384 - This One's for Steven

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Hello.

[2] And welcome to my favorite murder.

[3] That's Georgia Hard Stark.

[4] Hi, that's Karen Kilgariff.

[5] Hello.

[6] Hello.

[7] Yeah, we're just going to do this podcast for you real quick.

[8] And then just move on to other stuff.

[9] In and out.

[10] In and out.

[11] Right?

[12] Yeah.

[13] Just like have a chat.

[14] Yeah.

[15] Touch base.

[16] See what's up.

[17] Yeah.

[18] In today's busy world, we know that you guys don't want any bullshit.

[19] You barely have time for this one hour, 45 minute podcast.

[20] So let's get to it.

[21] I want to know how many people listen to this podcast at work on someone else's dime.

[22] Like, that to me is like the fucking rebellion of rebellions, you know, like a fuck you to the man. Also, I have a hard time listening to podcasts, which that's kind of how I spend my morning, like wiping down surfaces and whatever.

[23] And the idea that I would do that and a job seems insane.

[24] I would never, I would be saying what the people in my ear were saying out loud.

[25] Well, as an ex -receptionist who would just sit alone at a desk in front of a computer for hours at a time, and the only thing I ever had to say was hi or answer the phone, you can get away with it pretty easily.

[26] Okay.

[27] Yeah.

[28] I was just to say maybe not one of those law firms where it's like 30 lines ringing at one time and you're like, Simon and Simon and Schuster or whatever.

[29] Yeah.

[30] Yeah.

[31] Simon and Simon and Simon.

[32] That's my law firm.

[33] I don't know.

[34] I don't know which one yours is.

[35] I once at that job watched like seven seasons of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia at my desk.

[36] I told them I need a privacy screen because like I didn't want anyone singing mic.

[37] And it was really just so I could watch.

[38] It's always sunny in Philadelphia.

[39] Sweet.

[40] I got my friend Jeff Cosgrave.

[41] We used to work together.

[42] I got him a T -shirt one time that said it was a cartoon of a like a bear sitting at a bar.

[43] drinking, and underneath it said, I'm rocking on your dime, which made me laugh so hard.

[44] I don't know why I just thought that was, I don't know if that's like from a band or something, but I don't either, but please let us know if that's what your life is like.

[45] Kudos to you.

[46] Because we love it.

[47] Oh, can I give you an update that just came through on borderline defunct website, Twitter, but I still love the fact that people still communicate with me through there.

[48] Yeah.

[49] Even though the Nazis have infiltrated in the most.

[50] insane way.

[51] Like, you see such crazy shit on there now, but you also see things like this.

[52] A man named James Barrera, I believe, at Civil Jim B is his handle.

[53] He went into, and I know I've told you this story, my short stint at Sack State in college, there was a girl who walked around, she was legit, like, punk.

[54] And she had a T -shirt that said frat boys have no genitals on front of it.

[55] I told you that, right?

[56] No, I don't think I've heard that one before.

[57] So it was 1988.

[58] Oh, my God.

[59] The danger level of having this shirt on and walking around in the world.

[60] And Sacramento's conservative as fuck, right?

[61] Conservative and filled with frats and sororities.

[62] Like, that's what everyone was doing aside from this tiny handful of us who were absolutely not.

[63] And I just remember she was walking down the hall.

[64] She kind of had a mom.

[65] If Molly Ringwald had a really fucked up childhood kind of vibe.

[66] And she was wearing like that t -shirt and then like a super cool pleaded skirt and huge like creepers.

[67] And as she walked by, I was just like, no way.

[68] Like she's by herself.

[69] What are you doing?

[70] Like you're the coolest person of all time.

[71] Yeah.

[72] And so I'm sure I told that story on some podcast at some point.

[73] Yeah.

[74] It could have been this one.

[75] And I don't remember.

[76] It's been seven and a half years basically.

[77] There have been anecdotes by the thousands on this fucking thing, truly.

[78] All moderately interesting.

[79] So it's not like it's going to stick out in your mind that much.

[80] But this guy, James Barrera, tweets me and sends a picture of the shirt and says the shirt was a product of the network, like a title, capital T, capital N, the network at UC Irvine's Ciudad Dorm in 1985, artwork by me and Jim Khan, K -A -N.

[81] The Rad Sack State punk girl was most likely Annie J or Bonnie.

[82] I still have one.

[83] And then there's the picture of the fucking shirt.

[84] Oh, my God.

[85] The original indie artist somehow found this.

[86] Oh, because you know what it was?

[87] Nico Case said, I'm scared of frat boys on Twitter, and I wrote back basically saying there was a girl who wore this shirt, and it was amazing.

[88] And so he, I guess, found it three years later and was like, that was me. How fucking cool.

[89] And then he knew, like, it was one of these two girls, because that's like how few people own that.

[90] And then it's full circle.

[91] and the internet brings people together, that's wild.

[92] And it's very like, the thing to me is it's so confrontational, and that's that kind of thing like, yeah, if you have 10 ,000 like -minded people behind you on social media and you're going to be ballsy and say that, this girl was by herself in the middle of a state school, just being like, yeah, you want to fight me, I'll fight you.

[93] Where's she now running the country?

[94] Why isn't she running the country?

[95] She might be.

[96] What if it was Nancy Pelosi?

[97] Anyway, thanks James for sending that.

[98] You probably don't listen to this podcast.

[99] But if you hear about it, thank you.

[100] Because how inspiring to be like in the middle of Sacramento going, oh, there's really these super badass, like real people.

[101] Yeah, like anarchists.

[102] It's awesome.

[103] Speaking of the opposite of real people, have you watched the Duggered family fucking documentary?

[104] No, I'm scared.

[105] Should I watch it?

[106] You, it's scary.

[107] It's called shiny happy people, and it's on Amazon Prime.

[108] It's like four episodes, Vince and I binged it.

[109] And just like the amount of times we said, holy shit, or what the fuck is just like countless.

[110] Yeah.

[111] I mean, it's dark.

[112] It's fucked up.

[113] And like, you know, fucking DLC just like throws this up.

[114] But it's like, it's not, it's propaganda.

[115] It's not fucking shiny happy people.

[116] It's like this dark religious overlord and the religious.

[117] and that they're trying to spread through America, like the religious right.

[118] You know what I mean?

[119] It's just...

[120] Yeah.

[121] I'm not being eloquent, but you know what I mean.

[122] No, no. Well, because the presentation is like, this is the American ideal of a family and an ethical family and this is how you live ethically and this is how you live, whatever.

[123] And it's like, that would be nice.

[124] If we could do it that way, wouldn't it be nice to be like, well, if you go to this church, then you are good.

[125] And if you go to this place, then you are bad.

[126] And it's like, that's...

[127] that's the kind of discovery with all this stuff, which is, if you're waving that flag of, like, me and Christ in it together, there's a reason people want it to be projecting that message, and it's because they're covering something up a lot of the time.

[128] Absolutely.

[129] Like the homeschooling that they did, these poor children got no education.

[130] There was, like, they tell you about the curriculum on this documentary.

[131] They tell you about, like, you know, the, like, weird things that the, that the young girls had to, the weird places they had to.

[132] to go with the leader and then they tell you about like the kids are all very like what's the word the kids are all very subdued and behave and behave themselves and it's like well here's how they did that there's actually like it's like teaching from when they're little babies to like how to behave it's fucked up it's fucked up abusive horrible stuff yeah i definitely recommend it watching well yeah i kind of all those things are feel very satisfying when they when they actually play out where it's like, yeah, we all watch that or we all were kind of forced to know about it.

[133] And knew something was off about it.

[134] Yes.

[135] Similar to Jared from Subway.

[136] Yeah.

[137] Oh, that was a good documentary, too.

[138] Did you watch that one?

[139] No. We watched that one.

[140] And it turns out there's this like woman who's like a journalist, like news presentation lady, you know, radio DJ and stuff.

[141] And she kind of is the one who took him down.

[142] Like I didn't know.

[143] that there was this one woman who started recording her fucking conversations with him and he just started telling her all this stuff and then the FBI got involved and they're like, you have to keep talk to him and like made her basically all the evidence they had against him is because of her.

[144] She's a badass.

[145] That's amazing.

[146] That's, yeah.

[147] Reason number 8 million why we cannot lose journalism.

[148] We can't this idea of disempowering journalists and getting rid of local newspapers, all these things that we're seeing happening, has to get reversed, because that's the only way this kind of stuff gets broken and learned about is, like, people who are doing that job and doing the hard stuff.

[149] It's so creepy.

[150] He's like, she has young kids, and he starts, like, talking about what he would do to them.

[151] And she has to, like, play along.

[152] Like, she's into it.

[153] They have the recordings on the documentary.

[154] It's fucking creepy.

[155] Now, and then in between these documentaries, you go find some glimmer time, you go find some, you go, you go take a deep breath outside.

[156] I have found one thing that I just bought, I haven't used it yet, but I've found the thing that's going to solve all my anxiety problems.

[157] Oh.

[158] I got myself a power washer.

[159] Holy shit.

[160] For like outdoors, like on your house and like your fucking walkway and shit, life's about to get better.

[161] You're about to, you know, you can, there's a guy that I follow on TikTok who volunteers to clean up people's front.

[162] guards.

[163] I've seen one of those before.

[164] It's amazing.

[165] When he power washes the driveway and you're like, I didn't realize that was dirty.

[166] Yeah.

[167] And then he goes, and suddenly it's this beautiful, everything looks beautiful.

[168] Yeah.

[169] There's a Reddit thread of power washing porn and it's just so satisfying.

[170] Except when people are doing it in sandals and their feet are just disgusting and you're like, why don't you put some tennis shoes on something?

[171] You're just like kicking up dirty water.

[172] Yeah.

[173] Although, then they can power wash their feet.

[174] Oh, hey.

[175] Hey.

[176] Let's look on the bright side.

[177] of power washing.

[178] Problem solution.

[179] Right there.

[180] Should we do exactly right, corner?

[181] I think we should.

[182] Okay.

[183] Okay, this week on I Said No Gifts, Bridger's guest is one of our very favorite comedians and friend of the network, Tignitaro.

[184] Yay.

[185] And Adelting with Michelle Boutot and Jordan Carlos is off for a summer break, but don't miss Michelle's new TV show.

[186] I'm so excited for this, Survival of the Thickest, which is available July 13th on Netflix.

[187] It looks so freaking good.

[188] and Lisa Trager is on the show as well.

[189] So it's like a double fucking exactly right header.

[190] I love that.

[191] Yeah, if you haven't seen Michelle Buto perform IRL, you absolutely should see it.

[192] This TV show is based on her book that she wrote, Survival of the Thickest, which is basically, you know, about her life.

[193] And she's one of the greatest.

[194] So, yeah, definitely support that TV show.

[195] Also, when you go to shop in the MFM merch store, which is something we know you do all the time, You're going to be getting free shipping on all orders that are over $75.

[196] We've got lots of new merch over there, including we have a new tote bag with artwork from Brainflower Designs.

[197] We launched it earlier this year as a T -shirt, and now there's a tote bag.

[198] Also, there's a fun bananas hat.

[199] There's muscle teas for that's messed up, and this podcast will kill you.

[200] It's like all your summer merch is happening.

[201] Yeah, what more do you want?

[202] Go to my favorite murder .com for all of it.

[203] Please.

[204] Woo.

[205] Phew.

[206] Okay.

[207] Whew.

[208] I'm first.

[209] I'm first.

[210] You're first.

[211] Okay.

[212] All right.

[213] We're going to go into some old -timey early 1900s.

[214] Right at the end of World War I, this is a story of a young British starlet.

[215] It's got English drug laws being changed.

[216] It's got a racist fallout from the trial of what happens.

[217] This is the overdose death of actress Billy Carlton.

[218] The main source of Lysentay story is an article from, flashback .com titled Disgraceful Orgies, Unholy Rights, and the death of Billy Carlton 100 years ago, written by Rob.

[219] Karen, you know I'm all about vintage shopping.

[220] Absolutely.

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[238] That's Shopify .com slash murder.

[239] Goodbye.

[240] Baker.

[241] Wow.

[242] And yeah.

[243] And all the other sources are listed in the show notes.

[244] Let's start from the very beginning.

[245] Billy Carlton is born Florence Lenora Stewart, which is such, Florence is such a good name.

[246] That should happen more.

[247] Florence Welch.

[248] Right.

[249] Florence in the Machine.

[250] Is that her last name?

[251] It's capital A in the Machine.

[252] Yeah.

[253] Love her.

[254] On September 4th, 1896, she's born in Bloomsbury.

[255] I'm sure it's pronounced London, England.

[256] She's the daughter of a chorus singer and her father is unknown and her mom is in the picture long anyways because she gets sent up to live with her aunt.

[257] So she's raised by her.

[258] At age 15, Billy drops out of school and takes the stage name Billy Carlton.

[259] Acting work is hard to come by it first, so Billy makes some extra cash by modeling for a 37 -year -old costume designer named Reggie DeVole.

[260] The two become fast friends, and Billy even moves in with Reggie and his wife, Pauline, another costume designer for some time as well as a 15 -year -old.

[261] I'm sure they were like, let's protect this poor baby.

[262] I hope so.

[263] Yeah, me too.

[264] In 19, 14 at age 18, Billy lands a spot on the chorus of Irving Berlin's Watcher Step, a musical production put on by theater manager and an impresario C .B. Cochran at the Empire Theater in Lester Square.

[265] Do you know that musical?

[266] You love musicals.

[267] I love musicals.

[268] Can you tell me the name of it again?

[269] Watch a step.

[270] Oh, watch a step.

[271] Tell me what you're looking for.

[272] Hey, everybody.

[273] Don't trip on that little, that rug over there.

[274] Put a cone there.

[275] Watch a step.

[276] Put the cone there.

[277] Okay.

[278] You have to watch your step and you have to put the cone down.

[279] That's a lot of responsibility.

[280] While you're dancing in a chorus line.

[281] Like, hard.

[282] Life was harder back then.

[283] Everyone knows that.

[284] Yeah, it was.

[285] Very challenging.

[286] The role is minor, but noting her charm and stage presence, Cochrane decides to promote now 19 -year -old Billy to one of his leads, Stella Sparks, in November 1915.

[287] So this is her, like, first big break.

[288] As Cochran puts it, quote, despite her inexperience and her tiny voice, she pleased the audiences.

[289] A more beautiful creature has never fluttered upon a stage.

[290] She seemed scarcely human.

[291] So fragile was she.

[292] Oh, wow.

[293] I've been described that way.

[294] Scarcely human.

[295] Delicate, my tiny voice, scarcely human.

[296] You know.

[297] Huge burps.

[298] Huge belches.

[299] It could shake the room.

[300] with a burp.

[301] Tiny voice, big belches.

[302] That's the key to showbiz.

[303] But there's just one problem, and that is, as so many, you know, 19 -year -olds, and any time period, Billy likes to use drugs.

[304] Sure.

[305] Specifically, cocaine and opium, which I think were pretty rampant back then.

[306] It's 1915, so opium's, like, pretty big.

[307] They were like, this is a vitamin.

[308] You should take this for if you're pregnant or planning to become pregnant.

[309] You could buy it over the counter.

[310] You should give it to your baby when he's colloquy.

[311] Yeah.

[312] Her habit starts up as early as the spring of summer of 1915 when she befriends a nightclub manager, always a red flag, by the name of Jack May. Excuse me. Jack.

[313] You should leave that one.

[314] I know.

[315] Just like for proof.

[316] Oh no. Okay, only that one.

[317] No, no. You don't have to.

[318] Leave it.

[319] Leave it.

[320] So this dude, Jack, he's an expat from America.

[321] his given name is Gerald Walter, he's taken over management of a family -owned pub on Beak Street called Murray's Cabaret Club, and the club, like many of the era, skirts the new alcohol rules of wartime and, of course, becomes a hotbed for illegal activity, you know?

[322] Yeah, yeah.

[323] Those club managers, nightclub managers.

[324] They want to give the people what they want.

[325] Drugs.

[326] You know.

[327] Drugs.

[328] Free drugs.

[329] Directs.

[330] So before World War I, pubs in London would open as early as 5 .30 a .m. and stay open until 12 .30 a .m. But basically, in 1914, just days into England's entering the war, the government starts to put like this crackdown on what time they can be open.

[331] Eventually, they can be open from like noon to almost three and then like 6 .30 to 9 .30 in the night.

[332] So like barely enough time to get fucked up.

[333] Yeah.

[334] And this is later referred to as the beauty sleep order.

[335] So this new law forbids customers from buying drinks for end.

[336] anyone but themselves, which is called the no -treating order.

[337] Or the cheap man's order.

[338] Yeah, exactly.

[339] Or the, how do I meet someone then order?

[340] Yeah.

[341] What am I going to have to make small talk order?

[342] Yeah.

[343] These laws are pushed through under the name the Defense of Realm Act, otherwise known as Dora, D -O -R -A.

[344] Of course, it's intended to secure public safety and national morale.

[345] But, of course, throughout the war, it gets more controversial.

[346] more things are added on to it, including strict censorship, and even goes to outlaw things like starting bonfires and buying binoculars.

[347] Guys.

[348] Just like, guys, just...

[349] Just come on.

[350] Let people get drunk.

[351] Stop with the over -the -counter opium.

[352] These laws don't actually stop anyone from drinking.

[353] Late into the night, just pushes everything underground.

[354] So bars and restaurants disguise their alcohol, serving booze in coffee mugs, and passing champagne off as lemonade.

[355] which is so charming.

[356] And at this time, many of London's men are off to war.

[357] So women are left to be more independent than what was previously socially acceptable.

[358] And they start to frequent these nightclubs on their own.

[359] They're called the Dining Out Girls by the Daily Mail, which would be a rad, all -female punk band name, wouldn't it?

[360] Hell, yes.

[361] So there's these young liberated women during wartime who go out and, God forbid, eat alone or with other girlfriends at night, as opposed to when they were, like, strictly escorted out by men, which was the norm.

[362] So they're having this taste of freedom.

[363] Yeah.

[364] And they're also known as flappers.

[365] You know, we all know about that.

[366] So these young women enjoy London's nightlife between 1915 and 1918, quickly finding that the nightclubs are serving up more illegal substances than just booze.

[367] The secret doesn't stand or wraps long.

[368] And in January 1916, the local news outlets reports on the seedy nature of what they call West End Bohemia.

[369] including women suffering from what they call a soul -racking cocaine habit.

[370] How pure was the cocaine back then?

[371] Like too pure.

[372] It would rack your soul, I bet.

[373] It's so pure.

[374] And you would just be wired out of your goal.

[375] I mean, it's such a, like, thinking about it, it's like, I like to think it's such this pure time or this simple time.

[376] And it's like, no, everyone was on tons of drugs.

[377] Yeah, it just wasn't illegal.

[378] Yeah.

[379] You got to get some baby aspirin cut in there.

[380] You're just like high as a kite.

[381] Take it easy.

[382] Don't do drugs.

[383] So eventually it leads to criminalizing the possession or sale of opium or cocaine by anyone besides a licensed chemist, a doctor, or a vet.

[384] Those fucking cats on cocaine back then, man. Screaming all night.

[385] What are you treating when you give your cat cocaine?

[386] Talking about opening a restaurant.

[387] The cat's meow.

[388] I liked it when this cat's left all day.

[389] Now it's real different.

[390] This cat has a, is trying to record an album constantly.

[391] Just smoking so many cigarettes, but they're like catnip cigarettes.

[392] Of course, it stops nobody from using it.

[393] Murray's Cabaret Club, in particular, becomes known as a place to easily get cocaine.

[394] And Billy Carlton is a frequent customer.

[395] By 1916, her cocaine usage is common knowledge in her work and social circles.

[396] So as word about her drug habits spreads, Cochran is the production and theater manager, and he basically fires her because he doesn't want, like, you know, her to give him a bad reputation.

[397] So she's fired from the show.

[398] And during this time, Billy is living with the couple who were clothing designers, occasionally modeling for them, picking up small theater gigs to get by.

[399] But in 1917, Cochran gives Billy another chance having her fill in for actress Gertie Miller as the leading lady in the musical Hoopla.

[400] Hoopla.

[401] Tell me what you're looking for.

[402] Hoopla.

[403] It's one of my favorites.

[404] What a way you got to do about it?

[405] Hoopla.

[406] Don't make a big old hoopla.

[407] Watch your step.

[408] That's the other song coming up.

[409] Don't make a hoopla when you trip over that step.

[410] Don't sue me. That's a hoopla.

[411] Watch your step.

[412] For Ormonds is unremarkable, sadly.

[413] And the show is the, It does lead to another job, though.

[414] An appearance in Andre Charlotte's show, some more, it's called Some More Samples.

[415] That can't be right.

[416] That has to be a misplice.

[417] It's like a salesman going door to door with like carpeting samples.

[418] I don't know.

[419] I don't want to keep making up dumb songs.

[420] Every time you do a title, it's kind of hacky after a while.

[421] But you just said some more samples is the show.

[422] And so, because of that, I only have two samples.

[423] I need some.

[424] How will I buy cocaine with only these two samples, door to door.

[425] Door to door.

[426] Oh, nice.

[427] Thank you.

[428] Okay, August 1917, she lands apart as a flapper.

[429] She'll even not tell you the names of these fucking...

[430] You can.

[431] I swear I won't say anymore.

[432] It's just called The Boy.

[433] That boy.

[434] No, I want you to.

[435] Which one?

[436] That one.

[437] That's the boy.

[438] Who's the boy?

[439] He's the boy.

[440] Okay.

[441] And then another one called fair and warmer.

[442] I don't know what these are.

[443] Your honor.

[444] I immediately set that one in a courtroom.

[445] There's a courtroom setting where if somebody falls in love.

[446] You know how they do in courtrooms all the time?

[447] They do.

[448] There's so much tension you're not supposed to.

[449] people you work with.

[450] So sexy.

[451] One of the oldest and most revered theater markets, the West End, she gets into a spot there, and she's the youngest leading lady in the West End at just 22 years old.

[452] Wow.

[453] Yeah, that's a big deal.

[454] Yeah.

[455] So she gets a little bit a bump in her pay raise, but not enough to afford where she ends up living, which is a new apartment at the Savoy Court Mansions, a luxury full service complex in London.

[456] It's high fucking end.

[457] Yeah.

[458] But she just doesn't have enough money to live there.

[459] But it turns out she does have a rich, older playboy friend named John Darlington Marsh from Bridgeton.

[460] You know him from Bridgeton.

[461] And it's kind of a common theme in her life, maintaining relationships with older wealthy men who give her large sums of money.

[462] She's a sugar baby.

[463] Yeah.

[464] Good for her.

[465] But even though she reached new heights in her young career, Billy has not given up her drug habit.

[466] Her friend the clothing designer, Reggie, also uses drugs, so he doesn't help.

[467] They end up having this, like, crazy opium dinner party.

[468] Oh, the idea.

[469] It's like, isn't, don't you just basically lay down and go to sleep or, like, seem like you're asleep?

[470] I think it's, like, heroin?

[471] I don't know.

[472] I'm just basing it on, like, opium den style things I've seen in Victorian, British stories.

[473] I think it's like that, but it's like in a private house.

[474] So this woman, a Scottish woman by the name of Ada Ping -U, comes over.

[475] She's basically the one who brings and preps the opium and passes it around.

[476] She's like the matriarch of the opium circle.

[477] Okay.

[478] They all, including Billy, hang out and do opium and they're there until like, you know, three in the afternoon the next day.

[479] Like that's how fucking potent the shit is.

[480] Yeah.

[481] And that's just kind of like what Billy's life was like at the time.

[482] And that's just the picture of it.

[483] I'm sure in some ways she thought it was like very almost glamorous and whatever, but it's just a bit empty.

[484] Absolutely.

[485] You're basically inviting people over and then going to sleep in front of them.

[486] Yeah, just to make it like the fact that you're addicted seem more glamorous and okay.

[487] And yeah, you're not alone doing it.

[488] At least there's other people doing it.

[489] It's a party.

[490] That's drugs.

[491] So then about a month later on November 11th, 1918, the last armistice is signed.

[492] And yay, hooray, World War I is officially.

[493] everyone's going to celebrate what they call the Great Victory Ball in the Royal Albert Hall to be held on November 27th, 1918.

[494] And actually, in addition to celebrating the end of the war, the ball is also intended to celebrate all the contributions and achievements made by women to support the war at country time, to support the country at wartime.

[495] Leave that in.

[496] At country time, I'm like, uh -huh, I can follow this.

[497] That's actually very cool, though, because as we all know, I'm sure World War...

[498] You never really hear about it in World War I, but World War II, it was like women just had to start doing everything.

[499] Totally, totally.

[500] Yeah.

[501] So that's pretty cool.

[502] Yeah.

[503] Way to go, the English.

[504] Yep.

[505] All the proceeds of the ball go to the nation's fund for nurses in honor of their care for the wounded soldiers.

[506] So hooray for that.

[507] Yeah.

[508] Great.

[509] But at its core, the victory ball is an opportunity for everyone to finally set their care.

[510] There's a side and feels some relief from the years of stress that they endured.

[511] And to party very fucking hard.

[512] Of course, it's right at Billy Carlton's alley.

[513] She gets this dress and there's a photo of it online.

[514] It's like a transparent, black, beautiful, like, you know, 1920s -looking dress.

[515] But it's like see -through.

[516] So it's super scandalous.

[517] She only, like, you can see right through it.

[518] It's reported, quote, that it revealed the flesh beneath to an extreme degree to the limit, in fact.

[519] To the limit.

[520] To the wall.

[521] Wait, truly, she was just kind of nude with a little material over the doll.

[522] Yeah, like you see on the red carpet these days, right?

[523] Where it's just like, I have black underwear on with like basically a sheath over me. Oh, okay.

[524] But it's like a beautiful dress, but it's just transparent.

[525] So it's like super scandalous and exciting.

[526] Yeah.

[527] So Billy goes, leaves the theater where she had a play that night, goes to dinner with another boyfriend, Dr. Frederick Stewart.

[528] And after dinner, along with her friends, Faye Compton and her friend's date, Lieutenant Barad, they hop in a cab, head to the ball.

[529] And there, Billy is just like an instant hit.

[530] Everyone's dazzled by her.

[531] She's like, the bell of the ball, you would say.

[532] And so she bumps into Reggie, and even though the event is dry, he snuck in some cocaine, he shares it with her.

[533] The ball ends at 3 a .m. And Billy and her date and her friend and her friend's date head home.

[534] Eventually she gets to her apartment with this other friend actor Lionel Belcher and his mistress, Olive Richardson, and they stay up all night.

[535] They eat.

[536] They order like room service because it's like a full service fucking apartment.

[537] I didn't know that was a thing, but wouldn't that be great?

[538] According to them later, all they did was just eat and talk all night, you know, and they left it around 6 a .m. And later, Lionel says he leaves Billy, quote, in bed perfectly, well and extremely bright.

[539] Hmm.

[540] So nothing amiss.

[541] Okay.

[542] According to him.

[543] It would be interesting that this is the first night where she's not doing major drugs.

[544] Right.

[545] Class A drugs.

[546] But suddenly she decided, like, in the middle of just being on a five -year cocaine binge, I'm just into food tonight.

[547] Right.

[548] I'm into food and going to bed tonight.

[549] Yeah.

[550] Who knows?

[551] That doesn't check out.

[552] The next morning at about 1130, it's November 28th, 1918.

[553] Billy's maid tries to, you know, open her door, but she hears loud snoring, so she allows Billy to sleep.

[554] And then around 3 .30, she goes back, knocks on the door, tries to wake Billy up.

[555] But Billy doesn't respond.

[556] And she finds Billy lying in bed on her side.

[557] And there's clothes scattered everywhere.

[558] Billy's face is pale.

[559] And there's a stain in the corner of her mouth.

[560] It's some kind of liquid, maybe bile or saliva.

[561] And she doesn't appear to be breathing.

[562] So Maid tries to wake her, but she can't.

[563] So she calls the doctor.

[564] And this Dr. Stewart rushes over, tries to resuscitate Billy, but he's unable to do so.

[565] To try to get her to resuscitate, he gives her a shot of brandy and strychnine, hoping to jolt her awake.

[566] That's, I guess, what they did back then.

[567] Yeah.

[568] But Billy has actually died in her sleep.

[569] Oh.

[570] So the police and medical examiner arrived to inspect her body, and they find that her pupils are dilated, and the skin beneath her left -hand fingernails is blue.

[571] and there's a sleeping drug called virunol, it's a barbiturate, that's on Billy's nightstand and that Dr. Stewart admits having removed before the police got there.

[572] But then a hotel manager's like, I'm pretty sure she had a bottle of pills there.

[573] And so he's like, oh, this one?

[574] Because he had prescribed it to her and didn't want them to know about it.

[575] Yeah, sure.

[576] But the medical examiner does rule her cause of death to be a cocaine overdose.

[577] Oh.

[578] So this becomes a high profile case.

[579] you know, huge in the news and they want someone to blame for her death.

[580] London officials use this as a chance to expose the underbelly of London's illicit drug scene and just be like, look how bad this is.

[581] This is why you should follow our rules, you know?

[582] Right.

[583] So they go overboard too.

[584] So over the course of five sessions at the Westminster Coroner Court on December 1918 through January 1919, coroner Sanural and Golby Odie questions every single friend, co -worker, family member, an acquaintance of billies that she came into contact with the months leading up to her ultimate death.

[585] And I think they're doing that to, like, exploit each and every one of those and make them, you know, embarrassed in the news.

[586] Right.

[587] Yeah.

[588] It generates so much buzz that spectators line up outside the courthouse as early as 7 a .m. to sit in on the sessions that don't begin until 2 .30.

[589] So when people are like, why are people into true crime now, you know, and it's like, well, it's not new.

[590] No. They were into it back then, too.

[591] Always.

[592] Yeah.

[593] There's all these questions about who gave her cocaine and eventually the people who had given it to her.

[594] So Reggie tells the court that he got the cocaine that he gave Billy from a man living in living on the Limehouse Causeway in Chinatown named Liu Ping Yu, who's the Chinese husband of Ada Ping Yu, the one who had done the opium party.

[595] And so the first charge in the inquest comes on December 20th, 1918 and is levied against Ada Ping Yu, the woman with the opium for possessing and supplying cocaine and opium to Billy, which is a crime under the Dora Act.

[596] And prosecutors refer to the party at the DeVoels as a disgraceful orgy and calls Ada the high priestess at these unholy rights.

[597] So they're just like fucking shaming everyone.

[598] I mean, logistically, probably couldn't be an orgy if everybody's on opium, right?

[599] Right.

[600] That doesn't sound very sexy.

[601] It sounds like maybe people could flop their arm over across your body at some point, but that's probably as sexy as it would get.

[602] I would guess.

[603] Definitely.

[604] She's found guilty and sentenced to five months of hard labor and she dies of tuberculosis shortly after serving her sentence in 1920.

[605] So totally tragic.

[606] Her husband, Lopinu, is also charged with possession of opium, but his only penalty He is a 10 -pound fine, and Reggie's charge was supplying cocaine to Billy and manslaughter for her death, but that gets dropped.

[607] And he gets an eight -month prison sentence.

[608] At the mention of this Chinese man, Lopin -U, during the inquest, the press fucking goes crazy with it, the racist press, unfairly generating fear and animosity toward London's Chinese population and blaming them for the influx of these illicit drugs.

[609] It's called the Yellow Peril Scare and it runs in full force for the next several years prompting racist stories, movies and books that target the Chinese people living on the Limehouse Causeway in Chinatown and they're painting this like harmless community as savage predators threatening the safety of London's white women.

[610] Yeah.

[611] You know, like they don't have any idea what opium's going to, cocaine's going to do for them.

[612] Unfortunately, the influence of these stories spreads internationally, and it's a lot of what we see in America, you know, it serves as fodder for racist movies, TV series, and more all the way through the 1970s.

[613] Yeah.

[614] So it's like a big part of that is this trial.

[615] Yeah.

[616] Another unfortunate consequence of the inquest is that it becomes more of a practice in digging up dirt on the witnesses than it does about bringing any sort of justice to Billy's death.

[617] Reggie gets the most criticism.

[618] Newspapers describe him as, quote, strange, sallow, very well -dressed, effeminate little man. And in court, he's just, like, harassed about his sexuality for some fucking reason.

[619] It has nothing to do with the trial.

[620] And it's revealed that he had years ago been hired as a, quote, gentleman secretary, which I think it was like the term that everyone knew meant, like, you're intimate, with this William Cronshaw who was actually just paying Reggie to have sex with him.

[621] So that comes out as well in the press.

[622] So, like, it basically fucks up his career as well.

[623] Right.

[624] In hindsight, considering, like, the full context of the night of Billy's death, it's more likely that she didn't die from a cocaine overdose, which was cocaine's a stimulant, but from the barbiturates on her nightstand.

[625] So all along, it had nothing to do with all these people.

[626] Huh.

[627] Author of Merrick Cohn argues in his book, Dope Girls, that there's a chance after a night of taking a lot of stimulants.

[628] She wanted a downer.

[629] It's like classic story to help her fall asleep.

[630] and the combination of those drugs in her system could have making her fall into a coma and then choked on her own vomit and dying that way, which is so tragic.

[631] Yeah.

[632] No matter the exact cause, Billy's death was a tragic one, cutting her life way too short.

[633] And that is the controversial overdose death of Billy Carlton.

[634] Wow.

[635] Never heard anything about any of that.

[636] But it is really interesting that idea when if you're taking up this cause under quote unquote morality.

[637] Yeah.

[638] Then basically anything that you present as being immoral gets to be included.

[639] Right.

[640] It has nothing to do with the case at all.

[641] And all these lives are ruined around you.

[642] And then you're just kind of like, did you, were you a gentleman secretary?

[643] And it's like, are we talking about this overdose death or what's happening?

[644] Totally, totally.

[645] Wow.

[646] Good job.

[647] Thank you.

[648] Please don't do drugs.

[649] kids.

[650] Yes, don't do drugs.

[651] That's why Georgia told you that story.

[652] Okay, so to follow up that story, I have my own that was suggested by at Elise underscore Pearson on Twitter.

[653] And they wrote to me and said, oh my God, please do the story of Leonardo Chenchuli.

[654] If you get a chance, I just heard the story and my mouth is on the floor and I'm not usually bothered by anything.

[655] L .O .L. Oh, no. Oh, hilarious, yes.

[656] Just to give you a tiny bit of background, and this is interesting because it's not, it's something I didn't know.

[657] This story takes place in Italy, my new hobby.

[658] And there's somebody, after the time I told you about going on vacation to Italy, and I was like, it's just amazing.

[659] Everything's great there.

[660] Somebody literally tweeted at me and was like, actually not everything's great.

[661] Oh, dear.

[662] And I normally when...

[663] Wait, what?

[664] They don't have political problems, they have political problems like everyone else?

[665] Sorry, are you saying that everything is not completely great in a country?

[666] Is your political statement that everything is fine in Italy, Karen?

[667] I must be completely misunderstanding the situation in Italy because I thought only good things happened there.

[668] I can't believe you lied to us, Karen.

[669] I'm going to change that now.

[670] And my apologies, because here's something absolutely hideous that happened in Italy.

[671] Great.

[672] Write your wrongs, Karen.

[673] Aside from the fascist take.

[674] over in the era of World War II, 1800s, and prior to that, it was a bunch of different kingdoms and states that all had their own distinctive identity and culture, which is very, if you watch like Stanley Tucci's searching for Italy, it's all like, if you go to Tuscany, they have a very specific kind of food and they're very proud of it where they're like, we're the steak and potatoes people.

[675] We, you know, we'll make you insanely delicious pasta, but first you're going to eat our stake and you're going to go insane.

[676] And like, it's all different areas.

[677] That's how that's identifying because they were these individual kingdoms back in the day.

[678] Like not that, not that many generations ago, really.

[679] Yeah.

[680] They first started unifying as the kingdom of Italy in the 1860s.

[681] So, oh, wow.

[682] Yeah.

[683] Kind of comparatively recently.

[684] Yeah.

[685] And then basically they became the Italian Republic that we know today.

[686] So in southern Italy, there's a very long -standing tradition of folk magic.

[687] Basically, a town or a village would have their own local seer or healer.

[688] Some people call them witches.

[689] And these people would prescribe oils or herbs or tell people to say certain prayers or give them specific hand gestures to ward off bad luck or promote good health or protect against curses.

[690] And that's super common.

[691] That was just kind of like part of the culture going along with the spread of Catholicism that was, of course, everywhere.

[692] And then as Italy modernizes, the visibility of folk magic lessons, but it does not go anywhere.

[693] And it basically becomes intertwined with Catholicism.

[694] So a folk magic expert named Dr. Angela Puka notes, quote, the old tradition of witches, they would not even call themselves witches.

[695] They would just be Catholics, good Catholics, that happened to cast the evil eye.

[696] Oh, shit.

[697] And quote.

[698] So that's just to kind of give you that sense of how much kind of the occult was practiced in Italy and especially, I guess, in southern Italy.

[699] That makes sense.

[700] Just know that as we go into me telling you the story of Italian serial killer, Leonardo Chenchuli, or the soap maker of Corrigio.

[701] Is he like one of the worst serial killers of all time?

[702] No, it's a woman.

[703] What?

[704] Okay, that's not what I thought it was.

[705] Yeah, Leonardo.

[706] Oh, my God.

[707] Leonardo.

[708] Oh, shit.

[709] Leonardo, yeah.

[710] Okay.

[711] Yeah.

[712] And the main source used in the story today is a book called the deadly soap maker of Corigio, the true story of Leonardo Chenchuli.

[713] And that was written by Geneviva Ortiz, and the rest of the sources are in our show notes.

[714] So in 1893, when Leonardo was born in the southern town of Montella, Italy, it's not a good situation.

[715] She doesn't have a happy childhood.

[716] her mother Amelia basically got pregnant as the result of a brutal rape.

[717] And when Amelia's parents find that out, they force her to marry her rapist.

[718] Oh, no. And it's the idea of like that's going to maintain your dignity.

[719] It's like as if that.

[720] So this young, beautiful, well -educated woman who's from a great family and who was expected to marry well, now basically has to live with a drunk abusive man who terrifies her and who terrifies her.

[721] arises her.

[722] Yeah.

[723] And so her promising future disappears before her eyes.

[724] Oh my God.

[725] Yeah.

[726] Yeah.

[727] Horrible situation.

[728] And it's not a surprise that when Amelia gives birth to her daughter, Leonardo, she's openly resentful, if not abusive, toward her own child.

[729] So a little later, when Leonardo's father, that biological father, rapist monster, dies from alcoholism.

[730] Amelia is able to remarry.

[731] But even though her domestic life is finally improving, at this point, it's too late to save her relationship with Leonardo.

[732] And that relationship gets worse after Leonardo, who is now a young woman, falls in love with an older man named Rafael Pansardi.

[733] He is a clerk in a local registry office, and he's very poor.

[734] The problem is Amelia had already pre -selected a husband for Leon Sari.

[735] So when she announces that she's going to marry Raphael, Amelia considers it a slap in her face.

[736] And basically, you know, this is a time where your daughter marrying like a richer man is your chance to approve your lot in life.

[737] Like women are just kind of used as chattel that way.

[738] Leonardo doesn't care.

[739] She is in love with Raphael.

[740] She marries him.

[741] and Amelia's anger turns to fury.

[742] So before their wedding, Amelia goes to Leonardo and says that she has placed a curse on the marriage, quote, for ruining her life a second time, end quote.

[743] Yikes.

[744] Pretty rough.

[745] So basically, and then after that, Leonardo never sees her mother again.

[746] Oh, wow.

[747] So like most of telling people at the time, Leonardo believes in the power of curses and spells, and she is incredibly shaken by her mother's threat.

[748] But aside from the fact that it's your own mother basically blaming you for her life, it's just so horrible.

[749] But then the mental manipulation of saying, I curse you as a mother to a child is horrifying.

[750] So it becomes an extreme and immediate source of anxiety for Leonardo.

[751] And she constantly worries about when and how this curse is going to play out in her life.

[752] So by the early 1920s, just a few years into her marriage, Leonardo's mental health, begins to deteriorate rapidly because of this constant threat hanging over her.

[753] So she comes up with a plan.

[754] She goes to visit the Romani fortune tellers who are traveling through her town at the time so that she can find out what this curse means for her future.

[755] And at this reading, the first thing that Leonardo asks is if her mother's curse means that she's going to die.

[756] And the fortune teller shakes her head and says, no, quote, you're not going to die for a long time.

[757] end quote but before Leonardo can breathe a sigh of relief the fortune teller adds uh oh mm -hmm leave it at that leave it at that but there's more no watch your step quote you're going to live a long life full of sadness and you're going to outlive every one of your children end quote cool thanks yeah so and you're like I paid how many lira for that Yeah.

[758] So this is horrible to hear because Leonardo, not getting very much love as a child, had always dreamed of having a big, happy family and a house full of children.

[759] So hearing this news leaves her completely distraught.

[760] She runs home to tell Raphael and he tries to reassure her, everything's going to be okay.

[761] But then when the couple tries to start having kids, Leonardo believes that her mother's curse is finally coming true because they're having trouble conceiving.

[762] and this belief only gets stronger after Leonardo finally becomes pregnant only to suffer a miscarriage a few months after she finds out.

[763] But then in 1922, Leonardo gets pregnant again, and this time she delivers a healthy baby boy.

[764] And the couple name him Giuseppe, and he brings them endless joy.

[765] But she and Raphael want to have more kids.

[766] Tragically, Leonardo's next pregnancy also ends in a miscarriage.

[767] Of course, she believes it's the curse.

[768] But then the couple has three healthy babies over the next few years, two girls and a boy.

[769] So now they have four children.

[770] Leonardo's over the moon about being a mother.

[771] She believes like it's her destiny.

[772] But the happiness doesn't last long because the three youngest children all under the age of three years old gets sick.

[773] And because Leonardo and Raphael are so poor, they can't afford to take them to the doctor.

[774] And they all end up dying of their illness.

[775] Oh, my God.

[776] Yeah.

[777] And over the next several years, Leonardo and Raphael have five more children, each of them die in infancy.

[778] Oh, you may. Yeah.

[779] Leonardo would later look back on this horrible chapter of her life and say, quote, almost every night, I dreamed of small white coffins.

[780] So just tragic, like horrible.

[781] Of course, this would be like the confirmation of her mother's curse.

[782] She can't help but believe that.

[783] Meanwhile, she clings to her son that is.

[784] alive and healthy, Giuseppe, and she's so worried that he's going to die next.

[785] So the Pansardi family, they're not just dealing with the trauma and grief of losing so many children, but they also are so broke like they can't keep food on the table.

[786] So Leonardo being worried about her son's health, making sure that he is provided for and that he doesn't get sick, Giuseppe, she goes out and gets a job.

[787] That's a tough thing to do as a woman in 1920s, Italy.

[788] She doesn't have a ton of options.

[789] but eventually she finds work cleaning a bank after hours.

[790] The only problem is she's supposed to bring her own cleaning supplies, and those aren't cheap.

[791] But fortunately, Leonardo knows how to make soap.

[792] And so after some trial and error, she figures out the perfect, like, recipe for the soap to get the job done, and she starts cleaning this bank.

[793] And so everything's smooth sailing for a little while.

[794] She's earning that money.

[795] She's adding to the household finances.

[796] In 1927, she lets temptation get the best of her.

[797] And during one of her overnight shifts at the bank, she decides to rummage around in the bank books.

[798] And it gives her this idea.

[799] So she sets up, in the bank books, she writes up a fake account for herself and adds in a bunch of cash, which maybe seem like a good idea in the moment, but she's caught the very next morning, arrested on fraud charges, brought to trial and sentenced to a year, in a Catholic reformatory.

[800] Oh, man. Yeah.

[801] It's reported that around the time of her conviction, she also loses another child.

[802] Aye.

[803] The specifics on that death aren't clear, but what we do know is this is the 10th child that the Pansardis have lost.

[804] Oh, my God.

[805] So just horrible.

[806] So about a year later, Leonardo's released from that reformatory, and now, of course, her reputation is in shambles, so the family decides to move to a small town about 50 miles away and get a fresh start.

[807] This is where Leonardo gives birth to three more children who will all survive.

[808] In addition to now Giuseppe, they have a daughter named Norma and two younger sons named Bernardo and Biagio.

[809] So even in Leonardo's happiest moments with this family that she does have, of course, her mother's curse is always clouding the back of her mind.

[810] She's been pregnant 17 times and only has four children.

[811] Holy shit.

[812] Yeah.

[813] It's easy to see why she would agonize over her children's health and safety.

[814] So basically, Leonardo around this time, decides to have her fortune read again because she wants to know what the future will hold for her children and how she might be able to basically get some sort of control over her mother's curse.

[815] So this time she goes to a palm reader.

[816] During their session, they share horrible news.

[817] And this time it's about Leonardo herself.

[818] The palm reader inspects Leonardo's hands, and she says, quote, in one hand, I can see a prison in the other an insane asylum, end quote.

[819] Cool.

[820] These really positive fortune tellers are just So you'd just be sitting there with a weird smile like, does anyone like me?

[821] Do you think that any fortune they read back then was positive?

[822] I bet they were all doom and gloom like this.

[823] I mean, the infant mortality rate was such that I feel like doom and gloom would just be the most realistic.

[824] If you were there being like, everything's going to be great, will be like, you're so full of shit.

[825] Like you don't know what you're talking about.

[826] Of course, this is a palm reading that totally rattles Leonardo.

[827] She becomes even more terrified about her future.

[828] And then, of course, in turn, she becomes more dependent on psychics and palm readers.

[829] So she starts going to see them anytime she can afford it.

[830] Basically, it becomes every week.

[831] And then she starts dabbling in folk magic herself.

[832] So she, in addition to reading every book on the occult that she can find, find, Leonardo takes lessons from Romani fortune tellers.

[833] For a while, it soothes her anxiety.

[834] But then in 1930, in Italy, there was a 6 .6 magnitude earthquake.

[835] Oh, shit.

[836] And it devastates the town that they live in, and it destroys everything that Leonardo and their family own, including their house.

[837] Oh, my God.

[838] Horrifying.

[839] Fortunately, everyone in the family is safe and lives through it, but Leonardo again is convinced this is the result.

[840] of her mother's curse.

[841] Yeah.

[842] That's really the power of a mother's words to her children.

[843] Yeah.

[844] That's a very good point where it's like, which mom do you want to be today?

[845] Right.

[846] You're the primary, like, person.

[847] Influence, yeah.

[848] Authority on, like, the world and how it works.

[849] Okay, so now the Pansardi family are refugees, and so they move to the northern town of Corigio, and their luck turns around.

[850] And Coridio is filled with sympathetic townspeople.

[851] They know that this family are refugees from this horrible earthquake.

[852] They welcome them with open arms.

[853] Almost immediately, Raphael and Leonardo both get decent paying jobs.

[854] And they're leased a big home that's attached to a shuttered storefront.

[855] And basically, the Pansardis start making more money than they've ever had before.

[856] Wow.

[857] But whatever progress Leonardo has made with her mental health becomes reversed by this trauma of losing her home.

[858] Because of that, the occult now becomes like a passion and very central in her life.

[859] Yeah.

[860] She basically uses this folk magic as a security blanket against this, what seems like, constant harm in her life and vulnerability.

[861] And basically, she just now throws herself into her own occult studies and decides to start putting her knowledge to use.

[862] So she cleans up that storefront that's attached to the house that they have.

[863] And out of that shop, she starts giving palm readings, selling charms and herbs, and even rare books that are on magic, which I'd kill it killed to be able to look at those.

[864] Can you imagine what those look like and smell like?

[865] In 1930, a rare book on magic?

[866] Yeah, a rare Italian book.

[867] Oh, come on.

[868] Okay.

[869] She also begins to offer matchmaking and career services.

[870] She's going for it.

[871] That's positive.

[872] I like that.

[873] I mean, that is, it's kind of fun.

[874] Yeah.

[875] And then she sells homemade soaps using that same recipe that she perfected before she tried to rob the bank.

[876] The new bit, this new business venture of hers winds up being a huge success.

[877] And before long, everyone in town wants to meet with Leonardo.

[878] She is, she is it.

[879] Her calendar becomes booked up with appointments, like things are going well.

[880] Hell yeah.

[881] So the Pansartis are finally able to live comfortably.

[882] and safely, but of course, what Leonardo's been through, she just is waiting for the other shoe to drop.

[883] She knows.

[884] You get comfortable, that's when the 6 .6 earthquake hits.

[885] Right.

[886] So convinced that something horrible could happen to her children at any moment, she tries to maintain control by being the world's first helicopter parent, and especially when it comes to Giuseppe, who is far and away, and I think probably very publicly, her favorite child.

[887] Right.

[888] man Leonardo needed a fucking pressure washer to get some of that anxiety out you know what I mean yep and maybe like two therapists like she could be going to two different times like you can get your palm red but then you have to go talk to that lady who actually can help you walk through what that really is about right yeah I love the idea of a pressure washer in 1930s Italy it's got a pump and you're just making your children pump it the whole time so author Jennifer Geneviva Ortiz writes that, quote, While other children were free to go out and play, Leonardo kept Giuseppe at home as much as she could, all but forbidding him to socialize with others.

[889] Yeah.

[890] So not great for the child.

[891] Now it's the late 30s.

[892] Giuseppe isn't a little boy anymore.

[893] He's grown into a young man, and he's coming of age in fascist Italy.

[894] He's been swept up in all the hypernationalist fervor that's going on around him, and he decides he wants to join Mussolini's army.

[895] Leonardo, of course, is horrified at the thought of her golden child being shipped off to war.

[896] She realizes she has no recourse because, like her, Giuseppe is going to do as he pleases.

[897] The more you try to control your children, the more they give you the double bird in Italian and walk away.

[898] She's kind of like faced without fact, but she cannot sit idly by while her son is shipped off to war.

[899] And so she turns to the occult.

[900] So Leonardo knows that protecting her favorite son's life is going to take much more than a spell or tonic.

[901] She needs magic that's stronger.

[902] And basically she's trying to ensure the safety of the person she loves more than life itself.

[903] And so we just have to say this right now.

[904] The path that Leonardo decides to take here is in no way representative of normal Italian folk magic, Romani folk magic, witchcraft.

[905] Like, yeah.

[906] She goes off the rails.

[907] in a serious way, Leonardo is convinced that to protect Giuseppe's life, she'll need to take a life as a sacrifice.

[908] When did she come to that conclusion?

[909] Man. Here's a thing.

[910] She seems to be the kind person that would get a quote unquote good idea and then go for it without ever checking with one other person.

[911] Like a vision.

[912] And then that's fact.

[913] I'll write my name into the bank book and then I'll have money.

[914] No, you won't.

[915] It takes one like one friend to go, Leonardo, no, that's, You're being insane.

[916] Don't do that.

[917] Nothing is that easy.

[918] Yeah.

[919] So basically part of why Leonardo gets this plan is because, remember, she was offering matchmaking services?

[920] Mm -hmm.

[921] Well, she has a client, and it is a woman named Faustina Setti, who is a 76 -year -old, unmarried, childless spinster, as they used to call us, back in the day.

[922] And Leonardo basically pities her.

[923] She's like, well, she doesn't have anything.

[924] She's the worst thing in the world, not married, the worst thing in the world.

[925] But she's still, like, wanting to hook up and shit and, like, matchmake?

[926] She's still looking for love at age 76.

[927] Oh, man. Gets what's especially kind of cruel and ironic is that Leonardo targets her because she knows that she knows how vulnerable she is, essentially.

[928] So the next time Faustina shows up to her appointment, Leonardo excitedly tells her that a man in Sardinia saw Faustina's picture and fell in love with her at first sight.

[929] This is so dark.

[930] We talk about horrible shit people do all the time and it's like, this is awful.

[931] Yeah.

[932] To tell someone someone is in love with you.

[933] Yeah.

[934] When you've been looking for it for probably fucking decades.

[935] Yeah.

[936] Your whole life.

[937] And someone's like, it's finally happening and you're like, no way.

[938] And you basically entirely put yourself in their hands.

[939] Oh, it's a nightmare.

[940] So basically, Leonardo says, okay, so now you need to write him a letter.

[941] Faustina happily writes him a letter.

[942] They exchange a few messages, and the man in Sardinia finally proposes marriage, and Faustina happily accepts.

[943] The thing I don't have to tell you, there is no man in Sardinia, and Leonardo is the one writing all the letters, horrifying.

[944] Yeah.

[945] Fastina trusts Leonardo.

[946] She has no idea what's going on.

[947] She is overjoyed of finally finding love.

[948] and absolutely wants to move to Sardinia to meet this man. It literally makes me stick to my stomach.

[949] It's so sad.

[950] It also just reminds me of something like an evil girl would do in junior high.

[951] Oh, so -and -so has a crush on you.

[952] So -and -so likes you.

[953] And then you go humiliate yourself in front of everyone because of it.

[954] Yes.

[955] God.

[956] It should totally be, it's like, yeah, there's all kinds of areas in the world that are like off -limits.

[957] This is the most off -limits thing.

[958] opinion that you could do what exactly get someone's hopes up around love okay horrifying yeah yeah it's a special fucked -upedness yeah yeah because you're because that's you're just kind of driving right down to the nerve inside of every human being which is to be seen and love right and accepted yeah none of this is written on the page I hope not I just hate this part so much But I have to keep talking about it.

[959] Okay, so before Faustina moves, Leonardo asks kind of an odd request of her.

[960] She says, look, people around town are going to talk about you because this happened so quickly.

[961] So what you need to do, like to kind of sidestep all that gossip, is you need to write some letters to people explaining that you're in Sardinia.

[962] This guy's amazing.

[963] You love him.

[964] Leave these letters with me. I'll send them around town.

[965] and then basically you can leave and go have your time and then I'll make sure no one talk shit about you, essentially.

[966] Sure.

[967] She wants her to include in those letters that she probably is not going to be coming back to Corrigio anytime soon.

[968] Jesus.

[969] Yeah.

[970] So Fasthenas, like, this is the best plan I've ever heard.

[971] Yeah.

[972] No questions.

[973] Plus, I'm in love with a picture that held up in front of me. Right.

[974] So now it's the day of Fesina's trip to meet her new love in Sardinia.

[975] But before she leaves, she stops by Leonardo.

[976] She's shop for a celebratory glass of wine.

[977] Before Fastina can even finish her drink, she feels her limbs start to feel heavy.

[978] Her speech is slurring a few more minutes pass, and now Fustina is unable to move.

[979] She's suddenly paralyzed.

[980] Leonardo gets up, she walks out of the shop, and she returns carrying an axe.

[981] An axe.

[982] An axe.

[983] No. She looks at Fastina and says, I'm sorry.

[984] and then wax her with the axe.

[985] So she was still conscious when that happened?

[986] Yep, still conscious.

[987] And worse than this, Fastina doesn't die on the first hit.

[988] Leonardo, of course, has never done this before.

[989] She ends up having to hit her again and again.

[990] So violent, so horrible.

[991] But murdering Fastina is only step one of Leonardo's plan.

[992] She believes that to be fully protected, Giuseppe will have to consume some of Festina's body for this magic to work.

[993] She thinks this can be accomplished in two ways, first of all, by making tea cakes with fastina's blood so that Giuseppe eats them and has protection internally, and then by taking the fat from Festina's body and making soap that Giuseppe then can wash with and be protected externally.

[994] Girl, sit down for a minute.

[995] Let us talk to you.

[996] For real, like, this plan is the sign of an unwell mind in obviously.

[997] Right.

[998] I mean obviously.

[999] But like double time kind of.

[1000] Do I have to tell you?

[1001] Yeah, but just beyond.

[1002] Yeah.

[1003] And the truth is, this is all this bizarre plan that she has no idea what she's doing.

[1004] She's never done any of this before.

[1005] Yeah.

[1006] And what's terrible about it is she botched the axe murder and that caused most of Faustina's blood to end up on the floor of the shop.

[1007] Right.

[1008] So she's able to collect some.

[1009] She's able to make a few tea cakes with it.

[1010] Then when she goes to find the fat on Fasina's body to make the soap, Fasina's really skinny and there is almost none to make it with.

[1011] How would you even know where to find that?

[1012] I wouldn't even know where to start.

[1013] That's wild.

[1014] I would have planned that part a little better where it's like you have to pick somebody that right has some fat on their body sure what are you doing all of this is the gory horrible way of saying that leonarda realizes that she is going to have to kill again to be able to make these things that she's so convinced will protect her son okay basically leonardo quietly resumes her quote unquote normal life she meticulously cleans up the shop she disposes of all the evidence in the neighborhood septic tank she does feed the bloody tea cakes to her unsuspecting son, which in and of itself is so wild because you love this person the most on the planet and this is what you're doing to them.

[1015] It's so unhinged.

[1016] I can't believe, like, does her husband ask her how your day was at the end of the day?

[1017] Or, like, do they have any conversations about, like...

[1018] Maybe they'd been through so much at that point.

[1019] It was a lot of, like, you sit over there and read your newspaper.

[1020] Right.

[1021] I'm going to be here doing all kinds of fucked up shit.

[1022] Mm -hmm.

[1023] So meanwhile, rumors start swirling and Corigio, that Faustina has run off to find love in Sardinia.

[1024] And even though Leonardo seems to be in the clear, she continues to obsess that Giuseppe will be sent off to war and that her mother's curse is going to come true.

[1025] So she starts looking for a new sacrifice.

[1026] Months past, now it's 1940.

[1027] Leonardo has her sights set on another one of her clients.

[1028] This woman's name is Francesca Suavi.

[1029] And she's younger than Fasdina was.

[1030] she has a much higher standing in the community because apparently Leonardo has gotten the idea that sacrificing a more quote -unquote worthy person will somehow maximize the protection that she's trying to invoke.

[1031] So Leonardo knows Francesca is in a very vulnerable place.

[1032] She recently left her job as a school teacher to care for her sick husband.

[1033] And then once her husband passed away, she became destitute.

[1034] So when Francesca asks Leonardo about job opportunities, which is why she was there.

[1035] Leonardo basically says there's an exciting job opening at a girls' school up north, but she says they need this teacher as soon as possible.

[1036] And it has to be filled right away.

[1037] So you have to go pack your things right away and move immediately.

[1038] And Francesca's like, absolutely, I'll do whatever it takes.

[1039] So Leonardo gets Francesca to write a bunch of letters to her friends and family and says, don't worry, I'll drop them in the mail for you.

[1040] Yeah.

[1041] So Francesca's packed up her stuff, booked a train ticket.

[1042] She stops by Leonardo's to say goodbye.

[1043] While she's there, Leonardo offers her a celebratory glass of wine.

[1044] And basically the exact same horrible scene plays out.

[1045] Francesca drinks the poison wine, loses the ability to move or speak.

[1046] She's slipping in and out of consciousness as she sees Leonardo enter the room holding an axe.

[1047] This time, Leonardo is able to kill Francesca with one blow to the neck.

[1048] She grabs wash basins to collect Francesca's blood and then dismembers her.

[1049] It is just the most horrible thing.

[1050] Yeah.

[1051] Again, Leonardo's attempt at soap making using human fat doesn't work.

[1052] She winds up with a horrible, awful -smelling goop.

[1053] She just ends up dumping it in the septic tank along with the rest of Francesca's remains.

[1054] But she does manage to make another batch of bloody tea cakes and she feeds them to Giuseppe the same night.

[1055] Gross.

[1056] But again, in Leonardo's mind, this is still not enough to beat her mother's curse.

[1057] So she starts to plan round three.

[1058] Oh, my God.

[1059] And this time, Leonardo aims even higher.

[1060] She chooses a widow named Virginia Cachopo.

[1061] And Virginia is a very big deal in their town.

[1062] She is a former opera singer.

[1063] She toured in big cities like Milan.

[1064] She's talented.

[1065] She's beautiful.

[1066] She's rich.

[1067] And she's also one of Leonardo's best friends.

[1068] Oh, no. Oh, no. But since they've been friends, Leonardo has soured on Virginia because she recently announced that she's ready to leave Corigio and move back to a big city.

[1069] And Leonardo feels very betrayed by this.

[1070] And so she's like, well, now it's you and you deserve it.

[1071] Come on.

[1072] She never lets Virginia know that she's pissed.

[1073] And Virginia ends up really asking her friend to help her as she plans this big move.

[1074] So it's September of 1940, and Leonardo shares good news with Virginia.

[1075] She says she knows of an excellent job opportunity in Florence.

[1076] And the job comes with this beautiful apartment, and Leonardo claims that it's overseen by an artist who organizes operas.

[1077] So Virginia, of course, is thrilled by, this is like, it's the perfect situation.

[1078] It almost sounds too perfect, but she, of course, enthusiastically tells Leonardo, yes, I'm interested.

[1079] And at Leonardo's suggestion, Virginia starts writing letters to her friends and family as if she's already moved and is thriving in Florence.

[1080] So before long, it's time for Virginia to hit the road.

[1081] So she stops by Leonardo's store to say goodbye.

[1082] And for a third time, Leonardo, yep, offers a glass of wine.

[1083] Virginia's poisoned.

[1084] Leonardo murders her with an axe, cuts up her best friend and attempts to turn her into soap and tea cakes.

[1085] Jesus.

[1086] And this time, she also rummages through her friend's things and pockets her jewelry, cash, and clothing.

[1087] Fuck.

[1088] So this time, Leonardo is able to make soap from Virginia's body.

[1089] And once it's ready to use, she brings it home.

[1090] And she instructs her now 18 -year -old son Giuseppe to take off his clothes and allow her to give him a bath.

[1091] Yay.

[1092] And he's like, no thank you.

[1093] But she basically is like, no, I have to.

[1094] And she washes him head to toe with this soap.

[1095] And along with those tea cakes that Giuseppe eats, Leonardo is finally convinced that she has successfully ensured her son's safety.

[1096] I only took three innocent people.

[1097] The madness of it.

[1098] Yeah.

[1099] So Marin makes a great point.

[1100] Even though Leonardo claims that she murdered these women to protect her son, her actions overall seem to suggest full -blown son.

[1101] Psychopathy.

[1102] Yeah.

[1103] Which, yes, absolutely.

[1104] And in addition to knowingly engaging in cannibalism herself, she also hands out her tea cakes and bars of soap to many other people in the community.

[1105] Oh.

[1106] Yes.

[1107] And when she does this, she almost seems giddy about it.

[1108] She would later say, quote, I gave bars to neighbors and acquaintances, the tea cakes, too.

[1109] That woman was really sweet, end quote.

[1110] Imagine, yeah.

[1111] Imagine going to the farmer's market.

[1112] do do do.

[1113] There's the soap stand.

[1114] It's so evil.

[1115] Just that thing.

[1116] My friend Danny told me a story of there's kids in his neighborhood that would all play together all the time.

[1117] And one time some kids' older brother tricked him into taking up, he thought it was chocolate pie and it was dog shit.

[1118] Oh!

[1119] This kid, he compulsively spit for like years afterward.

[1120] He just kept constantly turning his head and spitting.

[1121] That's evil.

[1122] It's that kind of thing where it's like, I feel like nowadays days we all are starting to understand the profound psychological effect people can have on other people.

[1123] Right.

[1124] Totally.

[1125] It's like, that's why we talk about triggers.

[1126] That's why we talk about all these things.

[1127] It's like, it's not no big deal.

[1128] Yeah.

[1129] There's no get over it.

[1130] It's a huge deal.

[1131] Yeah.

[1132] No, no. There's no get over it.

[1133] Okay, so for a while, Leonardo believes she's gotten away with three murders.

[1134] But then, luckily, Virginia's sister -in -law, a woman named Albertina, stops by Leonardo's shop.

[1135] Albertina and Virginia were very close, so something about this whole situation, a Virginia just kind of leaving town and like, I'm in Florence, does not sit right with her.

[1136] When she asks Leonardo about it, Leonardo claims total ignorance, and that makes Albertina even more worried.

[1137] She has a feeling Leonardo does know something and she's not saying it, so Albertina goes to the police and begs them to investigate.

[1138] And as the Correggio investigators start building a case, they learn about both Faustina and Francesca's disappearances, and they learn that both women were last seen at Leonardo's shop before they supposedly left town.

[1139] So before long, the police have collected the letters sent to the friends and families of the missing women from all around town.

[1140] Oh, wow.

[1141] And that's when they start smelling a rat, because, according to the postmarks, each woman mailed their letters on the exact same day, even though they left town at different times.

[1142] Oops.

[1143] And more suspiciously, eyewitnesses report that the same person always dropped off this bundle of letters at the post office, Giuseppe Pensardi.

[1144] The son?

[1145] The son.

[1146] Uh -oh.

[1147] Yes.

[1148] Mm -hmm.

[1149] So now the police begin building their case against Giuseppe.

[1150] Uh -oh.

[1151] They are convinced he's murdered these women.

[1152] So they bring in his mother, Leonardo, for questioning, basically, to, you know, find out what he's been up to.

[1153] but when Leonardo learns that her son's being targeted for these murders, she's terrified.

[1154] There is no way she's going to let her precious, precious boy go down for these crimes.

[1155] So finally, Leonardo confesses.

[1156] But these claims that she makes, that she's the murder, she orchestrated the letters, and that basically her son was just being sent to the post office on an errand, the police are not convinced.

[1157] They basically think this very well -liked doting mother and this woman who's like a real, fixture in this town, they just think she's protecting her homicidal son.

[1158] Right.

[1159] And so Leonardo basically has to convince them by spilling the gory, gory details of these murders.

[1160] So Leonardo is swiftly arrested and sent to prison, and the news of her murder shakes, of course, the entire community as well, and probably a thousand times more so every member of the Pansardi family.

[1161] arguably no one more than her son Giuseppe.

[1162] So, of course, he distances himself from her for the rest of his life, ironically.

[1163] Yeah.

[1164] In the early 40s, when he is finally sent to World War II, he doesn't even tell his mother.

[1165] He doesn't speak to her at all.

[1166] She's just gone.

[1167] Sure.

[1168] Meanwhile, Leonardo is sitting in her prison cell, satisfied with all of her life's decisions, according to writer Geneviva Ortiz, Quote, she did what she needed to do.

[1169] She had no regrets, no remorse.

[1170] Her mission in life was complete.

[1171] What did she care if Giuseppe did not love her so long as he survived the war?

[1172] Wow.

[1173] And quote.

[1174] So as World War II rages on, Leonardo waits six years for her trial to take place.

[1175] She basically just has to sit in jail until a world war wraps up.

[1176] Right, right.

[1177] And in an eerie callback to the Romani fortune tellers, words long ago.

[1178] In one hand, I see a prison and another an insane asylum.

[1179] Leonardo, when she finally does go to trial, is sentenced to 30 years behind bars and an additional three years in an asylum.

[1180] She dies in October 1970 at the age of 77.

[1181] And as far as we know, her children, including Giuseppe, all outlive their mother.

[1182] And that is the story of Leonardo Chenchuli, the soap maker of Correggio.

[1183] Holy shit.

[1184] I have never heard of that before in my life.

[1185] I know.

[1186] Same.

[1187] That is twisted.

[1188] Crazy.

[1189] So crazy.

[1190] Oh, my God.

[1191] Great job.

[1192] Thank you.

[1193] See, all is not well in Italy, turns out.

[1194] Finally, I'm convinced everything isn't great there.

[1195] And also, everything isn't really great here.

[1196] I know.

[1197] I hate this.

[1198] We're getting to this part.

[1199] I know.

[1200] Stephen Ray Morris, as everyone knows, has been our engineer since basically the beginning of this podcast.

[1201] I think he came in two months after we started.

[1202] Before that, Georgia was the sound man for a couple recordings.

[1203] I was great at it.

[1204] I was an absentee co -host working other jobs and being like, I can't do anything.

[1205] Is that going to be okay?

[1206] And Georgia's like, yeah, I guess so.

[1207] Like, what are we going to do?

[1208] Just show up.

[1209] And here comes Stephen.

[1210] Thank the Lord.

[1211] to record with us and to slowly begin to take on every other thing that we couldn't handle.

[1212] That pile...

[1213] Yeah.

[1214] At one point, Stephen booked airline tickets for me. I wasn't very good at it, but, you know, I was able to do it.

[1215] You did it.

[1216] Thinking back to, like, what you did, Stephen, and, like, now there's a team of, like, five people like, that work that do those jobs.

[1217] Yes.

[1218] It's insane.

[1219] And that, yeah, you just...

[1220] You were the moderator on the Facebook page for fuck's sake.

[1221] Like, you went to the front lines for this podcast.

[1222] Above and beyond, above and beyond.

[1223] And so you're making this choice, which is so...

[1224] We're so proud of you for taking care of yourself and making this choice to take a break from stuff.

[1225] But when I saw that email that you sent that you were like, hey, I'm going to do some other stuff and take a break and do what's...

[1226] best for me. I just didn't, I was like, I just didn't know what to say.

[1227] I was just like, I want to cry.

[1228] I'm really proud of you.

[1229] I think it's great.

[1230] It makes me go like, that's the that, like, it's foundational to this podcast.

[1231] And the fact that you would be gone, I just don't know what that's going to be like.

[1232] But I hope you understand that we truly could never have done this without you.

[1233] Definitely.

[1234] Stephen, this would not exist.

[1235] we are just, I'm heartbroken, but I'm so excited for you and your next chapter and what your beautiful life will look like.

[1236] Yeah, you're such a, you're such a talented, generous person and you were so over, I always, like, back in the day, I was always like, why is he doing this for us?

[1237] Like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be doing this for us.

[1238] And you did.

[1239] You just like, you were just committed and you were with us, and it was help we needed so badly.

[1240] And you showed up every week without question.

[1241] You just like, you really, you really did give us your all.

[1242] And we'll never be able to thank you enough for that.

[1243] I mean, well, I'm going to cut this part out.

[1244] No, I just, you know, it's a lot to accomplish.

[1245] I mean, seven years is a long time.

[1246] And yeah, I mean, I honestly couldn't imagine this day coming.

[1247] But at the same time, you guys have taught me so much and there's so many things my life is so much better.

[1248] And you've given me the tools that I think are so valuable.

[1249] And I think the thing that the thing we've done with the show, which is like we can look after ourselves and each other.

[1250] And that's really what's important in life.

[1251] And, you know, a lot of times people go in life and they don't ever think about how to, you know, take care of themselves in a way that's meaningful that can not only make, their life better, but the people around them better.

[1252] And I'm so grateful for that.

[1253] I just feel like I'm such a better person, you know.

[1254] And again, it's that the thing goes both ways.

[1255] You know, I really believe in you both and you guys really believed in me, you know, believe in me. And I don't know.

[1256] That's, yeah.

[1257] Thank you.

[1258] Thank you.

[1259] Oh, thank you.

[1260] I can't wait to see your next chapter, Stephen.

[1261] You're just.

[1262] But you always have a home.

[1263] Of course.

[1264] You always have a home here.

[1265] I hope you know that.

[1266] like whatever your adventure, wherever your adventures take you, you know, you can always come back and you have more than earned an open -door policy for me and Georgia and anything that we make because truly, like, you're the glue.

[1267] Thank you.

[1268] Yeah.

[1269] Yeah, we're going to be hanging out still.

[1270] It's going to be great.

[1271] Yes.

[1272] Yeah, it's not a goodbye.

[1273] It's a see you soon.

[1274] So, good.

[1275] Thank you.

[1276] Let's yell at one time.

[1277] Karen, ready?

[1278] Steven!

[1279] Oh, I got to cry.

[1280] I know.

[1281] I love you guys.

[1282] Love you, Stephen.

[1283] We love you, Stephen.

[1284] Thank you for everything.

[1285] Thank you.

[1286] Well.

[1287] I know that we're all crying.

[1288] What if the sound just goes off and then it just leaves?

[1289] There's a tiny violin playing.

[1290] Oh, my God.

[1291] Wow.

[1292] Well, thanks, you guys, for listening and for being a part of this.

[1293] too.

[1294] We're just, I feel like we're just a family and...

[1295] Yeah.

[1296] It's kind of weird.

[1297] It's a true crime podcast.

[1298] Yeah.

[1299] It's really.

[1300] It's very strange.

[1301] But yeah, I feel very lucky.

[1302] And yeah, we should title this one, this one's for Stephen.

[1303] Yeah.

[1304] Yeah.

[1305] Definitely.

[1306] Definitely.

[1307] All right.

[1308] Stay sexy, Stephen.

[1309] And don't get murdered, Stephen.

[1310] We love you.

[1311] We love you.

[1312] Say it with us.

[1313] Goodbye.

[1314] We nailed it.

[1315] Oh, my God.

[1316] I'm going to cry.

[1317] Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[1318] This has been an exactly right production.

[1319] Our producer is Alejandra Keck.

[1320] Our senior producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton.

[1321] This episode was engineered and mixed by Stephen Ray Morris.

[1322] Our researcher is Marin McClashen.

[1323] Email your hometowns and fucking hooray to My Favorite Murder at gmail .com.

[1324] Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at MyFave Murder.

[1325] Goodbye.

[1326] Follow my favorite murder on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen so you don't miss an episode.

[1327] If you like what you hear, rate and review the show.

[1328] Visit exactly right store .com to purchase my favorite murder merch.