Ellen Pompeo

[0] Welcome, welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm Jack Shepherd.

[2] I'm joined by Manika Mouse.

[3] Hi.

[4] How you doing?

[5] Great.

[6] First of all, what am I even saying?

[7] Fuck this whole show.

[8] Today is Monica's birthday.

[9] Oh yeah.

[10] Happy birthday.

[11] Thank you.

[12] Tirty tree.

[13] 33.

[14] It's a little uncomfortable because, you know, we're recording this before my actual birthday.

[15] I know.

[16] Your birthday's not for a day.

[17] Two days.

[18] You know, but I was trying to make it even seem closer like we're really on top of it.

[19] So there's a little white lie.

[20] But you're right.

[21] Two days.

[22] It's two days.

[23] Yeah.

[24] And it feels kind of jinxy.

[25] To say happy birthday before your birthday.

[26] That's kind of a thing in AA.

[27] Like, let's say your meeting's on a Tuesday and your birthday's on Wednesday.

[28] You kind of want to celebrate that Tuesday, but you're not allowed to.

[29] I get that.

[30] Yeah.

[31] Anywho, happy birthday.

[32] Thank you.

[33] Yeah.

[34] I'm really happy you were born.

[35] Thanks.

[36] Yeah.

[37] I was just thinking about that picture of you in the white dress.

[38] Could we post that?

[39] Yeah, it's my profile pick.

[40] Oh, okay.

[41] But could we post it on this episode?

[42] Sure.

[43] Okay, great.

[44] Okay, anyways, Ellen Pompeo.

[45] She is a wonderful actress.

[46] She's also a director and a producer.

[47] You know her from Gray's Anatomy.

[48] She's been on for 17 seasons.

[49] She was also in Catch Me If You Can in one of my favorite comedies of all time, old school, and I love talking to her.

[50] So please enjoy Ellen Pompeo and send Minuture Mouse a happy birthday greeting on Instagram, which she hates that I said, but do it.

[51] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now.

[52] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[53] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[54] He's an armchair expert.

[55] Hello.

[56] Where we are finally.

[57] This is so silly, isn't it?

[58] What are we?

[59] 700 feet away as the crow flies?

[60] Listen, if you say anything to piss me off, I'll throw eggs at your roof.

[61] You are close enough to, like, come confront me in person.

[62] Even my husband was like, wait, you're doing Dax podcast from the dining room?

[63] And I was like, yeah, it's COVID, babe.

[64] And he was like, oh, right.

[65] I did have fantasies of maybe just, like, coming to your backyard with a mobile recorder.

[66] How would that have landed on your ears had I suggested that?

[67] Well, how it would land on the ears is sound like children jumping on a trampoline.

[68] Oh, right, right, right.

[69] We have the same problem.

[70] I'm not sure what I've done in my life.

[71] I guess I do talk sort of loud.

[72] I am half Italian.

[73] Let the Italian American community go nuts now because I said that.

[74] They're going to take your award back.

[75] But my kids scream.

[76] They scream.

[77] I don't get it.

[78] I got to say, you know, my wife when we first started dating, And she used to say to me all the time, where is your volume knob?

[79] Because I would like to turn it down.

[80] And, you know, I have to take responsibility.

[81] I think they inherited that for me. They seem to not have a volume knob either.

[82] And it's just set to full tilt.

[83] How old are your kids?

[84] They are three, six, and ten.

[85] Wow.

[86] I guess you had two girls.

[87] Was that the motivation for number three to try to get a boy?

[88] Yes, for sure.

[89] And you're from Massachusetts?

[90] I am.

[91] Okay.

[92] The word gives me a girl.

[93] great anxiety pronouncing it.

[94] How do you say it?

[95] Massachusetts.

[96] Okay.

[97] It's the Oots, I think, that I stumble upon.

[98] The Massachusetts Oots.

[99] You can always say Boston.

[100] Okay, so you are from a Boston suburb?

[101] I am.

[102] Yeah, and like what kind of background?

[103] Middle class?

[104] A very blue collar, Italian, Irish town called Everett, which is literally right next door to Boston, would be like the equivalent of Brooklyn.

[105] You go over a bridge and there you are.

[106] It was actually in the the opening scene of some Affleck movie.

[107] The town.

[108] Maybe the town.

[109] Yeah.

[110] Sketchy place.

[111] But now it must be so surreal because that neighborhood where they shot that movie, Steve Wynn built a giant casino there.

[112] So the town is based off of stories from Charleston Mass, which is also next door to Boston, which has the highest amount of bank robbers in the United States per capita.

[113] Yeah, 50 % at, well, At one point, of all armored car robberies were happening in an eight -block area.

[114] But now there's this giant casino there.

[115] Oh, no kidding.

[116] Yeah.

[117] Yeah, I worked there.

[118] And my driver was from Boston, and he was newly out of prison.

[119] And I became obsessed with him, and we became buddies.

[120] And it kind of delivered on all my expectations.

[121] What was your driver's name, do you know?

[122] Yes, it was Jimmy.

[123] Oh, Jimmy, yeah.

[124] Uh -huh.

[125] Yeah, as you would expect.

[126] You know, it's controversial there because most of the Teamsters do have felony convictions and they get out of prison and they get these amazing union jobs.

[127] Yeah.

[128] Which some people have a problem with.

[129] I happen to personally love it.

[130] Me too.

[131] Yeah.

[132] I feel like I relate more to a guy like that than maybe other folks.

[133] But what did Dad do?

[134] My father was a cigarette salesman.

[135] In that he went to many different stores and whatnot and supplied them.

[136] Yes, he had a route.

[137] and he would go to the different convenience stores and take their orders for what cigarettes they were ordering, you know, 30 cases of marbles or whatever it was.

[138] Yeah.

[139] And, yeah, he was the one who supplied the cigarettes to the stores.

[140] And then his side hustle was, I think he supplied the wise guys with their tobacco as well.

[141] Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful.

[142] Which I don't really have any real confirmation of that.

[143] But I kind of, it was street smart enough to be able to see what was going on.

[144] Yeah, yeah.

[145] I think in Boston, in general, everyone's like max two degrees of separation away from some criminality.

[146] And again, I love it.

[147] So I don't say that with any judgment.

[148] I'm actually developing it and lets everybody cross their fingers that that I can sell this show.

[149] But I'm actually developing the most amazing show right now that takes place in Boston.

[150] But we always see everything from the mail.

[151] point of view.

[152] We've never seen a story from the female point of view.

[153] And this is a story from the female point of view.

[154] And it's, it's true story.

[155] It's so parallel to my own life.

[156] I'm super excited about it.

[157] And I just, you know, I pray that all the planets align.

[158] Yeah, I don't think people understand the actual odds.

[159] Like, so it just starts with there's a development period where the networks buy a bunch of shows.

[160] They buy so many shows.

[161] And then they develop them.

[162] And then of those, I don't know what it is, maybe three percent get shot into a podcast.

[163] pilot.

[164] And of those pilots, maybe 5 % or 10 % of those get an order.

[165] And then of those, maybe 5 % get a second season.

[166] It's really staggering.

[167] Yeah, it really is.

[168] And that's why it should be so celebrated when anyone has any kind of success.

[169] Because the odds of it, I mean, you're better off at the roulette table, honestly.

[170] Yeah.

[171] Yeah.

[172] I read your Hollywood reporter article, which was really great, about negotiating the last time around for Grays and deciding like what you felt you deserved.

[173] And and rightly so.

[174] So I just wonder, did you have to break ranks and go like, no, no, I'm sick of the pace everyone set out for this?

[175] I'm ready.

[176] You know, a couple of things.

[177] We didn't set out for that article to be what it was.

[178] Mm -hmm.

[179] So that was interesting, as, you know, many experiences with the press often diverge into different roads that you didn't expect.

[180] Yeah.

[181] You never know what's going to happen when you do an interview, really.

[182] And so I think, you know, I have negotiated several times on Grace, obviously now.

[183] And like I say in the article, the only real power you ever have is if you're truly really willing to walk away.

[184] Yeah.

[185] You have to get to a point where you have to do something several times.

[186] And it's the only way you learn.

[187] I mean, people can tell you all day long, but you have to do it yourself before you can really learn the lessons.

[188] And I think that I was just so beat down and sort of meant to feel that they could do the show without me and, you know, everything they had always said.

[189] you know, Patrick Dempsey leaving the show was that for me. I was like, oh, I have a window here.

[190] Now how are they going to tell me they don't need me?

[191] Yeah, because they were probably, I have to imagine, they were at least behind closed doors insinuating that they could do it without one or the other of you, right?

[192] Probably, yeah.

[193] And then one left, you're like, oh, now what's your game plan?

[194] Yes.

[195] What are you going to tell me now?

[196] You don't have him, so now you can't use him against me. Yeah.

[197] And again, I think that it's another very interesting experience now having lived my life after that article came out is the feedback from people.

[198] And I was in such a unique situation because I had a real dollar number that I could see how much Gray's Anatomy had made.

[199] Sure.

[200] You can see how much a TV show or a podcast generates.

[201] So you have a real number.

[202] I can base my ask off of that number.

[203] A lot of girls come up to me and say, well, I go in.

[204] and I tell them that I want this.

[205] And it's like, okay, but can you prove that you actually make any money for their company?

[206] You know, it's kind of like a weird thing.

[207] Like, I was so grateful that so many women felt empowered by that article.

[208] But then I found myself in a weird situation because they felt empowered in a way that was sometimes unrealistic for them.

[209] Because if you can't quantify your worth with a literal number, then you can't go in there with that kind of bravado.

[210] It's a little tricky.

[211] So I was really had a lucky sword.

[212] In your case, the show's syndicated, right?

[213] You'll read, oh, this thing just sold a cycle for, I don't even know what that show sells for, a half a billion dollars or something.

[214] I don't know.

[215] I think to date it's generated $5 billion.

[216] Oh, my God.

[217] Also, you know, also, we have to mention that I didn't create the show.

[218] Shonda Rimes created the show.

[219] And it's always an ensemble cast, right?

[220] I mean, we had, you know, brilliant talent.

[221] You know, Sandra O is brilliant.

[222] We have so many brilliant actors.

[223] The list goes on.

[224] So it wasn't just me all the time.

[225] There's, you know, a lot of contributing factors.

[226] But it's interesting when you talk about, what's interesting about that is I'm using a real dollar number, right?

[227] And whether this is white privilege or not, we can examine that.

[228] Because awards don't really translate into money.

[229] You know, it's interesting because the first couple seasons of Grey's Anatomy, all the people that were getting Emmys, their shows, I was like, wait, that actor got an Emmy, her shows off the air, she got canceled.

[230] that she got an Emmy, her shows off the air?

[231] He got an, wait, his shows off the air?

[232] And it was like, all these people who won awards, their shows weren't even making it five or six seasons.

[233] And so it's also another interesting thing to look at that and say, well, you know, awards don't really translate into dollars.

[234] Awards are a popularity contest and feed your ego and make you feel great and give a shiny object for them to distract you from.

[235] which is also what I say in that article, which is I think they do that to a lot of actors because they know the ego is the id. And they can dangle this shiny object.

[236] You'll get an Emmy.

[237] And here, we're just going to pay you $10, but you'll get an Emmy.

[238] And so we're just like, ooh, I'll get validated.

[239] I mean, obviously you want to do things that are associated with being good quality.

[240] and high art and all of that.

[241] But I think that's another interesting component.

[242] Well, kind of infanelized.

[243] Yes, which I was never going to go for that.

[244] I was never going to fall for that banana and the tailpipe.

[245] I'd rather go do a cable show for $30 and get an Emmy.

[246] Yeah, no, because when I'm older and you don't hire me because I'm old and then I'm going to be broke.

[247] And Alan Alda said, you don't want to be famous and broke.

[248] Did you ever see the interview with Alan Alda?

[249] I think the key to some sort of mental health is to sort of maintain stability.

[250] And with acting, you get these highs and these lows.

[251] You're super hot.

[252] You're on top.

[253] Everyone's sending you gifts.

[254] Everyone's inviting you to things.

[255] People are sending you dresses.

[256] People are telling you you you're amazing.

[257] And then two years later, someone else comes up and the dresses aren't coming.

[258] The gifts aren't coming.

[259] And then you're like, oh, my God.

[260] So keep a steady and not be wooed by all that, those shiny objects.

[261] I think is much, much healthier in the long term.

[262] Well, it's uniquely harder on females, which are, A, y 'all never get paid.

[263] So, of course you want that trophy because, you know, at best, someone's getting paid 60 cents on a dollar.

[264] So really that award becomes the only thing that will be equal in that.

[265] White women, sorry to interrupt you, but white women are getting paid 60 cents on the dollar.

[266] Black women are being paid.

[267] I don't want to misstep here and say, but I think it's 40 cents on the dollar.

[268] And Latino women are being paid less than that.

[269] in our industry in show business yeah yeah yeah so you know you're uniquely penalized financially and then let's just be honest and the shelf life is like you might as well be in the NFL uh historically it's like 38 see ya and that is uniquely harsh you know I live with an actress we joke regularly we'll be like just horsing around and I'll go tick talk motherfucker it's true I said I say in an article First time I was up to renegotiate on Grays, six years after, I started the show when I was 33.

[270] By the time my first contract came up, I was 39 years old.

[271] And so I had just had my first child, and I was terrified.

[272] I was like, I'm super typecast on this show.

[273] The show is a monster.

[274] And I'm 39.

[275] Like, I'll never work again.

[276] I better just stay here.

[277] And how amazing the strides that actresses have made in the past.

[278] 10 years.

[279] I'm so impressed with all of these women who have gone into business, who are entrepreneurs, who are acting, producing, whatever it is.

[280] There's so many actresses that have found a way to be entrepreneurs and do other things.

[281] I think it's so inspiring and really proud to be amongst them.

[282] So I guess you've been on the show for 15 years now.

[283] 16.

[284] 16.

[285] You've got to be closing in on a record now.

[286] Are you closing in on a record?

[287] Yeah.

[288] We're entering into season 17, and there's a few records.

[289] I think we've broken.

[290] So I just wonder what your journey was overgoing, like, okay, I'm going to stay on this.

[291] It's going to come at this price, but it has this benefit.

[292] And I want to do it.

[293] Yeah.

[294] I mean, you go through obviously 16 years and you at different points in your life, when you want to get off the roller coaster, you actually can't.

[295] You're not in a year where you can get off.

[296] Yeah.

[297] And then in a year when you can get off, you're like, well, wait, this is amazing.

[298] My commute is six minutes.

[299] I mean, at this point, I'm so blessed that the executive producers of the show make my life so fantastic that I have a very set amount of hours.

[300] I don't, you know, that I know exactly where I'm going to be.

[301] I know exactly what time I'm going to come home.

[302] I'm home for dinner with my kids every night.

[303] And it's all where you are in your life.

[304] And kids have a huge part to play in that.

[305] Do I want to be in a trailer in Atlanta at midnight?

[306] and be FaceTiming my kids, good night.

[307] I don't want to do that to them.

[308] My mother died when I was four.

[309] I grew up without a mother, and I want to be home with them every single night.

[310] And once I really brought them into this world, it really became about them.

[311] I was 39 years old when I had my first kid.

[312] So I've done what I needed to do.

[313] I made my choices.

[314] And now I really just want them to have sort of the most structure that they can have and the most stability.

[315] that's not to say that I'm going to go forever.

[316] I'm not definitely not going to go forever because there's another element to staying at a job for a long time that I'm sure you'll recognize.

[317] You know, I asked Denzel Washington directed in episode of Grace season 12, episode 1209, Sound of Silence.

[318] I didn't say one word through the whole episode.

[319] It was taken from a true story of a nurse who had been beat up by an epileptic patient.

[320] And so in the episode, I had my jaw -wired shut so I couldn't really speak.

[321] And so Denzel came in and I said to him, how long did you stay on St. Elsewhere?

[322] And he said too long.

[323] And he was literally only on it for like two seasons or something.

[324] Oh, really?

[325] Yeah.

[326] Not everybody can do it.

[327] You have to have a certain constitution to be able to say, this is me. I like the stability.

[328] I like punching a clock.

[329] Because then with that comes, you have to make sure you're not boring.

[330] You have to make sure your performance isn't boring.

[331] You have to make sure you're not phoning it in.

[332] You have to make sure you're not aggravated.

[333] Because as much of a blessing as these things are, as much as we can recognize that it is a blessing, there's still this biological component that sort of takes over where familiarity breeds contempt, right?

[334] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[335] And things that you loved about a person, now suddenly you can't stand.

[336] Or just that phrase is one that always comes up in my mind.

[337] It's just like year after year after doing something.

[338] I used to love that person.

[339] Now, all of a sudden, the way she flicks her hair drives me nuts.

[340] And that's like a really real thing.

[341] And I've watched actors literally lose it.

[342] Like, they just go nuts.

[343] Yeah.

[344] There's an element to staying in the same environment that also can drive people crazy.

[345] And that's very real, too.

[346] And that doesn't mean they're bad people.

[347] It just means that the repetition of that and the lack of new things It does something to your mental health also.

[348] I've definitely seen it and it doesn't mean people are bad people.

[349] It just means that their brain has had enough of that hamster wheel.

[350] You're playing a character and that character is an archetype and that archetype's going to drive all these stories.

[351] So you're pretty bolted into who you are.

[352] They're going to let you grow a little bit.

[353] But I found myself many times just being frustrated like, wow, he's going to make this mistake again.

[354] Didn't he make that in season two?

[355] And didn't I learn something?

[356] And it's like, it gets blurry.

[357] You're kind of defending yourself, or I would be.

[358] Or I'll tell you, I had a storyline where I had my first baby and I wasn't connecting to it.

[359] And I was like, why am I that guy?

[360] I loved my baby.

[361] Like, I loved my fucking babies from day one.

[362] And this other story where dads aren't this.

[363] Aren't we perpetuating that?

[364] Like, I should be head over heels for this kid.

[365] You know, and I'm fighting for my own identity, my own ego.

[366] And I'm trying to recognize that.

[367] in respect the show creator, but it gets more complicated than one would maybe think.

[368] It's definitely challenging.

[369] You know, and I think the storyline has something to do with it.

[370] And it's interesting because did you, at any point, do you feel like the writers were just fucking with you?

[371] Oh, no, they did.

[372] Once I had my daughter, we named her Lincoln, and then as soon as that next season started, I had a girlfriend named Lincoln.

[373] Like, there was another girl named Lincoln.

[374] Yeah, it's, I won't expound too much on this because I'll get in trouble because there's definitely some crazy shit that goes on with respect to people experience things in their real life and then all of a sudden on the show and the character is going through something and it's torturing this poor person in real life but yet you guys think it's okay to do it on the show because you're going to get some amazing performance out of it.

[375] There's some sort of sadistic thing that goes on and I have so many writer friends and I love writers, and let's just say that.

[376] They're brilliant and genius.

[377] But they have heavy lifting, too, right?

[378] Yeah.

[379] On shows, they have heavy lifting because they have to come up with these storylines week after week after week for these characters.

[380] They're boxed into writing for archetypes as well.

[381] So I think that some buttons get pushed just because there's some sort of control and performance thing that they think they're going to elicit.

[382] But the not getting bored and not phoning it in is definitely, you know, It's like, it's a marathon, not a sprint, and you've got to know when you can slow down and when you can speed up.

[383] And I have to just try to check myself all the time.

[384] There's been whole seasons where if there was too much on -set drama going on, my mechanism is really just to check out, you know?

[385] Okay.

[386] Uh -huh.

[387] Which is definitely frustrating for other actors because all actors work in a different way, right?

[388] You have some actors who is super prepared.

[389] They'll sit all night and study and think about the way they're going to work.

[390] walk in the room and where they're going to put their hand.

[391] And that's never my style.

[392] I'm sort of more.

[393] I need to be more in the moment.

[394] Uh -huh.

[395] We'd be great seeing partners.

[396] I want to get scared in it and I want to get surprised and I want to get confused and find my way out of it.

[397] Exactly.

[398] And so for me to answer your question about how I stay in it at this particular moment, being engaged in the story and having some control over my storyline and talking about things that I think are interesting is kind of.

[399] what helps.

[400] You know, last season, we did a lot of talking about health care and big pharma.

[401] Food deserts and big pharma, you know, is an area that I'm super passionate about.

[402] Yeah.

[403] And so if my character got to advocate a little bit for that, we did a human trafficking storyline, which was very important.

[404] That's the great thing about Grease.

[405] And what at this juncture keeps me going is because the show is such a monster, we have this enormous platform.

[406] And we have some sort of leeway to talk about human trafficking, to talk about sexual assault, to talk about big pharma.

[407] And so if we can, you know, impart some ideas, you know, I think it's an important platform.

[408] So I try to stay in a place of gratitude.

[409] Now, when you got the show, as you said back in 2005, right?

[410] What were your expectations at that time?

[411] Well, of course, You know, I hated medical shows.

[412] I had watched two episodes of ER and both times thought I was dying.

[413] So, and it wasn't, you know, it wasn't an audition.

[414] It was an offer.

[415] Okay.

[416] You know, I had been doing movies.

[417] I'd been doing small parts.

[418] I've been trying to do really good movies, but in good movies I can only get really tiny parts, right?

[419] Old school came out at that time, right?

[420] Yeah, I was old school and I did a movie called Moonlight Mile and I did Eternal Sunshine and Spotless Mine and Daredevil and some other things.

[421] But I kept getting cut out for the most part.

[422] Well, let's earmark for one second.

[423] Yes, Eternal Sunshine is one of my favorite movies of all time.

[424] One of the only ones that can make me cry.

[425] I can't imagine how heartbroken I'd be if I had filmed that movie and wasn't in it.

[426] That would be soul crushing to me. Yeah, so much.

[427] And what's worse is they don't really tell you that they cut you out, right?

[428] They like invite you to the premiere and you're sitting there with your agent and you're just like, wait, I've been cut out of so many movies that I can't remember.

[429] I can't keep straight now.

[430] It's a long time ago.

[431] But definitely Daredevil.

[432] my part was not big to begin with but my part definitely got completely cut out I'm in it for like a second the lighting is so bad my skin looks terrible it was like this weird shadowy lighting on my scar on my face and it was just like the worst they left me in Daredevil for like seven seconds and it was literally the worst lit seven seconds I've ever seen in my life just turn the knife in your stomach yeah it was brutal so I needed money so my agent was like you know Ellen just do this pilot, get the money, these things never go.

[433] And I was like, I don't want to be stuck in a show for six years.

[434] And he was like, Ellen, you're not going to be stuck on a show for six years because this thing will never go because none of them go.

[435] And I was like, oh, okay.

[436] He reminded you of the odds we talked about earlier, which was probably an accurate thing to say, but not in this case.

[437] For sure.

[438] Now, what's it like when you're in the mix?

[439] And as you said, it's always, I'm sure there's like just a lot of come to Jesus moments where you like reevaluate, like, do I want to do it?

[440] And if I wanted to do it, it'd be for this amount, all these different things.

[441] How does when someone leaves the orbit, how does that shake all those convictions?

[442] Well, you know, to be honest, when Sandra O. left the show, I was like, ugh, how do I go on without Sandra?

[443] Because as amazing as Patrick is, he wasn't really in the show that much.

[444] Okay.

[445] His impact is so huge, obviously, such an iconic part of the show.

[446] But more of my work, my day -to -day scenes were with Sandra.

[447] And she was such an amazing scene partner.

[448] Then I was like, ah, is there a show without Sandra?

[449] Right.

[450] I also had to weigh my options and like, listen, typecasting is a very real thing.

[451] I mean, I think that our counterparts have done an amazing job in this town of breaking out of molds.

[452] And if you had asked me 15 years ago, was I proud to be an actor?

[453] I wasn't really that proud to be an actor.

[454] I didn't think it was that noble a profession.

[455] Yeah.

[456] But I'm pretty impressed with a lot of strides that particularly women have made in the last 10 years.

[457] But, you know, Sandra's a different kind of actor.

[458] She was on a super successful show before Grace.

[459] She was on a show called Arliss on HBO.

[460] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[461] She was literally like the best thing about that show.

[462] Agreed.

[463] And you never doubt whether Sandra O's going to work again, right?

[464] She'll work forever, right?

[465] Uh -huh.

[466] But me, I was like, you've got to think, like, am I going to work again?

[467] Or am I just going to be so typecast?

[468] When Patrick left, it was different because when Patrick left, I had something to prove.

[469] Because now we circle back to that negotiation conversation.

[470] He left season 11 and then I was renegotiating in season 12.

[471] So I could have left because the man left, which is not a story that I want to tell.

[472] Like he's not here anymore, so I have to go.

[473] Right.

[474] So I had to say that that story then becomes, you know, what can I do without?

[475] the man because they had put that in my head for so long that I was no good without him.

[476] So then I had to then rewrite the ending of that story and say, well, who's right?

[477] Are they right or am I right?

[478] Am I actually good without him?

[479] So I had to take over that script and rewrite that story and prove to myself that they were wrong in all the things they put into my head over all of those years.

[480] Also, the other thing was when I talk about rewriting the end of the story, and I've said this before also, was it was important to me that we did have, and I've said very publicly before, we had a lot of issues with toxicity on the set.

[481] Listen, as every set does, because actors in the environment is ripe for it.

[482] It's not anybody's fault.

[483] It's never one person's fault.

[484] There are many contributing factors that factor into a toxic workplace.

[485] It's never just one person or two people.

[486] And it's like a virus.

[487] It spreads.

[488] It catches.

[489] You see someone else acting bad.

[490] So you think, oh, well, they got that.

[491] So I'll do that.

[492] is you got to stop your hand on the table.

[493] That's what you do.

[494] You slap your hand on the table.

[495] I'm going to slap my hand on the table.

[496] So, you know, it's like a virus, right?

[497] So also after Patrick left, I said, okay, I am going to stay.

[498] I am going to prove that they need me. But then also, I really wanted to change the story of the experience of the show.

[499] And I wanted to see if we could turn the culture around and we could make the set a happy place because it really had never been.

[500] It was a lot of bad behavior being taught, being shown.

[501] being copied.

[502] So that was another challenge from me to see, well, listen, I have this opportunity to make this bundle of money because the studio needs me. But what else can I do?

[503] What else can I do from me?

[504] What other challenge can I present myself with?

[505] And that was that was that.

[506] Yeah.

[507] So all those decisions, I think, are brilliant.

[508] I would hope I'd make all the same ones.

[509] But do your ego ever fuck with you and you go like, I don't want to be the last person to leave a party?

[510] Like does the old like Of course, of course All the time Sean and I talk about this all the time Like listen I do not want to be The Graves dying on the vine Like already to watch myself age From 33 to 50 now On screen That's not so fun Because you really see it Because I'm in the same clothes Right I'm in the same character So the way I see myself Aging is you know That's a motherfucker Oh yeah And then how about about the storylines that the new storylines come your way and you start going like oh i guess so i have an 18 year old in this all right uh yeah uh yeah i guess mathematically that makes it like it keeps making you confront how old you are like oh i got a grand kid on the way wow we're there okay but at the same time i think the overall goal of my life is to always keep my ego in check uh -huh you know and it's like i don't want to tell myself lies, like, I don't lie about my age.

[511] I don't put anything in my face.

[512] Uh -huh.

[513] I don't want to tell myself any lies.

[514] I'm not doing myself any favors.

[515] Right.

[516] But certainly, I think to dip out sooner rather than later at this point, having done what we've done, to leave while the show is still on top, is definitely a goal.

[517] I'm not trying to stay on the show forever.

[518] No way.

[519] Okay.

[520] All right.

[521] The truth is, if I get to aggregate, And I'm no longer grateful there.

[522] I should not be there.

[523] Yeah, yeah.

[524] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[525] What's up, guys?

[526] It's your girl Kiki, and my podcast is back with a new season.

[527] And let me tell you, it's too good.

[528] And I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

[529] Every episode, I bring on a friend and have a real conversation.

[530] And I don't mean just friends.

[531] I mean the likes of Amy Polar, Kell Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on.

[532] So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[533] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.

[534] We've all been there.

[535] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[536] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing.

[537] But for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[538] like the unexplainable death of a retired firefighter whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[539] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[540] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[541] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[542] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[543] Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music.

[544] Okay, now you already mentioned that your mom died when you were four.

[545] She was only 33.

[546] And I wonder what your relationship with your mother dying was, what your story was, what your narrative was, and then what it was when you finally had a four -year -old and you looked at the little four -year -old and you're like, holy shit, you need me. You need me so fucking bad right now.

[547] I needed someone so fucking bad.

[548] Did it shine a different lens on the whole experience?

[549] For sure.

[550] I think my mother was 39 when she died.

[551] I don't think she was 33.

[552] I think she was 39.

[553] This is not the first time the Internet's wrong.

[554] No, because I think there's a story about my mother was psychic, supposedly, and I think there was a story about them sitting around a table with her brother and sister, and I think they were eating dinner or something, and I think it was my mother's birthday next.

[555] I think they said it was going to be your 40th birthday next.

[556] And the story was told to me that, you know, she shook her head, like she would.

[557] make it to 40.

[558] So she was an addict, and I say that as an addict.

[559] Yes.

[560] As it was told to me, my mother was involved in a car accident when she was 16 years old.

[561] She was hit by a drunk driver and thrown 90 feet in the air and pretty much broke every bone in her body.

[562] She was coming from church to go meet my dad and she was crossing the street and got hit by this drunk driver and was in the hospital for almost a year, I think.

[563] And she was put on morphine in the hospital.

[564] And so the hospital had her addicted to morphine.

[565] And so then I think when she got out, she had chronic back pain.

[566] She had three slip discs.

[567] And pain management was what the system gave her.

[568] And I think the overdose was accidental.

[569] Now, did you have any resentment towards her as a kid where you constructed this story where she chose something over you?

[570] For sure.

[571] For sure.

[572] Yes, when I was a teenager.

[573] Also coming from an Italian, Irish, Catholic family, you know, no one talks about anything.

[574] My brothers and sisters were at really formative ages, they were teenagers, and they had it really, really hard.

[575] But yeah, I definitely, when I was a teenager, was super angry at her for leaving, not understanding addiction, not understanding pain, not understanding any of that, just coming from a completely ignorant place, just anger.

[576] Yeah, sure.

[577] And then once you get older and you understand, oh, well, there was actually no help for addiction because no one.

[578] back then talked about addiction.

[579] So she probably had zero help.

[580] Yeah, the shame scale was off the charts at that time.

[581] Yeah, in the 70s for sure, 1974.

[582] So then it turns to compassion and feeling really bad that she had nowhere probably to go for help when having five children and probably being not able to care for the kids all the time and she didn't feel good.

[583] So then you feel compassion and sadness.

[584] And then all my milestones, like when I turned 40, you know, or 39 or the age she was when I think she passed, yes, then you feel 41 when you're outliving her.

[585] Oh, yeah.

[586] Uh -huh.

[587] What would she have been able to accomplish, had her circumstances in life been different?

[588] Yeah.

[589] And then I have this other thing where psychiatrists would have a field day with this shit.

[590] But it's like thinking that I'm going to die when my kids are four.

[591] I have that thing too.

[592] Of course.

[593] I kind of am obsessed with death.

[594] I think about it all the time.

[595] I think about my own death all the time.

[596] I always think I'm going to die.

[597] You know, I always think something bad is going to happen.

[598] I'm working on that.

[599] Is that driven out of knowing what a hole was in your life and how you just would not want your children to experience that or your own fear of mortality?

[600] I think it's all of it.

[601] Yeah.

[602] It's all of it.

[603] I just, if I'm in a plane, I think honestly, maybe a psychiatrist would break it down to this.

[604] The first memory of my life is seeing my mother dead.

[605] yeah that's my first memory that tells you that people are quite vulnerable in the world that's the lesson you take away i think yeah i mean that's i think impacted my synapses and that's immediately the pathway that my brain made and then your dad got remarried and that was all fine no i wouldn't say fine no okay good i'd be mad if you yeah took to it like fish and water yeah no no my dad bless his heart really not the deepest guy okay sure he's not with us anymore.

[606] And he had his hands fucking full, no, six kids.

[607] But he also still lived in the house with his parents.

[608] Like classic Italian.

[609] Mom making Sunday dinner and doing his laundry.

[610] Exactly.

[611] My grandmother making Sunday dinner, treating him like he's eight.

[612] He never left his parents that way.

[613] You know, my parents got married and had five kids in my dad's parents' house.

[614] They never got their own house.

[615] So, you know, of course my dad needed someone else to tuck him in at night, you know, immediately after.

[616] And, you know, he married like nine months after my mom died, which was, you know, really devastating.

[617] You know, he probably needed comfort.

[618] He probably couldn't regulate the feelings without the addition of someone helping him regulate the feeling.

[619] I mean, I'm sure it was survival on some level.

[620] Of course.

[621] That's like such a traumatic thing.

[622] Yeah.

[623] You know, it's not like my mother was in the hospital with cancer and they knew the end was coming.

[624] You know, she was this gorgeous, vivacious woman with this personality.

[625] Everyone probably left a lot of stuff on sad, which is haunting when some of the guy is unexpectedly.

[626] Totally.

[627] So I think that, you know, that came out of nowhere was so traumatic for him, too.

[628] And you can't really, I mean, you can, but it's not productive to judge how people respond to trauma.

[629] Yeah.

[630] I mean, certainly should he have done a lot of things differently?

[631] Absolutely.

[632] And, you know, he probably felt like also like, oh, my kids need a mother.

[633] oh yeah yeah survival you know so you know there's that kind of you know weird backwards 70s mentality was like oh let me just get someone else in here I mean you should check and make sure that that person is ready to be a mother to five children who just lost their mother yeah it's a your dad must have been a fucking babe he must have been so good looking because how he landed a chick with six kids is a miracle yeah he well he had five kids okay and she had a son Who was my age?

[634] Who's my brother, Dean, who I love.

[635] My dad was super handsome, really tall, really handsome.

[636] Kind of looked like a combination of Sean Connery and Tom Selleck.

[637] Oh, bring it.

[638] And in the 70s.

[639] That's the ideal look.

[640] Yeah, the mustache, the Gucci clothes, the whole thing.

[641] My sister and I used to drive to the beach, and we used to see my dad standing at the beach.

[642] And we knew it was him because he had super dark tan and he was in full clothes.

[643] He always, he dressed really well.

[644] And there was always a circle of women around him in bikinis.

[645] He must have the perfect job because he just drove around all these different areas.

[646] He probably had like 85 sets of friends at the different stores and people he flirted with.

[647] And the whole thing, it must have been a real ideal thing for him.

[648] Yes, absolutely.

[649] Yeah, my dad was a car salesman, which just worked out beautifully for him as well.

[650] Right, right.

[651] Now, when you eventually left Massachusetts and then you went down to Miami first, what was going to be in Miami?

[652] The goal was a bunch of my friends had moved down there.

[653] All my gay friends had moved down there.

[654] And they were like, this is the next place.

[655] It's amazing.

[656] It's hot.

[657] It's gorgeous.

[658] The rent is super cheap.

[659] You should come down here.

[660] So my friend and I went down there.

[661] And it was before, you know, it hadn't gentrified yet at all.

[662] It was still like that scene in Scarface.

[663] All the buildings were dilapidated.

[664] And we were staying at the Fountain Blue Hotel.

[665] And just giant scorpion, like, walked across the floor.

[666] And I was like, I can't stay here.

[667] I can't live here.

[668] But really, there was nowhere for me to work, right?

[669] There was one gay bar.

[670] Uh -huh.

[671] There was nowhere for me to work.

[672] So I went back to Boston.

[673] And then my friend called me up again six months later, and he said, a straight bar opened up.

[674] You can get a job as a cocktail waitress there.

[675] You should come back.

[676] And then it was the winter.

[677] It was the dead of winter.

[678] You know, there was definitely some.

[679] things in Boston that I was involved with.

[680] It was not a good place.

[681] So I was like, you know what, if I stay here, I'm going to end up dead or in jail or something bad is going to happen.

[682] So then I went to Miami and there was one club.

[683] It was called Rebar.

[684] I had a lot of cocktail waitress experience from Boston and I got that job.

[685] And then I stayed.

[686] I stayed there for three years and then I left.

[687] And then right when I landed, you know, obviously it started gentrifying, right?

[688] There was the one club.

[689] And then in two years, it was just like a completely different place.

[690] Right.

[691] And then by year three, it was really crazy.

[692] That's when like the Versace Mansion was completed and all that stuff.

[693] And it was just that was getting crazy.

[694] And then I thought I need to sort of figure out what I'm going to do with my life and go after it.

[695] I can't sort of be down here.

[696] And then so when you went to New York, were you just aiming to model?

[697] Were you aiming to act?

[698] Well, I was really just aiming to act.

[699] But in Miami, a couple of scouts, I don't know if they still have them, but like, They used to have modeling scouts.

[700] And a bunch of people would always walk up to me and say, hey, you know, I want you to be a model.

[701] And I was really, I'm really short.

[702] I'm only five, six and a half.

[703] I'm like, yeah, modeling's not my thing.

[704] I'm really not interested in it.

[705] I'm not tall.

[706] But I did get a few free trips up to New York City.

[707] The agencies brought me up to New York a bunch of times to go on castings and meet photographers and stuff.

[708] And I got to get a little bit comfortable hanging out in New York and being in New York on my own.

[709] I would go into these rooms and there'd be, like, 12 girls in the room.

[710] They're all nine feet tall and gorgeous.

[711] And there's me. And, you know, you go in the room and they look at the pictures that you have.

[712] They don't, like, talk to you at all.

[713] Do you know what I mean?

[714] It was just like, hey, what's up?

[715] You know, me. I'm like, yeah, you know, want to buy a watch?

[716] Yeah.

[717] And it was just like based on, like, what you look like in a photograph.

[718] And I was just like, I don't think this is really for me. I have way too much to say.

[719] Yeah.

[720] And then I went back to bartend.

[721] I got a job, you know, soon after that.

[722] And I was kind of doing the same thing, you know, going on castings in the day and bartending at night.

[723] And then I made an agent when I was bartending.

[724] Then she sent me on some auditions and I got them.

[725] Started booking stuff.

[726] Yes.

[727] Yeah.

[728] You got to know how to party if you're a bartender.

[729] I've had some of my best friends have, you know, been bartenders, own bars.

[730] And that, you got to walk the walk in that line of work, don't you?

[731] Not really.

[732] Because if you're inebriated, you can't count.

[733] And you can't, you don't know how much people.

[734] are tipping you and you have to stay super clear and focused so that you can take all the money from the guys that are harassing you.

[735] Yes.

[736] I had a completely different hustle going on.

[737] It was not male oriented.

[738] It was not finding a boyfriend oriented.

[739] It was money.

[740] Yeah, of course.

[741] I guess I have an MO, right?

[742] I guess I kind of always did.

[743] But I grew up around wise guys.

[744] So, you know, I'm really like Ray Leota and Goodfellas.

[745] Like I grew up, you know, enamored with these wise guys who seemed to have all this money in power.

[746] They drove nice cars.

[747] They wore beautiful suits.

[748] They had beautiful girlfriends who were fur coats.

[749] I grew up enamored with the power that money gave them.

[750] What I probably didn't realize is they probably killed people, too, which gave them a lot of power.

[751] But I wasn't really cognizant of that fact.

[752] Okay.

[753] So I very similarly obsessed with powerful criminals my whole life.

[754] I've given it a lot of thought.

[755] Like, why?

[756] My first thing is just, I'm impressed with people that through the sheer power of their will can make something happen.

[757] But I do think if I'm more honest with myself, I felt less than and that I was not going to be invited to some fancy school or some fancy anything.

[758] And I think I wrongly evaluated, like, I want that shit.

[759] I'm going to get that shit.

[760] And I'm going to have to get it through hook or crook.

[761] Like, that's just, it's not, I didn't see the past.

[762] There was no one in my family that had done it.

[763] And I just thought, I will not leave this planet without a fast car that I own.

[764] So how am I going to get it?

[765] Like, I wonder what yours was rooted in.

[766] I don't know.

[767] I think maybe the death of my mother, that's a very powerless situation you're in.

[768] You have absolutely no control over that aspect, right?

[769] It's something that you want more than anything in the world that you can never have.

[770] Yeah.

[771] So, you know, maybe there's a sense of control that you need or, I definitely knew I did not want to stay in Boston, and I definitely knew that everybody around me was either sort of drug dealers, drug addicts, criminals.

[772] I didn't grow up with doctors and lawyers, that's for sure.

[773] Right.

[774] You know, so I didn't grow up with those examples.

[775] I don't think I was searching for better role models.

[776] I think I just knew there was more to life, and there was more out there in the world than to be behind A, B, or C. And so I definitely wanted to get out of there.

[777] I knew the only way to get out of there was to make money.

[778] Yeah.

[779] I am curious, having lost your mother, what would you say that impact had on how well you do with other women?

[780] Is that an easy mix for you?

[781] Or has it been challenging or no effect whatsoever?

[782] I don't know that the loss of my mother has anything to do with my relationship to other women.

[783] I will say that I'm not competitive with other women necessarily.

[784] I'm competitive with myself and I put a lot of pressure on myself.

[785] I really love women and I find more so than not, I think women don't like me. Okay.

[786] I don't feel a lot of love from a lot of women.

[787] And that's not to say I've never been competitive with women.

[788] Of course, I've been competitive.

[789] Like it or not, you're in a competitive field.

[790] But like, I would say like in scenes on the show, you know, not to say that I would never have tension with women or be competitive with women.

[791] Of course, there's always natural stuff.

[792] Yeah.

[793] But by nature, I'm not like a catty.

[794] funny enough, I'm a pretty dominant person.

[795] My husband, you know, will tell you I'm A -type personality and I'm pretty bossy and all that stuff.

[796] And I guess I'm not maybe the best person to sort of judge myself.

[797] I don't feel threatened by other women necessarily.

[798] That's not really my thing.

[799] I really want to be friends with other women.

[800] I don't think that has anything to do with losing my mother or not.

[801] Well, by the way, I want to tell you, I didn't ask that because I've ever heard anything.

[802] I have no idea.

[803] Like, I'm not.

[804] circling some feud that I don't know about.

[805] I don't know.

[806] I asked because I didn't have a dad around.

[807] So I have an intense authority complex issue with men.

[808] So you have conflict with men.

[809] Well, men in authority positions.

[810] And then through not having a dad around, I searched out so much approval from my peers, my male peers.

[811] I was looking for someone to say you're a man. It's happened.

[812] You're doing the things that a man does.

[813] And I was very susceptible to wanting the approval of my male peers because I wasn't getting it elsewhere.

[814] So I just think it certainly impacted.

[815] And like again, a lot of it for better, I think ultimately like stuff I love about myself is a result of that.

[816] And and also I've been difficult if you're an older dude trying to tell me what to do.

[817] I've made it miserable for people.

[818] And I, you know, it's my fault.

[819] But at the same time, I think it is rooted in that for me. It's interesting your opinion of yourself and you're a self -aware of that trait that you have and where it comes from.

[820] I think that for me, I hope I'm self -aware, but I think that a lot of it is perception and not actually who I am.

[821] And I think with many women, we're super tough and strong and have to be because we've been through so much.

[822] So then other women perceive us as something that we're not because I have this like hard outer shell because I've had to protect myself for so long.

[823] But then inside, I'm really a super softie.

[824] You know, so I think sometimes, I'm perceived in a way that isn't really who I am inside.

[825] Well, I don't think just men are misogynistic.

[826] I think that the whole society and the whole culture and all of our software is misogynistic.

[827] So I think even women are misogynistic in that they will easily, like men do, file someone who is strong and self -determined as a bitch.

[828] Yes.

[829] Or if you speak up for yourself, you're a bitch, right?

[830] So I think even women, unfortunately, succumb to that same categories.

[831] If you speak up for other women, that's also considered, I've learned, to be a sort of trigger.

[832] Sure.

[833] We're not boo -hooing you, but I am going to add one element.

[834] This is the last question I have, which is you have those things we just talked about, right?

[835] Whereas if you stand up for yourself on set, you're not assertive, you're a bitch, and that's a bummer.

[836] You're going to age out quicker than men.

[837] That fucking sucks.

[838] you're going to not get paid as much.

[839] That blows.

[840] And then I would say the final aspect, and this is one I can speak to very personally and intimately, is it is a very tricky dynamic for a woman to be making more money than their husband if they grew up when we all grew up.

[841] I imagine maybe millennials it's easier for, but I think the male ego and being the provider and that's all, you know, I know for me it was quite an evolution of like, I'm not comfortable with the notion that she's making.

[842] more than me. It's hard for me. As stupid as that is, some category that got unchecked of manhood.

[843] And it took for us, for me, it's not her problem, having children actually recognizing like, oh, this is all for all of us.

[844] We're all safer because of this.

[845] Like, check your fucking ego and enjoy this amazing gift.

[846] But, you know, I've been sober for 16 years and go to meetings every week.

[847] And it took me seven years to get comfortable with that, right?

[848] Well, I'm super lucky for the fact that we're from the same area, Chris and I. Oh, you are?

[849] Yeah.

[850] Okay.

[851] So although we didn't really know each other growing up, we had mutual friends.

[852] Oh.

[853] So he really knows the cloth that I'm cut from.

[854] Yeah.

[855] He gets it.

[856] So he really understands that my sort of hustle mentality.

[857] And he also had to scrap coming up to.

[858] So we don't, really have any issues, thankfully, in that area, like probably once a day.

[859] He'll look at me and say, are you talking to?

[860] Are you talking to me?

[861] You know, so because my tone, I guess I get kind of, you know, I have a few, you know, people that work for me. And yeah, yeah, yeah, my tone, I'm just like, yeah, no, that bush.

[862] Can you just cut that bush?

[863] Just cut it.

[864] No, don't cut it on an angle.

[865] Yeah.

[866] And then, you know, my wife is very similar.

[867] I'll just say.

[868] I just get.

[869] It.

[870] You know, you've got to get shit done and I like to get shit done.

[871] And sometimes I have a certain tone when I need to get shit done.

[872] And it's not all, I'm not in my feelings about it.

[873] I am, have that hard exterior and I just need to get through some things.

[874] And I need you to do that.

[875] And I need you to do that.

[876] And, you know, and that, yeah, sometimes I, I talk to him in the wrong tone is what our thing is.

[877] Has he ever said to you?

[878] Because I've said to my wife and it's caused great fights for weeks at a time, I'll, I'll just go, oh, hey, you know I don't work for you, right?

[879] For sure, it's been said to me. And I know other women who also make a lot of money whose husbands say that, too.

[880] We really have to be careful not to emasculate.

[881] Well, and it's embarrassing that you would have to tiptoe around our fragile egos.

[882] I'm owning it.

[883] But also, I have had that feeling where I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. We're bros. We have these kids together, but I don't get a list from anybody in life.

[884] I burn the right to not be left a list anywhere.

[885] Yeah, for sure.

[886] It takes a really confident man to be able to deal with us.

[887] I think that relationships are more healthy than not being in a relationship because it's someone to hold a mirror up to your own behavior and say, hey, you know, do you realize you do this?

[888] Yeah.

[889] Which, you know, he has that too.

[890] He tends to, it's the same way.

[891] It's that Boston.

[892] He has it too.

[893] He has a tendency to talk to people in a certain way.

[894] And I have to say to him, I know you don't know how you sound, but when you talk on the phone with a woman, you have to really be careful not to say that.

[895] My wife, my wife, I bet that's the most common sentence said in our household is I don't, I don't think you recognize that you're much taller than everyone.

[896] And your voice is louder and deeper.

[897] You need to check in with that a little bit.

[898] And I'm like, I'm just a person like every other.

[899] person who wants to fucking state their needs.

[900] I'm sorry it's coming from higher up off the ground.

[901] And also, I now really feel like I'm from a different generation where it's like, these kids are amazing.

[902] Also, you know what is another interesting thing.

[903] As much implicit bias as there is and systemic racism and systemic sexism and all of that, right?

[904] And this new generation of kids, and I personally am in awe of them and so inspired by their ability.

[905] to call things out and say that's not okay and we didn't do it.

[906] You know, they do have to sort of understand that it's all we knew.

[907] You know, it's like say, you know, I've said things in the past, which I'm not going to repeat because I don't want to start shit again on social media.

[908] But, you know, the truth is we grew up in a certain time and things were a certain way and we came up in a certain way.

[909] Doesn't mean it was right, but it's all we know.

[910] It's like, and on Twitter they're like, you used a fax machine.

[911] You used a fucking fox machine.

[912] It's like, yeah, I used a fax machine.

[913] It's all we had.

[914] I'm sorry.

[915] I used a fax machine.

[916] But what's interesting is cancel culture is what these kids are doing now.

[917] That's actually, I would like to think in 20 years or in 30 years, I know this is pretty unrealistic, but I would like to think that human beings are so evolved in 20 or 30 years that we're like, wow, you used to cancel people?

[918] You used to get online and bully people.

[919] We get in so much trouble for the practices of our past and things that we let slide and things that we never called people out on it.

[920] You had to ignore a lot.

[921] We had to ignore a lot, and we didn't know any better.

[922] That was the societal norms.

[923] Well, their societal norm now is bullying.

[924] These young kids want to point out all of our flaws and everything that's been wrong with us, you know, and there's a lot.

[925] Yeah.

[926] But you got to.

[927] to check yourself.

[928] I mean, Willow Smith came out and was so brave and amazing and said something about cancel culture and how there's no teaching moment in cancel culture.

[929] And I think that cancel culture and online bullying with social media is our sexism and racism of 20 years ago.

[930] Yeah.

[931] Well, so there's a great two -parter on the daily about cancel culture.

[932] And what's really interesting that I just learned from it was it is resoundingly, if you look at pull, it's very unanimous that people don't like it.

[933] That expression in itself cancel culture elicits a negative reaction from the vast, vast majority of people.

[934] But what's interesting is it means different things to different people, right?

[935] So the right might be objecting to one aspect.

[936] But it has some pretty left -leaning journalists on there.

[937] And one of the points they made, which of course I evaluated, was in an attempt at progress in progressive values, which we should have, and in calling out the errors.

[938] It is also uniquely unprogressive to be the judge, juror, and executioner.

[939] The progressive values actually value a due process system, and it values that we prioritize never putting an innocent person away at the cost of letting some guilty people go.

[940] That's our system.

[941] That's the progressive system we all fought for.

[942] So there is something inherently not progressive about the progressive cancel culture, which is very relevant.

[943] But I will say with my own.

[944] I'm also a comedian, right?

[945] And I talk too much and I say bad things.

[946] So I've lived in you know, very specific fear of the whole thing.

[947] But I do have to recognize that a lot of people have pointed out to me. You're not going to get canceled if they find out you were in blackface in 1982 when you were seven at a birthday party.

[948] You're going to get canceled if they point that out and you don't say, yeah, that's regrettable and a bummer.

[949] And that's what was happening back then and I look back on it and it embarrasses the shit out of me and it should have never been acceptable and the whole thing's embarrassing and I'm sorry I do think that is a part that's missing I do think when the people get canceled generally they haven't just owned it apologize and moved on I don't think we're seeing a ton of people getting canceled who own the mistake and apologize I'm hopeful I do think in general it's generally people digging in and the other people are like fuck yeah I got nukes let's do it right so you know I think I'm I've overreacted out of fear of it a bit.

[950] But then I think about this.

[951] When you and I were 16 and 18, there were people I hated in the media.

[952] I hated David Duke.

[953] I hated all these people.

[954] But what was I going to do?

[955] Tell my friends who don't even know who David Duke is.

[956] No. So then I just stopped thinking about it because there was no outlet.

[957] If I could have got online and said David Duke, you're a fucking coward.

[958] I'd love to meet you at Arby's.

[959] I would have.

[960] There's no question.

[961] We didn't have a voice.

[962] Who were we going to complain to?

[963] The local newspaper?

[964] Right.

[965] Yeah.

[966] Yeah, these kids are so lucky they have this platform.

[967] Yeah, and I would have used it too.

[968] So I'm trying my hardest to stay non -fearful about it all.

[969] And also pointing out when it's totally unprogressive and illiberal to be doing this.

[970] Well, listen, I've had a ton of fun talking to you.

[971] I'm so excited now when we finally bump into each other.

[972] We know virtually everything about one another.

[973] And it should be just like fast -paced brohang immediately.

[974] For sure.

[975] This was fun, Dex.

[976] Thank you so much.

[977] Glad we got to make it happen.

[978] We go back to homeschooling now.

[979] Yay.

[980] Or not.

[981] Or not.

[982] All right.

[983] Be well.

[984] Good luck.

[985] Can't wait to bump into you.

[986] Okay.

[987] All right.

[988] Take care.

[989] Bye.

[990] Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[991] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman.

[992] Happy birthday to you.

[993] Happy birthday.

[994] What's that from again?

[995] I think it's Stevie Wonder.

[996] It is?

[997] I think so.

[998] Man, I love Stevie Wonder.

[999] Yeah, me too.

[1000] I just thought it was from like a parody show, sketch show.

[1001] Oh, you did?

[1002] Yeah.

[1003] Oh, happy birthday.

[1004] No, I think it's Steve Wonder.

[1005] It's a real song.

[1006] Do you think his closest friends call him Steve Wonder?

[1007] I think they call him Stephen Wonder.

[1008] Yeah.

[1009] Do you have a favorite Stephen Wonder song?

[1010] Happy birthday.

[1011] Yeah.

[1012] Yeah, that one you're just saying is my favorite.

[1013] I don't know.

[1014] What's your fave?

[1015] Rivens in the sky.

[1016] How does that go?

[1017] Ribbons in the sky for our love.

[1018] I ran out of it.

[1019] Wow.

[1020] I don't think I've ever heard it.

[1021] I always had a dream.

[1022] God, I had the weirdest dream.

[1023] and junior high.

[1024] I wanted to have a daughter named Epiphany.

[1025] But that was because that was Lisa Bonnet's name.

[1026] Of course.

[1027] Yeah.

[1028] But I wanted to hold her hand and walk through the park and hear ribbons in the sky.

[1029] Aw.

[1030] I have done quite a bit of dancing with Lincoln to ribbons in the sky.

[1031] Oh, that's lovely.

[1032] Yeah.

[1033] Let me play it for it.

[1034] It's beautiful.

[1035] Man, he can really play piano, huh?

[1036] It's so embarrassing for all of us who can see if you don't play piano.

[1037] You can cut all this out.

[1038] Yeah, I want to hear.

[1039] It's pretty.

[1040] Isn't that nice?

[1041] Yeah, I really don't think I've heard it.

[1042] God, I'm so jealous.

[1043] To be able to use your mouth as a instrument like that.

[1044] It's amazing.

[1045] I think you could do it.

[1046] I think you have enough skill that if you...

[1047] I need to take lessons.

[1048] Yeah, if you took some lessons, I think you could scat.

[1049] Maybe you can get me some lessons for my birthday.

[1050] Yes, I will.

[1051] How's your birthday going on?

[1052] Well, um, let's say it's going great it's a great birthday all my wishes came true when i blew out my candles today oh they all came true so i'm really lucky did pee baby get you anything no i don't accept gifts from my baby well no it's cute when your babies make you like a drawing oh if she like makes me a macaroni salad yes painting or something yeah yeah okay um You know what?

[1053] All she could really give me is like a pee.

[1054] Yeah, some stain.

[1055] Pea splash.

[1056] She could probably drip like a smiley face on some construction paper.

[1057] That would be sweet.

[1058] I'd hang that up on my fridge.

[1059] Yeah.

[1060] I don't want her to feel limited by the fact that she can't paint very well or draw.

[1061] No, she can't do much stuff.

[1062] She just kind of sits in the toilet bowl.

[1063] Yeah, but you're right.

[1064] Maybe it's like there's hidden talents we don't know about when we're acting like she has limitations.

[1065] Maybe she's Stevie.

[1066] Wonder.

[1067] Exactly.

[1068] Not to compare Stevie Wonder to our P baby, but she might surprise us.

[1069] Yeah.

[1070] You know, I bet a lot of people were like, Stevie Wonder can't be a musician.

[1071] Have you ever seen this stuff?

[1072] There's like a conspiracy theory online that Stevie Wonder can see.

[1073] You know any of this?

[1074] Yes, I've seen it.

[1075] I actually went down the rabbit hole once and I got to say there is one freaky moment where like a mic stand falls.

[1076] And he catches it.

[1077] I know, but it's because they're senses.

[1078] They have sonar.

[1079] Yeah.

[1080] Well, you don't know about sonar.

[1081] Oh, hearing.

[1082] Like echolocation?

[1083] Yeah.

[1084] Well, you know that amazing radio lab.

[1085] Oh, my God.

[1086] I have to find the name of it.

[1087] Look it up.

[1088] Okay.

[1089] So the podcast is called How to Become Batman.

[1090] It's an invisibilia podcast, which is an NPR podcast.

[1091] But it's such a good episode.

[1092] It's about expectation, basically.

[1093] The expectations we put on people and how people meet those expectations.

[1094] Right.

[1095] But he's a blind.

[1096] man, and he rides his bike everywhere.

[1097] Oh, wow.

[1098] He, like, basically learns to see the clicks and stuff.

[1099] Yes.

[1100] That's so cool.

[1101] And then he teaches all these other blind kids.

[1102] And there's, like, some controversy because he can be, like, hard on, you know, it's, like, scary.

[1103] And he really expects them to, like, I feel like that one part of it was he was teaching this one kid.

[1104] And they got to the point where like he had to cross the street.

[1105] I know.

[1106] And then the parents like kind of jump in and he doesn't like that.

[1107] Obviously.

[1108] Yeah.

[1109] It's such a good podcast.

[1110] I have not heard it.

[1111] I'm going to listen to that.

[1112] It's one of the best episodes of the podcast.

[1113] I'm going to go right now in your bedroom and listen to it.

[1114] Okay, bye.

[1115] Yeah, we're at my house right now because of the heat wave.

[1116] Heat wave and we have numerous issues in the attic.

[1117] There's been electrical issues.

[1118] The lights don't go on.

[1119] A couple of the plugs work.

[1120] Most don't.

[1121] Motorcycle accident.

[1122] AC stop.

[1123] working, then it worked for a minute.

[1124] Yeah.

[1125] Yeah.

[1126] So we've just moved camp back over to Monacos.

[1127] When I got here, she offered me, I guess water.

[1128] Is that what you offered me?

[1129] But I heard, would you like some onions?

[1130] No, I think I said, I think I said very quickly, are you okay?

[1131] Oh, is that what I was?

[1132] And then you thought I asked onion?

[1133] And we just thought how great it'd be if when you went to people's homes, they offered you some onions.

[1134] Would you like some onions or some water?

[1135] or no one no one offers anyone onions anymore maybe in Washington in walla walla they have the walla walla sweet onion festival and people go up there and they eat the onions like an apple because they're sweet yeah have you ever had one no are you one of those people who eats tomatoes like an apple i've never done that no no would you no no because i well don't you think it would just collapse and turn to mush i could see that yeah that would be my fear But you love the taste.

[1136] I love tomatoes.

[1137] Me too.

[1138] Love them so much.

[1139] I used to really be into making an heirloom sandwiches on white bread with some miracle whip and pepper.

[1140] Ooh, what a good sandwich.

[1141] Should I make you one of those for?

[1142] This week is Monica's birthday week, so I'm going to be making every night of the week I'm going to make something special.

[1143] Oh, my God.

[1144] What's on the menu?

[1145] Well, the 12 chicks per can chicken sandwich.

[1146] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yep.

[1147] Tuna noodle and bean.

[1148] I might make you the scramble I've been telling you about that I never got around you.

[1149] I love that.

[1150] Can I tell you, I don't know if I can accept this because you're crippled right now.

[1151] Yeah, but I'll do, I can do it.

[1152] I'm fine.

[1153] I can make it happen.

[1154] I'll feel guilty.

[1155] Don't feel guilty.

[1156] Feel loved.

[1157] Well, I do feel loved.

[1158] Okay.

[1159] And I also feel a little guilty.

[1160] This is what you feel right now, yeah?

[1161] Oh, man. I'm going through so many things.

[1162] Yeah, let's talk about it.

[1163] Well, you know, I was, as you recall, I was hesitant to even say it on here that I had been injured because I I don't like.

[1164] By the way, I figured out really what was at the root.

[1165] Remember I said, I didn't want to be someone who got attention for getting injured.

[1166] Yep.

[1167] And I realized a couple days later, it was because my father, this is a very funny story.

[1168] The first time my father and Kristen never met, she was home for Christmas in Michigan, and she took it upon herself to ask him if he wanted to hang out.

[1169] And he picked her up at her house.

[1170] And she got in the car and he goes, oh, look at these.

[1171] And he reaching his backseat and he pulled out x -rays and handed her x -rays.

[1172] And she thought, this is so interesting that the first thing he did upon meeting was showing me some x -rays.

[1173] So I think that's a little bit where it comes from.

[1174] Oh.

[1175] He got in a lot of accidents and he'd get a lot of attention.

[1176] And I just was worried he kind of would manifest these accidents because it was a source of attention.

[1177] But anyways, after we spoke about it, then some people were concerned.

[1178] And then so I wanted to show them I was okay.

[1179] And then I certainly appreciate that.

[1180] But then I posted a picture to show, like, oh, I'm okay.

[1181] Yeah, but you looked hurt.

[1182] Yeah, but I was like smiling to show everyone I was in good spirits.

[1183] That got misinterpreted, I think, almost like I was like cocky.

[1184] Oh, really?

[1185] That I didn't care.

[1186] I don't know.

[1187] Oh.

[1188] There were some news headlines.

[1189] Like Fox News took this really ugly picture of me, and they took the quote when we were talking that said, well, it was entirely my fault.

[1190] I should have assumed that some writer could turn in early, right?

[1191] And so all it says is just it was my.

[1192] fault in this ugly picture of me. Oh my God.

[1193] And it was my fault.

[1194] So they're, oh my God.

[1195] So you know what they're trying to do there is just get people to like, not like me. No, that like to click on it because they probably think that article is about you cheating.

[1196] Oh.

[1197] Yeah, maybe.

[1198] God, they are so sneaky.

[1199] I don't like Fox News.

[1200] Well, here's what I thought.

[1201] I was thinking, I'm a little offended by that because I I think I'm pretty fair to Fox News.

[1202] I say that I watch it when I'm in hotel rooms so that I can understand how other people are feeling about the same topics I learn about on CNN.

[1203] Like, I try to give it a shot.

[1204] Yeah, I know.

[1205] And so for them to kind of throw me into the bus, I was a little bit annoyed by.

[1206] But then it just kind of ended up in a lot of news outlets.

[1207] I just have such complicated feelings about that.

[1208] And then people reaching out to me, it's hard for me to, I don't know.

[1209] There's a lot of layers.

[1210] One is, if I'm in control of being vulnerable, I like it.

[1211] And then when I'm not in control of being vulnerable, I don't like it.

[1212] Yeah.

[1213] So, yeah, I just have no control over it.

[1214] It started as something tiny.

[1215] And then, you know, I got a lot of emails from a lot of people I haven't spoke to in a while.

[1216] And then they're worried about me. And then I feel guilty.

[1217] And then some people are, you know, they're taking me to task about riding motorcycles.

[1218] Like, it's their chance to tell me to stop.

[1219] And I don't love that.

[1220] And also I feel very loved.

[1221] So it's just very complicated.

[1222] It is complicated.

[1223] It is.

[1224] It's okay.

[1225] It's more complicated than it really is.

[1226] It's not very complicated.

[1227] I've heard people are concerned about me. But it's emotionally complicated for you and that's okay and it's good to recognize that.

[1228] I think that vulnerability part is a good thing to recognize.

[1229] Well, what I've decided is that clearly there's a big lesson for me to learn because I should just be receiving this as love and people caring about me, which would be the nice way.

[1230] But the lack of control or feeling powerless over it all or that it just got away from me. Yeah, I don't know.

[1231] It's hard.

[1232] Do I sound like a baby?

[1233] No. But I think it's good because, you know, this podcast is about vulnerability.

[1234] And we expect that from people and we expect that from ourselves and each other.

[1235] And you're right.

[1236] It's sort of a different thing when the vulnerability is practiced or like you've already come to terms with something and then you're expressing.

[1237] Well, yeah.

[1238] I think I've admitted that I'm.

[1239] guilty on this podcast of sharing things I'm I was vulnerable or that I've overcome yeah and that I realize that I'm not as transparent about current issues I have which I think everyone does but is yeah I have a goal of being better at that you know so I guess yeah it's just that it's like real time vulnerability I haven't licked it I'm not all better I can't say oh it was no big deal and I'm fine yeah which by the way I'm fine I'm totally fine I got a great Dr. Delamage I love you.

[1240] He put my shoulder back together on Thursday.

[1241] Yes.

[1242] It feels all good now, feels stable.

[1243] Yeah.

[1244] And you're healing nicely.

[1245] Mm -hmm.

[1246] Really nicely.

[1247] I'm nervous about, I feel like people have leverage against me now to say, like, stop riding motorcycles, which I don't want to stop.

[1248] Do you think it's that, or do you think it's every time they say it, it forces you to have to think about whether or not you should stop or how reckless was it?

[1249] or, you know, I think, I don't, because I don't think, well, maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like if a stranger tells you, you really shouldn't be riding motorcycles, like, normally you'd be like, whatever, like this person has no. Well, that's a great point.

[1250] Like, as I always say, if it bothers you, there's something behind it.

[1251] If it does, if they were just saying I'm too short, I wouldn't even think about it.

[1252] But yeah.

[1253] Well, there's a really weird parallel, which is my hero, Valentino Rossi, last week in the MotoGP race, there was this crazy accident that I've never seen.

[1254] one of this variety in 10 years of watching motorcycle racing where two guys crash behind him on the straightaway and he was in a turn and they both came off the bikes so the bikes just continued forward at like 130 miles an hour and then they got airborne and so he's just going through a turn at probably like 60 and these two bikes come flying one behind him one in front of them and if you pause it there's a moment where there's like it's crazy there's one two feet in front of them one two feet from behind them bolts would have been lights out deadly very scary and and you And it's funny because I guess I immediately thought, oh, here's Valentino.

[1255] He's 42.

[1256] He's the best writer of all time.

[1257] He's won nine championships.

[1258] He's in the least significant part of his career.

[1259] And what if something had happened?

[1260] That's tragic.

[1261] Yeah.

[1262] And then I saw him in the press conference and they're like, did it make you think about retiring?

[1263] And he said, well, and retire and what?

[1264] When I retire, I'm going to go into car racing.

[1265] Like, I want to continue to race.

[1266] It's what I love to do.

[1267] Or I'd be on my farm riding horses, which is dangerous.

[1268] or I'd be riding the motorcycles at my track at home.

[1269] So, no, I don't really think that he's like, this is my life.

[1270] Yeah.

[1271] And that's that.

[1272] And I thought, he can say that because that's his profession.

[1273] So he has like this cover fire, you know.

[1274] Yeah.

[1275] And I can't say that because it's not what I earn a living on.

[1276] Right.

[1277] I think he can say it because, of course, he has people who love him and who would be incredibly devastated and heartbroken.

[1278] if something happened to him, but he doesn't have a family.

[1279] Right.

[1280] So the people who would be devastated probably don't need him.

[1281] They're not dependent on him.

[1282] Yeah.

[1283] So he can make kind of more reckless decisions.

[1284] And I think the difference is maybe, I mean, I know you love it so much, but there's other things you love.

[1285] Like, you know, when we were talking to a tool, you were saying you want to be able to talk and you want to be able to communicate, you want to be able to do this for the rest of life.

[1286] Yeah.

[1287] And so you could still do all that and give up the dangerous things, you know?

[1288] Yeah, totally.

[1289] Do you think there's any validity to people really don't die at the track?

[1290] Now, people die on the street.

[1291] If someone was saying, like, you should stop riding on the street, you've got a pretty good argument to make.

[1292] You know, people do die on the street.

[1293] But in general, people don't die on the motorcycle track.

[1294] It's crazy rare.

[1295] You know, rarer than other benign sports that people do horseback riding more people get paralyzed and stuff doing that so part of me is like on the track it's very yes people break bones and i broke some bones but you have a helmet on and people don't really they just generally don't die yeah yeah i'm not winning you over on this uh yeah yeah i believe you it just i don't know you know i've got months to think about it i have committed to not riding in 2020 Oh, this is the other thing I was going to say, just in my defense.

[1296] And then I'll concede to everyone.

[1297] You don't have they concede.

[1298] I have been riding on the track for 16 years.

[1299] And that's, this was my first accident on the track.

[1300] And I think that's relevant too.

[1301] Of course.

[1302] You know.

[1303] Yeah.

[1304] It'd be one thing of like every year I went down.

[1305] But I did get her twice now within six months, which is you could make an argument.

[1306] My faculties are family.

[1307] No, they're not.

[1308] Which sucks as I was actually.

[1309] actually getting much better.

[1310] I think I had plateaued as a rider on the track.

[1311] But over the last year, I've gotten better.

[1312] And I've been really into it.

[1313] And I've been taking more instruction.

[1314] I've been listening better.

[1315] And I've gotten much better.

[1316] And I was like, oh, I'm getting better at this.

[1317] This feels great.

[1318] Yeah.

[1319] Yeah.

[1320] I don't know.

[1321] I'm not telling you what to do, by the way.

[1322] Yeah, I know you're not ever.

[1323] I just care about you.

[1324] That's it.

[1325] And it's my birthday.

[1326] It's your birthday.

[1327] So you have to listen to me. Okay.

[1328] I will.

[1329] I won't ride today.

[1330] Okay, Ellen Pompeo.

[1331] Ellen Pompeo.

[1332] Well, this is like far down the list, but I just want to start with it.

[1333] She was talking about how like sometimes things from your real life end up in the show.

[1334] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[1335] They kind of felt like that.

[1336] They're fucking with her.

[1337] Yeah.

[1338] Uh -huh, yeah.

[1339] Well, because, okay, so you said that you had Lincoln and then there was a girlfriend character named Lincoln.

[1340] Yeah, the very first episode back.

[1341] It's season five, episode one.

[1342] first off so back, 2013.

[1343] And there is a girl named Lincoln, but she's not related to you.

[1344] Sarah has a new tenant or something.

[1345] And he's like young and hot.

[1346] And it's like foreshadowing that they're probably going to F. Oh, right.

[1347] Yeah.

[1348] He comes in to pay or something.

[1349] And his girlfriend comes in and is all drunk and her name's Lincoln.

[1350] Oh, is that what it was?

[1351] Yeah, she's just in it for a scene.

[1352] Yeah, I'm sure I was just being too sensitive about it.

[1353] It was probably like they thought they were doing a cute nod.

[1354] That was in the phase where I was still like putting a blanket over her head when we left the house because there was paparazzi on the front yard.

[1355] Right.

[1356] And I think I was trying to like downplaying.

[1357] I was also in a period where I was not going to tell anyone or eight, like all this protective stuff.

[1358] I was like, oh, I was, you know, feeling very protective.

[1359] I'm much more chill now.

[1360] Now I would recognize it as probably a cute nod.

[1361] Yeah.

[1362] Okay.

[1363] So how many seasons was Denzel on St. Elsewhere?

[1364] six.

[1365] He was on it for six seasons.

[1366] And what did she say he said, they hated it or get off or something?

[1367] No, she asked him, how many seasons did you do St. Elsewhere?

[1368] And he said too many.

[1369] Oh, okay.

[1370] Something like that.

[1371] I don't even know if I knew he came from St. Elsewhere.

[1372] Me either.

[1373] I don't even know.

[1374] Were you born then?

[1375] Let me see.

[1376] Well, you're 33 today.

[1377] Happy birthday.

[1378] Yeah, he was.

[1379] He was on it from 82 to 88.

[1380] Oh, so you was one years old.

[1381] I was just one years old.

[1382] But I do know how that show ends.

[1383] Oh, you do?

[1384] Yeah, because I don't.

[1385] You don't?

[1386] No. You know how St. Elsewhere ends?

[1387] Yeah, it's like one of the big TV.

[1388] Legendary?

[1389] Yeah.

[1390] Oh, I know so little about St. Elsewhere.

[1391] Oh, this is historic, historic finale.

[1392] Okay.

[1393] So St. Elsewhere is a hospital.

[1394] Yeah.

[1395] And it's about a hospital.

[1396] And the last episode is a kid in a hospital, I think.

[1397] I don't know if he's in hospital, but I think he is.

[1398] And he's playing with the snow globe and they look into the snow globe and it's saying elsewhere.

[1399] So this whole thing was happening in his mind.

[1400] Oh my gosh.

[1401] I don't like that.

[1402] You don't?

[1403] No, because that tells you everything you saw what didn't happen.

[1404] I know.

[1405] Well, it did happen in his mind.

[1406] No, this is like my, the only episode of Sopranos I did.

[1407] and like was Tony Soprano had food poisoning.

[1408] Yeah.

[1409] So the whole episode was him having these weird, like, terror, night sweat, delusional dreams.

[1410] And I was like, none of this happened.

[1411] But you knew that the whole time, right?

[1412] I can't remember if you did or not.

[1413] I just remember, like, it feels like a cop out.

[1414] Oh, I don't know.

[1415] I love it.

[1416] I love that you've been watching for so long.

[1417] Well, and I think it's tied in for saying elsewhere because I don't, you know what, I'm going to have to look it up just to we get it exactly right.

[1418] We don't want to get sued by the people of the same elsewhere.

[1419] No. Yeah, this served as a series final episode and is noted for having one of the most memorable moments in television history.

[1420] Oh, you got it right.

[1421] I just want to know what the kid.

[1422] Is the kid God?

[1423] Well, that's what I want to know.

[1424] Okay.

[1425] I guess if you find out who God is at the end, that that's kind of worth it.

[1426] You'd feel okay about that.

[1427] Yeah, but if he's just a normal kid, what?

[1428] weird kid, too.

[1429] He imagined all those weird storylines.

[1430] So this is what I wanted to check before I said it.

[1431] He's autistic.

[1432] Okay.

[1433] He's an autistic boy.

[1434] But also this was an 88.

[1435] That's like early to be talking about autism.

[1436] Well, I guess the first time I heard about autism was Rain Man. Oh, right.

[1437] That kind of shine a light on that.

[1438] But do they even call it autism?

[1439] They did.

[1440] They did?

[1441] Okay.

[1442] Yeah.

[1443] And they used to use the term idiot savant.

[1444] I don't think they do anymore off the point.

[1445] No, you're not allowed to say that anymore.

[1446] Yeah, but yeah.

[1447] And you know, Rain Man's based on a real person and they've done two 60 minutes specials on the real life Rain Man and he lives in Utah and his dad takes him to the library every day and he reads two pages at the same time, one with his left eye and one with his right eye.

[1448] And he's read virtually every book in the library.

[1449] Really?

[1450] And he can tell you anything.

[1451] You can ask him what the was like on any given day in history you can ask him about the subway system and i mean it's insane what his brain can hold that's amazing and his first interview versus the next one because it's like a 20 year gap he learned all these social cues because leslie stalled it the piece and she said he seems like he's more you know i don't know what you'd call it and he goes well you know he's observed what he should do he doesn't necessarily he's not feeling the same thing you are but he knows what to do.

[1452] Yeah.

[1453] I mean, God, how do I say this without it being bad?

[1454] Just circling it back to Stevie Wonder and the Peababy.

[1455] Okay.

[1456] You're trying to tie all these things together.

[1457] Well, they are tied together.

[1458] Rain Man, Stevie Wonder and Peabody.

[1459] Sometimes when you think there are limitations, you're actually gaining something you, you know, and I think it's important to remember that instead of just like classifying, oh, this person has this, so they just can't do X, Y, and Z. That's not necessarily true.

[1460] Well, yeah, I've brought that up in reference to the guy that there was the Vanity Fair article about who became the big, a fun manager who predicted the bubble from the big short.

[1461] From the big short.

[1462] Yeah, Christian Bale's character.

[1463] Yeah, that guy had a glass eyeball from a young age.

[1464] So he attributed all of his social awkwardness to that glass eyeball.

[1465] Right.

[1466] And so he became a surgeon, then he became a traitor.

[1467] And, yeah, you do wonder if he had been labeled something if it would have limited what he would have tried or his parents would have steered him away from things.

[1468] Well, that's the how to become Batman.

[1469] Yeah.

[1470] You know, this all ties together so nicely.

[1471] I did that on purpose.

[1472] You did an artful job.

[1473] Thank you.

[1474] I didn't even know I was walking into this whole thing.

[1475] I know.

[1476] I played my role just like a dumb dumb.

[1477] Well, it's my birthday.

[1478] Okay.

[1479] So Denzel directed the sound of, man, I'm doing such a good job connecting.

[1480] I can't even believe it.

[1481] I'm so impressed with you.

[1482] So Denzel directed the sound of silence episode where she has her jaw wired shut so she doesn't speak.

[1483] And that's based on she said a real life situation that happened where a guy beat up a nurse post seizure.

[1484] He had a post epileptic and he beat up a nurse.

[1485] And she kind of said it very.

[1486] quickly and I was like, what?

[1487] Like, that's a thing that happens with epilepsy?

[1488] Because, you know, I have it.

[1489] Yeah.

[1490] Are you going to beat us up?

[1491] I mean, that was my fear.

[1492] So then I started looking up.

[1493] You can have, like, post -aggression.

[1494] Oh.

[1495] Seizures.

[1496] What if you injure me and it becomes news and people tell me to stop hanging out with you, like riding motorcycles?

[1497] Look and watch me bring it all back.

[1498] Do you think that's fair?

[1499] What if you beat me up really bad in your post -epaleptic rage?

[1500] And I have my mouth wired shut and then people go, you got to, you stop hanging out of the monica, I'll go, no. No, it's worth getting my jaw wired shut occasionally.

[1501] I'll keep at it just like the motorcycle.

[1502] Oh, I don't like this comparison very much.

[1503] But yeah, there's post -seizure hyperaggression.

[1504] It's kind of scary.

[1505] I wonder if I had any.

[1506] I don't think I did.

[1507] Boy, that reminds me of something crazy I saw.

[1508] I think I've told you about it.

[1509] When I lived in the one -bedroom apartment in Santa Monica, my neighbor on the ground floor, one apartment over, OD'd.

[1510] And I heard all the paramedics and everything.

[1511] So I am nosy.

[1512] So I went and looked, and the window was wide open.

[1513] So I watched the whole thing.

[1514] Hey, he was on the ground.

[1515] And he was kind of like, he was greenish or yellow.

[1516] Like, really his skin had become a different color.

[1517] And then they gave him a shot.

[1518] And they said, all right, put your knees on his chest.

[1519] They basically prepared the paramedics that he's going to get wild when he's.

[1520] comes out of this.

[1521] And so they had him pinned down when they did it.

[1522] Wow.

[1523] And he didn't really get wild.

[1524] He just was like, like when he came to, he was very much like, what is going on?

[1525] Where are these people in my apartment?

[1526] Yeah.

[1527] Yeah, I wonder if that's similar to this.

[1528] I bet because I think you're confused.

[1529] You're very confused.

[1530] I do remember that, like being so disoriented.

[1531] And if you're in a weird place and you feel like it's life or, yeah, fight or flight or flight, then you might, I guess, have aggression.

[1532] Oof.

[1533] What if you had to beat Molly up in bed?

[1534] Luckily, all the people that were there are much stronger than me. Well, I don't know about that.

[1535] Yeah.

[1536] I did carry some heavy stuff yesterday.

[1537] No state champs in that room, I don't think.

[1538] Nope.

[1539] Just me. Only one.

[1540] Okay, so a few of the Gray's records.

[1541] Longest running scripted primetime show currently airing.

[1542] How many episodes have they done?

[1543] 300 or something?

[1544] That's your guess.

[1545] Must be more than that.

[1546] Well, you normally, hit around 100 season five right if you're doing 24 a year yeah for season four or five i don't know how many they do a year they probably do like 22 or 24 they used to i know well but the first season was less so might be closer to like 370 or something 317 317 yeah and it's an hour long right so it's like doing 160 movies so i could have done 17 years of parenthood i could have watched 17 years.

[1547] It's a good show.

[1548] Okay.

[1549] So you guys talked a little bit about the pay inequity.

[1550] Women get paid 60 cents on the dollar in our industry.

[1551] Yeah, yeah.

[1552] I think it's like 87 cents just across the board or something like that, right?

[1553] What I found was compared to men in most professions, women make 80 cents to the dollar.

[1554] But then I guess Natalie Portman said in a 2017 interview, and I assume she did research on this.

[1555] She's pretty bright.

[1556] Yeah, exactly.

[1557] She went to have it.

[1558] In Hollywood, we're making 30 cents to the dollars, what she said.

[1559] So that was in 2017, but that's not very long ago.

[1560] That's bad.

[1561] It is bad.

[1562] It's a really complicated.

[1563] It's more complicated.

[1564] One aspect is misogyny.

[1565] That's for sure.

[1566] And feeling like women should just be grateful, that's a big part of it.

[1567] But also, the job requires negotiation.

[1568] It's not like a normal job where every single job you're negotiating.

[1569] negotiating the contract.

[1570] And I have observed lots of female friends of mine versus lots of male friends of mine, again, because this is an extension of misogyny, but I think because men are taught to, you know, know their value or something or just be more disagreeable.

[1571] It's more acceptable for men to be disagreeable.

[1572] At any rate, I have found that men are far more willing to just say no to projects or walk away, which is ultimately how you get your quote up.

[1573] No one does just give it to you out of the kindness of their heart.

[1574] So that's what makes it a little tricky.

[1575] Yeah.

[1576] But I also think what's a deeper issue is the roles for women are easier to replace.

[1577] Yes.

[1578] Yeah.

[1579] If you've got, if you're playing the girlfriend.

[1580] Yep.

[1581] And you try to stay in your ground.

[1582] They're like, well, we can get someone else to play the girlfriend.

[1583] Exactly.

[1584] Which is very true.

[1585] Yeah.

[1586] But there are people like Kristen, like if she's the lead of the movie, they're not replacing her.

[1587] and I've noticed when we first met she was a lot more acquiescent like she wouldn't risk which is healthy she'd rather do the job than not get that money which I think is a good perspective but at the same time everyone has to say no until they get what they think they deserve like Odom had to Leslie yeah he was great okay so she kept referring to her family and the people that they hung out with they hung out with the wise guys.

[1588] And I didn't know what that was.

[1589] Wise guys is a, is a euphemism for people in the mafia.

[1590] Mafia family, right?

[1591] Made guys, wise guys, guys, guys, guys.

[1592] Oh, guys guys guys?

[1593] Us guys.

[1594] Five guys.

[1595] Oh, my God, is five guys.

[1596] Five guys is mafia owned and operated.

[1597] So if you want to support the mafia.

[1598] Okay.

[1599] So I worked backwards today.

[1600] That was interesting.

[1601] This is going to be how you do it in your 33?

[1602] I think so.

[1603] 33rd year?

[1604] Yeah, especially because I was able to do lots of tie -ins.

[1605] How do you feel about 33 as a number?

[1606] I can live with it because it adds up to six.

[1607] I know.

[1608] Look.

[1609] You don't care.

[1610] I don't love it.

[1611] You don't love it.

[1612] No. But I'm going to be positive because I don't want to jinx myself or self -fulfilled my prophecy.

[1613] Uh -huh.

[1614] And say, it's cool.

[1615] It's two of the same number.

[1616] Yeah.

[1617] But if I'm being honest, I'm scared.

[1618] Yeah, a lot of threes.

[1619] So, the most bank robberies, that quote is from the town.

[1620] Oh, it is?

[1621] Yes, there are over 300 bank robberies in Boston every year and a one square mile neighborhood in Boston called Charlestown.

[1622] Mm -hmm.

[1623] Has produced more bank and armored car robberies than anywhere in the U .S. So that's the quote in the town.

[1624] Uh -huh.

[1625] Now, it's not really corroborated anywhere, but mainly.

[1626] because I don't think they want it to be.

[1627] Okay.

[1628] Boss and police say they can't verify it.

[1629] Oh, okay.

[1630] I feel good about that number.

[1631] Okay.

[1632] Yeah, I just think they're not releasing data.

[1633] Very much, yeah.

[1634] And that just circles back to the town, my boyfriend.

[1635] Your boyfriend, my birthday.

[1636] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1637] There we did it.

[1638] All right.

[1639] Boy, did you sewed that up beautifully.

[1640] Put a big old bow on it.

[1641] Birthday bow.

[1642] Well, happy birthday.

[1643] Thank you.

[1644] I'm going to go visit my P -Baby now.

[1645] Okay.

[1646] You're going to hold your B -Baby?

[1647] I guess this is a mother's job, right, to do, like, touch gross babies and stuff?

[1648] I think the move in order to snuggle P -Babby would be to put P -Babby in a Ziploc bag, in a gallon -sized Ziploc bag.

[1649] Oh, my God, like I do when I was a little, I told you about that, right?

[1650] When I was younger, I would fill up baggies with water and pretend they were my babies, and I would carry them around, and sometimes I would draw faces on them.

[1651] I don't think I knew that.

[1652] Yeah, it was like, oh, wow.

[1653] And then my mom really hated it because there were just bags of water all over the house.

[1654] And you probably became emotionally attached to all that.

[1655] Of course.

[1656] Yeah.

[1657] I mainly did it in the bags that like, okay, if you're getting produce and you tear off those bags.

[1658] Mm -hmm.

[1659] Oh, the kind you put, yeah.

[1660] They're long.

[1661] Yes, they are.

[1662] So that was good for holding a baby.

[1663] Oh, but probably prone to leak.

[1664] I lost a few.

[1665] Yeah, I guess they didn't have the, did they have the gallon size zip locks at that?

[1666] time or you just, they weren't at your disposal.

[1667] I don't think they were at my disposal.

[1668] Okay.

[1669] My mom would have been really mad if I wasted those.

[1670] Yeah, that's money down the toilet.

[1671] Yeah.

[1672] So it had to be grocery bags.

[1673] But I could do that with my pee baby.

[1674] Yeah.

[1675] All right.

[1676] I love you.

[1677] Love you.

[1678] Happy birthday.

[1679] Thanks.

[1680] Follow Armchair expert on the Wondry app, Amazon music, or wherever you get your podcast.

[1681] You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert Early and and ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

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