Davina McCall: “I was doing cocaine with my mum at 15!”

[0] I think out of everything.

[1] She was worried about me. Do you know what I mean?

[2] Like, that was her last thought.

[3] DeVina McColl!

[4] She's a TV presenter, a fitness fanatic.

[5] Multiple time, best -selling author.

[6] Rarely off our televisions, and what you see is what you get.

[7] It's good to be bad.

[8] After Big Brother, I thought, what else can I do to get famous?

[9] So I was always a bit of a show off.

[10] Mum, you made a mistake.

[11] Look, how great I am.

[12] That's at the back of everything.

[13] Why?

[14] I did cope with my mum at 15.

[15] I did it with my sister at 14.

[16] You were doing drugs?

[17] Yeah, like all drugs, all my problems.

[18] I left my job, no money.

[19] I had nothing.

[20] I will literally do anything to stop feeling like this.

[21] I'm going to phone someone for help.

[22] I'm fucked.

[23] Ten years ago, you lost Caroline, your half -sister.

[24] It was definitely the worst thing that ever happened to me. I was just trying to be really strong for her.

[25] And I kept saying to her, I'm going to be fine.

[26] She put a fence around her and I thought I'm fucking climbing over the fence and I'm going to get in.

[27] Don't wait for somebody to say that you've got six weeks to live because the best seven weeks of my life with my sister were those last seven weeks of hers.

[28] What was your first defining moment?

[29] Oh, definitely realising, the moment I realized.

[30] my mum wasn't coming back to pick me up.

[31] So I got taken to my grannies, my paternal grandmother, most amazing woman called Pippi, got taken to her house in the country, which I knew really well.

[32] I used to spend quite a lot of time down there with her.

[33] And my mum wasn't with my dad.

[34] She was with another man, but I didn't kind of question that.

[35] They'd spit up, but I didn't know that or kind of understand.

[36] I don't think in my head I realized what was going on.

[37] And she said, I'm going on holiday and, you know, I'll be back.

[38] And I was like, okay, great.

[39] And I stayed with my granny.

[40] And then after a couple of months, I thought, she coming back.

[41] But then I thought, I didn't want to, this was such a different time.

[42] You know, I'm 55, so this would have been over 50 years ago.

[43] It was such a different time that you didn't ask people, children didn't go, where's mummy gone, or when's mommy coming back?

[44] I knew that I was a guest at my granny's house, but I wasn't.

[45] It had all been planned.

[46] My granny had been given my custody.

[47] My dad was coming down every weekend to be with me. They were sort of sharing custody, but my dad was trying to make money in London, and my granny was taking care of me day to day.

[48] And it had all been sorted.

[49] But I didn't know that because they just thought, well, she's young.

[50] she won't really remember or realize let's all just brush it under the carpet and it's so interesting because nowadays with my children everything that happens we're like, how do you feel about that?

[51] Are you okay?

[52] Let's talk it through.

[53] It just didn't happen back in those days.

[54] So I grew up thinking that my mum had left me and had never come back.

[55] So at about probably four, maybe six months after she'd gone, I realized that I wasn't going to live with her again, but I was left feeling guilty because I felt like my granny was looking after me. And she didn't want me in some way.

[56] Not that she was so loving to me, but somehow I was overstaying my welcome.

[57] So I think that was a defining moment because it set up a chain of events, a fear of abandonment that kind of made me make some really stupid decisions all through my teenage years, into my 20s and something that I've worked diligently on since my early 20s to let go of.

[58] Why did your mother do that?

[59] Well, my mum grew up in France with two parents who were very loving but didn't know how to give her their time.

[60] So I think my mum needed time and contact, but they just gave her.

[61] a lot of money.

[62] They were quite wealthy and they just, you know, at 18 they gave her a lump sum of money.

[63] She went spent the whole lot on clothes and the East San Loran.

[64] She got a food disorder.

[65] She was very thin.

[66] It was the 60s.

[67] She was like a model.

[68] She had a Fay done away nose job.

[69] She was incredible looking, lots of drugs, quite a lot of drink.

[70] Like crazy, fun lady.

[71] Met my dad.

[72] My dad was super hot.

[73] Like young guy.

[74] They were an it couple.

[75] He was so in love with her.

[76] She was completely out of, probably a sex addict when I look back at her life.

[77] And unashamedly so.

[78] The French are very, she's French.

[79] French are very different about sex.

[80] She was kind of, you know, she was, it's only bodies.

[81] That was her catchphrase.

[82] Like, you know, oh, it's only bodies.

[83] And you'd think, no, that's someone's husband.

[84] Like, that is, you know what I mean?

[85] So looking back, she wasn't well.

[86] herself but she was so young like this was we're talking 22 23 when she met my dad she'd already had a child at 16 been forced to marry the father of that child they'd got divorced then she met my dad so she was troubled herself right and my dad tried to help fix her but it just wasn't going to work and she ran off with someone else having had several affairs and everything and my dad was brokenhearted absolutely brokenhearted and the courts in the UK because I was born in the UK and had been brought up here gave my granny and my dad custody which was so rare so I'm not sure how hard she fought I'm not sure that she did but that was what happened but I did go and see her in the holidays but that was what did you mean?

[87] Well quite crazy like what did you see?

[88] Oh my God like what didn't I see I mean my mum would she would wear this was quite a funny story I mean in some of it makes me laugh now but she'd go out with me like in a floor length electric blue coat and we'd get out and then she'd go like that to someone and I'd think she'd flash her.

[89] My God she's naked, yes like she'd be naked underneath her coat and she'd flash someone she'd think it was hilarious and I'd just be like oh god somebody please might make the world disappear but at times it's really hard to explain but I loved my mother like I really wanted her to pull some mummy business out the bag like I was like come on you couldn't do this and sometimes she'd give me a hug and I'd think oh my god this is it like this is what it feels like to be hugged by mother but then other times you'd be reading her right it'd be like well I've got to be I've got to be sweet little girl oh no I'm going to have to take care of you or like now I have to be really good fun I need to entertain you it was always wearing a thousand different hats to see how she was going and my granny used to say to me when we did start talking about it when I was older she said we'd have to like kind of it would be funny for a month when you came back from France you'd be a little bit on edge and we'd have to just really get you back into your favorite foods a routine at bedtime safety reground me So when I say I'm half nun, half wild child, it's because of that life that I've had, like, drugs at 12, with my mum.

[90] You were doing drugs?

[91] Yeah, like smoking weed at 12, Coke at 15, 14, even.

[92] I did cope with my mum at 15.

[93] I did it with my sister at 14, you know.

[94] It was like there was no, and then I'd get back to the UK and it would be back into your secondhand clothes and sort of safe small.

[95] life, like simple.

[96] My life was very simple.

[97] I mean, I say secondhand clothes just to give you an idea.

[98] I was in my granddad's jumper and an old pair of jeans and I get to Paris and they go, what are you wearing?

[99] Here's loads of money.

[100] Go and buy some posh loafers and get your hair done.

[101] And I'm 12.

[102] Like I look like a proper Lolita.

[103] And I'd quickly realize that my life in Paris and my life in the UK, they must never know about each other, because if they knew in the UK about my life in Paris, they wouldn't let me see my mum.

[104] And I didn't care how mad she was.

[105] I still wanted to see her.

[106] Does that make sense?

[107] Yeah.

[108] So my sister also was my lifeline in Paris.

[109] So my sister who was six years older than me, even though we did do drugs together, and I know that sounds bad, but she was my rock.

[110] Like she was my, she grounded me when I was in Paris.

[111] So we stuck together.

[112] We understood what mom was like we worked her together caroline yeah caroline yeah and then my mom you know but i i did like going to paris and also because i was young and they didn't stop me from doing anything it was crazy having sat here with um stand -up comedians i remember jimmy car said to me he said often it's assumed that comedians themselves are depressed and that they're cracking jokes to kind of cheer other people up in an attempt to cheer themselves up but he said to me you should actually ask them which one of their parents is depressed?

[113] Which one of their parents were they trying to please and entertain?

[114] You said earlier, you know, did I have to be this one day?

[115] Did I have to be a joker?

[116] Did I have to take care of her?

[117] Was your personality shaped by that desire to sort of keep her in good spirits or win over her affection?

[118] I think it taught me some amazing skills in reading people.

[119] So also my granny was unbelievably good at this as well.

[120] So people used to think my granny was psychic because somebody would walk in the room and she'd go, are you okay?

[121] And they'd walk in smiling, but there would be an eyebrow raise or a flicker of an eye or something.

[122] And she'd go, you're all right.

[123] And they go, oh God, you're not granny psychic.

[124] She can read me. She can see straight to him.

[125] I feel like being with my mother, she could walk, I could hear by the way she walked what person she was going to be when she walked through the door.

[126] I could hear the steps coming and I'd think, I know how to behave the minute she walks through that door.

[127] so that's an amazing gift and that's how I choose to see everything that's happened to me I am absolutely not a victim sure some of it's been hard and it's like you said I'm happy we were talking just before we started I'm happy and yes life throws me curveballs but I choose to learn from those and still be happy rather than cling on to the curveball and let it pull me down.

[128] But I often wonder whether it was the hardship that made me, when, you know, small winds or little winds in my life were massive.

[129] Oh, yeah.

[130] You know, a hug from my mum that felt a little bit like a parental hug rather than a needy or an angry or, that would be a huge, like, I'd done out on that for a month.

[131] I'd be like, yeah, but I got a hug two weeks ago that was epic, you know, so I think you hold on to these little things but I don't know some kids might not they might not see or feel that thing because they don't have that in them I wonder whether we are born with it it's such an interesting concept positivity can you make yourself positive if you aren't that have you ever spoken to the speakmans I remember going on this morning the speakmans are a couple nick and Eva they're on this morning as kind of psychology experts they kind of they're like they help you train yourself out of patterns of behaviour, those guys said something that if you are a negative person at the end of, you know, it's raining and it's rain for the third day in a row, you finish your negative sentence with, but luckily.

[132] And you have to say, but luckily, and then think of something, but luckily.

[133] But luckily, it was so dry in the summer, it does mean that the reservoirs will be full.

[134] And you finish every negative thought with the positive and they said it takes about two to three weeks to naturally start thinking but you know that's probably not a bad thing but it's just remembering to do that is so hard when you when you were when you were like 1617 you know you said you'd started doing drugs with your mother in in France but what did you want to be when you were older if I'd asked you at 16 I probably probably need to clarify actually that me and my mum only did drugs twice okay I mean I know that's twice times too many in my book.

[135] But I don't want to give this impression that she and I were taking tons of drugs together because that would be a false impression.

[136] I just needed to put that there, yeah.

[137] But what did I want to be when I was 16?

[138] Yeah, I was quite nihilistic, I think, in a way.

[139] I wasn't thinking about anything except for the weekend.

[140] And where was I going to go and what club could I go to and how could I go out and what how could I party and that was beginning I moved to London when I was nearly 14 and when I moved to London suddenly the safety of the country had disappeared and I started finding ways to go out and take drugs and find people that took drugs in London I was living with my dad my stepmom and they were very kind of solid straight people but my life did slightly change then so I wasn't really thinking about anything at that point really the time when I started forming an idea and I was basically just a show off would have been 18 I was basically just a show off yeah um because I think because I had this fear of abandonment if I was if I did look at me look at me enough look at me I'm here everybody don't need me needy people pleaser everybody like me like that that's who I was and actually what drugs did for me at that time was they made me feel safe.

[141] They made me feel like I was being hugged in that maternal way that they filled this hole that I had here.

[142] And then as soon as the drug started running out, the hole would feel like sort of the hole would be there again.

[143] And I think, oh my God, where's the nearest thing I can get?

[144] You know, man, laughter, attention, drug, like help fill the whole.

[145] So I was always a bit of kind of, you know, bit of a show off.

[146] And at 18, you drop out of university?

[147] Never went.

[148] Nearly went to university.

[149] Didn't go to university.

[150] And this is always something that I want to say to kids.

[151] I didn't really know what I was doing.

[152] I was an absolute car crash, I would say, until I was 23, 24.

[153] So when I was 19, I'd left school, I went to Australia for a few months.

[154] I came back and I thought, I'm going to save up money.

[155] I'm going to get, you know, go working, I'm going to save up some money.

[156] I'm going to try and get enough money to go back to Australia and live there.

[157] I loved it out there.

[158] I was clean.

[159] I wasn't taking any drugs.

[160] I was just driving to the beat.

[161] I mean, it was such a different me. And I liked that me. That was the nun.

[162] Like, my nun was freed in Australia and I thought, I quite like this person.

[163] I like who I am.

[164] And then a girlfriend of mine said, I'm going to Santa Pae for two weeks.

[165] Do you want to come?

[166] And I was like, yeah, but I haven't got much money because I had all my savings and stuff.

[167] And I didn't want to delve into that.

[168] She had quite a lot of money.

[169] And bless her, she came on the coach with me from Victoria down to Santa Pae.

[170] And her parents had a house there.

[171] And then I started dipping into the savings.

[172] and then in two weeks I'd spunked £800 that I'd saved up for my flight to go back to Australia and I never went back and that was a kind of, you know, that was the wild child me dancing on tables in Le Cavdioua and Santrapay till God knows what time in the morning hitching a lift off people in Ferraris trying to get back to, I mean awful, danger, danger, everywhere, how I'm still alive, I've got no idea.

[173] But hilarious, you know, it was just part of my performance.

[174] path, but that meant that I never went back to Australia.

[175] And I got a job as a waitress.

[176] I was a really, really good waitress.

[177] I loved waitressing.

[178] Did you ever do that?

[179] Well, my mum had a restaurant when I was super young, so I did it a little bit, but I was so young that it was more just of a gimmick, you know, he'll get loads of tips because he's 11.

[180] But not properly, no. I learned a lot.

[181] I bet you did.

[182] I learned a ton from working in that restaurant, yeah, about people in customer service and stuff.

[183] And then I worked in like, you know, there was a shop called Republic, like retail a lot.

[184] I worked a lot.

[185] I did that as well.

[186] What did you learn?

[187] Well, just people.

[188] I mean, people skills and what people want and that the customer is the most important person.

[189] You said people pleaser.

[190] Yeah, I mean, that's my natural, that was my natural habitat.

[191] So I'd go and I'd like make people feel amazing while they're having their meal and make sure that they had the best service ever.

[192] And it felt like a win to me. You know, at the end of the night, I thought, I've done a really good job.

[193] I've made loads of people really happy.

[194] And that made me feel good about myself.

[195] So it was a great job for me. When did you first realise that you wanted to do something in media TV?

[196] Or was it more chance?

[197] Yeah, no, so that's quite a good story.

[198] So I got a job at Models 1 after the, and it was by chance.

[199] It was complete fluke.

[200] I got a job at Models 1 working on, Stephen, the male models section at Models 1.

[201] I was a booker for the male models.

[202] I mean, I'm telling you 19 or 20 -year -old me walking in there.

[203] I was like, this is the best job ever.

[204] All these gorgeous men.

[205] I fell in love every 30 seconds for the first week.

[206] And then what was interesting, it just became, they just became normal.

[207] I was like, oh, there's another good looking guy, whatever.

[208] Desensitized.

[209] Yeah, it's so funny, though, how quickly that happens.

[210] But I'm still friends with loads of them now.

[211] Again, it was a great time in my life.

[212] Slightly car crash, lots of drugs, lots of kind of madness.

[213] also a very kind of good time in time in terms of work and having fun so I was at this agency loads of beautiful models everywhere I get approached by this guy who knows I love music and he said you want to run a club with me at subterranean and I said yeah great and he said bring all the beautiful people so these club nights caught the attention of somebody at MTV who was going to launch MTV Europe and they needed to for the launch of MTV Europe in Amsterdam, get loads of celebrities from the UK to Amsterdam, but do it in a really cool MTV way.

[214] So me and this girl called Sarah Blonstein and a guy called Graham, we were in charge of entertaining the celebrities from Victoria train station to Amsterdam and back.

[215] And it was like, Duran, Duran, Zodiac Mind Warp, I mean, it was really, really fun.

[216] And I dressed up as a cleaning lady, lipstick on my teeth, curlers in my head.

[217] a tea urn full of champagne, and it was riotous.

[218] And at the end of that night, when we were heading back from Amsterdam on the plane, I thought to myself, I'm going to work at MTV.

[219] That is the best place.

[220] Those are the best people.

[221] And while I was there at that night, and this is another defining moment.

[222] That night, when I'd gone, I said to someone, can I get your number?

[223] Because I'd love to kind of look at job prospects at MTV.

[224] Would it be all right?

[225] And he's like, yeah, sure.

[226] I had the number and I thought, I'm going to call this guy.

[227] And then I called him and I said, you know, would it be all right?

[228] Can I, to sort of send you a show reel if I did a show reel?

[229] Because I'd like to be a presenter on, I didn't even know the word VJ then on MTV.

[230] And he was like, yeah, sure, sure.

[231] And I started making show reels.

[232] And I must have sent him, like, three a year and relentlessly called him until he said, please stop calling me after a couple of years.

[233] He said, could you just, like, I can't give you a job at the moment.

[234] We only want European presenters.

[235] And I said, can you give me someone else's number?

[236] And I'll call them instead.

[237] And he went, yeah, you can take Mike Kafton's number.

[238] So I took Mike Kauffman's number.

[239] And eventually, a year later, Mike Kauffman said, there's a vacancy.

[240] So I'm 24.

[241] I've just got clean.

[242] I'm six months clean and sober.

[243] I'm absolutely radioactive.

[244] I can't believe I'm sober.

[245] I still can't believe I'm waking up with dry sheets.

[246] You know, we're talking about small winds.

[247] My sheets were dry in the morning.

[248] And I'd know when I woke up and I saw daylight and I think, I know this is morning.

[249] This is amazing.

[250] That's such a win.

[251] Sheets are dry.

[252] Yeah, sweating.

[253] I used to sweat in bed withdrawing at night.

[254] And my sheets were dry.

[255] Is this, what drug causes that?

[256] So heroin.

[257] So I was in the end addicted to heroin for maybe the last three months of my using.

[258] But the nun took over, I think, at that point and was like, you are addicted.

[259] Now you have to stop.

[260] What was that moment that were, and what was, can you really zoom in on that moment of, you reach a point and you go, this has to change?

[261] So my best friend had said she was going to.

[262] going to take me to Santana.

[263] She didn't use or drink really.

[264] She'd had a brain injury when she was younger and she couldn't for 10 years.

[265] So she didn't.

[266] And she got me into her car and I was like, I'm so excited about going to see Santana.

[267] I was probably...

[268] What's Santana?

[269] It's a band.

[270] Stephen Bartlett.

[271] I know.

[272] Sorry.

[273] Go and do some revision.

[274] Okay.

[275] I'm so, Santana.

[276] We'll play all day.

[277] Can I just say something?

[278] You're going to really like them.

[279] Santana.

[280] I'm going to like them.

[281] Really.

[282] Okay.

[283] And I got in the car.

[284] and she shut the doors and she said I'm actually not going to take you to Santana I need to tell you some things I was like yeah and she said I know that you've been lying to me weirdly I'd been off heroin for a month at that point because I'd been away I'd done a geographical I'd gone away looking after someone's nannying for someone for two weeks and got clean and then I'd also been with my mum in Morocco so I had no heroin for a month but I had just come off the back of a 24 -hour cocaine vendor which had made me realize that heroin wasn't my problem all drugs were my problem if I wasn't taking heroin I couldn't take cocaine normally either I couldn't just take it for four hours and then go to bed I had to take it for 24 hours I was an animal I thought oh my god I'm not just addicted to heroin heroin it's all drugs I've got to stop she gets me in the car and she goes I know you've been lying to me we all know you've been lying to me to us, all your friends and you are the topic of conversation at every dinner party I go to and this shame starts piling on and I started feeling a bit well fuck you to her and this is virtually my only friend I've got left and I do say well fuck you like fuck you I didn't really know what to say because I couldn't really argue with what she was saying and I said yeah I didn't want to go and see something really childish like I didn't want to go and see Sentana anyway.

[285] Get out of the car.

[286] I'm trying to get out the car.

[287] She's slightly shut the doors.

[288] It's all eggy, awkward.

[289] slam the door, walk away from her, immediately burst into tears and think I'm not going to turn around and let her see.

[290] I'm crying, you know, get inside, go straight to bed.

[291] My parents, you know, I was sleeping on a campbed in my dad's sort of wardrobe.

[292] I'd move out of my boyfriend's home.

[293] His fault that I was using.

[294] I'd got worse.

[295] I'd left my job.

[296] I thought that was the thing that was making me use.

[297] I'd got worse.

[298] I had a car, but no money to put petrol in the car.

[299] I had not, I put nothing.

[300] I was on this camp bed and I would sort of walk into the, like my room, which wasn't really a room.

[301] It was a cupboard.

[302] Sit on the bed, go to sleep.

[303] And then an hour later I wake up and I think, I'm going to phone someone for help.

[304] I'm fucked.

[305] I can't do this anymore.

[306] I phone this woman who I knew was clean and it was as if she'd been expecting my call she goes oh hi divina and i was like i was just wondering if you're going to a meeting um tomorrow she's like yeah yeah i'm going at six o 'clock you know world's end come and meet me there i was like oh yeah you know i'm just interested to see what you know what it's like she's just yeah great come along if you want she didn't ask me what's going on she didn't ask which was exactly right and the next morning I woke up and I felt so full of shame and I thought I'll go and see Sarah so I went to see Sarah at work at lunchtime sobbed I said I'm not expecting you to believe me and I know I'm going to have to prove myself but I just wanted to let you know I want to change and I want to do something about it and I'm going to go to a meeting tonight and I could see a slight sort of are you really like is this really going to happen I just thought I I don't know how much more I can give you, tell you, but I really, really mean it.

[307] So I went to a meeting that night, just spent the next two weeks going to meetings every day.

[308] Well, and for 90 days after, sobbing, just sobbing in every meeting of surrender.

[309] I don't care what I have to do.

[310] I will literally do anything to stop feeling like this.

[311] And N .A. taught me how to live and how to change and how to heal.

[312] heal myself.

[313] I owe N .A. my life, literally.

[314] But it also gave me my career.

[315] And weirdly, having tried to get a job at MTV while I was using all those years, the time they say come in for an interview, we're going to finally screen test you after three years of trying.

[316] I was six months clean.

[317] And I didn't mess it up.

[318] You know, I turned up on time.

[319] In fact, I turned up a bit early.

[320] That was new for me. I turned up clean and smelling like flowers and with a smile on my face and colour in my cheeks.

[321] That was new for me. You said NAA taught you how to heal.

[322] What did you learn about healing?

[323] And what did you learn about why you were addicted to narcotics?

[324] Well, I learned about fear of abandonment.

[325] I probably hadn't heard that as a phrase.

[326] I didn't understand.

[327] From listening to other people talk about their experiences, sometimes I'd think, oh, no, that wasn't quite my experience.

[328] I don't think that's why I used.

[329] And then I remember hearing someone and thinking, that's exactly me, that hole.

[330] And it never fills up.

[331] And you're constantly trying to fill it with anything.

[332] And then when they said, here is where I'm learning to fill it myself.

[333] And I thought, that's what I want.

[334] I want to line the hole with something impermeable.

[335] that means it will fill up and never empty again.

[336] And there are steps in Narcotics Anonymous in any 12 -step program.

[337] And, you know, if you work through these steps.

[338] And it is like people would go, oh, it's like a cult, you know, it's really bad.

[339] But I did replace my addiction with addiction to Narcotics Anonymous, but I know which addiction I'd rather have.

[340] Like, I went all the time, often twice a day, because it was the only place where I felt completely normal.

[341] I'd be around other people going, yeah, I felt like that.

[342] Oh, yeah, I did that.

[343] Oh, God, I messed up this.

[344] Or, oh, yeah, I had, you know, liaisons with people that I didn't, I didn't care about.

[345] I didn't know, but I thought it would fix me. You'd think, God, these people are so honest.

[346] It's, I realize the power in honesty.

[347] I mean, that's your thing, right?

[348] Speak your truth.

[349] Yeah.

[350] It's powerful.

[351] Yeah.

[352] freeing oneself, isn't it?

[353] So I learned everything to help me. I did have like another transformational moment when I got hypnotized for a job that I was doing about eight years ago.

[354] And that was like, that was when the impermeable seal went on my fear of abandonment.

[355] And it was unexpected because I wasn't going to the hypnotist about that.

[356] I was going to the hypnotist about not feeling anxious going in a submarine to a thousand meters under the sea.

[357] Tiny three -person submarine where you can't stand up and there's no loo and it takes 40 minutes to get to the surface again.

[358] And I thought, I don't get claustrophobia, but I don't want to find out at a thousand meters under the sea that I am indeed claustrophobic.

[359] So I thought I'd better go and get hypnotized just to make sure.

[360] And that was.

[361] Have you ever done hypnotism?

[362] No. Oh, man. I mean, if you've got an issue that is something that you've worked on a lot and is hard to let go of.

[363] I mean, I didn't even think really that my fear of abandonment issue was still there.

[364] But I do think it was.

[365] And we did some regression work where I went back to me in the kitchen, looking at my granny, thinking my mom's not going to come back.

[366] and I don't know what to do and I feel a bit guilty.

[367] I think I've overstayed my welcome.

[368] And the hypnotist said, go get that divina, take her by the hand.

[369] He said, where's your favorite place in the garden?

[370] I said, the oak tree.

[371] So he said, take her to the oak tree, so I took her over to the oak tree, little me, four years old.

[372] And he said, okay, sit her down and sat her down.

[373] And he said, you know, comfort.

[374] I said, she looks worried.

[375] and he said comfort her I said I feel silly I don't know what to do it's me it feels weird and he said imagine she was one of your own children comfort her as if she was your child so I put my arm round her and I thought okay this is easier and then her head went on my on my chest and I was stroking her hair I said I don't know what to say I kept thinking he's looking to me to say something profound and I've got no idea how to do this And he said, well, why don't you tell her it's all going to be okay?

[376] And I really started crying, like really crying.

[377] Right.

[378] And he said the same thing, it was up.

[379] And I said, it's not going to be okay.

[380] I take drugs.

[381] I make stupid decisions.

[382] I put myself in danger.

[383] It's bad.

[384] And he went, but look at you now.

[385] And it was like, oh my God.

[386] look at me now.

[387] I'm great.

[388] And it was like everything went, you know, all the cogs and the wheels and my brain all went click.

[389] I am going to be okay.

[390] I looked at her and I got like her head of my hands and I was like, you are going to be okay.

[391] Your life is going to be amazing and it will be It's full of ups and downs, but you are going to be okay.

[392] And he said, you can take her back.

[393] Let's take her back.

[394] So I went up to the kitchen.

[395] And I put her down in the seat.

[396] And she's smiling at me. And then he says, we can leave now.

[397] But he said, before we leave, I want you to just turn round and look at her one last time and tell me what she looks like.

[398] I said, she looks happy.

[399] And he said, great.

[400] And then he brought me around.

[401] I was like bawling This is amazing What's happened?

[402] What's just happened?

[403] And he said, we've planted a seed And he said, let's just wait and see what happens there He said, this was basically to stop you feeling like you're going to be abandoned At the bottom of the sea But actually, I think maybe we've done something bigger here It might be kind of amazing what happens And a couple of things happened after that where I said actually it's not okay to treat me like that.

[404] I would never have said that before because I was worried you'd abandon me. If I stood up to you and said, hmm, not okay.

[405] I'd think, oh, you might not like me anymore.

[406] It was very important that everybody liked me. And suddenly I was like, actually, I can stand up for myself in a non -aggressive way and not actually mind if you like me or not because I'm doing it for me. And I feel like from that moment, I've been a different person.

[407] In all of my decisions, in my outlook on life, it's been mega.

[408] So your career then in TV, one of the things I read is that it was heavily fuelled.

[409] We kind of talked about this before we start recording by your desire to be famous.

[410] Yes.

[411] I mean, the first MTV thing, so I'd wanted to be a singer, another desire to be famous.

[412] I wasn't good enough.

[413] I was like, I would be an amazing backing vocalist.

[414] My nickname at home is the harmonizer.

[415] I can't listen to a track without harmonising to it.

[416] I absolutely have to.

[417] It's annoying at some point there, isn't it?

[418] Yeah, because all my kids are like, oh my God.

[419] In the car, I'm always like, hmm, mm -hmm.

[420] You know, like they're going, oh, my God, like, stop.

[421] If I could have turned my family into the Von Trapson, and I really tried.

[422] Like that way, or made them all do choir.

[423] I all had to kind of do singing lessons.

[424] They just weren't buying it at all.

[425] And I'm so upset about that.

[426] But if I could have had the Von Traps, that would have been my dream.

[427] Anyway, failed singer.

[428] What else can I do to get famous?

[429] All of this obviously, mum, look at me. You made a mistake.

[430] Look how great I am.

[431] That's at the back of everything, right?

[432] And, I mean, for example, when I was 15 or 16, and I did quite well in my O levels.

[433] They were O levels back then.

[434] It's how old I am.

[435] And I called up my mum to tell her I'd done quite well in my O levels.

[436] She was really angry because she felt like I was just trying to show her up or that, you know, don't think that you're – she was drunk.

[437] She was drunk.

[438] She took it badly.

[439] She felt that it was me trying to say that she wasn't good enough or that she'd done something, you know.

[440] And I was so confused by that.

[441] that I thought I'm going to show you, like I'm going to make you want to...

[442] Anyway, my aim was I want to get my own show on MTV.

[443] That's what I want.

[444] And I got my own show on MTV and I presented the first show and I went up to the dressing room afterwards and I cried and I cried and I cried and I cried and I couldn't figure out why I was crying and I called my sponsor, which is something you have in Narcotics Anonymous, who's there to help you decipher yourself.

[445] And she said, right, you know, we picked it apart and picked it apart and picked it.

[446] it apart and I said it hasn't fixed the hole it it didn't make me think oh my mum's going to want me back and then to top it all off my mum did call me and say she'd seen it because you could see it in France because it was European and she said what you know you think you should stop pulling the faces you pull these faces and I was like that was not the desired effect I did not want you to think that I wanted you to think wow you are amazing you know and um so it was it was a really heavy moment and then i thought wow i need to warn everybody you know being famous you've got to do it for the right reasons i did it for the wrong reasons and now i'm here and i've got this job and i'm on the wheel and i don't know how to you know i can't get off i didn't want to get off i mean i was enjoying my job don't get me wrong working MTV were some of the greatest years of my lives my life but actually it's probably is lives I've had lived about 10 different lives in my lifetime and MTV was one of them but I think that that realization that the thing that I'd been aiming for that I thought was going to fix me and it didn't was like again the end of something and the start of another phase of my life okay well you're going to have to find it inside somehow And that whole, you referred to, is that whole filled now?

[447] Filled.

[448] Yeah.

[449] I mean, I've.

[450] 100 % filled.

[451] I've never been so happy.

[452] Like, I can't even, I sat.

[453] Do you know, it was really funny because I said, I said to my boyfriend this morning, I said, I'm going to do this thing with Stephen Bartlett this morning.

[454] And he was like, oh, my God.

[455] I said, I am not going to cry.

[456] I'm like, I haven't done Pearz Morgan specifically for this reason because I was like, I am not going to sit under it.

[457] But it's weird because it's the thing, I could talk about my pain until the cows come home and not feel a thing because it's so far removed from me and it was a long time ago and I've processed and processed and processed it.

[458] But feeling happy like is so alien, like 100 % like joyous.

[459] sitting on the train and just feeling so good this morning and it's not like euphoria or a druggie happy or a fake eye it's content oh my god it's like i can't i cannot quite believe it and i and i don't you know i've been walking forwards but i don't know how i got here just walked forwards you know But settling, settling down, I feel like I've grounded in a way that I've never had before.

[460] And, you know, I think it's so important to talk about this stuff because at 55, if you'd have said to 30 -year -old me, what's life going to look like when you're 55?

[461] I'm going to say really sad.

[462] I probably won't be doing TV anymore it won't want me and I'll be really boring and I won't be having fun anymore and so and I think my God I couldn't be wrong more wrong like I've got to go and tell everybody quick tell everyone it's going to be okay Stephen it's going to be okay I've never heard someone say to me that their feelings of happiness make them emotional.

[463] Oh, when I think about it, well, because I'm grateful.

[464] And I think because, you know, we were talking about what makes you a positive person, I think it's because you think it's been a roller coaster, right?

[465] It's for you.

[466] It's been a roller coaster.

[467] But like, it's not about the Lambeau or the house or the mansion.

[468] It's about this.

[469] And your roller coaster and your journey to money.

[470] and making it and then realizing it doesn't fix you and then you fixing yourself by being on a journey of self -discovery which you massively are by talking to all these different people you're like taking little bits from everything that somebody says to you and thinking I'm going to use this for me that was a great tool thank you very much I'm going to have that it's like you are healing yourself this is your NA meeting this is your this is your recovery I feel like you just blown my cover.

[471] Yeah, this is your recovery.

[472] And how amazing is that?

[473] It's cravesy privileged.

[474] Yeah.

[475] But in, you know, and it's just going to, these are all seeds that are planted in you that just continue to grow.

[476] So life gets better.

[477] You know, Mother Nature throws you crapey knees and creaky elbows and crow's feet.

[478] But it also throws you a full heart and a peaceful mind.

[479] Your career, your career in TV, that whole journey, it's been one of the most incredible careers that I think most people could ever hope for in any industry ever.

[480] You know, the top of your game.

[481] I first came to learn about you because of Big Brother, but there's a career before that and there's a long, long career after that.

[482] When you reflect on what advice you would have given yourself or why you made it to the very top of that pyramid, what is the answer, Davina?

[483] I mean, this is another thing that I marvel at every day because I've been many times in my career where I've thought, this is it.

[484] It was interesting.

[485] After Big Brother finished, I contacted a friend of mine who was like a tech, a techie person.

[486] And I'd had this thought, like after Big Brother, I thought, who am I?

[487] And where am I going to go?

[488] and it could all end and as the person that was providing the roof and the food on the table it was on like me I had to think of my next step what was I going to do I'm not sure how long television's going to last I mean it's still going which is amazing for me but I thought I need to get into technology and the internet and I need to go online and I came up with an idea for I thought about it in terms of terms of an exhibition centre, but you could put that online where you would have everything from money, advice, personal advice, mental advice, kids advice.

[489] And I went and talked to a few people about it and for whatever reason it didn't happen.

[490] But it wasn't meant to happen.

[491] I tried to get it off the ground for like two or three years.

[492] I tried to make it a TV program.

[493] I tried to make it an exhibition.

[494] I tried to make it an online thing.

[495] And you know when you're swimming against the tide with an idea and at some point you've just got to take your hands off the steering one and go like that wasn't meant to happen but then I got offered long lost family now long lost family I've been filming that program now for 13 years it makes me feel so good that show and I've helped so many people on it which has been so wonderful to be part of that moment in their life where they learned something that's been a niche that they couldn't scratch for years and years and we can provide that scratch so I always think well just start walking in that direction and something else will come along but never just sit down and wait you know I've never sat down and thought oh I'm just going to I'm just going to stay here and and wait for something to happen to me I've got no embarrassment or shame about emailing a TV company or a head of a TV company and going have you thought about this what about this Can I present that if it happens?

[496] Can I do this?

[497] I'm literally begging ITV to let me present Midlife Love Island.

[498] I could fill a villa in Love Island with middle age people, with the best backstories you have ever heard in your life.

[499] They've lived a life.

[500] They're widows.

[501] They're people who have been through horrific divorces.

[502] They are people who have split up with somebody and decided they want to try going out with somebody the same sex as them.

[503] They're like interesting people.

[504] I'd watch that show.

[505] That's really interesting.

[506] Yeah, and I was like, I need to present it, please.

[507] What are they saying about that?

[508] They said, oh, we're looking at something else that's quite similar.

[509] We might consider you for that.

[510] Well, if I hadn't sent them that email in the first place, they wouldn't have thought about me for the other show, maybe.

[511] You've got to make opportunities happen.

[512] They never just come to you.

[513] Keep walking.

[514] I'm always talking to my kids.

[515] Just keep walking.

[516] Something will come.

[517] Kind of form, build the foundations.

[518] and just keep walking, and as you're walking, you're laying more and more path.

[519] Don't sit and wait for the path to be laid because it'll never come to you.

[520] There's this word manifestation you've used in this conversation.

[521] What role and what does that mean to you?

[522] You're talking there about proactively like attacking the day.

[523] I almost liken it to the analogy I've given before is when you get in your car in the morning, you set the sat down, which is the manifestation, but then you've got to drive.

[524] If you just do one, if you just drive, you're going to get lost.

[525] If you just set the sat down if you're going to be in your garage, all day.

[526] You have to do both together.

[527] You've talked about how you attack, like send the email, make the phone call, pass to the person at MTV.

[528] But then what role does like the manifestation play in all of that?

[529] It's interesting because you said you've got, it's all very well putting it in, the sat nav is the manifestation, but then you've got to drive the car.

[530] Yeah.

[531] But in, in my mind, I see that if you start, if you know where you're going, your car self -drives, Like, you almost are always walking in the direction because you can see it.

[532] I know that at some point I will do this.

[533] Interesting.

[534] So I've sent this email to this woman and I've just told you about it because this was a manifestation.

[535] It's triggered my memory that I've told us, I'm going to send a follow -up email today.

[536] Now, is that, is my car self -driving?

[537] It kind of is like, because I'm, been telling you about a manifestation because I had it in the first place, you've just reminded me, I'm going to send the email.

[538] That for me is the difference, though, because there's so many people, and we all know them, that have sofa ideas.

[539] They'll turn to you while they're watching, you know, I've got this idea for this TV show.

[540] Sometimes they're really good, right?

[541] Fantastic.

[542] But it doesn't matter because they don't have the next bit, which is, I'm going to get up and send an email.

[543] And like you've just said, I'm going to send another one.

[544] That for me is turning the key in the ignition.

[545] Yes, maybe, yeah.

[546] There's a lot of people.

[547] people that are going, oh, I'm sat now from Tom Tom.

[548] This is where I want to go someday.

[549] And then they just relax back into the chair in the car.

[550] And nothing happens.

[551] And then there's some people I meet, tends to be the people that sit here with me, that took that weird kind of nothing to lose first step.

[552] And you go, that was rude.

[553] Or you go, oh, really, you just like, showed up there?

[554] Or you just begged them on email.

[555] And those are the people that I tend to sit here with.

[556] So Anita Rodick started the body shop.

[557] And she, lit kind of my, um, lit the wick of kind of interest in, lit the fuse, I mean, of my interest in activism.

[558] And she was saying, um, you know, if you don't think that you have the power as one person, then you've never been to bed with a mosquito.

[559] She said, be as annoying as a mosquito.

[560] And I was like, I think that's me. I am as annoying as a mosquito.

[561] And that when I meet somebody and I bet you're the same, Stephen, when you see a kid and a kid comes up to you and goes, Stephen, can I have your number?

[562] Because I've got an idea and I want to come and pitch it to you.

[563] You would go, yes, absolutely.

[564] Whereas other people might think, oh, I can't do that because he's Stephen Bartlett, or I'll have to email him, or, oh, no, I've seen him on the telly, I can't approach him.

[565] But when you meet a bullsy kid and they go, can I come and shadow you for a day or give me a number I want to?

[566] You think, yeah, sure.

[567] Because I always respect the tenacity.

[568] and they're asking.

[569] I see myself in it a little bit.

[570] Exactly.

[571] I remember I was doing this podcast one day and I was recording with a guest and then I got up to walk out and the person they brought with them in their entourage was their niece and she goes to me, hi, Stephen.

[572] I know this is, I know you're leaving and I know you've just interviewed my auntie, but I have a podcast I've just started and I would like you to be on it.

[573] So can we record it now?

[574] Did you say yes?

[575] I was like, of course.

[576] I was like, let's sit down and we sat down and recorded for like 45 minutes for her podcast.

[577] Stop it.

[578] Her podcast is killing it.

[579] Shevani, isn't it?

[580] She's killing it now.

[581] Like, when I say killing it, she's actually killing it.

[582] She's like killing it now.

[583] But I remember doing a post on LinkedIn about that moment, tagged through it and said, I just respect the ask, you know?

[584] Because my life has been riddled with moments as I saw in yours where I just sent the email.

[585] I had nothing to lose while I was fucking stealing pizzas on my own in Manchester.

[586] What did I have to lose at that point by just sending loads of emails?

[587] I remember Sam's, I think it was Panasonic or Samsung, gave me free cameras.

[588] I sent an email.

[589] They were like, here's all the free cameras to start.

[590] your business.

[591] When I was 14, I sent these emails to this vending machine company.

[592] They fit to secondary school with free vending machines that we made profit from.

[593] So I'd learn the power of just like asking, nothing to lose.

[594] Maybe my ego might take an owl, but he gives a fuck.

[595] I've got nothing to do.

[596] And what's the worst that could happen?

[597] But I think also when the worst has happened.

[598] Yeah, you're not scared of it.

[599] It's happened.

[600] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[601] You know, getting a no to me is just a yes, that hasn't happened yet.

[602] I'm always like, oh, you're saying no, but you mean maybe.

[603] You mean maybe, right?

[604] You mean ask again.

[605] I sat here with Professor Galloway, Scott Galloway, and he told me about the arc of happiness where he says, you know, his idea was that our happiness kind of looks like a bit like a smile where kind of start happy at the start of our life.

[606] It gets a little bit difficult in the middle.

[607] And then at the end, the kind of 50 -ish age, when we go into that second spring, it's happy again, typically.

[608] Again, this is not the same for every, but it's kind of a generalisation.

[609] But at the bottom of the arc of happiness, when things are most difficult, is when we start losing people in our lives that we love.

[610] And I know 10 years ago you lost Caroline, your half -sister.

[611] Talk to me about that, that experience, and also generally the process of how you've dealt with that grief.

[612] It was definitely the worst thing that ever happened to me. to this day like the worst so I told you a little bit about Caroline with my mum and that she was six years older than me and she lived in Paris she was the result of my mum's pregnancy when she was 16 and she endured a lot well our lifetime with our mum and that was very hard on her and she was left with many hang -ups from that of she was because she used to find it hard to be completely honest all the time.

[613] So she'd tell big exaggerations about things or make -up stories.

[614] But this is because she'd had to lie to cover for my mum her entire life.

[615] Not all the time, but just she'd make her life a bit more exciting by telling untruths.

[616] And I don't want to do her a disservice in her death because we talked about this when she was alive.

[617] And I go, is that a poor key?

[618] And she'd start laughing.

[619] She'd go, well, it did happen, but this didn't happen, you know.

[620] But it was just trying, and I understood her, and she understood me and all my defects of character.

[621] And she knew exactly why I did things.

[622] And she was an insular person, quite an insular person.

[623] And her favourite thing would be to go, she lived with me always.

[624] We had six dark years when we didn't live together.

[625] But she lived with me when I had a two -bed flat in Hammersmith.

[626] And we were very funny together.

[627] Like I just understood everything about her and she understood all my idiosyncrasies and I got all of hers.

[628] And so her favorite thing in the evening, you know, I love socialising, I'm a people person, I like going out, I am touch.

[629] She would be TV dinner, food en lap, foie gras, a ton of butter, French bread, glass of red wine, spliff.

[630] If I would say to her, do you want to come for a walk around the garden?

[631] She was French, fully French, so her mum and her dad were French.

[632] And I'd say, do you want to come for a walk around the garden?

[633] She'd go, no. You know, exercise, not her thing.

[634] Absolutely hilarious person.

[635] So funny.

[636] But very secretive.

[637] And I was, bleh.

[638] I would tell her everything.

[639] She would tell me nothing.

[640] It was very annoying.

[641] I would walk around naked in front of her all the time.

[642] I go, come, I'd phone her out, I'd go, Carolyn, come and talk to me when I have a bath.

[643] I mean, I was so annoying.

[644] I was an annoying little sister, right, I'm until the very end.

[645] So she'd come over to the house and she'd sit on the floor and I'd go, like, talk to me, tell me everything what's happened at work, blah, blah, blah.

[646] And then I'd share something or I'd talk about a problem and she'd help me iron it out.

[647] She was amazing, so good to talk to, so kind of wise, always.

[648] bit painfully honest with me. Yeah, but you know you're overstepping the mark or you know you shouldn't be doing this.

[649] She was the only person that could do that with me. But because she was so secretive, things were going a bit awry.

[650] So she just had her 50th birthday.

[651] And she sort of walked into a door once.

[652] A door was half open and she kind of walked into it.

[653] I was like, didn't you see that?

[654] I thought she's been smoking too much, bliff, you know.

[655] And then she was sitting at the table.

[656] and she was talking to me and she had a glass in her right her left hand.

[657] She had a glass in her left hand and as she was talking to me I was watching the glass.

[658] Her left hand was tipping further and further over to the side and I was watching the glass and the water was just and I went Caroline your hand and she went oh but she had to look at it to tip it back up and I was thinking that's very weird and she became a bit clumsy and I thought too much weed or menopause or something she became a bit forgetful she got going off menopause I can't remember what's going on she had a sore back and she'd fallen over we'd been in the garden and she'd fallen over and she kept going you know when I fell over my back's like still not right she used to cane the Advil I mean she was terrible with like painkillers she used to take sleeping pills you know she's slightly medicate herself weed sleeping pills Advil like all the time I just thought she's on another planet but it got to the point where I thought something is up and I'd invited her to come to France with us for half term.

[659] She always came on holiday with us.

[660] And she said no, which was very unlike her.

[661] And I was like, are you sure?

[662] She went, I just want to stay here.

[663] I'm so tired.

[664] I don't feel, just feel like I've got flu coming on.

[665] I was like, okay.

[666] I got back.

[667] She'd had flu all week.

[668] She'd been in bed all week.

[669] I was like, whoa, Caroline, like, I think maybe you should go see someone.

[670] She said, no, I think I'm coming out of it.

[671] Then the next morning, someone had been walking past her.

[672] window and they said Devine I think you should come I can hear Caroline shouting for help I got the key open the door she'd been on the floor all night she was in her pyjamas she'd soiled herself she couldn't move she was paralysed down half a body and I was like it's a stroke quick call the ambulance the quicker we can get seeing the better the rat car comes you know stroke expert he walks in he goes I don't think this is a stroke I was like but it must be a stroke because half her body's gone like this is what happens in a stroke they get her in an ambulance i'm now a bit worried i'm thinking if this isn't a stroke what is going on but i was just trying to be strong for her just go it's going to be fine we're going to get you to hospital and they're going to get it sorted it's probably you know bit menopause bit of whatever maybe you're smoking too much we get out of the hospital test after test after test and i was thinking brain scan i understand And then they said, we'd like to do a chest x -ray.

[673] And I was thinking, why are you doing a chest x -ray if it's clearly neurological?

[674] Off she goes to the chest x -ray.

[675] And then about an hour later, we get a doctor come in.

[676] And he goes, we've got something to tell you.

[677] And we're both thinking, yeah, we're in A &E, right?

[678] And he goes, yeah, you have primary lung cancer in both lungs.

[679] And you have two brain tumors.

[680] It's metastasized to your brain.

[681] and the pain in your back is where your lung cancer is then going into your bone so you probably have bone cancer as well I was like that can't be right and she went lung cancer and then she looked at me and she went it's all my fault I went it's not your fault like it's not your fault you've got lung cancer and she could see her just going tick tick smoking all those years smoking the smoking the smoking the weed And I was like, stop, stop.

[682] We need to think, like, what are we going to do?

[683] Like, okay, what are we going to do?

[684] In the meantime, I have to, I just said, I'm just going to go and call my mum and dad.

[685] I'm just going to go and call them and just let them know what's happening.

[686] And I called them.

[687] I couldn't breathe.

[688] I was like in the corridor going, I think I'm, I think I'm going to have like some kind of attack.

[689] Like, I can't.

[690] I can't process it I don't understand what's happening that I think they're telling me because they hadn't said the word die I think they're telling me Caroline's dying like she's got so much cancer that she's dying I said I'll keep you posted I go freshen up my face there was a nurse there that I've seen a couple of times since when I've taken my kids into A &E and I always give her a bit of a special hug because she came up to me in the corridor.

[691] And she was like, are you okay?

[692] And I was like, I'm not okay.

[693] She was like, what's going on?

[694] And I said, well, my sister's got this and this.

[695] And she was like, I'm really sorry.

[696] She just gave me a hug.

[697] And that was it.

[698] And then she went, I've never forgotten it.

[699] You know, that hug, I needed touch.

[700] I needed someone to, I went back in, kind of tried to dry off my eyes or what have you.

[701] We just sat there in silence, really.

[702] And then lots of people came in and were looking at her.

[703] one of the saddest things was someone lifted up her back to put the stethoscope on her back and listened to her and I saw a I know this is going to sound so weird but I saw a blackhead on her back and it was massive and it had grown into kind of a sore it looked horrible and I thought no one sees you no one sees you naked no one you don't let anyone in like I am the closest and even I am not in because you are so protective of that painful child she'd never done the work she'd never got to NA or AA she wasn't really an addict I mean you know she smoked a lot of weed but I didn't see her as an she wasn't an alcoholic she wasn't but she had she'd put a fence around her and everybody was at the fence and she had so many friends that loved her so much but nobody got inside the fence and it made me so so sad and I thought I'm fucking climbing over the fence and I'm going to get in for however long you've got left because you are not shutting me out we had the best talks she was in hospital for month we had the most amazing brilliant talks that I thought god why is it that when you're dying we get to do this why did we not do this a year ago like if anybody's listening and they feel like they've got a relative that they want to get into or get do it now don't wait for someone to die because the best seven weeks of my life with my sister with those last seven weeks of hers and so she had a month in the hospital and then I said I want to get her home to her cottage had to go around and find all her weed and it was everywhere I literally could have you know started dealing she had that much weed squirreled away I think she'd forgotten half of the places that she'd had it squirreled away I chucked it all away um I wasn't I didn't find that hard at all like I wasn't I was never interested in weed so it was easy for me I um set up her house got the plumber in put in things for her to hold um occupational therapy came and told me all the places where I need to put stuff harnesses hospital beds blah blah blah set up her whole cottage got her back home and just hung out with her and we got a carer and she she had chemo booked in but the first chemo was booked in for two days after she died And we thought she had six months.

[704] We wrote a bucket list.

[705] And on the bucket list was just the sweetest stuff, like go to France one more time and see the kids.

[706] We tried to make as much of it happen, get loads of her friends down.

[707] A lot of the stuff we couldn't do.

[708] Again, like, why do people do bucket lists when they're dying?

[709] Like, do bucket lists when you're alive.

[710] And also, I would challenge anybody listening to this podcast because this was a real thing for me. If somebody said to me, Davina, you have got six months to live, what's like the most important thing to you now?

[711] Like what really matters?

[712] Don't wait for somebody to say that you've got six weeks to live.

[713] Say I love you to all of my friends, all of the people that I love, non -stop.

[714] Check in with people, call people, make sure they're okay, spend time with people, make the decisions where you think, if I was to die tomorrow, is this the decision that I'd be happy with?

[715] Equally, if you've got somebody very toxic in your life and they are really ruining your life, you know, if you had six months to live, you would be, the first thing I'd do is let go of this toxic person.

[716] Do not wait.

[717] You know, do it now.

[718] And you deserve to be happy.

[719] You deserve to not have this toxic person in your life.

[720] And Caroline, again I guess you know I'm always looking for lessons she taught me so much in her death she was so brave she never once complained she never once got frightened she never cried and she tried to look after me and one of my most I'm sorry Stephen I know I'm talking a lot but there was one moment I do want to tell you about so obviously no one had ever seen the naked and she had this amazing carer called Claire oh my god she was the best ever she was the most gentle she understood respect and dignity and she knew Caroline almost straight away she knew what kind of person she was and Caroline would not let me get her undressed or ready for bed it was like I don't want you to see me naked and the night that she went to sleep for the final time and then three days later she died she was doing this kind of knitting thing with her hands she was really uncomfortable you could see there was something something had changed a bit and I was like hey you're okay and Claire didn't come until maybe seven or eight in the evening to put her to bed with the district nurse and she said I want to go to bed now oh no Claire was there but she needed somebody else to put her to bed because there was hoists and everything and I said well look Claire and I could do it but it would mean that it would be me and she went okay but laughing and I was like are you serious and she went yes and I went oh my god Caroline thank you thank you but at the same time I was like well you know I'm gonna cry like this is the this is Macca I've arrived you know this is my pilgrimage to my sister I've crawled over the fence and I'm now at her body and I said to her, would it be all right if I did the diprabase?

[721] Because I needed to diprobase her before she got into bed so.

[722] She didn't get bed sores.

[723] And that's like moisturising every inch of her body.

[724] And she went, yes, but you're not going to do it again.

[725] Like this is the only time.

[726] I'm going to let you do it once.

[727] And I said, and I got to, she had the softest skin.

[728] I'm very furry.

[729] My sister had no hair, like at all.

[730] She was bald as a coot.

[731] And her arms and stuff was so soft.

[732] I got the dip of breast.

[733] I was like, oh my God, Caroline, your arms are so soft.

[734] And she was laughing away.

[735] She was going, oh, my God, you are ridiculous.

[736] I was going, this is amazing.

[737] And I got to cream her whole body.

[738] And it felt like she'd given that to me. And it was hideous for her.

[739] And even when she was dying, she gave me a bit of herself that I had never had before.

[740] four and it was so nice and she went to sleep that night and actually in the middle of the night then they came and they gave her a bit more morphine they said okay she was really distressed she was calling me mummy and holding onto my hand she'd never been like that before and she they gave her some morphine and it calmed her down a bit and then for three days she just slept basically but I was with her when she went and it was really lovely and I kept talking to her the whole time because they say your hearing is the last thing that goes and I just wanted her to know I wasn't crying I was just trying to be really strong for her and I kept saying to her I'm going to be fine because I think out of everything she was worried about me do you know what I mean like that was her last thought like are you going to be all right because she knew how much of a backbone she was for me. That's what I meant about it being a reciprocal agreement.

[741] Like, it wasn't just me taking care of her.

[742] She was taking care of me. And it was a reciprocal agreement.

[743] And she wanted to make sure that I was going to be all right.

[744] And I kept going, I'm going to be fine.

[745] And I talked out all the time.

[746] But in the last five years, so I had a huge grieving thing, seven years after she died.

[747] I went, like, all summer.

[748] She died on the 1st of August.

[749] and all summer I couldn't shake off this cloud.

[750] And somebody online, interestingly, had said, often seven years after someone's died, it's like a bang.

[751] And I was like, this is what's happening to me, seven years.

[752] It's like so painful again.

[753] But since then, you know, and me being in a good place, I keep telling her, I keep going, oh man, like I wish you were here, like so I could show you.

[754] how great it is she'd be living with me now and you know she'd be so happy we'd be good i imagine myself i always thought that i'd be wheeling her around i always imagined she'd probably get emphysema and she'd have an oxygen tank and um i'd tell her that i'd go if you carry on doing that you're gonna get bloomin and i said but i'm happy to wheel you around i am we'll go and live by the seaside somewhere and you and me can be a couple of old grannies and i'll you know i'll take care of you but i didn't Never thought she'd die at 50.

[755] But she was a great person.

[756] But her passing, my dad, you know, when he died, he had Alzheimer's and it was expected.

[757] We knew it was coming.

[758] We'd spent 10 years preparing for it.

[759] It was still horrific.

[760] But he was 78.

[761] And I knew he'd lived an amazing life, but I still felt my sister had so much more to give, you know.

[762] What is that process of grief?

[763] like, you know, I ask these questions because I've been fortunate enough to not go through that arc of grief yet.

[764] And I think about it.

[765] It's been like, I think it haunts me a little bit in my head sometimes.

[766] That process of grief, what you learned from it, what you would, what you might impart on me. Do you ever feel like an island in your life, like, that your family all around you, but you're not quite attached, like you are slightly on your own?

[767] 100%.

[768] I always felt like that too.

[769] so I'm sort of attached but not quite attached and other people are attached but I've never and it's not a bad thing it's not because anybody's tried to detach me I just feel like an island maybe you didn't look in my case I feel like I didn't learn attachment I didn't learn how to you know I call my parents by their first names and I do you I don't you know I feel like we're in a family of islands that's called an archipelago is that what it's called yeah a group of islands all grouped together is an archipelago so I I don't, so your partner, I know you don't talk about personal life, but is it like two islands have come together?

[770] So you've formed a like a little, like I said to Michael, like Michael's Abitha and I'm Formantera.

[771] Oh, you?

[772] I'm the like the really kind of gorgeous, like hot, beautiful, Antsport Island next.

[773] And he's quite a party island.

[774] And we've formed like, we've now formed Abitha and Formantera, but we are two islands that have come together.

[775] but I feel like as just to talk about the grief thing my mum died my dad's died my sisters died I have an amazing stepmom who I love very much she's still with me but I have a half sister out in Australia who I love very much but I don't speak to as often because of the time differences and everything and so now I really I feel like an island I've got very close family and stuff it's not that I'm not close to my family but I do feel but I've got all my kids are on my island they're with me they're in me they're part of my DNA but it's just an interesting concept that feeling like but when you meet somebody and you really get on with them you can form a little bond but you're still two islands but there's a bridge but there's a bridge Hmm Funnily enough, my girlfriend is the opposite Which is funny because I sat here with a relationship Matchmaking expert And he talked about these three different types of attachment That we have One of them is like evasive I think that's what he said Where you're kind of trying to avoid the prospective connection You self -sabotage You're always trying to kind of run away from commitment The middle one was nervous Where you're always very nervous about attachment And that makes you need it And then the third one, he said, was, I'm going to paraphrase, basically a stable.

[776] We all know those people.

[777] All of their parents are together still.

[778] They have, you know, their parents seem to be best friends and work together.

[779] They end up being like best friends with their partner.

[780] They seem to have no problems.

[781] And he says, it's a risk when two aversives get together.

[782] It's also a risk when an aversive and a nervous get together because you have someone who, in my case, is trying to run.

[783] You have a girlfriend who wants attention and quality time.

[784] And I'm trying to run.

[785] and she's trying to, he said, you have to both together get to becoming a stable together.

[786] And I thought that was interesting because she has helped me to become stable.

[787] I don't run away, emotionally open, affectionate.

[788] But we managed to get there together.

[789] And maybe that's the bridge.

[790] Maybe when you feel, you know, does any of that resonate with you?

[791] Yeah, totally.

[792] Yeah.

[793] I mean, I think I'm in a stable for sure.

[794] Were you always?

[795] Were you always a stable attachment?

[796] type in relationships?

[797] No, because I had the fear of abandonment.

[798] Yeah.

[799] But then this, this, I feel like this hypnotist kind of transformed me to be able to form healthy friendships, um, changed my whole outlook, I think, on relationships.

[800] You wrote a book, it's here in front of me called menopauseing.

[801] Why?

[802] Why did you, why did you want to write a book on it?

[803] Writing books is a lot of effort.

[804] Yeah.

[805] You know, so you have to really want, want it.

[806] And you're now in a very intentional phase of your life.

[807] So this must have really, from everything I've learned about you so far, must have really mattered.

[808] Totally.

[809] I mean, I think I did, I did two documentaries, which were eye -opners for me. The first one was a huge risk.

[810] And I thought, oh, am I literally committing professional Harry Kiri here?

[811] Is my entire career going to implode now that I banging the menopause drum and telling everybody that I'm menopausal because I'd hidden it for so long I thought is this going to be a bad thing or a good thing I had no idea but my life was heading in this direction where I'd been talking to doctors and learning things and I thought I've got a platform and I don't understand when it's something that happens to every single woman it's not even like it happens to some women happens to every single woman and some trans men and we know nothing about it this is a crime to womanhood and it is also not good for society because women are behaving in a bizarre and irrational and over -emotional way sometimes 75 % of women have symptoms 25 % of women don't that those 75 % are going to be behaving or going through things that either will affect their jobs, their work, certainly will affect their relationships, certainly will affect their children's lives if they've got kids.

[812] And yet we don't know anything about it.

[813] Neither did you or you or like anybody else know anything about what was going on.

[814] And I thought, I have got a platform.

[815] And most of the people that follow me on this platform are women.

[816] I've got to do something about it.

[817] So I did this first documentary.

[818] And I kind of watched that at home, like, oh, my God.

[819] Is this going to, oh, God.

[820] And then I went out for a dog walk the next day.

[821] It's always on the dog walk.

[822] Stop three times.

[823] Yeah, it's always on a dog walk.

[824] It's always goes off.

[825] And when I walk the dog, it's like amazing.

[826] No, and I got stopped three times.

[827] And I was like, oh, hi, yeah, hi.

[828] And they went, oh, my God, we watched it last night.

[829] I was like, oh, wow, did you?

[830] And then one person cried.

[831] Another was a guy that stopped me and said, oh, I watched it with my wife.

[832] And then we called my wife's sister.

[833] Because my wife's sister's definitely, you know, she's been like lost for so long.

[834] And it's so good.

[835] And I thought, God, I think this is going to be great.

[836] I think this is going to really help people.

[837] This could be seriously good.

[838] But like page one of menopause questions, I still get asked, can I take HRT while I've still got periods?

[839] Yes, that is exactly when it's the best time to take HRT.

[840] Oh, my GP's told me I'm too young.

[841] No, 45 is a completely normal time.

[842] You're thinking, wow, I'm not reaching as many people as I thought I was.

[843] I've made these two programs and I've talked about it and I've shared about it and I've shared about it online and I've said you can watch it on all four and all of that.

[844] But I just thought there needs to be something where it can be on a table or in a loo or in a library or in an office space where people can go and reference and look something up and know that they are getting 100 % correct facts because the doctor that I wrote this with is unlike me, extremely fustigious about telling the truth and about getting correct scientifically, validated information out there.

[845] So me and her make quite a good team because I'm all the kind of huge feelings and passion and anger and laughter and silliness and she's the science.

[846] What are the symptoms?

[847] And what symptoms did you experience in your life?

[848] Because there'll be people listening to this now that are thinking, oh, they might have seen it in their parents.

[849] You know, I thought about people that I know when I first started learning about menopause from actually Gabby Logan, who said she actually, you played a huge role in her journey and her sort of figuring all of that stuff out.

[850] But what are those symptoms to be looking for?

[851] And how much do they impact one's life and relationships?

[852] So the symptoms can be varied.

[853] You can just get one symptom and it can absolutely flaw you or you could get five symptoms and they don't massively bother you or you might not get any symptoms at all.

[854] So 25 % of women go through it with absolutely like sail through.

[855] Don't even know that it's happened until their periods have stopped.

[856] then 50 % of women struggle a bit.

[857] Like I would put myself in that 50 % I struggled quite a bit.

[858] And then 25 % of women, it will be so bad that they will think extremely dark thoughts, often suicide, will feel complete hopelessness, have to leave their jobs, have to leave relationships or get left.

[859] It has catastrophic effects on their life.

[860] So the symptoms, estrogen, depletion in estrogen affects every organ.

[861] in your body.

[862] So forgetfulness, brain fog.

[863] I mean, that is chronic.

[864] Yeah.

[865] Where the fuck at my keys.

[866] Well done.

[867] Chapter in the book.

[868] Love that, Stephen.

[869] Thank you.

[870] You know, the forgetfulness is epic and embarrassing.

[871] And also another thing that makes you feel old overnight.

[872] Your body starts changing a bit of extra weight around the middle because Professor Tim Spector now is.

[873] explain to me that women metabolize sugar differently in midlife and estrogen and the way that that affects your digestive system and your gut changes in menopause.

[874] That's like fascinating.

[875] So many changes happen.

[876] And so I had night sweats.

[877] I had the mood things.

[878] But all of this, the brain fog was the thing that was really affecting my work.

[879] And I just thought I'm not even sure that I can continue.

[880] working but I did end up through a long process and it's all explained in the book but end up seeing a private doctor and I'm sad that I had to go to a private doctor but I seriously thought I was going mad and somebody flagged up maybe it is the perimenopause but I said I've been told by my GP I'm too young they said well maybe go and you know paying go see somebody so I did and they said immediately your perimenopausal I had I've got hyperthyroidism I've had that since I was 28 where my thyroid is underactive and apparently people who have hypothyroidism can start menopause early.

[881] I didn't know that.

[882] And they talked me through all the perceived risks and the benefits.

[883] I didn't know there are any benefits to taking HRT either.

[884] I thought it was only going to give me breast cancer.

[885] I thought it might take away my symptoms, which would be the only benefit, but actually there are health benefits to taking it.

[886] And I weighed it all up and I thought I'm definitely, definitely going to go on HRT.

[887] You can take it for the rest of your life.

[888] We get asked that a lot.

[889] You get asked like, does it postpone your menopause?

[890] It doesn't postpone your menopause.

[891] But if you stop taking it, you've wean yourself off.

[892] You can occasionally get an odd flush even after your periods have stopped.

[893] It's just the estrogen depletion in your body.

[894] If you keep taking the estrogen, you probably won't have the hot flushes.

[895] But some women have to stop because they do get breast cancer that's estrogen receptive.

[896] and then they are required.

[897] But I met somebody the other day who'd had breast cancer and she'd gone on HRT because she felt the quality of her life was so bad that she had sat down and weighed up.

[898] Look, if it comes back, how are we going to deal with it?

[899] What would I do?

[900] How many times do I get checked a year?

[901] She weighed that up herself.

[902] But it's a very personal decision.

[903] Someone would be like, I don't want to take that risk.

[904] I don't want to take the risk of getting cancer just to make myself feel better.

[905] But for her, she felt so bad that it was worth the risk.

[906] So it's a very personal journey for so many women.

[907] But it is a journey that when you know about it and you know what's happening to you is an easier journey to take.

[908] What about men?

[909] You talk about men in the book.

[910] Yeah, so they're like really important.

[911] I'm going to tell you a story about a guy the other day, he sent me a tweet, and he said, I got your book and I went to the living room door and I opened the living room door and I chucked in the book and I ran away and it made me laugh and I read it and I thought oh you know banter hilarious.

[912] Oh was he ran and then yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I'm terrified and then I thought actually do you know what I'm going to send you a direct message so I messaged him because he was following me so I messaged him privately I said are you okay and he went it's actually quite hard like I don't know what to do and I thought oh that was a bit of banter but actually you're struggling right so I was like hey listen I've got a great tip leave the banter at the door of the living room and why don't you go in and you can pick up the book and sit down and read it with her she'd absolutely love it I can't tell you how much it would mean to her if you said I don't know what to say or how to help you and I'm feeling tell her how you feel but in a non -comedy way like really tell her how you feel and then say what can I do to help can I read this book with you can we you know what can I do anyway the next day sent me in another message and he went oh my God I did it and it was so good and we read a bit of the book together and I feel much better informed and I don't feel like it's me because I think he thought it was him you know and being it's hard to explain when you're being a bitch that it's not their fault but that everything that they do makes you want to like run away or shout at them but it's not their fault how can that not feel like your fault when you've got somebody doing that to you and just knowing that it is a thing that happens and that there are things that you can do about it makes all the difference you know to a man so i think and to the woman you know for a man to then go oh i see it's like oh he gets it do you know what though there's um there's a fear i have about this because even in the case of him buying the book and then running in i know it was a joke running in there throwing it in there and closing the door as if it's a grenade or something there's a there's a fear as a man that if I was to approach my partner with the book it would be me saying there's something wrong with you yeah I mean see what I mean that is why um an honest and open conversation about how you're feeling not like you've been a bit moody recently I bought you this book to say look yeah like say if a man was listening to this and he thought that his partner was perimenopausal and they've maybe noticed three or four symptoms.

[913] By the book, read it.

[914] Or have a look at the symptoms.

[915] If you're worried about what they might think, hide it and read it.

[916] Look at the symptoms.

[917] Do a little mental checklist.

[918] I think you've got this, this and this.

[919] And then go, look, I've been feeling like this recently.

[920] I've been feeling like you don't love me anymore.

[921] And I really miss you.

[922] Say something nice.

[923] Say something about how you feel like we've grown apart a bit.

[924] and I want to bring it back and I've been thinking and I listened to some stuff and I heard something on the radio or you know how did you hear about this book so then you say well I was listening to the podcast driver CEO and I can subscribe and I like a subscribe and so I thought I'd buy the book and have a look at it and I think some of this is can I show you something can we sit down I'd really like to show it to you and if they get annoyed don't worry they might get annoyed and walk away and go I'm not perimenopausal and then come back and secretly read the book or they might come back and go I'm sorry I was annoyed but I think I am and then they might have a cry it can work out a million different ways but it just needs a bit of patience bit of understanding and no banter banter is like bad in several situations banter is bad around periods do not do banter about periods You can do banter about haircuts, clothing, loads of things, but banter about periods are not funny.

[925] Banta in childbirth, not funny.

[926] Unless wife has given you permission to bantz.

[927] Or unless she bants at you, then you can bant back.

[928] And banter during menopause.

[929] Unless she bans first.

[930] I always go, by the one.

[931] Because these are times of great vulnerability.

[932] And sometimes a bit of banter can really hurt.

[933] We used the word a mission earlier on.

[934] We used it in the context of once you decouple from the need for validation or to fill that whole, you can have a much more intrinsic internal mission to set your life in a new trajectory.

[935] What is your mission now?

[936] As you sit here, you said you're 55.

[937] What is your mission?

[938] I really like helping people.

[939] So I think that's a general mission.

[940] And if I can help in any way, like, what can I do to help you?

[941] I think I've got a platform.

[942] You've got a platform.

[943] You're helping people.

[944] You know, that's like, I feel like that's your mission to spread good using your platform.

[945] I guess like I've worked hard all my life to get a platform.

[946] Now I've got a platform, what am I going to do with it?

[947] Do I want to make more money or get more followers?

[948] Not really, I'm not really bothered.

[949] do I want to help people?

[950] Yeah.

[951] So everything is like, is this going to help anyone?

[952] Is this going to do any good?

[953] Even something as kind of, you know, lingerie, to me, is a superpower.

[954] Like, lingerie is one of the most important builders of self -confidence.

[955] When I was single, I used to wear badass lingerie because the first act of self -love is what are you going to put on underneath your clothes that's next to your skin that no one else is going to see, that only you know what you're wearing.

[956] You know, I see women who look absolutely amazing on the outside, but they're wearing grey, holy underwear.

[957] And it's an act of care.

[958] Self -care is looking nice only for you.

[959] It's an amazing act of love.

[960] So I want to help people feel good about themselves.

[961] I want to get the message out there.

[962] And I also, what do I want to do?

[963] Yeah, I just think that is my mission.

[964] I'm always thinking about jobs like, because of my sister was thinking about a TV program I'd love to do called Legacy because my sister was a beautiful person and I never think she felt it but my God her funeral was amazing and she was loved so much and I kept thinking why aren't you here oh my God you'd love this you had no idea how much you were loved what a huge impact you had on so many people's lives I thought wouldn't it be great to do a sort of this is your life type TV program where you bring all the people together but for somebody that is life limited somebody who has a year left and you do their funeral before they die have a have a living wake for them wow yeah it's like it's horrific but great at the same time and if you found somebody that was willing i would love that yeah i was thinking about it from a tv tvs perspective but wow what a range of emotions this is your legacy look all these people and getting the roses while you can still smell them yeah so that's kind that kind of thing like I can do a job and and do something lovely I mean I'm not sure if I would find anybody to get that off the ground because it's quite extreme but this is you're manifesting again yeah I've said it out loud on here someone might hear it you never know you are you're such a legend for so many reasons you have a real talent which I didn't realize until I'd really met you here having watched you on TV but there's just something really quite electric and wonderful about you but that's probably why you were so successful on TV in the public domain because there's this electricity to you I don't know if anyone's ever told you that before this real just like brilliant engaging electricity so it's been an incredible honour to meet you I've learnt so much I felt the full range of emotions your podcast is fantastic which you do with Michael making the cut yeah can I tell you something funny please on Apple podcast they michael my partner is called michael douglas and they've got a picture of actual michael douglas with me and i keep thinking katherine zita jones is going to come over and like let me go are you doing something with my husband i go no they've got the wrong picture up there i've written to apple so many times i've gone yeah i have i keep writing to apple podcast going mate please swap michael douglas's photo for my michael douglas i'm going to get into trouble with katherine okay but it's a fantastic podcast you sit there with your partner and you talk about life recommend things so we recommended in fact the specific episode and we were recommending your podcast in general but the specific one was the Jimmy Car one which was he was a great such an interesting mind blowing yeah yeah I saw that I think I'd DM'd you after yeah you did you did if it was straight after that no it was after that it was after you've done a story about it as well so thank you for that we all freaked out a little bit because you're such a legend international treasure that we were like, oh my God, Davina McCaw is listening.

[965] We need to step this up.

[966] It is, though.

[967] Moments like that is super surreal for me because, you know, I've watched you on screens and I've admired you for so long.

[968] So to hear that you were listening, it's like, oh my God, what did we say?

[969] You know, so thank you for that.

[970] You said good things, it's okay.

[971] And your book is amazing.

[972] Thank you.

[973] We were talking before you, we started about how the way you've designed this book, from the colors to the cover to the structure of every.

[974] page and how engaging and unintimidating it is and accessible it feels is also intentional.

[975] You've done it all for a reason.

[976] I want it easy to read.

[977] I was just saying earlier about the hands on the front.

[978] I wanted those two hands at the bottom to look like I'm going to help you out of this and we're going to do it together and that the messaging is positive because I think people I had viewed the menopause as an incredibly negative thing in my 30s and 40s.

[979] And actually it's been a time where you're at.

[980] actually talking to me here and asking me how I feel and I'm saying happy.

[981] Yeah.

[982] I mean, you know, this is what menopauseing has done for me. I feel so happy.

[983] So I wanted to kind of convey that in some way and make it a book that when you are feeling diminished and invisible, that you can pick it up and it's easy to read and you will see yourself in every page.

[984] When I do this podcast sometimes, I have moments where I'm so grateful to get to do this because because I meet these amazing people.

[985] But then I learn about things that I like, it's like I'm in a hall and I thought the room was fully illuminated.

[986] And then I have a conversation about menopause and then another light goes on that I didn't even know, you know, and it's like the room has just got bigger because someone has turned a light on for me. And learning about menopause over the last, from you, from this book, over the last from what Gabby said and the influence you've had on Gabby, it's maybe you're a fucking else.

[987] So many things make sense now.

[988] I mean, well, my mum had a medical history rectomy at 28 and would have been plunged into the menopause and didn't get HRT.

[989] So imagine what impact that had on her and her behaviour and her actions.

[990] You know, I've forgiven my mum a little bit for some, I mean, not all of it, but I've let go of it, but it's explained some of it.

[991] I actually did want to talk to you about that situation of forgiveness with your mother because many people can relate to having someone in your life that you fight to change.

[992] You try your best and, you know, because they're your mum.

[993] And at some point, sometimes we have to say, listen, we've done more than we can possibly do to the point that we're actually hurting ourselves now.

[994] And we have to kind of cut ties as a bit of a drastic way of saying it, but we have to kind of start protecting ourselves.

[995] Did that happen in your situation at some point?

[996] so with my mum um she'd she was an alcoholic i then got into recovery and then came the thing of how long do i go along with my mum being an alcoholic without saying you're an alcoholic and you need to do something about it because it's getting really bad and after a few years of being in recovery talking to my sponsor going to meeting sharing about it i thought i'm going to confront her about it and i said you're an alcoholic you need to do something about it and then she got really fucking angry with me and she didn't do anything about it and I saw her another couple of times she was stationed abroad with her, she'd married somebody that worked at an embassy she could move around and eventually I just said look I can't see you until you get sober and a couple of years later she went to live in South Africa with her husband and she got sober and I invited her to my wedding to Matthew and she came and she was sober and we went to an NAA meeting together and we held hands and we shared and then Matthew and I went on honeymoon and we went to Paris afterwards saw my mum again it was kind of like amazing like it was kind of as I had hoped it would always be it was like a miracle and then six months later on my birthday on the 16th of October just in case you want to send me a card next year on the 16th of October I'm away in Edinburgh and the paper comes upstairs and it says mommy I need a meeting on the front page of the mirror and I'd never spoken about going to NA because it was an anonymous fellowship and the point of being an anonymous fellowship is that nobody knows you go.

[997] And she had sold a story to the papers about us going to that meeting and the papers had twisted it so that it was like I was about to relapse before my wedding and that she'd taken me to this meeting and, you know, sort of saved me. It was like that kind of tone.

[998] And then inside, because I'm like you, you know, I've never printed pictures of my, children ever.

[999] I've never even posted a picture of them on Facebook, not even on my private Facebook page ever.

[1000] There's never been a picture of my kids anywhere.

[1001] Now my kids are 19 and 21, the older ones they can choose, I will never post a picture of Chester online.

[1002] There's pictures of our honeymoon.

[1003] Like I hadn't, I wasn't posting.

[1004] I wouldn't, I mean, Instagram wasn't around, but there was, she, in the newspapers of us, like, together with her, I was like somebody He'd taken my heart and grabbed it and ripped it out.

[1005] And I felt the shutters coming down.

[1006] I thought, I trusted you.

[1007] And I was, you know, I'd let you back into my life.

[1008] And I'm going to put the fucking shutters down because you're not going to get fucking again.

[1009] And I called her up and I was like, what are you doing?

[1010] She said, oh, it was a celebratory thing, you know, that we'd gone to this meeting together.

[1011] I said, nobody knew I was in the fellowship.

[1012] I said, you go to the fellowship.

[1013] You know it's an anonymous fellowship.

[1014] It's not like you're new to it.

[1015] You've been clean for a year.

[1016] Like, what are you doing?

[1017] I was so upset.

[1018] And my sister, who had always felt a bit invisible, was not mentioned in the article once.

[1019] And my mum hadn't said, I've got another daughter, or my daughter lives with, you know, DeVina and Caroline live together or nothing.

[1020] She said nothing about her.

[1021] Like she was invisible.

[1022] It hurt her so much.

[1023] She never spoke to my mum again, ever.

[1024] From that moment.

[1025] She was going to go over and see her in South Africa.

[1026] they had a plane ticket books and everything and then she realized she'd probably bought the ticket with the money that she got because my mum didn't have any money I was giving her money for medicines and things like that she just was they didn't have much money and then I carried on giving them the money because I thought who do I want to be when I die or when she dies I want to have been the person that I respect so I thought I'm not going to pull the money and not give her meds so I kept giving her the money And then every now and again she'd kind of reach back in I'd think, oh my God, this is different than she'd do something else so another story would come out or every time I kind of reached out another story would come out and in the end I found out she was dying of cancer in South Africa and I lay in bed in England one night and Matthew was asleep and I put my hands out on top of the bed with my palms facing upwards and I closed my eyes and I imagine shoots of light of forgiveness coming out of the palms of my hand going across the world to South Africa to Pretoria where she lived and straight into her heart in the hospital and I just kept saying I forgive you for everything I just totally fucking forgive you I don't care anymore forgive you go and like be go in peace and then me, my sister and my husband and our kids all went away for a wedding in America and my sister and I got the news when we were together that she'd gone and I looked at her and I said she's gone and she was like, wow and then we both had a little cry and then Caroline looked at me and she went I feel relieved and I said she went I don't know and I said God it's it's please don't let and I said to her quietly then please don't let me be a person that dies and anybody ever feels relieved about don't let me ever live that life and Caroline said me either and Caroline definitely didn't we were fucking broken when she died so she she achieved that and I hope that when I go I don't ever like leave anybody feeling happy that I've gone gosh well I'm not happy but but when she's She died, she freed me up to remember funny times as well as all the...

[1027] When she was alive, I could only remember the bad and what I was missing.

[1028] And when she died, you know, I was able to remember her being hilarious and arresting people drunk as a citizen's arrest or things that were just funny.

[1029] Did you go to her funeral?

[1030] No. And again, will I regret it?

[1031] No. we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest and the question left for you very good handwriting um is what makes you most angry about society council culture oh have you been on the receiving end of it yeah when um I wrote a tweet about Sarah Everard's death when it was getting really nasty online about men and I said that abduction and death from abduction is very rare and we don't need to completely panic about that situation I wasn't talking about any other kind of things that happened to women I wasn't talking about domestic abuse or any of the other awful things that happened to women I was just talking about abduction and death from that it is rare and we just have to not start blaming all men because, and I was thinking about my son, my son was really cut up about it and he didn't know how to behave.

[1032] He felt like the enemy suddenly and I was trying to explain to him that he wasn't, I said, you know, we've got brothers and husbands and kids that are worried and what they want to help, let's not demonise all men.

[1033] My God.

[1034] Like I got 200 ,000 likes but I didn't see any of those I just saw the 10 ,000 comments asking for me to be murdered or burned at the stake or I'm a woman hater or I'm a hashtag not all men person and you know I don't understand about domestic violence they don't know anything about my life you know I've like I've lived a life and I've experienced a lot of really terrible things and many terrible things have happened to me but I just didn't feel that this was the moment to attack all men because in life I have discovered that we need to come at life together, men and women, segregating everybody into groups, separate groups, separatist groups.

[1035] I don't, I think it's anti -society.

[1036] We need to all work together and alienating people and entire sex is not a good idea.

[1037] You know, like we need, you need to have our back and we need to have your back.

[1038] I know lots of men that really changed their behavior after hearing about how frightened women are in the streets and, you know, like if they're walking towards a woman, just go, it's okay, or cross over the road to walk on the other side and maybe they didn't do that before.

[1039] That's a good thing.

[1040] Like we need to commend that rather than, well, you know, if we weren't frightened of you in the first place, you wouldn't have to do that as you guys.

[1041] You know, I just think there's got to be a more open conversation.

[1042] And anyway, council culture.

[1043] So that's only happened to me once.

[1044] I didn't take it down.

[1045] I went to bed for a weekend.

[1046] And I was ashamed and frightened to go to go shopping in my local supermarket.

[1047] I didn't want to go out in town because I felt like everybody'd read it and hated me. And then I read quite a few articles afterwards where they were saying, no, completely understand where she was coming from.

[1048] She was right.

[1049] And I was thinking, oh, oh, right.

[1050] and so I kept the comment up there because I do stand by it but I wish that I think my big mistake and the thing that I should apologise for is that I posted it three days after four days after she died and it was timing my timing was shit and it was way too soon and I did again out of something that was really bad a bad experience for me I did learn something from it and I won't do that again but I don't I think counselling somebody doesn't let somebody learn something and ruining someone's life, which happens a lot, somebody's whole career gets finished.

[1051] You're never letting them learn the lesson.

[1052] You've got to let them learn the lesson, come back and give them the space to say, I could have done it differently, and I've learned something.

[1053] Yeah.

[1054] So I think it's a sad thing that.

[1055] And also it means that often in the public domain, I won't say something that I think or believe in because I'm really frightened I'm going to get cancelled for it and it might be something quite mundane or small or topic but I think we'll best avoid that.

[1056] I don't know how we change that.

[1057] There is some people in our society who just don't give a fuck.

[1058] You change that by stopping social media because for the 10 ,000 people that are verbalising how much they hate it, 200 ,000 liked it.

[1059] So they agree.

[1060] But you only, here and there'll be a lot of people who couldn't even like it touch it yeah because of the fear of like because of the fear of getting cancelled that happens a lot none of us are saying yeah what we think or believe in or questioning something you know it's terrible when you can't question or why are you doing that like is that a good idea i mean when we stop this podcast i'm going to talk to you about a couple of things that happening at the moment which i think are interesting but i can't i can't i can't form an opinion about it because i can't talk about it anywhere need to, like, I need to find somebody I can actually air it with, you know.

[1061] It'll get clipped and then it goes viral in it.

[1062] Yeah.

[1063] It's terrifying, isn't it?

[1064] It's crazy because we, progress comes from that debate, the conversation, the questioning.

[1065] All of our progress in society has come from that, a conversation, brave conversations with ideas that at their time were maybe denied or not believed in.

[1066] But because of conversation and progress, because of the fearless nature of some people in our society, whether it's Martin Luther King or, you know, the suffragettes, whatever, things changed.

[1067] And we, we can't do that anymore.

[1068] with the nature of the world.

[1069] So how are things going to change?

[1070] There are some amongst us, the brave ones, who seemingly don't give a fuck.

[1071] And they are taking all the arrows as they go up the hill.

[1072] And we've got to like...

[1073] Yeah, it makes you ask questions about yourself.

[1074] But there are.

[1075] You can think of those people.

[1076] I'm just wondering, like, at what point, at what age am I got?

[1077] Because I've got a feeling I'm going to get to an age or I'm going to go, fuck it out.

[1078] I feel like J .K. Rowling.

[1079] just kind of went for it at one point.

[1080] Yeah, but I feel like that is another story altogether.

[1081] I was just about to enter into it.

[1082] I thought, nope.

[1083] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1084] Don't want to get cancelled.

[1085] Yeah, okay.

[1086] Well, we'll finish there.

[1087] I want to thank you so much again.

[1088] It's a real honour to meet you and have a conversation with you.

[1089] And I hope we do this again sometime because I feel like we've got so much more to talk about.

[1090] Yeah, God, me too.

[1091] Well, we won't be cancelled.

[1092] Thanks for having me. I've really enjoyed it.

[1093] And thanks for letting me into a bit of your life as well.

[1094] It's been nice.

[1095] Oh, not at all.

[1096] It's been a huge honour.

[1097] And I've really, it's been a rare enriching.

[1098] conversation because of your energy but also because of your wisdom so thank you oh