Lewis Capaldi: The Untold Story Of Becoming A Global Superstar At 22

[0] No one has ever asked me the questions that you've asked me today.

[1] Releasing the music first time in like three years.

[2] This time I'm shitting myself.

[3] Why?

[4] I remember that video of you doing your...

[5] You found out your net worth.

[6] Oh yeah.

[7] That's 10 fucking million quids sitting about somewhere.

[8] Where the fuck is it?

[9] No label would ever tell you that is the strategy to become successful.

[10] You can fully just put a picture of you where towel wraps around your head and these stupid glasses on where you're top of.

[11] on a big massive poster on the tube.

[12] It's less about being like a polished fucking pop star, whatever.

[13] People see through that shit.

[14] You are living an extraordinarily unhuman life.

[15] What is the reality?

[16] I have really bad anxiety.

[17] It never reached a tipping point until after getting famous.

[18] I fucking hate recording albums.

[19] Despise doing music videos.

[20] I only do all that stuff because playing live is this fucking unparalleled thing that you can't compare it to anything else.

[21] So like when that was making me feel, feel shy if it's like, fuck, I don't know if I can do any of this shit anymore.

[22] My dad gave me a lift home from the airport one night, and I was twitching like, fuck, to the point where he started crying in the cat.

[23] I couldn't concentrate on work I was doing because I was so convinced that I was going to die.

[24] What is the question that no one asks you that would reveal the most untapped answer?

[25] I think.

[26] Without further ado, I'm Stephen Butler, and this is the diary of a CEO.

[27] I hope nobody's listening.

[28] But if you are, then please keep this yourself.

[29] Hello.

[30] When you look back, and I was reading about your childhood, I found it really fascinating, when you look back at those early dots that you, I think sometimes in hindsight we can connect and go, ah, that was a reason I became the person I am today, or that was a really significant early moment.

[31] What were those first early dots that you connect and go, that's why I ended up where I am today?

[32] I think for me it's probably the first one I can remember is like I remember just being on holiday in France we used to go on these mad like caravan holidays in France me and my mom and my dad and my two older brothers my older sister and there was like I don't know for some reason I had become obsessed with Queen I must have been like four years old but like we got like a CD and the like I remember those free CD newspapers like where you would pull it out stuff so we got that and it had like we will rock you by Queen on it and it had we are the champions as well and I remember like just I became obsessed with it and I was like listening all the way through Downey where we were going so we drove from Scotland to France so it was like I just remember listening to that constantly on repeat and then being I don't know if I'd ever showed an interest in singing prior to this or being a singer or anything like but I remember we were at like one of those, like, a band was playing, it was like a karaoke thing, like one of the family entertainment nights or whatever.

[33] And for some reason, I just asked if I could go up and sing, We Will Rock You by Queen.

[34] And it was glad, and I went up and I did it.

[35] And there's a picture of me doing it.

[36] Like, I'm tiny and I've got this microphone.

[37] So I did it.

[38] And then I think I got a buzz for it or whatever, and for whatever reason, I asked if I could go back up and do another song and I did another song.

[39] And it was like, for me, that's the first kind of memory of like, like singing and getting a buzz for like oh I'm up here and I'm doing this thing in front of people it's like again I have no other memory of like singing prior to that but this was like just the first time I'd ever like got up in front of people and sang and being like oh this is like a wee bit of a buzz like even at four do you know what I mean which is mad to think now but like yeah I don't know what sort of possessed me to get up and do it but it was so that must have been fucking i don't know like i would have been like 2000 or something maybe that that happened um but yeah i still don't i still can't like put a finger on why i did it or what what the reason was for getting up on it but um you're four years old four years old yeah yeah it was a it was a strange one and it was like a like a party or something it was like uh like you go in these fucking it's kind of these kind of package holidays that you go with your family they have like kids clubs and they have like entertainment nights so it's like everyone kind of congregates in this theater kind of bit in the middle and it's like they have a band on and they have like I don't know fucking puppet show or some shaglet I don't know I can't really remember I haven't been back since I don't often hang around you no yeah yeah they didn't book me back but yeah so then it was like yeah it was just that it was that was the first time we did it and it was yeah I can't I can't put my finger on why what would you like that age, at that sort of under 10 age in terms of confidence, because to say, do you know, I want to go up on stage and sing in a group of front of strangers, seems like quite an abnormal thing for a child to volunteer to do.

[40] Totally.

[41] I think prior to being, like, 10, and prior to, like, I don't know, prior to going to high school or whatever and that, maybe not even like that, but like, when I was younger, I was definitely quite like outgoing, I'd say.

[42] Like, I was quite, I remember I watched, um, When I was, like, five, I watched Austin Powers.

[43] Like, I was, like, religiously watching Austin Powers.

[44] I don't know why my parents allowed me to do that.

[45] But, like, I would, like, go to family parties and be asked to recite, like, I'm a fat bastard out of Austin Powers, like, the big fat guy that he plays.

[46] But I'd be asked to, like, recite parts of his thing.

[47] And I would do it in front everybody and all the rest of it.

[48] But it was never, like, again, it was never singing.

[49] It was just, like, acting the goat and, like, take the piss.

[50] And, yeah, like, I would get up.

[51] and recite all these fat bastard bits and fucking so yeah I was definitely like more I was definitely like a an outgoing kid I think I definitely liked to be I was probably loud and I kind of like to be like I guess I kind of like people The feedback Yeah I like feedback I like people watching me do things I liked seeing people enjoying something that I was doing Do you know why?

[52] I don't know I don't know.

[53] It's a strange one because I never, I guess I never put much thought into it when I was five or whatever, but I don't know if it's like, I don't know if maybe like making a, like, my parents laugh or something made me feel like, oh, that's a buzz or whatever, like, I don't know, yeah.

[54] I've sat here with quite a lot of comedians, you know, Jimmy Carr, Russell Kane, Russell Howard.

[55] And that's been one of the really fascinating things for me is like trying to find out why at a young age they got a real buzz from performing and making people laugh.

[56] And actually, I think it was Jimmy Carr that said something to me. He said instead of, you know, because there's this kind of stereotype that you do that because you're depressed and you're trying to, I don't know.

[57] But Jimmy Carr said to me, when you see that behavior in a comedian, don't ask them if they're depressed.

[58] ask them, which one of their parents were they trying to cheer up?

[59] All right, wow, interesting.

[60] Yeah, that is interesting.

[61] I don't know, my parents, when I was, I went to a therapist a couple years ago who had said, my, my mum's mum died when I was three of, like, cancer.

[62] Not like cancer.

[63] It was cancer.

[64] McLean.

[65] And then a year after, her aunt, like, committed suicide.

[66] who was, sorry, my mum's sister, my aunt, committed suicide.

[67] So my mum lost her mum and a sister in, like, within a year of each other.

[68] So I don't know if maybe that's, like, I'm quite like a hypochondriac and I'm kind of like, I always think I'm at a lot of dying.

[69] And when I was younger, my mum used to tuck me on ice to always be like, have you locked the doors, like even when I was like four or five or whatever?

[70] And a therapist told me that that was kind of like, that might be because of like being exposed to the fact that people are, gone, like people disappear, people aren't, like, I was aware of what death was at a young age, so I don't know if maybe that's, like, having seen, like, that sort of, like, that sort of, like, profound sadness in my mum when she's, like, lost her mum and lost her sister.

[71] I don't know if maybe that's...

[72] Was it profound sadness that you saw?

[73] Oh, for sure.

[74] Like, I mean, it's obviously, I mean, I can't imagine losing my mum at this, I mean, I'm at 25, my mum would have been 34 when she lost her mum.

[75] so yeah for sure I have like vivid memories like going into my mum's room and she was crying in bed I think this might have been when my aunt died but her crying in bed and talking about like and then being like having to tell me or like you know he passed away or whatever or like I just didn't I wasn't feel aware of what was going on but I just saw her so like heartbroken and so yeah so distraught that this happened so I don't know if maybe that's it's an interesting thought of like I don't know if maybe that's fed into it and like me doing anything I could to like either cheer them up or distract them or whatever I don't know but um but yeah it's an interesting how old were you when that happened I was three when my grand died and three and three quarters when my aunt committed suicide so I was I was young for sure it's it's really I don't think people realize how much kids can feel the pain of their parents I I had an incident with my sister -in -law and her and my niece where my, probably the instance that taught me this lesson where my sister -in -law was crying, was upset about something.

[76] And I just looked down at my niece and my niece is glued up at her and my niece explodes in tears as well.

[77] That kind of relationship we have, like, of intuitively knowing if our parents are feeling something.

[78] Of course.

[79] I think that, yeah, I think it is.

[80] Kids do, I mean, it's a thing now where people are kind of talking about more, kids see a lot more.

[81] I actually watched that Joe Wicks documentary a few weeks ago when he was talking about his parents' addictions and things and he says like yeah, kids see so much more and are aware of so much more than we actually know and I totally agree because even now if I'm at a funeral could be for someone I have never met in my life but my mum knew them if I had to run and my mum's crying and I'll start crying.

[82] So it's like something that's like obviously learnt like you see your mum crying it's one of the worst things you can possibly see your mum or your dad or any of your brother's sisters is in pain or crying or like really going through something.

[83] And I think, yeah, it's something that just does, even now, it sticks with it.

[84] And Fizz, I read this study about these monkeys, these recess monkeys, and it showed that if the mother recess monkey had a phobia of spiders, then all of the babies would be scared whenever they saw a spider.

[85] And that kind of showed you, you're talking about hypochondria there, and you're talking about, like, using your parents as a steer as to what is dangerous, what is sad, all those things.

[86] do you think that you're you said you had like a hypochondria yeah yeah yeah totally you think that came from your mother's caution I think it's not necessarily my mum's actually my mother's a nurse so she's not like she is like the least like if I phone and I say mum I've got a headache I'm dizzy I think I've got like a tumour or something she'll be like shut the fuck up you're fine like listen take some paracetamil go to sleep you'll be grand I'll see you later my dad is a very I, the older I get the more I understand that my dad I get all my anxieties and things from my dad.

[87] My dad's like a warrior for sure and he's a catastrophizer as well like his mind goes to like yeah the other day he went to chat, he went to my brother's house chapped from the door.

[88] My brother never answered my brother was in the shower and my dad had convinced himself there was a gas leak in the house and my brother like immediate jump like no like stepping ladder to that it was chat with door no answer chat we're doing again right gas leak something's wrong banging the door my brother comes out and I tell him he's like what the fuck are you doing this is like mental and my dad's up but that's like I mean it comes from like an amazing place but it's something that he just has in his mind and I think he's a hypochondriac as well and he kind of has yeah I think I've learned that from him in the sense of he's a he's a warrior in that sense but I do think that because I never thought about my aunt and grandmother passing away is like a big thing in my childhood which is which now when I say that out loud it sounds mental because when I'm like oh it wasn't a big thing or whatever but like so I think it's probably that like that sort of like awareness of death and awareness that you're not around forever and your parents like because then immediately I'm like oh my mom's passing away like my mum will probably like do you know what I mean that's immediately in your head as a kid so I can't remember why I got on to asking with her about like locking the door when I was a kid and she was have you locked the door I don't understand and I still don't remember how that became a thing but um but yeah no so I think I definitely get a lot of my hypochondria and my worry and my anxiety from my father and my mother's quite quite calm, cool and collected if I'm the older I get, the more I'm realising that, do you know what I mean?

[89] But, yeah.

[90] I sat here with a guy called Jack, Jack, mate.

[91] And he talked about health anxiety and OCD, and he really opened up about it.

[92] And I, you know, people use these terms flippantly.

[93] They say, I've got OCD, or I'm sorry, I'm a hypercontriac.

[94] And they use them so flippantly to describe, like, the tiniest little, something's not neat, I've got OCD.

[95] Or, you know, you might find a lump and go, oh, it's, you know, jokingly say it's this.

[96] And then someone will flippantly say, say, oh, you're a hypochondriac.

[97] Yeah, totally.

[98] But the reality of being a hypercontract or OCD is, as Jack taught me, is very, very different.

[99] Totally, 100%.

[100] What is the reality?

[101] So I think, so that I've got, I have really bad anxiety, like, anyway, but which I never really, it never reached a tipping point until after, like, getting famous.

[102] I'd never had a panic attack until after I was famous, or after I was a musician, or after this was like, after it got to, like, a height.

[103] But the hypochondria, I guess like looking back now, I'm like, oh, I was like such an anxious kid.

[104] But then, because now I understand it a lot more and I've got to therapy and I speak about it with people and I'm trying to learn a bit more about it.

[105] I kind of look back at things I did and realised that the behaviour was the result of anxiety.

[106] But that hypochondria thing was probably where it was started and it was like, I would be like, I'd be walking around school like moping and fucking like, sort of like blinkered view and everything and I was just like couldn't concentrate on work I was doing because I was so convinced that I was going to die and that I had this fucking horrible disease and that yeah that I was going to be over and I was going to have to go to hospital I was going to pass out or have a seizure I've never done none of the that has ever happened to me I've touched wood never been in hospital for anything serious I've never broken a bone I've never had any major I never had a surgery.

[107] I never had any major illnesses or anything like that.

[108] At school, when I was in primary school, I never missed a day off.

[109] I never had a day off.

[110] I was always never had, I was never ill. Secondary school, I was off ill once.

[111] Like, so it wasn't like, it wasn't like I had cause for any of this.

[112] It was just like, in my head, just thinking.

[113] And I think maybe that's a thing as well of like, I don't know if that maybe never actually being ill. I didn't know what being really.

[114] ill felt like so my mind would maybe conjure something up in that respect but um but yeah no at the school it just became sometimes it could become like just really like again at the time I didn't understand it and the symptoms of that anxiety like being dizzy and fucking I used to kind of always go like I used to think big deep breath like all the time and and I used to make this noise which I still make when I go like hmm hmm hmm um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um and it's like so basically now looking back I realised that's all anxiety and I actually got diagnosed with Tourette's like two months ago or something that really yeah yeah which was to me made when they said that I was like oh that kind of makes fucking sense because I always thought Tourette's like fucking swearing than that I'd never realised it could just be like ticks bodily thingies but so I kind of yeah as I say like looking back I now realised it was all anxiety but if I thought I had the brain tumour and I was like and I was like worrying about it so much and getting anxious that I was dizzy that would then feed back into the oh I've got a brain chamber because I'm dizzy all the time why else would that be dizzy do I mean?

[115] I even got so bad a couple of years ago that I paid I went and paid for an MRI scan cancelled I was met up at Austin City Limits Festival in Austin and I just had to cancel for the trip because my anxiety about I think there's something serious for wrong on me had got so bad that I was like can't get on a plane and go to Austin and be away from home.

[116] I need to go get an MRI scan or I need to fucking really see what it's something about.

[117] So I went and got it and obviously there was nothing in my head.

[118] That was fine.

[119] And no one can talk you out of those.

[120] When you're in that moment call your mum, you call your friends, you tell people, no one can talk you out of it.

[121] I can do it now because I've like done therapies and I've kind of been able to sort of understand my own anxiety and stuff a bit more like that has made it easier for me to kind of a situation, at least kind of holes that I can dig myself in my head.

[122] My mum's also very good at it.

[123] My dad's absolutely useless because he's fucking like, he's anxious himself.

[124] He's right loose.

[125] He's just like fucking, he's mental.

[126] But, um, so my mum, yeah, she's really good at, like, if I'm having, if I'm having a panic attack, my mum has to, like, there's nobody else that can, like, talk me out with my mum.

[127] For sure.

[128] Definitely.

[129] Like, by the way, my mum has to sleep in my bed as recently as like a month ago because of how bad my anxiety got at one point.

[130] But I think that was alcohol related.

[131] I had been on a bit of a bend on the couple days before but like it gets to a point where I'm like I can't, I just can't fucking I can't envision like I can't like I can't imagine it not being something like life -threatening or like super serious because of how fucking like sometimes like things don't feel real someone will say something to me and I won't understand what they're saying like it's fuck it it gets like proper proper intense but yeah that's kind of the hypochondria as I've got older is lessened it's only when I start to have a panic attack or like I start to get really anxious that I'll go right I think so I'm dizzy that's probably anxiety you're fine and I just be a voice in the bag of my head that goes but what if it isn't what if it's something with the wrong way what if you're about to pass out and then in some situations I just I get my head tells me like oh you're about to have a panic attack you're going to have like and that is enough like that's enough hypochondria like you're as it's mad so it is it's still something like ongoing that I deal with but it's definitely getting better I've started taking like a medication for it seeing a therapist more regularly again the Tourette's thing was like a good sort of and it was kind of nice to hear because I started doing this bad twitch on my shoulder it's actually okay today but that became so like bad that I was like this has to be fucking something serious like more neuron disease gouglin and that shit and like again just the wheels starting turning on all rest of it so that finding out the Tourette's thing was like a nice sort of like Like, oh, that's, okay, that's cool.

[132] Because I don't mind, like, I don't, I never really think that, like, have, like, a mental illness of any sort.

[133] I just think sometimes I get really anxious and it's fine.

[134] Do you know what I mean?

[135] It's like, it's just one of those things.

[136] But I don't see it as, like, this big thing.

[137] I'm quite, like, I'll talk to anybody about it.

[138] If I'm having a panic attack in room, I'll be like, I'm having a panic attack, by the way.

[139] So just do with that information what you will.

[140] And you said that on stage before.

[141] Yeah, yeah, I've done it on stage.

[142] I had a couple of panic attacks on stage.

[143] we played and we did an arena tour in March 2020 like right up and like just before COVID kicked off and I don't know it was like obviously it was like basically it was kind of the culmination of this album campaign that we had done for the last record and things were great and it was like we played Australia and done some amazing shows on Australia in January Europe in February and then March was coming back like kind of nice sort of fucking victory lap look what we've done this is great arenas can't believe we're doing this in the first album amazing it was the worst two weeks of my life that was fucking shit I hated every minute of it like if you look at videos of me on stage I'm doing this Twitch that was so bad that it was just like it was I couldn't speak between songs I couldn't I had to stop songs and start over again I saw lots of tweets being like one tweet in particular it was like oh Lewis was on was fully on cocaine, like, fucking, like, twitching, fucking, all this shit.

[144] And then obviously I'm like, oh, no, people think I'm on cocaine.

[145] That feeds out of my thing, do it.

[146] I mean, I don't, and it was fucking, it was, but it was fucking horrible.

[147] And I think I played, the first two shows were in Glasgow.

[148] They were, like, the first two arena gigs were in Glasgow.

[149] I remember walking out, and, hey, the, it's like a kind of big coliseum thing of the hydro in Glasgow.

[150] And it's like, I remember walking out into the middle of the arena, an empty arena with my mom and my dad and my sister.

[151] And looking around in me, like, oh, fuck.

[152] this is like it was just I think things had got to a point where they were bigger than like I was seeing how big it had gotten like you know what it was because the way it worked was my songs had gotten we were kind of always playing catch it with ourselves in terms of the size of venues we were doing so like when we could have done 2 ,000 cat rooms we were doing 1 ,000 cat rooms and then like so on and so forth so it became like it was kind of nice because I was like oh this is great like songs flying like the next song's done really well as well like we're playing these nice rooms the crowds are meant oh this is class and I think yeah the arena I was like the arena shows were like oh fuck this is real this is huge there's a difference between 2 ,000 because that's another thing I've got a bit of an issue with especially in the UK it's really hard to go from 2 ,000 capacity rooms to 16 ,000 capacity rooms.

[153] There's very rarely in between.

[154] I don't know if you can do like 10, you can do it like five in places, but it was just like fucking in this is like a big jump.

[155] And then that thing of like disappointing people really came into it and then just like, I don't mind support.

[156] Being a support act I always love because if I'm shy, no one gives the fuck because it's like, who cares who is this guy?

[157] Like, do you know what I mean?

[158] We did, supported Sam Smith on tour and like they were really gracious and had us on.

[159] and uh but everyone's there to see sam no one's late to see me like do i mean so if i go out and have a shite gig it's like grant i'm fucking off this is great do you know what i mean so uh but when it's like people have bought a ticket to see you it's not a festival where there's loads of people on you're late to see you it just became quite it was quite intense how old were you then when you walked out with your family into that gig and you looked up at the stadium 23 or 23 years old um it was my yeah it was intense i think it's because as well like I just maybe I think in my head I was like oh you can't I've got really bad and everybody I speak to who's done well this imposter syndrome thing where it's like I don't deserve to be doing this what the fuck it like why am I fucking up here doing this I feel like a fucking absolute like I don't know just like a fucking I shouldn't be in this position and I've always had it and it's like we do the self deprecating part of like on fucking interviews and stuff which I do love us like take the piss but like the imposter of stuff I had never been more insecure and unsure of myself than after I did really well.

[160] That's so interesting because I've heard that before.

[161] Yeah yeah like even now like going back to write new music after we've done these fucking shows it's like I thought I was going to go in and be like right I've had a couple of hits relax guys here we go this is going to be lovely easy peasy I was fucking second guess myself all the time I was like I would start writing a song and then immediately no that's shite like just constantly like self sort of like like just that's shite that's shite that's shite that's shite like looking at what we did before obviously COVID happened you have all this time to kind of like look back on everything you didn't you go oh for fuck's like that was kind of got away for us a bit there the song one of the songs went number one America and I was like there's no way I can do that again.

[162] That just seems like such a such a fucking um such a fucking climb and something that I'm just not capable of.

[163] I don't.

[164] It feels like someone else did it.

[165] Do you know what I mean?

[166] And now I'm like up.

[167] Now I'm comparing yourself to that person.

[168] Yeah yeah I'm like lumped.

[169] It's like we were saying before like that thing of like even now coming on to do interviews and stuff it's like fuck I don't know if I can do any of this shit anymore because it's been just been fucking age.

[170] It's been like three years Do you know who sat here before you was, was Bear Grills?

[171] And Bear Grills said to me, he said, the more successful I've become, the lower my confidence has become.

[172] Because Bear Grills now is he's, when you, like, if your mate eats something crazy or does something crazy, you go, who do you think you are, Bear Grills?

[173] He's actually become synonymous with the word.

[174] So his identity is this like extreme, you know, whatever.

[175] And he's now looking up at his own identity going, how that hell am I ever going to be Bear Grills?

[176] And it was crazy to hear him say.

[177] like his confidence is at like pretty much an all -time low because of his success because he's competing with his own accomplishments which is not an easy place to be 100%.

[178] And I have to agree with that.

[179] I feel like as well, it's such a weird position to be in because you walk into a room like and it's people like this sounds wanky as fuck but like I have to assume in some regard that people around my age have at least heard about me in passing and I always just assume when I go in a room I just assume people in that room don't like me like that's just my that's my like default position of like I don't know why I don't know why it is but I just like it's just something I always have and I always like if I go to a pub and like I'll walk in a pub like I'm like oh fuck people probably like walking up to the bar or like if someone comes up and says hello and I'm speaking to them and I take a picture with her I think oh everyone else in this public likes I'm a wanker I don't know It's like, I don't know if it's like...

[180] When did that start?

[181] Maybe like, towards the end of 2019, probably.

[182] And don't get wrong, like, I've fucking...

[183] Being famous is fun, and it's great.

[184] Like, do you know what I mean?

[185] But why do you think they're not going to like you?

[186] I don't know.

[187] It's just like, I don't know what...

[188] I just assume that they've probably seen something online, like a video I've done or an interview I've done or they've heard the songs and they think, oh, it's music's shy.

[189] Oh, they've seen an interview and they think, oh, I fucking hate that kind of can't stand them.

[190] Yeah, I don't know.

[191] I just always assume that people have got this, I don't know, this view of me that they don't like.

[192] I don't know, again, I couldn't really put my finger on it.

[193] Like, I don't, I don't hate myself.

[194] Like, I think I'm all right.

[195] Like, do you know what I mean?

[196] But I think, um, it's just, uh, I don't know.

[197] I don't know if it's maybe that thing of like being like in pub and that public eye.

[198] Like you're so fucking exposed to like all this shit.

[199] And it's like, Yeah, it's just a bit, it's a bit of a, I don't know, it's a bit of a, it's a bit of a, you walk into a room and you feel like, oh fuck, this is like.

[200] Do you feel like it?

[201] Because I'm on, because I've started doing Dragons Den now.

[202] So the podcast was like, you know, big people knew it before, but there's this whole new demographic now, this BBC One demographic, where if I'm in the airport, I'm, if someone just glances at me, I assume, are they're going to come over and say something or whatever.

[203] So you kind of live with this constant paranoia.

[204] Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're kind of like, if I just keep my headphones on and I don't, I look at the fucking floor.

[205] Do you, do you get...

[206] A hundred but, mate, 100%.

[207] And it's like that sort of like, yeah, that part of it is like squeezed down.

[208] And I don't get wrong, I love when people come up and I love taking pictures of people and I love speaking to people and hearing people's stories about how they love the music or like even...

[209] I get a lot of people who go, oh, I think your music's shite, but I hate the funny and that stuff and I'll accept that as well.

[210] That's fine, cool.

[211] But...

[212] Is it cool?

[213] Yeah, I think it's fine.

[214] You can't...

[215] My music's not going to be for everybody.

[216] I'm really aware of that.

[217] My personality is definitely not going to be for them to pull out of that.

[218] I think the fact that people come up, I like the fact that people feel that they can say that to me and I wouldn't take offence.

[219] You've kind of invited that though, haven't you?

[220] Yeah, yeah.

[221] Because that's how I am.

[222] Like, you would really, really have to say something horrible, but I don't know what you could say to me that I would take offence that.

[223] I'm very like, I don't know if it's my upbringing in Scotland or just being Scottish or whatever.

[224] Like, I don't take offence to things.

[225] really like I've seen some fucking pretty ridiculous things writing about me online and on Twitter or the rest of it that really does not like you say you're very self -deprecating yeah of course why I just think it's funny I think I think but again I think that's a very Scottish thing and that's a very like we kind of all well when I grew up everyone just took the piss at each other it's quite I don't know it's quite a bad thing not a bad thing it's gone.

[226] You never want to get ideas above your station.

[227] Like you never, even when I was starting out of music, I just always, I never thought we'd get to this point or that things we get to this big because I just always thought, oh, we just, that just doesn't...

[228] It's maybe a bad thing as well because it maybe stops a lot of people from going to achieve things or trying to reach for stuff.

[229] Like I've said before, like, if I hadn't met my manager on my label and stuff, I would still be in pubs just playing tunes at the weekend and all the rest of it.

[230] It's not like, or I'd be playing weddings and stuff like that, because I would just not assume that this was on the cards.

[231] But I think, yeah, I think there's something nice in...

[232] Don't get me wrong, around my friends, I'm slagging them off, like, nothing else.

[233] And they're doing the same with me, and it's like a...

[234] You kind of figure out, like, what your flaws are by the way your friends...

[235] The stuff your friends pick out.

[236] And I don't get me wrong, like, on tour, we say some fucking horrific stuff to each other, and we take the piss out each other, and it's all fine because we love each other, it's grand.

[237] but like I think in general if I can it feels better to make people laugh like at me than other people like I would rather make someone laugh at me than grab somebody else and take the piss out of them before is there not harm in that in self -depriac like because I've heard some of the things you said you know you said I mean I know they're jokes but you said things like people women find me equally repulsive in Australia and wherever there's you take a shot at yourself and I do want it because if one of my good friends was always self -deprecating I would tell them to stop because I would be worried that those words might knock their own confidence or...

[238] It's the thing is like you don't talk like be nice to yourself like that's the thing of like I think if you're talking like if you had like a child would you want someone to say the things to your child that you say about yourself I get that completely and I understand that but I don't like self -deprecate constantly in my private life do you know what I mean?

[239] I don't like it's something that has become kind of synonymous with me doing interviews and all the rest of it and I do do it a lot in my private life but not like it's not like a constant every sentence like kind of how it is on interviews and things like that do you think it's kind of self -defense in a way from...

[240] It could be yeah I think as well yeah look my first album's called Divinely Uninspired to a hellish extent which is like kind of getting saying my album shite before.

[241] I can say my album shite.

[242] I think it's like, it's nice to take the power away for people because it's like, oh, I fucking say that first.

[243] So I mean, like, it's like, I think it's quite a, it is good, it is good, takes the power away from other people, I think, in that regard.

[244] So I do think there's probably something in that.

[245] But the way, the way I see it, I don't really feel like it's dragging me, like, for example, the stuff I say to myself in my head when I'm hungover, that is, like, damaging stuff.

[246] Like, that sort of thing of, like, when you're hung over and you're, like, kind of just that self -loathing and that sort of, like, that's the stuff that if I said to myself all the time, I'd be like, whoa, you need to fucking, like, chill out.

[247] If it's, like, jovial, and it's never stuff that, like, I can't change.

[248] Do you know what I mean?

[249] It's not, like, things, like, that I'm, like, if I'm told myself chubby, that's not like my, I can't, I can do something about that.

[250] I'm true.

[251] I'm like not, do you know what I mean?

[252] So it's something like, there is an aspect as well like you kind of people, you get to a point and doing interviews like especially radio stations and that we do just say the same thing over and over again.

[253] So it is, it's the same in that regard of like people say it a lot like you're very self -deprecating and it's like, well, yes, but these are, I'm going to ask the same questions everywhere I go.

[254] So I'm just kind of like rewarding a lot of this self -deprecating pattern and the rest of it.

[255] so yeah I mean I don't think second time around it's going to be quite a like I don't know how it's going to play at this what I'm saying about like turning it on again and all the rest of it like it's just that's it's going to be interesting to see like how things play out this time around because it's like yeah I'm not just going to come out and say the same stuff how do you how do you feel about the second time around give me the full range of emotions so this is your second kind of yeah releasing new music first time in like three years first time was just a smash mega ultra hit yeah some might call that that fucking crazy yeah it's wild it's wild so this time I'm shitting myself but this is the problem I think the nature of the music industry it's a big problem with I mean it's got so much better and I've had a lot of support from everyone around me no one forces me to do anything no one really we were able to this is like almost unheard of but like we were able to go away and make new music and bring it to the label and be like this is the new music that we're going to put out and they said great thank you we will now do our job with this so it's like a lot of people have like maybe an A &R who's quite oh no you've changed this change this and that we were given like the first album man's saying that I'm free reign to kind of go do what to do people have always checked up on us but I think in the music industry and then maybe any industry it's like you get a number one single and immediately it turns to ah yeah but can I do it again And then you do it again and then it's immediately like, ah, but how's the album doing?

[256] And it's like, how are the tickets doing?

[257] There's always something else.

[258] The goalposts always fucking changing.

[259] So it's this constant sort of like state of fuck, fuck, fuck, I need to like, right.

[260] It's like that thing I've like, I mean it's so spoken about to death, but like that thing I've not been able to sit back and enjoy it because you're always on the move to the next thing and on the move to the next thing.

[261] And I think that's why during lockdown I really struggled as well because it was like oh the next thing and there is no next thing now because we're all on COVID and all this shit and it's like what do you do now and then you just have all this paint up fucking how was that exactly it was intense for sure because do you know what when we first got announced well when COVID first got announced as if it's a fucking album coming this summer but I think when COVID first got like kind of when the lockdowns first were announced we were all fucking thingy that was a bit like I was made to go on tour to an America to support Nile Horn.

[262] But having had just had the fucking horrible experience that I had over the two weeks, I was in a position where I was, I don't know if I can perform live anymore without having a panic attack.

[263] It was that bad.

[264] Every single night I had a panic attack, I was twitching, it was fucking horrible.

[265] People who I knew would be watching the gigs and they would come back after and be like, we didn't enjoy watching that gig.

[266] That was really fucking hard for us to see you in that position.

[267] Did you ever in those moments question what you were doing?

[268] Yeah, for sure.

[269] But I questioned what I was doing.

[270] a lot in lockdown as well like on state it kind of started it's like fuck if this is making me feel this bad and it was fucking so heartbreaking as well because sorry I keep putting this mic but I was so heartbroken about it because playing live is the best bit of music like I fucking hate recording albums.

[271] It's stressful it's a pain in the ass promo I kind of get into a point when I quite like it and it's kind of like fun but it's not like why I'll get into it I fucking despise doing music videos I hate doing photo shoots I hate getting my photo taken I only do all that stuff the only reason I started writing songs was because I thought okay if I like people who I was watching like bands like Green Day or fucking I was like monkeys like oh they write their own songs so if I want to play live I have to write my own songs um the so like the only reason I do any of this other shit or put up me in this other shit is because the lap playing live is this fucking unparalleled thing that's this that you can't compare it to anything else takes you back to being forward that karaoke gig, right?

[272] Totally.

[273] 100 % and it's that same buzz every single fucking time.

[274] Like, do you know what I mean?

[275] I mean, unless you have a fucking shy gig then it's terrible.

[276] And then you're depressed for like three weeks.

[277] But yeah, that buzz is just unbelievable.

[278] So like when that was making me feel shy I was a bit like, well, this is fucking horrific.

[279] And I was like, I don't know how, if this has made me feel this bad, why continue to do it?

[280] And then at times making new music and stuff, I was like, when I would, get really down on myself, I'd be like, fuck, is this actually worth it?

[281] Not rest of it.

[282] I've never actually got to a point where I was like, oh, I'm going to quit or like, I don't think it was ever something that was seriously in my mind because I've literally never done anything else and I would be fucking useless at anything else.

[283] I'm a lazy cunt, like serious.

[284] And I know that sounds like I'm being self -deprecating.

[285] I am just aware of that as a genuine flaw that I'm trying to take the steps to correct.

[286] Honestly, it is so fucking, I'm so bad.

[287] for just like she like just sitting on TikTok and fucking scrolling through and that and I think as well getting to the position I got in with the first album I was like now I can like really fucking be lazy like now I can turn this shit fucking right up it was wild so like at points I was just like fuck did I just do this and that but I think for the most part I was never seriously considering like stopping like completely but it was definitely something that and my mom and dad had raised it to me my own family and friends is like if this is making you feel that bad especially when my Tourette's thing was really bad and we never knew what it was my dad gave me I left home from the airport one night after I'd been in London for a week and I was twitching like fuck to the point where he started crying in the car because he was like this is like again we never knew it was Tourette's at this point he was like this is fucking like so like he thought I was having like a seizure next time in the car and the rest of it was mad so like they were obviously concerned and they're like why just stop don't do this if it's making you feel this shit you never had any of this anxiety before this all took off but then again when I went to therapy I was like oh I actually did but this kind of just tipped it over the edge maybe when it became like panic attacks and stuff like that the live thing was really was really a big thing we went and played the Grand Prix in Abu Dhabi in December of last year just like I said and I was really worried about that and then we came we went on stage and I never had any of those issues like I didn't twitch I didn't have panic attack whatever and I came off and I was in the toilet and I was like I could have fucking burst at the tail because I was like oh thank fuck I can actually do this still and not be fucking twitching and not be fucking terrified and not all this shit so that was like a big thing but yeah over lockdown and stuff I definitely thought initially when it happened it was such a relief because I was like oh fuck I don't have to go away and do this tour when Ile and then go and do festivals because it was like it kind of gave me a moment to you kind of address it and now saying that obviously no COVID did and all the stuff that happened and people lost jobs and all the rest of it that feels like a selfish thing to say but at the same time it's like I don't know how long how much longer I could have kept up having a panic attack every single fucking night on stage and just like because it was it was like fucking it was like I was suffering for sure and yeah it just wasn't it wasn't fun but again it was like I would come off stage and I'd be absolutely and then I'd be like oh I'm not having this panic attack I got to a point when I was having panic attacks because I was anticipating having a panic attacks you know what I mean so when you get into that cycle I think you're in real trouble because it's like if you go looking for something you're going to fucking find it you know I mean you talk about how therapy helped that's really inspiring to hear because a lot of the time honestly when I sit here with people who are in that phase of their life or have been through that.

[288] They didn't seek out help until much, much later in life, until, you know, much, much later after their career.

[289] What valid, and it's also, I have to say, it's so important and nice to hear your honesty about that because I think we all, I think therapy is something that we should probably all consider if we have the means to do it because it's sometimes not like whack a mole of seeing a symptom, but a preventative measure as well.

[290] 100 % you can't wait until things are at that they're worse to do something about it it has to be something that you continue to fucking continue to work at like you know what I mean it's just I think people wait until it's like fucking like the worst rock bottom if you take the steps prior to rock bottom you might not have to reach that do you know what I mean how does it help to you and what has it taught you because you know I've had a few I've tried a few different therapists and that's the thing as well now it's like you kind of go to like different people when you kind of walk out I think a lot of people might go to a therapist and go that doesn't work for me but you have to kind of find the person yeah exactly exactly so you have to find the person who's right for you and I'm still like I've just started with a new one like I'm still like trying to find the right person but like I think it's just for me it was all about like understand like the first one I did was like CBT therapy for my anxiety and I was like it was just about understanding what anxiety is and why I'm having these and what, like, like, looking out for triggers and things like that, it was very much about, because at the start when it's not, when you're just having panic attacks, you're like, oh, what the fuck is going on?

[291] This is mental, like, why am I feeling this?

[292] And then every sort of feeling you get when you have a panic attack, spurs it on even more and it becomes this big, fucking massive thing.

[293] And I think when I went to CBT therapy and she was like, have you felt like this?

[294] Have you felt like this?

[295] If you feel like this?

[296] And I was like, oh, yeah, all that shit.

[297] And she's like, oh, that's anxiety.

[298] And then I remember, I used to, this passing out and seizure thing became a big thing as well when I was having panic attacks.

[299] And she was like, right, well, what happens if you have a seizure?

[300] And I goes, I don't know, I've probably got a hospital.

[301] And she goes, all right, so you're in hospital?

[302] What was the best place for you to be?

[303] If you were other seasons, she was like, I was like, oh, probably hospital.

[304] She was like, right, cool.

[305] So what happens if you pass out?

[306] I goes, oh, I'll probably wake up and, I don't know, I'll probably go to hospital.

[307] She was like, oh, no, it was the best place for you to be?

[308] So it's like, that's like fucking thing I'm just like really talking it out and then I never knew what catastrophizing was when it was like that sort of like snowball effect of Yeah, yeah, this thing happens then this thing happens So that was a big thing And yeah, so just that And then the second therapist when it was the person who mentioned the thing about My mum's mum And being exposed to like death that young And being around death that young And kind of just That being a thing with my hypochon Ray and all the rest of it.

[309] And I just think it's just, it's so funny like when they make you like speak out, like think, like so like me saying, Hussein, so what happens if you have a seizure?

[310] And I go, oh, I go to hospital.

[311] And she goes, well, where would the best place if you have it?

[312] Like, I mean, it's like.

[313] So simple.

[314] It's like so simple.

[315] But actually them making you say it, you go, oh, it makes so much fucking sense.

[316] And yeah, so it's been, it's been a big help.

[317] And again, it's like not something that I feel like, again it's not something I ever saw myself doing got to therapy and the rest of it but it definitely fucking makes me feel great like afterwards you just feel like a fucking weight's been lifted off your shoulders and I definitely like you say I would if you have the means to do it as something that I would recommend massively I think it has helped me it continues to help me it's that thing of like it's like anything it's like you go to the gym well I don't but you go to the gym to stay fit like for me like going to therapies like can I go at the gym to kind of like help my mind just fucking work through things and and having the awareness to know that you're you are living in extraordinarily unhuman life and I say unhuman because we're not meant to have feedback at that scale we're not to go meant to go into arenas I mean if we're probably from our hard wiring we're probably meant to being groups of 10 yeah totally people we know and love you know small small communities not going to arenas with tens of thousands of people absolutely man that's right and I I think that's the thing as well.

[318] It's like understanding that you, this experience that you've been through is, as, as a, not the word traumatic is a fucking big word, but it is, it's a fucking, it's a massive switch.

[319] Like, I was fucking playing pubs at weekends, getting money and fucking, I was at college doing music because, and the only reason I did it was because I was lying on my bed one day and my dad says, what are you doing after the summer?

[320] And I goes, oh, I don't know yet, I was just going to play gigs.

[321] And he was like, oh, you fuck, fucking work out something.

[322] So I phone my friend Adam and was like, what course are you doing?

[323] I'm doing this music course.

[324] When done that?

[325] So I was just fucking like pottering around.

[326] And then this shit just kicked off.

[327] What was your hope for life then?

[328] If we go back, because we did get past that part.

[329] What was your, what was you, if I had asked you at 16 years old, what do you want to be when you're older, what would the answer have been?

[330] I've always just wanted to make enough money doing music so that I didn't have to get a real job.

[331] But anything, like, if I made like, I don't know, fucking 500 pound a month I would have been fucking buzzing.

[332] Like I would have been so happy with that.

[333] But the first day I met my manager, he said to me, what would be your fucking, like, ideal fucking situation?

[334] And there was this artist called Lewis Watson at the time who was like playing, who at the time was playing like King Tats size venues in Glasgow.

[335] So that's like, 350 people.

[336] And I was a huge fan of his.

[337] And I was like, oh, well, I get, like, Lewis Watson and be like my goal.

[338] Like, that's kind of, that kind of, that kind of, that kind of, that kind of, size venues up and doing the UK would be my absolute girl and my manager was like I think you could be doing arenas this is the first day I met him I think you could be doing arenas and I was like shut the fuck up like Tompish whatever and then fucking cut two three years later playing arenas it's like it's just madness so it's like yeah I just wanted to be making enough money playing music that it wasn't that I didn't have to get for want of a bit of a real job because this is like and this is the thing as well with this with music as well this is one of the easiest jobs in the world this is a really easy job the actual job part of it that's the it's the being it's the famous side of things that's like that causes the anxiety and stuff like the actual jobs are fucking breathe and one of my friends one of my best pals is a grave digger like you know what I mean that's a fucking hard job this is a piece of piss like this is great but it's that it's the kind of the pressure you put on yourself the fame and stuff like that's like a and I fucking hate being on being like oh fame man it's really tough but because again it's fucking class and loads of respect but yeah so I think it's for me it was never I never thought we would get to this point like I never even when I got signed I didn't think it was going to last and I've always been told like getting signed means nothing really because it does kind of I mean it's a nice little tick but it doesn't mean anything more people get dropped than then fucking do fucking become success stories.

[339] So it's always been like stuff that I've I've always just been glass half empty and being like, that this probably hasn't really work out.

[340] But I'm going to fucking try and really give it a go but it probably won't work out so don't get.

[341] I don't like to get too fucking aspirational.

[342] And I wouldn't say I'm necessarily an ambitious person.

[343] I do think there's people around me who are ambitious and who we have the same lofty dreams and they maybe see something in me that again this is something that I cannot be more thankful for for like labels and agents and PRs and my manager and my family and friends and stuff they've obviously saw something and thought for some reason that we could get to a point but personally I just feel like I'm just happy to play music and specifically play live so if this just can continue to that I can do that I kind of like big crowd now so it'd be nice if they could stay big for at least two years or whatever but if I can play live music yeah I'll show up and play someone you loved it any old shite for the next 20 years do I mean I don't give a fuck I'll I'll do that man because it's a buzz but um but yeah I don't know I just think I've always been that oh this probably wouldn't this is probably the end of the road to you this is probably as big as good to get and it's just like even when we start doing well in terms of like selling tickets for gigs and stuff I never ever saw myself as someone who was going to have a top 40 single.

[344] So this is after selling out tours on this day, I just thought, oh, we could maybe squeeze a top 10 album.

[345] That was like my big thing outside.

[346] If you get a talk to an album, I'll be fucking happy.

[347] And then it just fucking took it on a life of its own.

[348] One of the things that I was really inspired by and which we kind of skipped over again is this how many years of like practice and repetition you put in before you got discovered like playing in pubs at like 11 years old and sneaking in and hiding in the toilets how important in hindsight was that practice like invaluable like it's so fucking like like I wouldn't be doing this if I hadn't been for that but that's the thing it's like the love of doing it wasn't like it didn't feel like to me like a chore or like a fucking and because I wasn't aiming for anything it felt like oh this is the buzz this is the goal like we're there Yeah, we've done it.

[349] Me, when I got on stage when I was living in hiding toilets when I got on stage I was like fuck I've made it, this is good like, do I mean, the fact that I didn't get kicked out the pub that time that was fucking grand that was what I was after.

[350] But I, so to me that was fucking that was the goal, just play gigs.

[351] That's because most of my memories are like going out and getting hammered and underage drinking which obviously shouldn't do or whatever but it's like is that are all related to me we put gigs on and we, we, we, we, we, we, we went and hired pubs that we knew served people who were, like, 16 and all.

[352] Like, we did, that was, it's so, my life has been so ingrained in, like, doing, like, music, but it never, ever felt like, even now, it doesn't feel like I'm working hard.

[353] Nothing feels like I'm working hard.

[354] Like, it's getting to, like, the number one record at the time didn't feel like I was doing much.

[355] I just felt like I was, because I had fucking loved doing it.

[356] I didn't feel like I was working really, really hard.

[357] Again, I think it might be something to do with the fact that my brothers are like electricians and my dad's a fishmonger and I know what I can see like a proper day's graft compared to fanning about a day and niddling the guitar and the rest of it.

[358] But like, I just never saw it as like, oh, I'm really in the pits here and I'm fucking like I just didn't feel like I was working hard and that goes back to like being in those pubs and being in those like shite bars when you when I was listening to.

[359] or playing in a restaurant even when I was thinking fuck if I was eating my dinner I wouldn't know to hear me fucking singing like that shit was like and I think that's a lot to do with like you have to develop a thick skin playing in a pub because someone will shout you'll fucking shout at you non -stop when you're 11 well but when I started out in puberty and the cute factor went away it was like things got dicey for a bit for sure things were an issue but yeah I think that and that's what anytime I say I meet people like young guys or girls or fucking whoever that wants to be a musician and it's like what did you do or whatever it's just play gigs just immediately go out and play a gig don't focus on a lot of people are like oh I'm going to look this way and I'm going to fucking I'm going to fucking this is how we're going to perform on stage and it's just like just go do it just go play gigs don't want to release you don't have to release music I never released a song I never did like an official release like any like like fucking the first song I ever released was Bruises which was on my album that's the first song I ever put out like when I'm recorded like I went in a record studio and did some demos before but that was the first song I've been probably recorded because I'd been writing songs fucking at that point I would have been 20 when that came out so 10 years I'd been writing songs for 12 because I started writing songs for 9 so 12 years I've been writing songs for I got to a point where I was just like but it was never in my head about releasing music because I was like, oh, I just wanted to play life.

[360] Like, it was just this thing that I just kept doing in tandem with playing live.

[361] So for me, it's just like, that's whatever I say, people, just go do it and just go fucking get the experience.

[362] I remember going to college when we were 18 and my, like, all these people who were really talented musicians and singers and fucking, like, they had never, but they'd never played their live gig.

[363] And I was so surprised by it because they were fucking much, much more like technically gifted and all the rest of it and better singers and all that shit than me but the fact that we were we had played live so much me and my friend Adam who was a top of it and Paige who was my girlfriend my ex -girlfriend who is Love Island winner 2020 but she she was the same she'd done loads of gigs Adam had done loads of gigs Adam had done loads of gigs like we all drove to thing together and it was like that sort of experience and gigging that we all had became like it was just so it was so apparently that sort of like kind of disparity and not again these people were much better musicians and like singers and everything than I was but like when you got on stage it was like there was a marked difference I think just because it was like you had that comfortability of being up there and doing it and like I think my voice is I sound the way I sound because they're playing in pubs like that sort of like loud fucking because I had to fucking and sitting above the noise of people talking pish and like drinking or rest of it and like I think yeah it's it's if I hadn't done that looking back now I'm like oh that's that was the that was the kind of game changer like this is not an easy question for someone that's self -deprecating but when you look back in hindsight as you said there and you go do you know because we all do it we go what was the reason why I was because you've been wildly wildly fucking successful I mean I probably don't have the right words to describe just how big your records got and I'm a huge fan of yours you have a music chat and I really am like, you know, in the same way I'm a big fan of Adele I'm a big fan of Ed Shearing your records reach that level in hindsight so you say okay, doing those pub gigs and the repetitions there but what else?

[364] I think no self -deprecation because I'm a fucking although I do think that was a big thing in it like for sure.

[365] I think I remember when I first started using like social media to do for music it was the 975 were kind of the main band and everyone was like you have to be mysterious and you have to be sort of like they were doing like the big gaps between the letters and all the rest of it and it was very like black and white really cool and I remember if you look I mean it's all probably archived now but if you look way back at the stuff my things I'm like trying to do that and then after that kind of faded out but that was everybody everybody was going into like meetings and it was like like, oh, you had to be kind of mysterious, cool, like black and white, like, did or whatever.

[366] And then we then went on to just, I was just kind of using it to be like, oh, I'm doing this today.

[367] Because I had actually stopped using all social media when I was 16.

[368] I didn't have Instagram, I didn't have Facebook, I didn't have any of that shit because I was just like, I thought I was being cool and edgy by being off -grid or whatever, but I was actually just a cun.

[369] But then I just started using it like, oh, playing fucking dot -to -dot festival in Bristol today or whatever.

[370] And then it wasn't until like I think I thought that we had reached our peak in terms of like music and the rest of it like the first EP I released did really well and then the releases in between a song called Rush but these are songs I still love a song called Rush and a song called Tough we thought was like the single we thought this is the one that's going to fucking if anyone was going to like blow up that's that one it did fuck all it did absolutely fuck all and I think think at that point we were like okay this is kind of Reese's peak we haven't reached the heights of bruises because bruises kind of blew up online um Hermries right hates of bruises and that's going to be a song and whatever blah blah blah so then I just like didn't give a fuck on Instagram and I was just like just doing stuff that I thought me and me my pals would laugh at and fucking just talking absolute fucking shite and just genuinely like being myself on Instagram really which was taking the piss out of things and taking the piss out of being famous I remember that the first one I remember was coming back from an American tour we had played like places in the kind of nice shows in America and there was this big spread in the in like the sun or some other shiny newspaper or whatever I don't know but like some other newspaper this big spread and it said like Lewis Capaldi no hiding place now and when I had been in that on the American tour this girl in Philadelphia had given me these stupid fucking glasses these stupid fucking daft cat eye glasses and I had the moment and I was like I don't know if it was jet lag or just being an exhaustive thing but I started film myself and being like yeah I'm fucking so famous now by the way it's unbelievable that's me no hiding place now please fucking stop just talking piss that's put the glasses on I was like this is me now fucking like it or lump it or fuck you like all that I stay right just again just inane shite not thinking about it like taking the piss and then people just really reacted to it again it wasn't something that I was then like in no one was like, oh we have to, this is the thing now, we just kind of left it and just kept the more and more I just got comfortable just talking to her fucking phone and taking the piss and realizing you know what social media is actually a piss take like just don't use it around in serious just have a laugh I think that was like the big thing on that when it was like, oh can I found my feet and I found my voice and I just started to take the piss out of things and just realising oh you can actually just you can fully just put a picture of you wear towel wrapped around your head and these stupid glasses on your top of you can put that on a big massive poster on the chip.

[371] Scottish Gonson.

[372] Yeah, like all that shit.

[373] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[374] It's like, why not do that?

[375] Like, you don't have to look good or cool on it or whatever.

[376] You just do a fucking stupid thing.

[377] I think we did the whole Christmas thingy where it was just a close -up picture in my face last and it just says Merry Christmas from Lus Capaldi.

[378] There was no, we weren't, we weren't promoting anything and then that was all on the tube.

[379] No label would ever tell you that is the strategy to become successful.

[380] And yet, for many people, that will actually be, well, for some people, that'll be how they discovered you.

[381] I remember that video of you doing your only, you found out your net worth.

[382] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, $200, yeah, yeah, fuck me, man. No, 10 million, it was a thing that happened to us.

[383] Yeah, yeah, yeah, I said you had 10 million and you're in your, like, mom's bedroom, whatever, and you're like, I got fucking New York.

[384] Oh, man, I was skim, yeah, yeah.

[385] And I was just, like, take the piss in it.

[386] No one would ever tell you to do that, as a marketing strategy.

[387] But that, but this is a thing that now, that someone was like, we started to see other, mostly male artists, doing it.

[388] And like, doing, like, very close things to it and not to be like, oh, you fucking called me because it's like, it's people taking a piss and trying to do your thing, try it whatever you can.

[389] I get it out of hard it's fucking lends to it.

[390] And I remember seeing a tweet, somebody saying, a few years ago, labels were telling people to be like the 1975 and now you go in meetings, people are telling people will be able to lose capacity.

[391] I can't remember who did it, but I could probably find it.

[392] But, like, I remember, reading that and being like, is it?

[393] Like, because obviously I'm just doing whatever and I'm like, is that a thing?

[394] And then, like, I just started seeing it for more and more people.

[395] And then I was like, oh, this is fucking great.

[396] Like, cool.

[397] We're all just being ourselves.

[398] This is great.

[399] But you see some people doing it and that's not their personality and you can kind of see it.

[400] It's fake.

[401] You can't fake it either.

[402] Exactly.

[403] And I think that's the thing.

[404] And I don't know.

[405] And now I'm not really sure what it would be.

[406] But then like someone like, like you look at it now and it's like people who are themselves.

[407] Like Dojikat and Lizzo are two people who just are themselves and people love them for it.

[408] There's a name I'm forgetting.

[409] Young...

[410] Youngblood.

[411] No, an artist in America who did that song about riding a horse.

[412] Oh, alone has.

[413] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[414] And exactly, that's a thing.

[415] And now, obviously, he's doing so much for the LGBT2 plus representation, especially in, like, hip -pop and all the rest of it.

[416] It's amazing.

[417] And I think, yeah, people who are...

[418] That's the thing.

[419] you're seeing people who are themselves.

[420] It's less about being like a polished fucking pop star, People, because I think people now see through that shit.

[421] Like, people see, like...

[422] Well, you're way more relatable than some perfect...

[423] Totally.

[424] Like some, like a David Becker model with, like, six -pack habs who is faultless and just is PR -trained.

[425] Totally, yeah, yeah.

[426] I can't relate to that.

[427] Yeah, of course.

[428] But then what's funny then is it becomes, is such a part like it becomes a point out of that tons and people start going oh well that's just I remember being a story and like this I think one of those people's got in touch saying oh there's this story that Lewis has a comedy writer is that true or took comedy lessons and I'm like if I took comedy lessons I'm going to be coming up better shit than fuck I'm fat and I'm like fattening that do I mean I think I'd be able to fucking I'd have better fucking material but I'm not bad idea exactly Yeah, exactly.

[429] Get me somebody on the phone.

[430] Get me James A. Castor on the phone and something like.

[431] But like, um, nah, it was like, so then that becomes like that, then turns and it's like, people are like, oh, he's fucking, he's trying too hard now.

[432] And you're like, I'm just doing the fucking same thing I was last, like, do you know what I mean, for the last 10 years?

[433] But, um, but I think that, that, yeah, people, people do, like when you, again, when you can see someone's not being themselves, like, when we were doing that and there was other people doing the same shit as us, it was like, that's not, I can see that's not you.

[434] but that was like not the name that's probably a label that's been like this is working for that, can't do this like, do you know what I mean?

[435] There's a juxtaposition with you though because because of the music you make I'll be honest, so I heard your music first loved your music, all that stuff then I'm on Twitter one day and I see this guy talking about his net worth and sitting in his like mum's bedroom being like where the fuck is this money?

[436] I don't tell the tax man and I'm thinking that's the guy I heard because this guy is a comedian and he's not serious at all and then this guy in the music is deep, profound, and serious and emotional.

[437] Yeah.

[438] It felt like two different people.

[439] So that's actually what, for me, made it even more, like, shocking, but cool.

[440] Yeah, totally.

[441] And surprising.

[442] I think a lot of people had that.

[443] I never noticed that as, like, a thing.

[444] Like, I never, like, saw that as a thing until people start to point it out.

[445] It's like, do you know, you're not, like, your songs taught?

[446] Because I never really thought about it.

[447] Do you know what I mean?

[448] Like, I'd always just fucking made you.

[449] and then was who I was.

[450] Do you know what I mean?

[451] But it's easier to write about sad things, I guess.

[452] Like, it's hard to write about, like...

[453] Has it always been easy to write about sad things?

[454] I remember reading about this moment when someone turned to you and said, how's your life going when you were like 18, 19?

[455] Yeah, yeah.

[456] That changed everything for you.

[457] Yeah, so up until then, I was writing songs and I'd learned how to, like, craft a song.

[458] But I wasn't, like, writing anything with any, like, fucking, like, meaning or, like, yeah.

[459] Like, it was all kind of making up stories or whatever or just, like, they weren't really about anything.

[460] And then you come in and you go into like co -writing sessions in London.

[461] I think I was, I might have been 17 on my first one.

[462] And you go in and someone goes, oh, this is, it's actually with a guy called Olly Green who I still see now and then on the list of he's a great writer, a great producer.

[463] And you go, like, so what's going on in your life, man?

[464] How are you doing?

[465] Like, what do you write about?

[466] And I'm like, what the fuck are you talk?

[467] Like, who are you?

[468] Like, I've just met you and you're asking me, like, how I'm doing and what's going on my life?

[469] Like, it was almost like, aggressive.

[470] way I was saying I was like standoff as like who the fuck are you?

[471] Like I just met my thinking that and then over time that becomes you realize that it's like the people want that like talk about that and it's like that's what makes great songs is like if you have these um yeah if you have these real stories behind them and these real emotions behind them and that's not to say you can't read a great song and it's just god was a good like fucking I remember years and years ago that by that um remember that Robbie William song Hey Oh here she goes you're going to do that great tune right but I mean in an interview being like oh it doesn't mean anything it's just like it's just all like cool and thinking it's a great song I fucking love that song but like it was like when it came to writing my songs I found that that was like oh this is the fucking this is the thing I've kind of been missing is like it's weird that it took writing with someone else to bring out more of myself in the tunes are you in touch with your emotions?

[472] I think so.

[473] I think so.

[474] Like I think it's really important to feel how you're feeling.

[475] So meaning like if I feel, wake up day and one day and I feel sad, I think it's important, like there's a reason I'm sad and I should sit with it and feel it rather than like I put it off or like not kind of explore it.

[476] I think it is quite important to like try your best to fucking just like Like, not, trying to put off being fucking sad just leads to like, for me, a big fucking hole where you're going to, like, really, really, you're going to just go off a cliff at one point.

[477] You can't keep putting off or, like, going out and boozing instead of fucking dealing with stuff or whatever.

[478] Same of being happy.

[479] If you're happy, fucking, great, feel it.

[480] I always fucking, like, get, like, really melancholic after.

[481] Especially, like, so I just did, like, my first show in years with my band over the same.

[482] the weekend on Denmark and then coming back home Sunday kind of Saturday afternoon Sunday and I was just in my empty flat and I was like fuck I feel like I feel like shit I feel really sad now because I've just had this amazing fucking like oh like the come down high and like the come down was just like thing but I thought it's important to like sit with that and enjoy it and kind of like not dissect it as such but just like kind of let it sort of take you obviously don't let it run away with you but just kind of like deal with it don't deny it yeah exactly don't be like, nah, I'm grand.

[483] I'm going to see, now if I'm anxious, I'll feel anxious and be like, okay, I'm feeling anxious, it's fine, I wonder why I'm feeling this.

[484] Could be this, could be this, could be this.

[485] I know a lot of people who journal and write down like, I'm feeling anxious because of this.

[486] What can I control?

[487] What can I know?

[488] All the rest of it.

[489] And I think, yeah, I try and sit with things.

[490] I do think since I've been famous or stuff that I'm like less maybe in touch with.

[491] Like, I've been, like, relationships, I feel like I've become quite a closed off person.

[492] Not in like, with my parents or anything else, but like if I'm starting a new relationship or trying to start a relationship, I can be quite...

[493] A romantic relationship.

[494] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I can be quite like, I don't know, shut off.

[495] Like a shield, is that?

[496] Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

[497] And I guess that's just a response to, you know, everything that's happened.

[498] But it's definitely like a...

[499] So do you mean, like, if you meet someone new, say it's romantic partner or if it's new people, you can kind of keep a wall up because you're...

[500] Yeah, and I feel like I can be...

[501] I can have...

[502] It's kind of like I feel like I can give...

[503] It's more friendship, but I can give people the impression that I'm like giving them everything.

[504] But really I know that I'm fucking defending.

[505] Defending.

[506] Defending certain things.

[507] Like what?

[508] I don't know.

[509] Just like my own sort of like...

[510] Maybe like insecurities about things, my own worries about things.

[511] Because you think if you share that, then...

[512] It's just quite a vulnerable position to be.

[513] And then it's like, you don't really know...

[514] You don't want to give that straight away?

[515] Yeah, yeah, totally.

[516] Because you don't know how they'll react to it.

[517] Totally, 100%.

[518] And it's like you don't really want to...

[519] I don't know, you just...

[520] Yeah, you're kind of careful about who you...

[521] share that with and who you spend your time with in general.

[522] But, like, it's easier sometimes you just not give that away to any other than...

[523] To give them the, like, the public image first than maybe over the time.

[524] Because that's the thing now is where everyone has a perception of who you are.

[525] And like, even if I'm on dating apps or whatever, It's kind of weirdly one -sided where I'm asking them a bunch of shit because it's like...

[526] They can Google.

[527] Yeah, they know loads of things and they've either seen an interview or fucking heard on the radio and it's like, this is one of the things I think I'm quite opening interviews and stuff like that but I do think there's still a lot of things that people don't know about me like there's certain questions I won't get asked.

[528] I've always wanted to ask someone this question and I'm not sure I've ever asked it but I sat one day with myself and I thought what's the question as someone that's always doing interviews who's always talking, what's the question someone should ask me?

[529] What's the best question they should ask me?

[530] Because I'd love to ask that question as someone else one day.

[531] And the best question I could come up with is Steve, if I was asking it to myself, Steve, what is the question that no one asks you that they should be asking you?

[532] That would reveal the most interesting, untapped answer.

[533] Now, I'm going to ask you that question.

[534] And then I'll answer it myself as well, which I've never done before.

[535] Okay.

[536] fuck I don't know what's the question that you think if you'd ask me that you fucking would have found out something that oh I don't know um maybe like things like what makes you happy like genuinely what makes you happy because I can think about loads of things that make me sad but I'm quite hard at like music became a like a hobby that became a job and now I like find in my life there's a lot of gaps in terms of like what I can do to like make myself like like other than fucking so I'm abstaining from alcohol at the minute I'm not like fucking thinking but like I've been off it for like three four weeks or whatever just because we're doing we're busy doing all this shit so I'd be and it's like other than like and again this is part of where I grew up other than like going out of the weekend and pissed it's like what do you do or like playing shows what do you do that actually makes you happy and I think a lot I kind of don't know do you know what I mean other than like my music and Liam said that to me yeah pardon Liam said that to me. Yeah, it's a very strange position to be in.

[537] And it's like, I don't know where I would start to like to try and find something like that, do you know what I mean?

[538] Is that in part because your success took your, your hobby, your passion, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[539] Yeah, exactly.

[540] It takes your passion to me because it kind of turns it into, it's monetised and it's, yeah, yeah, it's responsibility, it's fucking pressure, it's, it's, you know, band and crew who I've got kids and stuff that, that you feel kind of responsible for in a way.

[541] And then it's like, the pressure of fucking trying not to say the wrong thing, especially in fucking these times that we're in trying not to say the wrong thing all the time, fucking like try not to like you don't want to upset anybody so try not to upset anybody and also the pressure of fuck that first album did well what's this next album going to do like this sort of uncertainty I think a lot of people as well think just because the first albums did well the second arm's going to do great and it's just not the case you're only as good as you're not as you're next song, I think.

[542] One of the things that I think it's important for you to know is that is not a Lewis Capaldi thing.

[543] That is a human thing.

[544] I remember reading one day about a study, which I actually wrote about my book, where they got people to do a task, right, a game that they enjoyed doing.

[545] And they measured their success performance and all those kind of things, happiness.

[546] And then they got them to do the exact same task, but they paid them to do it.

[547] Okay.

[548] And their motivation and happiness dropped.

[549] And it's so paradoxical.

[550] You don't think, well, if you pay me to do something, thing that I love, my joy of doing it will drop.

[551] That makes absolutely no sense.

[552] But you're right.

[553] It shifts from being passion as the key incentive and motivator to money or responsibility.

[554] And it's even something I think about with this podcast because I started it because I love it.

[555] I love having these conversations and no one was fucking listening.

[556] Yeah, yeah, totally.

[557] Knowing all of this and about how motivation money, I just want to keep fighting for the bit that I love and doing it my way and not allowing you're good at this because I know you cancelled some shows when you just needed some time is just taking some fucking time when I need it and saying no. Totally.

[558] And I think that's the thing as well that we're saying about stopping before you are stopped.

[559] Do you know what I mean?

[560] It's like stopping when you have the it's you who's made it rather than oh you physically can't do this just now because you're in such a bad brain.

[561] But what was the question that you'd want to ask to tell about it.

[562] I thought I got to go back.

[563] You remembered.

[564] Come on.

[565] I don't think people ask me. So it would be around how I've dealt with the shift in my life from going from being like someone that knows the newspapers didn't write about to be in getting emails from the big newspaper saying is this story true about your past or your life?

[566] And like in those moments it's really fucked me. Like it's like so I've had just this like now the media seem to care about my life.

[567] And sometimes they say things.

[568] which aren't true.

[569] And I had thousands of employees, so they went back through all of my employees.

[570] And I remember this one article where they found like three of them, which was like 0 .01 % of my employees.

[571] And I'd never met these three people.

[572] And they, and those three people had a bad experience.

[573] They wrote a story about it.

[574] Not bad experience with me, but a bad experience with someone in my business.

[575] And that like crippled me for like many days.

[576] I was, I couldn't think about anything else.

[577] I was in like, and that is probably my, actually probably my first experience with something that I would call anxiety, just like feeling like nervous.

[578] for like days on end.

[579] Yeah, totally.

[580] And it's how you're control as well.

[581] Even with all my experience doing this podcast and speaking to hundreds of successful people about anxiety and all those things and how you deal with it, you would think I would be an expert.

[582] Yeah, totally.

[583] No, fucking.

[584] No, I'm not.

[585] And I still don't know.

[586] I still don't know how to.

[587] If I get into one of those moments, I never got into it before.

[588] It was only public attention that did it to me. Yeah, totally.

[589] I mean, business pressure never.

[590] It was public attention in like, I don't want to even.

[591] even say I'm famous, but quote -unquote, like, being in the public spotlight, I mean, we go, this is a new feeling.

[592] Because you can't control other people's perception or you.

[593] You can't control how you are perceived by the way the public.

[594] People make, like, there is, I remember I did the Brit Awards to just announce an award the whole week, like last year or something.

[595] I wasn't there to perform anything.

[596] I went on and I was like, oh, fucking, I can't remember what I said.

[597] I think I went, the crowd was like cheering or that.

[598] I went, shut up, shut up, shut up.

[599] Very, like, jovial, no one was offended.

[600] You go online and there's, like, comments, like, he's so disrespectful, because it was the NHS workers in the fucking audience.

[601] And they're like, everyone there was, like, howl or not rest it.

[602] But he's so, like, that's so disrespectful.

[603] My mum works for the NHS, by the way, right?

[604] I've said much more than shut up.

[605] But, yeah, it's that thing.

[606] It's that, I totally can empathise with that situation because it is just fucking, like, you got into doing this, you got into doing this because you love doing this and your business because you love doing your business on this, that you're not trained, and no one's trained to fucking...

[607] Humans aren't meant to have fucking millions of people.

[608] I'm going to come back to something you said earlier because we glazed past that and my brain has just gone, go back to that.

[609] Sure.

[610] You're on Tinder.

[611] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[612] You're on dating up.

[613] I've just been kicked off with Tinder because I think people think I'm...

[614] They've reporting you.

[615] Fake, yeah, yeah.

[616] So I've been kicked off at Bumble, Tinder, hinge.

[617] And Hinge is the one I really...

[618] Like, I love Tinder.

[619] right turns great but I just want really what I get them because I feel like that's now like mid -20s like that's what people are on I'm on I'm on I'm on a bunch I don't worry about that but then and then I got on this one someone they told me I got on this thing called field and I was oh cool like there's another fucking dating app whatever and I go on it and it's like so sexual it's all about like like kinks and fucking BDSM and I'm like this is way beyond like anything I'm like tuned in for But like, yeah, but kicked off hinge, bumble, tender, I used to.

[620] Because I'm thinking at the day, I'm still fucking 25.

[621] But that's the thing as well, I always struggle with.

[622] Like, I don't want to, like, there's always say, like, people talk about things like a power imbalance of, like, someone being famous or whatever.

[623] But I'm trying to, like, work that as well.

[624] That's, like, a new thing of, like, I don't want to, like, use my fame.

[625] Or I don't want that to have any influence over someone who I'm in a, I'm dating.

[626] But then at the same time, it's obviously a big part of, like.

[627] And it's unavoidable.

[628] Yeah, and it's like, I can't, what am I only supposed to date people who are also famous?

[629] Like, that's a really weird thing.

[630] So it is that thing of like, yeah, it is strange that I met at the being on Tinder is a bit weird.

[631] I'm not the last girl with Nintendo.

[632] She's fucking great.

[633] So this is brilliant.

[634] Like, do you know what I mean?

[635] This is after I've been famous.

[636] Is there part of you that hopes they don't give a fuck about it and don't know who you are?

[637] No, I think I'm like, because, again, it's that way of like 20, any girl from like 22 to 25.

[638] is probably going to know again that's like sounds wanky but just age range like fucking nowhere to hide yes do you know what I mean exactly you know what I hate I'm fucking famous um but I think I kind of I cannot want them to if they know there's nothing worse than a girl going oh I didn't even like realize like they're like I hate that when you can like tell that someone's talking about sometimes it's so fucking totally thinking but sometimes when people like just a or when people like, I don't know if you've had this since like this all blown up but like...

[639] I've got a girlfriend mate so I don't.

[640] No, no, no, totally.

[641] But like when people come up to you, anybody comes up to you and they love to let you know that they don't give a fuck who you are.

[642] It's like, I don't even know who you are.

[643] I don't give a fuck you are, whatever, blah, and you're like, all right, like, feelings mutual, like, what the fuck is this?

[644] Like, you don't have to come up and tell me that you don't know if that's fucking brutal.

[645] But, um, so like, and sometimes that happens in dating as well when it's like, yeah, I don't even fucking care.

[646] about who you are whatever and it's just like okay this is like you don't have to tell me that like just like we can just have a conversation as two human beings or whatever but yeah I think I would rather if they did know who I was that it was like oh yeah like like your music's cool whatever blah blah blah I probably wouldn't if someone was like like if someone was at like for example if I met a girl at a gig now I probably wouldn't maybe back like ages ago when I was playing small like, no, it just feels a bit, that feels weird to me. Yeah, that's a very big thing.

[647] That feels like maybe taking advantage of your position.

[648] So I probably wouldn't do that.

[649] I wouldn't do that.

[650] Full stop.

[651] But I think, yeah, if someone was like, into the music, that's great.

[652] If someone was like, oh, that's not really my thing, but cool.

[653] Someone hated it, absolutely fine as well.

[654] But I just think, I just like, people to be as up front as possible, Rall and be like, oh, yeah, are you that?

[655] Oh, is that, like, your song, whatever, blah, blah, blah.

[656] that, but it's like...

[657] You just want people to be genuine, right?

[658] Yeah, exactly.

[659] That's the most important thing.

[660] Because if they're not, then you're, there's trust question marks, right?

[661] Yeah, yeah, of course, of course.

[662] And I think that's, again, maybe a big thing of, like, the whole not giving too much of myself away and on the rest of it, like, and putting those walls up.

[663] How is dating and relationships and all that in your life now?

[664] Because I, do you have, do you have, do you have trust issues that people are going for you for the wrong reasons.

[665] That's the question I get asked a lot.

[666] It's like how, especially being like Jagans Den and people know you for like money.

[667] Yeah, yeah, totally.

[668] People think that you're going to attract a certain type of person.

[669] Yeah, course, course.

[670] I mean, yeah, totally.

[671] But there's this, um, really good bit in the trip with Steve Coogan and Rob Biden where he goes, oh well, she's only going out of you because you're famous.

[672] And I see who can goes, but I am famous.

[673] That's like me saying, he's only going out of you because you're good looking and young.

[674] Like, you know, it's that thing of like, it is such a big part right now, at least right now in my life of who I am.

[675] that it is hard to get away from I think it's going to listen more for some crazy coincidence more girls are interested than me now than they were a couple years ago I don't know what it is but it's definitely changed they read about your net worth yeah totally yeah but it's not to say like and I don't but like it's a like again it's that thing of like see people feel like they know you and like all the rest of it and they've seen your personality and you've maybe made them laugh or like whatever that can be a attractive thing yeah yeah and as well you maybe have this people think you're confident because like or at least with me people think confident because of how I am on like if I'm on a talk show or if I'm on like my Instagram or people assume that I'm a lot more kind of confident and if I feel a few beers I'm going to be more chatty and are you confident I wouldn't I wouldn't say so not really again it's that thing of like I feel in really open to like people like it's like that you're kind of put on display like I feel like I hate I don't know I just don't think I'm yeah no I wouldn't I'm not as confident as I was when I was a kid let's put that way I mean I don't think anyone else but like I don't sometimes I feel really outgoing and I'm like oh I'm really chat sometimes I struggle to talk to my friends like see sometimes I'll just be like there'll be a bunch of years around the world be how to laugh and then like free of them leave and it'll just be me and one of one of a pal and I'm really my head.

[676] I'm like, fuck, what do you say to your friends?

[677] Like, do you know what I mean?

[678] It's that way where you're just in your head and get my head and I'm about like, I can't think of it didn't they say it, do you know what I mean?

[679] So sometimes that happens.

[680] Like there's been times where I've done interviews to people and I've been really chatty and outgoing because it's like, it's a set up thing.

[681] They're asking me questions.

[682] I don't necessarily ask them anything.

[683] And it's quite easy to just kind of lock into that rhythm.

[684] But where it's like, and maybe it's maybe part of doing interviews because a lot of the sort of interactions I have.

[685] people are very, like, one -sided of ask a question, I'll answer it, ask a question, I'll answer it.

[686] Whereas, and now I kind of sometimes I'm a bit, especially in a romantic setting, I'm a bit like, what do I say to this?

[687] Like, what do I say to this person?

[688] And it's something that, yeah, I need you get better, obviously.

[689] But, and plus, it's an interesting thing as well, because if someone knows what you do, it's quite an, it's like a job that they might, so they might start asking your questions.

[690] And it becomes a bit of a, the problem is it can become a bit of a Q &A and that's exhausting, isn't it?

[691] Yeah, yeah, totally, of course.

[692] You don't want to be doing that on the fucking weekend.

[693] Yeah, no, totally.

[694] All right, 100%.

[695] Like people asking like, oh, how's the gigs going or how's like writing new music going and you're like?

[696] You're going to give the done answers, which is just, yes, good.

[697] I'm going to go, how's this?

[698] Yes, good.

[699] It's like, let's not talk about this.

[700] And you know, like, they don't really care.

[701] Yeah, yeah, totally.

[702] Isn't that the worst type of question?

[703] When you know someone's asking a question and they don't really care.

[704] Yeah, of course.

[705] I absolutely despise small talk.

[706] Yeah, totally.

[707] As you can probably tell from this podcast.

[708] Yeah, totally, yeah.

[709] No talk has been small.

[710] Straight in.

[711] I fucking hate, I find it exhausted.

[712] Yeah, I totally agree.

[713] But then it's very, again, how often in the real world can you start a conversation with a really deep question?

[714] Never.

[715] Exactly.

[716] So it's like, in this situation, yeah, we got off to that's fucking great start.

[717] And it's like, even, to be fair, even before the podcast and stuff, it was like, having a chat that was about fucking proper and deep stuff.

[718] So it was like, but in real life, if you walk up to Sunday and desks or whatever and go like, tell me about key points in your life.

[719] It's like, then we're like, what the fucking time?

[720] You're like, you just try to buy some bread.

[721] I mean, like, I think that's, it is thingy, but yeah, no, that's what I'm saying, it's like so refreshing to have these conversations and actually speak about these things because it's like, there's just no other situation where you can actually sit down and talk to this unless it's like your family or friends.

[722] But even then it's like, sometimes when you go to see your parents, you don't want to have fucking big deep chats with me. I just want to like be with your parents and enjoy being with your parents and like just sit and have dinner and just enjoy.

[723] Be there.

[724] Yeah, just be there rather than be like, oh, fuck.

[725] Explain your whole life.

[726] Yeah, totally.

[727] Do you know what I mean?

[728] I think, yeah, so these, these situations that are very, I mean, I don't often have, we don't often have conversations as deep in front of cameras, like, that's my cameras, but like, I think, yeah, it's, it's always refreshing.

[729] When you think, so you got, you know, you now realise that there is, and I hate to have, I can add more pressure here, but, you know, there's an expect, there's the, people are waiting now for this, for new music at some point whenever it's going to be coming.

[730] how do you feel how are you feeling about that how you feeling oh i'm like genuinely shit myself the point's making this fucking new music where i was like i'd actually fucking care about this am i just going for the motions and writing this writing these songs and all this to it and then there was be days where i'm like fuck i'm swam on this so now the album's done and every single song on it i fucking love and i think it's a better album the first one and i really care about it and i really put a lot of i write about a lot more stuff that i would never have spoke about on the first album, like, pertaining to my own mental health and, like, my own sort of outlook on things regarding being famous or whatever.

[731] And I think, like, that, it's kind of like a nice thing to be scared because I'm like, oh, fuck, I really, really want this to go well because I really care about this album.

[732] And I realize I really care about making this music and being able to put it out and having this privileged position to be able to fucking go and do that.

[733] But yeah, I'd be lying.

[734] I've said that was anything other than absolutely fucking bricking it.

[735] It's like, it's a serious, and it's like, it's that thing as well, like I said earlier, where people are like, ah man, you can fucking shout, you can fart on the mic and it'll go to fucking top ten or whatever.

[736] Just because the last album did well does not mean that at all.

[737] It's like fucking, it's nonsense.

[738] Like, people want good music.

[739] If isn't the music shite, that it's not going to fly, do you know what I mean?

[740] But you've done the bit you can control?

[741] Yes, 100%.

[742] But is there not now a risk of putting your emotions on the uncontrollable.

[743] Like there's nothing now you can do once you've written music and you've done the hard bit there's nothing more that you can do to control it.

[744] Obviously you can do promo and stuff but that's not gonna, you know, that won't.

[745] That's not going to be the thing that.

[746] Pushes it over the edge, yeah.

[747] No, totally.

[748] And it is that.

[749] It is like the fucking unknown and it is shit that I can't control and it is up to fucking, I don't know, a fucking higher power or faith or whatever, I don't know, but like it's still quite hard.

[750] It's one of those things where no amount of therapy I think is going to help me not focus on that and it is like I'm quite bad for like having anticipation anxiety being like because I'm ready to fucking go now like I'm ready to go like someone suggested that we push things back a bit the other day a bit more and I was like I cannot wait like any longer to put this music out this is like this has to go out and as well if you wait too long it's fucking the album starts to mean less to you and you kind of like you get further away from writing those songs and what they meant to you or whatever so can ask you a question though yes if it goes really well so if it goes bad I kind of can guess how you probably might feel but if it goes really well how will you feel?

[751] I don't know this is like I'm kind of worried that if it goes bad I'll be relieved because I'll be like oh fuck fuck all that pressure is off do you know what I mean like part of me kind of feels like that and then part of me feels like oh no if it goes well I'll be relieved but then sometimes I'm like oh but if it goes well I'll be like fuck I've got other cellar like do you know what I mean there's only like if it goes where sure that just means more prying eyes and more like fame and more like thing which again is fucking great a lot of the time but it has its pitfalls and it's like will that then feed into the anxiety more or is this my anxiety now I've learned to deal with it or will it get worse or will it expand or will it show itself in different ways what would you say to a friend if they were going through thinking all the things you're thinking what would you say if you were if I was your best mate we'd know each other since we were kids and I was saying all this stuff to you what would you say to me I don't know I'd say just like remember why you got into it the first place remember why I'm doing it don't feel like you're working towards some end product feel like you're in it this is the end products you're enjoying it this is what you're supposed to be doing you're here fucking be here don't fucking you're not there's no fucking it's not a destiny like this is pure like on a fucking card but like there's no destination that you're trying to get to but like just fucking like this is the fun part like this is supposed to be fun let it be fun.

[752] Do you know what I mean?

[753] Because I think the only thing that's stopping it would be fun is fucking my mind.

[754] Do I mean?

[755] So, I mean, it's easier to say that to people than to say this.

[756] Yeah, it is, you're right.

[757] But they say, I've read the quote, I've posted this a few times myself where they say, you know, if you always go through life believing happiness is somewhere else, then it'll never be where you are.

[758] Totally.

[759] And it's like deferring the happiness to a future moment.

[760] But it's like a mirage.

[761] You see it in like when people are in those like movies in the desert and they see, I don't know, you're like chasing a rainbow and it just keeps moving off further into the future.

[762] totally and I think that's the thing as well I haven't done all this mad shit and then being to like the Grammys fucking hate the Grammys fucking being to a bunch of other awards shows that I didn't really enjoy the world show that I loved the most was the Brit Awards the night that I had won two awards not because I won the awards but because it was like the first time I ever felt like oh fuck we're celebrating this my mum and dad were there three of my best pals for home were able to come down and do it the people who had worked on the record but I actually sat at the table with me. We were like, like, label -wise and manager -wise and that, we're like, that felt like an amazing moment.

[763] And then you realize it's because there was all these people there.

[764] It wasn't like because...

[765] I'm there and I've won something or whatever.

[766] It's because you're celebrating this way, like, people that you love and people that you have been through it all with you and have...

[767] My mom and dad, obviously, my mom gave birth to me, by the way, I don't know.

[768] Oh, really?

[769] Yeah, yeah.

[770] So, like, my mom and dad, and then my friends who I've grown up with and then these people who have put their fucking blood -swetting tears and they're making the record with me and then like the label and stuff who've worked so hard on promoting it and getting out there and I think that's that was what like what you realise is like I mean again it's like so fucking like cliche however but that is like you were like fuck this is genuinely why it's fun like because you're getting to share this moment with all these other people when it's not anything to do with like you say getting to a point like getting to the Brits and winning a brett was very I was having a fucking great night that night regardless, do you know what I mean?

[771] There was nothing that was going to like...

[772] Either way.

[773] Yeah, do you know what I mean?

[774] If I'd lost, I wouldn't have been like, ah, fuck, I lost.

[775] Nice room and I'm going home.

[776] It wouldn't have been like, all right, cool, let's fucking kick on.

[777] It just so happened that I won these two things that had to carry about me for the rest of the night.

[778] You know what I mean?

[779] If I think it was a hindrance.

[780] You know, it was like a part of these guys.

[781] No, but then like, and then going to the Grammys, I remember Gramies started to finish, had the panic attack the whole time.

[782] It was fucking dreadful.

[783] hated every moment of it and when we didn't win I remember feeling like oh thank God and like it just kind of like melted away because it was like thank fuck I don't need to go and do that shit I don't know if it maybe was like fuck this is good I don't know if maybe in my head I'm like oh fuck if we were to win something like that that's like more and more eyes on you that maybe you can't handle at this moment in time I don't know if I was like my body like telling me something but I fucking hated the Grammys Pish like all these things were like and at that time it was just me, my manager, and, like, the guys who I wrote, I love with, like, I think when you can see the people, I mean, I love them to bits, but when you can see, like, the people you're, like, who have kind of made you who you are, as it were, enjoying the things that you're enjoying, and seeing it unfold and stuff, I think that's the, that's the buzz.

[784] So how do you make sure, how do you take that with you going forward?

[785] Well, hopefully the record does well enough next time that I can ask for more tickets to things.

[786] Do you what I mean?

[787] that's honestly like but I think that's like it's just keeping those people close and like that's another thing about COVID and going back to like I live from my parents like I didn't have a flat or whatever I lived with my parents because I was on tour all the time I never needed the house so I moved out during COVID and stuff and it's like that realizing like like no matter what however things go no matter where you go and what happens in your career or fucking it's like it's always just going to come back to that and those people and those and like i where your roots are and stuff i don't think it's it's just for me that's that's it kind reaffirms the importance of all that stuff COVID like being there and being back and yeah i think that was for me that that that COVID for me that was kind of what i got out of it and i think for me it's just then taking that forward and try at any time i can share moments like that with people, even if it means that I was doing an award show in America, flying some people out and doing it.

[788] And it's like, fucking, it's like not worrying about like, oh fuck it's quite expensive they fly it.

[789] Fuck it, fly the moot because it's like, it's going to make the moment.

[790] It's going to make the moment.

[791] Yeah, it's going to make, exactly, yeah.

[792] It's going to make it fucking what it is and it's going to fucking that's the bus.

[793] Yeah.

[794] Do you have any goals looking really into the future?

[795] Do you have any of those big bucket list style goals where you go, fucking how that would be?

[796] I'd like to write a song for a film.

[797] Okay.

[798] That's kind of my only, James Bond or something maybe not I don't know if that's me I don't know if I'm sloav enough to have that sort of like thingy but I don't know man anything anything would be good but even if it's like I don't know some like indie film whatever it doesn't have to be fucking thing I just like I quite like the idea of that's like a new challenge like writing for I wrote for a game once that was quite fun I enjoyed that I reckon you could do it for a podcast yeah fucking sure I like it come on battle on the voice that's it your net worth I know you're not cheap but yeah so that for me that's kind of I don't really have any like in terms of like chart positions and else like again I never really had it a first time round and I think it's only you're only going to be disappointed in situations like that I think maybe yeah I don't really know I just kind of again it's meant to be fun and I think me putting goals on things the way my mind works would kind of strip that of some of the fun of it do you know what I mean?

[799] So yeah the film thing would be good and I hope the people who really really loved the first album really really love the second album doesn't have been more like more people but the people who like really carry the album with them and still are fucking like like still fucking are connected to it and I still fucking playing it over and over again I hope that they love the second record and I hope that I did that and their eyes did it justice because in mine I have.

[800] What about personal goals?

[801] So, like, when I look at my personal life, I go, okay, there's a certain balance and structure to my personal life that I hope to achieve someday.

[802] I think I still need to learn how to say no to things.

[803] I think I'm getting, I've cancelled shows before and all the rest of it, but I'm quite bad at, like, oh fuck, if I say no to that, that's an opportunity that just won't come back or whatever.

[804] I need to learn how, I'd like to be able to do that just for my own sort of personal life.

[805] I'd like to do some travelling that isn't relating to work at some point I guess that's like taking time for myself out of like that was kind of the plan over COVID like what became COVID that I was going to go away and see all these places and actually just take some time so I'd like to do that kids, relationships I don't know I mean a relationship would obviously be nice not something I'm seeking at the moment weigh on all these apps then just for BDSM yeah just for BD is just for my kids Kink shirt, yeah, just for my my kinks.

[806] But I don't know, I think it's still nice to have, like, I like meeting new people and hanging out with new people and like shagging in that, I guess.

[807] I don't, I'm sorry for that, but I don't really have like, if at least shit came up with the right person, fucking, if I met the right person, bang on, like, I'd be buzzed.

[808] But like, just, I think right now, as well, it's a bit unfair for the other person if I'm fucking constantly away and all the rest of it.

[809] They have to be quite an understanding human being.

[810] Kids, I think that's fucking, right now it's not on my plans at all.

[811] Yeah, but you're so fucking young.

[812] Yeah, exactly, like I'm 25, so it's like, I see him my friends having, some of my friends, one of my parents, I've got four kids.

[813] Matt's saying, who's me?

[814] And it's like, or three kids with me, I don't know, but I don't know to speak to him that much anymore.

[815] It became my dad and I didn't want anything to me. That just reminds me of how, like, I'm getting older.

[816] But yeah, no, like people aren't getting married and having kids and that.

[817] That's just like not my bag at all.

[818] And again, I don't have anything wrong with that.

[819] People like doing their thing.

[820] I suspect you'll meet someone.

[821] That's what happened with me where I was very much the type of person where I was like, it's not fair on them.

[822] I'm too busy.

[823] My work comes first, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[824] And then I met someone.

[825] I've seen this a lot with, especially with some musicians that were like rock stars, like proper like, you know, rocks, drugs, drugs, drugs.

[826] And then they meet someone and they just flip.

[827] Yeah.

[828] Because a lot of things going out and doing stuff like that, It's boredom.

[829] Yeah.

[830] That is a lot of, like, I don't know.

[831] I love a fucking night out.

[832] A lot of times you're like, you'll be sitting about Thursday night or something.

[833] And you've got nothing on Wednesday and you're like, fuck it's boredom.

[834] So we just go get a few pints and then you end up out and you're fucking unimagin.

[835] So it's like, I can totally see that like that, that switch.

[836] So I mean.

[837] Nice because you're being young.

[838] Yeah, totally.

[839] 100%.

[840] And I think that's a big thing as well.

[841] It's like remembering that I'm in my 20s is a big thing for me. Because sometimes I'm a bit like, fuck let's just get this done and not giving a fuck and missing birthdays and fucking weddings and all this shit if you don't know I think it's something's important to remember my age and like shit like that like to actually take time for life rather than just slave it's slaving away at work we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the previous guest asks a question to the next guest you might have seen it before the previous guest asked you a question but I'm actually going to ask a follow -up question to this as well the question they left for you was not knowing who they left it for was kind of interesting question that they left it for you but would you rather win the Premier League win an Oscar or headline Glastonbury I mean I think I'm in this quick do you know what actually see that I do think there's something unreal about like see being a score and she's scoring like a great goal like a great goal should do soccer raid yeah oh fuck me I'm shite of it but I'll be like a manager of standing the side of like the sound about that that I've always thought fuck that'd be the best feeling ever like I'm a cellic fan so like old firm derby like scoring like a fucking the winning goal 90th minute fucking whatever like that must be unreal but obviously just because I'm a musician I mean headlining glass would be pretty fucking so I'm gonna so I kind of that's why I knew it would be a bit of an easier question for you so I'm gonna ask a question which we mentioned earlier on which was caused a bit of eureka moment in your life which is how are you you doing?

[842] I'm good, I think.

[843] I'm definitely not...

[844] I think over the last two, three weeks, I've really come back to, like, being myself.

[845] I think I was maybe in a bit of a...

[846] not like a rut, but like a funny patch over the few weeks prior.

[847] I think I was maybe going out a bit too much.

[848] Kind of feeling a bit dejected.

[849] Because we're just like this...

[850] As I was sort of about this long run up to releasing this first single.

[851] I've thought a bit dejected about that and stuff and just overall, just anxiety just like really fucking getting the better of me. But I think over the last couple of weeks I've kind of coming at the other end of it so I feel pretty good I feel quite optimistic cautiously optimistic but yeah there's still there, anxiety's always there but I think yeah I'm very yeah I'm happy at the minute which is good that's most I can ask for.

[852] Operating at 80 % it's fucking class.

[853] I can see the caution in the words which is telling.

[854] But you know what?

[855] I couldn't be more...

[856] I don't sit here and gas people up or really bullshit them because I don't really have to.

[857] You can say other things.

[858] I genuinely love your music.

[859] Thank you so much.

[860] And I really, really mean that.

[861] Like, I genuinely sincerely mean that.

[862] I've watched your acoustic tracks on your covers on YouTube of your own songs.

[863] I've watched all of it and I couldn't be more excited to hear whatever you do next and I'm not even even as a fan of yours I'm not even anticipating it's going to be the same as last time I'm actually just so intrigued to hear another another Lewis and when I say another Lewis I just mean more Lewis more from you because you know your album was actually quite I think because you have so many hits on hits on there it can feel a little bit short in hindsight Yeah, totally.

[864] I've played the song so many times.

[865] So I'm so excited for that.

[866] And I also want to thank you generally because it's so refreshing for someone to be so unbelievably open and honest with some of the issues you talk about because you won't know after this conversation comes out how many people you help by doing that.

[867] That when Jack came on and talked about his health anxiety, Jack said online he got thousands of messages a day of people thanking him because there's not enough people talking about it.

[868] What's the incentive to do so?

[869] There is an incentive, but doesn't appear to be one.

[870] It seems to be a greater cost.

[871] So thank you for that, because we need to have more of those conversations.

[872] Especially about therapy and being a man and being open about your feelings.

[873] And thank you for doing this.

[874] It's a huge on it.

[875] Honestly, thank you so much for having me on.

[876] It's honestly so refreshing to actually have a fucking full on conversation and that conversation about this stuff because no one has ever asked me the questions that you've asked me today.

[877] So it's good to actually talk.

[878] I feel lighter.

[879] Great.