S16 E6: Cons Gonna Con

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] Something Was Wrong is intended for mature audiences, as it discusses topics that can be upsetting, such as emotional, physical, and sexual violence.

[11] Content warnings for each episode and confidential and free resources for survivors can be found in the episode notes.

[12] Some survivor names have been changed for anonymity purposes.

[13] pseudonyms are given to minors in these stories for their privacy and protection.

[14] Testimony shared by guests on this show is their own and does not necessarily reflect the views of myself, Broken Cycle Media, or Wondry.

[15] The podcast or any linked materials should not be construed as medical advice, nor is the information a substitute for professional expertise or treatment.

[16] All persons are considered innocent and less proven guilty in a court of law.

[17] Thank you so much for listening.

[18] Here we go.

[19] I'll just read this.

[20] In August of 2007, Sheriff Hudson executed a search warrant at the store.

[21] Hudson seized hundreds of medical assistance supplies, many of which I moved over and over and over again and dusted.

[22] But he did not find any office records, files, or paperwork.

[23] Bob's desk drawers had been emptied.

[24] Hudson found, but did not seize, about 10 bags of coffee at the store.

[25] That was all he left, was.

[26] coffee beans, that he asked me to hand out to every single customer that came in, that he told me he had had in a storage unit for years.

[27] And I told him that that was disgusting and more or less mean to people to give them old coffee.

[28] But he swore it was fine.

[29] And yeah, I never gave the coffee to anybody because I thought it was disgusting.

[30] But even he, when he took all the files, He took all the paperwork out.

[31] He left the 10 shitty bags of coffee.

[32] Does it talk about him going on the run after the search?

[33] No, it does not.

[34] Do you remember that?

[35] He was hiding on the boat?

[36] I do remember that.

[37] Yeah, I know they had been fighting as normal.

[38] And then I remember she went to go visit him because he was on the boat.

[39] Hiding.

[40] And then he said something about them rekindling their romance.

[41] Oh, my fucking God, how dare you bring that up to me?

[42] How long was he on the run?

[43] It was like 30 days.

[44] He was definitely in hiding.

[45] And as anti -establishment as he was, he got off on that, I bet.

[46] His anti -social tendencies.

[47] The next phase after he went into custody, he did what a lot of people do, which is abuse the legal system and draw things out.

[48] make it as ridiculous as possible.

[49] Something I shared in season one was that he, as a delay tactic, one time even faked a heart attack to try and avoid whatever the next step was.

[50] And that really stands out to me because it speaks to what you're dealing with.

[51] Like, this person will try to deceive and do anything they can to try to manipulate people.

[52] I did speak to somebody who once represented Bob in court, and that person attested to that, said that at the end of the person, proceedings.

[53] They were definitely civil, but I don't know exactly what the situation was.

[54] But that person that said this to me said, the judge said to them afterwards, like, I'm sorry that you had a client like that.

[55] So, yeah.

[56] That's actually really validating when I hear that stuff.

[57] And that's why I laugh, because I'm like, yeah, I didn't imagine how difficult these people are.

[58] That speaks volumes.

[59] You think you know me. You don't know me well.

[60] I remember taking Tiffany up to the Placer County Jail and Auburn Visitor's Center.

[61] There's a lot of rules posted up on the outside, what you can wear.

[62] I think it said like no tank tops.

[63] It was a through a glass window type of meeting.

[64] It was not over a table environment.

[65] But yeah, I remember going in and it being very quiet.

[66] People were hanging out waiting to go visit and you get called in.

[67] I remember Tiffany being really nervous and unsure.

[68] I feel like she felt like she had to go visit, Bob, out of child obligate.

[69] in a sense.

[70] I think Liz had written him off at that point or just didn't want to deal, didn't have to deal with him, so was able to fully focus on herself.

[71] I think Tiffany felt like she was the last person who cared for him.

[72] He had reached out and asked if she could visit.

[73] So we went.

[74] I remember Tiffany not wanting to go in, but wanting to go in at the same time.

[75] I feel like it was maybe like a half hour at the most, maybe less.

[76] Then came out and I remember Tiffany just being upset.

[77] not like, yeah, it's so great to go see my dad, you know, who's in jail.

[78] It's also hard to see or accept the horrible things that somebody has done when the side that you've seen is nothing like that.

[79] What you're being told is, this is all lies.

[80] They're framing me. This is not my fault, which was his typical things to say.

[81] And even though it's somebody you have a complicated relationship with you still hope the best that they're not this shitty person and they're not what they're saying i honestly thought it had to do with him stealing tony's identity and racking up all the debt that he did i didn't even know about all the elder abuse and stuff until later until the news articles came out so i didn't know anything like i had already cut contact with him by the time i started to know all that stuff yeah because he always tried to make it seem like I'm not harming people.

[82] I'm harming businesses or the banks or justify it, you know.

[83] Yeah.

[84] Yeah, his way at work, I remember him telling me how easy it was to make a lot of money with how his business ran because you could purchase something for $300 and yet Medicare will pay $2 ,000 to you for this item.

[85] So your profit is like $1 ,700.

[86] That's not exactly what it was.

[87] But that's this kind of stuff he was telling me about.

[88] I think he would also, once he got cash from a new client, like a Ponzi scheme, he would use that money to purchase the actual thing the previous person was still waiting for.

[89] That seems to be how it kind of played out over time.

[90] How would you describe Bob and Liz's relationship?

[91] Honestly, I can't really think of a ton of times where they actually were like interacting, interacting, like having a conversation with each other.

[92] Well, besides when Liz would get annoyed or upset with Bob.

[93] That was most of the conversations I ever witnessed between them was them fighting or like watching a movie with them and they're sitting next to each other, but they're not talking during the movie or anything like that.

[94] Bob, when he would, he would talk to me about Liz, but he would just talk to me about her kind of like, she tries to work, but she's just tired or she'll just come in and take her nap, so I just not even have her come in the office anymore.

[95] She just can't work that hard because she's, you know, she's just a woman, my woman wife.

[96] She's just going to do whatever.

[97] When I do need her to pay a bill or file a bill, I could just call her and have her do that from home at this point.

[98] There wasn't a dynamic to their relationship to me, just fighting and trying to live next to each other.

[99] Do you have an opinion on whether or not Liz knew that this was happening, given that she worked in the business with him and shared a home with him?

[100] She knew what he did before.

[101] The only way for Liz to not know anything about this, is to purposely be ignorant of it by ignoring every single thing.

[102] She did paperwork for the companies.

[103] She saw what was happening.

[104] She may not have been there to hear what he told them, but when the police come around and ask about these things, and then when your husband goes to prison for these things, that has to set off alarm bells.

[105] But whatever Liz was getting out of the relationship, she was fine with.

[106] She was fine with all the crimes that he did because she was getting what she needed in a situation.

[107] When he doesn't have something to provide for her, she's done, right?

[108] My mom was very literate.

[109] She was an intelligent person.

[110] She was much smarter than Bob.

[111] Does it say what he was served or like the sentence or time or how many months or any of that?

[112] It does not include that in there.

[113] And to be clear, neither you or I knew any of this when you worked for him.

[114] Oh, no, not at all.

[115] When I've had a chance to go through and read the shit that he did, it makes me pretty sick to my stomach that I had anything to do with him.

[116] I'm Dan Tibersky.

[117] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[118] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[119] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[120] She's like, I can't.

[121] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[122] It's like doubling and tripling, and it's all these girls.

[123] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[124] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[125] Well, you were holding something back.

[126] Intentionally.

[127] Yeah, well, yeah.

[128] No, it's hysteria.

[129] It's all in your head.

[130] It's not physical.

[131] Oh, my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[132] Is this the largest mass hysteria since the Witches of Salem?

[133] Or is it something else entirely?

[134] Something's wrong here.

[135] Something's not right.

[136] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[137] A new limited series from Wondering, and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[138] Follow Hysterical on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[139] You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad -free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[140] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[141] I'm Sachi Cole.

[142] And I'm Sarah Hagey.

[143] And we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns.

[144] of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once the facade falls away.

[145] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit followed by Larry King, and no real product to push.

[146] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[147] To the infamous scams of real housewife stars like Teresa Judice, what should have proven to be a major down.

[148] only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[149] Follow scam influencers on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[150] You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad -free right now on Wondry Plus.

[151] When I learned more details about it, that it was fraud and financial abuse of the elderly through his business, I also remember feeling like, fuck, I worked for him for, I don't know, six months.

[152] while he was doing all these things.

[153] Like, am I going to be arrested?

[154] Am I going to be charged with these same things that he did, even though I literally had no idea what was going on?

[155] I just remember being very scared at that time, thinking I was going to get pulled into it.

[156] But con's going to con. And I learned later on that when he did pay me, he preferred to pay me in cash.

[157] But because he was such a businessman that he was going to to take the proper taxes out so he could pay them, which I realized was just his way of not paying me as much money because he never ever paid those taxes and never intended to pay those taxes.

[158] It was just his way of giving less money to me. So he never actually put me on any information for the business.

[159] I was never actually an employee.

[160] I was just a guy who hung out there apparently that he would give cash to sometimes.

[161] Okay.

[162] This is me being a poor employee.

[163] But maybe you'll understand.

[164] He had a bunch of pamphlets for his business.

[165] Do you know those pamphlets that you generally ignore by the pharmacy at doctor's offices, retirement homes, any of those places?

[166] He had pamphlets.

[167] So he would send me out like once a week to go refill the pamphlets.

[168] Now, I think in his mind, he thought that people are just ripping these things out of there and just going ham on all of his pamphlets when in reality, none of them were gone when I would go.

[169] But he would tell me not to come back until I've put all of them out.

[170] Here's a box, make sure that you get these out.

[171] That was his way of telling if I could do it or not.

[172] So I realized after the second time doing this, that it was completely pointless.

[173] So the third or fourth time he told me to go out, I just sat in my car and read a book and tossed the pamphlets in a dumpster.

[174] Because there's no fucking point.

[175] There was no point.

[176] He didn't really care anyway.

[177] I do remember doing some jobs for your dad, where I would go deliver a product.

[178] For example, I delivered a hospital bed to some people who lived like an hour out in the woods, basically.

[179] And your dad told me to go take this and install it.

[180] When I got there and started putting it together, the people who were there told me this is not what we were supposed to get.

[181] and your dad had told me beforehand like, hey, if they say anything about it not being the right bed, just let them know that it's on the right ones on order, and as soon as it comes in, I will bring it to them.

[182] So that's what I said to them.

[183] This was for their elderly relative, who was, I believe, coming home from the hospital the next week going into hospice care, and they needed the hospital bed for this relative.

[184] I remember taking the stuff out of the box to put the bed together.

[185] It definitely was not like a new bed, I don't know, or had been taken out, and there was pieces missing.

[186] I remember calling your dad and telling him that it was missing pieces, and he said, I'm going to get them a new bed as soon as possible, just make it work.

[187] At the time, I really, I didn't think anything other than he's going to make sure that they get this bed, the correct one.

[188] So I did.

[189] I fixed it as best as I could, so it was functional.

[190] I used pieces from other stuff I had in the van to fix it.

[191] It was definitely not what they paid for.

[192] And again, I was operating under the impression that your dad was going to fix it.

[193] Once I read what your dad was charged with, I realized that he never planned on doing any of that.

[194] And pretty much everything he told me revolving around the business was all lies.

[195] I felt really deceived that I had been brought into that sort of situation because I 100 % would never want to work for somebody like that, especially somebody who takes advantage of older people.

[196] Eventually, his trial started.

[197] I believed what he was saying to a certain extent.

[198] I also didn't know what to think.

[199] I also felt very sorry for this person because I loved this person in the way that I understood.

[200] I would visit him sometimes and he would make it as painful as possible.

[201] he wanted me to feel as sorry for him as possible and he would try to like manipulate me into you need to write me every day you need to come see me you need to put money on my books you need to be doing this you need to be doing that again like I'm his spouse or something and putting responsibility on me that shouldn't be there instead of like recognizing that I have just gone through so much trauma been subjected to this raid and being held at gunpoint and having this experience that was so traumatic that to this day when there's and knock at my door, it sends a uncomfortable physical reaction through my body.

[202] I was doing the best I could with the information and understanding I had at the time.

[203] I'd visit him and he would tell me these stories about how horrible the people were in there and how he shouldn't be in there.

[204] What I know about Liz's part in this is that she did participate with police or the investigators in some capacity because at some point, after the raid, my mom took her.

[205] me to a building in the Do It Center in Auburn to speak with someone that I believe was a criminologist psychologist.

[206] I don't know what their relationship was.

[207] I don't remember a lot of this time, but what I recall is the woman sitting behind a desk and my mom sitting to my right and me sitting in an awkward office small and this woman asking me, do you know what antisocial personality disorder means.

[208] And I said, no. And she starts listing all of the DSM qualifications for antisocial personality disorder.

[209] It's clearly they're speaking about Bob based off of the descriptors.

[210] She's like, Bob meets every qualifier on this list.

[211] And I was just like, okay, I had no idea what to do with that information.

[212] It never was presented to me like, oh, by the way, also antisocial personality disorder is the term that we've created in the DSM for a fucking psychopath or a sociopath.

[213] It's like a very fancy, nice way of saying that.

[214] But Liz was just sitting there basically like, do you hear that like he's the problem?

[215] That was very much her attitude always.

[216] Like, do you see?

[217] And it's just like, yeah, I know that he's fucked up and you're also fucked up and horrible.

[218] They were always trying to convince me that the other person was to blame.

[219] It's not black or white.

[220] It's you're both shitty, actually.

[221] She had to have cut some kind of deal or something.

[222] But I remember Liz talking about being worried.

[223] Also, you have to keep in mind that I was in and out of contact with my parents throughout every year since I turned 16.

[224] So there would be periods of time where things would happen and then I'd come back and be sort of filled in.

[225] And the information would be not thorough and during heavily traumatic times.

[226] So that's why a lot of these memories are like pieces that I'm still trying to kind of fit together in my own brain.

[227] What I recall is Liz saying that she was worried, but because she was able to convince them that Bob had done all of this and she had no idea and that she wasn't involved, that what was required of her was to pay back some money.

[228] I do know that she paid part of the money that they had racked up under Tony's name.

[229] She had paid some of it back.

[230] She acted like she did that as a favor to Tony.

[231] She acted like she was doing it out of the kindness of her heart to pay Tony, like pay off this debt.

[232] Do I believe that for a second?

[233] No. I think that she probably had to do it and that's part of her terms or whatever she agreed to.

[234] I have a hard time believing that she would give money to anyone out of the kindness of her heart in any capacity.

[235] I don't know exactly what took place, but I know that it had something to do with spousal, a certain term for it, where your spouse does something, but you don't know, and it's behind your back, essentially, is what they landed on.

[236] I think that they were very much focused on Bob.

[237] I did see her being interviewed the day of the raid, and obviously, like, whoever was working at that office that they brought me to was somehow related to the court system and the prosecution of Bob.

[238] So she clearly was talking to people.

[239] So I'm getting married.

[240] My dad's in prison.

[241] I'm not speaking to my mom.

[242] But sure, let's do this so that we don't go to hell.

[243] Liz had become homeless.

[244] This was during the time that her and I were not speaking.

[245] The house had finally been foreclosed on.

[246] She had tried to sell everything possible that was left in the house and use that money to try and get an apartment.

[247] But she had destroyed credit.

[248] She was only able to get an apartment for her and Bobby to live in because someone had helped her get this apartment.

[249] Right after Bob has gone to prison, she very quickly started dating a man named Everett.

[250] Everett was living out of his business, if you'll call it that.

[251] Within a month, he was living with Liz, and they were in a full on acting like they're going to get married relationship.

[252] It was very much forced onto Bobby.

[253] Bobby's living in this tiny apartment with Liz and now this guy that he has no idea who the fuck this guy is and this guy's like talking openly about how him and my mom are having sex like teenagers and how in love they are and Liz is trying to act like none of this other shit ever happened.

[254] She's acting like she's met the love of her life and everyone should just jump on board.

[255] Liz had met Everett through a 12 -step program and she had met a woman who I will call Karen.

[256] Karen became her sponsor.

[257] I wasn't speaking to Liz at this time.

[258] Michael and I ended up becoming engaged at very young age.

[259] There was a lot of religious pressure on us to not, quote, live in sin and to get married if we were going to live together.

[260] We both felt the pressure from outside sources to do that.

[261] So we became engaged at the very young age of 21.

[262] I want to say, 22 maybe.

[263] We were going to take engagement photos, and there's only certain days you can go to the jail and visit, and you have to make sure you're wearing the correct clothing and you're dressed modestly.

[264] There's so much that you have to know to be able to go see somebody in prison or jail, and you definitely have to come correct.

[265] I had gone to see him, and Liz was in there, and she refused to share her time with me. Her and I had stopped speaking at this point, and she didn't allow me in, and so that I remember crying and having to go and take our engagement photos afterwards.

[266] And that's the only reason I remember that.

[267] I had gone there, I think, to tell him that we had gotten engaged.

[268] But what I heard later was that that was the day that Liz went to completely cut ties with him and their relationship.

[269] Michael and I started slowly planning a very modest wedding.

[270] We got married at his parents' church.

[271] They let us use the facility for free.

[272] It was very do -it -yourself.

[273] And pre -Pintrist, we were very young and broke and did not have much financial support.

[274] We did have a friend of Michaels who went to culinary school with him, who was an older woman who was very, very kind and kind of took him under her wing while he was living away at school.

[275] And she had kids around our ages and she gave us $800 for the wedding.

[276] We were so, so thankful.

[277] It was such a generous gift, especially because this is now 2008 and the economy has just crashed due to the housing market.

[278] It's like, the whole world is seemingly shutting down.

[279] And a lot of my friend's parents are losing their houses.

[280] And a lot of people are struggling and really broke.

[281] And the economy is really bad.

[282] I think this is the most significant financial crisis in the post -war period.

[283] There are fears.

[284] The sell -off will continue on Wall Street.

[285] Soaring gas prices, falling home prices, and rising unemployment.

[286] It was a bloody year on Wall Street and a real capitulation.

[287] for a system run amok.

[288] Nearly a quarter of a million homeowners are in danger of losing their homes.

[289] The bankers made irresponsible loans to homeowners, permitted them to buy property on margin.

[290] Then the housing prices collapsed.

[291] The mortgages couldn't be paid.

[292] And the banks essentially became insolvent.

[293] So the perfect time to get married and invite people to something costly.

[294] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[295] She had been under the influence and she left him there.

[296] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[297] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[298] What happens next?

[299] Depends on who you ask.

[300] Was it a crime of passion?

[301] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[302] This was clearly an intentional act.

[303] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma, with hypothermia.

[304] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[305] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[306] Everyone had an opinion.

[307] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[308] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[309] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

[310] You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondry Plus.

[311] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

[312] Everett was very protective of Liz, which is very strange, considering the circumstances.

[313] But who knows what Liz had told him.

[314] Everything else I had heard about him was from Bobby.

[315] And Bobby could not fucking stand this guy and didn't want anything to do with him.

[316] And quite frankly, neither did I. But I was just like, I'm really glad that Liz is getting sober.

[317] Michael and I both were trying to be really supportive of that because we were hoping that sobriety would mean recovery for her in many ways.

[318] We were trying to be supportive from a distance.

[319] Liz contacted me and let me know that she had been sober for whatever amount of time.

[320] She had heard I'm getting married and she wanted to know if we could get together and discuss her making amends to me because she was working on.

[321] going through the steps.

[322] I agreed, and Michael and I went to this apartment.

[323] It was very awkward, and she asked me to go on an errand.

[324] The car was parked, and she says, I've been working on the steps, and I would like to make amends to what I've done to you.

[325] And this bitch pulls out an index card.

[326] And I'll never forget that, because in my mind I thought, where's the rest?

[327] I'm sorry, you think what you owe me an apology about can fit in three to four, maybe five sentences, ma 'am?

[328] I'll never forget that.

[329] That's one of the funniest things to me. It was like this comedic moment of somebody who literally should be pulling out a binder with tabs of all the ways that they have fucked you and she pulls out this tiny scrap of paper.

[330] But I was trying so hard to be empathetic towards her and encourage her because she was finally, it seemed like, humbled and had to actually provide for herself.

[331] And also, I really wanted to support her getting sober because that also benefited Bobby and Tony and other people I loved.

[332] I'm always going to be encouraging to somebody who's trying to better themselves.

[333] And I didn't have any boundaries then.

[334] So she pulls out this card.

[335] She's like, my sponsor helped me write this.

[336] I'm like, oh, okay, so you didn't even write this.

[337] Great, great, great, great, great.

[338] Loving this.

[339] And she's like, I'm very sorry for whatever I have done to you that has harmed you through my drinking.

[340] And I'm going to do my best to stay sober.

[341] It seemed like somebody who had poison in their mouth.

[342] Her giving an apology was like, it would have been better if she would have just handed me the card and I could have ran it myself, maybe.

[343] But I forgave her.

[344] I said, thank you.

[345] And I'm proud of you for getting sober.

[346] And I encourage you to continue to do that.

[347] I'm proud of you for working and providing a place for Bobby to live.

[348] I hope that you continue to do that because you should continue to take care of yourself and work on yourself.

[349] But then she couldn't take any sort of criticism either.

[350] So it's like you really could only praise her.

[351] She made an environment where that's all that was allowed.

[352] They had come over to an apartment and we were like playing a board game or something and trying to just be around each other and me get to know her boyfriend and them get to know Michael.

[353] somehow it came up something about child abuse and she had the audacity to sit there and say well thank God I never put my hands on you wow I literally just sat there with my mouth open she sat there and squirmed and it was just silence and Michael knew and Michael's sitting there like blink blink and Everett doesn't know because she's probably told him this lie or he doesn't know her well enough to know who the fuck she actually is because they started dating like the week my mom got sober, by the way.

[354] But anyways, so she says this and I feel shock because I'm just like, what fucking planet is this bitch on?

[355] I think I just was like, okay, we're done tonight.

[356] It's time to go.

[357] And then the next day she followed up and I told her, how dare you try to imply that you've never put your hands on me after everything that you have done?

[358] And she was just like, yeah, I guess that wasn't the truth or something.

[359] Even when she would omit something, it was just enough so that she could move on to whatever she wanted to talk about next, which was herself, always.

[360] I'd call her on the phone.

[361] We'd have a 5 .5 second conversation about me or my feelings or whatever I had going on in my life.

[362] And then the preceding 45 minutes would be her basically talking to me like I'm her therapist and me having to handhold her insecurity and her narcissism through whatever she was going through that day, which was usually something very trivial that she's making into a chaotic.

[363] dramatic scene that didn't need to exist in any capacity.

[364] I sadly was in a place where I was just willing to take her scraps.

[365] And for many years I took her scraps and thought that those scraps were this great thing.

[366] We had the game night and that's when she slowly started rewriting history to make herself absolved and acted like because Bob had done this worst thing that she's the victim and she had never done anything wrong.

[367] Bob is entirely to blame for everything.

[368] I witnessed how much pressure she put on Bob to make money at any cost, how little she gave a shit about other people, and how selfish she was.

[369] So I have a really hard time playing dumb with her when it came to this stuff.

[370] But for the most part, I tried to just bite my tongue.

[371] And I saw it as she's trying really hard.

[372] Maybe this is what she needs to try and justify this to herself right now.

[373] And maybe the longer she's sober, and trying to improve herself, perhaps this too can improve.

[374] I was willing to take scraps because compared to starvation, scraps was better.

[375] And her boyfriend and her sponsor enabled the fuck out of this rewriting of history behavior.

[376] They seem to be in some sort of competition of who could kiss my mom's ass more and enable her.

[377] And it was a very strange dynamic.

[378] And they also hated each other and fought over my mom, which was weird.

[379] it didn't help her grow to have people not telling her the truth.

[380] And they would act like they knew what had transpired in our family and talked to me like they knew what had happened when they weren't there.

[381] They had no idea what they were talking about.

[382] And they were getting their information through a lying narcissistic person who was very sick.

[383] I remember one time her sponsor said something along the lines of, well, your mom chose alcohol and you chose sugar.

[384] Like, I'm sorry, Because I'm curvy.

[385] Me, the child, we're comparing the...

[386] It was, first of all, so fatphobic and weird and also so unwarranted and strange to try to equate it.

[387] But it's like they were working on her behalf to try and get me to fall in line.

[388] My mom's sitting there and she's just loving this.

[389] I'm like, don't know how to navigate this because at this time I'm really like a people pleaser and I'm struggling with boundaries.

[390] And I'm so desperate for love and family that I'm, again, and willing to take these scraps.

[391] The sponsor also said to me in this conversation that she had no business having an opinion and she was talking with such authority like she did.

[392] But she said to me, look at how good of a person you are.

[393] So clearly like your mom did something right.

[394] Clearly you had some consistency in your life that made you this person.

[395] And I just remember looking at her and being like, I can't think of that person.

[396] I'm sorry.

[397] And that's so invalidating.

[398] So invalidating and so isolating.

[399] It was so rude.

[400] You have no idea what you're talking about and you're just enabling her and making her feel like even more entitled to this rewriting of history.

[401] But I was keeping my mouth shut about any harm that was done because my mom was sober and I felt like because she was so deeply, deeply insecure and because of her emotional and mental health limitations, I felt like I had to silence myself and pretend like everything was fine when it wasn't so that hopefully she could stay sober.

[402] And maybe that would lead to, again, it was the same behavior in childhood where it was like, maybe if I love her enough and I gas her up enough, if I give her enough good advice, if I listen to her enough, if I love her hard enough, like eventually she'll start to return this favor.

[403] As we were getting closer to the wedding, Bobby ended up going to rehab, which we were so fucking happy that he was getting some help it's an added stress and worry the anxiety of that is just so heavy to work through coupled with the hope and joy that this person that you love and care about is getting the help that they need we knew of course it meant that he was going to miss the wedding but seriously who fucking cares just so happy that is getting some help.

[404] There are people like my mom, they only surround themselves with people who tell them what they want to hear.

[405] That's why her circle's always been so small.

[406] Maybe they were willing to take her scraps too.

[407] I don't know what their relationship was like, but they were very close.

[408] It just seemed very strange and codependent for lack of a better description, both with her boyfriend and this sponsor.

[409] Because I especially was very religious at this time.

[410] I wanted to get married at a church with a pastor.

[411] I wasn't really part of a church at this point.

[412] I had just moved back from San Francisco, and I moved in with Tiffany instead of moving back to my house.

[413] That definitely made it a lot harder to find a pastor to marry us.

[414] One of our friends was like, oh, yeah, my pastor will marry you guys.

[415] So we were like, oh, he knows you.

[416] We thought it was going to be cool.

[417] Set a meeting.

[418] We told that we were living together and that was, you know, the end of that.

[419] Jesus would definitely not want you to do that to bless our sinful lives.

[420] I talked to my dad.

[421] He set up a meeting with his pastor and he was so nice and genuine.

[422] Didn't give a shit that we were already living together before we got married.

[423] Liz had become sober and had found a new community I'm the type of person who really believes that one day of sobriety is something to celebrate, you know, and so I see that, and I'm going to celebrate that.

[424] And it seemed like she was making a step in the right direction.

[425] Some of these friends started hanging out a lot more personally with her, Karen and Everett.

[426] Now, Karen was a very interesting woman.

[427] She was way ahead of the times, though, with crystals and shit.

[428] Like, she had that shit in the bag.

[429] I remember she gave me a crystal to put in my pocket to help ward away my cell phone demons or whatever it was that was coming out of it at the time.

[430] One time, Karen was at the grocery store, as she told it, she was walking into the grocery store, and as the automatic doors opened up, she saw her.

[431] enemy at the time, a woman who had somehow hurt her son in some way, maybe something to do with his job, and Karen was not going to fucking have it.

[432] So she, in what I can only describe as a street fighter hadukin, she threw her hands forward and screamed at the woman in broad daylight in public, a mother's curse.

[433] And I have used that curse so many times since then in my life.

[434] Never with such vigor as Karen, but I use it still the same.

[435] Karen was hanging out with Liz a lot.

[436] And Everett also was hanging out with Liz a lot at this point.

[437] When I first met him, he came off as extremely nice.

[438] He had the nicest pair of sweatpants and a drag racing shirt I've ever seen in my life.

[439] And he was what I now recognize today as I need a place to stay nice.

[440] And that is and can be extremely nice.

[441] He very quickly became Liz's boyfriend and moved in, which was, was pretty fucking weird, considering Bob had pretty much just got sent to prison not that long before and definitely would not be able to make the wedding, obviously.

[442] Karen and Everett, they were also helpful people and tried to help keep Liz sober, but also tried to get her to be nice.

[443] Liz would try to do nice things.

[444] And I don't know if you've ever seen somebody like say something, do something, and it's kind of like they're gritting their teeth the whole time.

[445] That's what it felt like a lot of the time.

[446] I think that she definitely wanted us to be good because if we weren't, what does that say about her and what does that say to other people if her children aren't willing to be in contact with her or that she's not invited to her only daughter's wedding.

[447] She had called and she said, I would like to pay for my wedding dress, even from a non -expensive place.

[448] It was going to be probably around $500.

[449] I felt like, oh, wow, she's actually, like, making a attempt, and she had asked if she could go with me. Big mistake.

[450] But I was moved by the offer.

[451] She's sober.

[452] This is the new list.

[453] Let's go.

[454] She's buying me my dress.

[455] We go, and I tried on the dress that I wanted, and she told me it looked like shit on me and that I was too fat for it and that my arms weren't toned enough.

[456] And because she was paying for it, I also felt like I didn't have as much say.

[457] I was triggered as fuck.

[458] This is supposed to be this happy thing.

[459] And you're supposed to feel so beautiful.

[460] And she convinces me to get a dress I didn't want to get and insisted that I wear this belt that was black so that it would like cinch in my waist and just like making so many comments about my body.

[461] And it's just like, okay, so nothing has changed.

[462] Good to know.

[463] I forever regretted that I let her talk me out of the dress that I wanted and that she made me feel like I wasn't deserving of having the dress I wanted because of the type of body I had or that my body wasn't worthy of a garment on the day that I'm supposed to feel the most beautiful and the most celebrated.

[464] There was still so much that felt painful that I ignored.

[465] So she, of course, made everything about her throughout, and then the day of the wedding comes.

[466] Our wedding was the most low -budget wedding of all of our friends.

[467] but people will say that they had the most fun.

[468] Because we did.

[469] We had so much fun.

[470] Our friends were going to have fun no matter what.

[471] And that speaks to the amazing chosen family that we have and the kind people that we had show up for us that day.

[472] We had cases of wine donated from relatives for the wedding.

[473] And really, people helped out.

[474] Instead of a DJ, I think we had an iPod playlist through our friend's PA system.

[475] At one point, I was outside talking.

[476] to a friend and my dad came out and he looked worried and stressed out and that's like dad are you okay and he's like yeah one of your friends is in there dancing really inappropriately with your new wife i chuckled i remember laughing then and going to check anyway even though i already knew what i was going to see because i could hear that e40 was playing and that was you know our jam.

[477] So I opened the door and it was just dirty and Tiffany having the best dancing time you've ever seen in your life.

[478] And I just turned around and I said, dad, that's just how they dance.

[479] And he just rolled his eyes and walked away.

[480] What do you remember about Michael and Tiffany's wedding day?

[481] Oh, man. Okay.

[482] So, man, man, I regret.

[483] this one.

[484] We had some paint pens to write congratulations and just married, you know, and for some stupid reason, I thought it would be funny to draw these huge erections all over their car.

[485] Then all of a sudden, these other people start joining in, these adults are like, what is this kid doing?

[486] Are you for real?

[487] I was immediately ashamed.

[488] I'm like, what am I, you know, I might have been kind of drunk, but it was dumb, kind of stupid.

[489] Yeah, not my finest moment, but good times.

[490] Wedding was awesome.

[491] Michael and Tiffany made us a CD of all the groomsmen's and bridesmaids' favorite songs.

[492] And mine was throwdown forever.

[493] Great song.

[494] But wedding was amazing and it was a great time.

[495] I didn't really engage a lot with Tiffany's mom or stepdad.

[496] I really only saw them on a few occasions.

[497] social gatherings, birthdays or whatever, but didn't have any deep conversations ever.

[498] Tiffany's mom was nice to me. She seemed like she was kind of uptight.

[499] I didn't really have much interest in really engaging.

[500] Tony ended up walking me down the aisle.

[501] I'll never forget.

[502] It was actually so sweet.

[503] He turned to me, I'm about to walk down the aisle, and he said, Are you ready?

[504] Today's about you.

[505] and I started sobbing.

[506] So in any of the photos we actually had of me walking down the aisle, I look like I am like marching to my funeral or something.

[507] I do not look happy, but I was so moved by that because it was honestly one of the few times I could ever remember him being so sincere and kind to me. And I was so excited to marry Michael and to celebrate with our friends.

[508] There's definitely many happy memories amongst that day.

[509] But something I remember about the reception is that because my dad wasn't going to be there to give a toast, we had decided or they had decided that the moms were going to give a toast.

[510] Michael's dad prayed over the food, and then Michael's mom gave a congratulations toast, you know, welcome to the family.

[511] And my mom was supposed to essentially stand up on my behalf, right?

[512] They call her up to the microphone to come give the speech.

[513] And instead of going up there to celebrate her daughter, she makes the moment entire.

[514] about her and refuses to go up and make the speech and leaves.

[515] So that was a little bit strange and felt like shit.

[516] Like live performatively in front of people.

[517] Literally in front of like 100 people, all of my friends and family.

[518] Afterwards, she's outside smoking cigarettes, crying and her sponsor and Everettor surrounding her.

[519] It's just so, I'm like, what the fuck?

[520] Is this not my wedding?

[521] Am I not the person getting married today?

[522] Just checking.

[523] Okay.

[524] Okay.

[525] I I'm still trying to be nice to her.

[526] And I'm just like, what's going on?

[527] And she's like, I couldn't do it.

[528] I just couldn't do it.

[529] That was the explanation.

[530] What does that even mean?

[531] That's really symbolic of how our relationship was throughout the years.

[532] When I was interviewing one of my friends, Jamie, when I asked her what her impressions of my mom were when she interacted with her, she said, she never seemed happy for you.

[533] Like she seemed threatened by you being celebrated and it not being about her.

[534] and she never seemed happy for you.

[535] And this is somebody I've known for like 15 years.

[536] And to have that validation in that moment, it's very life -changing, honestly.

[537] When she shared what she thought, it was so, so validating to me. And it's like, yeah, that's how it felt.

[538] Our relationship was always challenged.

[539] The only reason that we got along as well as we did during these years is because I was lying to myself.

[540] I was letting her continue to abuse me in different ways or continue to center her and not be there for me, I prioritized her sobriety.

[541] Living with a narcissistic parent, you learn very, very early age that this person isn't open to any sort of criticism or feedback, and they really don't care about your feelings.

[542] And even when you try to share your feelings with them, they will make you feel stupid or, like, you've harmed them.

[543] And then trying to, again, encourage her into being, like, what I wanted her to then be for my kids.

[544] About six months after we got married, we found out that Tiffany was pregnant and we were going to be parents, which looking back now feels like the most insane fucking thing to do at a young age.

[545] I remember just being, terrified.

[546] Not of knowing what to do with a baby.

[547] I was not confident in being able to provide in general, considering I was working two jobs for not a lot of money.

[548] Also really exciting.

[549] Always wanted to be a dad.

[550] Super happy about that.

[551] I remember telling my parents and my dad said, already?

[552] Which funny and also like, yeah, we're not lying.

[553] We were very, very broke.

[554] We could barely take care of ourselves.

[555] I had wrapped up school.

[556] Michael had graduated school.

[557] We were both working multiple jobs.

[558] I was working for a nonprofit organization and I love that job.

[559] I quickly got promoted and ended up running support groups for individuals living with chronic pain throughout the United States.

[560] I would work on behalf of the nonprofit.

[561] to counsel and emotionally support people who are living with chronic pain conditions.

[562] It was a very big job for how young I was, and people constantly remarked on that and that they thought it was very impressive, my emotional capacity and my capacity for empathy, especially given my age.

[563] I really, really loved that job.

[564] It really opened my eyes to how beneficial support groups were and how listening peer to peer to and from people who have shared lived experiences with you can really benefit you.

[565] When I got pregnant with Jude, I was very excited, though I was sick and I told my employer at the time, and she threw a fit.

[566] And within a week, she fired me because she was mad that I was going to be pregnant when we were supposed to be having a corporate retreat that I was supposed to be running.

[567] Now I'm pregnant and jobless.

[568] I have no medical insurance.

[569] Michael is working two jobs.

[570] We can barely pay rent and afford to eat.

[571] I was thankfully able to get another job working in cosmetics after I had stopped barfing.

[572] This was before covered California, before President Obama passed the legislation that changed the way we get access to medical care.

[573] So my only option that I had was to go to Planned Parenthood.

[574] I am very appreciative that I was able to be provided services because I genuinely wouldn't have had anywhere to go.

[575] All I experienced was them being super supportive and providing me accurate medical care and being really fantastic.

[576] I had somebody on an Instagram Q &A once asked me what were the best days of my life and I said the days my kids were born because they absolutely were the best days of my life.

[577] Hands down, no competition.

[578] The first moment I saw Jude was like, I can't even describe the amount of love that I had and the out -of -body experience I had.

[579] receiving that joy.

[580] I was like 10, 11 days overdue, and he was not coming out, and they took us to the hospital, and they were going to induce us.

[581] I'm bringing this up because I want to discuss Liz's behavior through this.

[582] I go in, extremely uncomfortable, first pregnancy, very young, have no idea what's happening.

[583] I have the veins that roll and collapse.

[584] I'm like, so overdue, so uncomfortable.

[585] This nurse, they got to put an IV in to put the potosin and the drugs that they needed to put in my system to try to induce labor.

[586] And they could not get the IV in.

[587] They're like, you have tattoos.

[588] You're fine.

[589] Another head nurse, she came in and she's like, you guys poked her how many times?

[590] And she seemed pissed that they had attempted this many times.

[591] And she was like, you're only supposed to attempt whatever the amount of times was.

[592] They're supposed to call the anesthesiologist, is what she said.

[593] So they get the anesthesiologist.

[594] He even needs several attempts.

[595] They eventually get it in my hand.

[596] But what I recall about this is them trying to get the IV in took like an hour at least.

[597] Liz arrives at the hospital and she comes in and she's there for maybe the last two minutes of this entire thing that I'm going through.

[598] She comes in and they finally get it in and she's like, oh, thank God.

[599] That was torture.

[600] I will never forget the nurse made the biggest side eye made it at me first.

[601] Like, this is your mom.

[602] Looks over at her and just gives her the biggest side eye and then looks back at me and she's like, how are you doing?

[603] I was like, hell yeah, favorite nurse of all time.

[604] She only needed to encounter that one specific situation to see the behavior for what it was.

[605] And that was so validating in the moment.

[606] Because I'm like, yeah, you see what I'm dealing with here?

[607] And then she very quickly was like, okay, mom, why don't you go out to the waiting room?

[608] Got rid of her for me. And nurses are some of the most undervalued, highly valuable people in our society.

[609] I found my nurses to be even more of a comfort to me than the people who delivered my children.

[610] I end up having an emergency C -section after several days of them trying to induce labor and having contractions in it going nowhere.

[611] I really didn't want that outcome, but I also was so over being pregnant and it didn't seem like my body was doing what it was supposed to be doing.

[612] You were in labor for days.

[613] Yeah, multiple.

[614] days.

[615] That's insane.

[616] Yeah.

[617] We go in.

[618] We have Jude.

[619] Amazing, magic, beautiful, joy, pure joy.

[620] I have a C -section, so I can't hold him or anything.

[621] Why he was stuck is that his cord was around his neck twice and he was jammed.

[622] So they not only had to deliver him via C -section, but they actually had to vacuum him out of me because he was so stuck.

[623] And there was a lot of rocking me on the table, like back and forth to get him out.

[624] So by the time he came out, we were all just so happy that he was here and he was okay.

[625] He looked, tore up from the floor up, but he was here safely.

[626] So I'm incapacitated because I'm on morphine and I've been up for however many days.

[627] They take me into the mom recovery room.

[628] Before this, Michael brings Jude over.

[629] I'm able to kiss him.

[630] We take photos.

[631] We have a little bit of time together.

[632] They are worried about me and how I'm responding and different things.

[633] So they take me into another room.

[634] And Michael is allowed to take Jude to the hallway to show the family.

[635] He's the first person to hold Jude.

[636] I was supposed to be the next person to hold him.

[637] And Michael was just going out to the hallway to, like, show them really quick, literally while walking through the hallway to take him to the room where I was.

[638] But Liz goes right up to Michael and basically scoops Jude out of his hands and takes pictures and they have this whole thing.

[639] Michael is so uncomfortable.

[640] And I was in the room waiting for him to come.

[641] And I haven't held my baby yet, okay?

[642] Time is going by, and I'm like, this was supposed to be like a very quick come -to -the -room situation.

[643] And so I start crying, and I'm begging the nurse, can I have my baby now?

[644] Like, I want my baby.

[645] And so the nurse went out to the hallway and essentially interceded and was like, okay, grandma, you need to give the baby back to dad.

[646] Mom hasn't got to hold the baby yet.

[647] Finally, they come in, I get to hold Jude, and it's just like, how do you summarize?

[648] Motherhood and parenthood is different for everyone, but for me, I've always, always known I wanted to be a parent, and my children are the absolute joy of my life.

[649] I consider it an absolute honor that I was blessed with the opportunity to be their parent, and I know Michael feels the same way, and I couldn't wait to start the next chapter.

[650] That's next time on something was wrong.

[651] When I found out my brother died, I couldn't even process that.

[652] I was out of my body.

[653] I was in so much guttural shock.

[654] That next morning, I saw a video of Rubin, and he was being interviewed by the news.

[655] So next thing I know, here comes squad cars from every direction.

[656] Came out with a gun's drawn, came up to him, picked him up, and shot him point blank.

[657] His partner came, and he said, hey, partner, you did a good job.

[658] Good job, partner.

[659] Can you imagine that?

[660] Just somebody saying that after they murdered somebody?

[661] Thank you so much for listening.

[662] Until next time, stay safe, friends.

[663] Something Was Wrong is a broken cycle media production.

[664] Created and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese.

[665] If you'd like to support the show further, you can share episodes with your loved ones, leave a positive review, or follow Something Was Wrong on Instagram.

[666] At Something Was Wrong podcast.

[667] Our theme song was composed by Gladrags.

[668] Check out their, album, Wonder Under.

[669] Thank you so much.

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