Grace Beverley: How To Build A Multi-Million Pound Empire At 24

[0] One of the reasons I stepped back from social media was because, like, if something can manifest so physically that you're having a fucking seizure, then you probably need to take this more seriously.

[1] And that was, you know, like, that was, that was tough.

[2] And that for me is my happiness.

[3] Grace Beverley, CEO founder of two multi -million dollar companies.

[4] One's a fashion empire that's focused on sustainability and one's a fitness empire comprising a mobile app, a supplements business and gym equipment.

[5] She did all of that while studying and graduating from Oxford University, while growing her online channels to millions and millions of followers, while writing a book, and while dealing with all of the things that every other Gen Z person has to deal with at the age of 23.

[6] 23.

[7] And on the surface, it's easy to understand while looking in, someone might love to have Grace's life.

[8] But as you start to peel back the layers as we do in this conversation, you begin to understand her obsessive attention to detail, the weight of her workload, and the personal cost of her accomplishments.

[9] And you see the impact that those things have had on all parts of her life.

[10] And it makes you reconsider.

[11] Despite all of this, she's persisted.

[12] She stayed true to her values.

[13] She's doubled down on the things she loves the most, and she's cut out some of the things that no longer serve her.

[14] She's learned.

[15] She's learned lessons that most of us would take a lifetime to learn.

[16] And she's 23.

[17] It blows my mind.

[18] Without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is the driver's CEO.

[19] I hope nobody's listening.

[20] But if you are, then please.

[21] keep this to yourself.

[22] Grace, I started my business at 18 years old as well.

[23] You faced a different set of challenges.

[24] Not only have you started your business at an incredibly young age, or at least you got into business at incredibly young age, you face a set of challenges that are even alien to me in the sense that you are a woman in business.

[25] You are taking on various industries that don't want to be taken on, and that really are sort of incumbent monopolies in the space of fast fashion, and fitness and those things.

[26] I guess my first question is why did you choose business?

[27] And what gave you the confidence to pursue a career that's filled with so much uncertainty at such a young age?

[28] I think people often assume that the first part of it always has to be a kind of, I'm going to start this, I'm going to do this.

[29] And I think that mine absolutely wasn't that at all.

[30] And I think that that's what often makes me kind of question, you know, the amount of things that have had to fall into place for this to happen.

[31] And of course, you know, there's hard work in that, but there's also so many other things that have had to go right.

[32] So for me, you know, as I kind of said when I was 18 and working, doing an internship at IBM, that's kind of when I started and I just started doing some, I essentially started monetizing something that should be monetized.

[33] So it was content I was giving away for free and then I was going to do lots more of that and so I decided to monetize it via an e -book.

[34] And then, you know, the next year, I did more of that.

[35] And then that's, you know, then it started picking up momentum.

[36] I started doing different products.

[37] And I think that that's, I guess, often not seen in the way that businesses represented.

[38] It's kind of seen as like a eureka moment.

[39] Then you go and do it.

[40] Then you put it into action.

[41] Then you fail once or twice and then you get it.

[42] And it was far more gradual than that.

[43] And I think that probably over the past, you know, so it's probably been, so it's been five years since that moment, I'd say four years since the business, it's shreddy that it is now, has, I guess, was founded.

[44] And in that time, probably the first two years were incredibly gradual, very much a kind of residual extra income, rather than kind of this big, like, these are my goals, this is going to happen within this time.

[45] So I guess in that it's been a gradual process, I think the confidence has gathered through that.

[46] And a lot of the time I haven't been confident enough to do that, but have, I guess, just done it anyway.

[47] So, you know, when I was, when I did kind of my second set of e -books, which was in my first year at university, that was literally because my student loan didn't come through.

[48] Like, that was the only reason.

[49] So as in, I don't think it was necessarily a confidence thing.

[50] I think it was more, okay, like, what are we going to do in that situation?

[51] And then putting that together and then being able to, you know, leverage a platform to be able to monetize that so and then from then onwards obviously it's been very mindful it's been very kind of strategic and that's how it's happened but I guess I guess the answer is that the confidence hasn't always been there and it hasn't always been a kind of I'm going to take on this industry sure starting Tala that that was but but the rest of it a lot of it has been gradual a lot of it has been this kind of more just a cumulative making one decision at a time, which is, I guess, what I kind of try and show as well so that people could know that it doesn't always need to be this one big decision and this one big business that's going to be the biggest business in the world.

[52] It can just be something you're just doing in that moment.

[53] The world has changed recently over the last 12 months because of the pandemic and a lot of people have lost their jobs.

[54] And so freelance websites and entrepreneurship has now become more in focus as people are trying to find ways to give themselves a little bit more stability in their income.

[55] And when I speak to my friends that are, you know, your age, 23 years old, right, 24 next week, the week after, sorry, or who are younger 18, 19, or even older, everybody seems to have a business idea.

[56] And I'm sure you're bombarded with DMs like this, right?

[57] Everyone has a business idea.

[58] There seems to be this barrier between the idea and taking the first step, like making the Instagram page.

[59] And is the barrier between that, is it confident?

[60] in your view, what is it?

[61] I think it's probably specific to the situation, the person, the circumstance.

[62] So, you know, I was when I was at university, if, you know, I think that there was something that came together to make me do that, but I was also at university in a place and in a time that I could take, I guess, a risky decision in terms of how I spend my time in terms of what I'm putting together.

[63] I guess I wasn't doing a part -time job.

[64] at the time that I could have put into that.

[65] And so, you know, part of it is circumstance in the way that people, a lot of people don't necessarily have the backing to put behind it or it might be the time they can put into it.

[66] You know, lots of people are working through jobs just to make ends meet.

[67] And therefore, you know, you might have an idea, but actually being able to sacrifice the time spent doing that isn't an option.

[68] And I think, but then I think a lot of the time as well, I think it can be confidence out of that circumstance.

[69] It can be, or out of that.

[70] of that circumstance.

[71] It can be, you know, should I be doing this?

[72] Why should I be doing this?

[73] And I think that a lot of the ideas that I've had, you know, I'm sure you'll have the same.

[74] Like, there'll be ideas that you have kind of the whole time and it's choosing the right ones and it's choosing and it's being able to test it.

[75] I think, I'm sure if I tested out my first, I guess, what has turned into shreddy now, if I tested that out, you know, even more gradually or if it hadn't worked or whatever, I don't know how tenacious I would have been in terms of actually making that happen.

[76] And as I say, it's been like an accumulation of that confidence and actually testing things, realising their work and then replicating that.

[77] So I think, I mean, I think we can't necessarily blanket apply it to everyone and be like, it's because of this, it's because of this.

[78] But I think that, you know, probably the biggest, the biggest factors will be circumstance, confidence.

[79] And yeah, I guess there are so many things that can stop you, but there are also so many things that can enable you to say, okay, well, this is this is this.

[80] I'm going to make it happen or I'm going to take that leap or I'm going to at least do the background work or do a survey to see if my product would be liked or whatever it might be.

[81] I think as well, people looking at you or myself that have achieved things in business will see this very polished product, right?

[82] And they'll think, well, I'm so far from that.

[83] So I'm so far from being capable what that person has achieved.

[84] But as you've described that, which I think is so powerful and important, for you it was taking one step up a very very thousand stair staircase at a time and and as you say when we look at you now one step 934 we think oh my god like you know you must you probably get this comment a lot right she's like you must be so proud of yourself yeah which is like well it's been one step at a time so yeah and and i think you can be proud of the steps along the way but i also think that i look back at some not necessarily some products but you know some branding some content some all of that and i look at it and i'm like and it was crap like that is awful like as in i i would scroll right past that or i wouldn't you know and of course things have changed people's like taste have changed and all of that that kind of goes into branding and product and all of that but there was something you know i've sold everything from you know like t -shirts to notebooks to like whatever it would be it's not what the everything that's accumulated now is the good things that have then been replicated it's not everything gets kind of replicated and then you know you see all of the end products there have been some things that never ended up as an end product because there was so shit in the first place that they were never you know they didn't deserve that extra time on them so I think you're completely right there is this kind of and I think it's also perpetuated by you know unknowingly often by people like ourselves so you know like I think I look at the stuff I share and I look at it and I'm like God I'm so much more likely to share if it's this or you know if this product worked out well and subconsciously because there was an end of that journey, we don't necessarily say like, oh, this was the thing that actually went really wrong because, you know, it's embarrassing.

[85] Like, you don't want to share that.

[86] You don't, or you don't kind of think to because you don't think of the kind of like pride and the journey that's got to that point.

[87] And so I guess it all does, you know, you will just see the good things or you might see the bad things that are positioned in an inspirational way, but it's still curated.

[88] It's still what I guess is one.

[89] to be seen.

[90] And to my other point about being a woman in business, that comes with a whole unique set of challenges.

[91] You know, I've heard you talk about being underestimated, not taking seriously before.

[92] Speak to me about some of those challenges that I wouldn't even, you know, know, know, know about.

[93] So I think first, I always also think it is important to preface this with the fact that, yes, I'm a woman in business.

[94] I'm also white, able -bodied.

[95] I was privately educated.

[96] I went to Oxford, a kind of huge list of things that need to be, I guess, contextualized, which I've always thought is important.

[97] And I think that it's, you know, I won't face half the challenges that a black woman would face in the same position.

[98] I think the challenges I do face are, you know, they are kind of often and they have to be, they have to be worked through, I guess.

[99] and that's been, you know, a journey.

[100] There have been, you know, people who have wanted to work for the businesses who clearly won't accept the fact that, you know, this, I'm not the face of it, like I am acting CEO and, you know, I do do X, Y and Z. And there have also been, you know, it's been the same with partnerships.

[101] It's been the same with, you know, I think people, people have a certain perception that's definitely warped and increased and perpetuated by online presence.

[102] and the fact that I don't just share my work.

[103] And I think that, you know, it does come down to, it does come down to these preconceptions.

[104] And I know as well, since I've started realizing this, I have preconceptions as well, you know, we'll say, like, about a woman who's high up who you hear about and you're like, oh, God, they're doing really well.

[105] Like, why don't I have that?

[106] And I think, you know, I often think, like, oh, well, you know, apparently they're really hard to work with or they're like, whatever.

[107] And we all have these own kind of like, own like internalized sexist whatever it might be preconceptions in terms of these things as well and I think that it often comes for women who are successful you look at them you either think you probably think one of two things you either think or maybe one of three things you think wow amazing must be superwoman or you think wow amazing but like oh I've never seen a partner or like children like do you think they're happy in their personal lives or you think wow but they're of like either they haven't actually done it.

[108] They've just been put at the front of it or they're like a bitch or really, you know, really bitchy or like a tyrant or whatever it is.

[109] And like that is and I think that when I look at that, I'm like, actually, that's probably the way I see some people, you know, that's probably the way that is in some ways for, you know, for for me and my conceptions.

[110] And I think that it's, it's just, it's, it's what it's become and it's actually obviously got better in some ways.

[111] You know, it's got hugely better since it's probably like the 1950s and whatever, but there's still a long way to go in that respect.

[112] When I knew that we were going to be having this conversation, I looked into the general sentiment around your brand and you've got a huge, hugely engaged, wonderful community of people.

[113] You've got this, you know, this true, like I'd call it a fan base or supporters that understand you and they get you, probably because they followed you for a long time and they followed your vlogs and they like know who you are, right?

[114] And then as is the case with pretty much every successful person I've seen, there's also the antithesis of that.

[115] There's the opposite.

[116] There's people who, as you said, will try and highlight reasons why you maybe don't deserve to be where you are.

[117] You don't deserve credit.

[118] This is something that most of the guests I've sat with have faced to some degree.

[119] It's not easy to take, right?

[120] Because I know, right, I come from a slightly different background, but I know that irrespective of background, you have to work hard.

[121] really really fucking hard be honest with me how does that feel i think that i think it's an important discussion to have first and foremost i think that and i think i'll be the first to say that and i think a lot of you know i spend a lot of time in the book for example contextualizing success because i think it's very important especially when you know you're presented three people on your instagram feed with in the same square and one of them's your mate from school, one of them's like your mom and one of them's Beyonce.

[122] And it's kind of like this democratization of the news feed that makes everything look the same and you don't see the teams.

[123] You don't see the privilege.

[124] You don't see all of the above.

[125] And I think that it's a very important conversation to have.

[126] So to be perfectly honest, I'd be rather people have that conversation and maybe write off my success based on that.

[127] I think that I think also aside from that, I do think that, you know, a lot of the people who, the people who do follow me and have followed me for a long time.

[128] know my work ethic and they know that I work hard and they know that, you know, often that's been an unhealthy amount, you know, I use work as a coping mechanism.

[129] So it's been through the worst times of my life, that's what I know I can do and that's what I throw myself into.

[130] And I think that I'd rather that conversation be had and me be able to know in myself why I've been successful and how I've worked.

[131] And I think that that that's, you know, I guess first and foremost, that's important and that's how I'm able to I guess push through and be able to do what I do is because I know why it is I also know that there have been things that have helped me and then you know I guess that doesn't matter I guess the important thing is that we're able to have the conversations and able to like I'm able to know as well in myself I know that's a very mature position to take I've got to be honest it's a very mature position to take but I I'm skeptical as to whether it's always been as easy to take as that.

[132] And you've, you know, so talk to me about the process.

[133] Yeah.

[134] I mean, I think that any justified criticism, or, you know, it might be justified, it might be unjustified.

[135] Criticism is hard to take.

[136] I don't, I think you can have a mature standpoint towards something and equally, you're still going to feel like a punch in the stomach.

[137] Of course.

[138] And that's, and that's fine.

[139] And I think that one of the things that I wouldn't wish, you know, when I think for my children that I wouldn't necessarily want them to be in is I wouldn't want them to be in a higher profile position when they're younger.

[140] And because, you know, I talk about, I have this whole chapter in the book, which is essentially a, I guess probably like the most honest I've been in the long time because it's, you know, as I've said, it's a, there's no instant feedback loop.

[141] There's, I can write this and not hear back from it for, you know, like a year.

[142] And it's me talking about how actually, essentially, I feel like a lot of I became known at a time where my self -confidence was, at its worst, and therefore I was able to, I guess, rather than filling that lack of confidence with confidence and self -worth, I filled it with validation.

[143] And therefore, when I decided to take a step back from social media, because I decided that wasn't what I wanted to do kind of first and foremost is my job, that kind of bandage was ripped off because it didn't exist.

[144] And that's when I realized that, you know, these things are the things that we need to be able to deal with and we need to be able to, I guess, cobble together to be able to, you know, no matter whether this person thinks X, Y, and Z about yourself, how much does that matter?

[145] If it does matter and if you do think it's wrong, are you going to do something about it?

[146] And can you still get on with your day, essentially?

[147] And I think that there are people who are amazing who I see on social media who I wouldn't give a single criticism to that I can think of, that I'm sure get the exact same thing.

[148] And there are people who have been to hell and back and get the exact same thing.

[149] And there are people who actually have done, you know, have locked out.

[150] get the exact same thing.

[151] And in the grand scheme of things, I don't think it necessarily matters.

[152] I think what matters is that you know in yourself and you also know that if there's something that you need to change, you can change that.

[153] Like if you want to, if I guess sometimes when something like other things, you know, like hit a nerve or whatever, like do you need to change that?

[154] Do you need to address that?

[155] Do you need to do better?

[156] So I think that that's kind of how I tackle it.

[157] But of course, no, there's not like a something in me where I, you know, get a message that says, you look ugly.

[158] thank you like that's not like that doesn't happen like that's not an initial reaction but I think that you have to be you have to be rational when we're not designed to be taking this much feedback and criticism or even if it's not criticism if someone like I say the whole time oh I don't like that colour I don't like clothing or like whatever it might be to the designer that might like rip them to shreds or whatever it's not mean it's an opinion and we're not designed to be able to take that in So I think that there has to be a sort of rationalisation on a human part or on your, like, if you are in that position, you have a duty to yourself to learn how to deal with that or to remove yourself in the situation.

[159] Otherwise, it's just untenable, I guess.

[160] You've got, you know, two businesses, two key businesses.

[161] And when you run a business, when you're young, irrespective of age, you undergo a couple of things.

[162] Real like unexpected chaos at any given moment.

[163] Then also a tremendous amount of sacrifice.

[164] I actually want to start on the sacrifice piece.

[165] I don't think people, as you said earlier, get to fully see the full picture of sacrifice and cost, both personal and professional and whatever.

[166] So talk to me about some of the sacrifice that even you didn't expect before you got into business and before your business grew.

[167] I think that at the same time as I kind of benefited hugely from the, you know, having money at university, for example, I also went to university expecting one thing.

[168] and then actually spent it essentially getting up at X hour working on university stuff because I never ever ever wanted to give them an excuse to think that I wasn't concentrating fully on my university and then working all the way essentially way into the night to get the other stuff done and I also you know that comes with being high profile that comes with all of these things so I guess one of those things was very much like there was the time and the life experience and all of that, that because things took off quickly at one stage, even if it wasn't like, it wasn't that the businesses took off, you know, the businesses have done much more over the past year and a half or whatever when I haven't been at uni.

[169] But at that point, you know, the high -profileness, all of that, that came with, I guess, different to what I was expecting.

[170] And, or not what I was expecting, I wasn't expecting it at all.

[171] And therefore, there was kind of, I guess, you know, something that I really did want.

[172] for myself i didn't get but i also got um you know a lot more in another way what did you want for yourself well i just wanted the university experience really and i think that i was so once this took off i i'm a very determined person and i get i get a vision and i'll work for it day and night and i think that i actually got to i think in that instance you it's kind of like a fork in the road and you decide okay well i'm taking this one and i'm going to concentrate on this i'm going to businesses and all of that and then I think as well I saw the deadline for that as my end of university because if I had to if it wasn't as big as I wanted it to be by that time or if it wasn't you know whatever it might be I was going to choose I was going to go into a normal career and I think that so I was so dedicated to make that happen rather than you know I wanted to grow up too quickly essentially I'm 23 like I you know I'm and I think that a lot of that has been, I guess, in terms of people's, whether when it's people who meet you, their kind of perception of you or whatever it might be.

[173] And so I think that was something where it was a choice I'd make again and again, but it was, I guess, the sacrifice that I wasn't expecting to make.

[174] And I guess that comes with everything that comes with, you know, relationships, with friends, with time in general, with, you know, time to yourself, time to whatever.

[175] I think having a business in a way, and I'm sure some people will disagree, but I'm having a business in a way is like having a baby and you can't just you can't just like up and do whatever you can't you can't say no when a crisis comes in at 1 a .m you can't like that is what it is you get all the other benefits with those conditions and so I think that you know that's kind of a constant one like you can't you can't say oh I'm going to quit this and go and do this for two years because especially when you've got X amount of people working for you've got all of their salaries you've got all of their pensions you've got you know like it's it's a huge responsibility and the buck stops with you right yeah and and and that's you know it's it's it's an important one do you sometimes i reflect on uh the business journey and just how like obsessive it is and all consuming it is and i think it's a bit of a disease i'm like why did i choose this to like consume it's almost like masochistic yeah it is like obviously it's got the most amazing benefits but it is also like i remember what i remember my friend I can't remember, I think I really, we'd agreed to, just, just lockdown things.

[176] We'd agreed to watch a movie on a Sunday night.

[177] And then the thing came up and I was just like, you know what?

[178] I'm going to, like, I'm going to do this.

[179] I'm just going to work harder.

[180] So it's just going to be easier for this week.

[181] And it was like, tiny sacrifice.

[182] And my housemate turned around for me and she was like, what is the point of were you working this hard for this many years if you can't watch a movie on the Sunday night?

[183] And I was like, yeah, fair.

[184] Like, as in like, you're not wrong.

[185] Like, I'm still going to do it.

[186] But, like, you know, you're not wrong.

[187] Like, it's...

[188] What is the answer to that question, though?

[189] So, say, because I've muddled over this as well, if I'm working obsessively every day, at what point is enough?

[190] Yeah.

[191] Well, I think that it all comes with what you want.

[192] And I think that, you know, I've listened to you before and I've listened to you kind of saying that, you know, there came a point that you realized that it wasn't about money.

[193] So, like, what was it about?

[194] And I think for me, there's the kind of aspect of...

[195] It's for the businesses.

[196] And I have these really clear dreams for the money.

[197] the businesses that result in dreams for me as well, sure.

[198] But I think that that is, I think I'll come to a, you know, if I decide to sell a business or whatever, I'll come to that road there where I'm like, okay, what is it for now?

[199] And I think that knowing myself anyway, I know pre -business, post -business, I am like that.

[200] So whether it's this or whether it's something else or, you know, and I hope I can channel that into something else at some point that doesn't really.

[201] require every inch of your being.

[202] I know I'm like that.

[203] So it's kind of like, yeah, sure, it might be for nothing, but it's, I'm going to do it anyway.

[204] Like, there doesn't need to be reasoning behind the fact that this is how I am.

[205] I have always been, I've always been, yeah, I've always been like this.

[206] I've always been kind of like, I'm going to make this happen, like, whether that's kind of through like coordinating all the babysitting jobs that you got in one night and allocating them out to your friends and stuff.

[207] Or, you know, like taking, essentially like any job ever that like that I could then you know that's all that's what I'm like so I kind of know that what did that come from though I I think probably a few things I know that everyone in my family is a very hard worker and that is very it's kind of almost like an like an anxiety to do well even though like my parents parents were not pushy at all.

[208] I think people assume, you know, especially if you go to Oxford or like whatever, but the least pushy people ever, I think that actually it all, I kind of was discussing this with my sister the other day.

[209] I was like, where does it come from?

[210] It doesn't come from our parents.

[211] Like it comes from them clearly because they had it in themselves.

[212] But, you know, like they, both my parents had careers when I was growing up.

[213] I lived with my mom, just me, my mom, and we had a tenant who lived in my mom's house, and my mom was working pretty much all the time, incredibly.

[214] Like, I respect her so much for it because I also never grew up thinking, like, oh, it's weird for a woman to have a career and have four children and, like, whatever.

[215] She just, you know, she worked all the time.

[216] And she loved it.

[217] She loved it.

[218] And she gave her, like, everything to it.

[219] And so I think I spent a lot of, I spent a lot of time kind of in that situation knowing that I also wanted to love what I do.

[220] And I think there is this misled, like perception that, you know, like, if you love what you do, you'll love a work a day in your life, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[221] But I also think that there is this, like, it's a flow state, isn't it?

[222] Like you have something that matches your challenge and your skill level and you get more fulfillment than you'll get from anything.

[223] And I think I was so, I used to say, I remember saying, like, I think it was like when I was like 15, 16, and I would take like work experience from anyone every single holiday and every single school holiday.

[224] And I remember my teacher saying, like, you should probably choose one of the avenues and then you can do like more within that or something.

[225] And I remember just saying to them like, I'm so terrified that I'll be stuck in something that I hate.

[226] And it was like a constant like, and I don't think it's necessarily good.

[227] I don't think it was necessarily healthy.

[228] I was constantly so terrified that, you know, the same was for university.

[229] The same was for whatever.

[230] Like, I didn't get into Oxford the first time.

[231] I applied.

[232] I, and I went again.

[233] Like, I literally, that same day, I went online and I found out what I could do for a year that would earn myself some money to be able to not be, I guess, studying that year and went to and applied for the IBM Future Scheme, which is the one they do for gap year students, that literal same day.

[234] and then applied again the next year and like as in I was I'm very like that it's very set on kind of one thing and if that thing then doesn't work I either want to do it again like it's really clear to me I either want to do it again or I'm like that wasn't right and then I move on but I know that I'm very straight out and very like I will not stop until like I get right what's the going back to the business and the chaos and the second Is there one day in your business career over the last couple of years, which was your worst day?

[235] I mean...

[236] Or your toughest challenge?

[237] I think my toughest challenge in general was there was this stupid, stupid time that I'm constantly praised for, that was the worst decision I've ever made in my life, which was that I was coming up to my university finals.

[238] I was launching a business to, I think it was a month before my university finals.

[239] Yeah, I was launching a business at the beginning of May. the 7th May, if I might, and I started, I finished my finals on the 6th of June.

[240] Now that meant that 40 ,000 words were due and five, three -hour exams within the space of two weeks.

[241] And I also wanted to launch my business and I also wanted to do well at university.

[242] I'd been working with that for three years.

[243] But I'd persuaded people as well.

[244] I'd persuaded people to spend money on this launch.

[245] I'd persuaded people to, you know, so I was going to do it right.

[246] People were like, you're amazing.

[247] Like, this is so great, like, how can you do this?

[248] And I'm like, you were, like, it's not wise.

[249] It's not smart.

[250] Like, it's not, like, this isn't a competition for how many boxes you can take within a small space of time.

[251] That is like a fast track towards burnout and either something going incredibly wrong or whatever.

[252] And I think that that, you know, like, as I've said, work was always a coping mechanism for me. So it's always kind of like, well, if we have to do it now, or we like run out of money before launch and we're doing it now.

[253] And I don't care.

[254] Like, I can work X, Y, and Z. And I actually have, like, a whole chapter in a book where I'm essentially talking about, like, that was the time that I felt most validated in being a hard worker.

[255] And I felt like, because I was, I was in the library at 3am, and I was also on the phone with the suppliers at, you know, 7 a .m. the next morning and all of X, Y, and Z. And people could see it.

[256] And I was living it.

[257] I was like hustling the hustle.

[258] And that was when I was like, wow, like, this is it.

[259] Like, I am the hard worker, like, with capital H and W. And like, this is me. And I think that.

[260] that is like that kind of like sums it all up in the way that that was a huge challenge or some incredibly unwise challenge at the time and yet why did that feel like the time I was doing it right.

[261] So that's actually that's a lot of what spurred on essentially why I was writing the book because it was kind of like how can that be the epitome of hard work when that is also the epitome of not being productive like that's like completely unproductive and not useful for anyone.

[262] You're not going to be nice with the people you deal with at the time.

[263] You have a higher chance of actually like messing things up and all of that.

[264] And yet why was that the one time that I felt like truly validated for what I was doing?

[265] And you were broadcasting that.

[266] And I was broadcasting that.

[267] And there'll be people I'm sure who see me now who are like, but she, you know, did this and that.

[268] And like, yeah, sure, I work really hard.

[269] I really do.

[270] But there are some things that it's kind of like, I address that.

[271] And like, as I said to you, while I was writing the book, there were so many things that I noticed.

[272] I was like, I'm the problem here as well.

[273] I perpetuate this.

[274] How can I criticize a culture, the hustle culture, that I benefit from at the same time?

[275] How can I do that?

[276] And I think that that's what made me, you know, that's why I say that this book was such like a soul -searching process for me. Because I was like, you know, what is that?

[277] Why is that?

[278] Like, is that because I need the validation?

[279] Is that because we all need the validation now?

[280] Because hard work has become so unobtainable because it has to be doing this job, that job, like everything in between, also being amazing.

[281] self -care also doing like X, Y and Z. And I think that that's when I was kind of like, okay, this is a challenge, but it's not only a challenge, it was a silly thing to do.

[282] So it's not even like a, you know, there are things you have to do.

[283] There are crises you have to deal with and all of that that will be a challenge and will also be incredibly rewarding and all of that.

[284] And most of them are.

[285] But I think there are other things that you look at and you're like, yeah, this was a challenge and it also didn't have to happen.

[286] It's not do that again.

[287] You mentioned burnout.

[288] Yeah.

[289] And I remember reading a quote in a, in a piece that, you know, an interview that you did where you talked about mental health generally and how, you know, you'd reflected that maybe you weren't representing mental health in the right way.

[290] I think you said, you were giving advice, but it didn't apply to yourself in terms of, like, talking and being open about it.

[291] I want to know about, long way back.

[292] I've just been digging through everything.

[293] Yeah, I just wanted to get a flavour for everything.

[294] Oh, yeah, no, I appreciate it.

[295] And your home way.

[296] But talk to me about your mental health and the journey you've been on with your mental health since you were, you know, 18.

[297] Well, as I've said, I think probably a one of the reasons that I think I, you know, in that in that post to give context, I guess I said that I am one of the biggest advocates for people talking about their mental health.

[298] We have mental health days like within the company.

[299] Like, you know, you can take days off and you can literally just take a duvet day and it could be because of your mental health, whatever it might be.

[300] And I'm the biggest advocate for that and talking about it and everything.

[301] And then as soon as it came to me, me, no. Like, that was not, it's not the same case.

[302] Like, I'm not going to talk about it.

[303] I'm not going to deal with it.

[304] And it actually got to a point that I was having seizures, essentially, from something really horrible that I went to that was through, that was essentially ended up giving me PTSD that presented in seizures.

[305] And obviously, I was having symptoms up to the point of the seizures, but I only took it seriously when it was a physical symptom.

[306] Like, when it came to the point that I was like, okay, like, I'm being hospitalized now.

[307] Like, this is not ideal at all.

[308] And that was the thing that made me slow down.

[309] And that was the thing that maybe, or not even slow down.

[310] I don't even think I necessarily hugely slowed down after that.

[311] But it was kind of like, okay, this is real.

[312] And this is just as like, if something can manifest so physically that you're having a fucking seizure, then you probably need to take this more seriously.

[313] And that was, you know, like, that was, that was tough.

[314] That was right before my third year at university that that started.

[315] And everything up until then, like I've been a, I think I have this like really toxic mental health attitude within myself that doesn't prioritize it that isn't kind of, that kind of sees it as weakness, even though that's the last thing that I'd see, you know, in any of my friends who suffer from depression or anxiety or like, whatever it might be.

[316] And it's completely different.

[317] It's like, we don't get the same treatment.

[318] I'll understand that and I'll see that and I won't do that and I'm sure there are lots of people who are the exact same.

[319] You're not being compassionate to yourself.

[320] Exactly.

[321] And I think that that's another reason why I really needed to look inside myself and be able to evaluate that and be able to look at like, why?

[322] Like, why is that the case?

[323] Like, why do you feel so undeserving of the justification for like, you know, having bad mental health at one time?

[324] And I've been lucky that, you know, apart from this, which was a result of specific trauma, I've generally been, you know, I've had generally good mental health and I've, you know, been able to deal with, I guess, you know, like I think a lot of the way that mental health has presented is really damaging in that, you know, people do, I've had friends who have kind of said like, oh yeah, but, you know, I don't want to take meds from my depression or whatever and everyone has different views on it, but it's kind of being like, well, any other chemical imbalance in your brain you would because you'd say, like, hey, I need this to offset this, or I need insulin to offset this or whatever.

[325] And yet it's like a, it's a thing, it's like a, you know, what's she called?

[326] Like, Mrs. Trunchball, you know, from, from Matilda that you, like, have in your brain that's like, you do not, like, get this or, like, you do not, like, deserve to have that compassion or whatever it might be.

[327] So I think, like, I've had a, and I think I'm, what's so strange is that I don't know about you, but I'm able to talk about mental health really openly.

[328] And I literally had, so I thought it was really important for me to, I think as a business owner, I think it's probably important for all.

[329] I mean, I think it's important for everyone.

[330] But for business owners, I think it's important for everyone to get therapy because you're not meant to go through that much chaos all the time.

[331] You're not meant to have three messages a day that could kill your business.

[332] And yet you do.

[333] And you're like, and then you're like the next like 15 minutes later, you're like, so what's next?

[334] Like you're fine.

[335] You get, you get like programmed to get up again as like second nature.

[336] And then you never deal with things.

[337] So I kind of, I kind of decided I was like, I'm going to get, like, I'm just going to have it once a week and it's just going to be literally like an offload.

[338] And then I sat in it for kind of like two months and I was like, I'm like, I haven't cried yet and I'm a crier.

[339] So I'm clearly talking about my mental health as if I'm doing an interview and if I'm like, you know, just able to talk about it like, yeah, like I think it's important.

[340] And like this is like this is everything that's okay to talk about.

[341] This is everything that's not.

[342] And I won't address that.

[343] And I think that that's something for me to, I guess, to deal with.

[344] and I think that the important thing is as an owner of a business that has people within it and as someone with a platform and all of that, all of those things make it really important for me to treat mental health properly, both for myself and for other people, but I don't think I do.

[345] But you are setting a really remark, you know, what you said there about being a business owner and it's important for you to get therapy.

[346] One of the other points that I think of good that you'll be doing by doing that is you're setting a president for all of your employees that even me as the boss, you know and that creates a safe space for other people and in my business it was the same so we made mental health therapy opt out yeah I saw that yeah so like and it meant that the men who were hiding in the back that didn't want it to be tough guys whatever you know I was going and I told the directors the business my fat co -founder to go as well and that week my co -founder dom said he got something like 11 messages from men in the business that have been suffering from mental health but just had never spoken about it and he became like the de facto male therapist in our company for that reason what I wanted to go back to you on is the point you know you talked about this build -up that you had, which culminated in you being hospitalized with your mental health.

[347] I had a guest on the podcast a couple of weeks ago, and she's a kayaker, and she, something changed in her life, and it meant, and she wasn't listening to her body.

[348] And ultimately, she ended up getting chronic fatigue syndrome, where she went from being a kayaker that could kayak for two hours to not being able to lift up her hands.

[349] And she said, there were these warning signs in my life that I just ignored, my body went, listen, if you're not going to listen to me, then we're shutting down.

[350] And it sounded very similar to what you were saying.

[351] So my question is, what were those warning signs that you were in some respects by the sounds of it ignoring?

[352] Yeah, I won't talk about specifically from that perspective.

[353] I do think it's important to talk about in terms of burnout as a whole.

[354] So when we, I think the same thing applies to kind of like the way that this kind of productivity like rat race comes across now is that you, essentially need to be working as fast as you possibly can.

[355] It's not productivity at all.

[356] It's working.

[357] I guess if you look at productivity, like the definition is that you get the most amount done in the least amount of time.

[358] But that has fine, like that taken as one.

[359] And then that's multiplied.

[360] So you're getting the most amount done in the least amount of time so that you can do the most amount and the least amount of time again, rather than being able to just, you know, do that and move on.

[361] And fine, that's good.

[362] Like we should be, you know, we should be efficient.

[363] We think that, you know, it's also the equivalent of expecting someone like that or a marathon runner, ultramarathon runner to sprint for the whole marathon.

[364] Like, it's ineffective.

[365] They're not going to win.

[366] They're also probably going to get injured.

[367] You know, there's nothing beneficial about it.

[368] And we see it from a physical perspective and we completely ignore it from a mental perspective or from a work perspective.

[369] And I think that that's why it's so important to talk about, especially you and me people who are essentially will be seen in some way as like what hard work looks like that results in success or whatever it might be the acknowledgement that working hard does not mean working all the time and like having it all does not mean like doing it all and all of these various different things that actually are important to look at from ourselves as well because like as I said like I realized that actually probably I was perpetuating a lot more than I meant to.

[370] And that was why I then ended up needing to perpetuate things because, you know, I constantly wanted to show people that I was actually working hard, which actually all it gave off was this is how, what hard work looks like.

[371] And therefore there's, you know, it's probably stopping a whole generation of people who actually want to do something, but see something, see, you know, I'm not that type of person.

[372] I actually don't get up in the morning and want to read like some disgustingly pouring, like, nonfiction book.

[373] And like, but actually you're being able to acknowledge that and find some middle ground.

[374] and find some realisation that it doesn't all, like it's not going to be the same for you as it is for someone else and the same goes for hard work.

[375] And I think for me, you know, I now, and I think largely because of having written this book, I now see when I'm lagging.

[376] I now see when I need a rest.

[377] I now see, you know, I'm able to construct a working week that essentially, you know, is able, I'm able to be CEO at both companies.

[378] and I'm able to do all my work and I'm able to do my own work too that isn't just responsive to other people's work and then I think you know and I'm able to culminate that in a way that is I guess a livable way of me working and there have been times where it's not that there have been times where it's you know like hell to leather and doing everything possible but that's a needs must amount of time that is not representative of what hard work looks like and then being able to recognise that within myself and say like that's okay like you're not weak because you have to sleep like you're not weak because you have to you know like sit back sometimes or your creativity just isn't coming out you're just like a human or not even like even machines can't do that like if you had a machine like working like it would go into override or if it was set on the wrong thing or if it was you know like doing too many things at once it would go into override so like we don't it's not even that we don't realize we're humans we don't realize like limits at all we just have no boundaries and I think that's what's important there's been a big shift I think over the last, I'd say, two years, there's been a huge conversation around burnout, right?

[379] And it's gotten to the point, I did a post about this either day, but it's gotten to a point where I actually feel bad talking about working hard.

[380] And I played around with that idea, because on one hand, you can be deceitful in the sense that you say, like, I work 24 hours a day and I never sleep.

[381] And on the other hand, you can be really deceitful in saying, listen, hard work doesn't matter.

[382] Self care and like, sit back and put it on a face mask.

[383] Yeah, but like, I don't want to lie to you.

[384] I still work really hard, but obviously there's nuance and balance and sometimes I don't have good days and something, but I don't know anyone that's really successful.

[385] That doesn't work hard.

[386] I don't know any athlete.

[387] A hundred percent.

[388] I think what I even realized that was after I kind of went through all of this like self -discovery and writing the think pieces and all of that, and then I sat down to write the productivity method and I was like, I feel like Gordon Ramsey telling someone he's like an idiot sandwich.

[389] Like I literally feel like I'm being that harsh just because I'm telling you that, actually, if you want to get that done, you've got to get it done.

[390] And I think that's why the whole reason I repositioned it rather than, you know, it's not just, because as soon as you're that, then you're equally as harmful in the perpetuation of, like, self -care culture that now has these knee -jerk reactions that's either like it's like a cult and it's like this wellness thing or it's like a waste of time.

[391] There's like a middle ground, like that is important for everyone.

[392] But it doesn't just need to be kind of like, you know, like face masks.

[393] and everything.

[394] It can be, it has to be, like, part of all of it.

[395] So, yeah, you might work till 3am from 6am every night for a month.

[396] I would argue that that's not that possible beyond that point.

[397] Like, it might be, and you might be an incredibly hard worker and, you know, like, and I perceive myself to be, but you still, at the end of it all, you still need rest.

[398] And yes, you're completely right.

[399] There's no glory and no kind of benefit in also perpetuating the completely the other side.

[400] You know, sometimes self -care is the most productive thing you can do, but also sometimes productivity is an act of self -care.

[401] Like, you need to, it's self -care to look at that project that you've been putting off for three weeks for the 50th time and actually get it done.

[402] That's self -care.

[403] Like that isn't, it doesn't have to be, you know, this, that or the other.

[404] It doesn't need to be compartmentalized into like, you know, some forms of work are self -care, some forms of self -care, some forms of self -care.

[405] care are like what you know like it goes both ways and I think that that's what's important I think it's rather than choosing one or the other it's just real it's like being realistic and being you know you don't always need to be like disarmingly like I've had a bad day today because I also feel in the same way like I can't be asked to do that the whole time like I don't like when I've had a bad day I don't instantly think like ah I will get the reward from being vulnerable by sharing this on social media like that's not my instant reaction but at the same time there is an importance and I do think that people like us also have a duty to be able to share both sides even if it's that being like, you know, like I was up till 11 last night writing a crisis plan for something.

[406] Like, you know, like you constantly have these things and it's like and then like, so there's just so many different types of I guess there are so many different angles to it and as long as there's kind of a more realistic thing as long as you don't feel weak to say that you sleep or whatever and you also don't feel like you're being like really mean.

[407] to say like you have to work hard to do well both of those things are wrong so like there must be a middle ground and that the the the left side you speak you speak to i'm just calling it the left just because it was the left my raised my left hand when i described it i'm not saying it's the left but it is it's like um i've always considered myself to be more left than i am anything else but um i felt somewhat alienated by this kind of lack of personal responsibility blame someone else um pessimism culture that's emerging from that side.

[408] And I, in some respects, as someone that's been a social media series for about almost 10 years, I understand the algorithms will create echo chambers and they'll reinforce things and you're actually polarising us to be the right, on the right, and the left and more on the left.

[409] And my point here is that I like to be a bit more nuanced.

[410] I don't think binary solutions to complex problems ever make sense.

[411] Left, you know, rich, poor, black, white, left, right, whatever it is.

[412] And I posted something about personal responsibility.

[413] and being grateful and things you can do if you're feeling bad and there was a lot of people that said I was, and I actually take this as a compliment, they said I was toxic positive and this whole new phrase not being too positive being so positive that it makes people feel bad and I don't give a shit right?

[414] I also think we have toxic things within ourselves and that's like if you tell but also like you can tell me I'm toxically positive and I like if, so for example like I might be the same in that I know that you know, I'm not, I would consider myself probably like a realist.

[415] Like I wouldn't consider myself like a constant optimist.

[416] But I also know that like my coping mechanism for anything going wrong is to make something else go right.

[417] So if that needs me to work hard, if that needs me to push completely into work for 40 days and 49, but like I'll do it.

[418] But I think that, you know, I think core, you know, being able to label something as something doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad.

[419] I think, sure, if someone thinks that toxic positivity, then fine.

[420] A, I don't think that necessarily needs to be kind of, you know, like nothing is going to be nuanced enough on social media for you to understand unless it's like a 2000 word think piece.

[421] But I also think that like these things exist.

[422] Like, we all know some of these.

[423] Like, I know that I have bad coping mechanisms in some way I know that.

[424] I don't think anyone else to tell me. If they do, like, it's fine, but it doesn't, like, there's no benefit here.

[425] Like, you're still.

[426] You're still.

[427] You're still going to think that way.

[428] And therefore, if you're sharing more of your thoughts, it's still going to be like that.

[429] You might be toxicly positive, but it's, that's, you know, that's you're also going to say.

[430] And like, that would also be, you would also be lying to then say, okay, well, I'm going to make this more realist.

[431] And so I'm going to do X, Y and Z, and I'm going to put that out there.

[432] And then there are going to be more people who say the other side.

[433] So it's like, you can either spend your life, like, swinging back and forth between, like, what people perceive to be right.

[434] And you're never going to get everyone, because obviously, as you say, it's completely polarised.

[435] But, or you can kind of be like, yeah, you might not like this.

[436] I just, my whole stance is like I've read a lot of stuff about psychology, studied psychology for a little while.

[437] I've had my life experience.

[438] And if you follow me, you're here to get that stuff.

[439] And you don't have to agree.

[440] You don't even have to like it.

[441] And there's loads of other, and I think I did a story the day being like, there's loads of places you can get like fluffy, you know, face masks.

[442] So the answer to everything stuff.

[443] It's just not here because of my lived experience.

[444] And I understand I have a, you know, a bias because I'm an individual that's had an individual experience.

[445] When I was stalking you online, Grace, I found it really hard to find a boyfriend.

[446] I was looking a lot.

[447] Like, I was like, I found, like, I was like, fuck it, we'll try Google images.

[448] Google images.

[449] I was like, these are just friends.

[450] And then I was like, yeah, I mean, I don't think anyone will find a boyfriend probably until I'm maybe married with kids.

[451] But, I mean, as in, there's a conscious choice.

[452] Yeah, yeah, I'm not.

[453] It's not.

[454] There's a boyfriend there because I read some stuff about you meeting this guy when you're like 15 and then you're like, on off.

[455] Oh, no, no, there's not a boyfriend there.

[456] Oh, there's not a boyfriend there.

[457] There's not a boyfriend there.

[458] But there's never going to be a boyfriend.

[459] from there for people to see.

[460] But yeah.

[461] Being young, being successful, being a woman.

[462] I know where this is going.

[463] Yeah.

[464] Maybe I don't have to ask the question.

[465] I'm just saying, like, I ask this question a lot of guests because probably because I've struggled myself.

[466] Right?

[467] So being young, you're a successful woman in business.

[468] A lot of guys, just going to be honest, would be quite intimidated.

[469] Right?

[470] You don't have to answer that, but they would.

[471] I'm one of them.

[472] I'll tell you.

[473] I'm not speaking from myself.

[474] I'm speaking from some insecure friends.

[475] that I have that would feel intimidated by their partner, who is a woman, being successful.

[476] That's just some men are insecure enough to find that emasculating.

[477] Yeah.

[478] Talk to me about the difficulties of having romantic relationships when you are young, you are successful, you are a woman.

[479] I'd say it's not necessarily what I'm concentrated on, first and foremost.

[480] And just, just from, like, you know, I want to do lots of things before I concentrate on that.

[481] I also think that one of the things that I guess I found, because I, what you're saying is true.

[482] But I think what I find comforting in that is also the fact that, like, I don't want to be with someone who finds that masculating.

[483] So I think it's quite a good, it's quite a good kind of whittledown process.

[484] Because like, if you find it emasculated, like that's fine.

[485] In the same way as like any other thing that people might not like about someone.

[486] You don't want to be with someone who doesn't.

[487] doesn't, you know, like my work is the biggest part of me. That's really sad.

[488] It's not, but like it's a huge part of my life, and it will be, and I would never want to be with someone who thought that was any short of, like, great.

[489] And so it doesn't necessarily, I mean, maybe it will trouble me down the line, but currently it's kind of like, yes, I completely agree.

[490] I think people do find it intimidating and emasculating.

[491] I also think that that's kind of, you know, as I say, that doesn't necessarily change anything because it's actually not, you know, I would have no interest in being with someone who can be emasculated by that.

[492] And at this point in your life, do you foresee in the future at some point you wanting to be with a partner?

[493] Yes, yeah.

[494] I mean, I think naturally, I think a lot of people, or I say probably the large, yeah, yeah.

[495] And I think that it's important, especially with women, not to presume.

[496] I've made that mistake before.

[497] Yeah.

[498] No, I mean, I, you know, I couldn't have, have, like, one friend who I think of who I know she knows that she doesn't want to, like, ever have, like, a life partner.

[499] Like, she doesn't, it doesn't make sense to her, which I think is completely, I think makes sense, you know, like, but I think that absolutely at some point.

[500] And, but I'm in no rush.

[501] I mean, I'm very young.

[502] When that day comes.

[503] Yes.

[504] what are the difficulties you see in the current way that you live your life and forming a relationship with whoever this person this lucky person might be I say the first problem is probably going to be closet space I think no I think in general why is grace difficult today and why probably yes you should probably ask a few people no I mean I think that I'm an incredibly loving person and I'm incredibly dedicated to the people I love and that currently is filled by amazing friends and family and people I'm lucky to have in my life and I think that that will you know at some point as I say like that will absolutely hopefully be filled by you know that type of position but I think that the difficulties would probably just you know be about around understanding that work is as important as it is to me. And I think that, you know, like, I've had relationships in the past.

[505] And that is, you know, like that does, it does become a problem.

[506] And I also think that, you know, then you can't necessarily combat that by having someone who's the same.

[507] Otherwise, you're never going to see each other.

[508] Like, I think I probably, you know, would want someone who has the same values in that way.

[509] But there has to be like a kind of middle ground or there has to be then, you know, some sort of way in which you will see each other once every 15 years or something.

[510] But no, I think the troubles will be around work and they won't be around emasculation because, as I say, that wouldn't be, you know, then there's no space for that.

[511] But I think, you know, in the same way as I'm able to be a great friend and family member and, you know, all of that now, it's, to me it's an extension of that.

[512] To me, it won't be, you know, any different.

[513] I know in my qualities, you know, I probably, probably part of the reason why that's not what I want now.

[514] is because I also know that I care a lot about that.

[515] So, you know, if I am in that situation, I will give a lot to that.

[516] And currently I don't have a lot to give to that.

[517] So, you know, I think it's a prioritisation for me. And currently that's not a priority.

[518] Yeah.

[519] How has running business and the way that people have treated you in business, especially being a young entrepreneur, and I reflect on this in my own life, changed you as a friend, as a person, you know, your patience, your snappiness, your tolerance.

[520] I think I'm a lot more, I think that's part of it that's actually quite interesting that I've been thinking more about recently where if you're in business and you call the shots, how does that develop in friendship?

[521] So I, I've actually talked about that recently.

[522] I don't think I've, you know, I've had to grow in confidence to say, especially to, for example, men who have far more experience than me and are technically, you know, working for me. Like, there's been a point where it's kind of can I say like that this is not right or like whatever and I've developed that but I think you know I think I've now developed that well and I don't think I have a problem with that now and therefore I think that you know there's going to be part of that where you then like how does that switch off automatically the second you step through your door and you're with your family or your friends or your housemates or whatever and I think that that's probably something that I'll you know I'm very grateful that I think someone once asked me like how do you stay like grounded and down to earth.

[523] And I think that I don't go for the types of friends that obviously my friends like bring me up and they're my biggest fans, but there is no smoke being blown anywhere.

[524] Like, as in they will be the first person to also say, you know, and that's what I value.

[525] Like, I don't want to be in a superior position in friendship, in family relations, in whatever it is.

[526] And I will never be with the friends and family that I have.

[527] and I think that that's so important and I think that that can absolutely affect people and I think that you know I've seen people then surround themselves only with people in their position or only with whatever and I think that you know one of the most valuable things I have is that a lot of my friends are in entry level jobs and I'm able to see from their point of view what's the most frustrating thing about their workplace and not feeling valued or whatever and I'm allowed I can make sure that that I tried for like my best to make sure that never happens for people within mine and I think that so you can get those you know, you get so many benefits from having different people around you.

[528] Primarily, like, no one is kind of there.

[529] Yeah, as we say, blow its own.

[530] What about when the bill comes?

[531] Oh, well, first of all, be pleased to hear that my friends like to go to very cheap places.

[532] Which I also, like, I love a, you know, nice dinner and a nice, like, whatever.

[533] But you will not, I mean, you'll find me buying a bottle in a club if it's one of my friends' birthdays or, like, whatever.

[534] You know, like, I love treating my friends.

[535] I love taking them on holiday, like I love, you know, but it's, you can tell when that's someone who's there for that.

[536] I also have, the large majority of my friends have been around me for a long time, and I think I generally trust myself to be a good charge of character.

[537] I've got it wrong before, you know, I've had things where I've kind of like taken people on trips, right and centre, and then you can tell that, like, that was the aim.

[538] But, like, in general, actually, you know, I have amazing people around me and, like, I think we I'm I like to consider myself a generous person and I want to you know do things like like yeah sometimes I will just be like I'll just get this or like whatever it might be and I'm in a position to do that and I think especially if you know there'll be a friend who's been asking for her workplace for a raise for three years and it hasn't even gone up with inflation and there's kind of like there are ways that you could like as in and it's not the it's not compensating for that but it's being like you need to be able to be grounded enough and like whatever to be able to still be a friend to people who are in you know either a very different situation or like whatever it might be and I think that I never want to lose that so yeah I'll buy nice things for people and I'll do that just as I would for any like anyone like my sisters or whatever if they need something but it's not I think I'll tell instantly and maybe not maybe I'm being walked all over by everyone but I'm happy so no we find ourselves in the same position largely right and I think they're point is you've been successful and the people that you love you want to share that you know you want to have good times and good experiences with but being realistic mathematically they won't be able to have those experiences unless you create them right and so that creates a bit of an issue for you because you want to you know have good time to your friends but you know that you know that you're you're going to you're going to have to create that situation whether it's a holiday and it's not a problem for you because you love these people and they're good people but it can sometimes create yeah of course and there's a I think also like the important thing from, because I know people who talk about that problem, but also they love the flex.

[539] So it's like, okay, if you're complaining that you're always the one paying for the bill and you're also the same person saying for three weekends in a row, let's go to Nobu, or even one weekend, like, it's fucking expensive.

[540] Like, you know, like you're going to, like, that generates a certain type of thing.

[541] And I think that, you know, that's not necessarily their fault then, but I also think that there's a, you know, if you want to be doing that all the time and you're the only person person in that position in your friend group then you're you know there's a certain thing that's demanded of you but I think like at the same time that you can be a good friend and be like very generous and like like I understand that I'm incredibly fortunate to be in my position and I want to get the nice Christmas presents and like whatever it might be and take people on holiday like if you know I want to go or whatever it might be but um I think yeah largely yeah it's a difficult it's not a difficult position to be in like it's an incredibly fortunate position to be in, but there are things that come with it.

[542] And I think that, you know, thankfully I haven't been, I guess, like, harmed by that too much.

[543] And I, you know, intend to, I don't want that to make me a bad person.

[544] And I don't think it will.

[545] It sounds like you're keeping the right people around you.

[546] That's probably the most important thing, right?

[547] People that will tell you when you're stepping out a line.

[548] Oh, trust me. Yeah.

[549] Exactly.

[550] Good.

[551] That'll be the first person to be like, this comes across awfully.

[552] So bad.

[553] I'll be like, thank you so much.

[554] That's really good.

[555] No more trips to the buy, Becky!

[556] We talked a little bit before we started recording about working culture and how working culture has changed and how the pandemic has shifted things to being, you know, working from home.

[557] What's your take on working culture and how teams should operate and how your teams operate and stuff?

[558] So I've been reading a lot about this recently, actually, general things, you know, like rework, work rules, like all of those types of books talking about working culture.

[559] And I think that the main point of industry, interest for me that I've kind of been exploring, obviously, has been the idea of working culture, but how we internalize it and how our lack of boundaries within this generation has meant that we have no boundaries between work or not work.

[560] So it's kind of, you can be working anywhere and everywhere.

[561] So when you're not, you've kind of internalized this idea that when you're not working everywhere and anywhere, it's the equivalent of like being in an office and taking a nap, like just because you're living your life.

[562] And I think that that to me is the most, that stands out as the most problematic kind of side of working culture within our generation.

[563] I also think that that is coupled with, you know, like companies like Google, for example, who are seen to have really good working culture because they support their employees, they, you know, unlimited holiday, all of that.

[564] Some of that is also a thinly veiled way of making people work more because they don't have to do their laundry.

[565] They don't have to cook their lunch.

[566] They don't have to, you know, they're not going to take any of that holiday if they're given unlimited, but they do feel valued so they work harder.

[567] you know, and I think that it's really complex.

[568] And I think that it's not necessarily like, I definitely couldn't deconstruct it as a whole and I probably perpetuate it in some ways.

[569] But I think that it's important that we look at it more and more.

[570] Now these boundaries are absolutely gone, especially, you know, I started having some of these thoughts and feelings when I started working from home before we progressed to having an office.

[571] And I kind of was thinking, like, why am I working more than I ever have and producing less than I ever have?

[572] And also my mental health is on the floor.

[573] Yeah.

[574] And I think that then.

[575] when kind of there was the office exodus going at the kind of pandemic and then people kind of saying the same thing and all of that and I was like oh good and I'm like why am I feeling happy you know the fact that everyone else is struggling too and it was you know it's a lack of boundaries we have awful boundaries surrounding work surrounding success surrounding all of this and it's part of a generation that I guess bulldozes boundaries in a kind of progressive sense but it ends up meaning that we actually don't know where we stand.

[576] We don't know what is good for us.

[577] And I guess we are constantly on the hustle train being told to like do more, think more, achieve more, like, X, Y, Z without ever questioning whether it serves us because that's what we've been put on.

[578] Like, if you're a hard worker, you have to go in that, like, kind of way.

[579] And I talk a lot in the book as well about like the, I guess, the kind of contradiction between the progressing values of like a four -day work week.

[580] and, you know, amazing, you know, places like Nordic countries that have amazing work rules and all of that.

[581] And at the same time, like, at literally the exact same time.

[582] And often by the same, you know, people, the same kind of examination of it, we also have this idea that you kind of need to work all the time.

[583] And it's like, how are we progressing in these two completely different directions?

[584] And we don't necessarily know which one is right.

[585] And then if we're going down to the four -day work week, is that because it makes us more productive.

[586] So technically it's actually to make us work more or produce more or whatever it might be.

[587] And so I guess it's all just very complex and I think that there's not enough examination around it in the mainstream, I guess.

[588] Like you should be able to, if you're in the financial position too and you want to and everything, like you should technically be able to take your work down to four days a week or whatever.

[589] And that seems like the most ludicrous suggestion ever because, you know, you could always be producing more.

[590] You could always be doing this.

[591] You could always, well, then you should side hustle and that three -day weekend you get and like x y and z and so i think it is i think it's damaging and i think that yeah as i say isn't there something funny here well you know because we're talking about ideas that we would probably never live ourselves yeah like you're not gonna oh no three days off for fucking weekend and i'd love to yeah would you i think i'd go and say but but yeah no i think it's completely true and i think that part of this has been being like, okay, this is really unhealthy, this is actually problematic, this is X, Y, Z, and yet you are the embodiment of all of them.

[592] But that's important, and I think social media discourages that type of thought because you have to be on the defensive.

[593] You have to say, like, yeah, this is a bad idea and this is a bad idea, and yet I do both of them.

[594] You have to either acknowledge it's a bad idea or not acknowledge it's a bad idea and just do it.

[595] You can't have this like cognitive dissonance of thinking one thing and like doing another because, yeah, like sure, that's a bad idea.

[596] thing in some ways, but also like, you have to accept the fact that you don't always think what you're doing is a good idea or you don't, you know, you know something's good in theory, but don't do it or whatever.

[597] And I think social media completely bulldozes that opportunity because you have to like stand firm.

[598] You have to stand your ground.

[599] You have to, and I found myself actually getting quite one of the reasons I stepped back from social media was because I felt like I was justifying myself constantly, not to not outwardly to myself because I was like, I need to, you know, but like if I agree with this.

[600] Why do I do this?

[601] And like, all of that.

[602] And I think that I had to be like, this is causing so, like, I'm going into overdrive because I don't know how to deal with the fact that I have multiple thoughts at once.

[603] Because social media makes you linear.

[604] It makes you, it makes you, yeah, it makes that like lack of nuance, like your thing.

[605] Like, it's the MO.

[606] And so I think that the, I think that's kind of, yeah, where I realize that, like, we just can't discuss anything.

[607] Like, you have to choose your camp.

[608] You have to choose your, like, whatever.

[609] You, when I first came across you.

[610] It was a couple of years ago.

[611] It was actually on Twitter.

[612] And I don't know, I followed you, you followed me. Let's just go with you followed me because it makes me look better.

[613] And I went on your profile and I remember going down and thinking, here we have an influencer who actually stands for something.

[614] And that was my only like real sort of, that was my first sort of take on you.

[615] And then a couple of years passed by whatever.

[616] And I wondered as I was, you know, going through some of the tweets more recently that were, you know, people just talking nonsense, whatever.

[617] I wondered, you know, there's a cost to that.

[618] There's a real cost to standing for something because then it's much easier just to stand for nothing because then I can't attack you for anything right because you're you don't you know but when you decide that you want to stand for something whether it's sustainability or whether it's certain values you then are interrogated for perfection yeah and one human step out of line we've got you yeah yeah no absolutely I think the same is in everyday life but it's magnified to a point you know in the same way I remember when I I went vegan like three years ago now and I my friend said that my friend the reason I went vegan was because my friend was ill at the time and she couldn't eat any dairy products and she was upset about it and we were actually going traveling together and so I said I would do it with her and we were like let's just try it like it'll be fun and I was like fuck I really didn't want to give this up but we did it and then we actually stuck to it and I was kind of like I actually like this it works really well for me and I and she was saying how hard her friends were taking it and how like they were just like you know, be like, ha, you just say that, that actually apparently has like this.

[619] And it's like, it's the same.

[620] It's just magnified.

[621] And I think that, I think that part of its projection, we don't like to acknowledge that we think one thing and sometimes do another in ourselves, but we love to pick it up on other people.

[622] And I think part of it's just, as we say, it's the binary of social media.

[623] It's the lack of kind of, you know, it's the fact that that is going to happen.

[624] And I do, you know, you find yourselves doing things the whole time where you're like, oh, probably shouldn't have done that or like whatever.

[625] And I think social media amplifies that to the point that it's so much more of a big deal than it needs to be.

[626] Sometimes it does need to be a big thing.

[627] Like I'll stand by the fact that, you know, cancel culture, fine.

[628] Like in a lot of ways, not great.

[629] In some ways, like there are some areas.

[630] Yeah, really shouldn't be said or whatever.

[631] But I think that there's also like an aspect of that that's kind of, you know, we live our lives constantly thinking one thing and doing another like cognitive dissonance like we you know like you know you should be better for the planet and yet you still buy fast fashion or you still like eat meat every day or like whatever it might be it's how we operate and I think that that isn't allowed on social media I don't think that's like a then like a complaint I think it's more like a that's how social media is and therefore if you're using it in that way there kind of needs to be an acknowledgement of the fact that that's just like I know that and I know where I go wrong and I know you know like where I'd like to do better and that's for me to deal with so you know and so I think that that's something that we see across our lives and it's just hugely magnified when you made this decision to step back from social media I know you you hadn't posted on YouTube either for about 11 months I have all my dates was there a part of you that thought you would let this negativity of social media win?

[632] I don't, I think any time I've thought that, I've realized that it's completely untrue because I've realized it later.

[633] So when I step back from YouTube, that was about, that was, you know, a bit after all the things I've talked about that, like, I was going through and it wasn't right for me and I just decided not to do it.

[634] And I think that also part of that was a business decision.

[635] It's a, like, lost.

[636] to income in the kind of short term, but everything I've done for the past three years has been towards longevity.

[637] It hasn't been about the short term because I've been able, you know, at the beginning I accumulated enough to be able to make that change and to be able to say, okay, well, I want to, in two years' time, if I want to, to be able to disappear.

[638] So, you know, that's, I think, rather than, I don't think anything has to be a defeat, like, sure, it could be.

[639] Some people can consider it that for themselves.

[640] Like, great, that's fine.

[641] Then we both win, because I realized, and once again, I talk about it, like I talk about kind of like the thought process behind it in my book, and I realized that kind of that was actually not, you know, I had this choice to be full -time influence, I guess, with my businesses in the background.

[642] And I also had the choice to lean in and really make these businesses something and make them, you know, like much bigger and have the potential of, you know, growing them huge, maybe selling one one day.

[643] like, whatever it might be.

[644] And I think that I decided as well that actually what made me happy in the actual work itself was the head down, get it done, even like the crisis management, the working with the team till 3am, the building a brand, all of that.

[645] That, like, I was so young and still am that I hadn't even started my career.

[646] Like, sure, I had.

[647] But I, like, everyone, I guess anyone at any time can do three years of something, then decide to go to business school, then decide to stop and do writing, or like, whatever it might be.

[648] that was my change.

[649] That was me being like, actually, what do I like in the day to day?

[650] It's not, you know, whatever.

[651] Like, there was a lot of stuff that I was doing that I did love.

[652] But I, A, I saw what was happening down the line.

[653] I saw that it was really hard to maintain that after a certain amount of time.

[654] And as I said, I've always had this kind of constant anxiety that I'm going to end up doing something I don't want to do, which has made me be probably quite proactive and actually being like, actually, no, I'm going to do X, Y and Z to make this not happen.

[655] And I think that, you know, sure, like there was part of, you know, there will be parts of it where it's like, oh, and also even better than that, I mean, so I won't get the negativity.

[656] But I also loved the sense of community.

[657] I loved, you know, at that time, actually, I didn't get much negativity at all.

[658] Like, and I don't think you do necessarily when it's kind of like just a sharing of your life.

[659] Like, people loved, especially the fact that I was at uni for three years.

[660] So I was showing a really realistic, like, I'm still just going to be in my one room home, like, you know, doing another essay.

[661] Like, it's not that exciting.

[662] And people loved that.

[663] It was, I think, because, you know, once a channel grows, it often gets unrelatable, which, you know, people have different arguments about that, but, like, for three years, mine had to stay relatable because I was still within that same room writing more essays.

[664] And I think that I absolutely loved that.

[665] Like, I loved that, and I will cherish that as part of my career that I really did love.

[666] I think I know that what I'm doing now is what I'm meant to be doing.

[667] I also think I'm really good at it.

[668] And I think that I feel fulfilled.

[669] Like, I genuinely feel fulfilled.

[670] most, if not every day.

[671] What are you, so what are you doing now in terms of your focus and your, I guess the question that I wanted to ask to that point is, what are you, as it relates to your businesses, and I think about the same question for myself, what is the bit that you're really good at and that you think, do you know what, that's the piece that where I consider myself to be replaceable?

[672] So I guess the more I, you know, as a CEO or a founder who's moving, into another area or whatever it might be like you you step back to work on the business rather than in the business right so the more i step back i think the more you then realize what you're really good at because those are the things that you keep having to jump back into and you keep realizing that like yeah i could get this person to do it and i could delegate it entirely which you know you try and do and then it keeps coming back and it's not quite right and for me that's marketing and branding that's like the you know the thing and that is i also think that a lot of successful businesses are, you know, founder -led businesses are the one where I was talking to a friend about it the other day actually are the ones where the founder is product and brand and they still have that involvement.

[673] Whether it's just a vision and their briefing at the beginning of a process or whatever it might be, that is where the concentration is because that is what the brand is.

[674] And we are in a generation where brand is everything.

[675] And so the, you know, the house of CBs, like what, you know, the, yeah, they're all, they're all, their brand and beyond brand, their brand bleeding through to product.

[676] And so, you know, it's, it's good that that's my concentration as well, because, you know, that's definitely paid off.

[677] But I also think that that's the things again and again that when I was having the discipline to step back and to actually, you know, do what I should be doing, which is not being in the execution all the time, being in the lead and being in the vision.

[678] those were the ones where I realized that I was like, okay, I have to be in this in some way.

[679] Sure.

[680] Even if that's, you know, as I say, writing a brief at the beginning of the process or mentoring that person through the first few times or being at the end of the approval process, whatever it might be, those are the things that I, nothing will go live without that going through me, not at every stage at all, but there are stages, whether that's the beginning, the end, both, whatever it might be.

[681] It sounds remarkably similar to, many of the founders, especially young founders that I've spoken to who have that realization like Ben, who's been on this podcast as well from Jim Shark, even like Hure, Julian who runs Huell, where at some point, I'm speaking more about Ben here, you have, and to be fair, myself as well, because at social chain, I wasn't doing process, finance, legal, all that nonsense.

[682] I was doing brand marketing.

[683] We have that realization that that is your strong point.

[684] It's also the bit that you love.

[685] And all the other things, the process, the business stuff, those were systems that were created long ago and that there are tons of very, you know, better people than you to handle those things.

[686] And it becomes a case of where will my investment of my time return the most for the business?

[687] And I don't think people have that conversation enough because I think young founders sometimes feel like they have to be able to do everything, right?

[688] I think that is the materialization of this hustle culture.

[689] I think a lot of that led, it's the kind of like idea of, so I talk about this thing called like announcement culture, which I thought was a thing, but then I actually looked at.

[690] up and isn't anywhere.

[691] So I kind of defined, like, defined it within the book about the, essentially the idea that, you know, success is valued as more within this generation once it's announceable.

[692] So it's not the underlying stuff, even if that was doing more.

[693] It is everything that is announceable, labelable, all of the above.

[694] So it also comes on a micro level within our every day.

[695] Like, we like to tick things, we like to see the things ticked off.

[696] Like we like to, you know, we'd probably rather see 10 things ticked off our to do list than have actually made some real thinking progress in a concept that like, whatever, because that's, that's, the way you feel more productive, you feel like you've done more.

[697] And I think that that's also an area where founders, people on social media who are within businesses, whatever, they need to be seen to be doing everything to be validated.

[698] And I don't think that's a personal problem.

[699] I think I've had it 100%.

[700] I think I still have it at certain points.

[701] But, you know, it's a validation through being told you're legitimate because you do things.

[702] And like, I'm not going to lie.

[703] I don't know half of the shit that goes on in our finance meetings.

[704] And I will sit there and I will look at it and I'll look at, you know, and that's great.

[705] And I need to be over it.

[706] And I need to have that understanding and I'll ask the questions.

[707] But I also think that the second I let that fear of illegitimacy by not doing everything leave was the second that I was able to actually be a leader.

[708] Because I was able to realize that actually what, if I'm better than everyone at their specific things, then we've got a business that is as big as one person.

[709] Like as it goes, like you should hire people that are better.

[710] than you at their specific disciplines.

[711] So, like, even if you're, like, if you're micromanaging, if you're being, like, a bottleneck, if you're like, whatever it might be, you are automatically causing a problem, or not even necessarily causing a problem.

[712] It might work, you know, like, it might go to plan.

[713] But you are restricting that growth, that potential, that magnitude of the business, because you are, and it's for your ego.

[714] It is not for anything other than.

[715] than your ego, even if that's an innocent thing, even, you know, as I say, I still do it, I'm sure at points, even if that's, you know, like you want to be said to be on this project that did really well.

[716] And I think that as a founder, you have to get to a point where that ego, of course, it's like a validation thing and it's a coping mechanism and you'd like to think that you always do the best for your business, but especially when we looked at online and when, you know, we need to be seen that we're involved in this, that and the other, because otherwise people think, you know, like especially someone who, I'm sure, or lots of people think I'm just the face of the business, whatever.

[717] So, like, maybe I need to prove that I do X, Y and Z. But the second I stopped doing that was the second I, as I say, was actually able to do my job.

[718] Remarkable, when I was 18, 19, 20, starting the business, because I was young, I'm going to be honest, I definitely feared hiring really experienced people because I thought, well, how am I going to manage them?

[719] And they're going to figure out that I'm not that experience, and it's going to be difficult.

[720] And so I look at the first 10 hires I did, and they're all like kids.

[721] Yeah.

[722] I'm like, why did I hire 10 kids?

[723] And then I get to a point where I'm like 21, 22, and I start social chain.

[724] And I hire some really experienced people.

[725] Then they go on to hire loads of, because the people, the people who have hiring.

[726] Yeah, they know what their teams need to look like.

[727] I always say in our companies, I'm like, the most important people are the people you have hiring all the other people, right?

[728] Oh, absolutely.

[729] And my life became 99 .9 % easier when we got better people in.

[730] And I fell back and stopped letting my ego or my insecurities run the show.

[731] And the other thing, which I wasn't expecting, is it actually makes you look.

[732] so much better when your business works.

[733] But like I think the thing is that like you've got to ask yourself, yeah, would you like the business to have the glory or would you like you to have the glory?

[734] And like then realize that if the business has the glory, you still have the glory, but you just have to wait a bit.

[735] Like you just have to not need to be validated every day by the fact that you were involved on that project that did well or the fact that you signed that off.

[736] I don't need to sign something off if the team is made of people who are better than me. And like, fine, actually, I'm sure there are people who are far better than me within branding, but it's my brand.

[737] So, you know, like, still, that's going to be, that's going to be, like, put in a certain direction.

[738] But I think you're completely right.

[739] I mean, I actually hired, you know, in my final year of uni, I actually had three students working for me, or one student and two fresh grads, and they were great.

[740] Like, they were fantastic.

[741] And, like, I think they're, you know, amazing.

[742] One of them still working with in Tala now.

[743] And I think that, I think that, that actually was my only option at the time.

[744] Like, oh, I couldn't afford to hire, you know, like, any more than that.

[745] And it was people who I put them through, like, so many tasks.

[746] And I was like, I need you to be the right person because I'm about to launch business and do my finals at the same time.

[747] So I'm going to be outsourcing.

[748] And I always say, actually, a lot of the reason for my success was also the fact that I was forced to outsource so early based on the fact that I was at university and Oxford had always been my dream.

[749] As I say, I applied twice.

[750] Like, I was not going to let it go.

[751] I thought I deserved to be there.

[752] And I proved when I was there that I did.

[753] And I think that that I was so committed to getting to the end of that, getting what I deserved, and, you know, and being proud of myself, even though that wasn't necessarily my dream anymore.

[754] That was my, like, childhood dream.

[755] I was so convinced that that was going to happen that I had to outsource immediately, essentially.

[756] And who was that first key senior hire that came into your business?

[757] And how did it feel when you, you know, you saw the salary and you thought, fuck?

[758] Yeah.

[759] So salary -wise, those, those are.

[760] more recent.

[761] Those are much more recent.

[762] Those are within the part.

[763] Actually, probably right before I finished uni, there was someone who we hired and I was like, but I actually managed to get someone else to hire them.

[764] So, so to work on essentially what would be my account.

[765] So the, but even then, I was kind of looking at that and I was like, you know, like that regardless of who's hiring, it affects the P &L.

[766] So like, you know, and but then more recently, there, have been, you know, we've been hiring ahead of product from Sweaty Betty, you know, like, all of the, like, the people.

[767] And, like, it's, but also, like, those are the ones where I have to, like, hype myself up to join the interview because I'm like, you graduated from my university 20 years ago.

[768] Yeah.

[769] Like, I graduated to, not even two years ago.

[770] Like, like, do I ask you for, like, help?

[771] Like, do I ask you permission to ask you questions?

[772] And I think that the, the, the, it all ties in as well because as soon as you realize that you don't need to be that person, you, you, also realize that they're not wanting you to be that person.

[773] They want to come in and do their expertise.

[774] They don't want you to be like, oh, I just want to check over this because I'm the founder or I'm the CEO.

[775] They, yeah, they just want to do their job.

[776] And the better they do their job, the better you do their job, the better you do their job.

[777] It's all cyclical, but it's like ego and validation and legitimacy that ties together to make this kind of big old like cauldron of like this is probably ineffective but i have to be not even validated i don't think it's vapid like i don't think it's like you know i don't think it's necessarily ego in a bad way i think it comes from like the fact that all of us have some insecurity that needs to be you know especially if you start a business young and especially if you feel like oh like wow i'm in this position like you have to be you either you're like incredibly confident somehow and like completely full of yourself but i genuinely believe that most of us have some insecurities about And so, like, it's all tied in.

[778] I don't think it's a bad thing.

[779] I don't think it's a bad thing.

[780] I don't think it makes you a bad person, as I said, I have it a lot.

[781] But I think you have to recognize it.

[782] And I think that's the first thing I'd say to I actually had a fellow founder messaged me like two days ago.

[783] And she was like, I just wanted to tell you what you told me about a year ago saying, like, everything, you know, she was at the stage where I was like, you need to be hiring people.

[784] And she was like, but it's expensive.

[785] And I was like, I know, but they will pay for themselves.

[786] Because, like, if you, you know, like even, not even necessarily the right people.

[787] like even if it's admin, even if it's like whatever, you should be doing the things that only you should, you can do, whether you're self -employed, whether you're like, whatever it might be.

[788] And, you know, like, my, my, like, I grew up with, like, my dad was self -employed, like, all of these things.

[789] And I think that you see your, like, there are so many different ways of working.

[790] And I was thinking, because I've seen people do things one way, like, I need to prove myself and I need to do that.

[791] Proving myself is more effective if I have a team of amazing people.

[792] And that's been like one of my biggest, biggest lessons.

[793] I asked you then what you're, you know, what you were really good at within the business.

[794] You talked about branding and marketing.

[795] So I'm going to ask you the opposite question.

[796] As the boss, as Grace Beverly, the CEO, what are you really bad at?

[797] Big silence.

[798] Anything.

[799] Careful.

[800] I think, I think there's probably like, like, we're going to bring in her PA now.

[801] Would you like to do?

[802] I think there are probably a lot of things.

[803] I think there's definitely, I think one of my things is the thing we've been talking about getting involved where I don't need to be involved.

[804] I think that's probably, you know, and I think I have an anxiety around that that actually, you know, there have been times where I haven't got involved where I probably should have because I was getting too confident with my moving away and then it just wasn't right and the product didn't shift enough or whatever it might have been.

[805] And so I think probably what, But that's one of my main things.

[806] And also only recently have I realized how much confidence I have to have in people.

[807] And I think it was actually, based on talking about how shitty some of Google's rules are, actually in work rules, the book about Google working culture, he says that one of the most important things at Google is that they encourage and empower everyone to be like their own founder.

[808] So like if they're on a project, like they should be founder of that project.

[809] And they should feel empowered to also like look at me and be like, no. Like this is not how it's like and like and I think that that stood with me so much because I was like you know what like the next day I emailed someone who was you know hiring someone within their team and they were like should we get them on this or this and I was like you decide like you know you decide you know you decide we get there I'm happy with you decide instantly saw that you know like because people also want to be empowered with that and also people often you know do much better when they're given the responsibility and so I think that some of that.

[810] what we've just been talking about is probably one of my biggest weaknesses because I'm so terrified that something will go wrong and obviously as the, you know, success as many fathers and like all of that, you know, all of that, like you have to take responsibility when it goes wrong.

[811] It doesn't matter whether it wasn't you, whatever it might be.

[812] I mean, something goes wrong, right?

[813] Yeah.

[814] With your brand, Grace Beverly is the one that they hold responsible.

[815] So in turn over here.

[816] But also something goes right.

[817] True.

[818] But in turn over here, says something, responds to a DM, whatever, you've got to almost justify that, even if, not even justify it, but it apologised.

[819] Yeah, and it's happened.

[820] It's happened multiple times.

[821] And I think that that's...

[822] How do you not then go to the intern and say, you motherfucker?

[823] Because I, I think if it was enough for me to do that, I think it would be much more gracious for me to just probably get rid of them, as in essentially to say, like, this is not the right place.

[824] Because it also, you know, there's an element of that that's not understanding the brand, that's not understanding who we are, our ethos or whatever.

[825] And if it's that far out of line, it's like, okay, well, this is a mismatch here then.

[826] But I think that, so my two options then, both of them involve, like, you know, being gracious in some way.

[827] And one of that is fixing it.

[828] If I genuinely believe that it was an honest mistake and it came across wrong or, like, whatever it might be, then fine.

[829] And I will work with them to deal with it.

[830] And I don't believe, you know, maybe someone will disagree, but I don't believe I have ever, ever, ever gone to someone and be like, how dare you?

[831] you've sacrificed this, like, you know, you've done all of that.

[832] Because also, they do the work every single day to make the company great.

[833] And yeah, it's frustrating.

[834] Like, trust me. Like, I don't see that and think, like, it's fine because last week they did a nice post or, like, whatever.

[835] But, like, there is still an element of it that's, like, frustrated and that's, like, feels like you've taken 10 sex back and is terrified that you're about to be canceled or, like, whatever it might be.

[836] But there's either a decision then to decide it's a mismatch or to decide it's still a match and it was an honest mistake.

[837] Neither of those involve, like, ripping someone to shreds.

[838] So how do you, do sometimes, though, when you do get, like, emotion and business, it's your baby, it's sometimes, you know, anger or, I don't know, frustrations.

[839] They do manifest themselves in business in certain ways.

[840] Like, I'd be lying if I said that I didn't have days where I was frustrated and people knew.

[841] I try not to be as much as I can.

[842] I try and remain a little bit calm, especially when it's most chaotic.

[843] Yeah, yeah.

[844] Especially in offices.

[845] I think that's particularly, like, we have the luxury now.

[846] I'm like, well, you can't see me. Like as in, you know, I think I often, like I think probably the near our office, the like cafes, they know me well because I will take myself, I will exit because I don't, I think in life and in business, I don't believe in, I don't think I necessarily react in that way naturally.

[847] And I think to my detriment sometimes because, you know, sometimes you do need to say, you know, this is absolutely not right.

[848] whatever, but I think it's the same thing as I kind of talked about before.

[849] Like, you know, I'd rather work out the best way to deal with it.

[850] There have been times where I've picked up the phone and I'd be like, what the fuck has gone wrong?

[851] Like, why would you do that?

[852] Like, this makes absolutely no sense.

[853] Like, this is, you know, you should know better, like all of that.

[854] And they are, first of all, they are very few and far between.

[855] I'm not saying that I don't say that to my housemates.

[856] I'm like, how fucking day?

[857] I don't understand why he would do that.

[858] Like, he knows that's not the case.

[859] But I would, I don't, I don't, I don't, I mean, you might disagree.

[860] I don't think I don't think I'd be like I'm not a She's looking at her peers She also is paid to say no But I genuine, I'm not a She's just suddenly a taxed here Yeah, but I'm not I don't think I'm the same in relationships, friendships, friendships, like everything I am a walk out of the rumour and come back in half an hour And at that point I'll leave the shout or I'll, you know But I'm not instantly kind of in that moment, which is why I sometimes also find social media hard because I don't want to react in the moment and social media warrants an instant reaction because that's the only way that you're being true to yourself or like whatever it might be.

[861] Like I often will think something, you know, when you're angry and you think something, you're so angry about it.

[862] And then half an hour later, I won't be or I'll think it's different or I'll think someone didn't mean that or whatever it might be.

[863] And so I try and even though social media doesn't necessarily allow for that amount of kind of like discussion, I do try and like, you know, just.

[864] Yeah.

[865] And that's kind of in general, how I deal with things.

[866] I go and spend some time by myself and if anyone talks to me. If you are to become the person you want to become, what does that person look like in terms of values, the way they conduct themselves, react to things?

[867] I think for me it's a lot of repositioning.

[868] As I said, like I think that I grew on social media at a time where I was particularly low and therefore like a lot of that was made up with validation.

[869] Therefore, like I think one of my.

[870] main aims and one of my main like work, what I've been working towards for the past, you know, year or so has been that kind of self -validation and that self -worth.

[871] And I think that through and through, you know, unfiltering self -worth is, I don't know whether it's even like a reality.

[872] Like I think people have faltering views of themselves, just like they do every other person.

[873] You can love someone absolutely unconditionally.

[874] And you can think in one moment like, yeah, Like, you know, why did they do that?

[875] Or, like, I think that's a terrible trait about them or whatever.

[876] And I think the important thing is being able to bounce back from that into the original position or being able to consider that and still have that worth or love or whatever.

[877] And I think, so I think to become the person who I want to be, I think it's, you know, I'm quite, you know, happy with where I am now.

[878] And I think there are, like, I know what I need to improve in terms of, like, and I think a lot of it comes down to my own confidence.

[879] and my own, like, assurance in myself in order not to project that elsewhere.

[880] So, yeah, like, in general, I think that's probably one of my main things, being completely honest.

[881] I don't think it involves, like, money or, like, growth in any other way.

[882] I think the first thing that I know that I need to improve on is that.

[883] How does one go about improving their self -validation?

[884] I would love to know.

[885] But I think in general it's just like it's an understanding of yourself, it's an understanding that you're going to fuck up, it's an understanding that you're going to think one thing and do another.

[886] And I think that part of that, as I say, that was part of the reason, you know, I did move away from social media because it was like, I can't have all these people telling me one thing, even if it's a great thing, because it doesn't allow you to be, like, completely in touch with yourself and know those differences.

[887] Yeah, exactly.

[888] Like, even if it's the people blowing smoke up your ass, like, you then can't get that from yourself because you're constantly, like, clouded by that.

[889] if it's people hating, it's the same thing.

[890] So I think that, like, I don't necessarily know.

[891] I think all it can be is being in touch with yourself and understanding that you are going to do things wrong.

[892] I think I'm very harsh on myself in the way that I don't like doing things wrong and I work very hard not to do things wrong.

[893] And so when I do, you know, it hits me hard.

[894] And I think that part of that is learning that...

[895] Does it hit you hard?

[896] Yeah.

[897] I think in general it really does.

[898] And I think that I, yeah, yeah, I think that that's kind of one of the things that you have to then develop that kind of self -love and all of that to be able to say, okay, great, well, like, you know, but I'm, as I've said, got this, like, Miss Trunchball living in my head who just wants one thing and one thing only, and it constantly changes and it's constantly more.

[899] And I think that's an important thing to address.

[900] Two things.

[901] The first one is Instagram.

[902] You kept Instagram.

[903] Yes.

[904] Why?

[905] I like Instagram in general, I think that, you know, I think one of the, one of the sad things that I found about kind of pivoting was that I loved what I got from things like YouTube in terms of like the community, as I say, that like I loved being able to share that.

[906] And I was at this really weird point where I loved sharing my life, but I also didn't like sharing my life because I like, you know, and it was, you know, there are bad things and good things about everything, but it was like the highs were really.

[907] really high and the lows were really low.

[908] And so it's kind of like toxic in that way.

[909] And I think that Instagram and Twitter probably both can be used in a way where you, I try and use it more as like a, you know, I post way more than like a regular non -instagramming, non -public high, whatever person would post.

[910] But I don't use it as a platform for anything other than just social media.

[911] Like if that, if that makes any sense at all.

[912] It's kind of, you know, it's pretty much my only platform, and I just, you know, I post as them when I want.

[913] I don't need to post.

[914] I don't need to come across a certain way.

[915] Because Instagram.

[916] I don't need to do stories at all one day, you know, like, whereas, yeah.

[917] Probably the most widely, there was a report out that said Instagram is probably the worst platform for mental health.

[918] Well, you can see why visuals, filtered visuals, unrealistic comparisons.

[919] Yeah, I think, I think I also thought that no matter what I didn't like or what I wanted to pivot to, I also owed it to myself to be able to celebrate my success in some ways.

[920] And I think that, you know, that however many messages I get from people saying, you know, I know you've moved off other platforms, but please don't delete Instagram because, you know, X, Y, Z, like whatever it might be.

[921] Like everyone has their people who really, not necessarily really need them, but really, really benefit from them.

[922] And I think that I also saw a lack of representation for women in the business space who also shout about it.

[923] And I think there's a reason for it.

[924] Like, I wouldn't encourage women to shout about it, not from a moral perspective, but because you will be ripped to shreds and because people will have preconceptions that are different from successful men.

[925] And, you know, whether that's showing material things or, like, whatever it might be.

[926] It's perceived as differently.

[927] And therefore, like, but I did think in that way that not only do I want to be able to do that, I also think that, you know, I think I'd like to do it also to make sure, you know, to be able to be in that.

[928] landscape and I think that I kind of owed it to myself also to be able to celebrate that even if I was moving away from that being my job I don't post it any way the same as I posted when that was my job I post very differently but you know it's I love it you got any sort of big regrets in your life that you've uh that might help others avoid making those same mistakes um I think I mean I think my it's it's the kind of same time thing again is once again it's just anything to do with allowing other people's perception allowing focus on other people's perception of you over your focus on your perception of yourself um but i don't think i'm not really like a as i've said much to my detriment and to my success i've you know i don't necessarily concentrate on don't maybe it's that toxic positivity thing you said or whatever i don't necessarily concentrate on those downfalls like i feel like everything that's gone wrong like we're not not getting into oxford the first time or whatever that led to me having a really great corporate job and i was able to make some money and i was able to make you know like work in e -com for a bit you know like all of those things and i think that i'm very like my pick yourself back up attitude is bad in some ways but the way it's good is also allowing you to not have many regrets because you always make something out of a bad thing and therefore it's really hard to look back and say that was shit because fine even if it's didn't lead to what you thought it would.

[929] Like I had, for example, I had my absolute dream job lined up for April and it got cancelled because of the pandemic.

[930] And, you know, I was very lucky to be in an industry that was largely unaffected and factions sometimes did really well.

[931] And I was so devastated about that.

[932] And like, maybe it will happen, maybe it won't.

[933] But like, you know, I think that that was something that couldn't be a regret, couldn't be whatever.

[934] But I also know that at this point, I've moved so much away from social media in that time that that probably would have put me on a, like, blasted me in a way that actually maybe I wouldn't have been able to deal with.

[935] And I think that, you know, kind of the world works in like mysterious ways.

[936] And like, maybe that wasn't right.

[937] And maybe I wouldn't say yes if I got that opportunity again.

[938] And I think that that actually just, yeah, I guess maybe it is a toxic positivity.

[939] Maybe it is like, maybe I should be, you know, I don't allow myself to be sad about those things when I maybe should be or I should address them.

[940] But I think part of that means that when I am asked about my regrets, I have kind of very little.

[941] That's good.

[942] I mean, regrets that come with their upsides, right?

[943] And the value and the lessons that they teach you.

[944] So it's hard sometimes.

[945] And I don't think it's bad to have regrets.

[946] I think acknowledging your regrets is really important to be able to move forward.

[947] Maybe I blog them out.

[948] I bet you can't wait for people to get your book, right?

[949] Yeah.

[950] Because it's a real labour of love, right?

[951] Yeah, I mean, I'm terrified at the same time.

[952] and I'm sure there are we some people.

[953] I think, well, I think you, it's the same as a business.

[954] If you pull that much love and your soul into something, if people hate it, they essentially hate you.

[955] Like, that's never nice.

[956] It doesn't matter whether you're about this or whatever.

[957] Like, it's not something you want.

[958] And I think that, I think also, as I say, there's a lot that I've put in there that I probably wouldn't have talked about online because it's, there's delayed feedback.

[959] There's, you know, I don't need to hear what someone thinks about that in that moment.

[960] And so I, you know, I'm excited and terrified.

[961] but, you know, and it's also very different.

[962] Like, it's different from what I've been doing.

[963] It's not entirely about business.

[964] It's not entirely about, you know, X, Y, Z. It's, it's different.

[965] Like, it's essentially another pivot in one way.

[966] And I think that, you know, I'm excited and equally, like, you know, I think about it.

[967] Like, for some reason, last night was one of the nights that I had kind of, like, constantly working on.

[968] I was like, what if people don't like this bit?

[969] And, like, what are people, you know?

[970] And I think that that's not something you control, can, troll and like i think the only way to guarantee not having that would be to write a blank book which i don't have much interest in and is that those worries because i'm because i'll be honest i don't have those worries yeah and i've spoken to other authors that you know when i talked about them being excited about their book coming out they also didn't express those worries so i'm wondering where those have come from maybe it's because i'm conditioned to having a constant feedback loop of you know whether on the businesses whether on my socials whatever it might be um or maybe it's because I'm more insecure about those feedback things.

[971] Like maybe it is, but I think that it's also, I care a lot.

[972] So, you know, I care a lot about it.

[973] I care a lot about my well -being.

[974] I care a lot about, you know, I and I feel like some of that, you know, is acknowledged that it's not necessarily even the right thing.

[975] Like I want to be able to write my truth and to write what I genuinely believe in.

[976] And for someone to say, I don't believe in that.

[977] And this kind of goes back to the battle we were just talking about there.

[978] So you said you wanted to be less sort of connected to people's feedback.

[979] Well, I write in the book, I write, you know, at the same time, like, there's, I don't, I don't, obviously it's completely irrational to want to be liked by everyone.

[980] And I don't want to be liked by everyone.

[981] But I think in the same way, everyone who is in the public eye and see something shit or whatever it might be, you know, as in, it's just, you know, it's the natural reaction.

[982] Like, you know.

[983] Yeah.

[984] So I think, but I'm very, very excited.

[985] And I think that the reaction so far to, you know, the concept, to the excerpts to everything has been amazing.

[986] And so I think that I should probably just be more excited about it.

[987] And yeah.

[988] You're a, you're a very inspired entrepreneur.

[989] I noticed this when I was going through your sort of your history over the last couple years.

[990] You've started several businesses.

[991] You've had several ideas within those businesses.

[992] And you seem like a constant stream of, ideas, right?

[993] I imagine that's also a problem.

[994] Yes.

[995] My early investors told me, they said they kept hitting me with this whip and saying, Steve, stop fucking emailing us with a new idea all the time.

[996] How have you made, how have you been able to distinguish between what's an idea worth pursuing and what's something?

[997] Because you could, you know, when you get a little bit of resource and you have teams of people, you could at any time be the CEO that's walking in every day and say, we're going to do a new thing.

[998] That can be unhelpful.

[999] I'm still guilty of it.

[1000] Yeah.

[1001] No, and I'm sure I am.

[1002] I'm sure I am.

[1003] How did you decide what to do you see?

[1004] I think I use our audience a lot.

[1005] I think that one of the real benefits of having a, you know, I'm Gen Z. So having a Gen Z -led brand for essentially, yeah, I'm the first year of Gen Z. I'm a millennial.

[1006] And I think one of the benefits is like everyone's constantly like, how do we market to Gen Z?

[1007] How do we do all of this?

[1008] And I'm definitely not like Gen Z. Like, don't ask me to do a TikTok dance.

[1009] But like I think that.

[1010] in that way I feed off our audience a lot.

[1011] Like, I know I'm not the most experienced at branding.

[1012] That doesn't mean I'm not the best at branding for our brand.

[1013] That means I'm not the most experienced.

[1014] So how can I use that in experience?

[1015] How can I leverage off people, you know, how can I, can I, I can just ask people sometimes.

[1016] Like, I can just say, like, would you be interested in this?

[1017] And I used to be like, no, because they can only see it.

[1018] The final thing.

[1019] And then sometimes people have said like, yes, yeah.

[1020] And then I've been like, actually know.

[1021] But I think it's instinct.

[1022] I think some of it's instinct.

[1023] I think the more you know your brand, the more you really, like, know your brand.

[1024] and I think that lots of the time, you know, it's an equal problem when other people have ideas and you're like, no, but I want you to have more ideas, but not that one.

[1025] And I think that, you know, it's just a constant learning process and I'm sure I've had, I have had ideas that have you know, that just haven't gone as well as they should have.

[1026] And I think that that's a constant thing.

[1027] I think in fashion especially, like you're going to have like a certain amount of things that don't sell as well as they should, like whatever it might be.

[1028] And that's just a constant reality.

[1029] So I don't think it's necessarily about always picking out the best ideas.

[1030] I think it's about picking out the right number of ideas, usually fewer, and executing them well.

[1031] And as we look forward to your future, I'm sure there's plenty more ideas to come.

[1032] Is there anything in the pipeline that one might be able to know about?

[1033] Well, actually, because I've started two businesses, the one question kind of press, everything always asks, is like, what's next?

[1034] What's the next business?

[1035] And there just really isn't going to be one.

[1036] a while.

[1037] I don't believe you.

[1038] And I kind of don't believe myself as well.

[1039] But I think currently I am so maxed out, I think, because I have two businesses, yeah, but I also have my personal brand.

[1040] So, you know, the books, the press, it is a business, you know.

[1041] And that's a lot.

[1042] If you think of the amount of days in the week.

[1043] So you're thinking like five days, I'm really strict on weekends.

[1044] So I hate to tell the hustle culture group, but I take weekends and I'm strict on them.

[1045] And so five days a week, split between technically three businesses.

[1046] That's already a lot of time blocking to establish what you spend your time on and where.

[1047] And bearing in mind that about, you know, 50 % of the, or not 50 % of the stuff I do will also be unexpected.

[1048] So I think that, as I've said, the kind of ethos I have about constantly, constantly pushing on and doing more, more, more is actually detrimental when it comes to doing things well.

[1049] And so I think that, you know, yeah, I've had ideas and nearly started multiple businesses, this time.

[1050] At one point, I even wanted to do like a mini essentially influence a VC of some form.

[1051] And like, but actually I want to prove to myself.

[1052] And I think I have and I think I can continue to do so.

[1053] I want to prove that I can do these well and I can have patience.

[1054] And it's not about more, more more because I think some of that comes from the fact that you know when things settle it's really easy to push for more when it's just a settling state and I constantly you know why can't I push for more within those businesses like each yeah exactly and growth and wider more breadth and everything and I think that that's part of my plan so it might not be new businesses but huge projects sometimes within a business sometimes take just as much as a new business and I think that yeah sure probably if my businesses were taken away from me tomorrow I'd probably have an excellent you know, like another one the next day and that's how I'm programmed and I'm thankful for that because, you know, that's definitely part of the reason why I've got to where I am.

[1055] But I also think that it's been a big lesson for me to learn that more is not always more.

[1056] Yes, that's the lesson that I also learned and I then started becoming a bit of a preacher to my friends who would brag about having five businesses and me saying one good one is much more impressive.

[1057] But that's the thing.

[1058] I would almost be people, as I've said, people would say about the end of when I was doing, you know, like all of these things.

[1059] And I think I recognized probably too late, but at some point I recognized that it wasn't about that.

[1060] And therefore, I kind of was almost embarrassed when people were like, she's got seven to two businesses.

[1061] Yeah, yeah.

[1062] Yeah.

[1063] You know, I'd rather have one that was doing really well.

[1064] I'm currently concentrated on two doing really well.

[1065] And a third one, which is my personal brand.

[1066] Which is just, yeah.

[1067] Yeah.

[1068] And then, you know, and that one will be the key to longevity.

[1069] for the rest of my career.

[1070] But so will these two if they're done right because you don't need longevity, you know, if that happens.

[1071] And so I think I'm lucky to be in a position where I have many different potential paths and the most productive thing I can do in that moment is to decide on the path and stick to it.

[1072] And I think it's fickle and I think that I can be fickle in like a hard work, you know, like diligent way because I just want to do more and quicker and like all of that.

[1073] But actually, the toughest thing I can do is just stand still and do it right.

[1074] And where does this end then for your businesses in your view?

[1075] Because when we're entrepreneurs, we kind of forecast, you know, five years time, I'll sell this or I'll do this or whatever.

[1076] I'll step away.

[1077] What's your thinking with your businesses?

[1078] I think it depends.

[1079] I think that like, for example, I often, I'll have a view.

[1080] I'll say, like, okay, well, I'll maybe aim to sell this one in two years and then this one I'll keep on, like, and I'll, you know, do that forever.

[1081] And I think that then it changes.

[1082] Then like, the other one starts to get really exciting and really profitable and you're like well maybe I'll keep this one for longer so I think that like I've got used to the fact that that's not you know there's probably not I've probably got used to the fact that actually there'll be a point where rather than saying okay in two years I'm going to do this it'll be like shit I'm done like I'm done and therefore and that's too late but I know it will be like that because I know I will push it to you know like the end or whatever it might be but I'm open.

[1083] I'm very open to it.

[1084] I think also I'm very much at the beginning of this like Shreddy four years old, Tala, not even two years old yet.

[1085] And I think that I'd be doing myself a disservice to kind of be, it's exactly what I would do.

[1086] Jump to the next.

[1087] When can I sell it?

[1088] When can I get all of this?

[1089] But especially because when you have a business, you kind of program to assume that by the time you've done this, you're officially, like you're no longer an extra.

[1090] You're no longer an entrepreneur you know you like sold a business for X or whatever and it is a success point it's a huge you know it's a huge accolade and I think that for me I it's just about constantly keeping in touch with myself and what I want and what I want for the businesses as well because I'm sure there'll be a point where I'm like I can't do that yeah like you know this needs X amount of funding or this actually needs to be acquired or whatever it will be I don't think it'll be soon but there might be a point you know and there probably will be a point that that happens or where you know we've grown hugely recently, I have a terrifying thought of like, what if it gets too corporate at one stage?

[1091] And then, you know, it's not a joy for me anymore.

[1092] And at that point, yeah, like, I'd very much consider that.

[1093] So I think it's very much like an open consideration constantly for me. And I think that the best thing I can do, again, is just not.

[1094] Yeah, not telling it too much now.

[1095] Yeah, exactly.

[1096] Have you managed to achieve balance in your life?

[1097] Well, this is the whole point of the book, I guess.

[1098] But, um, you don't need the book.

[1099] This is right.

[1100] I think I think I'm doing well at the moment.

[1101] I think I wasn't doing well this time a year ago.

[1102] I think that I am probably doing well, you know, because, for example, like, as I've talked about, like I'm not in a relationship, so maybe like that would throw it all off or whatever it might be.

[1103] I think at the moment I'm doing it well and probably too much of a focus on work, but that's what balance looks like to me at the moment.

[1104] it's not 50 -50 it's not like a tipping set of scales it's like sure are you happy this is what's added up yeah I'm definitely happy I think I'm I think I'm particularly happy at the moment because I feel like I'm somehow simultaneously living my early 20s life whilst also being you know being in this amazing position and that for me that was the main thing I wanted because I just was you know this more more more more thing was like you don't need to be acting like you're 40 like you you know and so I've really tried to maintain that even though it's strange for me to be in my position and living with three of my friends in my house or whatever it might be.

[1105] I feel like I'm having that and I feel like that's that was a real, you know, that was a big thing for me and I'm, you know, happy that it doesn't necessarily have to be that I'm in like some sick high -rise apartment by myself with like expos or whatever.

[1106] And that for me is my happiness.

[1107] Thank you.

[1108] It's been wonderful speaking to you.

[1109] I find you so inspiring and, you know, a wise head on shoulders, whatever, but you, like, really, really are.

[1110] Oh, thank you.

[1111] Well, you are.

[1112] No, but you, like, really are.

[1113] Like, you're 23.

[1114] I remember when I was 23, I was still largely an idiot, an idiot.

[1115] And you seem to have figured out, you know, no, I know, but it's like the level of, I'd say self -awareness, right?

[1116] And I can see as you're speaking in the way that you answer questions, you're also really, you're really trying to appreciate nuance.

[1117] That's something it took me a long time to do, right?

[1118] So I thought the world was the way I saw it.

[1119] If you don't work hard, then you are inferior.

[1120] Yeah.

[1121] right?

[1122] And then, but I can see you're being very considered in how you speak and appreciating nuance.

[1123] And I think that's the trait of someone that's, that's a bit had their life accelerated in the public eye or through, you know, pressure of running businesses, but just someone that has a very wise head on their shoulders.

[1124] And you're inspiring as hell.

[1125] Thank you.

[1126] And you're a lovely human being.

[1127] So I want to thank you for coming here today and giving me your time.

[1128] And when can we buy your book?

[1129] April.

[1130] I know it's out.

[1131] We can pre -order now.

[1132] 14th.

[1133] 15th.

[1134] Thank you.

[1135] Let's see.

[1136] April the 15th, yeah I know mine is March so you can pre -order now 20 something Oh yeah Well pre -order is Don, when is my book map 25th of March We'll cut it so it looks like I've got it right first time I'll publish it yet You can pre -order both now Maybe so many people will pre -order the same ones That you know when Amazon assigns like a specific bundle People who yeah Yeah exactly They're like you can get these two together for this I think that's the aim from this go and check it out because i've i know how much you put into it personally and sometimes i sit down with people and i know they had some ghosts right i create the whole thing but speaking to you on and off camera i know how much you've poured into it and when when people do that i think they create really remarkable pieces of work and unique thoughts so thanks again for coming on you're a really really special person and i'm i'm so honored to have you here thanks thank you