S5 E14: I'm Not Threatening You, I'm Promising You | Rachel

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] Something was wrong covers mature topics that can be triggering.

[11] Topics such as emotional, physical, and sexual abuse.

[12] Please, as always, use caution when listening.

[13] Opinions of guests on the show are their own and don't necessarily reflect my views or the views of this podcast.

[14] Please note, I am not a therapist or a doctor.

[15] If you or someone you love is being abused, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1 -800 -799 -7233.

[16] If you or someone you love is experiencing a suicidal crisis or emotional distress, please call 1 -800 -273 -8255.

[17] For more resources, visit something was wrong .com Thank you so much.

[18] What I found out months later, my brother had tried to kill himself by jumping out of a second -story window.

[19] And the only reason he has a life today is because Sarah saw him, grabbed him by his jeans, and dragged him back inside.

[20] And then my parents told her that the reason Daniel tried to kill himself was because she did a bad job of raising him.

[21] And then apparently they did tell me one.

[22] He was, I think he tried to jump from a bedroom window.

[23] He tried to jump out a window sill.

[24] I have been terrified my entire life of losing anyone I love to suicide, especially, you know, having a friend die so young, even though it wasn't suicide, like, it was first presented like that, and I still have this morbid fear of it.

[25] And my brother, it was this thing of like, I heard it and I was horrified.

[26] Then I was like, I knew something was wrong.

[27] Like, I just, I knew it.

[28] I could feel it.

[29] So, and then you know me, you don't know me well.

[30] You think you know me, you don't know me well.

[31] So, and then I'm like, well, but then it happened again because I was like, well, how did social service get involved?

[32] Like, did you call?

[33] This is Sarah.

[34] Well, you know, no, I was really stressed out.

[35] And so I said something to my friend Anna.

[36] And she said something to, she said something to her mom who's a mandatory reporter in social.

[37] and then she had to report it.

[38] So then they were having like conversations with the family all to like kind of.

[39] And that made more sense to me as to why they were interviewing the family together because they weren't going at it from a case of you're being abused by your parents.

[40] They were coming at it from you tried to kill yourself.

[41] What's happening?

[42] My parents didn't want me to know because they knew I would lose it and make sure that Daniel was taken away.

[43] I think they told my siblings a yarn and my siblings believed it, one because they I have for a very long time felt like they were hiding things for me. And I don't blame them for this because I know what it's like to be in that situation and feel like you have to protect those people.

[44] But I definitely felt like I would hear about stuff, but it would be like six months after it happened and like barely any details to the point where it was literally on the other side of the country.

[45] Yeah, it's like we want you to know what's happening in our lives, but we don't want you to actually be able to take action against it.

[46] And so it was always done in a way to wear it, like, it was too late for me to, like, like, there was no smoking gun.

[47] I didn't have any way to, like, actually do anything about it.

[48] And I know my parents most likely cultivated that in them.

[49] I don't know how much of that.

[50] They truly kept for me out of that fear.

[51] But it was definitely the sense of, like, well, you know, she's volatile.

[52] You know, we have to, like, just be careful what you say to her.

[53] Which, again, is what my parents, that is my parents.

[54] Like, I don't blame them for it because that, that language is what my parents put in my own mouth.

[55] You know, I've said those words because of what they've said to me. So I can't blame them because I know, I know how they get you thinking like that.

[56] Apparently, he tried to kill himself again.

[57] And then he tried it again for a third time at a youth camp that he was at.

[58] And he got caught that time.

[59] And I lost my mind when I heard this.

[60] I was so furious.

[61] And I don't think I've truly even worked through my anger.

[62] A lot of stuff has been.

[63] had been happening while I was cut off from my parents, even in my own life.

[64] And the more I was cut off from them, and the more I felt empowered to truly, like, state my own thoughts, state my own beliefs.

[65] And so I came out last year, on the last day of pride, I came out on Facebook.

[66] And it was very nerve -wracking, and a lot of people were very, very responsive and very lovely and very kind and a lot of people said very stupid things and I had to block some people and a lot of Jake's family members said stuff that was not great.

[67] I'm so sorry.

[68] It, you know, it was nowhere as bad as it, nowhere as bad as it could have been.

[69] I think Jake was more shocked, hurt and furious than I was because I think I expected it and I don't think he did.

[70] So when that happened though, I'm not kidding you that I came out and within a month two different people who are part of that original cult that my parents had and can you see contacted me and I think me coming out on Facebook was a very clear indicator of like oh you are clearly no longer like anywhere connected with your parents if you are coming out that was like such a thing in my family that they were like oh you're definitely safe to talk to and so they started communicating with me and I was being very open.

[71] You know, I was very much an open book at this point.

[72] So I was like, they were like, how are you doing?

[73] How's this?

[74] I'm like, well, honestly, things aren't great.

[75] I'm not connected with my parents anymore.

[76] This is what's happening.

[77] And it's really interesting to me when you start telling the truth of what's actually happening, people are like, oh, well, funny, you should say that.

[78] This also happened to me. And I didn't think much of it, but blah, blah, blah.

[79] And it was like so much stuff started to come.

[80] out.

[81] So the first lady that contacted me was Catherine, who was our babysitter way, way, way back when that we loved a lot.

[82] And she gotten married to a guy that lived in her house.

[83] And we were very close with.

[84] And then all of a sudden my parents were like, nope, you can't go anywhere near him anymore.

[85] Like your dad's jealous.

[86] Like, well, not that you can't go near him.

[87] You just can't spend as much time with him.

[88] You know, your dad's jealous.

[89] Your little sister called him dad accidentally and, you know, you just, you need to stop.

[90] And we were always very frustrated and hurt by them saying that because our father was never around.

[91] And our mother was always busy and stressed.

[92] And this was someone that was very kind to us and read us books and like actually played with us.

[93] And, you know, I confronted my mother.

[94] I think when I was 13, it was just before I went to Hawaii.

[95] I confronted her and said, even if that was the case, like it was very selfish of you guys just because you were feeling threatened to stop us from hanging out with him.

[96] And she said, you know, we didn't want to say anything, but we had found out his ex -wife had contacted us and we had found out that way back when in his first marriage that, you know, he had some trouble with like child pornography and, you know, had, well, not, she didn't even say child pornography.

[97] I take that back.

[98] He had some trouble, like, you know, he had some thoughts around kids and had some issues with that.

[99] But that's like, you know, that was way gone.

[100] But we found that out and we just wanted you guys to be careful around him.

[101] It was such an insane thing to say at that time.

[102] Even then at 13, I was aware.

[103] that my parents would come up with scenarios as to why they were right and someone else was wrong, that I thought they were lying.

[104] Because I was like, you would never have allowed him anywhere nearest at all ever again if that was the case.

[105] And he still lived with us, and we were bridesmaids in his wedding.

[106] It clearly can't be the case.

[107] Like, you would never have let us around him if that was the case.

[108] Like, I didn't tell her I thought she was lying, but in my brain I thought she was.

[109] Cut two, I've come out last year.

[110] And Catherine, you know, we're getting to know each other again.

[111] We're chatting about our lives because I asked her, how are you?

[112] Like, what's going on in your life?

[113] And she said, well, I'm sure you've heard about my husband.

[114] And I said, no, what's going on?

[115] What do you mean?

[116] And she said, you know, she sent me a link basically to news stories.

[117] And he had been arrested the year before.

[118] They had found the largest amount of child pornography in the area on his computer.

[119] he had photos of her nieces and nephews on his computer it was horrific and i like went cold in that moment because i was remembering what my mother had said to me and i was like holy shit like she wasn't lying but that also made me feel weird because i was like wait she wasn't lying but he still lived with us and so i said um did my parents ever tell you Like, you know, that, they thought that he was aware of this.

[120] And she said, well, what do you mean?

[121] I said, Catherine, they knew.

[122] And she was like, no, they never said anything.

[123] And I'm thinking back to like when this happened, I'm like, this was before they got married.

[124] And my parents kind of like pushed them together.

[125] Like they definitely like heavily implied that they were supposed to be together.

[126] That God had told them they were supposed to be together.

[127] Like I said, we were bridesmaids in their wedding.

[128] Like, it was this huge big thing.

[129] She was one of the original members of our church and one of my parents' best friends.

[130] So she was one of your parents' best friends.

[131] She marries this other guy who you guys, who lived in the house.

[132] You guys had gotten close to him.

[133] And we'd known him for a while at this point.

[134] And then, if I'm remembering it correctly, your parents, like, got jealous, and that's what they had originally told to you.

[135] And then your mom later tells you when you're 13 that the reason is because he, sorry, how did you word it?

[136] She said something about like he had struggled with feeling a certain way towards children in his first marriage.

[137] That had been a thing like way back when and his wife was letting us know.

[138] But it wasn't a thing anymore.

[139] It was something he had struggled with before, you know, but we still, we wanted to be extra careful.

[140] Here's the thing.

[141] They weren't being extra careful.

[142] And it wasn't a thing that was in the way distant past that they had asked, like that, you know, the wife had contacted them about.

[143] So Catherine is telling me all of this, and she is telling me that, you know, they said they didn't know.

[144] And I said, well, that timeline doesn't match up because they told me when I was 13.

[145] And that happened before you guys even started dating.

[146] So they would have known about this before that.

[147] And I was like, I am so sorry.

[148] And she was like, oh, my God, this is crazy.

[149] And so she then went back and confronted my mother.

[150] And my mother said, I thought you knew.

[151] And Catherine told me that she was like, I had a stress heart attack.

[152] Like, I was so freaked out.

[153] And then, you know, so horrified at the thought that she would think that I would think that was okay.

[154] So then I went to my sister, Hannah, and I was like, what is happening?

[155] Like, and I guess she was like, well, I was there when mom was talking to Catherine.

[156] And, you know, mom just honestly thought Catherine knew.

[157] And, you know, going on and on and on, I said, Hannah, even if they fully thought that they had told her in there, everything was fine.

[158] Why would you ever let someone you cared about marry someone like that?

[159] And she's like, I don't know.

[160] And I think she was definitely at a point where she's like, I don't know and I don't even have the energy to think about this anymore.

[161] But I kind of pushed her on that.

[162] And a couple days later, she said, like, they got into a fight and she really began pressing my mom about that.

[163] And she said that she found out that they had lied about the ex -wife.

[164] I don't know if they went and talked to the ex -wife after, but that was not how they found out that he had previous inclinations towards, like, pedophilia.

[165] What they had actually found was on our, like, computer in the house that everyone used, they had found child pornography on that computer.

[166] And while this person is living with their children to be clear.

[167] While this person is babysitting their children.

[168] They didn't call the police.

[169] They didn't, tell anyone.

[170] He still lived with us for a while.

[171] They just said, don't hang out with him alone.

[172] And then told us it was because dad was jealous.

[173] And then proceeded to place him and Catherine together, not tell her, and then have the fucking audacity to say, oh, we thought you knew her family were victimized by this man and it's my parents fault that blood is on their hands and she's so sweet she was like i know i just i don't know if i should be telling you this i don't want to you know make things even more strain between your parents i don't want to give you more like anger towards them or more grief or more bitterness and i said katherine my entire life i felt like something was off but i also felt like i was just a bad kid or that they were just you know slightly strict.

[174] I said, you have just told me that not only my, it's not that my parents are just slightly bad or strict or mean.

[175] They are objectively evil people.

[176] It's like, you have freed me from so much like guilt and stress right now.

[177] Like, you have not burdened me. You have freed me. It was this like intense crystallizing moment of my parents aren't just crappy abusive people to us.

[178] they're literally a danger to everyone they've come into contact with.

[179] Like they're actually not safe for the public.

[180] So we went back and forth and it was horrific for both of us, but I think explained a lot.

[181] And I think for her having me come up and say, no, they definitely knew beforehand made her feel less crazy and allowed her to be like, well, okay, they didn't just tell me and I forgot or decided that it was okay.

[182] Like, no, they hid this from me, which then I began thinking more because she said, now that I think about it, like I was so wrapped up in the church.

[183] And I for a long time, personally myself, had felt like our church had been very culty.

[184] But I hadn't really said those words out loud.

[185] But she said, you know, Rachel, I felt like coming out of your parents' church, I felt like I had to be deprogrammed.

[186] Like it was a cult.

[187] I was like, yeah.

[188] I was like, oh my God, it is.

[189] Like, yeah, you're right.

[190] Like, this is what I've thought for so long.

[191] but I just thought I was being dramatic.

[192] She said, no. Like, I literally told my parents that the church was more important than them.

[193] And I barely spoke to them for years.

[194] I was like, oh, wait.

[195] And at this point, I love podcasts.

[196] I've been listening to a ton of podcasts about cult.

[197] The more I'd listened to them, the more I had felt like I recognized my parents in them.

[198] But when she said that, I was like, oh, well, that's classic cult behavior, you know, separating your followers from their family and making them feel like the, mission is more important than anything else.

[199] So that was intense.

[200] And then she said, you know, my sister, you know, they heard so many people.

[201] My sister, who had moved up somewhere along the line to live in Can you see with her as well, at some point, there had been another guy in the church that had like alcohol issues or something.

[202] And they had kind of tried to push them together as well.

[203] And she didn't want it to have anything to do with this guy.

[204] And he ended up leaving the church and they basically made her feel like shit.

[205] Like it was her fault that this person, you know, she had chased him away from God.

[206] I was like, oh, that's another case of them trying to voice like these men who have intense issues onto women and then blame them when they don't fix them.

[207] And then I remember the third time way, way, way, way back when they had their church was going strong and can you see the guy that, I don't know if you remember the story where I told you about the guy who walked up and yanked on my my braids and then I punched him and I got in trouble for that.

[208] The guy who also stabbed somebody or came home stabbed?

[209] That was a different guy.

[210] Oh, okay.

[211] This guy, he was called Davey.

[212] And he was also the one that showed up drunk and was trying to get inside the house when we had to hide under her table.

[213] He was obsessed with this lady in the church and he would tease her constantly and make remarks.

[214] And looking back at it now, it seems a lot like sexual harassment.

[215] And back then, it was like a joke in the church.

[216] And my dad thought it was funny.

[217] and she would be so angry and yell at him so much for it and be so mean to him.

[218] And I remember one time being in the car.

[219] Like it was so clear this guy had a big crush on her and she was not having it.

[220] And my dad said something along the lines of, Rosalind's just, she's just too picky.

[221] You know, the only perfect man is Jesus.

[222] And if she's looking for the perfect man, like she's just going to be alone forever.

[223] And at the time, I thought that was a weird thing to say.

[224] And looking back, I was like, oh my God, there is a pattern.

[225] there's a crazy pattern in this church of you trying to like fix these men by getting these women to like either be in relationships or marry them and then blaming them when the men when it doesn't work out and attacking them if they don't comply.

[226] They were using these women in the church to like rehab these men.

[227] Well and there's also I think this idea in a lot of churches or even evangelical Christianity where it's like marriage is God's plan and the family unit is God's plan and when that's broken that's what causes a lot of.

[228] you know, pain in people's lives.

[229] And so, you know, that's how we fix it.

[230] And it's these women who just don't want to follow God's plan.

[231] They're not being obedient or, you know, they're not doing this or they're not doing that.

[232] And it was weird because I had never ever like thought of any, like, there was never like a sexual component to our cult.

[233] But when I think about it, it was like almost like the opposite of it.

[234] Like there wasn't like sexual promiscuity, but there was this like intense need to control everyone's like relationship and create relationships and control like couples.

[235] Yeah, that's some cult shit.

[236] Yeah.

[237] And I had never, like, put all the pieces together.

[238] And I remember talking with Catherine and just, like, going up to my husband and being like, Jack!

[239] He was like, he heard all of it.

[240] And he was like, oh, my God.

[241] I was like, I wasn't crazy.

[242] I told you it was a cult.

[243] He was like, you did.

[244] You must have felt so validated.

[245] Oh, my God.

[246] I like, yeah.

[247] And I, like, I think she felt bad because she could tell, like, how affected I was by it and how I was like, what?

[248] I was so angry for her.

[249] but I think she didn't want to cause me more pain.

[250] You know, she felt so bad.

[251] And like, to this day, we talk.

[252] She's like, I just, I wish I could have done something.

[253] I wish I had seen what was happening.

[254] Like, we were all there and none of us saw it.

[255] My dad is so good at this stuff.

[256] And my mom is so good at this stuff.

[257] Like, I didn't even know what was happening to me. And it was happening to me. Like, that's what happens when you were around people like that who control that narrative and create that lie.

[258] Like, it's not your fault.

[259] We had another lady in the church who, she was the one who her family lived with us for a little bit.

[260] And her kids were seen as the perfect kids, you know, my parents' eyes.

[261] And we weren't perfect.

[262] And that's why they got mad at us.

[263] And my parents made me believe that she was out to get me. And this woman was constantly, like, trying to hurt me. And I had hated her for so long.

[264] She actually contacted me. And at this point, I think I was shocked to hear from her.

[265] But I was also like, well, if I thought you were a bad person growing up, you probably were.

[266] I was very blonde with her.

[267] I said, you know, growing up, I felt like you hated me. And I felt like you made my life miserable.

[268] And I thought that you were out to get me. And she's like, I'm so sorry.

[269] I wasn't.

[270] And, you know, she was like, I wish we could assume what was going on.

[271] Like we knew there were, we really, you know, we felt like there was weird stuff going on.

[272] But we didn't truly know what was happening.

[273] But out of that, it was like, I started talking to her and she started talking to Catherine.

[274] And Catherine was like, well, you're clearly.

[275] telling me that your parents knew and allowed you to live alongside a potential like pedophile slash child molester you know he could have done whatever he wanted to me thank god he just was comfortable just looking at me but he could have done whatever like he would tell me I was beautiful all the time and I would always like think it was weird because I was like I'm clearly not you know I didn't think I was ugly but I was like I'm a ragamuffin running around with like mud in my hair like I know I'm objectively currently not beautiful but he was obsessed with like telling me that.

[276] I always had thought that was weird and had been irritated by it.

[277] And so looking back, I'm like, oh, my God.

[278] Like, I know exactly what he meant when he said that now.

[279] And like, it feels awful.

[280] I'm so sorry.

[281] Before I knew all of this, I would just think, oh, I thought it was weird because I was so insecure.

[282] I didn't think I could be beautiful.

[283] And I was so freaked out, but I thought that, you know, anyone would think I was beautiful.

[284] You know, that was the reason I found it weird.

[285] And now looking back, I'm like, oh, no, that was not the reason I found it weird.

[286] that was your gut telling you this something is wrong that was my gut saying like an adult man should not be telling like a scrappy little child that they thought they were beautiful so now everybody's getting connected so you're connecting with Catherine and Catherine's connecting with this other lady yeah and you're all kind of piecing it together yeah and it felt like we were almost creating like this little like the support like the support group for ex members of my parents churches but Catherine reached out to me she said you know the more I think about it's like I'm a mandatory reporter you're your parents allowed, like, a potential pedophile and child molesters to live with you.

[287] Like, I have to report that.

[288] She's like, I was like, girl, if you haven't already reported it, report it.

[289] And apparently, a while ago, Haley had actually reported some concerns as well.

[290] Haley is the other lady.

[291] But it hadn't gone anywhere.

[292] Apparently, when Catherine reported what she knew, they said that this family was known to them and said that several reports had been made.

[293] And I think Haley's was one of them.

[294] But I think Catherine's report was what pushed it over the edge.

[295] that's when the police actually got involved.

[296] That's when it stopped being like, oh, we're talking to your brother because, you know, he tried to kill himself and it went to like, oh, something's wrong.

[297] And so that was September of last year.

[298] And I had just gone in for a operation on my wrist.

[299] I had a fall a couple years ago and I developed like a cyst on my wrist.

[300] And so I was getting it removed.

[301] And so I had that done and I was very nervous for it, but it went well.

[302] And so I was in bed.

[303] And I get a message from Catherine.

[304] and she said, I just had a policeman call me about my report I made about what happened.

[305] He wants you to call him.

[306] Here's his number.

[307] And I have been piecing this stuff, I tell you.

[308] I've been piecing this stuff together for like four or five years at this point.

[309] I've been processing it for so long, piecemealing all this information together for so long.

[310] It was like a month of talking to these people.

[311] I suddenly have a policeman wanting to talk to me. And I know exactly what it's about.

[312] And I'm holding this number like, oh my God, it's here.

[313] It's here.

[314] So I called him and he basically said, like, is this true?

[315] And I gave him a statement over the phone.

[316] And we talked about it for a long time.

[317] And he said, okay, this is not okay.

[318] And I need you to write up your statement and send it in.

[319] But we're most likely going to remove your siblings from your parents' home.

[320] this weekend and arrest them.

[321] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[322] I'm Sachi Cole.

[323] And I'm Sarah Haggy.

[324] And we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once the facade falls away.

[325] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit followed by Larry King, and no real product to push.

[326] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[327] To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Judice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[328] Follow Scamfluencers on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[329] You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad -free right now.

[330] on OneJ Plus.

[331] I'm Dan Tversky.

[332] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[333] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[334] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[335] She's like, I can't.

[336] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[337] It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[338] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[339] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[340] Well, you were holding something back intentionally.

[341] Yeah, yeah.

[342] Well, yeah.

[343] No, it's hysteria.

[344] It's all in your head.

[345] It's not physical.

[346] Oh, my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[347] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the Witches of Salem?

[348] Or is it something else entirely?

[349] Something's wrong here.

[350] Something's not right.

[351] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[352] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[353] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[354] You can binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[355] I tell you, I thought I was in the Twilight Zone.

[356] Like after years of this stuff happening and people finding out and nothing happened.

[357] Like I was, oh my goodness.

[358] And I was also just hopped up on pain meds as well from my surgery.

[359] So it was so surreal.

[360] And the next day, I wrote it up.

[361] And I hadn't been feeling very well, but I thought it was just from the surgery.

[362] And And I wrote up my statement.

[363] I sent it in.

[364] And that next day, I got a call for my sister.

[365] And she said, hey, they've removed our siblings.

[366] Like, I'm now taking care of them.

[367] They removed Daniel and Sarah.

[368] She wasn't 18 yet.

[369] And she was also still in house.

[370] And they couldn't leave her there.

[371] I mean, I'm glad they didn't.

[372] Yes.

[373] Well, and they got a statement from Hannah.

[374] And then Hannah basically said, they like, we need to talk to Sarah.

[375] And she was like, okay, well, I'll call her because she wanted to be there.

[376] with her.

[377] Hannah's so lovely.

[378] She, yeah, she's great.

[379] She, like, didn't want Sarah to be on her own when the police talked to her.

[380] So she called Sarah and asked her to come to the house and Sarah sat there and they gave them their statements.

[381] And I come to find out later because I was like, well, where's Rebecca and all of this?

[382] So Rebecca had moved out and had gone to a different church and was making some friends.

[383] And one of them was a professional counselor and had kind of been slowly talking to Rebecca on the side.

[384] It was like official therapy, but she was definitely like sitting down and like helping her process things.

[385] And some stuff had happened in the house.

[386] I think it was like the last time my brother tried to kill himself and it got really bad.

[387] Rebecca actually called up his friend said like, I need to get out.

[388] Like something is really bad.

[389] And so she went to go stay at this friend's house and told her everything.

[390] And, you know, she's a counselor.

[391] So like Rebecca knew like if she told her like it was going to get out.

[392] And kudos to her.

[393] She did what I couldn't.

[394] She had the knowledge she was there and she went and told someone.

[395] And it was weird.

[396] It all happened at once because I think Rebecca told them that.

[397] And then Catherine called and then Haley followed up for a second time.

[398] It was like everything happened at once.

[399] And they were like, oh, okay, we need to do something.

[400] Thank God.

[401] Yeah.

[402] And Rebecca, again, the poor thing, like she knew what she had done.

[403] And so she was terrified that we would hate her.

[404] She was terrified.

[405] Like, I will confess.

[406] I was a little frustrated.

[407] that she knew for a couple days that this might happen.

[408] It didn't tell us because it was so, like, crazy and stressful when it happened.

[409] But I was so proud of her and so thankful that, like, I knew stuff had been happening for years, but I also knew that they weren't telling me. And finally, you know, she had gathered, you know, the bravery and the courage to do this.

[410] So all of this is happening.

[411] And I'm still, it's still, like, in the works.

[412] Like, they interviewed Hannah and Sarah.

[413] And then I said, okay, we're going to come tonight and take Daniel.

[414] And so that happens Sunday night, and I'm still feeling kind of really, really crappy.

[415] And Monday rolls around, and I'm feeling awful, awful.

[416] And so I actually end up going to urgent care.

[417] And my husband had had like walking pneumonia about a month before.

[418] And I was like, hey, you know, my husband had this.

[419] I think I might have, you know, pneumonia.

[420] And so much stuff is going on.

[421] And I'm in the urgent care.

[422] And this nurse looks at me and goes, why do you think you have not?

[423] pneumonia.

[424] And literally 10 seconds later, I pass out.

[425] And then I wake up and I have EMTs all around me. I'm being strapped to a gurney.

[426] Like they said my brain had lost so much oxygen that like I could have been dead.

[427] Like if I hadn't gone to urgent care.

[428] And so all of this is happening.

[429] Like as my family has been like ripped apart and my parents are arrested.

[430] Like my parents were arrested that night and spent a night in jail.

[431] I am also in the emergency room for hours as they're doing tests.

[432] they finally figure out, yes, it is pneumonia.

[433] I think I was on oxygen for 24 hours.

[434] I was in the hospital for three days, basically.

[435] I'm so sorry.

[436] I hope they still had you on drugs or something.

[437] Oh, yeah.

[438] I was so hopped up.

[439] But it was one of those things where so much was happening that I was in a state of almost like, well, this might as well happen.

[440] What else can happen?

[441] Like, it was, I was, again, I think it's that self -defense mechanism where, like, when shit really hits a fan, you just kind of make jokes about it because you don't know what else to do.

[442] I remember I was so.

[443] thirsty and so exhausted and they wouldn't let me sleep when I got to the emergency room.

[444] And I was there for like, I think three or four hours before they actually admitted me. And they wouldn't let me drink anything.

[445] But they finally admitted me into hospital, I think, around like 12 o 'clock at night.

[446] And everyone left.

[447] My husband had to go home.

[448] I was hooked up to this machine.

[449] You know, had ivies in my arm.

[450] I was trying to sleep in a way where I didn't jostle them.

[451] And it was like the reality.

[452] Like everything was like still like the first time that entire weekend.

[453] Like the reality like hit me. I've never felt more alone and more I don't just lost like in that second like I was truly like there was no going back there was no me there was no more of me being like this is your last chance or you know saying like I'm I'm not gonna talk to you or like I'm mad at you like there was no way our family would ever ever go back to the way it was like this was like truly like a change.

[454] My family, as I had known it, for the past 26 years in my life, was no longer a thing.

[455] And that's good, but it's still a loss, you know, and I sat there, and all of a sudden, like, I'm remembering all the good times.

[456] I'm remembering all the times my mom went out super late in the snow to get extra Christmas presents because she found something.

[457] And even though my dad didn't want her to spend money, she just thought it was so cute, and she wanted us to have it.

[458] Like, I'm remembering all this little stuff that my parents did and all the good times, and I just, like, I'm alone.

[459] I'm freezing cold.

[460] My IV thing won't stop fucking beeping.

[461] And I just started, like, bawling.

[462] I just felt like there was no one I could talk to.

[463] Like, in that moment, I think I tried to call my grandmother.

[464] Like, I tried to call my mom's mom just to be like, I need to talk to.

[465] Like, I mean, honestly, in that moment, I wanted to talk to my mommy, you know, everything was falling apart and I wanted my mom and I didn't have a mom anymore.

[466] You know, I hadn't had a mom for a long time.

[467] So I did the next best thing.

[468] I called her mom, my granny.

[469] But the time difference was gone so she didn't pick up.

[470] So I was alone.

[471] I think I ended up.

[472] It feels like grief is what you're describing in a lot of ways.

[473] I, it felt the same as when my friend died.

[474] I don't think I would fully have understood how much I was grieving if I hadn't like had the experience of losing, of having someone actually die and not be there be there anymore.

[475] Like it was the same sensation.

[476] That the family that I knew as my family was dead and could never be again.

[477] Even if by some like miracle, my parents got their crap together and like became amazing.

[478] Like we would never go back.

[479] Like everything was gone.

[480] And regardless of how amazing that was and what a blessing that was and how good that is in that moment, it was just like so much it happened and I was alone and I was so scared.

[481] I woke up the next morning and my husband came in and I was like my sister just has my brother.

[482] Like there's like everything's insane right now.

[483] My parents are still like in jail.

[484] I'm like contacting like, you know, Catherine and Haley because you know, they knew like stuff was going to happen because they were contacted.

[485] So they arrested your parents when they took Daniel.

[486] They did.

[487] Okay.

[488] And they later, you know, said we don't have enough to charge you on.

[489] So they released them after that night.

[490] And apparently I found out later that like, yeah, they refused to admit to anything and my mother pretended like nothing had happened, which was not great.

[491] And then apparently the person, the mother of my sister's friend who had reported it, apparently my dad said something to her like, well, I just don't understand why you had to get the police involved.

[492] I don't understand why it was so serious that you had to like call the police.

[493] Like I just don't get it.

[494] I'm like, cool.

[495] Even in the moment, where the literal police are taking your kids away from you, you still don't understand why your actions are such a big deal.

[496] Like, you truly have, don't care.

[497] So it's the next day, it's my first day in hospital.

[498] I'm, I finally had enough fluids and everything.

[499] And so I felt like refreshed and like, okay.

[500] And then kind of reality set in.

[501] I was like, my parents have just been arrested.

[502] My siblings are going crazy trying to like get set up.

[503] No one's told our family.

[504] Our grandparents don't know.

[505] Our cousins and aunts don't know.

[506] No one knows what's happening.

[507] Oh, okay.

[508] This is something I have to do.

[509] This is how I can contribute to, like, contribute to, like, my family.

[510] So I had to call my grandmothers and tell them what had happened.

[511] And it is a weird thing having to call your, both of your grandmothers and tell them that their children are in jail for hurting you.

[512] My mom's mom had not wanted it to end like this, but I think was...

[513] kind of had seen a possibility of that coming because I had been talking to her for a while and had slowly been letting her in on what had been, what I knew had been happening.

[514] You know, I didn't know half of the stuff that was actually happening.

[515] She's so great.

[516] Like my mom would like text her about stuff and she would instantly like text me and be like, your mom's saying this and like blah, blah, blah, blah.

[517] And like make sure that I knew whatever my mom was saying about us.

[518] But I had to call my dad's mother.

[519] And she was the one that, you know, we've been told like, don't ever tell her what's happening because you'll wreck her and dad's relationship and how can you do that to your dad.

[520] And, you know, they should be, they should be able to get along and they should be able to have a relationship and you can't ever tell her.

[521] Like, she'll never, like, forgive you or she'll never, like, be able to handle it.

[522] But it was in that moment where I was like, okay, this is so stupid.

[523] Like, no, she has to know.

[524] I have to tell her.

[525] I have to, and I think I felt that for a while, but have been trying to, like, build up the courage to broach that with her.

[526] And, like, how do you even begin that conversation?

[527] But hey, I've been like not telling you for all these years of what's happening.

[528] And this finally got to the point where I was like, okay, well, she has to know.

[529] Like either she's going to find out one way or another and I want her to find out for me. So I had texted my cousin.

[530] We hadn't really interacted very much.

[531] I mean, we weren't very close to that side of the family at all.

[532] Stuff had just been really hard.

[533] And their relationship with my parents were really strained.

[534] And, you know, they said, like, you know, they just, they don't really like you guys.

[535] and, you know, they're not good people or they're not, you know, they don't, they're too busy.

[536] They don't want to come off and visit, you know, they'll see us when they see us.

[537] And it was just, you got this sense of like they just didn't.

[538] You were part of their family and they saw you now and then because of that, but they didn't really, like, care.

[539] And this was your dad's side of the family, right?

[540] Yes.

[541] Yes.

[542] And that was, like, what we got from, like, my mom and my dad constantly.

[543] And I had kind of been connecting with my cousin now and then.

[544] But I also felt kind of like I didn't want to come on too.

[545] strong and be like, hey, you know, I want to be best friends if, you know, they didn't, if they thought it was weird.

[546] You know, that was the feeling what they think were weird.

[547] But I texted and I was like, hey, this is going down.

[548] I'm going to call granny.

[549] Like, make sure your mother, like, make sure my aunt, Elaine is like ready to, like, step in if she needs to because I don't know what's going to happen.

[550] And then I called my grandmother.

[551] And looking back, like, it seems almost comical now because I had to be like, hey, grand, I'm in the hospital with pneumonia.

[552] That's not the reason I'm calling you.

[553] Funny as that seems, I almost died from pneumonia.

[554] That's not why I'm calling.

[555] There's something worse.

[556] Looking back, I find the humor in it, but it was just like, oh, my God.

[557] Because she was like, you're in the hostel of pneumonia?

[558] It had to be like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[559] However, I told her.

[560] She howled.

[561] Like, I've never heard anyone cry before.

[562] I think I would be haunted by that sound for the rest of my life.

[563] like she's such a strong person and she worked so hard to pull herself and her kids out of an abusive situation and she knows what it's like to be in there and she tried so hard to like instill that in her kids and then she found out after like 26 years that her son who she had tried to say from his abusive father who went back to his abusive father and chose him over her have been abusing his kids.

[564] She was broken and absolutely furious.

[565] And she's such like an amazing loving person.

[566] Like she was absolutely broken.

[567] And then the minute she like felt that I was like crying as well and stressed out.

[568] She was like, no, she's like, granny loves you.

[569] Because she was like, why didn't you tell me?

[570] Why didn't you tell me?

[571] I was like, we didn't know what to do.

[572] We didn't know how you'd react.

[573] Like they made us feel like this.

[574] And like she was like, no. She was like, granny loves you.

[575] Okay.

[576] She was like, your granny loves you.

[577] And I just, I started like, tears.

[578] hearing up, you know, on the phone with her.

[579] And she, um, has also switched to like fury.

[580] She was like, she was like, they're so lucky.

[581] I have a heart condition.

[582] Because otherwise I'm just going to march down the A -9 and like beat them up myself.

[583] Like she was ready to go to war.

[584] I love her.

[585] So she's amazing.

[586] My granny's the best.

[587] So I got off the phone with her.

[588] Like, you know, we kind of, we had said what we needed to say.

[589] And there was both a lot of emotions for us to process.

[590] us.

[591] So we got off the phone and then like five minutes later, I get a call back.

[592] And I'm like, oh, Granny, are you okay?

[593] And it was my aunt Elaine.

[594] And my grand had told her what had happened and told her that, you know, that we basically thought that they didn't care about us and that, you know, like us.

[595] And she called me back, my international call, spending money just to be like, I need you to know that like we love you guys so much.

[596] And that was never the case and your parents lied to you.

[597] And we always are sad that you weren't in our lives more.

[598] And like, we've got your back.

[599] that that happened.

[600] And I think when I called them, it was like probably around like five o 'clock, four or five o 'clock their time, PM.

[601] And the next day, like they had, they packed up everything with my aunt and my uncle and my granny.

[602] And they drove down to Inverness.

[603] And they found my siblings and they took them to the store, got them clothes, got them like whatever they needed because, you know, they just had to grab stuff and leave.

[604] They didn't have time to get everything out and like got them set up.

[605] And I had never in my life realized that we had family members that we could count on like that, that would do that.

[606] I don't think it even occurred to us to look for them, to look to them for help in that way.

[607] And so it was this crazy juxtaposition of like immense loss and pain and stress and then almost like this wonderful gift of like reconciliation out of it.

[608] We lost our parents, but we gained our family back.

[609] And they loved us and supported us and like came to our aid.

[610] Like my my uncle on my mom's side sent money.

[611] Catherine sent up money to like help with my siblings.

[612] Jake's family heard about it.

[613] And like within like one day of me telling them what happened, his mom had gotten money together.

[614] His grandparents had gotten money together.

[615] His mom's sister had gotten money together.

[616] Like we didn't ask them for anything.

[617] They just got together like sent in to help Hannah and Charles, you know.

[618] It was um it was so weird because you you were feeling so much.

[619] I think for a while I was just so numb to it all because they was so overwhelmed with so much trauma and so much pain and grief, but being so overwhelmed with so much love and support that we'd never had in our lives from people that, you know, were always family, but they were like very distant family that, you know, you saw every couple years maybe.

[620] It was like, you know, you told them what happened and they just swarmed and to help.

[621] And life is still hard.

[622] And, you know, it was hard for many months after that.

[623] But it felt like shit hit the fan and there was actually people there.

[624] We didn't know that.

[625] We didn't know there was going to be people there.

[626] Finally, people said enough and said something and did something.

[627] Well, yeah.

[628] And just to have people not only like be there, but to be so angry for you and protective over you.

[629] Like I'm not used to having family members be protective over me. and like my uncle he um actually when i came out on facebook there um with some people saying some nasty stuff and he like got on and just like read them to filth and like i haven't really spoken to him at much at this point like it was like we were on good terms but again you see each other every couple years you know and he just like got on there and he was like she's not asking for permission she's not trying to explain herself she's just informing you her marriage is like nothing to do with you guys and like it was just one of the most heartwarming moments of my life and like he messaged me after that and was like he's like I need to like I went through your Facebook and I suddenly saw all these like vague things about abuse like what is happening and so he found out all about this like literally just before it went down so it was like everything in a weird way like me coming out put so many things into motion that helped us because I think this that would have happened like my parents being arrested would have happened regardless of that.

[630] But like that put me in contact with so many people that actually like helped and like supported us once it did happen.

[631] And I don't know if I would have even had the courage to like talk to any of those people or know that beforehand.

[632] I'm so proud of you.

[633] Like that's fucking awesome, dude.

[634] It's incredible.

[635] Like what you overcame and what you've done and what your siblings have done for each other and how your family has been brought together.

[636] Well, and to have, like, your grandma and your uncle talk about how proud they are and talk about it openly in social media and, like, how strong you are and how grateful they are to have you as part of their family, like, not only to, like, have support from your family, but to have them publicly claim you and be proud to be associated with you, I've never had, yeah, oh, man. That's amazing.

[637] So your parents ended up being released, you said, from jail.

[638] So they're not in jail right now?

[639] No. So they were released.

[640] Social services had determined that they were not suitable and had actually gotten them to sign over custody of my siblings to my sister.

[641] So regardless of what the court said social services had decided that they could no longer be guardians.

[642] The policeman I originally spoke with on the phone was lovely.

[643] and I he kept me up to date like I was emailing him constantly and he emailed me back a lot and basically said that they are launching an investigation into my father and that it had gone into like the domestic and a child abuse crimes unit and so I got transferred to another detective then and did my best to help the investigation anywhere it could and um they've decided to press charges I guess my father so that is coming up soon don't know what's going to happen It feels like finally coming full circle and like way, I remember way back when as a child getting into like a rough house fight and he wouldn't let me up and I said, I'm going to call the police.

[644] And he said, call the police.

[645] I don't care.

[646] And would make comments about, I'll gladly go to jail for spanking my kids and being here and being like, good.

[647] Well, guess what?

[648] I actually made you answer for your crimes.

[649] Like I actually told someone and they're holding you accountable.

[650] hell yeah it's I think people always struggle when I tell my story like they don't know what to say and they don't know if they should feel bad or if it's good and for me it's like it was stressful and it was a hard thing to go through but so much good only good things could come out of it and for me it feels like a victory like I remember when I cut my mom off and I like I promised her like you hurt my siblings you're starting a war you won't win I'm not threatening you and promising you and And I feel like come full circle and I've kept my promise.

[651] Nothing's fixed.

[652] Nothing is done.

[653] And my siblings may have a ton to fight through.

[654] But we're actually standing up for ourselves.

[655] Yeah.

[656] They're charging both, right?

[657] No, they are not.

[658] So that is the hard part is that that was hard for me. And I think all of my siblings was the fact that only my father is being charged.

[659] And not that I don't know.

[660] my mom should go to prison, but we definitely all had the sense of, like, she was clinging so hard to her idea and her, like, story that she'd made up that if it was physically taken away from her, we didn't know if she would survive it.

[661] I remember my sister telling me that, like, she challenged my mom on something, and they got into a fight, and my mom flipped out.

[662] They were in the car driving, and my mom flipped out.

[663] My mom was in the car in the passenger seat, and started, like, freaking out, rocking backwards and forwards and hitting her head off the dashboard, like to the point where my sister, Hannah, who told me that she thought I was overacting, said, Hannah, like, she told me, I almost drove back and, like, had her admitted in the, like, ward.

[664] And, like, I've had multiple conversations with all my siblings where it's, like, what is going to happen to her?

[665] She can't take care of herself.

[666] We can't take care of her.

[667] Like, we can't have her in our lives.

[668] But if our father is sent to jail, what does she do.

[669] And, you know, I even, I remember saying this to my siblings and then being like, yeah, being like, I would feel better if she was in jail because at least I know she would have like a place to sleep and like meals to eat.

[670] Like I don't know what would have.

[671] I don't know if she would end up on the streets.

[672] I don't know if she would end up hopeless.

[673] Like, and is that thing of like, I don't want anything to do with her, but I don't, I want her to be safe at the same time.

[674] Like, I don't want, I don't want bad things for her.

[675] Right.

[676] Your dad was.

[677] physically violent towards your mom.

[678] I mean, would you classify her as a victim as well?

[679] Yes, but she also attacked us.

[680] But here's the issue.

[681] And the issue is that they can't prove any of our abuse.

[682] They can only prove the recent abuse against my brother by my father.

[683] So because of that, the history of abuse we gave for my mother, they can't prove.

[684] They don't have know a ton about what that will mean for her future you know what the other options are there and i mean they were they've this whole time they're like they've been keeping up with their church and they've even had like members of their church contact my siblings and like wait your dad's still a pastor right now is that what you're telling me he okay so when i say pastor he runs his own church out of his house like but what that's how he makes money i i don't know if he's making money out of it.

[685] And I don't know if they're still doing that, but pretty much all of last year and early this year, my siblings were having issues because members of my parents' like church were contacting them.

[686] My brother was on like a gaming chat room, like on Discord.

[687] And one of the kids of my parents' friends contacted him and basically started like saying all this stuff to him about how he deserved whatever happened to him.

[688] It's because he was being a bad kid and that he needed to tell the social workers that he lied and get them to drop charges.

[689] And then we began having issues with people in that group showing up at my sister's places of work without us knowing, letting my parents know.

[690] And then, like, my parents would try to show up and catch the kids at work.

[691] Because in their minds, they weren't technically underage, so they could come talk to them.

[692] Yeah, like there was one time where my sister, Rebecca, was getting ready.

[693] She'd gotten a new job.

[694] And it was, like, after she'd moved out, my parents had, like, didn't even know what job she had.

[695] And she had to catch a bus after, and she was standing at the bus station, looked up, and my parents were standing right there.

[696] Like, the exact moment was she got off of work.

[697] And they were, like, walked across to try and come talk to her.

[698] And she, like, got out of there.

[699] But we found out someone, like, sussed out where she was and then, like, let my parents know so they could show up.

[700] Was that before the children were taken or after?

[701] Oh, no, this is after.

[702] This is the way after.

[703] Yeah.

[704] So we actually, like, it got to the point where.

[705] like, I mentioned it to police.

[706] And I think they stopped after a while.

[707] And I think my siblings, like, made it pretty clear that, like, we do not want anything to do with you people.

[708] But yeah, for a while, like, it was to the point where I was, um, pushing to get restraining orders, like, for all of us against our parents, because I didn't know what was going to happen.

[709] And I was very much aware of that fact that, like, usually, like, you were never in more danger than when you leave your abusers.

[710] And we had left.

[711] Exactly.

[712] And I felt like still, my siblings were still very much, they'd gotten out of that situation, but they hadn't truly realized, like, how bad it was.

[713] And, like, even now talking to them, they're like, now they're out of it.

[714] I can't even imagine ever going back into that.

[715] But you don't know that until you're out.

[716] So I was definitely very worried.

[717] Again, you know, after so many years of them not telling me things, was really worried that, like, stuff was happening and they weren't taking it seriously.

[718] So there was a time where I pushed for all of us to get restraining orders.

[719] But Sarah still needed to go through them for school.

[720] And my mother kept losing her exams that she needed to send in so Sarah would have to redo them.

[721] And I don't know this for sure, but I have a heavy suspicion that my mother was doing that so that she could still have access to Sarah.

[722] It got to the point where they sent, like, I think Rebecca's birthday, no, Sarah's birthday was very soon after they were taken away.

[723] And my parents had friends, like, deliver presents to the house.

[724] And, like, my father, like, wrote her letter and, like, did that whole thing where he was super sincere and like kind in ways that he had never been kind to her before and she was super conflicted and my mother actually get this so my birthday i think was in march and my mother i had blocked her and everything and my husband had also blocked her but she somehow got a hold of his number or she texted him from a different number and said like hey this is carlo and was like don't block me i just i just want your address so i can send my daughter like a birthday present like i still have faith that you know one day we're all like be reconciled and we'll have a relationship again like please don't like take the only lifeline i have away from my daughter you know i just want to give rachel a birthday present and i'm like destroyed because on one hand like it seems so sad and on the other hand i'm like bitch i'm giving you my address like what the fuck like i don't want a gift from you like how could you go through all of this and think it's so important for you to like give me a gift like one you truly are so delusional you don't understand what's happening or two like you're trying to figure out how to get a hold of me and like either are awful wow and so he was like I don't want to do I said I can't tell you what to do you know because it's your own decision but I would block her and not respond like you don't have to do anything and that's what we ended up doing but it was like even in that moment she was still trying to like send me things and it's like you have to to, like, you made your choice.

[725] You don't get to stand by the person who abused us and still get to have your mommy moments, still get to, like, be a parent and still get to have those privileges.

[726] Like, you lost that the minute you chose him over us.

[727] Sorry if it hurts.

[728] Sorry if it's sad.

[729] Like, yeah, it's fucking sad for us, too, bitch.

[730] You made your bed lying it.

[731] I'm not going to help you feel better about your shitty behavior.

[732] No, and I...

[733] So you can send me a gift and feel better about yourself.

[734] Yeah, I don't want anything to do with you.

[735] And they're, they're so delusional to the point where, like, my uncle will, like, show me messages from her where, like, you know, he's calling around.

[736] She's like, my kids are fine.

[737] They're happy.

[738] I see them in town all the time.

[739] And, like, great.

[740] Are you spying on us some more?

[741] Like, what's happening?

[742] Like, that's her response?

[743] Like, yeah.

[744] Like, there were, I mean, there were times where my siblings would be running around town because they have to, like, get stuff.

[745] And they'd be, like, in constant fear that they were going to run into, like, my parents.

[746] And sometimes they would because guess what?

[747] My parents were still out on the streets preaching.

[748] And then after, like, a lot of people knew what was going on, they started going to other towns that weren't in the area and preaching on the streets there.

[749] So it was shocking to have, I was like, okay, so the worst thing in the world has happened to your family and you are still running around and acting like nothing has happened.

[750] Like, what world do you people live in?

[751] Do you think that it's like an inability to understand or an unwillingness to understand?

[752] I think it is the only thing they know and if they fully accept the fact of what they have done like this has been their livelihood this has been like what they believe their mission was for my entire life they don't have this anymore like it's a very weird thing to have a conversation with your sibling and say I wouldn't be surprised if I woke up one day and found out that my father had killed my mother and shot himself and to have your sibling go yeah that sounds about right it was surprising to me that the thought of that was not surprising you know that's what was scary about that that seemed logical.

[753] Like this is someone who whenever anyone got close to figuring out like his dark and dirty secrets, he would abuse us to make sure that didn't happen.

[754] What are you going to do when it's in the papers and everyone knows who you are and what you've done?

[755] I don't want that to happen.

[756] But to have that thought and have it not be shocking and have it seem like a logical outcome, like that, that was shocking to me. Have you ever felt like you wanted to reach out to them?

[757] Or have you felt?

[758] I think in my brain, my family is my siblings, and they willingly remove themselves from my family.

[759] I know I don't have parents because they, it's not, they don't even exist in my brain.

[760] Like as far as like, I don't, when me and my siblings, like, all of our energy now goes into, like, building our family together.

[761] And we have actually, like, really connected.

[762] And, like, I'm closer with my siblings than I ever have been, and I think we're really building something beautiful with my siblings and my other family, and they are the ones that took themselves out of that, and they don't longer get to have that.

[763] Yeah.

[764] Sometimes being estranged from people is like starting your life for the first time, and it's actually incredibly free.

[765] And yeah, there's a whole lot of unlearning to do, but it is so beautiful.

[766] When I first was estranged from my father, I, you know, after a while, once I got over the raw pain of that, I felt like I could breathe.

[767] And when he wrote me that letter and I realized I was supposed to write him back, I felt suffocated again.

[768] And like, I was forced to like interact with this person again.

[769] And it was that realization of I don't want them in my life.

[770] I don't want to go back to that.

[771] I don't ever want to go back to that.

[772] And you realize that, like, I wasn't necessarily looking for reconciliation.

[773] 100%.

[774] And it doesn't mean that you don't have the ability to forgive people?

[775] People always talk about how I don't think our culture has a good understanding of forgiveness.

[776] And I think some of that comes from a misuse of Christianity in the Bible.

[777] People always talk about forgive and forget.

[778] Bible doesn't say forgive and forget.

[779] It says God forgives you and doesn't remember your sins.

[780] It doesn't say you have to forget.

[781] It says forgive.

[782] It doesn't say forget.

[783] Also, if I choose to work through and let go of the pain and that anger that you caused me, that is between me and whatever God slash universe I believe in.

[784] And you actually don't come into the equation at all.

[785] It has nothing to do with you.

[786] Like, you don't matter anymore.

[787] And that's, you know, part of forgiveness is not letting that person hurt you anymore.

[788] And that's about you.

[789] It's not about them.

[790] It has nothing to do with them.

[791] You're like, you're picking you.

[792] Your siblings are choosing your happiness and joy.

[793] Like, who wants to be part of that other shit.

[794] Why would you?

[795] Like, why would you ever want to go back to that when you have all this beautiful outcome?

[796] Well, and people, you know, like the opposite of love is not hatred, you know, it's apathy.

[797] And when I think when you hold hatred and bitterness, you know, part of that comes when you are so caught up in that cycle of pain and you haven't necessarily worked through it yet.

[798] And so when you get to the point where you can truly forgive, you know, in the way that it's understood where it no longer body.

[799] And, you know, you or you're able to like think about it without having that pain like that means that you no longer they are no longer of consequence to even bother you they don't meet anything anymore I just think it's so incredibly moving that you stepping into yourself and your siblings doing the same and you coming out inspired so many people to come out and share their truth to and like look what has come of it that is incredible it has been insane.

[800] And I think I always shy away from looking at things like that because it feels like, oh, it was God's plan, blah, blah, blah.

[801] And so I think I almost refused to look at it like that, but my husband will be like, just like stop.

[802] Like look, look what your decisions have done.

[803] Like, look what this path has done.

[804] Like, I know it's been hard and I see you like struggle through it, but like look at what, look at what's happened, you know.

[805] And I'm really thankful that.

[806] I have a partner who's able to do that for me when I can't do it for myself.

[807] But it is crazy to look back and to take those steps to distance myself from, you know, what I thought was right and to feel conflicted about it and to feel like, am I making things worse or am I a bad person?

[808] And then to like look back now and realize that like none of this would have happened without that.

[809] And to feel for so long after feeling like a toxic person and feeling like no matter what I did, I would hurt those around me to realize that like stuff that I chose to do.

[810] to accept myself, like, actually ended up helping people.

[811] It's such a reversal of how I used to think about myself.

[812] I mean, the more people talk about their stories, the more people feel free.

[813] Like, that's the biggest thing I feel like I've learned on this.

[814] Like, I talked about being by, and then people are like, oh, I can probably talk to you about this, which then, you know, led to us talking about my parents, just then led to us discovering that they had done some horrible, things which then led to us actually telling the police about it, which led to one, my siblings getting rescued into this lovely woman not feeling like, you know, it was her fault that this horrific thing happened to her.

[815] Yeah, I think sometimes people find it hard to think about and look up and to look at the dark places in life.

[816] But from what I've seen, whenever someone does that, someone else feels like they're not as weird or they're not as alone.

[817] And so then they feel more comfortable telling what happened to them.

[818] And then someone else feels more comfortable about telling what happened to them.

[819] Like growing up, I was always told, well, the truth will set you free.

[820] And I was like, oh my God.

[821] And it was very much like, well, Jesus is the truth.

[822] And that's what that means.

[823] Because I get older now.

[824] And I'm like, you know, that rings very true for me in a very, you know, different non -religious way now.

[825] But like, yeah, I told the truth.

[826] And someone else told their truth.

[827] and someone else told their truth.

[828] And it set me free from a lifetime of second guessing myself and of abuse and of taking responsibility for pain that wasn't mine.

[829] That's incredibly poetic.

[830] Thank you so much for doing this and being on the podcast.

[831] I can't, it's wild because you and I started talking and life's been so nuts.

[832] But like the stuff happening with your parents and stuff, I remember we like originally connected.

[833] I'm like, yeah, yeah, I definitely want to talk to you.

[834] Like, I definitely want to talk to you.

[835] And then you're like, oh, update.

[836] Like, my parents are in jail.

[837] I was like, I always think things with each story that's been on the podcast.

[838] Like, the timing is always, like, somehow it's exactly what I, like, need to hear in that moment.

[839] And, like, hearing you speak has just been, like, so incredibly healing for me in so many ways.

[840] And, like, it makes me really, like, feel like I could share my story one day.

[841] because when it's childhood trauma and it's like your whole life like how do you explain how somebody hurt you for your whole life how do you get like how do you summer like how where to begin like what do I even remember like first of all you know but like hearing so many of the things that you described is just like yeah I fucking feel that on a spiritual level what you just said like and we could not grow up in more different environments in terms of of the vibe and aesthetic, but like and like the belief system and stuff, but it's like none of that really actually matters because the abuse is so linear.

[842] Yeah.

[843] It wasn't the belief system.

[844] It was the abusive people who always use whatever they can to control people.

[845] Yeah.

[846] And even just like the little things like you know, our kids just want us to show up and fucking be proud of them.

[847] And when they give a speech, just say you did fucking awesome.

[848] You are amazing.

[849] Like, you did incredible.

[850] Like, save your critique.

[851] Children need to be appreciated.

[852] And I think we as adults sometimes forget in our shuffle that, like, these are tiny human beings with all of the same feelings that we have.

[853] They don't deserve any less than we do.

[854] They don't deserve to feel afraid.

[855] They don't deserve to feel overpowered.

[856] They don't deserve to feel like shit.

[857] You know?

[858] And, yeah.

[859] Yeah, it's just been incredible to hear you speak and to hear the things that you shared.

[860] And I also just think it's like really super cool to have you speak about not only your coming out story, but also like learning about your autism diagnosis and how your brain processes things and how your experience was because I've learned so much through that as well.

[861] And I think it will help me actually be a better mom to my kids.

[862] Oh, my God.

[863] Like, I'm really not trying to make you cry right now, but like that is legitimately how I feel like every time we've spoken, I've talked to my husband afterwards and I'm like, I don't even know how to describe to you how like on a religious level in the most ironic way, this has been so healing and helpful for me. I told my therapist I was doing this and he literally said like, because I originally would have had to go back to testify again.

[864] my father but they decided they didn't want to pay for me to go to Scotland to do that and my therapist was like you know I thought it would have been really good for you to do that and I said well I'm doing this podcast and he like I told him what was happening he said like I think this is going to be like a massive part of your healing journey like you actually like he's like this is you like getting to testify in a sense like getting to stand up and tell the world exactly what happened and it's been so true like this has been so cathartic and healing for me there's almost stress around the story because you're trying to convey to people like what happened and one story leads to another story and it's like it's really hard for people to process and they're like wait yeah you just realized that you're autistic and then you realize that you're by but wait you were abused and wait your parents are like arrested and like it's there's so much and you feel like you're never getting to like fully like tell your story you're never for me I think I always have stress around people not being able to fully like get people to understand what I mean never being like able to find the correct words and there's always just a sense of like I can't say what I mean and people don't actually like I'm saying what makes sense in my brain but people don't seem to be understanding it or I can't get it all out for them to understand like what actually happened and to actually be able to go like year by year an event after event and like be able to like deconstruct it even like listening back and hearing myself talk about it and it making sense as being like so healing and like my family members reached out and being like hearing this just helps me understand so much of what you went through like this is like thank you for doing this like them being able to benefit from that and like having them like say that to you and like we get it and like we finally understand after all these years is like oh you deserve to have justice and you deserve to have healing and validation and I'm just like so thankful to you and definitely you'll have to keep me updated as things develop with your parents or with your dad and his trial and I'm just like I hope he'll be held accountable me too well part of me is like sad that we're at the end because I'm like I love talking to you I like you a lot and I like you I feel like you're someone I've known for you like I don't know just like the way I can talk to you is like so we're on the same level I almost feel like you know like yes I feel like I feel like I feel like a kindred spirit.

[865] It's weird too because I just listened to my gut and I just had something in my gut when you reached out to me that I was just like, I don't know, there was just something there.

[866] Like, it's pretty beautiful.

[867] Thank you again for doing this.

[868] I just can't say thank you enough.

[869] And I hope one day we meet in person.

[870] Me too.

[871] I'm like sad.

[872] I'm like, well, I guess if you just want to call me sometime and be convinced about whatever.

[873] Whatever.

[874] You think you know me. Something Was Wrong is produced and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese.

[875] Music on this episode from Gladrags, check out their album, Wonder Under.

[876] If you'd like to help support the growth of Something Was Wrong, you can help by leaving a positive review, sharing the podcast with your family, friends, and followers, and support at patreon .com slash something was wrong.

[877] Something was wrong now has a free virtual survivor support forum at something was wrong.

[878] You can remain as anonymous as you need.

[879] Thank you so much for listening.

[880] If you like something was wrong, you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

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[883] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[884] She had been under the influence and she left him there.

[885] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[886] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[887] What happens next?

[888] Depends on who you ask.

[889] Was it a crime of passion?

[890] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[891] This was clearly an intentional act.

[892] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[893] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[894] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[895] Everyone had an opinion.

[896] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[897] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation.

[898] of just how complicated this case is.

[899] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[900] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery Plus.

[901] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.