S1 E10: Real Kimmy & Brian

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] This podcast is intended for mature audiences and could be triggering to some.

[11] Please use discretion when listening.

[12] In Jackson McKenzie's book, Psychopath Free, he writes, emotional abusers condition their victims to feel ashamed, inadequate, and unstable.

[13] This is because they are cowards, incapable of healthy relationships with strong and self -examble.

[14] respecting individuals.

[15] Oftentimes, they choose targets who are unusually successful and idealistic, because these people have more to lose.

[16] But abusers cannot control someone with such qualities, and so they break down the target's self -esteem through belittling, teasing, and manufactured jealousy.

[17] The target may have perfectionist tendencies, striving to meet the abuser's impossible standards.

[18] This results in a strange dynamic where the abuser is idealized, despite being lazy, dishonest, and unfaithful.

[19] The first recording you're going to hear on today's episode is an impromptu call between Sarah, Alyssa, and I on Veterans Day, Monday, November 12th, 2018.

[20] I'm Tiffany Reese, and this is, something was wrong.

[21] know me well.

[22] Oh my God, dude.

[23] I'm freaking out.

[24] I'm like trying to work and I just like literally blacked out for the last hour.

[25] I'm going to have to make it all up later because I didn't do anything.

[26] Do you think, I think there might be talking right now.

[27] What do you think?

[28] Because she's not responding.

[29] She's responding like really fast.

[30] Yeah.

[31] And so either she's like doing something at work.

[32] Oh my God.

[33] Okay.

[34] Do you want me to just read you the conversation because the screenshots were really confusing?

[35] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[36] Okay.

[37] So I sent her.

[38] A message.

[39] I said, you know, hi, I'm Tiffany Reese.

[40] I'm reaching out to you.

[41] Blah, blah, blah.

[42] You know.

[43] And then she said, hi, Tiffany.

[44] Can you send me proof?

[45] I said, yes, just a sec. Sent screenshots of the conversation from Kimmy and Sarah.

[46] Asked her to keep it private.

[47] And she said, that's so weird.

[48] I don't understand, like, how it's a scam.

[49] And I need to talk to my husband.

[50] And I'm, like, trying to explain it to her, which is really awkward.

[51] real.

[52] Well, of course.

[53] So she's like, I don't understand because it's like, oh, well, literally that's how fucked up it is.

[54] Of course you don't.

[55] And then I said, do you happen to know a 30 -something white male named Blab Dick?

[56] And because that's his name and she's like, my husband knows him, which point I just started freaking out.

[57] And, dude, it's the next level that he knows him.

[58] You know what?

[59] This crazy is I just had a feeling that he freaking knew him.

[60] I don't know why.

[61] I was just thinking, you know what?

[62] He's such a lazy sociopath that he probably just knows somebody and was like, oh, they're a good -looking couple that travel the world.

[63] Because also, like, it was so specific, the couple.

[64] Right.

[65] You know, like, how do you just randomly come across that unless he's just, like, a creepy person?

[66] But I'm like, oh, my freaking gosh.

[67] So then I'm like, she said, I don't understand what he's doing.

[68] And I'm like, it's really confusing.

[69] Basically, Dick used fake profiles under the name.

[70] names Kimmy and Brian and created fake accounts to make her think that she was talking to these fake friends.

[71] She said, I don't think we should participate in this.

[72] I'm a bit freaked out.

[73] Yeah, I bet.

[74] And she said, do you need anything?

[75] I said, I just kind of wanted to give you a heads up.

[76] She asked if you can confront.

[77] At first, I was like, uh, yeah, because I'm just thinking, well, it's not like I can stop you now.

[78] Right.

[79] Oh my God.

[80] She called, Sarah just texted.

[81] She called me, guys.

[82] We talked for 20 minutes.

[83] Oh, my God.

[84] Oh, my God.

[85] I'm going to see if I can call her.

[86] Can I call you?

[87] Sarah?

[88] Oh, my God.

[89] She called her right away.

[90] Me and Alyssa or, yeah, I'm going to try and.

[91] Okay, yes.

[92] Alyssa and I are going to three -way you right now.

[93] Okay.

[94] Oh, my God.

[95] Hello?

[96] Hello?

[97] Sarah.

[98] Oh, my gosh.

[99] I just got off the phone with her.

[100] She called me. I ran out of the office and was like pacing the parking lot.

[101] So she's so sweet.

[102] Oh.

[103] I know.

[104] So, she, I mean, she first wanted to know, like, how I was doing.

[105] She said, do you mind telling me the story?

[106] And so, like, how do you do that?

[107] Yeah.

[108] I kept it as quick as possible.

[109] She's, like, you could tell she felt we were asking, but she said, so the relationship between you and, like, Brian and Kimmy was fully platonic, right?

[110] Oh, yeah, oh, yeah.

[111] And between him, you know, the fictitious relationship between him and them was, was platonic.

[112] And I said that he, you know, as the story goes, he worked with Brian, blah, blah, blah.

[113] And she goes, okay, so here's how.

[114] He knows them.

[115] They did work together about like six years ago or so based out of California, I think, but it was remote.

[116] So I don't think, I don't think, you know who was in California at the time.

[117] So that's how they know him.

[118] They're not, I don't think they follow each other on Instagram, but they are currently Facebook friends.

[119] So, yeah.

[120] So her thing was, obviously, and this makes total sense, she's like, has anybody else, like, how many more pictures?

[121] did he send you and I'll send them all to you if you want she wanted to know if their pictures have been blasted on any other public platform like by us and I went no no no no right no especially not when there's children in some of them I would never yeah no she just wanted to make sure that's smart yeah totally that didn't happen yeah she wanted to know how I was doing but she said that they would wait for my go -ahead her husband does want to confront him and at least let him know that this is extremely inappropriate and I was like well beyond inappropriate it's disgusting I mean on a on a on a professional level as a past co -worker on a humane level it's unfathomable it's very violating incredibly violated and disgusted and creeped out but they are going to wait for my go -ahead to confront him on it I mean I told her the story and yeah she just kept saying I hope that you found peace I hope that you're you know healing okay and taking time for yourself My mouth is hanging open.

[122] You guys, I, like, when I answer the phone, she said, it's Sarah, and, you know, she said, I, you know, this is, and I went, I'm sorry.

[123] I just, just hearing your voice, you've got, there's no way for me to explain this to you, but it has been so ingrained.

[124] Like, I'm hearing the voice with Kimmy Powers, and I know that you, there's no way for you to wrap your mind around that.

[125] Oh, my God.

[126] There are times when she'd ask me questions, and I'd be quiet, and I'd just be like, I'm sorry, my brain is spinning.

[127] I'm just, I'm still back on the fact that I'm talking to Kimmy, but it's not.

[128] But it's finally you If a week from now I knew that on Veterans Day I would be talking to Kimmy on the phone Like what the heck Thank you for your service veterans Also Oh my gosh I am freaking out My heart is still racing When I was messaging with her I was literally supposed to be working And I'm like I'm like blacked out right now I don't even know where I'm at I'm just so in my own world My kids are home from school They're like asking me questions I'm like Mom it's not available right now.

[129] I'm like, make your own fish sticks.

[130] I love that you guys are just in this with me. It's almost like it happened to you too.

[131] And you guys have families of your own and jobs and, you know.

[132] Oh my gosh.

[133] In real time.

[134] What I've learned through this podcast and talking to everybody is like listen to your freaking gut, right?

[135] So I've been focusing on that so much more.

[136] And for some reason this whole freaking time, I've just had a feeling that he knew Brian somehow.

[137] I don't know why.

[138] Because The thing is, is, like, sociopaths, you would think they'd be more clever, but they literally are so full of themselves that they think I'll never get caught.

[139] Yep.

[140] And that's, yeah, exactly.

[141] That's the superiority complex.

[142] I've had a gut feeling.

[143] That's why I've saved everything that I'm going to need evidence one day.

[144] All of the text messages and everything are saved on an external hard drive.

[145] So if for any reason he was able to wipe my phone or access my Google Drive or even my ICloud account, it's all in an external hard drive elsewhere.

[146] Wow.

[147] But I've thought about getting another one just in case and, like, duplicating it and handing it out to people and just being like, you just put this in your garage somewhere.

[148] Seriously, in a fireproof safe.

[149] And also when I sent her the pictures, I almost expected her to be like, that's not even my kid.

[150] Like, he had photoshopped a fake kid into the, like, because God knows what depths he would.

[151] But that's even more jacked up that he took somebody's real freaking kid.

[152] Do you happen to send her the one where he claimed to be FaceTiming her?

[153] No. Oh my gosh.

[154] You should text it to her.

[155] And just say, hey, did your Instagram somewhere?

[156] Yep.

[157] Or Facebook, since he's Facebook friends with him.

[158] Oh.

[159] Happy Monday.

[160] Okay, well, I know everybody's got to get back to their day.

[161] But keep us updated, and I will too, if I hear anything.

[162] Okay.

[163] Love you guys.

[164] Love you too.

[165] Love you.

[166] Bye.

[167] I'm Dan Taberski.

[168] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[169] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[170] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[171] She's like, I can't.

[172] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[173] It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[174] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[175] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[176] Well, you were holding something back intentionally.

[177] Yeah, yeah.

[178] Well, yeah.

[179] No, it's hysteria.

[180] It's all in your head.

[181] It's not physical.

[182] Oh my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[183] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the witches of Salem?

[184] Or is it something else entirely?

[185] Something's wrong here.

[186] Something's not right.

[187] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[188] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[189] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[190] You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad -free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[191] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[192] She had been under the influence and she left him there.

[193] In January 2020, woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[194] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[195] What happens next?

[196] Depends on who you ask.

[197] Was it a crime of passion?

[198] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[199] This was clearly an intentional act.

[200] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[201] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[202] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[203] Everyone had an opinion.

[204] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[205] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[206] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[207] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondry Plus.

[208] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

[209] The following interview took place this past Thursday, March 7th, 2018.

[210] You know, she sounded like I pictured she would.

[211] That sounds so weird, but I don't know.

[212] You're just going to have to kind of roll with me. But I did have this idea built up in my head.

[213] And it took, I was telling her, I was messaging her the other day because we talk every once in a while now.

[214] And she, you know, I think she's been so sensitive about my healing process, which continually surprises me. It's so sweet of her.

[215] And I said, actually, you know, I don't want her to feel any sense of responsibility.

[216] But talking to her has been so healing in a weird way because it continues to unravel these false realities that had built up for so long.

[217] It took me a good, let's see, we broke up in May. it hit me in like June, I think, or July that they really, really weren't real.

[218] And I remember when his text came in, I was walking from an auto body shop to the gym in my hometown.

[219] And I read the text and I'm like walking on this main street and I put my phone in my backpack and I felt sick.

[220] I felt nauseated.

[221] And I thought, am I going to throw up here on this highway?

[222] And I couldn't go back to it.

[223] I couldn't read the text from Kimmy and Brian.

[224] and I couldn't go back over the letter for weeks and weeks and weeks because I just felt sick and so much fear and anxiety just because I thought if there are people out there like that and if this was so cunning and I fell for it, I can't trust the world anymore.

[225] I can't trust anybody anymore.

[226] I don't trust myself anymore.

[227] And it took so long to get rid of all that and go, wait, I can trust myself.

[228] Wait, I did have gut feelings.

[229] I did have red flags.

[230] That's what those meant.

[231] and it wasn't until maybe late September or I think it was definitely I think maybe after I first met with you that I pulled the letters back up it was because then I told you about them yeah and I was reading them in my room and that's when the anger hit because I hadn't the truth that those words were his and not someone else's hadn't fully sunk in and I didn't realize that they had until it's months later I look back over the letters because I pulled them out of a box in my closet or something and went what the I saved these and I'm reading it and then just this like white hot fury at how disgusting it all was and that I what I was seeing on that page was the real him it was the real him unmasked undisguised picking apart my body telling me how to treat him and it just really reflected how little he thinks of not just me, but women in general, that it made me feel sick and angry at the same time.

[232] Like, I can't even describe how furious I was.

[233] So talking to the real Kimmy, I don't even, it sounds so funny, I don't even think of her by her real name.

[234] To me, she's just RK, Real Kimmy.

[235] Me too.

[236] Yeah.

[237] Michael and I just only refer to her as Real Kimmy and Brian.

[238] like both of them were just like real Kimmy like I honestly have to think about what her actual name same she'll always be Kimmy Powers to me I know so I can't even imagine to you oh yeah and it's so interesting listening to the callback now um from the day that that happened when you're saying it's I'm sorry it's so weird but I feel like I'm actually talking to you but it's it's like this weird surreal moment because like yes she's a real person but she is not the person that you spoke to.

[239] Yeah.

[240] But yet she has a real voice.

[241] Like that's, I think that's probably, I don't know.

[242] I don't know a whole lot about like, yes, I've seen catfish the documentary and I've seen a few clips of the catfish TV show.

[243] But like, I don't know how common that is for people to connect with the person that was used as a prop to catfish them.

[244] True.

[245] And actually then build a friendship with the real person.

[246] I don't know, Neve, if you're out there and you're listening and you have any input.

[247] because I know people get catfished all the time and I can't like if there was a romantic aspect to this my heart breaks for people that have had this happen to them the trauma that comes from comes out of having to heal not just from you know a fake friendship but a romantic relationship and they're being romantic feelings there oh my gosh but yeah it has been so healing even when I'm talking to my family or friends, I'll say, yeah, so real Kimmy said, blah, blah, blah.

[248] Yeah, I talk to real Kimmy and here's what's going on.

[249] And it's just been so amazing to see also how supportive she's been and she gets it.

[250] And I still, I know the story is so far -fetched that I really appreciate people that if they haven't been through this before and they listen to it and then they respond with, you know, understanding or compassion, I'm just like, thank you.

[251] I know how hard it is to, you know, swallow all this.

[252] I know how outside of most.

[253] people's scope of reality it is.

[254] So to be met with understanding and support means a lot.

[255] I remember going back because I know that you can reverse search images on Google.

[256] I had tried it.

[257] And the day that, you know, on Mother's Day last year, when everything came down and I realized that I was being catfished, I did find one photo that was a stock photo online.

[258] He had slipped up with just that one that I don't think it ever appeared on their social media accounts.

[259] All of the other ones, I think, did.

[260] So that was the one that I found, but it wasn't specific.

[261] So when you say stock photo, can you explain what that?

[262] Like, it was a photo of real Kimmy and Brian?

[263] It was actually a photo of a wine glass on like a outside bistro table or something.

[264] And it was like this very highly edited, you know, sharply focused on just the wine glass, but you can tell people are out at this slinky dinner.

[265] There are, you know, string lights and a great view in the background.

[266] And even when it came through, when she apparently texted it to me and said, wish you guys could join us, I remember thinking, that's a pretty good photo for a go phone or your, you know, she kept saying this stupid phone bleep, bleep, you know, that I have.

[267] I hate that Brian has us on these dumb go phones.

[268] It's so annoying.

[269] I feel so limited.

[270] I wish we could FaceTime, girl, but I'm on this cheap, you know, phone because it doesn't work, blah, blah, blah.

[271] And I remember thinking, wow, that photo is really nice for such a stupid, cheap phone.

[272] And I knew it was, it felt fake.

[273] But I, you know, again, too late.

[274] You probably thought that she just used a fake photo.

[275] Yeah.

[276] Again, you thought they were the problem.

[277] Yeah, not him.

[278] You saw things that were like, you know.

[279] There were a couple photos, and I remember thinking, this is the day I am going to find this.

[280] I just had this gut knowing something's going to come of this because there are still things I haven't tried.

[281] And so I get on Google photos, and I'm reversed, and I was Googling, you know, how to reverse image search, how to look up IP addresses, all the stuff.

[282] And then I came across tin -I -t -I -N -E -Y, and I guess, you know, it said oldest, you know, image database in the world or something like that.

[283] And I picked this one photo that was very distinct of Real Kimmy, and I put it in there, and it came up with one link.

[284] And I remember my coworker coming running in, because she is all about this stuff.

[285] She's the person if you have a dramatic update, you tell her and the roof is going to blow off the building.

[286] And I was like, come here.

[287] We're like screaming, but also silent screaming and running around in circles.

[288] And I'm like flipping tables.

[289] And we click the link and it takes me right to her Instagram.

[290] And I knew just from the aesthetic, the colors, the editing style, the, you know, pictures of lions and being in Africa.

[291] all reality sunk in and I knew that I had found where he had gotten his photos.

[292] And then I scrolled way down and I saw the little girl and later, I think when I was on a roll, I ended up reverse searching that photo with the same database.

[293] And that's how I found the original and realized that he had cropped it, changed the coloring, lowered the quality to look more like a long distance FaceTime call, slapped his face on it.

[294] know, to look like it was the selfie side.

[295] Can you believe that he even sat there and made that expression, took the selfie, acting skills on point?

[296] That's what I think about.

[297] It's like, it's one thing to think, oh, somebody catfish, somebody, it's another thing to be like, sit down to you.

[298] No, you go, you go do that.

[299] You go do that to another human being with a, if you have a soul, and tell me that that's not just because it's something that happens a lot doesn't mean it's normal at all.

[300] And it's not easy to do.

[301] It takes commitment and work.

[302] Like, this guy had to put in hours to come up with everything, to come up with the stories, put in the order of the robe to Photoshop these things.

[303] Come up with stories?

[304] He named all their kids.

[305] He gave her middle name.

[306] Yeah.

[307] Kimberly Jane Powers.

[308] And the kids were, I remember one being Riker.

[309] And because it was unique.

[310] And I thought, did you copy?

[311] Because I have a friend who's a little boys named Riker.

[312] And I don't, I'm like, wait, did you recently hear their, you know, names?

[313] They had three kids and he named them all and they had apparently just adopted this new one from South Africa, which I know now, adoptions are closed in South Africa.

[314] Could have Googled that.

[315] Figured that out earlier.

[316] If you're investigating the person you're in a relationship with at the time you're in.

[317] Red flag.

[318] If you're investigating somebody you're with, run.

[319] I was watching a video.

[320] It was like, how to quickly identify.

[321] you know, a narcissist.

[322] And it said, number one, you're watching this video.

[323] That's amazing.

[324] And in the psychopath -free book, it says, like, any person that you feel the need to investigate is not somebody that should be in your life at all.

[325] Something's wrong.

[326] Something, somewhere.

[327] Can you talk a little bit about when you spoke with Real Kimmy that day, Veterans Day, and you learned about the robe?

[328] Oh, my gosh.

[329] It was toward the end of our conversation.

[330] and I was just kind of going into the details of how deep he went.

[331] And I even threw out, I felt awkward saying it, but I was like, well, yeah, he wrote me letters, he gave me a rope.

[332] And she kind of stopped me there.

[333] And she said something like, we sell robes.

[334] And I, like, choked and went, I'm sorry, what?

[335] Robs.

[336] And I said, well, it looked handmade.

[337] And the tag said Tanzania.

[338] And she said, no, we have a clothing line that is based in Tanzania.

[339] And I'm like, I thought I got it at World Market.

[340] And she right there gets on her computer and starts looking up orders.

[341] And she's asking me for the date and she couldn't find it.

[342] And I said, I think he gave it to me a few months in.

[343] It wasn't right away.

[344] It might have been, I mean, we got together September.

[345] We met September 14th and we were a thing a few days in.

[346] by the next week we were definitely a, you know, a thing.

[347] And then I think by December or January, it was pretty close to around when we were getting engaged and things were full speed ahead that he handed me the rope.

[348] And as she's on the computer, she says his full name and then quotes his address.

[349] And she said, yep, here's the order.

[350] It was put in on October 2nd, I think it was.

[351] And I just flipped.

[352] And she, that's when, I think maybe that's when it sunk in.

[353] you know, for her, too, that, okay, this was real.

[354] But then now my brain is going everywhere, thinking this was so early on, he was planning that far ahead.

[355] He had to have known that this thing would take weeks to come in from Africa.

[356] But, yeah, I still have it.

[357] And he asked me one day, and I remember when he handed it to me, things felt weird.

[358] It was super wrapped up.

[359] And he was just like, oh, yeah, here, this is from Kimmy and Brian.

[360] I remember thinking, did this come halfway across the world?

[361] This is awesome.

[362] Why are you more excited about, you know, handing this to me?

[363] And he was like, I don't know.

[364] I mean, they, you know, they wanted you to have it kind of thing.

[365] And then later when I opened it and it was gorgeous, he asked me weeks later, I think, about it.

[366] And he said, let me guess.

[367] It's not your style, is it, or something like that.

[368] And I was like, well, no, it's not that.

[369] It's just, I don't, I mean, I don't know where I would wear it.

[370] It's, you know, really unique.

[371] And no, it's not really my style.

[372] And I said, I mean, I don't, I'm not typically the person who puts on a robe after a shower.

[373] anyway, but I've saved it.

[374] I know exactly where it is.

[375] I'm going to keep it.

[376] And he just kind of was like, oh, yeah, figured as much.

[377] And he got kind of gruff about it.

[378] And things just felt weird.

[379] And I always felt weird about it, but I saved it.

[380] And the fact that he did it, he ordered it on October 2nd.

[381] And Kimmy and Brian were introduced to you around that same time.

[382] Yeah.

[383] A few weeks.

[384] Actually, yeah.

[385] I, shoot, I forget the exact date because I went back to our very first text.

[386] And it was the first week of October.

[387] And if he met me on the 14th he celebrated his ex -fiancee's birthday as usual on the 18th kept talking to her through october oh yeah was driving up to meet my parents to try to you know put their fears at ease and we were going on dates he was texting me as kimmy and brian he probably planning the letters who knows and on twitter you always got to throw twitter in there because it fills in all the gaps he really does tweet a lot a lot a lot yeah that's I don't know why that just was so crazy to me about the robe because it's like he was creating almost like a backup plan yeah some kind like if you found real Kimmy yeah like what was the point wouldn't that be a giveaway wouldn't like wouldn't you I was just like what is that like what if I looked up but the thing is the robe doesn't have anything on it that gives away the company or the nonprofit or you know anything because i remember trying i looked it over and it i think it it's i can't remember what it says on the tag now i used to know but nothing that i could google that that i could type in and look for and i did and i even looked through world markets stock of clothing online just to see if they had anything similar and they didn't so then i kind of thought oh okay well maybe it's not you know in stock anymore but i just assumed that that's that's where he got it but i don't know what his strategy was behind that.

[388] I think he was just doing, going above and beyond to do everything he could very early on to solidify my idea of what was going on.

[389] And he didn't think much past that.

[390] Obviously, he didn't think past the wedding because I remember asking him, knowing it was a stupid question.

[391] The week we, I called everything off, sitting on the couch in our house in Sacramento, trying to get that second confession out of him, I remember saying, saying, so when were you planning on telling me this, knowing I'm not going to get, you know, a real answer, knowing he's probably going to say exactly what he ended up saying, oh, this week, this week.

[392] And I said, the week of our wedding.

[393] You were planning on choosing the week before our wedding to tell me that you had made fake personalities.

[394] No. But now he's doing everything he can to get out of it.

[395] Just like a kid, you know, you catch the kid lying or doing something and then you say, what were you thinking doing that?

[396] I don't know.

[397] When are you planning on telling me right now?

[398] Exactly.

[399] That's what it felt like.

[400] Well, and sociopaths lie so frequently, there's very such a rare time that they're actually telling the truth that it's such a practice skill for them, that the type of like stress in our normal brain that we project onto them because we're thinking from our, you know, our bias and our lens is like how stressful that would be for us.

[401] To maintain.

[402] To maintain.

[403] Or how stressful it would be for us to come clean or how stressful it would be for us to have a lie like that and to sleep at night.

[404] But for them, it's not a big deal.

[405] True.

[406] And that's why they can stay so calm and it's so chilling and it can be so nonchalant because they don't have anxiety.

[407] Sociopaths do not feel anxiety.

[408] I mean, sociopathy is like a spectrum like anything else, you know, like there, you can be a sociopath and still have some empathy or you can be a psychopath and have zero, you know, like, I feel like there's such a spectrum like most of things in life, but it's just like, it sends this, it's dangerous because it sends the signal to us, well, they're not freaking out about it.

[409] And if this wasn't true, they would be freaking out about it or they would be acting this way or they would behaving this way if they were trying to, but they don't.

[410] None of his reactions, even when he was getting called out, lined up with what I thought, you know, someone being accused of lying should be.

[411] And what was even weirder is now looking back, the only times that he was reacting and that his eyes were shifting and he wasn't looking at me was because he was thinking a million miles a second because he was getting, it was getting more and more difficult to lie to cover up the other lies and to come up with something that would satisfy me because I kept asking more questions.

[412] So I remember him looking, looking away, then looking back at me, looking down, looking back at me, and then eyes just kind of going everywhere.

[413] But it didn't feel like a kid that was caught.

[414] It felt like wheels were just spinning, you know, and there was smoke coming out.

[415] He was trying to think so fast.

[416] It was like, um, um, um.

[417] Oh my gosh.

[418] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[419] I'm Sachi Cole.

[420] And I'm Sarah Haggy.

[421] And we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once the facade falls away.

[422] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit followed by Larry King and no real product to push.

[423] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[424] The infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Judici, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[425] Follow Scam Fluencers on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[426] You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad -free right now on Wondry Plus.

[427] So I've shared with you a little bit about my biological father has the antisocial personality disorder.

[428] And he's a sociopath.

[429] He did end up in the legal system multiple times.

[430] Like we have no contact.

[431] but one time when he was in court, he faked a heart attack to get out of going to jail that day and threw himself on the ground.

[432] Oh, my gosh.

[433] So that they had to take him in an ambulance to the hospital instead of the jail.

[434] Oh, my gosh.

[435] Because he got stuck, like you're saying.

[436] When they can't come up with an answer, they'll physically do something like that.

[437] Yes, that was his way out.

[438] To be like, leave.

[439] Yeah.

[440] it's like when your roommate said he's thinking yeah or she's thinking yeah whatever that's what they do well and knowing now like my ex's crazy emotional reactions to things and looking back over other people that my family and I have known that have the same traits they can turn emotions on like a switch they can just flip it and all of a sudden the waterworks are happening like when my you know my mom mentioned when she anyway when they gave us money or telling us how much money they're going to give us for the wedding sure I cried like I was shocked but he was was like his face twisted it was like I need to have a response now yep he's like go go gadget emotions it would just boom and I remember when we were first dating and we'd be like cuddling on the couch watching a movie or something and all of a sudden I think he's he's crying right now half of me would think oh give me a break and the other half was like how broken are you that just sitting and watching a movie together means this much like it's it's a little much it's like I have to show that there's depth to me though and I have to I have to show the emotion when it's a socially appropriate emotion so that it's not weakness also I talked to your mom after meeting with them and she told me a story one time about him gifting a knife to your dad and it was engraved I remember this yeah yeah and he said that they had this family tradition where all the men in their family were given these special knives and acted like it was so expensive yeah like without saying it your mom was like you know when somebody like gives you something and they like the way they present it makes you feel like this is a very expensive gift and that I am giving to you you're welcome yeah like there is a lot there is a lot of weight around this moment right now I present to you with you know the family heirloom gift and then they looked it up right on Amazon yeah so your dad was like had this weird feeling well I think it was more just like curiosity.

[441] Like how much did he spend on this?

[442] Yeah, I remember that.

[443] Yeah, and I remember.

[444] Don't look it up.

[445] Yeah, and your mom said the same thing.

[446] She was like, I told him, don't look it up.

[447] Like, that's a ghost or something.

[448] Like, don't do that.

[449] And so he was curious.

[450] So he put the serial number in, and it was a $12 knife from Amazon Prime Now.

[451] And I'm like, the engraving costs more than the knife I go.

[452] Yeah, I was to say he probably took it to things remembered in the ball.

[453] He probably has an engraving machine in his dungeon.

[454] in his dungeon.

[455] He probably has like a dungeon that he just does all the printing letters and God knows what else.

[456] Oh my.

[457] I forgot about that and I remember even thinking, Dad, come on, you know, it's...

[458] What did you think when you found it was $12?

[459] I don't think I found it out to a little bit later, but I think...

[460] Oh, because they probably didn't want to like tell you that.

[461] Right.

[462] I don't think...

[463] Because it seems like your dad is not being thankful for this nice gift.

[464] Well, and that they don't trust him.

[465] Like, guys, come on.

[466] Stop trying to find, you know, anywhere you look.

[467] If you're constantly looking for dirt, you're going to find it.

[468] That was kind of my idea.

[469] And I think that's also why she didn't tell me that she did a background check because she didn't want me thinking that they don't trust him.

[470] But the week that everything went down and I went and got the ring appraised and all that stuff, that's when she was like.

[471] It was real.

[472] It was real.

[473] And it was huge, right?

[474] It was like two carrots or something.

[475] It was, I think, well, with the halo and in the end, it was like, he said it was 1 .52.

[476] But when I took it into a jeweler, he didn't do an official appraisal.

[477] He just did a quick look over.

[478] but he kind of raised his eyebrows and went yeah it's real i would guess that something like this would cost around and then he told me the amount that i was told he paid for it which was barely under 10 grand so he said that that was legit um there was something else that i was going to say too i think it was with well and he tried to make it like well i had to get you the ring you wanted there was all this drama around the ring and apparently according to his ex -fiance there was tons of drama around hers too.

[479] Did she have a big rate?

[480] She said hers was like the cost of a car.

[481] It was massive.

[482] And they got into big fights about it all the time because her ring was insane.

[483] She said she knows that he spent like twice at least, or plenty more than he spent on mine.

[484] He spent on hers and which was why he was really adamant about getting that back from her after they broke up.

[485] And she was obviously going, of course, take it.

[486] And they would get in fights over.

[487] She, He didn't want her to wear it while doing dishes, while showering and stuff like that, because the soap would damage it.

[488] And then he would get really upset because sometimes she would forget to put it back on after doing dishes.

[489] So they'd be out and he'd say, why aren't you wearing your ring?

[490] And she'd say, well, you got mad at me. Okay, I took it off, but I'm sorry, I forgot to put it back on.

[491] This is really, this is a lot of responsibility right now.

[492] And with mine, we, there was a day that we spent in San Francisco and he must have taken me to like six different places to figure out what I wanted because I had had an idea of what I wanted.

[493] But once I put it on and saw it on my hand, I went, oh, no, I don't like that.

[494] And I didn't want something too big.

[495] But he kind of, it turned into like, let's be real.

[496] You know, you want that big rock.

[497] And Kimmy was kind of in on it.

[498] Like, girl, go for the big rock.

[499] Mine is two carrots and that's ridiculous.

[500] So don't go that big.

[501] You know, it kind of falls off your hand.

[502] But, you know, make him pay and all this like contradicting stuff.

[503] And I just remember a lot of guilt being around it.

[504] And sure, I like pretty things, but I, practically speaking, even if he could afford it, I don't want a huge rock on my hand because I'm going to constantly be scared of knocking it against things or someone seeing it when I'm out in, you know, downtown because I live in, you know, midtown.

[505] I don't want this massive, you know, rock hanging off my hand.

[506] And you love to travel.

[507] Yeah, that was the other thing.

[508] It's something you're going to have to leave at home and get a fake one to where, you know, like a lot of people will just get a simple band or whatever when they travel.

[509] That was the first thing I thought of, too, was if I have a big ring, I'm just going to wear my band if I travel.

[510] But it was, no, we're going to get you what you have to have what you want.

[511] You have to have what you want because you'll resent it later.

[512] And I'm thinking, resent, did I say those words ever?

[513] And then I thought, well, okay, if you're going to force me into this, then sure, I like Rose Gold.

[514] Or sure, I like this feature.

[515] You know, yeah, I would love for the band to be engraved.

[516] I think, like, the kind of antique or vintage look is cool.

[517] and then there was, I mean, we went to this little jeweler shop in Alameda and then we were everywhere in San Francisco.

[518] And then he was telling me this big long story of this like fight he got in back and forth with the company that we originally chose and how they were sending him, you know, these sketches of it.

[519] And he was like, I'm a designer and I know that that's a template.

[520] That's not custom.

[521] I asked for one thing.

[522] And I remember thinking, why is everything?

[523] I don't think my life had this much conflict in it before we met.

[524] Maybe I'd just really been that sheltered or had things that good that my life was just drama free.

[525] But now we can't get a ring.

[526] We can't go to the store.

[527] We can't do anything without there being some huge drama or even like him telling me, oh yeah, that guy at the gym was totally checking you out.

[528] And I went up and told him what was up.

[529] And I was like, what?

[530] Don't do that.

[531] If someone's going to stare, don't pick a fight.

[532] It's just, get done and go home, you know.

[533] But I guess he, like, looked at this big guy and was like, hey, next time you do that, you're going to regret it, I guess, because he was checking me out.

[534] Now I'm looking back on all these scenarios thinking, you really did it?

[535] No. No. Also, all he does is fight with people on Twitter.

[536] Like, so much of it is either like, oh, Bubba, I love you, like, you're the best.

[537] Or it's like, oh, you think you know about design, bro?

[538] I know.

[539] Oh, you think my, you've never, I'm just buried in, I don't know, just all this stupid tech bro stuff that's like, he just goes on there to fight.

[540] with people.

[541] He picks fights.

[542] And again, and I want to say that's a contradiction.

[543] If you truly are a follower of Christ, you will not cause conflict everywhere you go.

[544] That was the, like, that is not, you know, Jesus's ammo.

[545] Yeah, I mean, he, he uses the whole thing of Jesus flip tables.

[546] I'm like, one time, one time.

[547] But otherwise, he brought peace places.

[548] So if you're picking on perfectly innocent people and riling things up, that's a red flag.

[549] But yeah, I remember one time we're walking down the street in Midtown and I we walked by you know a few girls that were just out or whatever and one of them called me a name she and this never ever like a random homeless person no it was like a bunch of teenage girls maybe in the early 20s just out walking around midtown maybe like day drinking or something and they looked you know like a little bit rough kind of mean girlie but you know kind of the mean girls on drugs and it looked like there'd been you know, they got in some cat fights.

[550] There's some scratches and everything.

[551] And so we're, we're just walking down the sidewalk.

[552] I'm probably holding the hands.

[553] I'm mind of my own business.

[554] We're on our way to get coffee or a snack or something.

[555] And I heard, as we passed, I heard one of them say something about, they called me a bitch or something and said that they were, like I was picking a fight and that I or both of us was like looking at them kind of and asking for it.

[556] But this is the example of what was following us everywhere.

[557] It was like this cloud of drama followed him and it was associated with him because I am the least conflict oriented.

[558] Like, I run from conflict.

[559] I will lay down so that everything can just go snice, you know, just everything, be peaceful.

[560] Especially with strangers.

[561] Yeah.

[562] Like that is so not your personality.

[563] Like, did he shoot them a look?

[564] Did he do it?

[565] I bet that's what looking back, I'll bet he did.

[566] And we would be hanging out with friends and he would claim that one guy friend was constantly looking at me or something.

[567] Like, he was always, and come to find out later, which I see this now, another friend of ours said, I kind of felt like he was flirting with me, but I didn't know, you know, I assumed everything was fine and I didn't want to read into it.

[568] And I'm like, don't feel weird telling me that now, because he probably was, you're cute.

[569] And I know.

[570] And he could have been bored.

[571] His high operating brain was bored, you know.

[572] Oh, yeah.

[573] He constantly needed attention.

[574] You know, well, there's a reason why it's called antisocial personality disorder.

[575] because, you know, that's common.

[576] I mean, from my experience, it's like, me against the world.

[577] Everywhere you go is a fight.

[578] You have to push your way to the front of the line.

[579] You have to like, those people are going to start a fight with you.

[580] That person's going to get you.

[581] Everyone's out to get you.

[582] And it's just like drama all the time.

[583] And like you said, it's like if you're not used to living your life like that, it's like, what is happening right now?

[584] Well, yeah.

[585] And he used to talk about how people would him all the time in the design world or someone needed to pay.

[586] him for some work that they had hired him for and that they weren't paying him because they claimed that he didn't do the job he was hired for and he really did and I remember like when we were in Colorado driving around he went to go pick up a check from somebody and there was a lot of tension and conflict and drama around getting paid for something that apparently his client claimed that he didn't do the job that he'd been hired for and even in the moment I remember thinking babe maybe you need to look at this from their perspective did you actually do what you were paid or are you now just demanding money and you didn't actually follow through to the level that you said you would?

[587] I even doubted my own fiancé in the moment and now looking back, I feel terrible because I will bet you anything.

[588] He was an ass to a lot of people and got paid for things or jipped people on things that, you know, I was completely unaware of.

[589] He seems to really overshoot his abilities.

[590] I mean, obviously he's been in a lot of like high top tech companies, but like online there's like a lot of chatter on his Twitter like bro where's your portfolio like people asking him like who are you like because he'll like reach out and he'll attack somebody on Twitter and then they'll look at his profile and they'll be like who are you what have you done?

[591] Who the F are you?

[592] Well I would like to know if anybody knows who designed the Vogue app because he told me in no uncertain terms that he did that and in fact I think I have it in text so I could show that he told me that he did it and I downloaded it and looked over it and it's obviously gorgeous and I even told friends like I have friends roommates my family that could tell me oh yeah I remember you telling me oh my gosh you guys download the Vogue app right now if you don't have it because this is his work also we were in Sephora and the way that he I believed him because the way the terminology he used was just so effortless but he pointed at urban decays branding and you know that like the kind of the strips that are under all of the product that give the swatches and the prices and the names of everything.

[593] He said he designed those that he is responsible for that layout and I wish to God that I could remember what that is called because if I see or hear the word because it wasn't an N cap it was in the actual aisle like that plastic piece that you slide in and it'll say like the prices and stuff yes and it'll be like this palette and here's the pictures and stuff like that.

[594] And you see the swatches of lipstick.

[595] Yeah.

[596] You know, and he even, there was a word for, he said, I'm glad they finally decided to do like a different type of color swatch because it's more real, like true to life.

[597] And there was a word for that apparently too.

[598] And he said, oh, they finally blah, blah, blah.

[599] Like I was, you know, those idiots, I was trying to get them to do that.

[600] But I think he told his ex -fiance that he did a lot of Urban Decays branding too.

[601] But he would tell me all the time that I could get discounts on, like, Do you say, is it Athleta?

[602] Oh, yeah.

[603] He said that he could get me discount.

[604] You name the brand and he had somebody that would get me discounts.

[605] And I remember, actually, I did.

[606] I think these pants I'm wearing right now, he contacted somebody and I ended up getting like 10 % off or 20 % off.

[607] I remember thinking, oh, what do they do?

[608] He said he used to get naked pallets for like five cents.

[609] And he, but it was like a. Why would you pay five cents though?

[610] No, I know.

[611] I know.

[612] They would just give it to you.

[613] Exactly.

[614] But it was always like, oh, too bad.

[615] I barely missed that window.

[616] We're back in the day, I could have gotten all this urban decay stuff, all this free stuff from keels, I guess.

[617] Yeah, and he used their midnight recovery eye cream.

[618] So he loved, because it was a big entertainment point that he would use, like, in telling people, oh, yeah, I know how to do that.

[619] You use your ring finger because it's the most gentle and you pat it on.

[620] Well, sociopaths are traditionally very, worried about their outside appearance.

[621] That makes sense.

[622] It's one of their tools in their toolbox.

[623] Yeah.

[624] So, yeah.

[625] Tattoos.

[626] He's like really into tattoos and talking about tattoos on his Twitter too.

[627] Yeah.

[628] Yeah, really into the Christian tattoos especially, I guess.

[629] Like, I think right after we broke up, he got a tattoo that said ransomed.

[630] Ransomed?

[631] Ransomed.

[632] Oh.

[633] On his arm?

[634] It is.

[635] And one thing I always wanted to know was shortly after we got together, he got...

[636] What does that mean?

[637] What does that mean?

[638] I think he's referring to...

[639] Christianity and the Bible talks about God has ransomed us from death and like that's like salvation is you know we have been ransomed so but it was still it was vague it was like I don't know I mean I guess I can't separate it from what I know of him now so as soon as I saw it I was just like come on but shortly after we got together he said that he was going to get a tattoo he had wanted a, like a fur tree on his arm and done in stippling.

[640] And he had this friend that contacted him.

[641] That's a tattoo artist.

[642] She's female.

[643] And she calls him up out of nowhere.

[644] It says, hey, friend, I'm going to be in town.

[645] I want to do this for you.

[646] And this is where he went into, you know, spiritual or like Christianese.

[647] So those that aren't Christian are not going to know a thing of what I'm talking about.

[648] But she said, I feel like you have been in a desert season for a long time.

[649] and that is coming to a close.

[650] You are coming out of it.

[651] And I want to give you, I want to, you know, do this piece for you for free to kind of symbolize that.

[652] So he went in the base somewhere and met up with her and she did this gorgeous stippling piece on her, on his arm.

[653] And it just hit me a couple weeks ago.

[654] I thought, I wonder what, where he actually went to get that.

[655] If there even was a phone call.

[656] If there was even a girl around it.

[657] Or if he just went and paid someone a couple hundred bucks and had it done?

[658] Yeah, he probably walked into Hate and Ashbury.

[659] I mean, did you artists in the Bay are amazing.

[660] Whenever Kimmy would talk about friends of his, most of the time it was through Kimmy.

[661] Old co -workers, like people that he worked with, whenever they were talking about females, they were always randomly super pretty, really talented, and crushing it is kind of the way he would put it.

[662] And they were badass.

[663] They were making tons of money in design or art or whatever they were doing.

[664] and it was always like that.

[665] And I remember the day, a couple weeks before our wedding, I went to urgent care because I was really sick at work.

[666] And my friend was also...

[667] Did he pass out?

[668] Yeah.

[669] I had what I now know is syncope where...

[670] But it was weird because it was several minutes after I had had my blood drawn, but I guess at the side of blood or needles, you know, as you can freak out.

[671] I felt fine.

[672] I felt fine.

[673] But I had this weird episode that kind of reminded me of a little bit of like a seizure where I was struggling because when I came to, my shoe was half off my foot, my phone was face down on the ground, which had previously been on the counter in my hand.

[674] I had had my arm resting on a table to support myself because I felt lightheaded.

[675] And I remember struggling.

[676] And then when I finally came to, my neck was on fire and my hands were tingling really, really, really hard.

[677] And I know that, you know, the nerves that are in your hand start in your neck.

[678] But anyway, when all of that was going down, he drove all the way up to Sacramento instead of calling my parents who were 20 minutes away, you know, to drive me home or anything.

[679] And Kimmy was giving me grief via text during this whole thing saying, just please tell me that you didn't text one of your friends about what just happened and then send screenshots to your fiancé because he's secondary, which was exactly what I had done.

[680] because my friend is also acting office manager at my job.

[681] So she's the one who said, go to urgent care.

[682] Get out of here.

[683] Something's wrong.

[684] So she's asking me for updates while I'm sitting at urgent care.

[685] I wake up from one of the scariest experiences I've ever had.

[686] So obviously I'm texting her back saying, um, um, I don't know what just happened.

[687] So in my stress and panic, rather than re -explain the whole thing to my fiancee, who is on the freeway and traffic coming up from the bay, I just screenshot the text I sent to my best friend.

[688] sent it to him, keeping him in the loop.

[689] And I've got Kimmy saying, well, for God's sake, tell me that your fiance, who's driving three hours in traffic to get to you right now, isn't just getting screenshots.

[690] I should have known then that it was him.

[691] But you know, then I did have suspicions that it was him, but I couldn't.

[692] You know, it was just too far -fetched.

[693] But anyway, yeah, I did have this crazy experience and he was guilting me for it.

[694] So that night, he shows up at my apartment and he stays, I think, for the weekend just to make sure that I'm okay.

[695] This happened on a Monday, and I have Tuesdays off from work, so he stayed with me. Wasn't this supposed to be like his first day of his new job too?

[696] It was in the first week.

[697] Or something like that?

[698] The first day or the first week of his new job.

[699] I felt terrible.

[700] Yeah, I even said, do not come.

[701] You're like, you're going to lose your job.

[702] We're trying to get married.

[703] Like, please don't leave.

[704] Like, that's how I would feel.

[705] Yeah, I tried.

[706] I could even go back in the text saying, no, no, no, no, no, you know, I'm fine.

[707] My roommate was even offering to come get me and take me home and stay with me. and my parents would be more than, you know, you know they would have driven up in a heartbeat.

[708] And of course it was, not only was he not going to allow it, but he made me, well, Kimmy, made me feel guilty for it.

[709] But then later that night, she was saying, have him call his ex.

[710] And I don't think I'll name his other ex in this.

[711] I don't even know if she's real.

[712] But I guess he dated someone years ago that is, I didn't know how many professional levels of nurse there are, but I guess she's all of them.

[713] Of course.

[714] Oh, so this is a different X. Yes.

[715] Kimmy was saying, oh, reach out to his other X that we don't know of.

[716] Correct.

[717] Does the X that we do know of, know of this person?

[718] That's a good question.

[719] I've never asked her.

[720] Interesting.

[721] I should.

[722] I guess she studied under someone big and she got offered this big job.

[723] And I guess she really broke his heart back in Colorado when she got offered her dream job somewhere else and said, come with me. And he had, for some reason, just gotten a new job or couldn't move.

[724] something and she chose her job her dream job offer over him i guess they'd lived together for a couple years i think this was before christianity in his life and before he met his ex -fiance so this was pre like 2010 i think he lived with this girl for a couple years according to kimmy keep in mind she this ex left him for her dream job so nobody had broken him as deeply as this girl had because she had prioritized a job over him and he had given everything for her.

[725] So now that night, you know, fast forward to, we're both at my home and I'm like folding clothes, putting them in my dresser trying not to move a whole lot because I still feel a little bit lightheaded and I was getting these terrible headaches.

[726] And he was on my bed on his phone researching what I could have, what I should do.

[727] And then Kimmy was texting me at that same time saying, tell him to call.

[728] so and so.

[729] He won't want to do it, but she is the only person that would know, like, what to do.

[730] She's the perfect person for this right now.

[731] And it'll kill him to talk to her.

[732] But he'll do it for you because that's how desperate the situation is right now.

[733] So then he, I tell him, I'm like, Kimmy's saying to call her and he goes, fine.

[734] And he's just super flat, super business mode, kind of like blunt, keeping his face down at his phone.

[735] And he makes a phone call.

[736] He calls somebody and he sits.

[737] there on my bed and he says yeah and he says her name and he asks for her he said yeah so and so please and I'm waiting and I'm watching him and there are a couple seconds go by and then he goes hey yep yep I'm good okay so I have a question for you yep this is how it's going to be and I thought this is how it's going to be so you're talking to your ex that you haven't talked to in years you're calling her with a question about your current fiancé a medical question So I guess she's saying, oh, this is how it's going to be.

[738] He didn't have her on speaker?

[739] Nope.

[740] Yes, fucker.

[741] She was never on the phone.

[742] I know it now.

[743] I know it now.

[744] But, oh, he must have loved that.

[745] He was acting.

[746] He was faking a whole phone call.

[747] And he described my symptoms.

[748] And then he goes, yep.

[749] No, he didn't even get into my symptoms.

[750] He said, yep, yep.

[751] Yeah, tomorrow's fine.

[752] Okay.

[753] Okay, bye.

[754] still doesn't look up at me, just puts his phone down, stays on his computer.

[755] And I'm like, how'd that go?

[756] Feeling super uncomfortable for being the reason that he, I even, Kimmy said that he said or the ex said that she would be happy to like look at pictures because I had this reaction that was on my arms, I think.

[757] And I had like really high histamine levels and I had something going on in my throat.

[758] And they were like, she would, she said she'd be happy to take a look, you know, at a picture.

[759] And I went, yeah, thank you, but I'm not going to send a picture of a rash in my throat to my fiance's ex -girlfriend.

[760] I don't care if she's the most world -renowned doctor that has ever lived.

[761] No, thank you.

[762] But when he got off the phone, I was like, how'd that go?

[763] And he said, oh, she's going to call me tomorrow.

[764] And I went, then why did she even leave what she was doing to answer the phone and talk to you if she didn't plan on taking any time for you?

[765] She didn't leave whatever, you know, OR she was in.

[766] to take a phone from her ex to say, I'll call you tomorrow, knowing that it was you.

[767] And I didn't word it exactly like that, but I was like, babe, that makes no sense.

[768] And he goes, yeah, I don't know.

[769] But what she did say is, and then he told me that she said to stop using essential oils, which cracks me up, and to drink lots of water and to take a Benadryl before bed, which was exactly, so the nurse in the urgent care that I had went to said, I'm sorry, this is almost she was I read between the lines basically she was like this is above my pay grade I don't know what's going on with you take some Benadryl drink some water call me if anything else happens and I'll call my supervisor she didn't say anything about oils so I had already told my ex that so he knew all that so now he's saying that his ex says take Benadryl before bed drink lots of fluids stop ingesting essential oils because now he also had this weird thing about being sarcastic around oils Or I'm like, look, I know the stereotype attached to people that believe in oils.

[770] I have a sense of humor.

[771] I get it.

[772] It doesn't bother me. I used to be that person that was skeptical.

[773] It's just another thing you love that he doesn't want you to have.

[774] And how convenient is it that he, the day that he's mad because you screenshot at him and he's using Kimmy, again, using women as a prop to facilitate his anger and his rage.

[775] And then he pulls out an ex -girlfriend out of his pocket.

[776] that he's calling out to an OR to make you feel like, oh, well, my ex -girlfriend, who's so knowledgeable.

[777] I mean, it's just, it's like now he's accomplishing so many things with that phone call to diminish you.

[778] The day that Kimmy made comments about me needing to lose weight before the wedding was the same day that she and I had been kind of having like girl talk or whatever, and we were talking about past relationships, just jokingly.

[779] And I told her that I, for some reason, I don't know why we were talking.

[780] about first crushes or something, and I said something about always being attracted to darker skin guys.

[781] And my first crush...

[782] I heard that, girl.

[783] Oh, tall, dark and handsome.

[784] Amen.

[785] And I think my first crush in kindergarten was this Mexican kid.

[786] He got, he got kind of mad.

[787] It said, I remember Kimmy said, I don't trust your judgment anymore.

[788] That's right.

[789] And I thought, when I read that, I thought, that's when it got mean.

[790] How racist of you.

[791] Yeah.

[792] First of all, and it doesn't, makes sense for real Kimmy to be racist.

[793] I'll leave it at that.

[794] I never thought of that.

[795] I don't trust your judgment anymore.

[796] Go F yourself.

[797] That's what I thought.

[798] Oh my gosh.

[799] That means so much.

[800] And also fake Brian also used the N word.

[801] That's right.

[802] In some of the texts.

[803] In a lot of his texts with my ex.

[804] And keep in mind, I don't know if I mentioned this, that he was texting himself as Brian.

[805] So he was having back and forth conversations with him and himself, then taking screenshots, then sending them to me. And the language that was used in these conversations.

[806] Disgusting.

[807] I mean, racial slurs.

[808] Saying the R word, which is a major.

[809] And not just once or twice, but it constant.

[810] Just, yeah.

[811] So there was a lot of language that I was like found very upsetting going through all the screenshots and stuff between the fake conversations.

[812] But yeah, the fact that he sat there just.

[813] chilling, texting himself back and forth.

[814] And so much of it is complimentary, too.

[815] Like, you're the best dog.

[816] You're my N -word.

[817] He was using Brian and Kimmy to put himself on a pedestal.

[818] I think he kind of got some kicks from it.

[819] He's texting himself back and forth thinking, hmm, I kind of like this.

[820] This might be a new thing.

[821] Seriously.

[822] And then Brian would switch into this prayer.

[823] And I, there was even one time where he, Brian, he would always call me kid.

[824] He would say, hey, kid.

[825] I know that there's a lot of, frustration and thought from you.

[826] There might be a lot of speculation from you around the idea of like Kimmy and my like issues and our marriage and how that might affect our ability to pray for you and hear from the Lord for you and things like that and just know that we're working on things and we're not perfect and I don't want that to you know hinder you from you know when we pray for you and things like that.

[827] And I knew that that was, there was something super messed up about that because I had just been telling my ex, how can people that are so apparently severely dysfunctional in their own marriage give wisdom to somebody else who's seeking wisdom on their future marriage?

[828] And how can they hear clearly, you know, how I don't know if I really want these people sharing their prayers for me. Because I don't want what I see in their life, obviously.

[829] I don't want their marriage.

[830] I don't want the distrust that they obviously have.

[831] I don't want the body.

[832] shaming issues that they have with each other, I never want to feel like I need to take my husband's phone and look through it, ever.

[833] So I should have seen all that, you know, in the middle of it.

[834] And then, of course, I get this text from Brian.

[835] Hey, it's been on my heart.

[836] This bitch.

[837] Using, again, using God.

[838] Using God as a prop.

[839] Using Christianity and spirituality as a prop.

[840] Hey, it's just been super randomly, spiritually on my heart lately.

[841] that you might have a hard time, maybe kind of sort of just guessing, have a hard time hearing what we have to say because it's through the lens of the difficulties that we've faced in our own marriage.

[842] And I don't want that, you know, to hinder you.

[843] Like, that's not okay, basically.

[844] Again, get ahead of the narrative.

[845] Getting ahead.

[846] And I thought, how'd you know?

[847] I thought that they were in, I mentioned this before, like in cahoots.

[848] I thought that they were talking and that, you know, if somebody usually is going to talk about someone behind, their back, they're probably talking about you behind their back too.

[849] So if Kimmy is willing to spill secrets to me...

[850] 100%.

[851] She's spilling my secrets to him.

[852] And that's why I was careful from day one.

[853] Even though I was open and vulnerable with her, I didn't share anything that I would never want to get back to him.

[854] Because I knew it would get back to him.

[855] And that's what I thought.

[856] I thought, you a bunch of liars.

[857] It never occurred to me that she wasn't real at all.

[858] Until one day I noticed that they kept using the same...

[859] She would use the same typo.

[860] She would spell...

[861] She would say, take deep breaths.

[862] she would spell breath like you spell breathe and it drove me crazy just like the grammar nazi I know and I couldn't read it correctly and I would always kind of laugh at myself because I'd read it and I'd be like deep breaths deep breaths but he had the same typo and I thought and how close was that to the wedding oh this was a couple months I think it was just before engagement It was fair.

[863] You know, if I'm really looking back, it was probably maybe only a month or two in that I noticed some similarities in the way they talked, but it was still pretty different.

[864] And then come engagement, that's really when just so much happened, so much changed.

[865] And he started to get, he started to slip up.

[866] There would be more typos in the text, which he knows my love for writing.

[867] I don't care if they're typos.

[868] I don't judge someone.

[869] But I notice now, even in tweets, in replies to my texts, if I'm calling him out for something, like the times that I've texted saying hey pay me back you know stuff like that there are lots more typos than there used to be but again it's part of him trying to fit trying to be whatever he thought i wanted him to be and shortly after engagement i would notice that they would both use the word bubba they would both spell breath breathe there were certain things and one time i even said i told him that she talks a lot like him and i was watching him pretty carefully to see his reaction because part of me did think i mean I love true crime stories too and I thought what if she's him what if he's her and I did cross my mind one day really yeah and I just thought bah ha ha you need to calm down you know you need to go stop watching dateline but I did think maybe it's him and we were in the gym working out one day and I got a text from her and I replied and his Apple Watch dinged and I stopped for a second and thought it could be a coincidence it could be a coincidence and I watched him but he was so smooth about all of it and we were on later we were on two different machines and I tested it and I texted Kimmy back and I watched him and he did not like do anything he didn't look at his phone he didn't look at his watch or anything and I found out later I think you can schedule I think I think you can actually schedule text to be sent out with certain programs yeah but all that to say yeah it did occur to me scheduling text right world is a scary place like it is so set up for someone like him to succeed to a certain degree.

[870] Five minutes until I have to leave.

[871] Okay.

[872] Time flies when you're talking dick.

[873] But I wanted to talk about the fact that Real Kimi and Brian sent a letter from a lawyer.

[874] Can we talk about that?

[875] Yeah.

[876] I mean, I'm not going to read it or anything.

[877] Yeah, they're cease and desist letter.

[878] So they sent a cease and desist letter to him Monday of this week.

[879] It's Thursday now.

[880] um so that has been sent and his only response was something like you know acknowledged acknowledged and in full compliance i think is what he said and and i remember real kimmy was like well at least he's chill about it and i just laugh i laughed because i thought well sure it sounds you know whatever it's like i got the point she was making which was like at least he wasn't like you know firing back and making it worse for him you know everybody or whatever but i was thinking in my head what do you think when you're reading that letter because when I read the letter out loud to because she sent it to us and I read it out loud to Michael and we were just like laughing because how effing embarrassing is it that you get a letter that's like you create you use pictures of us and you created fake people and then you use those to like torture somebody and like you need to stop and then you have to think of what to write back yeah like that was almost worth it for sending the letter to me, the fact that he had to sit there and be like, what do I write back?

[881] Now, kids, keep your hands to yourselves.

[882] Like, that's what it felt like.

[883] It was just like the, I wonder if, I mean, maybe lawyers these days are used to those kinds of things.

[884] But to me, it's just the thought of having to write all that out.

[885] It's so petty.

[886] You use their likeness to create and then, you know, the things that you did.

[887] But just like how embarrassing I would feel.

[888] Of course, I don't think he feels anything because I don't think he, I don't think, you know, A lot of sociopaths don't feel embarrassed or stress of any kind.

[889] So I just thought that was, I mean, I'm happy they sent it because he should know, like, he should know that you can't do that.

[890] Yeah.

[891] And there are legal repercussions.

[892] Yep.

[893] And especially if you're on Twitter bragging about how you're suing, you know, or getting legal matters involved to take me and you out for the fake Twitter that I'm almost positive he created to out himself and get ahead of the narrative.

[894] But I digress.

[895] will be interesting to see I mean real Kimmy and Brian didn't want to participate in a podcast and a lot of people have asked me you know why hasn't this person are you going to interview this person or this person everyone is literally too afraid yeah which just is a great reminder of how brave you are because the thing is too he has it's not physical fear that people feel they're afraid of him hacking their webcam breaking into their online businesses getting into their bank accounts Like all of those real things, that's real fear.

[896] You know, I've had those thoughts.

[897] I back my stuff up.

[898] It seems crazy and like you're being paranoid, but it's really not.

[899] Oh, people do those things.

[900] But he, here's the thing, too, is he knows full well, and I have made it very clear to him, I am waiting.

[901] I'm watching the minute something is off, the minute anybody gets anything hacked into, stolen, the minute something is weird.

[902] It's done.

[903] It's over.

[904] I'm calling the cops.

[905] I'm giving them absolutely everything.

[906] Next time.

[907] It's just going to seem really difficult to believe, you know, but I'm pretty sure there's a lot that you don't know, and I feel like it's like my duty.

[908] I just feel protective of you.

[909] You need to be able to make an educated decision, and there's a lot that there's no way you know.

[910] Something Was Wrong is written, recorded, edited, and produced by me, Tiffany Reese.

[911] All of the music this season is by the band.

[912] Gladrags.

[913] A special thank you to Sarah, her family, and friends for participating in this series.

[914] Check out Sarah's personal blog, Space and Purpose, linked in the show notes.

[915] Thank you to Alyssa and Ryan Doyle for their time, support, and hype.

[916] Shout out to my husband Michael and our three amazing children, Jude, Ruby, and Ozzie, for cheering me on every step of the way.

[917] Subscribe now and follow the hashtag, Something Was Wrong Pod, on Instagram.

[918] If you like something was wrong and you're not a troll, please consider leaving a five -star review and sharing the podcast with any human you've ever met.

[919] We will soon be recording an AMA Q &A episode, and we'd love to hear your questions.

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[923] If you or someone you know is being abused, please contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1 -800 -799 safe.

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