how you're going to live, all that stuff.

[658] I'm so glad you had me on.

[659] It's been really great to talk to you to both.

[660] Well, you're prolific, so I bet we'll talk to you again.

[661] You'll write something else.

[662] Yes.

[663] Could you write something about cars?

[664] Cars?

[665] But favorable?

[666] You know, I think I do have to shift over to something else.

[667] I say, you know, 10 years now I've been, like, torturing the processed food industry.

[668] There's a lot out there.

[669] The brain seems to think in trilogies, though, doesn't it?

[670] I'm scared for you that you actually have a third and then you'll move on.

[671] I thought about a third in sort of this.

[672] solutions book, right?

[673] People are pushing me that, but the solutions are so hard because it's different for everybody.

[674] And I, for a second there, I thought maybe I had an angle that was kind of interesting, but I don't know.

[675] I don't think I'll get there.

[676] For my own sanity, I may have to move on.

[677] There's nothing as frustrating as just the entire category of nutritional scientists.

[678] You cannot get any consensus about any kind of way to eat.

[679] It is maddening that there's still no consensus.

[680] No, and I think the companies that manufacturers love that because they're incredibly good at adjusting their formula to deal with whoever's winning.

[681] So when the anti -sugar people are winning, they'll lower the sugar and raise the fat.

[682] And when the anti -fat people are winning, they'll do the reverse, et cetera.

[683] So I think they love it when we look at food in its kind of nutritional formulations as opposed to asking the more basic question.

[684] Like, is that this real food or not?

[685] And I don't need a bunch of numbers and stuff to tell me that.

[686] Yeah, I want to add one time, and I don't want to say the name of the chain because it's my favorite store.

[687] And the store's divided into, they've got beautiful fresh produce and really nice meat.

[688] But then you turn a corner and then the whole other side is food that can stay on a shelf for a thousand years.

[689] And I don't know why it clicked one day where I turned that corner and was like, oh, right, this isn't food.

[690] Like, it's edible, but food shouldn't stay good for a thousand years.

[691] There's something implicitly wrong there.

[692] Yeah, they have to manipulate it pretty heavily to keep it from rotting 10 years down the road.

[693] And the other hallmark of processed food are often getting asked.

[694] How do you tell the good foods in Nevada in the store?

[695] But the way to tell processed food, the ultra -processed food, is so much of it involves very little chewing, right?

[696] It kind of just melts in your mouth.

[697] Oh, my God.

[698] And that's a real good way to tell because it doesn't have the original food stuff anymore.

[699] The grain or the fiber, that's all been processed out.

[700] What it has is like 50 % oil and fat.

[701] So it gives you that luscious mouth feel.

[702] And so if you're ever wondering, you know, is this good or bad?

[703] Just take a taste.

[704] And if it just dissolves in your mouth, it's a pretty good chance.

[705] That's one to watch out for.

[706] Michael, I went straight to my favorite memory on Planet Earth, which is if you dunk that Oreo for the perfect amount of time in milk, by the time you get it to your mouth, you just slurp it.

[707] You slurp it off your fingers and it's a paste.

[708] Oh, boy.

[709] I'm going to be thinking about that the next time I eat Oreos, you son of a bitch.

[710] Fantastic.

[711] Sorry about that.

[712] Well, Michael, thanks so much for talking to us.

[713] And good luck with Hooked.

[714] I hope everyone checks it out and makes good choices for themselves.

[715] Thank you so much.

[716] Great fun.

[717] Bye -bye.

[718] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[719] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Badman.

[720] Oh, fuck, my ride's here.

[721] That was a police siren.

[722] Yeah, I don't know if people heard it.

[723] I think so.

[724] So Michael Moss taught us about food.

[725] About food.

[726] And it was very informative and very.

[727] depressing.

[728] Depressing, yeah.

[729] But good to know.

[730] I mean, we're being bamboozled.

[731] Around every turn.

[732] Yeah.

[733] Big business has the capital and the resources to research us and be smarter at controlling us than we are ourselves.

[734] Yeah.

[735] It's not a fair fight.

[736] Like, nature's doing it in a way that you don't overeat because that tastes lasts for a while so you don't need to eat 100 oranges to be to slake your lust.

[737] Yeah.

[738] Mm, my God.

[739] Do you like when I use those literary references?

[740] We were just saying, what do we?

[741] I just did the most mundane thing.

[742] And then I celebrated myself.

[743] And I basically forced you to give me some compliments.

[744] I basically was fishing for approval.

[745] Yeah.

[746] And then you gave it to me because you're gracious.

[747] Kind of.

[748] I did like a half.

[749] And then there was like a couple beats.

[750] Then I said, oh my God, I need so much approval.

[751] It must be exhausting to be.

[752] around me. And then you said, I'm exhausted.

[753] It's exhausting being me. Yeah, looking for it.

[754] Yeah, then you turned it into you being a victim.

[755] Yeah.

[756] Yeah.

[757] Well, I think everyone's losing.

[758] Good pattern.

[759] I think everyone's losing in these pursuits.

[760] The pursuits for approval.

[761] Yeah, sure.

[762] Do you think you'll ever get tired of talking?

[763] No. No, I don't.

[764] I don't.

[765] When you're by yourself, do you talk out loud?

[766] No, but I'm having conversations in my head.

[767] In your head.

[768] Yeah.

[769] Everyone does.

[770] Well, I don't know if everyone does, but I do.

[771] But you like talking so much, like out loud.

[772] I sometimes wonder, do you just talk out loud?

[773] Maybe you don't even know.

[774] Well, you know, like you like doing...

[775] Shopping.

[776] Yeah, that's not an example that I would think parallels my thing, which is, like, I like spades, right?

[777] I like spades so much because the whole time you're playing it, your brain is engaged in trying to make the perfect decision.

[778] Yeah.

[779] And I find talking to be a very similar exercise.

[780] We're like, I want to craft the very best sentence that sums up how I think in the most efficient way possible.

[781] It's like it is a tactical experience to communicate.

[782] That's lovely.

[783] You think that's bad?

[784] No. Might be bad, but I don't think it's bad.

[785] It is my hobby in that I love, I do love putting together sentences.

[786] I know you do and you're good at it.

[787] Oh, well, thank you.

[788] I certainly practice more than anyone else.

[789] You're very good at it.

[790] Talk non stuff.

[791] Sometimes.

[792] Yeah.

[793] Hit me with it.

[794] No, I mean, there's not really anything.

[795] There's no buts, but sometimes it feels like you're so committed to perfecting the words.

[796] Okay.

[797] That it's disingenuous?

[798] No, but that supersedes the conversation.

[799] It can.

[800] Oh, I don't feel that way.

[801] Could you give me an example?

[802] I don't know.

[803] I don't know if I can give it.

[804] Sometimes when we're talking, I feel like.

[805] Like, not really when we're talking just me and you, like, in real life, in real life, IRL.

[806] But maybe sometimes on here, it feels like it can be in certain moments, more important to you to get out the, the funniest thing or the best thing or the most interesting thought as opposed to like just fully engaging with me. Sometimes I think that.

[807] Sometimes I think it slips in there.

[808] But not all the time, of course, because we have so many engaging conversations.

[809] I'm trying to think if in my memory I've ever thought, oh, I could be joining her on this, but it would be boring.

[810] So I'm going to choose to fence her.

[811] Mm -hmm.

[812] And I don't remember ever making that decision in my head.

[813] Yeah.

[814] But I could also be unaware that I'm making it.

[815] I don't think you're making any real decision.

[816] I think it's just you enjoy.

[817] that so much that it can sometimes trump connecting emotionally the listening and response because you're kind of on your own track sometimes of I think what you're saying is like finding the perfect thing to say because you enjoy that yeah I mean it's the thing I like about doing improv yeah I mean just talking is doing improv it is of course yeah and so I just love doing on a stage and of course on a stage it's heightened and on here it's heightened not on the level of a stage but yeah it is a heightened format yeah and i get energized by it and like i would on stage an improv no i know it's a source of yeah fuel another source of fuel ding ding ding ding food oh right yeah yeah people in our pod before hawaii mm -hmm many were on diets mm -hmm and I was thinking recently, like, it's just not worth, like, if you really permanently were like, I'm never going to eat anything with sugar, I'm never going to eat anything bad, and you're able to do it, like, you have discipline, you can do it.

[818] Like, is that a life you want to live?

[819] Like, the idea that I wouldn't ever have Emily Burger again because I was trying to just eat very, very, very clean.

[820] Doesn't seem worth it.

[821] I want Emily Burger sometimes.

[822] Yeah, I mean, it's such a complicated calculus.

[823] First of all, how much does your physical appearance affect your self -esteem and your mood?

[824] So you've got to kind of be honest about evaluating that.

[825] Yeah, sure.

[826] As Aaron and I talked about on race 270, when we were kids, he never thought about it.

[827] He never was at a beach thinking about whether his gut was hanging over his suit.

[828] I was, and it could ruin my good time there.

[829] that's not a virtue of mine i i wish i weren't that way but i have to be honest with myself that i am that way so if you can ruin my enjoyment of things then i've got to prioritize it for me yeah so then it becomes this big sliding scale of how much less will i enjoy it uh being out on the beach versus how much will i enjoy the emily burger and i i have a zone for me yeah like i have a very well you see me and i doubt this is healthy but i'm very I'm very militant for a while and then I have really epic cheats and then I'm militant and then I'm cheat that's how I stay in a zone that I am not feeling bad about myself physically and I prefer that method than just like a lot of people I know that are in great shape and stuff they just eat clean all the time which seems logical like if you you know if you want to be healthy you just put really good vegetables in your body all the time and yeah but I mean but that's my point like yeah consistently eat things that make your body feel good but but also there's a joy that you get and like going to a awesome restaurant with people and indulging like that brings it for me that brings a mental health boost that I'll never get from just like looking in the mirror and being tiny I totally agree but again it is specific to us because Kristen can go like just gorge yourself at a vegan restaurant eating virtually just vegetables and for her it feels like she's eating at emily burger for us yeah so there are people it's like they they find that perfect sushi place that's got the cleanest fish and it's very simple it's just fish and a little rice and that to them it is an emily burger experience and i do think you can lower your like baseline but that's not my choice right and i guess i just obsession of any kind i don't think is healthy so i think if you're obsessing about only eating this amount or this kind of thing and never breaking it.

[830] I don't even like the word like cheating.

[831] I don't like that involved in food.

[832] Right.

[833] Like infidelity.

[834] Yeah.

[835] Oh, no, I cheated.

[836] I had a cookie.

[837] Like, no, you just had a cookie and that's fine.

[838] It's okay that you had a cookie.

[839] It's not going to ruin your whole life or your whole, you know, plan for hell.

[840] Well, intrinsic in the word cheating is also a moral.

[841] Failing.

[842] Yeah.

[843] Yeah.

[844] To feel.

[845] a moral because you ate a cookie is a little being a little rough on yourself yeah yeah I think people just though that like this is why I don't understand diet books or anything it's like you have a thing that works for you you're doing it and you're happy with what is the results yeah I have a thing that's working for me and I like never will they be the same I don't think yeah that's even like Charlie I look at how Charlie eats and then I look how Ryan eat everyone's doing it completely different of course and they're staying within some zone they're comfortable with yeah well yeah Some people, though, are doing it to an extent where it's not healthy for them.

[846] Physically.

[847] Yeah.

[848] Yeah, yeah.

[849] So that's the part I want to or try to eliminate as much as possible.

[850] But again, even within there, there's so many factors because it's like, is the person getting off on the aesthetic they're achieving, which could be unhealthy?

[851] Or are they getting off on the sense of control that they don't normally have that they're finally exhibiting?

[852] And that's like some weird confidence building.

[853] Yeah, but that's not healthy.

[854] Well, it can turn unhealthy really easily, but like there is a level of self -discipline that is very rewarding and is a virtue.

[855] And then it can tip just like everything else.

[856] Yeah.

[857] I still don't know why they can't make broccoli taste like Oreos.

[858] I think that would solve every problem on planet Earth.

[859] What I do think is true is you can learn to like something you din.

[860] I mean, not always, of course, but like vegetables, the more you eat them, the more you do crave them and why.

[861] want them.

[862] That just seems to be the reality.

[863] It's not like my body has always been like, I love the taste of broccoli.

[864] But over time, I have learned to love it.

[865] And it's the same with all the things with drinking.

[866] Oh, I guess big update.

[867] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[868] Yeah, I have drank.

[869] You've fallen off the wagon.

[870] I fell off the wagon.

[871] I drank in Hawaii.

[872] I think I did a nice job.

[873] Do you have thoughts on that?

[874] Zero.

[875] I drank every day.

[876] I drank.

[877] Every day we were there except the last day and in the morning every morning no i'm teasing oh come on that's what tells me that you really think i think you have a problem that you thought i thought you were drinking in the morning which of course i didn't think that well i don't know what you think uh i know i'm telling you what i think i don't think you have a drinking problem but listen also to be fair it's not completely out of the realm of possibility for me to have drank in the morning there like Mimosa or vacation.

[878] Bloody Mary.

[879] Exactly.

[880] I didn't, but I have many, many, many times.

[881] Maybe I'll come out of retirement for one week and show you what problem drinking is.

[882] No, thank you.

[883] My opinion of problem drinking is, I'm going to show you what I think it looks like.

[884] Well, when I got my first rose, it was the first day we were there, and I was really debating.

[885] And then I was like, I'll just get it.

[886] And then I'll decide.

[887] Yeah, this was kind of funny to watch.

[888] It was.

[889] Well, also because it was like last call.

[890] I just want to see it.

[891] Well, it was last call.

[892] And I was like, well, fuck.

[893] If I don't get it now, I can't have it.

[894] Now or never.

[895] It was now or never.

[896] So then it was now.

[897] I got it.

[898] And I, it sat there for a little bit.

[899] I kind of looked at it.

[900] I was like, do I want it?

[901] Do I really want this or not?

[902] Yeah.

[903] And then I had a sip of it.

[904] And then you know you want it.

[905] Then I was like, yep, I wanted it.

[906] Yes.

[907] And that is, so for me as an addict, I don't desire alcohol.

[908] Like I have been completely relieved of that obsession as the program promises.

[909] I don't think about it.

[910] I don't desire it.

[911] Yeah.

[912] And I know if I had a jack and diet, I would desire it in a way that is indescribable.

[913] Yeah.

[914] And that is so weird about the substance.

[915] It is weird.

[916] It is weird.

[917] You have a subjective relationship with it, whether you're on it or not.

[918] Totally.

[919] We would never look at Emily Burger and go like, do I want Emily Burger?

[920] Do I actually enjoy eating Emily Burger?

[921] No, I've actually now, since doing this experiment, that is honestly how I've been looking at everything.

[922] Oh.

[923] I drove by the Grove.

[924] And I was like, oh, I miss the Grove.

[925] And then I thought, do I?

[926] Right.

[927] Do I really miss that?

[928] Or do I miss the control of being able to get something I want in the moment?

[929] Do I miss having a place that I know is reliable?

[930] I can go and get like a little boost.

[931] Do you like the nostalgia of being in your 20s and having just move to California and going shopping with your girlfriends?

[932] Exactly.

[933] Is it that or do I like the grove?

[934] And that's what all of these things are.

[935] Yeah.

[936] And the alcohol has kind of really, I mean, I think I said this on that last race to 270.

[937] I was like, do I like anything?

[938] Really?

[939] Uh -huh.

[940] What do I like?

[941] Like, anyway, so I had a glass of wine that day and then I didn't have any more that day.

[942] I almost had one more glass and I didn't on purpose.

[943] And then there were other days I had a couple glasses each day.

[944] It was manageable.

[945] I really wanted one on the plane home.

[946] Did you get drunk at any point?

[947] Like an adult pool day or anything?

[948] Tipsy for sure.

[949] Not drunk.

[950] Okay.

[951] I don't know.

[952] Yeah.

[953] Definitely tipsy.

[954] but never drunk, never hungover.

[955] Oh, great.

[956] And then I really wanted one on the flight home, but I didn't, I asked and I couldn't have it.

[957] Ah.

[958] And then I didn't have it yesterday.

[959] I didn't have it the day we got home.

[960] The next day I didn't have it.

[961] So I feel like I'm in a good spot.

[962] I'm not like I'm going to drink tonight, which I always kind of.

[963] I'd just gotten such a habit.

[964] I think I've broken the habit a bit, for now anyway.

[965] Yeah.

[966] Which I think is good.

[967] Well, and I also, while there, fell off my 40 days of no vaping.

[968] I vape while I was there, but I'm proud to say I quit when I got home successfully.

[969] That was good.

[970] Yeah.

[971] It's kind of fun to do something naughty on vacation, though.

[972] No. I like it.

[973] I don't regret it.

[974] You don't have to regret it.

[975] I don't want you to regret it.

[976] But also vacation is like, I don't know.

[977] You know, what's the difference between me vaping and you having some drinks?

[978] Well, I'm going to drink again.

[979] Like, I'm drinking.

[980] I'm back to drinking.

[981] Right.

[982] That just was the time that I was coming back to it.

[983] It's not like I was like, I'm done drinking, but on vacation, I'm going to drink.

[984] For me, vacation isn't a break from all the things I should do.

[985] For me, it is.

[986] It's like a vacation is I don't have to work.

[987] I which is great and it's also a vacation from my constrictive life of how I eat and don't vape and don't do all these things I want to do yeah so for me it is kind of like a vacation from my control like oh I'm just gonna fucking do this uh and enjoy it without this voice in my head that goes you got to stop this isn't good for you long term which I acknowledge right but knowing that it's in a time capsule, I can enjoy it without the guilt of I got to quit this, because I know it's going to end.

[988] That makes sense.

[989] Yeah, so I like it.

[990] Speaking of vape, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

[991] What's the rate of smokers that eventually get lung cancer?

[992] About 10 to 15 % of smokers develop lung cancer, although they often die of other smoking -related causes like heart disease stroke or emphysema.

[993] Lung cancer is also known to kill people who never smoked or who gave up years ago.

[994] I don't know if I asked my dad if he was pissed, he had quit.

[995] Oh.

[996] Because I think I'd be pissed if I quit and got it anyways.

[997] Yeah.

[998] I don't know.

[999] Maybe it would have been much earlier, though.

[1000] If they could come up with a way to smoke where it wasn't damaging, I did enjoy that habit so much.

[1001] Oh, I loved it.

[1002] Yeah.

[1003] It's so ceremonial.

[1004] You do it at all these different times in the day.

[1005] It has some significance here or there.

[1006] It's a habit.

[1007] It's habitual, just like...

[1008] Okay, Vianetta.

[1009] Your ice cream.

[1010] Oof.

[1011] It's coming back slash is back.

[1012] Slash never went away.

[1013] I think you can get it in certain grocery stores in certain places.

[1014] You can go to goodhumor .com.

[1015] Type in your zip code.

[1016] See if you can get it.

[1017] And please do.

[1018] There's nothing better.

[1019] Not a sponsor.

[1020] Not a sponsor, but damn, I wish they were.

[1021] The crispy chocolate parts.

[1022] I can't think of that product without thinking of the, sterling silver.

[1023] Yes, plate that comes on.

[1024] Well, and they would cut it with this sterling silver.

[1025] Like knife cutter thing.

[1026] Yes, very classic.

[1027] It was like they were going to serve it to the queen.

[1028] Oh, my God, I just got, my mouth just started literally watering.

[1029] And when that would go through the Vionetta, they put in a nice fully sound of it hitting the plate.

[1030] But it was like the perfect sound of like, snap.

[1031] Ooh.

[1032] PQs?

[1033] Yeah.

[1034] Oh, wow.

[1035] Oh, wow.

[1036] The crunch layer was the best part.

[1037] There's layers that are hard shell chocolate.

[1038] Uh -huh.

[1039] I saw you look at your watch.

[1040] Well, I just want to make sure I wasn't fucking Carly over a big time.

[1041] Okay.

[1042] It just occurred.

[1043] Here's what happened.

[1044] I was like, this is so fun.

[1045] I like that sounds like, how dark is it?

[1046] Yeah.

[1047] Okay, Vianetta.

[1048] It's delicious.

[1049] Just eat.

[1050] Okay.

[1051] Does California have a burger bill?

[1052] What would that, would that tax?

[1053] Hamburgers or something, probably.

[1054] Probably.

[1055] Burger Bill?

[1056] Yeah, there's a restaurant.

[1057] Oh, I thought maybe a pervert popped up.

[1058] No, a nice guy.

[1059] I'm Burger Bill.

[1060] No, don't say that.

[1061] Yeah.

[1062] Come on over to my house and we'll have burgers.

[1063] That's the voice you do for your dad.

[1064] No, this is my dad.

[1065] This bitch came out of nowhere.

[1066] It's close.

[1067] Very close.

[1068] But this was, I'm Burger Bill.

[1069] Oh, okay, you're doing Kristen's stepdad.

[1070] No, Larry?

[1071] Yeah.

[1072] I can do Larry.

[1073] You ready?

[1074] I love food.

[1075] That's Larry.

[1076] Very, all three seem.

[1077] Is this the guy who likes horsepower?

[1078] I love food.

[1079] That's Larry.

[1080] And go back to the original Burger Bill.

[1081] Come in here and eat some hamburgers off my belly.

[1082] Okay, that's a little different.

[1083] There's Bill's burgers and Van Nuys.

[1084] Okay, this has nothing to do with the burger bill, but continue, continue.

[1085] Okay, go to Van Nuys for those burgers.

[1086] You could also probably type in hamburger tax.

[1087] Does California have a hamburger tax maybe?

[1088] Mrs. Padman?

[1089] Is this Mrs. Padman?

[1090] Yes.

[1091] Hi, this is hamburger tax.

[1092] I'm calling from...

[1093] I don't have time to talk.

[1094] Well, I do have an outrageous opportunity for you to prosper greatly if you can just give me 30 seconds of your time.

[1095] Okay, go ahead.

[1096] Okay, once again, my name is Hamburger Tax, and I'm calling from All State Opportunities.

[1097] Did you say Hamburger Dax?

[1098] No, my name is Hamburger Tax.

[1099] Hamburger Tax.

[1100] This reminds me Bree and I used to have a little love song.

[1101] We would sing to each other.

[1102] And it was the In -N -Out Burger commercial that really went, in and out that's what a hamburger's all about but we would sing it to each other that's what a hand in burgers all about and that's what made it a love song is just that we said hand in burger that's sweet there's this a new bipartisan bill requiring beef that's not derived from cows i .e. plant based beef like impossible burgers to be labeled imitation was proposed in Congress on Monday.

[1103] That's the fucking beef lobby trying to fuck over the other.

[1104] I don't know why people want to win playing dirty pool like that.

[1105] Yeah.

[1106] I'm like, have a fucking shootout.

[1107] See who's products best.

[1108] You fucking, like, you got to handicap your opponent.

[1109] It's silly.

[1110] I think the milk people did this too to like, you can't call soy milk, soy milk or almond milk, almond milk.

[1111] Or oat milk.

[1112] Or oat milk.

[1113] Wait, what?

[1114] you can call it that right no there's been all these different lawsuits to prevent them from calling it milk that milk can only be considered dairy oh ew yeah right that's dumb like you should be able to sell deodorant called old spice old spice cheeseburger you get you can have a deodorant called old spice cheeseburger and the in the in the fucking hamburger lobby's not going to sue old spice and say you can't call that cheeseburger it's confusing to people Yeah, this whole conversation got confusing It did I'm way out on my limb here But I'm trying to defend Startups, I guess New Meets New Meets Light Life They're fucking delicious I still eat normal hamburgers But I fucking love Lightlight's burgers They're delicious Yeah and beyond as well Yes, delicious Very good Very very good Incredibly good All right All right happy Gilmore Goodbye.

[1115] I love you.

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