Joseph Gordon-Levitt

[0] Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm Dan Rather.

[2] I'm joined by...

[3] What's another famous, Monica?

[4] Nobody.

[5] Monica, the singer.

[6] Monica, no last name.

[7] I don't even know that.

[8] You're thinking of Madonna.

[9] No, there was a singer named Monica in the 90s, I think, 2000s.

[10] And she didn't have a last name.

[11] She should have maybe got a last name because I think I would still remember her maybe.

[12] She was an R &B artist.

[13] If someone says, like, if you heard, Monica's new song.

[14] I just think someone's talking about their friend.

[15] Well, I mean, I specifically would think about, they were talking about you.

[16] Well, I like that.

[17] But let's say, you heard Jenny's new song?

[18] You'd immediately go, oh, that's someone's friend named Jenny.

[19] Okay, but not, if someone said, have you heard Beyonce's new song, you'd know.

[20] Great point.

[21] Great counterpoint.

[22] Point set match.

[23] Listen, Babelort, major babelort for the podcast today.

[24] Tell me about it.

[25] Joseph Gordon Leavitt, JGL.

[26] JGL all day, all night.

[27] He's an actor, he's a filmmaker, and an entrepreneur.

[28] He has a media company called HitRecord, which is a very neat platform for people to generate in a communal way, art. You've seen him in Inception, 500 Days of Summer, The Dark Night.

[29] He directed Don John, one of my favorite movies.

[30] He was in brick and is a little wee babe.

[31] He was in Angels in the Outfield, of course, Third Rock from the Sun.

[32] Don't forget his Pop Darts commercial.

[33] We will learn all about that.

[34] He has a new podcast called Creative Processing with Joseph Gordon Levitt.

[35] He was a babe on the inside now.

[36] He really enjoyed him.

[37] Hope you too will enjoy JGL.

[38] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and add free right now.

[39] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[40] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[41] Now, you do drink coffee, right?

[42] Now and then.

[43] Oh, just now and then.

[44] Well, then it works when I needed to.

[45] Right.

[46] Yeah, that's the strategy.

[47] How responsible of you.

[48] What are you starting your day with?

[49] I assume, like me, you're awoken to screaming.

[50] Yeah.

[51] Is that your entry?

[52] Chronically underslept is really, it's like, in a very lucky, comfortable life, the final frontier is not being tired and underslept.

[53] Yeah.

[54] I need to fix that out.

[55] I never had the wherewithal to take for granted that you could wake up when you were in the mood and that you would wake up in a quiet environment.

[56] Now it's always, I wake up because I have to intercept some fight that's happening in their room.

[57] Yeah, they're pretty gentle, but they wake up early.

[58] And, yeah, I mean, I'm a night owl.

[59] I like to be up late.

[60] If left to my own devices, I'll pretty much stay up until the sun comes up.

[61] Uh -huh.

[62] I have a similar, I guess, circadian rhythm.

[63] Is that what it is?

[64] Yeah.

[65] But do you have this?

[66] Mine is, I actually have figured out I needed 26 -hour day because what happens basically is like, let's say I stayed up to midnight on Monday.

[67] Generally, I want to stay up to one or two the next night.

[68] And then two to four, like I think my body thinks if there's 26 hours, I'd be golden.

[69] Yeah, but then you would need 28 hours.

[70] And then a year later, you'd need 30 hours.

[71] You think so?

[72] Yeah, that's how it works.

[73] Well, it did occur to me. could move to a planet where the cycle was like 36 hours.

[74] Yeah, you could also just build yourself a different watch and give yourself however many hours you want.

[75] They'd be shorter.

[76] Yeah.

[77] Well, I would have to have basically a biodome at that point for the sunlights.

[78] I wouldn't want to get seasonal affected mood disorder.

[79] No, but I'm saying you could measure what we call 12 hours of sunlight.

[80] You could say, oh, this is 30 blowers.

[81] Oh, oh, oh, a whole other time.

[82] Okay, but we would still be dealing with the same amount of sunlight.

[83] It's true, but the numbers would be high.

[84] higher so it would feel different.

[85] It might.

[86] It really might.

[87] Wait, are we recording yet?

[88] No, we're always, A -B -R.

[89] It always be recording.

[90] Oh, I hadn't heard that one.

[91] Okay.

[92] I like to think we made it up.

[93] I'll give you the credit.

[94] Well, everything from Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross, ABC, right?

[95] Right.

[96] Always be closed.

[97] Yeah, so no matter what anyone says, I just will go straight.

[98] Like, let's eat.

[99] Yes, A -B -E.

[100] Yeah.

[101] Always be eating.

[102] It's a good thing that Mamet wrote the script we're about to perform on your podcast.

[103] Yes.

[104] Can you imagine?

[105] I guess what role of my, can I have the aleck ball?

[106] Aldwin roll?

[107] Yeah, and I'll be, I was going to say Pacino, but that wouldn't be, who's, is Alan Alda in, I don't know, but you've been compared to Jack Lemon, so it's weird to me, you wouldn't just hop right into the Jack Lemon Roll.

[108] I'll take the Jack Lemon Roll, cool then, great.

[109] And similarly, I have never been compared to Alex.

[110] And you can be Kevin Spacey, I guess.

[111] Oh, that's, yeah.

[112] Oh, sorry, wait, that has context now that, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.

[113] But I'm happy to fill in and bring a new context to that.

[114] Okay, yeah, great.

[115] Yeah.

[116] I didn't mean, I, oh, we're allowed to say their name.

[117] Yeah, we're allowed to acknowledge that they existed on planet Earth.

[118] When I go into thinking about Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross, then my mind goes back in time to when I was just a fan of him as an actor and didn't know anything about, you know.

[119] Of course.

[120] And yeah, well, all right.

[121] And now, so we've had this debate on here numerous times.

[122] I am someone for better or worse.

[123] I don't know if this makes me amoral or not, but I can click my brain right back into that era.

[124] Like, we watched a documentary where the lead was dead.

[125] What was that?

[126] the lead was dead or maybe a show where we knew that the actor or the lead was actually dead and you were thinking about it the whole time but I wasn't I was just like oh this guy's alive in this thing oh yeah I guess we were watching some episodes of no reservations or no I think the more exciting title he had oh well we were watching some Anthony Bourdain show and I was thinking about that the whole time mostly and then he was like the fact that he was dead just the fact that he is past okay okay in a sad fashion Yeah, so not only aware that he's no longer with us, but then also probably contemplating, how much joy is he really experiencing in this?

[127] Because I know he was depressed now.

[128] Like, for her, it may be tore away all the veneer.

[129] Yeah.

[130] But for me, I'm all in.

[131] I'm like, oh, he's having a blast.

[132] The dark days are far from now.

[133] Yeah.

[134] I can go there.

[135] I guess I can too.

[136] And when I listen to music or watch a movie or something, I do tend to separate the actual person.

[137] from the art like for example one of my favorite musicians is harry nilsson or another one is nina simone and both of those musicians actually have documentaries i believe both on netflix that tell you about the dark personal lives of these human beings and i haven't watched them because when i listen to their songs there's a lot of meaning i have a lot of my own associations with those songs and i don't want to conflate that very dear precious thing to me with some pain.

[138] Yeah, with whatever was going on with them.

[139] Like, I kind of feel like it's none of my business, kind of what was going on with Harry Nilsson or Nina Simone.

[140] They might have been in pain or they might.

[141] I mean, I get the moral question, like, well, what if they were doing bad things?

[142] And now you being a fan is sort of enabling those bad things.

[143] And that is really complicated.

[144] It is complicated, but I think it's kind of moot when the person's dead, right?

[145] So I watched the Michael Jackson documentary.

[146] I loved it.

[147] I'm open about having been molested.

[148] I think those dudes bravery and the details I can't imagine being that brave.

[149] I totally believe them.

[150] When I hear off the wall, it still sounds great to me. If I'm in the car, I'm fucking still dancing to it.

[151] There's just a big hard wall for me between those two things.

[152] That's really interesting.

[153] But again, I'm not putting money in his pocket.

[154] I'm not helping perpetuate the machine maybe that exists to do all that stuff.

[155] Yeah.

[156] But to your point, I like your example is more innocuous because how far, down the road, do we go?

[157] Do we go like, well, I know that person's a junkie, and I know they're going to kill themselves if I support them and I give them money so they can do more drugs?

[158] You know, what is the infraction by which we can't?

[159] I tend to, at least in my mind, just, yeah, like you said, make a big separation between someone's work and their personal life.

[160] Because if you refuse to enjoy the benefits of the work of anybody who ever did a really bad thing, we're going to be one of the Stone Age, basically.

[161] There's going to be one song on the radio.

[162] Like, Kenny G all the time.

[163] All of art, not just art, like probably a lot of science and advances in any other field.

[164] A lot of the work that's been done that's allowed us to live comfortable lives or have a civilization or, you know, speak languages or read books or appreciate electronic anything.

[165] There's been really unjust tragedies that were, you know, perpetuated by the people who made huge contributions.

[166] And so I just don't know.

[167] I mean, I completely agree that people should be held unaccountable for their actions, of course.

[168] Yeah.

[169] Especially by the law.

[170] Yes.

[171] Even also if they have victims that want to sue them civilly, bring it on.

[172] That's the law.

[173] But I made a similar argument that you're making, which is I think what we've really done is just said that we prioritize science over art. Because if we were to find out Isaac Newton had molested a bunch of people, we're not throwing out the laws of gravity.

[174] We're not going to do that.

[175] We're going to go, no, no, that guy was a piece of shit, but he gave us something brilliant.

[176] We're going to take it and use it.

[177] So by saying we're going to throw art out, we're kind of just saying, well, it's not as important as Newtonian physics.

[178] This is something I think about a lot, too, is just when someone's appreciating a work of art, a lot of it has to do with just appreciating that person.

[179] And when you appreciate a work of art, you feel connected to that person and you like that person.

[180] Maybe you identify with that person or you aspire to be like that person.

[181] Whatever it is, you feel that human connection.

[182] Whereas when I'm understanding the laws of physics, I don't feel a human connection to Isaac Newton or, you know, right.

[183] His fingerprint isn't on it as much as art. Yeah, the work itself has value or utility or something independent of that human connection.

[184] But I feel like different people have different relationships to art in that way.

[185] Like, I know some people who it's really all about that human connection, whatever music they happen to be listened to, it's because they're feeling a real human connection.

[186] connection with the human who's making that music.

[187] And then I have other friends who, and I think I'm probably more in this camp, although I fluctuate, but who when they like a piece of music or a movie or whatever, it really doesn't have that much to do with a person.

[188] It has to do with the song itself or the movie itself.

[189] Yeah.

[190] My example would be like, I think Fleetwood Max written some of the most beautiful love songs of all time.

[191] If you actually evaluate their love life during that time, they're all fucking each other, the band blows up, they all have 26 husbands and wives, you shouldn't really be taking any love advice from them, but by God, they somehow found some truth, despite their own failures.

[192] And it's because art you associate personal memories with, and you don't necessarily associate personal memories with science.

[193] Right.

[194] The infert penicillin.

[195] Like, I fell in love to carry while learning about theory of relativity.

[196] That was in the backdrop at all times, because we tried to understand this theory.

[197] Yeah, no one has that.

[198] But with music and stuff, it feels very hard to separate and say, like, well, I guess I'll remove that memory because it's bad now.

[199] Like, you can't.

[200] You can't disassociate those things.

[201] Right.

[202] Yeah.

[203] You prefer Joe, right?

[204] Jose, Giuseppe.

[205] Okay.

[206] Oh, lots of options.

[207] Youssef is another good one.

[208] I guess that name is in virtually all languages, isn't it?

[209] It's a pretty...

[210] Not the East Asian ones, but...

[211] Yeah.

[212] Yeah.

[213] Yeah.

[214] We'll get there.

[215] We'll work on it.

[216] Right.

[217] But do you recall any time that we've met?

[218] Because I recall the one time we met...

[219] Oh, shit.

[220] No, it's okay.

[221] I don't mean to put you a...

[222] on the spot.

[223] It's more for me to own one of my more embarrassing moments.

[224] So I think by your reaction, I know you don't remember.

[225] Kristen and I went to a Kings game, a hockey game.

[226] And then you and Chan were sitting directly behind us.

[227] Wow.

[228] And I don't think I meant either of you, but we introduce ourselves to you.

[229] Both had movies coming out in three weeks.

[230] You had premium rush and I had hit and run, which I had written and directed.

[231] And I, of course, was just aware of that because that's all I'm thinking about at that time is like oh my god have a movie coming out is it going to tank blah blah blah and then here I'm sitting right in front of you my quote competition that weekend so that's really funny I think I just don't know what else to say to you and I kind of go like oh yeah our movies are coming out on the same weekend you're like yeah and then I say and I think about this probably once every four months this will pop into my head okay it's so embarrassed and I go well may the best movie win I don't know why I said that I didn't know what else to say about it.

[232] I appreciate that as a sense of humor.

[233] You have to kind of take this shit lightly.

[234] Oh.

[235] And I just always, like, from that moment and I thought, well, if he does remember meeting me, he certainly is like, he said the weirdest thing like, what, let the best movie win.

[236] Yeah, I don't remember that.

[237] Okay, great.

[238] I haven't thought of it, no. But it's funny, what I think about a lot, actually, what that reminds me of is how we do turn what we do into a competition.

[239] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's going to be a winner and a loser.

[240] Right, but should there be, no. No, no, no. But again, you and I might not personally care, but we are aware of the fact that if it does well, we'll get to do more of what we like to do.

[241] So it's like intrinsically baked in.

[242] That is the other side of the coin.

[243] And I think a lot about how it shouldn't matter what box office or awards or critics or scores or number of likes or followers.

[244] Like, no that should matter.

[245] Right.

[246] Like, it should be about my creative process and the love of doing it.

[247] it, and that's what makes me happy.

[248] And that is really true, and I have found in my life that when I just focus on, I actually what I really love is making stuff, then that leads me to happiness, whereas when I focus on those other kind of external validations, it drives me crazy and makes me unhappy.

[249] But it's 100 % true the point you just made, and I have to acknowledge that when those metrics, when those external validators are positive, you do.

[250] get more professional opportunities.

[251] Right.

[252] And so those professional opportunities then lead to the opportunity to do that thing that I really like doing.

[253] So I can't ignore that those things matter.

[254] I just wish that I could.

[255] Yeah, the mental trick I try to play with myself is like I'm in the show up and work business.

[256] I'm not in the results business.

[257] I just don't have anything to do with the results.

[258] As you know, you've written and directed a movie.

[259] The process of making it is like what you'll think of on your deathbed.

[260] It's like the most fun, And then ultimately the whole thing's decided on a Friday, not even Friday night.

[261] You get that call like seven on the West Coast and they go, so here's the thing.

[262] And you're like, well, wait, can't there be a miracle on the West Coast?

[263] They haven't even started going to.

[264] No, there's not going to be a miracle.

[265] There never has been one.

[266] This actually is science.

[267] And then you accidentally start evaluating that two -year process by that fucking phone call on a Friday.

[268] And this is so unfair to the experience.

[269] Yeah, it's true.

[270] And funny you say that it's what you'll remember.

[271] on your deathbed.

[272] I think about that a lot too.

[273] That's part of how I often measure or make decisions.

[274] Like, do I want to take this job?

[275] Do I want to spend my time doing this?

[276] I think about when I'm old and I'm like, I know I'm going to die pretty soon.

[277] I'm going to go back and look at a whole bunch of different things that I did throughout my life and I'm going to remember them.

[278] Yeah.

[279] You're not going to look at a spreadsheet of your box office performance.

[280] No, I'm not.

[281] And I'm not going to go back through my Twitter feed and read my great tweets either those are disposable and so I think about that like what am I going to remember what's going to be meaningful to me and I don't know maybe that's wrongheaded because you're putting too much emphasis on the future and it's important to be present but sure do find that compelling like relating to the old man me but that's always the push and pull right is we're part animal and we're moved by those animal urges yeah like to do base things like, well, I know that you quit drinking, right?

[282] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[283] But drinking in Twitter is actually pretty similar.

[284] They're both addictive, you know, like reward center.

[285] Basically, like they figured out how to make software into a drug.

[286] And that's, oh, yeah.

[287] And they've studied there's science behind how they build these sort of addictive software products to take advantage of your brain chemistry.

[288] And, I mean, there's all sorts of science behind it.

[289] The one I heard that was most nefarious.

[290] is it was like one of these guys who defected from Google and went around and did a bunch of interviews.

[291] Yeah.

[292] Tristan Harris is his name.

[293] Tristan, yeah.

[294] Yeah.

[295] And he was saying that on Twitter, when you reload, like you pull down so it'll reload.

[296] Yep.

[297] That the reload is completely arbitrary.

[298] It could be always loaded.

[299] Right.

[300] But it is determining at that moment, do you need to wait 0 .5 seconds or 1 .2 seconds to keep your interest?

[301] And I was like, well, fuck.

[302] We're all defenseless.

[303] How on earth could you outsmart something that has figured out whether I need to wait.

[304] wait 30 seconds or one.

[305] The other thing that Tristan says is that that exact technique is taken directly from slot machines.

[306] Yeah.

[307] So gambling is everyone recognizes that gambling is an addiction.

[308] Yes.

[309] You can go to like gamblers anonymous.

[310] Sure.

[311] Do 12 step programs.

[312] The only thing I'm not addicted to, shockingly.

[313] It's the one thing.

[314] Have you given it a real chance?

[315] I've done a quite a bit of gambling.

[316] I've played poker for a couple years seriously.

[317] Or regularly.

[318] I won't say seriously.

[319] But I do think that probably not.

[320] too much time.

[321] There'll be 12 -step programs for social media.

[322] In South Korea, they treat kids for video game addiction.

[323] That's right.

[324] Yeah, so I feel like that's got to get it over here eventually.

[325] Right.

[326] Those two sides of being a human.

[327] There's those things that we have urges to do.

[328] And I don't think they necessarily have to be unhealthy.

[329] Like, I think there is such a thing as Twitter in moderation, and there is such a thing as drinking in moderation is different for everybody and everybody has to kind of know their own threshold for okay this particular thing I can do this much of it before it sucks me in and I know this about myself with social media is like I know that if I start reading mentions on Twitter it'll suck me in and I know I just need to pretty much not do that yeah because it never really leads to anything positive yeah well that's another thing I quote a lot in here is in Malcolm Gladwell's book blink it talks about the power of the chemicals that give either a reward versus you've eaten a poisonous fruit yeah you know those two chemicals one is 10 times as powerful as the other so if you read nine awesome mentions and you read one you're a piece of shit unfortunately you're powerless over that you're going to get a chemical that's 10 times stronger than the dopamine you got from the compliments 100 % yeah and and we're naturally that way also because when our ancestors are out living in the wild if someone comes like running up saying like danger danger danger we're going to pay attention to them yes whereas if someone comes up and is like let's have a nuanced conversation about you know the way of the world or like how we might solve this problem you're like i'm gonna probably not pay attention to you i might might pay attention to you later right right right and that's kind of what happens on social media is you get someone like i think trump wins an election because he's running up saying Danger, danger, danger, danger.

[330] Yeah.

[331] It gets everyone's attention.

[332] And social media really amplifies that.

[333] Yeah.

[334] Fear's a much better motivator, generally.

[335] Yeah.

[336] Than mild pleasure.

[337] No extreme pleasure is a pretty big motivator.

[338] Yeah.

[339] Like if you watch what people will go through to get cracker heroin, you're like, that's pretty motivating.

[340] Right.

[341] Although is it fear of coming down, yeah, who knows?

[342] That's interesting.

[343] I have always watched you from the outside, not knowing you.

[344] And I've always been very intrigued.

[345] to buy you as a person professionally.

[346] Oh, thank you.

[347] Truly, you fall into one of these categories of people, unicorns.

[348] Again, by my estimation and my projection, I'm like, this guy has a different relationship with this job than I do.

[349] It what appears to be kind of a healthy way.

[350] I'm flattered so far.

[351] Yeah.

[352] Also, just a very interesting career in that I was aware of you from Third Rock, from the Sun.

[353] And then I was like, where is this going to go?

[354] And it went to.

[355] to the very top of the mountain.

[356] And then there were different periods where you're like, I'm cool.

[357] I'm going to sit out for a while.

[358] I don't know where one would get that confidence.

[359] I'm like, oh, holy shit, they let me in this party.

[360] I'll never fucking leave.

[361] I don't care what job I have to do to stay at the party by the end.

[362] But there seems to be some compass or confidence or something that has kind of guided you.

[363] And I am very curious as to how that originated.

[364] And if some of it is that you've kind of always had employment when you wanted it because you started so young.

[365] Do you have a relationship with it that it's like there when you want it and it's not going to go away?

[366] Or do you have all the fears I have and other people have?

[367] I definitely have all those fears.

[368] It's true.

[369] I had a really, you know, fortunate run for a few years there.

[370] And then I did decide to take a few years off.

[371] Really because I just wanted to have kids.

[372] Right.

[373] And so that's what motivated that.

[374] Yeah, it wasn't because I was like, oh, it'll be fine.

[375] I was scared and remained scared.

[376] Okay.

[377] I just, good, you're human.

[378] I just couldn't pass up the experience of like, these babies are here.

[379] I'm not going to go to work.

[380] Yes.

[381] And I have the privilege that I could do that.

[382] Yes.

[383] Look, not everybody has this privilege.

[384] If I do have the ability, like I can afford to take time off of work.

[385] Yes.

[386] A lot of people can't afford to, but I can, so I'm going to.

[387] And how much of that is motivated in the experiential sense, right?

[388] Like, oh, if I can stay home and interact with these.

[389] kids, I choose that, I want to do that, versus...

[390] I feel like I ought to.

[391] Yeah, like when I'm 70 and I recognize, I didn't really have to work.

[392] Am I going to feel like a piece of shit that I chose that and regret that?

[393] Yeah, that's a great question.

[394] I would say there's probably both.

[395] Going into it was betting that experientially, I'm going to get a lot out of this.

[396] And even just in a present sense, there's going to be a lot of rewarding moments if I really take the time and just hang out with this kid.

[397] Yeah.

[398] And then this second kid.

[399] Yeah.

[400] And that's true.

[401] And I don't like to talk too much personally about your children.

[402] About my kids just because I want them to.

[403] And I 100 % respect anybody who does.

[404] Well, I started like you.

[405] Yeah.

[406] And now I do it.

[407] And now I'm more wrestling with like, oh, what age am I going to shut this off?

[408] Or they might actually, mind you, they couldn't be least interested in Kristen Nice.

[409] Full body of work.

[410] Yeah.

[411] This is fascinating.

[412] and tell me. So, okay, this has been my approach and feeling like the way my imagination goes is because, yeah, obviously, right now they wouldn't be aware of it or care.

[413] But when they're X years old, they're going to look back and I don't want them to feel exposed or like people know things about them that they might not want people to know.

[414] Consented to have known about them.

[415] I want that to be their choice.

[416] I agree.

[417] But again, some people do, and I respect that too.

[418] Totally.

[419] I have really good friends who I think are wonderful people.

[420] parents who are very open publicly about their family life.

[421] And I think there's actually something really virtuous about that because maybe they're setting good examples.

[422] One thing I feel like I've learned about parenting, if there's one thing, it's, I can't think less of or judge anybody's choices that are different than mine.

[423] Everybody's got their own thing and they're approaching it their own way.

[424] But one thing I'll say is, so I have this internal thought, which is like, same as you.

[425] They're not public figures.

[426] Their life doesn't need to be out loud, right?

[427] They just force myself to imagine the opposite argument, which in this case, I'll sometimes think, oh, when they're 20 and they might, I don't know why they would, go back and listen to all this, wouldn't it be flattering that I can't go 15 minutes without talking about them?

[428] They're on my mind all the time.

[429] I love everything they do.

[430] I talk about what they do.

[431] Like, is there another side of it where they would go like, well, you had this whole show, you talked for 3 ,000 hours and you never brought me up once.

[432] I guess I didn't mean that much to you.

[433] Oh, that's really interesting.

[434] Whereas like, they can actually hear how much I think about them in real life.

[435] There is a record of how often when I'm away from them, I'm actually thinking about them and talking about them.

[436] So I don't know which is better.

[437] I feel like this medium of podcasting and this platform you've created for yourself with this show, which I really admire.

[438] Oh, thank you.

[439] Awesome what you've built.

[440] I feel like talking about them in this context does feel different because, A, you have total control over it.

[441] different than like speaking in an interview or on a talk show or whatever where someone else is going to edit that together and they're going to throw whatever context they want to like turn it into whatever they want it to be.

[442] And they might cheapen it or they might totally twist it or they completely make it sound like you're saying something 100 % factually inaccurate.

[443] And so this happens when you're giving interviews, etc. Whereas if you're talking about your kids here in this context where it's long form I guess someone could theoretically take it out of context if they wanted to like rip the audio and chop it up yeah like that's not it doesn't seem to be how it's working no to my to my shock like maybe there's too many fucking podcasts for them to mind all the shit yeah like I think probably the practical reason is that that wouldn't get clicks yeah if some if you chopped up a thing from a podcast and tried to post it on Facebook or Twitter, how many people would take the time to, like, no one actually listens to the sound, like 80 % of videos on Twitter and Facebook are watched without sound.

[444] Oh, really?

[445] So this is the thing that's, I think, so great about podcasts.

[446] I really think that podcasting as a medium is a positive sort of counter to the fragmented short attention span freneticness of social media, because you can take the time to have a whole conversation and dive in deep.

[447] acknowledge the nuances.

[448] Yeah.

[449] Also, you're all kind of protected because so often what happens is they pull something out of an interview, right?

[450] Yeah.

[451] You go through someone's filter, which I can't stand.

[452] But you're now left to defend in public, let's say.

[453] Oh, but that whole conversation that he didn't print, really, I said this, this and this.

[454] And then he only put, so the data's here for everyone to examine.

[455] So if they were to cherry pick something, they know ultimately wouldn't stand up because someone will just check out the whole context and it exists.

[456] Whereas in a media interview, no one's ever turning over their fucking recorder and saying.

[457] Right.

[458] That stuff's on the cutting room floor and not accessible.

[459] That's a good point.

[460] Yeah.

[461] And it's your show.

[462] So whatever you're putting out, you know you're putting it out.

[463] So there's nothing to defend.

[464] It's like, yeah, this is what I chose to say.

[465] So there's no gotcha moments.

[466] You're right.

[467] This is just, I'm choosing to say that.

[468] You're right.

[469] There's no implication that I slipped up.

[470] Right.

[471] Right.

[472] In other ways, it's like, oops, they slipped.

[473] Right.

[474] Yeah.

[475] Yeah, that's kind of the fuel for it.

[476] The last distinction I'll make, too, is like, when I'm on Colbert, so I did tell a story about my daughter on Colbert the last time I was on.

[477] Yeah.

[478] It feels a little stickier to me. Yeah.

[479] Because a couple things.

[480] One, I'm there to sell something.

[481] Right.

[482] Clearly, I was there in that case to sell a game show.

[483] And then, secondly, a whole audience that's not per se my audience is watching.

[484] No one turned on to see Dak Sheppard on Colbert.

[485] They just like Colbert and then I happen to be there.

[486] So I don't know if they know my intentions or anything about me. So, and now I'm telling the story.

[487] about my daughter might seem exploitive.

[488] I don't know, you know.

[489] Right.

[490] Yeah.

[491] I mean, oh, the problems of us movies.

[492] It just hit me. No, no, no, no. That's not true.

[493] Social media is a problem for everyone.

[494] That's exactly right.

[495] And this picture putting up in kids and all of, because I followed this one person and who puts a lot of pictures up of her child.

[496] And then we were at a restaurant and I saw her kid.

[497] And I didn't see her.

[498] She wasn't around.

[499] Her kid was clearly with other friends or something.

[500] I saw her.

[501] And I was like, I know that's this person's kid because of social media.

[502] Yike.

[503] Like, I don't think I should know that.

[504] Yeah.

[505] You know?

[506] Pictures on social media is, you're right, it's not limited to people who are in movies.

[507] The other thing to consider with pictures of kids on social media.

[508] And again, this isn't to judge.

[509] To judge anybody who puts pictures of their kids on social media, everybody does do it.

[510] But one thing I think people aren't yet aware of enough.

[511] is that in the future, it's already happening, but in the future, it's going to get way more advanced.

[512] Algorithms are going to recognize the faces of kids.

[513] And those algorithms are going to match patterns with data they have on billions of other kids.

[514] And those algorithms are going to pass down judgments on your kids, like whether they should be able to get an insurance policy or whether they should get a certain job or whether they like, like, like of every picture of them as a kid was at McDonald's, the insurers are like, I'm passing.

[515] Yeah.

[516] It's like, it's stuff that makes sense like that.

[517] And then it's mostly, though, it's stuff that no human could even make sense of.

[518] They're these black box algorithms that just you put billions of people's of data into them.

[519] And then the computers find patterns.

[520] Right.

[521] And humans can't even understand the meaning of those patterns.

[522] Right.

[523] But then the black box sort of spits out, okay, we can predict with 80 % blah, blah, blah, blah, that this person is going to blah, blah, blah, because they match who the fuck knows what, match things that don't seem relevant at all, but just probabilistically, it tends to work out.

[524] And this is how Facebook makes their money.

[525] This is how Cambridge Analytica work, but it's not just Cambridge Analytica.

[526] This is how Facebook is so effective at serving ads to people.

[527] Yeah.

[528] It's doing this kind of pattern matching.

[529] And so that is one thing that I think is worth sort of spreading that, like, you're feeding this machine that's going to get smarter and smarter than us.

[530] Yeah.

[531] Yes.

[532] So that of course is like the glass half empty version of it.

[533] And I'm with you.

[534] That's where my mind goes to.

[535] But there is some other, imagine this.

[536] The computer notices that kids that wear Nike shoes and eat at Sizzler and get this grade in school, blah, blah, blah.

[537] 85 % of them OD at 26.

[538] Yeah.

[539] I want that data.

[540] Like, oh wow, thanks for figuring out my kids in some pattern I would have never seen.

[541] Yeah.

[542] Or the Are there 89 % likely to commit suicide?

[543] Wow.

[544] Thanks for the heads up.

[545] I'll get on this.

[546] I totally agree with you.

[547] And I'm so glad you said that because I don't want to come off as if I'm demonizing this technology.

[548] The question is what's the tech going to be used for?

[549] Yes.

[550] And how is what's the business model?

[551] Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[552] What's up guys?

[553] It's your girl Kiki.

[554] And my podcast is back with a new season.

[555] and let me tell you, it's too good.

[556] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[557] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[558] And I don't mean just friends.

[559] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[560] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[561] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[562] We've all been there.

[563] Turning to the Internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rink.

[564] ashes.

[565] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[566] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[567] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[568] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[569] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[570] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[571] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[572] We're in the era where I happen to read the Cornelius Vanderbilt biography, which is phenomenal.

[573] And before anything was regulated, these steamboat captains, they all wanted a monopoly on the routes, right?

[574] So they would race each other.

[575] And numerous times they collided.

[576] and killed like 130 people because there's no no one's watching over them and it's just that's the market completely at its own yeah and so that's kind of where we're at right now it's like people are smashing big paddle boats into each other right it's exactly right we're in that kind of age where this is revolutionary technology and we're just at the beginning of it and it's not well understood or regulated yet yeah and it moves so fast and legislation moves so slow it can't keep up with it at all.

[577] Right.

[578] Well, it wasn't until what, the 19, whatever it was, that we go like, hey, our environment.

[579] It looked at the air and the water.

[580] They've been running, you know, steam engines and stuff since the 18, whatever it is.

[581] Yeah.

[582] My history is not accurate enough.

[583] Yeah, 1840s -ish.

[584] It's been a hundred or so years or something that we've been really damaging the environment with this technology and it took us that long to say, like, oh, wait a minute.

[585] We didn't even think of this.

[586] Yeah.

[587] You know, I thought, so this show is generally apolitical because I want everyone to be able to listen.

[588] Yeah, that's great.

[589] But one issue I did think, I thought of analogy, doing things for the sake of improving them, I don't think should be a left or right issue.

[590] So the example I thought of the other day is 5G is coming, right?

[591] 5G is coming.

[592] It's going to be trillions of dollars of business for many companies.

[593] Imagine if there was a wing of the government that was trying to protect 4G.

[594] Yeah.

[595] No, we must protect 4G.

[596] We don't want 5G.

[597] I mean, that in essence is like the notion that we're going to get like that we're subsidizing coal.

[598] Yeah, it's just like there's a better, cooler, cleaner, faster.

[599] Everything about it will be better.

[600] Why aren't we like look at it like 5G?

[601] The government should be looking out for all these people who've worked in the coal industry for all this time.

[602] Oh, yeah.

[603] The government should be looking out for those people.

[604] The best way to look out for, it would seem to me, and I say this coming from a play.

[605] I don't know that much detail about how the coal industry.

[606] By the way, none of us do.

[607] It's a political talking point that no one.

[608] But it's a technology that's older.

[609] There are better technologies.

[610] That's what the government ought to be doing rather than saying let's make sure that we can keep going with this old technology is let's make sure that all the people that have earned their livings for generations working with this technology have a good path towards working with something new.

[611] And we've lived through this cycle now 30 times that we didn't try to protect wagon wheel makers' jobs.

[612] We just embraced the automobile, and that created way more jobs than the wagon wheel companies we're creating.

[613] So it's just an inevitable.

[614] Okay, back to you.

[615] You're one of the few people, I think you're a minority, of actors that work that grew up in Los Angeles.

[616] Right.

[617] A lot of actors are not L .A. natives, it's true.

[618] Yeah.

[619] And you're actually kind of third generation, right?

[620] your grandfather was a director.

[621] That's right.

[622] So he wasn't born here.

[623] That's my mom's dad, Michael Gordon.

[624] Yeah, he was a filmmaker.

[625] He directed.

[626] Where was he born?

[627] In Baltimore.

[628] Oh, okay, okay.

[629] And then his parents, all of my great -grandparents are born in Eastern Europe.

[630] And that was a generation that they were all like Slavic, Eastern Europe, Russian, Polish, Lithuanian, Jews.

[631] They all moved to the States.

[632] So all four of my - During World War II?

[633] They were the lucky ones.

[634] that left in time.

[635] Uh -huh, yes.

[636] And the extended families of my grandparents, you know, weren't so lucky.

[637] Right.

[638] So all four of my grandparents were born here, I mean, in the United States.

[639] And then two of my grandparents actually grew up here in L .A. On my dad's side, they grew up in Boyle Heights.

[640] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[641] In South Central L .A., which at the time were Jewish ghettos.

[642] At that time, actually, there was a...

[643] sort of like redlining but for Jews could only redlining redlining is it's about ownership of housing redlining was the rules about only white people were allowed to own houses outside of these red lines and so people of color were only allowed to own houses within these red lines right and Jews were included in that few generations ago uh -huh depending on where you look in l .A there were certain places where jews could have houses and boil high and South Central L .A. were a couple of them.

[644] So that's where my dad's parents grew up.

[645] So, yeah, in a way, I do feel like a third generation, Angelina, my grandpa grew up, you know, taking the red line.

[646] Yeah.

[647] When there was public transportation, I mean, there is some now, but, like, it was a more common thing.

[648] Back when Western was actually the Western edge.

[649] Oh, wow.

[650] Yeah.

[651] Right.

[652] Now Western is a street here in L .A. that's actually quite far to the east of what we now consider L .A. Yeah.

[653] And then, you know, he remembers when the Dodgers arrived.

[654] Uh -huh.

[655] And he was a big director, right?

[656] He directed...

[657] Serenot de Bergerac and Pillow Talk is maybe...

[658] Pillow Talk, yeah.

[659] I was actually just talking about my dad's dad.

[660] My mom's dad is who you're talking about, Michael Gordon, as opposed to Milton Levitt.

[661] And he was a successful director.

[662] And then he was blacklisted, actually.

[663] Yes, I read that.

[664] That's fascinating.

[665] Yeah.

[666] So he was a Pinko Kami, Scott.

[667] Exactly, two.

[668] Yeah, three strides.

[669] Really, he had been to some meetings.

[670] Right, right.

[671] Anybody in the film industry who had been to some meetings about, you know, like, hey, what can we do about poverty?

[672] What you're, you know.

[673] Yeah, yeah.

[674] How dare they?

[675] Was put on this list that the government enforced that you weren't allowed to work.

[676] And it's a dark moment in American history.

[677] One of the really subtle weirdnesses of that whole McCarthy thing, is these folks, generally that were blacklisted, I mean, they are fucking capitalists.

[678] They are benefiting big time from capitalism.

[679] Yeah.

[680] And so this notion that they wanted to live on a commune, maybe just a little bit extreme.

[681] It might have been an extreme painting of their position.

[682] Yeah, I mean, so my grandpa died when I was 10.

[683] So I never really got to have a conversation with him about this.

[684] Right.

[685] I would have loved to.

[686] I'd be curious to see what exactly.

[687] he was a proponent of right i don't think he would have been in favor of ussr style communism right it's the debate that we're still he probably had some socialist viewpoints that got that got framed as communism that the government could be doing more to help the less fortunate perhaps right there's there's a valid debate on both sides like is the government the one that will be effective at doing that i understand like i i grew up a lefty and i consider myself pretty strongly left -leaning, but I do think it's worth having those discussions left and right.

[688] And I do think there's valid points on both sides.

[689] And I'm not talking about the sort of culture wars or Charlottesville good people on both sides, whatever.

[690] I don't think either side has a monopoly on all good ideas.

[691] Yeah.

[692] And especially when what you're talking about is how are we actually implementing policy for the government?

[693] So much of the red tribe and the blue tribe nowadays isn't really have anything to do with policy.

[694] Doesn't have it.

[695] It doesn't really have to do with socialism or capitalism and it has to do with like do I like you or do I not like it's identity shit yeah so and I don't know how much of it back then when my grandpa was blacklisted how much of it was identity shit versus how much of it was you know the specific policies is probably was some of both I guess I don't know yeah so did mom grow up with means or did he become broke as a result of that blacklisting yeah they had to move out of L .A. Oh really?

[696] They went back east So where my grandpa's brother was working and he worked with my great -uncle budgie.

[697] Yeah, they didn't have that much money back.

[698] What a shift.

[699] Yeah.

[700] Oh, my goodness.

[701] Having gotten to do the thing that you love more than anything.

[702] And also, you and I both knowing what a special job that is.

[703] Yeah.

[704] To then return to, you know, something you're not passionate about.

[705] It's just a big shift.

[706] Because the government said you're not allowed anymore because you went to some media.

[707] Ironically, yeah.

[708] What I would assume about you is just the fact that you have a hyphenated name on your birth certificate, mom's a baller right mom is mom's a tough 70s progressive yeah a bad motherfucker yeah yeah yeah i think that's fair to say jordan you were born in 81 yeah that is not a very common thing for people to hyphenate a child's last name in 81 in 1981 yeah i guess that's true and she ran for congress at one point in the 70s did yeah in choice she learned no lesson from her dad right because she was like the freedom the peace and peace and freedom party yeah being very late.

[709] She was like, bring it back on it.

[710] I'm going back at it.

[711] Yeah, no, it's true.

[712] Yeah, my, my mom and dad met as political activists.

[713] They actually were both working at KPFK, which is a radio station that still exists here in L .A. It's like public radio.

[714] And your dad was a news director.

[715] Yeah.

[716] Yeah, she was in charge of the newsletter at KPFK, which at that time, the newsletter of a radio station was a bigger thing than it's become, you know, nowadays.

[717] Yeah.

[718] Yeah.

[719] So she ran the newsletter for KPFK, and he was the news director at KPFK, and that's where they met.

[720] And they found love.

[721] Yeah.

[722] And then they had two boys.

[723] Yeah.

[724] And now here's where, again, there'll be a lot of projecting, because I have a brother who's five years older than me. Yeah, my brother's six and a half years old.

[725] Right.

[726] And so did you grow up with the mild chip on your shoulder of I'm not a baby?

[727] Oh, interesting.

[728] I feel like the chip on my shoulder was I'm not a loser, actually, because my brother would beat me at everything.

[729] So maybe that's similar to I'm not a baby.

[730] Now, did you guys have the kind of relationship where sometimes you were his best friend, other times you were just way too young?

[731] Yeah, 100%.

[732] There was still a rivalry until then he moved out.

[733] Right.

[734] I was like 12 and he was 18.

[735] Mm -hmm.

[736] And from that point on, I was just always so happy to see him.

[737] Right.

[738] And I think he was pretty happy to see me too.

[739] We were close throughout living together when we were growing up too.

[740] But definitely once he moved out, he was just.

[741] And then that was also right as I was entering.

[742] puberty.

[743] I was 12.

[744] He was 18.

[745] He had a girlfriend.

[746] Sure.

[747] Oh, my God.

[748] Like, you have a girlfriend.

[749] What's that going to be like to have a girlfriend?

[750] You know, these kinds of that is when I started to have that relationship with him.

[751] And he, he embraced and enjoyed the role of being a mentor to you?

[752] Yeah, I think so.

[753] Like, I remember him showing me out a shave and whatever.

[754] Like, uh -huh.

[755] He was the one who, like, did that.

[756] Who of mom and dad was the more artsy mom was?

[757] Yeah, for sure.

[758] Yeah.

[759] Dad, like, if I had to be reductionist about it.

[760] And it is reductionist.

[761] I would say I owe whatever taste I have probably to my mom and whatever like work ethic I have to my dad.

[762] Right.

[763] Right.

[764] Yeah.

[765] That makes sense.

[766] You and your brother, the most eerily similar looking brothers I've ever seen separated by six years, like to the point where you're like, could they have done IVF back then and the egg split?

[767] And you guys are identical.

[768] And you saved it for a few years?

[769] Yeah.

[770] Because when I saw a picture of him yesterday, I was like, I literally thought, oh, you had a phase where you had dreadlocks, which I had in high school.

[771] I was like, this is a rare thing.

[772] Yeah, it's really funny.

[773] We didn't look so much alike when we were young.

[774] That's the funny thing.

[775] Oh, really?

[776] Yeah, and it wasn't until we got older that I think we started really looking alike.

[777] And I remember actually the moment when people started asking me who was older, which was such a trip.

[778] Oh, yeah.

[779] Such a fundamental part of my understanding of who my brother was is that he was older than me. Right.

[780] Quite a bit old.

[781] Six and a half years older.

[782] It's the first thing you think of probably.

[783] Yeah, my older brother.

[784] Yeah.

[785] A big brother.

[786] Right.

[787] And when people started saying like, so wait, who's the older one?

[788] I'd be like, what?

[789] You can't tell.

[790] He's my big brother.

[791] All right.

[792] Right.

[793] And you grew up in the Valley, right?

[794] Were there any sports you were into?

[795] Because you have kind of a sweet physique, if you don't mind me, complimenting you.

[796] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[797] Yeah.

[798] It's real nice.

[799] It's very gymnastic in.

[800] I did a lot of gymnastics.

[801] You did.

[802] You learned that.

[803] I didn't learn that.

[804] You just said it's very gymnastic without.

[805] Really?

[806] Yes.

[807] I didn't know.

[808] I believe you.

[809] You've proven your time.

[810] Oh, I will tell.

[811] I know.

[812] I can tell.

[813] You're very forthcoming.

[814] Yeah, no, I did do gymnastics.

[815] And quite a few team sports, you know, the baseball and flag football, didn't play tackle football.

[816] Well, good.

[817] It's probably now in retrospect.

[818] Yeah, I wanted to, and my parents wouldn't let me. They were so ahead of their time.

[819] I'm hyphenating and they knew somehow about CTE before anyone did.

[820] Yeah.

[821] Are they fucking warlocks?

[822] Are they clairvoyance?

[823] You started in musical theater at like four years old.

[824] You joined a little club, right?

[825] And we were in the Wizard of Oz.

[826] Yeah.

[827] So obviously, you probably don't have any memories where you weren't acting and stuff.

[828] Right.

[829] And then the retelling of Wizard of Oz led to you starting to do commercials, right?

[830] That's right.

[831] Boy, did you end up with some of the brands of the 80s?

[832] Like when I read the list, oh.

[833] Oh, he had a peanut butter campaign, kind of a no -name peanut, what was the peanut butter?

[834] Sunny Jim, yeah.

[835] Yeah, I'd never heard of Sunny Jim.

[836] Some, like, local brand of peanut butter.

[837] Cocoa Puffs?

[838] Oh, that's a good get.

[839] Pop -Tarts?

[840] Oh, wow.

[841] Yeah, Kenny Shoes?

[842] I don't know Kenny's shoes.

[843] That was a very 80s thing.

[844] Like, really?

[845] Yeah.

[846] So a couple of things I immediately.

[847] Don't forget sizzler.

[848] Oh, you did a sizzler.

[849] I fucking love sizzling.

[850] Wow.

[851] No doubt.

[852] I will eat more chicken wings from.

[853] that buffet than any one human should.

[854] To me it's the shrimp though, the fried shrimp.

[855] Good for you.

[856] You're getting into the seafood.

[857] I won't fuck with the seafood.

[858] I think the reason that I eventually grew to be able to eat seafood was because of Sizzler fried shrimp.

[859] Sure, sure.

[860] Oh, fried, yes.

[861] Oh, yeah.

[862] I was picturing you eating like raw shrimp with cocktail.

[863] Yes, from Sizzler and I got scared.

[864] Wait, how old were you when you got like Pop -Tarts and stuff?

[865] When I did a Pop -Tarts commercial I was probably like 10 or 11 or something like that.

[866] It's perfect age to do Pop -Tart commercial.

[867] Pop -Tarts was a miserable experience.

[868] It was.

[869] Yeah.

[870] Tell me why.

[871] Well, so I never liked acting in commercials.

[872] You didn't.

[873] No, I, from a young age, and maybe this is some of what you're getting at with, like, how I relate to the job or something.

[874] I want to get back to that.

[875] I'm curious to hear from your perspective what that's like.

[876] But from a young age, I was pretty precious about acting and, like, really believe.

[877] in it and was kind of serious about it even at age nine what did you want to be in like et or something like did you have something in rain man you wanted to be in rain man okay okay you wanted them to add a child role yeah yeah yeah Dustin hoppin he has an autistic kid yeah yeah yeah bring him out so I didn't like acting in commercials because in commercials it's not what I would have called real acting with quotes around it like very heightened yeah heightened is now I've come to understand that there are a wide variety of different kinds of acting and in fact if you look at Laurence Olivier, for example, he's not being realistic either.

[878] But when I was younger, to me, realism was real acting.

[879] And then if you were acting in a way that wasn't like real people behave, then that was kind of phony and felt bad to me. And commercials was all about like, oh, hey, you got time for Kellogg's Pop -Tarts.

[880] And you have a big fake smile on your face and I didn't like it.

[881] Did mom or dad, did they have a love for film or acting?

[882] Mom did.

[883] Yeah.

[884] Okay, so do you think maybe in some way or like you wanted to make mom happy or?

[885] I don't know if it was, I wouldn't think of it as I wanted to make mom happy.

[886] I mean, I'm sure there is some of that.

[887] But I think she illuminated for me the pleasures of being, I guess you could say, an artist.

[888] Right, expressing some kind of true emotion.

[889] There was also a really important person that I would probably think of first when it comes to my early views of what acting is that I still have and his name's Kevin McDermott.

[890] He was an acting teacher.

[891] I never studied acting other than I did several years of classes with Kevin McDermott.

[892] I don't think he's teaching anymore.

[893] But he was a brilliant, brilliant guy.

[894] And he taught kids, but he didn't treat us like kids.

[895] Right.

[896] He didn't use words like the Stanislavski method or thing.

[897] He didn't say that.

[898] So like when I speak to educated actors.

[899] I never went to any kind of training.

[900] MFA program.

[901] Yeah, I didn't do any of that.

[902] But when I speak to educated actors, they'll say things and I'll be like, I don't know that term.

[903] And then they'll explain what it is.

[904] I'm like, oh yeah, Kevin taught us that.

[905] Right.

[906] Like sense memory or something.

[907] Yeah.

[908] And you go, oh, yeah, I guess, yeah, I do know that.

[909] I just don't know the title.

[910] Exactly.

[911] Yeah.

[912] Yeah.

[913] But so Kevin was so good at like teaching us about having a character that's different than yourself and what it means to imagine.

[914] what if you felt differently than you feel?

[915] What if you're not just your name is something different, but what if, you know, this thing that you really like, what if you didn't like it?

[916] Yeah.

[917] That's such a great plasticity to put into a kid's head, period, just forcing yourself to, yeah, imagine a different set of emotions and all that.

[918] That's a road to empathy, basically.

[919] Exactly.

[920] Well, and that's what acting really kind of comes down to is being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes, being able to take your perspective and twist it into a different perspective.

[921] Yeah, yeah, or just hit pause on it for a second.

[922] So, Monica, put your seatbelt on.

[923] I'm excited.

[924] Do you know that one of Joe's first movies was A River Runs Through It?

[925] Really?

[926] He played young Norman.

[927] Yeah.

[928] Not Pitt's character, unfortunately.

[929] The kid who wasn't Brad Pitt.

[930] This is where I discover Brad Pitt.

[931] And I see this fucking angel.

[932] And I go...

[933] He's obsessed.

[934] Oh, wow.

[935] Now I know exactly who I want to be.

[936] A couple questions about that.

[937] Did you have a sense of who Robert Redford was at 10 years old?

[938] Did you understand who you were working with?

[939] Did it have any kind of weight?

[940] I mean, my mom told me. I mean, I didn't grow up with those movies.

[941] I think I watched The Natural.

[942] Oh, sure, sure.

[943] And in fact, it was a funny thing because that was his rap gift to me and to the kid who played young Brad Pitt.

[944] because I played young Craig Schaeffer and this kid named Van Gravage, who was just, he hadn't acted before.

[945] He was a local kid from Montana and he was hired to play young Brad Pitt.

[946] And Mr. Redford gave us these two bats that were the bats from the natural with the lightning ball on it.

[947] That was like his rap gift to us.

[948] I was going to say, have you managed to hang on to that?

[949] I'm bad at hanging on to things.

[950] I'm sure I have it somewhere.

[951] Yeah.

[952] I actually just found a whole bunch of old stuff that I had.

[953] hadn't seen in like 20 years.

[954] I have a very pack radish habit.

[955] Nature.

[956] Yeah, I have a lot of You like collect things.

[957] Like, things that aren't even collectible.

[958] Like, this receipt will remind me that I've had this sandwich when I was, I have trouble throwing it away.

[959] Oh, I just have to have one question I forgot to ask about the commercials.

[960] I already know you hate them, but I just imagine myself being like seven.

[961] And like, you were in a Pop -Tarts commercial.

[962] That's great.

[963] we everyone loves pop tarts but like kinney shoes that was kind of like a more of uh like at the mall it wasn't foot locker so i just wondered within the commercial world to be like i want a fucking legos commercial i don't want like was there a hierarchy of commercials at that age just because of the products you thought were cool that's really funny no because i was just going on tons and tons of auditions and it was just thrilled to get apart all a blur and also that the other thing if we're going to talk about commercials again the other story to tell is that the reason that I did that Pop -Tarts commercial and that Cocoa Puffs commercial, those two in particular, was because at that time in my life, like I said, I hated doing commercials, but you could make a lot of money.

[964] Yeah, especially back then.

[965] Yeah.

[966] Like your Pop -Tarts commercial probably ran for two, three years.

[967] Probably, yeah, something like that.

[968] It could be a lot of money.

[969] And while, you know, my dad made a good living and we were like, you know, a comfortable middle class life, making that kind of money was still like a really impactful thing.

[970] like, hey, you could pay for your whole college if you do a couple of these commercials.

[971] I'm so glad to hear you say this because I've interviewed several people now that were child actors.

[972] And I'm always like, were you aware of the fact that you're making, you know, like $100 ,000 a year as a child?

[973] I feel like I would have been so aware of that and like stoked.

[974] Yeah.

[975] Feeling safe because of it.

[976] Well, a lot of kids end up having to, you know, support their family.

[977] Yes.

[978] And I think that's really hard.

[979] And I wouldn't say it's wrong because that's the right thing for certain families.

[980] but I'm grateful that that wasn't the position that I was in.

[981] Right.

[982] Yeah, that's a big burden.

[983] Yeah, it was never put to me as like, hey, you're helping support this family.

[984] Yeah.

[985] It was always, if you like doing this, then we'll support you doing it.

[986] Joey, your father needs a colonoscopy, and we just can't afford it.

[987] He might have polyps and die if you don't book this Coca -Cola spot.

[988] Exactly.

[989] So it wasn't that, but at the same time, they were like, yeah, but it's worth appreciating the value of this money.

[990] And so we understand that you don't want to do these, but you could pay for your college if you do them.

[991] So if you do two national commercials, you can buy anything you want.

[992] They like break out a percentage of which you were allowed to be in charge of?

[993] Yeah, well, I did get like a very small amount of money into like my own personal bank account.

[994] Uh -huh.

[995] It was like basically instead of an allowance, whereas like other kids get an allowance, I didn't get an allowance, but I got your own money back.

[996] I actually was.

[997] It was something like, No, it was something really small, though.

[998] It was something like $5 a day, something like that for every day that I worked.

[999] Right.

[1000] Just so that, like, you got a sense of, like, you do this work, you make some money.

[1001] And then you can buy a Genesis game with, you know, you go to the bank and you can draw out your $60 that you made.

[1002] Oh, it's so fun, isn't it?

[1003] Yeah.

[1004] So for the case of these two commercials, they're like, you could buy anything you want.

[1005] Uh -huh.

[1006] And what did you buy?

[1007] I bought Street Fighter 2.

[1008] Ah!

[1009] The Arcadia game.

[1010] Oh.

[1011] Oh.

[1012] Oh, wow.

[1013] Okay.

[1014] Not the...

[1015] Oh, good.

[1016] I'm glad you went on that.

[1017] Yeah.

[1018] Anything you want.

[1019] I literally was on the verge of going, oh, that's so funny because my first job to tasseling corn, I bought some Nintendo game.

[1020] Yeah.

[1021] And I was, in my mind, I was like, oh, where this...

[1022] And then I was like, oh, this fucking arcade version.

[1023] Well, there's a little bit before, because, yeah, and I remember being all pissed when it came out on Super Nintendo and really snobby about it, too.

[1024] It was like, it's not the same as we're playing with the joystick.

[1025] It's just, not as responsive, which is just me being bitter that I would lose to people when I was playing them on Super Nintendo.

[1026] Was there a line of kids out your front door trying to play this stand -up video game?

[1027] I feel like that would have made you know the most popular guy in town.

[1028] I was pretty, I was sort of secretive about it.

[1029] I do remember one like play date with a kid that I probably wouldn't have normally had a play date with like a popular kid.

[1030] Sure, sure.

[1031] Who was like, let's hang out.

[1032] And I was like, oh, you want to come over to my house?

[1033] Okay.

[1034] And then we played street fire the whole time.

[1035] I was like, wait a minute.

[1036] Oh, I was just admitting to this the other day that I had, I mean, this is shameless, but whatever, I was seven and eight years old.

[1037] I hung on with so many different kids because they had like a four -wheeler or any kind of off -road vehicle because I didn't have any of them.

[1038] I'd fucking put up with anybody to be around some snowmobiles or some fucking an odyssey.

[1039] Oh, okay.

[1040] You get angels in the outfield.

[1041] I just can't help but be obsessed with what is it like to be in grade school in some of the kids have seen your pop times.

[1042] commercial or certainly now when we get into angels and outfield there's going to be a ton of your classmates that see that yeah i can see it going either way a like we all want approval and attention and that could be great and then also we're very self -conscious at that age and to be stared at might be really uncomfortable so i don't know which way and probably for different people it went different ways but for you to have gotten that movie what was that like i mean i loved doing the movie as far as how the other kids or or other people in general would relate to me. It actually gave me a lot of anxiety for people to think of me as special in that way.

[1043] Or, oh, you're famous, you're a star, you're...

[1044] And I totally understand how it's counterintuitive to hear what I'm saying.

[1045] Like, why wouldn't you want people to say, hey, you're famous, hey, you're a star?

[1046] Wouldn't that be great?

[1047] Yeah.

[1048] I don't know that I could break down exactly why it gave me anxiety, but it really did.

[1049] Weirdly, I totally desired the adoration of strangers.

[1050] I wanted to walk into places and people be excited I'm there.

[1051] I very much desired that.

[1052] What I had underestimated is I am also a control freak and it inherently takes away a lot of my control.

[1053] You couldn't choose to glide through the hallway and get into your home at class in a manner in which that you could have control over.

[1054] Now there's this other variable that is much too big to control.

[1055] And for me, it was just kind of that loss of control, which I desire so deeply.

[1056] Yeah, that's interesting.

[1057] I think that probably does have to do with it.

[1058] And I also have a desire for that kind of control about my life and about what people think of me probably.

[1059] Sure.

[1060] And maybe it is when you meet someone and their perception of you is sort of predefined.

[1061] Now, I don't get to really define myself for myself.

[1062] You're going to assume things about me because you've seen me in a movie.

[1063] And again, some of those assumptions might be flattering.

[1064] I don't know.

[1065] it would give me a lot of discomfort and I would go so far as to like just fully lie about it when people would say hey you're like blah blah blah I wouldn't even say no I'm not I would be much more convincing a liar about it right play dumb like wait what what are you talking about it yeah no no no it's not like I would really go way out of my way to try to not be that person I imagine I can explain some of your moves then going forward as your desire to reclaim your identity identity or for you to define your identity and not anyone else.

[1066] Right, right.

[1067] I just have to imagine going to college at that point maybe ultimately is in the recipe.

[1068] 100%.

[1069] Yeah.

[1070] And then I quit acting.

[1071] Right.

[1072] Because I was on Third Rock from the Sun.

[1073] They let me out a year early.

[1074] I was already a year older than most first years.

[1075] Okay.

[1076] Because I was 19.

[1077] So you actually quit that show to go?

[1078] They did their sixth season while I did my first year of college.

[1079] Oh, my goodness.

[1080] Okay.

[1081] So really quick, let's speed through catching.

[1082] up to there so you do angels in the outfield that's a big movie clearly now you're dealing with a whole new thing and then now you get out of a show that's in everyone's house in your you what 15 to 21 you're on that show uh 13 to 19 13 to 19 now was it like no one's ever going to take me serious if i don't go get this actual accolade or if i don't accomplish this thing no one all ever take me serious is that part of the motivation or just pure desire to be normal quote normal i think more that yeah just be a normal dude that would be going to college at this point doing what all my peers were doing at that time and doing a thing that I'd been looking forward to for as long as I could remember, going to college.

[1083] Yeah.

[1084] Moving out of the house and going to college.

[1085] I mean, that was just such a glorified thing.

[1086] I really wanted to experience that.

[1087] Yeah.

[1088] That age of your life, you're like really trying on your identity as an adult.

[1089] Yeah.

[1090] All these things.

[1091] And I'm just thinking, what is that layer like of you arrive in, you're already self -conscious, as we all are at 19?

[1092] and then certainly some significant percentage of that campus knows who you are.

[1093] Right.

[1094] How did that play out?

[1095] Was it an asset?

[1096] Was it a liability or was it both?

[1097] People were pretty good about not pegging me to that.

[1098] I got to say.

[1099] They probably knew that I didn't want that.

[1100] Yeah.

[1101] And just, I guess, politely respecting it.

[1102] I got to hand it to the kids in my class.

[1103] And I also just was not going to let myself be defined that way.

[1104] Right.

[1105] I wasn't going to give up the experience.

[1106] of like, here I am.

[1107] I'm in New York because I went to Columbia.

[1108] I moved to New York City, which is I'd always wanted to live in New York City ever since the first time I ever visited that town when I was 12.

[1109] And I'm here in New York.

[1110] I'm going to do my thing.

[1111] I'm going to, you know, dress loud and be blah.

[1112] And I had a blast.

[1113] I loved going to God.

[1114] And I love, honestly, I love living in New York.

[1115] Stay tuned for more armchair experts, if you dare.

[1116] Okay, so you do four years there, roughly?

[1117] No, I dropped out.

[1118] Well, I know you dropped out, but I thought you were still there for quite a while.

[1119] I kind of thought you maybe dropped out at the finish line.

[1120] Like, stop for a water 10 feet from the finish line.

[1121] That's funny.

[1122] And they got distracted.

[1123] See, I went in the fall of 2000, and I dropped out in like 2002, I think.

[1124] That was there for like two and a half years.

[1125] And is that because you were like, okay, I got the experience.

[1126] I got the thing I wanted.

[1127] Yeah, it was that.

[1128] And in particular, I got my first copy of Final Cut Pro.

[1129] Oh, sure.

[1130] Video editing software.

[1131] Oh, I remember my girlfriend got it for me for Christmas.

[1132] It was obnoxiously expensive.

[1133] Yeah.

[1134] It was my 21st birthday present to myself.

[1135] Uh -huh.

[1136] And I got my first Mac.

[1137] I had never had an Apple computer before.

[1138] Yeah.

[1139] But I got it because it had Final Cut Pro.

[1140] And I had been making little videos with the family video camera and stuff.

[1141] forever.

[1142] I'd always love doing that with my friends, but you couldn't edit.

[1143] And that was the huge, huge impediment to making a video with your friends.

[1144] If you're 10 years old and trying to like make a chase scene, you can't edit.

[1145] You're like doing your best to hit the record button at just the right time.

[1146] Yeah, you're editing in process.

[1147] In camera.

[1148] Hey, there was a whole art to it.

[1149] I mean, there was something actually fun about it when I look back on it.

[1150] But I just - It's a fun creative box to be stuck in kind of.

[1151] That's exactly right.

[1152] But I was so desired to be able to edit what we shot.

[1153] And so finally it became sort of available to on a more consumer level.

[1154] Yeah.

[1155] And I got myself that copy of Final Cup Pro.

[1156] And that was kind of the end of college for me because I didn't want to take any classes in it.

[1157] I just learned it.

[1158] I just stayed up all night cutting things and just shooting things and cutting things and making things.

[1159] I went through the same thing you did, which is I was at the ground.

[1160] at that time in 2000 and we were doing sketches and then this fucking software came out to me movies in general were such a mystery until i got that editing software i was like oh that's what makes a movie is this this shit that you can put it together and so i started making shorts long before youtube or anything to play on the screen inside the groundlings for interstitials yeah and i just found immediately like oh that's what i'm really passionate about i love how much you can fuck with it all yes after the fact that's exactly it yeah it's the ultimate puzzle.

[1161] so fun.

[1162] That it is.

[1163] It's where you make the movie.

[1164] And especially because I've been not only making these, you know, videos with the family video camera, I've been acting in stuff.

[1165] Right.

[1166] And when you're acting in stuff, you put all of yourself into this performance and then you totally relinquished control of it and hand it over to someone else to assemble.

[1167] And the editor really has just about as much to do with the performance the audience sees as the actor does.

[1168] Yo, totally.

[1169] And so to finally have all of that power, all of that control, like, I can make the thing that I want to make.

[1170] Yes.

[1171] I kind of knew, like, all right, I, this is what I want to do.

[1172] Because I had gone to college thinking, like, maybe I don't want to be an actor or be a filmmaker or be in show business.

[1173] Maybe I want to be something totally else.

[1174] And I want to give myself that opportunity to discover that actually I'm going to be something else because I don't want the decision I made when I was six years old to be an actor to necessarily be the defining point of my entire life.

[1175] Now that I'm 19, let's like, let's re -examine this.

[1176] Let's see.

[1177] That was the other reason I wanted to go to college.

[1178] But once I got that Final Cup program, I was like, nope, this is it.

[1179] I know this is what I want to do.

[1180] And I'm just going to get back into it.

[1181] Right.

[1182] Now, I say this as someone that's the exact same.

[1183] So there is zero judgment in this.

[1184] But I was, at first, I wasn't going to college.

[1185] I was going to live in a Kerouac book.

[1186] That's it.

[1187] I was going to be a Kerouac.

[1188] And so that's what I was going to be.

[1189] And then all of a sudden I was going to be a writer and I fucking submitted shit, blah, blah, when I hear you say that, I think to myself, who am I talking to?

[1190] Yeah.

[1191] You know what I'm saying?

[1192] Like, who am I showing that I'm living in a carouac?

[1193] That's a good question.

[1194] And I try to put my finger on like, who was I trying to impress?

[1195] I feel like it would be helpful if I knew like, oh, it's my brother.

[1196] I'm trying to show my brother this or my mom or my dad.

[1197] But I don't think it's those three.

[1198] Maybe it's just a generalized, like, I don't know.

[1199] It's just interesting.

[1200] For me, it's all of those people, but it's all those people.

[1201] people adding up back to me. Yeah, yeah.

[1202] It's who do I want to be?

[1203] Who do I want to think of when I think of myself?

[1204] Yeah, yeah, I get that.

[1205] Wait, real quick, just because I'm curious.

[1206] What was your major?

[1207] I dropped out right before having to declare a major.

[1208] Oh, got it.

[1209] I would have been French.

[1210] By that time, I was studying all in French.

[1211] Yeah, he's a Francophile.

[1212] And you speak French, right?

[1213] A little bit, yeah.

[1214] Have you had the pleasure of, like, going to Paris and just, like, talking to people in French?

[1215] Yeah, and oftentimes they'll speak back to you.

[1216] English, in Paris, especially.

[1217] You got to go to, like, Geneva or to, you know, the south of France.

[1218] Like, if people are less impatient and also easier to understand, Parisians speak really quick.

[1219] Yeah.

[1220] This is very name droppery, but I just got to say it.

[1221] It's the closest I've ever seen to a friend take flight, which is I one time was with Bradley Cooper in Paris, and he's like, hey, I got to do this talk show tonight.

[1222] You want to come?

[1223] I'm like, yeah, I'll go.

[1224] And by God, it was a fucking comedy talk show.

[1225] Yeah.

[1226] And he's, he's like, man, I don't know, people are laughing and he's laughing on.

[1227] And I'm like, he is a superpower.

[1228] Like, it's one thing to just go be on Charlie Rose and speak another language and just say, but he's cracking jokes and he knows the cadences and everything.

[1229] And I was like, this is mind -blowing.

[1230] This may be the most impressive thing I've seen him do.

[1231] Fuck that guy.

[1232] Yeah, a fine piece of shit.

[1233] Gorgeous piece of shit.

[1234] All right.

[1235] So this isn't a conversation.

[1236] Just, I think it's really funny in 2007.

[1237] You were in a movie called Lookout in your character.

[1238] character's name was Chris Pratt.

[1239] Yeah, that is pretty funny.

[1240] Which is really funny now, because that would now be like playing Harrison Ford.

[1241] Your character's name is Harrison Ford.

[1242] It just couldn't happen now.

[1243] So that's just a fun fact.

[1244] Another fun fact along your ride.

[1245] I had, and I make no claims that I was offered this or that they wanted me. I don't even remember the details.

[1246] I just remember at one point I was given the script for 500 days of summer, and I personally just didn't understand it.

[1247] I was like, I don't think I understand that.

[1248] Yeah.

[1249] And then I got drugged to it by a girlfriend.

[1250] And I was like, my God, did I miss the boat on this?

[1251] It's just really fun sometimes when you see, like, the power of direction, the power of writing.

[1252] Sometimes it's the power of writing carries through and no one can direct it poorly.

[1253] Other times, like, that thing was in that person's head and it was executed in a way that I was like, oh, wow, I didn't see that.

[1254] Yeah, the two writers who wrote that were great and writing from a somewhat autobiographical place so that it has that sincerity.

[1255] But, yeah, Mark Webb, the director of that movie, is a fantastic director.

[1256] and he really, as they say, directed the shit out of that movie.

[1257] Yes.

[1258] And now this will be one of the two times where I was poised to not like you.

[1259] It's just, I don't know if it's going to turn out good.

[1260] And then I watch you be great in it.

[1261] And you actually make me fall in love with this thing I didn't like.

[1262] Oh, thanks.

[1263] Yeah.

[1264] So it's just kind of an extra compliment to you because you had something to overcome for me and my own ego.

[1265] Yeah.

[1266] Can I ask, you've said a few times very, you've been very flattering towards me and my work, and I'm so appreciative.

[1267] There's also, you said, oh, this guy has a different relationship to this job than I do.

[1268] I want to just understand that better because it's a funny thing amongst actors.

[1269] Very much, in my experience, know that the less I think of things competitively and the more I think of things collaboratively, the happier I am.

[1270] 100%.

[1271] It's hard not to be competitive with other actors.

[1272] I was bad at it.

[1273] I'm now, I like, I like the thing of myself as quite good at it now.

[1274] Yeah.

[1275] Now I generally am rooting for everyone to win.

[1276] I realize that that's not, it doesn't make me lose because everyone's winning.

[1277] Yeah.

[1278] And in fact, I subscribe to the idea that a rising tide lifts all ships.

[1279] So I'm there now.

[1280] Yeah.

[1281] But I was not there.

[1282] A, I was 10 years in L .A. auditioning, never made $1.

[1283] Yeah.

[1284] Then I got my foot in the door and then I did things, right?

[1285] So I'm inherently jealous at that time of someone who was on a sitcom in their teens.

[1286] Sure.

[1287] Right.

[1288] And I am like flummoxed that that person would go to college.

[1289] Not that I even knew that then.

[1290] Right.

[1291] I didn't know that to be totally honest.

[1292] But even thinking about it, I would have been like, what do you?

[1293] This guy's going to go to college now?

[1294] Like I would give anything to be.

[1295] So there is that, that like, yeah, that's there somewhere.

[1296] That's so interesting.

[1297] Yeah, I hadn't quite thought of it that way.

[1298] That makes plenty of sense.

[1299] By the way, just like that's healthy.

[1300] What is?

[1301] His point.

[1302] of you the way he's going through the world and Joe's.

[1303] Oh, yeah.

[1304] Incredibly.

[1305] Yeah, yours is on the more unhealthy side of the spectrum.

[1306] Couldn't agree more.

[1307] So I just want to make that clear in case it seems like I agree.

[1308] It's different and you've made your way towards that.

[1309] A hundred percent.

[1310] I have just now at 44 got to where Joe was at 19.

[1311] Exactly.

[1312] This is what I'm talking about.

[1313] No, it's true.

[1314] Because I feel like you're positioning me as so kind of like I don't see myself in that kind of, oh, I'm doing it right way.

[1315] But I get the feeling sometimes that maybe I give that off.

[1316] Uh -huh.

[1317] Well, there is what appears to be utter confidence in your compass.

[1318] I see.

[1319] You can see where someone would think that, right?

[1320] Right, right.

[1321] Like, you could have done Third Rock for another year, however many years.

[1322] And then you could have gone directly into another sitcom.

[1323] Like, you certainly could have done all those things.

[1324] Yeah.

[1325] And so that just is it a very common.

[1326] confident decision to make.

[1327] It's interesting.

[1328] The last thing I want to do is give off the impression like, oh, I know what's right more than other people.

[1329] Because I actually sincerely don't think that's true.

[1330] I believe you.

[1331] Yeah.

[1332] And this is all my literally sitting on the sidelines.

[1333] I don't think you're alone in this though.

[1334] Like that's maybe why I'm asking.

[1335] I feel like this like sort of feeling that you're articulating is something that I've sensed from other people.

[1336] Let's also state another obvious thing.

[1337] In the early 2000s, people didn't leave sitcoms and then become movie stars.

[1338] That really wasn't a trajectory that was known to most people.

[1339] It had happened a couple of times.

[1340] Jennifer Aniston did it.

[1341] You know, whatever.

[1342] There's been a few.

[1343] So right there, you're going like, oh, wow, this guy did something that's almost impossible to do.

[1344] So then you fill in the blanks.

[1345] How could that happen?

[1346] Good for him.

[1347] He believed that that was possible.

[1348] He had to have believed that was possible because he went and pursued it.

[1349] So, like, there's just some kind of implicit, like, oh, he must have been confident or believed in himself.

[1350] And I could be totally wrong.

[1351] I definitely had plenty of moments where I was like, fuck, I so badly want this thing.

[1352] And I'm never going to get it.

[1353] Right.

[1354] Well, especially if what the thing you wanted was Dustin Hoffman, that's almost impossible for anyone to.

[1355] Yeah.

[1356] Yeah.

[1357] If that's like the high watermark.

[1358] Well, it's impossible.

[1359] And no one will ever be.

[1360] And that's the thing.

[1361] No one will ever be anybody else.

[1362] If you compare yourself to other people, you're just ever going to get there.

[1363] I think the thing that you're touching on is that you feel that people assume that there was some calculated moves or something.

[1364] And you're like, I didn't make any calculated.

[1365] Oh, like a master plan.

[1366] It just all ended up this way.

[1367] That's true.

[1368] And it seems to people that I planned and I took a year off here and I did this.

[1369] And it was all like for reason.

[1370] And really you were just following what was in front of you.

[1371] Yeah, that's very true.

[1372] But so you look at it as like, did this.

[1373] And you did this.

[1374] And he's like, well, I don't understand because I'm just living my life.

[1375] And I'm looking at it.

[1376] Yeah.

[1377] And I'm looking at it from a vantage point of a 25 year career that now seems to have a pattern emerge, like your algorithm.

[1378] There probably wasn't a pattern while it was happening.

[1379] But now over time, I can point to these cycles.

[1380] Yeah, that's interesting.

[1381] I actually have thought of that right now because I took a couple years off to have kids.

[1382] And, you know, when I decided to take that time off, you could say, I guess, like, the amount of jobs I was being offered are different than they are now having taken a few years off, which is nerve -wracking, to say the least, to be, like, if we're being forthcoming and I admire how forthcoming you are about your own things.

[1383] So I've thought of that in the past.

[1384] It's like, well, it worked once.

[1385] Like, I quit.

[1386] You know, I was on a sitcom and being offered other sitcoms and I quit and decided to do other shit.

[1387] And for a while there, it seemed like I wasn't going to get to do the shit that I really wanted to do, but then it did work out.

[1388] Yeah.

[1389] And so now I feel like I've definitely sometimes felt like, okay, I'm in that place again.

[1390] I'm going to hold tight and like it's going to happen again.

[1391] Right.

[1392] And now when you're in your lowest moment and you're evaluating your prospects, do you take it personal?

[1393] Are you able to see that the entire industry changed in the last six years?

[1394] Like, do you recognize they don't make as many movies, the only movies that work aren't maybe the ones you would even want.

[1395] Like, the whole thing is dramatically shifted towards television, but ultimately.

[1396] Yeah, very true.

[1397] I think both.

[1398] In more practical moments, I'm able to zoom out and be like, okay, what does this mean?

[1399] What should I do?

[1400] What are the, like you said, how is the landscape shifted?

[1401] Yeah.

[1402] In less practical moments, I just think like, fuck, I blew it.

[1403] I got off the train.

[1404] I got off the train.

[1405] I can see it disappearing.

[1406] Like, I got, I got, I was cocky.

[1407] I shouldn't have done that.

[1408] like why like the kids would have been fine if i like yeah yeah okay so after 500 days of summer you do go on this incredible ride from 2009 to 2013 where you do gi joe you do inception 50 50 premium rush a lincoln the dark night rises this is bonkers in that time the one thing i want to say where i actually became a fan of you as an actor was brick just that's where i was like i know who this guy is but now i've seen him in something that i love And I just think you're terrific in that.

[1409] Thanks.

[1410] Awesome and Looper.

[1411] And obviously you and Ryan Johnson have some kind of awesome.

[1412] Is it not the most flattering thing to have a talented director want to use you as his point guard?

[1413] It really, like if you're talking about just that kind of arguably unhealthy pleasure.

[1414] Yeah, a validation.

[1415] Yeah, validation.

[1416] That's a good way to put it.

[1417] Yeah, that's a strong one.

[1418] Yeah.

[1419] Okay.

[1420] Now, so 2013, I go see Don John.

[1421] I go in.

[1422] I could not have loved your movie more.

[1423] I fucking loved it from the fucking.

[1424] title card to the end of the movie the music was awesome it was so stylized i loved the casting of putting tony danz in there i thought you were incredible the script was great i fucking loved it thanks it was the other time other than 500 days somewhere i walked out was like god damn it he did it i'm so glad he's good at this and i liked it so much that i remember like wishing i knew how to reach out to you because i i was so passionate about how much i liked it and i was just so impressed by everything you did in it.

[1425] Man, thanks.

[1426] Why didn't you roll right into another one?

[1427] Yeah, I've been wanting to direct another thing since.

[1428] And I took a couple of really big swings on very ambitious projects that fell apart for different reasons.

[1429] Very hard to be on my control.

[1430] I'm actually currently working on that.

[1431] Yeah, not ready to talk about a thing.

[1432] You're directing a Marvel movie.

[1433] Monica, you're directing a Marvel movie.

[1434] Great.

[1435] I'll call the trades.

[1436] And at the same time, though, the other place where I get that satisfaction where I have that outlet of making stuff is with my company, HitRecord, which is really different than directing a traditional feature film.

[1437] Yeah, so Hit Record is this online collaborative artist's workspace, right, where people can start stories, other people can contribute.

[1438] They can start songs, people can contribute.

[1439] So I went on the website and I was looking at it.

[1440] I'm pretty prehistoric in my understanding of a lot of the, embarrassingly so.

[1441] Yeah.

[1442] Where are the finished products of all this stuff?

[1443] It's a really good question and that's not you being prehistoric.

[1444] Okay.

[1445] So Hit Recore was always, ever since 2010, we've called ourselves a production company.

[1446] Uh -huh.

[1447] And it was about me and the people in my office sort of starting projects and leading them and then letting anybody who wants to come contribute to them.

[1448] Yeah.

[1449] And the finished things wouldn't really exist on our site.

[1450] Like we would publish a book or we would put out a record or we made a TV show or we would make a branded campaign.

[1451] And the website was like the kitchen.

[1452] Right.

[1453] The dining room wasn't there.

[1454] Okay.

[1455] Lately, though, we realized, hey, you know, it's actually a really wonderful thing that's going on with this community because it unlocks creativity for people when they do it together with other people.

[1456] In the ways that I think is different than a lot of the kind of creativity or the kind of creative culture you find elsewhere on the internet, it's wonderful that YouTube exists and anybody can make a video and put it out on YouTube and share it with the world.

[1457] But if you don't have the wherewithal to make the video all by yourself or with your friends because you've managed to move to L .A. And you have your friends at the groundlings and you can all make a video together.

[1458] Right.

[1459] Or if you're just like, I know I want to make something, but I don't even know what.

[1460] Uh -huh.

[1461] having a community of people that are like in the middle of doing stuff is really encouraging for people.

[1462] Yeah.

[1463] And then I would imagine people can be utility players within that.

[1464] Like I'm a great editor, but I don't really want to tell.

[1465] Exactly.

[1466] Yeah.

[1467] Or like I feel like drawing today, I don't know what to draw.

[1468] What does someone need drawn?

[1469] Uh -huh.

[1470] And that can like provide that inspiration.

[1471] And we saw that working at a certain scale within the production company context.

[1472] Yeah.

[1473] But we realize that there's a limit to how many people can really be included.

[1474] when we're always the ones leading the project, we meaning me and the folks in my office.

[1475] The creative direction team.

[1476] Yeah.

[1477] So we said, what if we take what we've been doing as a production company and build sort of a larger ecosystem around that?

[1478] So that we're not always the ones leading the projects.

[1479] Let's build the tools to take what we've learned leading these projects and let other people lead the projects.

[1480] And then when people finish projects, have a place where those finished projects go.

[1481] So to your question, where the finished project is.

[1482] Yeah, because I got super intrigued, and I'm like, now I want to hear some of these collaborations or see some of them.

[1483] It's so cool you ask because it's funny.

[1484] It's as if I asked you to ask that question because that's exactly what we're building right now.

[1485] Oh, cool.

[1486] So, like, just last year, we went up to, like, Silicon Valley.

[1487] And so, like, here's our idea.

[1488] Here's what we've been doing as a production company for all these years.

[1489] We've been successful at it.

[1490] Our show won an Emmy, blah, blah, blah.

[1491] Yeah.

[1492] But we think a lot more people could do this.

[1493] and get a lot out of it.

[1494] And so we raised money and now we were able to, we never put any emphasis on technology before.

[1495] So now we're able to like hire a proper engineering team and a product design team.

[1496] And we're like building our website and our app was like heroically worked on by a very small number of people to make it like good enough to allow us to make the things we wanted to make.

[1497] Yeah.

[1498] Now we're making a proper user experience that's serving more than just us so that anybody can come and get involved.

[1499] Right.

[1500] And I also think it would lead to growth because if you could see the product and you might go like, oh wow, I could have added that thing.

[1501] That's exactly it.

[1502] That's what ultimately, I would love to have a media ecosystem, if you will, where when you watch something, you're not just then taken down a rabbit hole of addictive watching the next thing and the next thing and the next thing but rather if you watch something and it's inspiring to you, you're served up, hey, here's something you could get involved in.

[1503] Yeah.

[1504] If you liked that, maybe you want to, we're making the next episode right now.

[1505] Or here's another thing that's sort of similar that you might want, not just watch, but you might want to contribute something to.

[1506] Yeah.

[1507] I would love to see a media platform that works that way.

[1508] And that's what we're trying to build.

[1509] That's really cool.

[1510] Now you have a new podcast.

[1511] That's right.

[1512] That's right.

[1513] Now let's talk about that.

[1514] Yeah.

[1515] What's the name of the podcast?

[1516] It's called Creative Processing.

[1517] Creative Processing.

[1518] And so it's funny because your podcast came up when I was starting to think about doing a podcast.

[1519] Oh, really?

[1520] I was like, yeah, when I would like start floating that idea way more than anybody else, people were like, oh, well, Dax Shepherd has a really good podcast.

[1521] You should listen to his.

[1522] Very flattering.

[1523] And I listened to yours.

[1524] And just even the very concept of armchair expert, I was like, this is such a smart way to frame these conversations and to frame like the position of you both in speaking about a variety of things is it's so telling for like what our time is.

[1525] is we're all kind of turned into armchair.

[1526] We're all geniuses now.

[1527] We all have these platforms and be like, here's what I think.

[1528] You're so good at it.

[1529] The podcast that I'm doing is pretty different.

[1530] I think actually I would give you credit, partially because I'm like, well, I'm not going to do that.

[1531] He's killing it.

[1532] Well, I would never try to direct a porn -porn -addicted guy.

[1533] Yeah, don't try it.

[1534] Yeah, it's already been unperfectly.

[1535] Stay off from my territory.

[1536] No, so the idea of creative processing is to actually narrow the focus and really just talk about creative process.

[1537] Yeah.

[1538] Which is something that probably the only thing I feel like I have some amount of expertise at.

[1539] Sure.

[1540] Speaking of armchair expert.

[1541] Yeah.

[1542] Are there favorite blueprints of being creative that you adhere to?

[1543] One of my favorite books, which is called Letters to a Young Poet.

[1544] It's written like 100 years ago.

[1545] It's by the author's name Real Kay, who was a poet.

[1546] And he had this correspondence with a fan, really.

[1547] this kid started writing him letters Realke felt a personal resonance with the kid and the book is just a series of I don't know 10 letters that Real Kay wrote to this kid and the kid is like you know in the middle of military school wants to be a poet and is writing letters to his favorite poet saying like what should I do and will you read my poetry and what's life about and like is am I going down the right path basically and and this fucking Rainer Maria Rilke takes it upon himself to write these beautiful, long, in -depth, very forthcoming and honest and not necessarily like sugar -coated.

[1548] Some of it's kind of brutally honest.

[1549] Sure.

[1550] Letters to a stranger, to this young kid who he happens to, for whatever reason, take a liking to or be like, you know what, I'm going to.

[1551] He must have spent hours, I mean, many, many hours writing letters to this kid that he didn't know about his poetry.

[1552] and about writing in general and about life and about getting older and about just how to find meaning in being a creative person.

[1553] He talks a lot about just not caring what other people think, having to go deep within yourself and find your own voice.

[1554] And maybe that's part of what you're kind of alluding to that I've always struggled with.

[1555] I don't think I'm perfect at all at it because I do care a lot what people think.

[1556] But I strive to live.

[1557] in that place where you're intrinsically motivated as opposed to exactly i learned that those terms intrinsic motivation and extrinsic motivation when tasha and i were learning about parenting oh right and i was like oh this applies so much to being an artist yeah and i think the simplest explanation is is you play guitar because you enjoy playing guitar versus you're playing guitar to get good to play for someone else yeah because they'll validate you yes yeah yeah i strive for intrinsic motivation as well In my experience, that's where I find joy.

[1558] Yeah.

[1559] Is when I'm, like you say, playing guitar.

[1560] Like, I do play guitar, actually.

[1561] I like playing music.

[1562] I've never really done anything with it very professionally.

[1563] Uh -huh.

[1564] Still do it all the time just because I really, really love it.

[1565] Now, do I also struggle with, like, maybe I should have put out an album?

[1566] Or, like, maybe, like, the world would tell me I was great.

[1567] If I would just, in the end, I'm, I still think I still, like, stand by being, you just like doing it in my room yeah because the unfortunate thing is as we get other people's approvals which definitely feels nice in the moment it just doesn't have any stain power it's only really your own approval that can can have any kind of longevity it's a very good way to put it yeah when you get that external validation and it's actually it's addictive it's the slot machine it is that slot machine it's a high for a moment and then it goes away and then you want more and you don't even want an even amount of it you want more and then more and more and more and then more and more and more, and it's never enough.

[1568] And the amount of validation you were getting previously is no longer enough to give you that same feeling that you got and so you need more.

[1569] Yes.

[1570] I know from experience now that just I've seen it time and time again when I'm able to get my head out of that space and just focus on how it feels for myself to be doing it.

[1571] That's when I get really happy.

[1572] So say the name of it again one more time, the podcast or the podcast.

[1573] Yeah.

[1574] It's called Creative Processing.

[1575] Creative Processing.

[1576] And are you on a network or something?

[1577] How do we find your show?

[1578] K1013 is the company.

[1579] They're known for Pod Save America and most other things.

[1580] But I don't know.

[1581] We find podcasts on...

[1582] Our podcasts are on Spotify and et cetera, et cetera.

[1583] And when does it come out?

[1584] August 20th is the first episode.

[1585] It's with Ryan Johnson, who you met.

[1586] Oh, great.

[1587] I would love to listen to that.

[1588] Yeah, he was really fun.

[1589] We talked about originality.

[1590] Each episode starts with a question.

[1591] And then the conversation goes from there.

[1592] And it goes here and there, but we kind of get back to the question of whatever that question is for that episode.

[1593] And we take questions just from the internet.

[1594] And then I try to find, like, oh, this would be a good question to ask Ryan.

[1595] Right.

[1596] And the question we asked Ryan was about being original.

[1597] Because Ryan is such a mixture of a totally original voice, but also someone who draws heavily from his influences.

[1598] Like you mentioned Brick.

[1599] Brick is like basically a Dashel Hammett novel.

[1600] Dashal Hammond, who's like, you know, kind of the film noir detective Humphrey Bogart thing.

[1601] Yeah, gum shoe.

[1602] But he put this weird twist on it, setting it in high school.

[1603] And so he's always playing with how to build originality out of preexisting parts.

[1604] Yeah.

[1605] He had so many great thoughts about what it means to have an original voice creatively.

[1606] So we talked about that for an hour.

[1607] Okay, well, listen, I like you.

[1608] You're talented.

[1609] You're nice.

[1610] I can't wait to listen to your podcast.

[1611] And Monica, you as well.

[1612] You like Joe, right?

[1613] Love.

[1614] Oh, good.

[1615] Good.

[1616] We all found love.

[1617] Will I like you both, too?

[1618] All right, let's go do the neighbors.

[1619] Let's hang out.

[1620] Yeah.

[1621] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[1622] Joseph Gordon Levy.

[1623] Oh, Joey Gordy Levy.

[1624] Joey Gordy Levy.

[1625] Mm. Mm -hmm.

[1626] Mm -mm -mm.

[1627] Liked him.

[1628] I liked him a lot, too.

[1629] Yeah.

[1630] He's one of these guys that I had an opinion of.

[1631] Yeah, you told him.

[1632] I told him as much.

[1633] And then he's just much more approachable.

[1634] Is that the right word?

[1635] You know what it was is he just triggered my insecurities where I just thought, oh, this person's a better actor than me or a more acclaimed actor than me. And they think I'm low rent from the wrong side of the tracks.

[1636] It was my insecurity.

[1637] You think that about a lot of people.

[1638] You think so?

[1639] Oh, yeah.

[1640] You say it to a lot of people who come in here.

[1641] That I think they're like higher status than me. You say to a lot of people like, I could see that you think I'm this, this, this.

[1642] You say that too, I would say.

[1643] Oh, oh.

[1644] There isn't going to be a number.

[1645] I'm going to like, go ahead at me. 70 % of the people are going to come in.

[1646] Oh, my goodness.

[1647] No, I don't think it's that high.

[1648] Yeah, it is.

[1649] And listen, I know you believe that.

[1650] I know that is real to you.

[1651] Sure.

[1652] Sure.

[1653] That you feel that way about them.

[1654] Uh -huh.

[1655] But nobody...

[1656] Thus far.

[1657] Well, there's a few things happening.

[1658] First of all, nobody thinks that at all.

[1659] Secondly...

[1660] No one goes like, ooh, gross.

[1661] Here comes to acts.

[1662] No one's doing that.

[1663] And secondly, I mean, just not to crush you, but they're not thinking about you.

[1664] Oh, that is totally true.

[1665] I agree.

[1666] So they're not like even evaluating whether you're, whatever, that you're afraid that they think of you.

[1667] So they're not thinking about you, but then they have to pretend kind of in these moments.

[1668] Oh, they do.

[1669] Well, not pretend, but I think they feel like they have to be like...

[1670] They have to entertain the hypothesis.

[1671] Well, no, no, no, no. Okay, I just imagine somebody said that to you.

[1672] Right.

[1673] Obviously are going to say, no. Right.

[1674] Well, I've had this with friends of mine in the program who are actors, right?

[1675] who will express some kind of embarrassment about how their career is going to me, right?

[1676] Okay.

[1677] And I regularly say, never once, and this is true, never once has their job been a part of how I'm evaluating my opinion about them.

[1678] Never.

[1679] When they're on a hot street, I don't think anything about them.

[1680] Like, the thing they're doing for money is the thing I'm least interested in about them.

[1681] Sure.

[1682] I can clearly see it in others.

[1683] You know what I'm saying?

[1684] I can see, and I try to tell them, like, I don't, I've never.

[1685] considered your job or whether you're working a lot or none.

[1686] Yeah.

[1687] And obviously, it would go without saying no one's doing that towards me either.

[1688] Yeah.

[1689] But I can relate to feeling that way.

[1690] Like, oh, boy, I'm a, oh, I didn't.

[1691] These people think I'm a failure.

[1692] Yeah.

[1693] I get that.

[1694] And also, though, it's a little different with those people because you know those people, they're in your life.

[1695] So even extra, like, of course you don't care about their job.

[1696] You care about them as a person but with strangers it's easier to do it because you're like oh they just know this about me and this about me and they probably have this opinion yeah but really they don't and they're not thinking about it and then when you bring it up they have to be like no I love you oh so I'm forcing them to and I think they're they do of course they do but maybe not maybe just to like get out of the whole conversation is what you're saying no no they do but there's like they're never going to say to you Yeah, actually I did kind of think that Yeah, I was like, I saw an employee the month I was like, why?

[1697] What's wrong with you?

[1698] Yeah.

[1699] I'm just saying to you that, you know, this conversation comes up a lot and it goes the exact same way every time and also because there's no way it could go any other way.

[1700] Yeah.

[1701] You're right.

[1702] When you're right, you're right.

[1703] You don't have to stop.

[1704] No, I'm going to aim to stop.

[1705] I'm not telling you stop.

[1706] Why wouldn't I?

[1707] Why wouldn't I try to get better at something that's above all things a waste of time to see your point what else are they going to say like no man of course i don't think that about you yeah they and they don't and nobody does no about anybody but yeah all of our opinions are so mired in our own fears it's ridiculous yeah yeah well no not just fears experience mm -hmm on earth that too yeah j g l J .G .L. Jake Gyllenhaal Levine.

[1708] Oh.

[1709] So he was talking about Harry Nilsson and Nina Simone, two musicians he loves and that he kind of stays away from hearing about their story.

[1710] Mm -hmm.

[1711] So that he can just...

[1712] Mm -hmm.

[1713] And he said that he thinks they both had documentaries on Netflix about them.

[1714] The Harry Nilsson one is called Who is Harry Nilsson?

[1715] It's not on Netflix.

[1716] Okay.

[1717] But it is a documentary.

[1718] The other one is what happened to Miss Simone, and it is on Netflix.

[1719] Oh, we should watch that.

[1720] We should.

[1721] I would love to watch it.

[1722] Yeah.

[1723] Or if you want to take his path and remove yourself, you can't.

[1724] I did something last night that's going to anger both you and Kristen, which is I watched that documentary with Gaga.

[1725] What?

[1726] Well, I wanted to share something with Gaga.

[1727] What documentary?

[1728] The one that was suggested by Josh.

[1729] Oh, geez.

[1730] Yeah.

[1731] I didn't.

[1732] Okay, let me just run by what happened yesterday.

[1733] Okay.

[1734] Okay.

[1735] So the listeners know why we can all be upset.

[1736] Okay.

[1737] So I said, it was a double crossing for sure.

[1738] Yeah.

[1739] Jeez, Louise.

[1740] So I am in the car with you.

[1741] And you said, what are you doing tonight?

[1742] I said nothing.

[1743] And then you said, oh, well, there's some documentaries like this one that was recommended to us by Josh.

[1744] And I said, oh, okay, well, Chris is not going to be home tonight.

[1745] So we should.

[1746] shouldn't watch that you want to watch something else and you said no i'm going to go to bed early that's right and then i watched it with gaga i watched it with lory she wanted to watch something and i um i didn't know what to suggest so i in a panic i just i went ahead and watched it okay and um it was really good good i'm sorry to say the whole thing wrapped up around 930 at night anyways i apologize that I did that I got um yeah I don't know I got scared one part you left out though which is totally fine it's just I did then said to you an hour after I said I'm going to go to bed early I said you know what I've changed my mind I kind of want to watch a movie yeah if you want to and then you say oh well now I've made plans with chess and I said totally understand yeah yeah so there was I did all I did it wasn't a total uh it wasn't great it wasn't great But I did invite you after I said I didn't want to.

[1747] Yeah, you did.

[1748] You're right.

[1749] You did.

[1750] All things are true.

[1751] Do you feel good about yourself?

[1752] I'm just kidding.

[1753] But do you, do you really?

[1754] I do have that question.

[1755] Like, this is so silly, which is why we can talk about it because we're talking about watching shows and stuff.

[1756] Yeah.

[1757] Which is so.

[1758] So many people deal with this.

[1759] But nine.

[1760] But everyone is dealing with this right now.

[1761] Yeah.

[1762] Yeah.

[1763] Where it feels like a real betrayal.

[1764] Uh -huh.

[1765] When, like, we were watching a show.

[1766] Loudest voice.

[1767] Loudest voice.

[1768] And I left you.

[1769] You did.

[1770] Yeah.

[1771] Without telling me, you finished.

[1772] Well, because part of me was thinking I would just watch it and then rewatch it with you and pretend I didn't see it.

[1773] Okay.

[1774] But then.

[1775] I do that all the time.

[1776] Do you?

[1777] You do?

[1778] You guys are so fucking impatient.

[1779] Well, hold on, though.

[1780] Here's, can I just run you through the thought analysis in my head?

[1781] Yeah.

[1782] So last night, I think, oh, I could put that thing on.

[1783] And I'm like, no, I'm supposed to watch that with Monica and Kristen.

[1784] But then I think we have so much stuff to watch.

[1785] Sure.

[1786] Like we're behind on handmaids.

[1787] We got to catch up on that.

[1788] Piki is coming in two seconds.

[1789] We now have succession, which we're supposed to be watching.

[1790] And we now have righteous gemstones.

[1791] So I think, are we going to watch this documentary before any of those three things?

[1792] And I go, no. So now I'm choosing to not watch.

[1793] this thing right now so that I can watch it in three months and then it starts getting a little more like fuck it everyone will forget or will have watched other things and it's not really at the top of the burner yeah and then I prioritize Gaga Gaga Michigan Lori Kristen's mom as I want to make her happy and I think of the many different options that's the one she'd like the most because it's a kind of a horrific tale totally she likes the macabre I get that so you know those are all the things that go through my head but I definitely go like oh I'm supposed to watch this with them but I don't think that'll happen for months yeah I get it but what was the documentary I wish I could remember the name it's about the deep diver who his umbilical cord got severed working on a what's called a manifold where the oil comes out of the surface of the the ocean floor in the north sea their GPS system on the boat that keeps it in one position it's it failed so the boat started drifting off in a storm and it was pulling on the umbilical cords and then he got snagged on this thing underwater it's it's crazy it's not that sounds awful what is it last yeah last breath it's phenomenal and it's so identical to something that would happen in space you know like those two environments are virtually the same yikes it is crazy it's incredible documentary but something i knew lory would glad glad you liked it so much yeah now i'm at an ethical crossroads of i should downplayed so it doesn't feel like you got left out of something great and you had an obligation to the filmmakers who did a great job it's okay but with the roger ails one that's different there's no gaga involved with that you can't pin it on somebody else's happiness no but again how that happened i'm wrong is i'm back to work i know i'm working three weeks in a row then one week off and so we're just not watching tv at night really because i have to wake up at six every morning and so i'm like I would not expect her to not watch this show for three and a half weeks.

[1794] So I'm going to tell her just go on without me. And then knowing I'm going to do that, then I just start watching it on my lunch.

[1795] And did you tell me to go on?

[1796] I did.

[1797] No. Yes.

[1798] That's how it happened.

[1799] I said to you, I text you to say, do you know how much his assistant made?

[1800] No, no, no, no, no. No?

[1801] You watched, and then me and you were having a talk.

[1802] Okay.

[1803] And I'll be forthcoming about this.

[1804] We were coming out of a fight.

[1805] And we were talking to remedy that.

[1806] Uh -huh.

[1807] And you said, you should finish the...

[1808] Yeah, loudest voice.

[1809] And I was like, oh, did you finish?

[1810] I really remember that reaction, right?

[1811] Yeah.

[1812] That's fair, right?

[1813] And then you said, yeah.

[1814] Yeah.

[1815] So, no, no, no. You watched the show.

[1816] But I said you should, you should finish it.

[1817] That was my way of saying, that was my way of bringing up that you should peel off and finish it.

[1818] After you had finished it.

[1819] Yeah.

[1820] Uh -huh.

[1821] Because I knew I was going to say that.

[1822] Sure.

[1823] And I wasn't going to wait until I told you that.

[1824] And we were in a fight when we weren't talking a bunch.

[1825] It was all complicated.

[1826] Yeah.

[1827] And we were in a fight when I did it.

[1828] We, exactly.

[1829] And I was like.

[1830] And I was like.

[1831] And it hurt a lot more.

[1832] It did.

[1833] Yeah.

[1834] Because it just felt like, okay.

[1835] So we're in a fight and then he's just decided to move on with his life.

[1836] I can see where it felt that way.

[1837] But I was being much more practical about it, which is, okay, we're in a fight.

[1838] So we're probably not watching TV together this week.

[1839] I'm also at work every single day for 12 hours.

[1840] And I know we need to talk before we're ever going to be watching TV again.

[1841] So I know at best case scenario, we're going to have this talk on Saturday or something.

[1842] Yeah.

[1843] It's all so far away.

[1844] And I'm bored at lunch.

[1845] What do I do?

[1846] Yeah.

[1847] Yeah.

[1848] Not an excuse.

[1849] I see both.

[1850] It was an act of betrayal.

[1851] This is what people are dealing with in 2019.

[1852] I know.

[1853] All things said, like, I hope that's the apex of my betrayal of you is that I watched a show at work.

[1854] I hope so, too.

[1855] Yeah.

[1856] We can overcome.

[1857] TBD.

[1858] TBD.

[1859] So, you said that Fleetwood Mac makes great love songs, but if you evaluate their actual romantic lives, they're a mess.

[1860] They all have 26 husbands and wives.

[1861] Was that a low?

[1862] Okay.

[1863] understand what you meant by that.

[1864] I just meant they've all been married and divorced a bunch of times.

[1865] Yeah, they have.

[1866] Well, do you want to hear a little synopsis of them?

[1867] Hit me with Stevie Nix.

[1868] The duo.

[1869] Who's Mick?

[1870] Mick Fleetwood.

[1871] Okay.

[1872] You don't hear much about Mick.

[1873] Mick's the drummer.

[1874] So Mick Fleetwood is the Fleetwood and Fleetwood Mac.

[1875] I want to say the guitar player or something was the Mac part.

[1876] And they were a band with All -V, or And then they brought in Stevie Nix.

[1877] Okay.

[1878] Their original Fleetwood Mac stuff is almost punk rock.

[1879] There's some really cool early Fleetwood Mac albums that are, it's way less.

[1880] Without Stevie Nix.

[1881] Yes.

[1882] Oh, interesting.

[1883] And then I think many of the members fell in love with each other at different times.

[1884] Yeah.

[1885] Okay.

[1886] So this is what I have here, but there's probably way more.

[1887] The duo who joined the group in 1974 began dating in the late 1960s.

[1888] Their tumultuous often -on relationship officially ended during the making of rumors in 1976.

[1889] The vocalist and the drummer began an affair in 1977 when Mick was still married to first wife, Jenny Boyd.

[1890] Oops.

[1891] The pair mutually agreed to end it soon after, but the damage to Mick's marriage had already been done.

[1892] Fleetwood Max co -founder married the model.

[1893] The model.

[1894] I'm sorry, I don't know who that is.

[1895] In 1970, and the pair had two daughters.

[1896] In 1973, Mick discovered his wife was having an affair with his good friend and fellow band member, Bob Weston.

[1897] Oh, wow.

[1898] Mick forced Bob out of the group and ended up divorcing Jenny in 1975.

[1899] The two remarried only to divorce again in 1977 after Mick's affair with Stevie.

[1900] Oh, I was right.

[1901] This is a mess.

[1902] I love it.

[1903] Soon after, Mick began dating Stevie's best friend Sarah Rackle.

[1904] This is awesome.

[1905] Fellow co -founder John married Christine in 1968, and she officially joined the group in 1970.

[1906] And her name's Christine McVee or something?

[1907] Maybe.

[1908] I don't have a last name.

[1909] During the making of rumors, the pair was having marital problems, and Christine engaged in a fair with the band's lighting director.

[1910] Oh, perfect.

[1911] The duo ended up divorcing in 1976, but Christine remained in the band until 1998.

[1912] I mean, what a reality show that would have made.

[1913] Oh, my God.

[1914] Just bed swapping.

[1915] I bet every time they got to a fucking city on their tour, the hotel room door, were open and closing, and people were crisscrossing in the hallway.

[1916] That's right.

[1917] What a party.

[1918] I know.

[1919] And I love, too, whoever, the lighting director, he must have been watching from the outside for a couple of years going, like, how do I get myself into this circus?

[1920] I want to be bed hopping at the hotel.

[1921] Yeah, he had to, like, go to the hotel early and be like, where, what floor are they on?

[1922] Yes.

[1923] And can I please get on that floor?

[1924] I bet he just used to stare out as peephole at the hotel, see who was crisscrossing in what direction, and it was so jealous of all the activity.

[1925] Oh, man. for him.

[1926] He got in there.

[1927] He did.

[1928] Yeah.

[1929] Big leagues.

[1930] So, um, you said in South Korea that they treat kids for video game addiction.

[1931] Okay.

[1932] So roughly one in 10 South Korean children between the ages of 10 and 19 are addicted to the internet according to the most recent government data.

[1933] In a new report, Vice estimates that number could be as high as 50%.

[1934] Addicted gamers suffer sleep deprivation, mood swings, and seizures as a result of their dedication and make for less engaged citizens.

[1935] In 2011, the government passed the Cinderella Act, commonly known as the shutdown law, which prevents children under the age of 16 from accessing gaming websites between midnight and 6 a .m. Wow, that's the only parameter.

[1936] Yeah, isn't that crazy?

[1937] Under the system, anyone in South Korea wishing to log into those sites must enter the age encoded national ID, but I guess people like got around.

[1938] How hard is that?

[1939] Dr. Lee J. Wan, a neuropsychiatrist at a hospital in Seoul, told Shay that online gaming accounts for roughly 90 % of addiction cases in South Korea.

[1940] Of course, the overnight gaming ban has its flaws.

[1941] Some kids will use their parents' IDs to hop online, a pretty amateur hack.

[1942] When the system fails to save kids from themselves, some parents employ an alternate defensive mechanism, internet rehab.

[1943] One quarter of teens diagnosed with internet addiction will be hospitalized and a government -sponsored.

[1944] Center like Dr. Lee's practice.

[1945] Shea visited this hospital and tried out some of the unusual therapies.

[1946] So.

[1947] There's one jerking off?

[1948] No. Not that I know.

[1949] Because you're going to introduce them to the pleasure of jerking off.

[1950] Oh, instead.

[1951] Oh, that's not a horrible idea.

[1952] The first stage of treatment is a brain scan to test addiction.

[1953] Shea watched gameplay while electrodes were strapped to his head.

[1954] Next, he received some sort of neurofeedback or biofeedback therapy.

[1955] The applications of which were.

[1956] unclear.

[1957] He sat in a chair as Dr. Lee delivered a single electric shock via a brain pulse instrument.

[1958] In the seconds after the zap, his whole body shuddered involuntarily.

[1959] So electroshock therapy.

[1960] Yes.

[1961] In the final stage of therapy, Shea sat in a chair and watched footage of violent video games.

[1962] Doctors measured how long he could observe without feeling a dire need to pick up a controller.

[1963] For internet addiction treatment, it's not about avoiding using the internet as a whole, it's more about a patient being able to control their use of the internet like a normal person.

[1964] I have pessimistic views of, if you, once you're, you've proven addicted to things, the road to moderations to me seems a lot harder than the road to abstinence.

[1965] Yeah, but in some cases, you can't like food.

[1966] Right.

[1967] You got to eat.

[1968] And the internet, really.

[1969] Sex addiction.

[1970] You got a fuck.

[1971] Sex addiction, you could do abstinence for some time.

[1972] No, you're going to end up in a relationship and your partner's going to expect.

[1973] sex.

[1974] Yeah, but by then you may have figured out some tools, but like when you're in the midst of it, you could stop having sex.

[1975] Yes, yes, yep.

[1976] I mean, you're probably going to have to do all things.

[1977] I'm arguing the opposite now.

[1978] Uh -oh, you flip.

[1979] You waffled?

[1980] But anyway, I'm not loving the sound of this electroshock therapy.

[1981] Okay, you've got kind of a knee jerk.

[1982] Yeah.

[1983] Yeah.

[1984] Who knows?

[1985] I don't really know anything about electroshock therapy.

[1986] I think it's I do, though.

[1987] I'm leaning more and more and more.

[1988] I just brought this up.

[1989] I don't think I want any screens in our house.

[1990] Ever?

[1991] Yeah.

[1992] Fuck it.

[1993] They're smarter than us.

[1994] If I can't compete with my phone, if my phone is smarter than me and has me addicted to it and I'm 44, what fucking shot does a 12 year old have with the underdeveloped frontal lobe?

[1995] I know.

[1996] It's powerless.

[1997] You might as well give them fucking lines of cocaine.

[1998] No. You can't teach them how to to handle it responsibly.

[1999] I mean, it's really hard.

[2000] I get it.

[2001] But I don't think we're moving it.

[2002] You can't.

[2003] They're going to go to their friend's house.

[2004] There's going to be.

[2005] Yeah, so great.

[2006] So they do it there.

[2007] But I don't know.

[2008] I don't think the way to get kids.

[2009] I just, I don't know.

[2010] I don't think.

[2011] I think they have their whole life to be addicted to the stupid phone in their hand.

[2012] Why not give them 18 years not addicted to it?

[2013] Okay.

[2014] First, it's not going to happen that they go 18 years without a phone.

[2015] Is this like I'm, I'm, basically an abstinent sex person.

[2016] Yeah, you are.

[2017] Yeah.

[2018] You're being a little bit unrealistic.

[2019] Because sex is a connection and it's a positive thing.

[2020] Not always.

[2021] Well, thanks Debbie Downer.

[2022] That is the truth.

[2023] In the case of what?

[2024] It gets abused all the time.

[2025] Yeah.

[2026] Not even in molesting in between two people who even want to be there.

[2027] That's not always about connection.

[2028] Oh, no, no. But minimally it's about, you know.

[2029] pleasure it should be pleasurable whatever yeah it should yes i think one thing is good and one thing is not good yeah i think sex is good and i think staring into your hand is not good right that's your opinion yes it is and because a lot of people think sex is not good for young people yeah most people are ignoring 150 000 years of history okay yeah and i do think when you talk about frontal lobes and emotional kids do not have emotional stability so sex cannot be good for them in that way where they can get taken advantage of they can use sex to get things they don't want yeah sex where you're doing it to get approval of that's terrible sex before you're right to have sex terrible if your kid is uh horny and wants to engage in sex and is in some kind of respectful uh union with somebody yeah i don't i don't i don't I think it's positive.

[2030] I do, too.

[2031] Teenagers have been fucking since we've been homo sapien.

[2032] That's why you start your period at 13 and not 19.

[2033] Mm -hmm.

[2034] Yeah.

[2035] So, I don't know.

[2036] They also lived much shorter lives, so they kind of had to start earlier.

[2037] Also, I'm totally pro also, except I do think kids probably have a hard, I don't even know if it's a harder time.

[2038] It's hard for adults to manage emotions and sex.

[2039] Right.

[2040] But anyway.

[2041] That's true.

[2042] phones I don't see any upside to the phone though like I can't even paint a scenario where my life's been made better by a phone well for work it has podcast oh shit Rob you're right yeah entertainment you're right access me checking my text though every 10 minutes is implorable I know but I also like it yeah me too I like I I mean again if if that's your only level of connection you're getting in life.

[2043] Like if you're only on your phone, that's a problem.

[2044] But if it's an additive connection...

[2045] Right.

[2046] Or to maintain real life connections.

[2047] That's what I mean.

[2048] Yeah.

[2049] It's another way to connect with people you already love and...

[2050] Yeah.

[2051] And for people who are far away that you don't get to see, I think it's lovely.

[2052] I'd rather write you a letter on Monday and mail it to you that says, hey, would you like to watch TV on Wednesday?

[2053] And then you mail me a response and it gets there on Friday.

[2054] Yeah.

[2055] All right.

[2056] I just think we should be a little more real.

[2057] I'm making it binary and I hate binary.

[2058] I'm trying to say it's good or bad.

[2059] Yeah.

[2060] Which is stupid.

[2061] There are good things and really bad things.

[2062] I still just think, though, that the world is so big around you and to focus your attention to your hand is intrinsically bad.

[2063] I mean, yeah, I agree.

[2064] Yeah.

[2065] Maybe there are rules that can be.

[2066] be put in place like what tall ben shahar said which is like the rule is your phone stays in the kitchen at night so you can't pick it up first thing in the more like try to like minimize some of that because you really just need to get used to is like oh I really want that thing oh I can't have it oh and life went on like the more times you can experience that yeah the less fearful you'll be about losing the thing yeah so as many times as you could practice that like Oh, yeah, I'm agitated for 15 minutes.

[2067] And then life went on and I was fine.

[2068] I think it's a good.

[2069] Yeah.

[2070] Okay.

[2071] So 80 % of videos on Facebook or Twitter are watched without sound.

[2072] Yes, 85 is the number I found.

[2073] Isn't that crazy?

[2074] It's a lot.

[2075] That's what they type out everything now.

[2076] Like, whenever we see a video, they've added close captioning to it, basically.

[2077] Yeah.

[2078] Oh, okay.

[2079] So he did this.

[2080] Pop -Tart commercial.

[2081] Uh -huh.

[2082] And I wanted to play it.

[2083] Oh, good.

[2084] I love when you play these commercials.

[2085] Me too.

[2086] We're out of here.

[2087] Hold on, Mr. rushing out the door.

[2088] You haven't had your breakfast yet.

[2089] Oh, I know.

[2090] Tick, tick, tick.

[2091] Look, you've got time for Kellogg's Pop -Tarts.

[2092] That's my boy.

[2093] Now you're cooking.

[2094] Look, strawberry, your favorite.

[2095] Now, doesn't that hit the spot, kiddo?

[2096] Mm -hmm.

[2097] Kellogg's Pop -Tarts.

[2098] Real good, real fat.

[2099] speaking to his father?

[2100] I was like, Don't forget your homework.

[2101] Oh, he's holding a briefcase up when he says, don't forget your homework.

[2102] It was a role reversal.

[2103] Yeah, fantasy fulfillment.

[2104] Yeah.

[2105] You're in charge of your dad.

[2106] That's right.

[2107] Yeah.

[2108] No wonder it was successful.

[2109] Doesn't it feel crazy when you go to watch an old ad on YouTube but you have to watch an ad first to see the old ad?

[2110] No, no, no, I'm already watching an ad.

[2111] That's right.

[2112] Or like the worst is when they monetize a trailer.

[2113] It's like you go on to see a trailer and then you got to fucking watch a commercial.

[2114] before you...

[2115] A trailer before the trailer.

[2116] The trailer is a commercial.

[2117] Ooh, speaking of that, there's a new really interesting teaser for the movie Bombshell.

[2118] Ooh, what's that?

[2119] No. Did you see it, Rob?

[2120] Oh, God, you both have to watch it.

[2121] So I'm a little hazy.

[2122] The teaser is three women, Charlize, they're on, Nicole Kidman.

[2123] Nikki Kitty?

[2124] Nikki Kitty.

[2125] And Margo Robbie.

[2126] Margie.

[2127] Margie.

[2128] And they are in an elevator Throughout this whole teaser And they're kind of like looks really anxious It's in building anticipation anticipation anticipation And then the doors open And one of the ladies walks out and it's Fox News They're at Fox News And so some of these characters I think are real But I think maybe one is like fictional So I'm curious how this is all gonna happen It looks so interesting And good But this was an interesting thought experience because Callie works at Netflix, my friend Callie.

[2129] She sent me the teaser.

[2130] And then...

[2131] Oh, it's a Netflix movie?

[2132] No, it's not.

[2133] Oh, she just was like this.

[2134] Yeah.

[2135] And then she goes, it's introduced a really interesting conversation at my office because most of the men feel like it's anticlimactic.

[2136] Okay.

[2137] Or like it's not that interesting.

[2138] It needs more.

[2139] It needs like we need plot.

[2140] We need stuff.

[2141] And the women feel like it's so emotionally.

[2142] powerful it's so there which i fully agree with so i'm curious what you guys yeah that makes sense though yeah isn't that funny like it is boys are so visual uh -huh i mean i know not to do gender things but well also are there some kind of like um there's some kind of mirror neuron experience that many women have had in that elevator waiting to go into the lion's den that guys just haven't had but we don't know what it's going to open up to that's right so it's not really But do you think in general, just being very general.

[2143] Aren't women more afraid of elevators than men, just in general?

[2144] Well.

[2145] Because it was wisely pointed out on that Sam Harris interview.

[2146] It's like, imagine getting into an elevator, I'm saying this to men now.

[2147] Imagine getting into an elevator with a silverback gorilla.

[2148] Because you're outweighed by twice generally.

[2149] If you're a woman and you get in an elevator, you're getting into a steel box with another animal that's twice your size.

[2150] Yeah.

[2151] That's just inherently a little dice.

[2152] I think you're probably right.

[2153] I'm sure the fear level is a little bit heightened for women and elevators than men.

[2154] Like when I think of an elevator, my anxiety peaks just because I'm going to have to have an awkward exchange with a stranger.

[2155] That's my anxiety.

[2156] Not that I'm going to get attacked and raped in there.

[2157] Also, not an act.

[2158] I mean, not to diminish your fear, but you don't need to have a fear of that because you could just be quiet and not talk.

[2159] I can't.

[2160] I feel like everyone feels so uncomfortable and I have to break the ice and put everyone at ease.

[2161] I'm super codependent in an elevator.

[2162] It'll be some guy with like a headset on even.

[2163] Like he's fine, I'll think.

[2164] And then you think that's codependency, but really then you're putting that person in the position to then have to engage with you.

[2165] It's total projection.

[2166] Yeah, I talked about this with Ricky Glassman on his podcast.

[2167] He's like, you're just projecting that those people feel as awkward as you do.

[2168] And I'm like, you're dead right.

[2169] I'm just assuming that they feel as awkward as I do.

[2170] Because you're standing like a foot from a stranger.

[2171] Sometimes you're touching a stranger.

[2172] You're all looking forward.

[2173] There's this protocol that you don't turn and look at one another.

[2174] The whole thing is very awkward.

[2175] I think it's my most awkward experiences in life as being an elevator.

[2176] Everyone's being dead quiet.

[2177] Oh, it's so awkward.

[2178] You don't feel that?

[2179] I don't.

[2180] Oh, wow.

[2181] I don't.

[2182] I know what you mean, but I do not feel the need to communicate with the other people.

[2183] Unless something like funny happens, like you can't press the button quick.

[2184] A fart.

[2185] A fart.

[2186] Not a fart.

[2187] I would never comment on a fart.

[2188] What have I told myself?

[2189] I always fart to break the tension to relieve everybody's.

[2190] Yeah, so I never feel that.

[2191] And saying the word codependent is so interesting here because I feel like I don't want that person to feel uncomfortable.

[2192] That's codependence.

[2193] Right, the same thing.

[2194] And I think, oh, your average person doesn't have the skill set to break this situation with a fun joke.

[2195] Okay.

[2196] So it's like falling onto my shoulders.

[2197] So I, I have to be the one to relieve everyone's suffering because I should be able to do that.

[2198] Right.

[2199] And you know what I'm saying?

[2200] Because I'm outgoing.

[2201] Sure.

[2202] You are outgoing and you're great of making jokes.

[2203] But can you, can you see the self and that's a little bit of the self -involved perspective that like I'm the only one who could possibly relieve this tension that's not there that I've made us.

[2204] Uh -huh.

[2205] And...

[2206] Well, the tension is there, I think.

[2207] No, it's not.

[2208] People don't care.

[2209] Their weight, they're thinking about their thing, where they're going, what they're about to do.

[2210] And then someone's, like, cracking some jokes next to you.

[2211] You're right.

[2212] Some guy could just be like, he can't get to floor eight fast enough because he's on the verge of shitting his pants.

[2213] Yeah, he's probably not even thinking of me. He's like singularly focuses on how quickly he can get from the elevator to the employee bathroom.

[2214] Yeah.

[2215] So that's an option.

[2216] And then you're making him talk and he doesn't want to do.

[2217] and then a little seepage, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2218] You can, you can just let it go.

[2219] Yeah, yeah.

[2220] It's very hard.

[2221] Yeah, you can do it.

[2222] I believe in you.

[2223] That is all.

[2224] That's all.

[2225] Oh, do you want me to play my voice message?

[2226] Oh, sure.

[2227] Yeah, that could be fun since we have one minute.

[2228] Voice memo.

[2229] First I'll say this.

[2230] I played a voice memo the other day of Houston Estes, and then you had said that you had a fun voice memo.

[2231] Yeah, and here it is.

[2232] Yeah, and it was because the DP on Bless This Mess Mess speaks Japanese and he was explaining how they put vowels after all the consonants.

[2233] And I said, oh, like macudanoos, McDonald's in Japan is macudanodadoos.

[2234] And he said, yeah, yeah, how do you know that?

[2235] And I said, oh, my ex -girlfriend spoke a bit of Japanese.

[2236] And then I said, oh, in fact, she could sing Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer in Japanese.

[2237] And it's the cutest song in Japanese.

[2238] And then so that caused me to text her and ask her if she still knew how to sing it.

[2239] She said, yes, she did.

[2240] I said, would you please record it for me?

[2241] And then she has.

[2242] And I want to share it because it's a real uplifting song.

[2243] Let's see.

[2244] Oh, my phone stop.

[2245] Isn't that great?

[2246] I like the middle part the most.

[2247] I love that.

[2248] I love that.

[2249] And also, at one point, I feel like I heard her say to herself, what am I doing this?

[2250] 100%.

[2251] Now only to find out I played it for a million people, which I'm sure.

[2252] Oh, how fun.

[2253] I wish I had something like that.

[2254] I know.

[2255] Well, it's kind of like, you know what it is?

[2256] It's just like Jess's pipi long strump in Swedish.

[2257] Yeah.

[2258] Yeah, there's something so tickly about hearing a familiar song in a different language.

[2259] So, yeah, that was probably maybe the number one party trick I would beg her to do in public.

[2260] Did she spend time in Japan?

[2261] Nope.

[2262] She took it in high school.

[2263] Oh.

[2264] Well, she's from Washington, and there was a large Japanese population there.

[2265] So they taught Japanese in her high school, which they didn't teach Japanese in my high school.

[2266] That wasn't offered to me either.

[2267] Yeah, and I also think around, so I'm one year older than her, two years older.

[2268] When I was like 18, you had the Michael Crichton, was it, book, The Rising Sun and then they made the Wesley Snipes movie about it.

[2269] We had all this huge Japan phobia that they, basically they were the China of today where Japan was going to be the number one economy in the world.

[2270] And so at the same time, people were like, we got to learn Japanese because they're going to be the number one economy in the world.

[2271] So I think there was this push for everyone to learn Japanese so that we could do business with them.

[2272] Ah, I see.

[2273] Yeah, but then now that the fear is transferred to China.

[2274] And the examples, like, it's funny to be old enough to have lived through these cycles of fearing different people because I remember during the Chinese Olympics, which you and I loved, that opening ceremony was so spectacular, the Beijing Olympics.

[2275] But on the cover of some magazines I was seeing, like, Chinese coaches push athletes to perform through injuries.

[2276] Like, they were uniquely savage in this, right?

[2277] And I was like, we do the exact same thing.

[2278] We have all these fucking documentaries.

[2279] We're so excited people did backflips on broken, you know.

[2280] Yeah, feet.

[2281] Yes.

[2282] What is different about this?

[2283] We're just like, now we're in this phase of Chinaphobia.

[2284] So what they're doing is unique.

[2285] Yeah.

[2286] And then not to make excuses for the Russians, but then when it was in Sochi, there's all these articles that they rounded up dogs and killed them.

[2287] It sounds horrific, right?

[2288] Yeah.

[2289] It is horrific.

[2290] Yeah.

[2291] But we killed several million dogs in this country.

[2292] We also round up dogs.

[2293] Put them in, you know, the kennel.

[2294] And then if they don't get adopted, we kill them.

[2295] So it's just a little pop call on the kettle black.

[2296] Yeah, you're right.

[2297] Yeah.

[2298] And it's all just perpetuating like, oh, now we've got to be afraid of them.

[2299] Oh, now they got to be afraid.

[2300] And nationalism.

[2301] Like, we don't do that.

[2302] They do that.

[2303] Or, you know, I think a lot of countries' stance right now on gay issues is deplorable.

[2304] It's absolutely deplorable.

[2305] And at the same time, I don't think we get to stand on a fucking, you know, on an ivory tower or moral high ground judging those people because just five years ago it was illegal to get married so yeah those are the only things like we can also we can also push for progress yes we can push for progress without a position of superiority and arrogance is really what i'm striving for i agree yeah thanks for letting me preach you're welcome you're the cult leader so you get no armchair is not a cult please buy one of the sweatshers that states that plainly um i love you.

[2306] Love you.

[2307] And happy birthday.

[2308] Thanks.

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