#1041 - Dan Carlin

[0] Hold this.

[1] All the good stuff happens before we're on.

[2] It always does.

[3] Three, two, one.

[4] Dan Carlin, ladies and gentlemen, and we're live.

[5] Hey, dude, first of all, thank you so much for this coin.

[6] This coin from Constantine, you brought me a...

[7] How many years old is this?

[8] 1 ,700.

[9] That's fucking crazy, man. It's fun to...

[10] I always say, I like giving something that is the oldest man -made object in most people's homes.

[11] Maybe not yours.

[12] You'll have some Aboriginal instrument or something that's like from the Stone Age, but most people, that'll be the oldest man -made thing in their home.

[13] My friend, Dr. Mark Gordon.

[14] actually gave me a Roman coin as well.

[15] But I don't know whose coin is old.

[16] Yours looks older.

[17] I don't know.

[18] That's depressing, though, because normally I'm the coin guy, so I hate that I've been beaten to the punch by anybody on that.

[19] Well, he's kind of a historical aficionado or a history aficionado as well.

[20] Not the extent that you are, though.

[21] So this is from Constantine?

[22] Yeah, my wife would spend that by accident, just so you know.

[23] I mean, that's, where's that coin?

[24] Oh, I got a coffee.

[25] I got a pair of shoes.

[26] That's right.

[27] No one wouldn't buy shoes.

[28] No. How much was that worth back then?

[29] Do you know what the...

[30] I think That's like their penny, probably.

[31] Is it, did they have, what kind of units do they have?

[32] They had, like, they probably had like some dead metal type thing, and then some kind of bronze, and then you get into the silver and gold and how much is mixed into the rest.

[33] And they have those, like you can go, and it's actually really cool because they wear better.

[34] Like, they'll clean the silver off, and it looks like yesterday.

[35] So you always know it's the cheap stuff when they're all dirty and everything like that.

[36] Oh, right, because then it's not silver.

[37] That's like a penny.

[38] Well, our pennies get the same way, right?

[39] What do you think this is made out of?

[40] Oh, some alloy.

[41] I don't know.

[42] They had alloys back then?

[43] Oh, sure.

[44] Electrum was the cool one.

[45] Were you mix gold and silver?

[46] Ooh.

[47] I've never heard of that.

[48] Yeah, Electrum.

[49] They still have it.

[50] Yeah, they still have.

[51] What do they use it for?

[52] I hope I'm right about this.

[53] This is going to be one of these on Twitter.

[54] Dan Carly doesn't know what he's talking about it about Electrum.

[55] It's not that.

[56] Well, the beautiful thing about your podcast is you can research things in advance.

[57] So you know what the fuck you're talking about by the time you speak.

[58] Theoretically, yes.

[59] Allegedly.

[60] Allegedly.

[61] Supposedly.

[62] I have a lot of wiggle room words.

[63] Defensive journalism.

[64] Yeah.

[65] Yeah, but dude, I don't have to tell you any, again, but I will.

[66] Your podcast, for me, has been the most educational, historical thing in my entire life.

[67] Like, I've never had anything in my life that's taught me more about history than hardcore history.

[68] I don't even know how to react when people say that.

[69] It is the kindest things that you hear, and I always say the same thing.

[70] I always hope everybody gets a chance in their lives to have people that they admire turning around and telling them something like that because it is the neatest feeling.

[71] And when you realize all the crap you put up with for decades and other jobs and other businesses to say, okay, I'm 51 or whatever, and they really like what you do, you just, everybody should feel this way.

[72] So I appreciate that.

[73] My pleasure.

[74] And I appreciate you.

[75] You found your niche, man. You, like, think about all the other stuff you did, all the broadcast work you did before.

[76] It really prepared you for this podcast because obviously this medium is so incredibly new and this ability for you to just put something out.

[77] I mean, I see when you put out new podcasts, they're regularly at the top of the heap of all the podcasts in the world.

[78] That's incredible when you think about that, that all you, it's just you and you have a guy who helps you with editing.

[79] Theoretically, yeah.

[80] Yeah, and that's fucking it.

[81] I mean, that is amazing.

[82] Well, I mean, how is that any different from this empire?

[83] Because I'm just talking.

[84] Yeah, but that's all I'm doing too.

[85] But you walk into this place, you go, this is what Joe Rogan's talking has built.

[86] Yeah, something, something along those lines.

[87] I mean, talking about people like you.

[88] But you're right.

[89] I mean, I keep trying to remind myself, because you know, you and I have both been doing this a long time.

[90] Got into it pretty early on.

[91] And so for us, it doesn't feel new, but you keep trying to think about, okay, what's this going to be like in 30 years?

[92] Right.

[93] 40 years.

[94] I keep telling everybody that what you're seeing now, and my children know no other world.

[95] I mean, in their minds, I tell my oldest all the time, at the time you were born, we weren't even texting yet.

[96] That is all since you've come around.

[97] So I keep thinking, we're still at the tip of the tip of the tip of the iceberg in this era that we're in now.

[98] What's podcasting going to be like when whole generations grow up and it's just a part of their world and podcasts are a part of it?

[99] And it won't even be podcasting.

[100] I mean, they'll be broadcasting into the matrix cord in the back of your neck or something.

[101] But, but I mean, we're still at the, it seems hard for long -term podcasters to understand that this is still the beginning.

[102] It's almost impossible for us to predict because when you really think about what we're doing now in terms of like, you could put a YouTube video right now, you could make a video and it could go viral for whatever reason.

[103] and a million people all over the world could be watching your video, like, almost instantly.

[104] This was not only unheard of 10 years ago.

[105] Just go back 20, 30, 40.

[106] It's insanity.

[107] You're talking insanity.

[108] Like, people would be like, what the fuck are you saying?

[109] You have a phone in your pocket?

[110] That would be insane.

[111] You have a phone in your pocket that has a camera?

[112] What?

[113] Wait a minute.

[114] You have a phone in your pocket that's a video camera that takes high -definition video with stereo sound, And you can, wait a me, you're uploading it through the sky, just through the air.

[115] What?

[116] In real time?

[117] Like, instantaneously.

[118] That's insane.

[119] So now think, what could we be looking at in terms of augmented reality, in terms of virtual reality?

[120] I'm working on something along those lines right now.

[121] Are you?

[122] It's crazy.

[123] What are you doing?

[124] I can't tell you what I mean.

[125] Dude, tell me off there.

[126] But the point is, the point is that this, you're absolutely right about this stuff.

[127] And, you know, I spent, before I got into podcasting, I was in.

[128] in the era where, you know, like Mark Cuban made it big, and everybody was just going to start a high -tech company and sell it for billions of dollars.

[129] What did Cuban make it big with?

[130] Broadcast .com, I think, which, if I recall, it was basically like a website with a bunch of links.

[131] And, you know, everybody was like, dang, if he could do it.

[132] So I was in one of these companies with a bunch of buddies, and we were pushing what we called amateur content back then.

[133] So we're talking 95, 96.

[134] And one of my jobs was to go with the staff to all these venture capitalists and try to sell them on the idea of what amateur content was going to become.

[135] Joe, we went from like place to place to place with all these people who are supposedly the ones who can see the future and every one of them.

[136] And I mean every single one said, nobody's going to view amateur content because if anybody could make anything anybody who wanted to see, they'd be paid for it.

[137] Right.

[138] And I kept talking about the quantity has a quality all its own idea, right?

[139] Where you say, listen, if only one percent of this stuff is worth watching, you're still going to have millions of pieces of content uploaded all the time.

[140] There's going to be good stuff in there.

[141] And they were like, so you thought this was coming.

[142] in some ways.

[143] Well, yeah, and it wasn't just because, you know, I was in with a bunch of tech people who understood this too, but one of them had taken me off the radio and said, we're going to put you on the internet.

[144] This was in 94.

[145] And I said, put me on the internet.

[146] I said, you know, we're just learning how to use the.

[147] I said, what are we going to do?

[148] And he says, well, I'm going to invent the way to do this.

[149] And you're going to be the test person, right, that shows everybody.

[150] So that fell through.

[151] But once that happened, I was, you know, it was in the back of my head going, okay, someday we might be able to do this on the internet.

[152] that kind of thing.

[153] But the point was is that these people at the venture capital meetings, all these you know, hardcore guys who were inventing our future and funding it, none of them saw this amateur content thing coming.

[154] There was one thing that they were doing quite a long time ago.

[155] There was like some internet radio channel that they had tried to put together.

[156] And, you know, they had funded it and spent a bunch of money on and they hired a bunch of people to do it.

[157] And Bobby Slayton was actually one of the online broadcasters.

[158] And I did his show.

[159] And, you know, and he was talking about how they were having a hard time.

[160] keeping it up and wasn't catching on the way they wanted to.

[161] They were just a little bit ahead of their time.

[162] Yeah, yeah, too far ahead.

[163] I read somewhere, too, because I was actually sort of researching the history of what we do and what the precursors were.

[164] And I guess there were audio blogs and stuff that some really high tech types were pursuing in the 90s also, maybe even the late 80s where, you know, they're like send in full files to each other or something.

[165] But, you know, it's funny because somebody's going to write a book someday about the history of this and how it got started and all that kind of stuff.

[166] And it's crazy to think about that we're actually due to sort of a serendipity, good timing sense that here we are, like I said, in the first 10 years, 15 years of what's not just going to be a phenomenon, but it's going to be a huge part, I think, of the future world that people grow up in, not our shows specifically, but this world we're creating.

[167] I mean, everyone's a broadcaster now.

[168] Yeah, and look, anyone could have been.

[169] I mean, there's been a lot of barriers to keep people that are really talented, interesting, funny people from getting their stuff out there.

[170] and that thing was always like they didn't know how to start how do I like how do I become a stand -up comedian I've talked to so many funny guys and they just go well how do I get started like well you got to go sign up at an open mic night and like it just seems too much and the idea of it is too daunting but if you just sit in front of a camera that's all you have to do turn yourself on on and start talking here's what I think about Donald Trump this is what I think about Harvey Weinstein all you have to do is have a unique take be funny be interesting somehow engaging And it doesn't even have to be visual.

[171] I mean, God, there's a hundred, maybe more, really funny, what I would call Twitter comedians that just say funny shit.

[172] They write funny shit on Twitter.

[173] And they have huge followings because of it.

[174] I always say, you know, you try to look at what the brick and mortar analog version of this was before this came around.

[175] I remember MC Hammer was selling, you know, cassette tapes of his music out of his hatchback at the Oakland A's games.

[176] Or I think of like Eddie Murphy or Richard Pryor, these people who are just.

[177] just they're so funny that you could put them on a crappily recorded cassette tape and it wouldn't make any difference and i remember any murphy saying something about if he hadn't gotten on saturday live he doesn't know how he would have how he would have exposed himself to the public well these days if you're that funny and you put that on audio and you put it out there you will you no no longer need the facilitator the gatekeeper to open the doors for you you have a wide open um a mic you know you called it open mic night this is open mic night for the world right Yeah.

[178] Every country.

[179] It's fucking crazy.

[180] There's some kid who's 20 years old who bought a house in my neighborhood for $9 million or $7 million.

[181] $7 million.

[182] Some fucking YouTube kid.

[183] I was reading about it today.

[184] I went, what?

[185] He's 20.

[186] He bought a $7 million fucking house.

[187] I was like, this is insane.

[188] Don't even pull it up.

[189] Enough of him.

[190] No, I was at YouTube.

[191] I was at YouTube about a month ago.

[192] I did a speaking engagement at Google and across the street in New York above the Camden Market.

[193] They own the whole building.

[194] So they take me up there.

[195] I get this six -hour tour, and at one point they have on a wall with all these YouTube stars on it.

[196] And, you know, I'm old, so there's one or two.

[197] So I go, okay, that's Lady Gaga, I guess.

[198] And there's a bunch of, like, 20 -year -olds.

[199] And they're going, oh, this guy has a bazillion followers.

[200] And I'm looking at him going, really?

[201] I mean, at his age, I don't know what the hell I was doing.

[202] I was taking a year off college or something.

[203] But it's all these kids with multiple piercings and tattoos and face stuff.

[204] And they're all, the Google people were telling me, oh, these people are all huge.

[205] Giants.

[206] Yeah, come in with their entourages.

[207] That's crazy Some kid just died He was 21 He had all his face tattoos And I was like who the fuck is this kid Well he's a giant YouTube star Some YouTube rap star Did you know who he was?

[208] I've heard the name I didn't know who he was See you're young Jamie But you're actually old to all these young fucks Oh whoa hey Calm down How old are you Uh 34 That's old to these young trucks Never trust anybody over 30 Wasn't that the line?

[209] Yeah that was back in the day Right But the 30s 40's the new 30s So everything changes So what the fuck am I Dirt old like dirt still at the top of the of the iceberg though doing the head of the game head of everybody this whole thing what we're experiencing now I think is the top of the iceberg because I think there's some shit that's coming down the pipe that is going to blow all this out of the water and the idea of just listening to things is going to be ridiculous it's going to be so surface I really believe what you were saying about some sort of a matrix plug -in my friend my friend Duncan has one of those HTC vibes have you ever seen those You put the helmet on?

[210] I have one.

[211] Do you have one of those?

[212] Yeah, well, part of the gig I'm working on, yeah.

[213] Oh, you want to talk about it?

[214] They sent it to me, and I'll tell you what's cool.

[215] I didn't want to interrupt your show.

[216] You go ahead, but I'll take it's cool.

[217] Well, Google Earth is on the virtual reality thing, right?

[218] And they just started it, they just put out a new, I think it's a new update.

[219] I'm old, so don't quote me on this, but the update allows you now to zoom in at the ground level.

[220] Yeah.

[221] Now, it's not virtual reality at the ground level.

[222] It's more like you're in the photograph, but it's.

[223] It's really cool.

[224] It was just a week ago.

[225] I went to all the homes I grew up in as a kid and went back there.

[226] Jamie's pulling it up.

[227] Okay, so this is how it always looked even like a year ago, but now you can zoom into the ground and there's people around you at all these.

[228] Oh, my God.

[229] It's truly awesome, I have to say.

[230] This is insane.

[231] And it's only going to be better.

[232] They'll actually at some point have real virtual reality on the ground anywhere you want to go.

[233] This is insane.

[234] Well, that's what I think is going to come up next.

[235] I think we're going to have it set up where, like, this podcast, you'll be able to put on some goggles like this lady is wearing here, you're going to be able to put up some goggles, and you're going to be in this room with us.

[236] You'll be behind me. You'll be staring at my butt.

[237] You'll do whatever the fuck you want.

[238] You'll be in the room.

[239] You know what I'm saying?

[240] Yeah, you will.

[241] You will.

[242] It'll be like a sim game, but you're in it.

[243] That's common, man. This is, this whole thing is going to feel so 2D and flat and archaic in just a decade or so.

[244] Everybody's waiting, though, for the big, see, it's funny how you wait for, you know, you know how technology is adopted, right?

[245] You don't buy the computer just to have the computer.

[246] Some new game or some new ability comes, you go, oh, I got to do that.

[247] Well, I guess I need a computer for that.

[248] Everybody's waiting for that in the virtual reality realm, too.

[249] What's the must -have thing that then next Christmas everybody's got to have the virtual reality set up under the tree for, you know?

[250] Well, I think one of the things that's setting Android ahead of the curve in terms of like Android versus Apple is that these Android phones, they slide into these headsets now and they act as virtual reality screens.

[251] Like a low -level one, yeah.

[252] But not that bad, man. Not that bad anymore.

[253] seen it, but they told me, again, they, that the overlords?

[254] Yes, the overlords.

[255] I understand they're mushroom overlords.

[256] That's what I heard earlier.

[257] But no, they were telling me that the iPhones from Apple also are built for that capability.

[258] They just haven't introduced the add -ons that you would need.

[259] But in terms of the power that they've put in there, they built it for that.

[260] So it can scale up eventually.

[261] Yeah, he just pulled it up.

[262] I could be talking out of my rear right there.

[263] No, you got it right there.

[264] Apple reportedly readying standalone A -R.

[265] which is augmented reality, headset for 2019.

[266] Well, hey, fuckface, that's a year and a half away from now, you fucking assholes.

[267] When is this going to hit?

[268] See, that's what no one knows, and everybody's afraid to put money forward and be too early like you were just talking about.

[269] Hold on.

[270] Look at this.

[271] The device would run ROS, Apple's reality operating system.

[272] See, that's the fucking Matrix, man. This is what everybody was worried about with Google, that Google was Skynet.

[273] Google has your email.

[274] Google, like some people were using Google Voice, people use Google Maps.

[275] I mean, there's so much now that you're connected to with this one company.

[276] If they come out with some crazy augmented reality thing, and then you, like, tap into that as well.

[277] But everybody wants you in their environment, right?

[278] Everyone wants you in the closed environments.

[279] I mean, it's funny how the old AOL model is similar now to what they still.

[280] Facebook never wants you to have to leave Facebook.

[281] Google wants you to be Googled all the time.

[282] I mean, Apple, they keep you with the iMessage.

[283] I tried switching over to a Google Pixel about a year ago for two days.

[284] It was so bad, like trying to get people to message me. Like, I would text people.

[285] Did you get it?

[286] No. Did you get it?

[287] No. Send me a text.

[288] I didn't get it.

[289] I didn't get it.

[290] Yeah, I didn't get it.

[291] It says I sent it.

[292] Okay, hold on.

[293] I'm going to send you one.

[294] Tell me when you get it.

[295] You didn't get it?

[296] Did you get it?

[297] No. So what do you got to do?

[298] So then I go online.

[299] You have to go to the Apple, I message servers and have your e -message servers and have your email removed.

[300] Okay, I'll go and do that.

[301] Nothing.

[302] I was like, fuck this.

[303] And then I talked to people online.

[304] I'm like, what's the best way to do this?

[305] They go, you got to change your number.

[306] I go, what?

[307] So if you want to try to use an Android phone, you have to change your phone number.

[308] I'm like, all right, fuck it.

[309] I went right back to Apple.

[310] I was like, I don't have time for this.

[311] This is like, this is too much noodling around.

[312] I know.

[313] One problem with a password these days can occupy your whole day trying to figure out the problem.

[314] So, I mean, I had it with the email.

[315] I didn't know Yahoo Mail was down.

[316] So I'm thinking it's my problem.

[317] So I'm spending the whole day working on it.

[318] I'm changing passwords.

[319] Find out of the end of the day.

[320] No, Yahoo was just down.

[321] All those passwords.

[322] You'd have to do any of that.

[323] And it screwed up everything that you had before.

[324] And I'm 51.

[325] That's what happens when you get old.

[326] Well, I got a MacBook and I got a phone call on my book.

[327] Yeah, me too.

[328] I was like, what is this bullshit?

[329] I updated something.

[330] And all of a sudden my laptop started ringing.

[331] And I'm like, no, no, no, no. We're not doing this.

[332] No, no. I'm not doing this.

[333] I got to ask my children.

[334] I'm at the point now where I'm literally asking my teenage children for help.

[335] And that, to me, is a sign right there.

[336] It's the first sign that eventually leads you into that home that they put you in.

[337] You know, I mean, this is the first step towards my children going, oh, my God, my father.

[338] You know what's bizarre, man. My kids, they just figure shit out.

[339] Like, if you give a kid, it's amazing how intuitive some of these app creators are.

[340] Absolutely.

[341] Because my nine -year -old, she started making these little movies.

[342] She's got this little editing thing on her iPad.

[343] My 12 -year -old does it, too.

[344] So she's filming little scenes.

[345] She splices them all together, and then she adds music and text to it.

[346] And then she goes, Daddy, you want to see the movie I made?

[347] I went, what?

[348] What do you?

[349] The fuck are you doing over here?

[350] And it's good.

[351] And it's weird.

[352] You know what, though?

[353] I mean, from a creative standpoint, it's so easy, and I tend to have a personality that does this anyway, to look at the negative dystopian, you know, things that can happen, the big brother things, which is totally the way I see the world.

[354] But my kids, when I look at the creativity, so in my family, I come from a family of people who worked in film.

[355] So when I was a kid, I had a Super 8 camera.

[356] I had the old editing setup.

[357] Damn.

[358] I used to splice it by it.

[359] I used to make little space videos and I figured out you scratch the film with a needle frame after frame and you can make laser beams.

[360] And so when I was a kid, I did that.

[361] So like you said, my daughter comes up.

[362] It was only two weeks ago.

[363] And she's taken all of her school plays that she's done.

[364] She's taken scenes out of them.

[365] She's backed it with music and she's turned it into like a movie promo that you see at the beginning of the theater.

[366] Oh, wow.

[367] And I'm looking at this and I'm going, this is so dang creative.

[368] And it's made, you know, how hard it would have been for her to get a Super 8 camera and the editing device.

[369] I mean, this makes it available to all these people.

[370] And so theoretically, if it doesn't go the Dan Carlin dystopian Blade Runner way, it could easily be like this.

[371] And this is how I used to sell the amateur content to the venture capitalists in the 90s by saying it's going to be a creativity revolution.

[372] And Joe Rogan's nine -year -old is already taking part in it.

[373] And you're not even sure how she did it.

[374] That's how we know.

[375] I have no idea.

[376] I've watched her do it.

[377] I'm like, how are you doing this?

[378] Who taught you to do this?

[379] She goes, I figured it out.

[380] I go, you figured it out.

[381] You just figured it out.

[382] She goes, yeah, you just put this and then you do that.

[383] You want to do one?

[384] Let's do one.

[385] Like you could do them fast and slow -mo and all those different little effects you could put on it.

[386] Do you remember the old days when you have two VHS tapes?

[387] Yes.

[388] Two boxes and you would press one on record and the other one on play and you would record from each other.

[389] Yes, and it worked about 50 % of the time.

[390] Sort of.

[391] It was like the cuts were so obvious.

[392] Like the cuts of scenes.

[393] It was never seamless.

[394] There was always like this big fucking digital fuzz in between the scenes.

[395] But this gets back to something that you and I were talking about when we first started here.

[396] So it's what the technology can do.

[397] So like I'm straight, if you're out there, you're going to hear me talk about this.

[398] Now, this may be a personal one -to -one conversation with someone in your audience.

[399] But somebody did something that is both flattering and absolutely terrifying to me recently.

[400] They went and they said it took hundreds of hours and they called a ton of my shows.

[401] And they made little clips of all.

[402] the things I said and then rearranged them and created an absolutely new show about politics, unfortunately, with me. And you cannot tell that they've cut this thing 9 ,000 different times, but it's my voice saying a whole show of political stuff that I never said.

[403] Made up a, he said, the guy said it took him hundreds of hours.

[404] Oh, he's crazy.

[405] Yeah, but you turn around and you go, okay, somebody's going to take a little time.

[406] And he said at the beginning, this is not Dan Carlin really saying this, but some guy's going to take like some obscure weird segment, put it on the internet, and I'm going to be chasing, you know, that group going, no, it's not me. That guy did it.

[407] Well, you don't even have to do that anymore if it's just audio.

[408] What they're doing now is you could take 40 hours of audio, which obviously you and I both have way more than that.

[409] They take that 40 hours of audio and they can essentially have you say anything, anything ever.

[410] So is that going to get us out of, this is the conversation we had?

[411] So can you say to somebody when they say, I heard Dan Carlin say he's all for child molesting on this clip?

[412] Can you say, hey, hey, that's not me. And look, there's all this stuff out there.

[413] I mean, is that going to get you out of trouble or is CNN going to run that story and you'll never be able to whack them all your way out of it?

[414] Once they understand that that technology is available, they're going to have to be at least questioning the source of it.

[415] But if they don't, you just sue the shit out of them.

[416] But I don't think they're going to jump on.

[417] It's sort of like photoshopping.

[418] It is like photoshopping.

[419] Do you remember when Oscar de La Jolla got caught wearing fish nets and high -heeled shoes with boxing gloves on?

[420] He was coked up and he was hanging around with some crazy Russian strippers and he was having a good old time and just thought it was fun to dress up like a girl and, you know, I thought it's funny but he was very deeply embarrassed by it.

[421] Obviously, he's Mexican, so Latino boxing fans were not taken very kindly to that.

[422] So he just said, look, that shit's fake.

[423] It's been Photoshop.

[424] Perfect.

[425] Yeah, look at it.

[426] There he is.

[427] Look.

[428] How do we know that's Ascadillo?

[429] He's having a good time.

[430] He's wearing a wig in one of them and a hat.

[431] All I ever think about is the left hook to the liver that Bernard Hart Hopkins hit him with and put him down on the deck and...

[432] I think about him beating up Julio Cesar Chavez where all the Mexicans were mad at him.

[433] Oh, past his prime.

[434] Is that the girl that he was with?

[435] Go above that, the two pictures with him and the girl?

[436] Yeah.

[437] Is that the girl that turned him in?

[438] Keep an eye on that bitch.

[439] If you're going to get a lap dance, she's going to tell people.

[440] So I guess they, she dead's her right there.

[441] That looks Photoshop, doesn't it?

[442] It looks sort of Photoshop, but not really, because it's his body.

[443] I mean, it's obviously an athlete's body.

[444] body, but he's wearing a skirt and look, they were partying.

[445] He's having a good fucking time.

[446] He thought it was silly to play dress up.

[447] What the fuck?

[448] You mean, look at the one in the upper right, though, when he's bending over?

[449] Look at that one.

[450] That one's rough.

[451] So wait a minute, so could you...

[452] See, it almost seems to me that it's the perfect cover, because now you can do anything you wanted to, I mean, if it's the Clinton ears and office and Bill Clinton's like, you can do anything you wanted to, just say it's Photoshop.

[453] That's not me. You kind of can, but they can tell.

[454] They can sort of tell.

[455] If you have an expert look at it, they can break it down.

[456] Sort of, yeah.

[457] But there's a lot of, the problem is, all you have to do is have a few people say it's real, and then a few people say it's fake, and the people that want it to be real.

[458] That's exactly right.

[459] Yeah.

[460] And how do you, but how do you chase it down?

[461] I mean, you would constantly be one step behind.

[462] Yeah.

[463] I mean, it's even this way, like, I was talking about piracy earlier and trying, you know, I have these old line advisors who will say things like, you need to be charging for your new shows and I have more money.

[464] And I sit there and go, our competition is piracy, man. Yeah.

[465] I mean, you've got to make everything so cheap and guilt them out so that they don't want to go pirate your stuff.

[466] But the idea of, I'm forgetting where I told me, I told you this was going to happen, didn't I've had these senior moments now.

[467] Yeah, I mean.

[468] Well, we had it with Obama's birth certificate.

[469] Yeah, or something like that.

[470] But the Obama birth certificate was a real issue because there was people that were examining in it and they said they were putting it through Photoshop, they're going, this is clearly fake.

[471] Look, here's the filters.

[472] You can see how it's been added in and edited it.

[473] but then you had a bunch of people that were actually Photoshop actually.

[474] No, no, no, dipshit.

[475] This is how Photoshop breaks down images.

[476] It breaks them down into layers.

[477] This isn't fake.

[478] This is the actual image, and this is how Photoshop processes images.

[479] But it didn't matter.

[480] All it took was enough people to show you the original Photoshop image and say, look, here's why.

[481] When we put it in Photoshop, you see all these layers.

[482] Clearly, it's fake.

[483] And then they just fucking run with it.

[484] They just run with it on their online forums and on their.

[485] there, they got the little Twitter group of right -wing people that want to think that Obama's a Kenyan Muslim, who's some sort of Manchurian candidate.

[486] There was a lot of that going on.

[487] But when I talked to people like Red Band, who actually understands Photoshop, he's like, no, this is what happens.

[488] And you put an image in Photoshop, it breaks it down into layers.

[489] Like, it shows you how, this is how you would edit something in Photoshop.

[490] I think the point you made earlier when you started talking about that, though, is the key one, which is if you want to believe this, here.

[491] your evidence and you're going to ignore.

[492] And if you don't want to, the opposite, I wrote a piece that never got published in the late 80s called The Death of Objective Truth.

[493] And I thought at the time that this was because you couldn't have arguments anymore because no one would accept your source.

[494] If you said, okay, the New York Times said this.

[495] When I was a kid, that was a starting point, right?

[496] Okay, if the New York Times says this, okay, we both believe it.

[497] Now we can have a conversation about what the New York Times says.

[498] Nowadays, I can't have political discussions with people anymore because it never gets past ground zero, right?

[499] We start, I make a premise, you challenge the premise, I bring in a piece of evidence, you say, I don't believe that evidence at all.

[500] Here's the other evidence.

[501] And boom, Jonah Goldberg, who's like a standard conservative columnist, wrote a piece a couple months ago where he said, I can't even have fun political discussions anymore because you never get past the beginning of the talk.

[502] Yeah.

[503] We disagree over the fact that isn't even what we're talking about, right?

[504] Here's reality.

[505] Now, let's talk about it.

[506] wait a minute, that's your reality, that's not my reality.

[507] And so you can't even have the kind of fun political discussions we had as kids or teenagers because there's a basic disagreement on what reality looks like to different people.

[508] Yeah, well, there's these tribal agreements.

[509] Tribal is the perfect word.

[510] Yeah, we have a tribal agreement to support the left.

[511] And you saw that with Hillary Clinton.

[512] There was so many people that were defending Hillary Clinton and people were calling me right wing.

[513] People that I know were like, what are you, a right wing or now?

[514] I'm like, no, Hillary Clinton is a fucking liar.

[515] Like, it's really simple.

[516] Look, I'm not saying that I like Donald Trump.

[517] I don't, but I'm saying you can't, just because you don't like Donald Trump, ignore the fact that the Clinton Foundation is super fucking shady, that Hillary Clinton is clearly a liar, that they definitely did something with the DNC to rig the primaries, to keep Bernie Sanders out.

[518] And now you have Donna, what is her name, Donna Brazil.

[519] Donna Brazil coming out about all this stuff too, and she's showing how it was all done and how Clinton sort of hijacked the entire DNC during the campaign made everybody dependent upon her campaign.

[520] The whole thing is tribal, because people didn't, they wanted so badly to get Donald Trump and make sure he wasn't in office that they were supporting someone who didn't even support gay marriage until 2013.

[521] I mean, she was a creepy person in so many different ways and still is.

[522] But she represents their team.

[523] So they had this blind allegiance and this tribal loyalty towards the left.

[524] I think that's a real problem.

[525] It's a real problem we have in this country where people just, I'm a fucking dolphins fan.

[526] It's dolphins to the death.

[527] And they get that way with the Cubs and they get that way with Democrats and they get that way with Republicans.

[528] And you're seeing it right now.

[529] You're seeing it right now with people that have an inability to, in any way, say anything negative about Donald Trump because he's the president and because he's a Republican.

[530] Well, you're not living in reality.

[531] There's certain things.

[532] There's certain things that we really need to be concerned about.

[533] Forget about politics.

[534] What about the Environmental Protection Agency standards?

[535] What about what they're doing in Alaska where they're trying to drill for minerals and they have this very important salmon river that they're going to drill right next to.

[536] And they're passing this without any advice from scientists.

[537] They're just going straight to it to try to make money.

[538] And people are freaking the fuck out about this kind of stuff.

[539] And Republicans, there's so many of them that don't want to say a peep.

[540] They don't want to say a word about it because he's their guy.

[541] He's on their team and people are super tribal about it.

[542] You know, this is part of the problem I've been having with my political show is I feel, and everybody thinks it's a Trump -related thing, but I think it's what you said.

[543] I'm having an issue trying to figure out if my basic understanding of how a system like ours is supposed to work is fundamentally flawed.

[544] You know, I always like to say that wisdom requires a flexible mind.

[545] But I got to live that too, right?

[546] So if I'm seeing stuff that doesn't back up my theory on how things are supposed to work, I feel like I have to sit back a little bit and go, okay, what are we seeing here?

[547] And you mentioned a bunch of fundamental societal changes we're going through when we started talking, whether we're talking about amateur content or everybody being able to broadcast and all the, we didn't even mention the fact that our broadcasts are international now, so you're not just talking to Americans anymore.

[548] And it makes me start to wonder about the basic idea of are we smart enough?

[549] And this goes against all my principles, so it's hard for me. But are we smart enough?

[550] And does our modern society require us all to be more intelligent or in touch or understanding of the facts than, for example, American voters 75 years ago had to be?

[551] I'm starting to, again, this isn't about Trump.

[552] It's about what you were talking about.

[553] The fact that we're having discussions over stuff that either isn't real or you don't understand the issue, but you have a very strong opinion one way or the other about it, or some talk show host you trust told you this is the way it is, so you're going to believe it.

[554] let's put it this way let's let's say we've always have had uninformed or tribal voters because we always have is there a tipping point where if you have you know if it's changing 10 % every decade that you say okay we used to have 20 % of people who really didn't know what was going on now we have 70 % of people I mean I'm starting to look back and go if you can't have basic discussions about reality can you do your job as an as a voter in this society um and I don't know I'm back backing up going, because I'm a Jeffersonian guy.

[555] So I believe, you know, in the old agricultural, old republic and, you know, there's a bunch of ideas that go to that, but part of it is a real trust in the people, okay?

[556] Right.

[557] And I can't decide if the trust I've always had in the people was misplaced from the get -go, or if the challenges of this modern society that we have and an entire generation and generations behind them, let's be honest, growing up in a world of 140 character conversations and all these different things, if that doesn't fundamentally change us in a way that you might say, listen, in the 50s, we could handle our voting responsibilities better than now because the challenges to human beings now are greater.

[558] I don't know, and I don't have an answer, which is why I'm sort of backing off and kind of observing instead of yacking about it for a change.

[559] Well, I mean, I think it's important to talk about it just because we're all trying to figure it out together.

[560] I think so.

[561] And I think that's really what's going on here, is that collectively we've never really had a voice the way we have now.

[562] It's never been 320, whatever it is, million people that can just chime in.

[563] It's not even that.

[564] I mean, we have foreigners and Russian bots influence.

[565] I mean, this has never happened in the old days.

[566] Do you remember it used to be considered like what your CIA would do or something to broadcast Radio Free Europe over the Iron Curtain.

[567] Radio Free Europe is a joke now.

[568] We all talk to each other all the time.

[569] And then you say to yourself, okay, if the Russians are doing this to us, aren't we doing this to the Russians?

[570] 100%.

[571] In other words, the fake news that's going on there may be a bunch of governments and corporations and everything.

[572] They used to say the best way to cover up your lie is to just flood the system with more lies because then everything's up in the air, right?

[573] Yeah, that makes sense.

[574] Yeah, and just it flooded.

[575] And I feel like we're flooded now.

[576] And so if you say to yourself, are we more flooded than we were 75 years ago?

[577] And if we are, does that require more from the average voter than we required 75 years ago?

[578] And let's be honest, the dirty little secret of the American system, as everyone who studies it knows, is that once upon a time, this voting franchise was actually in relatively few hands.

[579] Yes.

[580] And you had to, I mean, the old idea behind running a farm, I used to read this left -wing writer who said it was all part of, they hated poor people so they didn't want to.

[581] I don't know.

[582] I think it was more of a voting requirement that said, hey, if you can run a farm, you can't be too much of an idiot, so that'll be our requirement.

[583] you have to have this much land.

[584] Right.

[585] I don't know, but you do feel like as democracy's taken over, because we're really a republic, but we've been moving more towards a democracy for 200 -some years, if that happens and you turn around and go, now we have no qualifications.

[586] Because how would you implement them?

[587] Somebody would say, this is racist or a classist or whatever.

[588] But without any requirements, are we doing a half?

[589] I mean, how many people who are voting really understand what's going on?

[590] Well, what are those requirements?

[591] Like, think about it from telling you that the 20 -year -old kid in my neighborhood just bought a $7 million.

[592] house from YouTube.

[593] This kid is obviously very wealthy.

[594] But does he know what's going on?

[595] Do you have to be smart or do you have to be wealthy?

[596] Like, do you have to be a land owner?

[597] Do you have to be a farmer?

[598] Do you have to be a business owner?

[599] He's essentially a business owner.

[600] And if you're going to take a test, who designs the test, who grades the test, who decides what the questions of an informed voter, you know, would know would be?

[601] And are the right and the left going to agree in the parameters?

[602] Oh, it would be like gerrymandering.

[603] Well, gerrymandered the test.

[604] And, you know, these people, these 320 million people, this newfound responsibility of being able to chime in and communicate.

[605] They're used to just being able to talk shit at the gas station.

[606] They're used to being, they're not used to this being permanent.

[607] They're not used to this being like text that stays up on Twitter are crazy, dude.

[608] They're crazy.

[609] Crazy.

[610] I look at them all the time.

[611] They're crazy.

[612] They're fascinating, though, because I think this is one step.

[613] I think this is step one to this augmented reality situation that we're talking about.

[614] I think what this represents is a deeper and deeper connection that we're going to have with each other.

[615] And I think we're going to get past language and we're going to get past culture in some sort of a weird way and it might take 100 years to do this but I really believe there's going to be some sort of a universal operating system that allows us to exchange thoughts in a in a way that everyone understands some sort of a rosetta stone for the human mind oh I love that I love that idea I really think it's possible I think it's possible because I think look the new um uh Google pixel has earbuds and these earbuds translate languages in real time.

[616] Oh.

[617] So if you're in another country...

[618] That's fascinating.

[619] Fascinating.

[620] And someone's talking in Spanish, you will hear the translation in English in real time, and you'll be able to understand what they're saying.

[621] So that's what Esperanto was supposed to be once upon a time, right?

[622] It was going to be the common language, and we would all learn it, and because we would speak it, there would be no more wars and no more awful things they thought, and this is the digital Esperanto.

[623] I forgot about that.

[624] What was that?

[625] That was...

[626] Well, Esperanto's been around for a long.

[627] than this, but I mean, the big push came after the First World War was over, and the League of Nations was formed, and they were trying to figure out, how do we never have a World War again?

[628] Well, we have to understand each other, first of all.

[629] And, you know, what if you could understand all the speeches and all the demagogues and all these other countries, right?

[630] Yeah.

[631] That's a giant issue.

[632] I mean, the Tower of Babel is based on that.

[633] Yeah, yeah, totally.

[634] And that is a real issue.

[635] I can't read Korean.

[636] You know, I don't know what they're saying.

[637] I look at Russian language and I'm like, that is these characters are crazy.

[638] It's all, it's all problem because The lack of communication is one of the things that makes it easier for us to look at people as the other.

[639] Yes.

[640] Listen, that's the common problem because when people look at these regimes, we'll take the standard one, you talk about the Nazis, but there's a bazillion regimes like that.

[641] The first thing you do is you have to dehumanize the people you want to go after because obviously we have human feeling towards each other.

[642] But if you can say something, and I think this is what's been most depressing for me, is that we seem to be backsliding on how we see people.

[643] but I mean this idea that well for example one of the things I see all the time all the time and I don't know where it comes from on Twitter and everywhere else is this idea that the different races are inferior to white folks because white folks built all this and therefore we must and you turn around and go okay one how is that helpful two is that even true three so what so what I mean the so what part is we just go okay are you doing anybody any good with this I mean what are we at and truthfully I don't think most human beings think like this.

[644] We're trying to make a living.

[645] We're trying to get by.

[646] We're trying to get a date.

[647] We're trying to, you know, I mean, there's a bazillion things you have to do in this life.

[648] The idea that you have to be responsible for pushing back racism in America seems a heck of a lot of responsibility to put on an average Joe or Jane.

[649] Well, I think that these conversations are very, very important.

[650] And I think we're having them more so than ever before.

[651] And these conversations show how ridiculous it is to have blind allegiance towards people that have the same amount of melanin as you do.

[652] It's so fucking stupid.

[653] All human beings essentially either came from, actually there's some speculation that some of them might have come from Europe thousands of years ago as well, but we're talking about hundreds of thousands of years ago the very first homo sapiens they believe came from Africa.

[654] Everybody migrated out of there and moved wrong.

[655] We essentially came from the same source.

[656] So all this idea of race is just based on a particular amount of time in a particular climate that forced people to adapt to that climate.

[657] In the colder darker climates, you see paler skin.

[658] In the sunnier, hotter climates, you see more melanin.

[659] And the idea that these people that live with, have more pale skin are superior than the people that have more melanin is just patently stupid.

[660] It's just, it's a dumb idea.

[661] If you take into account all the socioeconomic factors that cause people to live certain ways, people that are isolated that live in certain tribal traditions, these things are all easily explained.

[662] And if you want to chalk it off to intelligence or the superiority of the white race, in 2017, you're a fucking moron.

[663] And it's a good thing that we can have these conversations.

[664] So you can expose these.

[665] All these Charlottesville people that you see walking around with fucking swastika tattoos, like, Jesus Christ, you fucking dummies.

[666] Those people that were involved in those riots and all that racial bullshit that just went on, these people, they need to see the reaction that the rest of the world has them.

[667] They are isolated and insulated in their weird little worlds, and when they go global with that shit, and they march with those tiki torches down the street, and people mock them and talk shit about them openly online, they get to understand how the rest of the world sees this ridiculous ideology that they subscribe to.

[668] This is the power of free expression and communication that we're experiencing in 2017.

[669] And this is the power to nip, a lot of this shit in the bud.

[670] If we can get past this tribal nonsense that we're all taking part of, this tribe, we're doing, there's tribal nonsense that's male versus female.

[671] There's tribal nonsense.

[672] It's white versus black.

[673] There's tribal nonsense that's left versus right.

[674] There's nationalism.

[675] There's all this tribal stupidity.

[676] And all of this stuff is being debated and exposed and it's happening in real time.

[677] And to you and I can't happen quick enough.

[678] It's still still too goddamn slow.

[679] It's still too frustrating.

[680] The idea that it's still around is still mind -boggling.

[681] This kind of racism, this open, blatant racism still exists in 2017.

[682] But it's way less prevalent than it was a thousand years ago.

[683] It's way less accepted than it was 2000 years ago.

[684] And I think that's a blippin time, as you know, but probably better than anybody that I know.

[685] Yeah, but you know, it's funny because there's a part of me that thinks that there must be something deeply embedded in the DNA or our code or whatever that that because it's either that or people run into this stuff and it appeals to them so let's say you know the first time you ever hear a speaker and look let me let me draw a distinction because when we i'm one of those people that actually buys into the idea of you know i'd love to get to a place where we judge people by the content of their character not the color of their skin but let's not pretend that it's only the white supremacist types that do that.

[686] No. We are so hung up on race that if you could say something like in 15 years, we are going to be a society that doesn't even notice race.

[687] Well, in 1968, folks like Martin Luther King might have thought that that was a great thing.

[688] Today, a lot of people would be like, no, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, we should still be noticing race for all the, you know, these people need help.

[689] I guess what I'm saying is, is that there's a pendulum, and I'm looking at this.

[690] I feel like we're right in the middle of this right now, so it's so hard to analyze it.

[691] So everybody take this with a grain of salt.

[692] But I wonder if there's not a pendulum involved.

[693] So, for example, I tend to buy into most of the theories, for example, about racism that have always been put out there.

[694] But I think some are less helpful than others.

[695] And I think they...

[696] What theories are you talking about?

[697] I'll give an example.

[698] And I think they come from academia because I think this is sort of what academics do.

[699] And I think that's their job.

[700] But a lot of times they'll come up with theories.

[701] So one of the ones that drives me crazy is white privilege.

[702] okay white privilege is true in the sense that like like one african -american guy said to me he said i would love to forget about race but white people won't let me right which is another he says every morning i wake up and reminded and you don't have to deal with that i get that and i and i approve and i understand it but here's my problem you have to be able to see how telling somebody that you were born with something that you didn't earn is going to be received on the other side right there are some people that have become these white supremacist types or anti -racial group because they're so upset about their perceived position, right?

[703] Like somehow you're blaming me for stuff that happened to.

[704] Now, true or not, it doesn't matter.

[705] And I always tell people, it doesn't matter what's true or not.

[706] It matters how that person reacts.

[707] And if you're explaining to them that, listen, you're born with all these unearned privileges and their reaction is, I'm starving here.

[708] I don't have a job.

[709] I'm living in a crappy apartment.

[710] How can you tell me that?

[711] Then it might prompt.

[712] And again, I'm analyzing from within the maelstrom that we're in now.

[713] But that might be a reaction, counterreaction thing.

[714] To say that we could have a society where you judge people on the content of their character, not the color of their skin, that might be as upsetting for an African -American activist as a white supremacist because this society right now pays really close attention to your race for all kinds of reasons.

[715] I mean, I'm one of those people that believes we're all going to be a nice tan color someday, you know.

[716] And so it's a moot point, but there are people out there who literally think it's life or death if we do become a tan people at one point, right?

[717] We have to preserve this race or this.

[718] I don't get any of that.

[719] No, that makes sense to me. That seems foolish.

[720] But it's very, it's consistent with the way human beings evolved.

[721] Yeah, I think tribalism is the perfect term.

[722] For sure.

[723] We lived in these small groups of people.

[724] Right.

[725] We looked like each other.

[726] And when we saw these blonde -haired dudes pull up in boats with battle axes, you're like, oh, shit.

[727] shit, they don't even look like us.

[728] Fuck, we've got to get out of here.

[729] That's literally what you had to worry about.

[730] I mean, you had to worry about someone who was the other.

[731] Well, and again, we forget in this time and place that the other didn't happen to be a skin color thing.

[732] I mean, you could be the Carolingian Empire that's being attacked by the Vikings, and to an outside observer, you all look like a bunch of blonde -haired, blue -eyed guys, but to them, the Vikings are the other, and in a tribal sense, there is inferior and awful and barbaric as anything you can think of.

[733] So we make the distinction now based on this or that visual thing.

[734] Yes.

[735] But throughout history, like you said, I mean, you could go to China and they have all sorts of different peoples in China that they recognize as the other.

[736] But if you're looking at them, they all look Chinese to you.

[737] Well, here's a perfect example where we have a blind spot of this was in Iraq.

[738] When we took over and killed Saddam Hussein and overthrew him.

[739] And then the Sunnis and the Shias went into a full -scale civil war.

[740] And everybody's like, whoa, whoa, what the fuck is going on?

[741] I thought you guys were all Muslim.

[742] So many people had no idea there was two competing sex of Muslims that lived in that area.

[743] They had no idea.

[744] There was a power struggle.

[745] We may be talking about the population as a whole, but come on, the people in the government understood this really well.

[746] I mean, this is why the first George Bush didn't want to go in and topple Saddam Hussein directly the way the Second Gulf War did, because he didn't want to own that mess.

[747] And we knew that those groups were there because we were encouraging them and funding them to over.

[748] overthrow.

[749] I mean, there was a big Sunni, I mean, a Shiite rebellion against Saddam at one point after the first Gulf War, which we were funding and hoping for.

[750] The Kurds have been for a long time, our friends, and we've been pushing for something there less than a state, but more than what they had under Saddam, because the Turks don't love them.

[751] Well, whenever you overthrow a dictator, you leave a power vacuum, and that power vacuum is never filled in a nice and calm and democratic way.

[752] I mean, look what's going on in Libya.

[753] Libya is now a failed state, and it is like a breeding ground for ISIS.

[754] And the reason why is because you had this tyrannical dictator, and we had him killed.

[755] We had Gaddafi killed, which is another great piece of evidence I used to point to with people with Hillary Clinton.

[756] Like, watch the interview where she is about to be interviewed.

[757] She's still on camera, but they're not, it's not, any of you hasn't officially started.

[758] And she's talking about the death of Gaddafi, and she's laughing.

[759] She's like, we came, we saw he died.

[760] Yeah, that's right.

[761] And she's laughing.

[762] This is not the kind of cavalier mindset you ever want to see in someone that possesses the power to overthrow a government.

[763] And someone who possesses the power to wield nuclear weapons.

[764] This is a person who's a chicken hawk.

[765] You're completely shielded from the idea of actually engaging in actual visceral combat yourself.

[766] You're outside in flying around in jet.

[767] having catered food, you're in war rooms, making decisions while you're in air -conditioned buildings.

[768] It's all bullshit.

[769] And these decisions that you make have massive repercussions for decades, if not centuries.

[770] Here's a thing that you talked about that I think is incredibly important in the wrath of the Khans.

[771] When Ginghis Khan took over Baghdad, Baghdad essentially was knocked into the fucking Stone Age and might not have ever recovered.

[772] That's true.

[773] And he just, the Mongols destroyed the irrigation system that had been around from time and memorial and would, and how complicated and advanced their civilization was at the time when the Mongols showed up and did all this.

[774] How few people knew this?

[775] I think the question of asking about dictators is really important because I think sometimes you have to ask how much of the fact that the country is held together is only because there's a dictator.

[776] So we'll use the Yugoslavia example because it's pretty classic.

[777] For those who don't know, Yugoslavia was a country made up of a bunch of different independent countries now.

[778] And they didn't necessarily get along.

[779] As a matter of fact, it's some of the oldest ethnic hatreds in Europe when you talk about Serbs and Croats and Kosovoz and Bosnian Muslims and Albanians and all the people in that area.

[780] They're historically at odds.

[781] But under certain governments, Tito, after the Second World War, formed a government where he essentially ruled with a government.

[782] an iron fist, but that's how you kept all these people from killing each other.

[783] So when you say Iraq is not even a real country because if you didn't have an iron -fisted dictator holding it together, it wouldn't be together, right?

[784] So then when you take the one lynchpin as awful, and Saddam Hussein was awful, awful.

[785] I'll give you a book to read that we'll just, you'll have to, it's the only book I've ever read that I had to read another book afterwards before I went to bed at night because it was so horrible.

[786] Wow.

[787] So he's evil.

[788] What's the book?

[789] It's called the Great War for Civilization by Robert Fisk.

[790] But he's a reporter on the scene.

[791] He would tell you what is scrawled on the walls and the prisons at Saddam Hussein's prisons that the prisoners would write in their own blood.

[792] It's horrible stuff.

[793] But the point is that if there hadn't been a regime like that, would you have even had an Iraq?

[794] So if you say to yourself, okay, this guy is the only reason this country is held together, what if you pull out that linchpin, right?

[795] And if you say, he's horrible.

[796] Yes, but if you could look into the crystal ball and find out, yes, but we're going to lose a million people in warfare between all these people.

[797] If you pull the Saddam Hussein character out of there too quickly, it's like a giant Jenga game.

[798] And if you pull the wrong piece, and that's what happened, right?

[799] And still happening.

[800] It's continuing to...

[801] Listen, Iran is the next...

[802] I mean, they're really gunning, for lack of a better word, for Iran.

[803] And you can see it.

[804] If you know how to read the news and you connect this dot with that dot, it doesn't provide a clear picture.

[805] But you say they?

[806] Do you mean the United States military?

[807] The United States government.

[808] And our friends.

[809] And why are they gunning after?

[810] after Iran?

[811] Well, Iran has been on our naughty boy list since 1979.

[812] They used to be our best friend in the region, even better than Israel early on, because the Israeli relationship really got tight after like 73, 74.

[813] But Iran, we overthrew a government there with the British.

[814] Kermit Roosevelt was one of the people involved in that, and overthrew a democratically elected regime under Dr. Mohamed Mosedeh, put the Shah back in power, his son.

[815] And that became our little You know, we had, if you look at geopolitics, it's all sort of like playing a risk game, you know, and you want to have a little territory on this side of the continent.

[816] And then another one on this side and have places.

[817] So if you have Turkey as a friend and you have Israel as a friend, then on the other side you have Iran as a friend.

[818] I mean, we had this whole area sussed for a while.

[819] And the 1979 revolution screwed everything up.

[820] And you could make a decent case that it's since 1979 that all this crap that we're dealing with today, including modern terrorism, at us stems from all that I mean that's the domino that begins tumbling that explains a lot of things including the 82 83 Lebanon involvement and all that stuff yeah it just seems like such a global mess when you look at all the potential pieces that are in place that could cause chaos it's money though dude it's money I mean there's so much you know I went to it I've said this before and it's like a violation probably of my of what I said I would do but I mean I went to a centcom meeting I was invited to this weird What is that?

[821] U .S. Central Command.

[822] I thought it's, I'll tell you this story one time because it was, I thought they were going to kill me. I thought it was an assassination attempt.

[823] And, you know, I'm not a conspiracy nut, but the whole story was really funny.

[824] But long story short, I end up at this Central Command planning meeting with 11 guys.

[825] It's me and 11 other guys and generals, I mean, it was chaired by the guy who's the defense secretary now, Mattis.

[826] So we sat there and they started talking about half of it was, well, what do you think we ought to do about this, that, or the other thing?

[827] And the second half blew my mind because the whole second half of the meeting was.

[828] about procurement.

[829] Now, procurement sounds boring.

[830] What it basically means is buying stuff, military stuff.

[831] And the meeting was kind of about how important it was that countries don't start shifting over from, say, our tanks to another country's tanks.

[832] And it wasn't because we wanted to sell them tanks.

[833] It was because we wanted to sell them spare parts for the tanks.

[834] It's the old printer model, right?

[835] Oh, we'll give you the foreign aid.

[836] Sure, we'll give you a lot.

[837] We're going to defend.

[838] You'll send all this stuff free.

[839] Yeah, but then who do you have to call for the spare parts right right if you're using u .s jets well who's making the parts for those and who's selling them so when you sit there and realize how much money's involved you're doubling down in a place like the middle east right you're doubling down because one you want to get the oil or you want to have you want to you want to you want to negate what's called um used to be called petro extortion petro blackmail because in the 70s and you and i are old enough to remember this when you had the long gas lines and all this when opec punished countries like the United States for supporting Israel, the first thing you realize when somebody can do that to you is, oh, my God, job number one has to be make sure no one can ever do that again.

[840] You can't control our foreign policy by saying you'll cut off the oil, because if you do that, we'll just come and take the oil, right?

[841] We'll make sure you can't shut down the Western world because you don't like our policies.

[842] Okay, I understand that a bit.

[843] But then you say, okay, not only are we in there for the oil, but these countries that are our friends in the region who help keep open access to the oil.

[844] These are places that should be using U .S. equipment.

[845] And if they're using U .S. equipment, we can sell them U .S. spare parts.

[846] So you're not only keeping the oil access, which is important to us, but you're also keeping the one industry in this country we still made, make a ton of money in, which is we still sell great military equipment and great military parts.

[847] And we send our advisors and our maintenance crews in every place all over the world to keep that stuff in running operation.

[848] That's doubling down.

[849] So you get the oil and you get the spare parts that you give away to them to protect the oil.

[850] So you're in this meeting with these people how how did you get okay well i'll tell the story because it's a fun story but it goes so so we get you know how it is we get email we get an email one day and we get a letter to our mailbox the letter looks like some what were you doing at the time just the podcast just you know what we do so they just said hey come on down we want to kill you no no it looks it looks like tell you about some shit you shouldn't know about well okay it even goes deeper i used to have a discussion board online and some dude came on the discussion board and was saying he was this giant hacker this famous hacker you would all know me if i told you and you know the board said you're an idiot you know you don't know you and the guy left the discussion board saying I'm going to show you what I could do you won't believe you just keep your eyes open for a couple of days you'll see what I can do so three days later this letter this letter three days later this letter arrives in our mailbox the same day I get an email saying we'd love to have you come over to Central Command and blah blah blah it looked like my daughter did it on her printer there was no like you know government seals it didn't look official at all and it was in Florida I'm going okay this is this hacker dude this is what he was going to do so so it says it's got a phone number to call so I call the phone number to call so I call the number and it doesn't even ring once and a machine picks it up and just says leave a message at the beep I'm going what the hell I'm telling my wife what the hell is this so I leave a message at the beep I hardly put the receiver down boom rings and somebody's on the other line and it's a guy with a German accent I'm going what you know the whole it's like some weird bad movie right and he goes no no no this is all legit don't worry you just show up at the airport there'll be a ticket waiting for you you take it to Washington DC there'll be a car waiting for you and I looked at my wife and I said and I'm going this hacker is just going to take a photo of me at the airport standing there like an idiot and then put it on the website she says just go to the airport when there's no ticket we'll know it's a scam so that's so crazy dude i wish i was talking you so there's a ticket right there's a ticket so now i got my bag i guess i'm going to dc from eugene oregon so i get on the plane i get off the plane there's no car so i call my wife i said there's no car this is all a scam i don't know what this is a heck of a lot of trouble to go through to scam me right right okay so she gets a call from the german dude in florida he's at the wrong gate.

[851] Go to this other gate.

[852] So I go to this other gate.

[853] A town car pulls up with a Middle Eastern driver.

[854] Oh, Jesus.

[855] Yeah, get in the car.

[856] So I get in the car.

[857] And then he starts driving through like side streets in the backwoods of Virginia or something.

[858] So I'm on the phone with my wife going, if you never hear from me again, I see a couple of landmarks here or whatever.

[859] See, he drops me off at this hotel in D .C. I still have, I don't know what I'm doing.

[860] I don't know why I'm here.

[861] I walk up to the front desk and I go, do you have a reservation?

[862] Oh, yes, Mr. Carlin.

[863] Hold on.

[864] And they come back with this packet.

[865] And they handed to me. this is your homework for tomorrow morning and I go what I go up to the room I open up this and it's all legit long story short it's all and there's people at this meeting you're not allowed to say but there's people that if they sat next to you would know exactly who they are and so I get to the meeting and it's it's all like pentagon military everything's confiscated at the door and you get this military guy who walks with you everywhere so if you have to go to the bathroom this dude has to walk to the bathroom with you and so it's a table in this room and mattis is at the head of the table and then a bunch of soldiers standing in like a circle around the table just sort of standing there so you've got like a cordon of soldiers and I'm sitting down there with all these other people and I have no idea why I'm there so I open up the packet and it's everybody at the meeting and everybody's got like three pages on their bio the honorable do do do do and then I open it up and then there's this little teeny piece of paper that says Dan Carlin podcaster and they went to like Wikipedia which is all wrong anyway and printed it and I thought oh yeah these august people at this meeting are so excited to be at this meeting with Dan Carlin podcaster, right?

[866] So the meeting goes on for a while, and then it breaks up, and all these people know each other.

[867] So they go off in their little corners to start talking during the lunch break.

[868] I don't know anyone.

[869] I'm sitting at this table by myself, and this officer comes up and goes, I bet you wonder why you're here.

[870] I said, yeah, I really would love to know why I'm here goes, that's my fault.

[871] He goes, I'm the one.

[872] He goes, we listen to the show.

[873] He goes, we're looking for out.

[874] This was all about getting outsider opinions on what you should do in the Middle East.

[875] And he goes, it was my, okay, but here's the other thing.

[876] I was...

[877] Outsider opinions on what you should do in the Middle East.

[878] Let's contact that guy that does a history podcast.

[879] Right, but it's a little different.

[880] And fly him out to D .C. Yeah, but here, there's your tax dollars at work.

[881] Okay.

[882] Okay, but it's, it's a little bit more sneaky than that because I was there with a guy who knows how this all runs, another guest.

[883] And we took the taxi cab to this place together.

[884] And he's a real cynical.

[885] He goes, let me tell you why you're here.

[886] This is all a cover.

[887] I go, what do you mean?

[888] It's a cover.

[889] He goes, it's a cover because these guys are required by law to solicit outside opinions for some of this stuff.

[890] So that's what.

[891] we're here for.

[892] We're going to give the, and what they're going to say is they're going to do exactly what they were going to do anyway, but they'll be able to say, we solicit to the outside opinion from all these different people.

[893] So I think that's what it was.

[894] What law is it that requires them to solicit outside opinion?

[895] But apparently they were supposed to think outside the box.

[896] And so they invited, and I was like, I was like, I was like, I was mandated?

[897] I don't know, but I was the real outlier.

[898] All these other people made sense.

[899] I was the guy that was like, okay, they were really getting crazy.

[900] Well, you wearing a suit or were you dressing like that with a baseball hat?

[901] Or were wearing a suit.

[902] You were.

[903] It was the last time I wore one.

[904] I have it's funny because they take this like commemorative photo of you at the end and then they say you can't show this photo to anybody why are you taking it yeah that's what I said so I can show my wife can you put it on the wall in your house I don't know it's on the wall in my house now so when you're standing there do you have like a badge on it says hi my name is Dan Carlin or anything just says Dan Carlin and then there's the dude who stands behind you the whole time the what does it say Dan Carlin hardcore history what does it say I don't know it's on my phone I'll show you later wow but but it was one of those get -togethers where you just, I really wasn't as prepared as I should have been because I was pretty darn sure the whole thing was a hoax.

[905] Right.

[906] You know, I mean, first of all, if you're going to send me a letter, can it look like a letter that the U .S. Does it have to look like something where you printed the label on your, you know, brother label maker printer or something?

[907] Do they always want to leave?

[908] Maybe they have multiple filters to leave in the possibility of plausible deniability.

[909] And the German guy, by the way, it turned out to be like a West German general that was cooperating with the U .S. government as part of an exchange program where we, but I mean, the whole thing seemed like, I just thought it was this hacker dude figuring out he's going to really embarrass me in front of the whole forum, you know.

[910] Oh, wow.

[911] Look at Dan Carlin at the airport thinking he's going to Washington, D .C. Yeah, exactly.

[912] That's what I thought it was.

[913] Some Operation Paperclip type shit.

[914] That's exactly.

[915] And snuck him over there.

[916] Yeah, and dumped him into a Virginia swamp.

[917] Wow.

[918] That's fascinating, man. So did they solicit your opinions?

[919] Did they talk to you about things?

[920] All I can say is that both, both Mattis and his his aide, which was Vice Admiral Harwood, they are, generals these days, are so good at PR, because you get this wonderful thank you note where they go, oh, it was so great to have you.

[921] Here's my, please contact us, and you're thinking, I mean, that's, it's like a PR thing.

[922] Yeah.

[923] And I mean, I do think there's a little bit of the PR involved, and I think, you know, has to be.

[924] Having the podcaster there might have been good for PR.

[925] Well, for sure.

[926] Maybe they thought it'd shut me up with my criticism, right?

[927] Bring you on in the inside.

[928] Yeah, you're one of our buddies.

[929] Yeah, now you have to be quiet.

[930] Remember when Dennis Miller became buddies with George Bush and you wouldn't make jokes about George Bush anymore?

[931] He's my friend.

[932] I give him a pass.

[933] Like, what?

[934] Yeah, exactly.

[935] You're a fucking comic, pal.

[936] What are you doing?

[937] Yeah, that's a fascinating thing that they would bring you over there.

[938] So you got to meet Mattis?

[939] Not only was he cool, but he knows his history, which, you know, I have a soft spot in heart, but he was talking about, you know, we're talking about the Middle East, and he's talking about the history of this and history of that, and I'm sitting here going, and, you know, I know that history pretty well.

[940] And I was sitting there going, don't they call him the warrior monk?

[941] I mean, he was, I found him fascinating.

[942] And I thought he really understood what I always hope these people understand, which is the limits of power.

[943] So you would say, Mattis was very good about saying, listen, we can't keep doing this and we can't keep doing that.

[944] And I thought to myself, that's right.

[945] I don't know how much the presidents listened.

[946] But, I mean, I remember thinking Mattis is right about that stuff.

[947] Well, I think he is listening.

[948] My friends that are in the military, almost all of them universally were very pleased that Mattis was taking over.

[949] Yeah, he's popular, especially, yeah, he's popular.

[950] Extremely popular, because they feel like they finally have support now.

[951] They felt like they were handcuffed during the Obama administration, and that there was this, you know, you had to go almost through a PR firm before any decisions were made.

[952] They had to, like, consult the ramifications publicly.

[953] Vietnam was like that, too, when they said Lyndon Johnson was picking the specific bombing targets.

[954] But here's the problem you have.

[955] If you realize, and if you don't, you're an idiot, that you will actually hurt your long -term goals.

[956] goals.

[957] If, for example, you hit a school and kill 200 little children, you realize, listen, the whole policy is really held hostage by the potential for a disastrous mistake.

[958] Because if the goal is to win hearts and minds, and listen, you're not going to, that's the only way to win this kind of thing, then you do damage to the goal with a mistake.

[959] And mistakes in war are inevitable.

[960] So everybody, I think, is just trying to be really careful, but it's hard to fight a war really carefully.

[961] And this war is particularly weird when it comes to that because of the use of drones.

[962] The use of drones has changed the entire idea of what war is because if you look at what happened during the Obama administration, this is one of the things that people don't like to talk about that are supporters of Obama.

[963] I believe the number is higher than 80 % of innocent civilians that were killed by drones.

[964] I think it's more than 80%.

[965] Imagine any sort of technique in war or anything else.

[966] How about policing?

[967] Let's just go for policing.

[968] Imagine if there were some criminals that were holed up in a building, and you had 100 people in the building, and 20 of them were criminals, and you killed everybody.

[969] So you killed 80 people that were just secretaries and plumbers and just folks doing their job, living their life, children, their families.

[970] You killed all those people to get to those 20 people.

[971] Everyone would freak the fuck out.

[972] If you did it physically yourself, if you ran in with a machine.

[973] machine gun and gunned everybody down.

[974] I had to kill everybody is the only way to get to the bad guys.

[975] Nobody would forgive you and it would be front page news and it would be a horrific crime.

[976] But it happens constantly when it comes to drone warfare in Yemen and parts of the world that we're not even supposed to be a war with.

[977] We're sending these flying robots.

[978] They shoot something called hellfire missiles like Jesus Christ.

[979] They're shooting hellfire missiles at these these tariff.

[980] that they're looking at a screen.

[981] And they're often in like the Midwest.

[982] I mean, that's where some of these things are...

[983] You know what it is, though?

[984] It's all part of...

[985] Listen, there's a term, and you military guys listening will all know it.

[986] It's called RMA, Revolution and Military Affairs.

[987] And RMA periods in time happen.

[988] So you imagine the period between no gunpowder and the mass use of gunpowder weapons.

[989] That's an RMA period in history, right?

[990] But normally, what appears to be fast, like the transition from no gunpowder, gunpowder to gunpowder is really relatively slow by modern standards.

[991] So you have several generations to get used to the changes.

[992] But the speed of the pace of change now is so quickly that by the time you begin to say, okay, we've been using the current weapons systems and set up for five years now.

[993] We think we're starting to understand it.

[994] It's obsolete, right?

[995] What I said, and this is so long ago that we've been podcasting a long time, Joe, but I remember years and years ago when we first started using these drones, I said, we're going to screw this up because we're using them the same way the United States used atomic weapons, which is as though no one else will ever get them.

[996] We are establishing the rules.

[997] And when other people get this stuff, those are going to be the rules they operate under two.

[998] But our attitude, and I've never understood this, but we have a very, maybe it's the, maybe it's how democratic republics work in the sense that we can only really think short term because the politicians are only rewarded short term.

[999] But I mean, if you say, listen, these are the goals of our drone program for the next five years, you're not incorporating what's going to happen when China gets drones.

[1000] And what I said at the time is, do you know how mad we're going to be if another major country uses drones the way we're using them now?

[1001] And it's the same thing with nuclear weapons.

[1002] Once other countries got nuclear weapons, we backed off and went, oh, well, we have to have to have some rules governing this now.

[1003] Well, but when we were the only ones with them, we would threaten to use them all the time.

[1004] Yeah.

[1005] You know, you better not do that.

[1006] We'll nuke you.

[1007] Easy to say when you're the only ones with it.

[1008] So when you talk about the drone warfare, I would suggest that the problem of collateral damage, for lack of a better word, is one we've been dealing with for a long time now.

[1009] I mean, once you talk about the strategic bombing of cities, first World War, it started, second World War, it was massive.

[1010] Then anything is a walkback.

[1011] So if you say something like, yes, Joe Rogan, sure, we killed those 200 kids at that school and it's regrettable, but that's an unusual thing.

[1012] It's not like World War II where we carpet bombed whole cities.

[1013] And they're right.

[1014] But is that the standard we can operate with?

[1015] Well, I would suggest that the question is, is does it hurt or help what you're really after?

[1016] If Joe Rogan's, God forbid, sorry for even going here, but if Joe Rogan's children were killed in a bombing raid that another country launched, there is nothing that they could do to stop Joe Rogan from hating them for the rest of his life.

[1017] And if Joe Rogan hating them means Joe Rogan is going to find a way to make you feel his pain, you just created another enemy while you were trying to eliminate enemies.

[1018] This is what's so scary about terrorism.

[1019] And you just changed not just the people that were directly affected, but the people that saw that as well.

[1020] The ripples of pain.

[1021] Giant.

[1022] Yes.

[1023] And again, all I tell people, and people get offended, Joe, I've never understood, people get offended where I say, just put yourself in the other guy's moccasins for a minute, right?

[1024] If you say, because what people say to me is, I had some guy get screaming mad at me saying, basically, he followed the dominoes and saying, are you saying we deserved 9 -11?

[1025] And I said, if that's really where you took that, if that's where your argument goes, I said, then you totally misunderstood me. I'm saying...

[1026] No one's saying deserved, but saying that this is probably what caused it.

[1027] Listen, why are we a target?

[1028] It's not wrong.

[1029] As a matter of fact, I would suggest it is the only...

[1030] Because they hate our freedom?

[1031] What does that even mean?

[1032] And I would suggest this.

[1033] While there are some people who say, listen, look at the way you have women on billboards, scantily clad.

[1034] Yes, there are people that hate that and that they don't want that either.

[1035] At the same time, in a lot of these countries, you were talking about Iran earlier.

[1036] Let's talk about Iran.

[1037] Iran's got two separate things going.

[1038] They've got the countryside, and they've got the cities, and they've got a ton of the population that's under 30, and in the cities, they'd love to dance, and they love to, you know, the Iranians are not like the, you know, you said they all seem like Muslims to us, but they're all very different from each other, and the Arabians, for example, are known to be kind of Spartan and Stoic, whereas the Persians, as they used to be called, are a fun -loving, food -loving, dance -loving, I mean, and they're very capitalistic, so in a funny way, and that's why we were so close to them for so long.

[1039] There's a natural affinity between us.

[1040] And I always say it would be pretty darn easy if we treated them right, the same way my stepdad said, you know, you can destroy the Soviet Union by dumping Elvis records, porn, and blue jeans on them, which kind of is what happened.

[1041] There's a way, I think, to approach this Muslim world thing, and let's not pretend it won't be totally destabilizing, because if you drop porn, blue jeans, and Elvis on those countries now, you're going to have a counter reaction with all these clerics and whatever that are freaking out.

[1042] But at the end of the game, you won't end up looking like the bad guy.

[1043] If you're bombing them, it's, it is so hard to look like the good guy when you're bombing people, you know.

[1044] And so if you could say to me, listen, Dan, these are killers who want to hurt us and we've got to take them out.

[1045] I totally get that.

[1046] But then I would say to you, you have to take them out in a way that doesn't screw up, you know, the main mission, which is let's stop people from wanting to kill us.

[1047] Right, like the way they took out Osama bin Laden.

[1048] Yeah, that's a bad.

[1049] You know, and listen, what that showed us, too, is that a lot of these people that are supposedly our friends in this war on terror aren't, and we knew this, and the Pakistanis especially, but I mean, they're not really that close.

[1050] They're being our friends because they want the spare parts for the tanks we gave them and all these kinds of things.

[1051] So, I mean, yeah, this global warfare thing, it's just, you got to wonder at what point in time is this ever going to level, is it ever going to normalize, is it ever going to calm down?

[1052] And what does it get us?

[1053] What does it get us?

[1054] What doesn't get us?

[1055] That's a song.

[1056] Well, look, I know what it gets some people.

[1057] And this is the problem our whole country has, doesn't it?

[1058] That some people are able to get government to respond to them because they give government money or what have you.

[1059] And then they can get what they want.

[1060] But does that correspond to what we need, right?

[1061] Do we need these wars?

[1062] I don't know.

[1063] I mean, when they say we need to protect the oil, well, you know, the whole oil climate has really changed since the 1970s.

[1064] I don't even think it's just to protect the oil.

[1065] The idea is to keep these people at bay so that not.

[1066] of them could ever consolidate and become some gigantic huge war machine that could threaten us globally.

[1067] You know what's, again, this is a military history major talking, so I think differently about this.

[1068] But in a sense, that would be so much easier for us to beat.

[1069] I mean, the funny thing is we know how to beat big countries.

[1070] Yeah, but do we know it?

[1071] But if we're engaging in thermonuclear warfare, nobody wins.

[1072] If we can stop them from ever getting to that point, that's the success.

[1073] The success is keeping them fragmented, keeping them beaten down.

[1074] that if we could do that, we could keep them.

[1075] But they are showing that they can destroy, you know, it's funny, there's two kinds of destroy your country.

[1076] There's destroy your country and leave it in rubble, which they can't do.

[1077] But there's destroy your country.

[1078] You know, the old line is if they hate our freedoms, well, they did a pretty good job limiting them, didn't they?

[1079] I mean, because we're, you know, I'm limiting them to ourselves to protect ourselves.

[1080] And I described it like fleas on a dog.

[1081] I mean, they're like fleas on a dog, and yet the dog can tear himself to pieces trying to get rid of those fleas and still not get rid of the fleas, right?

[1082] Right.

[1083] But it's, it really, I mean, terrorism is so effective because it requires people to act against human nature, which we can do as individuals, but it's very tough to get us all collectively to not act like human beings.

[1084] It requires us to act against our nature, which is, you punched me. I'm punching you.

[1085] Right.

[1086] And in a funny way, it requires us to be punched and to not punch back, I think.

[1087] But how does that work?

[1088] Right.

[1089] There's a book by Mark Kirlanski, who's a leftist for sure.

[1090] So just no going into it, what you're dealing with.

[1091] but it's a book on nonviolence and he's trying to to point out something which i've always tried to point out too nonviolence is a tactic and against certain things it's extremely effective right it's not effective against everything but sometimes it's it's a i mean mark if you could do to martin luther king what we could do to people now his his sitting uh for example one of the things you young people may not know is one of his effective uh protest was to go to these all white counters in the south where they wouldn't serve black folks and just sit at the counter and wait to be arrested.

[1092] And then when he was arrested, Time magazine would be there to get, and there's a great photograph of him being handcuffed just for the audacity of sitting at a soda counter, right?

[1093] It was very powerful.

[1094] But it was powerful because you saw violence initiated against somebody who was totally peaceful, right?

[1095] If today you could go up to him and just tase him or do something that was not physically violent, then he wouldn't get what he needed out of it.

[1096] that, which is he needed that photograph of him being physically manhandled for the simple, or like, not to change subjects, it's the same subject, but like the pictures that were coming out when I was a kid, you can open up those giant Life magazine books with the great photos of life, and one of them was famous.

[1097] It was a black protester in the south, Alabama or Mississippi, and he's standing there with his arms at his side, not resisting at all, and the police officer has sicked a German shepherd on him who is biting him, right?

[1098] And you look at yourself right there, and you go, okay, that photograph right there, motivated so much public opinion in a different direction but what if they didn't need to use a dog or a water cannon what if they could have just injected you from behind the guy falls limp and you just carry him off silently well you just diminished his power to make a deal oh yeah that's it that's it right there and you but that's up look how powerful that is but it's powerful because some guy is being violently attacked who appears to be doing nothing more than asking you know for his rights now if you didn't have that violence does that somehow change the message and make it less powerful they could have just injected him quietly taking him off to jail this doesn't happen and this made a big difference yeah that's a very powerful photograph well it's people who aren't there get a chance to understand the barbaric nature of this you get to see you're literally getting attacked by an animal that's on a leash for being black well i was going to say you would say well what did that guy do if he just murdered somebody we're all going okay well that's what you get pal but If all he's doing is saying, do I really have to sit at the back of the bus in 1965 or something, this kind of thing motivated a lot of people.

[1099] But if you, you know, it's like 60 Minutes did a great piece, I want to say 1992, 1993, where they were showing all of the new anti -protester weapons that were in development.

[1100] And what's funny is several of them have arrived.

[1101] One of them is the sonic cannon, which they deployed against anti -New World Order protester types of it.

[1102] Isn't that what they used against people that were in Cuba?

[1103] Wasn't that something?

[1104] No, there's a rumor that there was something used in people, but that hasn't been figured out yet.

[1105] But this was, this sonic cannon thing where you can target.

[1106] Right, but something got used against U .S. diplomats in Cuba, right?

[1107] Yeah, well, they said they lost their hearing or something, and they assume it was the government that did.

[1108] Yeah, they were fucked up.

[1109] Like, they couldn't physically hear it.

[1110] Is that what it was?

[1111] Yeah, something like it's not like a siren.

[1112] But you're, see if you could pull that up and figure out what the fuck that was.

[1113] Imagine instead of that powerful photo that made a difference, imagine if you could have just aimed the sonic cannon and people leave because it's painful.

[1114] Well, does that reduce the value then of that nonviolent protest that was so powerful?

[1115] Well, this is what they're doing this right here.

[1116] This is really weird.

[1117] So a group of American diplomats in Havana, Cuba, have suffered severe and unexplained hearing loss over the past year, which U .S. officials believe was caused by a covert and advanced sonic device.

[1118] So this is something that we're not even aware of.

[1119] Yeah, but we have those devices.

[1120] That's why they might know.

[1121] Well, but do they just not want to comment on that we possess these things you think?

[1122] Oh, but we know we've deployed them.

[1123] They've been deployed.

[1124] They don't know what this one is, right?

[1125] So they should know.

[1126] Anyway, the device admitted a sound that was not audible to human ears, they added.

[1127] It would indicate that it was most likely an infrasonic or ultrasonic weapon.

[1128] Infrasonic weapons can cause physical pain without detection, though they usually target the entire body, than rather just the eardrums.

[1129] Wow, how fucking bizarre.

[1130] That's like a hydrogen bomb.

[1131] And a different kind of crowd control, though, you know?

[1132] And if, you know, for example, the famous Gandhi assault march, which is considered one of the big moments in nonviolent history where he had all of his supporters walk into the clubs of the authorities.

[1133] And he told them, don't resist at all.

[1134] You just go down and then let the next row get hit two.

[1135] And then the next, because that was a powerful sign of, you know, who's right and who's wrong in this whole thing.

[1136] But if you could just deploy that sonic cannon and all those people had so much pain in their ears, they just had to leave and nobody got beaten.

[1137] There was no blood.

[1138] There was no dogs.

[1139] There were no water cannons.

[1140] Does that undercut the power of nonviolent protest to make change?

[1141] It's fascinating that that might have been in the minds of the people who designed this thing, right?

[1142] Well, it's so abstract.

[1143] The idea of this sonic weapon that you don't hear, but that affects your hearing and it causes injury to your body, but you don't hear like that's not going to affect us because it doesn't it's not a bat right a bat that hits a person we understand it where you get a picture afterwards that you can circulate look what they did to me well remember the Chicago convention in 68 that everybody you know where the protesters were beaten so badly on television and all that stuff um if you didn't have to beat them does it lose a lot of its power if you just deploy the sonic cannon and everybody goes away because it hurts it seems to me like you would have just diffused one of the most important movement i would call that one of the big big political things that happened in the United States in the past 50 years, and if you didn't, if there was no actual violence, it's not a thing.

[1144] Isn't it fascinating that we have to see something where we go, oh, I know what that is, that's bad, and then everybody gets outraged and then change happens.

[1145] Isn't that how the Arab Spring story, right?

[1146] That's the thing about drones, right?

[1147] It's that we're not there.

[1148] Right.

[1149] Right.

[1150] One of the reasons why you can justify this is it's not actually done by a human who's on the premises.

[1151] There was talk during the big bombing campaigns of the Second World War when they were talking about the morality of this.

[1152] And Churchill famously saw the movies showing some of these German cities just leveled.

[1153] And he said, are we beasts?

[1154] Now, this is the guy who ordered it, right?

[1155] But when he actually saw what happened.

[1156] Well, the guy I grew up next door to was almost an astronaut, but he was a fighter pilot.

[1157] But they conducted bombing runs in Korea and Vietnam and stuff.

[1158] And he said to me, if you actually had to see the people we killed, he goes, we wouldn't have done this.

[1159] but you didn't have to see them.

[1160] There was a distance.

[1161] And there's a book called On Killing by a U .S. Army psychologist, David Grossman's name, where he talks about killing in terms of distance.

[1162] Everything is distance.

[1163] So there's intimacy range.

[1164] That's when you're killing somebody with a knife close up.

[1165] And then the farther away you get, the easier it is to do the deed, he says.

[1166] And the less damage you have later, psychologically.

[1167] Isn't there an analogy to social media here about people that can say horrible, evil, cruel shit to people online?

[1168] That's actually a good connection.

[1169] And they can't do it in person.

[1170] Or you wouldn't do it in person.

[1171] It wouldn't.

[1172] It wouldn't even be in your character to do it in person.

[1173] Not even in your case.

[1174] In other words, you almost have like a dual character that comes out when you know you don't have to see this person.

[1175] And truthfully, all I really want from Joe Rogan is to answer to answer me. And the best way he can answer me is if I call him something, you know?

[1176] Well, anybody who does anything negative where the public is aware of it, like say this Louis C case thing or something like that where you can immediately find and target that now I have a reason to go after this person.

[1177] There's a, it's a, it's an acceptable target.

[1178] It's an agreed upon target.

[1179] And then people from all over the world can just pour their vitriol and anger and bitterness and whatever it is because they have some sort of a righteous anger that they can, well, there's a reason I can be angry at this person.

[1180] Or I saw what Kathy Griffin did when she held up that head of Donald Trump.

[1181] I have a reason now.

[1182] I mean, I'm not standing up for Kathy Griffin because I think what you.

[1183] She did.

[1184] It was stupid.

[1185] But she was just devastated by that.

[1186] I mean, they went after her, like, death threats and hate and anger.

[1187] You know, Joe, you've taught me a lot about the whole social media thing, though, because I would come in here.

[1188] The audience doesn't know this, but I would have questions about that stuff.

[1189] And you've thought more about this than I have, and you were able on several of the kids.

[1190] I've quoted you where, you know, I mean, because I try to make sense of this stuff.

[1191] And like I said, you're farther along, I think, the road of thinking about some of this stuff.

[1192] And it gave me some shortcuts.

[1193] But, I mean, I do because I think it's a fascinating phenomenon because it's never been available.

[1194] I mean, when do people ever have this kind of power?

[1195] Right.

[1196] Your average guy locked in his basement, you know, never goes out, but he can still.

[1197] talk to the world?

[1198] See, that's the problem.

[1199] We have the stereotype of this loser in their basement, which is not true.

[1200] You're right.

[1201] No, it could be a guy with a family who's at work.

[1202] Yeah.

[1203] Or his wife.

[1204] Or his wife.

[1205] Or his kids.

[1206] Anybody just saying horrible shit.

[1207] I mean, there's just, there's so many options for people to be nasty to each other.

[1208] And this absence of social cues, absence of like being in the physical presence of someone, this is an alien way of communicating.

[1209] It's not normal.

[1210] It's one of the reasons why I always hated letters.

[1211] Because people could write some, like, I'd get letters from an ex -girlfriend.

[1212] I'm like, what are you talking about?

[1213] This is not, this is a bullshit depiction of our relationship.

[1214] You've made this romanticized idea of what this is all about.

[1215] Like, I don't like letters because someone can't be there to go, wait, what?

[1216] That didn't happen.

[1217] Yeah, it did.

[1218] No, don't you remember?

[1219] You said this.

[1220] Oh, yeah.

[1221] You know.

[1222] There's a physical proximity question, too.

[1223] Like, you're not going to go up to this guy and say this stuff to his face because he might knock you in the head.

[1224] The good thing about a letter is maybe if someone is an honest person, they can express themselves in a letter in a way that they would have a difficult time doing it in person.

[1225] Some people are less verbal too.

[1226] Yeah, they feel embarrassed or they have when you're writing something, you have the opportunity to really think about your words and edit and go over it and then decide, this actually represents my real thoughts and, you know, as imperfect as it is, send it.

[1227] but when you can do that any moment of any day with your phone in the middle like someone's talking yeah hold on a second hold a second fuck you fucking asshole and just tweet the trouble these athletes or celebrities get in with what was obviously I'm just about to board the plane so I'll just and boom they get off the plane and there's a huge firestorm because something was taken wrong or not the way you meant it sure yeah yeah I mean it's a weird time and I think this is I think we're at an adolescent stage of communication.

[1228] That's what I think.

[1229] I think we went through all these rudimentary steps, right?

[1230] We went through grunts, and then we had verbal language, and then we had written language, and then we had the printing press, and then we had the ability to broadcast, and then we had social media, the ability for anybody to broadcast, and I think as we move into augmented reality, and what I've been thinking about more and more is this Rosetta Stone idea, this idea that we're going to come up with some sort of a way of communicating ideas that's not limited, and restricted to language.

[1231] As a military history fanatic, do you know what I instantly think of?

[1232] I instantly think of the fact that could you start a war if one country's average Joe's and Jains on social media or whatever passes?

[1233] Start really disagreeing in their thousands and tens of thousands and 50 ,000 with people in another country?

[1234] I mean, could the Russian people via social media anger the American people via social media to such a degree that countries get pulled into common?

[1235] conflict.

[1236] It's never been possible, so you can't know.

[1237] But you turn around and go, that would be an interesting, you point out quite correctly that we're essentially guinea pigs here right now.

[1238] Yes, which is what I tried to explain to my daughter is that we are in an era where we are seeing what happens when you hand humanity these tools that they've never had before.

[1239] And there's two ways of looking at it.

[1240] The optimistic one, this is going to free up, open up all, or the pessimistic ones would say maybe something like, can our representative democracy handle this?

[1241] And not because we can't handle communication, but maybe like you would say, the kind of communication that we have where these are little teeny chunk.

[1242] We're not having deep, you know, philosophical coffee house, Ben Franklin kind of conversation.

[1243] We're having 140 character discussions.

[1244] What can you say in 140 characters other than you're an idiot?

[1245] You're wrong.

[1246] It's fake news.

[1247] You know, and then start swearing at them.

[1248] Well, they're going to 280 now.

[1249] I'm sure that will make all the difference in the world.

[1250] I wonder if it does.

[1251] I really think that it'll shift.

[1252] I can't clear my throat in 140 characters, so it'll help me. I think it's going to cause a shift.

[1253] I really do.

[1254] I believe that the shift from 140 to 280 will make people.

[1255] It'll give people the opportunity to be more clear with their ideas.

[1256] I will say that it's disheartening for a person like myself who enjoys depth because, you know, the history shows are so long because I enjoy the depth.

[1257] To see people confronted with like a page of text going, oh, too long to read.

[1258] Yeah, this isn't that funny?

[1259] But you do go, okay, can you really be a useful citizen as a voting member of this informed citizenry and do your job if you see a page of text?

[1260] I mean, the Constitution today would have to be 140 characters, you know, for most of the people today to go, okay, I'll sit down and read.

[1261] that one of the things that your podcast has done that's amazing is giving people information in a very entertaining form that they would never sit down and read a book about there's a ton of people probably me included that have never read as much about jenghis khan as i got from your podcast but you went see and this is what i hope for because we always say i i don't i like the idea of being an appetizer for people on history if i introduced somebody to the mongols and then they went you can go to our website we put all of the materials we use and we link directly directly to a place where you can get them.

[1262] So if you actually went out and bought some books on the Mongols after that, or that created an intellectual relationship between you and the Mongols, where for the rest of your life, ooh, this is a Mongols.

[1263] They found Jenghis Khan's tomb or something.

[1264] You're into it because you know about it.

[1265] Well, I mean, that's awesome.

[1266] Yeah.

[1267] In terms of, I mean, I heard, I got a great letter.

[1268] This is the highlight of my career was this letter from the wife of a historian that we used in the World War I series.

[1269] And she wrote me this letter saying, you have no, this is like very self -serving, but you have no idea what you're doing because history is something that not a lot of people were getting interested in.

[1270] And now we have people showing up in the classrooms becoming history majors because they got interested in what you were doing.

[1271] So if we're poking people with a stick and getting them interested in this subject, do you know how cool it would be to have that, you know, when you're all dead and gone and somebody says, what did you do?

[1272] He said, well, he got a lot of people really interested in history.

[1273] I think that's the coolest thing in the world.

[1274] Well, I think you've done that.

[1275] But it dovetails with what we were talking about.

[1276] This whole new media, will it be good, will it be bad?

[1277] And it's probably going to be both, right?

[1278] But the idea that people could get interested in history again because some idiot in his garage was talking about it.

[1279] I think that's really cool.

[1280] It's not going to be everybody, but it's going to be a lot of people.

[1281] And for those people, it was going to have a profound effect, and me included.

[1282] And I think that this new media, this thing where nobody is telling you, hey, Dan, it's time to do a podcast on blank.

[1283] It's time to, you know, cut back this, edit that.

[1284] You're doing it based on your interests, your knowledge of this.

[1285] There wouldn't have been this show if we'd had yet.

[1286] There was anybody else.

[1287] There wouldn't have been this show.

[1288] I would have never been able to pull this off.

[1289] Not in a hundred years.

[1290] It's what we have is this unique opportunity to express ourselves in, like, with a, with a personal viewpoint.

[1291] Like this is your personal interest.

[1292] It's a purity.

[1293] There's a purity.

[1294] It's the difference between blended whiskey and like a single malt where, where if, like, when I get these TV offers and, and, I, you know, you've had billions of them where you go and you talk to these people and you realize instantly, if I go do this with them, they're going to homogenize it, dumb it down, they're going to and you sit there and go, they're going to make something far inferior to what I'm able to do myself because they really don't understand why it works anyway.

[1295] In other words, like you said, you couldn't have been able to do this show.

[1296] It's funny to me that the industry, for example, doesn't realize what it is that people like about what you do and figure out a way to, you know, they're not open -minded enough to say, listen, Joe, come and do this TV show, which is a lot like what you do.

[1297] I don't get it.

[1298] I don't understand how people like you and people like me and all the people that do what we do haven't created more of an understanding in the old media.

[1299] I think they're getting it.

[1300] Do you think?

[1301] Well, eventually there's no way to avoid it.

[1302] They're getting it now.

[1303] I see like when I get offers for things.

[1304] I understand things.

[1305] Like, oh, they're seeing what I'm doing.

[1306] And they're going, hey, we want a piece of this.

[1307] Yeah.

[1308] How do we?

[1309] And then, but if you do a piece of it.

[1310] But can they pull it off?

[1311] But it would be the same thing.

[1312] This is the problem.

[1313] If they did this, like, say, say, hey, we want to put your.

[1314] podcast on blah blah blah network okay well now I have a bunch of people that I'm talking to that I have to run things by now I have a bunch of people that say I just think that if you dress nicer yeah and then oh Jesus okay now now it's not me I'll tell you story so so finally the TV people they're always promising things right oh you can do it any way you want you so far so finally one of these companies did it so many times I said okay I'll go forward with you and we'll start with this project great so I'm in a particular U .S. city in the south and we're cutting this sizzle reel and I said now this is going to be hardcore right you got me you want hardcore history yes we all the history channel everybody wants it okay so I said so here's what we're going to do so the the sizzle reel was on the bombings in the late 60s early 70s of like the new left so the weather underground and all those people right so I'm going to do this and I said I said the hardcore history way to do this though is to imagine that era with today's anti -terror laws and the way we treat terrorists today.

[1315] So we were filming like recreations of like Abby Hoffman in his American T -shirt being waterboarded by CIA agents because if we applied to the modern anti -terror to the way that the Americans, and they flipped out.

[1316] They said, listen, no, there's a lot of red southern states that would not go for that and all these guys.

[1317] And you wanted hardcore.

[1318] That's, that's, no, they didn't really want hardcore.

[1319] They wanted to get me through the doors and then we're going to make some group think thing, you know, or the group thing for people.

[1320] Yeah, I had me. No effort in group think creativity.

[1321] Well, group think would be fine if you respected all the think in the group think.

[1322] They were all as good as you.

[1323] Yeah, well, they don't have the sensibility.

[1324] They're not, most of these people.

[1325] Most of them are kids, from my standpoint, as an old man. And bean counters.

[1326] They're being counters that are trying to protect their own jobs.

[1327] What they're worried about is the numbers.

[1328] We got the dailies in.

[1329] We got the numbers in.

[1330] You're trending really well in 18 to 34, Dan Carlin.

[1331] And it's not about building an audience over the long haul.

[1332] Like you said, it's literally about the next rating period.

[1333] You've got to jump in out of the gate big time, and you have to have billboards and a big push.

[1334] Like, if you notice any time a show launches, you'll see Billboard, like, there's this new show called White Famous, and it's on Showtime.

[1335] And everywhere you go, there's these giant billboards for White Famous.

[1336] They're not letting this thing build slowly.

[1337] They want to push it out of the gate with gunpowder.

[1338] Boom!

[1339] And they're hoping that with that momentum, the quality of the show will add to the momentum, and then you're going to build up and a bunch of people will catch on and eventually it'll get rolling.

[1340] But in order to do that, they want to take away all the jagged edges, smooth everything down to make it aerodynamic, make everything like super homogenized.

[1341] I mean, that's what they do with every single sitcom.

[1342] Oh, and what they'll do to your career, like the last physical fight I almost had with another adult male was a radio program director.

[1343] And the radio program director came into my town new.

[1344] And, you know, if you've ever been in radio, when they come into town new, the first thing they're going to do is change everything is they've got to put their own stamp on it or why are they there?

[1345] So this guy comes in and he goes, we're going to rebrand you.

[1346] He goes, I want everyone to think of your name and instantly think of the brand.

[1347] And I'm already, you know.

[1348] The brand.

[1349] Yeah, okay.

[1350] So here's what he said.

[1351] So I hate to say this because this will become a meme online that I will have to live with the rest of my other.

[1352] But it's an absolutely true story.

[1353] So the guy says to me, he goes, listen, imagine a billboard that says Dan Carlin.

[1354] He fucks chickens.

[1355] And I said, excuse me?

[1356] He goes, yeah, I mean, so that anytime anybody thought of you, they would think, okay, he's the chicken fucker.

[1357] And I'm going, wait a minute.

[1358] Really?

[1359] He really said that?

[1360] Yes.

[1361] And I said to him.

[1362] I said, two things, dude.

[1363] I said, the first thing is, I got to live in this town, right?

[1364] So really, you want that to be the first thing people think?

[1365] Okay, the second thing is, I got to have a career after this stupid idea of yours fails, right?

[1366] And you're like, no, you don't understand.

[1367] We're building a mental image.

[1368] You'll be a household name.

[1369] I said, yes, I'll be the household name, the guy who fucks chickens.

[1370] And finally, you know, he was after me. I finally said, I said, dude, do you want to step outside right now?

[1371] I mean, my wife laughed at me because I'm already an old man when I'm saying.

[1372] She'd go, that would have been great.

[1373] I said, no, this guy was as old as I was.

[1374] But, I mean, I was so incensed and so angry that this guy would be so cavalier.

[1375] With your future.

[1376] Yeah, and as a human being and everything?

[1377] Family, I mean, my kids.

[1378] How are they going to spell fucker on billboards?

[1379] You know what?

[1380] That's a really good question.

[1381] They might have had his euphemisms.

[1382] But, I mean, you think about that.

[1383] You think, okay, as you said, this guy's career depends on him making a difference.

[1384] I'm just a tool in his career.

[1385] Yeah.

[1386] Right?

[1387] So you start to realize that when you do the podcast, and it's your podcast, the person that you're worried about here is you.

[1388] And not just that, the ideas that are coming from you are not just yours alone, but you own them, right?

[1389] So when I say something that's stupid, I own that.

[1390] It's not like some station said, oh, listen, push.

[1391] You know, I got into a fight over the O .J. Simpson thing, when the O .J. Simpson trial is going on.

[1392] And everybody, it's all you hear anywhere.

[1393] So I didn't talk about it.

[1394] And so they got on me about not talking about it.

[1395] I had a big fight.

[1396] And I walked into the studio, and I said, fine, I'll talk about it.

[1397] I said, you know, the whole topic was, isn't there just too much damn O .J. Simpson everywhere you go?

[1398] Oh, they were at the, you know, there was a window.

[1399] We were like zoo creatures.

[1400] And they had this window they could bring all the sales clients to watch us perform.

[1401] And I'm doing there.

[1402] And there's like five executives in the window just waiting until the next commercial break because we're going to be.

[1403] Oh, God.

[1404] But, I mean, that's why radio was so awful for me. And I didn't get fired.

[1405] I must have done a good enough job to stay employed.

[1406] But it was go home and pull your hair out.

[1407] Constant tension.

[1408] Constant tension.

[1409] Imagine this is a good example for people.

[1410] Imagine if you were painting a picture.

[1411] You had an idea to paint the Mona Lisa.

[1412] Right.

[1413] And you had a bunch of people standing over your shoulder like, hey, make her nose smaller.

[1414] Exactly right.

[1415] You know, her eyebrows are too bushy.

[1416] She looks too Italian.

[1417] You know, like there's a bunch of fucking people if you're dealing with these things that are just essentially trying to justify their jobs.

[1418] I mean, you're always having that whenever you're dealing with any sort of an executive position.

[1419] And one of the things that you realize is how many people are unnecessary.

[1420] I did Bill Simmons show.

[1421] you know bill simmons had a successful podcast and that podcast led to an hbo show and i had a great time on the show no no i like him he's a very nice guy very smart guy but when i did his show i'm like there's a hundred people working here there's fucking people everywhere i get that you need cameramen i get that you need sound men but then who are all these other fuckers you got all these executive type people and office people and all these people running around i'm like you've you've made this way too complicated like the reason why his podcast is so successful is because it's him.

[1422] It's his singular vision, his idea.

[1423] You're getting it from this person.

[1424] And when you know that you're getting something from a person and you like how that guy thinks, then it becomes interesting.

[1425] But when you're not really getting it from that person, you've got a bunch of people holding cue cards and standing behind them and you're creating this bullshit thing.

[1426] Well, my wife said today, we're in the hotel room and she turns on the TV and Ryan Seacrest is on and he like does 10 ,000 things a day, you know, on multiple shows.

[1427] And she says, I don't know how he does that.

[1428] That's amazing that he can do all these kinds of things.

[1429] And I said, but how much of it's really Ryan Sechrest?

[1430] I mean, how much, you basically have to have everything ready to go when you walk into a room and who did that.

[1431] You know what I like listening to Ryan Sechrest?

[1432] Why?

[1433] I like listening to him on the radio because it's almost like listening to an alien that tries to be like a woman who's a secretary.

[1434] because he does these contests like call on call in right now and like you know have someone to call in I like when I get to work and then I can go to the bathroom and look at my phone hey everybody likes that all right well it's next and you're like hey you won two tickets to this all right congratulations all right Monica nice talking to you it's like he's not even a fucking human on those things it's like he's figured out a way to hit this whoa whoa this droning sound that resonates with the people that live in that existence, with the people that are stuck in traffic and that are checking their phone every 15 minutes.

[1435] Those are the people that are on Instagram 35 times a day.

[1436] You know, that's the average amount of time a person looks at Instagram, 35 times a day.

[1437] Ryan Seacrest fucks chickens, dude.

[1438] He's figured, well, if he fuck chickens, he would be, like, outrageous.

[1439] Like, that would be like, the guy who said you're going to be the chicken fucker, he'd probably listen to Howard Stern.

[1440] He's like, this guy's outrageous.

[1441] We need to get Dan Carlin to be outrageous.

[1442] You're a chicken fucker.

[1443] Well, that is the other thing with the homogenization.

[1444] It's always about imitating somebody who's found a good formula, right?

[1445] For sure.

[1446] And I will say this about Limbaugh.

[1447] Limbaugh's right when he says that there will be a wing in the talk radio museum devoted to him one day.

[1448] But what he always says, which I find interesting, is he tried to do what he does now multiple times and got fired because their attitude was what is, and we're not taking any chances with this.

[1449] And then he says, the minute I'm successful, every consultant out there is telling everybody to be just like him.

[1450] Yeah.

[1451] In other words, if you really, and if you're a podcaster out there or thinking about doing something in the new media, understand that there is something so valuable about what you specifically are bringing to the table.

[1452] And the minute you ask these other people what to do, they're going to, they don't know what's specific about it.

[1453] They're going to go and say, well, we can pull a little piece of what this person does.

[1454] And eventually, it's not even you.

[1455] One of the great things I always thought about hardcore history is that over time you self -select your audience.

[1456] I think you do that with every podcast.

[1457] So you say something like, okay, I'm only going to talk about the stuff I'm interested in.

[1458] Well, what you know then a year later is whatever fans are listening to you, that's a pretty good gauge because they're there because they like what you're.

[1459] So I don't have to sit there and go, gosh, this would be a popular topic.

[1460] I just do what I want to do.

[1461] And over time, you've developed an audience that likes that.

[1462] I also think that there's something happening when you do have this, when you have a singular vision, like one person who's driving this thing, right?

[1463] and over time, I feel like people get a sense of you in a way deeper sense than just listening to your words.

[1464] They're chunking data.

[1465] They're adding up all of the communication that you've had.

[1466] They're analyzing how you see different scenarios.

[1467] They're analyzing how you navigate certain.

[1468] And they're seeing you when you're tired.

[1469] They're seeing you when you're feeling in a great mood.

[1470] And then maybe they're seeing you when something bad.

[1471] happening.

[1472] You don't feel so good.

[1473] You know, there's, there's, and all this is like, so they get to know you and there's very, there, there's an intimate understanding of you that is almost impossible to get when you're hosting the tonight show or you're acting in a television show.

[1474] Or doing a five minute piece of content opposed to a three hour piece of content.

[1475] Yeah, there's a weird thing.

[1476] And I think that's one of things, like if people know me, if you listen to this podcast long enough, you know me. And you might not agree with me and you might think I'm wrong or I'm a blowhard, but you know I'm honest.

[1477] Right.

[1478] I might be wrong, but I'll tell you if I think I'm wrong, if I think I'm wrong, I'm the first person going to go, I think I'm wrong.

[1479] I'm not, I'm never going to cover that up.

[1480] And you shouldn't believe people that don't think they're wrong.

[1481] You can't.

[1482] It's not good for you either.

[1483] The person who pulls it off is not good for you because you know you're wrong.

[1484] You're carrying that shit around your head all the time.

[1485] No, I always say if you think if people, and this is again why one of my current events podcast has not really happening right now because I I feel like when you're in absolutely uncharted water you can't know what's going on so that's how you feel right now you feel like we're not I think we're in uncharted water and I think I think it's a combination everyone everyone always thinks it's a Trump thing but to me Trump is a vector uh to me what you were talking about with the social media is as much a part of of what makes this an absolutely unprecedented time and a bunch of other things um the globalization of the earth like you're saying I'm we're doing shows and hearing from people from other countries.

[1486] I mean, all this stuff interacting together has created an absolutely unprecedented situation.

[1487] So maybe I just organized my thinking differently, but I organize it historically.

[1488] And there's no way to put this into any box that's ever existed before.

[1489] So when I watch these talk shows or whatever with people who have no choice at 6 p .m. I have to be on the air and I have to have something to say to rile the audience.

[1490] You know, they have no options.

[1491] Their gig is, I know what's going on and let me tell you.

[1492] Whereas if they were honest with themselves they either would have to say I don't know what's going on and I'm watching too or if they really do believe they know what's going on well then you really shouldn't be listening to them at all yeah right then they're crazy no way they could there's no way they could no yeah I think we're dealing with the ramifications of a bunch of different pieces they're in play yes and I think one of those pieces that it's in play and one of the reasons why you see so much bitterness and anger in social media and you know we talked about this mechanism that social media allows people to communicate in this really cruel way without experiencing that person right in front of you, right?

[1493] But I think one of the reasons why these people have this deep -seated anger and resentment is there's a bunch of people out there that have these lives that are deeply unsatisfying.

[1494] Because I think somehow or another through momentum and just through just things falling into place the way they are and people trying to fit their lives around the way these pieces have fallen into place, there are so many people that are working all day, long doing something that is deeply unsatisfying and almost painful to them.

[1495] Yeah, soul killing.

[1496] Soul killing.

[1497] They're stuck in traffic all day, and then they're stuck in a cubicle after that.

[1498] They relish the time to take a shit in the bathroom and look at their phone.

[1499] I mean, they literally do that.

[1500] That's a highlight of someone's day.

[1501] They get in traffic on the way home.

[1502] They get home after that.

[1503] They're watching television, and they're fucked.

[1504] They have deep debt.

[1505] This is not like this soul -killing thing is not giving in the many freedom.

[1506] The debt's huge, do you.

[1507] You know what?

[1508] You sit there and go, and you look at what people make, and you sit there and go, you can make quite a lot of money by average Joe's standards and still not be in good shape.

[1509] So I know people turn around, make good living, really good living, and turn around and go, I'm just holding my head above water.

[1510] And so you go, okay, if you're holding your head just barely, what's a person making a third or a quarter of what you're making doing?

[1511] I mean, this is really, when you talk about revolutions happening and things going down in weird, unpredictable, negative ways, you, and we've talked about this before, you let enough of your society fall into the loser class, for lack of a better word, winners and losers in society.

[1512] If you, every society can suck up a certain amount of people not able to make it, but if that number gets large enough, revolutions happen.

[1513] I think so too, but I think that revolution doesn't necessarily have to be violent.

[1514] I think the revolution can be a revolution of action and ideas, and I think that there's a ton of people out there that are probably listening to this that would like to be able to do something else, whether it's make furniture.

[1515] Well, they don't want a revolution.

[1516] They want to do something that's not sold killing.

[1517] Yes.

[1518] If you make furniture, you make furniture for a living and you feel a great satisfaction of that and you sell that furniture, look, man, making furniture feels good.

[1519] If you can do that, you could cut those corners perfectly and sand everything down nice and stain it and then it's done and you get to satisfy it.

[1520] And you sell it to someone and that pays your bills.

[1521] That is infinitely more satisfying than being stuck in some fucking cubicle working for someone that you don't want to work for having to have these stupid fucking office meetings, talking to people in human resources, sitting down with your supervisor where they evaluate your job performance.

[1522] And you know, you're not really, you know, you really need to be enthusiastic about this company.

[1523] This company is your future.

[1524] This kind of like, you're like, fuck, kill me now.

[1525] You know, there's a lot of people out there that would way rather do something else.

[1526] And I hope they understand that they can.

[1527] Let's talk about that because we're in there.

[1528] We're in that subject.

[1529] Because we've been talking about us and podcasting and new media and whatever, but but really and I tell I give I rarely like to give advice because you know you don't want to be responsible for people acting on it and having it not turn out well but what I tell people is two things right now the United States of America the way it's built is built to help industry and and and and corporations and companies but that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be Microsoft it can be you right yeah you can have your own and the let's talk about the furniture builder once upon a time there are huge things in your way including needing to get loans and all these other things to just start a business so you're behind behind the eight ball right away and the pressure's on because if it doesn't work, you're in debt.

[1530] Whereas, I mean, we started these podcasts.

[1531] There's no brick or mortar.

[1532] I mean, now you've got just the Rogan Tower.

[1533] It's a little bit different.

[1534] But once upon a time, it's like in the back of your bedroom and you've got a company and it's got a show and people are listening.

[1535] If you make your furniture and you don't have to have a brick and mortar store, but you can put a website up, make it with Squarespace or one of those other things, and all of a sudden you have a business out of your house, the freedom, the satisfaction, the ability to set your own hours.

[1536] And here's the best part.

[1537] The fact that if you start making a lot of money somehow, you're not going to have your boss cut your commissions.

[1538] I mean, I knew sales guys who made so much money that their bosses cut their commissions because you can't make more than your bosses.

[1539] Well, listen, when you have your own small business, the sky is the limit.

[1540] If you make $10 million, you make $10 million.

[1541] Yeah.

[1542] So I always tell people that if you can, and it's not always something they can do, maybe you do it on the side when you've got your regular job, starting a small business now in this climate that we have right now is not only, possible, it's not that much of a gamble because if worse comes to worse, you didn't invest a hundred thousand dollars you didn't have starting it all the time, right?

[1543] Yeah.

[1544] I mean, that website didn't cost you that much.

[1545] You know, the investment for the tools you may have had already.

[1546] Podcasting is a perfect example.

[1547] We make business, like my buddy says, we sell zeros and ones.

[1548] Yeah.

[1549] That's what we do.

[1550] Well, it's never been easier to have a website either.

[1551] No. With companies like Squarespace, you could develop a website.

[1552] You could literally build an amazing website and sell your furniture.

[1553] And you have a free online store with it.

[1554] and you put, they have these drag and drop user interfaces, you use photos, you drag them on there, size it in place, boom.

[1555] Next thing you know, you've got a website.

[1556] Sell your furniture, sell whatever the fuck you make, whether you make clothes or you're designing backpacks or there's a lot of people out there that have interests and they've never pursued those interests because they're fucking tired from doing some boring, soul -sucking job.

[1557] It's hard to go to work and put your effort into that and then come home and then work for yourself.

[1558] It's very hard.

[1559] But I'll tell you what, There's a part, like you said, there's a part of it that once you start making stuff for yourself, that's self -motivating, right?

[1560] Like, I told somebody to start a podcast, and I said, the first time you get some feedback email, that will kick you in the rear end to keep doing the, it becomes, it becomes, you know, life is a verb, I always say, and you have to actually act.

[1561] But by acting, you change everything in your future.

[1562] Another guy said to me, it's a great line.

[1563] He said, with podcasts, it's not always how many people are listening.

[1564] Sometimes it's who they are, right?

[1565] So my grandmother's philosophy was always that you should keep walking and talking.

[1566] But in her era, walking and talking meant going and shaking people's hands.

[1567] Now you can network like through the internet and you never are really shaking people's hands, but you may have a podcast with only 100 listeners.

[1568] But if one of those listeners is some guy somewhere else who says, oh my God, this guy's furniture is great or whatever, I'm going to, maybe you can come and start giving a pottery barn, you know what, okay?

[1569] I mean, things open up in ways that you can't predict because you started doing something.

[1570] And because you have legitimate passion for what you do.

[1571] I mean, that resonates to people that experience that.

[1572] If they see, I mean, I can't tell you how many artists that I've discovered online just through Instagram or through Twitter.

[1573] This is a creative revolution.

[1574] Yes.

[1575] In an amazing way.

[1576] And I hope, and I think there's way more creative people out there than we realize.

[1577] Oh, yes, absolutely.

[1578] And I think they would love to have some sort of an opportunity to do something like that, and especially like an artist.

[1579] Someone who's an artist, man, there's never been a better time to be an artist.

[1580] Because you could showcase your work.

[1581] And look, if you send me something cool and, you know, send it to me on Twitter and I'll fucking retweet it.

[1582] Yeah, totally.

[1583] We treat things all the time.

[1584] And all of that takes is someone else has to see that and say, wow, that's amazing.

[1585] And then it just propagates to all these different people's Instagram feeds and all these people, Twitter feeds.

[1586] The next thing you know, you've got a business and you're up and running.

[1587] And it's not going to be easy and it's not going to be quick.

[1588] But the job you're doing now 80s, you're quick.

[1589] The soul killing one eighties, you're quick either.

[1590] But people think like, oh, how long is that going to take?

[1591] Oh, but when you start out doing a podcast, well, I only got 10 downloads.

[1592] Well, that's how it works.

[1593] We all were there once.

[1594] Yeah, I was there once.

[1595] Dude, when we first did it, when Brian and I were first doing this podcast and we were doing it on like Ustream, we would have 200 viewers.

[1596] And I wasn't doing it for money.

[1597] I was literally doing it because my wife had gotten pregnant.

[1598] We had to move from Colorado back to L .A. and I was bummed out.

[1599] I was like, fuck, I thought I escaped.

[1600] I thought I got out of L .A. I was living in the mountains.

[1601] I was like, this is what I want.

[1602] I want to be in nature.

[1603] I was like, I don't want to be back in this fucking hell hole.

[1604] Like, all right, let's do something.

[1605] And so we started doing podcast just for a goof because I was doing stand -up.

[1606] That was all well and good.

[1607] But look at how it tied into your stand -up so nice thing.

[1608] But my point is, it didn't start out, I didn't start out thinking this is going to replace my income.

[1609] This is going to be, I just did it as a passion project.

[1610] And I think if people have a regular day job, if you could just find some one thing that you do as a passion project and just keep building on it, just keep at, keep watering it, keep adding fertilizer, keep giving it attention, keep giving it focus, and you can escape.

[1611] You can escape and you can be self -serving.

[1612] You could be okay.

[1613] You're going to be okay.

[1614] I always ask people when they want to start it, like a podcast, I'll say something like, how many listeners would you have to have for you to care, right?

[1615] And that's a magic number that's different for everybody, right?

[1616] But what's great about what we do that's different from broadcasting is that there is a giant pie of people.

[1617] Let's pretend it's a billion.

[1618] And if you're going to do a podcast on science fiction comic books from the 1950s or something that has such a narrow audience, they'd never put it on television because it's too narrow.

[1619] You will be able, if you even get 0 .000 of that billion pie, it's not only going to be a decent number of people in terms of what you would think is successful.

[1620] but they're going to be so enthusiastic because this is an outlet that they don't have it's like i always tell somebody if you're into harry potter what are the tv networks given you but there's multiple harry potter podcasts listen to this you want to hear something crazy time magazine just had some top 50 podcast thing and a buddy mine who was angry that he wasn't on sent me some stuff about it and one of the things he said dude there's a fucking podcast on there called the gilmore boys that's guys two guys sitting around talking about the gilmore girls television show.

[1621] There's another one called something about Richard Simmons, where there's finding Richard Simmons, where they're trying to figure out why Richard Simmons went into hiding.

[1622] What's so great about that idea, though?

[1623] And again, and you at home can learn this too.

[1624] What's so great about that idea is that they instantly tied their podcast to somebody who already had tons of fans.

[1625] Yes.

[1626] Right?

[1627] So you sit there and go, I don't know who these guys are with this, but I'm a huge Richard Simmons fan, so I'll listen.

[1628] And that's like instant audience, And there's another podcast called Guys We Fucked.

[1629] These girls came up with this podcast.

[1630] This is one that I always use in his example because these, who are the girls from Guys We Fooked?

[1631] You find their names.

[1632] These comedians from New York, they came, and they're actually going to be on the podcast Monday.

[1633] Ooh, that was a clever tie -in.

[1634] I didn't mean to.

[1635] But I used them as an example because we just booked this earlier today.

[1636] Christina Hutchinson and Corinne, excuse me, Corinne Fisher.

[1637] And they came up with this clever idea for the title, and it became huge.

[1638] I mean, it's always top ten.

[1639] It's like one of the top ten comedy podcasts.

[1640] And people say, oh, well, today it's saturated.

[1641] No, it's not stupid.

[1642] Just do something that's good.

[1643] Stop saying it's saturated.

[1644] If you're good, it'll stand out.

[1645] This idea that, like, oh, it's easy for you to say.

[1646] Everybody's got these stupid barriers they put in their own head.

[1647] You've got to resist those goddamn things because they don't do you any good, and they certainly define the potential for your future in a negative way that's not self -service.

[1648] and it's not even real.

[1649] You know, you put this artificial ceiling on the potential for what you're doing.

[1650] If you hit a wall, okay, that just means you need to regroup and rethink.

[1651] It doesn't mean that wall's there, especially when it comes to something like social media or like a podcast, something where you're just, you're putting out a piece of art, you're putting out something that you've created.

[1652] There's no wall as far as like how many people are going to enjoy it or how far it's going to go.

[1653] It's just, it is what it is.

[1654] And if people don't like it, make it better.

[1655] If they like it less, fix that.

[1656] Figure out a way to do it.

[1657] You can do that.

[1658] And this idea that there's no way to get past the starting block today is just ludicrous.

[1659] It's crazy.

[1660] And it's just this poor thinking.

[1661] And people that are trapped in bad situations, one of the problems is you feel like this is your future.

[1662] You feel like you're fucked and you can't get out of that.

[1663] There's no hope.

[1664] There's no light at the end of the tunnel.

[1665] There's no rainbow.

[1666] And if you feel like that, that alone can.

[1667] be incredibly defining and limiting but if you can look at if you look at yourself objectively and say okay i kind of am fucked here i'm in credit card debt i'm working in a shitty job i i don't like what i'm doing but i have some ideas i need to feed those fucking ideas and i need to feed them and water them and i need to set aside a certain amount of time every day to just try to make those things happen you can do that i have a i like visual images you know we use that in the hardcore history a lot these know what's it like to fight an elephant with a spear things like that i like but the the image to die that's what it's like the image i have though for what you're talking about i've always thought it's a little like um a running back in football who takes the ball and who goes forward and there's no hole right all you run into is the back of your offensive lineman but if you keep hitting if a hole is going to open up boom you'll squirt through now there's no guarantee in life the hole will be there but there is a guarantee that if you're not continually smacking at it then when it opens up you won't be right right and so i don't know about you you, Joe, you've had a charmed life, I think, and how well you've done.

[1668] But, I mean, some of us have failed many times.

[1669] I've failed that a bunch of shit.

[1670] I'm teasing you.

[1671] I really have.

[1672] But I guess what I'm saying is I remember being a TV reporter at a small station, and I would get out of work at, like, midnight, and the story that I just spent all day on aired, and it was awful.

[1673] And I would get out, and I would literally, this is when I still had quite a bit of hair.

[1674] I would sit there and, like, you like, pull your hair out.

[1675] You go, what am I doing?

[1676] Right.

[1677] This is horrible.

[1678] And I look back on those now, and I think, you know, what if you had just, given up then, right?

[1679] Or the podcast.

[1680] I mean, do you know how my wife did a great thing for me?

[1681] We'd had that company that I just told you about that we were trying to do the new media thing and it just fell apart like everybody's companies were starting to do.

[1682] And I'd wasted a lot of time and a lot of money in my life doing that.

[1683] And she would have been totally justified in saying, that's it.

[1684] You know, you're going to Indianapolis, get a talk radio show job wherever they're hired.

[1685] But she didn't.

[1686] She said, you know what?

[1687] You try this next thing.

[1688] You could do it.

[1689] And here we are.

[1690] And I think, you know, if you hadn't tried, it's that.

[1691] A weird thing about it.

[1692] And folks, I tried being a TV reporter.

[1693] I try, you try all those things, and either they're not successful or they're moderately successful or they're successful, but not enough for you.

[1694] Life is a verb.

[1695] You have to, you know, the thing that makes people the most sad in life, and I already have a couple of friends my own age who are there is the regrets, right?

[1696] They don't, they're not sorry they've failed.

[1697] They're sorry they didn't try.

[1698] And the funny thing is, some of them are only 50 and they think, okay, my window to try is already gone.

[1699] which is wrong too.

[1700] But folks, you will be so happy.

[1701] There's so many things that have happened in my life because I, I mean, I got my first talk radio show job.

[1702] I was a reporter.

[1703] I covered this story.

[1704] There was some big guy showing up at the local radio station.

[1705] And as I was leaving, I wrote a letter to the program director to say, thanks for having us.

[1706] And I thought, do I mail this?

[1707] Do I not mail it?

[1708] Do I mail it?

[1709] And just, you know, I closed my eyes and I mailed.

[1710] He called me two days later.

[1711] So you want a job?

[1712] What if you didn't send that letter?

[1713] It's so stupid.

[1714] The little things that your life can hinge on.

[1715] But if you don't do them, you don't give fate an opportunity to intervene.

[1716] I think here's an important thing, too.

[1717] Failure is important.

[1718] It is important.

[1719] I think failure teaches you things that you don't learn from success.

[1720] I think failure gives you an opportunity for self -examination.

[1721] It also gives you a feeling that is very uncomfortable.

[1722] And that very uncomfortable feeling helps you grow.

[1723] That when you feel like shit and you screw something up, like when I've had bad podcast, my podcast has always gotten better afterwards.

[1724] When I've had bad stand -up sets, I've always gotten better after that.

[1725] because those bad sets motivate you.

[1726] They give you a perspective, like, hey, here's some clear examples of where you fucked up.

[1727] Yeah, what not to do.

[1728] Yeah, don't look at these failures as, like, proof that you suck.

[1729] Look at them as opportunities for growth.

[1730] Look at them as opportunities to be motivated to do better.

[1731] Winston Churchill had a line about reading quotes, about how inspirational reading famous quotes were.

[1732] And he says, they motivate you from a number of different ways, including the idea that, you know, it's just you or you think that these people who did so well were so incredibly gifted or privileged from the get -go and when you realize no no no they're more like me than I think that becomes inspirational right you telling your audience this is inspirational you don't want to hear go back to school go do this work no but if you hate your job that is like nature telling you to try something different and it's motivating because the motivation is you might not have to do that soul -killing job anymore well if you look at someone is doing really well like say if you focus on, like, Kevin Hart or someone like that, some very famous and successful comedian, all you see is him now, flying around private jets, wearing a new pair of sneakers every day, driving around in Bentley's, you just see that.

[1733] You don't see him being a young kid in Philadelphia going to open mic night, scratching and clawing.

[1734] MC Hammer selling the tapes out of the hatchback.

[1735] All that stuff, man, there's a path.

[1736] And we think of people like, you see an old person walking down the street.

[1737] You go, oh, that person's always been an old person.

[1738] No, that was a baby.

[1739] That was a baby that became a 90 -year -old man. There's a progression that you're not witnessed to.

[1740] You don't see it.

[1741] And that takes place in everything.

[1742] It takes place in authors.

[1743] It takes place in comedians and musicians.

[1744] There's a starting point, and then with time and focus, and as long as you reevaluate and reassess and constantly, objectively look at what you're doing and then pursue it with passion and focus, you get better at things.

[1745] And you know what?

[1746] Doing all those things ends up, you know, it's funny, but your life experiences create who you are.

[1747] And all those things actually make you a more formidable, I know I'm speaking to the choir here, but all those things make you a more formidable person.

[1748] So that eventually that next endeavor is, is you're more prepared for and you're more formidable.

[1749] And so, you know, you turn around and you say, what was I like as a 23 year old intern compared to what I'm like now?

[1750] And I'm basically a different person.

[1751] And you're a different person because of all the these life experiences.

[1752] I mean, you go to a CENTCOM meeting with the big brat.

[1753] Well, you're more formidable afterwards, right?

[1754] For sure.

[1755] But if you don't put yourself in the position, you know, life is like coming up to the plate and taking a swing.

[1756] There are no guarantees you're going to get a hit.

[1757] No guarantee.

[1758] And you might even look foolish swinging, but there's no chance of it if you don't get in the battered box, right?

[1759] 100%.

[1760] And one of the things that I've found over the last few years in particular, I've done it in the past, but I did it because they were just goals that I was pursuing on the side as well as doing stand -up.

[1761] all the other things that I do in my life.

[1762] But I've found that things that are completely unrelated to my career that are difficult enhance what I do, whether it's yoga or running hills or archery or all these things that I pursue.

[1763] And you've managed you incorporate them into what you do.

[1764] Sort of.

[1765] But that's just because one of the things that I do is just talk about things that I'm interested in.

[1766] But they make my focus better because they're hard and because I'm not good at them.

[1767] So, like, when I do yoga, I'm not good at yoga.

[1768] So when I do it, it's hard.

[1769] It's a fucking struggle.

[1770] And forcing myself to get through that 90 -minute class and try 100 % with every pose enhances my stamina for thinking and approaching other things.

[1771] Let's macro it out a little bit because I'm very interested in what you're saying.

[1772] So here you and I are talking to the listeners, many of whom are already accomplished and well into their goals.

[1773] But if they're not, they're listening to this.

[1774] And I'm thinking to myself, okay, if you're trying to.

[1775] to design a society, you know, we had talked about revolution, if too many people are the losers in the society, if you said to yourself, what really matters in the society is making more Americans who are happier with their lives, more successful, doing what they want to do.

[1776] In other words, empowering them to create, how different is that in terms of a setup from what our school system is designed to do now, which is a holdover to essentially make good factory workers?

[1777] Right.

[1778] Right.

[1779] I mean, if you said to somebody, listen, this entire country is built for you to become a businessman with your own business, you start your own company.

[1780] If you taught that in the schools from the get -go and you had workshops all, and everybody's going to say, damn, we already do that in the schools.

[1781] I already know.

[1782] But I mean, if that was the entire goal of your education to turn every student in that class into a small business person doing their own dreams someday, how would you do it differently than what you do now?

[1783] Because to me, the biggest crime isn't that we have the kind of system we have, it's that we're not training people on how to utilize it.

[1784] I mean, we have all these opportunities there and it sounds like a cliche but we're doing it and as you go through it you say to yourself well why can't more people do this well who told them they could and who said you know i mean this is a little bit of a hand holding but i'm teaching this to my kids right now right i'm telling them listen don't go do the soul killing job uh work on this thing that you seem to be good at and that you love and let's work on it now yeah what if i mean i guess what i'm saying is could we be doing a better job here uh and if if so you know would you have to fight teachers you unions to do it.

[1785] What do you have to do to break apart a system that's 140 years old and not work at all that well right now to more correspond to the reality that people are growing up in now?

[1786] Well, I had a conversation with my daughter yesterday about this, my nine -year -old.

[1787] She was saying, she was saying school is so boring.

[1788] I don't want to go to school tomorrow.

[1789] She was laughing about it.

[1790] I was picking her up from a class that she goes to.

[1791] And I said, well, what's the most boring?

[1792] She goes, it's all boring.

[1793] She's being funny, right?

[1794] And I go, well, you like reading and you're really into reading.

[1795] She goes, yeah, I do.

[1796] I like it.

[1797] But they make it boring.

[1798] She goes, they make reading boring.

[1799] And she goes, they make, I go, but you like writing, right?

[1800] You like writing?

[1801] She goes, I like writing what I want to write about.

[1802] They make writing boring.

[1803] So she's creative.

[1804] Yeah, but she was being silly.

[1805] But the wisdom from a nine -year -old, we were just laughing and having fun talking about it, but the wisdom from a nine -year -old expressing how they make things that she likes boring.

[1806] It's like, I think there's a certain amount that you have to do that's boring, right?

[1807] There's a certain amount of the hard work.

[1808] Even in your business that you like.

[1809] Sure.

[1810] Learning grammar, learning language.

[1811] Certain amount of that stuff is fucking boring.

[1812] Once you get past that boring shit and you have a base understanding of how to communicate, how to add, how to count, how to multiply, how government works, all these different things that you should have sort of a base understanding of.

[1813] Then it's like, everyone has a different personality.

[1814] They have different interests, different things that they would be really satisfied pursuing.

[1815] That's not encouraged.

[1816] What's encouraged is go find a job.

[1817] What's encouraged is go find someplace that you can shove yourself into.

[1818] Go find a square hole that you can stick your round peg and just fucking jamming in there and shave down the top and the bottom so you slide in with all this extra space on the sides and feel like shit for the rest of your life.

[1819] Because you need a job.

[1820] because you're in debt, because you have credit cards, because you have student loans, because that's what everybody does.

[1821] And so you do it too.

[1822] That's what's wrong.

[1823] What's wrong is that we don't, like, we don't give, it's like, we let them figure it out on their own.

[1824] And it fucking takes forever.

[1825] It took forever for me. The only thing that I had going for me was that I was crazy and that I had been spending most of my high school years fighting so that I was already so far outside of that.

[1826] anybody that I was so weird I didn't fit in anywhere I was weird too is not funny I didn't feel like I had a pot I knew one thing I couldn't work like a regular job like I had to figure out something else because I mean there's the idea of it was literally the idea of being in an office was like torture okay can I just tell you so that's the hinge point the difference between you and this so so here's if I was if I was creating a fantasy educational system the hinge point between what you just said is that you said I couldn't stand this I couldn't work the real job I couldn't fit into this so I did something had to find another way a lot of people get stuck with the so I had to find another way part yeah um you know it's funny because you know your kids are young enough too so you went through this but I mean when my kids were really young before they were in the school they're in now we put them in one of those Montessori schools you know the ones how are those so everybody goes together no it's it's different school to school but but the basic concept is that you don't force the children to learn anything specific you have all these things around and the children go to what they want to do.

[1827] So the upsides, obviously, that from the get -go, they're only reading what they're into.

[1828] The downside, of course, is that there's all this other stuff you're supposed to learn.

[1829] It's the dichotomy between how do you know, you talked about needing to have these skills, little math skills.

[1830] You need some basic foundational stuff.

[1831] But something is also happening at that level, which is you're finding out which students are into math and would like to have a career in math.

[1832] Other people are being touched by a foreign language in a way that they think, I'd like to learn more.

[1833] I'd like to speak and fluent.

[1834] I'd like to teach it.

[1835] So in a way, you're already beginning to select what kids are into by exposing them to this stuff.

[1836] Most of us find it boring, but there might be something, that's where I first found history as a discipline, right?

[1837] If most kids say, oh, God, the last thing I want to hear is some history, but I get turned on by it, okay, well, then it's worth exposing you to all those things.

[1838] I think the problem is, though, is that it would be great, for example, to have half your schooling, maybe at that young age, be sort of a Montessori model where you say, okay, we spend our time on reading, writing and arithmetic.

[1839] Now we want you to go around, and it has to be, you can't be playing video games unless playing video games is what you want to do for a living and you're going to be able to do some educational work on it.

[1840] But I mean, I would love to see more of a fostering for the fact that, listen, we're trying to create entrepreneurs here rather than trying to create drone workers on the Amazon assembly line.

[1841] Now, if you end up on the Amazon assembly line anyway, great, good for you.

[1842] I'm glad you can bring some food home.

[1843] But the goal ought to be to let you start a business and maybe employ a bunch of other people, you know?

[1844] Yeah, and the goal would be to have less unhappy, dissatisfied people.

[1845] Because it creates a more stable society.

[1846] Well, it also happier.

[1847] Yeah.

[1848] It creates more satisfaction.

[1849] The people that I know that get to do what they want to do for a living, it's not like their lives are completely happy.

[1850] Everybody's going to face problems, no matter who you are.

[1851] Absolutely.

[1852] You know, what did, it was a Kanye West who said, do rich people have problems?

[1853] They're just different problems.

[1854] I mean, everybody's got these challenges, but like you said, there's not a lot more stressful than having a ton of credit card debt, wondering, you know, if you're going to lose your house, wondering how you're going to pay for your kids' education.

[1855] I mean, all those things are soul -crushing.

[1856] Not only that, because you're in debt, you get nervous, so it suppresses your ability to express yourself and take risks.

[1857] Because you're, you know, you don't want to lose your gig.

[1858] You don't want to, you know, it's like, man, there's no way to live.

[1859] You're tired.

[1860] I mean, the one thing is, as you get older, I mean, it's funny because.

[1861] getting older is one of those things that you can only understand when you get there.

[1862] So all through your life, you're going through these, God, isn't this the interesting part of being in your 30s or being in your 40s?

[1863] So as I go into my 50s now, I'm sitting here going, energy is so under -talked about.

[1864] Yeah.

[1865] You know, the ability to, like my buddy who wrote me and said, you know, I feel like I screwed at my life.

[1866] I didn't take enough chances.

[1867] I played it safe and now I'm so unhappy.

[1868] He says, and I just can't motivate myself at 50 years old anymore, energy -wise, to start.

[1869] over.

[1870] Energy is underrepresented.

[1871] It's hard.

[1872] Well, tell that guy, he's got to fix his health.

[1873] I knew you were going to say that.

[1874] That's what it is.

[1875] Your health is your engine.

[1876] Yeah, it is.

[1877] Your health is literally the chassis, the tires, the brakes, the engine of your vehicle that you move through this life with.

[1878] And too many people don't pay attention to it.

[1879] The lack of energy is a killer.

[1880] And as you get older especially.

[1881] It's not just that.

[1882] It changes your ability to do things.

[1883] If you don't have energy, not only will you not have the energy to pursue things but you won't you won't be able to do them the same way if you have energy and enthusiasm and say like you're healthy and you want to write a book you're gonna have thoughts that'll come into your mind that won't come into your mind if you're exhausted agreed and that's fucking huge that's huge for anything you're trying to pursue whether we're talking about furniture making what they're talking about being an author whatever it is let's talk about ideas for a minute because I think that's another one when we talk about small businesses or starting as an entrepreneur you know I'm one of those people that is not sure that we don't have a finite number of ideas to each of us, and all of them are valuable enough, even if they don't appear to be on the surface, to write down.

[1884] Yeah.

[1885] You know, as a matter of fact, I went to a business meeting a couple years ago with one of these TV guys I was just talking about, and we go to this business meeting, and, you know, we're all on our phones and whatever, and he pulls out an old -fashioned journal that you write in, and he just starts writing.

[1886] And I looked at that, and I thought, in one sense, he looks like a dinosaur, but I went out and bought one.

[1887] And now it's crazy how often, you know, all I do is right ideas in it.

[1888] And a lot of them I look back on now and I go, okay, that's still stupid.

[1889] But other ones I look back on and I go, God, I didn't know what this idea meant at the time.

[1890] But five years later, this idea is really, you know, I guess what I'm saying is that if you wanted to take almost like a religious view of it, God only gives you somebody right down and cherish the ideas.

[1891] But there is something to that.

[1892] Folks, what really is going to make you unique sometimes is the way your brain were.

[1893] works differently than anyone's brain who's ever existed on the planet.

[1894] That's valuable right there.

[1895] Write down what comes out of the brain.

[1896] Well, capture those things.

[1897] Yes, capture them.

[1898] If you don't capture them, they will slip away.

[1899] And sometimes the idea isn't good until the second half arrives later, right?

[1900] So idea number one's in your book from five years ago.

[1901] Idea number two that finally completes that idea arrives later.

[1902] I mean, I had a friend who was so creative and he said he gets the best ideas at night.

[1903] So he just turns on the light at the side of the table.

[1904] writes it down in the book and by morning there's another idea down there yeah and quantity has a quality all its own and sometimes a book filled with interesting ideas out of your individual unique head will help you later on so write them down yeah you have to there's no downside i have an app on my phone where i can just uh you know the notes app you use that where it has a little microphone filled i talk into that thing i do too and it dictates it really almost perfectly so i'll have an idea and i'll just be driving down the road i just press that button and i'll just be driving down the road and I start talking into it, and then I put it down.

[1905] I got it.

[1906] Like, I got that one.

[1907] It captured it.

[1908] Think about people who had one fantastic idea in their life and built their whole life on it.

[1909] And you never know which idea that's going to be.

[1910] And you know what?

[1911] I was an improv.

[1912] Again, you know more about this than I do.

[1913] But I was a theater major for my first two years of college.

[1914] And we did improv comedy.

[1915] And the guy who taught us improv in high school, really, he had a great line.

[1916] He said, that part of your brain, like every part of your brain, is a muscle.

[1917] And he said, the more you're thinking, okay, I've got to show this.

[1918] Friday that I have to come up with something funny for, the better you get at it.

[1919] Yeah.

[1920] And you start looking.

[1921] Your brain starts looking at things and finding things.

[1922] So you're almost like training it to help you now in this new endeavor.

[1923] It's a very plastic sort of an approach.

[1924] But it's the same thing with the ideas.

[1925] One idea in your little book that you wrote down could make your life, your child.

[1926] I mean, if you're Henry Ford, I mean, how many people did you employ for decades afterwards because of a good idea?

[1927] I mean, our world is built on those things.

[1928] And also like the idea of having these ideas and the enthusiasm that comes from it, like it starts to escalate and you start to calculate like, oh, and I need more and I need this and maybe that.

[1929] And then the motivation and the momentum of these ideas can lead to enthusiasm.

[1930] And you attract other people who can add.

[1931] I mean, this is what we said about like you start your website and you just do it because things, once you push the the verb of living manages to create ripples into.

[1932] get a little bit metaphysical here, but ripples in time in front of you that open up possibilities and because someone may, if you only have one podcast listener, but that podcast listener is like, wow, that's great, I'm going to, and gets a hold of you and your life goes off in another different direction, but you have to try.

[1933] You have to try.

[1934] Yeah, well, you don't have to.

[1935] You could just drone on, but I would recommend not doing that.

[1936] I would also suggest that you and I and everyone has an interest in in not allowing people to drone on too much because because for the same reason I talked about instant we did a common sense show once called the revenge of the gangrenous finger and that the idea was that you know if you ignore people in your society that aren't doing well long enough it's a little like saying yes my finger has gangrene but it's the little ones of who the hell cares but eventually if you ignore it long enough it'll poison your bloodstream and destroy the body itself if you have enough people in soul -crushing situations who can't you know a guy called me once on the radio when I was preaching revolution in the middle 1990s and said you're an idiot he said you're an idiot because no one's going to face the bayonets as long as they have enough food in their bellies and they're doing halfway okay but of course the implication there is if they don't have food in their bellies and they're not doing okay then all bets are off we all have a vested interest in seeing that more of our countrymen do better because it's better for the society's a whole creates a better world for your kids happier I mean there's so many and the one thing about our system you know people talk about patriotism all the time but to me the real patriotism is saying we've created a system here it works this way it encourages people to go do these things so if the system's designed and set up for that you ought to give it a try you ought to just see yeah you know the suggestion that I always give to people is write down things that you want to try to accomplish just write them down or a guy said to me said it said write the way you want your obituary to appear now.

[1937] Sit down, write your obituary.

[1938] He says, because that'll show you how far off your goals you are.

[1939] Well, here's a better one.

[1940] Pretend there's a documentary crew filming your success story, and they're following you around right now.

[1941] What would you do?

[1942] What would you do if you knew that there was a crew following you around with cameras documenting your future incredible success, and they want to catch you in the act of it all?

[1943] You would do all the right things you would have to do.

[1944] Think about that, organize it.

[1945] But we are saddled down by so many doubts, And so much just mental horseshit that keeps people from action.

[1946] But look at the thing that's, to me, maybe the number one thing, that's the impediment and they make society unequal.

[1947] It's the luck of who your parents are.

[1948] That's a big one.

[1949] I mean, if you say, listen, this guy grew up and started his own business because his folks taught him those kinds of things and encouraged him or she with her creativity.

[1950] Okay, that's a person that's got a huge advantage in life.

[1951] We talked about white privilege giving you an advantage.

[1952] Well, good parent privilege gives you an advantage.

[1953] Giant.

[1954] But then the question that, if you're looking at it, macro in a society sense that comes up, is, okay, what can society do if you say, this is a real problem for the rest of us, not enough good parents?

[1955] Because those people never learned it.

[1956] How do you compensate for that?

[1957] And that almost gets a little socialistic, where you talk about the state teaching you creativity.

[1958] And it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, but there's got to be, if we decide that this is a national security interest, you know, having more Americans live in the dream, have less losers.

[1959] But what if your parents are losers?

[1960] Yeah, well, you can get past that.

[1961] I know a lot of people that have had losers for parents.

[1962] Could we increase the number of people?

[1963] You know, if you say, okay, 500 out of 1 ,000 overcome that, how do you get to 600?

[1964] How do you get to 700 out of 1 ,000?

[1965] And if you say it's a national security concern that we do, I mean, I think ambition is a gene.

[1966] I really do.

[1967] And I think that some of us, you could be born into any circumstance, but you've got this gene, so you're going to be ambitious and you're going to overcome it.

[1968] Then I think there's people who have no ambition gene and there's nothing you can do to help them.

[1969] And then I think there's a huge number of people in the middle that could go either way.

[1970] And the question I have is, you don't have to help the ones with the gene.

[1971] You can't do anything for the ones without the gene.

[1972] How do you increase the odds for the people who could go either way?

[1973] I think you give them a template.

[1974] You give them some markers that they can follow.

[1975] Who's we, though?

[1976] I mean, they're me. Yes, it's, okay.

[1977] Anybody who's already gone.

[1978] Anybody who's ahead.

[1979] You go, hey, come on, come this way.

[1980] I mean, there's the responsibility that we have for each other.

[1981] Well, what about like incubating business?

[1982] I mean, you look at some of these in the little town where, well, little town, Eugene, Oregon, where I live now, they have a, I love Eugene, by the way.

[1983] You know, it's great.

[1984] If you're from Los Angeles like I am, it's great.

[1985] It's green.

[1986] I like Boulder where you live.

[1987] I went to college there.

[1988] But if you are living in a place like that, they have a venture capitalist angel investor thing for people who are starting small businesses.

[1989] And it's not a government deal, although the county's in, I think, a little bit.

[1990] But it's one of those things where you go, okay, if this is a good idea, could we be doing more of this where you say, Joe Blow wants to start a business.

[1991] He needs $100 ,000 to do it.

[1992] If you go to a bank, they're never going to approve it because you have too much credit card debt.

[1993] Could we, as a society, say, hey, we have an interest in Joe Blow doing well with that furniture company?

[1994] What can we do to help?

[1995] I think even better.

[1996] The better thing would be to not have a loan to try to figure out how to do it without a loan.

[1997] One of the beautiful things about Kickstarter and GoFund me is it, you know, you can raise money now.

[1998] You don't need a storefront?

[1999] No, you don't need anything.

[2000] You know, I just feel like people need.

[2001] inspiration and they need guidelines and if if long as you could just start moving just get action like you just getting just movement get so it's a verb you got you yeah and folks listen that's the one thing to really take out of this is that just try and see what happens and my stepfather had a great line he said what's the worst that can happen yeah and you know sometimes you have to think about that to realize um if you're scared about failure don't be scared about the greatest in the world have failed if you're worried about going into debt i understand that don't Don't be scared of failure.

[2002] I think failure is awesome for you.

[2003] And that's one of the reasons why, like I said, I like doing things that I suck at.

[2004] You know, you could get real complacent if you're really good at something and you only do that thing all the time.

[2005] I agree with that.

[2006] And you're not grown anymore here.

[2007] Yeah, you're just not challenged.

[2008] You're not like, you're not at the bottom of the heap.

[2009] You know, if you start jiu -jitsu right now and you're a white belt, you're like, oh, God, what the fuck?

[2010] How could I ever get good at this?

[2011] And it's humbling.

[2012] But in that humbling thing, you learn about yourself, you learn about discipline, and you build up that engine, that muscle that is trying to work things out and figure things out.

[2013] You're creating a more formidable you.

[2014] Yeah, it's a good way to look at it.

[2015] Now, as a historian, you know, and I know you like to say that, but you are, motherfucker.

[2016] I want to get a T -shirt.

[2017] I'm not a history.

[2018] You're probably one of the most important historians ever.

[2019] How about that, fuckface?

[2020] Don't know what?

[2021] I'm speechless.

[2022] But as someone who is a fan of history, how about this?

[2023] I'll put it a more palatable way for you.

[2024] You.

[2025] How do you look at what, do you look at like what's going on with this administration and with this country and this, I mean, our president is, he tweeted at Kim Jong -un saying that Kim Jong -un said that I'm old.

[2026] I don't know why he said that because I never say that he's short and fat.

[2027] And like, maybe we can be friends someday.

[2028] He's like, he's like Don Rickles as president.

[2029] It's fucking hilarious.

[2030] But do you look at it in terms of like one day someone is going to do a hardcore history series about the Trump administration?

[2031] Do you ever look at it that way?

[2032] Do you look at it in terms of like establishing a narrative or like trying to describe it to people someday?

[2033] I think we're too in the maelstrom, like we said earlier, for me to figure that out.

[2034] I will say that I see certain side benefits.

[2035] So for example, you know, one of the things that I've talked about for many, many years, and we did a whole six -hour podcast on it, too, is the, you know, is the, you know, you know, is the president's power to launch a nuclear war all by himself or herself.

[2036] That was a great series.

[2037] Well, and here's the thing, is that that's an obvious flaw.

[2038] I mean, that's, and everybody understands it, but nobody's done anything about it.

[2039] So now because everyone's so scared of Trump, they're talking about fixing a problem that should have been fixed decades and decades ago, not because he's a great president and they're looking for, but because they're so freaking scared of him and he's so outside, you know, I mean, it's funny because why these politicians, and they'll, trust people from the other parties.

[2040] It doesn't matter.

[2041] You didn't hear the Democrats saying we can't have George W. Bush with his finger on the nuclear button.

[2042] You didn't hear George W .B. They're all fine with it as long as you're one of those insiders.

[2043] The first time you get an outsider in there, now they're scared to death.

[2044] But they should have been scared to death decades and decades ago.

[2045] So if you said that we have a Trump presidency and the only big thing that comes out of it is they finally fix that one person can't launch a nuclear war and Holocaust by themselves, that's a pretty big deal, right?

[2046] You almost had to break a little aspect of the system for people to freak out enough to fix it.

[2047] But when you think, look, worst case scenarios, you think worst case, look at World War I is a worst case scenario.

[2048] If you have a person with the power to launch a nuclear war by themselves, if anybody can't see that that's an untenable, horrible situation, and you look at human history and go, okay, it's a ticking time bomb, literally, then you don't know very much history.

[2049] And the fact that we've escaped decades and decades without anybody fixing this problem.

[2050] Well, so if the Trump presidency alone caused us to fix that problem, you'd have to say that for no, I mean, this wasn't Trump's idea.

[2051] He didn't want to fix that problem.

[2052] But as a byproduct of him getting into office, if we could fix that problem, depending on how history went in the future, you could be saving 100 million lives.

[2053] Yeah, if you could fix that problem, I mean, but if we get through the Trump administration and we move ourselves into 2020 and someone really acceptable.

[2054] Into the Kardashian administration after that.

[2055] Well, you do think, I mean, if a Q rating, the Q rating is how well your name is known, right?

[2056] So if what Trump proved is that you do not need a ton of money if you walk in the door with a Q rating, because that's what the other politicians want it for, right?

[2057] Well, he's uniquely good at ignoring his faults and projecting his strengths and being confident.

[2058] All those things, I mean, he might be a sociopath, but all those things that allow him to do that and completely ignore his faults and keep constantly droning on about his successes and how good he is at things, that resonates with people in a very weird way.

[2059] We respect and admire the strong man and people give in to him.

[2060] There's a lot of half -ass beta man. I hate that.

[2061] To me, that's so anti -American, though, the strong man. But it is what happened.

[2062] That is what happened.

[2063] That's why I find it distasteful.

[2064] But I will say this.

[2065] There are certain things that he did that are part of his personality, that worked really well because there are so many Americans so upset with the system.

[2066] Yes.

[2067] I mean, I remember one line from Trump at one of these debates that I thought was one of the great lines of all time.

[2068] And when he turned to Rand Paul after Rand Paul slammed him and said, you're not having a very good night, are you?

[2069] And I remember thinking, okay, there are a lot of Americans who just love anybody sticking it to these politicians.

[2070] Because everybody's so upset with all the politics.

[2071] So here's a guy who's sticking it to them.

[2072] But there's a cutting off your nose to spite your face side of this, because I've always wanted an outsider, but not this outsider.

[2073] Yeah.

[2074] So you say to yourself, okay, we could have had a normal human being, because look, if you want to say what Trump has, I don't know the guy, so I can't diagram what he, but he's an extreme narcissist.

[2075] Now, all these people have narcissistic complexes, or you don't think I'm a good enough guy to be president, right?

[2076] Right there, it's almost like you don't get through the door without too much narcissism.

[2077] I've never seen this much from anybody.

[2078] I mean, this is, this is, but, you know, if for a while that was working for him, because he was so outside the norms, there are certain, like, unspoken rules of things you do and behave.

[2079] And he violated all those, and it was refreshing to have him violate them.

[2080] Now we have, I. Well, when he told Hillary Clinton, because you'd be in jail and everybody went nuts, it's like, yes.

[2081] Yeah, because a lot of people would.

[2082] It was a zinger.

[2083] Yeah, because people, and people, you know, the real thing I think a lot of people said, which is tragic.

[2084] but I understand it is, if we have to live with one of these people for four years and listen to them talk, I'd rather have somebody who's making funny jokes that make me laugh rather than, you know, somebody who's obviously reading another prepared speech that they didn't write.

[2085] Exactly.

[2086] Or somebody where you really don't get a sense of who they really are, like a Hillary Clinton, who's a career politician.

[2087] She's a chameleon.

[2088] She's just saying what she thinks the polls are going to favor.

[2089] So then if, you know, the part that drives me the craziest is 321 million people, you said, and the two people that we're voting on at the end of this thing are Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump.

[2090] That's hilarious.

[2091] That's the problem.

[2092] Well, nobody wants that fucking magnifying glass turned on their life.

[2093] My stepdad said, if you were a really august person, and you're going to sit there.

[2094] What does that word?

[2095] August, it just means you're really powerful, formidable human being.

[2096] How do you spell it?

[2097] Like August?

[2098] Yeah.

[2099] And so you sit down there, if you're, he said, those kind of people divide a piece of paper in half and they write pros on one side and cons on the other.

[2100] And they're running for president and they go down the pros and the cons he goes because the cons outnumber the pros five to one it might be a hundred yeah i'm not going to have as much power as i have now i blah blah blah blah everyone's gonna hate you and he's he says so so people who are really intelligent if they do that calculation the calculation says don't run for president you'd be an idiot now he says people though who run anyway it's because something on the pro side outweighs everything on the cons side like i want to be on tv all the time or i want to be the most powerful person in the world.

[2101] Or it's the natural extension.

[2102] I've been a senator.

[2103] Whatever it is.

[2104] In other words, there's some ego question that's out, that's, that's drowning all the cons.

[2105] And he said, that's why you have to be careful because that's, so, so you either have somebody who's not intelligent enough to weigh the pros and cons or somebody who's so smart that the cons outweigh the pros and they choose to do it anyway.

[2106] What a crazy system when you think that that is the way we develop a person who is going to be in control of nuclear weapons.

[2107] We have a popularity contest where to win the popularity contest, which is totally, you know, elective, you don't have to join, but to get into this contest and to win, you're going to your life's going to be torn apart.

[2108] They're going to go over, people are going to lie about you.

[2109] And look at your favorite person and say, you know, you go look at some of these candidates from the past that we like to lionize.

[2110] Would they have even made it through the process today?

[2111] Imagine what Kennedy would have had to.

[2112] Imagine what John Kennedy would, the kind of things that would, he'd have all these women coming forward.

[2113] Can you imagine?

[2114] He would never made it.

[2115] Well, the Dr. Field Goods would show up.

[2116] Oh, my God.

[2117] Yeah, they used to give him, like, amphetamines, right?

[2118] Yeah, he had, like, some serious disease, didn't he?

[2119] Addison's disease, yeah.

[2120] What is that?

[2121] That's a glandia, a problem with the glands where it's not providing adrenaline, I think.

[2122] Don't quote me on that.

[2123] Wow.

[2124] So they had him on some sort of amphetamines.

[2125] Well, he was apparently on a lot of medication.

[2126] I think he had the last rights given to him once before because he came so close to dying.

[2127] Jesus.

[2128] Well, and truthfully, I read that it impacted the way he kind of saw his life because he didn't expected to be a long life and so it impacted on how but if you if somebody told you joe you're not going to have well you're not going to have a long life how much does that change the way you live the rest of your life you probably live crazy you probably go jet skiing every day maybe skydiving or maybe you try to try to get the things on your bucket list uh in terms of accomplishments done more quickly or um but but you look at someone like that and said could a guy like that have made it through the process could linden johnson had made it through the process could rich i mean all those people lived in a time period that was a lot less of a fishbowl than today.

[2129] And if you say that these great leaders can't make it through the process and the only people that make it through the process are the ones who've been so careful, never taken a risk, lied like crazy.

[2130] I mean, if you say those are the only people that can make it through the process, then maybe that explains why with 321 million people, this is the choice we end up with at the end of the day.

[2131] Well, we also have this problem where we look at someone's entire life and we look at all the different things that they do and we decide whether or not we accept certain things.

[2132] like we're not talking about whether or not someone's honest with business we want you to be honest with everything yeah you gotta be you gotta get c average on everything you can't have an a in here and it but i mean the truly great people as we know are often very flawed yes yeah very flawed and also like what percentage of people who want to be leaders like think about that thing right you want to be the one on the podium telling everybody what's up what percentage of those guys want to fuck other women is it a hundred right i mean just i can't answer But if you think about, like, nature, like the natural leader types, like, throughout human history, what percentage of those have been monogamous?

[2133] Those ones who want to control the army, the ones who want to run the thing, the ones who want to be at the top getting everybody to do their bidding, the ones who want to have all the money and all the power and live in the castle, those guys are almost all adulterers.

[2134] you know it does it does argue for the idea that it might be better to appoint somebody who doesn't want the job is like somebody had talked about that with police officers and they had said listen there are all kinds of police officers but if you're the one who wants the job because you're going to chase bad guys and you want that adrenaline rush and the whole thing you're not the guy who should get the job right or a guy who wants respect yes well like and you you can see the funny thing is and somebody sent this to me a long time ago they showed there's all these different um like um recruit videos that the different police agencies have, right?

[2135] And some of them are more like, you can get cats out of trees, you can help old ladies, and some of them are like, you can drive a great car, and the funny thing is that I would imagine that that influences the sort of people that answer your ad.

[2136] Oh, for sure.

[2137] I mean, they have billboards in L .A., where they used to at least, to try to hire new cops, and they did it based on the money.

[2138] Like, this is how much money you can get.

[2139] L .A. PD is paying this amount, and they'd show it, and you're like, drive by, like, oh, I can make that amount.

[2140] Maybe I should try to do that job.

[2141] What if you appointed cops?

[2142] But I mean, a billboard, what I'm saying is like, when you're advertising, it's the same problem you have when you're advertising for drug companies.

[2143] You get people thinking, like, oh, maybe I need that ability in my life.

[2144] Oh, Humerida.

[2145] Ooh, I need that.

[2146] That seems like I like the music they're playing.

[2147] I like how everybody's dancing.

[2148] Oh, I like how that cop looks up there.

[2149] He looks formidable.

[2150] He looks like a man who gets respect.

[2151] Look, he's got his hands on his hips, and he's got a nice car behind him.

[2152] and look, as a female squad leader with him, I wonder if he fucks her.

[2153] You know, like, people start, you look at an ad, and you start imagining yourself in the position of that person in that ad, and then next thing you know, you know, you're the one who's going to go get the bad guys, and you're the one who's going to go.

[2154] But, yeah, if you talk to a real cop, like, a good cop is someone who respects community, someone who wants to help, someone who wants to establish some sort of a bond with the people that are in the community that he patrols.

[2155] That's why they're trying to do in some neighborhoods.

[2156] They're trying to have more people on foot than actually walk through the streets and become a part of the community.

[2157] You're not an outsider that's patrolling it.

[2158] You're actually one of the people that's there.

[2159] It goes to what we were saying about the politicians that will tie it all in.

[2160] Why are you doing this?

[2161] Are you doing this because you want to be the person at the podium that everybody's admiring?

[2162] You want to be the person that everyone's talking about?

[2163] Or are you sincerely interested in public service and helping things?

[2164] I mean, what if you...

[2165] I can think of 20 people that you would say, God, it'd be interesting to see what that person would do in the presidency, right?

[2166] But like you said, I can't imagine any of them wanting to do it.

[2167] None of them are going to want to do it.

[2168] Mark Cuban has wanted to be the president.

[2169] Elon Musk's not going to want to be the president.

[2170] I think we really need a council.

[2171] I think the idea of one singular alpha chimpanzee.

[2172] Well, Joe, that's what it's supposed to do.

[2173] Remember what we're supposed to be, if everybody remembers their founding father, federalist papers and everything.

[2174] the presidency was a much, much, much less powerful job.

[2175] This was a country that was run by the legislative branch, basically.

[2176] We're not that way anymore because of a whole bunch of things, including the nuclear weapons thing we talked about earlier.

[2177] The atomic age changed the presidency because of the need to have one person.

[2178] You couldn't declare war anymore because what if the missiles are on their way to you now, right?

[2179] Can you really go to Congress and debate it and have the – no, you needed a person who would have – minutes could launch a counter strike.

[2180] Okay, well, how much power does that take out of, you know, the hands of the legislature who was supposed to be running things?

[2181] For example, why do we not declare war anymore?

[2182] We haven't declared war since the second world war.

[2183] We have a country that the Constitution says you can't go to war without a declaration.

[2184] Certainly not, you can get some Barbary pirates cleared out of North Africa, but you can't like, that's why Congress, by the way, with the Trump thing is they want to say that you can't launch nuclear weapons unless Congress has declared war first.

[2185] which creates this wonderful thing about trying to figure out if we can sort of retroactively replace a power that's been gone since 1942.

[2186] We declared war on like Romania and something else.

[2187] The subsidiary powers in the Second War, and that's the last time it's been done.

[2188] But according to the Constitution, we shouldn't have been able to fight a war since without that.

[2189] It's going to be very interesting to see what happens in 2020.

[2190] It's going to be really interesting.

[2191] And to remove some of the power that the president has is going to be a really.

[2192] really big uphill battle, unless someone actually drops a nuke on somebody, unless Trump decides to bomb North Korea.

[2193] Like, Kim John Owens says something about his wife, like, you, you piece of shit, he fucking launches a bomb at him.

[2194] Unless it's something so egregious and ridiculous like that, it's going to be really hard to dial back the power without any real specific need.

[2195] Because people are going to concentrate on all the other issues that the country faces economically, militarily, the need for health care, the need for, you know, environmental standards, what are we going to do about global warming?

[2196] There's so many issues that take the front stage, the idea of someone actually launching a nuclear attack seems so distant and ridiculous that that's not going to be on the forefront of everybody's list of priorities of things to handle.

[2197] It makes me think of Eisenhower ordering the local German population at the end of the Second World War to go tour the death camps themselves and actually have to walk past piles and piles and piles of human bodies because he wanted them to not forget.

[2198] You're going to look at this.

[2199] And I didn't know he did that.

[2200] Oh, yeah.

[2201] When you look at the end of the World Wars, for example, in both of them, people were so shocked by what happened.

[2202] You get this idea that we're never again, right?

[2203] We're never going to let this happen again.

[2204] But you get a generation later, two generations later.

[2205] How long does it take for those lessons to fade away?

[2206] So when I hear or read on Twitter, it's probably some 13 -year -old boy in his basement, so you never know.

[2207] But the racial stuff, I always think to myself, if you only, you know, maybe we need some dead bodies out there so you can go see this is what it looks like right we're not fooling around here this kind of stuff leads to this uh stop fooling around with 140 characters and look at what real death taste smells like and what the long term ramifications of pushing these sorts of attitudes can lead to and has over and over and over again well i think there's a real problem with the human condition when it comes to complacency and comfort and i think that we get real comfortable and real complacent and we have a very distorted idea of what life is is without struggle.

[2208] And there's a great book by Sebastian Younger who was on last week.

[2209] Oh yeah.

[2210] And it's called Tribe.

[2211] Yeah.

[2212] He did a perfect storm too.

[2213] It was wonderful.

[2214] Yeah.

[2215] He's amazing.

[2216] But talking to him about what happens when people overcome significant tragedies, whether it's war or whether it's natural disasters or, you know, I was in New York right after 9 -11.

[2217] And it was palpable, the sense of community and how friendly people were.

[2218] And it was because people had had their world shaken up by an attack, and it literally did good.

[2219] It really did good for the people that survived in a fucked up way.

[2220] But it makes me think of that project for a New America document that before 9 -11 had said that there's, you know, without some kind of Pearl Harbor style attack, the American system is designed right now in a way where people are going to pull apart more and more.

[2221] And in other words, just saying, you know, you could almost wish for something like that to happen to pull us together.

[2222] I remember when I was horrible thought though, right?

[2223] Yeah, and maybe it's the only way we learn and you need the refresher.

[2224] But that's what I think people need war in their own life.

[2225] And I think they need struggle.

[2226] I need struggle.

[2227] They need something to do in their own life that's incredibly difficult to keep them from being.

[2228] Yeah, but there's too many of us not complacent mundane.

[2229] When I was trying to localize the story from the, the Yugoslavian Civil War that we were just talking about earlier, I interviewed a Croatian man in Eugene.

[2230] And we were talking about it, and I was bringing up these age -old hatreds and basically saying, you know, they've always hated each other, and he stopped me. He said, now, stop, stop, stop, stop.

[2231] He goes, we didn't.

[2232] He goes, up until recently, we were intermarrying with each other.

[2233] We got along.

[2234] It was all working out.

[2235] He goes, you know what changed?

[2236] I said, what?

[2237] He goes, the economy tanked.

[2238] He goes, and all of a sudden, he goes, the first thing that started to resurface when everybody was just hating everything, their lives and everything.

[2239] He goes, all of a sudden, all these old things that had been buried just came right back.

[2240] And so that tribalism you're talking about with younger, I think there are times, and you had mentioned it, right?

[2241] Post -war eras, these times when they go away.

[2242] Post -disaster.

[2243] Yes, but then certain kinds of conditions, for example, terrible economic conditions for too many people, it's funny how quickly the scapegoats come back and things that, I mean, truthfully, I mean, the biggest thing that I've missed politically in terms of just, I just didn't see it, was the resurgence of the racism, bigotry, prejudice thing.

[2244] I mean, I thought, you know, we grew up in the era where our, Our country was trying to figure out through things like broadcasting, how we transition.

[2245] So you remember all in the family when it started.

[2246] It's a show that doesn't even run very much anymore because simply trying to address those issues is too hot button for most advertisers now.

[2247] You could never have an Archie Bunker character today.

[2248] But that whole show was part of society's attempt to transition from an era where it wasn't that long beforehand where you couldn't stay in a hotel that wasn't a black or a white person's hotel in the South to one where we got now.

[2249] And I always thought, okay, the message of Archie.

[2250] bunker was they would try to you know teach him the young people would try to teach him about how to be a more open human being and but it didn't matter because the archie bunkers of the world were going to die off they were the dinosaurs from another era and eventually that would be a way of looking at things that was in the past and i didn't i thought that that was what it was going to be and i never i never saw the resurgence but like my Croatian friend had said just maybe things had to get bad enough economically and whatever for all the tribal things to just come back because that's there's something deep in us that that's all embedded in.

[2251] I think there's far less of those people now than ever existed before.

[2252] But that's stunned me too.

[2253] And it's so homogenized when you see them with their fucking Home Depot torches walking on the street.

[2254] You fucking dorks.

[2255] The whole thing was so goofy.

[2256] Did you hear Richard Spencer?

[2257] He did the white supremacist.

[2258] But he did it he did an interview about two weeks ago where he was basically saying slavery was good and all these kind of things.

[2259] Oh, that British man?

[2260] Yes.

[2261] Yes.

[2262] And the British guy at the end said something like you're an idiot or whatever.

[2263] But I mean, it was.

[2264] It was a ridiculous thing to say.

[2265] And yet, normally, you know, you remember 60 Minutes used to have the KKK white supremacist guys in the old days on, like once a year.

[2266] They'd interview like the Grand Dragon or whatever.

[2267] And they give them a lot of airtime.

[2268] And Mike Wallace would question him.

[2269] And at the end of it, you just always thought the same thing.

[2270] These people are idiots, right?

[2271] It was the give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves type journalism.

[2272] I just thought that journalist, like everybody was talking about, the guy did the perfect interview with him.

[2273] But I honestly think that's not the way to do the perfect interview with him.

[2274] I think that guy's standing up.

[2275] They're standing up facing each other.

[2276] I think they'd be far better off if they sat down and if they talked for a long period of time.

[2277] And I think there's plenty more rope.

[2278] And that guy could have hung him way better.

[2279] There's a book by a black gentleman who's a musician, a boogie -woogie piano player.

[2280] I don't remember his name.

[2281] What is that?

[2282] It was a book on...

[2283] Boogie?

[2284] It's a style?

[2285] It was a book on the clan.

[2286] And he was a guy, a black man, who, I'm going from memory here, but he, like, set up an interview with one of the heads of the state clan or whatever, didn't tell the guy who was coming that he was a black man. And so they had this interview, and it's this interesting thing.

[2287] He says, but long story short, he started to make friends with these KKK members.

[2288] And it wasn't like rank and file people.

[2289] It was like the Grand Dragon, whatever.

[2290] That's the guy, right?

[2291] How one man convinced 200 Ku Klux Klan members to give up their rows.

[2292] Wow.

[2293] And basically, but long story short is, I mean, these were people, they didn't have any black people they knew, right?

[2294] They had stereotypes and things.

[2295] So he said once you're, like you had said, when you're face to face with somebody and you have to interact with them on an eye to eye level, it's very intriguing what he did because you say to yourself, okay, you can never reach these Archie Bunker guys, but people have and do.

[2296] And I do want to say, listen, for all of the white supremacists out there that think I'm being unfair, this racial tribal thing is all over the place because there are, you know, like you will meet black folks who are racist too.

[2297] Now what I always say to people, though, is the one thing you have to understand is a white person that's different is we're the dominant culture, okay?

[2298] It does make things different.

[2299] If you're a minority in any country, there's a tendency, I mean, you go to the place and they'll have neighborhoods, right?

[2300] Remember the Italian neighborhoods in our country, the Jewish neighborhoods, the Irish neighborhoods?

[2301] Why did they do that?

[2302] Were they racist?

[2303] No, there's some strength in gathering with your own kind, reading your own newspaper, and keeping your culture alive.

[2304] That's right.

[2305] But it's also a self -defense mechanism, right?

[2306] So it's a very different thing to say, well, listen, they're being racist too.

[2307] Okay, but we're the dominant culture, and it means that there's something a little different when we say, what's wrong with saying, you know, white people should be proud of their heritage, too.

[2308] Theoretically nothing.

[2309] But historically speaking, there are some issues.

[2310] And you need to recognize that.

[2311] Now, can we ever get to a time when we can judge people by the content of their character?

[2312] I don't know, but I think even if white people said, we're going to do that right now, there'd be people of other colors going, no, wait a minute, we don't want to give up, you know, some extra admissions into universities, and we don't, you know, it becomes a very difficult thing to give up this racial identity.

[2313] In the 60s, that was the goal.

[2314] Now, people on all sides would be, what are you talking about?

[2315] It's very, you know, the cultural appropriation thing drives me crazy.

[2316] Like, if you're going to have dreadlocks, you can't because that's a black hairstyle.

[2317] What I always want to say is, don't black people want to try different hairstyles, too?

[2318] They do.

[2319] Look at Beyonce.

[2320] Creativity is putting things together.

[2321] never went together before this is not only that it's not even historically correct you know as well as i do that dreadlocks have been around for a long fucking time with white people but think about how it just polarizes us even more if you really want it's not real though it's people looking for things to be polarized yes and again i do think and i love academia i could have i could have got swept up i enjoyed school at the college level so much i could still be there today i mean i've never gotten a job i would just be one of those guys i'm a graduate student at 51 helping the professors but at the same time look Look, we all understand that those people are incentivized to come up with new theories, new ideas, groundbreaking, cutting edge.

[2322] You know, this is what they're rewarded for with the carrots and sticks.

[2323] So I get it.

[2324] It's different when it spreads to the general culture a little bit, though, because now we're not in the ivory tower having a theoretical debate.

[2325] We're sitting there going, should that person be shamed on Twitter because he's an Asian person with dreadlocks?

[2326] Right.

[2327] Okay, folks, if you don't see that that might backfire on you down the road, I mean, we've all got to cut each other some slack on all sides if we're going to make this work.

[2328] Well, it's cultural appropriation is one of the things that makes America so fascinating.

[2329] Totally.

[2330] The melting pot of humans all together, exploring each other's food and all the various aspects of their communities.

[2331] And the funny part is the cultural appropriators out there are sometimes the most sympathetic to that side.

[2332] I mean, if you're willing to get a Rastafarian's hairstyle, you're probably not an anti -Black racist, right?

[2333] So when you tell them that they shouldn't be doing that, aren't you going after the people most?

[2334] likely to see your side of things and help you and push angels to what I'm saying it's almost like we're eating our own on all sides exactly like that and on the left it is particularly about eating your own because you can't be progressive enough yeah there's always going to be someone who's more progressive than you but that's just how we you know when I was a punk back in the old days and I remember saying that we were killing the movement because the biggest thing was was this idea of a poser right and the first thing everybody said we didn't welcome you into the group we said when did you start wearing these clothes when did you get that hairstyle you pose or in other words the entire thing was exclusive.

[2335] Right.

[2336] So you try to build this movement.

[2337] You have to be an OG.

[2338] Yeah, it was ridiculous.

[2339] How many years you have to be a punk for before you're allowed to be a punk?

[2340] That's right.

[2341] And can you go in slowly?

[2342] I mean, I remember them they were going after like John Lide and Johnny Rodney.

[2343] You're a poser.

[2344] Okay.

[2345] Well, then what are we doing here?

[2346] But I mean, in the same way, the one thing you have to do is cut people some slack.

[2347] And the one thing we human beings seem to have such a problem with is cutting people slack.

[2348] And it seems to be, if you say the social media, it seems to be worse because you'll cut somebody's slack face to face.

[2349] more easily than you will, you know, when you can just throw 140 characters and you go to bed, but that comedian on the other side of your 140 characters, I mean, let me just, you've seen this, and I've seen this, but if you've never been on the receiving end of these things where people, and I've been very lucky and people have been very nice and kind to me, but even I, when you read these things, you go, who is this person?

[2350] Right.

[2351] And why do they think that this is, did they, did their lives get better because they texted me this?

[2352] I mean, do you see what I'm saying?

[2353] I don't get the motivation.

[2354] They don't even know it.

[2355] They don't even know it.

[2356] They're not thinking about it.

[2357] They're just acting.

[2358] It's a human.

[2359] instinct, they hurt and they want to hurt others.

[2360] That's what you told me years ago.

[2361] You told me, and that's what I said.

[2362] You've helped me a lot when I look at those things, and I think Joe's right.

[2363] Joe, this is people that are angry with their situation and they're, what did they say?

[2364] It's like the crabs in a pot and one crab's in a bucket.

[2365] Yeah, you're crabs in a bucket and you pull the crab down.

[2366] And it's too bad because, you know what?

[2367] A lot of those people are the very people who could be doing much better if we could figure out a way to help empower them, to unleash their thing.

[2368] They do.

[2369] There's people that have been haters that aren't haters.

[2370] anymore and unfortunately a lot of people have already blocked them or just that's right just dissatisfied people that are so upset with the way things are i mean i really i would love to see more effort made in that regard because i think the subsidiary down -the -road domino effects would help us all so much but listen we're a country that can't even get the most basic things past how are we going to get something like that done i think change is happening i think it's happening incredibly rapidly but i think we're stuck in the mix of it and we don't realize it It's sort of like when you come over someone's house and you haven't been over their house in like five years and all of a sudden their kid is 10.

[2371] You're like, holy shit, you're 10 now?

[2372] To them, it just happened gradually and slowly and they barely have noticed it.

[2373] But to you, when you take five years off and then you see that kid, you're like, holy shit.

[2374] The frog in the hot water thing, right?

[2375] It's happening.

[2376] It is happening.

[2377] But is it positive.

[2378] See, this is where I can't, again, in the maelstrom trying to analyze it, but is it positive or negative?

[2379] Now, you're an optimist, Joe.

[2380] We've had this conversation before, and I'm a little bit more cynical and misanthropic, maybe.

[2381] But I worry about figuring it out.

[2382] So if you say that human beings individually and as groups learn by mistakes, do you have to have a Holocaust -type mistake to come out of this before we go, wow, well, here's where we screwed up on that social media thing?

[2383] I mean, I wonder whether we're going to be allowed.

[2384] I don't know how you would turn the genie, put the genie back in the bottle.

[2385] but I mean at what point do terrorists or dangerous people or I mean look at the to go back to that weather underground new left bombing thing that I said that they didn't know the south they didn't like me waterboarding Abby Hoffman but I mean if you had a bunch of people back then with Twitter saying I support the the Abby Hoffman's I support the okay at what point would the government first of all get you on a watch list then or now but at what point would somebody have said listen for our own good we can't have average Americans because look how many terrorists are you using this tool.

[2386] I mean, we'll see what happens, but you'd mention 9 -11 and how, you know, so much of that there was a feeling of community and all that of the stuff, but there was other things too.

[2387] There were, there was the government literally, and I remember Peter DeFazio, the congressman up in Oregon who said this to me. He said, Dan, he said, there were bills that had been written and put on a shelf because there was no way to pass them for the longest time.

[2388] And he goes, when 9 -11 happened, they pulled all those bills down, cobbled him into one thing.

[2389] And then he said, here's the real scandal, and most people don't know this.

[2390] He says, do you know how many parts of that bill were blank that we signed to be filled in later?

[2391] He said, that's not unusual.

[2392] He goes, because we get a lot of bills that they haven't figured out all the details, but he goes, most bills aren't as important as that.

[2393] When he goes, we signed off to a bunch of things with a bunch of blank categories to be filled in later.

[2394] Okay, gets us back to leadership right there.

[2395] What's wrong with the country?

[2396] A bunch of people signing a bunch of stuff that have nothing in it yet.

[2397] Like I said before, when you're talking about, like, are you optimistic or are you pessimistic?

[2398] Is it negative or is it positive?

[2399] It's both.

[2400] And I think the negative and the positive are both necessary.

[2401] I don't think we're going to live in this utopian world where everybody's just friendly to each other.

[2402] I think people are going to make mistakes.

[2403] They're going to be shitty.

[2404] They're going to realize that they're shitty.

[2405] And the understanding of that behavior and the ramifications of that behavior is becoming more and more apparent every day.

[2406] And I think we're seeing that.

[2407] And I think we're caught up in this storm.

[2408] And there's a fucking hurricane going on man this cow's flying by and bathtubs in the air all this stuff is happening right now the hope is though that we can get to the good because I might agree with you in the long term right if you're saying optimistic real long term yeah but how many I mean if you said in 1900 I'm optimistic long term that by the year 2000 things will be better yes but you have two world wars to go through in the interim and the near misses on nuclear wars so I can agree with you that long term we may have a positive outcome here I don't know what our immediate short term You and I have 20, 34, you probably have 100 years left on your lifespan, but some of us are not in great shape.

[2409] So if you said the next 20, 25, 30 years, are you going to see good or bad from this?

[2410] We may have to go through some learning experiences, and those tend to not be so fun to live through.

[2411] Yeah, there's that, but also there's like, how about just disengage from that every now?

[2412] I do.

[2413] I agree with you.

[2414] Don't have your life completely dependent upon the success and failures of other people's emotions and ideas.

[2415] Just go off on your own more often.

[2416] spend more time by yourself more time pursuing your own activity spend more time in nature with your phone off spend more time the nature things a really good idea too it's giant and you know what because folks that's what connects you to all the other human beings who ever live before us the thing that makes our time period different here this vast human experiment is we've never had a generation growing up with mobile phones for example yeah what does that mean well one thing it does is it takes you away from the part that your answer I mean looking up at a night sky with nothing to do for hours, just sitting there contemplating the silence or the rustling of the trees or whatever, I don't know if you get anything out of that or not, but that's something that human beings have done since caveman times that you're sharing an experience that's innately human.

[2417] If that becomes less and less common because we're detached from that, what does that mean?

[2418] And like I said, we talked about an experiment earlier, that we're in an experiment.

[2419] What does it mean when people detach from that part of the human existence to spend more time in this new part of human existence.

[2420] I don't know.

[2421] Well, I think that part of being a person, like being in nature, it's part of us.

[2422] It's part of how we developed.

[2423] It's attached to our human reward system.

[2424] There's something that's deeply satisfying about lying down in a field and looking up at the stars.

[2425] There's a reason for all that.

[2426] And the more we detach from that, the more you're going to get these disenfranchised, very unhappy people that feel like they're a prisoner or a slave to some system that's, doesn't give a fuck about them because it doesn't it really doesn't what the people that give a fuck about you are your community they're your friends the the the the community of like -minded humans that you've bonded with that share your occupation or share your interests and that's how people develop satisfying relationships and satisfying lives the more you put yourself connected to something that doesn't even value you some huge monolithic creation that there's no one even running it.

[2427] It's not like some architect that's figured out a great way to design civilization to satisfy all the humans that are a part of it.

[2428] No, you're feeding this machine in some sort of a weird way that nobody really understands the ramifications of because we haven't done it before.

[2429] There hasn't been this global connection of cell phones for thousands of years.

[2430] We know how to manage it.

[2431] We know how to manage your time and all your emotions on social media.

[2432] No, this is all, this is all experimental it's all happening in the moment and we're all a part of it and what's it going to be like three generations from now i'm scared i'm scared that we're eliminating as much as possible boredom from our lives because i think the boredom is important um when i was a kid we talked about being weird uh when i was a kid um had a lot of free time on my hands had to figure out ways to entertain myself yeah no video games and you you you end up doing things that like, you know, you had talked about your whole, you know, we found this niche for me in this history show thing because it's what I was born to do or whatever.

[2433] Yes, but it goes back to me trying to figure out, okay, I've played with these toy plastic soldiers every single day.

[2434] How do I make something new so that I can be entertained with these same toy soldier?

[2435] You know, and I think that all, you know, if we think about building blocks in your brain, the need to overcome boredom, for example, is a prime mover when you're young.

[2436] You're not motivated by money.

[2437] You're not motivate it's it's it's you're not even motivated by by the opposite sex you know when you're a kid you're like what am I going to do to fill this afternoon and you find ways to you know you know I remember tearing up my mom's garden wants to create a giant a river system you know yeah yeah okay but but would you do that today would you even bother took hours I mean I wouldn't but maybe a kid would maybe there's maybe there's an app where you can do the do the same thing on my point is is that there's these sorts of prime movers end up creating their needs that create the need for solutions if you get rid of that need, do you need the solution anymore?

[2438] And did the need for the solution create a different Joe Rogan, Dan Carlin, or Joe blow out on the street, then would have been otherwise.

[2439] We talked about creating a more formidable human being.

[2440] Having to overcome my childhood boredom created a more formidable human being.

[2441] It did.

[2442] Dan Carlin, we just did three hours.

[2443] Again.

[2444] Just went flying by, man. It always does.

[2445] We got to do this more often.

[2446] We always say this.

[2447] But can we please?

[2448] I may do a book soon.

[2449] Would you like to have a stupid book tour?

[2450] Yes.

[2451] A stupid book tour.

[2452] interview?

[2453] When are you going to do that?

[2454] I don't know.

[2455] Same time the virtual reality comes out.

[2456] Well, let's please sit down and talk more often.

[2457] I really enjoy it.

[2458] Can I just tell you, you're one of the most open -minded people, though, and I do quote you at times, because you've taught me a lot.

[2459] Well, thank you, brother.

[2460] And you've taught me a lot, too.

[2461] I appreciate it.

[2462] Dan Carlin, ladies and gentlemen, hardcore history.

[2463] Go download.

[2464] Subscribe.

[2465] Bye.