Haunted by the Ghost of Michael Jackson

[0] Hey, it's Michael.

[1] This week, we're revisiting our favorite episodes of the year, listening back, and then hearing what's happened in the time since they first ran.

[2] Today, confronting the real Michael Jackson.

[3] It's Monday, December 30th.

[4] From the New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro.

[5] This is the Daily.

[6] Today.

[7] For decades, despite a swirl of allegations around him, Michael Jackson earned the world's admiration, bewilderment, and pity.

[8] Times culture critic Wesley Morris on the moment that ended for him.

[9] It's Friday, March 8th.

[10] Wesley, this is the second time in two weeks that we've had you on to talk about culture.

[11] I know, aren't you sick of me already?

[12] Not at all.

[13] Okay.

[14] What do we need to talk about this week?

[15] It's probably leaving Neverland.

[16] This is Michael Jackson documentary.

[17] Not a trailer or even a single clip of this new documentary has been released ahead of its debut today, but that has not slowed the buzz behind it.

[18] I became aware of this movie as it was making its way toward Sundance in January.

[19] It's probably right now the most talked about film at Sundance.

[20] One of the hottest tickets at Sundance is also one of the most controversial.

[21] I also knew, on the other hand, that there were these camps of people who were going to try to stop the movie from being screened.

[22] Because, well, because it's about Michael Jackson, and it's about some terrible things that Michael Jackson is being accused of having done.

[23] This morning, police in Utah are preparing for possible protests at the Sundance Film Festival.

[24] And there is a strong camp of Michael Jackson fans and supporters that do not want lies in their eyes spread about him.

[25] Heightened police presence in Park City this morning.

[26] Following reports of death threats against the director of the doc.

[27] The film about the beloved icon, so contentious, police are on high alert and bracing for protests.

[28] The Jackson Estate has denounced the documentary as defamatory.

[29] And before the movie even got there, before anyone had even seen it, there was this sense that it was going to be controversial because it was going to force us to reassess our relationship with Michael Jackson.

[30] And what about you?

[31] How are you approaching the idea of this movie?

[32] With dread, I mean, I knew I was going to watch it, but I also knew that I was bringing with me some dread.

[33] I loved Michael Jackson as a kid And it wasn't just so much that I loved the music Although there was that I loved looking at Michael Jackson I loved how fascinating His physical appearance was And I can't go back to being a 7, 8, 9, 10 year old Can you try just for a minute?

[34] I mean, I can go back to telling you stories about Yeah, just place me a little bit In the life of the young Wesley Morris Well, you know, I grew up poor in Philadelphia And we didn't have a lot of money but we had a lot of money for Michael Jackson.

[35] We bought Thriller.

[36] I think we had two copies of Thriller because one got warped and I was lucky enough.

[37] And that's not okay.

[38] Well, no. I mean, I can remember sitting, you know, it was a, the album would fold out.

[39] And it's Michael Jackson lying down in what could only be called like a Sears photo studio portrait pose.

[40] He's wearing a white suit with a black shirt and he's got a tiger on his knee, like a tiger cub on his.

[41] And his hair is really curly, and his nose is straighter than any black person's nose I had ever seen.

[42] He's got these big, bright eyes.

[43] And I just was so drawn to how perfect looking this person was.

[44] How present was this attachment to Michael Jackson at this tender age?

[45] Well, I assumed that everybody felt this way about Michael Jackson.

[46] I assumed that everybody had bought a copy of thriller.

[47] and, you know, I go to people's houses and be like, wait, where's thriller?

[48] I mean, nobody wants this Kenny Rogers record.

[49] Where's thriller?

[50] My dad took me somewhere, and before we got to the house once, he's like, Wesley, no. You are not going near the albums this time, and you're not asking about Michael Jackson.

[51] And I just remember thinking that he was the most important person in the world.

[52] So there's looking at Michael Jackson, and then there's experiencing Michael Jackson.

[53] And that experience I had with the album cover, the album would have been out for about a year.

[54] It's 1983, and I'm watching this Motown 25 special, which is a gathering of all of Motown's greatest artists.

[55] And at some point, the Jackson's come out, and they're all together.

[56] All the grown brothers, they're performing.

[57] They do.

[58] Their most famous songs, Motown is basically paying tribute to itself.

[59] And then at some point, they thank everybody, they leave the stage, and Michael Jackson stays behind.

[60] Oh, you're beautiful.

[61] It's for magic moments, with all my brothers, including Jermaine.

[62] He tells the audience, I like those songs a lot.

[63] I like the old hits.

[64] But especially.

[65] Especially, I like the new songs.

[66] Fasting your seatbelts, basically, here comes the next 50 years.

[67] It was just a new sound.

[68] It pulled in rock.

[69] It pulled in African rhythms.

[70] And he is leaping onto his toes.

[71] He is.

[72] swinging his leg up in kind of what I can only call like a chicken flash.

[73] And at some point, after you see all this other dancing that you've never really seen done in quite this way before, he starts gliding.

[74] And now we know that this backward glide is called the moonwalk.

[75] I was in my mother's bedroom watching this, and I could remember just sitting there in just absolute awe you could feel it as you watched it.

[76] This man was changing everything.

[77] In terms of historical American events, you know, on the one hand, you have the moon landing, and then you have the moonwalk.

[78] And I would argue there's probably no other artist who is as important to where popular music currently is than Michael Jackson.

[79] You can hear him actually sampled in other people's music.

[80] You can hear other artists who've built entire careers artists you probably wouldn't even have if there was no Michael Jackson Justin Timberlake The Weekend Britney Spear Bruno Mars I mean there's just like a foundational elemental aspect to the way he changed what music sounded like and how we respond it to.

[81] Like, the dancing that we do is in some ways, many ways, Michael Jackson dancing.

[82] So I'm thinking about all of this as I am dragging myself through the winter weather to go watch this movie.

[83] That's a lot to carry with you into a screening, a movie theater.

[84] Your childhood, all of American culture.

[85] That's not nothing.

[86] No, it's not nothing.

[87] But it's weird, though, because I carry it with me all the time.

[88] The reason that it was so heavy, and I think the reason that a lot of people are experiencing this heaviness and this dread about this movie is like, I'm carrying around baggage I didn't even know I had and then all of a sudden it feels like baggage.

[89] You know, it feels like this thing you've been lugging around with you all these years, this love of Michael Jackson and now like this rocket ship to Bliss that is not an easy thing to be willing to let go of.

[90] Well, talk me through this.

[91] You have to sit down and watch this movie.

[92] Yeah.

[93] Where did you watch it?

[94] The first time I watched it I watched it in an office.

[95] It was basically a conference room at HBO.

[96] They showed me the movie.

[97] I was alone in a nice little corner conference room with a TV and, you know, it was me and my notepad and all my baggage.

[98] And it was funny because I watched it by myself and I realized once I was there and the door was closed and this thing was starting that, like, I didn't want to be there anymore.

[99] I just, I looked around and I'm like, I don't want to do this.

[100] I don't want to do it.

[101] But, you know, I'm a professional.

[102] Like, what does it look like if I over?

[103] open the door and ask if we can stop.

[104] And we stop, but the ride had already left the bay.

[105] So I stayed, and I watched the whole thing, all four hours.

[106] And what's the first thing that you notice about the film?

[107] Oh, my God, it's so quiet.

[108] It's really quiet.

[109] I think when I was with him, he was happy.

[110] He was Michael.

[111] Yeah, you don't...

[112] Kissing animals, you know.

[113] He was at the peak.

[114] of his creativity and he was at the peak of his success.

[115] It's a lot of string music.

[116] But what you really are aware of is just that you're going to hear two people and the people in their lives talk about their relationship to Michael Jackson.

[117] He was already larger than life.

[118] And then he likes you.

[119] And who were these two people?

[120] One of them is Wade Robson.

[121] Wade won a dancing conference.

[122] Pete Robson met Michael Jackson as a Michael Jackson impersonate.

[123] I started to like Michael, and I started copying the moves, and that's how I started dancing.

[124] I would say the best one I have ever seen in my life.

[125] Talking about like a six -year -old kid.

[126] Wow.

[127] I want to be a star and keep everybody happy while I'm doing it.

[128] He was good early.

[129] And the other is James Safechuck, who began as a child actor.

[130] He was cast in a Michael Jackson commercial.

[131] Mr. Jackson.

[132] And that's how they met.

[133] Looking for me. I was prepared for this movie to begin with the allegations, right?

[134] I was prepared for them to just be like, here's what Michael Jackson did.

[135] But that's not really how it goes.

[136] We went into the closet and we're looking at his stuff and told me I can pick out a jacket.

[137] I could have that.

[138] It would be mine.

[139] I picked the thriller jacket.

[140] How it goes is each person who speaks speaks as though they're in the present moment that they're speaking about.

[141] And I took it home.

[142] I worked to the grocery store.

[143] It felt great.

[144] Out of all the kids in the world, he chose me to be his friend.

[145] And he's holding my hand.

[146] I was really struck by how, even though you know what's coming, and this is sort of a comfort in a way for, I don't know, I would imagine for lots of people who were dreading watching this movie, they're talking about, as children how much they loved Michael Jackson.

[147] The days were filled with playing tag, watching movies.

[148] He taught me how to do the moonwalk.

[149] They got to do the thing that I sat on my living room floor.

[150] Dreaming about.

[151] Dreaming about.

[152] I came on at the end of the song band.

[153] I had a bad outfit on that was just like his.

[154] It seemed as a kid so fun being one of the kids in Michael Jackson's orbit.

[155] And so I would dance we like side moonwalked and did a few moves together.

[156] I got to relive that for a little tiny bit.

[157] And then they start talking about the turn the relationship takes into a sexual relationship.

[158] I was seven, seven years old when this began.

[159] And what do they describe?

[160] And I recognize that these are really traumatic memories that they're talking about.

[161] Well, I mean, all kinds of things that are graphic in nature, masturbation, oral sex, lots of kissing.

[162] And you also learn how Michael Jackson was kind of fostering these relationships and keeping the boys close to him.

[163] You know, he started talking about how much he loves me, what this is, is us, how we show our love for each other.

[164] that other people are ignorant and they're stupid and they'd never understand if they ever found out what we were doing about this sexual stuff that he and I'd be pulled apart and that we'd never be able to see each other again and that he and I would go to jail for the rest of our lives you start to think that your parents are bad and that Michael is good so you're seeing the mechrist by which he is creating proximity and loyalty to these boys.

[165] There's a kind of choreography at work here.

[166] You also learn that Michael told them not to go to school, that he would be the person who would teach the kids things.

[167] The psychological gamesmanship that he deployed in these relationships is also shocking.

[168] You know, I liked jewelry, and I liked it as a kid, and I think that.

[169] And eventually, you get to this.

[170] point where James Safechuck is telling this story about Michael Jackson taking him shopping for rings and rings yeah like like wedding rings like we're going to get married rings and the ring is nice it has a row of diamonds with a gold band you know there's always a moment whenever I'm watching or listening or reading anything, you're waiting for this moment for something in you to change.

[171] And for me, it was the story about these rings.

[172] We would go buy them at jewelry stores.

[173] Basically, Michael Jackson and James Safechuck go to a jewelry store.

[174] The assumption is that Michael's going to buy James a ring and Michael's going to have his own ring and they're going to, you know, exchange rings and vows.

[175] Adult and child.

[176] Yes, adult and child.

[177] And at some point during this purchase, the salesperson, I don't know, probably seems a little bit skeptical.

[178] And Michael Jackson says that the purchase is, oh, it's for a woman.

[179] It's for a woman.

[180] And we would pretend like they were for somebody else and, like, for a female.

[181] But he would pretend like my small hand fit whatever female we were buying it for.

[182] You know in this moment that Michael Jackson knows the difference between right and wrong because he lies.

[183] My hands are shaking, just holding them.

[184] Now, James, by the way, in this moment in the movie, is holding the ring.

[185] He's got an adult hand now, because he's a grown man, and the ring won't fit over his finger because it's a child's ring.

[186] We had this mock.

[187] wedding ceremony.

[188] We did this in his bedroom and we like filled out some vows.

[189] It's like we're bonded forever.

[190] It felt good.

[191] I don't know, man. I really, really, really was not prepared for that.

[192] So in that moment, your vision of Michael Jackson is what?

[193] Is shattered?

[194] Is altered?

[195] Is altered?

[196] It's definitely, it's definitely changed and it's definitely complicated.

[197] I remember writing down in my notebook, this is it.

[198] This is, I'm, I'm out.

[199] I'm out.

[200] Out of what?

[201] I'm out of the Michael Jackson house.

[202] Hmm.

[203] And it's not, it's more complicated than that, but that is definitely the moment that makes it hard to make excuses, right?

[204] I think for me, the plausible deniability way of living with Michael Jackson gets really, really tough.

[205] We'll be right back.

[206] I wonder why this moment shattered you, because these allegations against Michael Jackson have been floating around now for decades.

[207] Oh, man. I think because for a long time Michael Jackson controlled this story, he had all the power.

[208] The press has made up so much god -awful, horrifying stories that are completely appalled.

[209] I know.

[210] Completely appalling.

[211] So with the first set of allegations in 1993, he winds up talking to Oprah Winfrey in a hugely watched, desperately anticipated television interview.

[212] And, I mean, she does everything she can do.

[213] Is your skin lighter because you don't like being black?

[214] Did he ever beat you?

[215] Do you go out?

[216] Do you date?

[217] She asks all the questions.

[218] Are you pleased now with the way you look?

[219] I'm never pleased with anything.

[220] I'm a perfectionist.

[221] Yeah.

[222] It's part of who I am.

[223] And he's got some kind of answer for it And I think that we really, really wanted to believe him.

[224] And what's the story he tells?

[225] Well, the story he tells is like, I like kids, I was lonely, I don't think there's anything wrong with my relationship with children.

[226] People wonder why I always have children around because I find the thing that I never had through them.

[227] You know, Disneyland, amusement parks, arcade games.

[228] I adore all that stuff because when I was little, It was always work, work, work, from one concert to the next.

[229] The story he told Oprah was the story we wanted, and the thing that would let us keep going back and listening to Dangerous, which was the album that he had at the time.

[230] It made it a lot easier to go back to regularly schedule programming.

[231] He told a story that fit into our story of him, which is a lonely man who at his core is still a boy.

[232] Yeah, that's the story of Michael Jackson.

[233] There were times when I had great times with my brothers, pillow fights and things, but I used to always cry from loneliness.

[234] You did?

[235] Beginning at what age?

[236] Oh, very little.

[237] Eight, nine.

[238] It was, this is clearly a person who is suffering and has been damaged in some way.

[239] What do you want the world to know about you most?

[240] I ask Liz that of you.

[241] What do you want them to know?

[242] To be loved, I just simply want to be loved wherever I go all over the world because I love people of all races from my heart with children.

[243] I think that the difference between what happens in that initial conversation with Oprah Winfrey and what's happening in this movie is that it's a resting of control of the narrative, right?

[244] It is these two men telling you what happened to them and you take their stories and you put them alongside Michael Jackson's and you sit with it.

[245] And I'd been waiting for somebody to come along and tell me a story that I could sit alongside Michael Jackson's, to confirm a suspicion that I'd had all this time and didn't want to acknowledge that I was carrying around all this stuff all these years and not really knowing what to do with them.

[246] Wesley, will this film and the revelations that it contains, will this change the legacy of Michael Jackson?

[247] Yes.

[248] I think the people who want to hear the stories these men are telling, I think the people who watch this movie, I think the people who've ambiently suspected that something like what's alleged in this movie happened, those people will think about Michael Jackson in a different way.

[249] But Michael Jackson's legacy is bigger than Michael Jackson, right?

[250] Like, Michael Jackson is this human being who made stuff that is way bigger than he is.

[251] And that stuff is so much a part of the culture, like, on an atomic level.

[252] Right?

[253] You can't, it can't be extracted.

[254] We can't cancel Michael Jackson because canceling Michael Jackson means canceling America in some way.

[255] Cancelling some part of ourselves.

[256] Like a huge part of not just our love of music, but our sense of who we are as a people.

[257] I mean, the tragic thing about Michael Jackson is an American tragic thing.

[258] It is a story about race.

[259] It is a story about growing up poor and becoming extremely rich.

[260] It is a story about sexuality and gender and racial transformation in your physical body.

[261] I think that he means too much to delete or cancel.

[262] I mean, you make one thing go away, but you're still dealing with all this other stuff.

[263] I just feel like he's so much bigger than what he physically was.

[264] And I think the stories these men are telling need to go in the space that we culturally have been waiting to put a story like this in based on everything.

[265] we already knew about Michael Jackson.

[266] Wesley, it has felt to me, like with these other Me Too stories, there's been a very clear path to follow.

[267] Somebody should get fired, they do get fired, somebody should go to jail, they do go to jail.

[268] Oh, I see where you're going.

[269] Somebody gets justice.

[270] But that can't happen here.

[271] Michael Jackson is dead.

[272] And he's been tried and acquitted.

[273] And you can't, as you're going, you just said, cancel his influence.

[274] So what could change?

[275] Well, he can't change because he's dead.

[276] The music can't change because it's already been made and we've thoroughly absorbed it.

[277] I think the thing that has to change is us.

[278] We can change, but I also wonder whether or not the thing that we should be taking away from this entire problem with respect to Michael Jackson and Wade Robson and James Safechuck.

[279] is this concept of justice.

[280] There's no satisfying outcome for this.

[281] This is a tragedy, and we have to accept it as a tragedy.

[282] And I don't think the way we accept a tragedy is by covering our ears when you hear a Michael Jackson song.

[283] We're past that now.

[284] I think what we have to do is figure out a way to live with a thing that we've been living with this entire time.

[285] We have to be able to hold space that incorporates the bad stuff with the great stuff.

[286] It's the only way this is going to work because this is not going to stop happening.

[287] And it's obviously not just famous people.

[288] It's everybody.

[289] It's coaches, it's priests, it's politicians.

[290] It doesn't work to just make people go away and not deal with the sort of root problem of this behavior.

[291] And I think with Michael Jackson, I think that the reason the what do we do now is so dissatisfying is because there's nothing to do.

[292] But listen and move through the world aware that this person did this.

[293] And it can't be undone.

[294] These guys don't get their childhoods back.

[295] There's no jail to put this man in.

[296] You know, there's no place to send him.

[297] And the work is on us.

[298] And I think part of the reason that people want either an easy answer or don't want to know anything is because we don't want to do the work.

[299] It's hard work.

[300] The work of just living with it.

[301] the hard work of trauma.

[302] And that's what we're talking about.

[303] That's just called being a human being.

[304] Wesley, thank you very much.

[305] Thanks for having me. We'll be right back.

[306] Wesley, it has been almost a year since this episode aired.

[307] During that time, what has been your relationship to Michael Jackson?

[308] Michael, it has been a lonely 10 months.

[309] It has been just abject misery.

[310] I have not played a Michael Jackson song.

[311] in 10 months, and it is the longest period in my adult life that I have not chosen to play a Michael Jackson song, but I don't need to volunteer to play Michael Jackson song at all.

[312] What do you mean?

[313] So here's what happened to me back in February, the weekend that this Leaving Neverland documentary premieres on HBO, I find myself at a very large, important music.

[314] in New York City.

[315] And I'm standing talking to my friend outside the gift shop, and I hear a song.

[316] It's, don't stop till you get enough.

[317] This is at about 11 .45 a .m. on a Saturday afternoon.

[318] And I was sort of like, well, nobody has any responsibility not to play this song.

[319] But I'm conflicted.

[320] I'm like, well, what do I do?

[321] I can't just stand here and, like, while this song is playing and not acknowledge that this thing is happening, I'm just going to start keeping track of the number of times I hear Michael Jackson in public.

[322] And so I went over to the cashier where the music was coming from and I shazammed it, which is basically how you find out what a song is that you're listening to that you can't identify.

[323] And I have been shazamming Michael Jackson songs since February.

[324] I just want to say, I've got quite a list.

[325] I've got quite a list.

[326] I've got quite a list.

[327] I hear it in the subway.

[328] I hear him in the airport.

[329] I hear him when I check out at CVS.

[330] I was hearing Michael Jackson songs every day.

[331] I mean, this is pretty interesting, Wesley.

[332] You are making a good faith effort to abstain from Michael Jackson, and you're basically being undermined by everyone around you who is playing him.

[333] And I wonder what you make of that.

[334] I think we have done all of the processing with Michael Jackson that I think we are willing to do.

[335] And I think our verdict as a society and a culture is.

[336] You know what?

[337] I think we can be of two minds about this.

[338] I think we can know or suspect or not believe at all that he did these things to these boys.

[339] And also, continue to love and listen to and dance to the music.

[340] At the end of the day, this man means too much to too many people.

[341] We're not ready to let this man go.

[342] Wesley, thank you.

[343] very much once again for coming in.

[344] Thanks for having me.