Sean Hayes

[0] Welcome to armchair expert.

[1] I'm Dax Shepherd.

[2] I'm joined by Monica Padman.

[3] And some elves.

[4] And there's some elves running around the attic.

[5] And they have those cute little slippers on with the little sleigh bells on them.

[6] And they're just prancing around here and making all kinds of rats.

[7] Guys, stop it.

[8] Okay, be gentle on that.

[9] Okay, sorry.

[10] Sometimes the elves, they start off cute.

[11] You like them.

[12] And then they get under your skin a little bit.

[13] They get rowdy.

[14] Their cuteness wears off.

[15] Because you start realizing they're 48 years old.

[16] the elves.

[17] They look like children.

[18] Once you start looking at their faces and see their features.

[19] Wrinkles.

[20] Yeah.

[21] Sunspots.

[22] It's unnerving.

[23] Today, Sean Hayes, Sean P. Hayes, who you love on Will and Grace, been nominated for a million Emmys.

[24] You'll find out exactly how many in the fact check.

[25] So funny.

[26] The sweetest, most generous, kind -hearted gentleman.

[27] Truly a good friend of Kristen and I's and yours.

[28] A beautiful man. Please enjoy Sean.

[29] Hayes.

[30] Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair expert early and ad free right now.

[31] Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[32] Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[33] He's an armchair expert.

[34] Hi.

[35] Hi.

[36] Sean Hayes.

[37] Welcome to armchair experts.

[38] We were just learning a lot of interesting stuff about.

[39] you one of them is that you have a pending PT appointment physical therapy at four very exciting to talk about i think a lot of fans of will and grace will want to know that you have a physical therapist you need to see sure yeah what's the injury well thanks i'm glad you asked um the it's my right knee okay yeah i i was hosting the ellen degenerous talk show oh filling in for her yep or is it your show now well that's what i thought was going to happen sure we all do right yeah right Yeah.

[40] And then Kristen actually did it the next day.

[41] Uh -huh.

[42] Did they give her the job?

[43] Yeah, I think they give her.

[44] I don't know if that's something Ellen does or not.

[45] She just says, hey, do you want to do my show now if we're not permanently?

[46] And then you go, yeah, and then you don't hear from her.

[47] A rhetorical question.

[48] It's a rhetorical question.

[49] It's like, how do you feel?

[50] Oh, is it cold in here?

[51] Yeah.

[52] Do you find it cold in here?

[53] Oh, you and Monica are going to get along two peas in a pod.

[54] Do you know the, do you know opera at all?

[55] I've been to one opera.

[56] Well, that's the end of that conversation.

[57] So, yep.

[58] The end.

[59] There's a famous...

[60] Madam Butterfly?

[61] There's a famous opera by a guy named, his last name is Manati.

[62] And it's called The Medium.

[63] And in it, there's a famous aria, and it goes, Monica, Monica, dance the world.

[64] Did we lose listeners?

[65] Oh, we'll tell you, and they all just flipped over to a difference.

[66] It didn't lose me. We're listening to Joe Rogan now.

[67] It was like, it just got a little too gay for me is what they said.

[68] I almost thought for a second you were making that up.

[69] because when you go, you go, Monica, Monica, I heard the D. And I'm like, well, it's Dax is coming next.

[70] You're going to act like there's an opera.

[71] Your brain works faster than mine.

[72] No, I don't think that's the case.

[73] And it works more egotistical than yours.

[74] Dax's does.

[75] Egotestrically.

[76] But, well, first I was like, opera, that's Italian, right?

[77] Isn't in general operas are Italian?

[78] They sing in a, for real.

[79] By the way, we're not talking about opera today.

[80] No, we can.

[81] It's too much.

[82] Stream of Conscious, whenever I hear the name, Monica, that's the name, that's the song I think.

[83] On my way here, I was like, things I want to get to.

[84] Don't care about your personal story.

[85] Absolutely not the meteoric rise of your TV show.

[86] Who cares about any of that?

[87] I got to know what he thinks about opera.

[88] And then as you're on your motorcycle.

[89] It's like, I'll be a failure if he leaves without telling us about opera.

[90] Right.

[91] No, but aren't they, they're all sung in Italian, aren't they?

[92] No, not all operas are in Italian.

[93] There's French ones.

[94] There's German ones.

[95] There's American ones.

[96] there's Spanish ones.

[97] It might completely bonkers, though, that that's the history of it that even...

[98] I think that's what people associate.

[99] There's probably...

[100] Look, I don't know the answer to that.

[101] There's probably a majority of operas that are in Italian.

[102] Oh, so you're just like Monica.

[103] It's like 99 % of people can be something.

[104] And if I say, oh, they're all blank.

[105] She's like, that's not true.

[106] One percent of the people aren't.

[107] Factual.

[108] I like to operate in stereotypes because it just cuts time down.

[109] Listen, we all got places to be.

[110] Absolutely.

[111] If I got to worry about the...

[112] exception to every rule i will never be able to make a point right you know i say tall white guys are entitled so let me ask you know no i met one who wasn't great congratulations in general tall white guys are entitled well that's true look is in the white house yeah well okay is he how tall is he okay so but you you know a lot about musical theater opera all those things because i don't know that people know this about you but you majored in college in music you wanted to be a composer of film scores.

[113] Yeah, I did.

[114] I wanted to do that.

[115] And I studied piano since I was five and probably studied about 20 years.

[116] And then I can't play nearly as well as I used to because I there's no reason.

[117] I have no outlet to play.

[118] You know, I used to run around parties and people, if people knew I played the piano, like, oh, play something.

[119] Yeah.

[120] Nothing stops a party faster than a nice classical piece.

[121] Because that's all I studied.

[122] They thought I was like, I'm going to jam, you know, rock jazz.

[123] Yeah, Billy Joel or something.

[124] Like that, I'm like, I don't...

[125] Grandor and Eddie where the populous daddy's the king and the queen of the prom.

[126] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[127] And so I was like, Kwan, don't know.

[128] And they're like, okay, well, maybe we'll ask Sean.

[129] Great party.

[130] Yeah.

[131] Now, but I would disagree in my own personal anecdotal experience at your house, which is numerous occasions you and my wife have sat down on the piano and played.

[132] One time I brought my mom to, and you guys, you'll start playing and singing and I will start crying.

[133] And I looked over at my mom and she was fully crying too.

[134] I find it to be one of the more moving thing.

[135] Even like a dead person like Meek is so moved by that.

[136] When you watch two human beings, one opens up their mouth and it falls out.

[137] And then another person just moves their hands.

[138] And like emotion and art just is generated by two human beings.

[139] When you see it, and I'm not a lofty person, I'm not being saccharin, to watch two humans, two monkeys, two primates, sit down and look at each other, click their fingers, and then fucking just this title wave of melody and emotion pour out of both of you.

[140] You'd have to be dead to not feel it.

[141] Well, thanks.

[142] You know, my anxiety takes over because you know I have a lot of it.

[143] Uh -huh.

[144] It's one of your sexiest features.

[145] That's why I'm sitting here naked during this podcast.

[146] And the caretaker takes over is like, oh, I can't imagine anybody finds anything I say, do or any talent to have interesting.

[147] Yeah.

[148] I just assume that that is boring.

[149] So why would anybody want to hear me play the piano?

[150] It's so fucking boring.

[151] Right.

[152] So many people.

[153] Uh -huh.

[154] And so I just, I start from there.

[155] Sure, sure.

[156] Well, there's no place but up from there.

[157] It's a pretty safe place to start from.

[158] So somebody says, like, play something or, yeah, I'm just like, okay, here's 10 seconds something.

[159] Because I'm mostly right about that.

[160] Because meaning people don't like it?

[161] Yeah, I know, nobody wants, I'm pretty.

[162] tune with people's attention spans and level of interest of anything anybody has to say or do at any given time.

[163] So, you know what I mean?

[164] Because most people aren't interest.

[165] Most people just want to shiny objects and move on to the next thing.

[166] Yeah, so I fundamentally disagree with you about your own assessment of that.

[167] I do think you're, this is over.

[168] Okay.

[169] All right.

[170] You know what?

[171] Fuck you.

[172] I hope you fucking, I hope the piano, whatever you call the top of it, collapses on top of you.

[173] Next time you're tuning it.

[174] Whatever the time.

[175] I hope, I hope Scotty, just find your legs dangling out of the top of your baby grand piano so tell me why you're that well i'll tell you why i think that and you've been given a lot of data that would i could see why you'd have this opinion of yourself you're very self -aware you've probably never put anyone out hyper yes but to say that your bull's eyeing it is is inaccurate so let's say that you assume people's attention span for you playing the piano is two minutes yeah it's 10 you're off on your ratio i can i can tell you having been around you a whole bunch in real life yeah that you're playing it way safer than you would need to people find you incredibly interesting articulate funny self uh well facing all those things why i came today okay for a pep talk yeah no that's very nice and i'm not looking for that but thank you and i i just look it's i don't know even what we're talking about i know what we're talking about yeah what's really funny is i don't want to hear that i have the same thing but I may I'm guessing or projecting but all you want is approval well I don't know and when you get it it's you can't even bear it well aren't you I think yes I think maybe that's why we're actors you know and performers or whatever well from my outside perspective it appears that some of us love it and can really internalize it and I think it's awesome but what you're supposed to do when somebody goes you're so funny and you're so great and so smart whatever those things you say thank you and then but that they keep going on you go, let's just move on.

[176] Well, okay, but let's just back up.

[177] You're so smart and funny.

[178] Isn't that what you were dying to hear, though, all growing up?

[179] I think so, but I don't think I need that anymore.

[180] Yes.

[181] I think my younger self craved it, and now I'm at a place where I'm just like, hey, you want to watch a movie?

[182] Right.

[183] I don't, I mean.

[184] Well, I'm going to air your dirty laundry a little bit.

[185] I'm going to expose you.

[186] The funniest thing about visiting your house is, It looks like a surgeon and his four kids live there?

[187] Well, there's that, but no. It's the most beautiful house in Los Angeles.

[188] I've also had the pleasure of being there.

[189] It is beautiful.

[190] It's incredible.

[191] Thank you.

[192] But the funniest thing that I would put up against any Saturday Night Sketch that's ever been put on the air is when you're at Sean and Scotty's house and then you say good night, there's a moment in the night where it becomes very clear that it's time to go.

[193] Because you guys rightly so are very protective of your sleep.

[194] You need to get your rest.

[195] I never sleep.

[196] That's right.

[197] So, you know, appropriately, you're very protective of it.

[198] So at any rate, you start getting a couple signals.

[199] It's time to go.

[200] So happened to us three different times where we go, okay, love you.

[201] Thanks for the dinner.

[202] What a great time.

[203] We should do this again.

[204] We walk out of your house.

[205] We get only halfway to our car.

[206] And my wife goes, oh, my God, I forgot my phone.

[207] We turn around.

[208] We walk up another 12 seconds.

[209] We knock on your door.

[210] and you guys open matching pajamas.

[211] It's impossibly funny.

[212] It's happened three times.

[213] We're like, do they wear their pajamas under their clothes?

[214] And as soon as you shut the door, you tear its break.

[215] It's a rip away.

[216] It's incredible in their matching pajamas suits.

[217] You know what it is?

[218] I say to Scotty all the time.

[219] My favorite time of every single day is at night when I don't have to talk to anybody you're seeing a bit and you just flip on the TV and sit in silence right not that has nothing with friends sure it has to do with i try to go to bed earlier now because i can't i never sleep yeah i've yelled at you a bunch of times remember when i when i when you're doing sean saves yeah is that what's called sean saves the world it was horrible yeah i no well first of all i don't think it's horrible but it was good here's the part i view i don't i how could you say that about my friend sean hayes he's never done anything horrible okay so stupidly we were in sound stages that we're literally touching each other for a full year.

[220] That's right.

[221] We're also good friends.

[222] Like, legitimate friends.

[223] Right, right.

[224] We could not find the time to see one another.

[225] Isn't that unbelievable?

[226] Over the course of a year.

[227] I know, and that right next to each other.

[228] Because you get done, you want to go in your car and you want to go home.

[229] Yes, or sprint to your trailer and take a dump and check your emails, whatever the thing is.

[230] But we did bump into each other one time.

[231] And you were telling me a story.

[232] And you just would occasionally just completely check out.

[233] You were just like, I could see it in your eyes.

[234] You'd like wander off.

[235] That's the thing about you.

[236] is you always call, by the way, that's why I'm so happy and proud of you for this podcast is because I think this is what your life's kind of been leading up to.

[237] One of the things that it's been leading up to.

[238] It was unsolicited.

[239] Yeah.

[240] Yeah.

[241] No, because you've always called me out on shit that nobody else has and you're not afraid to do it.

[242] And here's the scary part.

[243] You're always right.

[244] Oh my gosh.

[245] That's terribly flattering.

[246] Totally true.

[247] Monica hates hearing that.

[248] I know.

[249] We argue all.

[250] all day, every day.

[251] I know, but you are because you are, you know, like your little catchphrase on this podcast as it says, navigating through the messiness of being human or whatever it says.

[252] And for some reason, you're really in tune with how I think and your other friends think, but how people think.

[253] I do want to just deflect the compliment a tiny bit to say, first of all, thank you for saying that.

[254] Secondly, it's really a matter of having sat in AA meetings for 15 years and watching, at this point, thousands of people come in and try to work through a problem and navigate their way towards being honest with themselves.

[255] It's very hard.

[256] It's so much harder to be honest with ourselves than we give it credit for.

[257] It's challenging because you're receiving biochemical impulses.

[258] You're picking, you're selecting little details that are just confirmation about it.

[259] It's very hard for us to be objective.

[260] Right.

[261] But when you've seen several thousand people do it over the course of 15 years, you do get a little good at going like, oh, that's that thing.

[262] Oh, that's that.

[263] Oh, I've seen this before.

[264] Yeah, he's going to figure out eventually.

[265] I think all my shit comes from just anxiety, constant anxiety.

[266] But do you think the root of that anxiety is nature or nurture or both?

[267] Both.

[268] Both, right?

[269] Yeah, I think so because I think, you know, if you go, look, here we go.

[270] Let's go back to Illinois.

[271] So you have a bunch of brothers, right?

[272] Yeah, but here's what I was saying.

[273] As a kid, is that what we're supposed to be talking about on this podcast?

[274] You're not supposed to do anything.

[275] The people please are in you.

[276] It's very concerned that you're not following the format, but I'm telling you, there isn't a format.

[277] Why didn't like, I put my pajamas shut the door.

[278] So I'm like, please, anybody.

[279] buddy i'm exhausted i know i know you're enough everyone loves you and you can uh and also it's okay if people are upset with you no i'm good it's their problem yeah so as a kid you know my dad left when i was about five or six years old and so my mom raised five kids and he didn't get deployed right no he's not an american hero right it's worth while saying like what that means that he may call it that it's uh deployed to A bar.

[280] Yeah.

[281] No, he, he.

[282] My father got this similar draft.

[283] He, on his own accord left because I think he just woke up and was like, wait, I'm married and I have five kids and I haven't experienced life yet.

[284] So that's a good time for that to kick in.

[285] Sure.

[286] Five kids.

[287] Five kids, yeah.

[288] Three brothers and a sister, right?

[289] That's correct.

[290] I'm the youngest of five.

[291] And so, but I remember when my dad, when they were going through that, my mom, and they were yelling at each other and screaming and slamming doors.

[292] And my dad, she locked him out.

[293] so he took a bat and broke the door down.

[294] I mean, all of it's, like, so traumatic for a kid to absorb.

[295] And so my mom, every single night would sit in the living room in the dark.

[296] Couldn't be more dramatic than that.

[297] Like, why are you saying?

[298] You can turn a light on.

[299] Sure, sure.

[300] And so she sat in the dark and cried every single night.

[301] No. And every single night I would go over to her with Kleenex or I'm like, mom, do you need anything?

[302] Are you okay?

[303] And I think that's where it all comes from.

[304] Why couldn't she have done that in her fucking bedroom?

[305] Why did she have to have all you?

[306] Did she have a little bit of a martyr complex as well?

[307] Oh, 100%.

[308] Yeah, because that feels like it's really on display.

[309] Yes, totally.

[310] Yeah.

[311] Part of the reason I think my dad left too because she was always kind of like that.

[312] Yeah.

[313] Great reason to leave.

[314] But since I've known you, you've always been in long -term relationships.

[315] But I would imagine growing up married as we are to our parents, you can't escape them.

[316] And having someone that was so hard to care for that you would be super averse to commitment, but you haven't proven to be.

[317] I think that's me being self -aware about myself.

[318] It's like, sure, I would like to, you know, there's part of you that never wants to give up your youth, which entails chasing men or, in my case, women in your case.

[319] You don't want to give up the sex.

[320] Don't put me in a box.

[321] This ride's not over.

[322] But so I think I saw in Scotty something I needed, not necessarily something I wanted, although I did want him in every respect of the way.

[323] Well, there's often a huge chasm between what's good for you and what you desire, right?

[324] That's kind of what I mean that.

[325] Yeah.

[326] So I think I was at a point where I was just like, okay, enough's enough.

[327] You can spot the bad people and the bad influences that are probably fun, but not good for your soul and are going to enrich your life.

[328] So I saw that in Scott.

[329] and I was like, okay, time to pick.

[330] And I'll go a step further because I really would like to clearly point out what a catch, Scotty is.

[331] And you are not saying that.

[332] And this is how I'm going to point that out.

[333] Nicest person alive.

[334] Truly, a beautiful, beautiful human being that you're so lucky to be sharing this experience with.

[335] What that said, he's such a prick.

[336] Guy, I want to knock him out every time.

[337] I don't even remember last night.

[338] No, but what else?

[339] It's not Hayes?

[340] It's nice to no goal.

[341] and our initials together spell hi oh fantastic but but back to the um the desireability in addition quite often to them being quote fun they're also just fueling your ego in some bizarre way right totally yeah well you know it's that thing in every relationship there needs to be a crazy person and an anchor uh -huh so the crazy person and he stowed the anchor yeah because i don't know that it wouldn't work you know but doing well i don't know i'll speak for myself i also in relationships i have a low opinion of myself so if i can get somebody that i've recognized as being higher status than me then i'll i'll somehow prove to myself i'm better yeah because why would this person have picked me totally but then i'm then with them i still don't like myself so now they're just this person who's probably nuts or whatever it is so that's what i mean kind of in the ego part of it too is like you're often with people for a very selfish weird bizarre reason to make yourself feel you know i agree with that And at the same time, like for Scotty, you know, the love is so deep and I care for him so deeply that what you just said, but also turns to, gosh, I would give up anything to help this person.

[342] Not for my own ego, but.

[343] Yeah.

[344] Well, what's really bizarre is the difference between a very good relationship and one that's probably not good is that through being with somebody for the right reasons, weirdly, your self -esteem does go up.

[345] So the thing you're like, you thought you could achieve by getting some flashy status -heavy person always backfires.

[346] But then this thing where you actually like them for a genuine reason and then you want to be of service to them and help them and protect them and take care of them, all of a sudden you look in the mirror and you're like, oh, wow, I do like this person.

[347] Right.

[348] It's counterintuitive.

[349] Yeah.

[350] Yeah.

[351] No, I try not to think that, too.

[352] Okay.

[353] But you're the youngest and you have three older brothers.

[354] Yeah.

[355] Yeah.

[356] And they were boy boys from what you've told me, right?

[357] They still are.

[358] Farted in each other's faces and stuff.

[359] Pin me down, spit my face, you know, which I didn't like until I was older, but, yeah.

[360] No, you know, that drool thing that you did?

[361] Mm -hmm.

[362] I mean, they would all pin me. I remember they pinned me down and forced to shave me when I didn't really have growth yet on my face.

[363] Okay.

[364] And there's a brilliant.

[365] Did they ever cut you?

[366] No, no, no. Oh, okay.

[367] No, there was, we weren't really parented, so we kind of have a parented ourselves, you know?

[368] Yeah.

[369] Although my mom was amazing, but she was working, and so.

[370] What did she do?

[371] She had a choice when we were extremely young to either have an office job or take a not -for -profit position at a food bank that feeds the poor and the homeless.

[372] Of course, that's the one she picked.

[373] She did.

[374] Yeah.

[375] So for 25, 30 years, she worked at a food bank that supply, the northern Illinois food bank.

[376] It was part of the second harvest.

[377] So safe to assume you guys.

[378] weren't in high cotton.

[379] It's not like you had the coolest tennis shoes every spring, did you?

[380] One winter we had the heat turned off in Chicago.

[381] And you could see our breath in the house.

[382] Oh, Jesus.

[383] And I'd get ready for school and I'd have to like wash my hair in the sink and the freezing.

[384] You know, it was awful.

[385] And then we had a phone turned off and the car we possessed and the house remorgeted.

[386] It was nuts.

[387] I'll speak for myself.

[388] I'm obsessed with money.

[389] Yes.

[390] And I think that some of our funest conversations have been about money.

[391] 100%.

[392] We're super obsessed with it.

[393] I have to imagine it stems from that childhood with no heat, right?

[394] Totally.

[395] And you never want to go without heat again.

[396] So much so that it becomes a little bit of an obsession.

[397] It also creates a good work ethic.

[398] It does.

[399] As with everything, it's usually a double -edged sword.

[400] And so the good thing is you're very productive.

[401] Yeah, yeah.

[402] The bad thing is, is you've pretty much built your entire life over the one winner you didn't have heat, which amounted to maybe a month of your life.

[403] You've now built 46 years off of.

[404] like it's preposterous that's so true yeah me too i mean there was a bunch i know what you're saying but there there there's years of like and somebody's always better off somebody's always worse off but we we it's hard to see someone's worse off yeah i guess i don't know but we still had a house yeah big time a lot of people were in their cars seeing their breath yeah it's true right it's true run their bicycles anyone live in bicycles you never hear no one's like if anyone's trying to outpour it's someone else like we we slept in our car most nights we slept on our bicycles most nights You guys had a car.

[405] Did you ever feel...

[406] Oh, wait.

[407] Yeah, I'm here.

[408] I just arrived.

[409] Did you ever feel resentful, knowing that maybe you could have had more if she wasn't kind of busy helping other people?

[410] Like, that sounds crazy.

[411] No, I never felt that until, in a funny way, just like, because she just passed away in January.

[412] Thank you.

[413] She, in a funny way, I look back.

[414] I'm like, why did you Zig when you should have Zach?

[415] To look at the office job.

[416] Right.

[417] I mean, but my God, you can't think that.

[418] Look at all the great things she did from it.

[419] And what we learned from her helping the poor and the homeless, you know.

[420] That's just in a jokey way.

[421] It's like, it's funny.

[422] But like logically you can say that, but emotionally, I would have a hard.

[423] I would have had a hard time with that.

[424] Yeah, I would go.

[425] I would go office job, though.

[426] You know what I mean?

[427] It was office.

[428] And then, yes, she did everything else to, you know, volunteer to feed the porn and the homeless through the company that she worked at.

[429] But it wasn't, I didn't think of her like on the street actually supplying soup to people.

[430] Sure.

[431] It was an office gig.

[432] Yeah.

[433] But for that company.

[434] Now, I can only imagine this because I have no experience with it specifically the way you do.

[435] But my assumption would be, it would be hard enough to be gay in the Midwest in the 80s.

[436] Yeah.

[437] Going to school and none of your classmates are open.

[438] I have to imagine it would be compounded by also being in a family of all boys that are just straight up, straight dudes.

[439] Yeah.

[440] Jax.

[441] athletes so because it's one thing to feel like oh i'm dissimilar from my classmates but at least they're strangers but oh i'm also dissimilar from my family yeah no i think growing up the way i did and then on top of that being gay you know put the fight in me right fight or flight and you either you choose and i i chose that at some point i think i was in college where it was like okay i'm on my own because i came out my mom was like you're going to hell and you know she came around like total 180.

[442] And then she was like, the initial was like, okay, I don't have a mom, I don't have a dad.

[443] And you don't have society and you don't have.

[444] What did your brothers think?

[445] You know, different reactions, but mostly cool.

[446] Uh -huh.

[447] Yeah.

[448] It's cool as they could be to me, probably and not to their friends about it, you know, but who knows?

[449] I never asked them about that.

[450] And if you could rank it, who, it's easiest to come out to your sister maybe?

[451] Oh, totally.

[452] And then who's next?

[453] Mom or brothers?

[454] Well, definitely not my mom.

[455] Which has nothing to do with him.

[456] I think it was full of everything, of the society.

[457] But mom's number one.

[458] That's the last person you want to.

[459] Yeah, yeah, of course, yeah.

[460] And then you know, you also, it's like, even when you started just saying being gay, and it's in my DNA to the second you just asked me, so being gay growing up, and you go, you know, you freak out a little bit like, oh, you just said that.

[461] And I'm the, is that who's going to, is that okay?

[462] You know what I mean?

[463] You start, you still freak out about it.

[464] Everybody's got something.

[465] Absolutely.

[466] It's not, you know, out here.

[467] It's like being, who cares if you're gay?

[468] Like, it's totally normal.

[469] One winner without heat changes the course of your life.

[470] 100%.

[471] So, yeah, great.

[472] You're in L .A. now and you have money and shit and you have, you know, cultural and political capital.

[473] It's fine for you to be gay.

[474] You know, 25 of those years, you don't have any of those things.

[475] You're very disenfranchised.

[476] So if one winner can change your life, certainly 25 years of feeling like I have to hide something, you will never hear you're gay probably and feel great about that.

[477] that topic right because it's so embedded yeah but you know i don't know why this is at some point i wanted to make it other people's problem and not mine you know how do you do that by i don't know by plowing through and being strong and and not being apologetic about it i guess yet i was still afraid of it it is a weird thing some days you're afraid of it some days you're like well screw it's not my problem it's yours yeah i guess it just depends on that is the frustrating thing about being a is you can have a realization over and over again every week.

[478] And every week is the same realization.

[479] It's just as profound.

[480] And then by Wednesday you've forgotten it and you're the victim of this thing again.

[481] It's like it's not, these aren't permanent.

[482] Like me, I said I was an alcoholic 15 years ago, but I have to do it every morning.

[483] Because I will forget.

[484] I literally will forget.

[485] I think I'm gay sometimes.

[486] Do you?

[487] Oh.

[488] Sometimes I'll be fucking a woman, like a beautiful woman.

[489] And I'm inside of her and I'll go, wait a wait, wait, wait, hold up.

[490] What's off?

[491] I was just going to ask if you had sex with a woman But then I felt like, you know what I felt like that was?

[492] What?

[493] You can ask me. Okay.

[494] I have been guilty of this.

[495] In the past, whenever they would interview someone who was a transsexual.

[496] Yeah.

[497] The first preoccupation, the curiosity is, did you remove your genitals?

[498] Right, because they now want to picture what you look like naked.

[499] Yeah, there's that.

[500] And I guess also you want to know, like, well, how committed are you to this?

[501] How far has it gone?

[502] Did you go through that whole, like, psychological?

[503] thing for five years or whatever and it was through listening to stern where he course would ask that in the past and now he's like evolved on it and i recognize what a preposterously inappropriate question to ask someone about their genitals like i would never say to you sean what's the length of your dick but that's even a step beyond that to say have you had your penis removed yet we feel very entitled to that information so anyways i was just about to ask you have you ever had sex with a girl and i thought oh am i falling into one of these things we're like a straight dude i don't know but I tried to police myself.

[504] I'm inches away from death at my age.

[505] No, I've never had sex with a woman.

[506] Did you have a girlfriend, though, in high school ever?

[507] No, I had one, and wait, back to the other thing.

[508] Somebody asked me in high school once because I was always kind of just like obnoxious and I would like fall down on purpose with all my books flying everywhere and somebody wanted to beat me up for it and other people would laugh, you know?

[509] Yeah.

[510] And so this one girl says like, you're so weird.

[511] I'm like, okay, let me just be like everybody else then.

[512] And I just stood there and stared at her blankly.

[513] like why be boring yeah you know and that's kind of one also another fear of mine is being boring like being totally boring that was the greatest line in american beauty do you remember that what was it the love affair between the guy who filmed the bags that was floating around and then the girl yeah west bentley and the beautiful girl and he said you're anything but boring like their ultimate fear would be that they were being they're boring yeah right and i was like oh that was me in high school i just wanted to not be boring or right but no i never had sex with a woman.

[514] I always, even today, I'm like, I'm scared, like, I don't, I don't understand it.

[515] Also, you know, it didn't help when I was younger and some of my brothers would come, come home and be like, dude, smell my fingers, sure.

[516] It's just so gross.

[517] And I was like, okay, so that just solidified it for me. You know, I was like, why would I then want to do that?

[518] Sure, sure, sure.

[519] Well, yeah.

[520] You know.

[521] But I were really quick before we, we were really quick before we, we, I want to know what your role was in that.

[522] You were the baby of the family.

[523] Did they treat you like a baby?

[524] Like did they take care of you and look out for you?

[525] No, my mom probably did a little bit.

[526] But no, like I said, we were kind of all on our own and parented ourselves.

[527] Were you the family jester, though?

[528] Probably a little bit.

[529] But everybody was funny in their own way.

[530] I mean, it's so cliche.

[531] That's how we dealt with all the pain that we went through.

[532] It was so sarcastic and constantly funny and horrible, like, praying.

[533] and I guess what I'm curious about is did your was your sense of humor forged in trying to mitigate stress around you or like alleviate tension now that I look back of course it was okay yeah then I'm just curious if that was your role like we see I have old footage I'll show you when we're done of me as a kid just smiling and laughing through everything like a maniacal yeah Sean it was and I'm just like I'm gay I'm ugly I have glasses I people find find out they're going to murder me and yeah I can see my breath stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare what's up guys it's your girl Kiki and my podcast is back with a new season and let me tell you it's too good and I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest okay every episode I bring on a friend and have a real conversation and I don't mean just friends I mean the likes of Amy Polar Kell Mitchell Vivica Fox the list goes on So follow, watch, and listen to Baby.

[534] This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app, or wherever you get your podcast.

[535] We've all been there.

[536] Turning to the internet to self -diagnose our inexplicable pains, debilitating body aches, sudden fevers, and strange rashes.

[537] Though our minds tend to spiral to worst -case scenarios, it's usually nothing.

[538] But for an unlucky few, these unsuspecting symptoms can start the clock ticking on a terrifying medical mystery.

[539] Like the unexplainable death of a. retired firefighter, whose body was found at home by his son, except it looked like he had been cremated, or the time when an entire town started jumping from buildings and seeing tigers on their ceilings.

[540] Hey listeners, it's Mr. Ballin here, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast.

[541] It's called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries.

[542] Each terrifying true story will be sure to keep you up at night.

[543] Follow Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts.

[544] Prime members can listen early and ad -free on Amazon Music.

[545] It's the end of The Shining, and that's my dad coming up with an axe.

[546] Now, after he left at five, did you see him again?

[547] Would you seem like every other weekend or never?

[548] He kind of came and went like over the next, course of the next five, six years, totally.

[549] Really?

[550] Yeah, for like a shower or like a meal.

[551] Cook eggs.

[552] And I remember he always used to come home late at night and my dad drunk and making like an egg sandwich, right?

[553] Oh, God.

[554] And soup or something.

[555] Such a drunk guy thing to make.

[556] Isn't it?

[557] And my brother held the handle of the spoon under the fire for a really long time and then placed it there, right?

[558] And so my dad came back and said, Motherfuck, what the fuck?

[559] You're fucking kids.

[560] I fucking hate you.

[561] You're right.

[562] Oh, my goodness.

[563] And then one time he was really drunk and he, the kitchen floor had those linoleum square tiles, you know.

[564] Uh -huh.

[565] And he, in his drunken state, nobody did the dishes.

[566] So he took every single dirty dish and put it on every square on the kitchen floor.

[567] Like beautiful mind style.

[568] Like maybe he was a mathematician we didn't know about.

[569] Maybe I should contact him.

[570] Now, in your adult years, when you became famous and had money, did he try to find you?

[571] Or was he dead?

[572] When I first started to become my publicly known figure.

[573] Uh -huh.

[574] I felt bad because the National Enquirer kind of followed him around.

[575] Oh, they did?

[576] Yeah.

[577] Oh.

[578] They knew this story.

[579] It's an old story now.

[580] This has been everywhere.

[581] But, yeah, so he contacted me a little bit.

[582] Then he didn't.

[583] And now he does.

[584] And I don't know.

[585] Oh, he's still alive.

[586] Yeah, he's still alive, yeah.

[587] He's 83 or something like that.

[588] Isn't it wild, though, I think about this a lot that I, while I'm on this earth and alive, I will never know the feeling of having a father.

[589] Right.

[590] You know what I mean?

[591] I'll never know what it's like to have a male figure.

[592] I think that's why, even in you, even in my friend Dax, I see in every straight male.

[593] A potential father figure?

[594] 100%.

[595] Yeah.

[596] Do you do that to director?

[597] I do that to directors.

[598] I do it to every straight male.

[599] Ah, interesting.

[600] It doesn't matter if you're 11 years old or 85 years old.

[601] Yeah.

[602] I look for approval.

[603] Isn't that sick?

[604] I'll look for approval sometime.

[605] It's subconsciously from a teenager, like a teenage guy.

[606] Sean, why do you think I have tattoos and ride motorcycles and do wheelies and things?

[607] I'm just endlessly in need of male approval going, good job, you're cool, you know, because, yeah, I wasn't getting it as a kid from a, from a guy.

[608] guy but do you think that most guys do get that you know again like you i'm trapped in my own perspective of not having gotten it but i i it seems to me i have friends who aren't on a quest to get approval from other men and they did have good dads so i think it's probably a pretty relevant factor in that yeah because as an outsider as a gay guy outsider looking into the the dude world yeah you all seem to get along famously well you know what i mean that's a side conversation that monica and i sometimes argue about But, yeah, I do think in general, dudes can get along better.

[609] Because you all have vaginas and...

[610] And worst case scenario, you start talking about boobs or vagina, and you got a good hour of conversation on your hand.

[611] Right.

[612] Hey guys, dick and...

[613] Yeah, bathhouses and smelling salts and...

[614] Smelling salts.

[615] Hello, right this way.

[616] Would you like to smell our bathing salts?

[617] It's funny, because I've heard you say this stuff before, but you...

[618] It's something I respect about you.

[619] You have this mantra that you say quite often.

[620] which is, and then you die.

[621] Yeah.

[622] This is your mantra.

[623] Or that, or I'll say you're here, literally here for five minutes.

[624] Yep.

[625] And I think that's really great and I think it's really helpful and it's healthy and it's productive.

[626] It's right on the border of depression and productive.

[627] Well, but then another part of me thinks, and yet sometimes you're definitely undermining the impact of these things and they do affect that five minute ride on planet Earth.

[628] Or when you die, there is a better or worse life you can leave behind.

[629] And so to kind of just as a knee jerk always go like, well, and then who gives a fuck?

[630] Well, so for the dad thing, my own personal thing was I found I've had so many levels of resentment against my dad.

[631] First of all, he was a fine dad.

[632] And as I get over more and more of these issues, he's a lovely dude that did the best he could.

[633] And he was quite great quite often.

[634] So with that said, one of the things I was really resentful for, I couldn't put my finger on it in my 20s or rather my 30s was I find.

[635] finally had accomplished something I had set out my whole life to do and I owned a home and I had some cool cars and the thing I felt like he robbed me of is I wanted to show my dad what I did and I wanted him to say good job son but it's deeper than this because he did do that I also wanted to respect him and for the compliment to have resonance like he had lived a great life and now I lived up to his shadow you know what I'm saying like I became a man like he was and now he's patting me on the back and going boy you did it now relax and do you at all feel resentful that like you were robbed of that great the things you've done we can agree you've you've left illinois and you're on a hit tv show and you have a nice house yeah and that's not necessarily success but you're you're just doing well um but don't you want that moment where the person who's approval or the person you always wanted to be proud of you gets to pull you aside and say son you did it, I'm proud of you?

[636] Yeah, I mean, sure, I guess.

[637] I mean, you know.

[638] Here we go.

[639] And then you die.

[640] And then you drink a pint on your way home.

[641] And then you die.

[642] No, I think, look, I'm already dead on the inside.

[643] No, I think that, you know, for me, I think I was always just looking for my dad to say, I'm sorry.

[644] And not just like, I'm sorry, but like, I'm really sorry.

[645] You know, look, it all worked out and I wouldn't change it for anything because it's, because of what happened made gave me drive and sure you know and ambition and all those things so I wouldn't change any of it but but to your point that that that that's just doing well and maybe not success yeah so if you have a ton of anxiety and you move through life with a lot of anxiety yeah and that's at maybe the core of it or the root of it yeah yeah then how thankful can you be that it was like that there are also a lot of people that are productive successful and they are great fucking dad so it's like it's not like it's the only road here Kristen's dad is a great fucking dad yeah And she's done just fine.

[646] Right.

[647] I'm just saying it's, it's a useful tool to drive your ambition to, to, it's great fuel in the furnace.

[648] Yeah, it was a great motivator for me to want to succeed.

[649] The whole notion of waking up in the morning saying, I'll show you.

[650] Yeah.

[651] You know what I mean?

[652] It's powerful.

[653] Yeah.

[654] So I think, and now, and then, you know, I want, I don't know if this is interesting, but the, see, and now I'm talking faster because I'm getting through it because I don't know that it's interesting, people are going to try.

[655] change a channel.

[656] No one's going to change the channel.

[657] Anyway, so.

[658] Sean, I love you.

[659] I love you too.

[660] You're so talented.

[661] You're so kind.

[662] You're so generous.

[663] You're way more than enough for anyone.

[664] Okay, great.

[665] Continue.

[666] It is.

[667] I totally forgot what I was to say.

[668] Okay, cool.

[669] You were going to tell a story that you were afraid to tell.

[670] I don't remember what it was.

[671] Oh, no. Really cool.

[672] What?

[673] Interesting.

[674] You came in 95.

[675] I come probably every day.

[676] Okay, if you can muster up the energy.

[677] I never even finished that story.

[678] I bumped into you outside of your show, Sean Saves.

[679] I abbreviate it for time.

[680] Sure.

[681] Sean Saves and you were talking and then you just wandered off to somewhere mentally.

[682] You know, that was a really weird time for me because I was so stressed out because my name was in the title and blah, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff, yeah.

[683] I remember it being very scary for you.

[684] Yeah.

[685] And you were not sleeping.

[686] enough.

[687] No, but still not.

[688] I remember I, I virtually yelled at you.

[689] I was like, Sean, you've got to get eight hours of sleep.

[690] I know.

[691] There's things that cycles of sleep that happen in your insulin and all this stuff.

[692] Like right now, like I sleep like, I'm not in making this up.

[693] I sleep about two, three hours a night.

[694] And that's the way.

[695] And then, so I'd go to bed at like midnight.

[696] Okay.

[697] I get up at three.

[698] Okay.

[699] And then I'm up.

[700] Put the dishes on the floor.

[701] Yep.

[702] And then I will fall back hard at like six or seven in the morning.

[703] an hour and I sleep great and then I'm totally wide awake and I've just surrendered that that's my circadia rhythm.

[704] I need you to get more sleep.

[705] We got to put a concerted effort into figuring how to get eight hours of sleep.

[706] Okay.

[707] I need you.

[708] I need you to get more sleep.

[709] How much do I owe you?

[710] Katsu, yeah.

[711] That's our little hideaway.

[712] You're a nice little secret hideaway.

[713] I love it.

[714] Although the profound conversation we had though was at the counter.

[715] Yes.

[716] Uh -huh.

[717] And you tell this story a lot.

[718] Okay.

[719] So I like it.

[720] Because I'm the hero in it.

[721] Do you know this story?

[722] No, I don't think.

[723] Okay, so.

[724] Before you tell the story, and I'll remind you to tell it, we met at playing poker at Will Arnett's house.

[725] That's exactly when we met.

[726] I had just done, let's go to prison with Will.

[727] He invited me to the poker game.

[728] You walked in.

[729] Actually, the very first time we ever met was backstage at the people's choice or kids' choice, whatever, one of these award shows.

[730] That's what I remember, yeah.

[731] And you were very, very nice.

[732] And I was like, oh, that guy's really famous and he's so nice.

[733] What are the odds?

[734] And then we met at Wills.

[735] And then by my own account, I fell in love with you that night.

[736] Like, I remember driving home feeling butterfly -y.

[737] Yeah, likewise.

[738] Yeah, it was so fun.

[739] I thought you were so funny and just kind and generous and loving.

[740] And I just loved you.

[741] And then we broke off from Will and had our own little relationship.

[742] And then, of course, you and Belle are really good friends and we're all friends.

[743] So we became friends from then.

[744] Yeah.

[745] Yeah.

[746] And then we would eat lunch together sometimes.

[747] And then so we were eating at the counter.

[748] And I was just about to do a Broadway show.

[749] and the advocate wanted to interview me or something.

[750] That's a gay, gay rag.

[751] Gay magazine, yeah.

[752] So it's like, okay.

[753] And then I was talking my publicist is just like, I'm so exhausted, like from, because I was out, but I wasn't out to the press.

[754] And right?

[755] And so that's like a whole other podcast, right?

[756] That's the whole, like, journey inside my brain about being scared to come out and but being okay with gay, but publicly, then people are going to shoot me. And I don't know, there's a bunch of fear and all this stuff.

[757] And we were getting death threats at Will & Grace when it first started.

[758] it anyway and then like wow you know unlike ellen who was brave and did all that i was like i don't know that i don't know that i want i don't know that i want i don't have the DNA to be a spokesperson for the entire community i don't i don't have that in my blood i just not like stand on a podium and say this is you know i'm a funny person who is quiet and gets put my pajamas on at six o 'clock at night because i i often i often sympathize with say you in that situation or often black folks as well where It's like it's almost expected of them that they have to be the head of a movement at all times and in all interviews and all worries that they should always be pushing the message in agenda.

[759] And it's like for me as a selfish human being who wants to do whatever, I'm in the mood to do that day, it feels a slightly unfair that is the double whammy once.

[760] First, you're already born gay, which makes you marginalized or you're born black, which makes you marginalize.

[761] And then on top of it, when you get to have some fun and be famous or whatever, now you've got to always be political and carry this message.

[762] It feels like double unfair.

[763] Right.

[764] I agree.

[765] I just didn't.

[766] I wish I was like that.

[767] I just am not built that way.

[768] And I feel a little guilty about that.

[769] But at the same time, I just want to be an actor.

[770] I just wanted to act and make a living at it.

[771] That's all.

[772] And do other small things.

[773] Like I do, I have a scholarship fund set up at Illinois State University.

[774] I give $5 ,000 every year to a needy kid.

[775] And nobody knows that.

[776] Now on your podcast, I reveal that.

[777] Thank you very much.

[778] But other little things like I do lots of those things, but I don't, I'm not vocal about it because I don't want to be vocal about it.

[779] that said i came out in 2010 publicly like to the press came out everywhere else at 18 years old so that young yeah that's pretty brave yeah in 1988 yeah because andy bell who is the lead singer of erasure i try to discover a little something to make me sweeter you know that song you don't know that song that you gave me no that you give me no that you give me no that you give me no that you give me no that you give me no so Oh, yeah, there we go.

[780] I am calling, oh, baby, please, right?

[781] Yep.

[782] So that guy's name is Andy Bell, and they've had many, many other hits, and he, I'm getting to your story and just like, no, you don't need to.

[783] And he was, everybody's like, who's your inspiration?

[784] He was one of my inspirations because he was out and had the number one song on the radio in America and England.

[785] Yeah.

[786] And also, Chain of Fools is an extremely hugely fan.

[787] That was the other hit song they had.

[788] And I was like, wait a minute, that guy's gay.

[789] Uh -huh.

[790] I was 18, I was like, you can make a living, like being gay in the arts and being open about it.

[791] I was, my mind was blown.

[792] That's where it gets tricky.

[793] That's where the guilt comes from, right?

[794] Is you know how inspirational that person was.

[795] Right.

[796] And how much confidence that gave you to be honest in your own personal life.

[797] Yeah.

[798] Then on some level, right, you think, well, fuck, I owe that to whatever 17 -year -old kid looks up to me. Yeah.

[799] That's the biggest gift of all of this.

[800] Yeah.

[801] Right.

[802] And that's, you know, that shit makes me cry.

[803] where like people come up to me and like you know because of you i felt like i'm like what i can't talk about it right now yeah yeah absolutely but it's incredible it's very powerful power power of comedy power of comedy yeah power of honesty yeah yeah yeah both both both yeah it's bravery and honest in comedy oh i think they're both the same okay right don't they all come from the same place honesty and comedy yeah you can only be funny if it's honest well just watching comedians and cars and comedy or whatever it's called and jerry Seinfeld said he thinks that concept is bullshit well And he said, Richard Pryor's pipe didn't really talk to him.

[804] But thank God he said the pipe talked to him.

[805] What are you talking about?

[806] Richard Pryor's most famous comedy routine is like, the pipe's like, you can kick Jim Brown's ass.

[807] Kick Jim Brown over here.

[808] You can kick his ass.

[809] And Seinfeld said his pipe wasn't really talking to him.

[810] That's a lie.

[811] That's not honesty.

[812] But it's brilliant.

[813] Well, that's semantics.

[814] No, I'm just saying, I don't know that that's the same thing when I'm talking.

[815] I'm just saying I think the funniest comedy is rooted in honesty.

[816] Oh, right, right, right.

[817] Right.

[818] Anyway, so now, 2010, I come out publicly for the first time.

[819] Of course, gay people were like, you know, some some gay people, not all gay people, were just like, oh, you know, you can't win.

[820] Right.

[821] What were they saying?

[822] Took you along an offer?

[823] Yeah, all that.

[824] Because I didn't come out on their terms.

[825] You know what I mean?

[826] And so it's like that everything we just talked about, right?

[827] Well, everybody's different.

[828] Go figure.

[829] And that's not the job I wanted.

[830] Also, again, I'm sorry.

[831] It just makes me really upset that of all the people that should understand how fucking challenge.

[832] gene it is they should be the last people to be slinging and you know the negative ones are the loudest ones so it wasn't a lot of people i've only been embraced by gay people and hrc and glad and everybody else yeah and i always say i contribute by making silly funny facebook videos with my husband and i hold his hand in public and that's how i contribute i don't contribute in any other way that somebody else wants me to you've never been on the bow of a float in the gay pride parade i have a tuba No, and that's great for those people who want to do that.

[833] And that's very successful that way.

[834] But anyway, can't win.

[835] 2010.

[836] 2010, I come out.

[837] And Dax, we're having a hamburger at the counter.

[838] And he says, let me ask you something.

[839] This is right before I came out.

[840] As I remember it, you had agreed to do the interview with the advocate, and you were very nervous about it.

[841] And so Dax says, I know, I have a feeling why you haven't come out yet.

[842] And I said, why?

[843] And he said, you've been kind of.

[844] keeping that underwraps publicly so that you might be more available to possibly one day star in a movie or be the lead of something somewhere.

[845] And I go...

[846] And play the straight mail.

[847] I play the straight mail.

[848] Like, maybe that's still a possible.

[849] And by the way, it's still a possibility.

[850] But he, and he goes, I go, yeah, I guess so.

[851] I was playing the studio game that's been antiquated since Rock Hudson was, you know, working that you're not supposed to say.

[852] One question changed my whole life.

[853] He goes, how's that working out for you?

[854] And I was like, oh, it's actually not at all.

[855] So I was like, wow, how's that working out for you?

[856] So that really made me go, yeah, why don't, who fucking cares?

[857] Who cares?

[858] I'm exhausted.

[859] I'm exhausted from playing the game with the press and everything.

[860] And I thought it was like a fun game we were having.

[861] Sure.

[862] It's like, no, it's not actually.

[863] I'm tired.

[864] And it's like, and even in this podcast, it's like, yeah, what do you want to talk about?

[865] I don't give a shit.

[866] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[867] Well, first I also want to acknowledge that there is a crazy huge double standard.

[868] And you've heard me bitch about this a bunch of times, which is if a guy comes out and is very vocally gay, they don't hire him to play the male with a very few exceptions.

[869] We seem completely unaccepting of a openly gay person playing a straight person on film.

[870] Yet all of our best gay movies are straight dudes.

[871] Yeah.

[872] All of them.

[873] Totally.

[874] Milk is, Brokeback Mountain, all straight dudes, and we're like, God damn, I actually believed he was gay.

[875] Let's give him an award.

[876] It's just such a double standard.

[877] So I have to tell you this.

[878] So I was on the way to the SAG Awards.

[879] This is many, many years ago.

[880] And it was the year Brokeback Mountain was out, right?

[881] And so I was nominated again.

[882] And I had won two or three times.

[883] And I was like, I'm not going to win again.

[884] I'm sick of me. Even I am.

[885] Like, I don't want to see me anymore.

[886] I don't want to hear me talk because I don't make any sense.

[887] So I go there.

[888] limo on the way there.

[889] I was like, what if, right?

[890] I better write something.

[891] I'd have something to say when I go up there.

[892] So I took a piece of, I took, I ripped the envelope off of where my ticket was in, and I wrote down this whole speech.

[893] Sure enough, and the stag war goes to Sean Hayes.

[894] I'm like, are you fucking kidding me?

[895] That's like, I'm so flattered.

[896] Like, I can't believe I want to get.

[897] So I get up there and every is, George Clooney, everybody's in the audience, right?

[898] And so I get up there and to your point, I say, first of all, I'd like to thank Eng Lee for taking a chance on me. Angley, who directed Brokeback Mountain.

[899] I'd like to thank Angley for taking a chance on me because everybody knows how hard it is to play a gay role these days.

[900] And I go, but now that I've won for playing a gay role, think of all the opportunities that will come my way.

[901] I just was relentless with the point I was making against the press and Hollywood.

[902] And this was like 12 years ago, whatever, and they still do it.

[903] And like love Simon, right?

[904] Fantastic actor, nothing against him.

[905] Nothing against any actor who wants to get a job.

[906] It's just a wake -up call for the people hiring.

[907] You know, like maybe you should cast a wider net.

[908] But that said, coming as a gay man, I really truly do believe if you're right for a part, you should do it regardless of what you are.

[909] If you're a straight guy, I can play gay better.

[910] Fine.

[911] If you're a gay guy, they can play straight guy, fine.

[912] It's nobody, you know, I think we're there.

[913] Yeah, and I don't think that any actor should ever not try to do a role they want to do.

[914] But I do think it's up to the people above them going, well, let's just say that we're not going to let gay guys play straight guys.

[915] so we should at least let them play gay guys and they're gay.

[916] We have some obligation to allow them to work.

[917] Right.

[918] I mean, like take Matt Bowmer.

[919] Yeah.

[920] Who's a phenomenal actor and an incredible human being.

[921] Very nice.

[922] Gorgeous guy.

[923] He was just on an episode of Will & Grace.

[924] He goes, and they gave him a line that his character said, if you're looking for a pore on my face, he won't find one.

[925] I go, you're like a dolphin.

[926] He's so gorgeous.

[927] wonderful on the inside, too.

[928] But there's a perfect example of an out -proud gay guy who can play either.

[929] Yeah.

[930] So give him a shot of playing a leading man in a movie.

[931] You know, maybe they have, and I just don't know.

[932] So you leave Illinois.

[933] Yeah.

[934] You come to Los Angeles in 1995.

[935] Yeah.

[936] How soon after you get here, do you audition for Will and Grace?

[937] So I got, so this is a story.

[938] Oh, see, I find myself boring.

[939] And here we go.

[940] I was a music director at a dinner theater in Chicago, a suburb of Chicago called Feasant Run Dinner Theater.

[941] I want to say one more thing.

[942] Sure.

[943] You used to run your tapes.

[944] You had tapes that you had made of your own film compositions and you put them on cassette tape and you went and saw someone perform live and then you ran the tape up to the stage, right?

[945] That's so crazy.

[946] Yeah, I was 22, and I decided to go for a road trip to see Harry Connick Jr. Ah, right.

[947] At some theater in Chicago because I was obsessed with when Harry met Sally soundtrack, right?

[948] And I was just, I'm like, I can't believe I played that and sang.

[949] And so I drove up to see him in concert And I knew his albums.

[950] And so one of the songs, he said, this song was written for me by a guy named Mark Shaman.

[951] And Mark's right here in the front row.

[952] And I'm flipping out.

[953] Do you know who Mark Shaman is?

[954] No. So Mark Shaman and Scott Whitman wrote Hairspray the musical, all the music.

[955] Mark Shaman wrote a million things.

[956] He wrote the soundtrack for the bucket list that I was in.

[957] I'm so sorry.

[958] He composed that way.

[959] I just thought, what have you said?

[960] He wrote that beautiful score for Sanford and Son.

[961] By the way, he probably did.

[962] Mark Shaman is like, you know, he wrote all the music for Smash, the TV show.

[963] Like, incredible, amazing, very, very famous composer.

[964] So he, Harry Connick, dedicated it to Mark who was sitting in the front row.

[965] And I had my tape with me, like an idiot, and I ran down to Mark Shaman, who I now know when I'm friends with, and I'm Harry Connick, like, it's all weird how it all works out.

[966] Yeah.

[967] And he just looked at him.

[968] He was like, yeah, thanks.

[969] That's that, that's that story.

[970] So I saw him like, like, you know, again, for the first time, like 15 years ago, I remember.

[971] I go, did you?

[972] I haven't heard from you.

[973] Did you ever listen to that?

[974] So it was Feasant Run Dinner Theater.

[975] I was a musical director.

[976] And while I was doing Fiddler on the Roof with Anna Klompsky was in the cast.

[977] In the parking lot, I had my car packed.

[978] I did the show because right after the show was going to take off on the highway.

[979] So me and a friend drove out, didn't stop, 36 hours, never been to Los Angeles.

[980] got out, had a set up, a guy, a friend of mine from Chicago who already moved out, had the apartment.

[981] So he's like, this is the address, because he moved out before I did.

[982] And so I drove up to Park LaBrea.

[983] I was like, wow, I don't know, no idea where I am.

[984] I moved in.

[985] We shared rent.

[986] I was taking the trash out one day.

[987] There's this guy who has worked at a casting office.

[988] And he says, he goes, what do you do?

[989] I go, I'm an actor, but I work at this restaurant red.

[990] It's awful, but, uh, no offense to red.

[991] No, of course not.

[992] That's clear.

[993] closed a long time ago.

[994] The owner was a jerk.

[995] But he was David.

[996] But anyway, he wasn't kind.

[997] He fired my friend Raina.

[998] So anyway, the casting director says, I can set you up with a couple auditions, but if you don't do well, you know, so it was like pressure, pressure.

[999] So I got callback and then a callback for another one, call back, and then I booked, and I booked, I was like, oh, this worked out great.

[1000] And then from there, I got, I don't know how, I just stand up at the comedy store a little bit.

[1001] I was horrible.

[1002] My opening joke was, you know, they said, I say ballet is one of the most difficult things you can do.

[1003] So I say, don't do it.

[1004] It's good.

[1005] I like that.

[1006] You guys laughed way more than how many stories.

[1007] No, I would stand there in front of the mic for four minutes maybe, which is an extremely long time.

[1008] And Panama, I'm like, thank you.

[1009] Hey, it's good to see you.

[1010] Oh, that's right.

[1011] That's right.

[1012] Cut your hair.

[1013] Oh, my God.

[1014] How's the baby?

[1015] Just ask certain specific people questions.

[1016] but I didn't move my body.

[1017] Oh, that's great.

[1018] I had this really big pose.

[1019] But I didn't move my body and then I would point and get back into the pose.

[1020] Anyway, so it's so stupid.

[1021] I like it.

[1022] And then I somehow got Billy's Hollywood screen kiss which my agent was like, you audition for this independent film.

[1023] Do you want to do it?

[1024] I don't know.

[1025] It's literally $75 a day or $25 a day or something like that.

[1026] I was like, yeah, I'm not doing anything else.

[1027] Like, yeah, I want to work.

[1028] Yeah.

[1029] So I did that.

[1030] And then, you know, eight months later, Tommy O 'Haver, the director's like, we got in a Sundance.

[1031] I'm like, what's Sundance?

[1032] He's like, it's a good thing.

[1033] I was like, okay.

[1034] And that's when it was truly an independent film festival.

[1035] Yeah, you had to fly yourself and stuff.

[1036] You played yourself and no names.

[1037] It was all breaking people, you know?

[1038] Right.

[1039] This is like Sex Lives videotape era.

[1040] And the same year, mine was Darren Aronofsky.

[1041] Oh, yeah.

[1042] Hi.

[1043] Yeah.

[1044] So that happened.

[1045] And sitting in the audience of one of the screenings for Billy's Hollywood Screen Kiss was a cast and director from NBC, casting Will and Grace.

[1046] And he said, we're looking for a will.

[1047] And I said, watch the movie.

[1048] Maybe you found him.

[1049] I don't know.

[1050] And then he said, would you fly back?

[1051] And I go, I don't know the money to change my flight to go back to L .A. to audition for something that made, you know what I mean?

[1052] Yeah.

[1053] I want to stay here.

[1054] Yeah.

[1055] And so I stayed there and I got back.

[1056] They'd found the brilliant, amazing Eric McCormick.

[1057] And then they said, do you want to come in and read for the quote, the other guy?

[1058] And so I said, yeah, I'll read.

[1059] And it was between me and Alexis, our cat, God rest his soul.

[1060] He was such a good guy.

[1061] and there it is.

[1062] Here we are.

[1063] What year was that?

[1064] Still on the same sitcom, by the way.

[1065] It's a dream, by the way.

[1066] 35 years later.

[1067] Oh, my God.

[1068] Yeah, so wait, what year did it start shooting?

[1069] 1998.

[1070] So I'd been here three years.

[1071] Three years.

[1072] Two years.

[1073] Pretty crazy.

[1074] I won the lottery.

[1075] Yeah, it's pretty nuts.

[1076] And just give me the historical context really quick.

[1077] I was 27, by the way.

[1078] You were 27?

[1079] When I did the pilot.

[1080] Was that the first openly gay lead character?

[1081] Characters show.

[1082] Ellen's character is really the lead, you know, that came out on that show.

[1083] But then, of course, ABC, I can't remember.

[1084] Somebody, wherever it was, canceled the show famously, as you know, because of that.

[1085] And then, you know, there's a great quote that Max Muchnik who created, Will & Gray said, Ellen opened the door and we knocked it down.

[1086] That's cool.

[1087] And was it immediately a success?

[1088] Did it, like, debut huge?

[1089] No, we were on Tuesday at 9 .30 after Caroline in the city.

[1090] Not even a slot.

[1091] No, it was, it was not.

[1092] success at first and then after the first season they re -ran it over the summer like they used to do right and uh the same thing happened to us that was happening with friends they said which was people found it in the second season oh you know and the reruns of the first season and then it just became pretty then it became a hit yeah and how many years was the first run eight years eight years and you got nominated for how many umes i i had an idea six maybe and you won how many of them just one Just won.

[1093] Yeah.

[1094] Was it exciting to win that?

[1095] I won one.

[1096] You won an Emmy.

[1097] That's infinite more Emmys than I have.

[1098] Was it so exciting?

[1099] Yeah, my mom was there.

[1100] That was nice.

[1101] So she got to see some of that.

[1102] And you got to go.

[1103] You went on Oprah.

[1104] I went on Oprah.

[1105] Yeah.

[1106] So wait.

[1107] No, I'm trying to think of my Emmy speech.

[1108] You know, when you say things, that's why like, you know, I'm fearful of this.

[1109] I still have anxiety sitting here talking to you because we live in a world now where I, I don't know we but I'm afraid to talk like because you are now accountable for every single word you say so I'm going to maybe even accountable in another in a whole other time space continuum so in 10 years what we say here could be dug up and we could be murdered in 10 years by something that's evolved that's a little fucking scary it is isn't it yeah that's why I'm going to drive home and think about everything I said and didn't say right and if I offended somebody but maybe this will help you retire because I think you're going to have a very hard time retiring knowing you yeah so maybe this will help like in eight years when this gets played and they they kill us both it'll be a blessing this is nice i always say to scotty i don't necessarily want to die okay but if i did i'm okay to go okay yeah well i think particularly because we've chosen comedy as a field it's it is it's incumbent upon you to be provocative and shake the tree that's basically the whole point of it right and so i'm trying to please too many people all the time.

[1110] Yeah.

[1111] And at this, at some point in your life, you got to go, it's the Sean Hay Show now.

[1112] The rest of it was for you guys.

[1113] You know what, Zach?

[1114] That is so interesting.

[1115] I would kill to be at that point right now.

[1116] I don't know what you're waiting for.

[1117] No one's going to knock on your door and say, it's time for the Sean Hay Show.

[1118] But let me tell you.

[1119] Because the things I want, I think, and the things I want to say are, no, not going to work.

[1120] Yeah, but.

[1121] So you're in year now three.

[1122] You're about to going to year three of this new new version right yeah so that makes 11 years 11 years of making a great paycheck like what would be the indicator for you that it's time to do it on your my yes and be i don't know i guess here's the thing i i i talked to scotty about that too is like what mind would i speak so maybe i'm talking about both sides of my mouth like i can't wait to speak my mind and then i go i don't really have anything to say right i mean like yeah i like my tiny little life yes i think i'm more it's not even really about what you're going to say it's about when will you say to yourself i am a hundred percent fine exactly how i am and you'll either love it or hate it and that's on you and i'm cool with the results of that that's the thing i would want you to have i think i'm almost there i just i still have this thing in my mind where i think i have to please a lot of people yeah i don't know and i think the reason i end up Always giving you unsolicited advice is because I think you and I are so similar in so many ways.

[1123] So it's much easier for me to see or hear the racket that's going on in your brain because the same one goes down in mine.

[1124] I'm also like, and you find this too, you're also a different person around different people in your life.

[1125] Oh, for sure.

[1126] Right.

[1127] So I am a version of me around you.

[1128] Uh -huh.

[1129] You know, that is more we talk deeper.

[1130] Uh -huh.

[1131] Maybe not on this podcast.

[1132] But, you know what I mean?

[1133] Yeah.

[1134] Then most people.

[1135] I don't go to such a silly place with you because I enjoy, I don't talk like this with anybody.

[1136] Well, I hope that you know, I really have unconditional love for you.

[1137] Like, I really just admire you and love who you are as a human being.

[1138] So there's really nothing you're going to do or say that's going to make me reverse my position on who you are, Sean Hayes.

[1139] I'll chalk, even if you're bonkers, I'll go, oh, he had a weird day.

[1140] I won't.

[1141] It won't be contempt.

[1142] I won't go, oh, Sean's a different than I thought he was.

[1143] I feel like I know who you are.

[1144] Well, there's another funny hiccup you have that I have, which is like you have to do everything.

[1145] Yeah.

[1146] Like you're sitting around and you're like, I should be doing that too.

[1147] For me, the voice is almost like, well, you're a lazy piece of shit if you don't because you have this opportunity and people would kill for this opportunity.

[1148] So fucking sit down and ride or whatever the thing is.

[1149] And you seem to have that is.

[1150] Totally.

[1151] And I often am, I take pleasure being around you because you have it even worse than me which I like.

[1152] The only way is up then.

[1153] Because you'll do these Broadway shows and they fucking kill you.

[1154] Oh, it's unbelievable.

[1155] And you're excited about for about a week when you're the romantic notion of doing some new one is in your head and you're whipped into a lather about it.

[1156] And drunk on the romantic fantasy you have of it.

[1157] Right.

[1158] And then quite quickly the reality which is a ton of rehearsal, a ton of memorization, a ton of performances of resting your voice.

[1159] And I went and saw you with your Chenna with musical.

[1160] Promises, promises, promises, promises.

[1161] Promises, promises, promises.

[1162] Can I tell you something that Dach said is so funny?

[1163] One of the funniest things you've ever said in your life to me was he knew my mom had Alzheimer's, and it was pretty intense then.

[1164] I go, my mom's coming to see the show, and he goes, thank God it's called promises.

[1165] I'll get some hate letters about that.

[1166] But I stand by that joke in the moment at the right time.

[1167] I think you and I have had some of our best moments like letting off the steam about these hard situations in life.

[1168] One of them being your mother, who died in January, had Alzheimer's for years before she died.

[1169] And you obviously are saddled with being probably in your family, the rock in many ways, because you're going to probably, I assume you financially supported her.

[1170] You have a, yeah.

[1171] And so you have a role in your family for mom.

[1172] It can be an oppressive mask to wear.

[1173] You're talking to doctors.

[1174] You're gathering the information.

[1175] You're making pretty important decisions for her.

[1176] And sometimes you need to go see your comedy buddy and make some Alzheimer's jokes, right?

[1177] Just to keep yourself fucking sane.

[1178] And there's something so cathartic about finding the humor in these scenarios you have to because all of a sudden the child becomes the parent and there's so many yes my father towards the end i was caring for him as well and some of my favorite moments are at a certain point he had to start wearing diapers right and i would change his diaper and i would say come here little baby and i would tickle his stomach i go time to change your diaper and i would totally just treat him like a tiny little baby he would be giggling and there he was a 300 pound baby laying his back and I'd be fucking changing his diaper but I wouldn't just do it like oh we gotta get through this I'm like dude you know what this blows for both of us I think the last thing you want is your son to be changing your diaper and the last thing I want to do is change his diaper so I'm like let's go all the way with this come Gucci Gucci go I'd be like tickling his bare belly and shit and fucking slime lift your ass up man help me out here you're wearing a fucking diaper and we would have a damn good laugh at it you know because I don't know What else you're going to do?

[1179] Just let it own every aspect of your life.

[1180] You're right.

[1181] You have to go for it.

[1182] You can't just half -asset, no pun intended.

[1183] Yeah.

[1184] And then even when I just went through it again with my stepdad, like, I had a role in that family.

[1185] We all sat in the room.

[1186] It was at the end.

[1187] And there's six of us.

[1188] And I'm like, I know my role.

[1189] It's time to make some jokes about this.

[1190] You know, this is rough.

[1191] We need some levity here.

[1192] You have to, yeah.

[1193] But would you ever feel guilty?

[1194] Because you would make a lot of good jokes during the...

[1195] The hardest Alzheimer's phase.

[1196] No, I think, you know, look, I was in therapy about my mom for, I know what it was.

[1197] Here we go.

[1198] A long time.

[1199] Okay, so I made, this is from two hours ago when I were talking, my.

[1200] This is from Monday.

[1201] When I was about 24 or five, I started making goal lists.

[1202] And I thought it was so cathartic.

[1203] And I still preach about how it's very important.

[1204] and two questions, what do you want?

[1205] What are you waiting for, right?

[1206] That's what I was asked people.

[1207] Just specifically, what do you want?

[1208] Do you want food right now?

[1209] You're hungry?

[1210] Do you want tons of money?

[1211] Do you want a great relationship?

[1212] Do you want?

[1213] So you have to write it down.

[1214] And so I would write stream of conscious things down.

[1215] I would, like, 50 things, and I would number them.

[1216] One was eat better, two, exercise, three, call my mom more, four, you know, book 10 commercials this year, or five, be a household name in five, you know.

[1217] Like big, and then a section on it, I'd have.

[1218] have lifetime goals, which was host Saturday Night Live, be on David Letterman, have a billboard with, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, like career things that you think are important.

[1219] And so my therapist said, I told him this and he said, this is many, many years ago, don't tell me a catastrophe happened.

[1220] And I go, what?

[1221] And he goes, they all came true.

[1222] Yeah, yeah.

[1223] And I guess that's why I'm sitting here, a little bit of that.

[1224] But I was going through it with my mom, too.

[1225] So once I went to therapy to deal with the death of me. my mom's soul, I guess, or spirit, her physical was still here.

[1226] So I had to deal with the death, two deaths, right?

[1227] Yeah, her consciousness and then her physical body, right?

[1228] And so that was really tough.

[1229] That took about a year or two to get over and crying and it was rough.

[1230] And then to your point, yes, it's great to make jokes after you heal from that death, then while they're still physically here, I think it's okay, like you said, to find levity within this tragic, these tragic moments.

[1231] And then you have to deal the second time with the death, but it's not as rough because, you know, it's a blessing that they go, because what is the point of being here?

[1232] That's what I have, I'm sorry, that's what I have a problem with, you know, these right -to -death laws that are now slowly being passed in states.

[1233] It's like, but they're not applied to people who have dementia, Alzheimer's, who are sitting in a bed 24 hours a day.

[1234] Why are we keeping them alive?

[1235] It makes me so angry.

[1236] They do not want to be here.

[1237] do not want them to suffer and we are left to suffer and so are they so i i want to try it's a some weird judeo -christian yeah of course it's all religious but it's it's it's what purpose is it serving to anybody yeah yeah makes me very angry the the the list thing in the in the in the um therapist saying let me guess a catastrophe happened they all came true in general don't you think we all create a fantasy and it's whatever it is i'm going to be the president of this all going to be a partner at the law firm.

[1238] And when that happens, then I'll start enjoying life or then I'll feel good about myself or I'll have proven myself and that you're somehow going to get some consensus.

[1239] If you achieve some consensus from the outside, you might believe it yourself.

[1240] Well, here's the problem.

[1241] I hear what you're saying.

[1242] The thing is, once you accomplish what you've set out to accomplish, you have to now create new goals.

[1243] You have to create a reason to get out of bed every morning.

[1244] because if you are content, what do you do all day?

[1245] Well, I personally work from a similar place where I'm motivated out of fear, fear of failure, fear of irrelevance, fear of financial security.

[1246] I strive to work and be productive and creative out of a place of love and excitement.

[1247] That's my goal.

[1248] Yeah, no, I get that.

[1249] I do that too.

[1250] You do.

[1251] I don't know if people know this about you, but you produce a lot of television shows.

[1252] You have television shows on the air that you produce.

[1253] And that is a labor -intensive, not generally that fun.

[1254] It's not like acting where you're playing with another person.

[1255] It's work producing it.

[1256] I don't personally do all of it myself.

[1257] I know.

[1258] You have a great partner, Todd.

[1259] Shady Acres.

[1260] What is it?

[1261] I always think it is.

[1262] He loves to do that because it makes them feel bigger than me. It's called Hazy Mills production.

[1263] Hazy Mills.

[1264] You also will go do these Broadway shows.

[1265] And they're so labor -intensive, right?

[1266] yeah yeah they're really really hard makes it feel alive i think okay and then and then you are on uh you do 22 episodes of will and grace 18 this year 18 so all of these are time consuming which one is the most fun which one do you do you think you would do if if they said we're no longer paying you for it would you do any of them if they were no longer paying you for them if i was no longer if i was getting pay to do no film TV Broadway producing anything I would go do sketch comedy with you.

[1267] Okay.

[1268] A little theater for free.

[1269] Okay.

[1270] Okay.

[1271] I think so.

[1272] Yeah.

[1273] I think so.

[1274] Or open like an old gay man, open just like a Chotchkey store.

[1275] Oh, okay.

[1276] Just rearrange things on shelves all day long.

[1277] And like have a fake price tag gun.

[1278] Uh -huh.

[1279] Just put that on there.

[1280] No, or open like pillows and blankets.

[1281] Yeah.

[1282] Or you sell pillows and blankets.

[1283] I bought pillows and blankets .com, by the way.

[1284] Oh, you did?

[1285] I have like $5.

[1286] Oh, that's a website, you know, a domain you own.

[1287] You go to a store called pillows and blankets.

[1288] Right.

[1289] Oh, that's it.

[1290] It was like me writing a book about how to raise stories.

[1291] Well, I don't have time to have children, so I write books.

[1292] No, I'm sure you have a great perspective that kids could benefit from.

[1293] No, sincerely, I don't think you need to have that.

[1294] I love kids.

[1295] Yeah.

[1296] I guess I just, I want, I want you to carve out a big chunk of your life for something you would do for free.

[1297] I really want that for you.

[1298] Yeah.

[1299] Well, I think, you know, it's interesting.

[1300] I think, you know, I would say, I like Vegas, you know.

[1301] And I always say, like, you know, when I go to Vegas and I sit down at the blackjack table, I play three, four, five hands at one, if nobody's sitting there, I'll do, I'll play all of those hands at one time.

[1302] So at least one is in, the game.

[1303] Right.

[1304] And so I think that's why I do so many things is because I enjoy being creative.

[1305] So lots of things.

[1306] I'm just wondering what the breakdown is if you had to assign percentages of how much of it is that you enjoy being in the game.

[1307] And how much of it is I need to secure a. living for myself for the rest of my life i think it's i think it's everything it's all things i think because if i wasn't creating what i don't know what i would be doing right and you have a fear of that yeah could you see that as an exciting adventure what like i don't know what i'm going to do if i'm say retired nothing scares me more right i know which makes me think there's something there i hope so yeah is that what my prize is at the end of this podcast i tell you what you should be doing yes i would give anything Your heroes, like I would, is it fair to say that, what's his name's a mentor?

[1308] Marty Short.

[1309] Marty Short.

[1310] Yeah, for sure.

[1311] What did I just do?

[1312] Because people couldn't see it.

[1313] I put my, Ed Grimley's bangs.

[1314] I just did it with my hand and you knew.

[1315] Marty and Steve Martin are both probably my two biggest mentors.

[1316] Yeah.

[1317] But what's really interesting about both those guys as examples, they're both guys who at many times have walked away.

[1318] Uh -huh.

[1319] Martin Short is one of the, we would agree, the funniest human beings to ever.

[1320] walk planet right so without question he could be acting all day long every day if he chose yeah yeah for sure he he is one of the most centered grounded focused normal comfortable in his own scan all of it and he knows how to just be alive on planet earth day to day in the moment from the outside it seems he doesn't feel like there's a clock ticking behind him at all times he's just very present and having a blast and in a good mood and so all the time do you think maybe that that's one of the things you're drawn to about him isn't that what everybody's drawn to about him and don't you strive to have that that like balance and serenity in your brain and your life yes and in a a we we have the same where we say find somebody who has what you want right and figure out how to get it ask them how they got it again he's also another one where you go as a gay man go are you remember that book are you my mother oh yeah yeah yeah yeah right one right one are you my father you know and the opposite of that book are you my mother i live my life with what we were talking about before are you my yeah trying to seek his father figure i'm always like marty you know would be such a great but there's also jimmy burrow is he is he my father like you know like there's so many guys in my life that i'm like would be great fathers all right here's where i do this annoying thing that people get mad at me about doing i'm going to do it to you anyways do you think having a little boy of your own could heal that i think his name is called sean sean's your little boy you already have one my inner child no um no i don't i don't look no i don't know i don't know i don't have the patience i think you do you have those fucking god rest their souls they both passed but you had a couple dogs yeah yeah yeah that were bonkers yeah right what were their cute names mattie and buzz maddie and buzz and they were high strong right i mean they parked and they ran in circles and yeah they were not they're sheep sheep herding dogs Australian shepherds yeah Australian shepherds in the way you and scotty cared for those little princesses yeah yeah they were great i saw in one second like oh this is a good home for someone who needs assistance to come yeah you can get nurtured here i think i think i would like i you know neither one of us is a hundred at a hundred percent to have a kid but and so therefore if Scotty was like, I definitely want a kid, I'd be on board.

[1321] Okay.

[1322] But, and he said the same.

[1323] But neither of us are like 100 % on board.

[1324] But can I tell you something?

[1325] There's never been parents in the history of mankind that were 100%.

[1326] It's like, how many people do we know knuckleheads?

[1327] We're like, I'm just not sure if this girl's the one.

[1328] Yeah, she graduated from MIT.

[1329] Yeah, she's the best doctor at Cedar Cyanide.

[1330] She's a 10.

[1331] But is she the one?

[1332] And you just want to go, get the fuck over yourself.

[1333] There isn't a one.

[1334] Right, right, right.

[1335] Just be with this person and work the shit out of it.

[1336] Work it like a job and she'll be the one.

[1337] Why do you want me to have kids so bad?

[1338] Wait, there's a quote from a woman that I love and she said, I'd rather regret not having kids than have them and regret it later.

[1339] Yep.

[1340] And again, this is where I get in trouble because it's seen as like shaming people who don't have kids.

[1341] And I don't mean to do that.

[1342] What I mean to do is when I see somebody who has a ton to offer somebody and can help make this world better by raising some kids and who I've assessed as having the patience for a kid and the love for a kid and the generosity for a kid, I think you could help.

[1343] That's very sweet.

[1344] I'm going to make you a deal.

[1345] If I have a child and I put all the love and time and effort and money and all those sweat and tears into it.

[1346] And when that child becomes a teenager and decides to be a drug addict and set my house on fire, can I give them to you?

[1347] Absolutely.

[1348] Absolutely.

[1349] Okay.

[1350] Because I have girls and I've always wanted to have a fight with my son.

[1351] You know, like that old fashion in the kitchen.

[1352] Yeah.

[1353] The passing of the torch.

[1354] Yeah.

[1355] I'll never, I'll be robbed of that Midwestern tradition.

[1356] I just don't want to roll the dice and get a screwed up kid because I've seen like so many parents roll their eyes like, oh, don't have kids.

[1357] Yeah.

[1358] I guess you see that.

[1359] But I feel like a couple things could happen.

[1360] Okay.

[1361] One is you just can't talk your way into having the perspective of being a parent to you are one.

[1362] And the amount of catharsis that happens with your own childhood, from my point of view, I'll give you the very quickest example.

[1363] For 38 years, I was mad at my dad and thought I was the victim that he left and robbed me of a father.

[1364] Six months into having Lincoln, it hit me like a ton of bricks.

[1365] if for some crazy scenario I end up missing 10 years of my daughter's lives I won't recover it'll kill me it'll fucking absolutely kill me whereas I did just find missing 10 years of my dad's life right so it's just weird how it flipped to me that I was the victim in the scenario and then I realized he was the victim and then all this catharsis and healing came out of that for me I agree with you I think I'm there too about my dad yeah I think he of course regrets regrets like not having a relationship with me yeah but I don't know him right so I'd be like bring him in Monica we have him yeah what if your dad walking he's holding a new baby but he but but it would be like striking up a conversation with you know my neighbor down the street I don't you know yeah I wouldn't even know where to begin yeah have you been all right I want to publicly apologize for trying so hard to make this a therapy session where I like I bestowed onto you something that I thought was going to make your life better it was I was relentless and it was like who am I to say all these things I just love you so much so you want me to be a better person than I already know I do not it has nothing to do with being a better person no I'm for somebody I totally disagree I want you to care less about what anyone thinks whether people are happy only because you you by your own admission of tell me you have anxiety and you can't sleep and there's these things and and I naturally want you to not have those things.

[1366] No, I know.

[1367] I don't either, but I don't know how to do that.

[1368] Okay.

[1369] You know, it's my, it's where I live.

[1370] Yeah, I have to let you go, but I do want to end in a positive note.

[1371] Walk me through the emotional arc of the show coming back and where you are at today.

[1372] So, you know, we did that election video with, about Hillary Clinton and about the election, still got my fingers crossed, hoping it works out.

[1373] Okay.

[1374] And they seem to have a huge impact.

[1375] Yeah, exactly.

[1376] But we truly, truly did it.

[1377] The crew did it for free.

[1378] We did it for free just to get our message out in the way we knew how.

[1379] I don't know that everyone knows that.

[1380] You did a video as Will and Grace, the whole cast.

[1381] And it became very viral.

[1382] Yes, it became that...

[1383] Like an HPV or herpes.

[1384] Very viral.

[1385] Yeah, very viral.

[1386] Yeah, we did it purely to get the message.

[1387] We hadn't been together in 11 years or 10 years or whatever it was.

[1388] And we thought, yeah, it seems pretty important to, hang up any kind of anything that we were feeling about the show or and so and let's get together for it and we all wanted to right and it was it was a great excuse to get our message out and also to see each other and also to do all this so we did it done see you oh my god so good to see you how have you been blah blah see later at any point while filming that did you go like oh this was really fun i miss it uh yeah a little bit a little bit Megan Malalley she was she said to max much, Nick, you know, maybe we could do the show again.

[1389] He goes, who knows, maybe we could?

[1390] And so it kind of started the dialogue going because of that experience.

[1391] And then what really hit home was the millions and millions and millions of views that they got, and then that got the network talking and us talking more serious about it.

[1392] And then here we are.

[1393] Here's what I'm wondering.

[1394] Sometimes you do, like you have a project in your life and it takes up a lot of your life the first go around.

[1395] And you're complicated.

[1396] You're young and you have aspirations and you see people doing.

[1397] other things and there's all these complications that can sometimes prevent you from enjoying what was an amazing experience yeah and then after the fact maybe eight years later you have a perspective of like i think even seinfeld said that like his only regret about signfield is he wish he could have taken a breath and just enjoyed making that show did you at all reenter it now much older going oh this time around i'm gonna just enjoy it for what it is and stop thinking about it propelling me somewhere else Right, 100%.

[1398] Yes.

[1399] You do.

[1400] You learn to appreciate it far more.

[1401] It means something different now.

[1402] And now it's more about, I'm so glad you said it because for me, it made me realize, oh, nothing else matters other than the stuff that just I want to do and I don't care about the result.

[1403] You know, you don't care about the result as much.

[1404] You just care about the creative process and getting it out of your body and out of your brain and into the world, whether one person sees it or 10 million people see it.

[1405] You just, that's what is about for me now.

[1406] Right, because when you're young, it's just 100 % results.

[1407] Yep, I don't, right, and I don't care for the results.

[1408] And I don't care anymore about, it's so funny, pleasing people.

[1409] I don't care about pleasing people with the product as much as when I say pleasing people, I met me personally in life.

[1410] But as far as my creative endeavors, if it reaches 10 people or, you know, I don't care.

[1411] I don't care.

[1412] And it's a wonderful place to work from.

[1413] Yeah.

[1414] If you enjoy the process, that can't be taken for it.

[1415] that's right that's right so i think success follows you when it comes from the heart in no other place yes and i am lucky enough that i can do stuff now just for the pleasure of doing it yeah and i think you can too i might only wish for you is that you did it a little better yeah i think everyone wishes that i think that's a fair i think that's a great note to go out on um sean hayes i love you so much i love you too the only thing i feel like i should say is that i was fired from your show.

[1416] I know.

[1417] Which is my only firing experience of my life is I got offered to do a thing on your show last year.

[1418] I'm fine with it now.

[1419] It was a interesting feeling to get fired.

[1420] The only thing I cared about is that you and I were involved.

[1421] Had it been any other thing with a bunch of strangers, I would have been like, oh, whatever, I was at a table read for 45 minutes, and then I got fired and who gives a shit.

[1422] I know.

[1423] I almost don't remember, of course I remember it, but I most blocked it out because it was horrible that it happened, but I don't know.

[1424] It's like it didn't, I don't know.

[1425] Yeah, the only thing was there was no anonymity to it for me. I knew many of the people at that table read.

[1426] So I think that was maybe the only element of it that I was like, oh, that's kind of embarrassing.

[1427] These are like people I know.

[1428] Yeah.

[1429] And then I got canned.

[1430] I can't believe they fired you.

[1431] I cannot believe they fired you.

[1432] Over a year later, it's pretty funny.

[1433] Go ahead.

[1434] And it's now, to me, it was clear why, right?

[1435] because Nick Offerman did the poem.

[1436] And that to me seemed like, oh.

[1437] Well, if you were going to hire Nick, you wouldn't hire me, that kind of thing.

[1438] Well, they wanted him, they wanted a, they wanted a moment with him and his wife.

[1439] Okay.

[1440] If Kristen was doing something, they might do that to a person to get you to come on, is my opinion.

[1441] I also might have to suck.

[1442] I don't know the machinations of any of that.

[1443] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1444] You don't have to weigh in.

[1445] That was my.

[1446] Yeah.

[1447] And then it doesn't, it could be as simple as that.

[1448] I was terrible at the table reading, that's fine.

[1449] But that's the only time in being friends for 12 years where I was like, oh, my God, now I feel like there's something awkward between us.

[1450] Because you said to me, oh, my God, I'm so sorry.

[1451] And I was like, oh, Jesus, you should never be saying sorry to me in our whole friendship because you don't ever do anything wrong to me. And you're not the creator of the show.

[1452] I guess that's why I blocked it out because it has nothing to do with me or you.

[1453] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1454] Right?

[1455] Yeah.

[1456] I was working it backstage all the time behind the scenes.

[1457] Mastermining it?

[1458] I want to hire him and then fire him.

[1459] Yeah, in front of everyone.

[1460] The only thing could have been better is if they, at the end of the table read, they go, you're fired.

[1461] The only funny thing to come out of that story is I went to do the table read.

[1462] When do you guys do table reads?

[1463] 10 in the morning?

[1464] Yeah, something like that.

[1465] Okay, 10 in the morning, go to the table read.

[1466] I leave.

[1467] I go, I don't think I did that good at that.

[1468] Whatever.

[1469] I go about my day.

[1470] Then I get a call for my agent.

[1471] And she goes, she calls up and she goes, hey, just wanted to say, like, you were so good in that movie.

[1472] Like, I had a screening of a movie like the week before.

[1473] And she's like, oh, you were so good in that movie.

[1474] And I go, oh, thanks, thanks, thanks.

[1475] She goes, yeah, the way you, blah, blah.

[1476] And she goes more, more, more about how good I was in a movie from a week ago.

[1477] And when we're getting about 15 minutes into how good I am in this movie, all of a sudden something clicks where I go, oh, bad news is coming.

[1478] And in the middle of her compliment parade, I go, oh, did I get fired from Will and Grace?

[1479] And she goes, they are going another direction.

[1480] And I was like, I knew it.

[1481] Something stunk.

[1482] You would not just call me to fluff my pillows for 15.

[1483] minutes right right oh gosh i'm sorry that happened but it's totally fine everything's great and also even more importantly my daughter had something at school and it was on the day i would have been doing the live show and she was like graduating from you know her little class in preschool and i was like oh this all worked out exactly how it should yeah for sure yeah and and by the way it would tainted our the show that we're going to do someday that's right about people need fresh eyes about um changing diapers and alzheimer yeah who wants to Do you want to be the patient or the...

[1484] I should be the dad because you need...

[1485] I would like to receive.

[1486] Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1487] I want you to change my little diaper.

[1488] Okay, great.

[1489] A little baby, get you, get you goo.

[1490] I love you, Sean.

[1491] I love you, Jack, Sean.

[1492] And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate, Monica Padman.

[1493] Get facts, just do it.

[1494] When you want to get to it, get facts, just do it.

[1495] when you want to come that's gnarly at the end yeah really gets stanky why was why did it say that at the end of that song relax don't do oh i guess they're saying to hold out i think relax don't do it when you want to go to it relax don't do it when you want to come oh my gosh can it be that Is it that sexual?

[1496] I don't know.

[1497] Huh.

[1498] I mean, I can't imagine it got on the airwaves there in the 80s being that.

[1499] I don't think so.

[1500] It must mean something else.

[1501] We're not hindered by those cumbersome regulations on vulgarity, luckily.

[1502] Luckily, we're allowed to make it sexual and gross.

[1503] Yes.

[1504] Anywho, thanks for that song.

[1505] Yeah.

[1506] But don't relax.

[1507] I want you to get fired up.

[1508] Yeah.

[1509] But I am relaxing because I have a blank.

[1510] It's cozy.

[1511] It's a little chilly here in Los Angeles as we approach the favorite season of the year.

[1512] Oh, there's reindeer on the roof.

[1513] Oh, my gosh, they're here.

[1514] On dancer.

[1515] On prancer, on Vixen, on Blixen.

[1516] It's Christmas in here, and it's cold, but it's not really cold.

[1517] I feel really embarrassing.

[1518] It's cold.

[1519] It's like 70 to come.

[1520] Yeah, saying that it's cold is really disrespectful to any.

[1521] one on the East Coast in sub -zero temperatures.

[1522] We have a little space heater going.

[1523] Yeah, we do.

[1524] Oh, look at what the temperature is, Monica.

[1525] 65.

[1526] Oh, from where I'm at, it looked like 69.

[1527] Yeah, you wanted that.

[1528] All right, let's clean it up.

[1529] That's my second curvy thing, and I'm going to write the ship now and get my head out of the gutter.

[1530] But you do have a blanket, and you're also in a nice, thick, warm overall, and a eternal neck in a long sleeve.

[1531] and we have a space heater pointed at you and it's 70 degrees outside.

[1532] Yeah, you adjust quickly to this weather that we have here in Los Angeles.

[1533] Yes, my skin got thin very quickly after moving to...

[1534] Oh, they're leaving.

[1535] All right, well, bye guys.

[1536] We'll see him in a couple weeks.

[1537] Oh, yeah, hopefully they'll be back.

[1538] Maybe they're just doing a little trial run to get their route down.

[1539] That would be smart.

[1540] I assume they do that.

[1541] Should I address this thing that came out about me saying that our kids don't believe in Santa Claus is this the place to clear that up first thing I want to say about that I shouldn't even admitted to that I got caught off guard in an interview and the one of them was about you know is you know how excited my girls are for Santa Claus coming do I take them to see Santa Claus after about the fourth I just was lying line line finally I just said you know what they don't believe in Santa Claus there's been some angry parents online the first thing I need to say and you've been witness to this the first thing is you are not allowed to ruin this for any else other kids believe in it and you are absolutely forbidden to say anything to them yep and I've seen it in practice because a lot of their friends believe in it and they'll just watch them talk about all the different things that are going to happen and they don't they haven't spoiled it for anyone that's good so no no threat to anyone else here's what happened for me I explained the concept to her and over the next month leading up to Christmas this was last year she just started poking holes in the logic right first it was well how does he go to every house then was how does he fit down the chimney.

[1542] Then it was, you know, why isn't the North Pole?

[1543] All these different things.

[1544] And I was going along, you know, going with the standard lies you tell to head that off.

[1545] And then I just saw at a certain point, I was just looking at her little face.

[1546] And she had this critical mind that was finding holes in the logic.

[1547] And I was basically forcing her to ignore her critical thinking.

[1548] Yeah.

[1549] And then I just, I jogged my own memory.

[1550] I don't ever really remember believing.

[1551] And yet I love Christmas.

[1552] Yes.

[1553] I've had, I've had 42 wonderful Christmases.

[1554] I also thought, is that, is Christmas about Santa, whether or not he's a real guy?

[1555] No, it's about getting together with your family and showering them with love and affection and presents.

[1556] Yeah.

[1557] That's what's great about Christmas, all the decorations.

[1558] Anywho.

[1559] So, yeah, that's what happened.

[1560] And I understand if you're mad at us.

[1561] But, you know, it's just my decision that I just, at a certain point, I couldn't just, keep telling her to ignore that clever little part of her brain that was calling bullshit.

[1562] Are they mad because their kids heard you say this or are they mad?

[1563] Why are they mad?

[1564] Well, one gentleman on Twitter went so far as to say, you know, that I said every parent's lying to their kids.

[1565] Well, I haven't said a single thing about other parents.

[1566] I'm just saying my own experience.

[1567] I'm very happy for everyone to do it.

[1568] I have zero judge.

[1569] I don't want anyone to do what I'm doing.

[1570] I'm not trying to do what anyone else is doing.

[1571] I'm, I'm the, couldn't be less judgmental about what you do with your kids.

[1572] Yeah.

[1573] I don't care.

[1574] Yeah, do.

[1575] Everyone's going to do what they want to do.

[1576] And they should do that.

[1577] I just thought, oh, here's this.

[1578] I'm seeing the best part of her brain at work, her critical thinking.

[1579] And I'm going to silence that.

[1580] For what victory?

[1581] What's it getting?

[1582] They're still so excited about Christmas.

[1583] They're still just excited to get presents.

[1584] Oh, another thing she said, I remember this one.

[1585] really unraveled.

[1586] She had asked Santa for a present.

[1587] And then Santa had come to our house.

[1588] But then we went to Grandma's house in Oregon.

[1589] And one of the presents she told Santa was under that tree.

[1590] And she's like, wait a minute.

[1591] How did this, he already came and he, what did he tell grandma to get this thing?

[1592] And now the lie I was going to have to come up was going to be so elaborate.

[1593] Yeah.

[1594] What am I doing?

[1595] I think parents generally, they almost, um, They, like, mirror God onto Santa.

[1596] Like, they make Santa, like, omniscient and just has the ability to know everything at all times and can adjust.

[1597] Only knows when you're sleeping.

[1598] Oh, he does.

[1599] He knows everything.

[1600] So he, um...

[1601] He's God.

[1602] He is.

[1603] So if he, if the present appeared somewhere else, it's just like, oh, well, yeah, yep, this Santa knows.

[1604] Santa knew we were coming here.

[1605] Like, there's all these, there's all these shortcuts by just making Santa someone.

[1606] who knows everything.

[1607] Yeah, and then you know you're at the mall, you see a turkey dressed as old St. Nick, and then you leave the mall, and there's a turkey also dresses him ringing a bell for Salvation Army.

[1608] Then you see three, four more on the way home.

[1609] How are you, it just...

[1610] I know, it's a lot.

[1611] If it were literally just about saying, oh, this guy comes in and that was the end of the line, I could definitely have just dealt with that.

[1612] But when it gets into, like, the teens where I'm, like, daily, hourly.

[1613] Yeah, I know.

[1614] I just, what's really funny, though, is one time we went out to eat with Sam Harris, and he was saying they told their kids that, you know.

[1615] I'm even reluctant to talk about this out loud in case someone's listening and there's a kid in their car.

[1616] That's how scared I mean.

[1617] Well, that is bad.

[1618] Yeah.

[1619] Oh, boy.

[1620] And I got to say when he was telling us, Chris and I were shocked.

[1621] We're like, oh, get over it.

[1622] You can have one lie to make Christmas fun.

[1623] We were very judgmental of him.

[1624] Yes.

[1625] So I totally understand people being judgmental of me. We're like, come on, dude.

[1626] I know you're all about honesty and stuff, but you can fib one time.

[1627] Well, it depends on each kid.

[1628] It's just dependent on the kid and the parents and that relationship.

[1629] It's not like, it's not bad to believe in Santa.

[1630] I think it was so fun.

[1631] It really was so fun.

[1632] Yeah, that's great.

[1633] Mine got ruined.

[1634] My Jewish friend ruined it.

[1635] Of course.

[1636] Same Jewish friend you were going to call about the, Different Jewish friends.

[1637] Okay, good.

[1638] So you have more than one.

[1639] Well, you know, it's really funny, though, is that the littler girl, the three -year -old, she knows yet she doesn't know.

[1640] She knows, yet she still believes in him, which is awesome.

[1641] I don't think she knows.

[1642] We pulled into Eric's house this weekend, and the song was on the radio.

[1643] He knows when you've been sleeping.

[1644] He knows when you're awake.

[1645] And all of a sudden, she goes from the back seat.

[1646] Daddy, he knows when we're awake.

[1647] And I'm like, yeah, he knows.

[1648] I'm like, I don't even know what that meant to her.

[1649] I want her to believe for a long time.

[1650] Yeah, she seems to believe even though.

[1651] She's so funny and fun.

[1652] Yeah, she's engaging a different part of her mind than her critical.

[1653] She is.

[1654] Which is also important to do.

[1655] Yeah, she's queen imagination.

[1656] She is.

[1657] And the other one's just the facts, miss. Well, there's a really good, everyone probably already knows about this, but there's a really good this American life.

[1658] There's like a whole episode about Christmas and Santa, and there's one very specific story that people should go listen to.

[1659] That they're this family and the parents were like super gung -ho about Santa being real.

[1660] Okay.

[1661] And they would create these elaborate, I mean, elaborate schemes basically to trick the kids into thinking it.

[1662] And then like the aftermath of when they found.

[1663] that he wasn't real and, like, trauma, like, some, like, PTSD for real.

[1664] It's really interesting.

[1665] I think that's great, though.

[1666] I think if you, like, if you're willing to try to crawl down your own chimney and stuff to perpetuate it, I think it's great.

[1667] But except when you believe so deeply in something and, like, an unwavering sense, and then that gets shattered, it is, that is traumatic.

[1668] And just, we're just saying sand.

[1669] here because that's what we're talking about but in general in life when people lose their faith it's horrible i mean that's so this you run a risk of this being like that for kids or whenever they realize well yeah the cynical side of me is like oh this is all baked into the strategy it's like you introduce them to a concept early on just believe without proof and you're going to find all these loopholes but just ignore those yeah because your parents said so and it just kind of primes the pomp for, you know, other stuff.

[1670] Yeah, yeah.

[1671] Again, no disrespect to anyone.

[1672] No, and Santa's great.

[1673] I think, again, I'm envious of people who are religious.

[1674] It seems to me, well, certain friends of mine, it seems like a better way to live.

[1675] It's not for me, but.

[1676] Well, not better.

[1677] Because they seem happier and more fulfilled.

[1678] Well, we don't know.

[1679] They seem very happy, but I don't know that their happiness and their contentment comes from that.

[1680] Let me rephrase it.

[1681] I have friends that I can see that they have Jesus in their heart, and it looks good.

[1682] Like, I would love to feel that in my heart.

[1683] But you have other stuff in your heart that looks good.

[1684] Yeah.

[1685] Okay, let's start.

[1686] Oh, first of all, I think that you guys, Sean, you guys have such a nice relationship.

[1687] Oh.

[1688] And it's sweet and cute.

[1689] I really love my relationship with him.

[1690] Yeah.

[1691] He is really the sweetest boy.

[1692] I think I probably said it, but for me, it was pretty much love at first sight.

[1693] Okay.

[1694] So he talks about the opera a little bit.

[1695] And we were wondering what percentage of operas are Italian.

[1696] I found one number that was 41%.

[1697] Okay.

[1698] But I don't know how accurate that is.

[1699] There wasn't very many numbers on it.

[1700] 41 % is the number I saw.

[1701] But it was born in Italy, opera.

[1702] I just remember someone telling me if it's not an Italian, it's not opera, it's something else.

[1703] Again, now this will be the second time I'm wrong about this, but someone did tell me that.

[1704] Oh, I don't, like it's not champagne if it's not made in champagne for hands.

[1705] Exactly, exactly.

[1706] That exact thing.

[1707] I don't think so.

[1708] But maybe, but I don't think so.

[1709] Donald Trump is.

[1710] Donald J. Trump is 6 .3.

[1711] Dang, Gene.

[1712] I know.

[1713] He's tall.

[1714] That boy's got height.

[1715] I know.

[1716] Kind of started liking him after I read that.

[1717] Those shoulders must be broad as hell.

[1718] I mean, but it actually, it's interesting that he's six three.

[1719] Because his hands might be normal size.

[1720] Now we think about it.

[1721] It's just a proportional thing.

[1722] Yeah.

[1723] But it makes sense.

[1724] Like his presence is big.

[1725] Oh, yeah.

[1726] Yeah.

[1727] It clearly has a presence.

[1728] Yeah, and I'm sure that is part of it.

[1729] Like, his little physical presence is large.

[1730] Mm -hmm.

[1731] So I'm sure that's all part of it.

[1732] It's interesting.

[1733] I thought he was like 5 -11.

[1734] Well, and we don't really talk about it often, but height privilege is a real thing.

[1735] If you're a taller dude, you're going to get taken more serious all the time.

[1736] I know.

[1737] Yeah.

[1738] Well, are you going to get taken more seriously or are you just...

[1739] Well, up to a certain point.

[1740] After that, you look like a fucking giraffe.

[1741] And people are just like, oh, man, look at that freak.

[1742] It's probably not helpful then.

[1743] I wonder what the cutoff is.

[1744] I'm going to say my height.

[1745] No, don't say that.

[1746] We have a friend who's much taller than you.

[1747] I know.

[1748] And I think if Jess came in for an interview, you'd be like, look at this.

[1749] You'd be so distracted with how tall.

[1750] I think it might be a disservice to him.

[1751] To be so tall.

[1752] He's so tall.

[1753] He is.

[1754] Like when you first meet him, all you can think about is how tall he is.

[1755] I know, but I kind of, I don't think that's a disservice.

[1756] I think that's a cool thing that makes you.

[1757] stand out, no pun intended.

[1758] Well, intent that pun.

[1759] Why not?

[1760] Because, yeah, because you always remember, oh, Jess, that, my tall friend.

[1761] And then it's like, oh, yeah, that guy.

[1762] He has a lot of things like that, red hair and tall.

[1763] He does.

[1764] But I guess this, like, kind of thing where it imbudes a sense of confidence and leadership and all those things, I think at a certain height it starts breaking down where you're like, that guy might be too tall.

[1765] Can a heart support that kind of frames?

[1766] Frames, like, is he a mutation?

[1767] Well, he is because he has red hair.

[1768] He has a lot of mutations.

[1769] He does have a lot of mutations.

[1770] That's why he's so goddamn special.

[1771] Yeah.

[1772] But when you see the pictures of Waldo, the guy in the Gittes Book of World Record.

[1773] Where's, oh.

[1774] No, not where's Waldo.

[1775] He's very average height.

[1776] But the Waldo from the Guinness Book of World Record, who's the tallest man ever.

[1777] I think he was like 8 -11 or something.

[1778] When you see a picture of that guy, your first thought isn't like he should lead us into battle.

[1779] It's like, that guy needs a chair.

[1780] Right.

[1781] We got to get him off his feet.

[1782] That's true.

[1783] This is not healthy.

[1784] I'm worried about him.

[1785] But what about basketball players?

[1786] We're not worried about them and they're very tall.

[1787] I worry about some of them.

[1788] You do?

[1789] The centers, yeah.

[1790] Oh.

[1791] Yeah, especially like the white centers.

[1792] Some of these white centers, I think, do they have acromegaly, that disorder where you have a tumor on your pituitary gland like Andre the Giant had?

[1793] Now, when I see Shaq, I don't think that at all because he's so proportionally, he's muscular.

[1794] Yeah.

[1795] You know, it doesn't look, it looks right.

[1796] But some of these other folks, I just, I was worried about their heart and stuff.

[1797] Okay.

[1798] Well, that's nice of you to care so much.

[1799] You don't see a lot of talk.

[1800] I always point this out to you.

[1801] This is why I think I'm going to die in my 60s because you don't see any grandpas at like 6 '3.

[1802] Right.

[1803] You never see it.

[1804] We already discussed this.

[1805] You shrink.

[1806] I don't think you could shrink that much.

[1807] Well, I...

[1808] Like, how much is Jess going to shrink?

[1809] You think Jess is ever going to be 6 '1?

[1810] Yeah.

[1811] I think he's going to get down to 5 .5.

[1812] No, he's going to stay this height until about 59 years old.

[1813] And then we're going to get a tragic hole.

[1814] How dare you?

[1815] No. No, no, no. You shrink some and then you also, your back, you get scoliosis.

[1816] Okay.

[1817] So all adds up to being.

[1818] Many, many inches shorter.

[1819] Yeah, but, again, you don't.

[1820] Well, we just lost George Bush, senior.

[1821] Rest in Peace.

[1822] He, I believe, was pretty tall even as a grandpa.

[1823] He's like one of the few people I have to look towards.

[1824] Okay.

[1825] I stand by shrinking in scoliosis, though.

[1826] Okay.

[1827] Okay.

[1828] What network was Elin on when it got canceled because of the episode where she comes out?

[1829] That was ABC.

[1830] ABC.

[1831] Sean was nominated for seven Emmys.

[1832] Oh, my gosh.

[1833] I know.

[1834] He couldn't remember.

[1835] What a pig.

[1836] I know.

[1837] What a pig.

[1838] I know.

[1839] He deserved it, though.

[1840] I've heard about people taking themselves out of, like, I think he used to be.

[1841] Well, it used to be, maybe it's still the same thing.

[1842] You actually have to submit.

[1843] So if you don't submit.

[1844] You do have to submit, yeah.

[1845] Yeah, I want to say Tommy Shlami, because he won like seven years in a row for West Wing, best director.

[1846] and he started feeling self -conscious about it, and I think he stopped submitting.

[1847] Oh, that's my dream.

[1848] To be winning so much that you have to say, I'm just so self -conscious about winning so much, and I just got to take myself out of the running.

[1849] Oh, what a great segue.

[1850] So I've never gotten first place in my life, I don't think.

[1851] I was really going through my memory, and I don't think I've ever gotten first place at anything.

[1852] Okay.

[1853] And this year, you Wobby -Wob and me got my.

[1854] most downloaded new podcast of 2018, which was a gigantic, exciting revelation that I feel so grateful for.

[1855] Yeah.

[1856] And I was thinking that I really wanted to publicly thank some of our earlier guests that really helped get us on the map.

[1857] Yeah.

[1858] Everyone who came on helped us.

[1859] Yeah.

[1860] Because our show is good because of our guests.

[1861] That's true.

[1862] Those folks really helped us launch big.

[1863] And they had never heard it.

[1864] It could have been the worst show in the world.

[1865] and they kind of on blind faith took a chance.

[1866] Yeah, thanks to everyone.

[1867] Yeah, thanks everybody.

[1868] Congrats on your number one.

[1869] Our number one.

[1870] Well, yeah, but I've been number one before.

[1871] Oh, that's right.

[1872] I see what you're saying.

[1873] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1874] I'm glad you pointed that out.

[1875] Oh, okay.

[1876] What are the right to die states?

[1877] What do you think they are?

[1878] Oregon.

[1879] California.

[1880] It is?

[1881] Yeah, I was surprised too.

[1882] Oh, that's great news.

[1883] Uh -huh.

[1884] Assisted suicide, assisted death is legal in Washington, D .C. and the states of California, Colorado, Oregon, Vermont, Hawaii, and Washington.

[1885] Its status is disputed in Montana.

[1886] Okay.

[1887] Cool.

[1888] I guess because we talk in our policy genius ad, you ask me how you think I'm going to die.

[1889] So maybe I'll die through assisted death.

[1890] Maybe you'll kill me. Okay.

[1891] Look, um, if you ask me to, if you put me in.

[1892] in your death plan, I'll be there for you.

[1893] Okay.

[1894] In the 9 ,000 to one chance I live longer than you will do that.

[1895] Okay.

[1896] I told you once about this questionnaire about intimate, this like 30 -something questions to, to increase intimacy.

[1897] And one of them is, do you have a sense of how you're going to die?

[1898] That was one of the questions.

[1899] And I played this at dinner party.

[1900] We went through all the questions.

[1901] and my best friend immediately said that she thought she was going to get hit by a car.

[1902] And she was so...

[1903] Adamant?

[1904] Like, she was just confident.

[1905] Like, that is, that's what it is.

[1906] And then for weeks after, every time I was walking down the street, I kept thinking about her getting hit by a car.

[1907] And I did not like that.

[1908] Well, and here is the great paradox of both you and I, which is you don't believe in any kind of intelligent designer of the union.

[1909] or St. Nick, yet you have a lot of weird superstitions that clearly someone would have to be in charge of.

[1910] In charge of, yes.

[1911] That being one of them, even me saying I'm going to die in my 60s.

[1912] You think I'm jinxing myself and I might die, but I don't think that can happen.

[1913] But I, look, I don't believe in somebody orchestrating all of this, but I do believe that where you place your energy can come back to you.

[1914] happened to me all the time that's true i you're talking about manifesting your destiny yeah it happens a lot i agree with that again that's another loophole in my you know but i don't think it has to do with um like a person listening and then and then bring it all back around it's just i think when you put your energy into something mentally subconsciously you start doing things to get there and you're not really aware that that's happening but and avoiding roadblocks and stuff could you use your new squinty face that we've been practicing Monica and I noticed that a lot of people when they squint they expose their teeth really far and almost do an overbite yeah when they're really looking at and we've been trying to and they squint their eyes and they lift their nose yeah and their teeth are exposed and then they kind of drop their mandible back and it's you give yourself buck teeth.

[1915] Yeah.

[1916] Kind of a double chin.

[1917] It's quite a look.

[1918] Yeah, it is.

[1919] Okay, just real quick.

[1920] Towards the end, you say, I don't really remember the context, but you say that you have a lot of knucklehead friends who say, like, I'm dating this girl and she's a 10 and she's this and she's that, but I'm not really sure.

[1921] And then you say, well, you just got to.

[1922] to just decide and then that's what it is.

[1923] Mm -hmm.

[1924] And I don't think I agree.

[1925] Oh, okay.

[1926] That's good.

[1927] You dissent.

[1928] I dissent on that a little bit, I think.

[1929] I mean, I just think you should be pretty sure before you pulled the trigger on a lifelong relationship.

[1930] But I believe that'll be revealed if you treat it like a lifetime relationship and that'll be revealed.

[1931] But living evaluating prevents you from fully committing, which actually prevents you from actually knowing what the person's like when they feel safe and confident in their best self.

[1932] So you're evaluating someone who you've not given that security to.

[1933] So how on earth can you evaluate that person?

[1934] That's true.

[1935] That's true.

[1936] But my other example is you drop any two people on a deserted island.

[1937] They're going to be in love and be partners eventually.

[1938] I know.

[1939] I don't think that.

[1940] I think you'd come to love them.

[1941] Yeah.

[1942] I think you might come to love them.

[1943] But I don't think you might, you would come to romance.

[1944] Come to come.

[1945] You don't think you'd come to come.

[1946] Well, good.

[1947] We'd sort of go back around to something gross.

[1948] Yeah, well, look, it's like the example of, you know, that even in prison, the option between solitary confinement versus being buddies with a bunch of rapists and murders, it's still way more appealing to be buddies with rapists and murders.

[1949] Companionship, yes.

[1950] I think we seek that all, and we will find it.

[1951] I think it's our lifeblood.

[1952] Yes, companionship.

[1953] Me too.

[1954] But that's not necessarily the same as romantic.

[1955] Yeah.

[1956] I don't know.

[1957] I guess it's what you prioritize in a relationship.

[1958] Your grandparents.

[1959] I know.

[1960] Were arranged.

[1961] Yeah.

[1962] And they loved each other.

[1963] Yeah.

[1964] I mean, they love each other.

[1965] now yeah but i just think that the endless evaluating of is this the perfect person i just think that people generally walk around with this romantic notion that there's a perfect person which i just think is horseshit i think you find someone that's got some values that you have um that you think would be a a nurturing loving partner and you decide to make a goal of it together and then you work out all the details as they come up you have to be attracted to that person There are so many people who I think are wonderful and great, and I'm not attracted.

[1966] I had girlfriends that I was way more attracted to than Kristen when we got together, but I had a different priority list when we got together.

[1967] And then, lo and behold, in the other relationships where the attraction actually dissipated, in her and I's relationship, the attraction grew.

[1968] Mm -hmm.

[1969] So it's all backwards and counterintuitive to me. Yeah.

[1970] Just in my experience.

[1971] Yeah.

[1972] Anyhow, that's all.

[1973] That was it?

[1974] Yeah.

[1975] Well, one thing happened on Instagram last week.

[1976] Somebody, I'm really embarrassed because so I don't really respond to comments.

[1977] Arm cherries, I don't respond to comments very often.

[1978] So don't get your feelings heard if I'm not responding.

[1979] But what happened is, and I'll be honest here, I accidentally posted Jonathan Haight on my Instagram.

[1980] Oh, interesting.

[1981] Because I post for our armchair expert Instagram.

[1982] Yeah.

[1983] And I also, sorry guys, I also have access to Kristen Bell's Instagram.

[1984] So I have three Instagram accounts on my Instagram.

[1985] That's confusing.

[1986] Sometimes.

[1987] Why don't you post our episodes on hers?

[1988] Really go through the roof.

[1989] I should.

[1990] And so the morning that I was supposed to post on armchair expert, I accidentally posted on mine and when I figured it out it was too late I already had about a thousand likes okay so I said all right I'll just keep it and then I'll add to hours but because of that I saw a comment on mine yeah and it said I wish it said something along the lines of I wish there were more facts or you stuck more to the facts and it feels like you've been attacking Dax.

[1991] Oh, someone's being defensive of me?

[1992] Oh, boy.

[1993] And then I responded and I'm upset that I responded.

[1994] I mean, look, this person seems lovely and nice.

[1995] It's fine that I responded to her, but I don't like that I responded to the one comment that I thought was negative.

[1996] The negative one, yep.

[1997] Yeah, because everyone was saying all kinds of nice stuff, and then I responded to that one.

[1998] I fall into that trap pretty often, too.

[1999] I'm not as much anymore, but there used to be a real problem of mine.

[2000] I don't normally.

[2001] Yeah, but you know that you love me and you want to clear up right away that you wouldn't be attacking me, I'm sure.

[2002] It feels really important.

[2003] But while you were telling that story, it occurred to me, what an idiot I am.

[2004] Here I was thanking those people who were guests on our show.

[2005] What an idiot I am.

[2006] I need to thank first and foremost, arm cherries.

[2007] All the people listening to this gave us this.

[2008] They're the reason.

[2009] They're the reason we have it.

[2010] They gave us this.

[2011] The armed cherries gave us this.

[2012] And I'm so grateful for the arm cherries.

[2013] I know.

[2014] I want a jerk I was that I, that should have been my very first thank you.

[2015] That's okay.

[2016] All right.

[2017] Well, I apologize and I'm very grateful.

[2018] And do you feel attacked?

[2019] No, I don't feel like you're attacking me. I feel like you and I have different opinions sometimes.

[2020] Mm -hmm.

[2021] Yeah, I think that we do.

[2022] And it's not an attack to bring up a counterpoint to an opinion.

[2023] It's more of an assault.

[2024] Okay, that's all then.

[2025] All right.

[2026] Yeah.

[2027] I love you.

[2028] Love you.

[2029] Oh, wait a minute.

[2030] Look who's returning.

[2031] They're back.

[2032] Do you think they dropped their scarf or something?

[2033] Someone left their phone on the roof.

[2034] Oh, yeah, yeah, sure.

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