Yusef Salaam & Ethan Herisse

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[3] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[4] I'm Dax Shepard.

[5] I'm joined by Monica Mose.

[6] Hello.

[7] We have two folks on today, which is always rare for us.

[8] Yeah, we're out of our comfort zone.

[9] We were, but it became comfortable.

[10] Yusuf Salam and Ethan Harisi.

[11] Now, Dr. Yusuf Salam is a member of the Exonerated Five.

[12] Previously known as the Central Park Five.

[13] Now known as the Exonerated Five.

[14] He's an award -winning, motivational, and transformational speaker, a thought leader, a trainer, and a New York Times best -selling author and coach.

[15] And Ethan is an actor who played Yusuf in Netflix's great, great film that everyone should watch when they see us.

[16] Youssef has a new book out right now called Better Not Bitter.

[17] Everyone should check that out.

[18] This was very inspiring for us because he's in a position that almost no one is in to have been imprisoned for seven years and for something he did not do and then get exonerated.

[19] Such an inspiring story.

[20] Yeah, the triumph of will is kind of unparalleled.

[21] Incredible story.

[22] I hope everyone checks out Better Not Bitter.

[23] Please enjoy Yusuf Salam and Ethan Harisi.

[24] On these episodes, we like to highlight some black -owned businesses.

[25] I want to talk about Konda Chocolate.

[26] Konda Chocolate is black -owned and female -owned, which I love.

[27] And you know I love chocolate.

[28] Oh, yeah.

[29] You're a sucker for it.

[30] I really am.

[31] You crave it.

[32] I crave it.

[33] And I like having some chocolate bars at my house for pre -night sweetness.

[34] Oh, pre -night sweetness.

[35] Like pre -bed.

[36] Okay.

[37] I like to chomp on some chocolate before bed.

[38] A night chalk cap.

[39] Exactly.

[40] And Kanda has lots of amazing flavors and my favorite is dark chocolate, obviously.

[41] And it's from Ghana.

[42] The cocoa is from Ghana.

[43] Oh, it is?

[44] Yes, it's awesome.

[45] So please check out Kanda chocolate.

[46] That's Kanda chocolate, K -A -N -D -A.

[47] And I want people who love barbecue to check out Char Boys.

[48] Char Boys delivers the bold taste we all crave with barbecue, but also manages to cut back on the sodium.

[49] sugar found in large quantities at most major brands.

[50] That's the thing.

[51] Yeah.

[52] You love barbecue.

[53] So it's so good.

[54] And then you look at the back and like, ooh.

[55] Yeah, it's a lot.

[56] Not with Char Boys.

[57] Enjoy Char Boys.

[58] He's an object.

[59] Where are you at you, sir?

[60] I'm down in Atlanta.

[61] Well, the Atlanta area.

[62] We're dealing with that gas issue.

[63] That's real over there, huh?

[64] Gas shortage?

[65] Well, it is, but it's crazy because we were in New York, my wife and I and the family.

[66] We came back and we were like, thank God we filled up all the car.

[67] Wow.

[68] Really?

[69] We had already had gas, so that worked out for us.

[70] There's like the 70s replaying themselves.

[71] When you see movies set in the 70s and there's these half -mile lines to get gas, you think, well, that would be impossible in this country.

[72] Absolutely.

[73] And here we go.

[74] Just like a pandemic would be impossible.

[75] Well, here it is.

[76] Here it is.

[77] Everything we thought was going to be impossible is turning out to be possible.

[78] Yeah.

[79] And Ethan, where are you at?

[80] You in L .A.?

[81] Yeah, I'm in California.

[82] I'm actually in Irvine.

[83] I go to school at UC Irvine, so I'm in my college apartment, just chilling.

[84] Oh, wow.

[85] Hold on a second.

[86] This is adorable.

[87] You're in college, but you're a working actor.

[88] Who would have the integrity to not choose acting over an education?

[89] This is startling.

[90] Oh, I mean, yeah, I've been doing both.

[91] I've been doing both.

[92] I've been doing both ever since I moved to California, so just kept it up through college, and I'm still doing it.

[93] It's going well so far.

[94] So what are you majoring in?

[95] Oh, fuck that.

[96] That is so impressive.

[97] Yeah.

[98] I just transferred into chemistry this year.

[99] Yeah.

[100] What's the anatomical weight of uranium?

[101] I have not explored that deep.

[102] I'm in L -Chem working with carbon, nitrogen, oxygen.

[103] Oh, yeah.

[104] That's where I'm at.

[105] Okay.

[106] That's supposed to be so hard, yeah.

[107] Organic chemistry.

[108] That's the one that, like, gets people, out of med school.

[109] They're like, I took organic chem and I was like, no, I'm gone.

[110] That's what I've heard.

[111] Yeah.

[112] They say this series is going to make or break it, but I'm ready.

[113] It's going.

[114] I'm chilling so far.

[115] Now, if you experienced at all, there seems to be consensus around this.

[116] Like, I want to say Michelle Obama even wrote about it in her book, where a lot of black students who are in route to a medical degree get strongly encouraged by counselors and advisors to not do it.

[117] Have you heard of this phenomenon?

[118] Has it happened to you?

[119] I have not heard this, and I also, I haven't experienced it either.

[120] No one's discouraged me. UCI is good on that, thankfully.

[121] I'm wondering if that's before they get to college.

[122] Possibly.

[123] If students are like exploring the possibilities of what to go into, when you said that the immediate thought that came to mind was what Malcolm X was discouraged to become as a child when they ask them, hey, what do you want to be?

[124] And when you think about systemic racism, oppression, all of that stuff, a lot of it has nothing to do with physical fighting, but has everything to do with what happens mentally to get you to accept whatever definition they are trying to put upon you.

[125] What did he originally want to be?

[126] I don't remember exactly, but I think it might have been a lawyer or something like that.

[127] No, you would have been a good lawyer.

[128] Yeah.

[129] But it's one of those things where you say yourself, damn.

[130] You know, when I went to college after I came home from prison, I bumped into master teachers.

[131] My most impactful teacher was a student of Dr. John Henry Clark.

[132] And I think Dr. John Henry Clark is self -taught.

[133] You know, the fact that he was Professor Emeritus at Hunter College and he had people under him who were not self -taught.

[134] I had to go to school to get educated.

[135] They're getting their education in addition to what they had.

[136] under him.

[137] So with regards to master teachers, what I found was that in educational environments that are breeding grounds for success, they have specific things, right?

[138] You know, the students to teacher ratio is a balance that you find in a lot of private schools, but in public schools, you don't find that.

[139] So a lot of people fall through the cracks.

[140] But with the master teachers, they then get the opportunity to look at the child and see the child's gifts that they're exhibiting.

[141] And they begin to teach that child based on the gifts, right?

[142] And so in other words, if a child is drawing a circle, but the circle is not an exact circle ratio wise, they might be the next Baskiat.

[143] This phenomenal thing, you know, the master's teacher then does that.

[144] But unfortunately, we also have, because of oppression and racism, the exact opposite happening where we have people who are supposed to be master teachers who sometimes that phenomenon where they discourage students from becoming their best, right?

[145] Because what happened in all of our lives is that the people who have been the most oppressed, as they realize some of their dreams and aspirations, they begin to teach others that it's possible.

[146] But if they never realize those dreams and aspirations, no one knows that my family is going to produce the first millionaire, the first billionaire, the first trillionaire.

[147] It's interesting.

[148] There's so many different versions of it.

[149] One could just be abject racism.

[150] One could be they're looking at the numbers above them.

[151] So, oh, black folks are so underrepresented in STEM studies, whether they're malicious or not, oh, they don't either thrive there.

[152] They're not drawn to it.

[153] So I have this burgeoning student.

[154] Oh, generally black folks do better in law school.

[155] I mean, it's terrible, but also we constantly talk about the water you're swimming in.

[156] So every single person's swimming in the water and no one really knows how the fuck you get here where black folks are underrepresented in STEM studies.

[157] So you're on your own to figure that out and people are coming to wrong conclusions and they have it backwards.

[158] It's all worthy of examination now.

[159] It's funny you brought up Malcolm X. I listened to some of his speeches recently and oh my God, was he on message for what we've just now come to accept.

[160] Like, I was really blown away.

[161] Because, of course, he's an archetype if you grew up in the 80s.

[162] Like, I think you and I are roughly the same age.

[163] I was born in 75.

[164] Were you born in 74?

[165] Yeah.

[166] So Malcolm X, for me, was like counter -revolutionist.

[167] He was the voice of a militant movement.

[168] He was definitely painted as someone that was almost the antithesis of Martin Luther King, right?

[169] And so we all love Martin Luther King.

[170] So, of course, this guy just gets positioned in this storybook of the opposite, right?

[171] Listening to him talk about generational wealth, owning property, all these things now that are really, really ubiquitous, and we seem to understand them, man. He was saying that 50 years ago to the exact message.

[172] And I was like, oh, wow, that's something to think about.

[173] Yeah.

[174] And this is the unfortunate part of history that once you realize what happened, you realize how you were misttaught.

[175] So the miseducation of the Negro by Dr. Carter G. Woodson becomes impactful.

[176] And then the education of the new world by Dr. Carter G. Woodson becomes impactful as well, right?

[177] But you realize that here's a person talking about something.

[178] And you just said, if we took Malcolm and transposed him right in today's time, it would be like, perfect.

[179] Wow.

[180] He'd have an average message, not an extraordinary message.

[181] Yeah, he would have like an on point message.

[182] And I think that's really interesting and important too.

[183] You know, when people ask me, have we, made any progress.

[184] In many ways we have made progress, but we have been playing the tango.

[185] So we've been two steps forward, one step back.

[186] Sometimes it's a balanced tango dance, right?

[187] And then when you think about examples like Tulsa, Oklahoma, you realize that here's a people who, for all intents and purposes, were able to raise themselves out of everything that was heaped upon them by their own bootstraps.

[188] And you take Dr. Martin Luther King's statement that says, you know, when people say pull yourselves up or lift yourselves up by your bootstraps, he said, that's cruel to tell that to a bootless man. Yeah, yeah.

[189] Or how about if lifting yourself up through great effort brings you to where everyone else started?

[190] Like what if your lifetime of lifting yourself up literally just gets you to neutral?

[191] We ain't all getting lift up from the same life.

[192] This is part of That part that you just said is why I truly believe when you think about what Dr. John Henry Clark said, where he said, to begin a people's history with slavery, makes everything else look like progress.

[193] On the flip side, imagine a people who had never had this happen to them.

[194] They would be exactly where everyone is at.

[195] So the standard would be already there.

[196] Now you have a people who had this horrible history happened to them.

[197] And in spite of it all, are still making strides.

[198] The person like Barack Obama, he then really signifies not an anomaly, but a norm.

[199] But he's presented as the anomaly, right?

[200] The only person who was able to rise up the ladder to become this mythical person, the black president of the United States of America, did two terms, you know, was graceful about it.

[201] Just all of this stuff.

[202] And it's like, man. He made it look simple.

[203] He made it look easy.

[204] He did, he did.

[205] I hope this doesn't make you uncomfortable, Ethan, but you're so fucking cute.

[206] Oh, my God.

[207] Everyone must be in love with you at this college.

[208] Look how that's so sweet.

[209] Wow, all right.

[210] My day's just getting better and better.

[211] I'm on armchair expert.

[212] Dad Shepard just called me cute.

[213] This is a, wow.

[214] It's just a good day.

[215] Oh, man. I could listen to you to speak all day, man. We filmed when they see us in 2018 and, like, did all the press and everything.

[216] I still, like, find myself when he speaks.

[217] I'm just, like, mouth open, like, just staring and listening.

[218] Where are you from originally, Ethan?

[219] I was raised in Massachusetts.

[220] I lived there until 2012, and that's when I moved out to California.

[221] And the move to California was motivated by what?

[222] By me wanting to pursue a career in acting.

[223] Oh, then so what I know is that you have some adoring parents, right?

[224] Yeah, I mean, I owe them.

[225] everything.

[226] We left our house.

[227] Our whole family lived in Massachusetts or like Virginia or Florida, which is much closer.

[228] And where in California did you guys move to, Irvine?

[229] No, no, no, in L .A. The thing is, I've been back to Massachusetts a few times, like, as a family and other things.

[230] And although, like, that place has my heart and, like, my family's there, I don't think I want to leave California.

[231] I really do love it here.

[232] Yeah.

[233] My heart is in Michigan, but yeah, I could never ever go back to living in nine months of gray and cold.

[234] Right.

[235] I'm just going to do it.

[236] Life is short.

[237] I want to be warm.

[238] Yeah.

[239] I feel it.

[240] I feel that.

[241] Okay, so you guys have a unique relationship.

[242] So you get brought together, of course, because Yusuf, you were one of the Central Park 5, which I'll give a brief recounting of in case for anyone that might not have seen when they see us.

[243] One of these very extraordinary heartbreaking cases of wrongful conviction.

[244] uniquely monstrous because it's all children who get sent to prison.

[245] I mean, it's just one of the worst miscarriages that we know of.

[246] A movie was made about it when they see us.

[247] And then Ethan, you came in to play young Yusuf.

[248] And then you guys clearly have become friends.

[249] How did that happen?

[250] Man, I felt like the connection was established almost immediately.

[251] After I settled and was no longer starstruck, like after meeting him.

[252] And, like, I was able to, like, start talking to him and interacting with him.

[253] Or I was like, this is just a really, like, great, wise man. Like, you know, from then on, it was just he's kept in contact with me. I kept in contact with him.

[254] He was kind enough to invite me over to help promote his new book and all of this.

[255] And I'm very thankful for that, the friendship that we've made.

[256] And you narrated the last book, right, punching the air?

[257] Punching there, yeah.

[258] That was awesome.

[259] When I got that offer, I was.

[260] I was like, no way, man. I was so, so excited that he wanted me to do it.

[261] And then after it was all said and done, he listened to it.

[262] He reached it again and said it was great.

[263] And I was like, that's all I need.

[264] Like, you love it.

[265] That's all I need.

[266] You're good looking, but he is way cuter than you ever were.

[267] Like, you did it.

[268] I'd be like, if I was going to have someone that's like, just always like 30 years behind me playing me, you did well.

[269] I need to find someone like that.

[270] Oh, my goodness.

[271] He's such an amazing guy.

[272] And that's the part that I look back at what we were being presented with when Ava DuVinay was asking us initially, who do we want to play the part?

[273] Do we want somebody who looks like us or who can act?

[274] And I think one of the things that becomes like defining moments is when you have both, right?

[275] Uh -huh.

[276] He definitely represents what I would look like, even now, right?

[277] It's like, you know, the flat top and all of that stuff.

[278] But what was really interesting as well was even, him reading the book.

[279] I remember when I first was asked to narrate my book, my memoir.

[280] It was one of those things that when I thought about narrating, punching the air, I didn't want to do it.

[281] I was like, no, I'm nervous about doing that.

[282] Yeah.

[283] And I listened all the time to audiobooks.

[284] And so I listened to punching the air.

[285] And I tend to listen to audio books at like maybe three, four times to speed.

[286] Oh, wow.

[287] That's so fast.

[288] Let me tell you something.

[289] I have to slow, this down because I was blown away.

[290] I was like, wait, hold on.

[291] What people tell me when I'm on stage about being enthralled with the way that I'm presenting this story, right?

[292] It's this kind of out -of -body experience where I can really dive deep and really explain and expound upon what happened to us as the members of the then -known Central Park Five.

[293] I heard that same depth in Ethan's narration in punching the air, captivating.

[294] I mean, it was a lot.

[295] I mean, it was It was like, whoa, I can't listen to this at three times to speak.

[296] Uh -huh.

[297] He brought me into the story in a whole new way.

[298] You know, I was excited to listen to it.

[299] You know what I was like?

[300] Well, when you get a blizzard, you get the perfect blizzard from Dairy Queen.

[301] You don't pound it.

[302] Savor it.

[303] One bite at a time.

[304] Exactly.

[305] Exactly.

[306] The only reason why I listen to audio books at two to three times to speak, sometimes even faster than that, is because there's a scene in when they see us.

[307] My older character meets Kevin Richardson's older character, and there's a dialogue that's happening.

[308] And in the dialogue, we're talking about work and how it's difficult to get work.

[309] And, of course, this is kind of really expounded upon with Raymond Santana's story because he gets locked back up by making the wrong decision.

[310] But we're talking about that, and he's like, you know, how's everything going?

[311] And I'm like, oh, I'm working.

[312] He's like, how did you get a job?

[313] And I like, I lied on my application.

[314] Right, yeah, of course.

[315] It's because I had this technology.

[316] And I knew that if I could learn enough, then as soon as I got my foot in the door, I can prove that I'm supposed to be here.

[317] Right.

[318] And that's what I was doing.

[319] So I lied on the application in terms of having the history of being able to do the work, but not in terms of being really truly able to do the work, because I have been doing this work since I was a child.

[320] Now, for people who don't know the story, a condensed version is simply there were many kids.

[321] running around Central Park, having a good time, 14 to 20 years old, I don't know how many were involved.

[322] Independently of that, a woman had been raped in Central Park.

[323] And then the police became convinced that you and four others were responsible for that rape.

[324] They coerced confessions that were not true.

[325] They didn't match up in any which way.

[326] No one had the same information, but they somehow tried to weave this together.

[327] there was laughable quote forensic evidence about a hair looking like someone's hair no DNA and then everyone got sentenced you were in for six years eight months some guys were in longer and then in 2002 maybe the real rapist admitted to having raped the woman and everyone was exonerated at that point so in terms of your resume now no one would have to put felon would they?

[328] Like, once it's exonerated, then that's, you're no longer a felon.

[329] Well, you weren't ever one.

[330] No, but that's, but technically if you're the employer and you look up and he's been a, but yes.

[331] Yeah, I mean, to your point, there was a time where when I first came home from prison, on most job applications, it said very clearly, have you been convicted of a crime within the past seven years?

[332] So the six years and eight months that I was in there for, I was waiting until that seven -year mark.

[333] So once the seven -year mark hit, I could finally say no. Okay.

[334] Now, what happened, which was very, very interesting, was they then removed the time limitation and said, have you ever been convicted of a crime within the past seven years?

[335] You know, in small print, this will not hinder your chances of employment with us.

[336] The only thing that was missing was the modern -day wink emoji.

[337] That's it.

[338] But the great thing about finally being exonerated is that we have everything restored, right?

[339] We had to fight to get that restoration, though.

[340] So it wasn't like they said, okay, now you're exonerated.

[341] We're going to remove your names from the criminal database.

[342] We have to literally fight to get our names removed from those databases.

[343] The problem with modern technology is, and I tell my chosen this all the time, Ethan probably knows this.

[344] better than anyone.

[345] When people go for jobs, they are no longer looking at LexisNexis.

[346] They're looking at your social media.

[347] So they're Googling you.

[348] They're doing all kinds of stuff.

[349] They're doing deep dive background checks because social media now, for a lot of people, is the truth.

[350] Yeah.

[351] And so even with the now exonerated five, our story becomes that much more impactful because when they see us, gave it new life.

[352] And with the young portrayals of us, which, was missing from the way we told our story.

[353] Young people telling our story gave the world a true insight into how devastating this was.

[354] That it wasn't just five individuals, but it was their families.

[355] It was their communities that this system ran over.

[356] Yeah.

[357] But all of that stuff gets restored in a very powerful way.

[358] And now we're celebrated.

[359] And it's weird because a lot of times my children might be with me in an airport or walking down 120th Street or something like that and they have to leave me because I will get stopped I will get asked to take pictures and I'm just the kind of guy that will stop and take photos with everyone well I don't know that anyone's well certainly other examples exist but what a rare life experience to be famous for the worst thing possible yeah and then famous for the best like you have experienced both ends of this crazy spectrum in a way that nearly nobody ever does there's no way at the the nadir of that experience were and I was debating whether I would say this or not we try to stay apolitical but the fact that fucking Trump took out full page ads saying convict these guys his own money he's not a DA he's not law enforcement he decides to take out full page ads saying throw the book at these guys that that existed and then when they see us exists in your lifetime is is really wild what a difference you must think you're are you simulation?

[360] I got to tell you.

[361] So when I tell my story, I get the opportunity to have outer body experiences, right?

[362] Dr. Maya Angelou said, you should be angry, but you must not be bitter.

[363] And she said, bitterness is like a cancer.

[364] It eats upon the host.

[365] It doesn't do anything to the object of its displeasure.

[366] And then she teaches us the alchemy, like how we all can become alchemist.

[367] She says, so use that anger.

[368] You dance it.

[369] You march it.

[370] You voted.

[371] She said you do everything about it.

[372] And then she said, you talk it.

[373] So for me, to tell my story in all of the erations is so powerful.

[374] And then at the same time, I've had this opportunity to reexamine my case and even the case of all of us.

[375] This is a beautiful story.

[376] As if there could be any beauty in the story.

[377] This is a very beautiful story.

[378] This is a story when you look back, you see that we survived.

[379] And then you also see that we were vilified in the worst way possible.

[380] But 13 years later, and really, in fact, 30 years later because of when they see us, this story now can be understood.

[381] And I talk about that in my book, Better Not Bitter.

[382] This story can now be understood as a love story between God and his people.

[383] This story and the case itself is a case that in modern times, God is used.

[384] to put the whole system on trial in order to produce a miracle in modern times.

[385] But it's also a story to tell people that you too could be buried alive and forgotten.

[386] The system will forget that your seeds.

[387] And instead of a social death, here you are.

[388] They built this fire to consume you.

[389] But they forgot that the creator, like real fire, the creator is the owner of heat.

[390] And so we emerge in this miraculous way, like modern -day Shadrach, Mishak, and Abindigo.

[391] This story is a really, really powerful story when you look at it from their vantage point.

[392] Because most of us are not bitter.

[393] Most of us are not angry.

[394] We're using this platform that the system gave us.

[395] And we're trying to make positive impact and positive change.

[396] We're not just saying we don't want to ever see another Central Park Five.

[397] We're also now telling people what's possible that you can be knocked out dead in life and be given new life.

[398] Yeah, yeah, you can rise from the most improbable pain and suffering.

[399] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[400] In The Me You Can't See, my news series co -created with Prince Harry, we guide conversations about mental health with stories from Lady Gaga, DeMar de Rosen, people from around the world, including me, Oprah Winfrey.

[401] Our hope is that when you hear these stories, it allows you to not only see us differently, but see yourself differently, and realize that no matter what you're going through, you're not alone.

[402] It's a conversation on mental health you don't want to miss. Watch the me you can't see on Apple TV Plus.

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[423] When I was thinking about your experience and the one thing I thought of immediately is your mother, I was just thinking if I had to watch one of my daughters go to prison for something she had not done, it would be by far the hardest thing to witness in ways worse than death because, she'd be sitting in there living in a world that I lied to her about, that I told her, no, we live in a world where there's justice, we live in a world where your peers will presume you're innocent.

[424] And if she was in there and everything I told her was a lot, the personal pain it would cause me. I just can't imagine what it did to your mother.

[425] Yeah.

[426] Fortunately, my mother had been telling me that she was raised in the Jim Crow South.

[427] I was the one that didn't understand what she was trying to teach me. And so in many ways, I call her my modern day Harriet Tubman because in many ways, you know, Harriet Tubman is quoted to have said that she freed X amount of hundreds of thousands of slaves and she would have freed more had they only known that they were in slavery.

[428] Here I was experiencing what I thought was the American dream.

[429] And my mother was trying to tell me that what you're experiencing is not real.

[430] And she was trying to shield me from ever having woken up to what Malcolm X would call the American nightmare.

[431] And unfortunately, at 15 years of age, I was woken up to the American nightmare.

[432] My whole family was.

[433] She's still here with us.

[434] And my mother is a stage four cancer survivor three times.

[435] Holy.

[436] Jeez.

[437] But I think about what happened with us and the internalization of all of the terrible things.

[438] My mother said, she truly believes that metabolism.

[439] anesthetized into the cancer that she began to have.

[440] And it wasn't until she went back to Eden and healed herself that she was able to rid herself from that cancer.

[441] It's awful to deep dive into a story like this because on the one hand, you see me and you say, wow, this guy is happy, he's not angry, he's not bitter, he's successful, there's a lot of things happening for him.

[442] He has 10 children, just jokingly say, well, you know, I was making.

[443] Speaking up for lost time.

[444] Yeah, yeah.

[445] Who just blew my mind when you said 10 kids?

[446] I got two and that's one too many, I think.

[447] I've heard him say it numerous times.

[448] I know he has 10 kids.

[449] Still.

[450] I tell you, one of those things that you realized that it wasn't just something that impacted us.

[451] I often say that the criminal legal system, it pulls at the fabric of the fiber of community and family.

[452] My mother being a seamstress and being a fashion designer, she used to always tell me, don't pull at a string that you see coming out of the fabric.

[453] Just take a scissor and clip it.

[454] Because once you pull it, you begin to unravel everything that is holding it together.

[455] And so in my story, you have the Salam family who's a representation in community of other community members who've also had the fabric of their families be pulled.

[456] And in that community, which is a representation of the nation, we have so many whole, so many people who have been run over by the spike wheels of justice, trying to make something of themselves.

[457] Most people don't have a nice ending to their story.

[458] No. How did you manage to serve almost seven years in prison at a young age and stay the person you are?

[459] Or to what degree did it change you?

[460] and how did you not succumb to what happens to many people, which is they go in at, let's say, two out of ten as a criminal, and they come out as a four out of ten as a criminal.

[461] It doesn't make people better.

[462] It generally makes them worse.

[463] So how did you stay the course throughout that journey?

[464] I touched on this.

[465] When you look at when they see us now, when we were sitting with Oprah Winfrey, and she turned to me and she said, Yusuf, how did you get through it?

[466] And I didn't go into depth, but I said, I meditated.

[467] And that's one of the most simple truths about my story.

[468] I found out that through meditation, later on, my good friend Les Brown, he said, the imagination is the precursor of what's to come.

[469] So if you can imagine, if you can meditate, if you could daydream, but you can actively daydream and participate in that meditation, just like college students who happen to be struggling, if they visualize themselves in the future, taking that tassel and moving it from one side of the hat to the next.

[470] And you marry that vision with what you imagine it to feel like to be celebrated by friends, by family, in a space where everyone is like, I knew you could do it.

[471] That's a great feeling.

[472] If you can have such a good vision of that and you marry that vision with so many emotions, you now have uncovered the law of attraction.

[473] And so for me, I found this out in prison.

[474] I was being taught about yoga.

[475] I was being taught about meditation.

[476] I was being taught all of these things.

[477] And I was able to visualize myself getting out of prison.

[478] I found out that wherever your mind goes, your body follows.

[479] And so if you're having a horrible time, you can liberate yourself from the bondage, holding you into whatever prison it is by meditating, by visualizing.

[480] And then write it down.

[481] I didn't always write words, but I wrote poems or I drew or, I, I painted.

[482] I did all of these things that captured the emotional trauma of the moment, but also gave it a window to escape.

[483] Did being that person who meditated and was thoughtful and painted and drew make you more vulnerable?

[484] It almost seemed anti -survivalist to be adjusted there.

[485] So part of the trick is this.

[486] It's all happening inside of your own self.

[487] outside of yourself you're preparing for the worse you're meditating as you're walking down a corridor towards the mess hall and murderers are looking at you rapists are looking at you killers are looking at you and you're meditating and you're letting them know and i can only explain it this way when i was working at new york presbyterian hospital this interesting phenomenon happened every single day of the work week I would get out of work, go to the train station, get on the train, go uptown.

[488] As soon as I hit 135th Street, because I lived on 138th Street at the time, I would walk upstairs.

[489] And as soon as I touched the top stair, I started to bop a little bit more.

[490] I didn't actively do this.

[491] It wasn't like a conscious thing, but when I look back at it, I said, oh, shucks, this is kind of interesting.

[492] It was almost as if I was telling people that this suit that I was wearing is just, the costume.

[493] Yeah.

[494] You're putting the shield up.

[495] Yeah.

[496] And so in prison, you do the same thing.

[497] It's just that in your safe space of being in a cell, now you can relax.

[498] But when you're out there in the rest of community, like I learned martial arts.

[499] So I was learning about Tai Chi.

[500] And so here I am in the corner doing movements looking like what back then would be representative of Channel 5 Kung Fu movies.

[501] Yeah, yeah, Bruce Lee.

[502] And they're like, this guy is not playing.

[503] This guy is not, like he's not acting like he knows how to do.

[504] This guy knows how to do something.

[505] Like I had one fight in prison.

[506] Well, I was assaulted.

[507] Somebody punched me when I wasn't looking.

[508] But outside of that, I had one fight.

[509] And it wasn't a fight where I beat the guy up or anything like that because we were taught in martial arts not to hurt people.

[510] We would talk to heal people.

[511] But it was one of those things where you're like deflecting blows and you're moving in such a way and they're like, oh, this guy, he knows what he's doing.

[512] Let me leave this guy alone.

[513] So it was beautiful because then when you got the opportunity to bring your art board out into the day room and people saw what you were doing, they were like, this is a modern day Van Gogh.

[514] This wasn't like, let's rip up his artwork.

[515] This was like, wow, they were mesmerized by it.

[516] There's a film that I love called Slam where Saul Williams, he's in the yard and all of a sudden he's about to get assaulted.

[517] And then he just begins to do poetry.

[518] And people are so captivated by his artistry that they stop.

[519] And they're in the moment of appreciating him.

[520] And then when he finishes, they're like, was we about to do something?

[521] And it's one of the most beautiful things that in that truth of who you are, of what you're, supposed to be about if you know who you are and you come into a situation knowing who you are you will never be denied but if you try to be fake in whatever space you will be challenged there will be hardships that are different than the hardships that you would just normally go through because of the struggle of trying to break out of the gravitational pull of everything negative man i do not want to sound like i'm comparing myself to have gone to prison for six years but i do want to say when you're saying this i just had this experience like three weeks ago i've lived in l a 26 years i was in seattle still very quarantined the only people out are punching the air they're screaming obscenities i'm taking walks and it didn't the same thing it didn't occur to me to i got back to my hotel after taking a few of these walks where i was like oh i've got my whole Detroit presence on like when I lived downtown when I lived in Dearborn like I had a thing right and the look in the eyes was like we're cool until we're not cool you're gonna have your hands full that's what I'm telling everyone I look in the eyes and I was disappointed in myself like I got back to my room and I thought man even with all the gifts I've been given the benevolence I couldn't be the person that looked at those people I was nervous unpredictable shit's about to happen I couldn't be the one to send such a fucking light beam out at them that I go first with kind I had to resort to you'll have your hands full.

[522] I just remember thinking like I'm bummed.

[523] I'm bummed that I haven't transcended that or that I can't overpower it the other way, that I still am in a, I don't know what you're about to do and I want you to know you shouldn't assume what I'm going to do.

[524] Roll and it's a bummer.

[525] I'll tell you what, which is cool.

[526] So that happens to me all the time.

[527] And I call it PTSD.

[528] It's the trauma of living life in the condition that you've lived it, right?

[529] And so in the black and brown communities, we have this thing where we're hypervigilant all the time.

[530] And that's a problem.

[531] That's one of those things where you're like, how can you live comfortably when you're hypervigilant?

[532] Yeah.

[533] But we've taken that abnormality and made it normal.

[534] The cool thing about it is this.

[535] Once you recognize it, then you can change it.

[536] And so there would be moments where I had to tell myself, smile.

[537] And really smile with your eyes, right?

[538] Because you can smile and it just be a facade.

[539] Smile with your eyes.

[540] You're really smiling.

[541] Try to tap more into that human side of everything that we're supposed to be.

[542] Because like what you're talking about with every space that's a known place in America, New Yorkers, if you're not from New York, you get turned into a New Yorker.

[543] Yeah.

[544] Yeah.

[545] And there's a problem with being turned into a New Yorker because it's the concrete.

[546] jungle.

[547] It's the, if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere.

[548] And why is that?

[549] It's because of the rigors of the challenge of life in a space like that.

[550] Yeah.

[551] Right.

[552] And like I said, that's the same thing for every known place in America, really every known place in the world.

[553] But I think that once you see it, then you can say to yourself, I have to do something about this.

[554] Yeah.

[555] And I had this huge talk with myself afterwards.

[556] I was like, okay, so let's start from square one.

[557] Why are you doing that?

[558] Well, I'm afraid that someone's going to presume they can take advantage of me. Okay, so what does that mean?

[559] They're going to attack me physically.

[560] I'm going to fight back.

[561] So what I'm going to instead do is tell them I'm ready to fight back.

[562] Okay.

[563] And then as I worked through, I was like, so what I could do is smile and be lovely.

[564] And if they try to take advantage of me, I'm in the same position I already was in.

[565] And it's time to get down.

[566] That doesn't change.

[567] Like, I can tell myself, hey, you can defend yourself, but you don't have to wear the mask.

[568] Like you're still free.

[569] You're not surrendering to be a victim.

[570] You're surrendering to being the one that goes first, who tries to be kind first, knowing you're not giving up your right to be subjugated by a stranger or giving permission to be.

[571] But man, what a racket.

[572] It's such a racket.

[573] So we talk to a lot of really interesting, smart people about what the current life is.

[574] As you said, you know, when you start with slavery, everything looks like progress.

[575] Another, like an analogy I'd give is like, yeah, if you go to the peak of Mount Everest and someone's dying of oxygen deprivation and you take them down to 27 ,000 feet, it got better.

[576] But there still ain't enough oxygen at 27 ,000 feet.

[577] You can take them down to Base Camp 3.

[578] It feels better, but still not enough oxygen for anyone.

[579] To get to everyone's got full oxygen, it's just a long road.

[580] So what I'm curious about is we, I mean, again, the most heartbreaking fashion that, total bias of the judicial system, which I think hopefully we're all starting to acknowledge and we're starting to acknowledge some things.

[581] I guess the question is like, how do we change it?

[582] Like, okay, we've acknowledged the problem.

[583] It's like, I admit I'm an alcoholic.

[584] Now, what do we do?

[585] Where do we go?

[586] What are the steps we take?

[587] I feel like we're at that place where it's like someone's got to be brave and stand up and go, look, this might be flawed, but here's a plan.

[588] And I'm just curious what you think are some of the steps we can take.

[589] It doesn't feel right to ask you, the victim of it, to tell me the solution of it, but I do want your opinion on it.

[590] The way that I approach life now in a question like that is understanding and knowing that we were all born on purpose and we all have a purpose.

[591] You think about some of the concepts that have been presented by scientists or people in that space, and they talk about things like there are too many people in the world.

[592] We have to have population control.

[593] So this is actively happening in places in the world right now.

[594] But what if we begin to think from the perspective of the law of abundance?

[595] Now we have the opportunity to understand that we don't need the caste systems that we have placed around the world where some people have and some people don't have.

[596] People are relegated to modern day slavery through the 13th Amendment as an example.

[597] All of the other ills that happen.

[598] I think that what is the most truthful thing about life is that there is never not enough.

[599] We make things appear to be that.

[600] And so therefore, we have to hoard our money.

[601] We have to, in different parts of the world, we have to hoard our gas.

[602] When the pandemic first happened, people were hoarding toilet tissue.

[603] So you would go to the grocery store.

[604] You couldn't find any toilet tissue.

[605] It was one of the most interesting phenomenons.

[606] But imagine the law of abundance that says, because of the grace, that I know is afforded all of us, we will have enough.

[607] And if we don't have enough, guess what?

[608] If I knock on my neighbor's door and I explain to them the situation, they'll probably help me out.

[609] It's a weird type of thing, but I think that it almost causes us to, especially in this pandemic time, it causes us to re -examine what's important in life.

[610] What was important the day before the pandemic?

[611] Here we are.

[612] We're deep into social distancing, quarantining, now trying to figure out how we can get vaccinated so that we can resume life.

[613] But everything that was important, the day before it hit the fan, most of those things aren't important anymore.

[614] But if you think about what you're saying and you put it into the context of what Malcolm X said, where black and brown people have had a knife stuck in.

[615] their back.

[616] Taking the knife out six inches does nothing to help the people.

[617] And he says this very eloquently.

[618] It's about removing the knife altogether and addressing the wound and fixing the wound.

[619] And I think that when we look at a lot of the social ills that we're experiencing, a lot of this stuff can be fixed tomorrow.

[620] We can fix things like homelessness tomorrow with habitat for humanity as an example.

[621] You know, I just saw this post and I'm not sure.

[622] if it's true or not, but if it is true, I think it's the most noble thing.

[623] You have Will Smith's son who's creating a 24 -hour restaurant for homeless people to eat for free.

[624] Brilliant.

[625] People who have can give back in such a way that impacts people in a very, very noble way.

[626] And that's the type of stuff that we need to be looking at, to be about.

[627] And it also causes us to be more human.

[628] We feel good about it.

[629] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

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[695] I will say, I think it bumps up against a few kind of cornerstone historic beliefs, one being give a man a fish versus give them a fishing pole, right?

[696] There's this Protestant kind of work ethic.

[697] Me, I question my faith in humanity all the time.

[698] If I incentivize moving to my city and I'll feed you and house you and clothe you, I'm going to see that number go up sixfold instead of me discouraging it, right?

[699] So I have hurdles with that, with that notion.

[700] I don't, again, my background, I think there are a lot of good people.

[701] I also think there's a lot of shit heads and scumbags and free riders.

[702] And so it's like I have fear of just incentivizing people to check out.

[703] So, you know, I can just be honest about me. I have fear of that.

[704] I tell you this.

[705] I am absolutely against incentivizing people.

[706] What I am for, when we think about bailouts and problems in the community, I think the biggest question in black and brown community has been questions about reparations.

[707] And they put it in the context of saying, well, hey, you fixed the issue with our Jewish brothers and sisters.

[708] Now, what about us, right?

[709] My problem is not that we don't need reparations.

[710] I truly think we do need reparations, but...

[711] We need something over and above that that allows for that reparations to happen in a miraculous way.

[712] We need to be taught how to fish.

[713] Yeah.

[714] I remember welfare, right?

[715] I remember having blocks of cheese in my home.

[716] I still love that government cheese.

[717] It make the best grilled cheese with it.

[718] There's something about that cheese.

[719] Yeah, man, I crave it.

[720] I crave that government cheese.

[721] Now, they can keep the can that just said pork on it with a picture of a pig, but I want that cheese.

[722] I don't know if Ethan has ever had government.

[723] I have not.

[724] I have not had getting cheese.

[725] It's like American cheese, but it's kind of hard.

[726] It's kind of like cheddar in consistency.

[727] I'm in streets now.

[728] It's the weirdest thing because it is like really good.

[729] You know, when you give people welfare, and you don't also give people the tools that allows them to pull themselves up, then you create a condition.

[730] And that condition is.

[731] far worse.

[732] And more expensive.

[733] Absolutely.

[734] Because see, the thing is this, when you think about stuff like poverty, poverty, I truly believe poverty is a created thing.

[735] And I believe that, and I talk about this in my book, but I believe that because as we look back and we loop things in, of course, things are different today.

[736] But when we look at the original, like if we said the origin story, right, we said, hey, well, how did things become the way they are?

[737] Then you realize that there are certain truths that are there.

[738] If you fail to teach people everything that they need to know, they will begin to live in a struggle mentality, in a survival mentality.

[739] What happens when you have to survive to live?

[740] Anything go.

[741] Absolutely.

[742] But if you teach people that they have psychosocial value, imagine when they start believing that.

[743] That's one of the things that.

[744] That's I had to learn for myself.

[745] Psychosocially, I matter.

[746] And if I matter, then that means that I can turn my light up.

[747] That means that I'm valued in community, in society.

[748] That means that I have a voice, that people want to hear what I have to say.

[749] And I think that that's the part that's important as well.

[750] In the Black Panthers, I think, were the best examples of this in their true history.

[751] You could not address the people until you fed them.

[752] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[753] Now when they're fed, now you can begin to give them proper instructions.

[754] Agreed.

[755] We need to be able to, as you would say, not incentivize, no, no, absolutely not.

[756] Can't have people just mooching.

[757] But when people begin to realize that their value, their worth, their purpose, it's like you can literally break generational curses by believing in yourself.

[758] Yeah, I often get in fights here in L .A. in my liberal bubble, which I'm a liberal, but still, I'll hear someone complain.

[759] They can't believe someone doesn't care about climate change or they can't believe someone's not eating organic or they and I think they're not even fed like their car payments late they don't they can't put gas in their car to get you think they of course they they don't have room to be worried about that they literally are trying to meet the most basic needs of being alive and caring for the people that depend on them so yes I so agree with you that we need to meet people's base level needs so that other thoughts you have time for them that you can explore who you want to be, what story you're going to write about your own life.

[760] But if that story is like, I got to get fed and I got to get rent, there's not a lot of extra bandwidth for what do I want to do on this planet and who do I want to impact and all those things.

[761] I think it's a luxury of having your needs met.

[762] And just under the reparations thing, I don't personally think a check to everyone is the move, but I do think a very substantial, I mean, billions and billions endowment for every one of these, that can get people to base level, that can give people educational opportunity, that can give people.

[763] That is so overdue.

[764] And I agree with you, too.

[765] I would hesitate, you can't write a check and get out of this either.

[766] It's not just write a check.

[767] It's not like, oh, here's whatever we determine this year.

[768] And now we're clean.

[769] That, too, is a cop -out.

[770] I tell you, it definitely is not the way to go.

[771] And I say that from having just finished Ramadan on the heels of fasting, unfortunate is the person who did all of that and didn't get anything out of it other than being hungry.

[772] It's supposed to change you.

[773] It's supposed to cause you to be a better person to appreciate different types of things in life.

[774] And then at the same time, the other part, the work that has to happen, you have to begin to continue to do the work.

[775] And the cool thing about it is that you found out that you could do the work.

[776] And because you found that out, now you know a truth that you could do it and you can keep on doing it.

[777] And so I think that that part is kind of cool as well.

[778] Just remembering, right, having those moments where you assess yourself and figure out some things, make a choice, and move in that direction.

[779] Have a plan.

[780] And that plan can't just be a plan to party on the weekend.

[781] Although I hope Ethan makes those plans as well.

[782] There's time to party and get an education.

[783] I did both.

[784] I did both.

[785] Yeah, yeah.

[786] If you're planning correctly, you can do both.

[787] Yeah, yeah.

[788] That's what the move has been.

[789] So Better Not Bitter is your new book?

[790] Better Not Bitter is my actual memoir.

[791] We're approaching like the two -year anniversary of when they see us.

[792] We are.

[793] Two years and fast.

[794] The other day, Khalil turned 17 last month.

[795] Wow.

[796] When we filmed that, he was 15.

[797] Like, I think I'm going to see him next week.

[798] And I was talking to his auntie.

[799] I was like, what if he's like, Pollocked in me. Like, I'm so scared for him to be grown, like, 17.

[800] My gosh.

[801] Yeah, it's flown by.

[802] It feels like.

[803] And what impact do you think that movie has had that you guys have seen?

[804] How did it impact folks in your age group?

[805] A very common thing people come up and tell me is just that they had a really difficult time watching it.

[806] I still have some friends that haven't gotten past the first episode.

[807] And I always tell them, you know what?

[808] Like, that's fine.

[809] Just make sure that you at least, like, up on it, educate yourself.

[810] And I think the biggest thing that's come out of all of it is that it started a conversation that we needed to start having.

[811] The younger generation needs to get more involved.

[812] I mean, you saw that with, like, voting this past year.

[813] People were really, like, honing in and saying, like, everyone that can vote, if you, like, just vote, just go.

[814] Yeah.

[815] It's not like they taught us, they didn't teach me about this case in school.

[816] No, yeah.

[817] They should have.

[818] made sure you taught me this and a lot more.

[819] Yeah, when you learn what you have a class, I was taught jurisprudence, oh, here's the history of our judicial system.

[820] It's jury of your peers.

[821] They need to add in there.

[822] Oh, p .S. Some significant percentage of the people we've killed were innocent.

[823] This percentage has been thrown in prison illegally.

[824] Because you would think that the system's perfect.

[825] I thought we, I'm like, oh, this sounds awesome.

[826] Yeah.

[827] We figured it out.

[828] Throwing it way back.

[829] It's like how you're talking about education.

[830] Who knows?

[831] had learned that when I was in school, maybe I read that and I'm like, I want to be a lawyer because I want this to stop.

[832] Totally.

[833] Hopefully when they see us as if impacted people in that way, like high school or like a middle school or like watches it with their parents and they're like, you know what, this is probably still going on.

[834] I don't want it to.

[835] How can I contribute to that change?

[836] So that's what I think in terms of impact is it's encouraging.

[837] It's a wonderful thing to think about.

[838] We've all been there.

[839] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[840] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[841] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[842] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[843] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[844] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[845] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[846] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon Music.

[847] What's up guys?

[848] It's your girl Kiki and my podcast is back with a new season and let me tell you It's too good.

[849] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[850] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[851] And I don't mean just friends.

[852] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[853] The list goes on.

[854] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[855] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[856] Yusuf, just logistically, I'm just thinking about you in prison for seven years knowing you didn't do the thing.

[857] are you trying to get out?

[858] Or do you go into some acceptance mode at some point where you're like, well, this is it?

[859] I'm still escaping.

[860] I am still escaping.

[861] There's not a day that goes by where the memories of where you were, no matter how faint they become, are still there.

[862] And when you're in there, you do come to a point where you accepted And you say to yourself, you know what?

[863] It is what it is.

[864] But the problem and the challenge is this.

[865] I remember early on finding this poem and reading it and being blown away by it.

[866] Very succinct piece of poetry by a guy named the teacher.

[867] And what he said was prison life in many ways can be likened to the womb.

[868] If the life inside becomes stillborn, the womb becomes the tomb.

[869] And you got to understand that for the rest of the of the world, when you see people return back to society who have been broken by the system, they look strong, their eyes are dead.

[870] It's like the hope is gone.

[871] And for me, it was one of those things that I knew I didn't want to die in prison.

[872] I didn't want to die of physical death, most importantly, but definitely not a spiritual death, definitely not a mental death.

[873] I wanted to thrive.

[874] And so over and above accepting that it is what it is, then you realize that you have to figure out what to do while you're here.

[875] My grandmother would always say, cast down your bucket.

[876] Over and above some of the letters that she sent me, it was the Blue Mountain Cards, carefully placed into an envelope that was addressed to this character that she was trying to make me into.

[877] And I think very brilliantly she used these words, Master Yusuf Salam.

[878] It was telling me that even though I'm not there with you, I need you to straighten your back.

[879] I need you to use your mind in such a way that you become powerful.

[880] I need you to challenge yourself, right?

[881] I need you to do things that will cause you to become the person that you need to become.

[882] But even outside of that, when you see George Floyd, when you see Breonna Taylor, when you see a Sean Bell, an Eric Gardner, right, a Trayvon Martin.

[883] And I mean, those are just some of the names, Amit Arbery.

[884] You've realized that you're always trying to.

[885] to escape.

[886] Because at any point in time, somebody could look at you, somebody could look at Ethan, somebody could look at any one of us and say, they have a weapon, I'm going to pass judgment on them, and therefore we become another hashtag.

[887] Oh, we're talking to you, like your story's over, right?

[888] Like you had this terrible miscarriage of justice, but then you were exonerated.

[889] This is somehow got a happy ending.

[890] No, you get pulled over.

[891] You're still in a much different situation.

[892] Like this, story's not over.

[893] It's not been fixed.

[894] It's not your markedly less safe than I am.

[895] The story's not over.

[896] A lot of work to be done.

[897] And I think, you know, Better Not Bitter is part of that, right?

[898] It's part of a love offering that I'm giving to the world that tells people that they two can turn up their light.

[899] When you look at the real issue, in America, it looks very black and white.

[900] It looks very race oriented.

[901] But then the rest of the world, it's not.

[902] It looks like people who look like each other oppressing each other.

[903] And so what you see and understand is that we're really talking about battling spiritual wickedness in high and low places.

[904] The first lady Michelle Obama, she said when they go low, we go high.

[905] But it's about actively participating in making sure that you always go high.

[906] Because I think the more of us that turn up our lights, the more of us that vibrate at higher levels, the better the world becomes.

[907] the less people choose to do wrong things, evil things, terrible things.

[908] And we know that this stuff still exists.

[909] But at some point, it's on us to choose better for our own selves.

[910] I think if I look at the Central Park Jager case, it would have been great for the prosecutor to say to herself, you know what?

[911] Something is just not right with this case.

[912] Let me revisit a few things.

[913] The police officers who were experts at that point in time.

[914] These were detectives that interrogated us.

[915] You couldn't even get into this detective squad unless you had 20 years on the job.

[916] So that made them an expert.

[917] If they chose the higher road, then they would have given themselves a legacy that would have been very different than the legacy that they'd left for their families.

[918] That's a hard challenge.

[919] People disassociate themselves because of that.

[920] But at the same time, people were able to eat lavishly to experience some of the best parts of life because they were promoted in their jobs, given great vacations because they did a great job until we found out that they didn't.

[921] Oh, that's so rough.

[922] Yeah, that story does never get easier, man. It's heartbreaking, but at the same time, what an encouraging and totally inspiring story because the saddest thing that could happen is they broke this beautiful spirit you have, which you have.

[923] that would have been the saddest thing and they didn't it's incredible and i think too it's great for us to remember we all have our challenges none of our challenges are probably as hard as being in prison for seven years wrongfully convicted so just if you can hold on to your spirit and your humanity and your positivity makes me think it's achievable for all of us so i really i really appreciate you and i think everyone should read better not bitter i'm in a so everything goes through that filter, but we have a saying, which is resentment are like drinking poison and hoping your enemy dies.

[924] Like, it's so true that you're the only one that suffers from that stuff.

[925] So both of you guys, so great to meet you, and I appreciate you both so much.

[926] And I hope people read, Better Not Bitter and rewatch when they see us to your anniversary.

[927] Absolutely.

[928] Appreciate that.

[929] Pleasure reading you guys.

[930] Yeah, you too, Ethan.

[931] Be good.

[932] Get through that organic cam.

[933] Yes, sir.

[934] You got to do it because we're not going to.

[935] Someone on this planet's got to understand that shit and it ain't going to be us.

[936] Bye.

[937] All right, guys.

[938] Bye, bye.

[939] Follow armchair expert on the Wondry app, Amazon music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[942] Thank you.