#2129 - David Holthouse

[0] Joe Rogan podcast, checking out.

[1] The Joe Rogan Experience.

[2] Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

[3] How are you, man?

[4] Good to see you again.

[5] Good.

[6] Thanks for having you back, man. My pleasure.

[7] You made another awesome one, man. This, uh, the Krishna's one.

[8] Oh, my God.

[9] whew there is something about these cult documentaries right this just right who that one's heavy do you remember the harry christian devotees in the airports because you're like me like you're old enough of that generation that you might remember the white robe like they'd have the flowers and they'd be selling books and shit in the airports i don't remember know if i remember them at the airports i remember them in some places i definitely have seen them you know Yeah, but I just always thought they were just cooks.

[10] You know, it's interesting, you know, knowing what I know now about the 60s and, you know, what was done to sort of.

[11] to kind of crush the hippie movement.

[12] Right.

[13] You know, it's interesting to see that this was connected to, you know, the Beatles and peace and love, and then you see this sect that this, what was his name again?

[14] Kyrton Ananda was the guru that went way wrong.

[15] Yeah, went way wrong.

[16] Yeah.

[17] But it is, well, let's just get into from the beginning.

[18] How did you get involved in this particular subject?

[19] So there's a production company Marwar Junction, and they had actually sold this show to Peacock, and they were looking for a director.

[20] So this is the first show that I've made or helped to make that I haven't been involved in the sort of conception of the story from the jump.

[21] So they had developed the story and sold it to Peacock, and they were shopping for a director, and they liked my work, and so they hired me to make it.

[22] And so did you have any experience with the Christians before this?

[23] No, no. And I had a lot, you know, like a lot of people had a lot of misconceptions about them.

[24] Like I thought that there was a, that the Hari Krishna movement was invented in America in the 1960s.

[25] I just had it associated with the sort of the hippie movement, you know, and that's not the.

[26] That's not the truth of it at all.

[27] It's like actually a spiritual tradition that, you know, dates back thousands of years, like far predates Christianity.

[28] It's based in these ancient spiritual texts called the Vedas.

[29] You know, the written version is like at least 3 ,500 years old.

[30] And the oral tradition goes back thousands of years beyond that.

[31] So I learned a lot about...

[32] you know, the Krishna consciousness in the making of this.

[33] And this shows about a particularly dark chapter in the history of the movement in the 70s and 80s that I don't think is a representative of the movement like today.

[34] Like I think it's a force for good in the world today, actually.

[35] Yeah, I think the principles behind it, if you pay attention to the main guru, what was the older German?

[36] Probopod.

[37] Probopod.

[38] Yeah.

[39] My friend Duncan loves that guy.

[40] And what the whole concept behind it sounds beautiful.

[41] You know, it's all just love and, you know.

[42] relinquishing your possessions and the hold that they have on you and just living this very peaceful loving life and not just forgiving your enemies but letting them into your home and all that sounds great but all it takes is one psycho Yeah, one psycho.

[43] Well, Prabapati took a risk.

[44] I mean, so Prabapad was a guru.

[45] So several gurus, Krishna Consciousness gurus, had come over from India to the UK or to the U .S., you know, in the 1800s even and then through the first half of the 20th century and had no luck because their timing wasn't right or they weren't the right person or both.

[46] But Prabupad was the right dude at the right time.

[47] He showed up in Greenwich Village, New York City, in 1965, and started preaching Christian consciousness.

[48] And it's just like, you know, took off like wildfire.

[49] And, you know, like Alan Ginsberg got down with it.

[50] It wasn't maybe a full -scale devotee, but like he was hanging out with him.

[51] And but Prabapad was already an old dude when he showed up in the U .S. And so in 1977, he died.

[52] So it's 12 years.

[53] And by that time, Christian consciousness, there were like Krishna temples all over the country and in the U .K. because George Harrison had converted.

[54] Right?

[55] That was one of his, like, strokes of brilliance Prabhapad.

[56] So he like sent a group of devotees to go camp out outside the Apple Records office.

[57] and just like chant and dance until they basically got a meeting with the Beatles.

[58] And he was literally like, let's see if we can make the Beatles, you know, Christians.

[59] And with Harrison, it took, you know, and that song, My Sweet Lord.

[60] I mean, that's what it's about.

[61] That's about Christian consciousness.

[62] Yeah.

[63] So, but when Prabupad died in 1977, you know, he hadn't had a lot of time to build up successors.

[64] And most of the leaders of the movement were young, or most of the members of the movement were young.

[65] So he took a risk, and I don't think he had a choice.

[66] And he appointed 11 of his closest, longest time devotees, all men, to be the gurus that would carry the movement forward.

[67] And while you could say that it worked and that Christian consciousness is still around, it's bigger than ever, A few of those, these are dudes, these are like dudes in their 20s, okay, that suddenly are being worshipped as direct conduits to the divine.

[68] In other words, treated it as gods on earth.

[69] Yeah.

[70] And some of them were not spiritually prepared for that.

[71] Yeah.

[72] It would be a kind way to put it.

[73] And some of them went wrong, and one of them in particular, Kirtin Ananda, whose, you know, government name was Keith Ham, went really wrong.

[74] I like the term government name.

[75] Yeah.

[76] Well, that is a thing that they always do, right?

[77] They give them spiritual names.

[78] Yeah, you relinquish your original existence.

[79] Yeah, and take a Christian name.

[80] There's a place out here, you know, I built a comedy club, and before I got the spot that I have now on 6th Street, I bought a place called the One World Theater.

[81] And the One World Theater was owned by a cult.

[82] And I, it's a beautiful theater and I had heard about it from my friend Ron White because we would, I was telling them, you know, I think we should open up a comedy club.

[83] And he said, you should buy that theater.

[84] It was owned by a cult.

[85] And I was like, that would be hilarious by a theater that was owned by a cult.

[86] And there's a documentary on them called Holy Hell.

[87] Okay.

[88] And it's the same sort of deal.

[89] Yeah, I know that.

[90] I know that, Doc.

[91] Yeah.

[92] So they start off, it seems wonderful in the beginning.

[93] Everyone's doing yoga.

[94] They're hanging out together, cooking meals together, and dancing.

[95] And like, it seems like all cults.

[96] It goes sideways.

[97] Yeah.

[98] In the beginning, it looks like a wonderful idea.

[99] Like, society sucks.

[100] The way, you know, the modern world, the way it's set up, materialism.

[101] It's all foolish and spiritually vacant.

[102] There's a way to do this and the way to live and this is the way.

[103] And everybody joins.

[104] And then Waco comes along and the cult awareness network starts investigating this guy.

[105] And so he changes his name for the third time.

[106] His name is Jaime Gomez.

[107] He was a gay porn star and a hypnotist.

[108] Right.

[109] So he led a rich life.

[110] Yeah, so he was already on a certain path.

[111] And then starts this play.

[112] He changed his name again.

[113] And he changed his name to like, I forget there's two different names.

[114] One was Michelle and I forget what the other one was.

[115] So he changed his name again, moves to Austin and starts this cult and has his followers build him this theater so he can dance in front of them.

[116] And that was the place that I bought.

[117] But it was all fucked up, and we wound up getting out of the deal.

[118] And because there was, like, a lot of problems and a lot of issues that had to be resolved with the property.

[119] And they didn't disclose that.

[120] So I got out of it and then got this place on 6th Street.

[121] But I...

[122] You know, in the process, I really started investigating the cult.

[123] And I didn't investigate it, unfortunately, before I signed contracts.

[124] And I had gotten a call from my friend Adam, like, hey, man, did you watch the documentary on the cult?

[125] I was like, oh, no. Whatever it's a documentary and a cult, it's generally a cult that went bad.

[126] Right.

[127] And this one went bad.

[128] But it was the same sort of deal.

[129] They all got names.

[130] They were all given, you know, spiritual names.

[131] And they were told that you're reborn.

[132] Yeah.

[133] Reborn in this new persona.

[134] Well, even in the 60s and the 70s, I don't think it would be fair to call Krishna consciousness a cult.

[135] But the way that this – so this guy, Kyritsynana, one of the 11 – you know, disciples that Prabupad appointed to carry on the movement.

[136] He already had a commune up in the hills of West Virginia that's still there.

[137] That's called New Vrindavan, because the city of Rindavan in India is the sort of mythical birthplace.

[138] That, that compound is still there?

[139] Still there, yeah.

[140] But it's not a cult.

[141] It's not a cult.

[142] And it's like, right?

[143] And I've been there twice.

[144] And like today, again, it's like, it's a really like positive...

[145] place with a great spiritual vibe.

[146] But when Kyrtonana was in charge, in the 70s and 80s, like some really dark shit went on down.

[147] How did they turn it around?

[148] Well, finally, like, his followers turned on him.

[149] You know, and ISCON, which is the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, which is sort of the formal name for the Hari Krishna's, what we call the Hari Krishna's.

[150] They actually, like, you know, kicked the new Vindavana out of the movement for a few years, half a decade or so, and then, like, kind of gradually brought that compound, that commune, it's not compound, that commune back in.

[151] But they have this fucking temple there, the palace of gold, like Prabupad's palace of gold, that they were originally building for Prabupad to live in.

[152] But then he died before it was completed.

[153] But it's like this, it's like this Taj Mahal -esque structure that's in the, yeah, yeah.

[154] That's in the, that's in the, that's in the middle of nowhere in the, in the hills of West Virginia.

[155] I mean, there's just, you know, it's like a couple hours from Pittsburgh, basically, and up in the mountains.

[156] And so, God, that's beautiful.

[157] Look at the images.

[158] And these are like untrained, you know, disciples.

[159] making this just based on like ancient texts that they studied carefully.

[160] So they just figured out how to do all this artisanship?

[161] Yeah.

[162] That's amazing.

[163] Yeah.

[164] It really is.

[165] It's worth visiting for sure.

[166] It's a it's mind blowing.

[167] I like there's a big box of cash.

[168] And so, yeah.

[169] And so, but this place, I mean, even now it's like it's, well, for sure in the 60s, for sure in the 70s, it was cut off from the rest of the world.

[170] I mean, these young kids would join the Harry Christian movement.

[171] And basically a lot of the fuck -ups in the movement would get sent to Kirtin Ananda at Nuvraindavan because he'd put him to work, building the temple, right?

[172] So if you like joined and you were like, you know, not fitting in for some reason, a lot of times they'd buy you a one -way bus ticket to like Morgantown or Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and you'd wind up up there, you know, in the hills under Kirtananda's tutelage, right?

[173] Which is, and it went sideways in a hurry, especially after Prabapod died.

[174] He was already running New Vrindavan, like Prabapad had visited it and approved of it.

[175] And actually Kirtana had gotten booted out of the Krishna movement because he kind of tried to take it over.

[176] Yeah.

[177] And at a certain point, like Prabupad, you know, kicked him out.

[178] And Keith Ham, Kirtin Ananda, like, mind -fucked this local sort of like philosopher dude that owned the land into signing it over, promising to be like a non -denominational spiritual movement.

[179] That's what he was doing.

[180] And as the guy put it, we interviewed his daughter.

[181] And you said, you know, as soon as the lease was signed, they put on bed sheets and started chanting, right?

[182] And so now you've got the Harry Krishna as your neighbors.

[183] Right.

[184] Yeah.

[185] Yeah.

[186] The documentary is really well done.

[187] Thanks.

[188] It's like, just like Sasquatch.

[189] I mean, you do some awesome stuff.

[190] But it's so fascinating to watch these alternative sort of movements.

[191] Yeah.

[192] get co -opted and how that can happen by the wrong sort of charismatic psycho.

[193] Right.

[194] And that's this...

[195] How do he say his name?

[196] Kirtenandan.

[197] Kirtan.

[198] Kirtananda.

[199] Yeah.

[200] Kirtanondan.

[201] Kirtananda.

[202] It's tricky, man. Dealing with all these Christian names and making this documentary, it was like, you know...

[203] How much research did you have to do about the movement and getting into it?

[204] Quite a bit.

[205] Before you sit down and start doing interviews with devotees, you want to know at least a little bit about what you're talking about.

[206] And I went to, we filmed in Vrndavana in India.

[207] That's how the project, that's how I started the project.

[208] Like I signed on to the director gig and like two weeks later I was in India.

[209] What was that like?

[210] Hey, Jamie, can we get the coffee in here?

[211] Well, one thing about Vrndav in India is the fucking monkeys, okay?

[212] There are these monkeys that will steal your shit.

[213] And it's a whole racket, right?

[214] You have to give them something back.

[215] Yeah, and of course, we're like knocking around with bags full of lenses and camera gear and audio gear and stuff.

[216] And so we're a target rich, you know, posse for these monkeys.

[217] But they'll get your sunglasses, your phone, whatever, if you're not careful.

[218] And then they like, sort of skitter up a drain pipe or a tree, and you got to buy these, like, frozen mango packs from the street vendors and, like, throw them up to the monkeys, and the monkeys will drop your shit back down to you.

[219] I'm convinced that the street vendors are in on it, right?

[220] They probably are, thank you.

[221] Yeah.

[222] So.

[223] They probably are.

[224] Yeah.

[225] Well, at the very least, it's so strange that the monkeys know that you can barter.

[226] Yeah, they learned.

[227] Yeah, that you can make a deal.

[228] Yeah.

[229] The legend is that hundreds of years ago, this guy that was like, he brought a circus to Rindavan and the monkeys came with him and they were trained to be pickpockets.

[230] And then they just kind of stayed behind.

[231] But I don't know if that's true or not.

[232] But that's the local legend.

[233] But there's hundreds of them, thousands of them, man. I mean, they are everywhere.

[234] And you've got to watch.

[235] You've got to be constantly having your head on a swivel because they are so quick.

[236] And what do they live off of?

[237] Do they just live off of what the people give them?

[238] I don't know.

[239] They probably scavenged, but also, like, they do get a lot of, like, you know, mango treats from Stanley's shit.

[240] Because Balaram Mandir, which is like the head, Hari Krishna Temple, is in Vrindhav in India.

[241] And so devotees from all over the world go there, like, as spiritual tourists, basically.

[242] And so, you know, monkeys still shit from them or any other, you know, there's a lot of Krishna devotees from all over India, too, that aren't necessarily, quote unquote, Hari Krishna's, but like follow the Hindu deity Krishna.

[243] So they come to, it's like a, you know, there's a lot of spiritual pilgrims to this city, all right?

[244] There's a lot of spiritual tourism there.

[245] And so the monkeys have a lot of targets.

[246] And so when they steal your stuff, you have to throw it to them?

[247] You got to buy something and then throw it up to them.

[248] And then they will relinquish it.

[249] Sometimes they'll be like, nope, nope, that's a cell phone.

[250] That's a three mango pack deal, dude.

[251] You got to, they won't, you know, they'll be like, oh, thanks.

[252] And they'll go like they're going to drop it too.

[253] They'll be like, oh, how about I drop it in the sewer?

[254] Oh, you don't want that?

[255] Mango pack.

[256] So they point to the mangoes?

[257] Yes.

[258] Yes.

[259] So eventually you throw them enough treats and they're like, and they're these kids too that if they see that a monkey has stolen something, they'll come over and they'll be like for a few, basically it's like for a few rupees, I'll handle this deal for you.

[260] And then they climb up the tree or the drain pipe and they do a direct hand -to -hand exchange.

[261] Wow.

[262] So we learn the hard way that's the thing to do.

[263] If the monkey steals the whatever, hire the kid, He goes and brokers the deal with the mango juice guy, you know, and makes it all happen for you.

[264] So do other monkeys realize this is happening and try to steal the mangoes before you give it to them?

[265] Oh, yeah, it's brutal.

[266] But they also cooperate, too.

[267] They'll run, like, you know, distraction operations.

[268] Like one monkey will come at you from an angle and kind of like bluff charge.

[269] And then you're paying attention to that one, and then boom, the other one, like, grabs your sunglasses off your head.

[270] Wow.

[271] Yeah, yeah.

[272] But we were there to film.

[273] There's this ceremony, these two brothers whose father, his name was Chakadari, his Christian name, his government name was Charles St. Dennis.

[274] He's known as Chaka in the movement.

[275] And his sons were doing this really ancient ritual to sort of release the soul of someone who's been murdered.

[276] And so they had their father's ashes, which he was murdered, you know, decades ago at New Vrindavan by on orders from Kirtan Ananda because he was challenging Kirtananda's authority.

[277] So Kyrton Ananda had people murdered too, more than one?

[278] Yeah.

[279] I think there's probably quite a few bodies up in the hills.

[280] People just don't know about it?

[281] Yeah, yeah.

[282] Wow.

[283] Yeah, one of the principal sources for the documentary is a guy's retired homicide cop named Thomas Westfall, who was a local, just a local cop.

[284] in West Virginia when the Christian set up shop at the New Rindavan commune.

[285] And so he started keeping a close eye on him early and sort of saw Kyrtonanda's rise to power.

[286] And, you know, he believes that there's at least a handful more victims up there whose bodies haven't been found.

[287] Because it's really remote country.

[288] I mean, I don't want to stress that.

[289] It's really cold in the winter.

[290] There's a lot of snow.

[291] You know, to this day, it's sort of, it's a difficult place to get to.

[292] And so this guy, when he first started running this temple, this area, when did it go, how long did it take for went sideways?

[293] Well, I think it was, the question with Kirtananda or Keith Ham is always like, was he bent before, you know, he became a Krishna?

[294] Or was it like, did the power get to him?

[295] And I think it's both.

[296] You know, I think he had a psychological disposition towards being a despot, if you will.

[297] And then once Prabupad was gone, and he was, and Kirtananda, along with ten of his compatriots, was appointed a guru, you know, and had that sort of power.

[298] I think at that point, it's...

[299] And combined with, like, all the money.

[300] I mean, he was...

[301] He was, he had this guy that was a, he was, Kirtanaana was a genius at running schemes and scams to make money.

[302] He would dispatch like the hottest young female Krishna devotees to like stock car races and rock concerts and stuff to like raise money for whatever.

[303] They just make it up, the starving children of India or they just make up charities.

[304] And they'd flirt with dudes, you know, especially at rock concerts, guys that are like, high.

[305] and get them to give them cash, a dollar here, five bucks here, ten bucks there.

[306] They work at airports too, but, um, and they just brought in literally like garbage bags full of cash, you know, every week.

[307] Wow.

[308] And they, and he trained them to, to deposit it in nine thousand.

[309] $900 increments so it doesn't show up to avoid the reporting right yeah yeah wow so he was he looks crazy that's what's interesting isn't it interesting that like crazy people look crazy and i always i always try to say okay is this because you know he's crazy or do you see something it's hard to tell but he doesn't seem enlightened.

[310] You look at him.

[311] He looks like a guy who's a little unhinged.

[312] And I've met people like that, unhinged.

[313] And I've met people like that in like the psychedelics movement.

[314] And there's a few of these movements that are so open.

[315] And basically anybody can become a part of it.

[316] You know, the concept behind it is, you know, we're all seeking enlightenment.

[317] We're all, but then you'll see someone who gets in there and you're like, what is, this guy's a schizophrenic or something.

[318] Right.

[319] There's something going on here.

[320] Especially you look at photos of Kyrton and Andanda over the decades.

[321] Like he just gets more and more and more demented looking.

[322] Right.

[323] And that has to probably be the power, right?

[324] Yeah.

[325] They're washing his feet and worship.

[326] Yeah, he was molesting.

[327] kids there you know yeah he was he was a total pedophile right do you think that started that he was always a pedophile i think pedophiles are always pedophiles you know but again once he had like access to as as the movement went on yeah more and more christina couples had kids so he had access to more and more and more children up there you know in those hills Right, and that was one of the things that you highlight is that it wasn't just about releasing the possessions.

[328] It was also like not having your children, not having control of your children either.

[329] Yeah, yeah.

[330] Although I think they, especially at Newverindavan, at the place that Kirtinanda ran, They kind of took that belief, you know, that, yes, children are a material attachment, right?

[331] But he took it to an extreme and just basically just cut off, you know, kids from their parents, like entirely.

[332] And that was not unique to Nouvendava, and that happened...

[333] in a lot of temples around the country in the U .S. But - And the pedophilia happened in these temples as well?

[334] But I will say, again, to Iscon's credit, that unlike the Catholic Church, once the evidence started to emerge, that there had been, I think it's fair to say, systemic, you know, raping of kids at their religious facilities, they addressed the issue head on.

[335] And for the most part, I think have done an excellent job of...

[336] you know, weeding out the pedos.

[337] And what happened to the kids?

[338] Because it's not just that it seems like it wasn't isolated.

[339] It was all the kids.

[340] At New Vindavana.

[341] Yeah.

[342] I mean, this is what you're kind of...

[343] Mostly boys, I think.

[344] Mostly boys.

[345] Yeah.

[346] Yeah.

[347] They are, they have communities online and there's a lot of, there's a lot of bitterness.

[348] You know, it varies.

[349] It varies.

[350] You can't totally generalize.

[351] But, you know, the kids that grew up in New Vindavana, you know, they have online communities where there's a lot of, like, for obvious reasons, like resentment and bitterness and anger, still at the leadership of the Hari Krishna movement for not, in their opinion, you know, fully atoning for the sins that occurred there.

[352] Wow, what could they do?

[353] Right.

[354] Well, there was a settlement.

[355] There were some lawsuits or some settlements, but, I mean, you know, money only...

[356] That doesn't fix anything.

[357] No, no, no. It doesn't fix anything.

[358] It acknowledges that something happened, but you're ruining a child for life.

[359] Yeah.

[360] Yeah.

[361] And you're doing it in the most evil way, because you're supposed to be a part of this peace and love movement that's like the optimal way to live life.

[362] Right.

[363] Yeah.

[364] Yeah.

[365] Well, and that's why this guy, Charles St. Dennis, Chaka, was murdered.

[366] He was calling out Kirtananda for his hypocrisy.

[367] Now, I don't know if he called him out for the, you know, raping kids, but, like...

[368] Kyrton and Ando was having, like, gay sexual relationships with some laborers that had been hired to come help build the temple that weren't necessarily devotees.

[369] And it was like an open secret, you know, in the commune.

[370] And he called him out for it and also called him out for the materialism, for like driving around in a limousine, for having like, you know, they would buy him a new, you know, fancy SUV every year or whatever.

[371] You know, and Charles St. Dennis called him all in his bullshit publicly.

[372] And that's what got him killed.

[373] Wow.

[374] Yeah.

[375] Fuck, man. It's, I know quite a few people that grew up in cults.

[376] You know, in stand -up comedy, you deal with a lot of, like, lost people, like, wayward folks that just didn't fit in anywhere in society.

[377] And a couple of my friends, one of my good friends grew up a Jehovah's Witness.

[378] Right.

[379] And, you know, it's just you, you live in this world that is this very strange sort of, I mean, it just doesn't make any sense.

[380] It's illogical.

[381] It's crazy.

[382] It doesn't fit it.

[383] And once you start questioning things, you find, like, you're not allowed to.

[384] And it's...

[385] It's just very bizarre how many of these.

[386] I was having a conversation with Mark Andreessen, you know, the venture capitalist guy.

[387] And he was like, California still has a lot of active cults right now.

[388] I was like, really?

[389] He goes, oh, yeah, there's a lot.

[390] So like there's ones you don't hear about where they kind of keep it together.

[391] Right.

[392] So I guess there's like cults have to go completely like holy hell sideways before you get a documentary.

[393] Right.

[394] So some of them they figure out how to kind of keep everybody together.

[395] It's probably harder to keep shit under wraps these days than it was for Kyrton Ananda in the 70s and the 80s.

[396] With the internet.

[397] Yeah.

[398] For sure.

[399] Everybody's got a phone.

[400] Yeah.

[401] It's also like people are much more aware of what a cult is now.

[402] I bet in the 1960s it just seemed like a beautiful alternative to...

[403] You know, I mean, you're dealing with the civil rights movement, Jim Crow, anti -war movement, Vietnam is happening.

[404] You've got Richard Nixon's the president.

[405] There's all this chaos.

[406] People don't want the world that's in front of them right now, and they're searching for some alternative.

[407] Then it comes along.

[408] What about love?

[409] What about this?

[410] Yeah, that's what I want.

[411] Right.

[412] And then the next thing you know, you're wrapped up in this thing.

[413] Yeah.

[414] You know, talking about the pedophilia stuff, I'm going to take this on a detour because there's something I wanted to say last time I was on your show, which is that I am convinced that you saved at least one kid's life was something that you said the last time I was on, which is that we were talking about my own experiences as a survivor of childhood sexual assault.

[415] And you told a story about how when you were a kid, you were in a library, and this, like, sick, fuck, pedophile guy, like, was trying to get you out of a library.

[416] Yeah.

[417] And a librarian stepped in and basically saved you from this guy.

[418] Do I have that correct?

[419] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[420] Okay.

[421] The reason that I think you saved at least one kid's life is this, because, and again, speaking from first -hand experience, as a male survivor, especially of childhood sexual assault, you think, like, how could I have let that happen to me?

[422] Why didn't I defend myself?

[423] Why didn't I fight the guy off?

[424] You know, even though intellectually you look at a seven, eight, nine year old boy, you're like, you got no chance against a grown man. Right.

[425] But for, you know, Joe Rogan to say like a librarian save me from this happening to me, right?

[426] Yeah.

[427] Because you're a tough guy, okay?

[428] You're perceived as a tough guy.

[429] I think rightly so.

[430] Now.

[431] now right now seven or eight or however right right right but but but I I hope I'm articulating my point which is that you know guys yeah yeah yeah and and and for a guy that's like suffering that and thinking like why didn't you know it just helps when when somebody in a position like yourself you know says like hey you know it could have happened to me easily it almost did I mean, I was on my way out the door.

[432] Right.

[433] Yeah, it could have, if that librarian hadn't called out my name, I think about that all the time.

[434] You know, what would have happened to me?

[435] How, who I would have become, you know.

[436] It's one of the darkest forces in the world.

[437] Like this, and I don't understand why it's so prevalent.

[438] And I think, you know, I've equated it to vampires that it seems like, One of the things that happens to some of the people that get molested is they wind up doing it to others.

[439] Yeah.

[440] And that is a harsh truth.

[441] I mean, I try and do what I can to dispel the stereotype because, you know, that was one of the things that, you know, scared the shit out of me. when I was a teenager is the idea that I was going to become a pedophile myself.

[442] Right.

[443] Right.

[444] But yeah, it's unfortunate.

[445] So, you know, it's that hurt people, hurt people, cliche, right?

[446] Yeah.

[447] But there's truth behind it.

[448] It is with violence.

[449] It is with everything.

[450] With something when something happened.

[451] Pedophilia, which let's just call it what it is, raping kids is just an incredibly destructive force in our culture and in all cultures.

[452] And I just like it's the one kind of criminal I think that I just have absolutely no sympathy for No or do I none No most people feel the same way I mean when you talk about like One of my daughters is very much against the death penalty and I think for a good reason and because we've had conversations about people that are unjustly accused and she knows that I've had many people on my podcast that spent a long time in jail and for crimes that they didn't commit.

[453] And some of them were on death row.

[454] And they could have been executed.

[455] And we were talking about it.

[456] We said in a perfect scenario, when you absolutely know that the law has got the right person.

[457] and that this person has done something, and then they have killed people, whether it's a serial killer or whatever it is.

[458] Yeah, maybe the death penalty makes sense.

[459] But we don't have a perfect legal system.

[460] Right.

[461] But, and then the subject of child molesters came up and they were like, oh, no, kill them all.

[462] Everybody's, you know, it's almost like.

[463] It's an instinctual reaction.

[464] Yeah.

[465] It's an, especially my wife, mothers, you know, they hear that and it's just like, that's the one.

[466] Like, you have to kill them.

[467] Because they never fucking stop.

[468] No, they don't.

[469] They never stop.

[470] It's a weird sickness.

[471] It's a, it's just so strange that it's not a very, very rare uncommon thing, you know, that like exists like in a handful of places in the world occasionally.

[472] Yeah.

[473] But then when you hear about something like the Catholic Church.

[474] You know, there was Pope Benedict when he got kicked out.

[475] There was a lot of people that didn't understand what was going on.

[476] And I was looking into it.

[477] And you find out what that guy did.

[478] And one of the things that he did that's so evil is he would move people.

[479] So he would take a priest that was molesting kids and just move him to another unsuspecting place.

[480] And he went on to molest, one of these guys that they caught went on to molest 100 deaf kids, at least 100 that they're aware of.

[481] And just go, like, and he knew that this guy was a pedophile.

[482] And it's just, the Catholic Church in particular is just like, I went to Catholic school and nothing happened to me, but things did happen to people that I know that did go to Catholic school.

[483] And it's just like, is there another religion that is more connected?

[484] Like when you hear the term Catholic priest, pedophile is right.

[485] Like if you were playing a game like Catholic priest, pedophile, you know, like you would say that, you know, if you're, what is that, charades?

[486] What's that game?

[487] When you know, like, you say, you know, tough, big, runs fast, football player, yes.

[488] You know, like, you'd say a Catholic priest, pedophile.

[489] You know what I'm saying?

[490] Right, right.

[491] And it was an open secret for so long, too.

[492] Yeah, it's crazy.

[493] I think a lot of the priests were probably drawn to the church for the access to kids.

[494] I mean, Kyrton and Nanda and Nuvraindavan built himself a little pedophile heaven up there, you know, once he had the power.

[495] So how did they, did you talk to anybody from there that kind of reformed that place?

[496] Like how did they, once they got rid of him?

[497] Well, first of all, he finally went to prison for murder, for, you know, murder for hire, basically, along with racketeering and like, he was selling like counterfeit, you know, football hats and shit.

[498] Is he still in jail?

[499] No, he's dead.

[500] He's dead.

[501] But he still has, like, within, not within Iscon, but within the larger sort of Krishna consciousness movement, he still has, he still has a falling.

[502] And I went to his tomb that's in Vrndavana, India.

[503] And I had, you know, like a translator kind of fixer with me, and I had one camera guy.

[504] And we sort of bullshit our way in.

[505] And it was this creepy fucking place, man. It was like this, these sort of like...

[506] almost Soviet block looking apartment.

[507] It was all half finished.

[508] Like there was his tomb and there were flowers and incense and photos of him and stuff.

[509] And it's basically after he got out of prison eventually as an old man. And he went to India and Pakistan and like drew a following of like Pakistani and boys basically that are now men in their 20s and 30s.

[510] And they occupy this sort of compound around his tomb.

[511] And the one that we sort of bullshared away past was starting to get, like, a little suspicious of what we were doing and of our story, which is like that we were just tourists, basically, that had sort of wondered by this place and were interested by it.

[512] And all these dudes just started coming out of these...

[513] They looked like vacant buildings, but they clearly weren't.

[514] You know, all these, like, follows are Kirtendana.

[515] And the translator's like, it's time to go now.

[516] Time to go now.

[517] Time to go now.

[518] And so, you know, we buggyed out of there.

[519] Wow.

[520] Yeah.

[521] But he still has, like, followers.

[522] And frankly, even within ISCON, he still has sort of quiet supporters.

[523] Jesus.

[524] Yeah.

[525] Yeah, in Holy Hell, they talk about this guy that they kicked out.

[526] He's still on the loose.

[527] And they flew him to Hawaii.

[528] And he started to call him in Hawaii.

[529] And in the documentary, they show him in Hawaii with his devotees, just taking him around, opening the door for him, the whole deal.

[530] Right.

[531] it's so strange the cult thing is so bizarre because it's so it's so common and it's it just seems like there's so many people that want to be led by someone who has the answers because most people are like you and i they're like try to do our best live our life fuck up make mistakes try to figure out what makes you happy like what's this all about what is life and what are we what are we doing here And for some, when someone comes along, says, I have the answers.

[532] You're like, oh, these guys get the answers.

[533] I need the fucking answers.

[534] Like, what are the answers?

[535] Yeah, I will say, you know, I've spent a lot of time with Hari Krishna or with Krishna consciousness devotees, you know, they're making that show.

[536] And generally speaking, they are positive, peaceful souls.

[537] They seem at peace with their place in the world in a way that, you know, I frankly found sort of compelling and attractive.

[538] So it's easy to see.

[539] And maybe they do have the answers.

[540] Maybe this ancient, like, spiritual tradition is at least part of the answer.

[541] Well, it certainly can be an answer for some people if you are of the right mindset and if you're truly trying to be on that path.

[542] But the problem is it's so easy to be subverted.

[543] It's like someone can come along and slowly kind of take over and twist it.

[544] True with any religion.

[545] Yeah.

[546] Yeah.

[547] I mean, look at televangelists, right?

[548] Right.

[549] I mean, there's real Christians out there that are really great, wonderful people that want to live by the teachings of Christ and live a better, more just and holy life.

[550] And they really do want to live like that.

[551] And then they're psychos who want private jets and a giant arena to have all their followers and they want mansions.

[552] Yeah.

[553] Yeah.

[554] Those guys are real.

[555] And they thrive.

[556] They're everywhere.

[557] Well, one of Kirtananda's enforcer and hitman was this guy named Thomas Drescher, whose Christian name was Tirta.

[558] And he, like, drove the bus.

[559] There was a school bus that would not, he wasn't driving kids around, but they bought a school bus to kind of take people from one part of the, you know, commune to another or whatever.

[560] But really why he was there.

[561] And he was one of the dudes that, like, joined the, he was in Vietnam, Vietnam Combat Vet.

[562] I think I saw hardcore combat in Vietnam, came back, bent in the head, was trying to find the answers, trying to find help, probably for PTSD, found the Hari Krishna's join, but the first temple or two that he was at, they were like, something a little off about this guy.

[563] So let's send him to Kirtananda.

[564] Kirtanaanaana met this dude and was like, oh, I got a purpose for you, brother.

[565] You know, you're now enforcer number one.

[566] And so if you fucked up, if like, you weren't supposed to have a television, or if you broke the rules or you defied Kyrtonanda in any way, if you got some money from your family, you didn't kick it to him, Tirta came and paid you a visit, okay?

[567] Wow.

[568] And when Kirtana, when Kirtana started whacking dudes, basically, it was Tirta that did it.

[569] Oh.

[570] You know, he just, he just shoot you and, yeah, he was, he was, he was smart.

[571] He buried Charles St. Dennis's body.

[572] He diverted a little creek and by damming it up and then buried the body and then took away the dam.

[573] So the whole, so the homicide cop, Thomas Westfall, he was like, I was looking for that body everywhere and never thought to look under the little river, you know.

[574] Did they bring cadaver dogs to try to search for it?

[575] I don't think they brought dogs.

[576] Eventually, like, what happened was, and the reason that Kirtanana, why they finally got him, is that Tierra flipped on him.

[577] Now, they arrested Tira Thomas Drescher for murder because there was another devotee that got killed in Los Angeles that was also sort of outing Kirtananda and his corruption and whatnot.

[578] And so they got Drescher.

[579] And once he was in prison, like Kirtanaana held the ceremony and like appointed him to this like high status within Krishna consciousness.

[580] And of course that was like a way to try and keep him quiet.

[581] Right.

[582] And he remained a believer.

[583] But then there was this incident known as the Winnebago incident where Kirtananda, there's this was this was writing in a Winnebago with this like, I think it was a little boy from like Pakistan or India.

[584] And the, like, curtains jostled open.

[585] And he was seen in full view by multiple witnesses, like, sodomizing this kid.

[586] And, like, too many people saw it to cover it up, right?

[587] And word got to Thomas Drescher in prison that this had happened.

[588] And he heard from enough people who he trusted and believed that this was true, that he immediately flipped on Kyrton Ananda and said, like, yep, he paid me and ordered me to kill these guys.

[589] And here's where you can find the bodies.

[590] So he didn't know that Kyrton andanda.

[591] He didn't believe it.

[592] He was a true believer.

[593] You know, he didn't want to believe it.

[594] So it was only when he was, you know, he didn't firsthand witness it himself, but it was only when he was faced with like multiple people who he trusted, who were telling him, we saw this, it's true.

[595] You know, and then to his credit, I think he, he immediately flipped.

[596] You know, we tried to do an interview with him, but he, we couldn't get into the prison to get him to go on camera.

[597] So we do in the show, we do have audio interview excerpts.

[598] Yeah.

[599] Yeah.

[600] Wow.

[601] One of the saddest things about holy hell is they talked to some of the devotees that had left and now they're lost because they had essentially they had left 20 years of their life with this guy.

[602] And now here they were 50.

[603] And like this one lady was like a dog walker now.

[604] Right.

[605] She had just kind of lost.

[606] No real purpose in life didn't, you know, her whole thing was bullshit.

[607] Yeah.

[608] Her whole life was bullshit.

[609] Yeah.

[610] And some of the kids that grew up at New Vrindavan under Kirtan Ananda when it was legitimately a cult by any definition.

[611] You know, some of them are still followers of Krishna consciousness.

[612] Some of them, you know, have left it way behind, right?

[613] Yeah.

[614] And have nothing good to say about that.

[615] But some of them are still like followers of Prabapod's teachings.

[616] And they believe that Kirtananda was an aberration.

[617] I think that's probably right.

[618] I think that's probably right, too.

[619] I mean, my friend who's really into the Hari Krishna, he's a very peaceful guy.

[620] And the way he looks at it is like, you know, this is a way to live.

[621] This is a possible way to live for some people that if done correctly and done with the right spirit and the right mindset, like really can be a beautiful, blissful way of existing.

[622] Right.

[623] And I just, I like, not only like, I buy into the idea of karma and reincarnation.

[624] That reads is true, that feels true to me. And reincarnation?

[625] Yeah.

[626] Yeah.

[627] Really?

[628] What reads is true, what part reads is true?

[629] Well, then we get into DMT, right?

[630] Okay.

[631] All right.

[632] I tried DMT.

[633] When did you do that?

[634] It was in 2013, and I'm a one and done DMT guy.

[635] Don't need to do it again.

[636] Okay.

[637] So here's my DMT story.

[638] is that in 1999, I was super in the rave scene, and I was in London at this three -day rave called The Warp.

[639] And it was the kind of party where it was like, someone asked you the time, you'd be like, it's 9 .30, and they'd be like, AM or PM, you know?

[640] And it was a great party, right?

[641] Three days near the Tower of London, literally underground, and underground party literally underground.

[642] They had DJ rooms and dance rooms.

[643] But they also had these live performance rooms.

[644] And I saw this performance artist called the Technopagan Octopus Messiah.

[645] And he was describing his DMT experience.

[646] And I hadn't heard about DMT.

[647] And by the way, his stuff is fantastic.

[648] I think he's come the closest of anybody except Terrence McKenna and actually capturing what the DMT experience is as a writer.

[649] outside his uh performing where the room where he's performing there's this tent that just said deep deep meditation therapy i was like oh now i know what that means right and i watch people doing dmt and i was like uh i was already rolling on three or four hits of mdMA so i was like well not tonight but if it ever comes my way i'm going to do it i made myself a promise that night i'm not going to seek this out but if it ever comes my way and then it did And in 2014, I just went to see a buddy mine in Brooklyn.

[650] I was working on a documentary out there, and he was like, you want to try this?

[651] I was like, okay, before I changed my mind, let's do this.

[652] And 15 minutes later, I believed in reincarnation.

[653] I believed in karma and reincarnation.

[654] And I felt a lot better about death.

[655] Yeah, I felt a lot better about death too after I did it.

[656] Well, with my experience was that I got, you know, a short glimpse that's sort of a user manual for the cosmos.

[657] And in there was the knowledge that.

[658] reincarnation is real, that the Buddhists have it right, that after you die, you go to the bardo for 49 days, your soul is out there, you get a chance to kind of like assess the last life you led before you take another spin on the carousel, learn what you can, get rewarded for your good deeds, suffer for your sins, and then go back.

[659] And I believe it, but I also just like it, you know?

[660] I just like it.

[661] It feels true to me in a way that like the...

[662] evangelist or fundamentalist Christian idea of like you can just do a bunch of bad shit and then you know promise yourself to Jesus and have a clean slate fuck that I'm not buying that you know yeah but karma reincarnation I'm buying it there's something there I mean it's it's fascinating that that concept has existed for so long and even the concept of heaven that existed for so long.

[663] Right.

[664] And angels and souls and all those things.

[665] I think we have a very limited ability to grasp reality.

[666] And I think that limited ability is biological.

[667] It's kind of based upon our primate origins and what we are as a thing, as a biological entity.

[668] We only, we have essentially the tools that we need in order to survive.

[669] And those tools are the ability to recognize danger and communicate and establish community and purpose and all these different things.

[670] But when you have like real breakthrough psychedelic experiences, to me it seems like it's allowing you.

[671] a vision into all that exists, not just what you're physically capable of seeing as a human being, but this chemical gateway or whatever it is that psychedelics give you, allows you to see that these things...

[672] what i got out of it is that everything is connected every action every thought your thoughts your life your words your your your deeds the the way you approach things the way you respond to things that they're all connected in some very strange way and the living my life The more I follow that as thinking that everything is all connected, the more my life has been more beautiful.

[673] The more my life has been more rewarding and rich and more pleasing, more filled with love and community.

[674] And it's something that I kind of need to remind myself all the time because I think the biological entity...

[675] has certain like human reward systems that are built into it, try to acquire resources to try to, you know, to try to establish dominance, to try to succeed.

[676] There's all these different things that as a human, you know, people are, they want success, they want all these different things.

[677] And that those things can kind of, because you could see the physical manifestation of that work, that that can sort of overcome the idea that everything is connected.

[678] And so that's, I think, why people cheat on their taxes or insider trade or do all these different things, fuck people over in business deals, and they don't think that they're going to experience any negative consequences of it.

[679] But I don't think anybody gets away free.

[680] Again, that's why I like the idea of karma and reincarnation.

[681] Yeah.

[682] You don't get away with it.

[683] There's something to it.

[684] And it's, again, going back to the Vedas, like the oldest, you know, organized system of spiritual beliefs known for our species.

[685] That's core to it.

[686] Well, we have the most complicated organism, we are the most complicated organism that we're currently aware of.

[687] in terms of our ability to manipulate our environment, our ability to communicate, our ability to create things.

[688] Yeah.

[689] But we don't have an operator's manual, which is crazy.

[690] So we're essentially running on this primate software that that was really established, it's almost like we have DOS or Windows 95 and we just keep refreshing it.

[691] Right.

[692] You know, we don't, there's no real new operating system.

[693] Yeah.

[694] And it's so filled with flaws that the human operating system is designed to ward off predators and to fight off neighboring tribes and to try to avoid starvation and to try to make sure that your genes pass on and that your enemy's genes don't.

[695] And to, you know, to exist in 2024 and modern Western world with all of our technology and all of our knowledge and all the information that we have available with this ancient primate software.

[696] Yeah.

[697] It's so problematic.

[698] It's so fraught with peril.

[699] There's so many things that can go wrong and so many people that go sideways with.

[700] drug addiction and gambling addiction and sex addiction and this addiction and that addiction and so much chaos.

[701] and, you know, fevery and violence and, you know, and deception and fraud.

[702] And there's just so many things that exist that are negative, but are tied to this concept of achieving and getting more, which is, you know, this famine -based mentality, this resource -acquiring mentality.

[703] that really is like the monkey stealing your sunglasses so it can get mangoes.

[704] Right.

[705] It's really, you know?

[706] No, no, totally agree.

[707] And I felt like with DMT, I got like a very short, it was like, I felt like there was this sentient, generally benevolent force out there in the cosmos.

[708] It was like, okay, look, I'm going to give you a lot of information.

[709] You're not going to be able to retain most of it.

[710] Right.

[711] But you're ready?

[712] Here we go.

[713] Yeah.

[714] And one of the things that I brought back that I still believe a decade later is that reincarnation is real that's how it works karma is real that's how it works what you do in this life affects your next one so and that also gives you like kind of the user's guide you're talking about about how to be a better person how to be a better species yeah i didn't get a reincarnation vibe I'm not opposed to the idea of reincarnation, but I got a vibe that there's other things and there's other dimensions and there's other experiences.

[715] And there's maybe levels of existence.

[716] And that this existence that we're experiencing right now as human beings is just this very strange, confusing, Almost like a puzzle that you are on this planet trying to solve and you can get distracted.

[717] Yeah, yeah.

[718] You can get distracted by all sorts of things in this life.

[719] But the things that bring you happiness and love, you have to kind of like sort those out and choose those amongst the different options that the puzzle gives you.

[720] Yeah.

[721] You know this podcast Psychedelic Salon?

[722] Yeah, sure.

[723] I had that guy on, Lorenzo.

[724] Yeah, Lorenzo.

[725] Back in the day.

[726] He's great.

[727] Yeah, he is.

[728] I recently got to know him and he asked me to give you a message because I guess two or three months ago you were musing about whether or not he was still alive because he hadn't posted any new episodes recently.

[729] He is still alive.

[730] That's his message.

[731] Lorenzo's message.

[732] And after he heard that you'd raise that question, he's been posting.

[733] Oh, that's great.

[734] Can you connect me to him?

[735] Yeah, absolutely.

[736] Please.

[737] So Lorenzo and I in the aforementioned Technopagan Octopus Messiah are in the process of collaborating with some AI animation artists on a documentary about the Stoned Ape Theory.

[738] I think it's going to be dope.

[739] Have you seen Dennis McKenna's assessment of it?

[740] Yeah.

[741] He broke it down on the podcast where he was explaining to me the actual mechanisms that would be involved in psilocybin accelerating the human mind and the ability to form language and...

[742] concepts and creativity and all the different things that McKenna talked about right but you know Dennis is like hardcore like fact -based scientist right yeah yeah you've had several great guests on there talking about that theory but I've been like there's about to be already there's it's showing signs but there's about to be just a glut of AI animation movies, even in documentaries, like, I think AI animation is going to replace, you know, recreations, you know, where they hire actors to recreate stuff.

[743] We did it in Christians, right?

[744] We, we recreated, you know, murder scenes using actors in firearms and stuff, prop firearms.

[745] But I think, but so I've been approached with, I don't even know how many ideas for, like, do AI animation docs.

[746] They've just been like, gimmick, gimmick, gimmick, but this one really felt right, like...

[747] A, I think that Terrence McKenna would have loved the idea of using AI animation to, like, you know, show the evolution of our species, you know, as they pick the mushrooms out of the cows and stuff.

[748] And also one idea that we're toying with, I think we'll go forward with now that we've actually, you know, I think we've got the technology actually dialed in, where we built this AI world, this Terrence McKenna AI world, where we can give it ideas and it'll spit back imagery to us that feels right, is building some sort of like...

[749] AI Avatar of Terrence McKenna.

[750] So the idea is that the spine of the documentary will be any time where, because Lorenzo has incredible archives of Terrence McKenna, you know, stuff that nobody else has.

[751] Yeah, it is everything.

[752] And anytime you're hearing Terrence McKenna's voice describing the Stone Date theory will take people through it step by step, you'll be seeing AI animation.

[753] of what he's describing.

[754] So you hear in Terrence McKenna's voice, but seeing AI.

[755] So for people that don't know what the Stone -Ape theory is, we should probably explain it to them for people who have never heard it before.

[756] And the concept is that at one point in evolution, There was climate change and that these rainforests, tropical rainforests, had receded into grasslands and that these primates had started experimenting with different food sources by flipping over cow patties and looking for grubs and all these different things.

[757] And one of the things that they would do is probably test the mushrooms that were growing in the cow patties.

[758] Right.

[759] And in many places where psilocybin exists, these things are extremely prevalent.

[760] Like my friend Duncan, who grew up in Asheville, North Carolina...

[761] told me that mushrooms were so prevalent that the local ranchers had, they started putting feed in, with the cattle feed, some sort of antifungal thing to keep fungus from growing in cow shit.

[762] Yeah.

[763] Because so many kids were going on to the field and picking the mushrooms.

[764] And picking psilocybin mushrooms.

[765] He's like they were everywhere.

[766] They were everywhere.

[767] You know, and, um, So the concept is that low doses of psilocybin increase visual acuity, make people more amorous.

[768] So it probably heightened sexual arousal, made people more likely to breed, and made people more curious, probably because of the increasing visual acuity, made people better hunters.

[769] Right.

[770] Better, you know, there's studies that have been done.

[771] I forget what the scientist did.

[772] It was a hardcore, you know, non -psychedelic scientist who did studies on edge detection with patients.

[773] Right.

[774] You know these studies?

[775] Yeah, yeah.

[776] And it showed that people under the influence of psilocybin can detect deviant, like, so if you have two parallel lines and one slightly deviates from parallel, the people on psilocybin can predict it much quicker, can see it much quicker than the people not on psilocybin, which is fascinating.

[777] And you'd be a much better hunter.

[778] Much better hunter.

[779] And, you know, much better at surviving being hunted.

[780] And also just be more tuned into things.

[781] Yeah.

[782] You're more aware of, like, I know a lot of people that use psilocybin when they play certain sports.

[783] And they think that psilocybin low doses.

[784] It's like low dose, yeah.

[785] Yeah, low doses for playing pool and things like that.

[786] You just have a better understanding of what's happening.

[787] I attest to it, low micro doses for chess.

[788] Chess, huh?

[789] Yeah.

[790] Does it help you?

[791] Really?

[792] I think it does.

[793] Actually, I can demonstrate that it does, you know, in my game ratings.

[794] Really?

[795] Absolutely.

[796] Interesting.

[797] Now, I don't know if I buy the Stone Date theory in the same way that I fully buy into, you know, the concept of the bardo and reincarnation karma and all that.

[798] But it's sure fucking fun to think about, man. Well, doesn't it, I mean, it mimics DMT.

[799] Like, psilocybin and dimethyotryptamine are very closely related.

[800] Yeah.

[801] You know, I think, I think when it's broken down, I think I'm going to fuck this up, but I think it's N -N -4 -Faraloxy and N -Methylotryptamine.

[802] It's like, it's very close to what dimethyptamine is.

[803] And, you know, we also know that dimethythotryptamine is endogenously produced.

[804] You know, it's produced in the human brain.

[805] We don't, we don't understand why.

[806] And, you know, that's a...

[807] Rick Strassman, who wrote that book, DMT, The Spirit Molecules, talked about that.

[808] And they've done a lot of great research at the Cottonwood Research Foundation, trying to determine, like, where it's produced, why it's produced.

[809] They used to think it was just produced by the pineal gland.

[810] Now they think, I believe, it's produced by the whole brain.

[811] And this thing that these primates were finding...

[812] was giving them that and giving them more of an understanding of the world around them and expanding the brain.

[813] And the other thing about the human, the concept of the Stone Date theory is this bizarre fact in the history of humans that...

[814] In the entire species, like the record of species, one of the biggest mysteries is the doubling of the human brain size over a period of two million years.

[815] And McKenna says that that coincides with this exact same time period where the tropical rainforests were receding into grasslands and then they believed that these primates were experimenting on new food sources.

[816] So there's all these things that sort of line up with it, and it makes it a fascinating idea.

[817] But if you think about, like, if they found out that this thing gives them this feeling and they were, you know, they're repeatedly using it over and over and over again, and then their offspring did it and their offspring did it.

[818] And you're, you know, playing this out over a couple million years.

[819] Mm -hmm.

[820] You could see how this would happen.

[821] Yeah.

[822] Also the development of language.

[823] Yes.

[824] Yes.

[825] The glossalia.

[826] Yeah.

[827] Glossilia.

[828] Yeah.

[829] Yeah.

[830] Thank you.

[831] You know, like high doses.

[832] Mm -hmm.

[833] Yeah.

[834] Like I said, I'm not sure I buy it, but...

[835] You know, it should be a fun movie to make.

[836] Well, something happened.

[837] Yeah.

[838] Yeah.

[839] It's very obvious that something happened that separated us from all the other primates.

[840] Like, in a radical way.

[841] We don't look anything like them.

[842] Right.

[843] We have abilities in...

[844] we have so many attributes that are far beyond any other primate.

[845] And it kind of makes sense.

[846] Yeah.

[847] And also there's people that can achieve those states without psychedelics, which is fascinating.

[848] And I've gone pretty close with some breathing exercises and especially breathing exercises in sensory deprivation.

[849] You can achieve some definite psychedelic states.

[850] I haven't had the full visual effects that are available with DMT.

[851] But boy, you definitely get to some bizarre place where if it was a drug, it would be a very popular drug.

[852] Well, back to the Christians.

[853] That's what Prabapod was preaching.

[854] And a lot of his early devotees were people that had taken a lot of acid or mescaline, right?

[855] Or peyote.

[856] Yeah.

[857] And felt like they were getting glimpses of something, but they couldn't, like, understand it.

[858] And he's like...

[859] Let me show you how to get there, right, without the drugs.

[860] Right.

[861] And what was Prabopod using to try to get there?

[862] Meditation.

[863] Yeah.

[864] Just deep meditation.

[865] Yeah, I think there's...

[866] They're chanting of like ancient sacred mantras and meditation.

[867] Yeah.

[868] Well, that's the other thing that happens with DMT rituals that they play Ikaros, these ancient South American songs that sort of, you know, enhance the experience.

[869] Like when you do DMT with Ikoros playing, the DMT dances to the sound.

[870] And it's very strange to watch.

[871] It's a beautiful, bizarre.

[872] And, you know, it's overwhelming.

[873] Like, you can't, it's hard to believe that it's really happening while it's happening.

[874] And, you know, you got to kind of let go and just like let it happen and experience it.

[875] Because you're so blown away by it all, it's hard to just not just go, what the fuck, like every five seconds.

[876] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[877] You got to kind of just take it in and accept it.

[878] Yeah.

[879] I tried to get my dad to try DMT.

[880] My dad died recently.

[881] And about six months ago, I tried to get him to try DMT.

[882] I was like, listen, you know, until I tried this dad, you know, I was like, same as you, like basically Spock, like cold logic reason, right?

[883] You know?

[884] Like, that's my dad.

[885] Yeah.

[886] Super smart, like, mathematical genius was my dad.

[887] And he was like, well, it sounds interesting, but I guess if you're right, I'll find out on my own.

[888] Because I was like, this is kind of like the trailer for the movie, dad.

[889] Interesting.

[890] I'll find out on my own.

[891] Yeah.

[892] Interesting.

[893] So, yeah, he died like two weeks ago while I was in Ukraine.

[894] Oh, wow.

[895] Yeah.

[896] What were you doing in Ukraine?

[897] I was reporting.

[898] I was working.

[899] I wasn't filming, but I was doing some research.

[900] And I was in a war zone.

[901] I mean, the whole fucking country is a war zone.

[902] But I was in a war zone where, like, communications were dicey at best.

[903] And I got a text message from my wife on Signal.

[904] It was like your dad's heart valve is failing rapidly.

[905] He's in the hospital.

[906] He's probably got like 48 hours to live.

[907] And the airspace over Ukraine is closed.

[908] So there's no way that I could get from where I was in Ukraine to Anchorage, Alaska to be with him.

[909] And so I was just sending, like, text messages on signal to the nurses and they were reading them to him.

[910] Wow.

[911] Yeah.

[912] And then I was able to record one voice memo, like right as he was going, because the last sense to go when you're dying is sense of hearing.

[913] And they played him like a message from me. Wow.

[914] But to answer your question, but what was I doing in Ukraine?

[915] Looking into a possible documentary that be set against the backdrop of the current war, but that would be more about like what is actually the true nature of corruption in Ukraine and what has it been?

[916] And what was it in the 90s?

[917] Yeah.

[918] And what is it today?

[919] And like how has the U .S. State Department kind of fucked up again in the same way that we did in Vietnam and every war like Vietnam?

[920] Afghanistan, Iraq, by backing the wrong horses.

[921] We've never not fucked up.

[922] Yeah.

[923] There's never been one, whether it's Libya or Afghanistan, Iraq.

[924] There's not one where you could point to like, we nailed that one.

[925] Right.

[926] There's not one.

[927] Right.

[928] There's not one.

[929] Right.

[930] And, you know, when there was so much resistance to the concept that Ukraine was corrupt when we first started backing them, you know, that was what was fascinating to me because It was always talked about how corrupt Ukraine was.

[931] It was always talked about.

[932] And then all of a sudden, this was a foreboding topic.

[933] Like, no, Russia is the aggressor and the invader and Ukraine are their angels.

[934] And they're like, wait a minute.

[935] You know, there's this is not, that's not reality.

[936] Like, But it was also that we would, the U .S. government would be like, okay, we would sort of designate who is corrupt and who wasn't.

[937] I mean, look, the U .S. went through its own sort of oligarchy, like robber barren phase, you know, in the late 1800s.

[938] That was like after we'd been a democracy for 100 years.

[939] It's not.

[940] unfortunately it's kind of a step on the evolution of free democracy is to have this phase where you're like you know things are super corrupt like i i uh i spent some time at a at an orthodox monastery in ukraine last month and i asked the sort of head of the monastery like what would you have to do to get rid of corruption in this country He's like, well, I'm a man of God.

[941] You know, he's speaking through an interpret.

[942] He's like, I'm a man of God, so I'm not advocating this.

[943] But what you could do is you could take.

[944] Because the main problem in Ukraine right now is I understand it is the judicial system.

[945] They have what they call, which is called telephone law, which is basically like before a judge makes a ruling, he gets a phone call telling him which way to rule.

[946] Oh, Jesus.

[947] You know?

[948] And so he's the head of this monastery.

[949] He was like, you can line up.

[950] every judge and shoot them and then and then all the judges or all the like government officials that come to their funerals shoot them and do that two or three times and then we might be able to start over like she was saying that's how systemic this is but Jesus I mean man of God's telling you this yeah that's a guy who's like reached the limits yeah yeah oh my God But I'll tell you, my time in Ukraine really changed my perspective on that war.

[951] And I came back a real sort of hawk thinking that we should fully support Ukraine in the war.

[952] Yeah.

[953] Why is that?

[954] Part of it was just being with the people who the Ukraine, I just like the Ukrainians, you know, in a way that I've been to other former Soviet bloc countries.

[955] And it's kind of like, I won't name any of them, but I just feel like, ah, I'm not sure you guys are really down with the freedom and democracy thing, you know?

[956] It seems like you've been, you were subjugated for a while and you don't, it just didn't get the same vibe.

[957] Like, I think that Ukrainians are legitimately freedom -loving people, okay, that have been like under the thumb of corrupt leadership for decades now.

[958] Yeah.

[959] But to just, part of it was there was something very enthralling about being in a place where everyone is so unified, like this country under attack being invaded by a hostile force.

[960] Now, these are the Ukrainians that have stayed behind, okay?

[961] But there's still a lot of them.

[962] I mean, and just that in coming from America where everything is so splintered and divided now and to be in a place where everyone is so on the same page.

[963] There was something very attractive about that.

[964] Well, that is what happens when you get invaded.

[965] Do you remember what it was like in America after 9 -11?

[966] Right after 9 -11.

[967] It was the most united this country has ever been.

[968] And it's a horrible thing to say because it's not what you ever want to happen again to wake everybody up.

[969] But it was the thing that was required to make people put American flags on their cars.

[970] And it was a lot of ways, I mean, it was a horrible tragedy.

[971] But in a lot of ways, the reaction to it was very beautiful.

[972] There was so many people that were so, I was in New York City, like just a few weeks or a few months after 9 -11.

[973] Everybody was friendly.

[974] It was crazy.

[975] It was like everybody was just so blown away by the experience of being attacked and so just shaken out of it and so aware of how fortunate they were to not be one of those people who died.

[976] and that we are legitimately all together and that there are forces out there that are evil and that we have to stay united.

[977] And I hate to think that that's what's required to wake people up from this division.

[978] But I was wondering, like, I wonder if maybe the division that we have in this country is because of the fact that we're never attacked.

[979] And because of the fact that we only experienced a few of the Pearl Harbor, 9 -11, there's only a few of these moments where we've had to wake up.

[980] Yeah, yeah.

[981] The Aleutian Islands, actually, in Alaska, were attacked and occupied by Japanese forces in World War II.

[982] Oh, really?

[983] A little known fact.

[984] Yeah, that's actually American territory.

[985] I didn't know that.

[986] Yeah.

[987] But I mean, we fucking, man, I mean, the Ukrainians, they had nuclear weapons.

[988] And in 1994, the quote unquote West, the U .S. and the U .K., basically convinced them, you know, to give up their nukes in exchange for a guarantee that we would help them protect their sovereign territory.

[989] Right.

[990] You know.

[991] Yeah.

[992] Yeah, that was right after the fall of the Soviet Union.

[993] Yeah.

[994] Yeah.

[995] Yeah, there's so many factors, right?

[996] There's the NATO encroaching on Russia's territory.

[997] I mean, in 2004, like, NATO started handing out membership cards like fucking crackerjack prizes, right?

[998] Putin gets reelected in 2004, 20 years ago.

[999] And all of a sudden, like, all these former Soviet, you know, small territories are now NATO countries.

[1000] Yeah.

[1001] Hey, you want to be NATO?

[1002] Oh, well, great.

[1003] Now we're like signed up for a mutual defense treaty with Lithuania.

[1004] Right.

[1005] You know, nothing against Lithuanians, but...

[1006] fuck man you know this is this is getting serious it's very serious what happens if he if he invades a nato country like what are we gonna do right you know because china's watching and i'll tell you you know i've been like under fire would be over dramatic but i have i've had quite a few iranian fucking shaheed drones launched in my general direction recently It gives you another perspective on, like, you know, Russia's support for Iran and vice versa.

[1007] You know, like a mutual enemy of ours.

[1008] Like, those are Iranian fucking drones being shot at us.

[1009] And, I don't know.

[1010] You know, Russia recently had Hamas, like, had a delegation from Hamas visit the Kremlin.

[1011] I mean, what the fuck, man?

[1012] Really?

[1013] Yeah.

[1014] Yeah.

[1015] So anyway.

[1016] This is a fucking sketchy time.

[1017] It really is.

[1018] It's such a sketchy time.

[1019] It's to say like, oh, like World War III is imminent.

[1020] It sounds doomsayer, but it feels like it could go that way.

[1021] It's cool.

[1022] China, you know.

[1023] They're looking at us.

[1024] That's the problem if we sort of like showed our ass and back down, you know, if Putin keeps going, is then China may just test that red line with Taiwan.

[1025] Yeah.

[1026] Well, I think they're preparing for that.

[1027] Yeah.

[1028] At least when I've talked to people that understand.

[1029] You know, I just, I mean, I think that the war in Ukraine could have been prevented.

[1030] I think that there was this false dichotomy where there were forces in the U .S. government, and this is part of the documentary I want to make, is about.

[1031] that forced you, there was like, you either have to be, you know, a puppet of Russia or our puppet.

[1032] You have to either have to be NATO or going to, there's no middle ground.

[1033] When in fact, I think that Ukraine could have been a bridge, a peaceful bridge between Russia and the quote unquote West, where maybe it could have joined the European Union economically free trade, but not joined NATO, right?

[1034] Because that's what Putin was so adamant against.

[1035] And you understand, I mean, I think he's a war criminal fucking power mad, you know, asshole, right?

[1036] But you can sort of see from his perspective, if you look at a map and you start to see all these NATO countries around Russia, you kind of see, you know, what motivates him.

[1037] Well, that's the people in the State Department had always said that was his red line.

[1038] His red line was Ukraine.

[1039] Yeah.

[1040] Yeah.

[1041] And then when they're trying to get Ukraine to join NATO, it's like, what are we doing?

[1042] Right.

[1043] What are we doing?

[1044] We bring it about World War III and why and how much money's being spent.

[1045] Right.

[1046] And where's that money going?

[1047] Right.

[1048] Yeah.

[1049] And who's got a vested interest in keeping that money flowing?

[1050] Yeah.

[1051] That's where it gets scary.

[1052] Right.

[1053] That's what I'm looking into, and I don't want to tip my hand too much, but I think I've got pretty convincing evidence that the U .S. Department of Justice has been used by the U .S. State Department to further U .S. foreign policy interests in Ukraine in ways that aren't really, like, right, like either bringing criminal charges against people in the U .S., but like Ukrainians, like charging them with crimes in the U .S., including some people that have never even set foot in the United States, charging with crimes or getting them out of trouble, like dropping criminal charges against them to sort of like...

[1054] And again, it goes back to like our designating, you're a good guy, you're a bad guy.

[1055] You know, you're corrupt, you're not.

[1056] Even though they're both just grabbing, you know, billions with both hands.

[1057] So...

[1058] It's a fucking scary time, man. It really is.

[1059] It's wild to me that Zelensky is the president, too.

[1060] You have essentially a comedian who played the president on a television show.

[1061] And they're like, we like you.

[1062] If they held an election today, he would not be reelected.

[1063] No?

[1064] No. No. But then they support him.

[1065] It's interesting.

[1066] It's like you ask them, do you support the president?

[1067] They say, yes, like, we're at war.

[1068] Would you vote for him?

[1069] No. What was their opposition?

[1070] I think he's mismanaging the war, you know, and also I think they suspect that he's corrupt.

[1071] Yeah.

[1072] And I think he probably is.

[1073] But that doesn't, but the fact that, look, the fact that 50 cents of every dollar that we send there, you know, this isn't actually how it goes down, but even if that was the case, is going into somebody's pocket doesn't mean that we can just turn Ukraine over to Russia, in my opinion.

[1074] I think that we should be backing them full on militarily, not with U .S. troops, but giving them what they need to fight.

[1075] Because, you know, I talked to a lot of special forces guys over there.

[1076] They were like, basically like, Those Russian human waves attacks were just like mowing these guys.

[1077] It's not even really combat.

[1078] We're just mowing these guys down until we run out of bullets and then we have to retreat.

[1079] Those are the battles.

[1080] That's what Putin's able to do because he's got so many guys.

[1081] And he's also letting people out of jail.

[1082] Yeah, yeah.

[1083] Letting people out of jail and giving them, you serve and your time is, your sentence is rescinded.

[1084] Well, so people think of Russia and they think of Moscow and St. Petersburg, but you look at that country on a map.

[1085] It's fucking massive.

[1086] There's so much territory east of the Earl Mountains.

[1087] It's just a bunch of villages, what we call flyover country, right?

[1088] Well, Putin is offering deals like sign up where it's like, You know, more money than they make in a year per month, A, and then B, if you're killed, your family's set up for life.

[1089] They can buy a house, you know, whatever.

[1090] Yeah.

[1091] So it's very attractive offers for these really poor people from rural Russia.

[1092] And then they're using them as just human cannon fodder.

[1093] 100%.

[1094] 100%.

[1095] It's a, it's just, I just can't remember a time in my life where things that just seemed so unhinged.

[1096] No, no, I asked my parents about that too.

[1097] I'm too, because of my dad before he passed, they were like, no, we don't remember.

[1098] Even like Watergate, Vietnam era, you know, they weren't really old enough to remember the Great Depression, but even that was just sort of limited to the U .S. I mean, I know they were global, you know, effects of that, ricochets of that.

[1099] But, yeah, it's, it feels like it could, like it could go sideways on us in a hurry.

[1100] Yeah.

[1101] Yeah, it does.

[1102] And then what does that look like?

[1103] That's what's terrifying.

[1104] What's terrifying is.

[1105] If you're willing to do, like, let's say what Israel is doing in Gaza, if you're willing to almost eliminate a city, just bomb the fuck out of a city and kill who knows how many innocents.

[1106] What are the numbers?

[1107] It's 30 ,000.

[1108] I don't know what the numbers are.

[1109] What's the line that keeps you from dropping a nuke that kills 300 ,000?

[1110] What's the line?

[1111] Like, when, what, you know, why are we...

[1112] why do we have this idea that it won't accelerate to that when it has in the past?

[1113] It's just because it only did, we only did it once in Japan in 1945.

[1114] Is that what it is?

[1115] I agree with, I mean, I agree with your assessment of that danger 100%.

[1116] That's another reason why I think that we have to help Ukraine stop Putin now because if he keeps going into Ukraine and then he invades a NATO country and we decide that we've got to go up against him.

[1117] Is there any evidence that he would do that, that he would invade a NATO country?

[1118] I don't think he'll stop.

[1119] You don't think so?

[1120] I think, dude, he's been in power for a long time for a leader of Russia.

[1121] I think that he, I mean, I watched that Tucker Carlson interview, right?

[1122] Yeah.

[1123] And that history lesson that he delivered at the beginning, everyone was like, what the fuck is he talking about?

[1124] And Tucker just looked baffled.

[1125] I got it.

[1126] I actually thought I'm getting an insight into Putin's motivations in the way that he sees himself, which is a historic figure.

[1127] He sees himself as someone who's going to restore a Russian empire.

[1128] He like spends all day in the halls of the Kremlin with like, you know, portraits of Ivan the Terrible and Catherine the Great, right?

[1129] And I think that he's seeing himself.

[1130] as not the leader of a, you know, a free country, certainly, but someone who's going to restore a Russian empire.

[1131] So no, I absolutely do not think he will stop with Ukraine.

[1132] No way.

[1133] So then if he doesn't, and then he invades a NATO country and we go up against him, Man, those documents leaked recently from Russia that were showing what their lines were for when they would start using, quote, tactical nukes.

[1134] And, you know, I think he'd do it.

[1135] I think he'd do it.

[1136] I don't think he will.

[1137] What are the lines?

[1138] Well, they were...

[1139] Whatever.

[1140] If they started to lose a certain percentage of troops, I can't recall the specifics, but they were like shockingly liberal on when they would start to use tactical nukes on the battlefield in Europe.

[1141] You know?

[1142] Like if they started to have certain percentages of battlefield losses, we're not in the current situation, but like as they go further into Ukraine or in a war that came into Russian territory.

[1143] So I just think...

[1144] You know, we should stop this shit now.

[1145] This shit being Putin.

[1146] Is it possible?

[1147] I think it is possible.

[1148] I think it's possible to essentially let him have...

[1149] What's this jamming?

[1150] Oh, yeah.

[1151] Criteria for a potential nuclear response range from an enemy incursion on Russian territory to more specific triggers such as destruction of 20 % of Russia's strategic ballistic missile submarines.

[1152] This is the first time we've seen documents like this reported in the public domain, said Alexander Gubb...

[1153] How'd you say that?

[1154] Gobev?

[1155] Your guess is a good one.