#864 - Kevin Ross & Gaston Bolanos

[0] We're live.

[1] What's up?

[2] What's up, boy.

[3] Boys.

[4] So nice to have you guys on, man. It's nice, first of all, to, it's nice to have you guys in studio, but it's nice to have Muay, which I've been a giant fan of for so long.

[5] I feel like it's starting to get more ground in America, and we've done our best to try to promote it as much as possible on here.

[6] And it's been frustrating for the longest time for me watching what I think is like one of the most exciting combat sports in the world, and it sort of kind of slip under the radar.

[7] Yeah, man. When golf is taken off.

[8] Fucking golf's everywhere.

[9] They had a scrabble on ESPN one time, and that was just gut -wrenching.

[10] They had scrabble?

[11] Yeah.

[12] Well, it is a sport.

[13] It's a lot of training involved.

[14] Hey, man. It's brutal.

[15] But to see that, and then to see us just with nothing, no coverage whatsoever for so long, and, you know, it's finally on TV, but still relatively under the radar.

[16] It's tough to watch.

[17] but knowing that it's going to be there eventually, it's just a matter of time, you know.

[18] So it's nice.

[19] Every time we take another step, like when it got on Access TV, it was such a giant leap compared to where it was prior to that.

[20] So what's coming next?

[21] What's coming next?

[22] It's just a matter of time and the right people coming along doing the right things.

[23] One can only hope.

[24] We talked about this today, but that Dana White had a point that I think he's probably right about, is that in a lot of people's eyes in America, kickboxing got kind of poisoned.

[25] and with that whole PKK karate stuff that was on in like the 80s or the 90s.

[26] Yeah, I put a bad taste in people's mouth.

[27] So it's hard to break free from that mentality of you think kickboxing, you think Mutai, you think pants fighting.

[28] Yes, yeah, I remember...

[29] And the shoes and everything.

[30] The shoes, the buddies.

[31] Everybody thinks, oh, you do that thing with the pants and the shoes, you know?

[32] I took a buddy mine who was a, he's a producer of Fear Factor, actually, my friend David.

[33] I took him to some Muay fights in Burbank.

[34] This is a local show that was at some hotel.

[35] They just had a ballroom And this was back when God, who the fuck was fighting on that card I'll remember, I'll remember But some good names, some really good fighters This was like back of 2001, 2002 And he had never seen Like Muay before He really had no idea what to expect And he was like Oh when they kicked the legs It makes a big difference I was like yeah it makes a fucking huge difference Well every time you have to Somebody asks you so what's Muay Right.

[36] I feel so, I really dislike when I have to sit.

[37] It's like kickboxing with elbows and knees.

[38] Like, I died a little bit inside every time I have to say that.

[39] It's a matter of how long you want to sit there and talk to this person.

[40] Because you can be like, no, it's actually this, this, that.

[41] So sometimes it's like, is it like kickboxing?

[42] Yeah, see you later.

[43] With elbows and knees.

[44] You're late at, like.

[45] It's hard to explain it, you know.

[46] It looks the same when you're looking at it.

[47] Like, if you're watching Glory, it looks the same.

[48] You know, and then when people talk about, like, I've had people over watching the fights.

[49] They go, wait a minute.

[50] This isn't Muay Thai.

[51] Well, it's similar.

[52] Real close.

[53] It's like on the door.

[54] It's like the difference between American football and rugby.

[55] Like they're similar.

[56] They're running.

[57] There's a ball.

[58] Yeah.

[59] But they're not the same whatsoever.

[60] They're two different sports.

[61] Is it that dissimilar?

[62] I think it is.

[63] Yeah.

[64] Because it's a completely different pace.

[65] It's a completely different mentality.

[66] Yeah, you're limited on just a few weapons, which seems very minor.

[67] But unless you fight it, unless you do it, it's night and day.

[68] It's night and day.

[69] Well, I would imagine that it would make, there would be a big adjustment.

[70] And for people that are listening, they don't know what we're talking about.

[71] Kickboxing, if you watch, like, Glory or now Bellator is having kickboxing as well.

[72] And, of course, K -1 was really the first one to start it on a global scale and make these big, gigantic events over in Japan.

[73] Kickboxing does not allow the use of elbows or knees and a very limited amount of clinching.

[74] Yeah.

[75] Whereas in Muay, especially in Thailand, you see a tremendous amount of clinching, and it's very technical.

[76] There's a lot going on in that clinching.

[77] And I've always maintained, I've been a big fan of Lion Fight because what Lion Fight is doing is giving you the actual pure Muay Thai, you know, other than the dancing and the music and all the stuff that happens before, you know, in a traditional Muay fight.

[78] Yeah, they're doing a really good job.

[79] And as you said, they've had to limit a few of the things in order to get it out there to the general public, which it's unfortunate.

[80] You can't just, you can't just like throw it out there in people's faces with all the culture and the tradition.

[81] is particularly here in America, you know, people will turn away from it so fast.

[82] So I think at some point we'll be able to build up to that.

[83] You know, if you start slowly educating people on what that is and the history and everything and hopefully eventually we won't get so far away from that, that Muay Thai does become kickboxing because we've taken so much from it, you know.

[84] And for people who don't know what we're talking about again, the dance that you do, the warm -up dance before a Muay Thai match called Y -Crew, right?

[85] And how long does that usually take?

[86] it depends really um you know different gyms uh different people do do do longer and shorter ones you know i do a very limited uh shorter one uh when i fight well i haven't done it in forever but but because of that you know and knowing that people aren't don't want to really want to see it you know you kind um americanize it and shorten it where some of them i've seen some i've seen some longer uh white crews than uh than fights in the past yeah yeah yeah what's a long one Five minutes?

[87] Five minutes?

[88] Really?

[89] I don't know if that long.

[90] Borkout has like one of the longest ones I've seen.

[91] Like he takes his sweet time, you know, goes down, does everything like perfectly.

[92] It's like a whole routine.

[93] But then in those situations, like people are very educated and they want to see that.

[94] They want to see the beauty of it.

[95] It almost becomes part of the entertainment, part of the fight, besides the fight itself, you know?

[96] But when you go see a professional Maitai match, I would estimate that like 50 % of the crowd trains.

[97] They're very educated.

[98] in what it is.

[99] You know, it's like baseball here in America where you don't have to play baseball in order to appreciate and love it because it's our pastime.

[100] And that's what it is in Thailand.

[101] Not everyone there is actively training or fighting or has fought, but it's so embedded in their culture that they just love it and they appreciate it.

[102] Everything about it.

[103] So to go to a live multi -fight in Thailand is just, you can't even describe it.

[104] I could only imagine, it's on my bucket list for sure.

[105] But in America, if you go to see a live event in America, Half of the audience, at least, is either people from the gym or people that know people from the gym.

[106] Yeah.

[107] And it's sort of almost an incestuous kind of an environment.

[108] Yeah.

[109] Especially, like when I was coming up, the only people that were there trained were family or friends of the people fighting, you know, so that you weren't hitting this wider audience.

[110] You know, where now it is getting on TV, and there are people seeing it who don't know anything about it.

[111] And it's slowly building momentum and getting out there and getting a little more popular.

[112] but it's just one of those sports where, you know, it's not for everybody, and you've got to find the way to bring it to everyone.

[113] You know, it doesn't have this mass appeal.

[114] The fight in itself does.

[115] But everything that goes with it is very, it's different.

[116] It's very traditional.

[117] The Thai style, and then the music is very traditional, and it's for a lot of people, for whatever reason, they just don't have an open mind.

[118] They don't want to accept that.

[119] Yeah.

[120] It's strange.

[121] And like we were saying, you know, watching it live, compared to watching on TV is like two different things.

[122] Yeah.

[123] Yeah, there's nothing like it.

[124] Even for me, I'll watch it on TV and then I'll be there in person.

[125] I'm like, geez, man. Like, why do people do this?

[126] Oh, yeah, yeah, I do this too.

[127] But it's within any combat sport.

[128] When you're there live, you can feel it.

[129] You feel the energy in the air.

[130] You feel the impact.

[131] Yeah.

[132] As opposed to watching it on TV, which is still great, but nothing compares to being there in person, particularly Mutai.

[133] It's just brutal.

[134] Yeah, I agree.

[135] And there's something about it.

[136] When you're not hearing any commentary, you're just literally feeling the slap of the shins.

[137] Yeah, yeah.

[138] Yeah.

[139] Bone to bone.

[140] It just makes me cringe.

[141] I was in L .A. a couple years back when they had that big pro -moy Thai event.

[142] They had a lot of big -name fighters fight, and Bukau fought, and he apparently had some beef with some dude that he was going to fight, and there was a lot of shit talk back and forth.

[143] So he had this long Y crew where he was shooting arrows at him.

[144] Yeah, yeah.

[145] You remember that?

[146] Yeah.

[147] That was the NPL, right?

[148] Yes.

[149] Yes.

[150] Yeah.

[151] Yeah.

[152] Yeah, what happened to that organization?

[153] Same thing that happens to a lot of organizations.

[154] They try to go too hard out the gate.

[155] They pay all this money for all these super high -level fighters, which, you know, your Muay fans are going to know who they are, but your general public has no idea, and that's who we're trying to reach, is the people that don't know anything about it.

[156] So those people aren't going to come out just because there's this high -level Muay guy.

[157] They don't know who this is.

[158] They don't know anything about them.

[159] They'd be more likely to come out to a local, person because at least like hey that guy fights out of California or whatever and and that's been the biggest thing that's slowed slow the multi down is these promotions try to go too hard out the gate as opposed to building it up with which you know you got to lose a lot of money and build these people with anything you got to start slows and build people gradually build the promotion build the fighters build your audience and eventually you can get to that level where where everyone in the card is like top 10 people but you can't do that from the beginning when you were just trying to grow and build Yeah, I remember I went to the event and Larry Merchant was there.

[160] Remember the boxing guy, Larry Merchant was there.

[161] A lot of people were there.

[162] Nesto Hoost was doing commentary.

[163] And I was like, wow, maybe this is going to work.

[164] You know, it seems like these guys have got it.

[165] Too big, too fast, you know, too many big names right away.

[166] I'm pretty sure they ran out of money by the second or third show.

[167] It just didn't work out.

[168] And that's where a lion fight has been doing like really good job at, like, growing their talent and trying to get better.

[169] And like every show, they're putting really good fights and really good.

[170] matchups with guys from around here yeah yeah well the the matchups and the talent level is very high it's it's it's way higher than the the the credit it's getting yeah it's like uh you know i watch i have uh dvr in my gym i've got i mean what what number are they up to now like 30 something 32 32 i've got way back to like 21 or something just saved up yeah and i can watch them all while i train and it's um there's such high level there's so much good fights you know he's There's so many good guys.

[171] It's so exciting, and it's such a dynamic, technical sport.

[172] And that's one of the things I think is probably, it probably slips by some people when the casual observer is watching it.

[173] Just some of the stuff that we were doing today, where you were showing me just a little shifts and variations and stances and little things like that.

[174] And that's, you know, I think that's when you train in it, when you try it, it makes the experience of watching people compete in it richer.

[175] Yeah.

[176] Because you kind of understand.

[177] You're like, wow, this is like very complex.

[178] There's a lot going on here.

[179] It's not just guys going, ah, and just trying to fucking kick each other.

[180] Yeah.

[181] And there's so many levels to this, and your casual fan isn't going to know that.

[182] And a big problem a lot of promotions make is they try to cut corners and put guys out there who aren't very good.

[183] But both those guys are at the same level.

[184] So if you're average person, they're like, well, they're kicking and punching each other.

[185] so, but they might be very, very low level, but they just wanted to get some cheap people they could put on the air, you know, so they'll, they'll take all these, cut all these corners just, just to save some money, but at the end it hurts everybody because you're putting crappy fights out there, you know what I mean, not good matchups, not very talented guys because you want to save some money, or they'll spend so much money on like the main event and the co -main event that they have to, you know, cut those corners with everybody else.

[186] And so you're putting these crappy fights out there, you're trying to bring this new audience in so people come and like this is terrible like why would I want to come to this you know because because they're bad matchups and and as we were talking about line fight what they did from the beginning was they had quality matchups throughout the entire card whether it was the main event whether it was the undercard whether it was the amateurs they're good exciting matchups regardless of the level and that's what really helped build them up now now how long have you been uh fighting in moitai now I started when that was 10 back in Lima peru and how old are you now 24 yeah um I think think it's really interesting you were telling me today we were talking about your training partner uh...

[187] mazetti what's his first name again gabriel yeah who's who just fought this past weekend a lion fight you watch him fucking sensational holy shit is that kid dynamic and his brother is like bigger older and like more even like more aggressive me that's incredible he's a lot he's a lot bigger yeah what what was what's going on in peru like man my my my my first coach rodrigo you know he he had a vision of the sport you know when when he first started he came here to train with Alex Gong at Ferdex San Francisco you know it was very small but he went back and I remember I started training with him and it was everything was so small back then like the amount of talent there is now like I mean Kevin and Kieran saw it when we went to Peru last November Karyin's hiding in the corner over there he's here but he's not here yeah I mean there was like he was supposed to be on cameras there was 150 fighters in the national tournament last November when me and Kevin were were fighting and it's crazy like the amount of talent and how much is growing I mean, Peru is definitely going to be a powerhouse in the future.

[188] Is it because of one coach?

[189] Is it just, has the country embraced it?

[190] Is it taken off in popularity?

[191] It's getting a little more popular, but like I said, Rodrigo really helped, you know, help.

[192] He got together with the government, you know, so they could start helping out and bring guys out to IFMA and everything.

[193] And it's just crazy.

[194] Like, all these kids are really, like 16, 17, 18, 19 years old, really good kids.

[195] It's just fascinating that that one part of the world is starting to produce a lot of really high -level talent, and then talking to you about it, you know, you were saying that it's like soccer, and then Muay Thai is like really like coming up in popularity behind soccer, which sounds crazy to me. Yeah, yeah, I mean, and then our soccer team sucks, so everybody's starting to turn to Muay so it's really cool to see.

[196] It's really cool to watch.

[197] That is really fascinating.

[198] You know, Muay Thai is the predominant striking art in MMA.

[199] You know, it's the most, I would say probably the most successful striking art in MMA.

[200] Because it has all the elements of boxing and, you know, a lot of the elements of a lot of the other traditional martial arts.

[201] But there's something about the combination of kicks and elbows and the technical style of Maitai that really lends itself to MMA.

[202] And I think when Mory Smith came along, like Mory Smith was probably the first guy who was like a really high level technical striker who gave MMA a try.

[203] and was showing everybody the effectiveness of Muay Thai in MMA.

[204] But for whatever reason, it translated to Maitai getting more popular in MMA, but it didn't necessarily translate to Maitai getting that much more popular.

[205] Yeah.

[206] Yeah, it's one of those things that with the MMA, it kind of helps and it hurts.

[207] Like it helps in the sense that it gets it out there, but it can hurt as well when you're getting a bad representation of the sport you do.

[208] So for a good stand -up striker in MMA, they might not be that great when it comes to real Muitai, you know.

[209] So you're saying, hey, this guy's got really great stand -up.

[210] Well, he has really great stand -up for M -MMA.

[211] So people assume that's what good stand -up looks like in Muitai, or traditional stand -up art. You know, so it's the pros and cons of it getting out there.

[212] So it's tough.

[213] You know, everything kind of helps as well as takes away from the sport, too.

[214] Well, I think all martial arts make an adjustment.

[215] They have to make a technical adjustment when they're being applied to MMA because you have to deal with the takedowns.

[216] You have to deal with all the day.

[217] And even wrestling and judo had to make adjustments for Muay Thai because as soon as you involve leg kicks and then knees, you know, a lot of guys were shooting for takedowns and they're getting need to face.

[218] Like that cyborg, Michael Page fight, crazy knockout where his whole head got crushed from that knee.

[219] Yeah, he had to have surgery and everything.

[220] Yeah, I mean, he's got, literally had to have his skull put back together again.

[221] It was the most brutal injury is I've ever, have you ever seen one of those before?

[222] Have you ever seen a skull get crushed?

[223] No, I actually had my skull fractured, but not like that.

[224] That was one of the worst things I've ever seen.

[225] How did your skull get?

[226] I got kicked in the back of the head, and the guy had a steel plate in his shin guard in China.

[227] What?

[228] In his shin guard?

[229] Yeah.

[230] So he had a shin guard on with a steel plate in it.

[231] Yeah, I mean, I didn't really think anything of it at the time.

[232] You know, this was, what, like 10 years ago, you know, we would just fight everywhere, anywhere, anywhere, or whatever, you know, and not really think twice about it.

[233] And I, so I fought, he kicked me in the back of the head.

[234] I got dropped, got up, ended up knocking him out, fought again the very next day.

[235] What?

[236] Yeah, knock this guy out, too.

[237] And then when we got back to the States, like, I was having headaches all the time.

[238] And I just thought I had a bad concussion, you know, but, like, up to, like, almost like a month later, I can't.

[239] kept seeing these like flashes of light anytime someone would ever touch me you know i'd be working with like little kids or girls and smaller people and just them touching me i'd get this like jolt and it you know it was kind of freaking me out and i uh i was getting ready for another fight and uh i had to get uh my MRI or a cat scan i remember what it was and they're like yeah you got an inch and a half crack in the back of your skull and they're like i don't know why you're not a vegetable right now you should be they're like if you even hit that again you it would probably kill you doctors always say that though yeah of course yeah when's the last time you're if i get knocked out one more time i'm dead yeah you know if it was one inch closer to my spine i'd be dead it was it was it was it was it was pretty a rough thing to happen and and i couldn't do anything other than hit the bag by myself for i don't remember how long it was to like let it heal but but it was so it just essentially had a close yeah on its own you know just like don't get hit wow don't get hit and i was getting ready for a fight and i actually stopped tried to fight anyway, but the doctor who diagnosed it was the doctor for the fights.

[240] Oh, that's hilarious.

[241] He was like, dude, you can't fight.

[242] Get out of here.

[243] How long after that was the fight?

[244] After the diagnosis?

[245] Like a week.

[246] Why didn't he try to fight with a fucking inchie?

[247] You told you you could die.

[248] That's just kind of the mentality I had coming up, you know.

[249] How old were you at the time?

[250] 25.

[251] So he just felt invulnerable?

[252] No, not really.

[253] I mean, my mentality from the beginning has always been, I'm going to fight as long as I'm breathing.

[254] And, you know, I've gone into fights with some of the worst injuries ever, broken hands, broken skulls, broken faces.

[255] And that's just the way I came up.

[256] You know, like, you're going to fight no matter what.

[257] You're going to fight anyone, anywhere, any time, any weight class.

[258] And that's how I was able to get as much experience as I did.

[259] Karian's nodding back there.

[260] It's like, yeah, fight.

[261] You know.

[262] Fight good.

[263] it's just it was the mentality we had coming up you know this was at a time when you know YouTube wasn't even out yet like nobody knew what Muita was it was like you got to be ready to fight all the time or else you're never going to get any fights right you know where now it's like everyone's kind of like looking for the big show or oh picking their fights like a month like a month is short notice for people where us was like an hour it's like yeah we're ready we're here fight let's go you know and it's just it the time I came up was a different mindset than it is today and that's kind of the pros and cons of it getting bigger is the bigger things get you got to take the kind of like faker people with it where when when i started and i was at fights is like you knew every person that was at that fight was a diehard moitai fan there's no other reason to do this other than the fact that you loved it you're losing money there was no there was no show to get on there was no television to go on there was there was no reason to do this sport except for the fact that you loved it there wasn't a question like there's no reason to do this this, except for you love it with everything that's in you.

[264] So everyone you met, everyone you talked to, every gym you went to, every fight you went to, you were surrounded by people that had the same heart and mentality as you.

[265] Whereas now, you know, people are doing it for different reasons, you know, that maybe they want to get famous or they want to get Instagram followers or, you know, they want to look cool doing padwork, and that's kind of the good and the bad of things getting bigger.

[266] So you think that by the sport getting more popular, by more people paying attention to it, It opens up the door to more people doing it, but they just don't have the pure intention.

[267] Of course.

[268] And that kind of waters down the sport at the end.

[269] It's interesting because there's got to be, there's a line, right, between like where it's intelligent to fight injured.

[270] Yeah, of course.

[271] Like with your broken head.

[272] Yeah.

[273] I would never tell anyone to do what I did.

[274] Would you think you would be in the same situation today, or would you go well with weight age and wisdom?

[275] I'm not going to fight with a broken head.

[276] Me personally, but fortunately I have good people around me who would be like, look, that's not smart.

[277] Right.

[278] I'm like, yeah, yeah, you're right.

[279] You know, and again, it was in a time where if I don't take this fight, who knows when another fight's going to come along.

[280] You know, you've got to take what you can get when you can get it.

[281] And that's when I'm, like, fighting people who weigh me by 30 pounds and, you know, just taking a fight on a couple hours notice because you got to, there wasn't opportunities.

[282] So you got to do what you had to do to get in there.

[283] And you had to get experience.

[284] and that was the only way you were going to get fights, you know.

[285] Was it difficult to motivate yourself during those times?

[286] Because for a lot of people, motivation requires some sort of an end goal.

[287] Not so much about, it was more about getting fights than it was about, what am I getting out of this fight?

[288] So it wasn't about making money, it wasn't about getting on TV, but there was a long period of time when I just couldn't get a fight to save my life.

[289] And that's when I was highly considering switching over to MMA because everyone on training was fighting, they're fighting.

[290] in the UFC, they're getting fights all the time, they're fighting every month, and I'm sitting here busting my ass, and I can only get a fight or two a year.

[291] You know, there was a time I had over 30 fights fall through that I was training for and preparing myself for it, and then they'd fall through, and they'd fall through, and they'd fall through, and that's why I started just taking a boxing fight, even though I'd never trained boxing in my life, or taking a Sancho fight, that one in China was a Sancho fight, because I just had to do what I had to do to stay busy, or taking a fight on a day's notice, or fighting with a crack skull, because I knew I had to stay in there and stay active and stay busy or else I'm never going to get better, especially if I want to compete with guys who have like 400 fights and been fighting since they were 8 years old.

[292] You know, how are you going to fight against the guy like that if you don't get the experience?

[293] You have so much to make up for it anyway.

[294] I didn't start until I was 23.

[295] You know what I mean?

[296] I'm so late to the game.

[297] My mentality was always, I'm always going to be playing catch -up.

[298] No matter how good I get, I'm playing catch -up.

[299] And so I've got to do everything I can, every way I can.

[300] Maybe it wasn't the smartest thing, but I wouldn't be where I am today if I didn't take those risks and maybe take those not -so -smart fights.

[301] But yeah, there is a fine line between putting yourself out there and being dangerous, but I don't know where that line is.

[302] Yeah, I don't think anybody does, right?

[303] So that, for me, it was up for everybody.

[304] So I was always on the, I'm like, I'm just going to do it no matter what.

[305] Because where do you draw the line?

[306] You stub your toe and, like, you're limping a little bit, should you not fight?

[307] I don't know, maybe.

[308] But I'm going to do it.

[309] Yeah, do you, when you say you started 23, was that when you started competing?

[310] That was the first time I stepped foot in the gym.

[311] You were 23.

[312] No training at all in martial arts before that?

[313] Zero.

[314] What motivated you to get in there?

[315] Well, the first time I ever saw Muay was like 94, 94 or 96.

[316] They went back when ESPN used to play them late at night, like the old school fights.

[317] And I'd always thought about boxing and doing some kind of fighting.

[318] But I always lived martial arts, you know.

[319] And when I saw Muay, I was like, that's it, man. Because every other kind of thing with, like, kicking and knees was like Taekwondo or.

[320] or point -fighting and not that real boxing style of hardcore fighting, you know.

[321] So when I saw Muayt, I was like, if I'm going to do anything, that's going to be it.

[322] But unfortunately, at that time, I was too busy living in Vegas and drinking myself to death every day and partying, you know.

[323] And it was never one of those serious things.

[324] So I never told anybody about it.

[325] I was never, because I didn't even know how serious I was.

[326] Because obviously I couldn't do it, live the way I was living and compete.

[327] So I knew that if I was ever going to do this, I would have to completely stop drinking, party, and living the lifestyle I was living.

[328] And I wasn't ready to give that up.

[329] You know, I wasn't ready to give up my friends and lose all these people.

[330] Not to say that I would, but I knew that was a possibility.

[331] And I only ever told one of my friends about it.

[332] His name was Mo. And, you know, I always figured people would laugh at me if I told them I want to be a fighter one day.

[333] If you knew me back then, you probably would laugh at me too.

[334] You know, like, what are you talking about, man?

[335] Like, you drink every single day.

[336] All you do is party.

[337] And I told him, and to my surprise, he didn't have to me at all.

[338] He's like, I don't know, why don't you?

[339] Why don't you go after it?

[340] And I was like, well, I'm like, I was only like 18 at the time.

[341] And at that point, I thought it was way too old to start.

[342] I'm like, I can't start now.

[343] I can't start now and make it anywhere.

[344] You know what I mean?

[345] These people start when they're like 10.

[346] It's too late for me. He's like, you should do it anyway.

[347] You know, like, if you want to do something, you can do it.

[348] And he was born with a bad.

[349] hard and he ended up passing away um and i promised myself when he died that i would do it i was like i'm gonna go after this dream um if not for myself then for him because he he was never able to live you know and unfortunately his death sent me just in a really bad downward spiral even more so than i was already in drinking and partying and all that stuff and this continued on for years and years and through a month -long series of really horrible things happening like friends dying or almost killing people drunk driving and myself getting pulled over doing like 120 on the 215 in Vegas and for whatever reason the cop let me go and that was just all these things happening was this huge wake -up call for me and I realized that if my friend was still alive he would beat the shit out of me you know he's like well you're wasting your life you're wasting this dream you have because you're too scared to do it.

[350] But this dream, you mean, you would never even step foot in a gym.

[351] So this is like a dream of you one day attempting to learn something.

[352] Right.

[353] That's a very crazy thing because it was always hanging over your head then.

[354] Yeah.

[355] And again, it was that thing where I'm not going to be able to get anywhere in this, but I finally realize that where I get to isn't what matters.

[356] Like how good I can get doesn't matter.

[357] me giving myself all of myself to this sport and dedicating myself to this is what really matters how where i make it to i don't know where i could make it to i could be the best in the world or the worst in the world but as long as i'm putting myself out there why is that more important why is it why is the most thing important to put everything you have into it i i've just always believed if you're going to do something it's all or nothing you know um i never wanted to half ass it and that's why i knew if i was going to do this i'd have to give up partying and drinking and hanging out with my friends and going out all the time and I wasn't ready to do that you know I I've always been in that mentality of if you're going to do something do it you do it all the way you don't do it at all because you're sabotaging yourself and then you can just say oh I didn't make it because of this that and the other right but why was it so what what were you getting out of it when you when you realized that it wasn't really about how good you get or how far you go it was about giving it everything you have A lot of it had to do with seeing my friend pass away at 18, you know, I'm like, there's no reason to ever halfway do something because there's people who don't get the opportunity to even attempt to go after these things because of whatever reason.

[358] They might die.

[359] They might have a disease.

[360] They might, you know, not have all their legs, you know, and you can do this.

[361] Maybe you can't be the great, but you can do this.

[362] You can at least attempt this.

[363] And you owe it to yourself and you owe it to them to give it everything that you.

[364] have i always felt like i owed him everything to go after my life with everything i have all my dreams i need to go after 100 % because there's people that don't get to i'm asking this because i think this is a common theme with people is that when they're pursuing a dream or when they're attempting to do something they realize somewhere along the line that you're doing something more than just like trying to get really good at moitai or whatever you know fill in the blank with whatever sport it is you're the expression I was used is that martial arts are a vehicle for developing your human potential and I think that until you have a really difficult task in front of you like becoming a professional multi -fighter which is one of the most difficult tasks in all combat sports until you have that task in front of you until you go down that road and realize how much is actually required of you you don't know how much you can give to something and once you do realize how much you're capable of giving you something and then you can give a little more and then you give a little more, and then you realize, like, did I give my all?

[365] Did I, did I watch what I ate?

[366] Did I sleep enough?

[367] Did I do, did I think about things the right way?

[368] Did I get anxious when I shouldn't have?

[369] Did I, did I keep my mind clean?

[370] You know, what was I doing wrong?

[371] What was I doing right?

[372] How can I improve?

[373] And then it's sort of, it trickles over into your life.

[374] Yeah.

[375] Yeah.

[376] Well, in the beginning, as I said, for me, it's always been all or nothing.

[377] You know, I didn't realize that at the time, but looking back, I can kind of understand the mentality behind it is, There's so many things that are going to come up that will deter you from going after.

[378] Maybe you get injured or maybe you're not getting the opportunities.

[379] And if you're not in it 100%, those things are going to steer you away.

[380] Those things are going to make you quit.

[381] It's that people kind of look at people who have made it as if they just had this easy path.

[382] And all of a sudden, they're in the spotlight and they're a world champion and doing these things.

[383] But it's like any person who's made it to a high level, whether it's an athlete or a business person, And if you go back in their life and see the things they've had to do and overcome and the obstacles in their way, you have no idea.

[384] And that's why everyone's like, well, they didn't have to deal with this or they didn't have to deal with this.

[385] You don't know what they had to deal with.

[386] You don't see the obstacles.

[387] Isn't that always a problem when you watch you something kind of condensed to one performance?

[388] Of course.

[389] If you watch Gabriel go out the other night, you look at him, he's 19 years old.

[390] He destroys that guy.

[391] What was the guy's name Josh?

[392] Josh Shepherd, who was a really talented fighter himself, goes out and destroys this guy in the first round.

[393] Like, well, how hard could he have worked?

[394] He's fucking 19.

[395] Dude, he's a young kid.

[396] I was training that kid.

[397] I mean, Kieran and I were training that kid, and I was, like, running him to the ground every single day.

[398] I mean, he's really good.

[399] He's really talented already, but I was like, you're in this position right now.

[400] This is where you're going to do, and we're going to work really hard, you know?

[401] And I dedicated myself to him throughout his camp, too.

[402] I mean, we're training together when I was fighting for my World Title fight, and then he just kept training and going.

[403] He's trained, like, three months for that fight, and that's why he looked so good.

[404] good he dedicated everything to that also he's super talented also there's something about being 19 right right isn't there something about being like really what is it is it a physical thing or is it a mental thing is it that you don't have as much responsibility i think it's a combination of a lot of those things yeah yeah without a doubt but it's it's super rare that a guy is like 35 and then like how long has gabriel been training for he's he wasn't even like he wasn't even like he wasn't even that good before like he was okay like he was good but like his he didn't get that good until he went to thailand he started taking like really tough fights he's been training for like since he was like 13 i think so think of that that's only six years yeah so it's very rare that a guy would be like 34 and then and when he's 39 he's this motherfucker of motherfuckers like he is you know what is it is it i i've always wondered like is it that life just you burdened yourself down with with responsibility and information and just life itself relationships bills bullshit stress existential angst the the fucking the grave calling you know all these different things there's there's so many variables you can't really like pinpoint it on one specific thing you know everybody in everybody's variables are going to be different you know we're all we all have different things to overcome and deal with just because i view yours as maybe they're not that difficult like you don't know I don't know everything he's dealing with he doesn't know everything I'm dealing with or have had to overcome but but if I sat there and listened to his story I'm like geez like I wouldn't want to do that I'm sure it's a crazy story but like when you go back and watch mike Tyson when he was 19 you go see Mike Tyson like hitting the bag with teddy atlas when he's 19 just go Jesus fucking Christ how does anybody get that good like what what happens from 13 to 19 like what how is it possible that someone can just reach that insane level and it seems that it happens primarily when someone's really young yeah i mean i started when i was 10 um and when i was 16 you can ask hearing like i felt invincible man like i will i will take much like kevin i would take any fight any weight doesn't didn't matter you know um i was 16 i couldn't fight as an adult yet because i was 18 but we lied and said that i was 18 and so because i ran out of people to fight i ran out of juniors to fight so from 16 to 18 i was technically an adult and I was just taking us many fights that you know anywhere from 132 pounds to 147 any fight that I could possibly take us I needed to get the experience and that's what I wanted to do I wanted to dedicate my life to it do you think that that's possible for an older person like so like Kevin you obviously you were still young you're 23 you know that mean you're saying you're you're older but a lot of people listen like god 23 you're still like a baby you can still learn a lot.

[405] I mean, relatively though, for the sport, Kevin was old.

[406] Yeah.

[407] And I'll have people come up to me like, wow, I'm too old.

[408] I'm like, how old are you?

[409] Like 19?

[410] I'm like, dude.

[411] I'm like, I didn't even start until I was 23.

[412] What are you talking about?

[413] Because people just, I think people just like to view things as an excuse.

[414] Like, oh, I can't do it because X. But we all have something that we can point to and be like, well, I can't make it because of this.

[415] Of course.

[416] But there's people who have had that and worse and have made it.

[417] So what excuse because you possibly have?

[418] You're a very technical fighter.

[419] You're very technical guy do you think that maybe there is some benefit in having started a little bit later being a little wiser 100 % that that i think that's a huge thing um that just because you start you know when you start when you're starting your kid there's so much of it like you're just doing it and for whatever but but once you you've you've um matured in a certain way like like i started to for only one reason i want to be the best i can be you know i'm i'm developed enough of physically and mentally to apply these things to to what I'm trying to apply them to to do to be the best fighter I can whereas yeah when you're younger you're still you're still growing and learning and developing physically as well as mentally yeah like when I when I my first fight I was 11 10 like I just knew like I I kind of liked it but I like I didn't have like a purpose to it like I just really enjoyed training at the time it was exciting it was exciting right and you had skills you wanted to try them out yeah I just but I wasn't like oh I'm going to be the best in the world right now like that didn't come to like 14 15 when I was like I really I really want to dedicate my life now were you living in America at the time no I I was in Peru when did you come to America when I was 13 when you were 13 and did you go straight to CSA was that the first you trained at I started at vertex and then when I was 16 2008 I met Kieran and ever since we've been inseparable well you guys have a very unique gym and it's one of the most important things for a young fighter is to find the right environment to develop and we were talking about that earlier today like you can get unlucky and find a bad coach in a bad gym and you get all tangled up with that person psychologically and they become family and then you know you're you're kind of fucked yeah it's a very difficult break for a lot of fighters to make yeah man i mean like i honestly i i've been truly blessed since i started all the way to now because i started with rodrigo then fair texting i was with johnson on somebody who kevin still trains with this day to this day a little bit but you know i've always had really good coaching since i started you know i think another another unfortunate thing is just because somebody's a great coach doesn't mean they're great for you you know so so sometimes you'll see these people like leave their camps and go to this really high level coach who's had a lot of success with certain individuals but that doesn't mean they're going to be great for you so i try to always tell people you you have to find what works best for you whether it's a coach whether it's your diet whether it's your training scheduled, what works for me won't always work for you.

[420] You've got to find what's best for you.

[421] And that doesn't always necessarily mean I need this great coach because you guys might just clash.

[422] You know what I'm saying?

[423] Like coaches and fighting, it's very much about, it's like having a relationship with somebody with another person.

[424] Like you just might clash together, not work.

[425] And it's also, what you just said it's super important about finding that winning formula.

[426] Yeah.

[427] Whether it's training, whether it's diet, whether it's coaching.

[428] and then gym partners.

[429] Like I know you guys are fantastic partners.

[430] You guys work together really well.

[431] I've watched a lot of videos that you guys trained together.

[432] I mean, how critical is that to have someone who's an elite fighter that trains with you on a daily basis?

[433] It's one of the most important things.

[434] There's so many factors that go into building a fighter.

[435] It's not just one thing.

[436] You know what I mean?

[437] And that one thing needs to constantly be adjusted because the way I trained today isn't how I trained even a year ago.

[438] You know, you continually need to be hopping back and forth on this line of too much and too little of one thing.

[439] What's the difference between how you train today versus how you train a year ago?

[440] I'd say the older I get, the more it's a mental approach kind of thing.

[441] You know, like my technique isn't going to be altered that much at this stage, but the way that I apply them, the way I go about them, the way I think about them, very much is going to change.

[442] you know at a certain stage it's like you have all these weapons to use it's just a matter which ones you use at which time at which speed um in the way that you apply them where in the beginning you're just trying to do things well and you're trying to almost put all these tools in the toolbox you know as your career develops but at a certain stage not to say I'm not adding more is that I have all these tools I need to figure out how which ones work best for me and which ones work work for me at which time against which venue which sport you know what I mean there's so many things that you can play with and adjust and good and bad that was a huge thing I struggled with after my knee surgery was like I almost forgot how to fight as myself you know what I mean because it was like okay here's all your weapons pick up which ones you want to use I'm like I don't know I don't remember which ones I used and how I put them together and it took me a series of fights to find myself again as a fighter in the ring how much time did you take off because of your knee surgery nine weeks nine months and one week um that was between fights that was between the day I blew my knee out and the day I got back in the ring um you had ACL reconstruction yeah I completely throw my ACL which way did they do it uh cadaver yeah I had that way um I just talked to a friend of mine she had it done they took a she was in Austria in a skiing accident they took some meat out of her calf yeah which I've never even heard of before and reconstructed it well like like you know there was those options but I was like I don't want to take anything else out of myself that might weaken that thing like I got enough to deal with now I can't weaken something else.

[443] So for me, it was, and in talking to other athletes that have had it, it just, it seemed like the better approach for me. And it has worked best for me. It worked best for me, too.

[444] I had both knees reconstructed.

[445] I had my left one done with a patelotendin graph, where they take a big chunk into your petalotendant, with a piece of bone from your shin and a piece of bone from your knee.

[446] And it's fine, but that was like a year before it felt good again.

[447] But the right knee, like, I have zero problems with it.

[448] And I was training, I was doing, I was in jujitsu again in six months so it was it and it was with no pain like it never really like there was no consequences for the injury whereas the left one still like where they'd cut the bone out like if I like kneel down on a hardwood floor I could still feel it yeah it's um there's a lot of people that are scared of cadavers though they're just scared for yeah it was a weird like for me it was more of a mentally a strange thing you know to to to have something of someone else's who passed away and you know that was just a weird very weird thing mentally to kind of deal with and you know how it works right it's just a scaffolding no no not really no um what it is is they take usually they use um an achilles tendon because it's much stronger it's actually 150 percent i believe stronger than the original ACL they take that achilles tendon they put it in place and then your body re proliferates that tendon with its own tissue right so So that tendon is not there anymore.

[449] Your body fills it up with cells because they reattach the blood supply.

[450] And as your body starts, it starts using that to regenerate tissue.

[451] Right.

[452] So it puts your own cells, but in the form of a much larger tendon, it's really kind of interesting.

[453] Yeah, that's crazy.

[454] Yeah.

[455] Yeah, my right leg, which is the one I blew out, feels so much better than my left one does.

[456] Like, stronger and like...

[457] Well, that's thick, man. They use a thick -ass fucking tent.

[458] I mean, we have a shitty design.

[459] Yeah.

[460] The human body, the ACL in particular.

[461] I'm just going to get everything replaced.

[462] Well, as soon as you figure out heel hooks, as soon as people figure out heel hooks, you just realize like, oh, my God, my knee is so stupid.

[463] Who designed this?

[464] Because all you have to do is get that heel here and, like, pop, it just pops off.

[465] It's terrible, you know?

[466] I mean, it happens all the time in Jiu -Jitsu guys get their knees blown apart.

[467] That gives me nightmares, man, just watching that.

[468] Yeah, well, it's, I mean, some guys get nightmares.

[469] They watch you guys kick each other.

[470] I know.

[471] I've blown up a couple of ACLs kicking people.

[472] Yeah, I'm sure.

[473] Didn't feel good, man. Yeah.

[474] I was like, God, did I do it?

[475] Was it a planted leg?

[476] Is that what it is most of the time?

[477] Yeah, a couple tough guys that try to come in the gym, go hard, you know?

[478] And I'm like, all right, man, let's go.

[479] Oh.

[480] Yeah, that's why I tell a lot of people, like, learning how to absorb and take a punch or a kick is just as if not more important than throwing it because you're going to get hit.

[481] Sure.

[482] No matter how good you are, you're going to get hit.

[483] And if you don't know how to take that and absorb it and minimize it and minimize the damage, you're going to have a lot of really serious injuries and unfortunately so much of what we do is applied to the offensive side of it, hitting people, you know, and those kinds of things, but if you don't know how to take a punch, and obviously you don't want to just be like, all right, I want to learn how to take punches really good, but that's a skill that you need to have.

[484] Yeah, there's a subtlety to it that I think is lost on a lot of people, the ability to just move with something.

[485] And the way I always try to tell to people, like, have someone hold their hand up and you punch it, then have them move.

[486] their hand just a little bit.

[487] And you still try to punch it, but it doesn't feel good.

[488] Yeah.

[489] You know, like, it feels good when they meet you.

[490] It's like people hold pads and they, like, slap you with the, you know, it feels good.

[491] You hit it.

[492] But if someone just kind of pulls away a little bit, so much of the punch is diminished.

[493] Yeah, it really just drains the life out of you.

[494] Because you feel like you're giving someone all you have.

[495] And in your mind, you're hitting them.

[496] Right.

[497] But nothing is happening.

[498] It's like the worst thing.

[499] We have that winning, that big shield, you know, and Kieran, you know, and Kieran, you sometimes to train us like towards the end of camp and it's awful because you're like given everything you got to this thing and it's just so fat yeah it's like yeah there's nothing coming back at you so there's no there's no reverb off your head it's like you're punching into a cloud and like oh my gosh well i've seen some gyms that have that crazy 300 pound bag that just sits on the ground it doesn't even swing it just sits there and you wind up kicking that thing and I'm always like man I don't know like that I don't is that good?

[500] Is it good to kick something that doesn't move?

[501] It's another one of those things where it's just a piece of the puzzle.

[502] Like it's good to develop your power and stuff.

[503] But yeah, if that's all you're doing, when something's moving around on you, it's giving you very different looks.

[504] It's kind of like we do a lot of technical sparring, you know, with no gear on and stuff.

[505] If you have all these pads on and you have this false sense of security and then you get in there with someone who's got nothing on and it's just like you're kicking things wrong and you're catching elbows and and you're messing your feet up because you haven't learned how to place things correctly and where they need to go and where you maximize their damage and minimize yours.

[506] Is there a point of diminishing returns, though, with a heavy bag where, like, at a 300 -pound bag and you're kicking it, it's probably not developing your power as much as even maybe a 150 -pound bag would.

[507] Does that make sense?

[508] I guess it just depends on what it is you're trying to do and work on and improve.

[509] You know what I mean?

[510] When you're hitting one of those immobile bags, what would you concentrate on primarily?

[511] Power.

[512] Power, yeah.

[513] Just dig in.

[514] Just digging in as hard as you can.

[515] Because I know that's going to be right there.

[516] I can close my eyes and hit this as hard as I want to.

[517] And I don't have to worry so much about, like, my balance and my speed.

[518] I can just blindly do this kind of thing.

[519] So just dig in and work on just the explosion.

[520] Yeah.

[521] But isn't there some benefit in the bag having some sort of a give so your shin is pushing?

[522] Without a doubt.

[523] Like, I mean, a lot of times when I'm working on speed and movement and stuff, I don't really just try to, like, crack the bag.

[524] I'm just, like, touching it.

[525] So I'll work on a much lighter bag.

[526] And I'm just trying to work on my angles and in the bag moving and targeting and those kinds of things.

[527] But, again, it's very specific in what I'm trying to do.

[528] And there's not just one way to do this.

[529] And then I think that's another thing that not a lot of people think about or apply is, she's like, oh, I'm just going to hit paths.

[530] I'm just going to hit the bag.

[531] But why are you doing it?

[532] What is it that you're working on?

[533] What are you trying to develop?

[534] Because there's so many aspects to this.

[535] You know what I mean?

[536] Yeah.

[537] And it's something, but it's another thing that you just figure.

[538] out over time do you remember when the water bags were a big deal yeah it's like a big thing there was a thick foam outer layer then there was water in it that didn't really catch on did it we have we have an aqua bag yeah it's a little different it's a little thicker like rubber it's good for power punching i i like it i like it to throw elbows because it gives in on you a little bit i mean not that it's very is very well put together so it doesn't like give in as much as you think it would Yeah.

[539] What are the misconceptions that you think maybe even traditional martial artists might have when they're looking at Muay Thai?

[540] Like what?

[541] Maybe that is really one -dimensional.

[542] You know, I think we have this kind of, like, we think about it like almost like the, who's in Street Fighter.

[543] Rio?

[544] Ryu?

[545] No, the Sagget.

[546] Oh, yeah.

[547] Which one is he?

[548] The old school, the old school tiebox.

[549] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[550] When you think about multi -fighters just being this mindless, like we're just going to throw power at each other and just stand there and we have no thought or process behind anything.

[551] And yeah, there's definitely fighters who do that.

[552] And maybe to an outside observer, they might not see all the small details and the complexity of the things they're doing.

[553] Just because I'm standing in front of you, not moving, doesn't mean there's no thought behind it.

[554] Right.

[555] You know what I mean?

[556] It's like I've learned how to use those head movement and footwork things on a very, very small scale.

[557] You know, so to me, I am doing a lot of movement in footwork, but to an outside person, I'm just standing there mindlessly just winging shots at each other.

[558] You know, so you don't see, you don't see all the complexity that goes into it where I can watch it and view those things very well.

[559] Is it one of those things where you're watching, like say if you're watching an MMA fight, for example, where a lot of times when you're watching MMA, you're watching someone who's pretty good at a bunch of different things.

[560] Yeah.

[561] But not maybe.

[562] technically proficient at any of those things and you're seeing a lot of that where guys are just kind of standing in front of each other and almost playing moitai yeah yeah yeah definitely and as a high -level fighter do you guys watch mama and go ah this fucking this is all oh my god i mean honestly like especially the it hits me really hard sometimes like when we're like Friday night lion fights you're there alive and then you're like watching whatever ufc or whatever whatever other car there is on and you're like on TV and he's like oh my God you know so yeah but there's there is some good strikers in MMA sure there's guys like barboza there's some pretty high level guys but yeah joanna yeah sure valentino chavchenco yeah but there's also a lot of different elements they have to think about right right take downs it's definitely like like we were talking about it earlier you got to implement you know what works for you in MMA so what works for you might not work for somebody else either so it's it's really it's really tough it's different now you at 24 years old you've already have a very successful moitai career have you thought about doing any m a m a may so actually i just signed a deal with bellator oh shit so i'm making the transition uh not only with mbama i wanted to do moitai keep doing moitai with lion fight but that has that hasn't worked out so good so i'm gonna be doing bellator kickboxing and mma so why hasn't that worked out They're going a different route, so it's not going to work to promote an M .M .A. fighter, you know, with Lion Fight.

[563] So Scott Coker is going to, you know, has signed me, and he's going to be able to work both angles with me. So that's going to be really good.

[564] Now, you're a guy who clinches a lot, and that would be a great thing for MMA.

[565] But what about for kickboxing?

[566] Are you going to do Bellator kickboxing as well?

[567] Because I know Bellator is doing a really interesting thing right now.

[568] They're kind of combining kickboxing and MMA on.

[569] on the same card.

[570] Has anybody talked to them about abandoning the kickboxing aspect and just doing Muay Thai?

[571] I don't know.

[572] I've said some things to Scott about it.

[573] And I think they're just trying to establish that kickboxing side of their cards.

[574] And hopefully one day he might bring in some Muay fight maybe once the Belator kickboxing can be more of a standalone promotion.

[575] motion.

[576] I think they might be able to venture out into mixing the cards, maybe have some multi -fights on the undercard or in between fights as well.

[577] But for now, I think, you know, they're just trying to start out and do things right and build up that portion of it and having those mixed cards where it's the Bellator MMMA and the Bellator kickboxing, which has worked out very well.

[578] And I think people really enjoy it because we're having both fights on the card.

[579] But eventually, it'd be nice if the kickboxing can stand alone and then, kind of develop from there yeah it just seems to me that it doesn't make any sense to limited elbows and knees yeah just it seemed kind of crazy yeah but again it's it's a different sport you know what I mean it is but it's striking yeah you know what I mean I mean if you're if you're kicking like why aren't you elbowing like why aren't you kneeing I could say yeah I agree it's a beautiful I mean I think the more complex striking gets the the more beautiful it is I mean the more variables that exist like when I watch a guy like sanchise a perfect example because he's such a wild guy to watch.

[580] He's so he fights in his own very particular style and he's very light on his feet.

[581] There's a lot of switching of the feet, a lot of kicks that you don't know where they're going you think they're going low and they kind of come straight up and go high.

[582] Kevin fought Sanjay.

[583] Did you?

[584] When did you play Sanchi?

[585] When was that?

[586] 11?

[587] 2011?

[588] 2012?

[589] Yeah, 11 or 12?

[590] I forget.

[591] August 2012.

[592] It was right before you moved to CSA.

[593] No, I fought sack it out before I moved to CSA.

[594] How was that?

[595] What was fighting Sancha?

[596] I like, I'll watch it, man. It was, it was amazing.

[597] It was a great fight.

[598] It's hard to describe what it was like, man. It was, I was so dialed in physically and mentally that, that I look back and I'm like, geez, dude.

[599] Like, I can't believe that was me in there doing that.

[600] It was just so, like, I was in another mental plane, you know.

[601] You know what I mean?

[602] Like, just everything was just firing the way.

[603] Is this it right here?

[604] Okay, we'll watch a little bit of this while we're talking.

[605] As long as we have it in the background.

[606] I want you to see how Sanchez looked after the fight.

[607] Cisle Peeples as a referee.

[608] Yeah, he kind of screwed me. Oh, yeah.

[609] Who saw that coming?

[610] Did he do that thing where he lifts his knee up and does the karate thing at the beginning?

[611] I got to watch that.

[612] That shit's hilarious.

[613] How did he become the person to the referee?

[614] Cisop People is a very nice guy.

[615] I will say that.

[616] I want to be a nice.

[617] I want to see this.

[618] Hayah!

[619] There it goes.

[620] He did that take that he does.

[621] that weird knee thing that he does.

[622] But yeah, Sanchez is one of those guys.

[623] Like, he doesn't fight like a traditional Muay Thai fighter, and he's the best Muay fighter of all time, arguably, you know?

[624] He's certainly one of them.

[625] He uses so many things from different arts and, you know, Taekwondo and Muay and kickboxing.

[626] Yeah, he's got that really sneaky left leg, too, man. That left leg literally comes straight up.

[627] And it's one of the, you have no idea where it's going.

[628] It might be a front kick.

[629] Leg kick, body kick, head kick.

[630] Like, I knew he was going to kick me. I just didn't know where the hell it was going.

[631] Yeah.

[632] Well, he's really good.

[633] Have you ever seen Lawrence Kenshin's breakdowns of Muay fights?

[634] What is it?

[635] He does him on YouTube.

[636] Do you know what the name is?

[637] I don't know.

[638] I've seen one guy's deal with a lot of breakdowns, and they're really well.

[639] I don't know if it's the same guy.

[640] I think Lawrence just does him under his name, but he's a really, really smart guy and really, really aware of Muay and really aware of the complexities.

[641] and he did a breakdown on Sanchi, and one of the things of Sanchi setting up high kicks and the way he'll like sort of test you with some other kicks.

[642] And then he's got that really unusual way of throwing his kicks too where they literally come straight up.

[643] Yeah, there it is.

[644] But let's go back to that fight.

[645] I want to go back to that fight.

[646] I don't want you to change.

[647] Oh, yeah, I've seen some of that guys.

[648] And that's kind of what we were speaking of earlier in the gym is it's just that one thing, he's kick.

[649] But he has so many ways and variables to set that up as far as speed And so he uses all these things that test you.

[650] And once he figures that out, you're done.

[651] And that's how he's able to destroy basically everyone at every level of the sport because he has so many answers to that one question.

[652] You beat him, didn't you?

[653] No, it was a split decision.

[654] Split decision?

[655] Why did I feel it?

[656] Oh, Kieran saying you won.

[657] Some people think of it.

[658] If I didn't get dropped, but not really dropped, one?

[659] That's how Cecil killed him.

[660] Oh, Cecil people's got you with a bad count.

[661] Yeah, well.

[662] It was a split, right?

[663] Yeah, it's kind of ironic having Cecil Peoples be the referee in a fight that's a Muay fight because Cisa Peoples is one of those guys that says that you can't stop people with leg kicks.

[664] That was like one of his quotes about it was one of the bad decisions that went down where he's like leg kicks don't stop fights.

[665] I'm like, oh my God.

[666] Yeah.

[667] How are you allowed to even say that?

[668] It's the unfortunate thing about fighting is you have people regulating these arts who have no idea about them whatsoever.

[669] Well, that's a giant issue with.

[670] the UFC.

[671] It's a giant issue with judging, and I would imagine with Muay, it's even more difficult to find competent judges and referees.

[672] You can't.

[673] You're getting, you're getting boxing judges doing Muay Thai.

[674] You're getting karate guys doing Muay Thai, and these are the people who are basically controlling the outcomes of these fights if there's no stoppage.

[675] Right.

[676] And it's, it's crazy.

[677] Now, in Thailand, wow, that fucking sneaky left leg he's got, man. In Thailand, how do they approach the clinch?

[678] Because you're seen in this fight like Cecil is breaking you guys up almost immediately as soon as you tie up it's it's it's such a complex thing too you know it's not just the fact are these guys working well what are they doing if you don't have a deep understanding of it you're not going to be able to to judge it or ref it accurately you know what I mean so it's not just a matter of time is it's not a matter of people moving around it's what are they doing are they affecting each other are they hurting each other right are they just mindly lifting their legs up to appear to stay busy where if somebody doesn't know that me just lifting my leg up be like oh well he's staying busy he's active why are they breaking them up but I wasn't really doing anything right I was just screwing around like a lot of times they're like oh I'm gonna let you guys work in the clinch but they just let like you're not doing anything and they just let it go and not knowing when people are stalling out or are trying to buy time or just just moving their legs for the sake of looking like they're actually needing each other and these judges and these refs don't have an understanding of that That's an issue with ground fighting as well.

[679] It's an issue with the UFC when certain fights go to the ground, whether it's judging or whether it's even refereeing, like some guys are setting up certain positions and then the referee will come up and stand them up.

[680] Like that is crazy.

[681] Like this guy's, they're working, they're fighting.

[682] But I think that in the clinch as well, there's a lot of times they separate guys from the clinch.

[683] When two guys, if they're clenching up and they're both working to try to establish dominant positions, one is eventually maybe going to win that dominant position battle.

[684] And that's part of the grind.

[685] I mean, part of the grind is a guy imposing your skill set, his will, as conditioning, all the above, on his opponent.

[686] And if you just get in and separate that because you want to watch a knockout, you're kind of diluting the sport.

[687] Yeah.

[688] And it's like, I don't care how much, how many fights you've watched or how many courses you've taken.

[689] If you haven't done this before, if you've never fought before, you don't know what's going on in there.

[690] And that's the problem.

[691] You have people, even if they've been in the sport for a very long time and may have been around it for a very long time, if you've never fought at least at some level, you don't know what's going.

[692] going on.

[693] Right.

[694] Yeah, you're seeing it, like, you're seeing it, but you really don't know what you're seeing.

[695] Right.

[696] And you don't know how much of it is actually effective and how much of it the guys are actually just absorbing things and blocking things.

[697] It's very, it's, it's so complex.

[698] And I think that's one of the things that gets lost about fighting arts in general, but Muay Thai in particular, is all of the complexity that goes on.

[699] Like, what you were saying that a lot of people, the misconception is that they look at it two guys that are just bruisers.

[700] Yeah.

[701] But what I'm watching here, I'm watching all this complex interactions of footwork and kicks and elbows and knees and clinching and knowing when to time things and dealing with a really high -level opponent is very crafty and he's kind of calculating all this stuff in his head as well.

[702] Yeah.

[703] Well, that's that's kind of the problem with there's only so much you can learn from a book.

[704] There's only so much you can learn from watching videos until you apply those things.

[705] It's like street smart and book smart.

[706] If you don't have that street knowledge, your knowledge is very limited, you know?

[707] And so I don't care how much you think you know.

[708] If you've never applied it, even just like sparring, I don't care how much you spar, you know, until you get in there.

[709] You don't know what it's like.

[710] Right.

[711] I can imagine.

[712] You know, I think that's the case with a lot of things.

[713] I mean, I even joke about golf because I think golf is stupid.

[714] but I get the people that do it a lot to them it must be complex like they must understand all the different aspects of it and I say that about playing pool too that it's an art form that's only interesting for people to do it and I think that's one of the things that's cool about going to like what I'm seeing here this is a small arena or small crowd super small you mean it looks like there's only like four or five hundred people in that whole place if that and so that kind of shit I mean look here here's you world championship caliber fighter fighting another world championship caliber fighter both guys in their prime and you're fighting in front of 50 people you know and but it's super making a couple books and it's super complex i mean what's going on is you know this exchange the interactions and i think one of the things about having guys like lawrence kenshin putting out these videos and a lot of other people that have done these tremendous breakdown videos of moitai is that people that are fans mean even if they don't train themselves, even if they just watch it, they can see things now that maybe perhaps they wouldn't have seen before and then appreciate what these athletes are doing.

[715] Like, there's a lot of people that watch football that can't fucking play football at all, but they can enjoy it.

[716] And I think that you're seeing that in this, you know, and watching the, whoa, there's a, is that where he called a knockdown?

[717] Yeah.

[718] So.

[719] But he got right back up.

[720] I mean, why was that a knockdown?

[721] Because he got kicked in the head.

[722] He kicked in the shoulder.

[723] One piece.

[724] Carian, if you want to talk, you've got to talk on the mic, okay?

[725] Look, motherfucker.

[726] I told you you were going to be on the show.

[727] Why don't you get a goddamn chair and Jamie will pull up a microphone?

[728] No, this is the one thing.

[729] This one thing that's lost that hasn't been discussed is because Kevin doesn't talk about it, is to this day, and how long ago is this fight?

[730] Four years ago.

[731] To this day, this is the only time that the WBC has ever sanctioned a diamond belt fight for a Muay Thai fight.

[732] What's that mean?

[733] What it means is that in boxing, when you have two great fighters from two different weight classes that meet it a catchweight.

[734] They make it a diamond belt fight, and they put real diamonds on the belt, and it's the epitome of the WBC title.

[735] Okay.

[736] It's the only time in the history of the sport that the WBC made a diamond belt for a Muay Thai fight.

[737] That's what a watershed moment this fight was for Muay Thai in America.

[738] Okay.

[739] Go sit down.

[740] I get it.

[741] No, for real.

[742] I mean, and also just important because it's rare that you see guys of this caliber going at it like this.

[743] I mean, it's a super exciting fight.

[744] Great fight.

[745] Where's Stan Chai fighting now?

[746] He's starting to do M .M .A., isn't he?

[747] No, he was calling out Connor McGregor for a second?

[748] Was he?

[749] Probably just to get a little attention.

[750] Yeah, I don't know.

[751] They're all just talking about stuff and doing stuff, but will it actually have?

[752] I mean, they talked about Bukau doing MMA for a long time because he was training in a little bit, but is he going to actually do it?

[753] I don't know.

[754] Well, what's interesting about tie fighters is that they're really good in the clinch and taking people down.

[755] Yeah.

[756] You know, and really good at avoiding being taken down.

[757] Yeah, well, a lot of people don't understand how much similarities there are when it comes to the clinch in wrestling and judo.

[758] And, you know, I went and trained with the blackbell judo team in San Jose before I had a shoeboxing fight.

[759] And they just could not believe that I could hang with their high -level blackbells.

[760] And I'm like, well, it's all this kind of similar stuff.

[761] Like, yeah, your setups might be a little bit different.

[762] but all the fundamentals that go in a Muay clinch are very similar to judo.

[763] It's just a difference of things you can and cannot do, but the base and the fundamentals of it go across the board.

[764] Yeah, you see that a lot with sweeps and trips, and like you see some really interesting trips and sweeps in Muay that are very, very technical about, like, manipulating guys, setting them up in one direction and changing direction on them and throwing them to the ground.

[765] It's really cool stuff to see.

[766] A lot of the stuff in the Muay Thai clenched, clinch is very similar to Greco wrestling, you know, a lot, all upper body throws and stuff, because we can't shoot in, but everything we can do is above the waist and those kind of manipulations and off balancing.

[767] And that's why, like, if I just do Greco wrestling, I do pretty well, you know, and people are often surprised by how well my wrestling or jujitsu is if I'm just messing around doing it, because there's so many similarities.

[768] Right.

[769] That makes sense.

[770] Now, when you're watching fights in Thailand, they judge, um, The clinch is a very important part of the fight.

[771] Whereas a lot of times in America, when you're looking at the clinch, we think of it the same way we look at a clinch in boxing.

[772] Like the guys are just stalling.

[773] Yeah, it's a way to dominate and show your strength and ability over your opponent.

[774] You know, and if you can control someone and damage them and laying these clean knees on someone, it's showing your superiority over them.

[775] you know but again like you said here we don't have a as good understanding of it so yeah we just you're just they're just they're just they're just resting or they're just you know they're not doing anything in there right you know what i'm saying now when guys take guys down in moitai like how much does that count like how are they scoring fights obviously knockdowns are critical but like if you dump a guy a bunch of times meaning you sweep them and trip them and slam them on his back how much of a factor is that in a fight it should be a huge factor if they're scoring these correctly because, again, showing your balance, your dominance, you're in your control is one of the most important things.

[776] So being able to throw someone on the ground and you're still just standing there is a huge scoring thing.

[777] Is how you're doing it important?

[778] Because what if you just get double underhooks and just crush them towards you and just bend them over them?

[779] You know, there's so many factors, man, that go into it.

[780] And again, if you have a judge or a ref that basically has a very elementary understanding of this sport, they can't give you an accurate judge of this or an accurate reffing of this because they're not so, their knowledge isn't so deep.

[781] Right.

[782] You know what I'm saying?

[783] It's like me watching a jujitsu match and trying to score it.

[784] Like, I mean, I can kind of score it, but I wouldn't be able to if I spent my life in the sport.

[785] Right.

[786] You know what I'm saying?

[787] What I'm kind of getting at is there is style points.

[788] Style points?

[789] You know what I'm saying?

[790] You know, something is dope.

[791] You know, you hit a guy with a beautiful sweep and dump him on his back.

[792] It's like, if you sweet somebody and seamlessly do it and make it look like nothing as opposed to sweeping them, like falling on top of them and you both lose their bounce, of course, yeah.

[793] Yeah.

[794] Yeah, without a doubt.

[795] That's a weird thing to like objectively call, though, isn't it?

[796] Yeah.

[797] Judging is such a strange thing.

[798] It's tough, man. And I'll be the first one to admit that it's a very complicated thing.

[799] You know, I've justified.

[800] I'm like, I don't know, man. Like, you know.

[801] And then I'm thinking, trying to think of it from the mentality of someone that's never done this.

[802] before or only taking like a course I'm like how can you do that I have a hard time doing it and I've spent 15 years doing this sport you you had a controversial loss in lion fight yeah earlier this year right yeah I fought I fought crompid yeah tie with over a couple hundred fights and that was your first loss that was my first loss yeah that I didn't think you lost that fight yeah they overturn it they did yeah after yeah 18 that fucking never happens 18 judges from all around the world or something like that they can do that I guess.

[803] Holy shit.

[804] Honestly, I didn't care.

[805] I still don't because I had a great fight and I put everything on the line.

[806] I thought I did the best that I could.

[807] You know, I mean, there's some things that I think I could have done better.

[808] It was a great fight, no doubt about it.

[809] It was a close fight, no doubt about it.

[810] But I thought you won.

[811] And I watched it and I was like, hmm.

[812] And then I remember Pat Militich and Michael Chevello were both saying they thought it was a bad decision.

[813] And so then I watched it again.

[814] I said, well, I'm going to watch it one more time.

[815] And I was like, man, I think that was a bad decision.

[816] and I remember now that you're saying that I remember hearing that it was overturned I think maybe they brought it up on a broadcast afterwards during your next fight is that what happened?

[817] Is that when they brought it up again maybe?

[818] Am I making this up?

[819] It was the next event.

[820] I wasn't fighting on it but they brought it up and I was the next event and I was on the broadcast.

[821] Is that rare that they overturn a fight?

[822] Yeah I mean yeah I'm pretty sure it's rare yeah I never I never seen it I mean it's such a tough thing especially in a fight that wasn't like so lopsided you know relatively close it's just a matter how you're viewing it, what you're giving more or less credit to, and it seems like a simple thing to do on the outside, well, he hit him or well, he rocked him more, but there's so many levels to this.

[823] It's kind of like we were talking about earlier.

[824] It's not an on or off thing.

[825] It's a dial, you know what I mean?

[826] And unless you're in there, you can't even tell how much impact this is doing, how much it's really hurting you.

[827] Right.

[828] You know, from the outside, and that's why it's very important, especially like for the ties to have that, stone cold face where nothing is affecting them because you don't really know this person could just get crushed with a with a right hand and they didn't even move or show anything right it makes it very difficult for for a judge to say well this this punch should get this this amount of credit or this much credit as opposed to just that pitter pat stuff so you know it's very difficult thing to do and to do correctly and accurately because there's so many variables and so many things you're seeing or not seeing depending on where you're sitting how you're viewing it if you're in there, if you're out there, if you're on the left side of the ring, the right side of the ring, there's, there's, it's too complex a thing to, that's why I could never say anything about a decision.

[829] It's like, well, it's such a difficult thing to do, you know, unless it was so one -sided.

[830] You're like how in any way could you view this?

[831] But if, if any fight is relatively close, I don't see how you can complain really about the decision because no matter what, sometimes you're going to be on one side of it and sometimes you're going to be on the other side of it where maybe you didn't win and they gave it to you, you know?

[832] One of the things I love about talking to fighters and especially about putting it on a podcast is I think it gives people the impression of fighters the, like a similar impression to what I have.

[833] I think a lot of people have the wrong impression.

[834] They have this impression that fighters are all, hey, I'm a bad motherfucker.

[835] I'm out there to fuck the world and kick ass.

[836] But really, the very best fighters are almost all very intelligent and very complex people.

[837] And what you do when you fight, when you compete, is like a representative of your focus.

[838] It's like all the stuff that you had to do to get to that moment, especially after you've done it a few times and you're aware of all the demands and you've risen to the occasion on more than one time and you realize like all the variables that are involved in it.

[839] You know, it's cool talking to you guys and going over that stuff.

[840] And it's sort of, I think there's a lot of people that are listening right now.

[841] Like, these fucking guys are sharp.

[842] Like, there's a lot going on to this that I didn't think is, it's a thing that you don't, you don't see the whole thing sometimes.

[843] Yeah, ever, ever.

[844] We see, and like when it comes to fighting, you're viewing 15 minutes of something someone put their entire life into.

[845] And you're going to, you judge them on this very small fraction of a moment in their life.

[846] And that, that's why fighting is one of the, I think, more.

[847] stressful sporting things you can do because we put so much into such a little thing that is viewed and this is the only thing we're judged on we're not judged by how hard we train or how much we kill ourselves or the things we've had overcome in the gym it's like what you did on that day in that moment how how you came across is means everything you know what I mean whereas other things you there's other other ways around it and you're like yeah you could have a bad day but tomorrow you're going to have a better day it's like this is the day This is the only day.

[848] And not the only day, 15 minutes or half an hour, whatever it might be.

[849] It's not like football where there's a season and, okay, we'll make it up the next game.

[850] You know, people don't really truly understand how much goes into this and how much we put it into our camps and everything.

[851] Bad judges and bad refs is like, it's life and death.

[852] Like, you are literally have my life in your hands and you are incompetent.

[853] I mean, even the UFC, you lose three times, you get cut.

[854] Sometimes twice.

[855] Yeah, exactly.

[856] Yeah, I mean, depending upon, there's a lot of variables.

[857] that are involved in that but what fighting is to me the way I always like to describe it is high level problem solving with dire physical consequences and so when you watch someone who's absolutely sensational at it you know like when you watch an Anderson Silva in his prime you see some guy who's just figured out a way through this puzzle in this really extraordinary way and there's there's a beauty to that that I think the people that really love and appreciate fighting can can understand it and can feel it and see it and I always want to try to find a way to express that to other people like do you see what I'm seeing you know because if you saw what I'm seeing you'd be fucking freaking out just like I am yeah it's tough man especially like you said if you don't have experience in that sport or have trained or fought yourself like you you can't appreciate it as much as someone who hasn't and it's just viewing it from from the outside you You know, like, you know what goes into this.

[858] You know how hard it is.

[859] You know what it feels like to get hit.

[860] You know what it feels like to have to come these obstacles in training and preparing yourself for a fight.

[861] It's not just this surface thing.

[862] Like, two guys in the ring and they're fighting, it's over and it's done.

[863] When you saw there was some recent event that, what was it, NBC or whoever was putting it into, they spent like hundreds of millions of dollars on boxing.

[864] They had a few events.

[865] They lost a shitload of money.

[866] Yeah.

[867] And then it's done.

[868] out and it falls apart.

[869] I watch something like that.

[870] I'm like, God damn, they put so much effort into this.

[871] If they just put together a fucking stacked moitai card, just a stacked one, and just let people know and put it on primetime TV, just like they do with Fox with the UFC, I feel like you can't miss. I really do.

[872] I just, I feel like it's one of those things where the product is there, the talent is there, the fighters are established.

[873] There's so much high -level talent.

[874] I mean, when anybody watches Muay Thai, even on TV, live especially, they're like, they've just fallen in love with it.

[875] It's like, oh, my God, like, where has, where's this been?

[876] Yeah.

[877] Where's this been?

[878] If you're a fan of exciting shit, you should be a fan of Muay.

[879] Definitely.

[880] Yeah, it's, as we said earlier, there's so many variables that go into it, and it's just a matter of all those right pieces coming together at the right time.

[881] It's just like when the UFC really started blowing up with the Stefan Bonner.

[882] and a Forrest Griffin fight, like how long it had been around, how many amazing fights had been going on, and it was just that the right time, the right people, the right thing blew it up.

[883] Yeah, it was 12 years old.

[884] A lot of people forget.

[885] The UFC was 12 years old and that happened.

[886] How long did they struggle?

[887] How much money did they lose?

[888] Like, how many promotions came and went?

[889] It's the same thing with Muay.

[890] It's just, you don't know what the right combination and the right time is, and hopefully one day all those pieces will come together.

[891] if not we're just doing the best we can with what we have now you as a fighter and you're 34 now 36 36 this is you know when you're an athlete this is the you know there's a there's a window i think sanchez 36 too yeah where there's a window there's like where your body is going to function at the level that it's at right now for a certain amount of time and not much more yeah does that does that fuck with you does that when you think about sometimes you know after I had two really bad losses I lost my I lost my world title by stoppage and then I got knocked out the next fight I was really struggling mentally with a lot of things like I don't know can I still do this you know I'm too old to do this and I had all these questions in my head and what I realized what Kieran helped me realize right before I won that WMC title in Peru was I've had all these questions from day one I'm too old to do this I don't know if I'm good enough you know but my answer has always been the same do i love to do this yes can i physically still do this yes well then i'm going to do the best that i can and give this everything that i have and that's not going to change i don't know if that's going to be over today tomorrow 10 years from now you know what i mean so as long as i'm physically able to do this and as long as i still have a love and a passion for this i'm going to keep doing it and i've been people have been asking me how long i'm going to keep doing this for over 10 years there's an old expression that a fighter lives and dies in their own mind you know and when you're at your best, like you were telling me, when you were 16, you felt invincible, you know, when you're confident, you can pull the trigger faster, you have more belief in yourself, when you're saying, I'm just going to do my best.

[892] Like, is there a thing in your head that says, man, I wish I was in that state where I felt invincible?

[893] Or does that not matter?

[894] Yes and no. It definitely does.

[895] There's a point where thinking, you're invincible, it can backfire.

[896] Sure.

[897] You know, like you think about like Tyson.

[898] He was invincible.

[899] But as soon as he lost that, he couldn't overcome it.

[900] Have you ever heard Tyson talk about what was going through his mind when he was walking to the ring?

[901] Yeah.

[902] Have you ever heard him do that thing?

[903] Have you heard him do that?

[904] Yeah.

[905] I fucking loved that recording.

[906] I've played that like 30 or, you got it?

[907] Cue that shit up.

[908] Yeah.

[909] Because there's something about that where it's so raw and it's honest.

[910] since it's after he had been retired, you know, and he just was kind of reflecting about all the nerves that would go through his mind and all the...

[911] Here it goes.

[912] Most guys were pretty much intimidated.

[913] They lost a fight before they even got hit.

[914] Most guys, I knew the artist's gudgery.

[915] These guys, I knew how to beat these guys psychologically before I even got in the ring with them.

[916] As soon as I come into the ring, as soon as I come into the ring, I'm globed, no, stop it.

[917] That's not true.

[918] While I'm in the dressing room, five minutes before I come out, my gloves are laced up.

[919] I'm breaking my gloves down.

[920] I'm pushing the lever in the back of my glove.

[921] And I'm breaking the middle of the glove.

[922] I'm breaking the middle of the glove.

[923] I feel my knuckle piercing against the tight leather gloves on the everlasting glove.

[924] When I come out, I have supreme confidence, but I'm scared to death.

[925] I'm totally afraid.

[926] I'm afraid of everything.

[927] I'm afraid of losing.

[928] I'm afraid of being humiliated.

[929] But I'm totally confident.

[930] Closer I get to the ring, the more confidence I get.

[931] the closer more confidence I get the closer more confidence I get all during my training I've been afraid of this man I thought this man might be able to beating me I've dreamed of him beating me but I always stayed afraid of him but as close I get to the ring I'm more confident once I'm in the ring I'm a god no one could beat me gives me chills if that shit doesn't give you goosebumps when I came that ring I'm a god oh my god I fucking love that I love that because that what you're saying about all that work for that one moment there's so much mind fucking going on yeah and so mental you know and that's the thing like people don't understand how mental fighting is and they can't really appreciate it so and the hardest part is after you have been broken to still get that back and that's a very tough thing to do so if you've gone undefeated for so long you finally lose a lot of lot of people come back from that or not a lot of people get back to the level they were like i was very fortunate i lost i got crushed my first fight and and i was able to to overcome that and to build myself up and help it motivate me and then i went on to win like 18 fights in a row after that but i saw a lot of people go undefeated for 10 15 fights and they just had this amazing confidence they were just crushing everybody but they were also not learning a lot of very important lessons that they needed to learn and so once they finally lost it almost destroyed them and it's very tough to get so far in a game and miss all these lessons you need to learn until you're forced to learn them.

[932] You know what I mean?

[933] So if you can find a way to learn them as well, but nothing teaches as good as losing.

[934] There's also losing, I mean, you see it in MMA, like fighters from different disciplines, maybe grapplers or something like that that lose by chaos for the first time.

[935] It's a completely different animal.

[936] Yeah.

[937] And that's what happened with me when I was saying my two losses.

[938] is like, I'd never been, I'd never been stopped.

[939] Well, I've been stopped, but not really hurt or really knocked out before.

[940] And I haven't twice in a row.

[941] And it was really devastating for me mentally to have that happen and to try to get back to where I was prior to that.

[942] And not just skill, like skill, skill, skill, but there's so many other factors that go into this.

[943] You know, the way that you think about things, it's like being confident but not overconfident, and being confident, but in understanding the danger and the things that'll keep you sharp without affecting you.

[944] It's like, it's like finding that balance between being too nervous and too calm.

[945] Like, I've always been more way, way too calm, like, for my own good.

[946] And I always thought.

[947] You're kind of a calm dude most of the time.

[948] You're very mellow.

[949] You know, and in the beginning, I thought everybody was like that.

[950] And then I would see people getting ready for fights and they're freaking out.

[951] And they can't walk and they're like, I can't do this.

[952] I can't do this.

[953] And these are like high -level people who I've been watching.

[954] I'm like, geez, man, what's wrong with you?

[955] Like, I don't understand.

[956] Like, what are you so nervous about?

[957] You're amazing.

[958] You know what I mean?

[959] But one day I realized, like, being too calm isn't so great either because I went into a fight once and, like, I had no adrenaline going.

[960] I'm like, half asleep.

[961] Like, all right, man, you're about to fight.

[962] And this guy's coming across the ring for me. I'm like, all right, all right, this guy's going to try to kill you.

[963] You better, like, get going.

[964] And it took me a whole round to get back into that mental zone.

[965] You ever seen that Cowboys for any video of his breakdown walking, walking to the cage?

[966] No, Cowboy has a breakdown?

[967] It's just like that.

[968] It's similar.

[969] It's just like that.

[970] His mental approach process and everything.

[971] It's really good.

[972] It's really good.

[973] He's changed a lot of stuff in his game.

[974] And he's a guy that has survived some pretty devastating losses and come back even better.

[975] Yeah.

[976] And that's, that is really the key.

[977] Because eventually, if you do this long enough, those things are going to happen.

[978] Yeah.

[979] And how if, and how you overcome them is really what shows you what a great fighter is.

[980] Because anybody that goes around winning.

[981] and just crushing people, yeah, that's great and all.

[982] But if you have never come back from total destruction, you're not a complete fighter, I don't feel.

[983] Yeah, cowboy since the Dosanjo's fight is the best version of Cowboy ever.

[984] And before that, it was the Pettus fight.

[985] The Pettus fight, he got stopped, and the Pettus fight came back better than that.

[986] He's a guy that is like the adversity builds him.

[987] Yeah.

[988] It makes him stronger.

[989] Have you ever worked with a psychological coach?

[990] Yeah, a little bit.

[991] Back when I was in Vegas, you know I originally started doing it because I broke my hand three times in a year and I was always so hesitant to throw it and I'm like it's always painful and stuff and I just like mentally couldn't get over it and I started uh that was how originally started working with a mental coach with like a sort of hypnosis but but more just getting getting to that right and mind frame like going into the ring and then I started going from there as like very specific things I wanted to work on because.

[992] because it's all about having that right mentality when you get in there or when you're getting into training as opposed to just going through the motions.

[993] And you can get very, especially when you've been doing this for so long, you can get very comfortable and too comfortable.

[994] And that's one of the problems I've had, especially being so calm as I am, it's very easy for me to just be like, oh, this is whatever, you know, like, we're just hanging out.

[995] So your mental coach would help you with your mindset for training to prepare.

[996] training as well as fighting um you know what kind of stuff did you work on like for training just just having that that that that that um like i'm here for a purpose i'm here to to very specifically build myself up get ready for this fight i'm not just here i'm not just here to work out you know it's it's the difference between working out and training right and that's something like you're very focused on the task at hand and why are you doing this you're doing this to be the best and that, like, you're getting ready for this day, you need to give it all you have at this very specific moment instead of just casually getting through the training, you know, you're doing everything you're supposed to do, but if you're not mentally doing that as well, when you get into the ring, you're going to fight in that kind of laid -back casual way, as opposed to this being this very, you know, dangerous thing you're doing.

[997] So you're training, you're specifically gearing up to an event.

[998] Yeah, like just dialing everything in, you know what I mean?

[999] And, you know, some people have more of that automatic things.

[1000] They're like, when I'm in the gym, I'm very focused, very determined.

[1001] I'm doing this for this specific goal.

[1002] But after you've been doing this for so long, it just becomes like, I'll just get through it and do it.

[1003] And you kind of almost get lazy mentally.

[1004] I've never been lazy physically.

[1005] You know, I've always pushed myself almost too much.

[1006] But mentally, there's been times when I've had those bad fights is when I've allowed myself to slip.

[1007] Whether that's because, you know, I just, the person I was fighting didn't give me enough a threat in my mind or there was things going on outside the gym of family and, you know, pets dying and things like that that kind of broke certain things to me down where I was still doing the work, but mentally I was just broken.

[1008] Yeah.

[1009] Relationships are a big one with fighters, right?

[1010] Yeah.

[1011] You know, when you see fighters, they get in a broken up relationship or they have a crazy girlfriend or something.

[1012] Yeah.

[1013] There's a lot of fighters, like, as a buddy man, used to work with fighters, and it would seem like every time his fighter was getting to get ready to compete, his girlfriend would have some fucking major drama, and she'd be waking him up in the middle of the night and screaming at him, and she just wanted a fight, like, as he was gearing up to a fight, because he was pulling away from her and concentrating more on what this event was going to be, so she didn't like the fact that he was spending less time, paying attention to her, so she started getting super needy, and it would fuck him up every time.

[1014] It's tough, man. And that's why you'll see a lot of fighters leave and go away to camps, you know, things like boxers and stuff.

[1015] They'll totally leave town and, you know, set up shop somewhere else because you have to be so focused on this one thing.

[1016] I mean, your life is on the line.

[1017] Even just in the gym, your life is on the line.

[1018] And we don't really think about it or, you know, put that much emphasis on it.

[1019] But every day we get in there, we risk injury and death, which is obviously a severe case.

[1020] But it happens definitely.

[1021] and if you're not taking the necessary precautions and going into it with that right mentality, then you can get hurt really bad.

[1022] What were you going to say?

[1023] I've been really lucky.

[1024] You know, I've been with Karen since I was 16, so he's not only been my coach, but he's also been my mind coach.

[1025] He knows me so well.

[1026] You know, he knows as soon as we're going to hit pads, if something's going on, you know, or I'm in my head or anything, he knows.

[1027] By just my body movement, he's like, hey, what's up?

[1028] What's going on?

[1029] Right.

[1030] Let's get out of your head.

[1031] on are we going to work what's the deal you know he he he knows me so well that he knows he he can see it a mile away even you know just by my texting or whatever and you know I'm really lucky and that's why it's important to have and it's like not just a great coach or a great team it's having people around you who know you know and they can see these elements that maybe someone who you haven't been around long enough wouldn't see before they might not pick up on just that's very subtle vibe you have like dude like what the hell is going on with you even though you're doing everything correctly you're training really hard but like you can see that that thing that's off in their head and like that's what's great to have people who you're friends with and have been around for a long time is like I can see that in him he can see that in me and be like dude like you know like we need to talk about something like what's going on with you and like maybe you just ease back a little bit and you need to like fix that thing whatever I mean there's so many things that could be you know I mean whether it's you overthink in the fight or whether there's something going on with someone outside the gym or you just have you just got a bad vibe or it's in it's knowing when sometimes you got to take a little step back and maybe not push yourself so hard be like hey man just ease back a little bit you know it's all about finding that winning combination whether it's you know and obviously your mindset what you need to think about is probably going to be different than gaston's completely different and probably going to be different than you know fill in the blank joe shilling's mindset everybody's got their own little weird yeah tweaky shit that you have that's why i can't just tell him oh just do this right i don't know dude yeah so like people ask me well what should i do mentally to like prepare myself i'm like i have no idea right i don't even know for myself what that is because it's a constant learning and adjusting thing it can change every camp you know people don't like that people like to be able to show up at work at nine o 'clock there's a coffee break at 10 30 you know at noon they go to lunch at 5 p .m. they go home i wish it was that easy but you don't you don't you'd hate it you'd hate it i would hate it i'm like why this is stupid everybody can do this well when you've experienced life at 10, like you guys are living, you're living this extremely dangerous, difficult, incredibly complex life.

[1032] I mean, the task of being a professional combat sports athlete is one of the most difficult jobs that is available to a person.

[1033] It really is.

[1034] It's incredibly difficult, and it's incredibly difficult psychologically.

[1035] It's not just difficult.

[1036] It's difficult across the board.

[1037] There's not a single fucking thing that's easy about it.

[1038] And to find the right formula to make that.

[1039] that thing work for you it's it's it's it's there's so much involved yeah and you really have to pay attention to it because the longer you let things slide and and don't realize like hey you're letting this slip over here the harder it is to make those adjustments that's what I was saying like every day it's you're on both sides of too much or too little of of one thing or another whether it's training whether it's your mental approach whether it's your diet whether It's how much or how little you're running.

[1040] There's so many variables that go into everything.

[1041] What about strength and conditioning?

[1042] You guys do follow a strength and conditioning routine?

[1043] Tons, tons.

[1044] What kind of stuff do you do?

[1045] Gosh, I can't even like begin to describe.

[1046] We do some debaida stuff, you know, a lot of sprints.

[1047] It just really depends.

[1048] It switches every day really for us.

[1049] And again, it's that thing where you have to find what works best for you on that day, in that moment, in that certain fight.

[1050] it's like how how much is too much how how little is too little and you're dialing that in constantly and sometimes you go to bail okay this is what I'm going to do tomorrow but then you wake up and you're like this is not going to work for me today man right so war or so like sometimes just doing it for the sake of like yeah I'm going to do it because I don't feel like I'm doing all I need to push myself sometimes that's not the wisest thing just pushing yourself for the sake of pushing yourself isn't always the right answer you know what I mean and and trying to find that is very difficult it's like I was saying before about like what injury is too bad to where you should take this fight off and what's an owie I don't know what's that what's an alley and what's an injury yeah like I stubbed my toe like going into my world title fight I busted my rib like nine days prior to I couldn't even breathe I couldn't even move for two days and like hey maybe you should not fight and yeah that went through my head of course because I couldn't do anything I couldn't even touch it but I'm always somebody like I said i'm i'm gonna do it no matter how bad was it broken what was it a intercostal tear okay so it's the tear of the tissue in between the ribs yeah that's very painful so it was when it happened my rib was sticking out like that pop it back in the place and like duct tape it down and i literally couldn't take a breath and i was like how am i gonna fight i can't even train i still got like over a week to go you know i got to make weight i got to do all these things and it's all i'm laying in bed for two days just taking these short breaths i could I couldn't lay down, I couldn't sit up, and I'm just like, I've been working so long to get to this point, and this happens to me right before.

[1051] It's like, it was brutal.

[1052] So what did you end up doing?

[1053] I fought and crushed him.

[1054] They fought that same night, too, yeah.

[1055] Did you get a cortisone shot or anything in it?

[1056] No, no. I got a lot of body work done.

[1057] I worked with my mind coach a lot, because I was just like, literally if somebody touches me, I'm done like my body's gonna fall like even if I'm mentally strong like that's what I was so worried about I was like I'm gonna go out there and this guy's gonna touch me I'm gonna fall and like oh you knock me out you know what I mean I was really worried about that but I was like well you know what he still has to do it he might go the whole fight and not even touch me you know what I mean I can't be so concerned about this one thing that I'm not gonna allow this to break me you know it's like at what point do you do allow things to break you and I'm like like there's nothing that's going to break me. There's nothing going to stop me. If I can physically get in there, I'm going to do it.

[1058] There's a fine line that people make, when they're training and they're putting together a schedule, there's a big debate, especially in MMA, over how much strength and conditioning you should do versus how much fight -specific skill training you should do.

[1059] Where do you guys fit in on that and how do you make the distinction?

[1060] I feel like this should be a balance between both, you know.

[1061] You got to know what you're...

[1062] So you think you have to do strength and conditioning?

[1063] Definitely.

[1064] Definitely.

[1065] Definitely.

[1066] Absolutely.

[1067] And then you should run.

[1068] There's a lot of fighters out there.

[1069] MMA fighters that don't run at all.

[1070] Running, running, sprinting, conditioning.

[1071] But again, it's different for every person.

[1072] Now, when you say running, do you run distances?

[1073] Do you run hills?

[1074] I remember miles at a time.

[1075] We do a lot.

[1076] Yeah.

[1077] The shortest run that I do is four miles and I, most of the times I do that twice a day.

[1078] So you run eight miles in a day?

[1079] I mean, it just really depends, you know, how I'm feeling that day.

[1080] So I go either four or, you know, whatever.

[1081] But every day I have to get my running, always I feel like I'm not training.

[1082] Really?

[1083] Yeah.

[1084] So you do the run in the morning and then you train at night?

[1085] Is that how you were doing it?

[1086] So I run.

[1087] So Monday, Monday is kind of like a, it's not as long as a day for me. Like I have like a long training session in the afternoon, but then Tuesday I run, then we do strength and conditioning.

[1088] Then they come back in the afternoon.

[1089] I hit paths.

[1090] then we all spar together, you know, so that's kind of like a longer day for me. So you have a couple days where it's just a big, brutal, crazy day.

[1091] So that's like four workouts you're doing.

[1092] You know, I mean, you're running, conditioning, run again, run again, pat work.

[1093] Sparring.

[1094] Sparring, you know, then pull -ups, neck exercises.

[1095] You know, so I just like the CrossFit in there.

[1096] I really try, I try to put everything that I can into my training.

[1097] so fight day comes I'm like there's nothing else I could have done this is it but you also have to find that balance between those things too so it's it's not like I can't 100 % crush every single thing I'm doing I can't sprint for six miles crush the pads as hard as I can spar as hard as I can kill the bag as hard as I can you know what I mean it's right what is it that you're working on in that moment you know am I just working on my technique and my things and my things footwork and my movement and as well as that.

[1098] So it's not like every time we do strength and conditioning, it's this full -on kill -yourself sprint, you know, or it might be.

[1099] And then, but later on, maybe we're doing a little more technical stuff.

[1100] So we definitely switch it up at the gym.

[1101] And how do you, man, I mean, that balance, which is, what's interesting about it is, like, how do you know the right way to go about it?

[1102] You don't.

[1103] Fador, towards the end of his career, I mean, he's obviously back now, but towards the end of his MMA career, he abandoned all strength and conditioning.

[1104] And he's just doing fight training.

[1105] He would just wrestle.

[1106] Well, again, it's what works for the individual.

[1107] You know what I mean?

[1108] Like, what I do?

[1109] It's not going to tell everyone you need to do this because then you're going to be like me. We don't have the same schedules.

[1110] Yeah, we're very different.

[1111] We do a lot of stuff together, but there's a lot of stuff we don't do the same at all.

[1112] What's the differences between you two in terms of training?

[1113] I probably don't run as much as he does anymore.

[1114] I used to.

[1115] Yeah, but the older I get, the less I'm running.

[1116] Like, I hate it.

[1117] man I hate I'm like I've done the running but is there benefit to you do I mean is there anything wrong with you not doing it I don't feel so no but but you have to find a way to make up for that you know like I know people who hardly run at all but they also find a way to supplement that right you know what I mean they might do a lot harder bag rounds or a lot more rounds you know when it comes to that where you know there's not just one thing like you have to do this this many rounds this this many miles you have to do you have to eat exactly like this you have to do it exactly like this it changes and it changes for me daily weekly uh fight every fight's different you know i might do more do less you know i've had fights where i couldn't run because i've snapped all the tendons in my ankle and i had to swim instead you know and i still felt great in that fight and i felt like i had just as much cardio and but i had to i had to make up for it somehow in another aspects of what i was doing and you're making up for this you're the one who's got this schedule in your head so there's that mind fuck of am i slacking off am i pushing myself hard enough and how do you know that kind of that kind of comes from the way i came up you know i came up with Thai trainers who didn't speak english you know i had to learn everything very much so by doing it myself and figuring it out myself you know i i never had had people telling me what to do or what i should eat what i shouldn't eat everything i've done and learned most of what i've done and learned has been by application.

[1118] I find it, it's hilarious and fun to watch when you see Thai guys training with American people and the American people don't speak Thai and the Thai guy doesn't speak English and they're trying to teach them a technique.

[1119] Yeah.

[1120] And, you know, they're just kind of like doing it with their hip and, you know, it's this weird thing where you're looking at each other and they're trying to figure out what the other guy's saying.

[1121] Well, it's interesting because I didn't, I didn't really start thinking of how complex what I was doing was until I started teaching people because I'd been doing this for almost 10 years before I actually started trying to train people and I remember the first time I taught somebody or maybe it was a seminar or something I'm like whoa just kick you know just do it do it and then I'm like oh well you gotta do this you got to do this and I'm like geez there's like 15 steps involved in just a kick well that's funny you said that because we worked out today and you're very complex I mean you got I mean we were talking just about the switch kick and I think you went on this 10 minute rant of just all the different variables that are involved in it.

[1122] It was very illuminating.

[1123] It was awesome.

[1124] I, again, it was, it was, I learned it by doing it, but it wasn't until teaching it that I had to figure out what all those steps were, and which has helped me in what I do and helped me improve a lot of the techniques I have, is realizing all the, the complexity of every technique, of every movement, and when I explain it to people, and then I train people, a lot of it.

[1125] It's just me, like, telling them how you do it.

[1126] you know where where how i learned was like just just do it like go run go kick the bag like yeah you got to fix this and like by watching and studying and and that's how really how i learned well what's interesting and maybe unfortunate is that you could train with a lot of people and they would never point out some of the stuff that you guys pointed out today yeah it's it's finding someone who's technically proficient and understands how to how to relay that information it's one of the harder parts of being a martial artists unless you're a self -starter and you just do a lot of well now today obviously when you're a day you couldn't do youtube but now you can just get online you can watch a million yeah but you might find some shitty ones too i've found some shitty ones on all sorts of things where they don't know what the fuck they're talking about on all sorts of different martial arts techniques yeah well it's the thing that kind of it's like the unfortunate part of a lot of times high level people didn't really have to learn things because it came so naturally right they didn't have to learn all the fundamental aspects that go into this technique whereas somebody that might not be as good they've studied it a lot more and that's why a lot of times you'll see not the highest level of fighters be the better coaches because they've had to study it so much more and they've had to really look into it and dissect it that much more because they weren't able to or for whatever reason do it so naturally like freddie roach yeah without a doubt he i mean he was amazing fighter but he was a good fighter really good fighter and But, you know, he wasn't Mayweather, you know what I mean, where, you know, Mayweather's probably not the best coach in the world, I don't know.

[1127] But a guy like Freddie Roach has really had to develop that and figure those things out, and he can tell somebody else, how do you do this?

[1128] This is how you do it, because I've had to figure it out.

[1129] You know what I mean?

[1130] And that's something, like, I've gone out of my way to do.

[1131] Like, it was much more natural for me to do.

[1132] But throughout the years, I've realized that, you know, and how do I tell someone how to do this.

[1133] had to figure out what those things are and how do I how do I tell someone how to do this because I can just do it just by doing it I can watch somebody do something I'm like I'm going to do it but but how do I explain this to somebody and I've had to dissect my own self and realize all these things and all these um aspects of the technique and it allows me to uh translate that to somebody else as well as um fine tune it in myself now when you guys watch mMA and you see someone like uh Stephen Thompson that has very very a few elements of Muay Thai he uses but he uses a lot of sport karate which is a completely different stance a completely different style what's your take on that when you watch that what his style or when they his style that it's Muay well they definitely don't really I mean well he uses some leg kicks and some techniques but essentially he's doing a sport karate style well it was kind of the same thing with Anderson Silva's like just because someone's throwing an elbow just because somebody has a clinch doesn't necessarily make it Muay.

[1134] There's a lot of arts that have those things, you know what I mean?

[1135] I'm not going to view him as a Muay fighter.

[1136] You didn't think of Anderson as a Muay fighter?

[1137] Not at all.

[1138] He thought of himself as a Muay fighter.

[1139] Well, that's okay.

[1140] But I wouldn't view him as a Muay fighter at all.

[1141] He view him as an MMA fighter.

[1142] I don't think anything he did was very Muay Thai.

[1143] Even his clinch was, I mean, that's such a fundamental basic clench.

[1144] You know what I mean?

[1145] That's just because everyone else was so terrible at it.

[1146] Right.

[1147] It's like grab the neck.

[1148] Like, you don't see that in high level Muay Thai.

[1149] Guys going up and grabbing each other by the neck.

[1150] It's in transition when they hurt people, when they get tired.

[1151] It's very much us struggling for dominance over under, those kind of things.

[1152] So it's like a big, sloppy, ridiculous arm bar?

[1153] Yeah, dude.

[1154] It's like, that's like day one, Muay.

[1155] So when you saw the, like, the Rich Franklin fight?

[1156] Were you going?

[1157] What in the fuck?

[1158] Like, how did he not learn this his first day in training?

[1159] And what was even worse was I had a friend that I trained with that went out to help him for the second one.

[1160] and he just didn't want to hear it like they did not want to hear that like dude you don't know what you're doing at all because as of what we talked about earlier these guys get to a high level and think that they're maybe Muay technique is good and I'm like dude you are like a kindergartner like you don't know what you're doing at all whatsoever he didn't want to listen so wow that's crazy after losing that good luck so who was it that went out with him Anthony Brown all the train partner of mine and he was specifically brought there because of his moitai yeah without doubt like why would you why would you bring you know me in if you're not going to use me i mean i've been brought in for people too and like why wouldn't you use what you've brought me in here to do you know what i mean like you brought me in for my muta for my knowledge and the thing and you just want to keep doing what you're good at like why am i here this is stupid that's unfortunate he's such a nice guy and such a smart guy too he was a math teacher without doubt how does not see the math of that it's when people aren't people have a false sense of where they're at in the sport and what they can do and like you literally know nothing but you have this mentality that you're you're decent at stand -up you're decent at moitai and you're terrible compared to someone that really does know what they're doing right you know what i mean most people's understanding is very elementary if that you know you take another person and i'm gonna i can beat you without even like touching you you know what i mean just and just let you mess yourself up because you don't really know what you're doing.

[1161] It's crazy to think that someone could reach a world championship level in something that involves Muay Thai.

[1162] But there's so many variables that go into it.

[1163] There's wrestling.

[1164] There's jiu -jitsu.

[1165] There's all these things.

[1166] You can get away with a lot more, like the striking in MMA you can get away with because of those variables, because of the smaller gloves, because of the takedowns.

[1167] You know, you put that person in the ring with even a moderately good Muay person, a moderately good boxer, they're going to get murder.

[1168] you know what I mean right right just like you can bring like a really good multi -fighter in but they don't have any wrestling defense or no jiu -jitsu they're not gonna be able to do anything exactly exactly looks like an idiot yeah it's well that's one of the appeals of MMA yeah is that the guy who wins is most likely the best fighter because if it was just Muay or if it was just wrestling or if it was just jiu -jitsu you would see someone who's the best at that but when you throw everything in like it's the kitchen sink get in there yeah and that's when, you know, you get to see, like, who's been, I mean, it's even more complex puzzle.

[1169] Yeah, well, that's why, like, I've never really understood the argument of, like, pitting this person against that person or, like, who's got the best Muay and MMA?

[1170] Well, nobody, because they're not doing Muay.

[1171] They're doing MMA.

[1172] Right.

[1173] So, so that argument, that conversation is completely invalid.

[1174] Like, oh, if you put this boxer in against this Muay fighter, who's going to win?

[1175] I don't know what rules are they fighting under.

[1176] They're fighting under Muay rules.

[1177] He's probably going to get crushed.

[1178] Right.

[1179] You know what I mean?

[1180] Well, it's interesting that Wonder Boy Thompson is going to fight Tyrone Woodley, who's the UFC Welterweight champion and who's his super powerful wrestler, but who's also training with Duke Rufus, who's obviously very talented, knows a lot about Muay Thai, great coach.

[1181] When you see a guy like that, the reason why I keep bringing up Wonderboy styles, because it's so unique.

[1182] You know, we brought up Raymond Daniels in Glory, who's one of the only guys that has like that similar background.

[1183] And then Michael Page, of course, in MMA, who fights for Bellator, has a very similar style.

[1184] too that sport karate style what are the holes in that style like what's what's the pros and cons that you see as a as a military fighter what we were speaking of earlier it's if you've never applied that in a fight a real fight not not not point sparring not not not that that kind of thing there's certain techniques and things that are completely worthless and unfortunately in a lot of those sports you're not you don't get exposed by that until it's way too So you're trying these techniques that, you know, a decent person is just going to walk right through because they look good and they're flashy and they're great on the pads and all that.

[1185] But when you have to damage someone.

[1186] Right.

[1187] Well, obviously Thompson knows how to do that, though.

[1188] Right, without a doubt.

[1189] And it's using those techniques, but applying them in a more fight -centric way.

[1190] And it's a completely different thing.

[1191] But when you see what I was trying to get at is that such a weird style where he stands sideways and he leaps in and out and he moves back and forth from the waist like a snake.

[1192] I mean, he's got a lot of, there's a lot of weirdness to the way he moves, and it's very difficult to find anybody that has that level skill with sport karate kickboxing, but also has a really good wrestling base, too.

[1193] Yeah, yeah, and I think that's one of the biggest things and why he's able to apply those things, because he can deal with the wrestling and everything else that goes in.

[1194] So that's why you'll see him throw those techniques, because he's not as worried about it as someone who, who might be just as good as him with those things and has zero ground or wrestling where they're not going to throw it because they're going to get taken down and crushed.

[1195] Yeah, it's like we were talking about your experience in a Taekwendo school that you went there and the first day you started doing sparring you through a low kick and they're like, get out of here.

[1196] Get out of here.

[1197] Time to go.

[1198] Yeah.

[1199] You're doing something too effective.

[1200] Yeah.

[1201] So being able to apply things in a real fight and being able to apply them in the air is very different.

[1202] Right.

[1203] Obviously, we see Thompson can't apply them in a real fight.

[1204] What is he doing that you see that's different?

[1205] Like, I mean, obviously he's not a Muay Thai fighter.

[1206] He's a kickboxer.

[1207] But, like, when you see that stance, that weird stance, that sideways stance, what do you think about that?

[1208] Oh, I don't think much about it because I don't watch a lot of MMA.

[1209] You don't?

[1210] I mean, I do a little bit.

[1211] I don't really, I wouldn't say I follow it.

[1212] You know what I mean?

[1213] I watch it when it's on, but I'm not, you know, like paying attention to the fighters or tracking them throughout the years, you know, that much.

[1214] I'm just so curious because you're so.

[1215] moitai.

[1216] You know, your style is so moitai and you're obviously an expert at it.

[1217] I'm always curious as to like how a person like you observes an expert striker in sort of another realm.

[1218] Well, I think he's an expert and he's become an expert striker in MMA.

[1219] So he's applying all the techniques that he knows and have worked for him in MMA.

[1220] So it's different than if he would get in the ring and do moitai.

[1221] Yeah.

[1222] How many fighters like him have done moitai?

[1223] Obviously Raymond Daniels has done kickboxing.

[1224] Some, you know, but it's another one of those things where being able to apply the things from your other sport into that.

[1225] So like we were talking about with Raymond Daniels and Nikki Holtskin, like he just walked him down and was like, bop, pop, crushing the legs.

[1226] And Valtolini too, same thing, yeah.

[1227] So at a certain level, it kind of, you lose that, like where you're spinning, flashy techniques are going to work against, you know, those mid -level guys.

[1228] But you put them in there with the best in the world.

[1229] world and a lot of that stuff gets exposed and is not working out so well and you think that essentially demonstrates the effectiveness of moitai at the highest levels you think it's the best it demonstrates the the holes and some of the stances and techniques if i'm not flinching on the things you do and don't really care so much about you hopping around and spin around i'm just walking down crushing you um you know that that's where uh that kind of gets exposed so it's like it's like putting a boxer into a moita fight all i'm gonna do is kick your legs and you can't punch me right you know what i mean but you take a boxer and teach them how to defend though those kicks and stand in a little bit more of a squared up way and where i can't use you use your weakness against you as much you're gonna have much better success even if you never throw a kick now you just can take those kicks better and just kill me with your your high level hands will you you you said that you had uh taken some boxing matches i had four boxing fights yeah and you just did it to stay active yeah i mean they were all on like a weeks notice yeah one of them was like the day i got there like well this was when i was saying i was having all those fights fall through and uh i went to this fight it was supposed to be a multi -fight and i told the promoter way ahead of time like look i've had all these fights fall through i'm not coming out there unless you have a fight for me i'm like not only do you need to have a fight for me i need you to have a backup guy for me as well he's like don't worry don't worry we got it we got it i'm like i'll call them before i went out there and be like so the guy's still gonna fight me right yeah yeah yeah you got the backup guy too right yeah yeah all right get out there well yeah they both backed out so um i don't know what we're gonna do i'm like look man day of day does that much of an issue oh yeah and i was like look if you don't get me a fighter you need to drag your ass into the ring we're gonna fight because i killed myself and you promised me we had a fight and he's like oh man i'm gonna get you something i'm get you somebody i'm like all right so i weighed in left came back he's like well we got somebody but uh he's a boxer Do you want to do a boxing fight?

[1230] And I used to carry my boxing shoes with me just in case.

[1231] And I would bring my mouthpiece and my cup to fights even if I wasn't fighting just in case.

[1232] You know, because that's ridiculous.

[1233] That's just how we came up.

[1234] You know what I mean?

[1235] And he's like, well, you can box.

[1236] And I was like, all right, all right, let's do it.

[1237] And this guy's standing right.

[1238] He was freaking out because, one, he was like 20 pounds bigger than me. I'd never boxed the day in my life before.

[1239] And he's like, what is wrong with this guy?

[1240] I was like, yeah, let's go, man. He's like, well, he's 20 pounds to everything.

[1241] I'm like, I don't care.

[1242] I'm like, let's go.

[1243] I got some shoes.

[1244] I got some gloves, let's fight.

[1245] And I went out there and knocked them out.

[1246] And, you know, that was my first time boxing ever.

[1247] But it was always like that, like a last -minute thing where I'm like, I can punch, man. Like, I'm going to do whatever I can do.

[1248] Now, you're preparing for MMA.

[1249] Yeah.

[1250] So how much different is your training now?

[1251] Are you still taking multi -fights as well?

[1252] Well, right now we're in the transition.

[1253] I just signed with belts.

[1254] We're in, you know, I don't know what's coming next if it's going to be kickboxer or MMA, but I'm definitely preparing for both.

[1255] So they haven't told you?

[1256] I don't know yet because I don't know what card I'm going to be on.

[1257] But I mean, my MMA training, even when we hit the paths, I stand differently.

[1258] I'm moved differently when I'm training for MMA.

[1259] You know, I'm doing a lot of MMA rounds, actually, with the guys from Team Sehudo.

[1260] Well, the good thing about MMA is it'll still allow you to do spinning elbows.

[1261] The bad thing about kickboxing is you can't do spinning elbows.

[1262] People don't know.

[1263] That's one of your signature techniques.

[1264] Probably your signature technique.

[1265] Probably, yeah.

[1266] I mean, you had some spectacular knockouts in Lion Fight with spinning elbows.

[1267] Thank you, man. How the fuck did they take that away?

[1268] That's ridiculous.

[1269] Yeah.

[1270] Well, you know, I'm really looking forward to doing both, to be honest.

[1271] Right.

[1272] I'm looking forward to, you know, improving on my boxing and really having to exercise that style of fighting.

[1273] And I'm really looking forward to doing MMA as well, you know.

[1274] And you were fighting 145 in Lion Fight?

[1275] 140.

[1276] 140?

[1277] So MMA, I don't know yet.

[1278] I'll probably start on 145.

[1279] then going down to 135.

[1280] You think you can make 135?

[1281] You're a big guy.

[1282] I made 139 last time.

[1283] How much you weigh right now?

[1284] Probably like 160, 158.

[1285] What the fuck?

[1286] Yeah.

[1287] God, everybody's just killing themselves.

[1288] That, to me, is one of the most unfortunate aspects of fighting, is the drastic weight cuts.

[1289] I just think the juice is not worth to squeeze.

[1290] I just feel like fighting itself is so goddamn difficult.

[1291] Like, why complicated even further by dehydrating your brain 24 hours?

[1292] hours before the fight.

[1293] Yeah, and that's why I cut down so much, and I've been working with Mike Jolte for my last three camps, and it's been great.

[1294] What has Dolce got you doing differently?

[1295] Just like the fact that he sends me all my diets, like, you know, before I, we, I have like an off -season diet as well, you know, so I'm just getting ready all year around.

[1296] So do you have like pre -prepped meals, are there in the little containers and you open them up and they're all portioned out?

[1297] Out of the cave is a meal prep company that we have out there in Dublin, and Kevin's sponsored by them too so it's really easy so I just have I get my diet from Dolce I give him my I gave out of the cave my diet and I just give my meal prep every week oh that's nice yeah that's gigantic it definitely makes it a lot easier to you know not have to worry about cooking not have to worry about any of that and just training you know eating and good that's that is gigantic yeah now what is primarily what kind of foods are you eating and do you vary that and do you have different results with different diets I my last diet was pretty good.

[1298] I would have like oats in the morning.

[1299] Oats in the morning with chia seats and hemp seats and that kind of stuff.

[1300] Then I'll have my first workout.

[1301] My second meal would be eggs.

[1302] And then at night I would have like fish or chicken or anything like that with spragus or broccoli.

[1303] I found that to be really successful, you know?

[1304] So if you do vary it, like what do you vary as far as like the fat content versus the carbohydrate content versus the protein content?

[1305] I mean, do you mess around with that at all?

[1306] I used to do mostly a paleo diet.

[1307] It was, you know, 90 % paleo except for a little bit of milk in my coffee.

[1308] But now I actually added all these grains like oats and brown rice at night, and I feel great.

[1309] You feel better with that?

[1310] I feel better with that.

[1311] What is the difference between adding the grains and the extra carbs?

[1312] I have way more energy.

[1313] Interesting.

[1314] I have a lot more energy, and my weight is even lower than it was when I was just trying to do, you know, all fruits and meats.

[1315] yeah there's a certain amount of carbohydrates that a lot of people that are involved in like very strenuous shit like whether it's uh triathletes or somewhere along those lines like there's a lot of people that try um maybe to go with a ketogenic diet i i try that a little bit and i just had no energy it did not work for me i've heard that like i was just like i felt like i was brained how long did you do it for it was like about a couple weeks and now yeah see that's the problem you're supposed to wait you're supposed to not even do anything strenuous for the first three or four weeks.

[1316] Yeah.

[1317] To your body transitions over.

[1318] But in my case, I was, you know, I'm always trying to get ready for fights.

[1319] Right.

[1320] I was just like, dude, I have no energy.

[1321] Like, I don't know what to do.

[1322] They call it the keto flu.

[1323] Yeah.

[1324] Oh, my God.

[1325] It's, I know some guys have made the transition successfully, and then they, um, they compete and they do a lot of things, burning off fats.

[1326] Yeah.

[1327] But I'm always curious about extreme people, like people that are doing ultra -marathons, people that are doing, like, things that are extreme energy.

[1328] requirements, you know.

[1329] Yeah, well, I was living with a carrying at the time, and he was like, I felt like a little bit, like, dude, what the fuck are you doing, man?

[1330] That shit's not working for you.

[1331] You need carbs, you need greens, you need, you need that stuff.

[1332] Otherwise, you're not going to have any juice, man. Well, if you talk to Mark Sisson, who he calls his diet the primal blueprint, the whole problem with the term paleo is that the Paleolithic era, they ate a lot of grains.

[1333] Yeah.

[1334] I mean, it's just not historically accurate.

[1335] It's not a good word for it.

[1336] Um, but the people that are successful with it, apparently it requires, there's a, there's a curve where you, you go through that keto flu stage for a few weeks and then you get better and then you, but I've talked to people that never get better.

[1337] I mean, I know some friends, jiu -jitsu friends that went through the whole process and didn't train hard for three or four weeks and got themselves to a state of ketosis, but just did not feel right.

[1338] Yeah.

[1339] I mean, I know it works for like power lifters and stuff like that and people like that, but it, I'm, me as a fighter.

[1340] personally experienced it for a little bit I just would not do it again well your description shows me that you didn't really get through it yeah that that's you can't do it for two weeks I mean yeah he told me like Mark Sisson when I did it he told me don't do anything hard for three weeks don't do anything he's like even if you're like on the treadmill for 45 minutes just at a slow pace that's probably too much I think that was my mistake you know I was training just as hard as I always do but trying to eat like that I was like yeah it takes your body takes your body a while apparently to make that adaptation but it is controversial.

[1341] I mean, it works for me and it works for some people, but obviously my lifestyle doesn't have the same energy requirements that your lifestyle does when training for fights.

[1342] Yeah, I mean, like all the things, you've got to find work that's how best for you.

[1343] That's why, like, you know, I'll make the adjustments I feel like I need if I feel like I need some more carbs or some more grains on a certain day or going into a certain workout.

[1344] I'm going to have them.

[1345] That's why I wouldn't say I have a specific diet because it varies, you know, it varies how I'm feeling, what's working, what's not working, you know?

[1346] Do you guys get blood work done?

[1347] Do you get your blood work checked out?

[1348] I actually have, I got a buddy in Vegas who does that.

[1349] And years back, you know, I had my blood looked out.

[1350] It was messed up, man. I had a lot of plaque in my blood and stuff.

[1351] And I was really surprised.

[1352] It looked like it was really unhealthy.

[1353] And I never would have known that if I never had gotten it done.

[1354] What were you eating at the time?

[1355] Same stuff I'm eating.

[1356] I think it was more of a hereditary thing than as far as my diet.

[1357] Really?

[1358] Yeah, and got me on a lot of, like, the red algae and, I don't remember everything, but got it completely clear.

[1359] It was just crazy to see it.

[1360] Like, I could see the blood and, like, he showed me it, like, you know, how it gets moving around.

[1361] So, like, yeah, there's a big chunk of crystals right there.

[1362] He's like, that's not good, man. If this gets so many worse, I mean, he was, like, really surprised by how bad it was.

[1363] Was this guy a doctor, or is he, like, a healer?

[1364] No, no, he was a PhD.

[1365] He's legit?

[1366] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1367] He's a lot of fucking people.

[1368] You'd be amazed, like, world -class athletes that go to quacks.

[1369] Uh -huh.

[1370] And, you know, they'll come back.

[1371] can tell you something well i'm balancing out my alkaline and my energy and my chakras you what huh what's going on yeah like i was it was it was it was nice to visibly be able to see it like him take the blood put on thing like so you can see it in a microscope looking at yourself yeah yeah wow so you're like on a projection up on the wall and uh you know i got cleared it up within like a month or two what about like vitamin supplementation or things on those lines um well now i'm hooked up with on it and all their amazing stuff so i've been i've been hooked up by taking all their multivitamins and things like that, which I think all that stuff's really amazing.

[1372] Yeah, we try.

[1373] We try to get the best shit.

[1374] Yeah, their stuff is awesome.

[1375] I mean, like, I have days, you know, towards the end of camp that I'm like, dude, like, I cannot, like, even with my diet and everything, like, you're so sore, you've busted your ass for so long, you know, you're like, I just can.

[1376] And I've taken that alpha brain stuff and, like, that stuff puts you on for sure.

[1377] Like, it's a great thing to take before workouts.

[1378] Yeah.

[1379] And a lot of people don't think of it as that because it's, you think of it.

[1380] as something for for mental energy or for your memory or for clarity?

[1381] Yeah, like I take it during sparring and I feel like I'm on like 100%.

[1382] Well, I feel like mental fatigue is a huge factor in physical fatigue.

[1383] Enormous.

[1384] Yeah, which is one of the next questions I want to talk to you guys about.

[1385] Sources of inspiration.

[1386] Do you actively seek out inspiration?

[1387] You know, personally, when I was when was it when I got knocked out, 18?

[1388] 17 when i got knocked out you know i had a really bad time uh after that you know like i said i was invincible and then i had a really bad way cut that happened and then um keryn brought out kevin to help me out so kevin's been my my inspiration for the last you know since he moved out and every every day just seeing this guy you know how hard he works and how everything he puts on the line every day like that's been my my inspiration since then you know i mean i I knew Kevin before that.

[1389] The first time I ever saw Kevin, I saw Kevin fight, I thought he was going to lose.

[1390] He fought Coke.

[1391] I was supposed to be in that car.

[1392] The fight fell through, and then I watch him.

[1393] And then I'm talking to Karen on the side.

[1394] He's like, he was betting against me, man. I was like, dude, what did you fight?

[1395] Coke.

[1396] I was like, dude.

[1397] What's his full name?

[1398] Chonawat.

[1399] Yeah.

[1400] And he, that was when I was like, damn, who's that?

[1401] Because at first I was like, dude, white boy's about to get smashed.

[1402] And Karen's like, you don't.

[1403] know Kevin Ross, dude.

[1404] I know Kevin Ross.

[1405] He's about to smash this guy.

[1406] And I was like, I was like, after the file, I was like, dude, that's my new favorite fighter.

[1407] Yeah, that's funny.

[1408] And you get to train with him.

[1409] Yeah.

[1410] What I meant was, do you seek inspiration, like do you read books about inspiration, or do you read anything about mindset or psychology or anything on those lines?

[1411] I read a lot.

[1412] I'd say more, more long lines of a biographies and stuff, like I read Mickey Ward's book, which is amazing, and, uh, um, it's that unbroken book, which is unbelievable.

[1413] What's unbroken?

[1414] It's the, they made a, Angelina Jolie made that movie about it, but it's about, uh, uh, what's that freaking guy's name?

[1415] Was it the runner guy?

[1416] Yeah, he was a runner, and then it was a World War.

[1417] That was a great movie.

[1418] I thought it was really good.

[1419] And like, oh, that was the Japanese people torture him and he wouldn't get up.

[1420] Yeah, dude.

[1421] But like, read that book.

[1422] man like like like the movie is like such a small fraction of what this dude went through and like seeing how much stuff he overcome not once not twice like every time you think there's no way this guy can overcome this did it again did it again did it again did it again like unbelievable stuff man it's one of my more favorite books um but like like people like that i'd say i'd seek that out and like look through uh look for stories of inspiration you know not just fighters but in any in any art or aspect of life in general um seeing the things that people overcome is as i said earlier you you if you go and look at anyone's story who's ever made it like you can take inspiration for them like seeing the struggles they went through uh it's it's it's unbelievable and and you know when we don't know these things we we think of ourselves as the only ones that have to overcome stuff or are dealing with things that that might have slowed us down but you're like well that guy had way worse than i ever did you know what i mean and that's why i I've always tried to be very vocal about the things I've struggled with and overcome.

[1423] And like the first highlight video I ever had done for me, it was very important for me to show myself getting knocked out and dropped and all these things.

[1424] I'm like, everyone just shows these highlights of their life.

[1425] It gives you a very skewed perception of what it is we have to deal with and go through, especially to reach a certain level.

[1426] Like, it's terrible, man. We go through a lot and people don't know it because you just see the end result of all this hard work.

[1427] You see the glamour and the lights and the highlights and stuff, but you don't know what people about overhead come with and dealt with things that would crush most people.

[1428] I think what's really important about inspirational videos and books and biographies and things on those lines is it gives you an insight into someone's perspective that you can find parallels.

[1429] You find parallels to your own life and it normalizes some things that might just seem incredibly confusing because maybe, you it's the first time you've had to overcome something that's so difficult but then you find out that other people have done it as well and it kind of yeah it you can you can take a lot of comfort in people that have gone before you yeah like we've all had to overcome something yeah you know what I mean like just sitting down and talking to somebody like hearing their story you know it's it's it's it can be very inspirational and and really help you overcome anything you might be facing and again that's why I've always been tried to be very vocal about my story and, like, share some of my fight experiences or training experience or life experiences because, you know, most people, they don't ever hear that side of fame, if you want to call it that.

[1430] Like, they don't see that.

[1431] We don't, it doesn't get put out there like the successes do.

[1432] You know, we see everyone's success.

[1433] We don't see their failures.

[1434] Well, that's one of the things that I think is interesting about you.

[1435] You're obviously a very intelligent guy, and you're a guy who's gone through a lot of things, but you're also a guy who wants other people to know that you've gone through all these things.

[1436] You're a guy who wants, you're assuming not just this role of a fighter, but you're also assuming a role as a mentor and of an example to those that are coming up.

[1437] Well, it's something that's been very important to me because, like, as I was coming up, you know, before YouTube and everything, like, I didn't really have anyone to look at me like, well, he did it.

[1438] I can do it too.

[1439] so it was very it still is very important to me one of the most important things to me to show people that they can do it you know and to to show people um when i how late i started and and where i was and the things i've overcome because when you've once you've seen that someone's done it before you or similar and overcome these things it makes it that much easier um for the next person there's a really amazing book called the rise of superman and i don't know if you read it they talk about like the leaps we've made in athletics you know they're more talking about like extreme sports and one of the things they were talking about was the you know the four minute mile and it's like that used to be physically thought of as impossible whereas now it becomes a requirement for people to do and like kids in high school are doing it where where they used to think of it it's like there's no way you can physically do this and they're they brought up I think it was like the 900 on a skateboard like it was impossible to do it's like there's no way you can do this and then uh tony hawk or whoever did it and now like eight year old kids can pull this off because you that thing that's viewed as impossible becomes the norm and as soon as that happens you can get to the next level and the next level and next level and the only way to do that is for someone to break through whatever that impossible thing is and if and if these things aren't put out there and people don't know about them you're still always viewing that that that that barrier as as this is as high as we can go in that in that sense do you think you do you think of yourself or view yourself as a part of this process a hundred percent yeah 100 percent um i've always felt like i've always known where speaking about moitza where where the sport could go um you know coming up i never thought i'd still be actively doing it while it got out there and got the exposure it's been getting recently um but i always knew i would be a person that helped it go along and that was a huge thing that kept me from ever venturing full -time into MMA or into boxing because I was like there's only a handful of us doing this, me and Joe Schilling and Tiffany and Kai and a lot of other people.

[1440] I was like if there's only a handful of us doing this at this level and going out there and taking these almost impossible fights and I leave, who's there to do this?

[1441] Who's going to do this?

[1442] Somebody's got to go through the gate and get bled up.

[1443] You know, that first person has to do it.

[1444] and I can't like pass this off on somebody else I can't give up like that's going to make it that much harder for them so yeah I've always felt like I needed to be the inspiration I wanted to see in the world do you do you find a great benefit and being able to train with him because because of that I mean before when we first started training together I would dude I would get this like adrenaline dumps when I was sparring with him I was like I was like oh my god like this is I'm sparring with Kevin Ross and then like slowly it would get better and like now we've become great training partners and he's been a huge part of my career obviously i mean yeah definitely well you're the up -and -comer you know i mean and then of course you've got guys that are coming up that are in the same place that you were a few years ago and you get to see it now that it is this sort of long crazy chain of events in this process that really essentially you only get a couple decades out of it if you're lucky if you're super super lucky and it's um it's such an unbelievably difficult endeavor to do what you guys are doing and i'm a fucking huge fan so to me this podcast was awesome i'm like a kid in the candy store i hope people got a lot out of it hey we feel the same way man we're really happy to be here and you know been wanting to do this for a really long time this is awesome let's do it again sometime man maybe maybe when you guys aren't fighting we'll do a fight companion have some fights on and come out and and and then we're talk some shit all right your Twitter is Balanos guest on but your Instagram Dream Killer underscore Bolanos And you are D'S sole assassin with a DA Soul Assassin that's my Twitter as well as my Instagram beautiful and Combat Sports Academy How do they get a hold of your your gym?

[1445] Kieran CSA gym everywhere Find it Google it You'll get there All right folks Thank you so much.

[1446] We'll be back later tonight with Wim Hof.

[1447] The Iceman returns tonight at 8 o 'clock.

[1448] Bye.