287 - MFM Guest Host Picks #10 - Kate Winkler Dawson

[0] This is exactly right.

[1] Hello and welcome to my favorite murder.

[2] I'm Kate Winkler -Dawson, and I'm honored to be the guest host this week.

[3] I'm the host of two podcasts here on the Exactly Right Network, 10Fold More Wicked, and Tenfold More Wicked Presents Wicked Words.

[4] I love to listen to my favorite murder because it reminds me that it's okay to sometimes laugh at some pretty serious subjects on my own show.

[5] And Georgia and Karen are so good at weighing that balance between humor and respect and it's good for me to remember that I can do that too.

[6] So I wanted to pick a few of the older episodes because I'm a new fan and I really just wanted an excuse to listen to some shows that they taped in the early years.

[7] The first is episode 99, the story of Irene Garza told by Georgia.

[8] I've followed this case for years.

[9] One, because I'm a Texan and I'm into Texas stories.

[10] And two, because I'm fascinated with stories where murder intersects with religion.

[11] So here's the story of Irene Garza and priest John Fight.

[12] This is a timely story because it's a cold case that finally, hopefully, this is the end, came last week.

[13] But this is a story that I've been interested in.

[14] It's one of the 48 hours, you know, we've all watched it.

[15] It's really interesting.

[16] Texas Monthly, I got a lot of this information from the Texas Monthly, which we love Texas Monthly.

[17] The best.

[18] article called Unholy Act by Pamela Kalloff, C -O -L -O -F.

[19] This is the story of a fucking priest John fight.

[20] Oh.

[21] And the murder of Irene Garza.

[22] Oh, I don't know this.

[23] Oh, honey.

[24] Oh, shit.

[25] Fucking buckle the fuck up.

[26] Buckle down, baby.

[27] Settle in.

[28] Buckle up.

[29] Hit your foot on the coffee table.

[30] Kick the coffee table as hard as you can.

[31] Kick the coffee table.

[32] Like you have a crush on.

[33] it um okay here we go okay so irene garza is born in 1934 she's this dark -haired Hispanic beauty from macallan texas it's an agricultural agricultural nope uh area agricultural agricultural agricultural thank you area south of texas in the rio grande valley five miles from the u .s mexico border in high school Irene had been crowned Miss All South Texas Sweetheart and McAllen High School where you know everyone's fucking white back then she had been the first Hispanic twirler and head drum majorette wow so she was like fucking busting down borders she's this beautiful beauty queen but she's Hispanic so it's you know a sense of pride that it's it's you know she's busting down borders she's not I mean Texas that's like blonde big teeth blue wise that's like usually what you're going to get out of a Texas beauty queen right and she is you know she's not that and she's the first in her family to graduate from college which is a super big deal huge accomplishment so at 25 years old she worked as a teacher for disadvantaged children which she took a great pride in some of her students were so poor and came from the neighborhood where she had come from and had been able to get out of that they came to school barefoot.

[34] And Irene spent her first paycheck on buying those children clothes and books.

[35] Yeah.

[36] So happens to this very day.

[37] Right.

[38] Even worse, I bet.

[39] Exactly.

[40] So she's this really big -hearted, kind person.

[41] She is gorgeous, which isn't a reason why she shouldn't be a victim, but there's just this warmth coming from her.

[42] And, you know, she had a huge future that uh that that she earned yeah what i'm saying yeah listen look look and listen stop it at the center of her life though is her uh devout catholic faith that's like her fucking thing on april 16th 1960 uh the day before fucking uh easter sunday oh okay is saturday or easter saturday called the thing it's like chill out saturday it doesn't sound like it is I don't know chill the fuck up Saturday before Easter well go ahead well good Friday good Friday good Friday is when he went up on that cross okay it might be the ascension I don't know he chilled out on Saturday he got rolled on up and then that tomb yeah and then and then he was risen on Sunday yeah but Saturday he just hung out well Saturday was all up in that tomb yeah people thinking he's dead it's over and he was like you know what I'm in a high Okay, I'm not going to get sacrilegious here.

[43] We already have.

[44] Real mad at me. It's so sad because I've had this shit drummed into my head, but then, of course, well, it would be impressive.

[45] I can't pull it out.

[46] But here's the thing.

[47] And today's the first night of Hanukkah.

[48] We rebelled against it because we hated it so much.

[49] So everything was drummed in our head.

[50] We're like, fuck you.

[51] I'm not remembering this.

[52] Yeah.

[53] And now we just don't know things.

[54] Now just the guilt remains.

[55] The guilt and the, uh, ignorance.

[56] And the really good songs.

[57] Oh, yeah.

[58] I got a bunch of those pieces flowing like a river anytime you want me to sing it to I will okay okay Barohita let's fucking do this name of prayer okay okay so on April 16th fucking lazy Saturday 1960 Irene borrows she's 25 she borrows her family car to drive to their church sacred heart church where she plans to go to confession she leaves around 630 that evening She's like mom I'll be back and a bunch of witnesses see her get to church everyone's in line for confession She gets in line as well, but no one sees her leave that church that day She never came home that night and the next morning Easter Sunday that's right as you know He is truly risen he rises and her car is still parked down the street from Sacred Heart The first clue comes two days later when one of Irene's high -heeled shoes is spotted by the side of the road and And 300 yards from there was her purse.

[59] It looks as if someone had, like, thrown it out the window of a passing car.

[60] There's no fingerprints on it.

[61] This crazy huge search ensues, including they dragged irrigation canals.

[62] They go house to house through the town.

[63] Border Patrol planes go fucking circling.

[64] 65 national guardsmen are called out to assist what became at the time the most extensive investigation in valley history.

[65] Wow.

[66] But it's not until four days later after she disappeared that Irene's body is found floating in a nearby irrigation canal.

[67] She's fully dressed except for her shoes and underwear are missing.

[68] The right side of her face is badly bruised.

[69] She had two black eyes and the autopsy reveals that she'd been beaten with a hard object and suffocated.

[70] The state of decomposition suggests that she'd been dead for fewer than four days.

[71] Maybe she had been kept somewhere for a day or so.

[72] And she had been raped while unconscious.

[73] Yeah.

[74] The local newspapers go fucking nuts with rumors and speculation.

[75] Everyone is like being fucking targeted or fingered, including this prominent local citizen who had died to a heart attack days after she disappeared, you know, or that had been transients or someone that had a crush on her because she was so beautiful, but she was also, you know, not she was dating, but not, you know, she was Catholic.

[76] You know what I mean?

[77] You're sure.

[78] Detectives question more than 500 people in the weeks following the murder, but behind the scenes, detectives, they don't talk about this in public, and the newspapers don't really talk about this.

[79] They are focusing on a 27 -year -old priest named John Fight.

[80] What?

[81] Yeah.

[82] A priest.

[83] Okay.

[84] Fight, it's F -E -I -T, had recently finished his seminary training in San Antonio, and his name kept turning up in their investigation.

[85] So he had recently come into town.

[86] He was bright and well -manored.

[87] He had dark hair and horned, riddened glasses.

[88] He looked like he'd be in Weezer.

[89] You know what I'm saying?

[90] Yes.

[91] He struck parishioners, though, as aloof and a bit of a loner and seemed ambivalent about his vocation.

[92] When he was asked why he had joined the priesthood, he said, I just want to give it a try.

[93] I'm fucking sorry but if God isn't in that sentence or Jesus or some fucking you can't say that out loud No was he new to Catholicism you gotta like be in it to win it Like if anyone asked either of us why we wanted to do true crime podcasts it would be like a passionate plea of how interested in fucking crime we are That's right and we're not And talking talking to God right Mostly talking But also like to not it's almost that very glib flippant thing of like it's here's my funny joke and like really it's none of your business right is what he's saying right which you're not supposed to say to anyone who's asking you is like being earnest and being like tell me I want to connect to you're a priest I'm looking for some fucking guidance and some wisdom can I get a fucking amen please there you go on the night of Irene's disappearance father fight had heard confessions and taken part in a midnight mass. He'd also admitted to his superiors that he had met privately with Irene in the church rectory.

[94] And I wrote in parentheses, the house.

[95] Because I didn't know what a rectory was.

[96] I thought it was an office, the church's office.

[97] I thought it was, you know, where he went and wrote out his, I thought it was an office.

[98] It's a house.

[99] Right.

[100] It didn't know that.

[101] It's the priest's house, but it's connected to the church.

[102] So it kind of is like an office.

[103] Do all the priests live there or just the, one like head priest it's um it's kind of like case by case like in my hometown at st vincent's um they live at the rectory and but you can also go there like at my mom's funeral we went to talk to the priest in the rectory okay like in downstairs office doesn't rectory sound like it should be like a side room office what sounds like factory it's where they're just turning out jesus statues all day at night.

[104] But I mean, I think it's like, it's basically, you know, the church hall is where people like have their, you know, Sunday coffee clashes or whatever.

[105] The rectory is where you go and you're like, we need to plan a funeral.

[106] We need to plan a wedding.

[107] This is some serious shit happening here.

[108] This is the business.

[109] And then upstairs, the priests live.

[110] And then it's the busy bodies next door.

[111] Yes.

[112] Making fucking, I was going to say cuggle, but they don't need cuggell.

[113] No, they actually they ban cugel long ago all right i get it so rectory is okay uh and that was viewed by other priests as really inappropriate to take anyone especially a fucking hot 25 year old lovely woman all right so so yeah because unless she has called like if it was a parish business she would have called like the lady the lady that runs the office and then like i need to make an appointment but this was for confession specifically oh yeah no you do that in the confession booth There's a booth that is titled for the thing she was doing.

[114] They had people build it right into the church.

[115] So people specifically.

[116] You can sit there and pray and then look at people getting confession.

[117] Uh -huh.

[118] That's the whole idea of confession.

[119] Well, he took her to the rectory.

[120] Gross.

[121] Pass.

[122] Okay.

[123] It's problematic.

[124] Yes, it is.

[125] Also, several churchgoers who stood in his confession line, which had fucking stalled out because he fucking picked her out and took her to the rectory to talk.

[126] Oh.

[127] That night told detectives that he seemed to have been absent from the sanctuary for long periods of time.

[128] And another priest's father, John O 'Brien, reported seeing scratches on his hands when they drank coffee together at midnight mass. Ooh.

[129] Uh -huh.

[130] Ooh.

[131] Uh -huh.

[132] Then detectives learned that on March 23rd, so that's three weeks before Irene disappeared and her body was found, that a woman had been attacked at a Catholic church 12 miles from that church.

[133] the one where Irene went to, 12 miles away.

[134] 20 -year -old college student Maria America Guerrera had visited Sacred Heart Church in Edinburgh and noticed a young man with dark hair and hornroom glasses, wheezer, sitting alone in one of the back pews.

[135] And in her mind, she was like, I think she had an immediate reaction to him.

[136] He made me nervous, but she was like, calm down, Maria, you're in the church, you're in the fucking house of God, nothing can go wrong.

[137] Right.

[138] You know, she let her guard down.

[139] which is totally understandable.

[140] In a church, of course.

[141] In a church.

[142] Yeah.

[143] When she went to the altar and knelt at the communion rail, a man grabbed her from behind and tried to put a rag over her mouth.

[144] Holy shit.

[145] Yeah.

[146] She fucking fought the shit out of him.

[147] And when he put his hand back over her mouth to silence her because she was screaming, she bit the shit out of his fingers until he drew blood.

[148] She drew blood.

[149] Yes.

[150] You know what I'm saying.

[151] Yep.

[152] She ran out the side door of the church.

[153] She escaped.

[154] And in her sworn statement, she said, that she thought her attacker was a priest that was the first feeling she got which was very controversial yes you know what I'm saying I bet because this is the 50s or the 60s this is like this is 1960s so we're technically still in the 50s so I wrote about this this is a long time before the sexual allegations against priests started to come out and people believed them that this wasn't until the 90s that these allegations came out against priests sexually amassed children and it wasn't even until way later that people believed them well and And, of course, horrible documentary.

[155] I mean, amazing documentary.

[156] I wrote this down.

[157] There is, is it the, it's, uh, deliver us from evil.

[158] And there's a guy in it that talks about when he got molested by a priest, being driven in the police, the priest's car, because they, he didn't have a dad.

[159] And so he's like, I'll take him out to ice cream or whatever, gets molested in the priest's car.

[160] The priest drops him off.

[161] He walks into the house, says to the mom, what just happened.

[162] The mother slaps him across the face and says, how dare you are.

[163] say that and then the priest continues visiting their house for years to come it's the most upsetting it's just children against adults and there's no everyone's like no fucking way it's not even children against adults it's children against god's chosen people and these highly religious people which i don't completely understand which is why i was excited to talk to you about this because you were raised Catholic, they're infallible.

[164] They are infallible.

[165] And you talking badly against a priest is talking badly against Jesus fucking Christ.

[166] That's right.

[167] Right.

[168] It's this, it's, it's like pre -Vatican two shit where it's like, it's old, like when the popes used to control everybody and they were the richest people and they fuck anything they wanted.

[169] And it was just all about power and money.

[170] And basically these, yeah, this is why people.

[171] who were pedophiles went into the priesthood, because they went in with carte blanche.

[172] And we're not saying that Catholicism is bad religion, that priests are bad people, that any, you know, I'm not talking shit on any of this.

[173] It's just this reality of a really bad period that happened that we need to acknowledge.

[174] Well, yeah, and I mean, I think at this point, it's so been acknowledged.

[175] Most of the people that I know that are good Catholics and that are faith -based, like, they don't, they still believe in, they have a relationship with God.

[176] and spirituality, but most of the adults that I know, because of the stuff that's happened in the Catholic Church are incredible.

[177] And I don't just mean like people my age.

[178] I mean like people my parents age that are just so, it's like you can't look at that power structure and go, this should continue.

[179] This is going great.

[180] They've handled stuff great.

[181] And it should continue.

[182] There's, there are very few people that feel that way.

[183] Right.

[184] Because it's just so, what a horrible thing.

[185] It's not, you can't give people absolute power like that.

[186] no no not at all especially that access that access to families but but i have to say this too like there are priests in my in st vincent's that are some of the best people i've ever met absolutely and it's just that kind of like it's almost like the bad ones steal the good yes the goodwill from the good ones definitely um because those ones it's like what what a great effect they have on people's lives yes that's how it all works definitely um so Okay, so, yeah, so this is way before any of these things came to light.

[187] So at Sunday Mass, after Irene's funeral, just to show you how protected the priests were, the priest told the congregation that he knew there were rumors that a priest was involved in Irene's murder, and he said, quote, it is impossible that a priest would commit a crime like this.

[188] Don't speak of it.

[189] Don't even let yourself think it.

[190] He said that himself.

[191] To the congregation.

[192] Uh -huh.

[193] Yeah, right.

[194] In late April, detectives drained the irrigation canal where they had found Irene's body, and on the bottom was a light green Eastman Coda Slide viewer with a long black cord.

[195] So like a slide viewer, like a picture viewer.

[196] Like one of these?

[197] Yeah, but like to the wall.

[198] Oh, okay, like a slide show thing.

[199] Yeah.

[200] We call those Cota slide viewers at our house.

[201] house you know there is a photo of it online if you look it up i mean like of the actual one so it's got it's long cord on it it's at the bottom of the irrigation canal where they think her body was thrown in really close to her and they also find a candelabra that belonged to the church john fight is like oh yeah i bought that coat of slide thing last summer he like is like oh yeah that was mine and those candelabra that candelabra belongs to the church so what he probably strangled her with and what he probably had her with a fucking head with is that the bottom of the fucking canal and he raises his fucking hand and is like that's mine wow yeah because kind of in the confidence of knowing no one can do anything about it who fucking yeah maybe who knows so finally the priest sits down with the detectives in early may he provides a of course meticulous account of his actions on Easter weekend he says that he had counseled Irene in the sacred hard rectory he said yeah I totally did that because she had some information she wanted to give me that was private so I brought her that's why I brought her in there Because the confession booth, which is a muffled closet that no one can hear from the outside of, wasn't private enough.

[202] She could only scream her confession is the problem.

[203] Jesus.

[204] No. He saw her leave, though, at whatever time.

[205] And then he had these, like, dumb excuses for why he had cuts on his hand.

[206] And he's like, and goodbye.

[207] Polygraph tests implicate him in both Irene's murder and the attack on Maria Guerrera a couple weeks.

[208] earlier.

[209] And in August, father fight is indicted for assault with intent to rape Maria Guerrera.

[210] Oh, shit.

[211] Yeah.

[212] The jury, though, motherfucking deadlocks.

[213] And the proceedings end in a mistrial.

[214] And so, rather than face a second trial, uh, in 1962, father fight pleads no contest to reduce charges of aggravated assault.

[215] Gets fine $500.

[216] And that's it.

[217] Mm -hmm.

[218] Mm -hmm.

[219] Takes that right out of the...

[220] Goodbye.

[221] He takes it right out of the church, the bucket.

[222] What do they call it?

[223] The collection place.

[224] Oh.

[225] And I'm losing all of my terminology.

[226] There you go.

[227] I mean, Jesus Christ.

[228] That's the guy.

[229] Jesus Christ.

[230] He's like, Jesus can see and hear you if you're trying to rate people in church.

[231] Clearly, yeah.

[232] So it's now alleged that the district attorney, that the district attorney at the time and church leaders cut a deal to stop the investigation into John.

[233] fight to protect the reputation of the church.

[234] Also, most elected officials at the time in the, it's the Hildigo County, we're Catholic, mostly elected leaders.

[235] Yeah.

[236] And it was at a time when none other than fucking Senator John F. Kennedy is running for the president that year, who is a fucking Catholic.

[237] That's right.

[238] It's, he's the, he's, there's never been a Catholic president before.

[239] He's the, there's only one other Catholic that had ever been.

[240] a nominee for president in one of the major parties he had lost so and like, was it Dewey?

[241] I don't remember I didn't even write it down.

[242] No, I that wasn't an honest question.

[243] I wouldn't have known.

[244] An anti -Catholic prejudice is fucking big time so they're like we need Kennedy to win, we're all fucking Catholics and let's not give them a reason to hate Catholics.

[245] Oh, okay.

[246] So like for political reasons.

[247] Yeah, including JFK being fucking elected.

[248] Wow.

[249] And like, you know, it's Texas.

[250] It's a big fucking place.

[251] God, that's so funny to think.

[252] I just always, it's just my own weird bias.

[253] Like I, I used to think everyone was Catholic.

[254] When I was a kid that I just assumed everyone was Catholic.

[255] Was there a lot of Catholic?

[256] Well, you went to a Catholic school.

[257] I went to Catholic school, but also our town was just small and mostly Christian.

[258] Although then later on I learned that there was a big bunch of Petaluma was like one of the biggest receivers of of immigrants after World War II of Jewish people who are running from the war.

[259] Refugees.

[260] Thank you.

[261] Where do they live now?

[262] They still live there.

[263] There's Jewish.

[264] A lot of Jews people?

[265] There's a couple temples in Petaluma.

[266] Yeah.

[267] Okay.

[268] Because I think one or two of the families had like chicken farms.

[269] So they're like everybody go out and work on go work on the chicken ranch.

[270] Very cool.

[271] All right.

[272] That could be a lie.

[273] No. You said it?

[274] I believe it.

[275] I'm almost positive.

[276] I read that somewhere.

[277] It's true.

[278] It feels so true.

[279] It feels really good in my heart.

[280] Great.

[281] Okay.

[282] So basically, that means no murder charges are ever filed against Father Fight.

[283] And shortly after the killing, the church transfers him to a far away monastery.

[284] So in the 60s, he spent some time at a treatment.

[285] Center for Troubled Priests in New Mexico and at monasteries in multiple states Hold the phone please I will not I want to go to a treatment center for troubled priests and kick them all in the dick right the horror movie that needs to be written out of that I mean like the children come and attack and kill them all oh my god it's like children of the corn but add a fucking monastery for troubled quote Troubled priests where it's revenge the children come out of the fields it's called you're in trouble priests you're in trouble you're in trouble I heard what you did this past summer right said Jesus said Jesus to the Lord that's fucked up who everyone in that neighborhood where that place was was just like move away well remember when we watched what was the really great documentary on Netflix over the summer the keepers yeah and they and he went and visited the house where all of the priests had gotten sent to and they lived in their own child monsters and shit keepers is still fucking great everyone should watch it it's so good listen if you want to have a binge weekend of terrible shit you should watch deliver us from evil which you just mean to you need to watch it's historical information that you need to know about it's just fucking life lessons and you just need to like calm your pessimism a little bit optimism I'm gonna say well it also there's it's that thing of it feels like a very new cultural thing where it's like everybody's got to get real with the fact that that true sociopaths and psychopaths move in this world in exactly these unexpected ways they are baseball coaches they are priests they move into their boy scout they manipulate yes and they're good at it they're good at you're not and you need to get okay with that yes you got you got you got to if you're a single parent you got to keep your eye double peeled you've got to triple check all the people that want to be in your child's life, all that stuff, which we're saying that to people who know it by heart.

[286] I mean, like that's...

[287] Yeah, but you forget that shit, man. Like, when it's you and your people and this, you know, a guy you're dating, yeah, of course it's fine.

[288] You know what I mean?

[289] It's like, of course.

[290] You don't think about it in terms of your own life.

[291] You think about it outside of you.

[292] Yes.

[293] It's just so, it's, I remember reading that Sports Illustrated thing about how many baseball coaches, like little league coaches, were.

[294] pedophiles.

[295] And it's just the most frightening and insane thing.

[296] Wait, what?

[297] I want to read that.

[298] It's you got to read it it.

[299] It's insane.

[300] I'm pretty sure it was the cover sports illustrated like 10 years ago.

[301] Oh my God, I need to read that.

[302] It's so crazy.

[303] Because it's then they're in the lives.

[304] They're right there with all the sports and everything's dude and sports and couldn't be safer.

[305] And games and we need to go to this and practices and then they then that's how they select the ones who don't have anybody that's going to come and beat the shit out of them if they do anything to the kid.

[306] They like that.

[307] That's how they spot vulnerable children and people who are, I mean, it's just the most fucked up thing.

[308] Very awful.

[309] Also, okay, also the movie Spotlight, which came out recently.

[310] Amazing.

[311] It is about that, too.

[312] So have a nice binge weekend.

[313] Oh, and then watch Bob's Burgers and Big Mouth to get yourself to feel better.

[314] Yes, Big Mouth is amazing.

[315] Big Mouth's so good.

[316] Bah, blah, blah, da, da, da, New Mexico, monasteries.

[317] Oh, here's fun.

[318] At one point.

[319] Here's fun.

[320] Here's fun.

[321] Here's fun.

[322] At one point, he served as a supervisor charged with clearing priests for assignments to churches.

[323] So the priest who got sent to the fucking, you're a terrible person, get out of this town, they're going to fucking murder you.

[324] Yeah.

[325] The attempted rapist priest.

[326] They sent onto these places in his monasteries.

[327] And our fucking friend, John Fite, was on the fucking clearinghouse to let them go back into the goddamn world.

[328] Good.

[329] This motherfucker.

[330] Yeah.

[331] Just good decisions all around being made.

[332] everybody at every level we have one open seat who should we fill with john fight wait is the devil not available okay then right so one of the men that he held clear for parish was james porter who isn't the guy from deliver us from evil but could be a child molester convicted of assaulting more than a hundred victims who was a priest he was like get him back in there yep you're in the game you're fucking Dick.

[333] Okay.

[334] John Fight left the priesthood in 1972 and moved to Phoenix, worked as an insurance salesman, got married, had kids, and grandkids, lives a fucking normal goddamn life.

[335] Whoa.

[336] Meanwhile, Irene's parents, Nick and Josephina Garza, they both passed away in the 90s without ever seeing anyone prosecuted for Irene's murder.

[337] But they were assured by people in the church that Father Fight, who they always fucking.

[338] suspected would be punished by the church if they found out anything had been had been done and they were assured that this was a bigger sentence handed than any court could hand down and so they're like okay great because they still fucking believe in the catholic church right they were fucking Catholics well yeah so april 2002 let's jump ahead okay all right good 42 years after the murder of irene garza a former monk named dale tashney who had left the priesthood more than 30 years earlier to marry suddenly he gets a fucking conscience he says that in the summer of 1963 he was asked to counsel John Fight while John stayed at the monastery where this guy Dale was a fucking priest monk during their six months of counseling John Fight told Tashney of the night that Irene died this guy called the fucking investigator and was like let me tell you something he told him that that father fight had asked her to come to the church rectory, had heard her, and had heard her confession.

[339] And after the confession, he had restrained Irene, maybe bound and gagged her.

[340] He had fondled her breasts.

[341] And before he returned to the sanctuary to hear confessions, he had moved her to the rectory basement.

[342] And later that evening, he moved her to another location.

[343] Then on Easter Sunday, so she's still alive.

[344] Then on Easter Sunday, he put Irene in a bathtub and put her.

[345] placed a bag over her head, and as he was leaving the bathroom, he heard her say, I can't breathe, I can't breathe.

[346] And then Tashney said, when he came back later on that day or early evening, he found her dead in the bathtub.

[347] And then that night, he put her in a car and took her and dropped her up along a roadside where there was a canal.

[348] Tashney had kept it to himself out of a sense of religious obligation for more than four decades.

[349] He didn't tell anyone.

[350] It's like he confessed to him and you can't.

[351] In terms of being a priest that hears confession, you're not allowed to repeat it.

[352] I mean, I feel so grateful that he came forward and said stuff, but at the same time, it's like some, this person, this man murdered, this woman, it doesn't, that's then that's not a priest.

[353] Then that's not a priest anymore the man who murdered someone is not doesn't get to have that no but everybody gets it it's not just for priests it's that's the let that's like they're talking to God through you and you don't get to intervene yeah because they're asking for forgiveness and so you have to be that no matter what somebody says to you as a priest you have to say you're forgiven he was counseling him so it wasn't confession I mean I don't know technically yeah well I bet you'd say it was just for the protection right but the other thing is wasn't She found brutally beaten.

[354] Yeah.

[355] So that's bullshit, right?

[356] She was beaten and raped while unconscious.

[357] So clearly he left some shit out.

[358] Or they just tell you everything in this article.

[359] Yeah.

[360] It's too much.

[361] But I would bet you that like, he's basically saying, well, I just did a couple of things.

[362] I walked away and she died.

[363] And then she's, I mean, it's unfortunate.

[364] Like, he's basically telling the story to this other priest.

[365] Like, too bad that happened as opposed to you finally fucking attack this woman.

[366] Well, one of the things that Tashney said was, didn't show what I would consider to be compunction or sorrow or grief or anything like that.

[367] So he had kept him to himself and then at this point in 2002 he's in his 70s and he had a change of heart and he was like I'll fucking testify like let's do this.

[368] Wow which is incredible.

[369] So Texas Rangers then begin to reinvestigate the case when he's contacted fight his now 69 year olds says that man doesn't exist anymore and he won't say anything else like the men who who raped and murdered a woman yeah he does do yeah he does sorry he's in you so rangers also interviewed father o 'brien who back then was like i saw scratches on his hands and he tells the rangers that a few months after the murder fight uh he had confronted fight about whether he had killed irene and the priest had told him everything so he too was like yep i know everything i'll fucking testify oh shit um and yeah he he'll tell everything so and i would say this too this was back i i think that people very rarely broke that like if i'm telling you if i'm giving you confession you're like basically you have to forgive me the end you don't get to say anything that's in like you know police tv shows all the time is that not true anymore well no i'm saying i think back then no one would ever break it whereas nowadays i think it's like now everyone's seeing the reason that that rule was put into place maybe not have been for the best reasons right or that there were many more people that would exploit it than anyone would expect yeah yeah that's true um so am i even catholic defensive sorry that's okay so then in july 2002 the brownsville herald ran a front page story on irene's murder and the suspicion about john fight and so hildigo county district attorney rene guerrera was asked if he planned to pursue an indictment in the case because they were like we have all this fucking evidence now, including two people who he told, murdered Irene, and they're willing to testify.

[370] And this guy, Renee, was like, can it be said, quote, can it be solved?

[371] Well, I guess if you believe that pigs can fly, anything is possible.

[372] And then he said, why would anyone be haunted by her death?

[373] She died.

[374] Her killer got away.

[375] So he fucking flippantly.

[376] Who is this guy?

[377] This guy, Renee Guerrera.

[378] He's a fucking Hildigo.

[379] No, wait.

[380] Hidalgo?

[381] Thank you.

[382] Oh, my God.

[383] I only say that because of the movie starring Vigo Mortensen about him and his horse.

[384] Hidalgo.

[385] Hidalgo, yeah.

[386] Thank you, Jesus.

[387] Yeah.

[388] So at the time.

[389] So then he got all this negative publicity, and he's like, okay, fine.

[390] Sorry, he was the prosecutor, though?

[391] He was the district attorney.

[392] Oh, okay, okay.

[393] So he got all this negative publicity because her fucking family's still alive.

[394] Her parents aren't, but the rest of her family is like, we fucking care that she died.

[395] Yeah.

[396] So in 2004, he asked, he has two of the.

[397] prosecutors present the evidence to a grand jury to indict John Fyte, but they don't fucking call either of those priests to testify, the ones who he told that he killed them.

[398] And so, of course, in 2004, the jury declined to indict him and no billed the case.

[399] So that was the chance to fucking, finally, before John Fight dies, to get him held responsible for the murder of Irene.

[400] And those two priests had said that they would testify.

[401] They wanted to.

[402] They were waiting by the fucking phone to be called up to testify.

[403] And they just didn't do it.

[404] They didn't call them.

[405] And it turns out, of course, Renee Guerrera was Catholic.

[406] Yeah.

[407] Right.

[408] So 10 fucking years later, in 2014, there was a district attorney's race in Hidalgo County.

[409] And finally, Renee gets fucking beat by Ricardo Rodriguez.

[410] And in his race, he promised he would reexamine the case of elected.

[411] Oh, shit.

[412] So fucking Ricardo is elected.

[413] Wow.

[414] They spent a year and two months reexamining the case and all the evidence and more than 57 fucking years after the murder of Irene Garza, 83 -year -old John Fyte is finally fucking arrested in Arizona for first -degree murder.

[415] Former monk Dale fucking Tashney, 88 years old, fucking testifies.

[416] Dang it.

[417] 88 years old.

[418] Now, when you say monk, does it say anything else about that, him being a monk?

[419] there's just a photo of him with that hair you know what I'm saying he's got the robes and the hair and you're like oh honey you must have been dedicated because my God he looks like he's on space balls I'm just trying to figure out what that is if he's like a Christian brother or what like his specific deal was I'm sure it's very involved but I don't understand I just knew that it was like a monk but he was like priests were hanging out with him yeah i don't know he's just in a different kind of like set up catholic thing yeah okay maybe he made wine the hair though yeah my god so dale what's up 88 year old dale testifies against him December 8th what's the date today the 12th yes December fucking 8th 2017 fucking four days ago oh shit yeah after a six -day trial in the hidalgo county courthouse in enberg a jury fucking convicted John Fight.

[420] Whoa.

[421] Now 85 year old ex -priest of murdering Irene Garza and he received a life sentence in prison.

[422] Oh my God.

[423] Yeah.

[424] This just fucking came out.

[425] That's incredible.

[426] 1960 is when it happened and fucking, what are we, 2017?

[427] Yeah.

[428] She was still alive today.

[429] Irene would be 83 years old.

[430] In a letter written to a friend right before she died, she stated that she's happier than she's ever been and said to her friend.

[431] I remember the last time we talked I told you I was afraid of death well I think I'm cured you see I've been going to communion in mass daily and you can't imagine the courage and faith and happiness it's given me and that's the story of the murder of Irene Garza by motherfucker John Fight Wow I can't believe that ended well I know right?

[432] It never happens in the Catholic Church.

[433] Every time it's a Catholic Church story.

[434] Yeah.

[435] It frustrates you.

[436] It discuss you.

[437] Well, called cases too.

[438] Goes crazy.

[439] Yeah.

[440] So he's like in one of those walkers in court that are also chairs.

[441] Yeah.

[442] You know, that you see.

[443] Yeah.

[444] Trying to look all old.

[445] And he, he, he, a couple things he said when he got arrested were like, I don't understand this happened in 1960.

[446] Like he, his excuse of, I don't understand this was happening now.

[447] This was so long ago.

[448] And this woman says to him, there's no statute of limitations on murder.

[449] Like, He's trying to play it off like, this was so long ago.

[450] Yeah, why are you guys making a big deal about this?

[451] Yeah, exactly.

[452] He's acting like a confused old man. Yeah.

[453] And he's a fucking sexual predator and murderer.

[454] Well, also...

[455] It doesn't matter how old he is.

[456] It doesn't matter how old he is.

[457] It doesn't matter what his opinion about it is.

[458] Or that he's a grandpa or whatever.

[459] It sucks for them.

[460] His confusion is not relevant.

[461] No. You already were confused.

[462] That's why you're like this.

[463] So your opinion about it and how you see it is not valid.

[464] Because according to you, no one's life matters and any woman is an object who gets to grab.

[465] A lot of people care.

[466] A lot of people care.

[467] A lot of people care and a lot of people are tired of people like that guy exploiting positions of not just power but automatic trust.

[468] It's that thing.

[469] That's what's so gross.

[470] Can you imagine going into a church or like I can't imagine going into a church and getting a creepy vibe of like oh no the guy that works here is scaring me yeah that's the exact opposite of how churches are supposed to work well there should be no such thing as automatic trust I mean it sucks but even you know you're fucking pediatrician or you're fucking you know you're um what's it called anything there's just there's no such thing anymore right and there never was we just let it happen right yeah it's it's okay to be just be aware.

[471] Be careful and thank God for the internet.

[472] And checky, checky, checky, check everyone's fucking everything.

[473] Record.

[474] Yeah.

[475] Wow, that's amazing.

[476] Yeah.

[477] Such a good story.

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[496] Goodbye.

[497] I still hear people talking about that story here in Texas, even though John Fight died in prison in 2020.

[498] Okay.

[499] For Karen, I picked episode 130, which covers the creepy, nasty case of Fred and Rosemary West in the U .K. Again, this is a story I've read about for years.

[500] I love that they covered this case because I'm not sure that everyone's heard it.

[501] And it's just so terrible.

[502] So here's the story of Fred and Rosemary West in their House of Horrors in England.

[503] So my story this week is one that we haven't done yet.

[504] it's super famous people to ask us to do it all the time and it asks us why we haven't done it great and it's another one of those ones where it's like i'm going to save it for a live show no no i want to do it a live show and it's so depressing and i don't want to do it yeah because it is the hideous and i am telling you if you have any any issues or triggers around molestation incest uh sexual abuse at all you do not want to listen the story because it's fucking terrible.

[505] It's the story of Fred and Rosemary West.

[506] Oh, yeah.

[507] It is.

[508] It's a good one.

[509] It's so, like, I have attempted to do this story, I think, like, four different times and every time I'm just like, I don't, this is awful.

[510] I want to hear it and I don't have those triggers because I'm a fucking monster who likes terrible things all the time.

[511] Right.

[512] But I can imagine you doing this at the London show and it just going quiet.

[513] Yes.

[514] But then you're like, why didn't you do it?

[515] I know, it's such a weird balance, but it's also like, yeah.

[516] for live shows we need to be able to talk to each other and like at least have a semblance of a good time and interaction and this is just all this is some of the darkest shit of all time well I must not know all the dark shit then so tell me yeah it's crazy and but the the good thing that that I was happy about is early on I tried to do a recommendation and tried to reference this show called it was a I think originally it was like a TV show show in England, starring Emily Watson called Appropriate Adult.

[517] And it stars Emily Watson, it's Dominic West, who is from the Wire, but he's an amazing British actor.

[518] And then this incredible actress who I still can't get over.

[519] Her performance, she plays Rosemary West, and her name is Monica Dolan.

[520] And she is so fucking good.

[521] I don't have a picture of her.

[522] She's so fucking good in this thing, inappropriate adult.

[523] So Emily Watson plays.

[524] Essentially, there's a thing in England.

[525] When you, they have a person that's essentially like a citizen social worker that just is there as the witness to make sure that the person when they're being interviewed by police is being treated fairly.

[526] And, and.

[527] Victim's advocate.

[528] What's that?

[529] It's a victim.

[530] Oh, you mean, but it's a murderer advocate.

[531] Exactly.

[532] It's like basically, and it's for, it's usually either for children.

[533] who've been arrested or for people who are like somehow um have it maybe a learning disability or something's wrong with them but they so they bring her they bring you know this woman in um to to be this i believe her name was janet leach and it's a true story so when it gets that part you can i would 1 ,000 % recommend appropriate adult i'm watching it it's available on iTunes dude and it's in two part.

[534] So, but it basically goes into once he's arrested and it goes into the insanity of like how the whole case kind of unfolds.

[535] Um, so anyway, that, uh, that's part of where I got this whole story.

[536] But, um, and then there was an article in the independent written by Will Bennett in October of 1995 where I got a bunch of information.

[537] Um, so we'll start with Rosemary West, uh, unlike anyone in in any i just can't like when you talk about this woman you see a picture of her stephen would you pull up a picture oh i know she's like super motherly right yes she looks like every mom from the 80s like the really big glasses and like just a short kind of reasonable hair yeah a little frump zone she's had it she's in the front zone for sure she's had some kids she's like she just yeah holy fuck yeah so she's she just looks like the average lady walking down the street with her grocery and no shame on the from zone like i have the front zone i'm the mayor of the fucking front zone so don't worry about it yeah this photo of them is just classic she took her glasses off for the photo it just looks like they're on a sears couch with the best wallpaper i've ever seen in my life in the background it looks like the fucking uh canvas we have in the yes and they use that inappropriate adult they have her sitting on a couch in front of that wallpaper like so they they clearly tried to recreate the house as it was and this house is so fucking creepy she looks cute she's got her little like dorothy hamill haircut he looks like um if um um jimaine not jane um yeah if jimine from fucking flight of the concords like really wanted to go all out and play like an ugly gross dude don't you think i think jimine clement is hot as fuck don't get me wrong no he is for sure like a leisure suit, Germain.

[538] It's like if Germain on Halloween trying to be a monster right, essentially.

[539] Because he does look a lot like he looks like a Muppets monster.

[540] His teeth are crazy.

[541] He has a unibrow.

[542] His small eyes and he just looks like he's up to no good.

[543] And that's also why he's so fascinating in an appropriate adult you get that sense of what a true psychopath he is.

[544] I've had like a crazy laugh.

[545] what i bet he had like a crazy laugh oh maybe an unexpected something you wouldn't expect like the kind of laugh that would make you leave a bar right no matter how many vodka collins you had waiting for you like kind of jar you yes so okay so rosemary was born rosemary letts in devon November 29th 1953 and of course it is it's all of these they're both of their backgrounds tragedy from jump so rosemary's parents he actually calls her Rose for the most of the time.

[546] Both of her parents suffer from mental illness.

[547] Her mother, when she's pregnant with Rose, falls into a deep depression and they give her electroshock therapy.

[548] Oh, with the baby.

[549] With the baby.

[550] So there's lots of theorizing that there was prenatal injury to her probably definitely in the brain.

[551] Because when Rose is growing up, lots of aggression, lots of temper tantrums, she's a terrible student.

[552] the parents have a terrible marriage.

[553] Her father, Bill, is a paranoid schizophrenic.

[554] Oh, fuck.

[555] Yep.

[556] So he's super violent and he is terrifying.

[557] He is just this awful presence in the home to the point where the mother moves herself and Rosemary out of the house.

[558] But in their adolescence, Rosemary moves back into the house.

[559] Oh, honey.

[560] And it's around the same.

[561] time.

[562] So she hits puberty and becomes obsessed with her body and her developing body.

[563] She has a brother that she walks around naked in front of all the time that she begins to engage in incestuous acts with.

[564] And she essentially, it's not happening out of the blue.

[565] It turns out her father has been molesting her since she was 13 years old.

[566] Of course she has.

[567] Yeah.

[568] And so Rosemary not only is obsessed with sex and and uh but she's also preoccupied with older men um and that's how she ends up meeting fred west because rosemary is 15 when she meets the 27 year old fred west shut up yeah ew yeah so she's she is a sophomore in high school and he's fucking 27 oh my god and fred one of the worst people ever to exist as a child.

[569] He was beaten and molested.

[570] When he was 17, he got into a car accident that left him with a limp and a metal plate in his head.

[571] Head injury.

[572] Right.

[573] Frential cortex.

[574] After that car accident, he was never the same.

[575] Can you imagine knowing someone had gotten a car accident or like living with them and being, they're acting really, like, that always scares me and people are like, he wasn't acting the same after that?

[576] Yeah.

[577] Like, if Vince got in a car accident and then started getting like these rage outbursts, what would I do?

[578] It happens all the it happens to people all the time i couldn't it's terrifying yeah it's really awful also he's but i don't i think that he probably wasn't the greatest before the car accident a hundred percent because he also sustained another head injury when a woman pushed him off a fire escape because he stuck his hand up her skirt uh for her can you imagine i know she's like get the fuck out of here holy shit at some point along the line he got his own sister pregnant oh no i was really trying to Georgia do a spit take with her can of wine.

[579] Not in my own house.

[580] Gross.

[581] Not in my backyard.

[582] Only on stage.

[583] Um, so then he moves to Scotland.

[584] After all that, he moves to Scotland to become an ice cream truck driver.

[585] Oh, Jesus.

[586] Uh -huh.

[587] But he comes back to England after he runs over a four -year -old child.

[588] What the fuck?

[589] So, we're on strike 19 now with Fred West.

[590] Can't just put him to sleep.

[591] No good.

[592] Um, so in the late 60s, he comes back to England and he It's a job as, of course, a builder.

[593] Because for some reason, all of these serial killers somehow go into the contracting field.

[594] That's the weirdest fucking thing.

[595] I guess it's the independent work schedule, hammers, I don't know.

[596] Barial, easy burial tools is immense.

[597] So the only good thing anyone says about him is that he's known to be a hard worker, which is like that.

[598] That's for him.

[599] Right.

[600] He's on Coke, probably.

[601] Exactly.

[602] exactly or he just loves fucking nails dig yeah um so it's around this time where he meets 15 year old hi rose hi i'm 15 hi i'm 27 yeah and but she's like well i've always had this paranoid schizophrenic molester father yeah so this is better um that horrible father objects strongly to rose is having her this relationship with this old man essentially with the crazy crazy teeth um But she basically believes that they believe that they are, like, psychically connected.

[603] And there's this part in appropriate adult.

[604] Like psychily.

[605] Right.

[606] Is really what it is.

[607] There's a part in appropriate adult where he, Fred, spoiler alert, he ends up getting arrested.

[608] He's in the police station.

[609] And he goes, oh, Rose is in the police station?

[610] And they're like, no, no, she's not here.

[611] We haven't arrested her yet.

[612] And he goes, no, she's here.

[613] And then they leave.

[614] interrogation room and she was there and no one no one in the room knew she was there except for fred so there is this they have a very odd creepy creepy creepy connection and thing so uh their relationship starts he is abusive to her of course he's sexually you know technically sexually assaulting her and raping her she's 15 right um but he's also violent with her because he's a violent person so she's uh becomes pregnant relatively soon after this affair starts um and she gives birth to their daughter in 1970 her daughter their daughter's named heather uh when when she is when rosemary 17 um Fred west already has two children Jesus from a previous relationship and at this around the same sister no no he's he's had a different relationship okay um he's sent to prison for petty theft and for fine evasion around the same time.

[615] So 17 -year -old, highly unstable, Rose, becomes mother to now three children all at once.

[616] She has to take over those other two kids?

[617] Is that what they call it, takeover?

[618] It is a full takeover.

[619] So it's two daughters, unfortunately, Charmaine and Anna Marie, are his daughters, that he had from a previous relationship with a woman named Rina Kostell.

[620] and so at some point while Fred is still in jail and Rosemary is taking care of those three kids Charmaine one of Fred's daughters disappears and when asked where she's gone Rose tells people that she's gone to Scotland to live with her biological mother so when Fred gets out of jail he comes back and they move from the house that they did live in to the now infamous house at 25 Cromwell Street in Gloucester.

[621] And the neighbors know them as slightly eccentric, but nice.

[622] People say that they're the kind of neighbors that would do anything for you.

[623] And that's because they have no fucking idea what's going on in what is actually an in truth, a complete hellhouse.

[624] Oh my God.

[625] So it turns out Rosemary is a sex worker who is working out of her own home.

[626] Okay.

[627] And they have set up the house the bedrooms are outfitted with cameras and listening devices.

[628] She's still a teenager at this point?

[629] She is, yeah, basically, you know...

[630] 18 or 19 or something.

[631] Yeah, she's in her late teens, early 20s when all this starts.

[632] So Fred can watch these sessions she's having, we'll call them sessions, with her clients from far and in the house.

[633] And if that's not dark enough for you, It's not dark enough for me. Okay.

[634] Then one of her clients is her own father, Bill.

[635] Uh -huh.

[636] Then Fred knows that.

[637] That's dark enough for me. Well, it gets darker because then Rose eventually encourages Fred to begin to sexually abuse Anna Marie.

[638] I mean, Rose would join in that.

[639] I mean, she is.

[640] What the fuck?

[641] It actually reminds me of the Ken and Barbie killers, Carlo Hulke.

[642] Right.

[643] From Canada.

[644] Like giving you a. get he she gives him the gift of her sister kind of a thing exactly oh my it's the insane sexual assaults incest just psychopaths who have no emotional fucking understanding of human emotions and it's the thing of when people when women do that that when they're mothers and they do it to their own children it truly it's this taboo that it's truly mind -blowing yeah but it's not a taboo to them because they were raped by their fathers too that's exactly it's not fucking weird exactly right it's that's that was childhood yeah for both of these people yeah um yeah oh my god no good so uh they then begin selling anna marie to pedophiles no yeah how old is she at the time i think that started when she was eight around the age of eight oh my god one will go one darker okay the grandfather was a client also so fucking rosemary's grossed rapist blessedy father.

[645] Yeah.

[646] Jesus Christ.

[647] Just the worst.

[648] This is, so again, for all the people who inquired, this is why I would, I would get to about this part and just be like, yeah, this is the worst story ever told.

[649] So eventually, Rose gets pregnant and has eight different children.

[650] Five of them are Fred West.

[651] Holy shit.

[652] Three of them are fathered by clients.

[653] They're not sure exactly who they are, but, but.

[654] Are any of them her dad?

[655] nothing I read said that but it could definitely be there were rumors that some of them were local authority figures yes so I think that's why this went like un it was rumored but it was never reported for a long time that things went on in this household for way way way too long because this was basically the sex worker of town yeah and so nobody was like but it's also like if this authority figure comes in to, you know, have sex for money with Rosemary, it's not like he knows the other shit's going on in the house.

[656] So it's not like he would have looked into it.

[657] He didn't look into, you know, you know what I mean?

[658] Right.

[659] It's not like they were getting reports and then they were ignoring them.

[660] But they also were in no way trying to look at anything that was happening in that house.

[661] Sure.

[662] Because they knew at least they were guilty of something.

[663] Right.

[664] And also there was a lot of kind of intense S &M bondage.

[665] yeah violent sex it's yeah um at one point when they live on cromwell street rina costello shows up to get her daughters back from fred okay and rina disappears uh so the mom of the two girls one of whom is xnate not around anymore that mom disappears yes oh my god so okay so in 1972 um and this is when basically it goes from the ultimate depravity within the household and within their own family and their own home and then they begin to branch out in 1972 they pick up a 17 -year -old hitchhiker named Carolyn Owens and they ask if she'll be their nanny because they have all these kids and they need extra help she says yes she finds them nice, charm, whatever and she moves into the house on Cromwell Street and after two weeks she tries to leave because of course it's fucking a living hell and insanity but Fred and Rose go out and they find her hitchhiking and they pick her back up they get her back into the car Rose begins to sexually assault her and then Fred pull as she's trying to fight Rose off Fred pulls over punches her in the face and she goes unconscious when she wakes up she's back at 25 Cromwell Street gagged hands bound being mol she's molested all night by Rose and in the morning she convinces them if they let her go she's not going to say anything to anybody but it's fine no big deal so they fucking let her go she goes straight to the cops tells them what happened the west are arrested they're charged with assault quote assault occasioning actual bodily harm and with indecent assault but Caroline's too scared to actually testify against them in court she can't handle going to court and so on January 12th 1973, the West plead guilty, but they're fined 100 pounds and released.

[666] Are you fucking kidding me?

[667] They never serve any time for that assault.

[668] And then soon after that, young girls around Gloucester begin disappearing.

[669] Most of them come from broken homes or they're single women traveling by themselves.

[670] So no one really hears much about it.

[671] Not until 1992.

[672] What?

[673] Yeah.

[674] So 72.

[675] when they first kidnapped the girls to fucking 92 which I was alive then and it wasn't that long ago 20 years these people are kind of just doing whatever Are you fucking kidding me?

[676] But here's what's happened So there's lots of rumors around town Yeah People know Is it a small town?

[677] It kind of is, right?

[678] I don't know anything about Gloucester I didn't look anything up But I, it's not big Yeah, it's like a little It's no London is what they say In my mind that I'm making up right now so finally someone goes to the police and says fred west is raping his 13 year old daughter and someone needs to do something about it um so social services starts investigating the west family and this is when it all kicks off okay um so authorities enter the home at 25 cromwell street and they find tons of insane obscene paraphernalia everywhere so it's not just like they have you know they have those rooms that are outfitted with the cameras they that where Rosemary has her clients.

[679] But they have shit everywhere.

[680] Are there photos?

[681] Oh, I don't know.

[682] I'm not the photo person.

[683] I'm going to go look.

[684] Do it.

[685] Go down.

[686] I mean, I've definitely, there's definitely a horrible wallpaper.

[687] I'll tell you that.

[688] There's some, there's some, like, each room has a different color and scheme and everything where you're like, the person that built this house is crazy.

[689] Is a monster.

[690] It doesn't care about aesthetics at all.

[691] So they basically pull the children out of the house and they are interviewed.

[692] by police and social workers and they start hearing these insane stories of sexual abuse.

[693] Poor babies.

[694] And emotional abuse and just, you know, these parents are crazy.

[695] So Fred West is arrested for raping his 13 year old daughter and Rose is arrested for child cruelty.

[696] But the 13 -year -old daughter refuses to testify against her parents.

[697] And so in June of 1993, the case falls apart.

[698] Shut up.

[699] Yeah, once again.

[700] But authorities know yeah this they're really bad shit is taking place and when they're interviewing all the children they're trying to find the daughter the yes who they said had gone back to live with her mother oh okay right right um so their police are trying now to track down heather rest fred and rose uh say that she left home in 1987 following a family disagreement but now she works at a holiday village in devonshire and that they got they get phone calls from her every once in while and they'd actually um taken a phone call from Heather in front of the children one time so that the children also said oh yes Heather called home that one time mom and dad both talked to her we didn't they didn't let us talk to her yeah um so uh then they start talking to Heather's friends and that's when they find out that 1997 it was around the time Heather started telling her friends about the insane abuse that was going on in their home um so authorities are putting together that she disappeared right around the time she started confiding to other people what was actually happening.

[701] So then all the younger West children are put into basically the British version of foster care.

[702] And...

[703] It's called foster care.

[704] They call it care.

[705] Put into care.

[706] You have to whisper it.

[707] So when they, when the kids start talking to their...

[708] The foster carers, they start telling the story about if you misbehaved at home Fred and Rosemary would tell the kids if you don't behave you're going to go under the patio where Heather is yeah and so everyone's like ding ding ding ding can you imagine if you're foster parenting or foster care you're a foster carer yeah and your kids like oh I don't want to go under the house like my sister like my sister had disappeared chills I mean horrifying so so it's almost like everyone's just going like oh what what sorry what Say that again?

[709] It's all like unfolding.

[710] Like, oh, these people who look like at the most average people.

[711] Boring even.

[712] Super boring.

[713] And it's like, oh, there's this insane, see -me underside.

[714] Yeah.

[715] So when they go, so they basically, they go in and they dig up the patio.

[716] And they find the bones of Heather West.

[717] And so, and this is where basically appropriate adult starts at Fred's arrest.

[718] No way.

[719] where he had taken them to the house and he tells police, yeah, you can come because she's buried in the backyard.

[720] Then he changes his story.

[721] Then he changes it again.

[722] He's doing all this stuff and he's trying to manipulate Janet Leach, the appropriate adult.

[723] So he's looking at her going, you should maybe check over there while he's denying that anyone's buried anywhere to the police.

[724] It's almost like he's two different people.

[725] Yeah, or nine different people.

[726] Like it's truly, truly, either it's super psychopathic manipulation, like he's masterminding it, or he's really stupid and just kind of playing it moment to moment.

[727] Yeah.

[728] It's very hard to tell.

[729] Or that thing where it's like, well, if I'm going to get fucked for this, I want all the credit.

[730] So like, here's some other shit you should go looking to.

[731] Yeah, like you, it's interesting.

[732] It's like that thing where does he like the attention?

[733] Does he like this weird relationship he's trying to build?

[734] He's clearly getting her interest because she's just supposed to be there standing there, like witnessing things and making sure the police don't abuse a person who would be right you know in custody that sure everybody would want to punch in the face several times of fucking tibbley it might help his fucking stupid looking face too knock some teeth back into place so basically because of his hints and these things where he goes he like maybe we should go down and look in the cellar and then when they get down the cellar he's like no the spirits are telling me we we shouldn't be down here so then the investigators like dig up this entire cellar and that's when they find six bodies of women buried in a circle chronologically from when they disappeared so linda goff is found in the cellar and she went missing on april 19th 1973 she was 19 years old and she was a seamstress she you know her she was close to their family her she when she disappears without a word, her mother starts asking around and the information she gets leads to the West's house on Cromwell Street.

[735] And when she knocks on the door, Rosemary is like, oh, you know, we haven't seen her.

[736] And then as Mrs. Goff is talking to her, she realizes that Rosemary is wearing Linda's slippers and cardigan.

[737] And then she looks and sees that Linda's clothes are hanging on the clothes line.

[738] So yeah, yeah, so she's like, what the fuck.

[739] Explain my thing.

[740] face right now just horror I guess horror horror horror horror horror then there's Carolyn Cooper who was 15 years old she disappeared in November of 1973 on her way to visit her grandmother in Worcester if it's the Boston pronounced I bet you it's fucking not yeah I bet it's worst to sure sauce Nancy Parkington is 21 she was a student at Exeter in December of 1973, she went home for Christmas, and then she went out to visit her school friend at 1015 on the 27th of December.

[741] She was going to catch the last bus home, never seen again.

[742] Do we think that this is all hitchhiking related?

[743] You know, I'm not sure because it's, it's some of these are these people who are traveling.

[744] Yeah.

[745] Yeah.

[746] Not just, I'm not victim blaming, but because, but I think hitchhiking was a really normal thing.

[747] And to get into a car of a couple, If you fucking watch Hounds of Love, that Australian murder I did that one time.

[748] Or any of these stories.

[749] Yeah, it's like hitchhiking was very normal.

[750] Yeah.

[751] They probably had a baby in the car with them, one of their babies.

[752] That's right.

[753] You know the story of the girl who was kept in, kept in a box under the bed, the girl in the box.

[754] That's how they got hurt too.

[755] They also found the body of 21 -year -old Swiss student, Terese Seigenthaler.

[756] she'd been studying sociology in London and she had decided to hitchhike across England and somewhere she disappeared somewhere on that trip and also a 15 -year -old named Shirley Hubbard who was last seen in November of 1974 she was from a broken home there was a couple girls who were found in that basement who had been in either foster care or their parents were divorced and they had started going to the West's house are hanging out there and and then disappeared.

[757] One of those was 18 -year -old Juanita Mott, who that was exactly her story.

[758] So those were the bodies in the cellar.

[759] And then they had also dug up the garden, which is near the patio where Heather was buried.

[760] And they found Shirley Ann Robinson, an 18 -year -old who had moved into the West's house.

[761] She started having a fair with Fred and gotten pregnant by him in May of 1978.

[762] and that's when she disappeared so she her body was in the garden so basically the police thinking that they're just looking for the missing daughter yeah discovered that basically these two people had been like these monstrous serial killers and sex abusers most of the bodies had been decapitated and dismembered thank you dismembered holy shit yeah and just clearly they there was evidence of torture.

[763] This wasn't just like a simple, you know, it was, they were the worst or the worst.

[764] They, and the problem is that they have no evidence that Rosemary's tied to any of these murders until they dig up the kitchen floor in the West's old house on Midland Avenue.

[765] Can you imagine if you're living there and you're going to knock at the door and they're like, hey, hi.

[766] Hi, real quick.

[767] Sorry, we're the police.

[768] You know, you've got a deal on this house.

[769] there's some there's a reason that you'd feel cold spots alone and bad vibes always oh no um because fred's daughter charmine's body was buried so remember when charmine disappeared because fred was in jail yeah yeah well rosemary killed her oh and then when fred got out of jail rosemary was she had hidden the body fred's the one that put the body under the kitchen floor oh my god yeah so he they were in on it together from the beginning yeah and they actually had a for there's a There's a documentary about this.

[770] There's lots of documentaries you can watch on the West, the Wests.

[771] There's two on YouTube, and one of them is about the forensic dentistry and how much it played into this case.

[772] Yeah, yeah.

[773] Because that's how they pinpointed the time of Charmaine's death, and that's how they got it to say, Rosemary is the one who was responsible, not Fred Kesee was in jail.

[774] Oh, that's good.

[775] Otherwise, they probably wouldn't have, they would have given her a plea to, like, testify against her or some shit.

[776] Like she wasn't necessarily involved or whatever.

[777] And this was like, no, no, no. She had a hand in the killing and she had a hand in this torture and all, you know, all of that.

[778] Holy shit.

[779] So eventually, Rose is charged with 10 counts of murder and Fred is charged with 12 counts of murder.

[780] And when they go to trial, so they separate the two of them.

[781] When they go to trial, Rose will not look at or interact with Fred in any way.

[782] And it basically makes him go crazy.

[783] and he freaks out and hangs himself in his cell.

[784] What?

[785] He basically doesn't, he never gets charged with anything because he commits suicide in his cell.

[786] I have never studied this murder, clearly.

[787] Or these people, you know.

[788] They're so fucking crazy and the whole thing.

[789] And his, what a dick, he fucking hanged himself?

[790] Yeah, but if you watch, like, especially an appropriate adult, his weird connection with her and his weird, like, he defends her in the beginning, he says she has nothing to do with it in the beginning and then it's just it's a classic case of that like he's the her abuser but then I think over the years she became his yeah before a suicide there's an interview with the police where he's quoted as saying you've the murders wrong nobody went through hell it was sexual encounters gone wrong so he tried to intimate that it was some kind of like sex play where people were it was voluntary up until the last minute you know that thing we're getting into getting decapitated during sex Right.

[791] And also that that accident doesn't happen 12 times, you fucking asshole.

[792] No. Here's the cool part.

[793] Carolyn Roberts, who is a hitchhiker who was afraid to testify for her own trial, came back and testified in this murder trial.

[794] And she's the reason that Rosemary West got convicted and is still in jail to this day.

[795] She's still alive.

[796] She's still in jail.

[797] Last July, she was diagnosed with glaucoma and she's going blind.

[798] and she said in a quote to the newspaper if I go blind I'm going to commit suicide and everyone's like okay yeah everyone's like that's fine the really weird thing is in 1996 they went to demolish 25 Cromwell Street it took when the old house the new house the new house that's where all the horrible things happened it took them five days to knock the house down I don't I'm not sure if I mean it was made of cement If he did so much building and burying and cementing and doing things inside the house, I mean, the whole thing was, you know, it was like this bizarre fortress that they had built and that these horrible things were happening.

[799] And of course, the police room, me, like, get rid of that as an entity.

[800] Yeah.

[801] It just, but then it just took them forever.

[802] It's like they couldn't knock it down.

[803] Yeah.

[804] So that's the quickest, most lightest, like.

[805] dipping into talking about the important things but not living in the horror show but you definitely can I mean you know I'm gonna yeah there's but there's really good I mean I appropriate adult is such an incredible um it's such an incredible way to present the story because Janet Leach is as this person who is like the you know mandated witness is sitting there and you know also it was her first case as an appropriate adult I feel like never have a first case anywhere because it's always of anything.

[806] I know, but for something like this, you'd think it would be like, you know, yeah, just standard, standard physical child abuse where she gets used to it, cuts her teeth.

[807] And there's just this amazing scene where when he starts confessing, he's saying it like, he goes, well, yeah, I did bury Heather's body under the patio.

[808] Like, he just starts talking about it like they're talking about the news.

[809] And in the background, Emily Watson playing Janet Leach is just sitting there with her face.

[810] It looks like her face is slowly dropping off of her skull because she's just like, what the fuck?

[811] And she's there as his guy.

[812] Yeah.

[813] You know, she's supposed to be his right -hand man of like, you're there if the police try to abuse me. You're there if the, and suddenly this is the monster that she has to work with.

[814] Wow.

[815] And then it basically, the story comes out through their relationship where he keeps turning to her and going, you're the only one that, you know, you're the only friend I have in the world.

[816] She's like, I'm not your friend.

[817] Yeah.

[818] It's incredible.

[819] And she has her own whole life.

[820] she has kids that like she's not getting home till late because she has to work on this case that every word she hears is like she can't unhear it and then she goes home and looks to her beautiful children they're all sitting around the dinner table it's amazing that i think that is like the best way to tell the story is through a person whose life is so horribly impacted then it goes into whole things of testifying and her selling her story because she didn't have a ton of money yeah all the judgments and it's all the therapy she's going to need afterwards insanity so crazy yeah so watch appropriate adult parts one and two i'm gonna yeah that was amazing oh so now we got that done we never have to talk about that fucking those monsters again karen great job thank you thank you that was very it has bothered me that i haven't done it just because it is one of the worst of the worst yeah and we talk about terrible stuff all the time but for some reason it's just weird that we never did that it's just so much it's just so specifically awful yeah really bad.

[821] I know this is a horrible story, but it brings up to me some really important themes like domestic violence, so I'm so glad that Karen and Georgia covered it.

[822] Thanks for listening.

[823] Again, I'm Kate Winkler -Dawson, host of Tenfold More Wicked, and Tenfold More Wicked presents wicked words where new episodes drop every Monday here on the Exactly Right Network.

[824] And if you liked your crime, check out my book, American Sherlock, Murder, Forensics, and the Birth of American CSI.

[825] And an important reminder, don't forget to stay sexy and don't get murdered.

[826] Elvis, do you want a cookie?