S18 E11: (1/2) [Tyler] Don't Tell Anyone

[0] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to something was wrong early and ad -free right now.

[1] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[2] I'm Dan Tversky.

[3] In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York.

[4] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast.

[5] What's the answer?

[6] And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

[7] Hysterical.

[8] A new podcast from Wondry and Pineapple Street Studios.

[9] Binge all episodes of hysterical early and ad -free on Wondery Plus.

[10] Something Was Wrong is intended for mature audiences.

[11] It discusses topics that can be upsetting and triggering, such as emotional, physical, and sexual violence, suicide, child abuse, and murder.

[12] Content warnings for each episode are at the top of episode notes.

[13] And confidential and free resources for survivors can be found linked in our episode notes, as well as on our website, something was wrong .com slash resources.

[14] Some survivor names have been changed for anonymity purposes.

[15] Testimony shared by guests on the show is their own and does not necessarily reflect the views of myself, something was wrong, broken cycle media, or wondering.

[16] The podcast and any linked materials should not be construed as medical advice, nor is any of the information a substitute for professional medical expertise or treatment.

[17] Thank you so much for listening.

[18] You think you know me, you don't know me well.

[19] Hi, my name is Tyler Porter.

[20] I am 27.

[21] I've been tattooing for almost nine years.

[22] I started in this industry because I've been drawing my whole life.

[23] Just wanted to do something art -related with my career.

[24] My mom tells me this story all the time about when I was two.

[25] I was really crazy.

[26] All two -year -olds are crazy, but I was abnormally crazy.

[27] They actually thought I had epilepsy at first because I would have these seizures all throughout the day but it turns out that it was just me getting so pissed off that I would hold my breath until I passed out and started to seize.

[28] My mom could never find a way to like get me to calm down but she would have me draw on the wall that was the only time I'd be in my zone.

[29] I think a large part of the reason why I was like that as a kid was because I was trans and I wasn't able to articulate that.

[30] So when I was 13, I was able to start transitioning and that's when I started to relax a bit and was able to be more of myself.

[31] Now I'm a complete opposite.

[32] I'm super mellow.

[33] Thank you for sharing that.

[34] Do you feel comfortable if I ask you a few questions about being trans?

[35] Yeah, absolutely.

[36] Can you explain what the decision to transition was like for you?

[37] Everyone's different, but for me, I was pretty textbook transgender.

[38] I guess I should more say like transsexual for me personally because I truly want to change my biological sex.

[39] When I was a little kid, I'm talking two years old.

[40] I would tell my mom and my dad, I'm going to grow up to be a boy one day.

[41] And I even asked, why don't I have a penis yet?

[42] As I got older, not that my parents were ever purposely trying to shame me. They're incredibly supportive parents.

[43] But back in the 90s, when that was happening, they're like, no, no, you're a girl.

[44] You've got to act this way.

[45] Unintentionally, it kind of added some shame to it.

[46] So I stopped talking about it and was trying to conform as much as possible, but I was so visibly uncomfortable in it.

[47] I would look at myself in the mirror, and especially when puberty was starting.

[48] I mean, it felt like my body was betraying me. every day.

[49] I'd cry anytime I had to wear girl clothes.

[50] And then when I was 13, I finally came out to my dad.

[51] They kind of always just thought I was a lesbian.

[52] One day he sat me down was like, your friend who at the time was a girl, and he's like, are you attracted to her?

[53] And I started crying.

[54] And I was like, yes, but that's not all it is.

[55] I don't know how to explain it.

[56] This is like 2000s.

[57] People didn't even know what being transgender was.

[58] I had no words to describe it.

[59] So I was just like, I don't know.

[60] I just feel like I've always been a boy.

[61] I feel like I'm in the wrong body.

[62] I don't know how to explain it.

[63] I know I sound crazy.

[64] And he was like, no, I get it.

[65] Luckily, he's gay.

[66] So, like, he's in the community.

[67] He's like, I think you're transgender.

[68] And he was telling me about it.

[69] I was like, yes, that's exactly what we were in the middle of Indiana and the Midwest.

[70] So there was not a lot of resources for like transitioning, especially as a minor.

[71] I started transitioning hormonally.

[72] My top surgery was so much easier because of it.

[73] I didn't have to get a double mastectomy.

[74] I was able to get like a gyno surgery.

[75] Ever since then, I've been much happier, feel at home in my body.

[76] It's a huge relief to not be living in constant dysphoria every day.

[77] I am so thankful that I was able to have a supportive family and to be able to start my transition when I did and I don't regret a thing.

[78] What do you think the most common misconception is about trans persons?

[79] I have a lot, I think, since it's been a hot topic issue in the media, the big one honestly is people transitioning when they're young.

[80] There's this weird thing where people are trying to paint it as some form of grooming as if parents are just out there trying to force their children to transition.

[81] My parents never tried to force it on me. They went the most moderate path where they were really trying to get me to not be trans, not on purpose really, but they were just like, no, no, no, you're a girl.

[82] It just never worked.

[83] The only treatment for it is through transition.

[84] I understand that there's issues with consent on some things when it comes to age and stuff, But when you're talking about a child's own body, I do think children at a certain age do have a level of autonomy over their own body and can make choices on their own behalf.

[85] Even cisgendered men who have gyna comastia, which is where young men develop breast tissue, if they're allowed to get surgery to remove their breasts, why am I not allowed to?

[86] Or circumcision, young boys definitely don't get a say in that.

[87] When it comes to a minor's own body, I do think you have to take into consideration some level of autonomy.

[88] I know it's a nuanced conversation, but I really don't think anyone's trying to groom their children into transitioning.

[89] I appreciate you so much for sharing and being willing.

[90] So if you don't mind talking a little bit about where you were at leading up to lion's paw tattoo and what the early days were like.

[91] The first shop I worked at, I did my apprenticeship there.

[92] There was a five -year contract.

[93] There was a non -compete contract, which it's not enforceable, but I honored it.

[94] I'm thankful for it because it definitely made me a stronger person, but at the time, it was a very not good work environment for me. It was like if you turned a tattoo shop into a factory, overworked, underpaid, toxic work dynamics, and also it's a weird thing where it's, we're technically self -employed.

[95] So you should be getting certain benefits of being self -employed.

[96] You get to choose your own hours.

[97] You get to have some level of autonomy with that, since we're just subcontracting.

[98] but we had a schedule made for us that we had to abide by, which was very grueling at times.

[99] We were not paid consistently.

[100] Sometimes they would just pay us whenever they were in.

[101] Sometimes they wouldn't.

[102] Sometimes if they went on a three -week vacation, we just went without pay.

[103] There was a lot more to it than that, but it resulted in me having a lot of anxiety, and I also developed a pretty bad alcohol problem.

[104] I ended up having to go to rehab for it.

[105] And when I got done with rehab, I had to go right back to work.

[106] I relapsed again.

[107] I eventually quit, and it was a few months shy of the five -year non -compete contract.

[108] I had mixed up the time frame and thought that my contract was over.

[109] So I tried to get a job at Lionspaugh, which was within the 25 -mile radius of the contract.

[110] Next thing you know, I'm getting threatened that he's going to take me a court, which, again, it's not enforceable.

[111] But without going too much into it, this guy was the owner, pretty intimidating guy with a large group of people who actually legitimately could have caused me some harm.

[112] So I was like, I'm just going to stay out of it.

[113] So I didn't work for three months, got into a lot of debt, which was pretty awful.

[114] I got through that, then ended up moving to Lion's Paw Tattoo.

[115] My current boss, Jimmy, is just the most wonderful guy.

[116] We always have a really amazing crew.

[117] It's such a warm, supportive environment.

[118] It's really helped me grow a lot as a person.

[119] My mental health really improved when I got there.

[120] I right away was able to sober up.

[121] It was only like a month in that I got sober and have not drank since.

[122] I was able to save up enough money to pay back all my debt.

[123] It's been a wonderful experience working at Lionspaugh.

[124] I was there for a couple years when I got the opportunity to work at Blood Orange Tattoo with Archie Bronson.

[125] I met Archie.

[126] It was kind of like an online thing at first, right?

[127] I don't know who followed who first, but at some point I realized that we were following each other and that he was interacting with my stuff.

[128] I'll give him the credit where it to do.

[129] I mean, like his style, he did glitchy realism.

[130] It's a cool style.

[131] trendy so it doesn't surprise me that a lot of people flock to his work but he comment on tattoos that I did like wow this is amazing this is like pretty big name artist in the industry that's liking my stuff this is really cool I was a little guy in a big pond and so getting that validation from a much bigger name artist was really flattering and exciting and I followed him pretty closely and like all the stuff that he posted online was very in line with the values that I have we were following each other during 2020 we was very pro BLM and on top of the COVID stuff which I really appreciated.

[132] He was very outspoken about these things.

[133] I was attracted to that because me being a trans person coming from a very diverse and colorful family and having lots of diverse friend groups, it was nice seeing a big name artist that quite frankly didn't seem like a piece of shit, at least at the time.

[134] One day he had messaged me and was like, hey, you want to come and hang out and have like a drawing night at this bar?

[135] And I was like, yeah, I would love to.

[136] I don't drink, but I'll come to the bar, I'll draw and hang out with you.

[137] I drove down there.

[138] It was kind of mundane, if I'm going to be honest.

[139] I couldn't tell if it was because there was a little bit of a language barrier.

[140] I wasn't that familiar with a fairly thick Russian accent.

[141] He was nice.

[142] No inherent red flags.

[143] He did kind of remind me of someone from my childhood who had assaulted me. But I've had that feeling before and have not always been right.

[144] So I was like, I can't judge this person.

[145] They seem like a nice guy.

[146] I can't just assume that this guy is a predator based on nothing.

[147] So I ignored that.

[148] A few days later, he asked to do it again.

[149] it was probably four or five times.

[150] We'd hung out.

[151] And that's when he told me, I'm looking to open up a shop.

[152] This is why I wanted to hang out with you so that I could get a feel for you and see if maybe you'd be a good fit, art -wise, and everything.

[153] We seem to align on our values.

[154] I would like to have you at my shop if you're interested.

[155] Of course, I was immensely flattered.

[156] Not only is this artist liking my stuff, wanting to hang out with me, but now he's wanting to hire me, personally, out of all the people that he could hire.

[157] He's wanting to hire me. Like I said, I mean, I love Lionspot.

[158] That's like my family.

[159] And my current boss, Jimmy, I consider him to be like a father.

[160] He has done so much for me. I told Archie that.

[161] I'm incredibly flattered.

[162] I would love to do this.

[163] But honestly, I don't know if I'm really ready to leave the shop that I'm at.

[164] I'm very bonded with everyone there.

[165] Maybe I could do guest spots or something, or maybe I could even work part time.

[166] And he was like, well, let me just tell you what I'm offering.

[167] He gave me the whole business model idea that he had.

[168] I was weighing my options.

[169] I talked to my girlfriend about it.

[170] And there were some benefits.

[171] She worked in a similar area So we could carpool I could make probably a little bit more money I got a slightly higher percentage Working with an artist of his caliber With his following It'll teach me a lot about How to charge properly for tattoos Because I have an issue where I undercharge a lot Maybe this will be good to build my confidence Like if he can do it Why Can't I kind of thing He can coach me through it He's got a much bigger following I can network better Get my name out there So it did seem like a really good opportunity And I remembered that when I started working at Lionspaw, my boss, Jimmy, had told me there's going to be a day where it's time for you to leave and you're going to get an opportunity.

[172] I never want to get in the way of that.

[173] So when it is time, you can always come and tell me, I'm going to support you.

[174] And even when you leave, I'll always be there.

[175] Have me as a resource.

[176] You can always reach out and you can always come back.

[177] I just want you to follow your heart.

[178] So when I had that offer from Archie, I was like, this must be my time.

[179] I still tried to be like, maybe I can just do part time.

[180] And he was like, well, I'll give you a bigger cut if you just do full time.

[181] And I was like, yeah, all right, well, I guess this is goodbye to Lions Paw.

[182] So I went to Lions Paw, told him I was going to be moving.

[183] Everyone was very excited for me. Of course, we were all sad.

[184] I hung out with the lion's paw crew a lot.

[185] It was always staying connected with them.

[186] Before Blood Orange was actually truly built, there was one day where he was picking out a spot for it.

[187] And he had found a location, so he had me drive down to come look at it.

[188] I was like, yeah, this is awesome.

[189] One problem, though, We are literally within 200 feet of another shop.

[190] Another shop that's been open for a long time that's got a big name in the industry.

[191] So I was like, you should probably reach out to them and make sure that's okay.

[192] And he was like, well, we're going to be a private studio.

[193] It's not like we're going to be taking their foot traffic or anything.

[194] We have our own clients.

[195] And I was like, it's just kind of the right thing to do to make sure that's okay.

[196] I'm like, I would really appreciate it if you just talk to him.

[197] He's like, yeah, yeah, I'll do that.

[198] Even when the shop opened up, I was like, hey, did you talk to him?

[199] They're okay with it.

[200] And he was like, oh, yeah, I talked to him.

[201] They're fine.

[202] And then every day when I'd walk from the shop to my car, I would see them and wave and they would ignore me. Foreshadowing, he did not do that.

[203] I found that out after all this stuff blew up a year and a half later or something, that he never actually talked to the shop.

[204] They had never talked to him before.

[205] And some of the people there were kind of mad about it.

[206] And that was really frustrating because they don't know me, so they're probably just assuming that I was like, yeah, fuck that shop.

[207] We're just going to open up right next to him and take all their business.

[208] I'm Dan Tiberski.

[209] In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school.

[210] school in Leroy, New York.

[211] I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

[212] I'm like, stop fucking around.

[213] She's like, I can't.

[214] A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[215] Like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls.

[216] With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low.

[217] Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[218] Well, you were holding something back intentionally.

[219] Yeah, yeah.

[220] Well, yeah.

[221] No, it's hysteria.

[222] It's all in your head.

[223] It's not physical.

[224] Oh my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[225] Is this the largest mass hysteria?

[226] since the Witches of Salem?

[227] Or is it something else entirely?

[228] Something's wrong here.

[229] Something's not right.

[230] Leroy was the new date line and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

[231] A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

[232] Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[233] You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad -free right now by joining Wondry Plus.

[234] Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught.

[235] I'm Sachi Cole.

[236] And I'm Sarah Haggy.

[237] And we're the host of scam influencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once the facade falls away.

[238] We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit followed by Larry King, and no real product to push.

[239] He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

[240] To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Judice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame.

[241] Follow Scamfluencers on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[242] You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad -free right now on Wondry Plus.

[243] The shop environment, I was watching it being put together.

[244] And honestly, it was a beautiful shop.

[245] I mean, I don't think anyone can argue with that.

[246] The interior design was immaculate.

[247] It was very swanky, pretty inviting environment, in my opinion.

[248] Lots of natural lighting.

[249] This was a combination of our ideas.

[250] Even before the shop opened, he had mentioned that he wanted to have some kind of shop pet, something that's not going to smell, though.

[251] And I was like, oh, I have experience with lots of reptiles.

[252] A frog is going to be a great idea.

[253] You want something that's pretty low maintenance and doesn't smell.

[254] White's tree frog.

[255] They're non -aquatic, arboreal species.

[256] It's going to be probably your best bed.

[257] I ended up buying this huge setup for these frogs and everyone loved the frogs.

[258] Environment -wise, no complaints on that.

[259] In hindsight, once everything started to come out, I did talk to some people, especially clients that had been tattooed by me at Lion's Paw versus Blood Orange.

[260] I did have a lot of people say that they absolutely prefer Lion's Paw to Blood Orange.

[261] They feel much more comfortable at Lion's Paw.

[262] Blood Orange could feel like a little sterile, a little stiff.

[263] At worst, there were some people that straight up were like, I did not trust that guy, he creeped me out, I did not feel comfortable there.

[264] But at the time, most people had pretty good reviews of the place.

[265] When I moved in to Blood Orange, right off the bat, I started to notice there were some things that were a little strange.

[266] I've been doing a lot of research into tattoo artist's red flags.

[267] Like, if your artist is hitting on you, it's probably a pretty big red flag.

[268] If they're charging you thousands of dollars up front or if they're sending you nudes, obviously those are huge red flags.

[269] But there are some that it's hard to say.

[270] Blood Orange, the shop claimed to be a safe space, an LGBTQ friendly place, which is one of the reasons why I was attracted to it.

[271] Now, in hindsight, I had a strong gut feeling about this.

[272] But at the time, you know, I couldn't articulate it.

[273] And I was questioning if I was overthinking things comparing Blood Orange to Lion's Pod.

[274] I had such an amazing time at lion's paw.

[275] Maybe I have unrealistic expectations of what a tattoo shop should be.

[276] In the beginning, I couldn't tell you completely why.

[277] I just never fully let my guard down.

[278] I felt like I could never fully connect with Archie.

[279] I really try with everyone to be friendly with them, but it was just really hard.

[280] I felt like we didn't really have as much in common as I thought.

[281] Based on the things that he would post about, I assume, our values aligned, but I can tell you as soon as I started, he almost immediately switched.

[282] And it would depend on the conversation.

[283] Sometimes he would argue for the sake of arguing.

[284] So even if he had just posted something about women's bodily autonomy or something, we would be talking about it.

[285] And I'd be like, I really agree with that.

[286] And then he'd be like, well, actually.

[287] And then he kind of switched it up.

[288] And I'm like, what?

[289] I could never tell where exactly he was at.

[290] None of it was really consistent.

[291] I'm like, well, that's half the reason I work here is I thought that you were an agreeance with these things.

[292] I kind of started to feel like he had baited me. There was other weird things.

[293] Like a lot of his views on women and sex.

[294] I mean, on paper, the values themselves, they might seem like they're progressive ideas, but then when you really dig into it, it's actually kind of exploitive, depending on the context.

[295] It was just us that worked at the shop, and we had different days.

[296] So there was only two or three days out of the week where we worked together.

[297] A big chunk of the time, I was just with my clients alone in this private studio, which had doors that locked automatically.

[298] I told him I had very valid concerns.

[299] I'm in this locked private studio with like an 18 -year -old girl.

[300] she could be incredibly uncomfortable for all I know and too scared to say anything.

[301] So it would be really nice if we had more people working here.

[302] I also was thinking, I don't think I'm going to be here long term.

[303] I'm going to try and make it a year.

[304] I don't want to seem like an artist who just hops from shop to shop.

[305] So I tried to give it as much time as I could.

[306] If I leave, I don't want to totally screw him over.

[307] So I was like, hey, you need to start hiring people.

[308] I told them it gets lonely here and I have concerns that if someone's uncomfortable, they wouldn't even feel comfortable telling me that and I don't want to give someone a bad experience.

[309] He was like, yeah, okay, and you know, he made a post about it.

[310] Nothing seemed to come of it.

[311] A few weeks later, I was like, so what's the update?

[312] And he's like, well, I got a lot of people that message me, but I'm going to be honest, a lot of the people that messaged me were non -binary.

[313] And I just don't know if I really want a bunch of non -binary people working here.

[314] And I can't make this up.

[315] He literally was like, I don't want them posting all their go -funds to pay for their rent and stuff.

[316] If he meant it as a joke, that's a joke that he cannot make.

[317] He's basically insinuating that non -binary people have a victim mentality and they just need to pick themselves up by their bootstraps.

[318] It's a niche stereotype against non -binary people in the queer community, but it is a very harmful stereotype.

[319] He was clearly serious because he didn't hire anyone.

[320] And there were amazing artists who were very talented.

[321] And so I'm like, you're literally discriminating against non -binary people.

[322] He would, though, have them as guest artists, which I thought was interesting.

[323] But in hindsight, some of it might have been more of him using it as like a dating pool, but not truly wanting to give them a job opportunity.

[324] targeting sex workers is a strategy for a lot of serial predators a lot of the times the law itself really doesn't even bother with sex workers coming to them saying that they've been assaulted it's a lot easier for predators to get away with assaulting people when they do target sex workers and it's really heartbreaking and before I knew the extent of everything back when it was just me having weird feelings about it I had noticed that so many of his clients were some type of sex worker.

[325] There's nothing inherently wrong with that.

[326] I noticed that it was weird because me and him have the exact same booking process.

[327] He is the one that taught me how to do the booking the way I do it.

[328] He literally was like, we're going to leave our books open for the exact same amount of time.

[329] We're going to schedule people on the same days.

[330] He orchestrated all of that, even sending it to the same email service.

[331] So we're going through our books together scheduling people.

[332] I know that we are hand selecting the clients that we want.

[333] I'm picking them based on the projects themselves.

[334] I'm sure he was doing that too, but what are the odds that like 70 % of his clients seem to be some type of sex worker, whether that's an only fan's model or a bikini barista or a stripper or an escort?

[335] What are the odds?

[336] You know, in my whole career, which at the time was about eight years or so of tattooing, I've tattooed less than 10 sex workers, at least that I know of.

[337] So I thought that was a bit alarming, honestly.

[338] I feel like he's handpicking these people and he's trying to form a certain kind of clientele, and it could be for a multitude of different factors.

[339] Some artists are guilty of doing this where they try and sell the client on their portfolio more so than the tattoo itself.

[340] If you've ever seen a tattooer who most of their pictures on their portfolio or some tattoo that they did on a girl's butt or on their breasts, when you start seeing that, they're selling a woman's body, not so much the artwork itself.

[341] So, I mean, there could have been that, but it also could be he wants to be in close proximity to women that he's attracted to.

[342] That shouldn't even be a factor.

[343] My clients are so diverse.

[344] And I will give a little bit of credit.

[345] I think most tattooers do have more female clientele as opposed to male clients because women do typically get tattooed more.

[346] It's not uncommon to have more female clients, but to have a certain type of woman every time, I think I only saw him tattoo someone over 40 twice in the whole year that I was there.

[347] If you're like an only fan's model, boom.

[348] you got an appointment.

[349] The side note, too, is that he has admitted to me that he subscribes to a lot of these.

[350] I've talked to different people, and some people think that that's actually a good thing, that at least he's supporting them, but I see that as a little bit more devious.

[351] I personally, as an artist, would never subscribe to a client's only fans.

[352] I think that's wildly inappropriate.

[353] I think if your doctor subscribed to your only fans, that's wildly inappropriate.

[354] If your therapist did that, wildly inappropriate.

[355] But for some reason, tattooing, I'm not trying to advocate that this industry should be super, corporate, but we should have some stronger boundaries.

[356] This whole industry is supposed to be built on trust.

[357] So when people break that trust, the client is in such a vulnerable position.

[358] They're not only trusting you with a permanent body modification that they're going to wear in theory for the rest of their life.

[359] This is a right of passage through some really important period of their life.

[360] Even if you're a client who's getting a tattoo willy -nilly and you're just doing it because it's fun.

[361] It's still a part of your journey.

[362] It's still supposed to be a fun, memorable experience, you shouldn't be creeped out quite.

[363] And it's really sad when there's people that take advantage of that, one of which being he was Polly, which no shade to anyone who's Polly.

[364] I know that it can be a wonderful thing for certain people.

[365] He made lots of weird comments to me about how me and my partner should try being Polly.

[366] I was like, we're monogamous, we're happy with our monogamous relationship.

[367] And he would bring that up constant, pressuring us.

[368] There were even times where it started to get offensive because there was a time where I I was confiding that me and my partner's sex life was not really in the best place because we were going through a lot.

[369] There's a lot of stress.

[370] He's like, well, maybe you should open your relationship up.

[371] I was like, if she's having libido issues, why would fucking someone else fix our problems?

[372] That's essentially saying that I'm the problem.

[373] His weird comments about we should be Polly as if I'm not enough for her personally offended me in regards to being trans because that's already an insecurity I have.

[374] I don't think he meant it that way, but for me, I went to that place.

[375] My girlfriend, Danielle, already told me that she's got a weird feeling about him.

[376] She's like, I feel like he's hitting on me. When the shop was opening, he started like sending pictures of the shop.

[377] She's like, oh, that's exciting.

[378] And then, you know, he's sent a meme, and then she sent to meme back.

[379] And then at any shop parties we'd have, he would go out of his way to go hug her and touch her and stuff.

[380] Really intimate hugs, squeezing her, physically turning her around from what she's doing to, like, give him a hug.

[381] long -ass hugs.

[382] Archie had invited us to the bar.

[383] There was a guest artist.

[384] They weren't a tattooer, but they did paintings when they were from Portland, so they were in from out of town.

[385] I don't drink, but I'm okay with going to bars.

[386] It's not really a trigger for me. Me and my girlfriend went to the bar.

[387] Danielle drinks.

[388] She got one drink, finished it, and then was like, I'm going to go get another one, so she starts walking over to the bar.

[389] From where we were sitting to the line to the bar was a somewhat narrow passage, but it wasn't super crowded.

[390] There was plenty of room.

[391] So Archie gets up and he's like, oh, I'm going to get one too.

[392] So I let him out, wasn't thinking anything of it at the time.

[393] I was unaware of this until we got back in the car.

[394] But apparently when he was up there, he scooched by her, went out of his way to rub up against her so closely that he rubbed his dick on her butt and she could feel it.

[395] Once dinner's over and we get in the car, Danielle tells me about it.

[396] And then she's also telling me about all the stuff leading up.

[397] that she feels like it's more than a coincidence.

[398] And I was like, that's definitely weird.

[399] We've been together for like nine years now, and she's never had an encounter like that.

[400] She was super excited to have me work at the shop where I could grow my career.

[401] It would make no sense for her to just make that shit up.

[402] I had asked her, I was like, do you want me to say something?

[403] I'll fucking call him out.

[404] She's like, no, there's the whole plausible deniability thing.

[405] He could just be like, I did not do that.

[406] It's my word against his.

[407] She was worried she was going to get painted as lying.

[408] She's like, it's just weird.

[409] And of course, I was mad about it.

[410] It's like, dude, making my girlfriend uncomfortable.

[411] Of course I wanted to say something.

[412] But she doesn't want me to say anything.

[413] The whole drive home, which was like 45 minutes, we're just kind of weighing it.

[414] He's got such a huge platform, and he's a much more well -known artist.

[415] There's this power dynamic where, even if I did call him out, he could single -handedly destroy my career.

[416] Unfortunately, we just didn't really have enough to, like, incriminate him or anything.

[417] There's even parts of you that downplays it yourself when you go through something like that.

[418] Okay, like maybe we're just overreacting.

[419] Definitely seems weird.

[420] He shouldn't have done that.

[421] You second -guess yourself.

[422] So we're like, whatever.

[423] We'll just let it go.

[424] Another time, there was a dinner that we went to a couple months later, and it was kind of similar situation.

[425] We were invited to hang out with a couple of guest artists.

[426] Danielle came along.

[427] She was sitting next to him.

[428] I was on Daniel's other side.

[429] We didn't think about it.

[430] I don't know.

[431] Yeah, we were creeped out by him, but when you're in this big group setting in a public area, sometimes you're just not thinking this guy's going to creep on me right now.

[432] She's sitting next to him, and apparently under the table started with footsie.

[433] She was moving away because she's like, maybe it's an accident with her body language just moves away.

[434] And then he keeps moving it back and then he grabbed her thigh under the table.

[435] She like swatted him away.

[436] I'm unaware of all of this.

[437] We leave the restaurant and she tells me that in the car and I'm like, what the fuck?

[438] I kind of want to call this guy out.

[439] She's like, no. It's just going to escalate and I either get into an altercation with him or I quit or get fired and then maybe get painted as an estranged, jealous co -worker, because he's done that to people before.

[440] Everyone that he's worked with, he's got some issue with, and, oh, they're just crazy, and they hate me. When I was younger, I lived in Washington.

[441] Me and Nathan are riding the bus home one day, Nathan being my brother.

[442] We're the last kids on the bus, and there was a bus driver assistant and the bus driver.

[443] The bus driver was apparently drinking and driving, and obviously we didn't know.

[444] She drove off the cliff.

[445] I cannot make that up.

[446] We just drove off the mountain cliff, completely were airborne, and full.

[447] fell on the next set of road.

[448] Ever since then, I am terrified of long drives.

[449] Which is kind of funny because it wasn't really a long drive, but the longer I drive, the more the anxiety kicks in and I'm scared of crashing.

[450] So the convention from hell, there's so many things that happened during that trip.

[451] The big part was from where I was at in Seattle all the way to Portland for the convention, I was petrified.

[452] Even though it's a really safe drive, I hate doing the drives.

[453] I literally have to like peel my hands off the steering wheel because I'm ripping it so hard.

[454] So I was like, maybe I can hit your ride with Archie.

[455] Archie was driving another artist who flew in, who was a guest artist.

[456] So he's like, I don't got room on my car, sorry.

[457] And I was like, all right, that's fine.

[458] I found another artist from another shop who was very nice.

[459] He's like, I'm going to get a rental car.

[460] I'm a very safe driver.

[461] If you want to just drive with me, I can take your stuff.

[462] And I was like, oh, my gosh, yes, thank you.

[463] I rode with him.

[464] He was very sweet, got me there safely.

[465] He was not lying.

[466] He's a very safe driver.

[467] That was the best driving experience I've ever had.

[468] It was wonderful.

[469] So I get to the convention.

[470] I wanted to leave Sunday night and everyone else was going to stay until Monday night including Archie.

[471] I was like, the guy who drove me here, he also wants to stay until Monday night.

[472] I think I'm just going to take the bus back.

[473] There was a whole thing at the hotel.

[474] I went to the hotel and they're like, we don't have anything under Archie Bronson.

[475] I was like, what are you talking about?

[476] This has to be it.

[477] He's not answering his phone.

[478] I'm running through what I think his legal name is and eventually we got it and I was able to get the hotel room.

[479] Archie had brought his own massage table and for some reason decided to take mine.

[480] So he hogged my massage table all three days, would not let me use his, didn't even offer.

[481] I didn't say anything about it at the time.

[482] We're in the middle of a convention with all these other artists.

[483] I'm really not trying to look crazy in front of these people by being like, why are you taking my massage table?

[484] Since all this stuff has happened, I'm not as tolerant.

[485] When I see behavior like that, I'm just calling it out.

[486] And then he also pressured me to go to a strip club, which personal beliefs, I do not like.

[487] Like going to strip clubs, I think they're very exploitive.

[488] I know that some people maybe have good experiences, but I know people who don't have good experiences with working there.

[489] I think at the end of the day, it's a place where you are inherently commodifying women's bodies and you're objectifying them.

[490] I have always, from the get -go, made it very clear I'm not okay with those places.

[491] I've told him that before.

[492] And he's like, come on, you should just go because a bunch of other artists are going.

[493] And I was like, I guess I'll go, but no lap dances.

[494] And he's like, yeah, yeah, no, that's fine.

[495] It's fine.

[496] I go.

[497] I was in there for like 15 minutes.

[498] As soon as I walked in the door, there's a stripper crying.

[499] The door person's freaking out.

[500] And there's like a fight that broke out.

[501] I get in there and I get in here.

[502] The vibes are off.

[503] So I go out in the smoking section and I'm just vaping, trying to get away from all the commotion.

[504] Archie comes out, already pissed drunk.

[505] And he's like, I'm going to get you a lap dance.

[506] And I was like, no, I told you I don't want to be here.

[507] Pretty shortly after that, I mean, again, I was only there for like 15 minutes.

[508] And I got an Uber and went back to my hotel room without saying, anything to anyone I just left.

[509] And then I get a text from Archie, and he's like, why'd you leave?

[510] And I was like, I told you, I don't like those places.

[511] I really didn't want to go.

[512] He told me it was going to be a nice place.

[513] I'm seeing these poor women just crying because they've been assaulted.

[514] And I especially told you, I didn't want to lap dance.

[515] He has the audacity to send me this thing back.

[516] And I think it's just because it was in writing.

[517] I think if I had told him that in person, his response would have been different.

[518] He would have been more defensive.

[519] But through text, since it was in writing, he's like, oh, I totally understand.

[520] I hate these places, too.

[521] I only went because everyone else was going.

[522] And I was like, What?

[523] You're the one that pressured me to go.

[524] I was already pissed about that.

[525] She struck him with her motor vehicle.

[526] She had been under the influence and she left him there.

[527] In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O 'Keefe.

[528] It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location.

[529] What happens next?

[530] Depends on who you ask.

[531] Was it a crime of passion?

[532] If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

[533] This was clearly an intentional act.

[534] And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia.

[535] Or a corrupt police cover -up.

[536] If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover -up to prevent one of their own from going down.

[537] Everyone had an opinion.

[538] And after the 10 -week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

[539] To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is.

[540] Law and crime presents the most in -depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

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[543] I go and talk to Archie, and Archie's like, so what's the plan?

[544] I was like, well, I'm going to be leaving Sunday night.

[545] I'm just going to have my stuff go back with the guy who drove me. And he was like, I can take your stuff.

[546] And I was like, he's already got it.

[547] I thought you were already driving the other guy.

[548] I thought you didn't have any room in your car.

[549] He's like, I'm going to be taking him to the airport.

[550] So I'll have room.

[551] And I was like, are you sure?

[552] I already got a ride.

[553] And he's like, no, no, no, let me take care of it.

[554] It makes way more sense.

[555] We work at the same shop.

[556] I'll just take it right to the shop.

[557] So I went to talk to the other guy and was like, all right, Archie wants to do it.

[558] He's like, okay, that's fine.

[559] The convention happens.

[560] I had only brought three things.

[561] It was my tattooing stool, my toolbox that had all of my equipment in it, which mine used thousands of dollars worth of equipment.

[562] that is my whole career in a box and my massage tables.

[563] So it was just those three things.

[564] And then on the last day when I was finally ready to leave, I finished tattooing and I put all my stuff in one spot.

[565] I'm like, do you want me to just load your car up right now?

[566] And he's like, no, no, no, I got it.

[567] I was like, are you sure?

[568] Because I can load it up right now.

[569] I'm not tattooing.

[570] I have time before my bus leaves.

[571] And he's like, no, no, no, don't worry.

[572] I have you.

[573] I was like, all right.

[574] Well, it's just my three things in the corner there.

[575] I cannot explain to you like how abundantly clear I was.

[576] It's these things.

[577] And then I start walking to the bus, and I text him.

[578] And I was like, don't forget my stuff.

[579] It's just three things.

[580] And he's like, yep, got it.

[581] I get my bus ride home, go to bed, wake up in the morning.

[582] And I get a text from the shop that was in the booth next to us.

[583] And they're like, it appears Archie forgot your stuff.

[584] So we went ahead and grabbed it so that it wouldn't get left behind.

[585] You can come pick it up today.

[586] Just to check my own bias, I was like, are you sure he forgot him?

[587] He didn't like have it set up to go with anyone else, nothing like that.

[588] And they were like, no, it was just sitting here.

[589] He was already gone.

[590] And your stuff was in the booth alone.

[591] They were closing the whole building down.

[592] All right, that's all I need to know, thanks.

[593] Picked up my stuff from them.

[594] I kind of trauma dumped on them about the whole experience with working with Archie, and they knew him.

[595] After all this stuff has happened, they're like, I remember that day you told us all that stuff, and they're like, it definitely really made us question who this guy was.

[596] Then the next day, I was going to go confront Archie.

[597] I know a lot of people are like, you confronted him on your toolbox, but not him groping your girlfriend.

[598] I'm like, well, one, my girlfriend did not want me to say anything.

[599] And two, unfortunately, no one questions whether he fucking.

[600] me over with the toolbox or not.

[601] No one is questioning whether he disrespected my property, but unfortunately people will question if he assaulted my girlfriend or if he disrespected her body, which really just kind of highlights how little we view women, I guess, which is really sad.

[602] One of the only ways that I was able to get my frustration out on him was to call him the fuck out on my equipment.

[603] I had all this pent up anger.

[604] I go into the shop and I'm ready to confront him.

[605] He's sitting in the shop alone.

[606] I open the door and I was like, do you have a client here?

[607] he was like, no. And I was like, cool, because we need to freaking talk about some shit.

[608] I went off on him.

[609] I was like, what the fuck?

[610] Between like the pressure me to go to the strip club and leaving all my shit at the convention, taking my massage table when you already had one, I had the tattoo in the most awkward positions.

[611] Why do you feel so entitled to my shit?

[612] And anytime you have a guest artist here, you let them use my shit without asking.

[613] So there's been times where I just didn't have a power supply when I was about to tattoo for my appointment, because he just let people use my shit.

[614] Or he moved it.

[615] So I'm bringing all this up to him and he's like whoa it's not really like that man i had actually asked her if she would take it back because i realized i didn't have any room in my car and i was like that's funny because i already asked her if he had arranged for it to go back with you and they said no you didn't say shit i don't know why they would lie about that but i'm like even if you did set it up to go with someone else why didn't you tell me why did you not communicate with me plan to change this is my whole career you should be communicating with me i would never do that to you you are an artist you should know damn well how important this shit is.

[616] I was just going off.

[617] He was still trying to flip it on her.

[618] He never fully admitted to him.

[619] Even though I caught him red -handed and then caught him lying about it, he still insists.

[620] After that interaction, it was definitely validated for me. This is not the kind of person that I can call out on anything.

[621] He tried to seem like, yeah, I guess I should have communicated a little better, sorry.

[622] Maybe what we can do now is have monthly meetings where we discuss things.

[623] I was like, yeah, sure.

[624] And then it just turned into him nitpicking everything I did.

[625] This really just feels more like a way for him to be like, you're not so great either.

[626] Clearly, he's a liar.

[627] He will throw other people under the bus to save himself.

[628] Never fully takes accountability.

[629] But we'll try and make it seem like he's doing that so that people will think, you're being too harsh.

[630] Maybe you should just work with him on it.

[631] He's trying.

[632] He knows better.

[633] What blows me away about all this is people who are like, he's foreign.

[634] Cultures are different.

[635] I can understand there are cultural.

[636] differences.

[637] And if you are neurodivergent, maybe you do have a hard time with social cues.

[638] He's admitted in private that he's not autistic.

[639] He literally has admitted that he tells people that so that he doesn't have to explain his behavior to people.

[640] He's been here for 14 years, at least, as of right now.

[641] He posts all this stuff virtue signaling about respecting people's boundaries and how to take accountability for when you're getting called out.

[642] It's just odd that he's pretending to not understand these things.

[643] You're the one who post about this stuff all the time.

[644] At that point, I was like, I have to quit.

[645] I have to find another way out.

[646] The next thing that happened, I think it was a month later, there was a tax issue.

[647] He had promised me when we started working there, and this is how every other shop I've ever worked at operates, and this is how our CPAs and our bookkeepers tell us to do it.

[648] The Department of Revenue told us to do it.

[649] The artist collects the sales tax from the client, gives that to the shop, and the shop can pay it.

[650] So all the sales tax gets to the Department of Revenue.

[651] I had asked him before working there, is that how it's going to be?

[652] And he was like, yes, the whole year I'm giving him all the sales tax that I've collected from the customers.

[653] All of a sudden, he was like, I talked to my CPA and they said, that's not how we do it.

[654] I have the money.

[655] I can just give it back to you.

[656] And then you can pay it.

[657] And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, well, wait.

[658] You're supposed to pay those things monthly, though.

[659] And it's been almost a year.

[660] This could be accruing late fees.

[661] You clearly haven't checked in.

[662] He's like, well, I don't know.

[663] That's what they're telling me. So I was like, this is going to be my way out.

[664] I don't want to just up and quit randomly.

[665] I feel like I need to have the concrete reason.

[666] I wanted to catch him doing something.

[667] I could have some kind of actual proof over the tax thing.

[668] I'm like, that was a really easy one.

[669] That had to be my way out.

[670] I'd been telling my old co -workers about all this throughout working there, but especially around that time.

[671] This is creepy.

[672] There's so many red flags.

[673] I need to get out.

[674] He's going to like hit on the wrong person or something and get canceled, and I definitely don't want to be there for that, which in hindsight sounds really bad.

[675] I'm going to take ownership of that.

[676] It sounds like I didn't care and I only put myself first.

[677] I didn't have enough evidence at the time to fully be like, this guy is a predator.

[678] I only had enough to just be like, yeah, he's fucking creepy and weird and I don't like it and I need to get out.

[679] I'm still one person.

[680] I can't defeat misogyny myself.

[681] I still unfortunately have to navigate my way through it.

[682] The alternative could have absolutely been me having my career destroyed for me to go out before I knew that there were others.

[683] I also didn't know the extent of it.

[684] I came in and I was like, I'm sorry, between this and some other shit, I'm just over it.

[685] And he's like, what other stuff?

[686] I had thrown in him not respecting my boundaries in multiple different ways.

[687] Anytime I would try and communicate with him, he would put up a fight.

[688] I'm really getting tired of being accused of being aggressive.

[689] The tax issue was the nail in the coffin and all that other stuff led up to it.

[690] That's how I ended up leaving.

[691] I remember when I quit, I gave him a 30 -day notice and said, this is going to be my last day.

[692] I'm done.

[693] He tried to say, I think you owe me staying until I hire someone else.

[694] To which I was like, no, I've been telling you for months that you need to hire someone, and you point blank told me that you didn't like any of the options, even though you apparently had this plethora of artists, some of which I've even seen that were incredibly talented artists, and you just decided you didn't like them.

[695] That's not my problem.

[696] My last day is on the 30th, I'm leaving.

[697] Right after I quit, he made some comment within the same conversation.

[698] He's like, if I can't even manage to keep you here being as tolerant as you are, how am I going to get anyone else to work with me?

[699] It's funny at the time I almost kind of took as a compliment.

[700] I thought about it even in that moment.

[701] Well, that's kind of backhanded.

[702] This is just obviously thinking he'd walk all over me. Did you handpick me because you thought that I would tolerate more, which unfortunately I did?

[703] That's awful.

[704] That itself to me seemed weird that he would say that.

[705] During that month, he would like make comments how it's going to be running the place by himself.

[706] Then he would also do weird bragging things where I'd be like, guess you just got sponsored by tattoo equipment.

[707] A lot of people have tried to discredit me and accuse me lying about this stuff because they're like, went to a convention with him after you quit, so it must not have been nap at.

[708] For one, the convention was already booked prior to me quitting, and it was in a group of multiple other artists.

[709] Artie just happened to be there.

[710] I did not know what the sleeping arrangements were going to be.

[711] We all were going to get an Airbnb together.

[712] And when I got to the Airbnb, I was trying to sleep out on the couch because no one else was there at the time.

[713] They were all out partying and I'm sober, so I was chilling at the house, already about to sleep on the couch.

[714] They're like, you don't have to sleep out here.

[715] No, like you're going to sleep up with Archie or whatever.

[716] and I was like, fuck, I got stuck in a room with him.

[717] He had pressured the fuck out of me the whole time, like for months, months and months.

[718] Let me tattoo you.

[719] Why won't let me tattoo you?

[720] Are you mad at me?

[721] I was trying to push it off.

[722] I just don't know what I want, you know?

[723] He tattooed me on that trip.

[724] I think since I wasn't working with him at the time, it honestly wasn't that bad.

[725] I drove down there myself this time.

[726] I had all my stuff in order, and I definitely made sure to, like, keep track of all my belongs, not trust him with anything.

[727] It was a much better experience, but still not particularly fun, having to ruin.

[728] with him.

[729] He did have me lie.

[730] I almost didn't really mind because at that point I just wanted out.

[731] I wanted to leave at least somewhat peacefully.

[732] He did make me lie and be like, well, just tell people that you're leaving because of commute, which is kind of true.

[733] It was a really long commute for me, but also I was carpooling with my girlfriend, so it was fine either way.

[734] But I was like, yeah, yeah, that's what I'll tell people.

[735] In my post, when I was like, I'm leaving here, guys, commute was a little crazy, huh?

[736] You know, that was him being like, don't tell anyone about convention, don't tell anyone about.

[737] He definitely wanted me to keep it really hush, hush on his behalf.

[738] So that was kind of silly.

[739] He's also expecting loyalty of you, but never gives you that in return.

[740] Yeah, well, and I think the whole thing was his public image.

[741] And that's what I think is so ironic.

[742] Me, unfortunately, being the face of this whole thing, which I want to say, it wasn't just me who came out about this.

[743] There was actually a lot of other artists that we collectively decided we needed to do this.

[744] Next time, on something was wrong.

[745] I got a text from Shane, like, hey, can you talk real quick?

[746] And he confided in me. I said Archie assaulted me, and he was like, I knew it.

[747] I knew that he was this type of person.

[748] They had their own evidence against him.

[749] They were like, we saw graffiti on a wall that said Archie Bronson sexually assaults people, and we had confronted him about it, and he was like, oh, it's just my crazy ex.

[750] I ended up deciding to make a police report.

[751] You were like, wow, this is obviously really messed up.

[752] What are we going to do about this?

[753] I had quite a lot of people coming forward telling me their experiences.

[754] People in the tattoo community and in the sex work community in Seattle.

[755] You are this wholier than thou person, and yet you're doing all this terrible stuff behind the scenes.

[756] Like, fuck you.

[757] Fuck this thing that you did to this person.

[758] and fuck you for also doing this again in our industry when this is a prevalent problem.

[759] Thank you so much for listening.

[760] Until next time, stay safe, friends.

[761] Something Was Wrong is a broken cycle media production.

[762] Created and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese.

[763] If you'd like to support the show further, you can share episodes with your loved ones, leave a positive review, or follow Something Was Wrong on Instagram, at Something Was Wrong podcast.

[764] Our theme song was composed by Gladrags.

[765] Check out their album, Wonder Under.

[766] Thank you so much.

[767] If you like something was wrong, you can listen early and ad -free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[768] Prime members can listen ad -free on Amazon music.

[769] Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery .com slash survey.