S14 E12: Classic Jake Bullsh*t

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] This season, guests will be sharing their own testimony in regards to the criminal allegations against Jake Gravbrot.

[11] All persons are assumed to be innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

[12] Guest experiences are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of myself, something was wrong, or Wondery.

[13] At the time of this episode's airing, Jake Gravbrot has not responded to our request for comment.

[14] If you have been a victim of Jake Ravbrot or have a crime tip in relation to these matters, please visit Something Was Wrong .com slash 14 for more information.

[15] All names of minors involved in this story have been changed for their privacy and protection.

[16] Some survivor names have also been changed for anonymity and safety purposes.

[17] Season 14 covers a variety of mature topics that can be upsetting, such as emotional, physical, and sexual violence.

[18] Content warnings for each episode and resources for survivors can be found in the episode notes.

[19] The podcast or any linked materials should not be construed as medical advice, nor is the information a substitute for professional medical expertise or treatment.

[20] Thank you so much for listening.

[21] Okay, Wednesday, December 21st.

[22] 1st, 2 p .m. We thought the season was over.

[23] Apparently, the universe has other plans.

[24] Melissa, if you want to speak about, how's the last week been, Melissa?

[25] Well, I was made aware towards the end of last week that Jake had filed for a anti -harassment order against me in Snohomish County.

[26] So I was obviously like, holy shit, what is going on?

[27] Someone actually got all the court papers for me because I'm not there, and I mean, it's just kind of wild.

[28] His statement is written on the 12th, but it was filed at 11 o 'clock on December 13th, so the day of the live.

[29] What day did you find this out, Melissa?

[30] He filed the 13th, and I believe that this was all uploaded on the 15th.

[31] I found out about it on the 16th, a couple days later.

[32] So mind -blowing to me, the audacity.

[33] The timing is just strange.

[34] I'm trying to communicate with you guys and figure out what's going on.

[35] It was like 11 o 'clock at night at my hotel, and at one point my kids get there, and I, like, went down the end of the hallway, and I'm like, in the stairwell, brawless, holding two phones, trying to talk to you guys and record at the same time.

[36] I can't imagine for you guys with the whole history and everything that you've been through, how surreal these kinds of moments are.

[37] Oh, here it.

[38] Oh, my God.

[39] Oh, my God.

[40] My name is Jacob Grab Brat, and the following is my statement.

[41] Over the course of 2022, being made aware to me on February 21st, Melissa has been directly involved in an online harassment campaign targeting me. For context, Melissa and I share a child together and she receives money every month from me through child support.

[42] What does that have to do with anything?

[43] I was made aware of a social media page on Instagram using my name and posting messages, old public record information, hearsay directed towards me. Melissa and I had a mutual.

[44] Here he is again with this bullshit.

[45] Melissa and I had a mutual five -year restraining order against each other.

[46] Never.

[47] That is still in effect.

[48] And I maintained my adherence to that, choosing not to wait into this targeted online campaign.

[49] Dude, he's still going to court fucking lying.

[50] He never had a restraining order against you.

[51] First of all, it's not a five -year restraining order.

[52] That, like, expired.

[53] That's what we went back to before.

[54] Right.

[55] It wasn't in a reading of odd order.

[56] It was a criminal restraining order because you assaulted our child.

[57] I'm so sorry, Melissa.

[58] How do you just I need to say it publicly?

[59] I started this Instagram.

[60] I'm a ringleader, guys.

[61] Melissa, as a ringleader and administrator and an admitted role she played, he's clearly reading shit and therefore been a direct instigator and stalker of me. The campaign began as an Instagram page that grew to nearly a thousand followers.

[62] he was keeping track and succeeded in getting me fired at my two jobs based on hearsay and allegations.

[63] The page lasted until August of 2022 before it was removed from Instagram for violating the terms of service.

[64] After the terms of service violation of podcast has begun, which has run weekly since October, culminating in a live question and answer with Melissa on December 13th.

[65] As of now, December 12th, I have for nine weeks been subjected to direct threats of violence, wishing of harm, stalking, hacking attempts, online defamation, financial violation, and more that I'm probably forgetting about in my attempt to finally put a stop to this.

[66] I've included proof of this via screenshots.

[67] Receiving threats of violence has me feeling unsafe in my day -to -day activities, including work.

[68] There's like a smudge on this, so I can't read part of this.

[69] Something myself and spending time with close friends and family.

[70] I used to lit this is like really hard to read i used to live in the city and i'm accustomed to walking with purpose and diligence while out and about but this has become a new level of fear and anxiety that i am being subjected to in april melissa opted to dredge up the just expired no contact order okay again it wasn't a no contact order it was a criminal restraining order that i asked to be renewed i'm like this is like mad but you do win it it fire.

[71] You either let it be or you go back.

[72] You dredged it.

[73] Yeah, I dredged it.

[74] Yeah, I dredged it.

[75] This order this order had resulted in five years of peace, quiet, and no fear of the other.

[76] If not for my knowledge of the online harassment campaign, I'd have not put any thought into Melissa for the duration of the no contact order.

[77] On my end, she was very successfully no longer a part of my thought process.

[78] It was nice and I was at peace.

[79] In my opinion, as Melissa was A direct admin for this online campaign, the show of taking me to court again was an attempt to score points online, but not for any actual legal good.

[80] And as she was the petitioner, the burden of proof stood on me in an attempt to keep the peace for another year.

[81] The court sided with caution to extend this order for one more year.

[82] So be it.

[83] I had no qualm with this.

[84] On my end, other than knowing for her it was to score points online.

[85] The actual order itself wouldn't change my life in any way.

[86] I'd avoided her for good reason for five years prior, and I...

[87] Yeah, because you would go to jail if you're a fucking dumbass.

[88] I will and shall continue to avoid her further.

[89] Oh my God, there's a whole other page of this.

[90] No. The last three months, however, have seriously changed how I view the actual order needs to be directed.

[91] I've done my job at holding up the agreement of no contact.

[92] Melissa has not.

[93] How is me telling my story on a podcast breaking no contact?

[94] It's not.

[95] And also he never had a no contact order.

[96] No, it's not no contact.

[97] I have a domestic violence restraining order against him.

[98] That's not agreed upon no contact order.

[99] Right.

[100] The judge can see that.

[101] The judge can see that.

[102] Well, this is involvement in this has directly caused threats of harm to come my way.

[103] It has resulted in a year and a year's long financial hardship.

[104] ongoing.

[105] The financial side of things is frustrating and unfair, in my opinion.

[106] But I never let that stop me from securing work and ensuring that every month my agreed upon child support was paid.

[107] However, it is the new and real threat of harm towards me that has left me thinking more about my own mortality and well -being.

[108] How when taken too far, the mob gets stirred up is a direct result of the leader holding the spatula.

[109] Here now and in the past, Melissa is the leader and direct instigator, fully aware of what is happening.

[110] I fear for my safety.

[111] I shouldn't have to live in this state.

[112] We are all aware of how things can spiral in situations like that.

[113] That's why I'm asking for immediate and direct intervention.

[114] I am asking that Melissa be ordered for no contact harassment and online defamation of being Jacob Grapprod.

[115] He's asking that I be restrained from harming him in any way, no contact, exclude and stay away, the protected person, the protected person's residence, the protected person's vehicle, protected person's workplace.

[116] He's claiming stalking behavior.

[117] He's asking me to be restrained from distributing or possessing intimate images of him.

[118] He asked for me, the restrained person must admit to electronic monitoring and the restrained person shall get an evaluation from mental health.

[119] Oh, and he wants me to pay his fees and costs.

[120] And surrender weapons.

[121] I'm just going through this whole list.

[122] I mean, it's just wild, all of these.

[123] Jacob, he's Jacob now, you guys.

[124] So be aware, no one would ever know this unless we clarified, but Jacob Gravbrot is also Jake Gravbrot.

[125] Just be aware.

[126] He's trying to go by Jacob because we even had a co -worker of his ride in and say that he gets mad if anybody calls him Jake.

[127] He only will go by Jacob now.

[128] I think he's since left that place of work and is now working somewhere else.

[129] The strangest part is the fucking spatula.

[130] We didn't even know the merch opportunity that was missed here when this season started.

[131] We could have had whole -ass season 14 spatulas for sale.

[132] Somebody said leaders with spatulas here to stir shit up.

[133] Kalin.

[134] It's ridiculous because the court can look up what it is.

[135] It's not like they're not able to look that up.

[136] And so for him to lie to the court, it's like, come on.

[137] The other thing that he says is my agreed upon child support was paid.

[138] Right now, the case is with the prosecutor, so he has to pay $700 a month total for both Ivy and Emerson.

[139] It used to include Bowie, but now that he's of age, and he's graduated, that's not, he's not in there as well.

[140] But it was for the two of them, that's not something we agreed upon.

[141] We didn't agree to get less money.

[142] He made that agreement with the prosecutor so he doesn't go to jail.

[143] It's not an agreed upon, he makes it sound like this is an agreed upon, had support with Melissa and I when that is not the case.

[144] At one point, he was paying $25 for all three kids during the pandemic.

[145] It's frustrating because this is a man that cannot contain himself from bragging when he was on social media or online anywhere.

[146] He cannot contain himself.

[147] He's constantly like, look at all these new clothes I got.

[148] Look at this vacation I'm going on.

[149] So you're being made aware of those things.

[150] and then getting court papers saying, oh, he's broke and not working.

[151] While he's contradicting that and posting online, I made more money this year than I've ever made.

[152] Anytime he does anything, it dredges up my anxiety to, like, huge levels.

[153] Because despite the fact that I think he's a total dumbass, and I mean, like this statement, he just sounds like an idiot.

[154] Even his examples in here of things that I'm supposedly doing, it's like people being mean to him or saying mean comments or a screenshot from the official something was wrong, Instagram page or the flyer for the live.

[155] I don't understand none of it is even like me. He has a couple comments of mine from online and they're not even anything to do with anything.

[156] It's just so weird.

[157] It's almost laughable and we do laugh about it, but it is scary at the same time because you know, this is somebody that's super unstable and he's dangerous when.

[158] he gets into these positions where he has nothing left to lose or he's facing consequences, that's when he's at his most dangerous.

[159] And that's when we've seen the craziest behavior from him is when he's backed up against the wall.

[160] This is like times 100 because there's going to be not much to fall back on because of the fallout from his own actions, the consequences that he's had.

[161] Kaelin probably can add to that too.

[162] It's just not surprising.

[163] Obviously hearing The statement that he wrote is really triggering.

[164] Reading anything of his sounds so much different than if just anybody wrote it.

[165] Most people don't write like that.

[166] But it's not surprising that he's grasping at straws and trying to file something.

[167] I'm sad that Melissa has to deal with it all.

[168] I wish that I was there to help.

[169] How can he file things that are lies and have no. repercussions for what he's doing.

[170] That's the other thing is we're so used to him doing these things where he just gets away with everything.

[171] He's not smart.

[172] He actually added one of the photos that he added in, and there's no explanation with this at all.

[173] So I don't know why he added it.

[174] There's no context.

[175] Most of these he's like written all over them, but this one does.

[176] And it's the picture of the security camera in his apartment.

[177] I'm like, why would you put that into public record?

[178] That's so bizarre.

[179] And then he's got a screenshot of the actual Jake accountability page with the bio that says Jake Gravra is a dangerous abusive narcissist.

[180] This account exposes decades of his mental, physical abuse towards women.

[181] He's painting a picture that it doesn't paint him in a good light.

[182] I can't imagine like taking this to a judge and being like, people are picking on me. People are being mean to me. That's basically what he's saying in this.

[183] Most of it is things that strangers are saying on the internet.

[184] and he's making the leap that because I was an admin on the Instagram page, I'm somehow, I don't know, like encouraging all of these people to do that, which none of us have ever done that.

[185] None of us have ever told people, go find him or harass him or anything like that.

[186] There's one, what is this?

[187] One more page.

[188] Oh, here's the actual motion.

[189] They denied this.

[190] So he has 14 days to provide more evidence to have it filed.

[191] One thing that didn't make it into the podcast because it was a later discovery when we were going through the evidence.

[192] There was these text messages that we had found that Mimi had provided.

[193] Sarah, can you just speak to what Jake alleged in the text messages since you were actually with him that same weekend?

[194] Yeah, I think in the text messages, it was clear like Mimi was pressing Jake a little bit on his alibi and what he was doing or questioning him about stuff.

[195] And his go -to defense is always, I'm having the hardest time of my life and poor me stories.

[196] And in this particular instance, I think he went to the whole saying that when he was in D .C., someone was literally dying in his arms.

[197] And that's something that never happened.

[198] If it was factual, I definitely would have heard about it, considering I was in D .C. with him for at least 24 hours.

[199] And then when I left, we were talking constantly.

[200] There was no way I would not have heard about that.

[201] So it's just another one of his tactics.

[202] Yeah, I have it.

[203] Okay, so this is the text message exchange between Mimi and Jake.

[204] This was definitely after Mimi and I had connected because she had changed his contact photo to a photo he took and sent me when he was in Milwaukee.

[205] As a reminder, I think, that he's always lying.

[206] She's definitely asking him about who he had been with and who he had been traveling with.

[207] And then she asked him about DC when he responds, DC was insanity.

[208] I saw someone die.

[209] I held him as he died.

[210] And she goes, yeah, with your girl there, I bet that was hell of tough.

[211] To which he responds with his classic, I've been through too much this year.

[212] I'm having a hard time.

[213] This is all too much.

[214] I wasn't there for that.

[215] She flew out for one day.

[216] My job was to cover the march on Washington.

[217] She just happened to decide to fly.

[218] I'm sorry, eternally sorry, and I'll go to my grave with that sorrow and my heart for the pain I have caused.

[219] So it's just like classic Jake bullshit.

[220] We definitely feel for anyone that has to deal with him as this is all going down anytime, but especially especially now, because we do fear for them.

[221] While we would love that line of communication to be open and we have the receipts, we just know what it's like to be so in it and be manipulated by him and to question your own reality.

[222] We feel for whoever's going through that currently.

[223] He really knows how to pick him.

[224] He can spot women that are kind and empathetic.

[225] He's very calculated and purposeful and he's not just going through life seeing what happens.

[226] Everything is very calculated.

[227] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[228] I'm Sachi Cole.

[229] And I'm Sarah Haggy.

[230] And we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time the impact on victims and what's left once the facade falls away.

[231] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment but soon faced mounting bills an active lawsuit followed by Larry King and no real product to push.

[232] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[233] To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Judice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[234] Follow Scamfluencers on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[235] You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad -free right now on Wondry Plus.

[236] I'm Dan Tversky.

[237] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[238] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[239] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[240] She's like, I can't.

[241] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[242] It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[243] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[244] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[245] Well, you were holding something back intentionally.

[246] Yeah, yeah.

[247] Well, yeah.

[248] No, it's hysteria.

[249] It's all in your head.

[250] It's not physical.

[251] Oh, my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[252] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the witches of Salem?

[253] Or is it something else entirely?

[254] Something's wrong here.

[255] Something's not right.

[256] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[257] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios.

[258] Hysterical.

[259] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[260] You can binge all episodes of Histerical early and ad -free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[261] The second portion of today's episode was recorded live on December 13th, 2022.

[262] At our season 14, something was wrong, live Q &A recording event.

[263] This audio has been edited for rebroadcast.

[264] Hi, I think we're live.

[265] Are we live?

[266] Oh my gosh, thank you guys so much for joining us.

[267] I am so, so excited to be here.

[268] This is a completely new experience and different thing for us.

[269] So thank you all for being a part of that.

[270] We're going to kick off with some pre -submitment.

[271] questions.

[272] If we don't get to all the questions, we will make time for the actual episode that's going to air a few weeks from now after the finale.

[273] How many women came forward was the first question.

[274] It's really important to preface with, we have no idea the exact number because it's been measurable at this point, unfortunately due to the Instagram page being taken down.

[275] The number that we have just from the timeline that was impartial that we created was around 45.

[276] If you were up to you, what would happen to Jake?

[277] What would be the outcome of this podcast and this sort of movement that you guys have all created?

[278] And I wanted to start by saying, I really wanted this time together to be a celebration of what these women have done, not only the women at this table, but all of the survivors, as well as the men who came forward to support the survivors, who spoke with me on and off the record.

[279] The fact that this has all taken place in like this amount of time is, Maybe you guys could speak to that, what it's been like, because it's been like zero to 100, I feel like, all year.

[280] Okay, I'll start.

[281] With the Instagram, it was kind of overwhelming at first.

[282] We were getting a lot of people coming forward.

[283] For me, I can only, like, mentally hang on to so much.

[284] It was a really sad time because I definitely wish it ended with me. I just feel really bad that it continued and that I wasn't able to stop it.

[285] this is our best idea to try to either stop him or slow him down.

[286] Obviously, we would love for him to actually be investigated for the claims.

[287] It would be nice to be taken seriously.

[288] We have Sarah here via Zoom.

[289] Did you want to chime in on that one?

[290] Sure.

[291] Yeah, I can really only echo what you guys have said.

[292] I think that a lot of the women that came forward, especially only had the suspicion or were really worried about being recorded.

[293] It would be great to put some of those worries to ease and find out.

[294] for fact and have him brought to justice for that.

[295] One thing that I think is really important and I wanted to speak to is like in the trauma cycle, obviously there is the honeymoon stage, there's the good behavior, the bad behavior, and everything in between.

[296] The show is called Something Was Wrong, Not Something Was Right.

[297] So we're not going to talk a lot about something was right.

[298] We talk about the good times very briefly on the show because we don't have time.

[299] This person has perpetuated so much harm and abuse.

[300] I'm barely fitting it all into 12 episodes.

[301] That is the impact of this person.

[302] That is how horrible that this person is and the impact that they have had is just like a complete wake.

[303] I know that that's something that came up.

[304] Like, I hope they're going to talk about the good times.

[305] What do you say to that?

[306] First of all, I would have edited it out because we don't have time to talk about all the good times.

[307] I feel like we tried to really speak to it without giving tons of examples.

[308] It's been a long time.

[309] Back when I met him, it was 15 years ago, and we didn't talk about trauma cycles.

[310] there was no talking about narcissistic abuse or gaslighting, red flags, like nothing, right?

[311] So I could tell that there was a cycle because I could feel things moving through.

[312] There's the love bombing and then calm.

[313] The calm was always kind of mundane.

[314] It's day -to -day stuff.

[315] I was, you know, we were living together.

[316] I really didn't see him very much because our schedules were so opposite that I didn't spend very much time with him.

[317] Well, you were pregnant having to take the bus to work while he slept in.

[318] So the calm, and then the building, and that's like walking on eggshells, I could feel something happening.

[319] The big difference is like the cycle starts moving quicker and quicker, right?

[320] It was happening every maybe six months.

[321] And then as time went on, it was happening like monthly.

[322] So toward the end there, it was once a month, there was like love bombing, calm, the buildup, and then the blow up.

[323] It wasn't long.

[324] It was like always for like four hours.

[325] And then it was, I'm so sorry and this and this.

[326] And a lot of emails and letters and texts that were very super over the top.

[327] A lot of the times he was like, I'm never going to do that again.

[328] Well, he usually would stick to his word.

[329] Like when he spit in my face, like, I'm never going to do that again.

[330] He never did that again.

[331] But then he did these other things.

[332] It was a long time ago.

[333] And so it is really hard for me to remember the good times because it was.

[334] was a really long time ago and like all the really bad stuff stuck.

[335] It's hard for me to speak to that because it was so long ago and I just, it didn't stick.

[336] Yeah.

[337] It's just so interesting how the focus so often and I don't want to spend too much time talking about like trolls and comments and negative things like that.

[338] But I know that you guys have participated in that a little bit and so that has kind of like filtered in a little bit.

[339] But I think that it's really easy to forget that when people are tuning in sometimes that these are real human beings, this is their real life, this is not entertainment.

[340] I understand that element and aspect of it, but I hope that with this season, because you guys are using your real names and your faces, I hope that it humanizes survivors to those people who struggle to understand and spend their time focusing on why did she stay instead of anything but Jake's horrible behavior.

[341] Okay, why was the Instagram taken down?

[342] Well, first of all, I think we should clarify, like, we didn't take it down.

[343] No. Sarah, do you want to speak to that?

[344] From the start, we had the Instagram set to private, and we were pretty selective about filtering, who got to see it.

[345] We went and followed people knowing who they were or, you know, that they were adjacent to Jake in some way.

[346] So when they would follow back, we would accept them.

[347] Any of the children that were old enough to see the page, we wanted to protect them.

[348] And then, too, we just didn't want Jake.

[349] to be able to see a lot of the stuff because we weren't sure what the reaction would be or that it would get reported and taken down before it got to do any good.

[350] Eventually, that's what happened.

[351] Once we went public, it was pretty much out of our control and we felt like it had grown big enough at that point.

[352] Whatever was going to happen from that point on was beyond us.

[353] But I'm sure that there were many attempts to get that Instagram taken down and reported.

[354] I personally have never submitted a report on Instagram or tried to get anything taken down or flagged, but I have heard that it's like a lengthy process and most of the time nothing is done.

[355] This didn't happen until August.

[356] It took quite some time, but I think enough reporting had been done.

[357] And the investigation protocol for Instagram is kind of weird.

[358] I think it depends on what you're being reported for.

[359] We were reported for human exploitation, which is a charge that you can't even dispute.

[360] So once we got the notification that the Instagram was going to be taken down, been a race.

[361] We couldn't even put in a claim tell our side of it for review.

[362] And this is the only case in which that's the outcome.

[363] My personal Instagram, my business Facebook and personal Facebook were all wiped with it because I was the one who created it.

[364] So I think it was tied to my phone number or my IP, even though I used different email addresses.

[365] And I tried to get around that.

[366] All my stuff got wiped with it.

[367] So I had to kind of like start all over again.

[368] I just felt so bad for Sarah.

[369] She had so much that she lost in that whole process.

[370] Pictures of her kids and stuff like that too, right, Sarah?

[371] And your business page, things of that nature.

[372] Yeah, I would still do it again.

[373] I don't think that there was a way around.

[374] Someone had to create it, and I'm glad that it was me, by all means.

[375] I just took it as a sign.

[376] It was time to rebrand and start over in the business aspect.

[377] Is Jake's family a part of Emerson and Ivy's lives?

[378] No. Are there boundaries in place to protect Emerson and Ivy?

[379] Yes.

[380] The parenting plan is no contact, no visitation.

[381] I don't really expect to hear anything from him, maybe ever again.

[382] We've turned a corner now, whereas before, I felt really guilty removing him.

[383] One of the questions was, have y 'all had contact with Bowie?

[384] Yes.

[385] Yes.

[386] Yes.

[387] Yes.

[388] Does Jake have siblings?

[389] and if so, do they, his family think?

[390] What do they think?

[391] Do you guys know what they think?

[392] No. I mean, Kaylon spoke a bit to Jake's mom's reactions when she would try to involve her with stuff.

[393] His older half -sister, I don't think that they have very much of a relationship.

[394] They really didn't ever when I was around.

[395] He has two younger half -siblings from his mom and his stepdad, and I know one of them followed the Instagram and was watching everything.

[396] So I'm assuming they know everything now.

[397] Somebody knows that.

[398] Yeah, and his cousins are pretty aware of what's going on.

[399] And so I think it's kind of like filtered through the family maybe a little bit.

[400] I don't really know.

[401] Were they in court?

[402] They were not in court, but his mom did write.

[403] She was one of the character witness statements.

[404] And Kalen had sent his mom the pictures of Ivy's face.

[405] So she knew.

[406] Yeah.

[407] And she still wrote that statement for him.

[408] So.

[409] Did you find the court process?

[410] helpful.

[411] No. No. Absolutely not.

[412] It was a miserable experience.

[413] Obviously I talked about my process with trying to get him for justice and that the detective twice tried to bury that case, did not want him charged.

[414] He cried, though.

[415] Yeah, he cried.

[416] He felt bad.

[417] He felt bad.

[418] That's all it takes.

[419] You could ruin his life.

[420] I don't know how anybody could argue that after seeing the photos.

[421] It's disgusting.

[422] Honestly, this man is incredibly capable of manipulating judges.

[423] And I think Kailen and I listened to this thing earlier, and I can't remember the exact quote, but it was something about family court doesn't exist to protect children.

[424] It exists to protect parenting rights.

[425] They care more about parental rights than they do about.

[426] Preserving his rights as a parent than they do about protecting the child.

[427] And that's incredibly frustrating.

[428] Not to mention that judges are not always trained in domestic violence.

[429] So they don't necessarily know how to handle someone like Jake who is not going to change.

[430] He's going to continue to get worse.

[431] So you're giving him chance after chance after chance, and he's going to continue to escalate, which means you are just continuing to put these children in danger.

[432] Coercive narcissism and coercive abusers is so insidious.

[433] There's so much happening below the surface, and that's something that, everybody really spoke to.

[434] And it's really prevalent when we look at people who hide in social justice spaces, churches, doctors, anywhere where you're automatically sort of given this invisibility cloak or this natural trust that you gain by holding that position of power.

[435] And as we saw with Jake, he completely exploited every workplace he was put into, every opportunity he was given.

[436] He essentially used it to exploit, manipulate, and harm women and children.

[437] I think it's just confusing for some folks who haven't encountered someone like that because they're like, but they seem really nice.

[438] And it's like, yeah, behind closed doors, that's not the person they are, that they're really good at what they do.

[439] I went to court with lots of evidence.

[440] I had him talking about getting guns and killing us and all this stuff.

[441] And they're like, well, he's talking about you and yeah, we'll give you a restraining orbit, but not for her.

[442] And so I was thinking, I don't understand what it takes to protect my daughter from him.

[443] What's the most surprising reaction from listeners?

[444] Having people reach out and say, like, this is so validating or this really help me or this is my experience.

[445] Somebody else messaged me and said, I have a really close friend that's going through something similar.

[446] Like, how do I support her?

[447] I basically was like, just be there and let her know that you're there for her and give her a safe space.

[448] If you're willing, let her know, you're always welcome, no questions asked.

[449] because I think it's really hard to admit what's going on.

[450] It's really embarrassing and so shameful.

[451] It is really hard when you're in it.

[452] You're not like, you know what I'm going to do?

[453] I'm going to go get an abusive relationship.

[454] And then, you know, I'll have a plan in place of what I'm going to do once I find myself there.

[455] I realize, too, Jake's financial abuse on me, it definitely was purposeful.

[456] It took my ability to leave away.

[457] I'd have to leave the state to be with my family.

[458] As far as bank accounts go, like my money was our money and his money was his money.

[459] If you're being financially abused, it's so much harder to leave and you don't have what you need to do that.

[460] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[461] She had been under the influence and she left him there.

[462] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reid was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[463] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel and route to the next location.

[464] What happens next?

[465] Depends on who you ask.

[466] Was it a crime of passion?

[467] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[468] This was clearly an intentional act.

[469] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[470] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[471] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover.

[472] up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[473] Everyone had an opinion.

[474] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[475] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[476] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[477] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondry Plus.

[478] Join Wondery Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, Or Spotify.

[479] Back to the family court thing.

[480] I mean, we've had so many people share stories with us of their experiences.

[481] And I think it made us both understand, like, how lucky we are because this is not a normal outcome for these situations.

[482] There are so many people that are still having to send their children on visits with a convicted abuser.

[483] Horrific stories that have been shared with us that are just like, there was documented sexual abuse.

[484] there was documented, all of these things, and judges are still throwing these kids back into these situations again.

[485] I feel so lucky that this worked out the way that it did for me. I just feel so bad for all of these people.

[486] It's horrifying.

[487] Having to be in these situations for so long.

[488] What is something you wish people would understand better about your experience?

[489] Sarah, or sorry, what you think?

[490] Do we cut to Sarah?

[491] You look so cute in your little iPad over there.

[492] We wish you were here with us.

[493] We love you.

[494] I love you guys too.

[495] Speaking directly to the people who don't understand why people stay, I wasn't with him for very long, so there were enough red flags and negative experiences to walk away.

[496] But I would say, given my previous trauma, he's really good at reading people, and people like Jake have this skill to read people and know how to appeal to the things of their past and how to manipulate them based on their trauma.

[497] Everyone has their own traumas and their own history and family generational stuff that they're trying to break.

[498] So given my own and the patterns in my own family and personal life, there's a reason why Jake targeted me and so many other beautiful, intelligent, strong women who were overly empathetic and giving him so many passes.

[499] There were so many women within my timeline.

[500] we were in COVID.

[501] These were passes that I was giving him that I wouldn't otherwise give in dating.

[502] The financial distress, understanding that he was an independent contractor, I was too, and losing, like, I lost so much work in the pandemic and I had to figure out what my next move was.

[503] So when he couldn't pay for certain things or he was late on child support, I was having a lot of empathy for this person and trying to understand that we're in unprecedented times.

[504] His recent divorce, all these things compiled.

[505] And personally, I use those things to excuse why he was down so bad and let go of a lot of bad behavior.

[506] But that's, if it's not COVID, it's something else with these type of people.

[507] So they'll always find something to get you to excuse these patterns, get you to excuse their bad behavior and their abuse.

[508] I think the hardest part is they show you enough of the good stuff that you have a hard time reconciling that when something happens that's out.

[509] of their control, what tends to come out there.

[510] So then you're having to take these two people that don't match up and try to figure out what is what or if the truth is somewhere in the middle.

[511] And that's why it's so hard to leave that cycle because your heart wants to believe one thing and then your head starts to believe the other.

[512] Getting out within six months, like I'm proud of myself for that.

[513] And I hope that other people have compassion for themselves and don't listen to the internet or someone who doesn't have that same experience.

[514] And we have enough guilt and shame as it is staying longer.

[515] But there's nothing really to be embarrassed about.

[516] We're all breaking our own things and our own patterns.

[517] So I think that everyone should be proud for seeing what signs that they did and then use that to reconcile how to move forward.

[518] Yeah, absolutely.

[519] I think, like, instead of asking women why they stay, maybe congratulate them on getting out alive and making it through.

[520] We were being studied.

[521] He was manipulating us.

[522] It's hard to figure out what's real and what's not, because he's taking everything that you are insecure about and using it against you, then you start to doubt yourself and you start to feel like you're crazy.

[523] What has it been like having so much of yourself, especially such delicate and sensitive parts of yourself out there?

[524] Melissa, the experience that you went through, your daughter went through, is so incredibly painful and horrific, and I'm sure it wasn't a decision you made lightly.

[525] Can you speak to that?

[526] Yeah, I mean, none of it is overly easy to talk about.

[527] I mean, we are sharing the worst moments of our lives.

[528] It's difficult to put it into words how you arrive to the place to decide to share on a platform like this.

[529] It's definitely for the greater good.

[530] We just really want to slow them down.

[531] This is for me. Did I ever get a hold of Justin Bieber's team for a statement?

[532] Justin, I'm waiting and ready whenever you are.

[533] I did send a statement, the official way, through to his publicist.

[534] They did not respond for comment, which is not uncommon.

[535] Why did we decide to use real names?

[536] I remember meeting with you, Kaelin, the first time.

[537] Do you mind if I speak to that?

[538] And you're just like, he's just going to keep doing this.

[539] His name's already out there.

[540] Please consider this.

[541] We wouldn't have done it if we didn't use his real name, only because that was our driving force was to slow him down or to stop him.

[542] And it's like, well, what's the point if nobody even knows?

[543] is it's him.

[544] Mm -hmm.

[545] And also, his name was already out there.

[546] It's not something that any of us took lightly.

[547] It was very much deliberate from the gate.

[548] Like, no, fuck Jake Grav -B -B -R -B -R -B -R -B -R -T, and fuck him all day.

[549] For me, seeing the pictures of the babies, I was like, okay, I don't care what happens to me or what's going to possibly come onto me because of that.

[550] I'm at a place now where I can do this.

[551] I am so appreciative of y 'all for doing it with me and trusting me because I'm a survivor like y 'all and I've certainly learned so much over the seasons.

[552] But this was like a completely new experience in that way.

[553] And I'm really, really thankful that I got to go through it with all of y 'all.

[554] And the amazing community, all the women that we've met through Instagram, too, that I got to interview and spend time with, these are incredible women.

[555] The coming together of that is so beautiful.

[556] And I think is this one of the silver linings within the story.

[557] Oh, it's like the best part of the story, right?

[558] It's like everybody, yes, it's quite magical, to be honest.

[559] Let's see.

[560] What would be like a good wrap -up question?

[561] Let's see.

[562] Oh, Amy's got one.

[563] But the chat room would love an update on the women now.

[564] Can I grab Michael to come out?

[565] Yeah.

[566] We have a surprise guest in the room.

[567] Come here.

[568] This is Michael.

[569] This is my husband.

[570] He's amazing.

[571] We've been married, well, we're going on three years.

[572] This is Emerson's dad.

[573] He takes her to shows and teaches their things.

[574] I'm so beyond grateful, and I don't think you probably realized how impactful and, like, how helpful and just takes her to school every day for me because I'm working and financially supports us.

[575] He treats me amazing.

[576] I'm so lucky, and I don't think he realizes how amazing he is.

[577] Well, I'm happy for both of you.

[578] We've got a few minutes left.

[579] Any, like, last thoughts?

[580] I know we kicked off with thank yous, but I know.

[581] that was really important.

[582] I'm just really thankful for all of the people that we met through the Instagram.

[583] We met some really incredible, both men and women, people that have been so supportive, have become friends in real life, such a positive environment that we created because there's been so much empowerment and friendship that's come out of it.

[584] And I'm really thankful for all of that.

[585] Yeah.

[586] And so much support.

[587] Those women supported us from day one.

[588] Carly coming forward and supporting me and like me being able to support her and Julie and those are both like during my time so for them to come forward and do that was the gift to me. Carrie's been amazing like she reaches out to me regularly.

[589] There's another person that didn't participate but she reaches out.

[590] The list goes on.

[591] Maria.

[592] It's just really all of them are, have been so amazing and it's been really cool to get to know them like outside of this situation and outside of Jake and be able to like cheer them on and support them like Maria's in finals right now go Maria um things like that it's just been really cool amazing Sarah can you speak to the last question yeah I can just really echo what they're saying it's been so great getting to know and connect with so many women that came forward on the Instagram page but everyone that's been invested in the podcast have been really supportive and sharing so many kind words, that's been amazing and extremely validating for each of us.

[593] Connecting with Kaylin and Melissa, they have become, like, my family.

[594] And the girls, like, I love them.

[595] They know my daughter.

[596] You guys are my family now, so that is the silver lining and all of this.

[597] And huge thank you to Tiffany for bringing, giving us, like, this platform to, you know, be able to share our stories.

[598] So that's huge to us, and we're so grateful.

[599] Yeah.

[600] It's an honor and a privilege.

[601] You're all amazing.

[602] I love you so much.

[603] I mean, I just want to, like, echo really quick with Sarah said.

[604] Melissa's my best friend.

[605] We normally talk every day.

[606] With all of this, there's like a little less chatter between us, but it does not usually include anything about Jake.

[607] We're best friends separate from all this and she's my family and Sarah's now part of that.

[608] I'm just really lucky to have these ladies in my life.

[609] Absolutely.

[610] I agree.

[611] And you now too.

[612] You're part of that.

[613] We sucked you in.

[614] Sorry.

[615] Thank you so much all three of you and again, every survivor and participant this season for coming to you.

[616] together and supporting the survivors.

[617] Thank you, thank you.

[618] Thanks for listening.

[619] Yes, thank you for listening.

[620] Something Was Wrong is a broken cycle media production, created and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese.

[621] If you'd like to support the show further, you can share episodes with your loved ones, leave a positive review, or follow Something Was Wrong on Instagram at Something Was Wrong podcast.

[622] Our theme song was composed by Gladrags.

[623] Check out their album, Wonder Under.

[624] Thank you so much.

[625] If you like something was wrong, you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[626] Prime members can listen ad -free on Amazon music.

[627] Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery .com slash survey.