Emmanuel Acho

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[3] Welcome, welcome, welcome to this beautiful bonus episode of Armchair Expert.

[4] I'm Dax Shepard.

[5] I'm joined by Monica Mouse.

[6] Hello.

[7] Hello.

[8] Very happy to be here on this bonus episode.

[9] Oh, I love bony episodes.

[10] Me too.

[11] They're the greatest.

[12] Now, today we have Emmanuel Acho.

[13] Emmanuel Acho is a former linebacker who played in the NFL for the Cleveland Browns and the Philadelphia Eagles and is currently working as an analyst for Fox Sports One.

[14] I encourage everyone to go to Uncomfortableconvos .com, which is where Emmanuel has some really hard conversations.

[15] And those videos are entitled, Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man. And he has a new book of the same title, Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man, I encourage everyone to search it out.

[16] We had a great time talking with a manual, so we hope you enjoy Manuel Ocho.

[17] On these bonus episodes, we love to support some of our favorite black -owned businesses.

[18] So today I'd like to tell you about a place called Soap Distillery.

[19] Soap Distillery is a small company founded by Danielle Martin in 2012.

[20] After teaching herself the ins and outs of soap making and cosmetic science, Danielle began making her own soap while drinking an old -fashioned during a conversation about San Diego.

[21] She came up with the idea to scent her products like cocktails.

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[23] Support soap distillery at their website, soap distillery .com.

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[25] Who are you supporting today, Monica?

[26] So it's the holidays, as you know.

[27] And it is a good opportunity to support some black -owned businesses and buying holiday gifts, which is what I'm going to do.

[28] I'm going to go to Post -21, which is a comprehensive marketplace that focuses on modern and design -forward products from Black -owned businesses.

[29] And a mother -daughter duo started it is awesome.

[30] So you can just go to their website, post -21 shop .com.

[31] That's P -O -S -T -2 -1 -S -H -O -P .com.

[32] And they curate.

[33] Exactly.

[34] It's kind of a one -stop shop.

[35] Love it.

[36] Party time Let's go What's up, people?

[37] Well, we're not normally early recorders, so I think this is only out of 260 -some interviews that we've done before 11 a .m. So get your expectations nice and low.

[38] Yo, I feel you.

[39] I'm not usually in early anything, but duty calls.

[40] Yeah.

[41] So what's your schedule like right now?

[42] You're obviously, you're busy with football.

[43] Yeah, man. Every day I host a daily show from 12 to 2 out here.

[44] And so every morning got a production call from like 7 to 9 a .m. to whole show run down.

[45] Then you do the show and then, you know, Zoom calls, talking to companies and just craziness.

[46] Yeah.

[47] So Emmanuel, just right out of the gates, I saw something interesting about your background.

[48] Both parents immigrated here, yeah?

[49] Yeah, both from Nigeria.

[50] And how old were they when they came over here?

[51] So mom and pops, they would have been roughly like 29 and like 25.

[52] Pops came over because he was a preacher.

[53] And so like these American evangelists saw him in Nigeria and were like, yo, come to America and start preaching.

[54] So he comes over, then mom comes over two years later.

[55] But when you come to the states, all your schooling, is essentially Nolan Voie in America.

[56] So mom had to go back to get her nurse practitioner's degree.

[57] Dad had to go back to get his PhD and the rest is history.

[58] Yeah, I've had a lot of cab rides from Russian guys who told me they were an oncologist or Dennis back in Russia.

[59] And that may or may not be true.

[60] I'm not sure.

[61] There's no way for me to know.

[62] It may or may not be true.

[63] And did you guys go straight to Texas?

[64] So my parents went to Liberty in Virginia.

[65] Okay.

[66] And then they had my older sister, she was born in Virginia, and then they moved to Dallas.

[67] And so the rest of the three siblings, me, my brother, my other sister, we're all from Dallas.

[68] So I was born and raised in Dallas, Texas.

[69] Which has a very specific culture, if I'm to believe Friday Night Lights.

[70] Yes.

[71] I would say that Texas in general, football and the Bible Belt and big hair.

[72] Like, that's what you're going to go from Texas.

[73] Yeah.

[74] How did your parents feel about you?

[75] pursuing football.

[76] I have to imagine it's so complicated.

[77] A, you're aware of the odds, I imagine, if you're a parent.

[78] You're maybe fearful of the safety, although not like we would be today.

[79] How supportive were they?

[80] Well, so in Nigeria, football is that black and white object that you kick, right?

[81] It's what we in America call soccer.

[82] And then also, you have to remember Nigerian culture.

[83] Nigerian culture, you must be a doctor, you must be a lawyer, you must be an engineer.

[84] Yeah.

[85] I went to this affluent all -white high school, private school from grades 5 through 12.

[86] It's lower school, middle school, and upper school.

[87] You're supposed to be like a national merit scholar.

[88] A person in the class above me won, you know, ESPN's national spelling bee.

[89] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[90] There was a kid named Cy Gunturie who went to my school, who won that in like eighth grade.

[91] A kid in my class got a perfect on the SAT and ACT.

[92] So I'm like underachiever galore at this all -boys, like, top.

[93] college prep school.

[94] But I ended up being 6 -2 -240 pounds.

[95] I was like, you know what?

[96] I guess I'll play football.

[97] Well, look, you're talking to Monica, who's first -generation Indian.

[98] So, you know, she too with her 4 .0 is a major underachiever.

[99] Major underachiever.

[100] Not number one through five in your class.

[101] You're a big loser.

[102] And the notion that she pursued acting instead of medicine.

[103] What a twist.

[104] What a shame.

[105] What a shame, Monnet.

[106] No, so my parents, they have to kind of like come on.

[107] board with this whole athlete thing.

[108] You're not, you don't, there's no NFL in Nigeria.

[109] There's, you know, the Nigerian football team, but there's no professional sports league.

[110] So my parents were all just kind of like going along for the ride with their two sons, because my older brother, he played in the league for nine years as well.

[111] Yeah, it's not a part of the conventional American dream.

[112] The conventional American dreams, I'm going to come here.

[113] I'm going to give my children this great educational opportunity and, and that's how they will rise.

[114] So yeah, I just can't imagine it was ever something they even considered.

[115] Yeah, absolutely.

[116] I mean, you got to think like they really were just trying to put us in the best educational position to succeed.

[117] My older sister went to a school called Hockaday, all -girls school.

[118] She was there from grade like seven to 12.

[119] Then me and my brother go to this super expensive private school.

[120] So my parents were all education, education, education.

[121] Like, my mom went back and got her doctorate at age like 52.

[122] No shit.

[123] Wow.

[124] Which is why I'm like, I can't underachee.

[125] I'm.

[126] I can't underachee.

[127] I I'm not allowed to.

[128] What were the doctorates in, if you don't mind my asking?

[129] So my dad has his Ph .D. in psychology, and my mom has her doctorate and nurse practice.

[130] Okay.

[131] They're all mental health, physical health.

[132] Yeah.

[133] I can't imagine anything more pleasurable to see than if they did get infected with Texas football and them being at the game and going berserk while you're playing.

[134] I just feel like that would be something I'd want to witness.

[135] There is nothing better than a hyped up Nigerian.

[136] and father.

[137] Go on, son, you go and get him.

[138] I'm like, there's just, there's nothing better than that.

[139] I wish he would have one of those football rattles, the soccer rattle.

[140] Man, there's nothing like it.

[141] My dad only missed one football game while I was at Texas, home or away.

[142] So out of probably 54 games, he only ever missed one.

[143] And I know he only ever missed one because he only ever missed one.

[144] Yeah, right, right.

[145] It's crazy how committed and dedicated my parents were to now just like, seeing us, me and my brother succeeded something else.

[146] They're like, okay, it's not academia.

[147] Fine.

[148] It's the NFL.

[149] Okay, so just really quickly, my father came to one game of mine, and I stole the ball basketball, and I ran down court, and I was in a full panic around half court, because it was just the cleanest breakaway imaginable.

[150] And then I laid it up from about six feet and didn't even hit the rim.

[151] shocked I hit the backboard and that was the one game so I think in his defense he's like I'm not coming back to see this no maybe he thought he thought I'm bad luck and I shouldn't call that's right he was doing you a favor I was just like oh my god he's here he's watching there's no fucking way I can make this layup all by myself dude but honestly sometimes nothing is worse than a breakaway layup by yourself oh like the plays that are too easy or the hardest to make Yeah, I would have rather tried to fucking throw it in from half court.

[152] I just want to add, so Monica, similarly, her, your dad got really in a cheer, right?

[153] Yeah, I was a cheerleader in high school.

[154] State champs, two -time state champ.

[155] Competition cheerleader.

[156] No big deal.

[157] Yeah, NBD.

[158] And there's some images of us winning that are really, uh, expressive.

[159] They're sweet.

[160] They're really sweet.

[161] He's in all the gear.

[162] He's holding a pom -pom, I think.

[163] Well, I just always try to compare it to like, I don't know.

[164] I try to think of myself.

[165] moving somewhere where there'd be a ton of culture shock, right?

[166] So I'm just trying to think of some crazy sport.

[167] I could, like, move my family to China and then watch my daughters do something good that's, you know.

[168] It would be like if you moved to India and they got into cricket.

[169] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[170] I wouldn't even know what a good play was.

[171] But if I saw everyone cheering, I'd be like, how the fuck my kid figure this out?

[172] This is all so weird.

[173] Now, I'm curious because we're going to talk about, and I'm putting this in quote, race is a term that I generally reject from my schooling.

[174] I have to imagine you have like a two -layer experience with being black in this country.

[175] One being the fact that your parents were immigrants, and I have to imagine, but there's a lot of ways that could go, but they could be extra delicate and really feel like we're visitors and we want to mind our peas and cues.

[176] They might even explain some racism by it being xenophobia.

[177] Like, I just have to imagine it was maybe a complicated education on race in America, in Dallas, Texas.

[178] Yeah, man. People don't realize this, and I haven't talked a lot about this publicly, but we have to understand there's a huge difference between color and culture.

[179] You can be black skin and not be black cultured.

[180] You can be white skin and not be white cultured.

[181] I grew up black, obviously, lived my whole life black, but I grew up Nigerian culture.

[182] So I was eating goat meat.

[183] I was eating rice and stew.

[184] We were going to Nigerian small groups.

[185] So I was listening to Nigerian gospel music growing up.

[186] My culture through and through was Nigerian.

[187] It was not black culture.

[188] Then I go to this white high school and middle school.

[189] And so I'm all white culture.

[190] So now I'm a combination of Nigerian culture and white culture.

[191] Those still black, I'm white culture, Nigerian culture.

[192] Well, now my dad starts pastoring at a church in inner city, Dallas, Texas, low key in the hood.

[193] And so now I'm immersed in black culture on Wednesdays and Sundays.

[194] Then I go play football at Texas and in the NFL and immersed in black culture again.

[195] So first off, black people aren't one sort of like monolithic group, which is all group think.

[196] But my experience particularly was trilingual, triculture, because it was Nigerian and it was black culture and it was white culture.

[197] Yeah.

[198] I also would imagine you get hit with, quote, black culture increasingly when you go to college.

[199] But then once you get to the NFL, I have to imagine now this is yet its own, my Cosm, yeah?

[200] Yeah, man. The NFL's different because in college, you have several different types of black culture, my experience at Texas.

[201] You got black dudes from the country, black dudes from the hood, black dudes from the city, and then black dudes like me. You got some Carl Malone types, like cowboy hats and black?

[202] Yeah, like you got so, you bro, you got all types in Texas.

[203] But then you got to the NFL, and now it's black culture with money.

[204] And so for me, a lot of it was a learning process, too.

[205] Because of the first generation American, my parents never talked to me about racism.

[206] Why would they have to?

[207] Racism doesn't exist in Nigeria, right?

[208] Like, everybody's black there.

[209] So you come to America and you're like, wait a second.

[210] Why am I being treated differently?

[211] Is it because of my accent?

[212] Is it because I'm black?

[213] Oh, now it's because of both.

[214] That is what I'm saying.

[215] Yeah, it seems like it'd be hard to pinpoint why you were getting attitude from somebody.

[216] Correct.

[217] So now it's because I talk funny, in quotes, and then also because I'm black skin.

[218] And so my parents actually never talked to me about race and racism.

[219] I have to learn on the fly.

[220] Nigeria got different issues, but like race is not one of the issues they got in Nigeria.

[221] So classism, I would imagine.

[222] I'm just trying to imagine what your parents were cognizant of transcending as they got here.

[223] Classism, yes.

[224] I think classism transcends the world at large.

[225] There's so many things involved when one says classism, right?

[226] Because classism typically dictates education.

[227] which also typically dictates stereotypes of how one dresses and whatnot.

[228] So classism in and of itself, it's because what does classism mean?

[229] You know, and what does classism have implications on?

[230] Well, that's why the book cast is so great as it distinguishes between that.

[231] It's like classism is something you can theoretically migrate out of or into, you know, and a cast you can't migrate.

[232] Exactly right.

[233] Okay, so you've got to be a, from UT, by the way, favorite city in the world.

[234] I'm so jealous that you got to matriculate there.

[235] You can call it that.

[236] How often were you at Barton Springs?

[237] Dude, I wasn't really a big water guy.

[238] A little dense, muscular.

[239] I'm not a big water guy.

[240] I probably went to Barton Springs five times in my 10 years living in Austin.

[241] For Barton Springs, I guess like it stays at like 65 degrees.

[242] So I'm definitely not a big cold water guy.

[243] Sure.

[244] But the grassy.

[245] Banks.

[246] There's a lot of great people watching.

[247] Wink, win.

[248] Yes.

[249] So now, dude, in my like later Austin years, I would ride around Town Lake and I would go on like the bike trails, like the 10 -mile bike trails.

[250] But I'm like me and water, yeah, we just, it's kind of like oil and water.

[251] Right.

[252] It does seem like you had some awareness to have aspirations that would either begin or simultaneous to your football career.

[253] Were you conscious of it while you were pursuing football like at best case this is a 15 year experience i got to have a backup plan or i or was it just interest driven dude that's a great question i was never conscious of like oh i got to go to the NFL well i went to this school where you're you're literally supposed to go to yale and harvard you're like you don't even go d1 for my high school so now i'm doing that and then i'm at texas by my sophomore year everybody's like oh yeah you're going to go to the league you're going to go to the league i'm like me the league so i'm like okay then i realized okay, I'm going to the NFL.

[254] Before that realization, what did you have your sight set on?

[255] Obviously, you've ended up getting a master's in psychology.

[256] So I'm young for my grade.

[257] So my sophomore year in college, I would have been 18.

[258] When you're 18, you're just kind of like, I don't know, I'm just going.

[259] I don't know.

[260] You know, like, you're not planning ahead.

[261] You're just going with the flow like any other 18 year old.

[262] So I'm just trying to make good grades, stay out of trouble, get my degree in sports management, and play football.

[263] Like, do this football thing.

[264] but I'm not cognizant of like a five -year or 10 -year plan.

[265] Sure.

[266] Did your parents pass on a healthy, though, fear of failure?

[267] Like, were you operating it all with like, oh, I got to make sure?

[268] You know what's funny?

[269] When I played for the Philadelphia Eagles, my coach said, and I think this is a Navy SEAL slogan, don't operate from a fear of failure, but rather desire to excel.

[270] Uh -huh.

[271] That's the dream.

[272] That doesn't mean we all achieve that.

[273] So I never really operated out of a fear of failure.

[274] I'm just the type of like, I got to be great.

[275] I got to be great.

[276] Whatever the heck it is, if I'm going to do it, I'm going to try to do it excellently.

[277] It was really just, if you're going to play football, be the best.

[278] You're going to write a book, be the best.

[279] Whatever the heck you're going to do, be the best.

[280] Yeah, so you play in the NFL.

[281] Was it enjoyable?

[282] Did you like it?

[283] I liked the camaraderie of it.

[284] I didn't love the league.

[285] So here's what people don't get about the NFL.

[286] Unless you are the star quarterback, unless you're the star receiver, the star running back, it's really not that glamorous.

[287] There are 53 people on a roster.

[288] If you were anywhere from like 30 to 53, your job could be gone in a moment's notice.

[289] If I put it like this, I got cut five times before I was 25.

[290] I got traded from the Cleveland Browns to the Philadelphia Eagles at the age of 22.

[291] To put that in working terms for those listening, I got hired because I got drafted by the Browns, then I got transferred because I got traded to the Eagles, then I got fired five times before I was 25.

[292] Like, imagine me moving from Austin, Texas to Cleveland by myself, don't know anybody, and then you get traded to Philly, and you also don't know anybody, and then you get cut five times.

[293] It's not a glamorous life.

[294] I similarly got told no until I was 29.

[295] It's the first time they hired me to act.

[296] So, yeah, I know it's like to move somewhere and fucking shit the bed for a decade.

[297] It's brutal.

[298] Exactly.

[299] It's tough.

[300] So I like that I did it, and it led me to where I am.

[301] Yeah.

[302] And, you know, made good money, good platform, met a lot of cool people.

[303] But, dude, I also got hurt seven out of eight years, four years college, four years pro.

[304] So like, I do the math.

[305] I'm like, okay, there's an 83 % chance I'm going to get hurt if I play again.

[306] You know what?

[307] I'm going to stop.

[308] So my fourth year in the NFL, I realized, okay, wait a second, you just broke your thumb.

[309] You might be done.

[310] After four years in the NFL, your vested pension annuity, you have all the benefits.

[311] So I started texting my producer in Austin, Longhorn Network.

[312] It's like a subsidiary of ESPN.

[313] Hey, this offseason, can I do some work for you?

[314] Hey, I'd love to do signing day.

[315] I'd love to do spring game.

[316] I did it for free.

[317] Again, people, work for free.

[318] It's not a bad thing.

[319] Work for free at times.

[320] So I did it for free.

[321] And at the end of that little four -month run, she offered me a job.

[322] That's when I was like, uh -oh, do I want to go back and play in the NFL?

[323] And I finally made the decision like, nah, I'm good.

[324] And I just moved into commentating.

[325] That's got to be a hard decision, no. the hardest, the absolute hardest.

[326] I said this, I would play for three teams.

[327] The Dallas Cowboys, from Dallas, the Philadelphia Eagles, because that's where I was playing, or the Chicago Bears, because my brother played in Chicago.

[328] So again, true story, it's August.

[329] I got a text from the Cowboys, Hey, Emmanuel, can you come to Oxnard, California?

[330] We want to work you out.

[331] I'm sick.

[332] I'm literally, like, mentally sick.

[333] I'm like, I don't want to play football anymore, but this is one of the three teams I said I would play for.

[334] So I text my agent, I was like, my broadcast agent, I said, I don't know what I do if they try to sign me. I go to the workout and I walked into the cafeteria 6 a .m. before my workout and I see on their whiteboard in the cafeteria, wake up, 5 .30 a .m., breakfast, 6 a .m., offensive meetings, 6 .30 a .m., practice, 8 a .m. And I was like, I don't want to live this life anymore.

[335] So I go to the workout.

[336] Thankfully, I don't get signed.

[337] Two weeks later, I get a text at 1130 p .m. from the Buffalo Bills.

[338] Emmanuel, this is so -and -so of the Buffalo Bills.

[339] We want to bring you in for a workout.

[340] I don't respond to the text.

[341] You text me again.

[342] Hey, I need your driver's license, social security number.

[343] We want to book your flight.

[344] I don't respond to the text.

[345] I text my agent.

[346] Hey, I'm done.

[347] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

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[385] Now you launch on a very successful career as a broadcaster.

[386] You're at ESPN for a while.

[387] you're at now Fox currently at what point do you decide I'm going to start talking about racial injustice I'm going to start what you have started which is uncomfortable conversations with a black man which I've watched several of by the way people can go to uncomfortable combos .com and check it out how did you decide you wanted to also be doing that I am action and solution oriented what I've realized in life is I don't not like complaining about things without doing something to fix them.

[388] If I feel like I'm out of shape, ah, my abs ain't popping like they used to, I'm going to go do some abs.

[389] And I'm going to start eating some salads and lay off these desserts, right?

[390] Like, if I feel like, oh, I don't like the way I look, I'm going to go get a haircut.

[391] I'm going to go, like, I'm going to fix my problem, not just complain about it.

[392] So in 2016, Colin Kaepernick starts taking a knee.

[393] There was so much unrest, so much.

[394] I said, you know what?

[395] I'm going to gather the cops in Austin, Texas, the chief of police, Art Acevedo, and I'm going to gather like four influential figures in Austin.

[396] I got an Olympic athlete, an NFL player, and myself.

[397] And we all sat down and we live streamed this round hall.

[398] This is in 2016.

[399] This was prior to George Floyd, but this was after Trayvon, Martin, etc. And was the topic specifically taking a knee in Kaepernet?

[400] Yes, the topic was like, why is what's happening in our world happening in our world?

[401] Because I said this, it's my job to influence my domain.

[402] I've been in Austin.

[403] Let me handle Austin.

[404] The influential figures in L .A., y 'all handle L .A. Influential figures in Chicago, y 'all handle Chicago.

[405] I'm going to handle mine.

[406] That was 2016.

[407] I didn't really do anything again until 2020, until after George Floyd was murdered.

[408] And what I realized is that this was my form of grief.

[409] I, like so many other people, particularly black people, were distraught.

[410] Like, I was pacing around my house not knowing what to do.

[411] I was like, I don't know if I want to want to cry.

[412] I don't know if I want to scream.

[413] I don't know what to do.

[414] So I said, okay, Atcho, what the heck is a problem?

[415] What is the problem in our society?

[416] And I realized, wait a second, I know white people and I know black people.

[417] And the problem is there is a communication barrier.

[418] Black people are saying something and white people aren't understanding it.

[419] And white people are saying something and black people aren't understanding it.

[420] What do I mean?

[421] I went to Mexico in 2018, and I was running through the grocery store in Mexico, and I was looking for some hamburgers.

[422] And I was yelling like, hamburgers, hamburgers, can y 'all help me find hamburgers?

[423] I'm yelling at the intent of two stories.

[424] And then finally, they're looking to me confused as heck.

[425] I'm like, hamburgers, I start getting louder.

[426] Hamburgers, they're looking to me confused.

[427] Were you mind me eating one?

[428] Like, hmm, delicious.

[429] I probably should have, but I did.

[430] So finally, I get service on my phone, and I type in English to Spanish translation hamburger.

[431] And I see that the word is hamburgessa.

[432] And so the second I say amburgessa, they're like, oh, I -O -4.

[433] And in our society, that's the same problem we have, because you have black brothers and sisters crying out, oppression, racial injustice, systematic injustice, inequality.

[434] And it's like, what do you mean?

[435] And so we start getting louder, oppression, racism, systematic injustice, we're being discriminated against.

[436] You got some white people like, so I'm like, wait a second, there is a communication barrier.

[437] Like the same communication barrier I had in the grocery store in Mexico, there's one right now.

[438] I have to do something.

[439] My voice is my sword.

[440] Yeah, so in episode nine, you sit down with a ton of police officers.

[441] I don't know.

[442] There's got to be 30 plus in the room.

[443] And something I love that you pointed out.

[444] I happen to be into a sport, which is heavily populated with the Blue Lives Matter flags.

[445] And one of the officers kind of asked what you're feeling about Blue Lives Matter flags were.

[446] and that was something maybe I felt viscerally, but I wouldn't have been able to articulate.

[447] I don't want to steal your good point from you.

[448] When anyone says blue lives matter in response to black lives matter, it makes me feel as though we're missing the point.

[449] To say that one life matters is to assert that historically that life hadn't mattered, right?

[450] To say that blue lives matters to assert that historically, we don't think cop's lives matter.

[451] When we have never treated historically in this country, cops' lives as if they don't matter.

[452] That would be to historically assert as though we haven't treated cops as if their lives mattered.

[453] But in America, we have historically literally treated black people's lives as if they don't matter.

[454] Three -fifths of a person.

[455] Slavery.

[456] All men are created equal.

[457] But when we said all men were created equal, we were not talking about black men.

[458] We were not talking about black women.

[459] We were not talking about women.

[460] So historically, in this country, we have said that black people's lives do not matter.

[461] So when we say that black lives matter, all we are doing is making sure you are talking about us.

[462] Because when we said all men are created equal, you aren't talking about us.

[463] So when you say all lives matter, are you talking about us or not?

[464] So let's just make sure that we leave no room for error.

[465] So when I hear blue lives matter in response to that, I just think that it is kind of a naive or ignorant statement.

[466] Yeah, I agree.

[467] In my experience on planet Earth, everyone takes the death of a police officer very seriously.

[468] And they seem to be investigated very, very thoroughly.

[469] I think the conviction rate and prosecution rate for someone who kills a police officer is quite high.

[470] And I think obviously you have history of like, you know, in Compton, there being a serial killer that preys on young black women.

[471] And no one even recognizes as a serial killer.

[472] So yeah, historically, they're really not comparable.

[473] Now, you ready for my critique?

[474] Talk to me. Because I think they were in an interesting position.

[475] They're under the spotlight.

[476] They're also public officials.

[477] Their jobs depend on how they present themselves in public.

[478] So they're not really unhandcuffed as I would be in maybe really getting some of the harder topics out there, which is clearly the goal of your show, uncomfortable conversations.

[479] I think you have the very admirable goal of creating a safe space where we can actually ask these hard questions that people are afraid to ask in public.

[480] But I guess one thing I thought of is.

[481] is you compared, you know, that if a surgeon commits malpractice, they'll lose their license.

[482] But I would say these cops in America have been asked to deal with at the very end of the river are hardest problems to solve.

[483] So they're dealing with mental illness.

[484] They're dealing with homelessness.

[485] They're dealing with addiction.

[486] They're dealing with domestic violence against women.

[487] These are all societal problems that we have not solved.

[488] And we ask them to go out there and deal with all.

[489] all the horrendous outcome of that.

[490] I think that first, it has to be acknowledged that they're being asked to do way too much.

[491] Exactly what one of the officers said.

[492] They show up to a call.

[493] There's a naked woman.

[494] There's a man holding a baseball bat.

[495] They get a lot of really complicated decisions to make in about five seconds.

[496] Yeah, I think, I'll say a couple things.

[497] The issue with hand acts, I think, is really the lack of prosecution and the lack of punishment fitting the crime.

[498] It's not that errors occur because, as you said, as you heard with the cops, and as I know, is we know errors are going to occur.

[499] There's human error.

[500] They're human issues.

[501] But it's when errors do occur, does the punishment fit the crime?

[502] And far too often, the punishment does not fit the crime, which is why I love talking to those officers.

[503] Again, those, you all can watch the episode on my YouTube.

[504] But one of the officers was like, no, I honestly, I don't think that there is enough accountability in police force.

[505] The other thing is we have to be real.

[506] there's a time for everything.

[507] There's a time to mourn.

[508] There's a time to celebrate.

[509] There's a time to rejoice.

[510] There's a time to cry.

[511] Now is not the time in our climate to look for excuses in the midst of this murder.

[512] That's the real issue.

[513] Now, if I have to address the situation, I'm like, okay, wait a second.

[514] People are being killed unjustly.

[515] Yes, cops are human.

[516] I'm going to get to this humanity, but I'm also going to try to get to the root of, of is there accountability for people being killed unjustly?

[517] Are cops being asked to do a lot?

[518] Yes, which is why I defund the police, which actually doesn't mean defund the police.

[519] It actually means reallocate the funds of the police, which was said in my episode, which is why that's actually wise.

[520] But I think there's a time for everything.

[521] And my platform is really just the time of let me try to find solutions.

[522] Everything you're saying I agree with.

[523] Cops are human.

[524] Yeah, yeah.

[525] I guess what I'm saying is I agree with you.

[526] there's this huge communication barrier.

[527] And in my experience, both in relationships and just in life, is the better you can present what they're going through to start there.

[528] Like, hey, you know what I recognize?

[529] I'm not the one being asked to show up to the fucking lottery when I walk through the door of someone's house.

[530] I don't know if there's going to be three guns in there.

[531] I don't know.

[532] So let me just start by saying you guys are being asked to deal with shit that no human on planet Earth is really qualified to do it.

[533] Also, there's just a ton of statistics you guys are prosecuting more, the sentences are longer, you're pulling over.

[534] You know, like, I know what you're going through.

[535] And also now we've got to confront this really lopsided bit of statistics that are not on everyone's side.

[536] So this is how I approach it.

[537] I try to get the listener to hear what you're saying without me telling them.

[538] I asked the cops during the episode, I said, are you scared when you pull up to the scene of a crime?

[539] Like, I want the listener to understand their humanity.

[540] I ask the cops, do you lose your humanity when you put on the badge?

[541] We had a retired officer on set, and I asked him, how do you feel now that you're no longer in the force?

[542] His response was crazy.

[543] I can finally sleep at night.

[544] Yeah.

[545] I get to work out again.

[546] Yeah.

[547] Like when you listen to that, Dax, now you understand, oh, they're human too.

[548] Because sure, I could tell the listener or the cop could tell the listener.

[549] But it hits harder when a cop who's retired is like, yeah, I finally can sleep again.

[550] I can finally work out.

[551] I'm healthy again.

[552] Yeah, when we do pull up to the scene, there are things that go.

[553] through our head.

[554] Like, I asked him, I said, are you more worried about getting some calls than others?

[555] And he's like, yeah, when we're listening to the radio and we hear some call come through, we're like, oh, like here we go.

[556] I hope Mike's closer to this scene.

[557] Exactly.

[558] Or even my favorite part was when he said, he said, look, that the surgeon, the neurosurgeon can practice.

[559] He said, but we go through training for one situation, then we pull up to the scene.

[560] The woman is naked and the man is holding a baseball bat.

[561] You can't train for that.

[562] Yeah, we hit role play that one.

[563] Exactly.

[564] So that's how I try to approach it.

[565] I try to let the listener infer the cop's humanity, because I think that's a better way for them to digest it.

[566] The most saddening and troubling thing to me is just to your earlier point, just how both sides just cannot hear one another and are convinced that each side has complete contempt for one another.

[567] and those factions certainly exist.

[568] Maybe I'm optimistic.

[569] I think the more general population of us doesn't have contempt for one another or doesn't desire to have contempt for one another.

[570] And I think we also, we have to do a better job, I think, of trying to let our emotions at times after a while subside and let's take a step back and look at things.

[571] The George Floyd situation, I've said this from day one, I don't think it was exclusively racially motivated George Floyd's murder.

[572] I think it was power and I think it was race.

[573] I believe that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts, absolutely.

[574] So I don't think it was just like, okay, he is a black man, George Floyd is, I'm going to kneel on his neck.

[575] I think it was a combination of I have power and absolute power and therefore it has led to corruption.

[576] And I think it is also subliminally I view him as less than.

[577] And in these surroundings, there are black people who I also view as less than telling me to get off, you're not going to tell me the authoritative figure what to do.

[578] So I think there are several factors at play.

[579] Race definitely involved.

[580] Power also involved.

[581] We have to understand all factors that are currently at play in our society.

[582] But it's hard to understand them if you don't understand the culture.

[583] Yeah.

[584] It's hard.

[585] Yeah.

[586] I'm with you.

[587] I bring this up often.

[588] I think the people on my side of the political spectrum, which is the left, do a very bad job of branding.

[589] So defund the police is the most triggering, scary concept for people to just be told two words or three, whereas allocate money for specialists, preventative measures, provide opportunities so the crime rate goes down.

[590] You know, these are all wonderful concepts.

[591] And I just feel like we've fucked up with what we branded it.

[592] Well, you got to remember, bro, in this day and age, what's the coolest hashtag?

[593] Right.

[594] Hashtag, reallocate funds for the police does not see.

[595] sound is good.

[596] It just doesn't have the same ring to it.

[597] But we also I think in general, as people we're lazy.

[598] I think we use lazy adjectives.

[599] I think we're lazy with our word choice and we're lazy with how we digest information.

[600] I heard defund the police and I was like, huh?

[601] Then I was like, let me start Googling.

[602] Oh, wait a second.

[603] Right.

[604] Defund the police doesn't actually mean like abolish the police.

[605] That's not what's being said.

[606] Right.

[607] And that's why when I asked the cops about defund the police, He was like, yeah, I love it.

[608] He was like, if you can have somebody else do some of the stuff we have to do, I'd be ecstatic.

[609] He said, but the problem is the social worker can't show up to the scene if there's a knife there.

[610] We got to show up to the scene.

[611] So he's like, if you can have somebody, if you can get the social worker or somebody else to do it, by all means.

[612] Yeah.

[613] And even more importantly, let's go a little upstream and think of some ways we could prevent anyone having to arrive in these situations, you know?

[614] Dude, I said this, man, an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure.

[615] Yeah.

[616] We have to do a better job being proactive instead of reactive.

[617] If we did a better job of verbally disarming, then we wouldn't have to discharge the weapons.

[618] Yeah, I mean, well, the outcome we have is terrible.

[619] And to just hope on a prayer that it'll change without some drastic change on our side is just a little naive.

[620] By the way, I adore you and love your show.

[621] I feel compelled to say that first.

[622] And I applaud everything you're about.

[623] Do you think you gave a fair answer to the copy?

[624] saying when we pull people over now the first thing we hear is you're only pulling us over because we're black and so they're starting in a situation where it's like they may have a very legitimate thing to have pulled the person over from and now both parties have taken on this huge weighty context of what's happening in life it's not fair to either of the parties what do we do about that part as far as a fair answer i think i gave i would say i gave an honest answer.

[625] Fair, I think, would be subjective.

[626] I feel like in our society at this point, there's a fracture between black people and police officers, particularly white police officers.

[627] So just like in any relationship, if there was a fracture between significant others and there had been infidelity, then, yeah, when you leave to go hang out with your boys, you might get questioned a little bit harder than if there was no fracture in the relationship.

[628] And so now, Because there's a fracture between black people and officers, if a cop shows up, there's going to be a visceral reaction.

[629] Well, it's a very justified fear, yeah.

[630] Exactly, because of what currently exists.

[631] So my response was, knowledge is power.

[632] So it behooves officers to understand why this response is existing and that this response is existing so that the cop can now best navigate the situation as well.

[633] Because that's why I love talking to the cops.

[634] For those, again, that haven't seen the episode, I talked to Petaluma police officers.

[635] Petaluma is a population of 60 ,000 in California, less than 1 % black.

[636] The first question I asked the officers, when's the last time you sat down with a group of black people?

[637] The resounding answer was, I don't know that I ever had.

[638] Or had someone over for dinner, yeah.

[639] Or had someone over for dinner.

[640] Yeah, this is my favorite quote of years that you said.

[641] Yeah, I said, proximity breeds care and distance breeds fear.

[642] So if you've never sat down with a group of black people or a black person and your first interaction with the black person is when you're pulling them over, how you think that's going to go.

[643] Yeah.

[644] You know what I was like?

[645] You said y 'all are both set up for failure.

[646] It'd be like having a blind date and a porta potty.

[647] Dude.

[648] Like, let's start this as bad as we can.

[649] How do you expect it to go?

[650] And again, although we both speak English, it's different.

[651] I'll tell you all this.

[652] I went to an all -boys middle school and high school.

[653] When I went to college, yes, men and women both speak English, yes, boys and girls both speak English, but you have to relate to a woman differently than you do a man. You act differently around them.

[654] In an all -boys school, I don't care what I smell like, what I look like, what I dress like.

[655] I don't care how aggressive I am.

[656] It doesn't matter.

[657] But so if you have to relate to different people differently and you're cognizant about that in life, how then can you think you can maximally do your job as an officer?

[658] If you're relating to somebody, you've never, a group of people, you've never even talked to.

[659] So that's really just how I tried to have that conversation.

[660] I think I accumulated a couple of criticisms from Maximus Mouse here in my questioning.

[661] Did I, do you want to, do you want to tangle with me a little little bit?

[662] No, I think he got it.

[663] Okay, okay.

[664] He handled it.

[665] He handled you.

[666] I can feel that our biochemistry was interacting a little bit while I was asking those questions and I could feel it.

[667] Well, there's just some like big elephants in the room on this topic that no one's really talking about peacefully and respectfully on both sides.

[668] I'm kind of forced to be in the position where I'm going to have to give basically not even my opinion.

[669] But, you know, one of the things that I hear from folks that are more conservative or I don't know what group we did arbitrarily put them in, but, you know, there's a lot of people living in very high crime rate areas that desperately want the police to be getting rid of guns.

[670] They want them to be getting rid of theft.

[671] And profiling is very problematic.

[672] So you have this really incredibly hard.

[673] It's not one side's super right and the other is blatantly wrong.

[674] It's like, well, this is a very complicated situation.

[675] How do we deal with a very high crime rate area with the goal of reducing crime and also not profiling?

[676] Well, you know what's interesting is that Our society has told us that a certain group commits crimes at a higher rate.

[677] But I like drawing parallels to relationships because everybody can understand relationships.

[678] If you look for something, you go find it.

[679] And why the white people commit less crimes than black people is that white people are less police than black people.

[680] Big time, yeah.

[681] Like big time, it's not my opinion.

[682] And I've also had conversations with chiefs of police who were saying, well, we try to serve this neighborhood more.

[683] so we send more officers to that neighborhood.

[684] Oh, wait a second.

[685] You're just saying that you're over -policing this neighborhood.

[686] And again, I elaborate on that in my book.

[687] It's like, black people are just more over -policed.

[688] And so because you're more over -policed, and now it's more talked about in the media, now our world has left us to believe that, oh, black people are more likely to commit crimes when, in all honesty, all high -violent crimes are intracial.

[689] Blacks kill blacks.

[690] Whites kill whites.

[691] Hispanics kill Hispanics.

[692] But that does not what the world tell.

[693] Well, and any time there is zero opportunity, crime rate goes up.

[694] It's also a very much part of the extreme income inequality in this country.

[695] You know, I'm from an area in Michigan that had a very distinct people below the poverty line.

[696] White, those were always the people you saw on the side of the road getting pulled over.

[697] Those were always where the cop cars were patrolling those neighborhoods.

[698] You know, they were very much focusing on the low income people that, by their estimation, is right or wrong, more crime was happening.

[699] So I think opportunity is a huge aspect.

[700] I don't think for one second, any ethnicity has a monopoly on crime.

[701] I think all things being equal where there's not opportunity, where there's mass addiction rates, you see a lot of crime.

[702] But it still leaves us with the problem.

[703] So from my armchair expert position, prevention's the thing we've not explored with the full weight of this government or the full will of the people.

[704] That's the thing that I think I would most like to see implemented.

[705] And then you can almost have the conversation, okay, well, we've done everything on the prevention side.

[706] Let's look at the equation where are we at.

[707] What results are we producing?

[708] Now we have to figure out something to further perfect it.

[709] And if you're using your equation and opportunity or lack thereof equals crime, then it's all about growing opportunities because I agree with you.

[710] So now it's are we growing opportunities?

[711] But if we don't acknowledge in this country that there is an inequality around opportunities, then we can never get to the root.

[712] That's where the pain is.

[713] If we're looking and saying, what's the crime issue?

[714] What's it the root of the crime issue?

[715] And if the root of the crime issue is opportunity, then we have to allow for more opportunities for everyone.

[716] But some people think that there's not an opportunity issue.

[717] Yeah, that's the problem.

[718] Very frustrating.

[719] Yes.

[720] Yeah.

[721] It's a treating the symptom and not the source of the thing.

[722] Yeah.

[723] Exactly.

[724] Exactly.

[725] We've all been there.

[726] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable.

[727] pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[728] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[729] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[730] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[731] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[732] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[733] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[734] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[735] What's up, guys?

[736] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[737] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest.

[738] Okay, every episode I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[739] And I don't mean just friends.

[740] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[741] The list goes on.

[742] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[743] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[744] I totally agree.

[745] And that brings me to your Chelsea episode, which I enjoyed a lot as well.

[746] And I liked...

[747] Chelsea Handler.

[748] Chelsea Handler.

[749] Sorry, sorry, sorry.

[750] Episode 10, Chelsea Handler.

[751] Uncomfortable conversations with a black man. Uncombo's .com.

[752] You know, you guys draw a distinction between being not racist and being anti -racist.

[753] And the thing I thought of, I got to say that, like, I've been guilty of.

[754] I think I was among the population of people that said, it's on the Muslim community to weed out the fundamentalists who are violent and they need to deal with that because it's giving vast majority of beautiful people a bad name.

[755] Like, I felt like it was on them to.

[756] self -police their religious members.

[757] And I had no problem going, well, that's on you, right?

[758] Well, I've been in situations where I've been like, that's a bummer of an opinion.

[759] Oh, that's racist.

[760] Oh, am I going to create tons of friction right now and challenge that racism?

[761] And I've recognized it's hard.

[762] It's uncomfortable.

[763] It is not easy.

[764] This thing I thought that every practitioner of Islam should do.

[765] I've failed that miserably many, many times.

[766] There's been times I've done it, but I do think it is true that it's, it's on us.

[767] It's on white people to help other white people see where they have a big blind spot or they're not acknowledging the tremendous disparity in opportunity, the tremendous disparity in education, all these things.

[768] It's also challenging for people, especially people who are afraid of conflict and this and that, but it has to be done.

[769] Bingo, you hit the nail on the head.

[770] So the difference in my opinion between being not racist and anti -racist.

[771] Not racist is you are not racist, but you allow racism to exist around you.

[772] Your friends making racist jokes, having racist conversations, anti -racist is calling it out whenever you see it.

[773] But to your point, again, I say this in the book I wrote in comfortable conversations with a black man, I say that you wouldn't judge a whole group of fans based on the one brawl that broke out in the stands, right?

[774] Like, that's one brawl that broke out amongst one group of people.

[775] And you wouldn't sit there and judge that.

[776] that whole group of fans accordingly.

[777] So why do we do the same thing in society?

[778] We can't let one small representation speak for the whole group at large.

[779] So the Chelsea Hanler episode, I loved because Chelsea Hamler is just so herself.

[780] And she just, she doesn't sugarcoat.

[781] She speaks honestly.

[782] And you can tell she's grown a lot because she has made a ton of mistakes.

[783] And she knows she has.

[784] So I loved that episode.

[785] Yeah.

[786] It's really hard to be the person who, like sometimes I feel in the position that, that I'm always the person to call it out and it gets exhausting.

[787] After a while, you do get exhausted of it.

[788] It can feel cyclical and it just can feel defeating.

[789] But it is important to keep having those conversations and push yourself so that it isn't just on one person to call it out every time so that everyone can share that responsibility.

[790] Correct.

[791] I think, dude, if you call it out, like, they don't necessarily like confrontation either.

[792] Like, you only got to call it out once.

[793] Because once you call it out once, they're going to be like, like, okay, I can't do this around that person.

[794] If I'm going to be racist, I got to take my racism elsewhere.

[795] And eventually, we're going to seclude the racist to a four -by -four wall where they can't talk to nobody about their racism.

[796] And that has to be the goal until it's extinct.

[797] Your book, is it out?

[798] Yeah, book is out.

[799] New York Times bestseller.

[800] Oh, finished number three in week one.

[801] Thank you, my man. And then number 11 last week.

[802] So New York Times bestseller in the first two weeks that's out.

[803] You can order it wherever books are sold or Uncombo's dot com.

[804] It's crazy, Dax.

[805] If I look at the list, like Barack Obama, Matthew McConaughey, Dolly Parton, Michael J. Fox, Michelle Obama, Emmanuel Lacho.

[806] It's like I'm the misfit.

[807] I don't know what I'm doing there, but it's crazy because the episodes you speak of in the book, I really get to expand on that.

[808] The episode, the cop episode that we've referenced with the white police officers, it's 19 minutes.

[809] The Chelsea Handler episode, it's 12 minutes.

[810] My audio book is four hours.

[811] It's content on content.

[812] start every chapter with a question.

[813] Hey, should I say black or African -American?

[814] What about the N -word?

[815] How come black people use it in music, but I can't say it?

[816] I start literally every chapter with the question.

[817] I answer the question, make it conversational.

[818] And I end the book with my thoughts on how racism finally ends.

[819] So, I mean, makes for a great Christmas gift.

[820] I love that people are loving it.

[821] Okay, I want everyone to go out and buy uncomfortable conversations with a black man. My very last question, what's the moment where Oprah joined your team like?

[822] After the first episode, I got a call six days later.

[823] First episode got 25 million views in four days.

[824] I got to call six days later from a no -callor ID number.

[825] I pick it up.

[826] Hello?

[827] Acho, McConaughey speaking.

[828] I want to have a conversation.

[829] I'm like, like Matthew McConaughey?

[830] He's like, yeah, man, let's have a conversation.

[831] I'm doing the next episode in four days.

[832] He says, let's do it tomorrow.

[833] okay McCona wants to do it tomorrow we do it tomorrow five days later I got a call from Oprah's right -hand woman hey Emmanuel Oprah would love to talk to you today if you're free for 45 minutes if I'm free of course I'm free clear the schedules please Oprah wants to talk Oprah calls me and she asked me she says what is your intention I said well Oprah my my intention is to change the world and I truly believe I can she said well I would love to partner with you on doing that I said man that would be an honest We were talking about the show at the time.

[834] I told her, well, you know, I'm currently trying to pitch a different book to these different companies.

[835] She said, books, I love books.

[836] She sure does.

[837] And she said, I want to partner with you on writing this book.

[838] So my book is actually an Oprah imprint.

[839] It's only the second Oprah imprint, not written by Oprah.

[840] Well, so you bet on the right dude.

[841] Thankfully, thankfully, man. All right, I'd hate for this interview to go any longer without me saying how incredibly gorgeous your smile is.

[842] So congratulations on that as well.

[843] Good luck with everything.

[844] I look forward to talking to you again.

[845] Appreciate y 'all.

[846] Have a good one.

[847] All right.

[848] Take care.

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