S1: E7 - Recovery

[0] I'm John Walsack, host of the new podcast, Missing in Arizona.

[1] And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world.

[2] We cloned his voice using AI.

[3] In 2001, police say I killed my family and rigged my house to explode.

[4] Before escaping into the wilderness.

[5] Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere.

[6] Join me. I'm going down in the cave.

[7] As I track down clues.

[8] I'm going to call the police and have you removed.

[9] Hunting.

[10] One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.

[11] Robert Fisher.

[12] Do you recognize my voice?

[13] Listen to missing in Arizona every Wednesday.

[14] on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

[15] The podium is back with fresh angles and deep dives into Olympic and Paralympic stories you know, and those you'll be hard -pressed to forget.

[16] I did something in 88 that hasn't been beaten.

[17] Oh, gosh, the U .S. Olympic trials is the hardest and most competitive meat in the world.

[18] We are athletes who are going out there, smashing into each other, full force.

[19] Listen to the podium on the IHeart app or your favorite podcast, weekly and every day during the Games to hear the Olympics like you've never quite heard them before.

[20] In 2020, in a small California mountain town, five women disappeared.

[21] I found out what happened to all of them, except one, a woman known as Dia, whose estate is worth millions of dollars.

[22] I'm Lucy Sheriff.

[23] Over the past four years, I've spoken with Dia's family and friends, and I've discovered that everyone has a different version of events.

[24] Hear the story on Where's Deer?

[25] Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[26] Hi, Betrayal listeners.

[27] This week, we just wanted to quickly drop a note to our listeners and say, thank you.

[28] We've been taking the time to read through all of your emails that you submitted at Betrayalpod at gmail .com.

[29] Because so many of you have reached out with your own stories, questions, and feedback, we plan to release bonus content with updates and resources.

[30] So stay tuned.

[31] But first, here's episode seven.

[32] This podcast discusses sexual assault.

[33] Please take care while listening.

[34] I was packing up to go and was in my office and she surprised me. I think she said something like, what are you doing?

[35] Going home, I said.

[36] That's too bad, she responded.

[37] I was in shock and surprised by her closeness.

[38] Then I remember a kiss.

[39] It was so very consensual.

[40] I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is betrayal.

[41] Episode 7, Recovery.

[42] In the first year after Spencer's arrest, Jennifer fought hard to move forward and heal.

[43] All the while, Spencer was sending letters from jail telling her how sorry he was.

[44] I want to restore our marriage, and I'll do whatever it takes for you to believe me about that.

[45] I promised myself to be real with you about my.

[46] true feelings, and that promise also makes me say that I 100 % believe we can get through this.

[47] Jennifer understood she was experiencing trauma.

[48] She sought help from wise, empathetic voices that helped her find her footing.

[49] My name is Kim Gould.

[50] I am a betrayal trauma specialist and coach.

[51] It is my deepest passion to help people heal from trauma and reclaim their lives.

[52] I do this profound work at the Center for Relational Healing in Los Angeles, and then in my own intimacy coaching practice, I help people take that healing to the next level.

[53] Kim, I get so emotional when I think about you and the part that you've played on this journey with me. And I'm just really, really grateful.

[54] You know, when all this happened, I didn't know betrayal trauma was a thing.

[55] And it's a thing.

[56] Certainly, yes.

[57] It is what we commonly refer to as the shattered worldview.

[58] The trial trauma basically takes away everything that you thought you knew to be true or safe or just in the world.

[59] So you're literally like a little baby trying to learn to learn to learn to live.

[60] walk and talk and make sense of things in a nonsensical world and what feels like a very dangerous world.

[61] In the beginning especially, I walked around feeling like there was an elephant standing on my chest.

[62] Yeah, it certainly is physiological, emotional, spiritual, cognitive and mental.

[63] The trial trauma feels like, and it does.

[64] hijack the person going through it, and it did that to you at the beginning as well.

[65] Physiologically, a large part of that is because your nervous system has been shut.

[66] There's no place to find safety, and your nervous system will send you into a hypervigilant state.

[67] And the body and the brain are sending you into fight, flight, freeze.

[68] So many behaviors come from seeking safety.

[69] The being a detective and checking emails and texts all night long for hours and hours and not able to sleep.

[70] This would look like oh, the betrayed partner or the woman is going crazy.

[71] And there are unfortunately times where women have been misdiagnosed.

[72] As an example of this, many women, have been labeled as having a personality disorder, when they are really just adapting to this earth -shattering trauma and did not even have these symptoms before the event.

[73] And every single thing we see a betrayed partner doing is safety -seeking behavior.

[74] I relate to that so much, and I think that's why I'm so consumed by needing to know who it was that I'm married, because I didn't know him.

[75] I didn't know a whole side day.

[76] him and that's so scary.

[77] Honestly, my biggest fear coming out of this and sharing this story with everyone is I know people are going to ask, how could she not know?

[78] How did you not see any signs?

[79] And I just didn't.

[80] Probably at least 50 % of the betrayed partners I work with say it's like being with Jekyll and Hyde.

[81] These are not people who, for the most part, were mean or uncaring to their partners.

[82] The majority of the women that I've worked with, similar to you, Jen, were astounded and surprised, and they were very smart women and very intelligent, intuitive women.

[83] These are not women who've had their blinders on.

[84] What we're talking about is the acting out partner, being so unbelievably skilled at gaslighting and manipulation.

[85] And such severe compartmentalization in the brain.

[86] To be able to go out during the day and do certain things that are terrible and totally against the value system of your marriage, and then to come home and act like he loves you and things are fine, I trust that Spence was really, really practiced and success.

[87] at that because you are a very intelligent woman and you're not naive and you didn't see it and most betrayed partners don't you listen to my conversation with the student i did it was very touching talking with her and the other two women that's what this whole journey has been about it's really helped me understand the other side of this person that i thought i really knew As the police were leading Spence out the front door of our house handcuffed, I yelled out to them, he's a good person.

[88] Even after finding out that he just committed this awful, awful crime against a young person, I still needed them to know he was a good person.

[89] because in my head, he was somebody completely different.

[90] My reality was shattered, and it had not registered.

[91] And I'm still struggling to understand the way he was with me and the way that I know he behaved and treated many, many, many other women.

[92] You know, I haven't been able to do any kind of assessment or diagnosis or anything like that clinically.

[93] But I would guess that there are other things going on besides addiction.

[94] Like what?

[95] It feels to me like there were splinters of his personality.

[96] He learned how he was supposed to be a good, healthy husband, and maybe there was this other part of him that he didn't know how to express.

[97] In the beginning, all Jen had to make.

[98] sense of her life and all the lies were long confessional letters and apologies from Spencer.

[99] She wasn't falling for it.

[100] But that didn't stop him from attempting to manipulate her from his jail cell.

[101] That first Thanksgiving, he sent her a three -page letter on all the things he was thankful for.

[102] I'm thankful for her getting to marry my dream girl.

[103] I'm thankful that you said yes.

[104] I'm thankful that one day there is a chance that you might forgive me. I'm thankful that at some point I might get a shot at life again.

[105] I'm so very thankful for second chances.

[106] I'm thankful that I will always have hope that my future could possibly have you in it.

[107] Jennifer, I'm thankful for you.

[108] There wasn't going to be reconciliation.

[109] The apologies were hollow.

[110] She didn't trust him.

[111] How could she?

[112] Her eyes were wide open, and she wanted to see who he really was once and for all.

[113] Maybe then she could understand what he did and why this happened to her.

[114] Knowing what I do about Spencer's behavior now, I feel like there was this compulsion that he just couldn't control.

[115] In another letter sent from jail, Spencer theorized that it must have been his need for attention that caused his problems, long before he and Jennifer reconnected after college.

[116] I remember once getting a message from a woman saying she was thinking of me. It was such a rush.

[117] I had never had that.

[118] That became my search.

[119] This is all backstory.

[120] It's what I've discovered with so much thinking, meditation, and of course, prayer.

[121] You asked me when the cops were coming to get me if I was a sex addict.

[122] my answer is still absolutely no my problem was at a much more intimate level attention seeking approval seeking I'm John Walzac host of the new podcast missing in Arizona and I'm Robert Fisher one of the most wanted men in the world we cloned his voice using AI in 2001 police say I killed my family first mom then the kids and rigged my house to explode in a quiet suburb this is the Beverly Hills of the valley before escaping into the wilderness.

[123] There was sleet and hail and snow coming down.

[124] They found my wife's SUV.

[125] Right on the reservation boundary.

[126] And my dog blew.

[127] All I could think of is gonna sniper me out of some tree.

[128] But not me. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere.

[129] For two years.

[130] They won't tell you anything.

[131] I've traveled the nation.

[132] I'm going down in the cave.

[133] Tracking down clues.

[134] They were thinking that I picked him up and took him somewhere.

[135] Keep asking me this.

[136] I'm gonna call the police and have you removed.

[137] Searching for Robert Fisher.

[138] One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.

[139] Do you recognize my voice?

[140] Join an exploding house.

[141] The hunt.

[142] Family annihilation.

[143] Today.

[144] And a disappearing act.

[145] Listen to missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

[146] The podium is back with fresh angles and deep dives into Olympic and Paralympic stories you know.

[147] And those you'll be hard pressed to forget.

[148] I did something in 88 that hasn't been beaten.

[149] Gosh, the U .S. only of the trials is the hardest and most competitive meat in the world.

[150] We are athletes.

[151] We're going out there, smashing into each other, full force.

[152] Listen to The Podium on the IHeart app or your favorite podcast platform weekly and every day during the games to hear the Olympics like you've never quite heard them before.

[153] In the summer of 2020, in the small mountain town of Idlewild, California, five women disappeared in the span of just a few months.

[154] Eventually, I found out what happened to the women.

[155] all except one, a woman named Lydia Abrams, known as Dia.

[156] Her friends and family ran through endless theories.

[157] Was she hurt hiking?

[158] Did she run away?

[159] Had she been kidnapped?

[160] I'm Lucy Sherrith.

[161] I've been reporting this story for four years, and I've uncovered a tangled web of manipulation, estranged families and greed.

[162] Everyone, it seems, has a different version of a very version of a variant.

[163] events.

[164] Hear the story on Where's Deer, my new podcast from Pushkin Industries and IHeart Podcasts.

[165] Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[166] You can look at sex addiction just like you would with any other addiction.

[167] Gambling, food, heroin, alcohol.

[168] Somewhere along the line, they learned that if I have, this thing I'm going to have relief from pain or it could be the opposite I'm actually going to feel alive for a little while so it's whether someone feels too much feels too little and basically doesn't know how to have healthy coping mechanisms in life but really what makes something an addiction or a compulsive disorder is that the person keeps doing it again and again and again and and it is bringing a lot of harm and dysfunction into their lives and into others, and they keep doing it, and they're not able to stop.

[169] Do you think people with these kind of addictions or compulsions look for a certain type of person to pray on?

[170] You know, there's a big piece of this, which in my opinion is so deeply connected to our patriarchal society that teaches us that women are of the most value, when they are beautiful and getting attention from men.

[171] And they are trained that way from childhood.

[172] And here's, you know, a charismatic man who is giving them attention and this feeds their own need for validation, making them so vulnerable to grooming and the way they are going about trying to find worth in this world.

[173] Hearing Kim say this, maybe think of hope and Jennifer's friend.

[174] They said almost the same thing.

[175] I got this text message, well, you're beautiful.

[176] Here's an attractive guy telling me I'm pretty.

[177] I was stressed out, didn't feel pretty all the time because, you know, I had kids hanging off me, breastfeeding.

[178] I was greasy, maybe showered every couple days, maybe washed up with baby wipes.

[179] But then I would always hear, you know, like, you're so beautiful, you're really, really well -rounded, you're a great mom.

[180] But he says that he never sought after any of this.

[181] He says it was always the women that were giving him the eye or letting him know that it was okay.

[182] When in fact, I have so much communication that proves otherwise.

[183] Here is exactly what he wrote about Jennifer's friend, the one Spencer had sex with at the wine bar.

[184] To my memory, she was staring at me a lot at the bar.

[185] I'm sure I noticed it and tried to dismiss it as just my imagination.

[186] I honestly have no idea how it actually started.

[187] I just don't.

[188] It's not really important anyway.

[189] It's just not.

[190] It was important to Jennifer.

[191] And it seems Spencer had amnesia when it came to how the affair started.

[192] But the women, they remembered specific details.

[193] I went into the bathroom, and when I came out, he was there, and mentioned, like, you know that we have this thing together, you know, you're feeling this too, right?

[194] And then he came in for a kiss, then held my hand and touched his crotch with my hand on the outside of his pants.

[195] What is is how it continued.

[196] I guess she had to be a willing participant.

[197] There were times when you or her husband were out of town.

[198] or when she might just linger at the bar.

[199] I can't give you details because I can't remember them.

[200] When it was over with her, you can't imagine my relief.

[201] That problem in my life was over.

[202] I was so happy.

[203] I think one of the biggest blessings of this situation was that Spence was arrested and has remained locked up.

[204] I haven't had to face him or deal with it except for in letters.

[205] It's truly a blessing because I can't imagine if that person was around to be able to lie about the situation essentially.

[206] I absolutely agree his absence and removal from your space and from your life.

[207] Well, so painful allowed you to hear him more.

[208] quickly, and the extreme of his behaviors made things really definitive and clear for you.

[209] Jennifer took note of how often he used the word love with other women.

[210] It stung.

[211] She pressed Spencer about that, especially with his colleague in the Air Force.

[212] I really thought that he loved me. He had me convinced that he did.

[213] I mean, he told me. Hope.

[214] I know you're really wondering how I use the word love with her.

[215] I don't know how I ever did or could have.

[216] I do not and never did love her.

[217] She's the same as anyone else.

[218] Whenever I did use that word, I can only assume it was to reciprocate her using it or to maybe keep giving me the attention I was still wanting.

[219] In that same letter, Spencer goes on to say, Any time spent with hope was never romantic, anticipated, or anything like that.

[220] Allowing these things to happen was just that, allowing.

[221] Hope and I never had a thing that anyone could see or detect.

[222] It was that cheap and meaningless.

[223] I imagine it happened just as with the other one.

[224] Dumb looks that were accepted as attention and some kind of thing I wanted.

[225] After each time I was unfaithful, I felt disgusting and hurtful to all involve.

[226] Allowing these things to happen almost sounds like his participation was passive.

[227] However, each woman who has spoken has consistently shared that Spencer was clear about his intentions.

[228] And what's sad to me is that in his letters that he writes, he really minimalizes the situations.

[229] with the victim it was consensual she was looking at me she made eyes at me i find that there's a lot of denial and what he believes when people have built up these lies inside of themselves and the ways that they operate in the world for so long it's hard for them to know what's really true and what's not.

[230] He wrote to Jen about the sexual assault victim.

[231] As a warning, it is disturbing.

[232] I had never, ever looked at her in any inappropriate way.

[233] Not at all.

[234] I tell you this so that you know how it all started.

[235] In fact, probably for the last 10 to 15 years, I have not looked at any teen girl as anything but that, a teen girl.

[236] I'd gotten older.

[237] There were no fantasies.

[238] That is 100 % true.

[239] In May, I can remember the students starting to stare at me. Longer looks.

[240] More often.

[241] She was being very obvious, and it started coming out of nowhere.

[242] She also started coming by at the end of school asking random questions for no reason.

[243] She then started lingering at the end of the club.

[244] I started to sense something.

[245] I was packing up to go and was in my office, and she surprised me. I think she said something like, what are you doing?

[246] I'm going home, I said.

[247] That's too bad, she responded.

[248] I was in shock and surprised by her closeness.

[249] Then I remember a kiss.

[250] It was so very consensual.

[251] His account certainly differs from the sexual assault victim's account on how they first became involved.

[252] He had texted me that he had feelings for me. I remember feeling, I don't know, I guess, Shaft, it's an understatement.

[253] That was the first time the boundary was crossed, and he told me that he wanted to talk about it in person.

[254] And I agreed to because I thought maybe we could talk about it, and that would be that.

[255] Spencer continued his account of the story in his letter.

[256] She was very aggressive most of the time.

[257] I was sure it was something she was super familiar.

[258] with.

[259] In other words, I was never taking some leading role, if that makes sense.

[260] I know it was all my fault, no matter how she was.

[261] What I remember feeling most was really confused.

[262] It didn't feel right.

[263] You know, I expressed to him that I was a virgin and I don't know if I was ready for anything.

[264] I'm John Walzac, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona.

[265] Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world.

[266] We cloned his voice using AI.

[267] In 2001, police say I killed my family.

[268] First mom, then the kids.

[269] And rigged my house to explode.

[270] In a quiet suburb.

[271] This is the Beverly Hills of the valley.

[272] Before escaping into the wilderness.

[273] There was sleet and hail and snow coming down.

[274] They found my wife's SUV.

[275] Right on the reservation boundary.

[276] And my dog flew.

[277] All I could think of is going to sniper me out of some tree.

[278] But not me. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere.

[279] For two years, they won't tell you anything.

[280] I've traveled the nation.

[281] I'm going down in the cave.

[282] Tracking down clues.

[283] They were thinking that I picked him up and took him somewhere.

[284] If you keep asking me this, I'm going to call the police and have you removed.

[285] Searching for Robert Fisher.

[286] One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.

[287] Do you recognize my voice?

[288] Join an exploding house.

[289] The hunt.

[290] Family annihilation.

[291] Today.

[292] And a disappearing act.

[293] Listen to missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

[294] The podium is.

[295] back, with fresh angles and deep dives into Olympic and Paralympic stories you know, and those you'll be hard -pressed to forget.

[296] I did something in 88 that hasn't been beaten.

[297] Oh, gosh, the U .S. Olympic trials is the hardest and most competitive meat in the world.

[298] We are athletes for going out there, smashing into each other, full force.

[299] Listen to The Podium on the IHeart app or your favorite podcast platform weekly and every day during the games to hear the Olympics like you've never quite heard them before.

[300] In the summer of 2020, in the small mountain town of Idlewild, California, five women disappeared in the span of just a few months.

[301] Eventually, I found out what happened to the women, all except one.

[302] A woman named Lydia Abrams, known as Dia.

[303] Her friends and family ran through endless theories.

[304] Was she hurt hiking?

[305] Did she run away?

[306] Had she been kidnapped?

[307] I'm Lucy Sherrith.

[308] I've been reporting this story for four years and I've uncovered a tangled web of manipulation, estranged families and greed.

[309] Everyone, it seems, has a different version of events.

[310] Hear the story on Where's Deer, my new podcast from Pushkin Industries and IHeart Podcasts.

[311] Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[312] Spencer pushed for his court -appointed attorney to argue his account of the victim's complicity in the case.

[313] But his attorney wisely reminded Spencer that remorse was his best legal strategy.

[314] While reviewing all of the raw materials for the series, her team made a shocking discovery.

[315] In 2015, the same year that he started sending text messages to the sexual assault victim, Spencer made a hard play for at least one other student at California.

[316] High School.

[317] And yes, she was a teenager.

[318] Was she also the pursuer?

[319] Another girl making eyes at him?

[320] Here are some of the messages he sent to that student.

[321] As a warning, these messages may be hard to hear.

[322] You are so out of my league.

[323] Busy tonight?

[324] Come by the bar.

[325] You're the focus of all my erotica.

[326] What about hanging after school one day?

[327] We'd get away from this place.

[328] Well, since we both trust each other, I'm not worried.

[329] I think it'd be fun and totally cool.

[330] No issues, stress, or drama.

[331] And when he didn't get the result he wanted, he tried a different tactic.

[332] Her adulthood.

[333] You're incredibly pretty and mature.

[334] You are a woman, are you not?

[335] And this.

[336] Do you ever think about me in the flesh?

[337] The text Spencer sent the other student were wildly inappropriate and upsetting.

[338] And while we did not see evidence that a sexual assault occurred in these text exchanges, we did share this information with law enforcement.

[339] Everybody gets these kinds of dopamine heads if they're on Facebook or Instagram and they get a heart or a like.

[340] And these things start to train.

[341] the nervous system.

[342] Like, oh, I like that.

[343] We want more of those pleasure hormones running through our bodies.

[344] So every time he was texting, every time Spence was emailing and getting a response from these young women, it was releasing those endorphins and the dopamine and keeping him in the addiction cycle.

[345] Another detail that caught our attention was the way he described a fantasy to the student, what their first kiss would be like.

[346] I keep seeing this image of you and I hanging out, wherever, doesn't matter.

[347] But then at some point, you lean into me as I'm talking and simply kiss me. Almost like you couldn't wait any longer and couldn't wait for me to move towards you.

[348] It sounded eerily similar to the way he described the sexual assault victim in his letter to Jennifer.

[349] I was packing up to go and was in my office, and she surprised me. I think she said something like, what are you doing?

[350] Going home, I said.

[351] That's too bad, she responded.

[352] I was in shock and surprised by her closeness.

[353] Then I remember a kiss.

[354] It was so very consensual.

[355] His fantasy with the other student, the one he attempted to seduce, was the same as his account to Jennifer, of what happened with the sexual assault victim.

[356] A young girl simply found him irresistible.

[357] But the reality was quite different.

[358] The victim did not initiate the relationship.

[359] There was one last issue in the case with which Spencer took great umbrage.

[360] I would never, could never do anything to my accuser that would associate with the word assault.

[361] I will not leave court without the DA and judge knowing any different.

[362] Jen, I have never thought to force myself on anyone ever.

[363] I sure as hell wasn't going to do that with a student.

[364] Clearly, I was already sleeping around, so there was never a reason, none, for me to treat anyone like she claims I treated her.

[365] Here, he argues that with the number of partners, the availability of women he had, what reason would he have to be forceful?

[366] The victim must be lying.

[367] Then I thought about the words we heard earlier from Hope.

[368] Looking back, I remember a couple of times where, you know, he would kind of put his hands around my throat and push down.

[369] That kind of caught me off guard.

[370] Hearing that story from her, it's heart -wrenching.

[371] She talks about how he was forceful with her at times.

[372] But then in a letter, he said, to me, I would never, I just feel like in his brain, he really doesn't see the truth.

[373] Again, I haven't been able to do any kind of assessment or diagnosis, but I would say that having that control and being able to manipulate and coerce was part of what fed him.

[374] None of it is about love or kindness or connection or even the beauty of sex.

[375] It's about wounds and control and manipulation and trauma to everyone involved and avoidance of anything that feels like intimacy.

[376] It's been about two and a half years since I spoke with Spence.

[377] And I really am curious about whether or not he still feels the same way in those letters that he wrote to me. If that is all still the case, then that means very little healing has happened because those are the beginning stages of what someone needs to face in order to heal.

[378] And those things are all the things that also allow the addiction cycle to continue.

[379] We work with those cognitive distortions in therapy and coaching when we're trying to help sex addicts heal.

[380] All those things, rationalizing, minimizing.

[381] They help the person not have to look at themselves and take full accountability for what they've done.

[382] He has been manipulating himself and believing all of his own lives for so many years that he really can't.

[383] You can't see the difference probably between reality and things that he's making up.

[384] There's also this other part of him that feels like he needs to hold onto.

[385] That part that you needed to hold on to, Jen, when the police took him away.

[386] He needs to hold on to some part of that within himself.

[387] And even though he's done all of these things, the part that he's holding onto so he doesn't disintegrate.

[388] or totally fall apart is they were okay with it.

[389] It wasn't assault.

[390] Do you think there's any way that Spence has healed himself?

[391] From my vast clinical experience, it takes a lot of hard recovery work.

[392] Coaching and therapy groups, going through the 12 steps, making amends.

[393] It's a long journey.

[394] But one of the first steps is being in some kind of recovery group where it will start to break down the lies and the identity that you've been telling yourself all along.

[395] I do believe greatly in the power of healing and no, people cannot heal from this level of addiction.

[396] other compulsive behaviors without significant therapeutic help from specialists.

[397] Recovery and healing involves so much accountability, empathy, and compassion.

[398] If Spence was deeply remorseful, maybe he would come to you and say, you know, I'd like to pay you back for the tens of thousands of dollars that you needed for your coaching in their therapy.

[399] It's called making living a mess.

[400] I mean, you wouldn't accept it and that would be a drop in the bucket, but I'm just saying when someone is truly healing and in recovery, there is a very big part of them that deeply cares about the pain and the impact that they brought into other people's lives.

[401] And they do what they can to try the best to clean that up.

[402] I can only work on myself, which is what I have been doing now for the last few years.

[403] You've gone through one of the most traumatizing things I've ever heard of.

[404] And you did that deep work of learning how to heal yourself every day so that you can come out to the world and say, this happened.

[405] This is my story.

[406] It affected me. It affected other women.

[407] too.

[408] I'm helping to heal those other women by doing this.

[409] And it's been such an honor to support you and be a part of your healing.

[410] On the next episode of betrayal, Jennifer confronts Spencer.

[411] In one of the letters that you wrote me, you said that you never saw after it.

[412] Do you still feel that way?

[413] Well, yes.

[414] It's just an opportunity would present itself.

[415] And then before I knew it, I was pursuing it.

[416] I wasn't lucky you got away with it.

[417] I was unlucky that I was getting away with it.

[418] It'd been better for it to all gone to shit the first time.

[419] That's the truth.

[420] If you'd like to reach out to the betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail .com.

[421] That's Betrayal P -O -D at gmail .com.

[422] Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with I -Heart Podcasts.

[423] The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fascent, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Carrie Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman.

[424] Our I -Heart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crinechick.

[425] Special thanks to voice actor Todd Gans, sound editing and mixing done by Matt DeVecchio, the Trails theme was composed by Oliver Baines, music library provided by my music.

[426] And for more podcasts from IHeart, visit the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

[427] Some names have been changed to protect privacy.

[428] I'm John Walsack, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona.

[429] And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world.

[430] We cloned his voice using AI.

[431] In 2001, police say I killed my family and rigged my house to explode, before escaping into the wilderness.

[432] Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere.

[433] Join me. I'm going down in the cave.

[434] As I tracked down clues.

[435] I'm going to call the police and have you removed.

[436] Hunting.

[437] One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.

[438] Robert Fisher.

[439] Do you recognize my voice?

[440] Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

[441] The podium is back with fresh angles and deep dives into Olympic and Paralympic stories you know, and those you'll be hard pressed to forget.

[442] I did something in 88 that hasn't been beaten.

[443] Gosh, the U .S. Olympic trials is the hardest and most competitive meat in the world.

[444] We are athletes who are going out there, smashing into each other, full force.

[445] Listen to The Podium on the iHeart app or your favorite podcast platform weekly and every day during the games to hear the Olympics like you've never quite heard them before.

[446] In 2020, in a small California mountain town, five women disappeared.

[447] I found out what happened to all of them, except one, a woman known as Dia, whose estate is worth millions of dollars.

[448] I'm Lucy Sheriff.

[449] Over the past four years, I've spoken with Dia's family and friends.

[450] And I've discovered that everyone has a different version of events.

[451] Hear the story on Where's Deer.

[452] Listen on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.