#1013 - Cameron Hanes

[0] What?

[1] Is that a record for consecutive wins?

[2] Oh, they did.

[3] I know, 20 -some?

[4] Yes!

[5] And we're live, Cam Haines.

[6] Flip that sucker over, so, you know, getting distractions.

[7] Oh, sorry.

[8] See, that's what happened.

[9] Jed already chimed in.

[10] This motherfucker's right in the other room.

[11] He's got to text you.

[12] Make sure you say this.

[13] Make sure you do that.

[14] We just got back from an epic Elkhunt in the mountains of Utah.

[15] We did.

[16] Epic is the right word.

[17] You know, I think people throw around Epic a little loosely.

[18] They do.

[19] time.

[20] Not this time.

[21] No, no. God, man, it was amazing.

[22] Yeah.

[23] First of all, the place was incredible.

[24] The mountains up there were just, the scenery was just stunning.

[25] Like, everywhere you look, your jaws drop.

[26] You're like, whoa.

[27] Yeah.

[28] It was amazing.

[29] Everything about it.

[30] Yeah.

[31] I mean, but, but especially the scenery, just the mountains that they live in there, they're rugged, they're beautiful.

[32] And, you know, the quakees haven't even turned yet.

[33] Normally, it seems like by this time, that's all yellow.

[34] Like, all those white trees yeah the aspens yeah why why do you call them quakees why does it quaking aspens yeah i've never heard them called quakees until this past weekend call them quakees or this past week rather everybody's calling quakees i'm like what are you guys talking about yeah yeah that's a photo that i took from up there yeah fuck man everywhere we look it was just like there was too many moments with elk that i couldn't film because it was just i was just so engrossed in the idea of like getting it done and the hunting aspect of it that i i didn't want to pull my phone out and be taking pictures every five minutes.

[35] Be the tourist.

[36] Yeah, I took a few here and there, but there were so many moments that I'm so glad that Under Armour filmed this whole thing.

[37] Yeah.

[38] So we're going to have a film of it.

[39] It's going to be released online, so people are going to get a chance to check out how just incredible and epic and maybe just get a tiny sense of what we talk about and we talk about how amazing it is to do this.

[40] Yeah, and we had the right guys filming it because, you know, there's all sorts of different levels of, especially hunting films.

[41] So, I mean, there's guys out there just with a handy can, you know, just trying to do the best they can to share their experience.

[42] And then there's guys like Mark Womack and his crew with Sub 7 that make films.

[43] I mean, you know, he's filmed me. There's an episode called Roy's Buck, a whitetail hunt in Colorado.

[44] Did he do the Time episode?

[45] Time.

[46] Yeah.

[47] That one's amazing.

[48] The time.

[49] That's really good.

[50] Oregon, Elkhunt.

[51] And so those are not just your typical what people might think of as a hunting film.

[52] Those are just, you know, or hunting video.

[53] These are true films.

[54] Well, it's a short film, and it's really like almost like a mini documentary of how you're trying to balance your life and training and running and competing in these ultramarathons and then also working a full -time job.

[55] And then also going out and bow hunting.

[56] And it's really well done.

[57] Yeah.

[58] So those same guys filmed us.

[59] Yeah.

[60] Man, do we got some epic footage.

[61] Just epic.

[62] Yeah.

[63] And like you said, hopefully, give us.

[64] gives a glimpse for people that haven't experienced it or aren't hunters maybe just to see everything that's involved in the hunt and you know how powerful it is and just the wild animals out there interacting with each other and and then how we fit in that formula it's crazy it is it's one of those things that I really think our words like people will be intrigued by the words but I don't think we're ever going to be able to put it in their head what we experienced.

[65] Because there was one point in time where Jameson and Colton and I were together in the woods.

[66] And I just stopped.

[67] And as we were walking towards this elk that was screaming and there was screaming elk all around us.

[68] And you hear these cow elk that are making this meow, meow, meh.

[69] And screaming is bugling.

[70] Screaming.

[71] We call it screaming.

[72] It's part of the mating ritual basically of the male elk.

[73] Yeah.

[74] And they're just bugling.

[75] And we call it screaming because it's just like.

[76] echoing that's what it sounds like there's a little higher a couple higher notes in there but yeah well some of them are like some of them have a growl too yeah it starts deep it goes high usually comes back deep and then the grunts we heard the one bull that I wound up killing that sounded like Jurassic Park and it was a crazy scene because Jameson and Colton and I were tucked into Jameson was the guy was filming it Colton was the guy and me and we're tucked into this one small area, these trees that was at the edge of this creek, and we were watching these doze, and we saw three does so we knew, and there's a lesson in this.

[77] I said do I said doves?

[78] Yeah, cows.

[79] Sorry.

[80] Wrong terminology.

[81] There's a lesson in this for regular people, for life, and this is the lesson in life.

[82] Because we saw these cows, and we snuck in, and we were like, wow, there's got to be a bull here, because there's like three cows, and we saw three more cows.

[83] It's a time of year.

[84] Yeah.

[85] There's no cows unattended.

[86] So there was 30 cows.

[87] The cows kept filing in.

[88] And we were like, where is this bull?

[89] Like, where is he?

[90] And all of a sudden, out of the creek bottom, steam coming out of his mouth.

[91] How far away?

[92] 60, 70 yards, something like that.

[93] Like, through the trees.

[94] And the bugling is deafening, it feels like, at that distance.

[95] It's so close.

[96] So loud.

[97] And he was just letting everybody know.

[98] Back the fuck up.

[99] I'm here.

[100] Yeah.

[101] I mean, it's like a grand entrance.

[102] So this is the lesson He gives you chills, doesn't it?

[103] Oh, it did.

[104] But this is the lesson.

[105] There was one cow.

[106] He had 30 cows.

[107] Yeah.

[108] And one cow was like, I don't want to be here.

[109] I'm tired of being number 31.

[110] There's always one.

[111] Fuck this.

[112] And she takes off.

[113] And he could not just be satisfied with his 30 cows.

[114] I think he had more than 30.

[115] It was so hard to count.

[116] They were everywhere.

[117] Yeah.

[118] But he could not be satisfied.

[119] No. With the cows he had left.

[120] He's like, no, no, no, no. Where are you going, baby?

[121] And he went chasing out.

[122] after her.

[123] And when he went chasing after her, these other cows that were left behind started going, they make this noise like they want some dick.

[124] And when that was happening, this other bull behind us was like, I felt that bill, I'm the man for you, girls.

[125] Well, fuck that dude, I'm right here.

[126] So he starts screaming and then the other bull starts screaming.

[127] So he decided it's too much.

[128] And so he takes all of his cows and he moves him over the top of the hill.

[129] When he moved him over the top of the hill, we went.

[130] after him and when we went after him he turned around because he thought we were that other bull he heard you he heard us walking yeah so they can hear i'm sure yeah yeah no so he just thought it was the bull coming yeah heard their sticks breaking and and and falls and things like that yeah and that's how he got him yeah so if he just let that girl go yeah just get out of here baby so what's the lesson the lesson is you got to let things go sometimes oh is that it you got 30 cows and one of them takes off or you might take an arrow in the chest you might yeah yeah let that let that let that let come go i'm gonna jot that down actually it's a very strong lesson it's a lesson for life like sometimes you can't be greedy he got greedy yeah and when he we probably got him anyway but he got greedy it's tough you know those things they only have one thing on their mind and that's breeding yeah you know so there is no 29 is good enough you know if we're rough numbers but let that one go they're fighting for everything they got you know and it's you know we did see bulls fighting you know it's uh we see the bull the the big herd bulls posturing you know so they're bugling they get kind of swole up sometimes if they're uh you know if there's a subordinate bull they'll kind of walk a little sideways to say see how big i am i mean it's all this this body language that goes on with these elk but it's what they do that's all they care about right now when we were cutting the bull open he had cuts and holes all over his his rib cage and his ass, like everywhere.

[131] He had stab marks from fighting.

[132] Like you cut below the skin, you see all these, like, punctures.

[133] Yeah, yeah.

[134] Their antlers are, I mean, and they're big, big solid muscle, eight, 900 -pound animals, barely any fat, living in the mountains that, and you know how tough those mountains were to get around.

[135] They're in there every day, sleeping on dirt, tough, strong, and fighting, yeah, they get beat up.

[136] Yeah, I mean, just what a crazy existence, too.

[137] that for one month out of the year, everything goes haywire.

[138] Because everything goes, your friends, or now your enemies, you're ready to fight to the death with guys who were just hanging out with a couple of weeks ago.

[139] All summer.

[140] All summer.

[141] All summer.

[142] Yeah, you weren't at the lake, but you were hanging out.

[143] You weren't at the lake.

[144] But you guys were eating grass.

[145] Yeah.

[146] You're just looking out for wolves.

[147] Actually, they don't have wolves up there.

[148] Well, they had a wolf came through real recently, right?

[149] They have bears.

[150] A lot of bears.

[151] But they don't have a ton of predators, which is one reason why the elk are doing so well up there.

[152] It was incredible.

[153] I've never seen so many elk in one place.

[154] Like you had told me about it, but when you get there and you hear them all screaming, we heard a hundred different elk screaming in this one basin.

[155] Yeah, yeah.

[156] I mean, it's unlike anything I've ever heard, and I've elk hunted a lot of different places.

[157] And that's the, you know, if you, and I said, if you're an elk hunter, I said one morning, I think it was the morning that was snowing and we were in on bowls, you know, crazy rut activity, amazing footage, cold, wet, elk hunting, and I'd said, told Mark and the guy, said, if you're an elk hunter, this is as good as it gets.

[158] Yeah.

[159] I mean, it's, you couldn't, it couldn't be any better.

[160] No, it was the terrain was beautiful, the weather was beautiful.

[161] There was one time where we had snuck up to this one bull, and he was younger, he was still a big bull, but he was.

[162] You wanted to shoot every bull?

[163] Yeah, the ranch where we were at, they were really smart.

[164] and how they manage the wildlife there.

[165] And one of the things they do is you're supposed to only kill an animal that's over eight years old, eight years or older.

[166] Yeah.

[167] So that way, they've had many, many, many years to breed.

[168] They're really like, they're in the later years of their life.

[169] Like, how long does an elk live in the wild, if it's lucky?

[170] They thought that the bull I killed last year was 15.

[171] Whoa.

[172] But that's rare.

[173] That's crazy old.

[174] I mean, a 10 -year -old bull was old.

[175] Yeah.

[176] So they figure it at eight, and then it starts going downhill.

[177] So it's been past its prime, and that's past its breeding prime.

[178] So that's when you want to take it out.

[179] Yeah.

[180] Colton said that mine was between eight and a half and nine and a half.

[181] Like he didn't, they're trying to get specific.

[182] Yeah.

[183] I guess they have to take the jaw and send it to a biologist.

[184] Yeah.

[185] Teeth wear and things like that.

[186] Yeah.

[187] So the estimate was eight and a half to nine and a half years old.

[188] That's an old bull.

[189] It's an old bull.

[190] But yeah.

[191] There's a tank.

[192] So that property, it's about.

[193] a quarter million acres, 250 ,000 acres, and they figure there's almost 3 ,000 elk, you know.

[194] And that's actually a little bit more than optimum carrying capacity for that amount of property and that many elk.

[195] So they'd like to get that number down a little bit, and it just increased the habitat and the elk herd health.

[196] Do they ever think about capturing some of those?

[197] I know the Rocky Mountain Elk Federation does that.

[198] Is it, or Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation?

[199] What is it?

[200] Foundation.

[201] They capture them, and then they'll release.

[202] and the places like Kentucky, and they've sort of reestablished, like, a real herd there now.

[203] So for people that don't know, in one point in time, elk were essentially all over the United States.

[204] But then Europeans came, and then market hunting came, and of course, we had rifles, and it's not we.

[205] We didn't do it.

[206] I wasn't there.

[207] People that are like us did it.

[208] Yeah.

[209] But the market hunters essentially almost wiped out the elk.

[210] And at the turn of the century, there were very few elk, very few deer, and then they had established some protocols and some wildlife conservation ideas in place in order to try to revive them.

[211] They've done an amazing job since then.

[212] And now foundations like the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, what they've done is move elk into areas where they had been extirpated.

[213] So they had been driven out of the area essentially extinct in this one particular region.

[214] And now they have healthy populations.

[215] They're hunting.

[216] I mean, they got enough to where they can manage them.

[217] Pennsylvania has a lot of elk now.

[218] Big bulls there are, yeah.

[219] I've seen them on the internet, a lot of.

[220] Yeah.

[221] No, and it's, you know, we talk about this every time about hunters and conservation and the Rocky Mountain Oak Foundation.

[222] But those are the groups that have fought to protect elk and elk habitat.

[223] And that's why they're doing so well.

[224] But so I think, in fact, here's a gratuitous crotch shot.

[225] Can you see that?

[226] Oh, that's a Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation.

[227] Bell buckle.

[228] Stimps, step back a little bit so people can see the glory that is your bell buckle.

[229] That is my bell buckle.

[230] Yeah, so they've done an amazing job.

[231] And then obviously there's companies that have other foundations that have done an amazing job for waterfowl, protecting wetlands.

[232] And then for white tails, I mean, there's more white -tailed deer in America today than the war when Columbus came.

[233] That's what most people hunt is white tail, too, because they're in eastern, southern U .S., you know, where elk are mostly out west, but they are, you know, moving back east again.

[234] But, yeah, most hunters are whitetail hunters, and those, that animal's doing amazing.

[235] Yeah, I mean, so amazing so that they actually have to hire people to kill them in some places where they get too close to urban environments and they have a ton of car accidents.

[236] There's some states, God, I wish I could, I don't know every state in the bag limits, but I'm thinking Alabama or somewhere down in there where you can kill a deer a day.

[237] As many as you want.

[238] There's no predators.

[239] There's no winter.

[240] So these animals aren't dying on their own.

[241] So, I mean, we just don't have unlimited habitat because humans take up space.

[242] So down there, the bag of limit is a deer a day.

[243] Wow.

[244] And I don't know if it's Alabama, so don't quote me on that.

[245] But it's one of those states.

[246] Yeah.

[247] Yeah, yeah.

[248] I think they have something like that similar in some parts of Pennsylvania and New Jersey where they're in these suburban areas.

[249] I was watching a television show about it.

[250] I think it was one of those reality shows where they had hired people to come in, bow hunters to hunt in suburban neighborhoods.

[251] Yeah, yeah.

[252] I've seen something about that, too.

[253] She's not off back porches.

[254] Yeah, yeah.

[255] Well, I saw an episode of a hunting show the other day with T -Bone was doing that.

[256] T -Bone Turner was shooting.

[257] I love T -Bone.

[258] He's a great guy.

[259] Yeah, he's awesome.

[260] He was shooting deer in this backyard in between an above ground swimming pool and a swing set.

[261] He shot a deer.

[262] Yeah, well, if that was a swing movie?

[263] No. Because he's a good shot.

[264] Yeah, he could probably...

[265] I'm sure.

[266] Yeah, he'd time it.

[267] Yeah, time it.

[268] That'd be kind of fun.

[269] Two million car accidents happen every year just in North America with deer.

[270] Yeah, I'm sure.

[271] And 150 people die every year in car accidents.

[272] Wasn't there a guy that died in your neighborhood?

[273] Yeah, a deer went...

[274] through a windshield of a van or something like that in uh right in eugene there yeah didn't like hit the car in front of it hit it and then it flew into his i don't know i can't remember the details i think that's what you told me yeah but it happens a lot yeah it does i mean it's and that's the there's always that balance of uh animal numbers and habitat and where we live and making it all work yeah and that's where people get super emotional people get very emotional about animals you know I mean, what is this?

[275] Whoa, buck deer crashes through SUV windshield drive or hurt.

[276] Yeah, that's crazy.

[277] He didn't even die.

[278] That guy didn't die apparently.

[279] He just got hurt.

[280] It's an escalate.

[281] Yeah.

[282] God.

[283] That is crazy.

[284] That looks like a mule deer.

[285] It's a big, big deer.

[286] Yeah.

[287] Come flying through your windshield.

[288] Yeah.

[289] People get super emotional about this.

[290] This is one of those subjects wherever, whenever we're talking about hunting, like there's one way that we normally talk about it when it's just like you and I or maybe some other hunters.

[291] where we talk about how great it is, how much we love it, how great the meat is.

[292] Yeah.

[293] And then there's a way that you talk about it in public where you have to sort of temper that, knowing there's a bunch of people that are listening that are going to get very emotional, that are maybe anti -hunters, and some of them where it gets really weird, also eat meat.

[294] Yeah, God, you know, I'm a sucker.

[295] I read the comments on social media, and it's like you tell me, don't read them, but I think you do too.

[296] but anyway and it's just some people it's like i saw one today and i think you mentioned that i was going to be on somebody said something like joe for his whatever i can't remember intelligent or in tune or something you are i can't believe you hunt you know or can't whatever it's just like check that dude's instagram for a cheeseburger yeah i mean check to see if he's got a cat that he's feeding murdered animals to to me i think if you are you know in tune with actually how the world and nature and how we live and what we need the more in tune you are the more accepting you are of hunting not not the more you you slide it because it's how it's how it's how we survive it's you know life eats life and it's just like it seems weird for people to think that oh i'm i'm evolved past that and i'm smarter more intelligent and you're a neanderthal it's just it's opposite really well what they're trying to do and i understand it and i appreciate it What they're trying to do is move past the idea that we have to be cruel and that we have to kill animals and that we have to live off the suffering of other living creatures in order to survive.

[297] So this is like the vegan idea, right?

[298] So what they want to do is live off only plants and not participate at all in any sort of slaughter of animals or any sort of cruelty.

[299] and in theory it's a great idea it's a great idea because nobody wants to be cruel nobody wants to be vicious i don't like to be cruel i don't want my goal isn't to be cruel i don't like seeing animal suffer right that's the worst thing in my life is to see an animal suffer which sounds very contradictory coming from a guy who's killed a lot of animals 100 % true i mean i don't i don't enjoy it in if it animal suffers i feel bad right but if it's a clean kill it's better than anything that animal's going to get in the wild.

[300] In the wild that animal is going to die either by freezing to death or being torn apart by predators because it's old or it's going to get injured and it's going to get torn apart.

[301] I found a dead bull last year that took an antler in the neck from fighting and who knows how long it took to bleed out.

[302] You know, maybe it broke its neck.

[303] Maybe it was paralyzed and it laid there and it took days to die.

[304] But a hunter, and the term I like to use, use is being merciful.

[305] I want to be ethical, quick, and merciful when I kill an animal because that's 100 % the opposite of how nature works.

[306] Well, this is one thing that you have said to be in private.

[307] When we've talked about it, you know, we're saying that what you train for and what you strive for is so that in that moment you can make the most precise shot and kill that animal as quickly and as ethically and as efficiently as possible.

[308] And that that's on your mind every time you release an arrow.

[309] Every time.

[310] Yeah.

[311] And yeah, so I just think people, I know it's hard to understand.

[312] I get it.

[313] If you haven't hunted and you haven't been in the mounds and you haven't seen how cruel nature can actually be, it's hard to comprehend.

[314] Yeah, it is.

[315] And it's also the reason why human beings are today, or here today, the reason why we survived is because of hunting.

[316] Does it mean that you can't be a vegetarian?

[317] You can't go vegan.

[318] No, it doesn't.

[319] You can do whatever you want to do.

[320] But the reason why human beings have made it to the top of the food chain is because we consumed animals.

[321] It's one of the primary reasons that biologists believe that our brains evolved past that of lower primates is that we figured out fire.

[322] We figured out how to cook meat and the nutrients from that cooking meat along with the complex problem solving issues that come up in hunting are one of the reasons why we evolved because to be smarter and more clever than these animals that are faster than you, smell better than you, hear better than you, see better than you, stronger than you.

[323] They have more endurance than you.

[324] These elk run up that mountain like it's a joke.

[325] I was hoffin and puffin.

[326] I mean, I've been running a lot since we did that keep hammering 5K last year and I realized what a pussy I am.

[327] And then, you know, times that we've hunted together too, I've just been really out of breath.

[328] And even though I've work out doing other things I realized like you have to run hills there's no way around it right so it helped me a lot that was very nice to see it was very nice to see a big difference in my endurance now where I can keep up yeah whereas before it was like a huge struggle because every day we were doing 10 12 miles yeah yeah but these elk go up there like nothing oh I know like it's nothing yeah so for a human at one point in our evolutionary past to figure out how to beat these things at their own game trick them and get meat from them and survive and then develop strategies for that and then teach other people in their community these strategies and this evolved and this this is the reason why you and I are talking today on microphones that are powered by electricity that in this room that shelter in this city this complex series of buildings that we've built a lot to protect us from the environment and from other animals yeah yeah it's it's been i mean quite a journey and the part of that so yeah we have evolved yes we've got better and we are that's why we're different than an elk and other animals that's and we take advantage of that superiority and we use it to kill them to eat them to hold them at home but i just for me it's you know if it was about the killing just killing i wouldn't bow hunt bow hunting is very hard um i would rifle hunt if i just to go out there and kill something that would be that's usually the most efficient way to get a kill as you rifle hunt so maybe maybe 10 times easier i don't know but with a bow i just know how difficult it is and and you know you talked about the improvements you've made you've been bow hunting now for four years and um i just want i do want to touch on um it's been awesome to see the dedication you have to the craft of bow hunting it is not easy i mean i know people who don't hunt, see it and say, oh, you just enjoy killing animals out there.

[329] I just said if I, if I just want to kill, I'd use a gun.

[330] It's, it is about the challenge and about the experience.

[331] And it's not easy.

[332] And the improvements you've made in four years, and it's basically through obsession.

[333] I mean, to be great at anything, you need to be slightly obsessed and you have been.

[334] But that learning curve for hunting is so steep.

[335] It's like sometimes people, you know, because of how we've talked and, you know, the stories we've shared on social media, it looks intriguing.

[336] It looks, I don't know.

[337] I mean, it's just, it's powerful.

[338] So people, they want a piece of that.

[339] They want to know what that feels like to be ingrained in that world.

[340] And, you know, we get messages, hey, I want to get started in bow hunting.

[341] And part of me is going, oh, my God, I want you to, but it's a long journey.

[342] It is hard.

[343] Yeah, it's almost too much.

[344] It's not too much.

[345] Because I don't want to discourage anybody, but God, it's tough.

[346] I mean, just to get good enough.

[347] Listen, I've been doing this for almost 30 years now, 1989, and I killed my first bull out because of spike bull.

[348] And so since 1989, so this is 29 years of bow hunting.

[349] And I go into this season, just like I go into every season, and I wonder, is this going to be the season where I don't get any kid?

[350] Well, I have no success because it could happen.

[351] It's that hard.

[352] Because I've killed before and had success for all these years, it doesn't mean anything right now.

[353] It doesn't mean anything to an animal that I was pursuing in Utah, a big bull.

[354] That big bull could care less about, oh, you know, he's had a lot of success over the years.

[355] It means nothing, you know.

[356] And so I always wonder, is this going to be the year where I can't get it done?

[357] And it completely changes your relationship to your food because all your meat that you're getting in your house is coming from your success, bow hunting.

[358] So when you are entering into a season and you're wondering whether or not you're going to get success, you're literally, worrying whether or not you're going to be able to provide for your family the way you have been over the past.

[359] And it's not like we're starving.

[360] Right.

[361] But it's like this is the way you've chosen to acquire meat though in this ethical, humane, wild way.

[362] When my family goes to the freezer and opens it, there's always elk meat in there.

[363] Always.

[364] That's what I do.

[365] I make sure we have, my family has meat to eat.

[366] So when they go to the freezer and open it and there's no elk meat, that's not good.

[367] I mean, yeah, we're not going to starve.

[368] But that's what we're used to.

[369] That's, that's, I've provided like that.

[370] My family, friends and family have called, hey, you got any elk me, you can spare, got any hamburger, you know, whatever.

[371] Always.

[372] Yeah.

[373] Oh, yeah, I love to.

[374] That's what I love to do.

[375] So, yeah, I don't want to face a prospect of not having that.

[376] Right.

[377] Yeah, I give away a lot of it.

[378] I'm constantly giving it to Brian Cowan.

[379] Yeah.

[380] Brian needs to get back on the horse.

[381] He hasn't had any success hunting in a couple of years, so he mooches off me. Did he, he's killed then?

[382] Yeah, he's got a few deer.

[383] Oh, okay, all right.

[384] He's never shot a bow before, but he's rifle hunted.

[385] I figured that's why he was so ripped is from all that, that lean meat and lean protein.

[386] Because he is a beautiful man. He's beautiful.

[387] Yeah, he wants to get into bow hunting, but it's another one of those things.

[388] Like, yeah, you say you do, but do you really, you know, because if you do, it's going to take a lot of your time.

[389] You've got to get all in, all in.

[390] You can't go halfway.

[391] No. And there's the other thing that people love to say, you know, that meat is terrible for you and you're going to get cancer and heart attacks and diabetes.

[392] People who keep repeating that, stop saying it because it's not true.

[393] You're wrong.

[394] I know you like to say that because it sounds good and it sounds like a really good argument for people that eat meat.

[395] It's absolutely untrue.

[396] And if you go back and look at the real studies, the only thing that they've shown is there's a connection between cancer and processed food.

[397] There is a connection between preservatives, nitrites, and a lot of the things that we use to make processed meat.

[398] So if you're talking about things like hot dogs and processed meats and, you know, kind of like beef sticks that you might get at the gas station, yeah, eat enough of those and your body's going to revolt.

[399] It's not good for you.

[400] But wild game meat is some of the most nutritious and healthy things that you can put in your body.

[401] And that's just a fact.

[402] And so people that keep putting these comments on Cam Haynes' Instagram page and occasionally on mine and all these different, they always want to say this.

[403] Kane, you're going to eat cancer.

[404] Good luck with your heart attack.

[405] It's not true.

[406] And every study that has shown that it is true is bullshit.

[407] They've all been debunked by actual science.

[408] If you look at the real people that are putting together these documentaries that show that meat causes diabetes, they are fools.

[409] And it's not true.

[410] It's been widely debunked.

[411] What they are is proselytizing vegan.

[412] They're vegans who want everyone to become vegan, so they're distorting truth in making documentaries that have no basis in actual reality in science.

[413] And if you just Google, like, what was the most recent one those guys did?

[414] What the Health?

[415] Yeah, what the health.

[416] Google, what the health, debunked.

[417] And there's a ton of scientists that have no stake in the game.

[418] They're not, like, from the meat industry.

[419] They're just people that have seen the doctors have reviewed it.

[420] There's people that have seen the actual facts and seen this documentary and go, this is nonsense.

[421] And so people regurgitate that stuff all the time.

[422] I just want to tell people, like, just do some research, read some of the actual studies.

[423] Here's what's bad for you, a sedentary lifestyle.

[424] Sedentary lifestyle is terrible for you.

[425] Sitting in your office chair, sitting in your cubicle, eating too much, bad for you.

[426] High carbohydrate diets, bad for you.

[427] Getting too fat, bad for you.

[428] Drinking a lot of alcohol, bad for you.

[429] drinking sugary sodas, bad for you.

[430] All those things are way worse for you than an elk steak.

[431] Way worse.

[432] So if you're eating any of those things or doing any of those things and you say, good luck with your heart attack, fuck off.

[433] Because you don't know what you're talking about.

[434] Yeah, it's true.

[435] And since we're talking about one thing that I get, I think we have to be careful on is slamming, I guess, the beef industry.

[436] because we're not trying to do that.

[437] You know, people always say, you know, there's cattle ranches out there that work hard, that do it right.

[438] And, you know, there is factory farming, which people, I feel like almost, I've been guilty of it, maybe throwing around factory farming, almost like a vegan will throw around good luck with that heart attack.

[439] Right.

[440] And they're most, there's a lot of ranches that do it right, that have the cattle out there free ranging, and the only time that they're in a small enclosure is when they are killed.

[441] Brought to slaughter.

[442] Yeah, brought to slaughter.

[443] So, I mean, you know, I buy steak still occasionally from my buddy at E3.

[444] There's plenty of places that have, I don't know, if you're going to look at ethical beef production, there's a lot of places that do it.

[445] I agree.

[446] And the same thing can be said with chicken and same thing you'd say with poultry, with turkey.

[447] There's a lot of free range.

[448] And there's more of an emphasis.

[449] I think that's one of the reasons why people become more and more interested in hunting today.

[450] They're more in tune.

[451] meat meat.

[452] Well, but people are more concerned with the ethics behind how their food is raised.

[453] You know, there's a lot of farm -to -table restaurants that are opening up, which are really amazing.

[454] You can go and you can, you know, and there's a place near me. And you get these eggs and they're dark yolks, like a dark orange yolk at this restaurant.

[455] And they have, like, grass -fed beef that taste healthy.

[456] It tastes really good.

[457] Yeah.

[458] And that's the stuff we're supposed to be eating.

[459] We've gotten into this crazy situation.

[460] as human beings where we're getting food that is in a lot of ways tasteless because it's been engineered to last forever on a shelf.

[461] We've gotten this meat that's gotten super fat because they're pumping them up with antibiotics and feeding them grain until they, you know, just become these fat, unhealthy things that are in no way resemble a wild creature.

[462] Well, we had a steak last night at the airport.

[463] Yeah.

[464] Taste -wise, is like, Like, I could barely taste it.

[465] Yeah, it was not much to it.

[466] Yeah.

[467] But I think that was also probably the way it was cooked, but what was really weird is the difference in the connection with that, right?

[468] Like when you sit down and you cook an elk steak, you remember where you were when you shot that.

[469] You remember how hard it was to get to that elk.

[470] You remember the stalk.

[471] You remember maybe several blown stalks where the wind shifted on you and the elk spooked and took off and how difficult it is.

[472] And the intense success.

[473] And that's another thing that people don't like the idea of the happiness that comes with success when you kill something.

[474] But it's hard to understand, I think.

[475] Yeah.

[476] But it's, yeah, I mean, it's an achievement.

[477] And it's not like, oh, we murdered something, so we're celebrating.

[478] But it's so hard.

[479] We talked about the difficulty.

[480] You achieve something of great difficulty when that animal's dead.

[481] And then you're skinning it.

[482] you're cutting the meat off.

[483] I mean, you know, I took out the tenderloins of the bull I killed, you know, and smelled it, made sure the meat, always just making sure, because that is the fruit of the labor right there is that meat.

[484] So you just, you're holding a big slab of steak.

[485] And like you said, you remember everything, but mostly of what I'm thinking of there is how clean it is, how pure it is, does it smell good, smells perfect.

[486] and that's just kind of the process.

[487] It goes in the meat bag.

[488] It goes on my back.

[489] It comes off the mountain.

[490] It goes in the cooler.

[491] It goes to the processor.

[492] It gets cut and frozen and wrapped.

[493] And then I cook it.

[494] That's a lot of, I mean, a lot of steps.

[495] We go to the airport.

[496] We say, yeah, could I get the sirloin?

[497] That's it.

[498] Yeah.

[499] That's it.

[500] And that's how most people do it.

[501] Yeah.

[502] And that's a weird place that we've gotten into as human beings.

[503] And then hunters are judged negatively for having to.

[504] just that whole emotional thing and all the meaning and the feeling and the and the connection to it and and we're judged negatively for that but the person who sits down and says i'll take the sirloin that's good wow good to go it's like it should be opposite it should but you know what it is too it's like the building is faceless right okay the restaurant is faceless the supermarket is faceless you have no idea who did the actual killing of the cow when you go to the woods and you come out with an elk steak and you kill it and you're wearing a Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation belt buckle and your your cam haines like people can look to you well there I found one right there like you are the connection to death you're the connection to death meanwhile if someone was outside protesting you like they found out we're doing this podcast and you're like you son of a bitch we're we're the ones who put up the petition we want to to get you banned from Under Armour, you're a terrible person, you're a trophy hunter, you're out there killing animals.

[505] All around them is dead animals.

[506] Every gas station is filled with beef sticks.

[507] Every restaurant is filled with dead animals.

[508] Every supermarket is filled with dead animals.

[509] In this area where we're at, there are 100 places that you can walk to inside of three minutes that have dead animals in them.

[510] Yeah, but they'd be protesting here.

[511] Me. They'd be protesting here.

[512] You because you're a face.

[513] And meanwhile, that's what's so back -ass words about it.

[514] It's because we're doing it the right way.

[515] You're doing, not saying you have to do it that way, but if you wanted to have the most, this is a weird word, spiritual connection to your food, there's no, it is, there's nothing else I've ever experienced that's even remotely close.

[516] Right.

[517] Yeah.

[518] I mean, and there's, I guess to some people, some people are getting it.

[519] You know, there's some people that would protest out here.

[520] It wouldn't matter what justification you had.

[521] Yeah.

[522] They were never going to see it.

[523] And that's fine because we're all different.

[524] You know, we all have different passions.

[525] So that group of people, whatever.

[526] But there's a people in the middle that we have, they have heard and they have thought about it.

[527] And they have, you know, realized that does make, that actually makes sense.

[528] And those are the people that want to know what it'd be like to be a provider for themselves, to go into the mountains and to come loaded out with, you know, a pack full of meat.

[529] And so those are the people, I guess, we're talking to.

[530] We're never going to get the extreme people.

[531] No, I mean, and that's always going to be the case with all arguments.

[532] There's always going to be radical people on all sides, you know, and I think our job as human beings communicating to other human beings is to try to relay our own experiences as clear and as honest as possible.

[533] And that's why I always try to look at it from the other point of view.

[534] I always try to look at it from people that I think are good people that become vegans because they're good people.

[535] because they want to have no cruelty.

[536] And I think they just have a perspective that I don't share.

[537] And that perspective is I've actually been involved in, I've gone through the ritual of the hunting, gone through the trials and tribulations of hiking many, many miles and trying to find these things and trying to figure out the wind.

[538] And it hasn't all been success.

[539] No, it's a lot of failure.

[540] It's a lot of failure.

[541] It's more success lately than ever, but that's just because I've worked harder than ever.

[542] And then it kept more and more dedication, more time, being obsessed, more time, practicing.

[543] I practice every day.

[544] I'm shooting every day.

[545] It's a, you know, people see the success.

[546] They see the pictures.

[547] If it's somebody they want to hate, it's me they hate.

[548] I'm sitting there with the dead elk.

[549] But hunting is such a roller coaster.

[550] It's like everything is magnified.

[551] The success is magnified because it's so hard.

[552] The failure is magnified because it hurts so bad because you've worked so hard.

[553] I mean, it took me, I started, like I said, in 1989, it took me to 1996 to kill my first six -point bull elk in the wilderness.

[554] And it would have been, we wouldn't even have looked at it on this last time.

[555] It would have been like, ah, there's a little bull.

[556] I mean, but when I got that six -point bull elk, I felt so proud.

[557] I'd finally achieved, I mean, that's the bull on this buckle right here is a six -point, and I thought I finally did it.

[558] But in between there had been so many disappointments and devastations and in the wilderness.

[559] I remember one time I'd been in there by myself, I think like day eight.

[560] I was in this dry creek bed and here comes these cows come across.

[561] Here comes this big bull.

[562] I don't know how big he was.

[563] He's pretty big for there, you know, 320, 3 .30, which is a scoring number.

[564] Which is calculating the length of all the points of the antlers.

[565] So it would have been still slightly smaller than the bulls we just killed.

[566] And he came across there, and I'm on my knees, and I shoot.

[567] And I hit, if you hit him in the shoulder back then, the bows weren't as efficient as they are now.

[568] But if you hit him in the shoulder blade, it went in about, I would say, an inch, inch and a half.

[569] Arrow hit his shoulder blade, stopped, and basically fell out.

[570] and he went running off and I went up and picked up my arrow and there's blood just on the broadhead and to them you know something like that is they might have a sore shoulder for a little while they take antlers and the guts and neck and all the time so they heal up like they're they're amazing so that was nothing essentially nothing more than a flesh wound but I remember sitting there looking at my arrow looking at the little bit of blood on my broadhead and I mean eyes welling up with tears because eight days just there but working all year towards that moment and having that opportunity at 43 yards and being inches off because inches further to the right back would have been double long dead bull biggest bull ever all the hard work paid off to being devastated so people see the success some 20 years later or whatever it's been they don't to be to feel as disappointed as I was to wonder if all the work was worth it to hurt that bad they don't see that but that's why hunting is so powerful that's why hunting has changed my life because it's so difficult and because there's those ups and downs and you know we try we do a better job of sharing the complete journey now than back in the day you just you know it'd just be like hey it killed this bull that's it you know you'd go to the archery pro shop you put your picture up of the bull that you killed and that was it now we're a little more in tune i see all sorts of people on social media now and they they they show the picture of their bull and they get down you read the caption it's about you know providing for their family and and pure protein in their freezer so we're doing a better job of explaining it but still until you've been there it's really hard to grasp what it all means no i don't i don't think anybody's going to i don't think it's possible it's it's also So it's something more.

[571] It's a discipline, but it's something more.

[572] Like, sometimes people call bow hunting a sport, and I always kind of cringe.

[573] Yeah, I don't like that either.

[574] Because I think it's not a word for it.

[575] No, it's not a sport.

[576] I don't think there's a comparative word.

[577] I think it's bow hunting.

[578] I think it is what it is.

[579] Because I don't, I think...

[580] It's a lifestyle is what I say.

[581] You have to be immersed in a lifestyle to really understand it.

[582] A sport makes it seem like, you know, keeping score.

[583] Well, to me, it's a lot like Jiu -Jitsu in that way, too, where if you talk to people who train in Jiu -Jitsu a lot, they understand how difficult it is, and they understand the struggle.

[584] And they understand that in that struggle, like all struggles, I think people need struggle.

[585] I think it's very important.

[586] Yeah.

[587] Like, you get better not just at the jiu -jitsu or not just at the bow -hunting.

[588] You get better at being a person.

[589] And I feel better today after this trip in Utah.

[590] than I felt before I left.

[591] Not that I felt bad before I left, I felt great, but I feel energized.

[592] Why?

[593] I feel energized because of the experience.

[594] I feel energized because of the struggle.

[595] I feel energized because of how difficult it was to hike those mountains up and down and chasing those elk around and having things blow out and getting back to the lodge and being so tired that you could just barely eat your food and then I'm passing out almost like out of, as I'm done eating.

[596] And then I crash, and the alarm goes off at 5 o 'clock at the morning, and then you're out there in the dark doing it again.

[597] Yeah.

[598] And then to have success.

[599] So to understand that you can push through things and you can get better and you can practice things and you can get better.

[600] And that applies to everything in life.

[601] It does.

[602] It's a discipline, but it's discipline like almost no other because it's not just a discipline.

[603] It's a discipline that also sustains you and your family.

[604] And it's a discipline that involves like real critical moments of life.

[605] and death.

[606] Like when I was drawing back on that bull and I'm looking at this bull through a very small window where I could shoot between these two trees, 32 yards away, and Colton, who was the guy paused this bull, he made a cow sound like right where that bull needed to stop.

[607] Like the bull walked in, he calcalled it stopped, and that critical moment where you have to make a perfect shot in a split second.

[608] The intensity is skyrocketing.

[609] It's like nothing else.

[610] Yeah.

[611] It's, it's, and to do it, and to do it successfully, and to have that elk die in seconds and have that elk wander off 20 yards, like seeing it bleed out of both sides, knowing this is it.

[612] And this is probably, no, not probably, definitely, unless he falls off a cliff, this is the cleanest, fastest death this thing is ever going to have.

[613] Yeah, yeah, no, and, and, um, and I'm going to eat it tonight.

[614] Yeah, it's, I don't know, there's so much reverence in the moment.

[615] What I like, and we talked about this film and capturing it, and hopefully what the message we can convey with the film.

[616] But you did a great job after that shot of really just, I guess, verbalizing how you felt then and kind of everything you just said, but more authentic because you were there.

[617] It was thin, it was real, and the bull was laying there dead.

[618] and it's um i don't know it's intense i wish there's a way people could get it i think these kind of conversations help a little bit and i know for people listening there's some people that go oh you guys are redundant you're just defending hunting again so boring next anytime i see a guy with the baseball hat on so i almost didn't wear a hat today but why baseball hats they don't like baseball hats excuse me i got it i've been coughing forever um no they don't like What about baseball hats?

[619] They don't like baseball hats.

[620] Where's this coming from?

[621] I saw it on your comments.

[622] You got to stop reading those.

[623] I know.

[624] I think mostly.

[625] What kind of hats they like?

[626] Berets?

[627] I'm a painter.

[628] I love the arts.

[629] A t -shirt I wanted to make up.

[630] No, I'm not going to say it.

[631] I'm not going to say it.

[632] My t -shirt ideas sometimes aren't the greatest.

[633] Or most positive.

[634] They're hilarious when no one's around.

[635] They can be funny.

[636] The one about rain gear is awesome.

[637] Oh, my God.

[638] So I try to be positive.

[639] I mean, yeah, anyway.

[640] Well, positive except when you're just being funny.

[641] See, that's like, that's what I do for a living.

[642] Yeah.

[643] Like, when people say, well, that's pretty negative.

[644] Well, it's not really, because I don't mean it.

[645] Yeah.

[646] You know, like my friends will say some of the rudest shit about me, and I'll laugh my ass off.

[647] Yeah.

[648] Because I know they're just being funny.

[649] You mean it a little bit.

[650] You mean it a little bit, but that's what makes it funny.

[651] Yeah.

[652] If you didn't mean it at all, if there was no truth to it at all, it would be no human.

[653] to it at all um i i wanted to touch on this uh you know we talk about the struggle and the uh the hardship um adam green tree our friend you know he he had in a lot of people here followed along on his journey and tell everybody what would happen yeah and his journey will be so he hunted three different states over the course of about three weeks and uh by himself by himself solo in the back country with a tiny little tent yeah he hunted Colorado then he went to a Montana then he ended up killing a bull in Idaho if you look on the surface of it if you didn't understand you'd think oh he hunted three states and he killed a five point bull wow that was you know that's a lot of effort for that but to him and to people who who embrace struggle it's it's not just a five point bull died that was a journey and that was the end of the journey and there were six And there was, you know, there was tons of failure along the way.

[654] Well, the best part about it was that he documented the entire thing on Instagram.

[655] Yeah, he did.

[656] He did it on his Instagram story.

[657] And I let people know, I put up a bunch of posts about it.

[658] And one of the posts that sent his followers skyrocketing was him holding a pistol.

[659] And then in the distance, he took a photo this crazy bastard.

[660] Yeah.

[661] In the moment, there's a fucking giant grizzly standing on its hind legs looking at him from, it looked like no more than 50, 60 yards away.

[662] Yeah.

[663] And he's holding up a pistol.

[664] And I said that it's one of the most, like you could see it there.

[665] Yeah.

[666] That looks like it may be at the most probably a hundred.

[667] Oh, that's a video.

[668] So it'll, I think it stands up here.

[669] Oh, is this his video?

[670] Yeah.

[671] She comes up to the third time.

[672] It's not going to be good.

[673] That look, that gun looks like it's 200 years old.

[674] I don't think it is.

[675] I think it's just out of focus.

[676] Oh.

[677] But yeah.

[678] I mean, that, you know, that's a phone video.

[679] So, I mean, it's way closer than it looks.

[680] Yeah, keep standing up to try to figure out where he is and what he's doing.

[681] And in a moment like that, they just keep standing up.

[682] I don't want to shoot up.

[683] I just can't imagine what it would be like there.

[684] Being out there for 20 plus days by yourself.

[685] A moment like that is, you know, we're pretty used to being around people.

[686] I mean, if something happened here, I know you'd do whatever you could.

[687] Jamie would do whatever he could to help, you know, if we needed help.

[688] And that, nobody's coming.

[689] You're by 100%.

[690] He's by himself.

[691] And that, those type of experiences, where else are you going to get that?

[692] So he's in the mounds.

[693] There's a bear that the bear is just doing what bears do, right?

[694] And but that, and he's immersed himself into that world.

[695] And that's all part of this whole process and whole journey.

[696] But that's what intrigued everybody.

[697] that was following along is because that's as real as it gets.

[698] Yeah.

[699] You know, and he's surviving.

[700] And we talked about, you know, in our hunt, we got back tired.

[701] We were able to go to be dry and everything else.

[702] And that in a tent, you're getting in a tent.

[703] If you were wet when you got in the tent, you're going to be wet in the morning.

[704] You know what I mean?

[705] Yeah.

[706] I mean, it's, it's uncomfortable.

[707] It's uncomfortable.

[708] And I, you know, that's what I grew up doing because I had no other option.

[709] That was, I mean, I could hunt Oregon.

[710] for $25 on an elk tag and hunt public land.

[711] And that's all I did for decades because that was the only option I have.

[712] And that is difficult.

[713] And like I said, you question why you're doing it.

[714] And people would say, you know, I'd kill like a, if I saw a five point bowl, like what Adam killed, I would kill it and be happy.

[715] And people say, you don't need to work that hard to kill an elk.

[716] You know, you could kill that bull off a gravel road and, you know, a truck camp.

[717] but to me that's not what it was about it was about the whole journey in the wilderness and surviving and navigating and problem solving and yeah maybe it wasn't the biggest bull in the world but that's just one piece of the puzzle yeah there is a difference between and I have done this a few times between camping and staying in a lodge staying in the lodge is way nicer oh yeah you know we were in Utah we would go back to lodge and it was you know you and me and our buddy ben o 'brien was there and was lots of laughs and we're having a good time we'd all eat dinner together and just shoot the shit when you're in the woods and you're camping you're still in the woods you there's no like the lodge of civilization there's electricity there's hot water you can take a shower when you're in the woods you stay in the woods when you camp you wake up you're in the woods you're you're it's a more immersive experience and then there's the next level which is what adam did yeah in the woods by himself for many many many many days before he had success and then there's video of him after he shot that elk 20 whatever days in when you know he's like it's finally over yeah it's finally over it's like that guy just went on a vision quest you know so much respect for that you know I mean, he is so tough, and he's, bow hunting means, I don't know, if you, if you tried to explain, tried to explain what, what does bohunting mean to you?

[718] You couldn't do it with words for somebody like him, you know, and I would lump myself in there.

[719] It's like bohunting defines who I am, who he is, but, you know, it's, it's, I know I've done seminars before, and I've asked people, okay, if there's 100 or 200 people there, how many people have stayed out in the woods in the mountains by themselves for one night?

[720] Hardly, never, hardly anybody.

[721] I mean, how many people do you know that have stayed out in the woods by themselves for a night?

[722] I just know a few because I know hunters, like Remy and you and Green Tree and a few other folks.

[723] Right, so most people, they don't like to be by themselves.

[724] No, not in the woods.

[725] And they want to feel safe.

[726] Yeah.

[727] So for Adam to do that, for three, weeks that says something because hardly anybody ever does it right you know and so he did that loved it i think he loved it his video said he loved it it's hard to speak for him maybe he didn't always love it but no i i i can't speak for him but i can speak for myself and know that you don't always love it um there's times where i i would question like i said what am i doing is this worth it but you'd fight through that and then and then you'd you know come out stronger and be ready for the next challenge and hopefully it paid off I think any experience in nature is good for people I think we spend entirely too much time in cities entirely too much time indoors and buildings and artificial lighting and all that stuff I think any experience in nature at all is good for you it's just good to be grounded and literally grounded like to feel the ground and to understand that This is the wild world.

[728] This is the real world.

[729] This other thing is this nerfed out thing that we've sort of concocted as human beings.

[730] But the more time you spend in there, the more it reveals itself to you.

[731] And there's a weird, empty loneliness to true wilderness.

[732] Like when you're at the top of a mountain and you don't have any cell signal and you don't see a building anywhere as far as the eye can see, you don't see.

[733] We're nowhere near city when we're out there.

[734] When you sit up there and you look out and you hear a coyote howl, and you see an eagle fly overhead and you know you hear an elk bugle you just it's just there's nothing like it no it's the the real wild i mean these things they don't know you're a real thing they don't care they're not they care if you get close to them they'll run away but what they're there to do is what they've been doing for thousands of years yeah yeah and that's it's so different you talk about how you know we got to lax last night and i'm just walking around going and And I don't 100 % feel this way, but I'm like, I told you, I'm like, I hate people.

[735] Well, it's just, there was so many.

[736] It's like, we went from no people.

[737] Oh, and that's, it's so enriching and so, I don't know what.

[738] Yeah.

[739] I keep saying powerful.

[740] I don't know.

[741] It's a good word.

[742] I use it all the time.

[743] But hashtag, hashtag powerful.

[744] Yeah, powerful Joe Rogan.

[745] But in the mountains, it's, I don't know.

[746] It's so simple.

[747] Life is so simple.

[748] It is and it isn't, right?

[749] Because it's super complicated.

[750] Like to survive out there, you have to have a lot of things work in your favor.

[751] Yeah, but it's simple because either you survive or you don't.

[752] Yeah, but it's not that simple because it's like...

[753] Either you kill a bull or you don't.

[754] Or you eat berries.

[755] Adam made a lot of berries.

[756] Yeah, yeah.

[757] So, I mean, that's what I like.

[758] I like about that it's simple.

[759] Yeah.

[760] There's no, you know, there's no different social classes of people.

[761] There's no...

[762] That's very important, right?

[763] There's a thing that happens out there where you're clearly defined by your ability to perform under pressure only.

[764] Like, if you go out there and you're some famous rock star or something like that, here's some, you know, some guy who lives in a giant mansion and flies around a private jet and you own an island, but you choke when you're going to shoot a bull and you shoot it in the dick.

[765] Yeah.

[766] And everybody knows.

[767] You're a loser.

[768] You're a loser.

[769] Isn't that amazing?

[770] I mean, there's a leveling.

[771] There's out there, it's like the people who get respect, hunters get, I mean, if you, you know, if you can navigate, if you can see elk, if you can read blood, if you're blood trailing, you can, you got woodsmanship, you can unravel a blood trail, you can start a fire, you're here.

[772] Yeah.

[773] It doesn't matter about how much money you have or who you.

[774] you are if you can do any of that stuff well you're you're lower to me it was incredibly important to be able to perform during crunch time yeah because i wanted the respect of the people that also do it i wanted and to get that it was very important to be able to in that moment and i spent so much time thinking about it going over uh podcasts and uh all that joel turner stuff about target panic and about closed loop and open loop mind systems and how your brain functions under pressure and thinking about all these different things.

[775] I put a lot of thought to it.

[776] This might sound ridiculous to somebody who hasn't shot a bow that like, what?

[777] No, you just pull back and shoot, right?

[778] No. No. When you're looking at a 900 -pound forest horse with spears grown out of its head and it's screaming and there's one shot, you have one opportunity.

[779] And by the way, you only have one tag.

[780] And if you wound an animal, it's over.

[781] Yeah.

[782] If you just shot it in the ankle and it starts bleeding, guess what?

[783] Your tag's over.

[784] Yeah.

[785] The money that you spent is done.

[786] You failed.

[787] And that thing lives to be, you know, lives to be an elk and lives another day.

[788] For another day.

[789] And you go back, disappointed, and you have to start from scratch and rebuild yourself.

[790] Yeah.

[791] And that's good, too.

[792] The failure and the feeling of failure is the real motivator.

[793] That's what makes you run more miles, shoot more arrows, work hard.

[794] work hard, think about it, think your way through this thing.

[795] And to me that that leveling of the social classes is very important.

[796] You know, it's something that I think jujitsu does as well.

[797] There's another parallel in that because, and even comedy does that as well.

[798] Because if you're not funny, people don't laugh and they don't like you.

[799] Yeah.

[800] You know, like you have to be able to do the thing.

[801] And sometimes the thing that it doesn't work out.

[802] And then you feel like fucking terrible.

[803] Yeah.

[804] You know, and that leveling of the class.

[805] is that happens in bow hunting is, is hard as, I mean, I keep saying it's hard to describe because it really is.

[806] I think anything that's very difficult to do, you find out more about yourself.

[807] And when you find out more about yourself, you have two options.

[808] Either you can go into denial or ignore it or, you know, fade back, or you could face it and struggle more and get better and really work at it.

[809] And that's where I think bow hunting.

[810] shares a lot of its aspects with other difficult but yet important things in life.

[811] They become a vehicle for developing your human potential.

[812] Yeah.

[813] And running is like that too.

[814] Well, look what it's done for you.

[815] I mean, your passion and obsession with elk hunting is what led you to being this crazy ultra -marathon runner.

[816] I mean, that's really what started it all off.

[817] Yeah, I wanted to be better in the mountains.

[818] Yeah, better at...

[819] And I never really understood until I hunted with you.

[820] Because when you would run up the top of a fucking hill, when an elk would go over the top and you'd run up the hill.

[821] And I would just be struggling to go a quarter of the way.

[822] And I'd have to take a break.

[823] And then I'd go a little further and take a break.

[824] And you were over up there and you weren't even out of breath.

[825] And then I thought about it.

[826] I'm like, okay, I get it.

[827] I get this now.

[828] Like, there's a lot to this.

[829] Yeah.

[830] Yeah.

[831] And that's, you know, you talked about, it is.

[832] It's crazy that bow hunting has done what it's done.

[833] I've been on Joe Rogan nine times.

[834] Is this the nine times?

[835] Nine times.

[836] And, you know, I don't, for me personally, because I just feel like I'm okay at bow, I'm decent of bow hunting, and it's like, just the fact that I was even here one time seems surreal, but I just, I want to think, I don't know, I was thinking about this earlier, is because of bow hunting, And people I know people will say Because I again I read the comments But don't read the comments They'll talk about that Oh must be nice for Joe To be able to hunt Wherever I mean where we were It was amazing out It was like That's where we outcunded It's where I feel like I've had to work my whole life To get to To dream To killing bulls On public land To starting with a spike bowl To 30 years of this And it's a dream And it's like I will never take for granted what it means to hunt where we were hunting in Utah but it seems crazy to think that you grew up in Massachusetts right yeah right you had the whole different journey you weren't some kid bow hunting but you were a comedian and a fighter and whatever but bowhunting brought us together and we shared this this life -changing time in Utah from completely opposite paths And so whether that's, you know, you took your path to get to the best out hunting in the world, I took my path.

[837] It doesn't matter.

[838] We're hunters there sharing the mountain and taking on the challenge together.

[839] And that's what bull hunting does.

[840] It's like eliminates, you know, you're here in L .A. It eliminates everything.

[841] And we're the same.

[842] Yeah.

[843] All very difficult pursuits.

[844] But we're the same there.

[845] And it's, it's, there's.

[846] not very many things that can do that.

[847] We named a few of them.

[848] Yeah.

[849] But it's just like when you think about it like that, it seems unreal.

[850] It does seem unreal.

[851] But that also sort of really clearly defines why this discipline is so important to you and I. Well, and it's, I don't know, I think it's, and hopefully we've opened the eyes of others to see that, I don't know, to want that same type of experience.

[852] You know, you might not be the same.

[853] It might not, Not everybody's going to get to where we hunted in Utah because it's like...

[854] Oh, he's had a great public land hunt.

[855] I mean, I was listening to Brian Barney's podcast, the Eastman Elevated Podcast, where he took a couple of buddies when I was actually cutting up meat today, I was listening to this, took a couple buddies with him on a public land hunt in Montana.

[856] And they got into some elk, and they seemed like they had an amazing time.

[857] Yeah.

[858] I mean, it's the same sort of thing.

[859] It's an amazing adventure.

[860] You know, it's available in a lot of different forms to a lot of people.

[861] Yeah.

[862] And there's a lot of people that go, oh, you know, this is bullshit.

[863] You know, Joe gets to do this and Joe's lucky and this and that.

[864] I think it's hashtag bullshit.

[865] Hashtag bullshit.

[866] Yeah, guess what?

[867] I'm lucky.

[868] I've always been lucky.

[869] I don't know what to do.

[870] You want me to be unlucky?

[871] I can't.

[872] I'm just lucky.

[873] I mean, maybe I'll be unlucky someday.

[874] But you've worked your ass off.

[875] Yeah.

[876] That's also part of luck.

[877] Part of luck is you have to, it's, what is that phrase?

[878] Like, luck is when opportunity meets preparation.

[879] You know, that's what some people say.

[880] It's that, but it's also luck.

[881] you know there's there's people that are luckier than you you know and by the way there's people that are way fucking luckier than me you don't think Justin Bieber's lucky than me that little cunt he's never been poor in his life he's worth a hundred million bucks and he's like 20 years old yeah he probably has no common his body he's probably every day just drained he probably just has to eat raw eggs all day just to try to just try to keep up yeah stay hydrated Justin stay hydrated kid yeah we're counting on you I mean that little fucker's way more lucky Keep hammering.

[882] There's always, literally, there's always going to be people that are luckier than you.

[883] And some of it is luck and some of it is courage.

[884] Some of it is putting your ass out there.

[885] Some of it is trying things.

[886] One of the things that I always like to tell people that I think you should do is do shit that's difficult.

[887] It's very important to struggle.

[888] And it doesn't mean bow hunting.

[889] I like yoga class for the same reason.

[890] I go in there, it's me and a bunch of housewives.

[891] And they're kicking ass more than I am.

[892] I mean, I watch these ladies, and I watch their mental strength and fortitude while they're grueling their way through this 104 degree temperature, holding these poses.

[893] I'm watching the sweat pour off their face, and they're not complaining.

[894] They're just in there grinding.

[895] You know, and that's fucking so important in this life.

[896] This life doesn't have enough of that.

[897] There's not enough struggle.

[898] You don't get to know yourself without struggle.

[899] You don't get to know your boundaries unless you push them.

[900] You don't get to know who you are, really, unless you're tested.

[901] And there's too many weak pussies out there.

[902] There's a lot of pussies out there.

[903] And so those are the people that drive me crazy because everything you just said is so true.

[904] But there's so many people that would rather stand on the sidelines and say, oh, must be nice.

[905] Yeah, it must be nice to be blah, blah, blah.

[906] It's like, shut up.

[907] Yeah, it is nice.

[908] It's awesome.

[909] You worked your ass off.

[910] Come follow me, bitch.

[911] Yeah.

[912] Come do what I do.

[913] Good luck.

[914] Those are the people.

[915] Well, you were talking about running with someone, you were involved, and someone was behind you, and they were like running, run and running your tail, and you're like, oh, let's see how that works out for you.

[916] It's like, it's not, it's not even a cocky thing.

[917] It's like, there's no way a regular person is going to keep up with you in a race.

[918] It's just not going to happen.

[919] Yeah.

[920] Let's see how this works out.

[921] Yeah.

[922] And that's just because they're not getting up at 5 o 'clock in the morning.

[923] I follow your Instagram.

[924] You're, you're fucking running before work.

[925] Right.

[926] You know, you're running a marathon a day for people that don't know.

[927] You're literally preparing right now.

[928] Whakam is in the middle of bow hunting season.

[929] He takes a little bit of time off of this fucking insane preparation, which is good because it allows his body to heal.

[930] But he's going to compete in the Moab in October that is 238 fucking miles.

[931] It's a straight race.

[932] It's not 238 miles over the course of a month.

[933] No, no, no. It's 238 miles from beginning, ready, go to the...

[934] The race is over, 238 miles, it'll take, what, three days?

[935] I don't know.

[936] We don't know.

[937] 78 hours to do 205, right?

[938] The Bigfoot 200 that you did.

[939] He ran 205 fucking miles in 78 hours.

[940] So shut your mouth.

[941] Yeah.

[942] You know, if you think, oh, it must be nice.

[943] Must be nice.

[944] There's levels to this life.

[945] There's levels to this, this amount, to dedication, to discipline, to drive, to focus, to obsession.

[946] There's levels to it.

[947] And if you're sitting on the sideline going, must be nice.

[948] Guess what, pussy?

[949] You're not doing this.

[950] This is Moab here.

[951] God damn.

[952] Look at this horrendous fucking terrain.

[953] They're running on a mountain.

[954] Jesus Christ, look at this video.

[955] For people who are listening only, I urge you to please go.

[956] Jamie, what is the video?

[957] Official trailer for the Moab 200.

[958] Moab 200.

[959] I love how they call it 200.

[960] Meanwhile, it's 238.

[961] You're like, oh, I do it.

[962] No, you're not, pussy.

[963] You got another 38 miles.

[964] No!

[965] But the terrain is fucking insane.

[966] Yeah.

[967] It's insane.

[968] So that's Moab.

[969] I've never run in Moab, which is the draw for me. You know, I've been in the mountains a lot.

[970] I haven't been...

[971] What's going to be tough about this race specifically is you see how there's no shade.

[972] So that's what we call that is it's exposed.

[973] You're exposed the whole time to the sun.

[974] And that looks like Candace right there, who's a race director.

[975] She's running in this trailer right here.

[976] So this is her brainchild, basically.

[977] She must be a savage.

[978] She is.

[979] She's a total stud.

[980] I mean, she's...

[981] God, look at this terrain.

[982] She's run a bunch of...

[983] Done really well in 100 -mile ultras.

[984] This terrain is fucking magnificent.

[985] Right.

[986] So being exposed like that, that just sucks everything out of you.

[987] The sun can just sap you.

[988] And keeping your skin covered as well as you can, keeping hydrated, keeping fuel.

[989] up that's just the name of the game you know what shoes will you be running in um it'll be you know my underarmor fat tires is what i'll be running in because that much pounding for that long um the cushion for my body is important and imperative basically and the fat tires the underarm fat tires how much different are they than the underarmor fat tire hunting boots because i know they have those two the souls are similar similar yeah is much cushioning yeah okay so you get a good amount of cushion and also a good amount of traction, right?

[990] Because basically the fat tires, the reason why they're named that way is because they essentially, the bottoms of them are like a BMX road racing, mountain bike tire.

[991] Yeah, they had a mountain back tire called fat tire.

[992] And I think Michelin made it.

[993] So Michelin makes these same souls for the underarmor shoes.

[994] And that's what I generally trained in because running a marathon a day as you, that's what I was trying to do before season.

[995] Season is kind of, um, um, Hopefully it's going to pay off.

[996] Yeah, hunting season has interrupted my training.

[997] But I sort of had this game plan where this would be the time I'd recover.

[998] So my whole training slogan is train hard, hunt easy, meaning that I want my training to be harder than any hunt I could go on.

[999] So the hunt seems like it's easier, easier than my training.

[1000] And that's kind of what's been going on.

[1001] I mean, Utah country was tough.

[1002] was high it was steep there's lots of walking but it was easier than running a marathon a day right so i felt i felt good there's the fat tires yep so those shoes also allow you to run over like sharp rocks and things and it'll absorb that so it'll give your feet some protection obviously this is an incredibly difficult pursuit that you're about yeah there they are there that that was a photo back home but uh um yeah those shoes they've worked well for me uh they're great they've kept my body healthy with all the pounding, you know, people always ask about knees and hips and everything else.

[1003] Yeah, you know, I've run a lot in those minimalist shoes, but I don't think you could, I mean, maybe you could.

[1004] Does anybody run these fucking ultra -marathons in minimalist shoes?

[1005] No. You just can't, right?

[1006] Not that I've ever seen.

[1007] It just seems like it's too much.

[1008] But there's, you know, everybody's different.

[1009] Right.

[1010] There probably is somebody who can't because they're 20 -some years old and they feel great and they're for whatever reason.

[1011] Maybe they've been doing it in those shoes for a long time.

[1012] Their body mechanics are different than mine.

[1013] You know, they're lighter than me. So, yeah, maybe they could.

[1014] So I never lump anybody in like, oh, you can't do this or you can't do that.

[1015] They might be able to.

[1016] I can't.

[1017] That's another thing, too, about you is that you're lifting a lot of weights too because you need it for, you also need strength for hunting.

[1018] You need strength to pull the bow back.

[1019] You need strength to be able to pack out the meat.

[1020] There's a lot of other aspects to, like, what you need out of your body.

[1021] Right.

[1022] That maybe the regular ultramarathon endurance runner doesn't.

[1023] Yeah, it's, you know, I've tried to, I've tweaked my training over the years.

[1024] There was a time where all I was doing was running 20 miles a day, not lifting, hardly eating, and I was down to 150 -some pounds.

[1025] So now I try to, I, that didn't work that great for hunting because I'm trying to pack meat in the mounds.

[1026] You just felt tired?

[1027] Yeah, I just didn't feel, I just didn't feel at my best.

[1028] I could still kill.

[1029] I could still get the job done, but I felt like I wasn't at my best.

[1030] So now I feel like what I do now, this is a small shirt.

[1031] So it's like, don't be tricked by that I'm filling out the shirt too much.

[1032] That's size small?

[1033] Size small.

[1034] How dare you?

[1035] That's because of Jed.

[1036] Fucking Jed.

[1037] I know.

[1038] He's got a grateful dead shirt out of there.

[1039] I'm like, hey, you got any size mediums for me?

[1040] And he's like, oh, they're all gone.

[1041] So here I am I stuck with the small.

[1042] So it might look like I'm more jacked than I really am.

[1043] You're pretty jacked, dude.

[1044] I've worked out with you.

[1045] Stop.

[1046] But it's just unusual for someone who's an.

[1047] endurance athlete who does like these long you know 200 plus mile races to actual be packing on a lot of muscle yeah it's one of the reasons why whenever someone would talk about ufc fighters not being able to make the weight or you know whatever you know complaints they have about not being able to make weight i'm like my friend cam literally you make your body eat itself to drop down you were at 180 plus pounds before you started and then when you went to run the big foot 200 you had, you were burning 3 ,000 calories and eating 2 ,000, right?

[1048] Yeah, 1 ,000 calorie deficit.

[1049] So if I was burning 4, I ate 3, or if I was burning 3 to eat 2, something like that.

[1050] So I tried to be at a deficit of 1 ,000 calories every day.

[1051] And your body was just eating itself.

[1052] Yeah, so when I went into that race, I was 160, what was I, 165, and I had been in 184, so I lost 19 pounds and just that calorie deficit and just the key with those, is being light.

[1053] You know, the lighter you are.

[1054] I mean, the best ultra runners are generally 140 pounds, maybe six foot.

[1055] You know, I mean, just light.

[1056] And that's just to be efficient, that works faster.

[1057] Longer legs is more efficient?

[1058] Is that why it's better to be six foot and really skinny?

[1059] No, I'm just, I mean, maybe I'm just kind of generalizing.

[1060] But that seems like those are good runners are about that size.

[1061] Is that like Goggins, David Goggins?

[1062] I think he's a little bigger.

[1063] He's more muscular than most.

[1064] Yeah, and he's, but he's a freak.

[1065] He's a mental freak.

[1066] He's a freak.

[1067] That guy's so inspiring.

[1068] You ever listen to him talk about mental toughness?

[1069] All the time.

[1070] I listen to, he did a podcast with Rich Roll.

[1071] Oh, there's another guy I love.

[1072] Yeah, and so I listen to him on that podcast.

[1073] I've listened to it like three times because anytime you think that, oh, you got it hard or you can't do this or you can't do that.

[1074] Come on.

[1075] There's levels.

[1076] Come on.

[1077] There's levels.

[1078] He, and that's another one, you can't lump everybody into the same category and say, well, if David Goggins did this, you can't do what David Goggins, because you're not David Goggins.

[1079] If you want to become David Goggins, good fucking love.

[1080] I don't stop when I'm tired.

[1081] I stop when I'm done.

[1082] Yeah, yeah, he's intense.

[1083] He has another saying that I think of all the time when I'm running that most people quit at 40%.

[1084] Yeah, I know.

[1085] And that's, and that's 100 % true.

[1086] And I found that, you know, there's lots of times, well, I want to quit.

[1087] And I think of...

[1088] Click on that picture right there, Jamie, the, the, where he sees abs that you just had just had your cursor yeah that's a jacked dude for someone who runs hundreds of miles and he did you know he was over 300 pounds twice in his life yeah fat and lethargic and he wanted to be a navy seal so he's he's over 300 there they said he had to lose something like a hundred or 80 pounds and just a number of months and he did yeah and didn't he also break a world record in suffering is the true test of life ooh No, he broke the world record in pull -up.

[1089] That's tense.

[1090] Yeah, that's what I was going to say.

[1091] Yeah.

[1092] How many pull -ups did he do?

[1093] 4 ,030.

[1094] In how many minutes?

[1095] 17 hours.

[1096] 24 -hour pull -up there.

[1097] What in the fuck?

[1098] But he did it.

[1099] Let's see some video.

[1100] In 17 hours.

[1101] What do his shoulders look like?

[1102] What's the inside?

[1103] It's just all scar tissue holding that thing together?

[1104] Let's see if they could find a video, Jamie.

[1105] Because I've seen a video of him doing David completed 2 ,58 pull - in 566 sets for a total of 4 .6 pull -ups per set, 1 ,000 pull -ups in two hours, 48 minutes, and 2 ,000 pull -ups in 3 ,034 minutes.

[1106] But at 13 .5 hours in, he felt something his wrist snap and was not able to go on.

[1107] An x -ray at 1030 confirmed a partial tear in his forearm.

[1108] Wow.

[1109] So that's when he failed twice to break the record and then he ended up getting it.

[1110] Wow.

[1111] See if you can get to a video.

[1112] because there's a video of him doing it and it's just savage He would do like He puts his forearm apart He would do like sets of five So he'd do five Then drop down Take a break for a sec Do five more And he kept doing that is what I When I saw that Well you know That's that Pavel Tatsulin's idea of Strength Training I think I've told you that Yeah That he believes that you should only Like if you can do sets of more than five that what you're doing is bodybuilding.

[1113] Right.

[1114] And you should do five with very clean technique, take a big break, and then do another five, and then just keep doing it for long periods of time.

[1115] Like, ideally, maybe some people don't have the time to do those kinds of workouts, but he believes you should do, like, with five to ten minute rest in between workout sets and just do a bunch of sets like that.

[1116] And I've been doing that for a while now.

[1117] And I feel less sore, less fatigue.

[1118] I can do it more often.

[1119] And I just feel like you make better progress that way.

[1120] Yeah.

[1121] I think there's something to it.

[1122] I think we have a lot of, like, meathead ideas in our head of what you're supposed to do as far as working out, as far as, you know, going to failure all the time with heavy weights.

[1123] That's the only way to get strong.

[1124] I don't necessarily think that's true.

[1125] No, and, but I will say everyone's different.

[1126] Yeah, but here's the thing where I should have a caveat.

[1127] If you're a power lifter, I should shut the fuck up.

[1128] Because if you're, all you're trying to do is, like, massive, you know, amounts of weight, like a lot of these.

[1129] guys do well then you know they're they're going to push their body quite a bit more than i am yeah i see guys all the time do things that most people would say you should never do yeah and they have a lot of success yeah i mean nobody's going to say you should run a marathon every day they're going to say that's a good way to get injured and that's too much and your body you're not you're not getting the most out of your body nobody's like when i lift i try to do tons of reps you know at least 20 reps per set but you're doing lighter weights yeah you're not you're not not trying to go to failure with heavy weights.

[1130] Try to go to failure with everything.

[1131] If 20 doesn't get it, then I'll do 40.

[1132] You know, so it's...

[1133] But you're not trying to go to failure with like 305 for bench or anything like that.

[1134] Yeah, see, that's what I'm talking about.

[1135] And that's where people get hurt.

[1136] No, but...

[1137] So, people need to find what works for them, basically.

[1138] I mean, there's a lot of schools of thought on like, okay, for the average person, do this.

[1139] Right.

[1140] And that works for most people.

[1141] But it's not going to work for David Goggins or for...

[1142] It depends on your goals and your body.

[1143] and your ability and what you're trying to accomplish and your dedication and what is a standard routine for someone who's trying to run an ultramarathon so if you're running a marathon a day is that's is that a normal thing like what do they what did you guys communicate with each other because it's only a fucking handful of you yeah i don't know i have you talk to those people or just doing what you think you should do yeah i i don't i've never talked to anybody about training what's no you don't talk to any of those people so you just go out there and do your shit yeah what a freak no i i i there's guys You know, there's guys that train, I'm trying to think of, oh, Jim Walmsie, and he's amazing.

[1144] I mean, I have zero ability compared to this guy.

[1145] I think he's about 26.

[1146] He lives down in Arizona.

[1147] And he's been trying to break the Western States 100 Ultramarathon record for two years now.

[1148] Last year, he was on pace to break it.

[1149] He was like at mile 90.

[1150] and, I don't know, 20, 40 -some minutes ahead of course record pace, took the wrong turn, because this is in the mountains, it starts at Squaw Valley and ends in Auburn, took the wrong trail and went off course and ended up finishing 20th, you know, because he had to backtrack and way behind, it's mentally broke him.

[1151] So he was going to come back this year better than ever in his training, and he'd be like running, you know, 140 -mile weeks.

[1152] So 20 miles a day, probably 150 mile weeks.

[1153] There are some guys that do more than that.

[1154] But anyway, this year he came in and he again went ahead, was ahead of course record pace and an ultramarathon term or maybe a running term in general is he blew up at mile 76, I think, and had to drop.

[1155] So he went too hard.

[1156] Yep.

[1157] So when he's doing...

[1158] What's the record?

[1159] What is he trying to break?

[1160] What's the actual record?

[1161] The record for that is like four.

[1162] 14 something, 14 hours.

[1163] Now, what is the, there's a guy who just broke the ultra -marathon record for a flat, like a flat 100, not in the mountains like you do, but a flat one.

[1164] And he's on an off, like a high -fat diet, right?

[1165] Isn't he on?

[1166] Jamie, we talked about that guy recently.

[1167] He's on a ketogenic diet.

[1168] Yeah.

[1169] And he broke the - He was on a track.

[1170] It was a 24 -hour record and he ran 100 and I can't remember how many miles it was.

[1171] Yeah.

[1172] Yeah, but you felt like maybe for the mountains you might want to alter your diet.

[1173] Like maybe that's not the...

[1174] For me. Yeah.

[1175] I mean...

[1176] Have you ever tried like a fat -based diet or a ketogenic diet?

[1177] I don't know what you call it, but my buddies, I lived with Back Home, Nick Hammond and Eric McCormick, they both do bodybuilding competitions.

[1178] Outlaw strength.

[1179] But, right, exactly, outlaw strength.

[1180] I love that guy.

[1181] Good dude.

[1182] And Nick the trainer dude.

[1183] Yeah.

[1184] And so to get lean for those shows, basically you cut the carbs out.

[1185] Right.

[1186] And as many proteins and greens as you want.

[1187] So you can have salad and steak.

[1188] So I've done that and I've got down to 6 % body fat just to see what it was like.

[1189] And that's essentially what that is.

[1190] And do you feel like you perform any differently on that?

[1191] Terrible.

[1192] You felt terrible?

[1193] Terrible.

[1194] What felt terrible about it?

[1195] Oh, no strength, no endurance, because no carbs.

[1196] Hmm, so zero carbs Like, no, no, no, like Just vegetables for carbs?

[1197] No, on a low carb day, it'd be 50 to 75 grams of carbs Did you ever get your blood sugar check to see if you're ketogenic and No, no, no I don't do that.

[1198] It's interesting because I feel like this, it's very important to talk about That everybody's body is different Yeah You know, who's a great proponent of this is Rob Wolf And one of the real interesting things about Rob Wolfe's a scientist And a very, very smart guy when it comes to nutrition and health writes about books about paleo diets.

[1199] But one of the more interesting things that Rob does is he will eat the same thing as his wife and they'll both test themselves, test their blood, and he'll do it on video.

[1200] And his wife is consistently more adaptive than he is.

[1201] Like they're eating the same thing.

[1202] But his body, for whatever reason, doesn't perform as well processing carbohydrates as hers does.

[1203] I see.

[1204] And she can stay in a ketogenic state and eat far more carbs than he can.

[1205] Okay.

[1206] I'm going to let you in on a little secret.

[1207] Oh.

[1208] I don't even know what the hell ketogenic means.

[1209] I've heard keto this, ketogenic.

[1210] I'm like, okay.

[1211] What is it?

[1212] Okay.

[1213] In a state of ketosis, your body burns off fat instead of carbohydrates.

[1214] And you have to have an adaptation period where your body goes from carbohydrates to fats as a fuel source.

[1215] and your brain uses ketones, and your body uses ketones for fuel instead of carbohydrates and glucose.

[1216] Is there an advantage?

[1217] Yes, and I would suggest that anybody who's interested in this, go to my podcast with Dom de Augustino.

[1218] It was four months ago, maybe, or Tim Ferriss's podcast with Dom de Augustino is also an excellent resource.

[1219] and there's advantages in terms of your body's ability to fight off disease and cancer, cognitive ability improves.

[1220] Maybe you'd be smarter, bro.

[1221] I doubt it.

[1222] But could I bo -hound better?

[1223] 9 -94.

[1224] Episode 9 -94 of this podcast.

[1225] Yeah, you'd bo -hunt awesome in it.

[1226] Well, I just think you need a lot of fat, though.

[1227] And maybe with your diet, you were not taking in enough fat.

[1228] Like, you have to have a lot of fat.

[1229] like animal fat, avocados.

[1230] Yeah, that's one thing Nick told me the other day because I was just like, we lifted, and I'm so weak, weak because I was running so much, right?

[1231] And so we did it, we did just a few quick calculations.

[1232] And if you run a marathon a day at my weight, it was, and then just living, because just living, you're going to burn 1 ,700 calories a day or me, then plus the 3 ,300 or something that I'd burn.

[1233] when running a marathon so it was like 5 ,000 calories and I was eating three so I was 2 ,000 deficit um that's too much yeah so he said I needed to just ramp up the fats you know so it started hammering nuts avocados things like that and I actually did I was feeling better we lifted again and I felt better so yeah I think that's the big part of the ketogenic diet that people get wrong is that your ketogenic diet is primarily fats and then you have an adequate amount of protein dependent upon how much activity you do you obviously do a lot of activity you would need more um protein than most and i think you would also probably need more actual carbohydrates than most yeah and still stay in ketosis i think if that's probably one of the reasons why you were so tired and you felt weak but also i think this thing that you're doing most people are just not going to do no they're not gonna burn three and eat two they're just not there's no blueprint print for getting ready for 200 mile race.

[1234] So it's, I'm trying to figure it out as I go.

[1235] So you don't talk to, this is what freaks me out, is you don't talk to other ultramarathon people.

[1236] I hate people.

[1237] But you like me?

[1238] I do.

[1239] No. I like, I like, I like, I like, I like, I like, most people fall short of your expectations.

[1240] Yeah, I like winners.

[1241] I like strong people.

[1242] I like people who don't judge other people.

[1243] I like people.

[1244] you don't like me then.

[1245] I judge everybody I judge you I judge Jamie no I have fucking shirt he's wearing no I mean I just don't like complainers right and so there's not a there's not a lot of people who I don't know I want to respect people well I think that with the level of output that you are putting out and the amount of focus and dedication to these things the amount of obsession to like performing at a 200 plus mile race any whiny, whiny bullshit that you hear is just so much more magnified than what I hear.

[1246] Yeah.

[1247] You know, like, if I hear whiny stuff from my seven -year -old, it becomes funny, because I start going, oh, are you going to be okay?

[1248] Are you going to be okay?

[1249] And she's like, stop it, Daddy.

[1250] And I go, what are you going to do?

[1251] You're going to beat me up?

[1252] I go, come on, punk.

[1253] And then she'll get off the couch and she'll kick me, and then we'll have a little fun and play around together.

[1254] Right.

[1255] But she's seven.

[1256] Yeah.

[1257] If I hear whiny stuff from a grown adult, I'm like, Jesus, fucking Christ.

[1258] We live in a world where if it's cold out, you press a button and it gets warm.

[1259] Yeah.

[1260] And we live in a world war.

[1261] Water, the thing that keeps us alive that people struggle to find in most of the free world comes out of a fucking, you have a lever.

[1262] Yeah.

[1263] And you're sink, in every sink, in every bathroom where you can just drink.

[1264] Fresh water, glug, glug, glug, glug, glug, glug.

[1265] It's like, what are you complaining about?

[1266] The fuck are you complaining about.

[1267] You're complaining about because Joe Rogan can go elk hunting here and you can.

[1268] Hashtag bullshit.

[1269] Yeah.

[1270] I mean, so that's the kind of stuff that must be nice.

[1271] I pretty much don't listen to anybody except people who I know share my mindset about not just on running or whatever, just about on life.

[1272] But that's why I'm just working hard.

[1273] As to why you don't have a group of people that you're close to that are also ultra marathon runners that you can compare notes with.

[1274] There's not a lot of people that do those.

[1275] I mean, yeah, my brother does ultras.

[1276] My brother is a stud.

[1277] How odd.

[1278] Some genetics in that family, huh?

[1279] Wasn't your dad as a big time?

[1280] athlete too yeah yeah actually my dad I have no talent compared to my dad so my dad was an ultra just not an ultra freak he's just an athletic freak so but my brother um he does a lot of miles we don't really even we just kind of do our own thing we know what it takes you got to pound out miles your dad was trying to compete in the olympics right no no no he uh I think he had Olympic potential so what happened is he was a high jumper and a long jumper and uh you know i just i took my daughter was doing pole vaulting last year and uh and they kind of hurt my dad was a awesome pole volter and at south eugene high school he was the first athlete inducted in their uh hall of fame and uh they did that right before he died but which hall of fame uh in the south eugene hall of fame that high school there in eugene is um anyway So he, uh, these coaches at where my daughter was doing pole vaulting, they said, you know, after a few different practices, they'd heard about, you know, her and, and me and who her grandpa was.

[1281] And so he's, he comes up and he's like, he goes, was your, uh, was your dad, Bob Haynes?

[1282] I'm like, yeah.

[1283] And he goes, yeah, he was, uh, he was a legend around here because they went to high school together and now they've been coaching or other.

[1284] And he just, you know, said that everybody knew Bob Haynes.

[1285] And he just, you know, said that everybody knew Bob Haynes.

[1286] and he could do things nobody else could do and what his I think where he would have had his success was in high jump and he could high jump six four and what he did at that time was called the Western roll and so you just kind of roll over the bar and then he'd competed against Dick Fosbury and he invented the Fosbury flop so you'd go with your back to the bar and then kick your legs over and so they would compete and my dad got earned a scholarship at at Oregon for gymnastics and then oregon state for track when they had track and um ended up dropping out of both of both schools and um they said that he would he he could high jump six four doing the western role and they said well we're going to teach you the the fosberry flop and we should be able to add eight to 12 inches onto your jump so that would put him at seven feet and that would have been up there with dick fosberry and um and dick so my dad ended up dropping out of school and whatever happened, and I was born, and then my brother was born, you know, how life gets in the way.

[1287] And then meanwhile, Dick Fosbury went to the Olympics and won the gold medal.

[1288] So it's just, who knows what would have happened, but the fact is, he was an amazing athlete.

[1289] You know, if you just want to say just in high school, that's fine.

[1290] But, you know, he was a D -1 athlete in two different sports.

[1291] So I didn't, I never had that, I don't have that potential.

[1292] What I have is just a hard work ethic.

[1293] that's what I've translated so I without the Olympic or without the athletic talents maybe that he has I might have the work ethic that might match a talent and that's what I've used to do ultras because basically that's just being tough I mean I think I think it's just grinding and put in miles in training and then getting where everybody else wants to quit and pushing through in the races so you don't like have a few friends like I know what was the woman's name that runs Candace.

[1294] Candice bird.

[1295] You're friends with her and you're friends with your brother obviously who also runs Ultras.

[1296] Yeah.

[1297] Do you have other friends that do this that you like email with or text message?

[1298] No one.

[1299] No. Is that normal?

[1300] I don't know.

[1301] I mean, Ultrarunners in general are fucking weirdos.

[1302] Weirdos, but independent.

[1303] Right.

[1304] You know?

[1305] You have to be.

[1306] You can't rely on anybody.

[1307] You know, you can't who's going to tell me to go run a marathon every day?

[1308] Right.

[1309] Everybody's going to say, that's too much.

[1310] You don't need to do that.

[1311] So it's like, ultra runners are independent.

[1312] How long have they been doing ultra marathons?

[1313] Well, the Western States 100 started in 1974.

[1314] Whoa.

[1315] And what was the old times?

[1316] Like, what was like a good time back then to do 100?

[1317] What they started, see, the Western States started as a horse race, and they still do it.

[1318] With horses?

[1319] Yep, the Tivas Cup.

[1320] And so it's it's the same course with the same goal is cover 100 miles and under 24 hours.

[1321] So if you do that, you get the buckle and it says 100 miles one day.

[1322] And that's like the gold medal for an ultra runner.

[1323] So they have that same thing for horses.

[1324] And Gordon Ainsley was, he was in the horse race.

[1325] His horse came up lame and he said, well, I'm going to finish it on my own on his feet.

[1326] Jesus.

[1327] And so he did that.

[1328] And that's where Western States endurance race or run began.

[1329] Because it's like, well, let's just, let's just do this on our feet.

[1330] What a fucking animal that guy was.

[1331] Right.

[1332] Yeah.

[1333] And he still competes in the Western States right now.

[1334] He's old.

[1335] How old is he?

[1336] But he can't break 20.

[1337] He can't even break 30.

[1338] So you can get a buckle 100 miles one day if you break 24.

[1339] If you break 30, you get a cookie.

[1340] No, you get a buckle just as Western States endurance run.

[1341] If you don't break 30, you get nothing.

[1342] So he's tried for, I think when I ran it in 2010, God, what was he?

[1343] 60 -some, probably.

[1344] He, at the 30 -mile cutoff, he was at like the 90 -some mile cutoff.

[1345] Oh, the 30 -hour cut -off.

[1346] Yeah.

[1347] And so he was at the 90 -some mile at 30 -hour, so he was done.

[1348] Right.

[1349] But anyway, so he tries every year.

[1350] And he gets a long way for being 70.

[1351] So he's almost 70.

[1352] I think he's over 70 now.

[1353] Wow.

[1354] Yeah.

[1355] But anyway, so he started that and I was in the 70s.

[1356] And then nowadays, there's more races.

[1357] Every state, a lot of states out west have 100, you know, that's kind of the ultra scene is in the mountains out here.

[1358] Does he do the ones in the mountains?

[1359] Well, Western States is in the mountains.

[1360] It is in the mountains.

[1361] That starts at Squaw Valley.

[1362] So it's a lot of elevation.

[1363] There's a lot of.

[1364] that race has 41 ,000 feet of elevation change.

[1365] So you're gaining 18 ,000 and you're losing 21.

[1366] Overall, the course goes from Squaw Valley down to Auburn, but in the course of that, it's up and down, up and down, up and down.

[1367] And so you're gaining 18 over the course of the 100 miles and losing 21.

[1368] Wow.

[1369] Or something like that.

[1370] It's 41 ,000 difference.

[1371] And even running down is still difficult because you're decelerating.

[1372] You have to stop your momentum down.

[1373] So for a 70 -plus -year -old guy to do that.

[1374] That's one thing about it.

[1375] So you start at that race, and they always say, once you get into the canyon there, don't bomb downhill too fast, which is sort of early in the race.

[1376] It's before mile 50.

[1377] But if you bomb downhill too fast in the canyons, you'll blow your quads out.

[1378] You won't be finishing the race.

[1379] So you'll pound your quads too much.

[1380] So even though you could go fast downhill, you've got to take it easy because you've got to preserve your quads.

[1381] So your quads are getting used in the decelerating.

[1382] Yep.

[1383] Yeah, they're getting pounded.

[1384] So, and where we are now, and Candace Burt with her, she has, I think it's, so she's got Bigfoot, Tahoe, Moab.

[1385] Yeah, she's got three 200s.

[1386] So now her thing is 200s are the, or wait, 200s are the new 100 or whatever.

[1387] But anyway, it's the next level is 200 miles.

[1388] Well, yeah, she calls them 200s.

[1389] I'm like, 238.

[1390] Yeah, you've got to say 238.

[1391] That's not just rounding.

[1392] I don't know.

[1393] That's silly rounding.

[1394] She should call it a 238.

[1395] The Moab 238 is what it should be called.

[1396] Jesus, Candice.

[1397] Hey, it's her race.

[1398] Do you hate numbers?

[1399] It's her race.

[1400] There it is.

[1401] Arctic.

[1402] What?

[1403] Antarctic Ice Marathon?

[1404] Jesus Christ.

[1405] First of all, it's only 100K.

[1406] Can I could do that on his hands.

[1407] Yeah, 62 miles.

[1408] Yeah, I know.

[1409] That'd be fun.

[1410] Yeah, I guess.

[1411] Yeah.

[1412] Seems stupid.

[1413] Yeah.

[1414] Yeah.

[1415] Does he don't see anything but white, at least Moab.

[1416] You're looking at epic landscape.

[1417] It's a challenge, though.

[1418] You know, so it's all about a new challenge.

[1419] Now, how many people enter into Moab or Bigfoot 200?

[1420] How many people?

[1421] This year, when I did it last year, there was 74.

[1422] I think this year there was over 100.

[1423] And how many people finish?

[1424] When I did it 40 -some finished.

[1425] It's pretty impressive.

[1426] Yeah, most of people, I mean, if you say, sign up for 200 it's not like you're doing that on a whim right i mean you're prepared but didn't you do a hundred mile on a whim yeah god that was terrible yeah but just the idea that you could do a hundred mile race on a whim it was the most painful pain i've painful pain it's the most painful pain i've ever felt it was that why you started going to a marathon a day afterwards yeah i mean i i just knew that was in uh that was elijah bristow 24 hour run and that was in june and i'm like god i'm behind on my schedule on my training i got to just i got to grind out a big one so i'm like i'm going to do it so you decided to grind out a big one just to boost your training just to get you over the hump and beat myself up and so uh how does that benefit you just mentally or does it do it physically as well don't ask me questions like that it probably doesn't but i mean who will be thinking in the time where you thinking like this will like get me over the hump and it'll get me in shape or you're just like i'm just going to do it yeah during that race i i was turning into remember i said i i most People are weak pussies.

[1427] You became a weak pussy?

[1428] Definitely.

[1429] And so I was in that race and feeling miserable.

[1430] So I had, I was like, well, okay, maybe I'll quit at 30 miles.

[1431] 30 miles is still a good run.

[1432] Right.

[1433] I hadn't run 30 miles by June.

[1434] So I'm like, okay, that's, I'm just going to say this is just a training day.

[1435] Tomorrow I'll go home, rest up, and maybe I'll do another long run and that'll be good back to back.

[1436] because that's what you need for those for those the 200 mile races is most you're running is you're beat to shit so i mean you you know you got to be able to push through so the back -to -back training days are key so at 30 miles i was about at six hours and i'm like god maybe i feel awful but maybe i'll quit at 50 so i got to 50 miles and i'm like god okay maybe i'll run 12 hours So at 12 hours, I was at 61 miles.

[1437] And it was at night at night.

[1438] The race starts at 9 in the morning.

[1439] Night at night, I was at 61 miles.

[1440] I'm feeling awful.

[1441] But I'm like, oh, my God.

[1442] I'm going to be such a pussy if I quit.

[1443] Not because there's anything wrong with running a 12 -hour race and getting 61 miles.

[1444] That's awesome.

[1445] That's hard, super hard.

[1446] But for me, my goal was 24 hours.

[1447] I signed up for the 24 -hour race.

[1448] So 12 hours isn't 24.

[1449] So I'm like, well, I got 12 hours to get 39 miles.

[1450] I just did 61 miles and 12 hours.

[1451] So I could just milk it out and still get my 100, which was my goal, 24 hours, 100 miles.

[1452] So I thought, well, I got 12 hours to get 39 miles.

[1453] And it was the worst 12 hours of my life.

[1454] But I barely got it.

[1455] I mean, it was.

[1456] So I did 61 and 12.

[1457] And then it took me, took me 12 to get the 39, but I got 100 miles done.

[1458] And it was, you know, wasn't trained up, wasn't ready, but had all these reasons.

[1459] And I was running, thinking of all these excuses I could say.

[1460] And I could say that I cramped up.

[1461] And, you know, this is a good example of why you shouldn't, what, not, you know, push your body past his limit.

[1462] And I could just be all, get all these kudos for being smart.

[1463] And everybody would just say, it's okay.

[1464] you did great, but I would know.

[1465] I would know that I pushed out.

[1466] So I kept going.

[1467] And didn't you run 13 miles the next day?

[1468] Yeah.

[1469] Because you have to.

[1470] So my whole thing was...

[1471] Look at this.

[1472] Going 200 mile distance in an ultramarathon may be healthier than stopping at 100.

[1473] Holy shit.

[1474] How does that make sense?

[1475] Scroll up.

[1476] The pacing is different for the people they studied that were going just 100.

[1477] They were going slower, which led to...

[1478] Lots of different things.

[1479] I wish I could do that.

[1480] The reason 200 miles aren't as fatigued is the 100 -mile group was due to pacing.

[1481] The Tordesquianz, how do you say that?

[1482] G -E -A -N -T -S, Tor de Gaence.

[1483] Runners average 3 .4 miles per hour during the course, while the 100 -mile runners took a faster 4 .5 miles per hour pace.

[1484] Rich Roll was saying that was that when he runs ultramarathons, like when he was training that one of the keys was never get his heart rate over 140 beats per minute yeah see i wish i was smart because if i was smart i wouldn't go out because like when bigfoot i'm like i'm going to break the course record right so i was killing it i was up on i was ahead by hours really yeah hours but you fucked up at that one place we didn't have any water right right so died so if i could go out and be smart that's what i'm going to try to do do you think you can win this moab?

[1485] I don't know.

[1486] No, I doubt it.

[1487] Come on, pussy.

[1488] I know.

[1489] No. I doubt.

[1490] I mean, and it's...

[1491] Why can't you?

[1492] Well, there's freaks out there.

[1493] What, like Cameron Haynes?

[1494] No. You don't think you're a freak?

[1495] No. No, I don't.

[1496] I just think I can push...

[1497] I think I'm good at pain management.

[1498] Oh.

[1499] Or ignoring pain.

[1500] But I had a lot of confidence.

[1501] When I was doing a marathon a day, I was, my confidence was, I've never been able to do that.

[1502] I mean, I could have done it.

[1503] I just never did it, you know, because I just, um, but isn't seasons basically over now for you, except for doing a little blacktail hunting in Oregon?

[1504] Yeah.

[1505] So when will you ramp back up to a marathon a day?

[1506] Well, now it's a time of should I do it or should I just, just think my training's in the bank and manage to the race?

[1507] Because now I could hammer too hard and go into the race.

[1508] race fatigued.

[1509] What is the, what day is the race?

[1510] I think it's the 13th of October.

[1511] So what is that?

[1512] Four weeks?

[1513] Three weeks?

[1514] Three weeks?

[1515] Twenty second.

[1516] So how will you know what's the right way to do and what's the wrong way to do it?

[1517] I don't know.

[1518] How would you know?

[1519] I don't know.

[1520] I wouldn't know.

[1521] Nobody knows.

[1522] But doesn't their ways or people tell whether or not they're overtrained, they monitor heart rate?

[1523] Here's what people say.

[1524] If you run a marathon, you should not run another one for something.

[1525] six months.

[1526] So, should I listen to them?

[1527] So, yeah, there's really, you know, because it's so hard on your body and so on and so forth.

[1528] So how do you, like, when you built up to a marathon a day, how long did it take you to build up to that after the 100 -mile race, which was in June?

[1529] Is that what you said?

[1530] June, yeah.

[1531] So that's not a lot of time.

[1532] July, August, we're in September.

[1533] So you're talking like during July and August, you managed to build yourself up to a marathon a day?

[1534] Yeah, and I did, Under Armour had a marathon.

[1535] an ultra at Mount Bachelor in July.

[1536] And I didn't, like, July 20 something.

[1537] So it was about a month after the 24 -hour race.

[1538] And I didn't take a day.

[1539] I think I took one day off.

[1540] So I ran every day from the 24 -hour trying to beat my body up.

[1541] And then I went into that ultra, and I ran that.

[1542] I don't know.

[1543] I didn't go, took the wrong course for a couple miles.

[1544] So I didn't think I got seven.

[1545] I don't know what I got, but anyway.

[1546] That was 100?

[1547] No, that was a 50K.

[1548] So that was 31 miles.

[1549] And then the next day I ran the South Sister, which is, it was 16 miles with 5 ,000 feet of gain.

[1550] So I got really good mountain back -to -back days there with no break after the 24 -hour.

[1551] And then went, then took a little break, I think a day.

[1552] and then started trying to get really at least a half marathon a day.

[1553] But then I went on a run, I think of nine days where I did a marathon every day.

[1554] And so if that time, if you had asked if I had a chance to win Moab, I would have said, yeah, because my confidence was amazing.

[1555] Because I've never been able to do that.

[1556] And maybe I'm not being realistic about it because there could be, you know, Jim Walmsie show up who knows what he could run it in.

[1557] And so maybe it's not realistic.

[1558] but at that time I had confidence now after not running that much and being gone hunting I don't know So when will you decide Like when you decide Like how you're gonna train Like were you gonna start running tomorrow When you get back home?

[1559] I'll do a marathon tomorrow And then once you do a marathon tomorrow I'll see how I feel But my body feels awesome right now Yeah you're all rested up Oh God I feel as good as I felt in a long time right now Well that was the idea though right that you were going to train super hard, beat yourself up, but then take a few weeks off for hunting and then you would recover and recuperate.

[1560] Yep.

[1561] Looked good on paper.

[1562] Yeah, well, so maybe when you run that marathon tomorrow, you're going to feel like a fucking animal.

[1563] Eat even better than before.

[1564] Maybe I won't.

[1565] Invigorated.

[1566] Well, come on.

[1567] What's with a negative?

[1568] Self -doubt talk.

[1569] No, I'm not, it's not just how it is sometimes.

[1570] Do you think there's any advantage to your diet that you eat all this wild game?

[1571] I mean.

[1572] Yeah.

[1573] there's got to be like some sort of nutritional advantage i don't have to back it up with anything do i can just say yeah you have to say science but but i think it's it's obvious like i was cutting up some meat and my wife was looking at it she goes it almost looks like organ meat yeah because it's it's so rich i mean it's dark yeah it's dark and rich um it's like if uh if you're not used to eating that type of meat it can affect your stomach because it's it's so it's rich protein yeah and so it's definitely um more i don't want it's more nutrient dense and i want to say potent almost than right than like a steak you'd buy to store right mike dolce always likes to use that word nutrient dense i love it sounds good okay super smart um but if you look at the protein per ounce like they do uh there's a chart jamie yeah that they do um they compare beef chicken uh salmon and elk and moose and it's off the charts it's like double so you could get the same amount of protein that you get in a 16 ounce steak i think in like an eight ounce piece of elk so you need less and it's more potent and it just it just looks different you know i've i've shown it to friends that have never eaten elk before and they're like jesus yeah because it's just red yeah it just dense yeah you know you're eating a super athlete you know that's what it's like no and that's what i feel like, I feel like when I'm eating, you know, those elk are amazing animals, powerful, strong, endurance, you know, everything I would like to be as far as of taking on anything that happens.

[1574] And, you know, when you eat it, how could you not have confidence or feel better?

[1575] Well, I just think it's the best food for you.

[1576] I really do.

[1577] I mean, I feel fucking fantastic.

[1578] I feel better now at 50 than I've ever felt, like probably in my life.

[1579] Right.

[1580] I feel better at 50, then I did at 40.

[1581] Really?

[1582] Yeah, for sure, definitely.

[1583] Oh, just a lot of, a lot of it is eating really healthy, you know, really running, managing my, um, my sleep.

[1584] That's a big one.

[1585] That's one that you don't do very good.

[1586] You don't really get a lot of sleep, do you?

[1587] I don't have, that's stupid job.

[1588] I'm supposed to be at work right now.

[1589] When are you going to quit that thing?

[1590] It's Friday, right?

[1591] But you make more money outside your stupid job than you do on your stupid job.

[1592] I know.

[1593] Listen, I need to manage you.

[1594] Yeah.

[1595] to listen to me yeah every time we talk about this i know we do we talk about it a lot well you're the opposite of me in that regard yeah because i'm like captain cut ties and burn the bridge and fucking throw kerosene on the house light on fire and drive away woo yeah and you're not i know i just opposite yeah i'm uh you know and part of it is um i've never like i said i've never felt special So I always feel like I should appreciate having a good job and I'm loyal to where I work.

[1596] And so I feel like all this opportunity and these things that I do and being on, you know, your show and all that could go away tomorrow.

[1597] And then if I quit the job, I'd be like, oh, my God, I knew it.

[1598] I'm a freaking loser and I quit it, the best job I've ever had in my entire life.

[1599] That's an interesting way of looking at it.

[1600] But it's part of your strength is.

[1601] is the fact that you can endure, right?

[1602] And so I think you're enduring this job.

[1603] Yeah, maybe I like being miserable.

[1604] Yeah.

[1605] But I'm not, because I like the people I work with.

[1606] Yeah, I know you do.

[1607] But you would like it more if you didn't have to be there.

[1608] Yeah, I would like just to check in with them every once in a while.

[1609] Hey, how's everybody?

[1610] Yeah, how's that place where I used to work for my whole life.

[1611] Yeah.

[1612] Yeah, I mean, so I miss a people when I'm not there.

[1613] I miss problem solving and helping people, you know, achieve goals.

[1614] So I like being there for that.

[1615] I've been thinking about this a lot, and I've been trying to figure out what a solution is.

[1616] But, you know, maybe we could talk to Hoyt about this or some, you know, some company about this.

[1617] Maybe you'd under Armour.

[1618] But the idea of putting together like almost like camps where people, you know, could learn archery and maybe you could give seminars guys like Dudley can show some archery techniques guys like Remy Warren can talk about things and putting together these almost like introductory camps Yeah Because a lot of people don't know where to start They don't know where to start I didn't know where to start Yeah If it wasn't for Steve Rinella I would have never got to start in hunting If it wasn't for you I would have never got started bohunting It's just sometimes you need someone Yeah And there's not a lot of resources out there But there's a lot of people that are listening And there's a lot of people that they're hearing all this and they're like, wow, this sounds crazy.

[1619] Like, I want to get involved in this.

[1620] And again, a lot of what we're talking about, like I was talking about Brian Barney's podcast.

[1621] Like, he's hunting public land over -the -counter tags in Montana.

[1622] You could go get them.

[1623] They don't cost that much.

[1624] You go, you pay your license fee.

[1625] You buy a tag.

[1626] And you can go out into the wilderness.

[1627] You just need a tent and a backpack and a bow and arrow and some guts.

[1628] And just go out there and you could handle it.

[1629] There's a lot of opportunity like that.

[1630] And this country is amazing for that.

[1631] It's one of the few countries in the world where we have literally millions of acres of public land that are all yours and mine.

[1632] I mean, I was wearing that backcountry hunters and anglers t -shirt yesterday that says public landowner.

[1633] Yeah.

[1634] We're all public landowners.

[1635] And it's a very, very important thing to support.

[1636] And it's an amazing resource.

[1637] So, yeah, like where we're at in Utah is super rare and not a lot of people get to go there.

[1638] But guess what?

[1639] You could go to Idaho.

[1640] You can go into the back country in Idaho and get amazing.

[1641] amazing public land hunting.

[1642] If you're willing to hike in and go deep and you go to Google Earth and you could go and look at all these basins and mountains and you could go online and ask people and there's ways to move around.

[1643] There's ways to do this.

[1644] But getting started is insanely difficult.

[1645] And I've been thinking about this that maybe we could do something.

[1646] Like you know how they have that total archery challenge that they did in Utah?

[1647] Yeah.

[1648] We were there.

[1649] I was there.

[1650] It was awesome.

[1651] Amazing, right?

[1652] So maybe there's like a gathering that we could put together, like maybe once a year, maybe during the off season, just once a year where people can get maybe fitted for a bow, you sign up for this in advance, and maybe it's a couple day thing, like maybe one or two days where you go through an introductory course of archery, understanding it, and then maybe someone can talk about shot placement and maybe someone else like someone who does a lot of soul.

[1653] hunting like remi or maybe even adam can talk about like woodsmanship and things that you can learn and here's some books you could read like your book backcountry what was you back country bow hunting and that's still in print right you can still buy that is it on amazon no it's on cameron haines dot com oh powerful shout out to cameron haines dot com but to have those kind of things like like set out like hey this is something you can do this is something you could read this is something you can listen It would be awesome.

[1654] I mean, we've done gatherings.

[1655] You know, Wayne at the bow rack, we used to do this, bow hunters.

[1656] I can't remember what we used to call it, but six or 700 people would show up at the bow rack in the parking lot, big tent, and we do things.

[1657] We could do it out where I practice out at his property, you know, and get together and have people in, and it would just be, it would be amazing.

[1658] Why don't we do that?

[1659] The reason I know that there's so much interest in Pat, my book, Backcountry Bowhunting, I wrote in 2006.

[1660] Cases of that go out every day.

[1661] I mean, before I left on this hunt, I sat at my kitchen table and signed books for cases of books because those are all going to be gone when I get home.

[1662] Do you have a time machine?

[1663] A time machine.

[1664] Why?

[1665] Where do you get the time?

[1666] I don't understand how the fuck you have time to run a marathon and then sign books and then practice bow hunting and then do 100 reps of fucking this and then hang out with your family, then eat dinner and go to sleep, and then work a full -time job, and then...

[1667] It's tough.

[1668] But that's how I know that there's so much interest in that is that book is, you know, I think sold almost 40 ,000 of them.

[1669] And people have that dream.

[1670] I have two.

[1671] You have two?

[1672] Oh, nice.

[1673] And I just, a good example of people, living that dream this guy at work two guys at my work they wanted to do the backcountry thing so we got maps in Wyoming I said here's because Roy went there one time I've killed a couple of bulls in the back country there public land it's a pretty easy tag to draw you can get you put in for the for the premium tag it costs a little more to put in but the odds of getting it are you can get it on I got it almost every year a couple times and then or a year in between mean.

[1674] And so they put in for the tag.

[1675] They got the tag.

[1676] I sat down with them, said, showed them the drainages, showed them I'd hunt here, I'd camp here, I'd do this.

[1677] And they went in there, killed a bull.

[1678] I mean, public land, never been there before.

[1679] Had a dream of doing it, made it happen.

[1680] So it's, it happens.

[1681] Guys do it every year.

[1682] It can be done.

[1683] Yeah, for sure.

[1684] You can go from the beginning, from no knowledge of archery to eventually doing it.

[1685] Yeah.

[1686] Andy Stomp's done it.

[1687] I know, I know.

[1688] He texted me today.

[1689] Andy's a fucking animal.

[1690] Yeah, I love it.

[1691] Andy's awesome.

[1692] And he got obsessed with bow hunting from listening to us talk about it, from listen to us talk about archery.

[1693] Yeah.

[1694] He got a hoyt.

[1695] He got set up.

[1696] Dudley gave him some coaching.

[1697] I know you hung out with him.

[1698] And he went hunting with Dudley and he got a giant fucking black bear, two of them.

[1699] He got a bear.

[1700] He killed, I think, a couple of deer.

[1701] Yeah.

[1702] Oh, excuse me. And then he went on a bad bear.

[1703] run he had a frustrating elk hunt something like yeah five shots or but he did a podcast i guess about it today he he told me that today's podcast i think is about failure and about bow hunting and about failure and uh cleared hot this is the name of his podcast yeah cleared hot but um man i love that guy i told him on the way home i was going to listen to his podcast today he said he he talked about he mentions me or something like that but andy for people don't know he's been on the podcast before And he is, he's a retired Navy SEAL who has the world record in the distance of one of those fucking crazy flying squirrel suits.

[1704] Wingsuit, yeah.

[1705] He's a maniac.

[1706] He's a real maniac.

[1707] And he's become completely obsessed with Bowhunting.

[1708] In fact, move to Montana.

[1709] Yeah.

[1710] That's how savage that guy is.

[1711] He's like, fuck this.

[1712] I'm out of California.

[1713] Moves his family from San Diego to Montana.

[1714] And he's doing, you know, over the counter.

[1715] Montana is one of the best places in the world where you can get.

[1716] over -the -counter tags for elk hunting and just the wilderness there like I told you when I went there last summer with my family we had to stop the car and I brought binoes and uh I was giving it to my kids I'm like look look look there's a hundred elk out here in this field and we're just sitting there staring for like shit we pulled over for like a half an hour yeah just looking out the window at a hundred elk just hanging out on this field it was amazing yeah uh Montana's awesome no no and Andy he was it wasn't he seal for 17 years yeah i mean so just savage stud just a great guy too you know and just got a great mind for success and this is why he became obsessed with bow hunting as well it's like he he recognized the things that we were talking about and he decided to start it to start the process and see what it was like and then immediately became obsessed yeah and then as we talked about also it i mean it's tough yeah he had a hard time yeah i mean he had some good success when Dudley was coaching him.

[1717] Is that his place there?

[1718] Look at that.

[1719] Many people have asked why we moved to Montana.

[1720] Any other questions?

[1721] The only regret is not making the move sooner.

[1722] Yeah.

[1723] Look at that view.

[1724] I know.

[1725] That's insane.

[1726] He's got his truck parked there and just some amazing, amazing view.

[1727] He said something.

[1728] I think I saw a comment.

[1729] Is that a lake?

[1730] Yeah, it looks like it.

[1731] Is that his yard?

[1732] I don't know.

[1733] Fucking A man. Yeah.

[1734] That's amazing.

[1735] I think he said something about, maybe it was on that cleared hot, that other post there, the second post.

[1736] Yeah, about that maybe on his last shot, he would have been better off throwing his bow.

[1737] One week, two in one week, Troy's, after talking about failure in episode 13, I had one of the best weeks I've ever had.

[1738] I have in a long time, my mind kept drifting back to motivation and purpose, which in my opinion is the opposite side of the coin that failure sits on.

[1739] Hopefully something in it clicks for you.

[1740] So this is, he's talking about his episode of clearly.

[1741] Heard hottest podcast, which is an excellent podcast.

[1742] She should go and check that shit out.

[1743] He's just good at verbalizing.

[1744] And, I mean, it's just so easy to listen to.

[1745] He's a very smart dude.

[1746] So that's him out there with his bow.

[1747] Yeah.

[1748] And he says he's, what did he say about humble pie?

[1749] Yeah.

[1750] That's bow hunting right there.

[1751] Well, it's fucking hard, man. Anytime you think you're good.

[1752] Yeah.

[1753] I mean, something happens and you just feel like, I don't know.

[1754] Well, you know, Dudley's talked about that.

[1755] Dudley, who was a guy who literally gets flown out to Europe to coach international teams.

[1756] He's coached Olympic teams.

[1757] Yeah.

[1758] He was talking about, like, one time he went with an outfitter, and he just hadn't been practicing enough.

[1759] He felt like he was fine.

[1760] And he's just fucking missing.

[1761] Yeah.

[1762] And he's like, he took a whole day.

[1763] And he goes, look, tomorrow we're not going out.

[1764] He goes, I'm just going to sit here, and I'm going to put off a fucking block target, and I'm going to practice.

[1765] I'm going to get my mind right.

[1766] get back on and he got back on track and then the next day he killed really yeah next time he was shooting perfect but it's like he needed to have that wake up call that even though he's john fucking dudley world class professional archer if you don't practice yeah it doesn't matter the the arrow doesn't care yeah the animals don't care if you think you're a bad motherfucker it doesn't like you have to have 100 % dedication 100 % focused yeah all the time and that was one thing that i really loved about this week is that even though like there was times that it was kind of it was exhausting for sure and there was times it can be kind of frustrating when you're on an animal like I didn't feel frustrated like I wanted to quit right I felt frustrated like I wanted to press on and I wanted to get successful and overcome being friends with guys like you guys like remi Adam green tree this knowing these people that have done all this and gone through all this already it's just and and also for people people that are listening.

[1767] Having podcasts where people like you or like Remy or Steve Ronella can talk about the struggle.

[1768] Yeah.

[1769] It's so important.

[1770] Right.

[1771] Because what gets attention is a success.

[1772] Yeah.

[1773] Like when you watch a TV show, what do you see?

[1774] Guys shooting animals.

[1775] Yeah.

[1776] Yeah.

[1777] It does.

[1778] Because you get a TV show is 21 minutes.

[1779] You got some sponsors you got to mention.

[1780] You get a few minutes of hunting and oh, here they killed something.

[1781] That's one of the things that I'm worried.

[1782] about with these films because these films are brilliant like your film that time film that under armor made they're brilliant but man it just seems like everything just kind of happened in that like all of a sudden there's the elk you passed up you're at full drop nah not that one too young and then there's a perfect one boom perfect shot he's down in seconds everybody's happy yeah but that's not that's not the thing the thing is the hours and hours and hours of hiking and and the disappointment the fucking wind got us god damn Damn it.

[1783] Like, we were in on this bowl, and the wind shifted, and the cows go, bop, balk.

[1784] The cows bark.

[1785] For people don't know, cow elk, when they hear things or smell things or see things, and they know something's wrong, they go, boop.

[1786] And it reverberates through the woods, and everybody knows what that sound is.

[1787] It sucks a fat dick.

[1788] Everybody, when a cow, when just one cow sees something or smells something, barks, everybody's like, uh -oh.

[1789] I mean, that was it.

[1790] Yeah.

[1791] It's over.

[1792] There was a time where Jameson and Colton and I, before I killed that bull, we were standing there dead still for five minutes, while cows were just staring at us.

[1793] Just staring.

[1794] And you're not moving.

[1795] Like, your feet are going numb.

[1796] Your knee hurts because you're kind of like leaning on the side of a hill.

[1797] Yeah.

[1798] And you can't move.

[1799] You just got to stay.

[1800] And they're just looking right at you.

[1801] Because for them, look, for me, it's a pursuit.

[1802] It's a discipline.

[1803] It's, I don't want to say fun.

[1804] It's exhilarating and intense.

[1805] It's amazing.

[1806] It's, I'm attracted to it.

[1807] For them, it's life and death.

[1808] Yeah.

[1809] And they don't have a language.

[1810] They don't have a brain that processes all these variables.

[1811] They just know that's fucking danger.

[1812] Yeah.

[1813] There might be danger.

[1814] Is that something that looks to eat me?

[1815] They know they're delicious.

[1816] Yeah.

[1817] They must.

[1818] Yeah.

[1819] They must.

[1820] Yeah.

[1821] One thing, you know, on that hunt, we had basically a lifetime worth of experience for a lot of guys in a week, you know, up there.

[1822] And because the timing was perfect, there's a few reasons why it was a perfect storm up there.

[1823] The weather was a storm, obviously.

[1824] Got a lot of snow.

[1825] It was awesome.

[1826] Yeah, one day we got hammered with snow.

[1827] But the moon phase, the moon was basically non -existent the last few days, and that's a big thing.

[1828] When the moon's full, animals are out at night feeding.

[1829] Most of their feeding is done at night and a little bit during the day to, on this week the moon phase was down so they were feeding mostly out during the day so that was big the weather was good and then the time of year so the bulls were running but I just remember one specific and I can't wait to show this on the film but we were there's a bull bugle when we heard it up there in the quakees and he was going crazy and we wanted to try to get a good look at him so we're standing there and Mark Womack who sub 7 his company he was filming me and he looks over and he says he says cam there's a bull bedded right there and it was about i don't know a little over a hundred yards away there was a six by six bedded and uh with the wind the way it was i'm like well i'm gonna go see how close i can get to him so i snuck up there and got within 10 feet of this six by six ball and i got so close there was a there was a tree blocking his his eye where normally he'd be able to see me but where he bedded, the tree was blocking that.

[1830] So I used that tree and uses the cover of the wind to get in close.

[1831] And that's on, like you said, a wild animal that only cares about staying alive, essentially, and for the bull breeding.

[1832] But that was an experience.

[1833] I got so close that I was like, okay, if he's going to know I'm here eventually, what am I going to, how close am I going to get?

[1834] What's he going to do?

[1835] Because they're aggressive this time of year.

[1836] testosterone is skyrocketing because they're breeding and they're fighting they're doing all this thing what's he going to do when he sees me this close so i didn't really know for sure but i felt that wind shift a little bit at and i felt it on the back of my neck so i came to full draw he's 10 feet away and he stands up and he's like he right then i'm standing playing his day and once he stood up and we got an image i'll post up here in a second of uh me at full draw 10 feet on this big bowl out it's incredible but the footage is amazing That's going to be cool to show.

[1837] No, the footage is going to be amazing.

[1838] And we also got footage of a bull that we couldn't shoot because even though he was a huge bull, he was a younger bull.

[1839] He was probably five or six years old.

[1840] And it was in the snow.

[1841] And it was 40 yards away, broadside, screaming his lungs out.

[1842] And we're just standing there going, wow.

[1843] This is crazy.

[1844] He's just standing there on top of the mountain going, Where's my bitches?

[1845] Yeah.

[1846] And to most people, Like when you're on public land, like when I used to hunt, you know, the Eagle Cap Wilderness, that bull's dead.

[1847] Oh, yeah, for sure.

[1848] I'm going to try to kill that bull.

[1849] There's all sorts of things that can happen, you know, when you're shooting an arrow.

[1850] But the reason why where we're hunting is so good is because it's so well managed.

[1851] Because normally, so it's five or six years old, that's a hell of a trophy for anybody on public land.

[1852] But when everybody could come together and say, okay, guys, here's what we're going to do, we're only going to kill.

[1853] the eight to 10 year old bulls you let those bulls grow and then you get an amazing that's that's one reason why Arizona's so good they they do they manage it for trophy animals and uh some places in new mexico New Mexico is good um there's a place in Oregon it's the Winnihaw it's where I put in for and it's public land but it's a really hard tag to draw I've been putting in for 17 years now but they only give they were giving 10 I think now they give 20 tags a year and there's big bulls there and it's just because it's managed so there's a few different places that are managed for older animals but if you're just going straight up public land it's really hard to pass up a five or six year old bull now how do they make that decision to only give 20 tags because it's probably I would imagine thousands of people that are trying to draw yeah these tags and only 20 people get an opportunity how do they make that distinction just by the biologists pick the number of animals Yeah.

[1854] They just do some sort of a survey, find out how many of their animals are.

[1855] And also, some places manage for better genetics and higher potential of what they would call.

[1856] There's a real problem with that word trophy because people think, oh, you just want to decorate your wall with an animal's body.

[1857] That's not what it means.

[1858] Now, are you a trophy hunter, or do you eat the, I'm like, both.

[1859] Yeah, well, the trophy is an intense experience with a mature animal that has a lot of lifetime.

[1860] of surviving you know like it's a way different animal like if a bull around a young bull they don't know anything they're like babies well they know a spike they barely know what's going on like who are you a spike's been alive for a year and a half right so that's where the herd protects them elk are herd animals they look out for each other so when you have an eight to 10 year old bull that has a protection of the herd but also has has been around for eight to 10 hunting seasons That's a smart animal.

[1861] He's seen some shit.

[1862] He's seen some stuff.

[1863] And it's a smart animal.

[1864] So there's a guy in camp also that has hunted San Carlos Indian Reservation.

[1865] And he talked about this big bull there that knew he was being hunted, circled around them, came in from the backside of the hunters to look at him.

[1866] Wow.

[1867] Because he was that, that bull had been around and knew it was going on so much.

[1868] And so they were able to track him and see what he did.

[1869] and he went around behind the hunters.

[1870] And so these animals, imagine.

[1871] I mean, this is where they live every day for eight to ten years.

[1872] You see some stuff.

[1873] You learn where humans as hunters like to go.

[1874] And also, we are probably a minor threat in comparison of the mountain lions.

[1875] Yeah, yeah.

[1876] You were talking about how many cats are on this ranch.

[1877] Right, there's, there's, but they know humans are danger.

[1878] Sure.

[1879] I mean, they know that.

[1880] And like I said, they know, so there's certain places where hunters, regardless of who's there, go to glass, go to call.

[1881] And those elk know that, okay, I see something there.

[1882] That's where I've seen a human, whatever they think a human is, before I'm not going there.

[1883] Right.

[1884] You know, so it's, once you get an age on an animal, it gets tough.

[1885] It gets tough to get him killed.

[1886] And I would imagine the mountain lion population as high as it is, like they have to be on point 24 -7 with something that's faster than them, kills them with its teeth, something that can leap up and literally grab a hold of its neck.

[1887] Remember we were talking to Johnny in Colorado?

[1888] And he was telling us about the footprints that he found.

[1889] They found a bunch of cat footprints, and then they found a bunch of elk footprints.

[1890] And then they only found the elk footprints.

[1891] And then a couple hundred yards later, they found a dead bull with a giant.

[1892] mountain lion clinging to its neck like that's that's a hard life when a fucking hundred and fifty pound cat can bring down a thousand pound bull yeah so the so the lion was on the bull's back so that's why it's it's uh it's um prints were gone in the snow because he was up on the bull trying to get it killed the bull was taken off for a couple hundred yards finally the new cat clamped down on probably its windpipe got it killed and that's happening outside of season that's That's happening every day.

[1893] Every day.

[1894] That's not hunting season.

[1895] That's just real life out there.

[1896] And bears?

[1897] Yeah.

[1898] Yeah, so it's, but we kind of, you started to talk about the trophy hunting aspect.

[1899] What people, you know, when they have that trophy hunting moniker that has negative connotation.

[1900] And that's what, we talked about this a little bit last night on the way back from the airport, the grizzly hunting in British Columbia.

[1901] You know?

[1902] Yeah.

[1903] that they're stopping that in November there'll be no more grizzly hunting they were killing 250 bears a year out of 15 ,000 so they're basically just managing the population you know you have to take a certain amount of animals out given the habitat and the carrying capacity to land especially predators because they don't have predators right right because what else is going to kill a grizzly right nothing nothing and some people say well they you know they'll their numbers will drop down on their own if they're if they eat all the the deer and all the moose, you're right.

[1904] Their numbers will drop down, but it will take decades.

[1905] Yeah.

[1906] And if you're, in that time, you're going to destroy two different things, right?

[1907] You're going to destroy the ungulates.

[1908] They're going to get devastated.

[1909] Yeah.

[1910] And you're going to also destroy the economy that comes with hunting.

[1911] Like the economy that comes with hunting those undulates because they're going to get devastated by the overwhelming population of grizzly bears and the economy that comes with hunting the grizzly bears.

[1912] Right.

[1913] In managing them, what they're gonna have to probably do is what they've done with mountain lions in california what people don't know because mountain lion hunting is outlawed in california so what they do is they hire hunters to kill mountain lines and they've killed i believe they killed almost a hundred last year i think it was like 97 most of them they find pets in their body they find like their primary food source more than 50 percent is dogs right and they just killing people's dogs so the lions are still getting killed yeah but it's just not hunters doing it it's government basically shoot They can run dogs with them.

[1914] They can do all sorts of things to get them killed.

[1915] But it's a government paying somebody to do it, as opposed to hunters paying for the opportunity to do it to kill the same amount.

[1916] So instead of money going to the state, the state's paying money.

[1917] And it's a lot of money, especially when you're talking about something like grizzly bears.

[1918] Well, a grizzly bear, what they're saying up there, and I did some research on it just because I want to know how this works because why it got, why it's being stopped is just public outcry.

[1919] And the new government in British Columbia has said, in this day and age, you know, the public just can't stomach grisly trophy hunting.

[1920] So the public.

[1921] What the hell does a public know?

[1922] The public doesn't even, they're not even out there.

[1923] Well, they have a misconception.

[1924] And their idea is all based on them being in these cities.

[1925] And the major population center of British Columbia is Vancouver, right?

[1926] It's a big urban environment.

[1927] Liberal.

[1928] Yeah.

[1929] There's a lot of different people there, camera.

[1930] You don't have to be generalizing the fine people of Vancouver.

[1931] If they could have voted for Obama, they would have.

[1932] So these people that live in Vancouver, they comprise the majority of the people that are voting in British Columbia.

[1933] So they voted out these grizzly bear hunting.

[1934] But these people that I know, like my friend Mike Hawbridge, who lives in B .C., Mike's had a lot of experience with grizzly bears and wolves.

[1935] Wolves up there are so plentiful, they don't have a bag limit on them.

[1936] You can shoot as many wolves as you want.

[1937] They encourage you to shoot wolves.

[1938] There's even a bounty in some places on wolves.

[1939] Well, and do you know, so I think this was a little different up there with the bears.

[1940] I don't think they voted it out per se.

[1941] I think the new government came in.

[1942] They took a poll and said, who, you know, supports grizzly hunting and whatever.

[1943] 71 or 74 % said they were opposed.

[1944] So the new government just said, okay, we're going to make the decision to start.

[1945] stop it.

[1946] Well, they didn't stop it.

[1947] This is what they did.

[1948] You can hunt the grizzlies for meat, but you can't keep the rug or the skull or the skull.

[1949] The height or the skull.

[1950] So which people consider trophies.

[1951] But what the problem with that is, that is also a resource.

[1952] You're eliminating a resource.

[1953] If you shoot a bear and you eat the bear, why wouldn't you keep the rug, like have a bear rug in your house to commemorate that experience?

[1954] And also, it's, you know, people have bear -skinned rugs it's it's always been i have about 50 of them but it's it's something that people you know like if you're eating the animal that is also a part of the animal why would you be compelled to throw that away yeah that seems incredibly wasteful no it's disrespectful right it's also disrespectful to just shoot an animal just for its skin if you're a type of person who was to shoot an elephant just take the tusks and let the meat rot a lot of people think that's disrespectful that's where trophy hunting gets its bad moniker.

[1955] Yeah.

[1956] So what they've done is the opposite of what makes sense.

[1957] You've removed part of the value of that animal, and you've also removed most of the economy of people hunting that animal.

[1958] So most people are not going to hunt them.

[1959] What they said was, so they were killing 250 a year, and they could get out of country or whatever hunters to pay $25 ,000 to hunt those bear.

[1960] So it's 25 ,000 times 250.

[1961] It's like A lot.

[1962] I don't know.

[1963] It's like over $1 ,000.

[1964] Means you're both stupid.

[1965] But anyway, so that money, just like the lion's dollars.

[1966] Just like the lion hunting.

[1967] God, I should be able to figure that out.

[1968] I don't want to.

[1969] What is it, Jamie?

[1970] A hundred, how many tags they give?

[1971] 250.

[1972] 250 times 25 ,000.

[1973] What is that?

[1974] Smart people.

[1975] I'm going to say, take a guess.

[1976] I don't know.

[1977] 50 million.

[1978] You'd have to have a pen and paper.

[1979] Say 50 million.

[1980] Six million two hundred and fifty dollars.

[1981] Six million two hundred and fifty whatever dollars.

[1982] Oh, I was wrong.

[1983] So think of that.

[1984] Now think that's the money that's gone.

[1985] That money is now no longer going into the economy.

[1986] Now, they're going to have what they call problem bears.

[1987] Now, problem bears are bears that attack people, which is very frequent.

[1988] Bears that attack animals, livestock, bears that encroach upon people's established residences.

[1989] communities and start eating garbage cans and killing pets and things along those lines, then they have to hire people to go out and kill these bears.

[1990] And that's going to cost thousands of dollars a day.

[1991] You're going to have to pay for equipment.

[1992] Dogs, they usually have to track them with dogs.

[1993] And these dogs have to be trained.

[1994] You have to get specialists who know what they're doing.

[1995] They have to be more than one because they need backup because you're dealing with a thousand pound animal.

[1996] I don't know if you want dogs on a grizzly.

[1997] I think that's how they find them.

[1998] I don't know.

[1999] I think that's Black Bear.

[2000] No, one of the guys that was on Grizzly The Gritty Bowman podcast Was talking about it Yeah, dogs with the grizzly Yeah, that they use dogs to find them Seems like those dogs wouldn't last long Well, I don't think they engage the grizzly Okay I think they find them You know, and bark at them and bay them up Yeah And then, you know, they locate them And then that's when the hunter comes in Okay But that's the other thing that, you know, people don't like that idea Of using dogs to hunt animals But that's one of the more effective ways to find these animals.

[2001] It's one of the best ways they use in a lot of states to find mountain lions.

[2002] Yeah.

[2003] And people think it's fucked up and cruel.

[2004] It's the only effective way to hunt mountain lions, to be honest.

[2005] I mean, you can gamble.

[2006] You might see one, have a tag.

[2007] I mean, I buy a tag in Oregon every year.

[2008] I've seen about, I think I've seen three mountain lions in 30 years.

[2009] I have a tag.

[2010] I mean, I've had a shot one time, didn't get it killed.

[2011] But if you have dogs, then you can say, okay, we have 10 ,000 mountain lions.

[2012] We need to take out, you know, 500 a year.

[2013] So like a lot of states have once, because once you kill a lion, then you have to go to game and fish and get it checked in.

[2014] They do measurements and do all these different things.

[2015] And so once 500 lions have come in, the season stops.

[2016] Right.

[2017] So they have a mortality.

[2018] threshold.

[2019] Yeah, they have to reach...

[2020] Once they reach that limit, they said, well, we have 10 ,000, we need to kill 500 a year, so once we kill 500, seasons over.

[2021] And for people, why would you want to kill the mountain line?

[2022] I don't understand.

[2023] Well, first of all, you got to control, again, the population of predators because nothing else does.

[2024] And two, you can eat mountain lions, and they're apparently delicious.

[2025] Yeah.

[2026] Have you had it?

[2027] No, I never have.

[2028] No. I know people that have.

[2029] Ronella says it's absolutely delicious.

[2030] He shot a mountain lion last year for the first time.

[2031] He's had it before, but he's never had it.

[2032] had it his own and he said it was sensational oh i definitely eat it i want i'd like to hunt lion i never have before and you know using the dogs the dogs are a tool they're a tool like a bow like a rifle it's just those dogs have been trained so well and love what they do the owners love the dogs and that's just i mean there's i don't know it's such a special bond between them and then just being part of that is just another amazing hunting experience.

[2033] It's just a different tool to use.

[2034] Yeah, well, I think people think of dogs as being only pets, and that's what they should be used as, and dogs shouldn't work.

[2035] But, you know, that is, and I understand that because I have pets.

[2036] And, you know, I wouldn't want Marshall to go out and get attack, you know, Marshall would shit his pants if even saw a bear.

[2037] But there's different kinds of dogs that were bred for, very specific purposes.

[2038] That's what those dogs want to do.

[2039] They do.

[2040] That's one of the things that Aaron Schneider talked about in the podcast where he was standing in the wrong place when they opened up the pen to let the grizzly dogs out.

[2041] Oh.

[2042] And the dog just leaped and slammed him in the chest and it just about knocked him unconscious.

[2043] Which podcast was this?

[2044] It's one of the Gritty Bowman podcast.

[2045] Oh, okay.

[2046] One of the more recent ones.

[2047] Let me see if I could pull out the number because I was listening to it recently.

[2048] Gritty Bowman is a very good podcast by these guys that of ours.

[2049] Brian Call and Aaron Snyder.

[2050] And the number episode 281, 282, and there was another one in there.

[2051] But 282 is, I think, the big one.

[2052] It's about predator management with Bart Lancaster.

[2053] And that's the one where they really talked about, they talked about guys who live there in British Columbia who are talking about how, you know, when he's not home and he has to go somewhere.

[2054] to leave his dog with his wife if his wife goes riding a horse he has to bring the wife has to bring dogs with her because there's so many fucking grizzly bears out there they have to have something that's going to protect him warn him and these these dogs are not just pets they're also a first line of defense to let them know that there's danger in the area let them know that bears are near and also keep the bears away because the bears hear dogs they don't want to fuck around no and the dogs they start barking that means people are going to know that means outcome the guns right right Yeah, good deterrent for sure.

[2055] People in Vancouver don't understand this.

[2056] They're not there.

[2057] They just sit in there eating tofu and talking about spirituality and, you know, and then they pass these bands and they upset the entire balance of nature.

[2058] They upset the economy, the economy of hunting, of conservation, all these things get all lopsided.

[2059] And it's, I understand where they're coming from.

[2060] I understand the sentiment.

[2061] But it's a lot of it is entirely based on the images that people have seen in movies, in Disney films, and the anthropomorphization of these animals where you attach human characteristics to these ultra predators, these enormous monsters of nature, which are amazing.

[2062] We don't, like, I can speak for myself, but I know I'm speaking for you, too.

[2063] We don't want bears to not be there.

[2064] We don't want wolves to not be there.

[2065] They're amazing.

[2066] Yeah.

[2067] I'm glad that they exist.

[2068] They're fucking awesome.

[2069] I mean, to be out.

[2070] Outside, I've never heard a wolf howl.

[2071] Well, I did once.

[2072] I did it with Hawkridge in B .C., but they were like way in the distance.

[2073] I heard wolves howl.

[2074] But to see them and be there when it's happening, and I saw a grizzly bear once in Alberta and just to look at it.

[2075] It's like, holy shit.

[2076] You see those things?

[2077] It's amazing.

[2078] I mean, it's magical.

[2079] But that doesn't mean that they don't need to be managed.

[2080] You know, and that's a weird word, right?

[2081] that's and that's what people say is like well why are we interfering why can't they they'd figure it out themselves they have forever and what people don't or fail to realize i guess is no man's always been involved yeah we've always hunted yeah we've you know we've been involved in how many animals there are sometimes we've been involved negatively like when we almost wiped out the elk or the buffalo but lately we've been involved positively and we manage And this is the other thing they talked about on the Gritty Bowman podcast where they really emphasize the difference between a biologist who's not in the field and all these different people, whether it's the hunters themselves or whether it's the guides or whether it's the people that are outfitters that are there 24 -7 -365.

[2082] They can give you more data.

[2083] They understand the real numbers.

[2084] It's very difficult when you're dealing with, especially something like British Columbia.

[2085] Intensely wooded area.

[2086] To get a real number, yeah.

[2087] I mean, there's no, there's no, like, you can't just pull up the Social Security numbers of the bears and find out how many of them are still alive.

[2088] And you can't, you can't fly over and get a count like to do a lot of animals.

[2089] Right, like caribou or something.

[2090] Well, caribou and even elk where they winter, so elk, you know, once winter hits, they get pushed down to where they can get feed in the winter.

[2091] That's where they get the counts, you know, so that's where they can get a pretty good number or idea.

[2092] of how many elk are in that area.

[2093] Bear don't do, you're never going to fly over.

[2094] There's no wintering grounds for bear.

[2095] Well, that's another important thing that Adam found out.

[2096] When Adam Green Tree was on this crazy walkabout that he was doing for the last month, he found Mountain Grizzlies.

[2097] What he believes, and he says, and I know that he's a very smart guy, he's been around a lot of animals, he believes there's 100 % mountain grizzlies in Colorado.

[2098] That's what he said, yeah.

[2099] He took pictures of them, and he even put up photos.

[2100] They're really hard to see pictures way off in the distance.

[2101] but even put a photo up of, you know, online.

[2102] He did online searches for that mountain range in Colorado.

[2103] And they said that it's like people who see Bigfoot.

[2104] They say they see Grizzlies, but he's like, he spotted four of them.

[2105] Yeah, yeah.

[2106] So, I mean, that's a good example.

[2107] I mean, if those were grizzly, then there's grizzly we didn't know about.

[2108] How many people are going to do what Adam did and actually go out there 20 plus miles deep into the woods with a fucking tent and find these things?

[2109] Yeah.

[2110] It's incredibly difficult to get real world numbers.

[2111] on these animals yeah and that's so once you once you take um once you take the science out of it and the the people with boots on the ground actually weighing in on hey k here's how many animals are here's how many we need to kill once you do like they did in bc and the government just decides that the public can't stomach it anymore because they did some poll at star they have by the way, but I still kill stuff.

[2112] That's where we cause problems.

[2113] We create issues.

[2114] We use the wrong tools to, we're still managing the animals, but not correctly.

[2115] Well, it's also, the decisions are based on emotions without real information based on the actual environment that these animals live in.

[2116] Like you could never imagine, if you lived in Vancouver and which some of the, best restaurants in the world and drove some of the nicest streets and i mean Vancouver is an amazing city if you live there and you had this idea of what wildlife is but you never left vancouver if you did you oh we visited chicago yeah beautiful you know like you don't know like you literally have to be there to just kind of get a sense of it and you wouldn't get a sense of it in one trip you'd have to be there all the time you'd have to you'd have to take multiple excursions into the forest to really understand what you're talking about what you're dealing with So to make those decisions based on people who are completely ignorant about that situation, that's like, it's crazy.

[2117] I mean, it's a, it's a ridiculous way to handle it.

[2118] So thankfully here in the United States, we do have a great system for, you know, wildlife management.

[2119] And our government, except for here in California with the mountain lions, trust the professionals, the biologists, the people out, you know, boots on the ground, as I said.

[2120] and we we trust those people to allocate tags to to give us numbers to to help manage the hunt seasons and and how many tags are for each area so thankfully that's continue to happen here but even here it's it gets protested like the delisting of wolves an area where they're starting to desolate or devastating of grizzlies yeah and that's going to get pushed back too people are going to sue against it but the the idea is not to kill all these animals, the idea is not to satisfy the bloodthirsty urge is some fat redneck that people have in their mind as being the stereotypical hunter that they see as a bad guy in a movie, right?

[2121] Like in a movie it's always like, remember the scene of Wolverine where this is the bad guys who killed the bear and he goes and fucks those bad guys up, but you shoot that bear with poison?

[2122] Weren't they drunk or something like that?

[2123] Yeah, of course they're drinking.

[2124] It's like it's so stereotypical.

[2125] It's like the idea that every beautiful woman has to be stupid.

[2126] It's just as offensive.

[2127] And this is the stereotype that we've been fed because it's a classic cliche sort of a scenario, right?

[2128] It's easy.

[2129] You see it in the movie, right?

[2130] Jocks are big, dumb, stupid guys.

[2131] Hot girls are bimboes.

[2132] You know, the nerdy guy with glasses is always smart.

[2133] Sometimes those nerdy guys with glasses are fucking idiots.

[2134] Yeah.

[2135] You know, it doesn't...

[2136] Sometimes a hot girl's smart.

[2137] Sometimes the hot girls, we're smarter than us.

[2138] It's all possible.

[2139] So sometimes hunters aren't.

[2140] Most times.

[2141] That's the thing that frustrates the shit out of me. My experience has been like what we experienced this past weekend.

[2142] People like Lee and Tiffany, people like you and Ben, really good people.

[2143] Really good, nice people.

[2144] Yeah.

[2145] I mean, we know so many people that are involved in the outdoor world or the hunting world.

[2146] The industry, yeah.

[2147] Yeah, whether it's John Dudley or Remy or Steve Rindley.

[2148] These are great people.

[2149] They're exceptional human beings.

[2150] People with exceptional character and exceptional discipline.

[2151] Right.

[2152] It's not the fat redneck that wants a poisoned grizzly bear that Wolverine has to beat up in a stupid movie.

[2153] Right.

[2154] But that's all you see.

[2155] No, and I even, I did a call out on, it was like some triple X movie or Xander's cage, somebody.

[2156] I don't know what it was, but they had the girl on there said, there's the they show these bow hunters getting ready to shoot did we talk about this one the last time getting ready to or maybe i just put on my on my facebook getting ready to shoot a lion with a bow she's with a rifle with the rifle scope on his head she shoots the hunter and she says so venn diesel calls her on the phone about some mission they're going to do for this stupid movie and he says what are you up to and she's like evening the odds so she was shooting shooting a hunter and that's on a on a regular movie so corny you talk to people in africa they want lions dead because lions kill their friends yeah like i know a woman who lived in south africa who lost a friend to a lion yeah and when you talk to her about lions she she has that south african accent she's born and raised right and you know when she talks about lion she goes they just never been around lions here no she goes you don't know what it's like There was an article that was written by a guy from Zimbabwe right after the whole cease of the lion thing that was in the New York Times that it said in Zimbabwe, we do not cry for lions.

[2157] Right, right.

[2158] Yeah, and this was about people that have had to deal with these things.

[2159] It's not saying that we want all lions dead.

[2160] No. We don't.

[2161] No, but you've got to hunt them so they're out of the where people live.

[2162] Well, people don't understand.

[2163] It's the same thing as with the grizzly bears.

[2164] When they made lying hunting such a dangerous proposition for people that do it.

[2165] it because you're going to get ostracized, people are going to show up at your house and protest like they did that dentist guy.

[2166] Yeah.

[2167] They've had to call lions now.

[2168] Right.

[2169] Now they have to hire hitmen to go in there and shoot all these lions and they make no money.

[2170] So instead of making $50 ,000 per lion, which helps the community, helps fund their schools and gives them money.

[2171] And there's been a lot of articles written about the lie of conservation when it comes to lying hunting and how little of it actually goes to the people of the community and how much of it actually goes to the outfitters but you know how much of it goes to the community if you don't have hunters yeah zero right zero you know how much of it goes into the community if these people protest the people that don't want lying how much do they put in zero right they don't help those people at all most of them just are you know hashtag activists or you know internet people that are just posting pictures up on instagram and facebook and getting people riled up and starting petitions but how much of you actually doing there?

[2172] Are they doing anything?

[2173] No. You've got to manage lions.

[2174] Yeah.

[2175] Nobody likes to hear that.

[2176] But if you want people to live in the same vicinity as lions, you have to make sure the lion population doesn't get too crazy.

[2177] Right.

[2178] And also they devastate the unulet population.

[2179] They devastate them.

[2180] That's one of the reasons why they had a column in Zimbabwe.

[2181] You know, there's not, not like they have a bunch of stores with stock full of meat.

[2182] So they have cows.

[2183] You know, that's kind of what they have.

[2184] They have cows and their domestic animals that they use for food.

[2185] Those lions come in and kill a bunch of those.

[2186] So, I mean, to them, a $600 a cow, that's huge.

[2187] You know, a $600 a cow is, could be, I'm not going to say life or death, but if that gets killed by a lion, drastically impacts their life.

[2188] I think a lot of people have ideas about wildlife.

[2189] They're entirely shaped by movies and by television shows.

[2190] and we have this, this unrealistic depiction.

[2191] And this is not in support or against hunting.

[2192] This is just, I think, the reality of humans and our view of the wild world.

[2193] You saw that woman last year in, she was an editor for Game of Thrones, and she was in the wild in Africa.

[2194] Oh, yeah, got drug out?

[2195] She decided to roll down her window to get a bit of photo.

[2196] And the cat said, thank you.

[2197] just reached in, grabbed her, pulled her out of the car, and killed her in front of everybody.

[2198] Drug her out.

[2199] That's what a lion does.

[2200] Yeah.

[2201] No, it's...

[2202] The lion's not doing that because she was antagonizing it or because it was hungry.

[2203] It's a killing machine.

[2204] It's nature's killing machine.

[2205] It's the reason why we're not...

[2206] You don't have to hack your way through a river of gazelles to get to your fucking car.

[2207] It's because those cats exist.

[2208] Well, it's...

[2209] I don't know.

[2210] I'm glad for this forum to talk about things like...

[2211] this because I know we've made an impact and because of you and you reach so many people and you're wearing an Under Armour Hunt shirt right now with a big bull on it and a Hoyt bow hunting hat and it's just like I feel like there's been education happening for a few years now and we're slowly turning the tide and people do care more about where their food comes from kind of the process of how did my how this food get to my not everybody's thinking that but a lot of people are and it just feels like also like bow hunting is just a cool thing to be involved shooting a bow is cool shooting a bow is awesome it's fun it's exciting and I always tell people even if you want to eat plants for the rest of your life you never want to kill an animal ever just try archery just for meditation it's an amazing relaxing thing because to release a perfect arrow and have it hit that bull's eye is so difficult and involve so many different things that you have to manage and control that in doing that it sort of cleanses your mind yeah i love it oh nothing better i mean we were i post a video yesterday and we were you know we had success on our hunt we tagged out we tagged out we both got elk so our hunt was done and we were still you me and jed were having a great time just shooting arrows and having fun yeah shooting your targets and just laughing and making little bets with each other and stuff and yeah having a great time do you know no i know we're even we're Ed owed me $100 bucks but I let it slide because Under Armour paid for the hunt but it's just I think what's important about podcasts and it's not just for hunting I think it's important for almost every really difficult complex nuanced subject is you have to discuss all the aspects of it and you can't do that on a regular television show you can't and you also have to remove a lot of the unrealistic programming that we have in our head because of anthropomorphization of animals attaching human characteristics that we've seen in Disney movies and all of our lives animals have been our friends we've had teddy bears that are our friends polar bears are selling us Klondock bars and Coca -Cola we have all this in our head that these are these cute awesome things which they are awesome they are beautiful but we don't know what they really are we have an unrealistic idea what they really are.

[2212] We might see them in the zoo.

[2213] Oh, there's the bear in the zoo.

[2214] Hi, bear.

[2215] Yeah.

[2216] This is not what they really are.

[2217] No. And unless you have real world experience in where they really are, like I was saying to Tom, the guy who owns the ranch.

[2218] Tom land.

[2219] I was saying, you get this an amazing place.

[2220] And I think you should take people on guided tours that have no intention whatsoever of hunting.

[2221] Just show them the rut.

[2222] Wild elk.

[2223] It's so much greater than any experience you'll ever have at the zoo.

[2224] With me and Colton and Jameson, we're out there covered in the bushes hiding and hearing br -h -h -h -h -h -h -h -h -h -h -h -h -h -h -h.

[2225] Hearing these elk scream all around us.

[2226] Yeah.

[2227] We were saying, this is amazing.

[2228] Like, how many people get to experience this?

[2229] These elk had no idea we were there, and we got to creep in on them and watch them just be wild elk.

[2230] And it was amazing.

[2231] I mean, it was thrilling.

[2232] It was incredible.

[2233] With, I mean, I'm looking at all these cows, and I'm thrilled.

[2234] I have no desire to kill them.

[2235] Right.

[2236] It was looking at elk that I knew I wasn't going to kill, and I was still enjoying every second of it.

[2237] Right.

[2238] Like, if people could go and experience that and just be, I think you would get like one step closer to an understanding of that this is this whole world is this wild collection of things that are interacting with each other.

[2239] Right.

[2240] And if you know just one piece of it, you can't really judge all of it, you know?

[2241] And so what should they do?

[2242] Maybe they should trust people who've been there, who've done it, who understand, who aren't bloodthirsty killers, but actually have been out there and know how it all goes together.

[2243] It's okay to trust people like that and not think that hunting's bad, hunters are bad.

[2244] So be like, maybe I just didn't get it.

[2245] But I don't think the hunters had a voice before.

[2246] Right.

[2247] I think before podcast came along, we relied on people like Ronella or yourself to write books, and then you have to read those books.

[2248] Nobody wants to read a fucking book.

[2249] Now, and you're, you're reaching, so it's, uh, what's that saying?

[2250] Um, you're preaching to the choir.

[2251] So whoever's buying the book.

[2252] Exactly.

[2253] It's already on your team.

[2254] Exactly.

[2255] So this has allowed us to reach to people, reach people who maybe aren't on the team.

[2256] Yeah.

[2257] And that's what's, you know, we've been able to vet, vet it and discuss and detail and go through it.

[2258] So I don't know.

[2259] I mean, I just wish people could have more of an open mind about it.

[2260] And, and.

[2261] It takes time.

[2262] It does.

[2263] It takes time, but I've got a lot of messages from people, and I've talked to a lot of people in real life that have said to me that they've changed their thoughts on what hunting is.

[2264] By listening to me talk to Ronella, listen to me talk to you, listen to me talk to Remy and John Dudley and all these different people where you get a sense of like, oh, well, these are like really good people.

[2265] These are really, and these are people that are experiencing this wild thing, and it gives them like this itch.

[2266] Because I can remember before I ever hunted, for years, I had this weird.

[2267] itch about it where I had I'd been fishing most of my life you know I always would go fishing but I'd never been hunting until 2012 but before that I always had these thoughts about it like I'd always sit around and I'd go man what it was like that's got to be the best way to get meat right it's got to be the healthiest for you and I would buy like I would always order like if they had venison in a restaurant I'd always order it or you know elk or you know bison or something like that I'm like wow it tastes different it tastes and that's farm raised bullshit shit, you know?

[2268] When you're buying venison and a store, you're not getting a wild deer.

[2269] You're getting some weird...

[2270] They can't sell wild.

[2271] No. You're mostly getting it from New Zealand in fact, which is really weird.

[2272] You're getting a lot of New Zealand elk.

[2273] So when I would think about it for the longest time, I was getting little fragments of information from these television shows, and a lot of them were terrible.

[2274] I'd watch a lot of the hunting shows, and they would be like real rednecky, lowbrow, really fucking yokel.

[2275] dumb dumbs and I'd be like well that's I don't want to be involved in that yeah and then I found Rinella show and that was the first thing that opened my eyes I went okay all right here's a guy who's really smart and well read and cooks all these things and he cooks all these animals in this really delicious preparation I'm like okay now I'm intrigued and luckily I got to meet him and luckily it started me on this this journey but for most people they're stuck with that wolverine movie they're stuck with that image and and being involved in this for so long i can say and i you know i do a lot of different things um the ultra running community is not a hunters i mean those are pretty green people and uh but i can say that for me the best people i know my closest friends the people i can count on for anything like i said are hunters and it's like hunters i think just have a different perspective on life, death, struggle, and where that's driven home for me is the death threats I get, there's comments right now on a couple of my photos from people that said, somebody said, they hope I get home and my family gets in a car crash and I get there just in enough time to where the flames are burning them and they're clawing at the windows.

[2276] they that's the kind of stuff people post on my photos today because I hunt hunters meanwhile is that person eating a cheeseburger right now I don't know they are they buying their cat canned chicken no but they're just they're weak people that don't understand that how life works hunters understand the preciousness of life we take life to sustain ourselves we accept that fact so we appreciate We appreciate life.

[2277] We appreciate friendship.

[2278] We appreciate somebody who's there for you because you've been down.

[2279] You've been up.

[2280] You've, you know, killed animals.

[2281] You know what goes into to eating and surviving.

[2282] Somebody like that puts on their blinders, judges people, wants my family to die.

[2283] They don't even really.

[2284] What they're doing is just trying to hurt your feelings and make you feel like shit.

[2285] But that's what I'm saying.

[2286] Hunters won't do that.

[2287] Hunters are.

[2288] I don't know.

[2289] They're the best people.

[2290] But I don't even think we can generalize because there's some hunters that are pieces of shit, you know?

[2291] The best people I know are hunters.

[2292] But you know some of the best hunters.

[2293] I'm just, and I think that's, when you get to the elite of anything, you get to people that have exceptional character that have allowed them to get really, truly great at any pursuit.

[2294] And you're talking about guys like Lee Lakowski or Remy Warren.

[2295] You're talking about the elite of the elite, right?

[2296] If they were doing anything, they would be amazing at it.

[2297] And I think that, when you're talking about the character of that, Those people, those are people that have overcome incredible odds to become very good at something that's insanely difficult, which is bow hunting.

[2298] And I think a lot of these people, the problem is, first of all, there's an anonymous communication on the internet.

[2299] That's a problem.

[2300] The problem is talking to people in person.

[2301] You get social cues.

[2302] If I say something mean to you and I see, I hurt in your feelings, you feel it.

[2303] You're trying to, like, reach out and hurt someone.

[2304] You're not even in the room.

[2305] You're throwing a bomb.

[2306] You're like closing your eyes and throwing a bomb over a bridge.

[2307] You know, you're not seeing them.

[2308] It's not, it's a bad form of communication for the human animal because unless you commit to only being nice and kind or friendly or funny online, unless you commit to doing that and never trying to like reach out and attack someone and hurt someone, you're using this whole thing wrong because you're taking advantage of this weird little loophole that exists in communication where you can communicate with someone with no repercussions.

[2309] Because if someone said that in front of your face.

[2310] Oh, they never would though.

[2311] Yeah.

[2312] But if they did, you know, it would get fucking hot, right?

[2313] Right.

[2314] If someone said that to me in front of my face, it would be very hard for me to stop from assaulting them.

[2315] It just seems weird that hunters don't go to a vegan, I don't even know if they have pages.

[2316] I assume they have pages and just talk shit to vegans.

[2317] Yeah, but we won't do that.

[2318] Well, it's, you know, it's not something, they're not doing anything that we oppose, right?

[2319] I don't oppose people eating vegetables.

[2320] eat vegetables.

[2321] They think in their mind that we are doing something that is immoral or that is unevolved.

[2322] And I think that's just ignorance.

[2323] They don't understand that we are here for a very temporary, short amount of time.

[2324] And the more we embrace the richness and complexity that is life and the life eats life struggle, and the less we finger point and more we try to look at our own footprint, our carbon footprint and just the sustainability footprint that we live, that we leave on this world.

[2325] And in my eyes, there's no more sustainable way of living than supporting conservation through buying tags and supporting it through buying outdoor equipment, which what is the number of percentage of taxes that go from when you buy hunting equipment that goes straight to conservation?

[2326] It's like 11%, I think.

[2327] Something like that, yeah.

[2328] Which is millions and billions of dollars.

[2329] Like Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, has a great bunch of charts that show how much money each year hunters put into contributing to wildlife conservation.

[2330] It's stunning.

[2331] It's billions of dollars.

[2332] And it is number one in conservation by a fucking long shot.

[2333] I mean, the second place is like a tiny fraction of what hunting contributes to conservation.

[2334] Yeah, yeah.

[2335] Most people don't know that.

[2336] It takes these kind of conversations for people to find out.

[2337] Hunters know that.

[2338] Hunters do know that.

[2339] Here it is.

[2340] Gun and ammo taxes result in 1 .1 billion for wildlife and conservation each year.

[2341] 1 .1 billion.

[2342] That's just gun and ammo taxes.

[2343] Forget about bows and arrows and hunting equipment and clothing and all the different factors that play in different pieces that contribute to conservation.

[2344] It's an amazing amount.

[2345] And you're not getting that from people who are philanthropists.

[2346] You're not getting that from people that just want to be nice and contribute to animals.

[2347] You get a tiny fraction of that.

[2348] Yeah, that's true.

[2349] And, you know, that whole thing, you know, Rocky Mountain Out Foundation, they came up with the hunting is conservation.

[2350] And it's like a little part of that, though, when I hunt, I don't think I'm going to go out here and conserve.

[2351] You know, I think I want to kill a mature animal.

[2352] I want to take meat home to my family.

[2353] product of what we do is conservation and that's where that money comes in and that's where the hunters you know buying the hunting licenses and honey tags because people have told me well are you you're taking credit for being a conservationist but would you do that if you didn't have to and I'm like it doesn't matter my money my money's there whether I want I would do it or not well also here's an important thing hunters chose to to vote to put that a amount of money towards conservation this is something that nobody fought right no we've never fought oh that's too expensive or that no we 11 % I want all that money in my own pocket we gladly do it and it's but it's like you know I don't I'm a hunter first I'm a conservationist because I'm a hunter but you're also a hunter because people before you were conservationists and they made sure that the hunting was protected right and that you didn't have to be a conservationist first and then hope that your kids or their kids could be hunters because the world would be in more balance.

[2354] Right.

[2355] We tied them to they tied them together and it's it's this model's worked so well.

[2356] It's worked so well but it's been represented so poorly.

[2357] I think up until recently people just haven't understood what I didn't understand what it was until I became involved in it.

[2358] Right.

[2359] Yeah.

[2360] So I'm very thankful for people like you and people like Steve Ronella that open the door from me so and then i feel like as much as i preach about this and much as i'm redundant as fucking annoying to a lot of people listening i think i have a responsibility to to share what i've learned and to communicate about this even though people get mad at me you stop killing animals all caps yeah they're really mad yeah okay stop eating grain you fuck if you if you look people don't understand you go we've talked about this before yeah if you look at a grain field after it's been plowed, what do you see, vultures flying over?

[2361] Yeah, once that combine goes through and gets the wheat, I mean, there's all sorts of dead animals.

[2362] There's vizards flying around.

[2363] And, I mean, even, so you drink coffee?

[2364] How do you think the coffee beans, where those are grown, there's no weeds.

[2365] There's no, you know, I mean, it's just, there's animals dying for your coffee.

[2366] Yeah, there's animals dying for everything.

[2367] And I think the closer we can get to a real true organic.

[2368] relationship with life, with all life, plant life.

[2369] I mean, I fucking hate the idea of pesticides.

[2370] You know, I hate the idea that we're spraying things on certain plants to kill them so that we can grow other plants.

[2371] Yeah.

[2372] Like large scale agriculture, when you look at a giant cornfield, ladies and gentlemen, that is one of the most unnatural things in all of life.

[2373] And it is one of the most, the weirdest things we've just accepted as being natural.

[2374] It's not natural.

[2375] And that's one of the reasons why they have to dump nitrogen into the soil and all kinds of other shit and pesticides and use round up and use giant machines to grind up all this stuff and that's not I'm not saying you shouldn't eat wheat but I'm saying all of this is unnatural cities are unnatural right all this is unnatural right and the more we understand about the the true nature of our interactions with this life that we are we are surrounded with the better off will all be and it doesn't mean fingerprinting or saying that you should watch your family die in a fire like that's not helping anybody they don't understand that this it's just it's just digging in on both sides it's sort of the same thing that people do in politics you know the right hates the left and the left hates the right and nothing gets done because everybody's just digging in and supporting their side and it's just we we all need to realize that this life that we're experiencing is far more nuanced and requires far more research and far more understanding of all the different pieces that are moving.

[2376] That was another great thing about that hunting trip, is I had no idea what people were attacking Donald Trump for for about a week.

[2377] Or anybody.

[2378] Whether or not we were going to fight North Korea.

[2379] Yeah.

[2380] Didn't know anything.

[2381] It was awesome.

[2382] I was just hoping that no one got nuked in the time that we had no service for a week.

[2383] I was just hoping that there wasn't a new attack or.

[2384] Kim Jong -un didn't shoot a rocket over Japan or whatever the fuck it was.

[2385] I didn't know any of that, and everything worked out just fine, so that was a win -win.

[2386] And we're here.

[2387] Well, listen, brother, let's wrap this up.

[2388] Okay.

[2389] We just did three hours.

[2390] Amazing.

[2391] Goes by like that, right?

[2392] That was good.

[2393] Yeah, thank you very much.

[2394] Thank you.

[2395] Thank you for getting me into bow hunting.

[2396] Thanks for taking me on this epic trip.

[2397] Thanks to Under Armour.

[2398] Thanks to Tom, the owner of the ranch, and everybody else involved, and that's it.

[2399] All right.

[2400] All right, fuckers.

[2401] That's it.

[2402] See you soon.

[2403] Bye.

[2404] Keep hammering.

[2405] Keep hammering, bitches.