Rob McElhenney

[0] Oh, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm getting prepared for Halloween.

[2] I see that.

[3] I hear it.

[4] Yeah, because it's Monday.

[5] Yeah?

[6] And we are, but I'm nine days away from the big day, Halloween, trick or treat, smell my feet.

[7] Give me something good to eat, Monica.

[8] Is it nine days away?

[9] Yes.

[10] 31st, week from Wednesday.

[11] Great.

[12] Well, we have another episode.

[13] So did between.

[14] Armchair expert.

[15] Did that sound Halloween?

[16] Mm -hmm.

[17] I cut you off here.

[18] You always do.

[19] I was already winding up my voice before you started talking.

[20] Sorry, hit me again.

[21] No, I don't remember.

[22] Hit me with your best shot.

[23] Well, you were just saying I didn't remember what I was going to say.

[24] You can't be mad about that.

[25] Well, it's your right to be mad about that if you want.

[26] You just can't control it.

[27] Oh, so sorry.

[28] I've only had an outlet where I got to hear my own voice a couple hours a week.

[29] I know, you poor baby, you don't get to listen to your own sound.

[30] Do you want to try a Halloween intro?

[31] Never.

[32] Oh, because it would include doing a character voice.

[33] It's kind of like doing a character and a song.

[34] Oh, sure.

[35] It's too scary.

[36] Okay.

[37] Well, today's guest is not scary.

[38] No, he's not.

[39] He's a babe.

[40] He's a super talent.

[41] I talk about him kind of often on here.

[42] So this is a long time coming.

[43] Yes.

[44] He's one of your idols.

[45] He's one of my idols.

[46] I really look up to him.

[47] His name is Rob Mechlehenny.

[48] And he is one of the creators and showrunners of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia.

[49] He's also got a new show he's putting together over at Apple.

[50] I think we talk about that a little bit.

[51] He is a mega talent.

[52] Oh, this son of a bitch was on Fargo.

[53] Oh, I know.

[54] He was so great on it too.

[55] I know, but it kind of made me mad.

[56] As much as I love him and Root Farm, I was like, come on, man, you're on my favorite show?

[57] I want to be on my favorite show.

[58] Don't get, don't be jealous of your friends who are doing well.

[59] And also, you are saying Philadelphia wrong.

[60] Oh, wonderful.

[61] Well, he is from Philadelphia.

[62] Okay.

[63] And his name is Rob McElhenney.

[64] And he is very talented.

[65] Oh, that got embarrassing.

[66] How about this?

[67] I want to hear your blood.

[68] What is that?

[69] I'm going for a broke.

[70] I want to talk.

[71] Talk to Rob.

[72] That was pretty good.

[73] Okay.

[74] You're so embarrassed for me. Enjoy Rob McElheny.

[75] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[76] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[77] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[78] McElhany, welcome.

[79] You've said that you've listened to a few episodes.

[80] And if you stumbled.

[81] across anywhere I'm kind of going into my affection for you?

[82] Yes well with my wife well sure but that's not the only time I think one time with I noticed with Kimmel but you said something about you said something about me to Kimmel and he just moved as quickly past it as he couldn't I was like that would be a great opportunity to hear what Kimmel thinks and I did I did hear I doubt that but I bet happened was that was on my first interviews and I was interrupting quite a bit in the early stages of this.

[83] And he was probably mid thought on something and I interjected something about you.

[84] That would be my guess.

[85] I will say that I heard your, I heard that critique, well, you brought that critique up that you heard from other people that you were interrupting people.

[86] I didn't notice that.

[87] Well, what was going on a little bit is that we didn't edit the first 10 episodes or so.

[88] So when there was a five minute, or five minute, five second pause, I would start panicking like a brand new talk show host.

[89] And then I would think, well, I better just talk.

[90] God forbid you just edit.

[91] Let any sign.

[92] Or God forbid there's five fucking seconds where my voice isn't steamrolling everything.

[93] But I've also talked, no, because I've talked about working out with you.

[94] Someone was in here and they had mentioned your physique.

[95] Yeah.

[96] You really have come up a lot.

[97] Yeah.

[98] I want to say it's five plus.

[99] Really?

[100] Yes.

[101] Definitely on the fact checks.

[102] Maybe that's why.

[103] Because I know when there was one fact check where we were talking about Charlie.

[104] Charlie on our calendar.

[105] Yeah, from my perfect 10 calendar.

[106] And then you were also brought up in that conversation about.

[107] And that was in the fact.

[108] See, I don't listen to the fact checking because I like to live in the dark.

[109] Okay.

[110] I like to just assume that everything that was said was correct.

[111] Yeah.

[112] Even though I can sometimes.

[113] I'm listening and I'm like no I that's not correct but I but they'll figure it but I'll never find out I will know ignorance is bliss as they say um but usually when I'm I go into my pitch about you what it involves is that I really look up to you really yeah quite a bit and and I don't even know well I have my theories on why I look up to you so much but I really have this gravitation towards you and I really admire you in a lot of ways I think first and foremost you're a man of credible discipline.

[114] Would you accept that compliment with grace and foe humility?

[115] Yes.

[116] In some areas of my life, yes, not all, but in some.

[117] You know that that's one of your strengths.

[118] Yes.

[119] Let's just start by saying you probably can't get anywhere at 40 plus years old, having done anything, not at least acknowledge some of your, you know, your qualities.

[120] Yes.

[121] And focus your energy in on that.

[122] Yes.

[123] I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm fairly disciplined when it comes to certain aspects of my life, yes.

[124] And work, work, work being one of them.

[125] Work being one of, yes.

[126] We think, oh, the director.

[127] That's somebody who must really have their hands full.

[128] But a showrunner to explain.

[129] It's, like, oh, the director.

[130] That's somebody who must really have their hands full.

[131] But a showrunner, to explain.

[132] I'm tempted to, but you're here and you're a showrunner.

[133] So tell me what a showrunner does.

[134] A showrunner is essentially the person who is making sure that the show happens.

[135] So he or she is generally writing the vast majority of the shows, or at least taking a pass through all of them.

[136] He or she is in the writer's room as much as he or she can be to make sure that the creative direction is all flowing in the right direction.

[137] is in the editing room, is on set as much as he or she can be.

[138] Really, it's the last line of defense.

[139] Casting, yes.

[140] And that's what, that's the, that's the job that I serve on.

[141] It's always Sunday in Philadelphia.

[142] And you've done 100 episodes at this point?

[143] I think we've done like 160.

[144] Something like that.

[145] Geez, Louise.

[146] But I never knew what a showrunner was either.

[147] And I, like, some of my favorite shows.

[148] Even when you had the job, probably.

[149] Yeah.

[150] Oh, yeah.

[151] Well, no, I knew what a waiter was.

[152] Right.

[153] Because I had done enough of that.

[154] But, no, but like growing up, I would, I would watch, you know, you'd watch Seinfeld, for example.

[155] And I'd go, okay, I see this name Larry David come up a lot.

[156] And I don't know who he is, but he's got something important to do on the show.

[157] But I don't know what it is.

[158] I just know that the show's about Jerry and I know George and I know Elaine and I know Kramer.

[159] But I never really put two and two together that there was a person behind the scenes.

[160] that was making sure that the show was being made.

[161] Well, and even, I was in the dark about it long enough that it made a lot of news when Larry David made $800 million or whatever the fucking number was, right?

[162] And I remember going, wait, how did a guy that was not on the show make $800 million or how did he make almost the same amount as Jerry Seinfeld?

[163] That exact, that year, I remember reading that Jerry Seinfeld was the number one highest paid person in the entertainment industry that particular year, more than Oprah.

[164] And the number two person was Larry David.

[165] And I think I was the same.

[166] I was like, who's that guy?

[167] And why is he getting almost the same as Jerry Seinfeld?

[168] Yeah.

[169] He's not been in a single scene.

[170] No. And then I also remember, I remember at one point being in high school and watching the show and it felt different for some reason.

[171] And I didn't know why it felt different, but it wasn't that it wasn't as good or as funny.

[172] It just felt a little bit different.

[173] And then it wasn't until years went by and until I subsequently understood that that was the year that Larry left.

[174] So he left.

[175] And actually, Alec Berg took over, Alec and Jeff, Schaefer took over and Dave Mandel.

[176] And the show was just a little bit different.

[177] Not, not markedly so, but just a little bit different.

[178] And that was the Larry.

[179] What season?

[180] I can't remember off the top of my head, but it was like second to last or something like that.

[181] And then Larry came back.

[182] And he came back.

[183] you know that behind the scenes why he came back they just said oh this is a little bit different let's get larry i think he just got burned burned out it's an it's an exhausting job well and just think you know how hard you work and you do what 10 to 13 or something yeah the most we've ever done is 15 but now we only do 10 and they were doing 24 a year right yeah that's an that's an insane schedule right and you know live and they were doing they were shooting them you know they were taping them live so that's a whole different other level of of pressure whereas we, you know, we're shooting single camera, which is different.

[184] Yeah.

[185] And I think maybe, I wonder if it was for the same reason.

[186] I didn't give Seinfeld a chance when I was young because it's what everybody was talking about.

[187] It's like what my uncle who I wouldn't want to have a conversation was talking about, you know, and I thought, oh, this must not be cool.

[188] It was just too mainstream for me trying to define myself as an outcast to openly admit that I enjoyed.

[189] What were the show, did you watch television in high school?

[190] Yeah, in high school, I was obsessed with Party of Five.

[191] Mm -hmm.

[192] Donna Martin graduates.

[193] Beva the Hills 902101.

[194] Bev, 9 .210.

[195] Yep.

[196] In fact, you know, my...

[197] So you gravitated towards the drama.

[198] You know, to this day, like, I will sit here.

[199] I admire the fuck out of you.

[200] I've been on your show.

[201] I've only watched three episodes.

[202] Yeah.

[203] I have almost zero interest in watching comedy.

[204] I can't put my finger on it, but I at least am comforted by the fact that I find a lot of us that are in comedy don't consume much comedy.

[205] Are you the same?

[206] Exactly the same.

[207] Exactly the same.

[208] It was just maybe last week when I was like, oh my God, it's the bad place.

[209] Holy shit.

[210] It's the bad place.

[211] I'm like two, three years behind.

[212] And the only reason that I was watching it is because I know so many people associated with that show.

[213] And but even that wasn't it.

[214] And it was because A member of the staff No, a member of the staff of my current show Was like you really I was like basically stealing storylines Without having seen the show Right.

[215] And they were like, no, they did this on the good place I'm like, all right, what about this?

[216] No, they're doing that on the good place I'm like, fuck, I got to watch the good place Because I'm inadvertently stealing from them So anyway, watch it and love it.

[217] Of course everyone's going to say you stole, right?

[218] Yes.

[219] No, I don't watch.

[220] I watch very, very little comedy.

[221] although I will say because I'm working on this new show that I've been trying to watch as much as I possibly can of what's working now.

[222] It lasts like a year or so.

[223] And it sounds a little arrogant or ego maniacal to position it this way, but I guess if I had to really break down the math of why I don't enjoy it is exactly that.

[224] To me, it's like watching algebra be cracked.

[225] Like I can see the mechanics of it so much that it's almost hard for me to enjoy.

[226] The shows that I, the comedies that I have fallen, in love with are Master of Nunn.

[227] Have you watched that?

[228] Yep.

[229] I mean, it's fucking beautiful.

[230] That show is seen, to me, has this like, the richness of Annie Hall in a comedy.

[231] It's so romantic that show.

[232] I love that show, yeah.

[233] It's so good.

[234] Atlanta.

[235] I've been watching a lot of Atlanta.

[236] Well, and maybe that's why I respond.

[237] And I've seen every episode of Master of Nunn.

[238] I've seen every episode of Atlanta.

[239] And I think it's because they're so different from, say, 30 Rock, which is very similar to the show that I make.

[240] That maybe I, and community is the same way.

[241] Maybe I just want something a little bit different from what you're doing all day long.

[242] Well, and I think, I think you and I enjoy the same kind of comedy, or at least we set out to make the same kind of comedy, which it is funny.

[243] Well, no, that's secondary to me to stunts.

[244] But after we've got some explosions and stuff, then I really want the comedy to come out of a character.

[245] I want it to be because this person.

[246] so unique that the way they're just moving through everyday life is going to cause some problems as opposed to the world's crazy or the punchlines are insane it's like no the person's crazy the world's pretty real or the person's unique and the rules of the world are real well sure and that's what that's what we've been doing on sunny and i think that's why it's lasted so long is that the world um the world is the straight man and there are no straight men or women on in the cast of the show.

[247] The joke is always like whoever it was guest cast winds up being the straight person.

[248] Right, right.

[249] Yeah.

[250] You invite people to come watch you guys be funny.

[251] Yeah.

[252] But I, but I, but yeah, I just don't, when I get home, I just don't want to, I just don't want to, although I've been watching a lot of VEP recently, which is again, incredible.

[253] It's so fucking good.

[254] It's the best.

[255] What's your favorite show?

[256] Comedy?

[257] No, your favorite show.

[258] Oh.

[259] Well, my favorite show of all time is friends.

[260] Sure.

[261] That's my favorite show.

[262] I'm embarrassed to say it.

[263] That's not out.

[264] I don't know why.

[265] It's an incredible show.

[266] I know, but it feels like I should be saying beep.

[267] Although I do love Veep.

[268] I think it's the best.

[269] Well, no, you're supposed to say the wire.

[270] The right answer is the wire.

[271] Well, for comedy.

[272] If you're in LA.

[273] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[274] But it's not a wrong answer.

[275] No, no. It's incredible.

[276] in my top three but I'm just saying when you say you're embarrassed like generally you're supposed to say the wire yeah I don't know how about for you is sopranos in the pantheon absolutely oh I don't know I've watched it I've watched it all the way through three times and and and it's legitimately bad like there are episodes there are actors there's direction there's writing in it that I feel like is legitimately bad and it doesn't matter well that's the thing is it's my first it's like the first show that that was, took itself as serious as a movie would.

[277] And I just was so in love with it.

[278] And it was like a paradigm shattering experience to watch it.

[279] And I'll never have a feeling about a show like I do about that show.

[280] Yeah, the best acting I think I've just ever seen.

[281] He was how old?

[282] First season?

[283] This is going to, well, now I know it's a trick.

[284] I mean, if I was being sincere, I would say I'd guess that he was 51 in the first.

[285] He was 36 years.

[286] Oh, my.

[287] I mean that.

[288] And you can check that.

[289] I will.

[290] You will check that when they shot the pilot of the Sopranos.

[291] He was 36 years old.

[292] Oh, my God.

[293] Yes.

[294] But back to, so anyways, swirling around and why I'm so impressed with you as a person is.

[295] Yes, let's get back to that.

[296] Yeah, yeah, because I want that to be the thing.

[297] It's going to be a love letter to you this whole episode.

[298] I'm meeting with one of my idols.

[299] Oh, all right.

[300] Well, I appreciate that because I feel like it's going to be a pretty boring podcast otherwise.

[301] I mean, you know, I hear, because I know, you're having a thing with Mindy right now.

[302] I'm talking about.

[303] I really want her.

[304] I know, but I understand her perspective.

[305] Like I, you know?

[306] Yes.

[307] because I am a fan of this show.

[308] Uh -huh.

[309] And a fan of a lot of other podcasts, talk shows that, uh, I feel like I am not a, I would not be a good guest.

[310] I will not be a good guest.

[311] I will not be a person that I want to listen to.

[312] That's, that's horses.

[313] And that, but that's, that is, that is, that is not faux.

[314] Humility.

[315] Humility.

[316] Yeah.

[317] That's a bona fide.

[318] insecurity.

[319] No. Okay.

[320] Thank you for correcting me. Yes.

[321] No, I don't think it's an insecurity.

[322] Okay.

[323] You think it's an accurate appraisal of your.

[324] Yes.

[325] No, that's horseship.

[326] Because you're one of the most well -spoken people I've met.

[327] You have an incredibly interesting childhood.

[328] You have created something out of nothing.

[329] You're married to a famous girl who I happen to love.

[330] I mean, what more do you fucking need for an interview?

[331] Now I've led it all exactly to where I wanted.

[332] That's what I wanted to hear.

[333] I needed that.

[334] You have everything we would need.

[335] Let's go back to Philadelphia.

[336] I'm what, four years older than you?

[337] I'm 41.

[338] Oh, I'm only two years older.

[339] That helps a little bit.

[340] Okay.

[341] Is it interesting to you that I like you so much?

[342] Yes.

[343] It is.

[344] I appreciate it.

[345] Like, you're the, you're a, well, I feel like you're a man, you're a man's man. Okay.

[346] But one of the things that Caitlin and I always discuss, uh, with regard.

[347] to you is that you are effusive uh with your emotional connection that you have with other men and your praise for other men i love men you love men i do you love men we both do absolutely we both love muscles so much don't we oh yeah it when and when did that and i well i also don't have any um i don't know i i have no compunction i mean i i guess i grew i grew up with like around tough guys and they were always incredibly affectionate my whole life isn't like my yeah my dad's um actually both my mother and my father they they came from families of nine and ten um and respectively and they and they're full of like blue collar tough men who drank and smoke smoked and some spent some spent some time in you know incarcerated in other places sure sure uh and uncle mike wasn't at every Christmas.

[348] Lots of cousins, uncles, and also just people in the neighborhood and things like that, and who, who, they kissed each other hello.

[349] That was, I just remember that from a very early, from a very early age.

[350] Always hugging, always kissing, always like telling you, I love you, telling me I love you.

[351] And so I just always grew up with it.

[352] I don't know if it's just like a cultural thing.

[353] It's also amongst my friends that I grew up with too.

[354] Like the, the, and they also came from similar families.

[355] I don't know if it's a Catholic thing, an Irish Catholic thing.

[356] Or I don't know what it is.

[357] But we're all, I'm very affectionate with other men.

[358] Yes.

[359] And you really appreciate the male form.

[360] Sure.

[361] Yeah.

[362] Who doesn't?

[363] Well, some folks aren't as into it as you and I have.

[364] I find it fascinating.

[365] Could I just say the best thing is whenever, you and I have had this moment like maybe 10 times over the last decade where I see something that's muscle related like a documentary.

[366] And then the first thing I do is text you.

[367] And this has happened where you literally within the last 24 hours have just consume the exact same thing.

[368] Well, you were, I think you were talking to Ike or maybe it was Seth about the funniest scene that you've seen in a movie in a long time.

[369] And I remember texting you saying, but I think I found the funniest scene in the history of movies.

[370] And you said, I already saw it.

[371] I think when the guy falls off the horse.

[372] It's the greatest.

[373] Yeah.

[374] Yeah, Generation Iron.

[375] I find masculinity hilarious.

[376] It's really weird, right?

[377] Because you and I both can recognize the total danger of it, that it's potentially.

[378] toxic and quite often is terrible.

[379] And in fact, when I'm in bars back home with a bunch of dudes jockeying for the alpha role, I can't stand it at this point in my life.

[380] Yet I'm really fascinated with it.

[381] I find it equally magnetic.

[382] Yes.

[383] Both repulsive and magnetic.

[384] Yes.

[385] What is that?

[386] So bizarre.

[387] I don't know.

[388] It's just it's infused into my genetic code.

[389] Here's when I knew I was going to like you.

[390] Is Caitlin basically said, you know, I think I was one of the first people.

[391] people to find out you guys were dating.

[392] You and your two friends created the show.

[393] It's always sunny.

[394] And she was cast in it.

[395] You guys got to know each other.

[396] And then you started having a steaming affair.

[397] And it was under wraps.

[398] No one really knew about it.

[399] And then you maybe came out season two or three or something.

[400] Something like that.

[401] Yeah.

[402] But she was telling me, oh, yeah, I'm dating one of the guys from the show.

[403] Oh, I'm what guy.

[404] And I had met you guys.

[405] And she said Rob.

[406] And then she had a story about you guys being in a bar in Santa Monica.

[407] You had some friends in town visiting.

[408] Do you have a legal situation where you can't talk about?

[409] Possible.

[410] I think enough time has passed.

[411] Okay, you know what?

[412] This was in Rome.

[413] This happened in Rome and you didn't have friends in from time.

[414] But at any rate, a scaffold broke out and you were vastly outnumbered.

[415] Yes.

[416] But all of a sudden she had my full attention.

[417] I'm like, okay, you like a guy that if outnumbered and to defend his friends will go to the fucking limits.

[418] I think I like this guy a lot.

[419] That was my first.

[420] And that's terrible.

[421] I can recognize that's terrible.

[422] That's no reason to like a guy.

[423] But I really liked that about you.

[424] And I thought, I'm really glad you're going to be with a guy that will, you know.

[425] Well, let's break that down for a second.

[426] What is it that you liked about it?

[427] I'm very attracted to courageous acts.

[428] So it's very scary to take on five or six dudes if there's three of you.

[429] And yeah, I'm really attracted to acts of courage.

[430] again probably wrongly but I am can't help it yeah I well I've heard you tell this you've told the story to me many times you've told it on the on on the podcast about the guy that threw the the milkshake was it a milkshake or a soda at the at your car and you yeah pulled over and you went and found him yeah and and I did have legal trouble of course right you can't advocate for that but there's something about it it's it it's like what well it's it's safe for me to hear that story and to love it because that is some level there's some level of justice right right and I'm and I recognize that in real life you were potentially putting your spouse in danger they hate it yeah of course you were you were potentially hurting another human being which I know you don't want to do they deserved it well of course and you were putting yourself into legal into a legal concern but also potentially a physical concern.

[431] And by the way, the real talk, financial.

[432] Fuck all that.

[433] I'll go do 60 days in jail.

[434] I don't want to.

[435] Damage was done in every way.

[436] And yet there's something intensely satisfying that justice prevailed to a certain extent.

[437] You have nailed it.

[438] Because again, when I heard the story about the six dudes, you know, acting fucking tough by picking on three guys, I go, oh, I love they got their comeuppance.

[439] Now that's, that's justice.

[440] Yeah.

[441] I'm really attracted to justice.

[442] Yeah, there's something about that.

[443] And that you're living vicariously through somebody else because you know that every decision that you made in that circumstance was essentially wrong, but justice was still, sir.

[444] This is why vigilanteism is just not allowed because, yeah, because we get it, we get it wrong quite often.

[445] Yes.

[446] I got it wrong.

[447] Again, it's the attraction and repulsion that I have to men and masculinity in general.

[448] Yeah.

[449] The whole thing is so fascinating to me. Do you, do you have an obsession with dads?

[450] Because Dax has a real obsession with dads.

[451] I think I noticed it on Caitlin's episode.

[452] I was like, this is a theme.

[453] You love dads.

[454] Yeah, his dad or her dad is the greatest.

[455] I think anyone would probably feel that way about her dad.

[456] Her dad is, is the greatest.

[457] I mean, to the point where, and I have two boys, but each time I thought, I assumed I was having a daughter and I really wanted to have a daughter, mostly because of the relationship that I saw with my sister and my father and also Caitlin and her father, which is very similar.

[458] He's just the absolute greatest.

[459] Yeah.

[460] Yeah, I hit the jackpot within laws.

[461] And by the way, he somehow navigates this, I call him Alpha 2 .0.

[462] He somehow is the guy that's not going to let anyone get hurt around him.

[463] But he has no toxicity to him.

[464] Zero.

[465] It's really evolved.

[466] He's a really, really sweet, gentle man, but I would not fuck with that.

[467] Yeah, yeah, right.

[468] You're not coming into his house.

[469] Yeah, that's the, that's the ideal.

[470] That's like the ideal.

[471] And I don't, I don't have, I don't have the abilities that he, but I, but I look up to him.

[472] Well, we're inching our way there.

[473] Yeah, but he's from a previous generation.

[474] I feel like we should be, we should be, we should have started.

[475] Yeah, we should have started beyond that.

[476] Well, my father's the same way.

[477] My father's incredibly pacifistic.

[478] But there's also a weird relationship that fathers, that sons have with fathers where I still believe that probably he could kick my ass.

[479] And he's turning 70 next week.

[480] Oh, really?

[481] Yeah.

[482] You still have that in your.

[483] Yeah.

[484] Like I believe, and I believe it.

[485] And I don't know that it's true, but there's something in my lizard brain that won't allow for it.

[486] I don't think it's true is my hunch.

[487] But also you can, do you remember ever deciding because I decided that I'm going to define myself in opposition to my father?

[488] I think that's natural.

[489] Okay.

[490] Well, some people seem to be chip off the old blocks.

[491] Possibly, yeah.

[492] I mean, it was always my experience.

[493] I mean, I certainly was exceptionally confrontational for the sake of being confrontational from the time I can remember.

[494] Yeah.

[495] And so.

[496] And why do you think that is?

[497] I don't know, probably just trying to define my own existence.

[498] What birth order are you?

[499] I was the first born.

[500] Uh -huh.

[501] But then I had a, then they had a sister and a girl and then another boy.

[502] Then my father got remarried and then there was an older sister that moved in.

[503] Okay.

[504] At 13.

[505] That was interesting.

[506] You were 13 or she was 13?

[507] I was 13.

[508] I think she was 14.

[509] Oh.

[510] So all of a sudden, you're 13 years old and you have a, you have a new 14 year old girl that moves in with you and you're sharing a bathroom and you're like, this is your sister.

[511] This is your family member.

[512] This is now your...

[513] I had the same thing, a little younger, but I was head over heels in love with her.

[514] I was bonkers for her.

[515] Did you have a crush on your sister?

[516] I just remember being very strange.

[517] And she was very attractive.

[518] She is very attractive.

[519] It was just the whole thing was very, very strange because there was also...

[520] It was just like thrust upon us.

[521] Like, here you go.

[522] Good luck.

[523] Good luck with everything.

[524] It was all just very confusing.

[525] Here's a gal.

[526] Right in the middle.

[527] of puberty.

[528] Yeah.

[529] And you're in puberty.

[530] Yeah.

[531] Oh, boy.

[532] I mean, this is really the premise for a lot of pornoes.

[533] I'm very honest about my sexual proclivities on here.

[534] Yeah.

[535] I'm not a big porn watcher.

[536] No. No. You know, when I was younger, I enjoyed it.

[537] Like, when I was first accessible at any moment on the internet, I think I had a little spell of it.

[538] But in general, I have a real hard time.

[539] It's hard for that to fulfill my fantasy because I just have a hard time buying into the fact that they're enjoying it, the females.

[540] Yeah.

[541] Well, what about like homemade or real life or amateur or something?

[542] That helps.

[543] Yeah.

[544] That would steer you into a direction of reality.

[545] That's a good lane to start in.

[546] Probably.

[547] We used told us in one of the fact checks that he thinks he's a real voyeur, like a real one, because he will sit in front of a window for three hours if there's going to be sex to watch.

[548] Even the slightest promise of it.

[549] Like someone's just home.

[550] Like, if I'm in New York, just the slimmest possibility.

[551] Just the idea that it could happen.

[552] I mean, anyone else would walk in someone objective who's not already sucked into that mindset.

[553] Would be like, that's not going to happen.

[554] Look, what they're doing.

[555] They're like, they're getting their bag ready to leave.

[556] Like, they're leaving.

[557] But just the slimmest chance that it could possibly happen.

[558] So I am surprised that you don't like porn.

[559] 1 % margin.

[560] Yeah.

[561] No, but that's, but that's very reality based, right?

[562] Like, this is a look into someone else's.

[563] life.

[564] Rear window.

[565] Yeah.

[566] So if someone, if a male comes into that scenario and things get frisky, you better believe they both want it.

[567] You certainly do.

[568] Okay.

[569] Back to, so, you know, I would just want to say one thing that's interesting, science speaking.

[570] You'll never find out whether it's right or wrong because you don't listen to the fact check.

[571] But what happens between siblings is that your olfactory sense picks up the scent of your siblings.

[572] and it registers it in your brain and actually kills any potential for sexual feelings.

[573] That's how it works.

[574] It's like an olfactory mechanism.

[575] And even kids who grew up and really like they play together nonstop, generally they'll register that scent and not be attracted to.

[576] And that's why you hear these stories of parent and child being reconnected that have been separated.

[577] And there's a kind of shockingly high rate of them hooking up because they haven't registered each other's pheromones.

[578] And yet there's this crazy.

[579] and familiarity and weird genetic stuff.

[580] It's very interesting.

[581] That was the Korean movie.

[582] Oh, there was a Korean movie that explored that.

[583] One of the best one of the best crew.

[584] That Spike Leary made.

[585] What's it called?

[586] Oh, buddy, something boy?

[587] Old boy.

[588] That was a gnarly movie.

[589] See, I don't want to give anything away.

[590] No, but what is?

[591] People should go watch old boy.

[592] Juicy movie.

[593] Yeah, incredible.

[594] Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[595] We've all been there.

[596] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[597] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing, but for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[598] Like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[599] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[600] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[601] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[602] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[603] Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon Music.

[604] What's up guys?

[605] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season, and let me tell you, it's too good.

[606] and I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[607] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[608] And I don't mean just friends.

[609] I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox.

[610] The list goes on.

[611] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[612] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[613] Now, you went to a Jesuit school.

[614] I did, right?

[615] And again, you know, I'm pretty outspokenly against, is it parochial?

[616] Is that what you call it?

[617] Sure.

[618] Non -secular schools?

[619] But I've now sat with so many people that were Jesuit schooled, and they got a lot out of it.

[620] I loved it.

[621] You loved it, right?

[622] Yeah.

[623] Yeah.

[624] What were the?

[625] I loved it even at the time, but now looking back on it, I have even a greater appreciation for it.

[626] And what are the principles that they successfully stole on to you?

[627] A constant state of curiosity.

[628] They were always asking you to question your own belief system, to question authority.

[629] and to be exceptionally disciplined in doing so.

[630] Right.

[631] So you were allowed to have an opinion about anything you wanted as long as you could back that opinion up with facts.

[632] So you could come in and say, I think this is bullshit.

[633] You know, I think what you're teaching is bullshit.

[634] And I mean, obviously respectfully so.

[635] And then, you know, nine times at a 10, they would stop and say, okay, why?

[636] All right, let's go down that road.

[637] Why do you think that?

[638] And if you were lazy, that was like late laziness was just not something that was tolerated.

[639] Right.

[640] Intellectually lazy.

[641] Mm -hmm.

[642] And physically lazy.

[643] But it was just something that they just wouldn't accept because they were like, look, you have a tremendous, right now you have a tremendous amount of opportunity and privilege to be at this school because not a lot of kids get that privilege and you're not going to waste it.

[644] And if you wait, and if you do, then we'll find somebody else who wants your slot.

[645] and I remember being taught that at 14 years old.

[646] And you took it seriously despite, you know, being a bit of a contrarian.

[647] Well, yeah.

[648] Yes, because they accepted it.

[649] And I remember that on a consistent basis.

[650] Well, again, it goes back to justice.

[651] You felt like, you know what?

[652] This place is minimally just.

[653] If I, if I argue my case and I'm right, they're going to acknowledge that.

[654] Yeah.

[655] And they were, and the school had been around, has been around since 1851 or something like that.

[656] So they're used to a fresh crop of 14 -year -old punks coming in there for 150 years.

[657] Right.

[658] So it's not like, because they're new sister.

[659] And every one of them.

[660] Yeah, sure.

[661] Every one of them thinks that they've got it figured out and they're the angry young man. And, you know, and they're original and they're new and their takes fresh.

[662] And, you know, it's the same crop of 14 -year -old boys that have been coming in for that long.

[663] So they were ready for me and ready for all of us.

[664] And so anything that I would, anything I would throw out at them, they've heard a thousand times.

[665] And they had a great way of transmuting that into a lesson that I would then learn myself.

[666] Uh -huh.

[667] As opposed to them.

[668] They judoed you?

[669] As opposed to them teaching it to me. It's something that I always deeply respected about my mom is best idea one in our house.

[670] Like if she would let you argue with her.

[671] And if you, if you proved your case, it swayed her.

[672] And so I was always frustrated when I go to my dad's and like the, the lot of, would be breaking down.

[673] I'm like, no, I know.

[674] You know, I hated that feeling of like, oh, I guess this is really just because I'm younger.

[675] Yeah.

[676] There's nothing to do with justice or logic.

[677] Well, I remember very early on, I was small, really small.

[678] When I first started my freshman year of high school, I was like 87 pounds.

[679] I remember that because I was a wrestler.

[680] And so we would have to weigh ourselves.

[681] And everybody's there trying to cut weight to get down to 103.

[682] And I'm trying to add weight to get to 103.

[683] So I was really small.

[684] And because of that height, 5 -1, 5 -2.

[685] So you're like my wife's size.

[686] Oh, it's teeny, teeny, yes.

[687] And that doesn't fly for a 13 - or 14 -year -old boy.

[688] So I went, instead of being like timid, I went the opposite direction and became a loudmouth.

[689] Like, I just became like an intolerable asshole because I was like, this is my defense mechanism, right?

[690] This is how I'm going to survive.

[691] Yeah.

[692] And so that permeated through my head.

[693] entire life socially, certainly with my parents, and then also in school.

[694] And I remember this one teacher who then subsequently became my favorite teacher, but very early on, I said something, you know, said some kind of crack.

[695] And he looked at me and he said, you know, Mr. McEloney, your insecurity is no excuse for your hubris.

[696] And he walked away.

[697] And I was like, first of all, I didn't even understand what that meant.

[698] I'd never heard the word hubris before.

[699] Right.

[700] But it stuck with me and I was like, I know what insecurity meant and I know what the tone meant.

[701] So I left and I asked somebody else like, what does hubris mean?

[702] And as it was explained to me, I'm like, this guy just basically told me, like he just picked me apart in one sentence and laid it out.

[703] And and I didn't get in trouble, but I was admonished in a way that didn't call me out in front of an entire class.

[704] It didn't abuse me. Also, even if they heard, no one else would have got it.

[705] Exactly.

[706] And also, it was very specific to me. which was like, I know why you're acting like this.

[707] That's an incredibly precise way to sum you up in three words.

[708] I mean, that's, that's incredible.

[709] Yeah.

[710] Obviously, he had experience.

[711] Absolutely.

[712] So it wasn't the first time that he had met a 14, you know, a 14 year old punk who thought he.

[713] So was bummed out that he wasn't 5 .8.

[714] Yeah.

[715] And then at 5 .8, that would have been a dream.

[716] So it was like those kinds of things that I would take to heart and then recognize like, I would always just come back to that where I would go, okay, so this.

[717] Where is this coming from?

[718] Why is this behavior?

[719] I still do it to this day.

[720] I say, okay, well, I'm feeling like this or I said this or I treated, I treated this person in this circumstance a very specific way.

[721] Why did I do that?

[722] What is that, is that coming from ego?

[723] Is that coming from insecurity?

[724] Is that coming from because I lack, I feel lack in somewhere?

[725] Yeah, because what's so crazy is that I'm sure in ninth grade prior to him saying that it probably hadn't occurred to you that that was motivating all your behavior.

[726] No, I wasn't that.

[727] I mean, you probably knew that self -aware.

[728] felt shorter than everyone and insecure.

[729] But I doubt you connected the dots that then you then behaved a specific way in response to that.

[730] Yeah.

[731] Or even if I did, it was in a way that I thought, well, other people wouldn't recognize that.

[732] They would just think I'm a tough guy or that I'm the cool guy or I'm the funny guy or whatever.

[733] It wasn't like, oh, no, it's because you are terrified.

[734] And that's why you're acting this way.

[735] Yes.

[736] And all of a sudden, somebody illuminates that for you.

[737] not only that you know it, but they know it and everybody else knows it.

[738] So you can continue with that behavior, which I'm sure I did to a certain extent.

[739] But along the way, it's already been, now it's because it's been introduced.

[740] You can't unhear that.

[741] Right.

[742] Every time you would act that way, you were at least semi aware of like, well, I'm doing that fucking thing.

[743] You said I was doing.

[744] Yes.

[745] And because I'm 14, 15, 16 all the way through high school, it's not like all of a sudden, oh, wow, I had this like epiphany in my life change.

[746] It's just that it's just that that began the, evolution, you know, process.

[747] And I'm still going through now, but at least it started at an early age.

[748] Yeah.

[749] And then was compounding that?

[750] So you also have the unique story that your mother and father got divorced.

[751] Yes.

[752] And did they specifically get divorced because your mother knew she was a lesbian or did they, what's the order?

[753] Of course everyone knows they're a lesbian.

[754] Well, I don't even, my mother wouldn't even consider herself a lesbian.

[755] Oh, okay.

[756] She would not say that she's gay.

[757] She would say, Mary, her, my stepmother, her wife of 40 years, she's gay as hell.

[758] Oh.

[759] But my mother is not.

[760] She fell in love with Mary.

[761] Oh, interesting.

[762] And so.

[763] So she'll say like, I'm not attracted to all women.

[764] I just, I'm in love with Mary.

[765] She would say I fall in love, I fall in love with people.

[766] I fell in love with your father.

[767] Yeah.

[768] And then I fell in love with Mary.

[769] And so in terms of - Again, like Caitlin's dad, kind of 40 years ahead, it was a binary option 40 years ago.

[770] Yeah.

[771] You're gay or you're straight.

[772] That's right.

[773] And now she kind of sounds more like what a young person today would sound like.

[774] Yeah.

[775] Well, and she and because, yeah, I mean, she was, she grew up in a very oppressive, well, what wasn't oppressive in the time that she was growing up in terms of the gay community.

[776] Yeah.

[777] And gay.

[778] Yeah.

[779] In a very blue collar section of Catholic section of South Philadelphia.

[780] It must have been tremendously difficult.

[781] So in terms of a timeline, it's really funny because my father, Let's see, we celebrated there.

[782] I call my dad and they're all really close.

[783] So I saw my dad and my mother.

[784] Yeah, I've been at events where they're all there.

[785] Oh, yeah.

[786] There was a period of my dad went through a second divorce and moved in with them.

[787] Oh my God.

[788] This is so exciting.

[789] I love that everyone just stayed cool with each other and didn't fucking burn bridges.

[790] Well, it goes back to my father being just an incredible human being because I, because my mom essentially left for a while.

[791] Okay.

[792] To go figure her shit out.

[793] At what age?

[794] for you.

[795] I was in, let's see, I must have been nine.

[796] Okay.

[797] My sister was eight.

[798] My brother was six or seven.

[799] So that, you know, look, that was tremendously difficult for us.

[800] I can only imagine how hard it must have been for her.

[801] Yeah.

[802] Having kids now, but knowing that it was impossible not, not to.

[803] Right.

[804] She's going to die.

[805] She's going to, it's just not going to, it's just not going to work.

[806] and it's going to, it's just, she's just not going to be happy and therefore none of us will be happy.

[807] So she leaves for a little bit.

[808] She's putting on her, her oxygen mask in the airplane before she puts yours on.

[809] Exactly.

[810] Yeah.

[811] Which is a very healthy way to view it.

[812] I would feel very abandoned and resentful against her because I'm shallow.

[813] Well, of course, there's a part of me that is still, that's still there that feels that, right?

[814] Like, you can't really run away from the nine -year -old that's still locked inside.

[815] Well, I think you and I, too, have a similar approach with women in the past, which is like, Like, I'm out in a second.

[816] Like, that's kind of my, my nuclear option is like, I'm pretty good at going, I'm out and I'll just cut the core.

[817] And I think some of that.

[818] Well, yeah, I mean, so that could have been very easy for my father to do, who was presented with the scenario, hey, I'm leaving and you got to take care of the kids because I got to go figure my shit out.

[819] So he said, what are you going to do?

[820] he said, okay.

[821] And to his incredible credit, she comes back, of course, and says, okay, I've figured this out.

[822] How long was that?

[823] Well, that's, that's what's strange, because to me, we all have different.

[824] We all have different recollections of what, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, a very long time.

[825] Of course, when you're a kid, everything feels, it's, time is expanded.

[826] Um, so it felt like a tremendous amount of time.

[827] And I don't really know the exact timeline and they don't really, we I haven't really sat down to discuss it.

[828] But my father said, okay, the kids need a relationship with their mother.

[829] Let's figure it out.

[830] Let's work it out.

[831] What do you need?

[832] What do you think is going to work?

[833] And that's what we wound up doing.

[834] He's very pragmatic.

[835] Uh -huh.

[836] And so did the solution involve her staying in the house, but in a separate room?

[837] No, she moved in with Mary like.

[838] Oh, in that time, she knew Mary.

[839] Okay.

[840] Okay, so that's, this is the, this is actually the funniest part of the story.

[841] So, uh, many years later, in fact, like 30 years later, uh, I call my dad and I say, I, we got to get a gift for mom and Mary.

[842] It's their anniversary is coming up.

[843] And he's like, oh, yeah, you know, I went in on that because they're, again, they're closer.

[844] And I said, yeah, you know, it's a big one because it's their, it's their 30th anniversary, you know, in March.

[845] And they're, they're at their, they're celebrating the time that they, you know, the first, time that they like fell in love which I don't know what that exactly that meant and my dad goes no no no that that's that's not right and I go yeah yeah no they said it's the third it's their 30th anniversary goes no that's impossible it doesn't and I see him like go through like the math in his head and he's like oh wait now really quick is he finding out that it was way sooner or later well that they were married they were still married and that the timeline for him was much a lot of overlap yes but of course it's now 30 years in the rear rear mirror and he thinks it's hilarious Which, of course, I thought it was hilarious.

[846] Right, right.

[847] My dad's been...

[848] No, it must not...

[849] 25 at best.

[850] That's at best.

[851] Okay.

[852] You know, that this had been going on for quite a while.

[853] Did she work with Mary?

[854] Now, again, these are people in their 20s.

[855] I mean, like, so it's...

[856] In their 20s, in the 80s in Philadelphia.

[857] Yes.

[858] In the late 20s, it's like, I can't imagine.

[859] I can't imagine what that's like.

[860] Well, first of all, I can't even imagine.

[861] I mean, three kids in my 20s.

[862] I would have been the shittiest parent imaginable.

[863] Yeah.

[864] Yeah, my patience, I just got patience like five years ago.

[865] Yeah.

[866] And they were sending, and my father figured out a way to send me to this Jesuit, to send us to this Jesuit school, which was incredibly expensive.

[867] Yeah.

[868] What did your dad do?

[869] He's in social services.

[870] Yeah, so he's not crushing.

[871] No. He took on a bunch of dad.

[872] He had to take on another job.

[873] He took on a second job.

[874] What a fucking saint.

[875] He's, he's incredible.

[876] See, I now I'm obsessed with his dad.

[877] Yeah, but that's better.

[878] Because normally it's women's dad, so this is good.

[879] Oh, you think there's some kind of perversion?

[880] Okay, you think there's a perversion at play.

[881] Yeah.

[882] So I'm wondering, how well known was your scenario in your neighborhood at your school?

[883] How many people knew that your mother lived with another woman?

[884] It was funny.

[885] There was a period in which we were sort of in denial to a certain extent.

[886] It wasn't like that we were like, oh, this isn't happening.

[887] it was like oh mom has a roommate mom has a roommate she moved we knew we knew that they were divorced and then she has a roommate yeah and um and it was just something that we didn't really like talk about and then um and mom probably in like eighth grade or something like that and i remember i was with a big group of my friends and i just said i don't know why or for whatever reason i decided this was going to be the time that i was going to like bring it up to my friends and i remember there's a bunch of them like eight or eight of them there that's a pretty big group And I said, you know, I think that my mom is gay.

[888] And my one friend, Connor, said, yeah, no shit.

[889] And I was like, oh.

[890] Oh, you guys all know.

[891] And they're like, she lives with a woman.

[892] Yeah.

[893] And then I realized like they didn't care.

[894] So I didn't care.

[895] And then from that point forward, I mean, that was really it.

[896] I mean, all through high school, none of my friends.

[897] You know, so much of your identity is.

[898] Were you friends with the toughest group in your school?

[899] Yeah.

[900] I mean, you know, like those, these were not people that, you know, it just, it just felt like people never really.

[901] I've met a few of these lugs and I like all of them.

[902] Yeah, they're good.

[903] Like just in Minneapolis last year, I met.

[904] Who's the surgeon?

[905] Joe Dwyer.

[906] He's, Joe Dwyer, what?

[907] Okay, so Joe Dwyer.

[908] Is he in the mix?

[909] So, oh, yeah.

[910] Well, my freshman year of high school, he was the 103 pound national wrestling champion.

[911] So I was, like, wrestling him.

[912] Okay.

[913] And he was decimating, decimating me. But he was like, he's one of the toughest people I've ever met in my entire life.

[914] That was like the thing about fighting.

[915] Monica, this guy, 100 % looks like he, and this is no, I'm in love with this guy.

[916] But he looks like he's working on the back of a sanitation truck.

[917] Okay.

[918] And he's one of the best hand surgeons in Philadelphia.

[919] Yeah.

[920] He's very successful.

[921] But he likes to party and go to football games.

[922] I mean, he's a good time.

[923] Yeah, he really, he breaks the stereotype.

[924] Yes, yeah.

[925] Well, he was always, see, the wrestlers are always the sneaky toughest guys in the bar, right?

[926] Or like at the high school party, you know, he's, he was small, 103 pounds.

[927] And I would see him mall people because there would be these big tough guys from other schools and they would see this little guy and they would be like, okay, we're going to pick a fight with these guys.

[928] And we'd be like, you know, send out your best.

[929] And, you know, they would send out, you know, Goliath, and we would send out Achilles, you know, or David.

[930] And I'm mixing my mitts up.

[931] And so, and he would go out there and just slay the giant, I mean, in minutes and be drinking and Natty Ice.

[932] There's few feelings like that.

[933] When you're young and you do send out your best, ours was Jack Keefe.

[934] He was Aaron and I's best friend in junior high, and he was so unbelievably tough.

[935] And we go to this place, Camp Dearborn.

[936] and it was all adults.

[937] This is amazing.

[938] I feel like you and I, this is so sad.

[939] We have told each other every fight story that is.

[940] I can tell you, I can tell five fight stories that you, that you were personally in.

[941] Oh, really?

[942] Yeah, I know this story.

[943] I know, because he was kind of small, but he did like an uppercut that he knocked like a six foot three dude out who was like 2 .10 or something.

[944] And he just, and we were 13 and he beat him arm wrestling and then the guy wouldn't pay.

[945] and then he called he made fun of his weight and then it was just lights out and I just remember thinking oh one of our friends is a superhero like we have a superhero in the group we can go fuck with adults we can go anywhere we want in this town and Jack's there and we're safe it was just the most amazing feeling that's a special kind of capital in high school yeah but that's supposed to go away and like it and it has right in so many ways but it also kind of hasn't well I get in his thing this is this is one of the con we I have an ongoing, like I can just chisel away at a couple different topics in my house with my wife.

[946] And now I've ensnared Monica into a lot of these.

[947] And I just can't find any traction.

[948] And one of them is this.

[949] I try to say this to Kristen.

[950] I said there's something about the fact that we're all living in a very civil way.

[951] We're moving around the city and we're following the rules.

[952] But at any moment, the law of the jungle can come out.

[953] And it does from time to time.

[954] From time to time.

[955] I'll see these little agents with these huge egos.

[956] flipping a guy off at a street light and just going agro the way they treat other people in their office and all of a sudden this guy goes oh guess what motherfucker not playing by the rules and he's out of his car and I go oh again I guess it's the justice thing but something about it I do like that no matter what you achieve there's this little subtext there's this little rumbling of the jungle still out there.

[957] Yeah well that's what I think is the biggest difference between a lot of East Coast cities and say Los Angeles which is that I see a lot more aggression from male aggression, obviously, in Los Angeles, tough guy attitudes in Los Angeles than I ever did in Philadelphia or New York.

[958] And I think a lot of that is because we're locked in our little steel box and everybody thinks that they're protected in some way.

[959] But in New York, you're not.

[960] You're walking the streets together.

[961] Yeah.

[962] And, you know, I like to think that maybe I hope, and this is the, this is the better angels of our nature maybe, but that it's that, that the, the the proximity to another human being reminds you of their humanity.

[963] And so you have a certain level of compassion or empathy for them.

[964] Mm -hmm.

[965] And I think that there's probably some level of truth to that, but I also think it's fear, which is, man, if I push this guy, if I cut this person off in the street, there's a chance he might punch me in the back of my head.

[966] As opposed to, in a car, I can drive away real fast.

[967] Yeah.

[968] And so you don't have that empathy and you have that false security.

[969] And so the tough guy comes out.

[970] and then you lash out like a child.

[971] I mean like a child.

[972] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[973] It's basically like Twitter.

[974] And we're back to the masculinity.

[975] Absolutely.

[976] And I just want to state for the record, I think utopia and where we're heading towards, like you have two boys.

[977] I'm very grateful I don't have boys because I would wrestle so hard with this stuff.

[978] At some point, I've got to leave behind the blue color Michigan roots where you did solve things that way.

[979] I don't think violence should ever be the solution to something.

[980] Yet if I had a young, boy who was getting bullied at school and he was it was ruining his life it would be hard for me not to go all right well here's what's got to happen you got a punch first guy who lands the first punch 90 % times going to win you got to be that guy like it would be I don't know how I would navigate that I'm very grateful that I don't have to why I don't think maybe they'll be in that scenario but have you thought about that like you you have the boys doing jiu jitsu yes yeah I haven't doing Jiu -Jitsu, but that...

[981] Does that feel like a safe compromise?

[982] Like, yes, it does to me. I mean, but, but, but, but not necessarily because of like a, uh, the self -defense factor, but because it, it gives them a tremendous amount of confidence because, and that's what I always have noticed.

[983] Like the, the people that are most ready to, to devolve into that toxic male are the people who are scared or the people who are feeling insecure.

[984] Uh, and so, and so if, if you're walking around with a certain, I'll tell you the, the, the, the, the, the people, who I've noticed in my life who have the least amount of aggression out on the street and are the most secure are the MMA fighters that I know.

[985] Or Steve DeCastro.

[986] Or DeCastro is a great example.

[987] He can be benevolent at all times because he knows he can mop everyone up.

[988] He comes from a place of zero insecurity.

[989] Yes.

[990] Although I could knock him up, but that's a sight.

[991] I can't wait for him to do this because he will be listening to.

[992] I love this.

[993] He and I haven't.

[994] But yeah, so I got, so I have the boys involved in that.

[995] But, you know, I, but it's really just about confidence building and having something physical.

[996] And most importantly, I know for me, why I do it, um, is because it helps to transmute a lot of the natural aggression that I feel and the, that comes from anxiety or whatever it is.

[997] And I'm going to, I feel it.

[998] Right.

[999] So I can resist it, but that just stuffs it down.

[1000] Or I can try to get it out in some, in some way.

[1001] So that's like, exercise, any kind of exercise, but there's something very specific to jiu -jitsu that is a certain level of aggression.

[1002] It's very specific aggression with a partner who's also willing and you're not trying to hurt somebody.

[1003] There's a really cool communication that happens between you and your partner when you're rolling, right?

[1004] Yeah.

[1005] I mean, borderline spiritual.

[1006] There's something, there's like a respect for one another.

[1007] Absolutely.

[1008] Well, I can tell you that when I leave that place like an hour later there's I don't that that is the best feeling that I have throughout a day throughout yeah I mean it's um I really I know you and Ike were talking about uh pumping iron with Arnold and what he says yeah it's not quite like that right but there's something about just the release of all of that energy and you just feel um and and also that the respect that you have for the teacher the respect you have for the gym and also that there's none of that like mystical bullshit that you see in like a lot of like martial arts they got rid of that the Brazilians got rid of that it's more it's there's so much respect but it's very it's it's just very physical and and yes there is a mental it's it's also incredibly mental but it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with like like juju or spirit and no it's just about I'm does this physically work and if it does let's do let's do that it's kind of math it's kind of physics right yeah yeah it's really a thinking man's kind of yeah well it's like physical chess if once you get to a certain level which i am not leveraging and oh yeah yeah um do your boys seem to have the same gravitation towards like muscles and stuff uh no but just well they're young i mean eight and six but yeah well by eight i was starting to really like i said when did you see conan the barbarian that's yeah that was like my sexual awakening.

[1009] I didn't really.

[1010] I'll tell you honestly, I haven't really become as obsessed with the male form as I am now until my 30s, I think.

[1011] Oh, really?

[1012] I think so.

[1013] Yeah.

[1014] I don't know what, I don't know what it is or why.

[1015] You didn't love Schwarzenegger.

[1016] I mean, as much as a, yeah, but I wasn't as fascinated with their physique.

[1017] Okay.

[1018] You know, as much, I don't know.

[1019] I'm, I feel like I'm getting more and more juvenile as I as I grow older.

[1020] Sure, sure.

[1021] You're finding the time.

[1022] But my, but just this morning, uh, I was talking to my son, my, one of my favorite things in, uh, on planet Earth right now is hearing my son say, dad, I have a question.

[1023] He's just, he has so many questions.

[1024] And that's so much, like I get goosebumps when I think about it because it's so, that's like so much fun.

[1025] Because you're, you're realizing like, oh, wow.

[1026] I am, I'm the conduit to him understanding the world.

[1027] Right now.

[1028] Yeah.

[1029] Right now.

[1030] And eventually that's going to go away.

[1031] So this is, that's a tremendous responsibility in something I take very seriously.

[1032] And so I want to be very measured in the way that I'm answering him because I want to allow for him to have his own experience, but also for me to educate him in, you know, in ways.

[1033] So he said, he said, what is, what is Cambrarian mean?

[1034] And I said, Cambrarian, where did you hear that?

[1035] And he said, I heard mom call you contrarian.

[1036] Comrarian.

[1037] I said, is it contrarian?

[1038] He said, yes.

[1039] And I said, oh, that means that no matter what, no matter what I say, you will find a way to disagree with it.

[1040] And he started laughing.

[1041] And I said, why are you laughing?

[1042] He said, that sounds like fun.

[1043] And I said, yeah, it is kind of fun.

[1044] I said, do you think that you're contrarian?

[1045] He said, I want to be.

[1046] And I'm like, oh, wow, that's, like, that's, first of all, really incredibly cute.

[1047] But also that, like, he's, he's, he's, he's.

[1048] recognizing things in himself that he's like gravitated well personality traits like that's a defining personality trait yes and and what I'm noticing is that my other son is completely different completely different which to me is is like the most when I when I think about the differences between my two children it is probably the most inspiring aspect of the human spirit that I can think of that like no matter who who they are genetically and biochemically which is almost completely identical because they are the progeny of two, to the same people.

[1049] And they have essentially the same nurture as well that they could be two completely different human beings says so much about like the, I don't know, just the, the incredible complexity.

[1050] Complexity and originality of each one of us.

[1051] Yeah.

[1052] And that we are imbued with.

[1053] something that is greater than the sum of our parts.

[1054] Yeah, like, I don't think it's metaphysical or otherworldly, but they have a spirit.

[1055] Like, they, they just have some character to them, right?

[1056] Right out of the gates.

[1057] It's really wild.

[1058] And all we can do, or at least what I feel like all we can do is give them the best, give them the tools to be the best versions of themselves and allow for them to just become whatever that particular thing is.

[1059] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[1060] There's a laundry list of things I idolize about you, but one of them is this really funny thing you did.

[1061] And I didn't even see it.

[1062] I had to be told about it.

[1063] And then I went and looked up pictures of you.

[1064] Just state your observation about what happens to actors on sitcoms that annoyed you.

[1065] I had always noticed that people would get better looking as years would go by.

[1066] Actually, Friends is a great example.

[1067] Yeah, oh, yeah.

[1068] Although that was an incredibly attractive cast from the very.

[1069] very beginning but you know that all of a sudden they're now famous and rich and they have better diets and they have stylists and they care a little bit more too and they have a little bit more time and money to maybe they have better teeth all of a sudden their hair probably low lights right and and i just thought well uh our our show has always been sort of the anti -sitcom and and beyond that it wouldn't it's not realistic to the way that the characters treat themselves.

[1070] They're alcoholics and they're horrible human beings.

[1071] And if they live with that kind of stress, that they would start to look terrible.

[1072] And then beyond that, I will say a step beyond that, I found myself in the editing room one year and looking at myself in one of the shots.

[1073] And by the way, we shoot Sunny in a very specific way to where we don't light it very well.

[1074] It's kind of supposed to look crappy.

[1075] That's part of the charm.

[1076] Yeah.

[1077] And so I remember watching myself, and going at one point in the editing room, like, oh, I don't look very good.

[1078] I wonder if we should look for a different take.

[1079] And as soon as I thought that, I was instantly humiliated.

[1080] Because that's always been the opposite of what we're trying to do.

[1081] And I didn't want to fall into that trap of being, you know, look, we all, we all walk around with a certain amount of vanity.

[1082] But I try to, I try actively to destroy that with my show and to, and to create some level of, reality with like what these people would look like.

[1083] So I decided I can't do this anymore.

[1084] I'm going to look as disgusting as I can for next year.

[1085] I instantly like thought that.

[1086] And then in the off season, I'm like, how am I going to do this?

[1087] How am I going to do this without having to go through like hair and makeup?

[1088] And I thought, oh, wow, not we should all do it.

[1089] Okay.

[1090] I'm shaking.

[1091] I can only imagine how this went with Caitlin.

[1092] Incredible it would be if we all put on the whole cast like 50 pounds.

[1093] and just for the entire season and not mention it at all, how bizarre that would be.

[1094] Which, by the way, has happened in my friendship circle in Michigan at times.

[1095] We will fly, I have friends, myself included fluctuating 35, 40 pounds when we're drinking.

[1096] Of course.

[1097] So I pitch it to everybody and, and DeVito was the only one that was like, I'd do.

[1098] I'm like, no. Not you.

[1099] You will die.

[1100] You should lose 50 pounds because that would be even more.

[1101] That's how we turned that on its head.

[1102] So everybody said, no, I'm not going to do that.

[1103] So I said, would you mind if I did it?

[1104] And they said, sure.

[1105] So I put on, yeah, about 60 pounds.

[1106] Oh, my God.

[1107] That's tremendous.

[1108] Can you tell us the details of how you did that?

[1109] Yes.

[1110] You just ate everything or?

[1111] Well, originally I tried to do it as, I tried to be as healthy as possible.

[1112] So I consulted a nutritionist.

[1113] And I'm like, how can I do this in a healthy way?

[1114] And he wrote up this like program for me. And I remember trying to destroy yourself program.

[1115] On the first day, it was like, okay, your lunch will be three chicken breasts, three cups of rice and two cups of vegetables.

[1116] So I was like, all right.

[1117] So I'm like, I'm trying to muscle this down.

[1118] This is never going to work.

[1119] I can't do it.

[1120] So I go to my doctor, by the way.

[1121] So I go to my doctor and I'm like, I'm like, want to be, I want to be monitored through this whole thing.

[1122] He, just for, because I think it'd be funny.

[1123] Yeah, yeah.

[1124] He's like, okay.

[1125] So I said, okay, to be, he said, to be clear, this is not funny.

[1126] Don't do, don't do this.

[1127] This is really dangerous.

[1128] And I'm like, I'm going to do it.

[1129] So help me. And he's like, okay.

[1130] I said, what's the healthiest and safest way for me to do this?

[1131] And he said, there is no healthy way to do it.

[1132] So I went back to the nutritionist.

[1133] I said, I can't muscle this food down.

[1134] And I said, what's the caloric intake like of this particular?

[1135] meal and he was like, you know, it was like 1600 calories or something.

[1136] And he was like, so you can either do that or you can eat two Big Macs.

[1137] And I'm like, oh, okay.

[1138] So I did, so let's start doing that.

[1139] So then I had crispy cream donuts.

[1140] Every morning I would eat four of those.

[1141] And then I would have, you know, and so instead of doing it the healthy way, I did it the unhealthy way.

[1142] The fun way.

[1143] The fun way.

[1144] Yeah.

[1145] But at a certain point, it's not that fun.

[1146] Because I'm by the afternoon, I was drinking ice cream.

[1147] So I would take ice cream and I would put it out.

[1148] I would put it out on the counter in the morning and then it would melt.

[1149] And then I would put like weight gainer like into it.

[1150] And then I would drink that.

[1151] Okay.

[1152] Every day.

[1153] Go on.

[1154] And so I was drinking heavily.

[1155] That was a great excuse to drink wine.

[1156] And then and then this was the key.

[1157] This was the key.

[1158] I found out that cottage.

[1159] So it was like going.

[1160] it was going okay, but it was going like rather slowly.

[1161] And I was just like I felt like it was maybe working.

[1162] Everyone was like, we're writing to this and it's not happening, man. And I only had three months to do it.

[1163] So they're like, I don't know if this is going to work.

[1164] I don't know if it's going to work.

[1165] And then I read that cottage cheese metabolizes really slowly in your stomach.

[1166] So this particular diet was like the last thing, if you eat cottage cheese, the last thing you want to do is eat it right before you go to bed because it just, metabolizes so slowly over them.

[1167] So I was like, that's what I have to do.

[1168] So I started eating cottage cheese in the middle of the night.

[1169] So I would wake up at like 2 a .m. And I would eat this cottage cheese.

[1170] And then one week later after that, I came in on a Monday.

[1171] And I just seen the guys on a Friday.

[1172] And I came in on a Monday.

[1173] And for whatever reason, it was like I popped.

[1174] They were like, oh, okay.

[1175] It's all going to work.

[1176] It's all going to work.

[1177] This works.

[1178] And I was, yeah, I went from, yeah, about like 160 to 220.

[1179] Wow.

[1180] You know, it's so, it's so rare that two people would share this experience.

[1181] But I did the same thing for idiocracy and I didn't see a doctor.

[1182] And the part where it got a little, I guess, concerning was I go to sleep at night, wake up in the morning and I like roll over.

[1183] And I'm like, oh, something's under my back.

[1184] What's this?

[1185] And then I lift up my back and there's a Snickers wrapper and a Twix wrapper that I had eaten when I got up to pee in the middle of the night and have no memory of doing it.

[1186] I was like Homer Simpson walking by like, these are delicious.

[1187] Yeah.

[1188] And yeah, but I only gained 37 pounds.

[1189] I went from 180 to 217.

[1190] And did you have like, I was like, oh, this is great.

[1191] The whole time I'm like, oh, this is great.

[1192] I'm doing this for a roll.

[1193] And then at some point you go, wait, this is for real, though.

[1194] I'm going to have to lose this.

[1195] Well, what I was also doing, so what happened was I was seeing a lot in my gut, but it wasn't really moving around as much.

[1196] So I was like, I don't know what to do to start moving this weight around.

[1197] So I started, so I went to a trainer and I'm like, I literally want you to do the opposite of like, what if I did some like power lifting so I could get it into my ass and legs and like back and stuff?

[1198] So that's what we started doing.

[1199] Like I would go heavy, heavy, heavy weight, but do like two reps. And we would get to the point where he was like, look, he was like, I want you to, I wore a fucking one of those step, you know, like step watches.

[1200] Oh, sure, sure.

[1201] And he's like, you need to keep this number below.

[1202] So I was doing it the opposite.

[1203] And he's like, anytime you get to a set of steps, anytime you get to a set of steps, I want you to stop and move as slowly up the set of steps as you possibly get.

[1204] Don't get that heart rate.

[1205] Don't get that heart rate up under any circumstances.

[1206] So anaerobic activity is death to you.

[1207] Death.

[1208] So at any point where we were doing like, even like the heaviest of lifting, we wouldn't do more than two or three reps of anything because it was just get my heart rate up too high.

[1209] And then my doctor, my doctor was like, hey man, like, just recognize that that's probably good because you don't want that heart rate getting too high because we don't know if your body's too frisky.

[1210] Yeah.

[1211] So now I'm going in for regular checkups.

[1212] And, and it's all, this is the craziest part is that my blood pressure was fine.

[1213] My blood sugar was fine.

[1214] That's hard to believe.

[1215] But I got a fatty liver.

[1216] Ooh.

[1217] So I was like, okay, so fatty liver.

[1218] Walk me through that.

[1219] Yeah, where are we at, Doc?

[1220] And he's like, well, you know, it's not good.

[1221] First of all, again, reiterate, not funny.

[1222] Not funny.

[1223] I don't find it funny.

[1224] It's not great.

[1225] And I was like, well, how?

[1226] How long, I said, by the way, we said something about like, well, I like, I was like Christian Bale, you know, like Christian Bail goes from like 110 pounds in the machinist to Batman and he's like back and forth, back and forth.

[1227] And he goes, look, I, I, I, this guy's at Cedars and he's like, you know, Hippocratic Oath, I can't say much, but I can say this.

[1228] I know Christian Bale's doctor.

[1229] Okay.

[1230] That is not healthy.

[1231] What he's doing to himself is not like, you should.

[1232] not be looking at him as a paragon of health.

[1233] The North Star.

[1234] Yeah, the North Star.

[1235] Now, in terms of his acting ability, and I'm like, look, Doc, like, I don't need to hear it was Hollywood.

[1236] It's like, everybody's got an opinion on and I'm like, just don't give me a shit.

[1237] I just, am I healthy or not?

[1238] Also, I love that you and I both are like, I probably am not going to get to the acting level.

[1239] Let me just do the physical thing.

[1240] Yeah.

[1241] Like, I can do De Niro and Raging Bull.

[1242] I can't do the acting part, but I can fucking, minimally, I can.

[1243] Minimally, I getting the weight.

[1244] Right.

[1245] I can do the stunt.

[1246] Yes.

[1247] Yes.

[1248] You know?

[1249] So, so anyway, I wound up with a fatty liver, which then subsequently went away when I stopped.

[1250] But losing the weight was easy because I stopped.

[1251] I mean, I think I was drinking essentially almost 4 ,000 calories a day or some 3 ,800, something like that a day.

[1252] And to stop, I just stopped.

[1253] And you didn't have kids yet.

[1254] That's probably part of it.

[1255] I did.

[1256] You did?

[1257] I had a one year old, yeah.

[1258] Oh, really?

[1259] Yeah.

[1260] I got didn't interfere or anything.

[1261] Well, you know, that's the, the, the, the thing that having a child that people don't tell you, besides that it's like the most miserable thing experience that you can ever go through, which I, which I try to tell as many people as possible.

[1262] Like, it is literally the most miserable thing you can do.

[1263] It will ruin and destroy your life.

[1264] You're better at that than me. Yeah.

[1265] I brush over that.

[1266] But it's true.

[1267] Sure.

[1268] And yet.

[1269] It ruins the life you have.

[1270] Exactly.

[1271] And I think you just have to come to terms with that.

[1272] once you do, then everything is easier after that.

[1273] But again, like, look what we're circling.

[1274] So, yeah, for me, losing the life I had to be on another adventure and to be curious and, like, it's all wrapped up in like why you'd want to know what it's like to feel to be 230.

[1275] Yeah.

[1276] Like, isn't that, like, isn't there a romantic element to that whole transformation?

[1277] Sure.

[1278] Well, it's just a completely new experience.

[1279] Yes.

[1280] And it's, it's the, the pain is in the whole.

[1281] holding on to what you to what your old thing life was or an expectation of what you thought it was going to be right and once you can sort of and I find that in all aspects of my life if I can shed that then the actual thing whatever that particular thing is is always a great opportunity to experience something new yeah so anyway what they also don't the people don't tell you is that you're spending so much time at home that there's not a lot to do except drink, which I like.

[1282] Now, that's not something that you were partaking in.

[1283] I loved that.

[1284] But I'm picturing like your one -year -old pulling a knife off the counter and you can't even run to help because you can't get your heart right out.

[1285] Yeah.

[1286] Yeah, and I just sort of let him do whatever it is that he's going to do it over.

[1287] Great learning experience.

[1288] But the alcohol, honestly, was helpful because there's so much sugar.

[1289] And so I would, and because I was gaining so much weight so quickly, my tolerance was was skyrocketing too.

[1290] So I could drink a bottle and a half, two bottles of wine a night.

[1291] I was like Andre the Giant at a certain point where I'm just like putting booze back.

[1292] Sure.

[1293] And loving it.

[1294] And by the way, the strongest I've ever been in my entire life.

[1295] I was going to aim you there.

[1296] There was a point where you got really strong.

[1297] Yes.

[1298] And you fucking loved it.

[1299] Because I was always, maybe this is again why I'm now, even now more fascinated with men.

[1300] physics because when I was younger, I, I didn't hit puberty until I was like 16.

[1301] So I, I didn't have the, when all my friends were like jocks, I didn't have the ability to like create a body like that.

[1302] Right.

[1303] And then by the time I was in like my late teens and 20s, I was just smoking cigarettes and like I just didn't, I just didn't care.

[1304] Drinking coffee.

[1305] Right.

[1306] And so that not, then as I grew older and I was like, oh, wow, I can actually now maybe transform my body and Well, did you?

[1307] Yeah, I had this weird thing up until my mid -20s where I was resigned to the fact that like, oh, genetically, if I just look at my, the shepherds for three generations, we have guts.

[1308] I'm not like genetically.

[1309] I will never have a six -pack.

[1310] But then I found out that I could.

[1311] And that was like this weird breakthrough.

[1312] I'm like, oh, you actually can make your, you can turn your body into any shape that you set out to.

[1313] That felt very empowering and exciting.

[1314] That's, that's exactly right.

[1315] So that was the overwhelming feeling that, that I had throughout that process and then and then directly afterwards was oh, if I devote a tremendous amount of time and effort and energy to something, I can accomplish that goal.

[1316] I mean, you for as silly as it is, you know, I changed my body dramatically in four months and then changed it again when I lost the weight.

[1317] And because I became so strong and I was never strong before.

[1318] And I became, for whatever reason, I was, I could bench press a tremendous amount of weight, which is so sad that I, in my 30s, was so proud of how much I could bench press.

[1319] Would you tell, Caitlin, when you got home from the gym, like, what you put up?

[1320] Absolutely.

[1321] And I would take, like, videos of him and be like, look, look at this.

[1322] And she's like, honey, that's three plates.

[1323] I need to say.

[1324] But one time, one time, one time, I was at the gym.

[1325] It was in Century City.

[1326] And it's right by the Fox lot.

[1327] and at one point I was bench pressing and there was like every once in a while like because obviously women don't give a flying fuck and most men don't give a fuck but there's a repellent right but there are some men in there so at one point I like finish a set you know and I'm like grunting in the whole deal and I and and Michael Irvin do you know Michael Irvin football player okay uh Hall of Fame football player of the Dallas Cowboys walks by and he looks at me and he looks at the plates and he looks back at me and he goes damn and then kept walking and i was like that's it that's all i need that's all i needed although kately admitted to me that there was and i'm sure it would have expired but that she did she got into it a little bit she liked when you were a big strong hog yeah i was beefed i had like a thick a real thick frame and i but i was muscle like a wardhog you were just like a super powerful fat like a yeah like a very old obese like pit bull yeah you know but like but ready to die not not that sinewy muscle you know that like no no no one last fight left in him one last fight yeah it's gonna kill him yeah he's gonna win but he's gonna die an hour after the fight yeah so that but it was it was uh it was just it was an overall and i so i felt great and i think i felt So can I just suggest that it's really, you and I are both pretty drawn to control.

[1328] Yes.

[1329] Right?

[1330] That's 100 % it.

[1331] And that's really what I got.

[1332] It's euphoric to be able to actually control what you eat, how often you work out, how many reps, how many sets, how much weight, all this shit.

[1333] Yeah.

[1334] It's just all control.

[1335] Well, that's why I guess I was a little reticent to talk about discipline because I feel like they're.

[1336] That's a virtue when it's really rooted in.

[1337] Yeah.

[1338] And I, and I, and I, because I talk to a lot of people about, about it.

[1339] Um, because, because, because, because, yes, it's looked at as a virtue and I, I, I oftentimes will look at it as, as, as a vice, you know, well, selfish, ultimately.

[1340] Absolutely.

[1341] And, and it's about, it's, it's, it, so much of it is rooted in me controlling my environment.

[1342] Uh -huh.

[1343] And the, and I, and I recognize that I can't control my environment.

[1344] So what I, what I can control is my self.

[1345] And I think that's why so many of the things you'll lay out for me, like, some system you've enacted in your life.

[1346] It's so appealing to me always.

[1347] I'm like, oh, yeah, there's so many.

[1348] Even when you took me in your basement, I almost cream my gene.

[1349] So, like, look at this physical area you've constructed that is a single purpose, which is to, like, change your body, whatever direction you want to go.

[1350] There's that area for that.

[1351] There's this way, that machine.

[1352] And I'm like, yeah, it went way beyond just the appeal of the room.

[1353] I was like, yes, this is a chamber for control.

[1354] You get in here and it's like clock in.

[1355] When I walk into that room, it's hard to describe.

[1356] I'll do it like in the middle of the night, I'll be like, oh, I forgot to turn the light off or something.

[1357] I'll run, I'll like run down there and I'll feel something.

[1358] I don't know what it is.

[1359] I feel it's like a rush of adrenaline or it smells very specific, you know, not bad.

[1360] It's like a rubber, yeah, that rubber smell.

[1361] And I'm like, I don't know what, when did I be, and it's not like I'm a meathead because I'm not.

[1362] All right.

[1363] I'm certainly not athletic.

[1364] It's just there's something about, there's some, it's just control.

[1365] Yeah.

[1366] It's a vice.

[1367] Believe me, it's not something I'm proud of.

[1368] Wait, I want to say something really quick because I think it's okay and healthy to recognize that a bad quality has a counter good quality.

[1369] That it's not one thing, right?

[1370] So you have control issues, but the good side of that is discipline, which I think is a good thing when you're thinking about your bad qualities.

[1371] is that if you'd removed that bad quality, you'd remove a good quality, too, that most bad qualities have a...

[1372] Double -edged sword.

[1373] Yeah, it's a coin.

[1374] Sure, yeah, yeah.

[1375] I mean, yes, I mean, in the same way that, like, fear...

[1376] I mean, you can look at it, yeah, at anything.

[1377] Like, anything taken to the extreme can be dangerous.

[1378] Yeah.

[1379] Right?

[1380] So, like, I mean, there's...

[1381] It's okay to have a healthy amount of fear or a healthy amount of insecurity or a healthy amount of, you know, even confidence or aggression to a certain extent.

[1382] You know, it's just when it's, then, then, you know, there's aspects of that, obviously, that are very detrimental.

[1383] I don't think that day has passed since you showed me your basement gym that I haven't thought about it.

[1384] Like we left there and I said to Kristen, that little trip may have just cost me a lot of money because I need a little area like that in my life that just perfectly square.

[1385] Everything's in its place.

[1386] Well, everything, there's a slot for everything.

[1387] And there's a jihitsu area, right?

[1388] And so to me, and here's another thing that I love about jiu jitism.

[1389] to or any, like, discipline like it, it's insanely humbling, insanely humbling.

[1390] So when I think about that particular space, what I think about isn't, oh, I think about all the times where I've, like, rolled with somebody there where I've, like, won.

[1391] It's actually all the times that I've gotten the shit kicked out of me. And there's something really liberating about that, right?

[1392] Which is, like, it doesn't matter.

[1393] You can try and control, I can control my own body when I'm lifting weights, let's just say, or running or trying to gain weight or lose weight.

[1394] But when I'm rolling with, say, Steve DeCastro, you're fucked.

[1395] I'm fucked.

[1396] No matter what, I can't control him.

[1397] All I can do is try to keep, try to keep up.

[1398] Yeah, you broke my ribs, just play fighting.

[1399] I guess something interesting about failure when it happens and you can like own it in a weird way is our fear of events in our heads are so uncomfortable.

[1400] And then when you actually experience the thing you're terrified of and you recognize all.

[1401] I'm still here and everything's still fine.

[1402] There's there is something like I had this moment when we were testing chips.

[1403] Panay and I went down this wormhole or mid test.

[1404] We decided that we were going to test like a 40 and foul.

[1405] We're like this audience hates this.

[1406] It's over.

[1407] We will never get to make a movie again.

[1408] We've embarrassed ourselves.

[1409] There was five minutes of us chatting about how bad we shit the bed.

[1410] And then there was about 25 minutes of euphoria.

[1411] where we're like, oh my God, it's over.

[1412] We're done.

[1413] We never have to try to get approval again.

[1414] Here we are.

[1415] We did as bad as you can do.

[1416] There was some bizarre elation that accompanied the huge failure that I was just like, oh, I've finally been exposed for the thing I was afraid I was going to be, and I'm going to continue on in life, and that's going to be fine.

[1417] And then we tested higher than we had, and we were completely wrong.

[1418] And then you were back in, you were back in a cycle.

[1419] They love us.

[1420] Oh, I validated.

[1421] My bucket is flat.

[1422] once again.

[1423] You have boys.

[1424] I'm now around a lot of little boys as we go to play dates or whatever.

[1425] And this is no excuse for how we behave.

[1426] I'm not making an excuse for how men behave.

[1427] But when you're around little boys and you recognize what they're just programmed to do, it's pretty stark.

[1428] It's pretty obvious.

[1429] We have some wiring that makes us want to destroy everything and conquer another boy.

[1430] It's just in there.

[1431] And our society, thank God, has evolved so far away from our useful wiring.

[1432] But you brought up earlier that you need that, you need to be able to let that aggression out.

[1433] And I just wonder, as we evolve and as we should evolve, and our expectations get higher and higher of men as they should.

[1434] I don't hear anyone proposing how we deal with this kind of bad wiring and this poison we have in our body, which is testosterone.

[1435] We're not going to get a new biology because our culture is evolved.

[1436] And so isn't it a little imperative that we have some kind of outlets and we have something to do with this programming to fight another fucking group of males coming in to steal everyone's kids?

[1437] Yes, and finding ways to transmute it.

[1438] Yeah, right?

[1439] Because we can pretend like it's not there.

[1440] Yeah, I just, that's what I'm nervous about is that we're going to pretend that it's not there.

[1441] Yeah.

[1442] Yeah.

[1443] I mean, I'm, I'm, um, I'm doing my best to recognize that it's, that I have those feelings and that I know that my boys will have those feelings and that we have to figure out ways in which we can, in which we can, uh, use that and, and change it into something else.

[1444] Judo the energy.

[1445] Turn it into something productive.

[1446] Yes.

[1447] Because it is.

[1448] I think people need to be thinking about what that is.

[1449] Like obviously sports and stuff is great for kids, but I wasn't into team sports.

[1450] So I was out, you know, winning glory in a car parking lot doing donuts or whatever the hell I did or fighting, whatever the thing was.

[1451] Yeah, I think we need some kind of constructive.

[1452] You about to weigh in, Monica?

[1453] No, I was just going to, but we also don't know because this is the first generation of kids that are going to be.

[1454] have their parents really be cognizant of what they're telling their boys, I think.

[1455] Like, we haven't had that up until now where boys are being fed a very specific moral instruction on what to do with women, right?

[1456] Or no?

[1457] Well, you'd hope, but I don't know how.

[1458] And my even greater fear is that you're just saying to the boy, don't ever do this, this, this and this.

[1459] And you're not going, but look, dude, I know how you're feeling.

[1460] Like from the time you turn 12 to 18, you're thinking about coming in some way or another uncontrollably.

[1461] And just to assume that this unformed brain is going to take in that info and it's going to affect their horniness or something.

[1462] It's just, you know.

[1463] Yeah.

[1464] But I think we need a more radical solution than just you shouldn't do this.

[1465] To me, it just feels like telling young boys who are capital.

[1466] Catholic not to masturbate.

[1467] It's like all you're doing is setting up some scenario where they're going to be like guilt ridden and shamed.

[1468] For being what they are again.

[1469] Yeah, we're actually going through this with our son right now where we've noticed a marked difference in his behavior when we just in the way that we respond to his freakouts.

[1470] So for example, for a very long time, he wakes up.

[1471] He says, I don't want to go to school.

[1472] I hate it.

[1473] I don't want to go.

[1474] I don't want to go.

[1475] and we're like, all right, great, you got to go to school.

[1476] Everybody's got to school, tough shit.

[1477] You know, like, come on, man. Like, that's just the reality of life.

[1478] And so then he would react accordingly, right?

[1479] Being contrarian.

[1480] And he would fight along the way, but then eventually he would go to school.

[1481] But just like the simple, and we wound up talking to a therapist.

[1482] And at one point, the therapist was like, always be on his side.

[1483] No matter what, don't invalidate what he's saying.

[1484] So, for example, if he says, I really want to.

[1485] I feel like I want to punch Leo right now I would normally that's our youngest son I would normally say you can't hit no that's wrong don't hit Leo yeah uh and then it would just build and build and build and what the therapist was saying was like no he knows he's not supposed to hit leo what what the best way to handle that is to say oh wow that's that's a strong feeling I know what that feels like that feels terrible that that must make you feel like Like, that you're, I mean, obviously, you're very angry.

[1486] Like, something's making you super angry and, and, and that makes you want to punch something.

[1487] I get that.

[1488] I get that.

[1489] And then literally walking away.

[1490] And I'm like, well, how's he going to learn that he shouldn't be hitting his little brother?

[1491] Yeah.

[1492] And, and the therapist is like, he knows that he's not supposed to hit his little brother.

[1493] What he's telling you is, I feel something.

[1494] And he wants God, which is essentially me in this scenario since he's eight years old, to tell him it's okay to feel something, but what it's not okay to do is then react the way that you're pitching the way that you're going to react.

[1495] And since he already knows that because you've laid that foundation, just try that and see what happens.

[1496] And I shit you not.

[1497] The kid, I mean, like within a couple of weeks of just almost treating every scenario like that.

[1498] I'm going to always be on your side.

[1499] I am going to validate how you're feeling by saying I understand or even just recognizing it.

[1500] I will never validate.

[1501] your action, right, based on what you, you know, that, based on how you're feeling.

[1502] I'm going to, I'm feeling this.

[1503] So therefore, I'm going to do that.

[1504] That's not okay.

[1505] And that and, but, but, but it can't, we can't start to transmute unless we're at least validating what's going on inside of them.

[1506] So I think that's what you're saying, which is right.

[1507] Recognizing that, yes, uh, it is, it is, it is not right.

[1508] And it is wholly inappropriate for a lot of these men to be acting the way that we are all acting.

[1509] But we have to recognize that we are certainly feeling some of these things.

[1510] There are biological imperatives that are inside of us.

[1511] And what we need to do is recognize that and figure out ways in which we can transmute it.

[1512] Yeah.

[1513] I don't know.

[1514] I don't know.

[1515] Someone's probably got some strategy out there that we don't know about.

[1516] So you, you mean it's not, you mean it's not like a couple of a bunch of actors like that are going to figure it not.

[1517] Well, I wouldn't put it past us.

[1518] So according to Twitter, we have lots of opinions.

[1519] too many too many you need to stick to acting that's what we're told um you so you got you threw on i agree i agree on that by the way i was just having this conversation on saturday okay i think we should stick to our to our acting you do you do i think i agree with you 50 % and disagree with you 50 % go ahead and tell me why well well first of all i think it's counterproductive well first of all it depends on the messaging that you're trying to get through on the on the the social media app i certainly would not advocate for any time that it's a message of inclusion uh or love or you're not alone or i'm with you or uh there's a community out there for you that is open arms uh and putting that message out into the world and so that an individual can read that and accept that i think that's wholly positive and i completely understand that and i feel like that is beneficial uh to the I think any kind of sticking your flag in the ground and saying this is how I feel about any particular subject and this is how you should feel because it's right, I think is ultimately, whether it's right or wrong, I think is counterproductive.

[1520] And I think it doesn't work.

[1521] I think it's as evidence over the last few years of a lot of people in our community who have made their opinion's abundantly clear.

[1522] Well, almost singular they've made their opinions.

[1523] Yes.

[1524] And so the argument, right, on the other side is you have somebody say, hey, man, you're an actor, you're not, you're not entitled to an opinion.

[1525] A political.

[1526] I don't want to hear.

[1527] Right.

[1528] And I think what we tend to do is we hear that and we say, well, wait a second, I'm an American, right?

[1529] I'm entitled to an opinion just like you.

[1530] And I ultimately, I don't think that the criticism that's coming from that particular person.

[1531] is, is you are not, that your opinion isn't validated.

[1532] I think what's, I think what's underlying is what they're saying is you're breaking the social contract.

[1533] We're already giving you the platform.

[1534] We're watching your movies.

[1535] We're watching your TV shows.

[1536] We're listening to your music.

[1537] We, we, that's - You're our escape from all this.

[1538] Yes.

[1539] Or, and or if you're changing hearts and minds, I feel like it's incumbent upon us to do it with in the platform that we have been, uh, given by that by said community like do it in your show do it in my show do it in your music do it on you know do it in your writing do it in your acting uh i feel like way more um has been done for the let's say the gay civil rights movement uh through through willing willing grace right you know uh then or modern family then has anybody on twitter telling you that you have to vote for gay marriage because there's some moral imperative.

[1540] And I think it's because we have the ability to change hearts and minds through empathy and as opposed to...

[1541] And story.

[1542] Yes, in story, as opposed through teaching lessons.

[1543] And what winds up happening is that I think people feel like, wait a second, it's unfair that we've been, that we give you this platform to tell your stories.

[1544] And then you take advantage of this other platform by also telling us how you feel all the time, but more importantly, how we're supposed to feel.

[1545] So do we have the right to do that?

[1546] Of course we have the right to do that.

[1547] But at the end of the day, is it going to actually benefit the culture?

[1548] Or is it going to continue to create a larger divide?

[1549] And I think it's the latter.

[1550] Well, I definitely, so the part, I agree with a lot of that.

[1551] My own personal reasons for, I used to tweet a ton of political stuff.

[1552] And then post -election, I stopped because I just asked myself the very simple question, is my voice needed?

[1553] So I felt very compelled to be very vocal about gay marriage.

[1554] And Kristen and I led rallies and we didn't get married until it was legal.

[1555] And we felt like that cause needed our voice.

[1556] And I didn't see a ton of like male actors who had maybe like a dude following like I had.

[1557] like I also the other person I'll argue that's done more for gay rights than anyone else is Howard Stern because it doesn't take much for Kristen to convince her friends of that they already think that way now Howard's audience did not think that way but they look up to him and he had a rare opportunity to go no you guys trust me listen this is fucking nuts and so in that case I threw his platform through his platform now granted his platform is saying his opinion so it's already different but I do that think in general you're right that you're not convincing a single person on the other side.

[1558] It's just not happening.

[1559] If you could show me some data that that you are winning over people, I would be probably more in favor of it.

[1560] But I just think you're further entrenching your own, the people in your silo already and giving more ammo to the people on the other side.

[1561] So yeah, I'm half agreeing with you.

[1562] But, yeah, there are things that I will get involved with just because I don't think anyone else is saying it.

[1563] And I feel some compulsion to, because I do have a megaphone.

[1564] And I want to use it to say, hey, give money to kids in foster care, you know.

[1565] Well, sure.

[1566] I mean, yes.

[1567] I mean, there are certain things.

[1568] Yeah.

[1569] I was a low blow.

[1570] That was a cheat.

[1571] That was a cheat.

[1572] I take that back.

[1573] Yeah, I guess I'm speaking more.

[1574] I'm thinking more specifically like in political matters.

[1575] Yeah.

[1576] Yeah.

[1577] Yeah.

[1578] And I also don't think, I certainly don't think there's anything wrong with donating your time, efforts, energy, and money to causes that you believe in.

[1579] Of course, I do that.

[1580] We all, we all do that.

[1581] I guess I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I guess I'm responding specifically to, to Twitter and Facebook.

[1582] Yeah.

[1583] And just the espousing of your beliefs.

[1584] And every day, you know, reading how how, how you feel, not you, but how set actor feels about.

[1585] Kavanaugh or feels about Donald Trump or feels about I just at the end of the day it doesn't matter whether it's it's right or wrong it's is it effective what are you trying to do and the point I really agree with you on is that we have the ultimate weapon which is the most powerful thing for humans is story and many of us have figured out how to do that so why not use this incredibly powerful tool a tweet is not a story it doesn't have a hero and an antagonist and all these things and beginning, middle and end.

[1586] So, yeah, it's just not nearly as powerful.

[1587] Use your big heavy Excalibur sword and tell a story that can move the needle.

[1588] Ultimately, it just feels like it's more, it's just more effective.

[1589] And then, and then, I don't know, sometimes I wind up talking to people and it feels like, well, what?

[1590] Are you doing this for them and the cause?

[1591] Are you doing it because it makes you feel better because it makes you feel more powerful, right?

[1592] Because I feel like a lot of us feel so powerless right now.

[1593] And we say, I don't know what to do.

[1594] I don't know what to do.

[1595] And so therefore I'm just going to espouse my belief in, because I hope that that converts some people.

[1596] Yeah.

[1597] And even though you know that it doesn't, but it makes you feel good.

[1598] You get that little, that little response, you know.

[1599] And even some of the negative response that you might get, it might like click into that.

[1600] Uh, reward center.

[1601] Yeah, yeah.

[1602] Yeah.

[1603] The blinking bells.

[1604] Well, I do want to say this season of Sunny, it's currently out, right?

[1605] Yes.

[1606] And yet again, you did something spectacular, which is this time you went the opposite direction and you got incredibly in shape.

[1607] Yeah.

[1608] Like you should be in a Marvel movie.

[1609] Yeah.

[1610] And I had the pleasure of working out with you in my far less impressive basement.

[1611] And I do think I got a little contact high from your pheromones while we were lifting.

[1612] Yeah.

[1613] Because you really did it.

[1614] And in fact, I first saw the physique unveiled at your pool.

[1615] Mm -hmm.

[1616] And on my way to the pool, I was like, I feel pretty much.

[1617] pretty good about swimming today.

[1618] I'm in pretty good shape.

[1619] And then I saw you and I immediately said you've got a lot of work to do.

[1620] You showed up to a gunfight with a stick.

[1621] Yeah.

[1622] Yeah.

[1623] You really did it.

[1624] It's really something.

[1625] I want 100%.

[1626] Yeah.

[1627] I want 100%.

[1628] Yeah.

[1629] I mean, and my favorite part, I don't know how to talk about this without kind of spoiler alert, spoiling it.

[1630] But the genius behind this is, in my opinion, is how little.

[1631] you're going to show it.

[1632] That's right.

[1633] Yeah.

[1634] Once.

[1635] This is such a comedian's joke.

[1636] I don't know that everyone will find this as brilliant as it is, but I'm Thursday.

[1637] You did minimally six months worth of hardcore, not just bodybuilding, but training as well.

[1638] Yes.

[1639] And we won't say what kind of training because that would give it away.

[1640] Yeah.

[1641] But you dedicated six months of your life.

[1642] Does something ultimately be displayed for what?

[1643] Two and a half minutes.

[1644] Yeah, I mean, well, look, it was all born out of the same, it was born out of the same kind of fascination that I have with actors and the male physique.

[1645] And I just got to a point where I was like, I feel like every movie and television show I've seen now men are taking their shirts off like normal guys.

[1646] You know, not, of course, look, Hemsworth or you're playing Thor or you're playing Superman or something.

[1647] That top's got to come on.

[1648] I'm talking about the guy who's like a chicken delivery guy, you know, in the movie.

[1649] You're a mechanic.

[1650] And he knows, the actor knows, oh, I'm having a love scene.

[1651] So I'm going to get in incredible shape.

[1652] I'm guilty of this.

[1653] The truth is that there's not a human being on earth that has abs unless they are working towards getting abs.

[1654] Right.

[1655] And generally, chicken delivery guys don't have abs.

[1656] Generally, right?

[1657] All those chicken delivery guys.

[1658] Or mechanics, let's just say.

[1659] I have never met a mechanic with abs.

[1660] unless he was really going for that, right, going for that look.

[1661] So if it's not a, if it's not a character trait, a guy that's like a gym rat, he shouldn't look like that.

[1662] Right.

[1663] And I just, like a gymness.

[1664] Yeah.

[1665] And I feel like I've been seeing it a lot, like a lot.

[1666] So I wanted to do, I wanted to do my version of it because I thought it would be so stupid to do something like that.

[1667] And generally when you see it in the movie, you see the guy with his shirt, physique is like a huge part of us.

[1668] You see him and he looks great for the entire movie.

[1669] And I just thought it would be funny if I did that.

[1670] And then I showed off in the first like two minutes.

[1671] The other characters think it's really stupid.

[1672] And they don't really even get it.

[1673] Why did you do it?

[1674] I'm like, I don't.

[1675] I did it for you.

[1676] And they're like, why?

[1677] I did it for you.

[1678] And I'm like, well, how can we use the body?

[1679] And they're like, we can't put your shirt back on.

[1680] And then I put my shirt back on and then never take it off again.

[1681] Oh my.

[1682] And so that I don't know.

[1683] I just feel like That would be funny, and that's what I'm doing.

[1684] It's tremendously funny.

[1685] And have you gotten any response on Twitter?

[1686] Like, is my hunch true that it's probably 90 % of the response so far as guys, all men?

[1687] Isn't it so depressing?

[1688] All men.

[1689] All men.

[1690] It's so depressing.

[1691] All men.

[1692] Yeah.

[1693] I haven't heard.

[1694] Have you heard from any women?

[1695] Yeah.

[1696] A couple.

[1697] But I think mostly, mostly, it's like, it's a little, it's too much.

[1698] Oh, that's what you're hearing from women.

[1699] Well, I went for a very specific, I went for a very specific body.

[1700] Right.

[1701] And that was, and so, okay, well, I will say that I hired the greatest guy.

[1702] Aaron Bobayan is the, is the, we love Aaron.

[1703] Yeah, he is the trainer of, he's the Hollywood male body trainer.

[1704] And Channing Tatum, if you ever love Chan's body.

[1705] He does magic mind.

[1706] And he gets all over that body.

[1707] Gossling.

[1708] He does all the, he does that, he does all the guys.

[1709] So I, and he's also a friend of Steve Castro aforementioned.

[1710] So I sit them down and I'm like, Aaron mentioned.

[1711] Yeah.

[1712] You like that?

[1713] Nice word play.

[1714] Those are the things the women comment on by the way.

[1715] He set up.

[1716] I hope I used to it correctly.

[1717] You did.

[1718] Okay, we'll hear it in the fact check.

[1719] Please look it up.

[1720] So I said, okay, Aaron, there's a very specific body that I want to go for because it because I'm trying to do something very specific.

[1721] It's the male body that I want.

[1722] He goes, Brad Pitt Fight Club.

[1723] I said, how did you know that?

[1724] He goes, literally every guy I've ever worked with.

[1725] Every guy says, I want Brad Pitt Fight Club.

[1726] Yeah.

[1727] And he goes, go back and watch Brad Pitt in Fight Club.

[1728] He is not big.

[1729] In fact, he's incredibly skinny.

[1730] He's so, so skinny.

[1731] He's so lean.

[1732] And it's like his frame, it's like he's got a great frame anyways.

[1733] So he goes, but here's the thing.

[1734] Here's the thing, man. Brad Pitt looks like Brad Pitt, right?

[1735] And he's like, so we're going to do this and like it's just going to be your body, right?

[1736] Like it's going to be a version of your body.

[1737] So he said, okay, great.

[1738] So I'll go for that.

[1739] And I thought, man, that would be really funny too.

[1740] It's like even if you were to get Brad Pitt's body, you still don't have Brad Pitt's face.

[1741] No, in fact.

[1742] You almost need his face to pull off that body.

[1743] It looks preposterous.

[1744] Exactly.

[1745] Yeah, I've been guilty of this.

[1746] Yes.

[1747] So I thought that's even funny.

[1748] is like that if one character, if I'm like, but don't you see, put it side by side.

[1749] I have the same body as Brad Pitt.

[1750] So therefore I look like Brad Pitt.

[1751] And they're like, Mac, Mac, Mac, what about the face?

[1752] You forgot the most important.

[1753] Literally the most important part of his body is his face.

[1754] And I'm like, well, kind of.

[1755] No, not kind of.

[1756] Not even close.

[1757] Right.

[1758] Anyway, I went for it.

[1759] Honestly, when I talk to my doctor about this one, you know, because I said, oh, this is like a better version, you know, because I'm going to be healthier.

[1760] And he's like, this isn't necessarily healthy either.

[1761] You're a doctor.

[1762] You're changing your body in very short amounts of time.

[1763] It's not necessarily great.

[1764] You know, like it's not, we want to make sure we're monitoring your heart.

[1765] Although they say starving for a period of time, it promotes longevity.

[1766] So I might disagree with your doctor.

[1767] I don't think the concern was the, was the caloric reduction.

[1768] And I think caloric intake.

[1769] I think it was the dramatic increase in a heart rate that it takes to create that in like, it was really like three and a half months.

[1770] Uh -huh.

[1771] And so anyway, I was monitored through through that as well.

[1772] And it turned out like it was all right.

[1773] But I definitely felt better when I was fat.

[1774] You did.

[1775] Yeah.

[1776] Yeah.

[1777] But I remember when this all concluded and I said to you, are you going to keep up this regime, this regimen?

[1778] And you're like, It's tempting because you're moving through the world and you say people are responding to you differently and you're 40 years old.

[1779] Isn't that bizarre to be inhabiting a new body that gets just, just people can't resist.

[1780] They're just, they're having a reaction to your physical presence.

[1781] Yes.

[1782] That's involuntary.

[1783] And that they're vocalizing.

[1784] So I had the same thing when I was fat, but it was no one was, no one was saying.

[1785] So I would, I would never, because it was part of the experiment, it was fun for me. was that I wasn't telling anybody why I was doing it.

[1786] So I would see people I hadn't seen it a long time and they would sort of like be like talking to me and like I got the sense of what it might feel like to be a woman.

[1787] Yeah.

[1788] Who was like well in doubt or something like that.

[1789] That they were like looking down at my body as opposed to my eyes because they're trying to like sneak a peek of what's going on.

[1790] What's happening?

[1791] And then I'm like, oh yeah, like women, no. Oh, right.

[1792] They can see.

[1793] I'm watching you.

[1794] watch my body you know like and so and I would be like yeah you know things are good you know and they're like oh wow he's like he looks terrible he's so fat but but when I'm when I got in really good shape it was a point of conversation with every person that I would talk to and then it would instantly I kind of felt like I'm I can't say for sure what it's like to be in recovery but I can say that my friends who are in recovery I notice that a lot of people will come to you with like they're especially if they're drinking or you're out of bar or something they'll come to you and be like oh man i know i'm drinking too much i got to maybe like get it under control or whatever i i i would hear from almost every single person in my life they would come up they'd be like oh man you look great you look like you're in pretty good shape and i really got it what are you working on like what what's your routine because i really got to get to the gym and i i've thought about maybe getting into shape and i'm like i don't care you guys get in the shape or don't like But how did you do it?

[1795] I'm like, I run three miles a day.

[1796] I work out five times a week with a trainer.

[1797] I eat right.

[1798] I mean, I'm a secret.

[1799] But this was what was kind of cool about it too, working with Aaron because Aaron does this for a living, he's like things that in real life, like aspects of your body in real life, that you would think traditionally are what like look cool in a male physique.

[1800] Don't necessarily play on camera.

[1801] Yeah, on camera.

[1802] I .E. Pitt, probably 100 he probably weighed like 150 pounds in that movie he's so skinny yeah he's like really it's not about size it's about uh symmetrics right and so creating the right frame i can't believe we're talking about this in such great detail this is so this is the this is exactly why i did it in the first place because this conversation is so fucking lame to me it is but anyway Aaron was like this is what you want to do is build this and build that and don't worry about this don't and And the first thing he said to me, which broke my heart, was we're not going to do any chest.

[1803] Yeah.

[1804] No, the chest doesn't matter at all.

[1805] And I'm like, that's my thing.

[1806] I can, I can bench press so much, Aaron.

[1807] And he's like, I don't care how much you can bench press.

[1808] I'm like, but this is how I impress people.

[1809] He's like, no one is impressed by that.

[1810] I'm like, Dax is impressed by that.

[1811] Oh, it drives me nuts.

[1812] You can ventress more than me. But you know what I like about this conversation is it debunks this new notion that men don't have body image issues.

[1813] Oh, I 100 % I have dysmorphia I am obsessed with it But we don't give very much credit to men's body issues But they're real Well that is what's funny is We're very well aware of the The way that Hollywood does obscure our fuck up women's Expectations of their body But every little boy is playing with a GI Joe doll It too is They have the exact same proportion As Schwarzenegger did You know like you definitely Definitely as a little boy, you want to grow up and look like, you know.

[1814] Yeah.

[1815] Something you may not ever be able to look like.

[1816] So to me, it was, it was, it was fulfilling.

[1817] It was satisfying insofar as that I could justify it all the way through.

[1818] I was doing the most vain thing I could do, right?

[1819] Which was like create this like perfect male physique.

[1820] And I was getting all the benefits of that.

[1821] But also I could justify it all the way through by saying, I'm making fun of this.

[1822] Yes.

[1823] right so that like so that I'm and Caitlin's like really are you and Charlie was like why are you doing this man is this actually like because you're making fun of it or because you want to look like this I'm like I if I'm being 100 % honest I don't know but I can't I can't extricate myself from the reality of the situation so well I can say exactly what happened you started off in on the joke yeah and then you ended not in on the joke that's what makes it even fun because I Like I said to you, like I, there is something intoxicating about looking better and feeling better.

[1824] And even though I was like, oh, I'm going to go because of this other show I'm doing.

[1825] I'm like, I'm going to gain the weight again.

[1826] I'm like, I don't want to do it.

[1827] Yeah.

[1828] There is something about it that feels good.

[1829] Yeah.

[1830] And then there's just something inherently, I'm just competitive.

[1831] And so I, one of the things that would help motivate me was what was was being like, okay, you do the same routines as like Channing or or Ryan.

[1832] And it would be like, okay, all right.

[1833] You know, it was like this like pull up, push up, squat routine, right?

[1834] And he'd be like, okay, well, you know, like Chan does this in 25 minutes.

[1835] And I'm like, fuck, I'm going to beat, I'm going to beat Chan.

[1836] You know, like, if I can beat Channing Tatum, then therefore what?

[1837] Yes, yes.

[1838] It's still the same problem.

[1839] I still don't look like Channing.

[1840] Well, I was just going to say is like we're really just doing this because we are stuck with these fucking faces.

[1841] Exactly.

[1842] I'm never going to look like Channing.

[1843] I'm never going to look like Brad.

[1844] No, but here, babe.

[1845] So don't be too worried.

[1846] I was for a short period of time.

[1847] Yeah.

[1848] Well, Rob McClaney, I hope you'll come back because I'm also curious how you're so seemingly self -actualized and evolve yet you don't, to my knowledge, you're not in a 12 -step program and you're not.

[1849] No. You don't do regular therapy, right?

[1850] No. But I have a -man, I guess it's this fucking Jesuit thing maybe.

[1851] Could be.

[1852] Could be.

[1853] I haven't, we didn't get a chance to talk about Kate.

[1854] I feel like I talked about myself too much.

[1855] Well, that's my fault.

[1856] That's because I'm obsessed with you.

[1857] But yeah, before you go, let's just say that one of the loves of my life is your wife.

[1858] She's so spectacular.

[1859] Incredible.

[1860] You really got lucky.

[1861] Oh, a grand slam.

[1862] Yeah.

[1863] A grand slam.

[1864] Yeah.

[1865] Really just fell into your lap, too.

[1866] Yeah.

[1867] She auditioned for, she auditioned for Sunny.

[1868] Yeah.

[1869] You're one of the examples I use when I say, well, people should be able to date in the workplace.

[1870] What are we saying?

[1871] We can't not have people.

[1872] Well, how the fuck else are you going to meet somebody?

[1873] Yep.

[1874] Well, we wound up with two children because of it.

[1875] Yeah.

[1876] Yeah.

[1877] I mean, I look up to her.

[1878] She's changed my life in too many ways to count.

[1879] Somebody who is so singularly good at something that is just intoxicating.

[1880] Well, yeah.

[1881] So this is what I was going to get at is that you're a tremendous comedic writer and you're a great comedic showrunner.

[1882] You on a stage next to Caitlin, she's going to mop you up.

[1883] Blow me away.

[1884] As a performer, She's just infinitely better than you, right?

[1885] Yes.

[1886] I would say about my wife.

[1887] Yeah.

[1888] Without a doubt.

[1889] Yeah.

[1890] I mean, I would say that about every member of the cast.

[1891] I mean, I, that was, I never thought of myself as funny.

[1892] I, this was never my intention.

[1893] I did not want to do this.

[1894] Right.

[1895] And I just sort of fell into it.

[1896] And then surrounded myself with incredibly funny people.

[1897] And, and Caitlin is to me the funniest woman in, in the business.

[1898] I describe her, yeah, as, is, uh, Julie Louise Dreyfus.

[1899] To me, Julie Louise Drivers is the number one.

[1900] Because she can pull anything off.

[1901] I believe anything she's doing.

[1902] Fact check.

[1903] It's not Louise.

[1904] I know.

[1905] Trust me. What is it?

[1906] It's not Julia Louis.

[1907] Louie.

[1908] Julia Louise.

[1909] So we just did it right now.

[1910] Okay.

[1911] Julia Louie drives.

[1912] Real time fact check.

[1913] Yes.

[1914] She's incredible.

[1915] And I think of Caitlin.

[1916] I told her when she was on that first episode of the Mick, I was like, forget it if you turn her loose she can do everything yeah and she's beautiful yeah it's pretty crazy yeah i remember being in high school and falling in love with with uh elaine benis you know and because she was just so i mean she was just so original and so funny and i'd never seen anything like that before all due respect to the cast of friends who i think i mean lisa kudrow is incredibly funny it was just something that like that julia louis there's a confidence Yeah, that I was doing on that show that I was like, I fell in love with that idea.

[1917] And then I never really thought about it again.

[1918] And then I met my wife and I was like just watching her.

[1919] And we were friends, you know, for a while as we were castmates, you know, on the show.

[1920] And I would just watch her and just be mesmerized by somebody who is just so singularly great at something.

[1921] Yeah.

[1922] And so confident.

[1923] And she has that thing where she just never.

[1924] she, she is constantly trying to get better and questioning the decisions she's making and questioning whether this is the right path or questioning, but she's never questioning her own ability.

[1925] She knows she can get there.

[1926] It's just, what's the path to get there?

[1927] And that's so attractive.

[1928] And she's also incredibly, you know, compassionate and empathetic and forgiving and just a great, just everything that I want to be.

[1929] Yeah.

[1930] I mean, she fills in so many of the emotional gaps that I have and deficiencies and really has helped me and continues to help me and will continue to help me be a better person.

[1931] I mean, how can I, how do you find a better partner than that?

[1932] Yeah, you got to have a partner who's crushing some areas of their life that you're not so you can aspire to kind of, it's good to live with an example that you can grow towards, I think.

[1933] Yeah, I mean, wake up every day and look at this person and say, I want to, if I can be more like her in so many ways.

[1934] Everyone around me will be happier.

[1935] Yes.

[1936] That's right.

[1937] The world will be a better place.

[1938] Like my immediate world will be a better place if I can be more like this human being who is directly in front of me. So it's like this guiding light principle that I love to dismantle with logic because that's not her strong suit.

[1939] Right.

[1940] Well, like, think of many arguments will win.

[1941] That's right.

[1942] I'll win these arguments and I'll leave and I'll go, oh, I'm right, but somehow she's still a better person than me. So who's fucking right?

[1943] That's right.

[1944] I will, we'll have intellectual, right?

[1945] Like, well, because that's how I'll feel superior, right?

[1946] Like I'll, I'll, I'll bully her into a corner intellectually and be like, okay, now what do you think about that?

[1947] And she'll say, well, I suppose that you've, I suppose that you won.

[1948] And I'm like, well, right.

[1949] But how does that?

[1950] You know?

[1951] She's like, do you feel better and that you've diminished me intellectually?

[1952] I'm like, I feel worse.

[1953] And she's like, then I guess I want.

[1954] She has a, I'm sorry, I'm taking up too much you're talking.

[1955] She has this wonderful ability to win a fight every time by taking the higher road.

[1956] But her higher road is really like devious and manipulative, right?

[1957] So we'll be in a fight and I'll think, okay, she's going to tell me to go sleep in the other room or, you know, get the fuck away from me or, you know, she's going to be miserable.

[1958] And, you know, we have this thing where in our bedroom, I like it.

[1959] That's just very stereotypical.

[1960] I like it freezing and she likes it much more tropical.

[1961] Tropical.

[1962] So this just happened not that long ago where we were in this big fight and I'm like, fuck you, fuck you.

[1963] You know, I hate you or whatever.

[1964] This is miserable.

[1965] And she goes up to the room and I stay downstairs and I'm stewing.

[1966] And I'm like, God, I got to go up there and, you know, she's going to be hot and pissed and I got to go make up or whatever.

[1967] And I go up there and the room is six.

[1968] 67 degrees.

[1969] And she had turned it all the way down to make it perfect for me, right?

[1970] Which is really sweet.

[1971] It's a move.

[1972] That's right.

[1973] But my heart, my heart like melted because I was like, this human being did something kind for me, which is, which is incredible.

[1974] But also, she completely outwitted me in every way, like checkmate.

[1975] Jedi Jew.

[1976] And Jedi Knight.

[1977] And then because of that, I have so much more respect.

[1978] because she's winning in every aspect.

[1979] Emotionally, intellectually, I mean, in every way.

[1980] Yeah, you're strategically.

[1981] Grunting around.

[1982] Yeah, like a, like an eight.

[1983] Yeah, knocking this door down in that.

[1984] Good squatting.

[1985] She's above.

[1986] She's above.

[1987] She's watching you move your hat down in the basement.

[1988] It's putting plates on.

[1989] Well, Rob McElhenney, of course, you were wrong.

[1990] You're a great guest.

[1991] You're one of a handful of idols I have, and I hope you don't do anything to fuck up that status that's a lot of pressure good that was my goal well I appreciate it I love you too I love our time together I love talking to you thank you for having me I'm honored to be here yeah you you'll come back and we're gonna do a show where we do like Deca and Tren with all these different fucking steroids and let's just get let's get jacky man let's get on a couple horses at the pinnacle of it and just get barked and just shred that's what no one takes into account is like yeah you can put on at any given time you can put 60 pounds of muscle on your tendons aren't getting any different now same tendons that'll be holding the 60 extra pounds of muscle the the uh stillone movie expendables expendables i'm like yes the guys the older guys they've somehow managed to stay fucking jack but if you notice they're not moving quickly anymore so they're still imposing but there's no sprinting anymore the the The fights are very slow and methodical because those tendons just are getting any healthier.

[1992] No. We're going to have to think about it.

[1993] So why you can beat up your dad?

[1994] Yeah, I think so.

[1995] I think I could probably.

[1996] At this point, I could take them.

[1997] Yeah.

[1998] All right.

[1999] I love you.

[2000] I love you.

[2001] Come back.

[2002] Thank you.

[2003] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[2004] Everyone was fact.

[2005] check finding hiya monica was fast as lightning do do do do do do do do and we were fact check finding monica was fast as lightning do do do do do do do do do I loved that another uh request yeah another arm cherry request I have a question about these requests okay are they when they request Are they telling you what to say?

[2006] Sometimes yes, sometimes no. In this case, yes.

[2007] They took the time to actually write out what lyrics I should say.

[2008] I thought they did such a good job.

[2009] They really did.

[2010] Predominantly, they don't do that for me. And that's why so many of them stink when I do them.

[2011] You know, it's like I'm preparing.

[2012] Yeah, you're doing it on the fly.

[2013] I'm doing it on the fly.

[2014] You're not really checking to see if the syllables match.

[2015] No, no. The rhythm's there.

[2016] None of it.

[2017] No, no. Rhymes anymore.

[2018] No. I'm only a human Well, this person did a great job They really did I mean the part that they killed was Monica was fast as lightning Yeah Everyone was fact check Finding De -de -l -de -l -l -de -l -l -de -l -d -l -d -l -D -a -l -l - Monica was fast as lightning They even added the hyya In fact Oh wow This is from Anthony Maldonata Maldonado Maldonado Maldonado Maldonado Yeah, on Twitter.

[2019] Anthony Maldonado.

[2020] Thank you.

[2021] Thank you for that.

[2022] Anthony Maldonado.

[2023] Oh, my God.

[2024] There's even a, he even included a video with the lyrics.

[2025] I can't touch it now because it's screen grab.

[2026] Yeah, this, Anthony really thought this out and I thank you, Tony.

[2027] Thanks, Tony.

[2028] Thanks, Tony.

[2029] The Teague.

[2030] You know, I'm nervous that I know this person.

[2031] Really?

[2032] Because someone in my high school's last name was Maldonado and now I can't remember what his first name was.

[2033] Oh, it was Mark.

[2034] So, no, it's not him.

[2035] Oh, okay.

[2036] You sure Anthony doesn't go by Mark?

[2037] He could.

[2038] A lot of people named Anthony go by Mark.

[2039] That's true.

[2040] It's a common nickname.

[2041] Very common.

[2042] Do you understand you blew right past it in the intro that you're saying Philadelphia wrong?

[2043] You know, says you.

[2044] Well, no. Says, says facts.

[2045] Says the truth.

[2046] Says facts.

[2047] Says the truth.

[2048] And says spelling.

[2049] Okay.

[2050] Tomato, tomato.

[2051] No. Philadelphia.

[2052] I guess I'm like wondering where it came from.

[2053] I think everyone says Philadelphia.

[2054] No one says Philadelphia.

[2055] What are you saying?

[2056] What do you say, Rob?

[2057] It's Philadelphia with a E. Oh, forgive me for breathing.

[2058] I'm sorry everyone in Philadelphia.

[2059] You're testy today.

[2060] I am.

[2061] Yeah, Robbie Rob.

[2062] Not Wobby, Wob.

[2063] A different Rob.

[2064] Rob McElhenney.

[2065] He has a hard last name to spell.

[2066] It's nearly impossible.

[2067] It's incredibly hard to spell.

[2068] I've spelt it wrong a lot.

[2069] And I'm very good at spelling, brag.

[2070] Number one.

[2071] Okay.

[2072] So he said he said he thinks there was 160, there's been 160 episodes.

[2073] It's always sunny.

[2074] There's been 144.

[2075] Well, but you know what?

[2076] I know he probably is 16 in the case.

[2077] No, this includes the 10 for this season.

[2078] Also, though, okay, just one more attempt to defend him because I love him so much.

[2079] I think they ordered three seasons at once.

[2080] So in his mind, he probably knows they're doing 160.

[2081] I don't know, that's my guess.

[2082] But anyways, 140, what did you say?

[2083] 144.

[2084] That's pretty darn good, guys.

[2085] Yeah, pretty good.

[2086] Pretty impressive.

[2087] I want me to do some quick map.

[2088] That's 72 hours of content.

[2089] 72 plus 72 is 144 oh is it a half hour it's a half hour legal drama okay so you said Larry David made 800 million dollars his net worth was rumored to be 800 million okay so it's not like that wasn't his like he didn't open his mailbox and have a check inside that said 800 million no he didn't earn 800 million.

[2090] Although they do get checks like that because the way they sell syndication is they'll sell like a five year block of syndication and something like I remember the one I remember was 70s show the first cycle sold for like $780 million.

[2091] So people did get checks for hundreds of millions of dollars.

[2092] But he was on Howard Stern and Howard asked about that rumor and he said the reports are insane and it's nothing like that.

[2093] It's not nearly that amount.

[2094] It wouldn't say exact numbers, but he said it's so untrue.

[2095] Half of it went to his divorce.

[2096] Okay.

[2097] All right.

[2098] Do you think he has a lot of money, though?

[2099] Yes, I think Larry David has a lot of money.

[2100] Okay, great.

[2101] I do.

[2102] But it's good for me to say that because $800 million is a rumor, and he is saying that's not true.

[2103] Yeah, but he also, he's including a divorce.

[2104] Well, his net worth is how much money he has.

[2105] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2106] And so he is not worth that.

[2107] But I think the rumor that I heard was like he made $800 million on Seinfeld.

[2108] Right.

[2109] That's not true.

[2110] No. That's the whole point is what I'm saying.

[2111] He didn't make $800 million.

[2112] Oh, I think you were saying Howard said you're rumored to have $800 million.

[2113] And he said, that's crazy.

[2114] That's not even close to it.

[2115] I gave half to my wife.

[2116] Your net worth is rumored at $800 million.

[2117] Is what he said.

[2118] Mm -hmm.

[2119] Yeah.

[2120] That was the rumor.

[2121] It wasn't like the rumor was he made that on Seinfeld.

[2122] The rumor I heard was that he made $800 million on Seinfeld.

[2123] Okay.

[2124] But that's not the universal rumor.

[2125] I'm just saying we both could be correct right now.

[2126] So he could have made $800 million on Seinfeld.

[2127] He could have given half of that money to his ex -wife.

[2128] And then Howard could have said, your net worth is $800 million.

[2129] And he go, no, that's not even close to what my net worth is because it's half of that.

[2130] Because he gave half to his wife.

[2131] So all things could be true.

[2132] His net worth could be way less.

[2133] I saw nothing confirming that he made $800 million on Seinfeld.

[2134] Okay.

[2135] Okay.

[2136] So he left after the seventh season and then he came back to write the series finale.

[2137] Larry David?

[2138] Mm -hmm.

[2139] James Gandalfini was 37 when the pilot aired of Sopranos.

[2140] Oh, wow.

[2141] Okay.

[2142] 37, not 36.

[2143] Sorry, Rob.

[2144] Right.

[2145] You know what he might have been saying?

[2146] You just said that he was 37 when it aired.

[2147] You could have been 30s.

[2148] When they shot it.

[2149] Yeah, that's all I'm saying.

[2150] I know.

[2151] Okay.

[2152] So you said the reason that we aren't attracted to our siblings is due to some olfactory sense.

[2153] And there was a study in 2007, it looks like, about this.

[2154] But that was with animals.

[2155] They tended to avoid mating based on recognizing.

[2156] specific smells, but they couldn't really, they couldn't really attribute that to humans.

[2157] So there's this Western Mark hypothesis, which is a Finnish sociologist who first noted in a book published in 1889 that children reared together do not often end up being sexually attracted to each other.

[2158] So he was like the first person to say that.

[2159] And there's different hypothesis of why and these different cues like if you saw if you saw that person getting reared by your mother then you then that's like a cue that's a cue to not be attracted but then they said that it would only work for a first sibling so they said but for younger siblings who would have no opportunity to make this observation another cue might be the amount of time spent living with another child yeah but what's interesting now granted I wasn't in the scenario for long, but I definitely was attracted to my step -sister.

[2160] And I observed all those things.

[2161] I observed my mom caring for her.

[2162] But not like nursing, not like from infancy and intimacy.

[2163] She didn't nurse my step -sister.

[2164] Right.

[2165] I think that's an indicator of why this does make sense, because that person just came into your life, you didn't see them, you didn't grow up with them, and then all of a sudden they became attractive to you.

[2166] Well, even I was attracted to her at school.

[2167] and then she became my step -sister.

[2168] Oh, yeah, this is nothing like this.

[2169] This is, no. In the case of the Israeli kibbutzim, collective farms, kibbutz.

[2170] Yeah, kibbutz.

[2171] Didn't Seth say he, is that way he?

[2172] His parents lived down a kibbutz.

[2173] Yeah.

[2174] Well, in this case, children were reared somewhat communally in peer groups based on age, not biological relation.

[2175] A study of the marriage patterns of these children.

[2176] later in life revealed that out of the nearly 3 ,000 marriages that occurred across the system, only 14 were between children from the same peer group.

[2177] Of those 14, none had been reared together during the first six years of life.

[2178] This result suggests that the Western Mark effect operates during the period from birth to the age of six.

[2179] Also supports my olfactory theory I read.

[2180] Yeah, because they were around all these people, so they imprinted, even though they weren't biologically related.

[2181] They imprinted the people they were around nonstop.

[2182] Right.

[2183] So, yeah.

[2184] So it says it.

[2185] Family members.

[2186] But it might not have to do with this.

[2187] It might, it very well might have to do with the smell or it just might have to do with what they're saying, proximity.

[2188] When proximity during this critical period does not occur, for example, when a brother and sister are brought up separately, never meeting one another, they may find one another highly sexually attractive when they meet as adults or adolescence, according to the hypothesis of genetic sexual attraction.

[2189] Mm -hmm.

[2190] And a lot of pornos that are out there.

[2191] Sure.

[2192] sure why not what's your look at the data you have a fave can you tell us i think i've talked about it on here i don't think so i have i said i'm not generally interested in pornography because i can't buy into the fact that the women are actually actually you say it on this episode oh i do oh that's bonkers yeah okay there you go yeah i know you don't really like porn but do you have like a go to that you like a video i mean oh no no no no no no no there was this there was a video at one point I would circle back to because it reminded me of a sexual encounter I had had that I liked.

[2193] Oh, interesting.

[2194] So it wasn't really the video itself as much as it reminded me of a real event.

[2195] Oh, wow.

[2196] Do people do that?

[2197] Do do people have a video that's like their video, like their goodwill hunting?

[2198] Right.

[2199] Where they can watch it in their head and stuff?

[2200] I can't really speak for, I don't think so.

[2201] I think it's all about like quantity.

[2202] Okay.

[2203] Because it's just the way it is now, like in the old days when you were younger, yeah, you'd get your hands on one or two porno tapes.

[2204] Right.

[2205] You know, VHS, porno tapes.

[2206] So then, yeah, so they probably did.

[2207] You had a favorite tape and then you certainly had a favorite scene in the tape.

[2208] So, yeah, you'd watch that scene.

[2209] There's one that I had seen, yeah, a couple hundred times.

[2210] But now with the internet.

[2211] It's just a glut of images.

[2212] Wow.

[2213] Yeah.

[2214] General degradation.

[2215] Yeah.

[2216] Yeah.

[2217] It's rough.

[2218] Okay, Steve DeCastro comes up a lot in this episode.

[2219] Do you want to tell people who he is?

[2220] Because no one, you guys just keep saying his name, but he's just, yeah.

[2221] So Steve DeCastro is a stunt man, stunt coordinator, and director.

[2222] And he stunt coordinated hit and run.

[2223] And he stunt coordinated chips.

[2224] But he also acted in Brothers Justice.

[2225] my first movie, he beat me up.

[2226] Yeah, he did.

[2227] Yeah, and I hated having to pretend I was that much of a wimp.

[2228] You did?

[2229] I did.

[2230] Well, that leads us to our next point.

[2231] Point.

[2232] We're walking through the forest.

[2233] Look, another point.

[2234] Oh, this cherry led me to the cherry bush.

[2235] This cherry bush here.

[2236] Yeah, masculinity.

[2237] Oh, right.

[2238] be a great time to bring up the movie we watched.

[2239] I'm going to because I forgot, but when I was listening back, it is a, it is a, it's a lot of conversation about masculinity and men and bodies.

[2240] Malness, yeah.

[2241] Yes, yeah.

[2242] And we have had just watched.

[2243] The mask you live in.

[2244] The mask you live in a documentary about masculinity and where it really comes from and why we have societally the obsession with men.

[2245] Femininity and masculinity.

[2246] Yeah, and how much we just beat it into little boy's heads.

[2247] And girls.

[2248] Yeah, yeah.

[2249] Everyone.

[2250] Or maybe someone's beating it into girls' heads too.

[2251] But I think that's the point is everyone is falling into this trap that men should be this, boys should be this, girls should be this.

[2252] But the girls are also falling into the trap that boys should be this.

[2253] Everyone's fallen into it.

[2254] And in fact, one of the first things in the movie that was really compelling was a psychiatrist, clinical psychiatrist, saying we love to focus on the differences between men and females.

[2255] And you really look at biologically speaking.

[2256] It's one chromosome.

[2257] And if you give them broad psychological tests, you find that there's 90 % overlap in the way we think.

[2258] I re -rented the movie today so I could find that exact statistic.

[2259] I don't think he says anything about a chromosome.

[2260] Oh, you mean just the, just the gender chromosome.

[2261] Yeah, exactly.

[2262] But the study is these psychological tests on 50 ,000 girls and it results in a bell curve.

[2263] And then they do it with 50 ,000 boys.

[2264] That also results in a bell curve.

[2265] And when you superimpose those two, it's a 90 % overlap.

[2266] And it's just these tiny shoulders at the edge.

[2267] And those are the places that we.

[2268] choose to hone in on as boy and girl.

[2269] Yeah, yeah.

[2270] They were like vastly more similar than we are different.

[2271] Yeah.

[2272] It's fascinating.

[2273] But it was really funny as we were watching it.

[2274] And they basically outlined like the four or five ways that we prize masculinity in this country.

[2275] And immediately we're all like, oh my God, Dax is the biggest cliche ever.

[2276] It was like sexual conquest, boom.

[2277] Boom.

[2278] Make money.

[2279] Boom.

[2280] Fighting.

[2281] Boom.

[2282] Yeah.

[2283] Excessive use of alcohol and drugs.

[2284] Yeah.

[2285] It was like any way I could show I was masculine, not having a dad around it, let me know I was.

[2286] I was racing to prove myself in that way.

[2287] You did check all the boxes.

[2288] All the boxes.

[2289] I was really proud of you for acknowledging it and realizing it.

[2290] I really was.

[2291] Because I was wondering if you were going to.

[2292] How could I have missed that?

[2293] I mean, everything they described was like...

[2294] I know, but it's evolved to see when people are pointing out something negative to see that you have fallen into that.

[2295] Oh, sure.

[2296] Yeah, it's funny is I feel no shame or guilt over it because that was like, that's the roadmap I was given.

[2297] And I was like, oh, I want to achieve this, this standard.

[2298] And I think I do too.

[2299] He has a great awareness of this paradox that he hates toxic masculinity.

[2300] And he's super drawn to it.

[2301] Yeah, he finds it fascinating, he says.

[2302] But he was clear to say that he thinks it's crazy and that it all needs to be like transmuted into a different thing, which I like.

[2303] But it is embedded in our culture.

[2304] And it's why earlier you said, you said something about man's man building stuff.

[2305] Yeah, because that's exactly it.

[2306] This is exactly what we do.

[2307] And we say a man's man. and this and this and it just like leads to these crazy expectations that aren't real and yeah the documentary is so good it's really fantastic everyone should really really watch it especially if you're raising a boy but i think yes of course if you're raising a boy yes but also if you're just a person in the world you should watch it because it's we're all part of it we're all part of the problem yeah but i guarantee if you're raising a boy you'd find that daily you're reinforcing those things, completely unaware that you're doing it.

[2308] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2309] I mean, it's in our advertising.

[2310] It is everywhere from, like, day one.

[2311] Mm -hmm.

[2312] For you arrive.

[2313] They already bought you a blue blanket or a pink one.

[2314] Mm -hmm.

[2315] Exactly.

[2316] Oh, okay.

[2317] And then one other thing, sort of tangential to this.

[2318] Rob made the connection to if you're fighting need this, like, need for justice.

[2319] Oh, uh -huh.

[2320] Yeah.

[2321] Yeah, yeah.

[2322] Which I do think is sort of true.

[2323] I think it's true.

[2324] I'm also obsessed with justice.

[2325] Yeah.

[2326] And have no inclination to...

[2327] To administer justice physically.

[2328] Yeah, exactly.

[2329] Through fisticuffs.

[2330] Yeah.

[2331] I'm not drawn to that.

[2332] But...

[2333] Boy am I. I know.

[2334] It's interesting that you feel like that because in other areas of life and in other conversations, you can recognize that when people, you can recognize that when people, you can People are doing something mean to you or calling something out or whatever.

[2335] It's not about you and it's about them.

[2336] And that's a sad existence for that person and you can have some empathy.

[2337] But you don't have that in these cases.

[2338] No, like I'm smart enough to go, oh, the bully that's picking a fight with me at the bar has a lot of problems and issues.

[2339] And he's the victim of probably a shitty dad.

[2340] can recognize all that that can be very present in my mind and then given the choice to be a victim of that person's pathology or to fight back and defeat them i will always pick that but you don't the problem is it does not have to be it's those aren't the choices you believe that and in your experience that is a choice where you can walk away in my experience if you start walking away the guy fucking hits you in the side of the face then you fall down he starts kicking you on the face so many many times in my life you can't walk away if you walk away you're just going get blindsided and then that person's going to beat you while you're on the ground.

[2341] So I disagree.

[2342] Okay.

[2343] I just think it's more, I think it's more rare than you're giving it credit for someone to walk into a bar.

[2344] In Los Angeles, a thousand percent.

[2345] I could live in Los Angeles for another thousand years and never ever have to defend myself.

[2346] Well, I'm not even talking about Los Angeles.

[2347] Well, I'm just saying here, culturally, 100 percent, I could avoid ever getting hurt in Los Angeles.

[2348] Yeah.

[2349] I could not have avoided in my childhood getting hurt.

[2350] well I could have stayed in my house but I go to Aaron's house you heard that story when Aaron was visiting my first trip to Aaron's house to visit him as a new friend we go to play hockey and I just show up immediately as soon as I step up hey motherfucker I'm going to kick your ass that's we haven't even he doesn't even know my name I just walked up I'm an outsider from their neighborhood and that dude's either going to kick my ass or I'm going to fight back Those are the two choices.

[2351] Again, probably terrible childhood.

[2352] I can have tons of compassion now as an adult.

[2353] In that moment in the snow with 12 other boys around, I don't regret fighting back and winning.

[2354] I'm very happy that that was the outcome.

[2355] Well, I guess I'm more speaking to adults because I think the reason these things happen with kids is because they see it happening in adults.

[2356] that you mirror all these things that you're seeing and your parents and the people you're around and all of that.

[2357] So that's probably true as a kid.

[2358] And I agree.

[2359] I don't really know what else you could have done in that circumstance.

[2360] But the reason it's happening, I think, is because of a bigger issue that adults, I don't think, or I think it's probably very rare for an adult to be in a bar and for someone to come up completely out of, of nowhere and pick a fight where you had literally nothing to do with it and no yeah this is the rare opportunity where I can say that yeah that was your experience that is definitely not the experience in bar culture in Detroit the most guys that have drank enough in bars in Detroit have had some stranger come up to them and literally start a fight out of nowhere because they're drunk and horny and it occurs to them they're not getting laid so they shift immediately to then I'm kicking someone's ass and there's a ton of those guys out there okay well that's also part of this problem then that like people are going into bars and expecting to get laid and getting upset that they're not and it's all like that's these are things that we have to change in young people absolutely I guess that's oh That was all?

[2361] Well.

[2362] It ended on such a hot note.

[2363] Okay.

[2364] That's it.

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