#236 – Jimmy Pedro: Judo and the Forging of Champions

[0] The following is a conversation with Jimmy Pedro, a legendary judo competitor and coach.

[1] He represented the United States at four Olympics in 92, 96, 2000, and 2004, winning a bronze medal at two of them.

[2] He meddled in three world championships, winning gold in 1999.

[3] He has coached many of the elite -level American judoka, including Kayla Harrison, Ronda Rousey, Travis Stevens, and many others.

[4] plus he's not my judo coach along with Travis Stevens and now a quick few second summary of the sponsors check them out in the description it's the best way to support this podcast first is roca my favorite sunglasses and prescription glasses second is athletic greens the all -in -one nutrition drink i drink twice a day third is ladder a service that helps you find life insurance fourth is linode Linux virtual machines and Fifth is Masterclass, online courses from world class experts.

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[86] This is the Lex Friedman podcast, and here's my conversation with Jimmy Pedro.

[87] What is the most beautiful throw in judo to you?

[88] I think, Uchimata.

[89] It's the one that seems to have the most amplitude, A person goes the highest.

[90] You see a leg swing through the middle, the person doing the throw.

[91] There's a leg swinging through the middle.

[92] The other person definitely goes, you know, head over heels, flat on their back.

[93] It's probably the most dynamic, pretty judo throw there is.

[94] Okay, so it's a single, you're standing on a single foot, and you're raising your other foot in the air, and it's a forward throw, which means your back is facing the opponent.

[95] but they kind of both fly through the air and twist through the air.

[96] Correct.

[97] Yeah, so how does that throw work?

[98] What are the principles behind that throw?

[99] It's one of those throws that, you know, people can kind of understand how to pick up another human being in sort of trivial ways.

[100] But the itchamata, to me, never quite made sense, like why it works.

[101] There's a cork, there's a twisting motion.

[102] There's some involvement.

[103] of the hip, but not, it's not really a hip throw because the hip is not all the way over, so it's not, it's a very confusing throat.

[104] Can you say something?

[105] It's probably one of the most difficult throws to learn as well, because it is so complex.

[106] You do have to stand on one leg, balance on one leg, you know, swing your other leg through the middle, hold your opponent up in the air, and it's hard to, it's hard to make that contact with upper body to your back.

[107] know, you have to turn your back on the throw as well.

[108] So how does it work?

[109] It's definitely sort of a throw where you need to start pulling your opponent's upper body towards you, right?

[110] So their upper body starts coming toward you.

[111] Your legs go towards them as your body starts to go into the throw.

[112] So your head is going to go left, let's say.

[113] Your body, your legs are going to go to the right.

[114] Your partner is going to start to lean towards you.

[115] And just as you start to get, get their momentum coming forward, your leg is going to sweep up underneath theirs, pick them up onto your hip, right?

[116] And then the finish of the throw is a twist.

[117] And a lot of times the good judoka will leave their feet when they do the throw.

[118] So both bodies are in the air together.

[119] And then the thrower comes down on top of the person being thrown.

[120] So all four feet are in the air.

[121] Correct.

[122] So there's just this unstoppable forces to it.

[123] So you're all in the air.

[124] You're basically doing a roll together.

[125] Correct.

[126] Okay.

[127] So who, to you is the best Uchimada, who has the, besides yourself.

[128] I'm not going to lie.

[129] There's plenty of guys that do Ushamara a lot better than I do.

[130] You do have a nice video about the Uchamata online, but who's a great practitioner of the Ichamata to you?

[131] Right now, Shohay Ono, who's two -time Olympic gold medalist.

[132] That's his favorite throw.

[133] And there's tons of highlight videos on the IJF and judo fanatics showing how he does his Uchimata.

[134] and it is quite different than everybody else's.

[135] But it's unstoppable.

[136] When he comes in, nobody stops it.

[137] He's won two goals in a row at the Olympics.

[138] I think maybe in the last eight years, the guys lost two matches.

[139] You know, he's just incredible.

[140] At a very competitive division, I guess, 73 kilos?

[141] Okay.

[142] And then three -time world champ, too.

[143] Is he the greatest of all time?

[144] Hugh?

[145] The other reason why he's not is because Nomora is a 60 -kil player.

[146] He was three -time Olympic champion.

[147] so no more i mean unless ono is going to stick around for another three years and win again in uh win again here in paris that's you know then he'd match what no more did but three -time gold medalist in judo in a lightweight division that's pretty spectacular so to you the being able to win a championship world championship or olympic medal is a measure of greatness it's not like um you have some people who are not as accomplished, like Koga or something like that, but just the beauty, the moments of magic, the number of moments of magic is the highest, even if it's not championships.

[148] I think you have to go by that because there's so many phenomenal judo players that have come through the system of spectacular judo.

[149] You have won countless major events, but the ability to pull it together, right, at those magical moments, the pinnacle of the sport.

[150] the world championships, the Olympic games, and proving that you can do it time and time again makes you unstoppable, it makes you the best.

[151] You know, there was a guy back in the 70s and 80s by the name of Fuji, and he won four world championships back to back.

[152] And back then, the world's was every two years.

[153] So he was, here he was, a four -time world champion.

[154] That's eight years the top of the sport.

[155] He never won an Olympic medal.

[156] You know, he never went to the Olympics.

[157] You know, so there's a guy who missed out on Olympic greatness but was arguably the best competitor back in that period.

[158] By the way, same Fuji as Fuji?

[159] Right.

[160] Really?

[161] Okay.

[162] Wow, I didn't know that was an actual guy, Fuji.

[163] Our brand is named after the mountain, Mount Fuji.

[164] Okay.

[165] But, you know, this is a different guy.

[166] His name was Fuji.

[167] All right.

[168] Well, history rhymes.

[169] What about Teddy Reneer?

[170] Ten -time World Champ, I think.

[171] Two -time gold medal.

[172] at the Olympics, two times bronze medalist at the Olympics, probably the most dominant judoka ever.

[173] Is he in the running?

[174] What do you think about that guy?

[175] I think he's a freak of nature, Teddy.

[176] You know, if you look at the size, just how big he, how tall he is, how big he is, how physical he is of a specimen.

[177] Like, I sat next to him on a bus, and, like, his legs are literally the size of my waist.

[178] Yeah.

[179] Like, when you sit next to him and just look at the size.

[180] side he's a big man you know so obviously to win 10 world titles in the sport of judo i mean it that's uh that's almost an incomprehensible feat uh two -time olympic champion again um you know that puts him in one of the maybe 10 or 12 people to ever do that in the history of the of the sport so he's definitely got to be in the running for for the best but you know technically I don't think he's as technical as some of the other.

[181] In terms of pure judo finesse technique, you know, he's powerful, he's explosive, he's dominant, he's strong.

[182] Teddy also grips really, really well, which makes him that much tougher to beat.

[183] Because a lot of times heavyweights, especially the heavyweight division, a lot of them just grab the ghee and they go, you know, man to man and judo to judo and take shots at each other.

[184] and that's why a lot of them end up getting beat.

[185] But Teddy's in control.

[186] Like positionally, he stays in really good position and he controls his opponent the whole fight.

[187] So they really don't have a chance against them.

[188] He doesn't give them a chance to beat him, which is why he's been so dominant.

[189] But he's not really stalling.

[190] So, I mean, he does have a really nice Osorogari, this backward trip, outside trip, in case people don't know.

[191] I mean, he has just, like, technically pretty good throws.

[192] and for heavyweight.

[193] Heavy weights can be sometimes messy with their judo.

[194] He's pretty technical and clean in the execution of his big throws, but a lot of that probably has to do with the dominant gripping that he does.

[195] It's not defensive gripping, it's offensive gripping, but the dominant gripping.

[196] 100%.

[197] He controls the grips.

[198] He controls the movement of the match as a result of that, and then he creates his own openings.

[199] So, I mean, for a heavyweight, phenomenal technique, yes.

[200] And what you said, messy, I'd like to call it sloppy, right?

[201] A lot of the heavyweights tend to be sloppy.

[202] They've fallen on the ground a lot.

[203] It's hard to move somebody that weighs 350 pounds.

[204] You know, it's hard to get that body moving and just with a simple pull motion.

[205] So he's definitely found a way to do it.

[206] But he's also, I don't know, 6 '8, you know, he probably weighs 140 kilos.

[207] He's a big boy.

[208] But he had this winning streak of just, I don't know how long, but like over 100 matches.

[209] And he lost at this Olympics that we just went through the 20, I don't even know what to call it, 2021 Olympics.

[210] I don't know the proper terminology.

[211] Tokyo 2020.

[212] Tokyo 2020, all right.

[213] So he lost to Tamerland Bashav.

[214] I mean, it's always sad to see a sort of greatness come to an end.

[215] It's like Karelin in wrestling and Greco -Roman.

[216] Did you shed a bit of a tear to see greatness go?

[217] Or is just the way of life?

[218] I mean, what did you think about sort of this dominance, this run of dominance being stopped?

[219] I think, I mean, it's obviously sad to see.

[220] I love seeing champions succeed, especially people that are good people.

[221] And I think Teddy's a good person.

[222] I mean, I think there's some arrogant champions that everybody, would like to see lose just because they don't want to deal with their personality.

[223] But I think Teddy's a very humble champion.

[224] You know, he's a people's champion.

[225] You know, he's, I think he's been privileged and he makes good money from the sport of judo and the French Federation has taken care of him well.

[226] So he's a lifelong judo icon.

[227] So it's sad to see somebody like that get beat, especially when this could have been, you know, his third Olympic title and, you know, just.

[228] put him in infamy, you know, so it was sad to see, but I think, you know, every athlete goes through it, right?

[229] I mean, you, it's just, that's what the Olympics is all about.

[230] The great ones fall sometimes.

[231] And, um, especially in judo.

[232] Right.

[233] It's like so, like, the margin of error, I mean, I guess the other question I want to ask here is, in your sense, how difficult it is to not lose for so long.

[234] It seems like in judo, like a little mistake.

[235] and it's over.

[236] There's no coming back.

[237] And Ypon means it's over.

[238] So how difficult does that?

[239] It's hard to stay that dominant without question.

[240] First of all, when you are the entire world is training against you just to beat you.

[241] They're studying every single movement.

[242] They're studying patterns.

[243] They're trying to break it down and find a flaw in your game.

[244] So everybody's hunting for you when you're the best in the world, especially at the Olympics.

[245] That's the one to beat you at.

[246] So everybody's focused on.

[247] you.

[248] And then there's an incredible amount of pressure on that athlete to perform.

[249] You know, you carry the flag for your country, you know, when you're at opening ceremonies sometimes, you know, there's all spotlight is on you.

[250] And it's particularly hard when things don't go well early.

[251] You know, in other words, when you're expected to win and then all of a sudden, now you're in a hard fight and it's not going the way you want, that pressure, the one who's the favorite feels the pressure the most at the Olympics.

[252] And that's why I think the other ones are able to win it i've actually never gotten a chance to listen to teddy renair sort of explained ideas behind his judo like i wonder what his mental game is like because i think his english is pretty not very good and so um and i just haven't seen good interviews but it's always fascinating to there's certain great athletes that are also great thinkers and speakers like um the setia brothers in wrestling again not meaning that that's on my to do list 100 % I'm going to a Dagestan and talking to them because they're brilliant but to be able to sort of maybe after retirement to think back what were the systems involved both on the technical the training side and then the mental side because like to stay that dominant just like you're saying everybody's studying to beat you and the heavyweights are just these powerful dudes to be able to control them with your game and like the game that everybody knows is coming is I don't know I don't know what's behind that but there's got to be it feels like the mental game is exceptionally important I think a lot of people underestimate just how important that that side is being mentally prepared for victory mentally prepared to be the best to stay the best.

[253] There's nobody that's weak -minded that they can accomplish that.

[254] You know, it's 100 % confidence and belief in yourself.

[255] If we take a big picture view then, not necessarily Tater -Rin -Air, but if you want to go from the very beginning from day one of judo class to Olympic champion or Olympic medalist, what does it take to become an Olympic medalist from start to finish?

[256] Like, how many different trajectories do you see?

[257] Or is there some unifying principles?

[258] I think a lot of it has to, your journey is going to depend a lot by where you're from.

[259] So a path that an American might take versus somebody who's from Japan or somebody who's from Europe.

[260] There's two, very, three very distinct paths, right?

[261] Because, you know, in Japan, it's part of the culture.

[262] There's a system of excellence.

[263] There's, you know, there's elementary school judo.

[264] There's junior high school.

[265] there's high school, there's collegiate, there's Olympic, and, you know, much like our wrestling is here in the United States, right?

[266] It's very similar.

[267] There's youth wrestling.

[268] There's high school, there's NCAA, and then there's Olympic wrestling.

[269] And, you know, when you, your country is a factory of producing athletes at the highest level, then all of those top athletes typically go back into the sport and there's professions for them.

[270] They have an opportunity to coach at all those different levels.

[271] And just the level of their game and the expertise that all of them have, even down at the elementary level, make their skill so solid.

[272] And as a coach, in that situation, you can just sit back and watch who stands out as opposed to, I think in America, I guess, you would need to craft.

[273] You don't get to choose from a thousand people, a few people but that naturally stand out at the age of nine, you have to actually, whatever the natural resources you're given, craft them into a champion.

[274] So if we look at that, the American way, where you just have a person with a smile, show up to your dojo, says I want to be an Olympic medalist, what process do you take them through?

[275] The odds are really insurmountable.

[276] It's a very, very high hill to climb.

[277] And there's only a few people and there's only a few coaches in this entire country that really understand that process and they can help people reach that level as it's been proven, right?

[278] Number one, you certainly have to have a solid base, a fundamental base of an expectation of what the training is going to be.

[279] And it has to be a level of professionalism very, very early where you're teaching all the basic judo moves, all the basic fundamental movements.

[280] movements, posture, gripping, well, maybe gripping doesn't come in so early in the game, but throwing methodology, movements, naiwasa position, standing fundamental throws, and I think most importantly is really the work ethic, just the way you're going to train, the intensity you're going to train with, the ability to, you know, mindset of going to tournaments constantly.

[281] You need, you know, in order to compete with the rest of the world, our young kids need to be tested a lot when they're young.

[282] They have to be put through adversity because they don't get put through adversity in training because you don't have that many good training partners.

[283] So you get put through adversity in competition.

[284] And then do we see what your weaknesses are and we continue to make improvements on those?

[285] But the journey is, it's long.

[286] And until they're kind of at the teenage years, they're going to have to pretty much stay domestic, right?

[287] Because they've got to go through life as a normal kid.

[288] But they've got to be training in the dojo at least, you know, days a week.

[289] You know, sometimes they might want to get, you know, an extra technical workout in or doing some base conditioning in addition to that.

[290] And then really at the teenage years, that's where we really, we've struggled in America of keeping teens in the sport of Judo as well as developing them properly.

[291] Because up until around the teenage years, I think the Americans are on par with the rest of the world in terms of technique and in terms of skill.

[292] and we've proven we can compete with the rest of the world up until that age.

[293] But that's where Japan and that's where the Europeans and the countries that are strong in Judo, that's where they put a lot of time, energy, and effort.

[294] Is it to the teens where they have a great coaching staff?

[295] They have good training camps with 800, 1 ,000 people going to them every single weekend.

[296] When you say teens, what do you mean?

[297] Do you mean literally like 13?

[298] Yeah, 13 to 17, 13.

[299] to 19.

[300] And that's where, sort of, that's when you really accelerate your development.

[301] So you're saying like in America, when you're young, like before, you know, 9, 10, 11, 12, you stick in judo.

[302] You can progress quite a bit.

[303] But then I guess the other competition there, if you're into two people, you know, doing stuff to each other in a combative way, the other competitor in America is wrestling.

[304] So judo almost primes you, like it teaches you how to be a great wrestler as well.

[305] And so then you have to have a hard decision because you can probably be a collegiate wrestler.

[306] You have like a clear plan of where you're going to go if you want to be a wrestler.

[307] Where judo, that plan is more, is less clear.

[308] So you have to be on your own a bit with your coach that kind of thing exactly okay so when you're on your own with your coach to me that's just a fascinating journey because then it's just like the purity of it it's the coach and the athlete and the dream it's all about the dedication the five six seven days a week competing what once a month twice a month okay and just but also you probably don't have that conversation i don't know if you do maybe you do saying like we're going to do this for the next eight years right do you ever said that would you just do it take it the david gagan's way which is like let's just take it one step at a time let's hope we're there in eight years yeah let's hope we're there do you like actually like right now you have to think about the the olympics is going to be in los angeles in twenty twenty eight so it's really interesting now now would be the time and now is the time to identify talent and get commitment out of students that in seven years you can make a U .S. Olympic team because we're going to have a full team.

[309] America is going to have 14 athletes compete in those games, one in every way class.

[310] So now is the time.

[311] If you're going to go on a journey to the Olympics and stay with the sport of judo, now would be the time to do it.

[312] You know?

[313] And so what you show up to the Patriot Judo Center and how much?

[314] how much drilling, how much technique strategy discussions, how much Randori or like live sparring, how much conditioning and training, how much of all that?

[315] How much of cross -training to other gyms or something like that?

[316] Traveling abroad.

[317] Is there something to be said about some aspects of that system?

[318] For sure.

[319] You need it all.

[320] What you just said, you needed all of it.

[321] And we do do all of that.

[322] Right now we have a young group of kids at the academy.

[323] You'll see.

[324] tonight.

[325] Some of them are 14, 13, 15, 17.

[326] Are they good?

[327] Yeah, really good.

[328] Okay.

[329] So they're right around your weight, so it'll be perfect.

[330] They're just young boys, but they've been training hard through COVID.

[331] Yeah.

[332] We've been, Travis and myself have been training them.

[333] We share responsibilities.

[334] They're doing Randori like five nights a week.

[335] You know, we have them doing Randori Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays, Fridays, and Sundays is when they're doing Randori.

[336] They're coming to the dojo Friday night and Sunday night to do training.

[337] We also have technical sessions for them.

[338] They're in school now, so it's a little bit challenging, but they come 5 o 'clock in the afternoon and they do a technical session.

[339] Through COVID, they were coming every morning doing technical sessions.

[340] What's the technical session?

[341] It's an hour of repetitive throwing or repetitive drilling to to reinforce movements that we deem important to our successful system.

[342] So, Neuaza positions, groundwork positions where we want them to be put in this position and they're going to drill it 50 times, you know, with resistance in big groups, you know, doing drills over and over again, picking apart the details of the technique and what they're doing wrong, showing them how to fix it.

[343] But now we've done it so much that now we can do a whole drill session with them where they know all the different techniques inside and out and they can move from position.

[344] position to position really quickly.

[345] Do they do it for a period of time, like two minutes, five minutes, or is it like one?

[346] Do they are actually counting?

[347] No, sometimes it's both.

[348] So sometimes we do it for reps, sometimes we do it for time.

[349] Yeah.

[350] So sometimes it might be as many as they can do in 60 seconds or as many as they can do in two minutes.

[351] And sometimes it might just be, I want you to do every position five times.

[352] In terms of throws, we're not talking about it on a crash pad, right?

[353] It's just.

[354] We're talking about free moving around the mat and just dynamically and just throwing.

[355] How many, because as I was mentioning to you offline, Travis threw me a few times a lot of times when he was visiting in Austin.

[356] And I just remembered.

[357] So there's two things.

[358] Fortunately or unfortunately in my life, having gotten a chance to train with folks of that level.

[359] Just cleanness of throw and the power.

[360] And it was very nice.

[361] I immediately actually enjoyed being thrown like that.

[362] To throw a little shade at Craig Jones with this current mat situation is they're very, they were quite thin.

[363] And as Travis commented on, not just the thinness of the mats, but they were laid on like concrete.

[364] Right.

[365] So I felt, I felt, it's like soft until it's not.

[366] But being thrown very cleanly, I just felt like there's.

[367] this is not going to lead to injury.

[368] It was great.

[369] It wasn't injury prone.

[370] But then, as I mentioned to you, the day or two after, my entire leg, one of them, I guess is the left leg, was just black, a bruise.

[371] It didn't hurt too bad, but it was just the body has gotten soft.

[372] So I guess the question I have is, does the body get used to just that number of throws?

[373] just over time, being thrown thousands of times a month?

[374] Unquestionably.

[375] Your body gets used to it.

[376] So it hardens.

[377] It gets really hard, which is why judo is hard to come back to after you've taken a long period of time off because your body is not used to that impact anymore.

[378] I always found out that, you know, when I was training judo a lot, it's hard to shed weight and keep weight off because your body like, you know, it develops like this layer of protection on itself.

[379] that it doesn't want to give up.

[380] Yeah.

[381] You know, when you're sucking a lot of weight, that means you're frail.

[382] And, you know, so I always seem to retain weight more, you know, when you're doing hard judo training as opposed to, you know, losing weight.

[383] It's easy when you go out for runs and things like that to shed the water weight, but to actually keep the pounds off was pretty hard.

[384] Yeah, the body kind of develops, like you said, a level of protection.

[385] What about Durie, just out of curiosity?

[386] Again, I haven't ever had the opportunity to train with folks at a high level.

[387] It's, you know, in jiu -jitsu, there's different gyms at different styles, but I've noticed that at the highest levels, people can go pretty hard in a certain kind of way where it's more technical, and you're not, you're moving at 100%, but the power is not at 100%.

[388] It's a weird little dance.

[389] It's technically, like you're not really forcing stuff.

[390] you're more focused on the right timing, the right positioning of hands and feet and body and all those kinds of things.

[391] You're not like forcing stuff in the way you would in competition, like really the power.

[392] Does that sound similar to you for the way you tried to Durandori?

[393] So there's different styles of judo.

[394] And I'd say the Japanese style, the technical style of judo is exactly what you just talked about.

[395] It's like it's almost like two guys in pajamas, right?

[396] We're not going, we're not using minimal effort, maximum efficiency.

[397] see we're moving around and we're trying to feel that movement and it's timing and finesse and technique and in fun and clean throws and when you you know when you train in japan you can train 15 rounds of randori five minute rounds that's 75 minutes of of straight you know sparring you can do that straight in japan without a problem i mean you'll get tired of course you're going to fall a lot you're going to throw a lot um but it's a very like free feeling um and it's technical as you explained.

[398] But then when you go to Europe and you try to do rounds with the Europeans, they are very physical.

[399] They don't have that same finesse in their training that they do in Japan.

[400] And in Europe, you'd be hard pressed to do eight rounds of Randori in a night.

[401] It's so physically exhausting because so much effort is going into just fighting and fending off the gripping system and the power of your opponent.

[402] You're physically drained after eight rounds of Randori.

[403] So it's a much different feel.

[404] When you say Europe, do you mean Germany, France, Britain, Russia?

[405] Is there a lot?

[406] So there's a kind of similarity to all of those kinds of approaches?

[407] The only difference would be Russia that they do a lot more active drilling, a lot more sequential movement training.

[408] They don't focus as much on Randori.

[409] You'll do much fewer rounds in Russia during training camps than you would in those other countries we just talked about, France, Germany, etc. What about in this kind of American system where you have much less talent to work with, is, do you just select whatever works for the particular athletes or do you have something you prefer in your system?

[410] So you need a combination of all of it.

[411] If you're going to win at the Olympic level, you have to be able to deal with the finesse of the Japanese, the physicality of the Europeans.

[412] You have to focus on the ground, Neuaza aspect, because a lot of people are we, there in the world of the sport of judo that's a chance to win we've sort of developed our american system of judo at least for the last i say probably the last 20 years it'd be the american system of judo which relies heavily on taking the individual and whatever techniques they they do perfecting those techniques and the combinations and other throws that go with those throws but then implementing and overlaying an american system of gripping newasa conditioning mentality, training methodology, like in game planning, you know, to beat your opponents.

[413] And I think that's the secret sauce to success for your Americans because there's no way if we don't have eight partners to train with in a night that are going to give us good rounds, right?

[414] We might have two, you know, so we're going to have the same guy four times, those two people four, you know, two times each.

[415] Now I have four good rounds.

[416] The rest of the rounds, I'm not being pushed to the limit.

[417] So we train differently.

[418] And a lot of times we do a lot of stuff like shark bait when our athletes are preparing for competition or for example when Kayla or Travis were preparing for competition we might only have 20 people in the whole gym work to work out with those two Olympic medalists right and of those 20 people maybe four of them a Travis's size you know maybe there's only one girl in the room for Kayla she's got to train with guys and then the other ones are teenagers that are too weak to train with either one of them so what we would do is just put together four or five people that could you know give them a challenge and we'd line them up and they would do a minute, a minute, a minute, a minute, and they'd do five minutes in a row as hard as they can.

[419] That person can go hard for a minute with Travis or Kayla.

[420] They can't go five minutes hard, but they can go one minute hard.

[421] So it made their training much, much more intense, much more physically demanding.

[422] And then rinse and repeat that six times or eight times in a night, you know, they just got 40 minutes of intense Randori.

[423] The person that was training with them that wasn't as good only had to do six or eight minutes of training the whole night yeah you know so it's so difficult because then you look at like the russian national team and you have just the world champions and so um or you even have like um what is the tom brands and terry brands and the in the wrestling system you have like these people it's a small group of people but they're all some of the best people in the world and they're going head to head.

[424] And yeah, you don't necessarily get a good look and a variety of styles, but just the quality is there.

[425] And even that is missing for people your size in America.

[426] And that is so difficult to work with, which makes Scala's and makes Travis' story that much more amazing.

[427] You mentioned kind of picking whatever the set of techniques, the athlete is naturally good at or prefers or whatever.

[428] How much specialization is there?

[429] Maybe if I give you two choices, is it good to have, like, one throw and try to become the best person in the world at that throw, or do you want to have a bunch of stuff, like a variety of throws?

[430] Well, for Travis, it was Epon Sanagi.

[431] That was his main throw, right?

[432] But from that Epon Sanagi, he had a variety of other attacks he could do, you know, that mixed it up so that you kept people guessing.

[433] Maybe it wasn't the Epon Seaway was coming, and maybe it was the Koshi Groomer that he did.

[434] Or maybe it was the Epoen to Osoto that he did in combination.

[435] So you typically have one main throw that you do.

[436] For me, it was Tai Otoshi.

[437] For Kaler, it was her Ogoshi.

[438] For Travis, it was his epon, Sayanagi.

[439] But then you come up with the variety of other throws that you do from the very same grip.

[440] So whatever grip you take for your main throw, you want to develop, you know, an arsenal of attacks that go in all different directions holding that same grip.

[441] so you keep your opponent guessing as to what's coming.

[442] Because if they're just sitting on one technique at the highest level of sport, with the exception of a few, right?

[443] We talked about Ono's Uchimada.

[444] With the exception of a few, most of the world catches on pretty quick on how to beat you.

[445] There is something to just sticking, making sure you really dedicate to the main thing.

[446] So for Travis, that would be like the main version of his Sayanagi.

[447] Like really making sure you don't forget to really put.

[448] put in the time on that because I mean one way to say it is that threat being dangerous opens up a lot of things but also I don't know I think I'm just as a fan I think it it's sad when like elite level athletes in all like combat sports kind of start taking their main thing for granted like they think okay I've figured that part Now I'll be working on all this whole system on variations, on different setups, on lefty versus some weird variation as opposed to, you know what, if you look at some of the best people ever, they seem to have not cared about variations at all.

[449] They're just like literally, they are more like Jiro Dreams of Sushi and like fine -tuning their ear, their ability to detect the minute movements.

[450] give you an opening on that main thing.

[451] And so the whole time, you're just waiting for that throw.

[452] You're, like, dancing with a little bit of pressure and, like, releasing the pressure and putting the pressure, maybe a little bit off balance and finding, like, the right moment to strike and focusing on that.

[453] Again, maybe that's just, like, a romanticization of, like, the simplicity of that.

[454] Maybe it is kind of impossible to do that on the large scale, but I just, um, Yeah, I don't know if you can comment on that, whether there is some value and still putting in like tens of thousands of reps on the main, main thing.

[455] Well, unquestionably, that has to happen.

[456] You still have to drill your main throw and you have to fine -tune it and continue to do, you know, repetition after repetition and throws on the crash pad, you know, or throws on the mat moving around, just explosive movements doing your main technique.

[457] You're never going to forget that and you're not going to put it to the side and not practice it anymore.

[458] It still has to be part of your repertoire and part of your daily training.

[459] But you do have to evolve.

[460] And I think that's the sport of judo makes you evolve.

[461] You know, when I look at, we talk about Koga from before, right?

[462] And we talked about he had a dynamic epaul and say in Agi that nobody could stop for years and years and years.

[463] But when people started to, you know, be unorthodox and come down his back and cross grip him and he couldn't get to the lapel, he had to come up with something else.

[464] And all of a sudden you saw Koga doing, now he did a so day.

[465] or now he did a Tomoy Nagy, which so he can, he added to his arsenal, you know, to keep people thinking, keep people guessing.

[466] So it's not, you're not just that one -trick pony.

[467] They still couldn't stop his ipon, Sanagi, once he got that grip.

[468] But if they stopped them from getting that grip or putting two ends on the ghee, he had to go to something else.

[469] And that's what he did.

[470] Does Travis's or Koga's Sanagi make sense to you, that weird, so when I could, because split hip, it's a split hip, so I don't know if you know this, but like, I got into judo because of Travis.

[471] I watched him with 2008 Olympics, and there's something about like just not the cockiness, but the confidence and just the refusal to quit, the refusal to just that energy, whatever it connected with me is like, oh, that guy's badass.

[472] I want to be badass like that.

[473] And then I also, there happened to be in a university judo, and I got into it and just fell in love with the elegance and the beauty and the power of the sport.

[474] But also, I started to mimic Travis' game, his and Kogas.

[475] And then the instructors I worked with, they said, that's the wrong way to do it.

[476] And I never found somebody that told me, like, no, that's not the wrong way.

[477] There's a lot of ways to do it.

[478] And there's, like, the classic way.

[479] And you have to understand it.

[480] And you have to learn it.

[481] But this is not the wrong way.

[482] Because I was trying to find somebody who understands this, though, because it was so beautiful.

[483] at the highest level, especially with Koga, the way you're able, the quickness with which you can strike, the fact that you can stand on the feet and the elevation you can get and the power you can get.

[484] It has certain throws just, like, Uchimada doesn't look powerful.

[485] It's just like, it looks effortless.

[486] But like the standing Sainagi with a split hip, it just looks powerful because there's a, you're like you're stepping into them you're lifting the opponent and they still have they're not surprised they're now like helpless right their feet are fluttering in the air so and then there's just this this pause and then just big slam with the ushamara it's almost like you don't know what hit you it's like tie to she's the same it's almost like a surprise like oh shit i'm now on my back and um so i i just i just love that throw but like it didn't make sense to me like when trying to explain it to others when trying to learn it didn't make sense to me how it works does it make sense to you it does yeah I'm a I was born a Jodoka right so I I've lived this stuff since I was an infant and I've seen every style and every technique the split hip say and Igie is is difficult to learn it's harder to learn than the the basic form but it is powerful and it does upon entry both your opponent's feet leave them at the same time.

[487] So you've got them.

[488] Once you enter, you've got to finish, right?

[489] You just got to lock them and turn and go.

[490] So it makes sense to me. My dad did teach me how to do that when I was younger.

[491] Yeah, he wanted me to do a split hip.

[492] We have kids at the school today that we teach the split hip Sayanagi, same way.

[493] Because it is that dynamic, right?

[494] You don't drop to the ground and roll and turn.

[495] It's not the classic form where you're giving way to your opponent.

[496] It's actually, you go pick the guy up in the air and then you slam him.

[497] So, Okay.

[498] Beautiful.

[499] So maybe on a small tangent, so we're talking about elite level athletes in terms of Randori, in terms of like drilling for more recreational athletes.

[500] Like, you know, I have personally that situation going on, but there's other people that are just recreationally training judo.

[501] How do you recommend they improve judo?

[502] Like, if I wanted to compete a bunch and do reasonable with a person, particular set of throws, say the split, uh, uh, Sanagi.

[503] So how do you, how do you do you do the Randori?

[504] Do you use a crash pad to get in reps?

[505] Do you like, what do you recommend?

[506] So I guess there's two recreational people that we're talking about.

[507] One is somebody who wants to learn judo and become good at judo, but don't doesn't necessarily want to compete, but just wants to get better.

[508] And I think there's not enough emphasis in this country on on just that, on paying attention to that type of student.

[509] Everybody pushes them to competition.

[510] But in reality, there's a huge audience of people out there that would love to learn judo and be very proficient at judo and have the skills to go execute if they ever needed it.

[511] And there's a class and there should be a program for that athlete.

[512] And that athlete does not need to do Randori.

[513] Like the sport of judo is physical enough where you're picking somebody up all the time and moving their body weight around the mat all the time where you can get very physically strong, very physically fit, technically you'll be better than somebody that does Randori more than you because if you learn good technique and you'll learn the movement and you'll learn the feel and you move the, learn the timing, you'll actually be a better athlete than the person that just focuses on Randori who does ugly technique and wins with force.

[514] So, you know, we have a recreational class at our school where they don't do any Rendori.

[515] They have an option afterwards if they want to stay for 15 minutes or stay for 30 minutes where they can participate in Randori.

[516] but most of the adult students choose not to because they're already so tired from the other, you know, hour class.

[517] Right.

[518] They're already dripping sweat.

[519] They're already like, if you, you know, work hard and drill hard, it's an intense workout.

[520] You're exhausted.

[521] You know, so that's a specific set of a program, I should say, at every academy.

[522] And then if you want to get good and you want to compete, then to me, once you have your techniques, it's learning how to, implement a good gripping system to put yourself in a position where you can always, you know, dominate the grips, control the movement, initiate the reactions from your opponent, and then have the opportunity to attack and score.

[523] And I think that when people train with or when they jump into a higher level of the sport of judo, all of a sudden the first thing they say is, I can't attack.

[524] I don't know how to attack because positionally, they don't know where to put their hands.

[525] They don't know how to hold the ghee properly.

[526] They don't understand that they're, you know, they have an inferior grip and they don't know how to get into better position so they can attack.

[527] And that's a big part of the game that not a lot of people really understand.

[528] So you really, even for recreational competitors, you really need to have a gripping system.

[529] You need to understand the gripping system.

[530] If you want to win.

[531] Yeah.

[532] I mean, if the goal is to go and compete, that's a different story.

[533] I don't have fun getting beat up or losing in competitions.

[534] I enjoy the I don't even know if it's the winning or the losing I don't I think this is what because I competed a lot in both judo and jihitsu and in judo it feels like because I didn't have a gripping system it feels like you're not even playing judo against the the good black belts you're they're just they're not they're not even trying because they have they get a certain kind of grip and you just can't do anything and I don't have a good answer for that I don't even know what I'm looking for.

[535] And so it's not even, it's not like even losing.

[536] It's like, I don't know, it's like didn't even show up to play is what it feels like.

[537] And it's unfortunate, and I think that is a big gap in knowledge, actually, in judo schools is the gripping part.

[538] When you first go out to do judo, right, the first thing you have to do is you have to grab your opponent, right?

[539] And a lot of times I hear coaches say, get a grip.

[540] Just take a grip.

[541] Well, sometimes if you take a grip, you're in a worse position than not having a grip at all.

[542] That's what a lot of people don't understand.

[543] Like if you hold the ghee in the wrong way, your opponent can attack you, but you can't attack him.

[544] So why would you ever do that grip if it's only to your detriment?

[545] Right?

[546] So that's, and the way you grip does set up what attacks you can do as well.

[547] So that is a huge part.

[548] And I'm not saying that you have to be 100 % disciplined and always outgrip your opponent and only be able to do throws when you have a superior grip.

[549] I'm just saying that to be able to put the grips together with the throws and understand the movements is going to make you that much ahead of the game.

[550] So if we take a step to our previous discussion of going from zero to hero, so going from the early days through the teenage years to winning an Olympic medal, So we mentioned a lot of training, the dedication of the training, the competing, what other elements are there?

[551] The mental side is visualization believing that you could perform at that level.

[552] So what else can you say about that?

[553] I think that comes at the highest level, the visualization, the success, that comes at the highest level.

[554] I think in the teen years, there's the experience plays a huge role in getting to train with other people.

[555] Like, as Americans, we have to go train in Europe.

[556] We have to feel the European style of judo.

[557] We have to understand that physicality.

[558] They grip very differently.

[559] They put you in very unorthodox positions.

[560] And if you don't know how to deal with that, you get thrown before you even have a chance to try your own throws.

[561] You know, so it takes a lot of, it takes a lot of that experience and understanding what's going on.

[562] And then you also need to get that physicality.

[563] You need to be physical, you know, strong and hard.

[564] I would say, by doing all those rounds with the Europeans.

[565] And at the same time, you need to go to Asia and you need to train in Japan because you need to feel that free -flowing judo for your technical, the technical side.

[566] And I think that's one of the things that I was able to benefit from.

[567] My dad was a coach who said, listen, I've taken you as far as I can take you.

[568] I want you to go to the next level.

[569] I want, you know, he sent me to England with Neil Adams, who was an Olympic silver medalist and was a world champion and had a great ground game and was good at gripping.

[570] and actually did Tiao Toshi, which is the throw I did.

[571] So I said, I want you to go learn from Neil.

[572] And I ended up going to England probably eight to ten times in my career and spending a good amount of time there, training at the Neil Adams Academy.

[573] He's now the voice of judo, Neil Adams.

[574] What do you make of that guy?

[575] Just a brief pause.

[576] He's like Morgan Freeman is the voice of March of the Penguins and any other nature documentary.

[577] And Neil Adams is very few sports that have a Neil Adams, I would say, because he's legitimately, maybe like Joe Rogan is that from mixed martial arts.

[578] It's just like an exceptionally recognizable voice.

[579] He's really knowledgeable.

[580] Also, the passion is conveyed so well.

[581] Like, many times I'll watch just because he's talking.

[582] Right.

[583] So who is he, since he gotten a chance to train with him, to learn from him, who's Neil Adams?

[584] He's a great friend of mine.

[585] He is.

[586] He's a mentor.

[587] Like I said, I lived and trained at the Neil Adams Club in Kemp.

[588] Coventry, England, since I was like 16 years old.

[589] I went and visited him for the first time.

[590] He's the one who originally taught me how to do Jujigatami and the way I do Juji Gatami.

[591] I trained with him.

[592] He was just retired.

[593] He was in his early 30s when I first went out there.

[594] And, you know, so I trained with him many times.

[595] And over the years, he was a mentor.

[596] Great person, you know, cares about people, cares about, you know, the sport of judo.

[597] had a good little club that was a fitness club and you know it was it was judo it was fitness it you know used to go there i'd show up at that place at like seven in the morning and the first thing we would do is we'd go for a run and we'd either be running mountains or we'd be doing a five -mile run or we'd be doing something at the park we were doing sprints and buddy carries and all this stuff and then at nine a m we'd have a technical session with neil adams where he would you know for an hour and a half we would drill techniques and learn positions and it was no randori it was that sequential drilling that we talked about before right where you're reinforcing your your two or three attacks to set up your main attack or if you're on the ground you're going through repetitions of certain movements um and then i'd spend all afternoon at the club have lunch i'd go do my weight training in the afternoon at that at that place and then in the evening we would either do randori training at the nail adams club or we would all get in a car and we'd drive to another location you know and we'd go train in another club that might be an hour away and there'd be you know 50 bodies there to train with and each night we'd go to a different dojo and so it would be all day at the club and i'd do that for like three weeks straight you know all we do was try do you know how he became the voice of judo do you have an understanding of what he's thinking is around like how much he dedicates of himself to just commentating on you.

[598] I imagine the amount of research required, but also just like psychologically, just the excitement he has in his voice, it takes work to do that.

[599] Do you have an understanding of like what his vision is with that?

[600] He's always been a very charismatic, animated person, Neil.

[601] You know, very passionate and loud and, you know, funny.

[602] And the Brits are very funny to begin with.

[603] So he's, he's, you know, very charismatic.

[604] But I think after coaching.

[605] He tried coaching.

[606] He coached the country of Wales for a while.

[607] He tried coaching stints in other countries.

[608] He didn't have a lot of success on the coaching side developing an Olympic champion.

[609] I know that was a goal of his that he was a world champion.

[610] I think it was 1981.

[611] He won two silver medals in the Olympic Games himself.

[612] He went on to coach for a while and had some political issues with the country of England for a while.

[613] And then left England and went to Wales and I think he had a coach instance somewhere else as well.

[614] Didn't have a lot of success coaching in the sport with athletes, not at the highest level, had a great national team and things like that.

[615] He was really good at teaching his technique to others because he helped me a lot.

[616] But running a program, I think, was difficult for him.

[617] You know, the boys not listening and not having that same kind of passion and intensity that he, and that's why I bonded well with him because I was all in, right?

[618] I went there and whatever he said, I did.

[619] I didn't care how how hard, I didn't care how long, I just wanted to get as good as I could.

[620] And so that's why he was a good mentor for me. But now in terms of a commentator, he's very cerebral.

[621] He just, he loves judo.

[622] He, he looks, researches it nonstop.

[623] He's got that great voice, and he knows how to bring life to the game.

[624] And that's what he's done.

[625] And now this is who he is, right?

[626] He does judo full time.

[627] This is his job.

[628] Can I ask you a small before we return to the actual sport the coaching of the sport it's a bit of a political question i did a whole rant before a travis episode um i love neil adams's voice i love watching jito and it's really disappointing to me that uh the iOC and whoever is responsible i don't understand this that they don't make it easy for people to watch the olympics uh in replay for years after Like, I can't watch Travis's matches.

[629] I can't watch, like, they make it very difficult to watch stuff online.

[630] So what happened is I uploaded the Travis Stevens episode, and we talked about his Ole Bischoff 2012 match.

[631] And it was like one minute of, like, a small overlay of the videos.

[632] We're talking through it, like, stepping through it.

[633] And it got taken down immediately from YouTube, the whole four -hour conversation.

[634] because of that one minute little clip.

[635] And the way got taken down automatically is because the IOC has that video uploaded.

[636] It's set to private, but it's uploaded.

[637] So, like, they have the video, and they choose not to show it.

[638] It's not that they're asking for money or whatever.

[639] They're just not showing it anywhere.

[640] They're not showing it through their own service, like NBC Olympics or so on.

[641] There's just so many great human stories that the Olympics reveals, they're just not made easily accessible.

[642] That's the Olympics charter.

[643] You want to, I think the actual line is to ensure the fullest coverage and the widest possible audience in the world for the Olympic Games.

[644] And it seems like to me as a fan of the Olympic Games, we're not getting any of that.

[645] Do you have an understanding of why that is, like why we can't watch Kayla's matches, Travis's matches super easily, even if we're willing to pay money for it.

[646] So you can't go on the International Judo Federation website right now and watch any of the Olympic footage?

[647] No. No, no. So the only thing they have is for certain, for example, Teddy Reneer match he lost.

[648] Not available anywhere.

[649] Really?

[650] And that's like a dramatic thing.

[651] So the one thing they have is for certain sports at the highest level, like gymnastics, they'll have a highlight, which is the most frustrating.

[652] thing to me. Because this is what I can't, I'm going to go, like, I'm going to try to prevent myself from going on a rant.

[653] But, you know, people don't just want to see a two -minute highlight of a historic moment.

[654] They want to see the buildup where the athlete is standing, the nerves, the fear, the confidence.

[655] You see the build -up to the event, say it's the gymnastic, whatever, floor routine.

[656] Like, their name is announced.

[657] They're walking.

[658] The coach.

[659] then they cut to the coach and the coach with anticipation and then go to the athlete.

[660] You want the full 10 -minute thing.

[661] You don't want a two -minute highlight of what happened like last second or whatever.

[662] It's just like the magic of that full story, like a lifetime building up to those 10 minutes, right?

[663] That's the magic of the Olympics, both the drama and the triumph that happens in those moments.

[664] And the fact that you can't relive that, but like Travis had a bunch of those, right?

[665] Like he had a bunch of times he faced like world champions.

[666] Right.

[667] He won and lost and just it's always close.

[668] It's always dramatic.

[669] Right, right, right.

[670] And none of those are available except like maybe the one we beat Arm Bard or whatever the submission was I forgot.

[671] The joke.

[672] The Georgian.

[673] Yeah, the Georgian.

[674] But most things are not.

[675] Usain Bolt, the full races, not all of his races are available online.

[676] The race with the Italian winning the 100 meter track race, this Olympics is not only a highlight is available from what I saw.

[677] I didn't look too hard.

[678] But the fact that it's not super easily accessible if you're willing to pay money even, but probably should be for free, is heartbreaking to me. Because to me, the Olympics is like some of the best of humanity.

[679] Just like, again, the hardship, they have to overcome.

[680] So like the losses are really powerful.

[681] Sure.

[682] Because it's such heartbreak, but it's also like the triumph.

[683] Well, you're losing history.

[684] Yeah.

[685] You're losing history is what you are of all the magical moments of your sport, right?

[686] It's a sin.

[687] I got to blame it on television rights.

[688] money.

[689] It's what it comes down to.

[690] You're talking billions and billions of dollars of television rights paid by NBC here in the United States and globally, whatever the main carriers are and all the other nations that are dictating what can be replayed and what can't.

[691] And it's what it comes down to.

[692] You know, I made a DVD or, you know, a video when I first retired from the sport.

[693] It was called Fury on the Mat.

[694] It was kind of my story, right?

[695] And I did it with a friend who was a videographer, and we grabbed a bunch of my old footage and Olympic footage.

[696] And somebody said to me, you know, you can't use that Olympic footage.

[697] And, you know, I was young and I had just retired.

[698] I said, it would mean I can't use the Olympic footage.

[699] It's not the television footage.

[700] It's my buddy who filmed it with his own camera.

[701] It's my footage.

[702] Yeah, exactly.

[703] You know, and they said, no, if it has Olympics in it or anything to do with the Olympics, the USOC owns it.

[704] Yeah.

[705] I said, okay, well, they said, well, you should got to send it to them and let them, you know, review it.

[706] So I sent it to them, and I got a bill back.

[707] I got a thing back that said, if you want to use this footage, it's going to be like $30 ,000.

[708] And I said, man, it's only like three minutes.

[709] I spliced it up as much as I could, and I only have highlights in there.

[710] And then I said, come on.

[711] I went back and I negotiated with them.

[712] But at the end of the day, I still have to pay like $15 ,000 just to have a few minutes of footage in my own film.

[713] This is.

[714] And I'm thinking, you wouldn't even have that film if I didn't compete in it, you know?

[715] like you can't you know so that was a it was a struggle this is the different like you have the same in uh jiu jitsu there's certain organizations i b bjjj or like flow grappling and flow wrestling i understand i think when it's a business it might make sense first of all you should actually be good at being a business and making money which is why for me the iosc doesn't make sense like it should be accessible but it would cost money uh if if i can't buy it like i would i would i would I have to email them for this footage and pay $30 ,000?

[716] No, but the question is, like, the way you run a business is you make that frictionless.

[717] You, whatever the money is, $30 ,000 or $30.

[718] You make it frictionless and easy to pay that money.

[719] But anyway, I understand why that might be the case will flow grappling, but to me, the Olympics is a special thing.

[720] For sure.

[721] It's like, like you said, it is history.

[722] Like, there's not even, like, even the world championships don't compare.

[723] I understand they're really important, but Olympics is history.

[724] And the stories should certainly belong to the athletes if they want to do like Fear and the Matt to do their own story or like on a podcast to talk about the most tragic moment of their career.

[725] Do you have a sense of how that could be fixed or no?

[726] The only thing I could think of is you'd have to go to the Olympic community.

[727] The U .S. Olympic Committee is the place I would start because the U .S. controls the worldwide market when it comes to television.

[728] We pay the most for our television rights.

[729] Our sponsors pay the most for their rights to be associated with the best team in the world, which is the United States, right?

[730] So all the money starts here.

[731] I got to believe there has to be a way to get that footage that should be accessible to the sports themselves.

[732] I'm surprised it's not.

[733] But if it's not, then it's because of dollars.

[734] You know, it's because people aren't the sport itself is not willing to pay enough money to have it on its you know accessible to its audience yeah it's too cost prohibitive for them to do it no but i think it's also unfortunately might be some mixture of incompetence and just an old way of doing things because um there's a lot of money to be made on television rights where you like live show the event right but what's not being leveraged is the huge amount of money that could be made on the play this is what people don't understand is do you know how many times just the tens of millions of times that people watch individual events years from now you watch like all the videos on youtube they're still getting plays hundreds of millions of views on stuff that happened 10 years ago 15 years ago that that's really powerful and there's a lot of opportunity to make a ton of money sure so it's not that they're necessarily greedy they're also just not good at being greedy Oh, I get me saying, yeah.

[735] It's not the traditional.

[736] You know, think about it, though.

[737] It's not traditional, right?

[738] For television studios, it's non -traditional to go to online streaming, to, you know, online access to information.

[739] It's not hard, right?

[740] Because everybody's doing it now, but it's not typical.

[741] Yeah.

[742] So it requires for the IOC to operate outside their comfort zone.

[743] Well, I definitely hope that's the case.

[744] And since Travis's video got taken.

[745] down it's obvious they have it they have it on their youtube channel so it's like um i'm i hope i hope that they will just release it and for money for whatever but release it and have um that's that history not be erased right it'd be wonderful if athletes would be could buy you know even if you could buy your own footage you can't use it commercially you can't but you can you can buy your own matches and have them available for yourself or package the, you know, the footage it would be to be awesome.

[746] Thank you for that.

[747] It is quite heartbreaking for me. So I wanted to talk about it a little bit.

[748] Let's go to you as an athlete real quick.

[749] Sure.

[750] You represented the United States at four Olympics, winning a bronze medal at two of them.

[751] Who or what was the toughest match or moment you had in those years?

[752] Maybe a moment that defined you that you remember as being particularly defining in your career.

[753] I would say the bronze medal match in Atlanta in 96 because up to that moment the United States team had not won a medal, had not fought for a medal in the games.

[754] We were on our home turf.

[755] It was my second Olympic Games, right?

[756] So I had competed in 92, and I had won two matches and lost in the third round in Barcelona.

[757] I didn't make the podium.

[758] I lost to a Japanese guy from Japan.

[759] But the gold, silver, and bronze medalist at that Olympics in Barcelona were all guys that I had beat.

[760] In fact, two of them I was undefeated against in my entire career, the Brazilian and the Cuban I had never lost to.

[761] So that's when I knew I was capable of being, you know, on the podium at the Olympic Games.

[762] when 96 came around I was 25 years old I was fairly in my prime I had lived in Japan for six months my technique was at a high level you know I was I was you know amongst the best in the world I lost at that Olympics to a guy from Mongolia it was right before the match I was supposed to fight against Japan so I was like anticipating the match against Japan and I got beat by the Mongolian so that was kind of a letdown but the match for the bronze you know, in front of the hometown crowd, all of my family, all of my friends, everybody who would ever help me in the sport were in the stands that day, including all my teammates at Brown University that were on the wrestling team and little, my uncles, my aunts, everybody, everybody was in the stands, right?

[763] So it was like the Jimmy Pedro day.

[764] And I'm getting goosebumps right now talking about it.

[765] But it was a match against the Brazilian for the bronze medal.

[766] I had beaten the Brazilian like two or three times before that.

[767] I found myself down in the match.

[768] He actually countered me. I came in my Tao Toshi and he was waiting for it and he counted me and he scored a Yucco against me. So I was losing the fight.

[769] Came down to about the last minute in the match and I was just tucking in my ghee and fixing my thing and gathering my thoughts together and the whole crowd just started chanting.

[770] USA!

[771] USA!

[772] USA!

[773] And I like literally.

[774] like got so much energy.

[775] I walked out there.

[776] I grabbed the guy.

[777] I came in my Tauotosh again.

[778] He stepped off to Taitoosh.

[779] I threw him with Tuchimada, Fri Pohn.

[780] I won my first Olympic medal in front of the hometown crowd.

[781] Everybody went bananas.

[782] You know, the United States judo team had our first medal from the Olympics.

[783] It ended up being the only Olympic medal we won at that games.

[784] But it was like a magical moment to define my career and solidified myself in like history where, hey, and now I get to step up on the Olympic podium, and I'm an Olympic medalist.

[785] And to me, that was my defining moment.

[786] And after that, I was sold.

[787] Like, man, I had to go back to the Olympics again.

[788] I want to win a gold medal.

[789] I want to do this feeling all over again.

[790] I don't care if I have to wait four years.

[791] Let's do it.

[792] In your career, like moments like that, do you think you love winning or hate losing more?

[793] so do you live for those moments or are you more driven by just how much you hate losing so in order to be a champion my belief is that you have to hate losing more than you like winning hate losing more than you like winning but i live for those moments when you do win and what excited me the most in my career when I was competing was I loved being in the finals.

[794] I love the spotlight being on me. I can't think of too many times in my career.

[795] Of course, there were a few.

[796] But there weren't too many times where the chips were down, like the lights were on, and I didn't win.

[797] I might have lost early in the day and didn't make it to the finals or didn't make it to the medal rounds.

[798] But, like, in my career, I have a ton of golds.

[799] I have a ton of bronzes, which means the lights are on and I won.

[800] And I have very few silvers and very few fifths.

[801] So I either lost in the early rounds and didn't make to the metal rounds in my younger days, or the spotlight came and I really shined.

[802] Because if you look, I don't know how many silvers, but there wasn't very many silver medals in my career that I won.

[803] You know what I mean?

[804] So I just loved that moment.

[805] I didn't feel pressure.

[806] I love the crowd.

[807] I love being in the spotlight.

[808] I wasn't nervous when it came to the finals or I knew I was getting a medal.

[809] It didn't matter.

[810] So it was just me against the other guy and that's how I always saw it.

[811] And I just loved that moment.

[812] So your dad was your coach.

[813] Yeah.

[814] You got to get to meet him tonight.

[815] Oh, great.

[816] He's kind of a legend in the sport.

[817] So how is your dad helped you as a coach, as an athlete, as a human being?

[818] throughout the years.

[819] Number one, my dad is the most brutally honest person you will ever meet in your life, brutally honest.

[820] He will tell you, if you are fat, he will tell you're fat, right, to your face.

[821] He wants you to get better.

[822] He wants you to be healthy.

[823] Yeah.

[824] Doesn't want you to die of obesity.

[825] It's just the way he is.

[826] If you didn't do well, he will not sugarcoat it.

[827] He will let you know what you didn't do right.

[828] So he's the ultimate litmus test.

[829] Yes.

[830] right um second is he is the most passionate caring like deep like always thinking about very cerebral very like um studio a student of the game somebody who helped me immensely in divine defining my strategy um helping me improve and and always you know look for the what's next um in terms of training i think that he's probably the most brilliant brilliant human when it comes to preparing an athlete physically, not to say mentally, physically for success.

[831] When all the chips are down, that athlete will be ready that day.

[832] And he has a system of training and preparing and getting the athletes a peak for performance.

[833] You mean like conditioning, like the whole thing?

[834] Okay.

[835] Because I remember like vaguely, I remember Kayla Harrison talking about her preparation being very difficult.

[836] Yeah.

[837] That's it.

[838] That's him.

[839] Yeah, that's him.

[840] At the sake, do you go back and ask Ronda Rousey about her career, right?

[841] My dad was her coach.

[842] Yeah.

[843] My dad moved her to Camp, New Hampshire in Boston, got her up, ran her in the morning, had her downstairs in the basement of his house, training with the weights.

[844] We brought a Russian girl in.

[845] She did throws on his cement outside with the little crash pad.

[846] Nice.

[847] Through the Russian girl, you know, 100 times that morning.

[848] And And then every night came to Boston, you know, to the training center in Wakefield, trained at night and went back and slept at my dad's house and three weeks straight before she went off to Beijing.

[849] And he did the same with Kayla.

[850] He did the same with me. Like he's just, his passion is producing athletes at the highest level and he knows how to do it.

[851] And then the one side of my dad's coaching where I think there's a flaw or weakness is on the mental preparation side of the game.

[852] He wasn't somebody that was, I don't know if he, maybe because he wasn't an Olympic champion himself and wasn't a world champion, he lacked the confidence in helping others be more confident.

[853] So he's more of a, this is what you need to work on type of thing.

[854] He doesn't know how to build the athletes up to make them feel invincible.

[855] And I feel like that's something that I was able to give all of the athletes to help him with that visualization, belief in yourself, knowing that you're going to win before you step out of the mat, knowing that we've earned the right.

[856] right, to victory, you know, seeing success in your mind, having a positive mantra that you, I'm the best in the world, nobody's beaten me today, type of feeling.

[857] So you go out there feeling like King Kong when you step on the mat, that nobody's going to stop you.

[858] You know, and so I think the combination of both of us as coaches, I'm a lot more technical.

[859] My dad is good at identifying what they need to do for their techniques and what, you know, how to, in strategy, how to beat, opponents and putting game plans together.

[860] So combined, the two of us made an unbelievable team.

[861] So he's not going to let the athlete be soft when they enter the highest, the most difficult competitions of their career.

[862] So on the mental side, what's mental preparation look like?

[863] Like how many years before the Olympics do you start helping an athlete believe that they can win an Olympic medal?

[864] well i think it's got to be a seed in that athlete's brain something they want to do right nobody nobody can quickly get there right it's a long process but if your goal if you're national champion or you've proven yourself to win it in some international tournaments and you think the olympics is a possibility for you then defining it as hey i want to be on the olympic team that would be the first step into you know into um getting ready and you know but you i always make them put it on paper.

[865] You know, if it really is your goal, then you show me that it's your goal and put it on paper and commit to it.

[866] I want to be Olympic medalist.

[867] I want to be an Olympic champion.

[868] I want to go to the Olympics.

[869] World team member, maybe junior world team member, whatever it is, we walk before we go to the highest level.

[870] But if the goal is to go the Olympics, let's accomplish these other things first, right?

[871] Because if we can accomplish these other things, then we're on our way to getting to the ultimate goal, which is the Olympics.

[872] For somebody like Kayla, for example, you know, she didn't, she didn't say that she wanted to be Olympic champion, you know, when she first came here in 2005, right?

[873] We wanted to become national champion, then we wanted to be on the world team, then we wanted to be a world medalist.

[874] Then we, our sights were set on the Olympics or the Olympic gold, you know, so it's having those clearly defined goals that are attainable.

[875] Like, they should be a reach, they should be a stretch, but they have to be attainable.

[876] They can't be just a pipe dream, you know.

[877] But once you put it to paper and you think it's achievable, then it's mapping the plan to get there.

[878] Is there a daily process of visualizing yourself as an Olympic champion or national champion?

[879] Yes, it is.

[880] You should do it either every night before you go to bed or before every training session or after every training session.

[881] those three times it should or first thing you wake up in the morning because it may be to help some people it motivates them to go do what it is they they're supposed to do in the day um but the process of visualization is is to me is closing your eyes for a few moments your brain works really really fast right and it's actually picturing the day in its entirety from start to finish you know from the moment you wake up and you step on the scale to the moment you have your breakfast and you go through your morning routine.

[882] Like, live the day that you're going to have at the Olympics.

[883] So whatever it is you're trying to do, let's say the Olympic day, for example.

[884] Picture yourself making weight.

[885] Picture yourself who you're around, eating your breakfast, you know, having maybe saying a few jokes, laughing.

[886] This is a real day.

[887] Make it real.

[888] Going back and packing your judo bag for the day, you know, getting on the bus, driving to the venue, feel what it's like walking into the stadium, you know, for the first time, going to the warm -up area, seeing your drawer up on the sheet or who you're going to fight that day, watching yourself warm -up, go through your warm -up routine, walking out of the shoot, you know, into the venue, going to do that first fight, picture the moment of throwing your opponent, coming off the mat, high -fiving the coach, getting ready for your second fight.

[889] Like, live the day from start to finish and make it as real as possible.

[890] You know, where all the way to the, moment where you've just won and you're raising your arms in celebration, you're bowing, you're hugging your opponent, you come off the mat, you hug your coach, you're running around the stadium with the flag, you know, you stepped up on the podium, you heard your name, Olympic champion, Jimmy Pedro, like you heard the moment, the, the metal being put around your neck, picture the people coming up on the podium with you, arms around them, taking the pictures, like the more real you can make it, even before it ever happens, right?

[891] When you do that enough times, I feel that like pathways get created for you so that when your body gets to that moment, and I've been here before, this is it.

[892] This is my moment.

[893] This is what I've pictured my whole life.

[894] I'm not nervous because I've seen this.

[895] This is going to happen.

[896] I believe it's possible, right?

[897] And I believe the athletes that do that, and make it real enough that when they get to that moment, they go right through.

[898] There's no hesitation.

[899] This is what this is meant to be.

[900] This is my destiny.

[901] This is why I did everything I did versus the ones that don't think about it ever, but just kind of like hope.

[902] It's not real to them.

[903] It doesn't feel attainable.

[904] They don't believe it's possible.

[905] They haven't committed to believing it was possible.

[906] Without that commitment in yourself and that belief, it can't happen.

[907] And one thing that I'll talk to Travis a bit about this, you probably worked with him on the details of what you're talking about.

[908] But he said that you should really like focus on visualizing like the sensations you feel.

[909] So like say if you're drinking coffee or something like that, you're not thinking about like observing yourself from a third person perspective drinking coffee.

[910] You're thinking of how your hand will feel when it touches something warm.

[911] Like you try to replay the actual sensations you would feel, right?

[912] It sounds kind of strange, but meaning like you really want to put yourself in the body as you would experience those moments, as opposed to like watching yourself on TV experience in those moments, like really be inside.

[913] So that means sensations, like how does it feel when you grip a ghee?

[914] how does it you know um the yeah the the the sweating just the sensation of sweat like rolling down your forehead or whatever like all of those actual feelings when i explain it to you yeah like i guess my body has been it through through it so many times both in my mind and in reality that it brings back all of those same emotions it i start to get goosebumps my my armpits start to sweat like i'm living it if it's real yeah i'm reliving it and now, but when you're going through the visualization process, it has to be that real.

[915] The smells, the taping of the fingers, like the more colorful and the more real you can make it, the more believable it is.

[916] So I've been doing this kind of thing, just having listened to you enough for other stuff in life.

[917] So let's see if it works.

[918] But do you see this kind of visualization being useful for other things in career and all those kinds of things?

[919] All 100%.

[920] 100 % because I just know with my own life, my own, my own experiences.

[921] Like I, like my wife sometimes says to me, she says, well, where do you see yourself in like, you know, five years from now?

[922] And five years ago, I had said to her, you know, I want to have my own business.

[923] I want to have, you know, this is the amount of money that I'm hoping I can make in a given year.

[924] Like you have to have goals for yourself.

[925] Like is this, if you put out there like, okay, I want to make a million dollars in a year, that's a big number.

[926] Like for me or for the normal person, like that's a really big number.

[927] You know what I mean?

[928] Like it's not, especially when you're not making that much at the time.

[929] It's a super big number, right?

[930] So having those goals for yourself, like it won't happen and it's not possible unless you dream, it's possible.

[931] And think it that it's possible.

[932] And then it doesn't magically happen.

[933] And maybe it doesn't happen in five years.

[934] maybe happens intent, but at least you're on the path to getting there.

[935] You know what I mean?

[936] And I said, I want to own my own business.

[937] I want to control my own destiny.

[938] I want to be my own boss.

[939] I want to make my own decisions.

[940] Like these are the things that I told that I wanted to do.

[941] And now I'm at that point, you know, where, you know, I work for myself.

[942] I have my own company.

[943] I have partners, obviously.

[944] But like, if I want to pick up and go somewhere for a week, I just do, I don't have to ask permission to do it, right?

[945] That's what life, freedom, right?

[946] That's what I'd like.

[947] And all of it starts with a dream.

[948] And the same with my dojo when I first opened.

[949] So I ran a dojo for a long time and I only had 60 students always.

[950] Like 40 to 60 students had fluctuated.

[951] And I sit there and so, why can't I get more people in my door?

[952] Right.

[953] So I hired consultants to come in and look at my business and say why, right?

[954] And they came in and said, well, this place is really intimidating.

[955] Like if I was coming in off the street, the first thing I see is this big Olympic champion on the wall.

[956] And I see this training that's going on and these guys are flying through the ear and landing hard.

[957] And as a white belt, you're telling me that's the class for me. Like, no way.

[958] I'm not going to do that.

[959] So, like, I listen to these people.

[960] I said, you're right.

[961] And, you know, the training was hour and a half, two hours long.

[962] People can't handle an hour and a half for two hours training when they first walk in the door.

[963] So I had to restructure all my programming.

[964] I had to look at the way I was offering my curriculum at my school.

[965] And I had to make levels for everybody, right?

[966] Like, here's my four to six year old class.

[967] Here's my six to 13 year old class.

[968] There's all my beginner classes.

[969] They don't mix in with the advanced people.

[970] And I, you know, and I had to learn how to make it accessible for everybody instead of just the people that wanted to train hard.

[971] And then the challenge was, okay, if you can have a lot of people in your dojo training, it's a recreational school.

[972] You can't produce champions at that same school.

[973] That's what I was told.

[974] So then I got all my black belts together and I said, listen, this is my vision.

[975] This is what I want.

[976] I want to have a club that has over 200 judo only athletes, no jiu -jitsu, no karate, nothing, judo only.

[977] I want over 200 people.

[978] And in that inside of that dojo, I want to have Olympic champions and I want to have recreational.

[979] Like little kids, five and six years old, older guys in their 70s train, I don't care, but I want the spectrum of recreational and I want Olympic champions.

[980] The only way to do that is to take your instructors and say, you are going to do this, define the roles, who's going to be the recreation, coach who's going to be the competitive coach.

[981] How do we separate these programs?

[982] And lo and behold, that was my vision that I shared with all of them.

[983] And that was back in 2006.

[984] And by 2012, we've got Olympic champion Kayla Harrison.

[985] We have over 200 people at the school.

[986] We have a successful thriving business.

[987] But it doesn't happen without that vision, a plan, and believing that it's possible.

[988] Believing that it's possible.

[989] I don't know.

[990] But I personally have have on top of that almost like very specific visions of a future like I don't know what because I don't want to give actual examples because for several reasons one of which is just people will as they often have they often will in your life they'll just laugh at it a little bit like that seems silly and I don't I'm very hesitant.

[991] to share certain things like that with people because they'll, I mean, I'm with Johnny Ive, who's the lead designer and Apple, like you want that dream, that little flame to not, people will put that flame out too easily, even people that love you.

[992] So I have very specific kind of visions, like maybe for Travis, it would be like a specific opponent or something like Ole Bischoff, like very specific, very specific situation, of what's going to happen, not just like, I want to be an Olympic champion, but very specific, like, almost silly situations.

[993] Yeah, like the dynamic between Travis and Ole Bishop or something, like maybe visualize that.

[994] For me, that helps because it makes it all real, even more real.

[995] It's not like some big goal, like a million dollars or something like that, which is also really important to have because you can measure it and so on.

[996] But it's just like you belong in those situations.

[997] Just believing you belong.

[998] Right, right, right.

[999] There.

[1000] It's not the...

[1001] It could be you.

[1002] Yeah, it could be you.

[1003] And for some reason, that really helps me, the little details.

[1004] Sure.

[1005] The, like, visualizing...

[1006] Most of them are almost a little bit funny.

[1007] Like, focusing on the funniness.

[1008] It's the mundaneness of it helps me a lot.

[1009] And all the people that have done great things, they're just human too.

[1010] Correct.

[1011] And I think a lot of people overestimate.

[1012] who others are right and don't and and sell themselves too short yeah because at the end of the day everybody started like everybody else really i mean we did you know we're all inference we couldn't walk we couldn't talk we couldn't do anything we learned along the way but and i think that's the one thing that i realized is that and i tell this to my athletes but i also tell it to my recreational students nobody is better than you are nobody unless you allow them to be right if you really want something to happen then like map the plan believe in yourself decide and no full out you're going to fail a lot you're going to get beat down you're going to have losses you're going to have struggles like and i think that's the one thing with social media today is that everybody sees everybody succeed nobody post the picture when they're on the ground and fell you losing like nobody nobody sees when you broke your arm and you had to go through rehab you know whatever it is like had your injuries and you were on your couch watching TV and you were suffering and you were like everybody has really really dark bad moments in their life and defeats and losses and suffrage and it's only at the end after they've recovered from all of that they've reclined up the mountain and they've gone to the pinnacle that you see them on social media with the metal right but Everybody else, like, struggles and was human and failed many, many times.

[1013] And, you know, convincing yourself that you're capable, I think, is the first start of everything.

[1014] Do you need people in your life that believe in you or should most of it come from within yourself?

[1015] I think most of it has to come in from, it certainly helps, but it has to come from you first.

[1016] You have to be driven.

[1017] Like, other people can help you define where you want to.

[1018] to go and help you get there and encourage you and can support you and, you know, whether it's resource -wise or with connections and like they can help with that path.

[1019] But that first part has to come from you.

[1020] It has to be your passion, your desire, your, it's your commitment to yourself.

[1021] You're the one that's going to ultimately make all the sacrifices to do it.

[1022] So it has to be your decision, not your parents, not your spouses, something that you're really motivated to do.

[1023] Let me ask you about Travis, Kayla, and maybe a few of the other athletes who've been involved with.

[1024] So first, Travis.

[1025] Travis Stevens, Olympic, silver medalist, three -time Olympian 2008, 2012, 2016.

[1026] What makes Travis Stevens great?

[1027] What makes him so successful?

[1028] What makes him unique in your mind as an athlete?

[1029] all the hardship he had to overcome, through his weird -looking Sainagi that eventually worked out nicely through the full richness of his personality.

[1030] In the context of all the other great athletes you've coached, what makes him special?

[1031] His fight, Travis has fight.

[1032] And you know, the first time I ever saw Travis Stevens was in, like, recognized him.

[1033] Maybe I had seen him before as a younger boy or something, but I actually recognized him is I brought a group of young kids to Italy for a competition and a training camp.

[1034] And it was this program called U23 Elite.

[1035] And I picked, handpicked 20 kids to go to this event.

[1036] And it was the first time I coached an international team.

[1037] And I had never seen Travis fight before, compete, train anything.

[1038] And during this competition, you know, he's an 81 kilo player.

[1039] I think he was maybe like 18 years old.

[1040] old, 17, 18 years old.

[1041] And it was a really hard European event.

[1042] And I think Travis won three matches and he lost two.

[1043] But what stood out the most of me was like the fight he had in him.

[1044] He was scrapping every fight.

[1045] Like he scrapped hard.

[1046] Like he wanted to win more than any of them, right?

[1047] He didn't win, but he wanted to win more.

[1048] And I noticed that right away.

[1049] And then I also noticed that after he lost his second match and he was eliminated from the tournament, I saw how disappointed he was in himself.

[1050] He actually thought he was supposed to beat those people, even though he was 17, right?

[1051] And he's fighting against grown men that are, you know, a high level judo, much higher than he was.

[1052] And I said to him, I said, hey, son, like, don't worry, man, you got a long career ahead of you.

[1053] Like, I'm glad you're disappointed, but there's so many things you don't know and so many skills you don't have, the fact that you were able to hold your own and scrap like that, like you've got a good future.

[1054] And I remember calling my friend, Jason Morris, after that tournament.

[1055] And I said, hey, man, do you ever hear of this kid Travis Stevens?

[1056] He says, no, why?

[1057] I said, man, the kid's got some fighting him, right?

[1058] And I said that.

[1059] I said that to Jason at the time.

[1060] I said, that kid's got some fighting him, man. He's pretty talented.

[1061] You know, and that's how it started.

[1062] So I saw that I'm in when he was young.

[1063] But the other thing was, Travis, like, there's no such thing as hard work to that guy.

[1064] If you tell him to put his head through the wall, and that's how he wins, he'll go put his head through the wall.

[1065] He'll do whatever it takes for him to do to achieve success.

[1066] And he hates failure more than he likes winning.

[1067] 100%.

[1068] He always has.

[1069] He punishes himself when he doesn't do well.

[1070] He makes himself work harder.

[1071] He goes and, you know, just abuses himself when he doesn't succeed because he's so heartbroken and disappointed in himself.

[1072] So that's a trait that I think all of the athletes that I work with, like, closely, they all had that same trait.

[1073] They hated losing more than anything.

[1074] They would break their arm.

[1075] They'd fall in their head.

[1076] You know, they'd rather get hit by a car than lose a judo tournament.

[1077] Yeah.

[1078] You know, and as a result, then they all had.

[1079] fight and they all were willing to train, they were willing to listen, and they would do anything for victory.

[1080] You know, within, you know, within the rules, I'm not talking about taking drugs or anything like that, but they would, they'd give 100 % of themselves for victory.

[1081] And, you know, Travis was somebody that when he was down, he found a way to do, to get better doing something else.

[1082] If he couldn't do standing, that's when he started jujitsu.

[1083] He couldn't go on his feet anymore.

[1084] He couldn't stand up and train.

[1085] Might as well go learn jujitsu and get good on the ground, right?

[1086] Because I can.

[1087] You know, so he always found a way, and no matter what obstacle was in his way, he just went around it.

[1088] So what about the, it'd be interesting to get your perspective, because I know Travis's perspective, is the just the number of injuries.

[1089] Like, what do you make of the perseverance through all the injuries he had to overcome?

[1090] Specifically, like, you just observing this creature that you've coached.

[1091] I mean, he seems to not see the injuries as a problem.

[1092] He's just like, just like you said head through the wall it's like what like when i when we're talking about injuries he kind of he doesn't even see the injuries in themselves is the problem because he thinks that the injuries you know you heal back stronger i forget the exact quote but he said like my body is is now less injury prone than most of anyone else because i've already broken i've broken everything and it's just grown back stronger like because i have him something like do you regret sort of pushing your body to all of those places that resulted in those injuries he was his response was like no I'm stronger now so I don't know if that's justification but that certainly describes a mindset that yeah head through the wall that doesn't it's almost not dramatic like look I got this injury it's so I'm so like brave and special for overcoming this injury he's just he's just he's just just that's part of the job and he gets the job done.

[1093] But like that job involves a lot of injuries.

[1094] One of the talks I gave Travis and that team at that particular tournament was at the very beginning of the camp after the tournament, I said to them, listen, my vision, I shared my vision with them.

[1095] I said, my vision is, you know, in seven years, because that was 2005, I said in seven years, I want to have a U .S. team that steps on the mat that is ready to kick ass.

[1096] And in order to get there, all of you guys can be a part of this team and part of this process.

[1097] But in order to get there, you guys have to be the first ones to practice.

[1098] You have to be the last ones to leave because we have to work harder than the rest of the world because we're up against all odds.

[1099] I said, I am sick of America being a laughing stock of judo and being the first round, easy match, warm up for everybody else.

[1100] I said, if you get injured, you're not going to be on the side with, you know, with an ice bag on, taking off rounds.

[1101] And then get back on the Matt the next day and tell me you're okay.

[1102] If you can train the next day, you can train today.

[1103] So there's no injury.

[1104] The only time you'll leave in this dojo is if the ambulance has to take you out of here.

[1105] You know, and I do think subliminally, Travis bought into that message and heard that message then.

[1106] He said, if I'm going to be a champ, then that's the way I'm going to do it.

[1107] And he did.

[1108] And he embodied it.

[1109] He lived it.

[1110] Man, there were many times in Europe where I said, dude, just tape it up.

[1111] Go off to the side.

[1112] Just take the day off.

[1113] Like, take the rest of the day off, you're beat up.

[1114] You can't do it.

[1115] He's not, no, I'm going to tape it up.

[1116] I'm going to tape it.

[1117] I said, no, you don't need you right now.

[1118] And he said, no, Sensei, I'm doing it.

[1119] You know, the ambulance isn't taking me out.

[1120] It's just my wrist.

[1121] It's just my ankle.

[1122] It's just my wrist.

[1123] It's just my ankle.

[1124] You know, it's.

[1125] Yeah, I love it.

[1126] Yeah.

[1127] What about the, so the other really big thing is you comment on a little bit is the weight cut.

[1128] So early in his career, he was 81 KG.

[1129] And that was presumably not so difficult.

[1130] But later in his career, he is 81KG, and it's becoming more and more difficult.

[1131] So that's the other thing with him is, so I've known a lot of really, really tough people at the highest levels broken by the weight cut.

[1132] Like, that can break the toughest minds.

[1133] And it doesn't seem to have broken him.

[1134] And he's delivered on it often, on, like, insane weight cuts.

[1135] So just as a coach, what do you think about his particular?

[1136] his mind and the challenge of the way cut.

[1137] It was part of his process.

[1138] It was part of his way of getting ready for battle.

[1139] Suffering?

[1140] Yeah, it really was.

[1141] And if I'm going to suffer this much, then I'm going to make my opponents pay for all the suffering that I went through to get here.

[1142] That was his mindset.

[1143] Later on in his career, you're right.

[1144] Like a lot of times, Travis, he would never step on a scale until he got to the tournament.

[1145] You know, and even when he'd get to the tournament, like, he'd weigh like 90 kilos.

[1146] He'd show up at the tournament nine kilos over.

[1147] I'm like, you have to, but I never, it was just an expectation of making weight.

[1148] Not making weight was never an option for any of our athletes.

[1149] And Travis knew it.

[1150] And he said, as a professional, my job is to make weight.

[1151] If I don't make weight, he, you know, he was never going to allow that to happen.

[1152] And he was never going to allow us to come to him and say, hey, I told you.

[1153] You know, because losing wasn't an option, making a weight wasn't, not making weight was not an option for him ever either.

[1154] But, you know, a lot of times he wouldn't even, he'd be nine kilos over on the plane going over to the tournament and have to make weight three days later.

[1155] You know, and he didn't break 86 kilos until the day before the tournament.

[1156] He had five kilos over the day before.

[1157] That was his way.

[1158] But he would do three workouts, you know, wake up in the morning and work out.

[1159] Then he'd eat.

[1160] Then he'd work out in the afternoon.

[1161] Then he'd eat again.

[1162] and then he'd work out again at night, and then he'd reward himself, hey, I worked out three times today.

[1163] He'd go have a, you know, a mountain dew.

[1164] Yeah.

[1165] You know, or a chocolate bar, you know.

[1166] And then he's next morning, he's, you know, back up to 87.

[1167] And he would never touch weight until the warning of Lance.

[1168] That's a, when he, he wasn't on weight for more than like five minutes.

[1169] His process would break a lot of people.

[1170] So the fact that he got the job done is not just the job done.

[1171] done, but every single time he got the job done.

[1172] And I made those athletes fight.

[1173] We would fight in Paris.

[1174] We would do a camp for a week, double session camp for a week.

[1175] He'd be seven kilos over, have to fight the next weekend.

[1176] We're talking two or three days later.

[1177] So not only did he make the weight, but he did a grueling training camp twice a day and then cut weight and then fought again.

[1178] Then did another camp for a week in double session training camp and then fought on a third weekend in a row.

[1179] And our athletes went through hell.

[1180] All of our athletes went through hell because on the tour around the world, they fought in every event, they did every camp, they fought in every event, whereas most of the other teams like Japan comes in and fights in Paris, then they go home.

[1181] You know, they maybe do a camp for three days, then they go home.

[1182] They don't stay in Europe for four or five weeks straight in fighting every tournament.

[1183] And when you get to Germany, the Germans skip the French open.

[1184] They skip the camp in France.

[1185] They're just getting ready for Germany.

[1186] Our athletes already had two competitions, two training camps, three -weight cuts now.

[1187] And then, so they're not 100 % when they fight in Germany.

[1188] But that's all part of the experience they need, the training that they need that they don't get here in this country.

[1189] And all of those were just preparation for our world championships or our Olympic games.

[1190] So by the time our athletes got to those tournaments, they felt so strong, so rested, so like, man, this guy that felt like a monster in Germany feels like nothing.

[1191] today because you're fully rested now you know but part of the challenge is because the american team is smaller and more i mean just smaller is um you know all the different places you go for to do the weight cut to do the diet to do the preparation or the recovery there's like that process changes every time so it's you're basically have to improvise a lot oh yeah you show up to a hotel And how you do the wake cut, you don't know.

[1192] And the different weather conditions, it's not, it's like, what is it, Rocky versus Drago, right?

[1193] So you don't have, you have to just improvise.

[1194] And that's also a fascinating part of the American judo story, which is like, you have to improvise more.

[1195] Well, I was funny because when I, it was 1990, and it was at the Goodwill Games, right?

[1196] And we were, it was a U .S. Olympic Committee type event.

[1197] And so we're on the bus with the swim team.

[1198] and it was me and Jason Morris on the American team and we're going to the judo competition but we're on the bus with the swim team I'm sorry, we're going to the venue where we're staying I remember being like by ourselves with no staff no no manager no coach we're just by ourselves going to fight in Russia right and the swim team's on there with their full sweats and their staff and like their managers and I heard the girl go I'm sorry this was 1994 because it was in St. Petersburg Russia So I heard the girl on the team, she goes up to coach, she goes, coach, do you think you can send the massage therapist to my room at 10 a am?

[1199] You know, I'm feeling kind of jet lag.

[1200] I looked at me and Jason, we looked at him.

[1201] She scheduled a massage.

[1202] We don't even have a staff.

[1203] Like, what the hell is going on here?

[1204] You know, what a difference in sporting, you know, different sports within the same country, you know.

[1205] But that, I mean, not to romanticize things.

[1206] but that you do represent the spirit of the Olympics when you're kind of the improvisational nature of it.

[1207] Because it is just you.

[1208] You and sometimes you and the coach and just pure guts and you against the world with no money.

[1209] The warrior spirit.

[1210] The warrior spirit.

[1211] How did it feel like when he, after being in two Olympics, beating some of the best people in the world, facing some of the best people in the world and just barely losing.

[1212] What did it feel like to you as a coach to see Travis Stevens win the silver medal?

[1213] Electric.

[1214] First of all, in 2012 in London, it was like, it felt like somebody died.

[1215] I'm not going to be, I'm not going to lie to you.

[1216] The Ole Bischoff match?

[1217] No, just seeing Travis not finish on the podium, period.

[1218] But, you know, in the only Bischoff match, I thought he won, regardless of who won and who lost, he just left everything he had on that mat, right?

[1219] 10 minutes of probably was a 20 -something minute match, but 10 minutes of fighting actually, right?

[1220] He left everything he had.

[1221] He wanted to be the Olympic finals.

[1222] He wanted to be Olympic champion.

[1223] And when he didn't get that opportunity, he lost everything.

[1224] He drained himself.

[1225] He cried for 45 minutes straight.

[1226] I couldn't regroup him.

[1227] I couldn't get him up.

[1228] I said, Travis, you've got to stop your crying.

[1229] You've got to get off the floor.

[1230] We've got a bronze medal fight.

[1231] Like, if you don't recover, you're not going to perform well.

[1232] And he just didn't care.

[1233] Like, it was gold or nothing.

[1234] And so when he walked out against the Canadian boy, he had beaten the Canadian.

[1235] I think at that time, he had beaten that Canadian every single time, except for that bronze metal match.

[1236] But he just didn't have the fight in him anymore.

[1237] He'd left it all in the match and the Bischoff match.

[1238] So to see him come back with zero, right?

[1239] We just had a team where his best friend, Marty Malloy, a bronze medal, right?

[1240] Then the day after Travis fights, Kayla Harrison goes and wins her first gold medal, right?

[1241] Our first ever gold.

[1242] So we have a gold and a bronze.

[1243] His training partner wins a gold.

[1244] His best friend from growing up wins a bronze.

[1245] He has nothing, right?

[1246] To see him for four years go through hell, like literally like all of his injuries, every training camp, and then forget the humiliation because every time any reporter ever came to my dojo, they want to talk to Kayla.

[1247] She's the Olympic champion.

[1248] Who's this Travis guy?

[1249] Yeah.

[1250] Who is this guy?

[1251] You know, who is this guy?

[1252] You know, so he didn't meddle.

[1253] Oh, you know, he's not that important.

[1254] And, you know, up until right till you get to the, right before the Olympics, now they talk about he's an Olympian again.

[1255] And, but up until that point.

[1256] And then every little kid see Kayla's medal.

[1257] Oh, Travis, yeah, you went to the Olympics.

[1258] Where's your medal?

[1259] How did you do?

[1260] You know, I took fifth.

[1261] I didn't place.

[1262] You know, it's the lowest of low every day having that constant reminder so four years later when that guy I mean mentally he was ready physically he was ready that was the best and strongest Travis Stevens that I've ever seen and I've ever felt like because I had to get on the mat and do some drills and stuff like that and like try to defend on bars and because we didn't have a lot of bodies in in Rio and I was like my God he's I said after one of the brothers they were the strongest I've ever felt that guy right Before the competition, so physically was ready.

[1263] Mentally, the morning of competition, I said to Travis, I looked him in the eye, and I said, we're ready to go over to the venue.

[1264] I said, are you ready today?

[1265] And he just looked at me like, he goes, I am going to shock the world today.

[1266] That's what you told me. I'm going to shock the world today.

[1267] And I said, all right, great, let's go, right?

[1268] So we go to the venue.

[1269] And every other athlete was just, like, nervously, like doing repetitions of Uchi comies.

[1270] you could see like sweat coming out.

[1271] You could see like all this nervous energy going through their body.

[1272] And here comes Travis Stevens.

[1273] He's got these big goofy headphones on.

[1274] He's got a tank top that says USA on it.

[1275] He's got the swim trunks that say USA, like, that have shiny letters that glow in the dark.

[1276] Yeah.

[1277] And he's like, and this is in the middle of the judo hall where all these athletes are warming up for their first match.

[1278] He's like dancing around, like doing this loose warm up, like almost like a little kid.

[1279] at an amusement park who's dead said yeah go play you know and it was like he had waited four years for that moment he was so relaxed yeah so focused so relaxed and couldn't wait it was like a cage tiger like if you like coming out of the shoot to go step on to the that a mat was like this tiger that you were just letting out of the cage and he just go like now is your time to go fight and that's what he did that whole day and like when he beat churikishvili in the in the semis and choked them out and won that fight, like, there's nobody, with the exception of maybe the guys in the American team, there was nobody in that stadium that expected Travis to beat him.

[1280] Yeah.

[1281] Yeah.

[1282] Like, you know, he had smashed Travis.

[1283] I don't know how many times before that free poem.

[1284] Like in the first minute even, it wasn't even a fight, right?

[1285] And it was great game plan.

[1286] He's the world number one at the time, too.

[1287] world number one at the time world champion carried the flag for the Georgian Federation walking into the games most dominant 981 kilo player in that weight class for you know quite some time and man we just had his number and Travis was ready to go you know it was so cool it was so awesome we was I mean we had already won Kayla had already won her second goal right the way the event went, and Travis winning that was like icing on the cake for our team.

[1288] I was the best performance we've ever had in history.

[1289] It's awesome.

[1290] So you mentioned Kayla.

[1291] She is one of, if not the greatest American Jodoka ever, two -time gold medalist.

[1292] 2010 world champion for senior worlds.

[1293] Senior worlds.

[1294] What makes Kayla special?

[1295] special.

[1296] What makes her so great?

[1297] What made this champion?

[1298] It's a combination of a lot of things.

[1299] One was obviously Kayla's mental toughness, right?

[1300] To overcome what she overcame.

[1301] You know, this is a girl who, you know, let's, I don't know, forget about the sexual abuse, but the fact that she had to go through that in life and learned how to compartmentalize that and keep that off as a separate part of her brain, you know, and forget about it and move on.

[1302] That took an incredible team to help her do that.

[1303] And my dad was a huge part of her accomplishing that.

[1304] So for people who don't know, we should comment and say that Kayla had to go through trauma in her earlier life through sexual abuse and had to overcome that through the whole process of becoming a champion as well.

[1305] Because she had zero self -esteem, zero self -worth.

[1306] She was at the lowest of lows and didn't even want to be on this earth, right?

[1307] So she was traumatized, obviously, and getting her the right help and surrounding her with the right people who could help her get through that and be by her side as she's getting through that and letting her know and reaffirming that she's doing the right thing and she made the right decision and she should have zero guilt and, you know, this doesn't define her.

[1308] It happened to her, but it doesn't define her.

[1309] What defines her is what she does from now on and then rebuilding that person to become who she became.

[1310] I think the mental toughness is a big part of it, her mind.

[1311] But then as an athlete, you know, she's a lot like Travis.

[1312] You know, she's a warrior.

[1313] She's a fighter.

[1314] You know, my dad always jokes with her, you know.

[1315] He says, you're a workhorse.

[1316] You're not a thoroughbred.

[1317] We're not going to treat you like a thoroughbred, right?

[1318] You're a workhorse.

[1319] So you're going to work.

[1320] in a way you're going to get bigger and stronger is you're going to work harder and you're going to keep you know and she came to us when she was only 15 so at that time we got her with a really good strength and conditioning coach we did all the core Olympic style lifting like as her body was developing she was getting stronger every single day and then you know she had the luxury of being on the mat with at the time I was still young enough to train and be on the mat and I was around her weight class and Travis was able to train with her and all we had all the top US athletes at the time training here at my school.

[1321] So she got the benefit of all the best guys to train within the country, you know, and her doing all of those rounds, you know, night in, week, every night, every week, every year compiled with the best, you know, highest level she could as a girl.

[1322] She got the strength.

[1323] She got the technique.

[1324] She got the, and then she had the coaching on top of it with my dad being on her as, you know, working her out and, you know, having the wherewithal to develop a strategy and a plan for her.

[1325] Because when she, first came here, she competed at 63 kilos, which is 138 pounds.

[1326] At the time, Rhonda was Ronda Rousey was also training here, and she was 70 kilos.

[1327] So if Kayla was struggling making 63, so the only way to, obviously, the only way to still compete is to move up.

[1328] But my dad said, well, if you move up, then you're in Ronda's weight.

[1329] So let's skip that weight, and you're going to go to 78 kilos.

[1330] And he told her, listen, you're going to go up two -way classes.

[1331] She looked at him and was like, that's 172 pounds.

[1332] And he goes, I don't care.

[1333] Like, you're already struggling making 138.

[1334] You weigh 150.

[1335] What's the difference?

[1336] We put 20 pounds on and go to 170.

[1337] So that's why she jumped two weights because she passed Rhonda.

[1338] She went to the weight above so she could make the national team and she had a chance to go to the Olympics and all that because we envisioned Ronda staying around until 2012.

[1339] And that's also like a long -term vision because you kind of grow into that body then over time.

[1340] Correct.

[1341] So you can dominate.

[1342] You can learn what it's like in that weight class, you can learn to dominate that weight class, excel, and then dominate.

[1343] People that cut weight too hard, too long, they forget about technique because they're only worried about losing weight.

[1344] They're always tired in training.

[1345] They don't give 100 % effort.

[1346] They're not getting better.

[1347] She now is just focused on getting better at judo, you know, and getting bigger, getting stronger, getting more powerful.

[1348] So I think given her that purpose and that, that was a great call.

[1349] What are some memorable or maybe the most memorable moment, Kayla Harrison, moment to you as her coach.

[1350] Not the most, perhaps.

[1351] Let's say, what are some memorable moments?

[1352] Everybody hears the good ones, right?

[1353] So everybody knows she won the world, she won the world championships in Tokyo in 2010.

[1354] She was our two -time Olympic champion in 2012, 2016.

[1355] I'll never forget those moments, right?

[1356] Because they're historic.

[1357] One of the biggest moments that I like sharing this story with everybody is that in 2010 and January, Kayla was still a developing athlete.

[1358] And we had a local tournament in New York.

[1359] It was in Brooklyn, New York.

[1360] It was called the Starrett Cup.

[1361] And I knew that at that tournament, that two of the Canadian girls, they were like ranked 15th or 20th in the world.

[1362] They weren't superstars, but they were tough players.

[1363] Both of them, I knew we're going to be at that tournament.

[1364] So I said, Kayla, we're going to go to this tournament.

[1365] You're going to compete against the Canadian girls, get some good experience, you know, figure out what you need to work on, and then we'll go home and work on some stuff.

[1366] Well, she went through the tournament.

[1367] There was only three girls in the wait, her and the two Canadians.

[1368] At that tournament, she lost both fights.

[1369] So this is January 2010.

[1370] She lost both matches.

[1371] She was competitive, but certainly things she needed to work on.

[1372] It was good development thing for her and for us.

[1373] It also opened her mind to say, oh man, you know, because she was already a junior world champion at the time.

[1374] But so now there's another level.

[1375] This is a senior level, right?

[1376] You got to go up another level.

[1377] Here's two girls that aren't even medalists that are beating you.

[1378] So now there's more work to be done.

[1379] And so I like telling that story because everybody sees the champions in the greatest moments.

[1380] They don't see them when they have bad days.

[1381] And could you imagine being, you know, oh and two?

[1382] You feel like, you feel like a failure, right?

[1383] But 10 months later was Tokyo 2010.

[1384] She went from 0 and 2 at Starrette, New York, to world champion 2010 in the motherland in Japan.

[1385] Yeah.

[1386] I mean, that's an amazing turnaround.

[1387] And that's the only possible if you put the losses in their proper context.

[1388] You don't let it destroy you mentally and just keep moving forward.

[1389] Correct.

[1390] That's so funny.

[1391] So you were there at 2010 at the Sarah Cup?

[1392] Was Travis there?

[1393] Mm -hmm.

[1394] Yeah.

[1395] I made all those.

[1396] We fought at every local, like, the mentality of our team was no tournament is beneath us.

[1397] If our goal is to go to the Olympics in the worlds and win, there's no tournament that's beneath us.

[1398] We're going to get experience.

[1399] We're going to fight.

[1400] We're going to learn.

[1401] We're going to compete.

[1402] We're going to get better.

[1403] You know?

[1404] I actually, just as a funny little side, I was there.

[1405] I competed.

[1406] Really?

[1407] This is one of the earlier tournaments, like the beginner division.

[1408] Oh, no. I actually did Black Belt Division, too.

[1409] that was one of the actually yeah i remember that that's when it was so early that i thought like i was also really strong at that time just like physically like powerlifting stuff so i thought like it'll be good experience uh to also do uh black belt division and remember it must have been actually travis's division which is funny uh leger brothers yeah yeah harry and gary they are super they're super they're super good good and they're super dominant, but I think Travis faced one of them and beat them.

[1410] I don't know.

[1411] I just remembered it's funny how there's just like these little roads that later reconnect.

[1412] But yeah, there's some incredible people there.

[1413] And I saw obviously the positive things and it's interesting that Kayla's story was also intersecting there and that was one of the lower points for her.

[1414] Another story I like to share is that you have to know your athletes right and you have to you know really get to know their psychologically what they're thinking psychologically mentally what's going through their head another story was in in Tokyo it was 2015 the Tokyo Grand Slam so we had had Kayla face off against almost all the top girls in her division she had meeting everybody going into the 2016 Olympics but at the 2015 Tokyo Grand Slam but at the 2015 Tokyo Grand slam.

[1415] There was a girl from Japan that she hadn't fought in a long time and she lost at a girl last time she fought her.

[1416] So it was something we wanted her to beat this girl going into the Olympics so that she knew she could beat everybody.

[1417] And it was a first round match and it was going to be tough for Kayla, right?

[1418] It was going to be a really hard fight.

[1419] And she had won a bunch of tournaments in a row leading up to that.

[1420] So her confidence was really high, but at the same time she didn't think she needed this fight and she showed up to the tournament and she said I don't think I can fight today I've got a stinger in my neck you know I've got a stinger coming down my neck and I'm kind of sore and she didn't tell us she went and told the trainer she walked around she's holding her neck and me and my dad were like what's up with her I don't know and then so like I don't know maybe she doesn't want to fight today I don't know right so all of a sudden the trainer comes up to us and she didn't come to us the trainer came to us is you know I really don't think it's a good idea that Kayla fight today and we looked at him and we're like well your opinion doesn't really matter does it right like what's up with her yeah well she has this thing in her neck it's like a pinched nerve and there's this and then we talked I said is there a risk of her getting injured like is this pain or is this risk that she's going to get injured and she's going to set her back like long time in her career.

[1421] He says, no, she's not going to get injured.

[1422] Just a pinch nervous.

[1423] A little pain she's going to have to deal with.

[1424] I go, okay, well, can you fix the pain?

[1425] He says, yeah, I can do this and that, and I can give her a shot, and the pain will go away.

[1426] So, okay, then do that.

[1427] And so Kayla, Kayla comes up, she goes, didn't the trainer talk to you?

[1428] I said, yeah, he talked to us.

[1429] Well, he said, I can't fight.

[1430] I know, but we already talked to the trainer.

[1431] And he said, you're good to go.

[1432] Yeah.

[1433] She looked at us like, and then we had to talk to her and say, listen, You're not injured.

[1434] You're in pain because we just came from a camp.

[1435] I said, you're in pain.

[1436] But here's the deal.

[1437] We want you to fight this girl.

[1438] Why don't you go out there and beat this girl, period.

[1439] I don't care.

[1440] I want to know that you can beat this girl.

[1441] This is why we came.

[1442] This is our last hard tournament before the Olympic Games.

[1443] This is what we want from you.

[1444] And lo and behold, she understood.

[1445] They gave her a quick shot.

[1446] The rest of the world thought we were crazy making her compete.

[1447] Yeah.

[1448] And then she went out there.

[1449] She fought, didn't even know she was injured.

[1450] No, you know what I mean?

[1451] She just went out there.

[1452] She fought the tournament.

[1453] She beat the Japanese girls.

[1454] She ended up going through the whole tournament.

[1455] She took a gold medal.

[1456] She won the event.

[1457] That turned out to be a great confidence builder.

[1458] Yeah.

[1459] And that kind of sets you up for all the chaos that can happen at the Olympic Games.

[1460] And it tells you, if you can beat these girls when you're not 100 % and you're not at your best, you're physically beat.

[1461] Mentally beat.

[1462] Imagine what you're going to do when you're fresh.

[1463] Well, when she was going into the Olympic Games, there's a lot.

[1464] She had the mental game down.

[1465] Down.

[1466] There wasn't a girl in that division that thought they could beat Kayla going into those games.

[1467] Not a one.

[1468] They just looked at her and went, no, not happening.

[1469] Yeah.

[1470] That's great.

[1471] I mean, she's a great Olympic champion, two -time Olympic champion.

[1472] But there is something that she's commented on, which is she's suffered or went through depression after winning her second Olympic gold.

[1473] Why do you think this happens?

[1474] You often hear stories of great champions becoming depressed after the Olympics.

[1475] There's a lack of purpose afterwards, right?

[1476] Because you've done in life what you set out to do.

[1477] You've had a goal every day you woke up.

[1478] You knew what your purpose was.

[1479] You knew what your day looked like.

[1480] You knew why you were doing that.

[1481] And all of a sudden, you won.

[1482] and you got all the fame and you're all happy and it but then you wake up and you go now what I don't have a next and and also because there was nothing for her there was no there was no path set out for Kayla that said okay we're going to you know you're going to become an ambassador a global ambassador of judo you know the iJF is going to help pay a salary the the USA judo is going to give you a salary here's which we want you to go teach children we want you to go be an ambassador for woman.

[1483] We're going to fly you around and, you know, whatever it is.

[1484] We're going to give you a job and here's what you're going to do, you know, if you'd like to take it.

[1485] There was nothing for her.

[1486] Like, I remember doing the interview at the Olympics with her and they said, are you going to compete in the next Olympics?

[1487] And I said, no. Why?

[1488] She's already two -time gold medalist.

[1489] What does three -time gold medalist do for her?

[1490] Nothing, right?

[1491] Doesn't motivate her to do it again.

[1492] They said, are you doing MMA?

[1493] I said, no, why would she do MMA?

[1494] That's ridiculous.

[1495] Like she doesn't need MMA.

[1496] She should be able to make a living off of what she's accomplished in this sport for the rest of her life.

[1497] But what happens is, and when most people don't understand, is once you say I'm retired, I'm no longer competing in the sport of judo.

[1498] You don't get a salary from USA Judo anymore, which she was getting.

[1499] I think she got like $72 ,000 a year from USA Judo at the time.

[1500] you don't get a stipend from the Olympic Committee anymore goes away your sponsor like the New York Athletic Club was a great sponsor for her for all those years in fact she could have never been the athlete she became without the support of the NYC because I talked to them when she was 15 I said hey I got a girl that's really good someday like if you invest in her now I promise you she'll pay back for you and they and I remember the day she won the Olympic goal they called the guy up I said, hey, I told you, she'd be, so, but, you know, they can no longer give you stipends because you're not competing and representing them anymore.

[1501] So that goes away.

[1502] All of your sponsorships and all of your money that you would make from your TV commercials or whatever, that didn't happen for her after the Olympics because judo's an obscure sport, right?

[1503] So she didn't have any opportunities for that.

[1504] At the end of the day, she has no revenue coming in.

[1505] How do you live?

[1506] You get a bonus of 25 grand from the Olympic Committee or whatever for.

[1507] for winning a gold.

[1508] But aside from that, you're not going to live on that money.

[1509] So no purpose, no goal, right?

[1510] What am I going to wake up and do tomorrow?

[1511] I don't know.

[1512] So she has no direction.

[1513] And then at the same time, she has no money coming in.

[1514] So everything shuts off.

[1515] So now it's like, way do you turn?

[1516] What do you do?

[1517] And that leads to being depressed because, yeah, even though I've accomplished all this stuff, I'm kind of lost in life.

[1518] Like, what's next for me?

[1519] And I guess you just have to ride that out because when you're a great human being, great champion, life has a way of helping you find a way.

[1520] Right.

[1521] I mean, she's in mixed martial arts now, but she has a lot of stuff going on.

[1522] Right.

[1523] Well, her kids, she adopted her sister's kids, so she's their illegal guardian now.

[1524] So that is her purpose, right?

[1525] Raising these kids and making them part of her family.

[1526] and she's fortunate enough that she has enough money that she can do that and she can give them a good life.

[1527] I'm going to ask you to start some trouble, but I heard that she said somewhere that she can beat Khabib Narmagamatov and Judo.

[1528] What do you think?

[1529] To be honest with you, I mean, I don't know what level of Judoca.

[1530] Yeah, I don't know.

[1531] I don't know what level he is.

[1532] But I do know that that Russian system respects Judo immensely.

[1533] What I will tell you is this.

[1534] I trained with Kayla.

[1535] and I was an Olympic medalist and a world champion in judo and granted I was older when I trained with her but you have to go as a man you have to go 100 % or she will smash you as a man and I could tell you that if Khabib doesn't do a lot of just judo doesn't like you know gripping and doesn't understand like if he's you know if he can throw that's one thing but if he doesn't really understand you at a high level she will throw him she would beat him in a match In a judo contest, not in a mixed martial arts contest, not in a wrestling contest, not in a submission contest in a pure judo match where he cannot grab legs and he has to grip up and just throw, I'd put my money on Kayla.

[1536] Unless he's, you know, if he could go place to the nationals in Russia, he would beat her.

[1537] But if he's not at that level of judo, he's more like a brown belt or he's not, he's not a high level judo player, she will win.

[1538] I saw her take some of our best juniors in this country, some of the guys that went and won our meddled in our senior nationals, I've seen her smash all of them in judo.

[1539] Now, she's not going to do that to a Travis Stevens.

[1540] She's not going to do that, you know, to a senior national champion, you know, or an Olympian in our sport, but she will go toe to toe with every other male, if black belts or not.

[1541] Speaking of Khabib in Russia, Vladimir Putin, I don't know if you have heard of him.

[1542] He's the president of Russia, but he's also judoka.

[1543] Have you gotten a chance to see him do judo?

[1544] What do you think about his judo if you were to analyze it?

[1545] So I'm actually really good friends with the Russian Federation.

[1546] The guy in charge is Izio Gamba.

[1547] He's an Italian.

[1548] He's a mastermind behind their success of the 2012 and 26.

[1549] 16 Olympic teams.

[1550] In 2020, he suffered from leukemia, blood cancer.

[1551] So he wasn't part of their 2020 program, but he was part of 2012, 2016.

[1552] That whole national, the Olympic team in 2012 came to our studio and lived here for a month in Boston.

[1553] They went to school in Boston.

[1554] I brought them to my house.

[1555] They had three Olympic champions.

[1556] Oh, my God.

[1557] What a team.

[1558] They all came and lived here in Boston for a month.

[1559] They wanted to be part of like experience.

[1560] America type program.

[1561] So I've seen all of them with Putin in Russia at their national training center working out with them and taking falls and doing judo with him.

[1562] So, you know, it's hard when you're older to move in judo.

[1563] I mean, I was at a high level and I'm, you know, now 51.

[1564] It's hard for me to move like I used to.

[1565] So at his age, he's got to be, what, 60, between 62, 65 -ish.

[1566] I mean, it moves really well for somebody that's that age.

[1567] you know, and probably hasn't done very much judo for the last 12 many years, right?

[1568] So it tells you he, at one point, he had to be a really good judo player.

[1569] Yeah, he put in a lot of work at some point to develop the technique.

[1570] You can tell when a great judo player, even if they haven't practiced it, even if they're up there in age, like just the way they move, the way they go in for a Sanagi, the way they go for a particular throw, the way they do foot sweeps and all that kind of stuff, you could just tell he's good at judo.

[1571] And that's kind of fascinating.

[1572] It's fascinating to see political leaders.

[1573] I've gotten to interact with quite a few for whom judo was a formative experience in their life.

[1574] And that's so interesting that for a lot of people, judo played a big part in their life, early development.

[1575] It's similar to like if you served in the military.

[1576] There's just something about judo.

[1577] It's the, as a martial art, it's not just the technique.

[1578] So yes, there's something about gaming.

[1579] confidence through becoming aware of what like your body can do the sort of the artistry and the skill of it also the power being able to dominate another human being with technique but also like the I don't know the formality the discipline of just honoring the tradition of it so all of that mixed together somehow creates memories it creates memories that kind of define you as a human being and that you carry that forward throughout your life and I've just been surprised to know how many powerful people internationally have like in their heart in their who they are judo for sure of it it makes you the human being that you are it really does like it it becomes a fabric of if people the people that stick with it right that stay with it and it because it I mean it teaches you so many lessons it's so memorable because of what you talked about the tradition but it's also you grow with other people, you know, and you learn from other people and you experience things with other people.

[1580] It's such a hands -on sport that it's very memorable.

[1581] And people love it so much.

[1582] Like right now at my dojo, we have like four generations.

[1583] Like somebody that did judo with my dad, you know, had a kid who trained with me, who loved, you know, judo so much, had a kid.

[1584] that kid was now in his 20s who did judo and now has a kid who's two or three or four that's coming to my toddler program at my school.

[1585] We're talking four generations and they all loved the experience so much and what it did for them in their lives that they wanted the next generation to also experience the same thing.

[1586] This is a tricky question, but if people are interested in judo and want to start learning it, in the United States, there's thousands of jiu jihadistice schools, for example, is there advice you can give to people interested in judo or maybe to jih Tzu, uh, uh, gym owners?

[1587] Like how, how, how do you get judo as part of your life in America?

[1588] Well, I mean, if you're fortunate to live near another dojo, right?

[1589] A place that has judo locally, then that's your best opportunity to learn is to go learn from a, another school.

[1590] Unfortunately, sometimes the nearest dojo might not be for two hours or three hours away from where you're at, which is an obstacle.

[1591] You're not going to do that.

[1592] So, I mean, Travis and I did start the American judo system online.

[1593] It's at USAJudo .com.

[1594] And we've broken down every single judo technique to the very, very basic elements of just movement.

[1595] So we teach every technique of how you do it mechanically with just your feet, then how you incorporate your hands and your feet together, how you do it in all directions, moving forward, sideways, backwards, how to then introduce a partner into the movement, how to do basic Uchikomi or repetitions with a partner, then moving with a partner, then how to throw your opponent static, how to throw your opponent.

[1596] So basically from the very foundation of the movement all the way to the most advanced level, we've documented this through separate videos.

[1597] And we've taken now, I think, 12 to 15 of standing techniques combined with a whole bunch of groundwork techniques.

[1598] And our goal is just to continue to build this platform out so that anybody anywhere can learn online and can ask questions.

[1599] We have a live training class every couple weeks, every two weeks he or I answer questions on.

[1600] online for our members.

[1601] Ideally, what we'd like to do is have a standing curriculum for jujitsu instructors that want to learn and become black belts in judo.

[1602] Here's how these are the techniques you need to know.

[1603] This is how many reps you need to do.

[1604] This is how efficient you need to get at those techniques to become certified as an instructor or become a blackbelt.

[1605] and eventually have an online promotion system where anybody anywhere can just submit videos and show us that they can do those techniques and obviously we'll have people review them and this is a dream and a vision but we've already started the platform we're about to do a collaborative effort with USAGito where all of their members will start to get access to this platform as well and if we can get that influx of money and people on the platform it'll allow us to hire and grow it faster.

[1606] So you also want to do like certification there.

[1607] It's not just instruction.

[1608] Correct.

[1609] That would be amazing.

[1610] I mean, for me personally, sort of, I'm mostly in Austin, Texas now.

[1611] Right.

[1612] And there's a few judo schools, but it's not really.

[1613] Right.

[1614] There's not.

[1615] And it's just one of those cities that doesn't quite have.

[1616] I mean, there's a few, it's basically just like a few random judo people that kind of kind of gather together a couple of times a week.

[1617] But it's not a system, a dojo, an instructor, integrated into a jihadistice school or not.

[1618] The problem with most judoos right now is that most of them cater towards the competitive side.

[1619] Also, a lot of them do it recreationally, meaning this isn't how they make a living.

[1620] So they're there three nights a week, or they're there five, even if they're there five nights a week, it's still only one, junior class and one senior class and that's it and it's one size fits all the doesn't matter what level you're at it's one size fits all so you can't get out of the training what you're looking to get out of the training it's whatever the instructor's teaching you know um and you can't learn because it's not at the appropriate level for you and usually you're pushed into doing randori we have no choice but to do the randori part of the training um so it's it's a challenge to go and then a lot of times the schools are old school so they go make you do fall for a half hour.

[1621] They make you do things, you know, make you do things.

[1622] Maybe you're a jih Tzu person who knows how to fall already, but you haven't proven it to the Judo instructor and they don't break the norm.

[1623] I say you still have to fall for six months, which turns a lot of people away as well.

[1624] So it's, you know, it's like any business.

[1625] If you don't deliver on your customer's expectations, you're not going to have very many customers, which is the way it is now.

[1626] So a lot of people who listen to this, but in general in the United States, is Brazilian jiu -jitsu, which has a lot of similarities to judo, as obviously its origins in judo.

[1627] How would you compare the two arts from the perspective of people just interested about both arts?

[1628] Do you recommend people who do jih Tzu get into judo?

[1629] How can it enrich their jihitsu?

[1630] How do you compare the two arts, the actual practice of it, and why it might be useful to you?

[1631] I mean, I think that judo is a hard sport for adults to do.

[1632] It just is, you know, especially people that haven't fallen in a long time, haven't, you know, aren't very athletic, you know, haven't, I think about my own experience, right?

[1633] Other than judo, when did I ever do like a forward somersault?

[1634] Right.

[1635] Maybe when I was in grade school, right?

[1636] That's the last time I've left my feet was in grade school.

[1637] Most people haven't got off of a chair or a couch.

[1638] They spend eight to ten hours a day, either working behind a computer or sitting on a college watching TV, right?

[1639] and they're not that athletic.

[1640] And they haven't done anything athletic at least probably since high school.

[1641] Yeah.

[1642] That's their last athletic endeavor, most of them.

[1643] So you're talking about as an adult that's 35 or 40 wanting to start a sport, judo's a really hard sport to start, especially in today's dojoes that don't have a recreational adult program.

[1644] You know, when it's one size fits all, it's hard.

[1645] So for those people, Jutitsu makes a heck of a lot of sense.

[1646] Good self -defense.

[1647] It's cerebral, where you've got to use your brain, you're a smaller person, you have to use technique, you know, it teaches all the same things as judo, but it's a safe way to do it.

[1648] And because of the validation it has with the UFC and MMA today, right, everybody knows jiu -jitsu.

[1649] So now they can be part of mainstream society and talk intelligently about what they see on television or what's going on on ESPN today, right?

[1650] They have some knowledge.

[1651] So they have an identity.

[1652] And also there's a good culture in Jiu -Jitsu where it's becoming a family.

[1653] You know, the dojo is the family place.

[1654] You go to feel good.

[1655] You go to see your friends.

[1656] You go to get fit.

[1657] And you have a good time.

[1658] Right?

[1659] So it makes a lot of sense why it's growing.

[1660] Judo, on the other hand, I think, is a better sport for children to do.

[1661] It's more, I would say, fun and interactive.

[1662] It's a little easier to teach the kids how to do the throwing skills and for safety and things like that.

[1663] their body can handle more than the adults can they're less likely to get injured you know they can it makes them better athletes because it's a lot more three -dimensional in my opinion you know um so i think there's a good fit between judo can thrive from kids till you know whatever high school college jiu jitsu thrives from that 18 year old up right right now that's kind of where it is So as a dojo, you have to kind of focus on the teens and the college, like early 20s, that kind of.

[1664] Or you need to have, if you're going to be a successful judo dojo, you have to have that recreational, fundamental adult program in your school where people actually come to judo, learn the moves, but aren't pushed into Randori training and pushed into things where they're uncomfortable and they can't control the situation because there's too many unknowns.

[1665] You got an education of Browns.

[1666] You're somebody who's amazing because as an Olympian and an Olympic coach, you've always emphasized kind of balance and education all of that side of life.

[1667] So developing your brain too.

[1668] So you are an Olympic medalist, a coach of Olympic medalists, you're a business owner.

[1669] So successful in all these domains.

[1670] So I have to ask, what advice would you give to young people today, high school, judo age, high school, college, undergrad, how to be successful in their career or just in life in general, how to live a life they can be proud of.

[1671] I think you have to be true to yourself.

[1672] You have to decide what it is you really want to do with your life.

[1673] And it's hard because when I grew up, I didn't know I was going to be successful.

[1674] When I was, you know, when I was young, I didn't know it was going to be an Olympic medalist.

[1675] I certainly did envision myself owning a couple of things.

[1676] of companies that makes their living exclusively for martial arts or judo because that wasn't really an opportunity when I was a kid, but I've created that opportunity.

[1677] I would just say that pick something that you're passionate about.

[1678] You know, I was stuck in a career before where I wasn't passionate about it.

[1679] And it was my wife who said, you know, Jimmy, if you can figure out how to make your living exclusively from martial arts, you know, where your brain and your heart and your passion is all towards one thing that you really like.

[1680] then you'll be successful.

[1681] And I left the job.

[1682] I had three kids.

[1683] I was working for Monster .com.

[1684] I was in internet marketing.

[1685] And I was working for that company.

[1686] Great company.

[1687] Nothing wrong with the company.

[1688] But sitting behind the desk from eight till five.

[1689] And then I get to go to judo from six till nine at night.

[1690] You know, my whole day is tied up doing something that I'm really not passionate about.

[1691] She said, if, you know, if you can figure out how to make money from your dojo and other things judo related, then I think you'll be successful.

[1692] And so she's the one that my wife, Maria, gave me that advice, and I would give that to others.

[1693] Find something that you love doing where it doesn't feel like work, something you're passionate about.

[1694] And if the opportunity doesn't exist, how to make money on it, you can create the opportunity.

[1695] Be resourceful.

[1696] Figure it out.

[1697] Don't let anybody tell you you can't do it, right?

[1698] I didn't know that I could have a 200 -person judo school that only taught judo because that really didn't exist in this country.

[1699] You know, that actually charges money like jujitsu charges, right?

[1700] We're talking not, there's plenty of clubs out there that charge 10 bucks a month that might have 100 people, but there's not many that, you know, with the tuition is $150 a month, having 200 people.

[1701] So that's a successful business.

[1702] But it wasn't done before.

[1703] But be passionate about it.

[1704] Understand you're going to fail.

[1705] Understand you're going to get knocked down, beat up, right?

[1706] There's going to be dark days.

[1707] But you've got to persevere.

[1708] You've got to believe in yourself.

[1709] You've got to have a plan.

[1710] You have to be willing to learn from other people.

[1711] and that's what I did if I didn't know it I brought somebody in to tell me what am I doing wrong like look from the outside what do you see okay great then you got to be willing to change you gotta be willing to adapt you know and I think listening believing in myself and you know creating opportunity and the other thing is helping others something I always did in my judo life and in my business life if somebody came to me and asked for help with, hey, man, is there something you can do to help me?

[1712] I'm trying to get this thing started.

[1713] I'm trying to get this dojo off the ground or I'm trying to run this event series or, you know, I was creative and trying to figure out a way to help them make it work.

[1714] Because if that really was their dream and I could help them do their dream, I felt like that person would then give nothing but good, good comments about us, good, like they've remembered forever.

[1715] They become like family.

[1716] and they've been the best advocates for your business ever.

[1717] And so the kids that I taught at my dojo were treated that way, the people that work for me get treated that way, the people that my customers that I work with and building their dojoes get treated that way, people that ran tournaments, whether it was Grappler's Quest years ago and helping that guy with a full set of math for his, Brian Simmons with his thing or, you know, any of the gracy's.

[1718] It just became like family, And then I just work hard and deliver on what I say I'm going to do.

[1719] If I say I'm going to do it, I do it.

[1720] You know, and I think it goes a long way.

[1721] Well, and I got a comment.

[1722] So in a small way, people may not know.

[1723] I think it's still on YouTube.

[1724] We previously talked many years ago.

[1725] And I remember you were so kind to me. And you didn't really know who I was.

[1726] You just took me as a human being.

[1727] You welcomed me into your dojo.

[1728] And we just had a conversation on a podcast or whatever the heck you call that thing.

[1729] and you were just very kind and you were also just it was the last conversation I had when I showed up to MIT and it stayed with me so I resumed doing this podcast but it stayed with me because you said you said that I did a good job at this and people especially at that time didn't tell me that you know didn't and just that that little act of kindness This is probably just a regular part of your day.

[1730] You had a busy day.

[1731] It was at the end of the day.

[1732] Just saying that, that was powerful.

[1733] And that pays off somehow.

[1734] So thank you for that.

[1735] Yeah.

[1736] But it was sincere, right?

[1737] It was genuine.

[1738] I felt like I had been to so many interviews.

[1739] When it's around the Olympic time, there's lots of beat reporters that come out and they're trying to get your time.

[1740] And they're there because they have to get the story for their newspaper or their television show.

[1741] And a lot of times those people show.

[1742] right and they pronounce my name wrong or they get something wrong about the background or they offend me because they call me five minutes before that they're supposed to be there and say oh sorry we're running late we'll be there an hour and a half well I'm a busy guy too and you know like but you were somebody that showed up was so prepared with your notes knew everything about like the history of what I had done well the questions you asked were intelligent questions they were well thought out.

[1743] And at the end of that interview, I was really genuinely impressed.

[1744] And I wanted to let you know you did a great job because you stood out from the rest.

[1745] Thank you.

[1746] Yeah.

[1747] I mean, for me, it was like showing up to like the mecca, like the track.

[1748] I mean, you know, you don't always want to just tell that to people, but you show up, you know, obviously you're the legend of judo in the United States.

[1749] And so that was like Boston is the mecca.

[1750] That's where you travel.

[1751] to talk to the great.

[1752] So the fact that you were kind to me just stuck with me for a long time.

[1753] So it pays off to be kind to others.

[1754] Yeah.

[1755] To give them a chance.

[1756] Jimmy, thank you so much for giving me another chance and spending your valuable time.

[1757] And you've also were kind enough to invite me to train with you today at your dojo.

[1758] So I can't wait.

[1759] Let's go.

[1760] Let's go do some judo.

[1761] Yeah, awesome.

[1762] Thank you, Lex.

[1763] Thanks for listening to this conversation with Jamie Pedro.

[1764] To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.

[1765] And now, let me leave you some words from Bruce Lee.

[1766] I fear not the man who has practiced 10 ,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10 ,000 times.

[1767] Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.