#363 – B-Team Jiu Jitsu: Craig Jones, Nicky Rod, and Nicky Ryan

[0] The following is a conversation with Craig Jones, Nicky Rod, and Nikki Ryan, who together with Ethan Krelinston and others, make up the B team, a legendary jiu -jitsu team here in Austin, Texas.

[1] It was formed after the so -called Donahar Death Squad, the team headed by John Donahar split up, into new wave jihitsu and B -team Jiu -Jitsu, both located here in Austin, Texas.

[2] There has been a lot of trash talk back and forth, including accusations of greasing and steroid use.

[3] And I, as a practitioner and fan of grappling, jiu -jitsu, and martial arts in general, am here for it.

[4] To see the best grapplers in history go at it, both on the mat and on Instagram.

[5] I like the people on both teams and train with both, and am really happy to see the exciting, rapid evolution of the sport that these athletes and coaches are catalyzing.

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[20] There's that quote from Jack Kerouac, the book on the road that I recently finished reading, rereading, rereading for like, I don't know, the 10th at least time in my life.

[21] And there's a quote in there about the mad ones.

[22] The main character, Sal, it's strange how bad my memory is, but something tells me that his last name is Paradise, Sal Paradise, and Dean Moriarty.

[23] And Sal is Jack Kerouac, and the real -life name of Dean Moriarty, I don't remember, but the character name is Dean Moriarty, and he represents sort of the weird, the crazy, the chaotic, friend, shaman, guide through life, the drop of poison in a perfectly calm drink or a perfectly calm pond or town like Tom Wade says.

[24] Anyway, those people and that part of ourselves is really powerful, that weirdness, that darkness, that chaos.

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[29] As I record these very words, it is extremely late at night.

[30] It has been a long night before then and a long day.

[31] And the thing that carries me through is a beautiful power nap, or a couple of those.

[32] When I'm deprived down sleep, because of various curveballs that life throws at me, as it does for everybody, I think I at least maintain my sanity and my well -being by taking power naps.

[33] Sometimes I'll actually drink a coffee right before the nap, and I take that nap.

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[35] Not like now.

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[42] It is delicious.

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[57] And now, dear friends, here's Craig Jones, Nikki Rod, and Nicky Ryan.

[58] Craig, can you introduce everyone?

[59] Yep, so we got Nicky Rod here, Brown Belt, two -time ADCC silver medalist, Nikki Ryan here.

[60] That's it.

[61] Who are you?

[62] And I'm Craig Jones, also two -time ADCC, silver medalist.

[63] Silver medalist.

[64] So the number one loser.

[65] Number one loser.

[66] And maybe a little bit more.

[67] Your bio says, widely known as the Black Belt Slayer, Hails from New Jersey, the land of pizza and biceps.

[68] Yes, that's pretty accurate.

[69] Okay.

[70] You also do carry gun on you a lot?

[71] Yeah, I keep it loaded, you know, keep it on me. You have one today?

[72] In the car.

[73] That was a mistake.

[74] It was your first mistake.

[75] Yeah, I think you're too close.

[76] Very uncomfortable.

[77] And you are, Nicky, Ryan.

[78] What else is there?

[79] What else do we know?

[80] Gordon Ryan's brother.

[81] Gordon Ryan's brother.

[82] Let's look for that one.

[83] All right.

[84] So, and you're all together part of the leadership of the B team here in Austin.

[85] Let's just get out some introductory questions.

[86] What in general accomplishment of the things you mentioned are you most proud of?

[87] I mean, I'm proud just to.

[88] not have to work a full -time job just to get by on the bullshit I've done so far.

[89] Yeah.

[90] Just making money of a thing you love.

[91] Exactly, yeah.

[92] When was the first time you made money on a thing you love?

[93] Probably a jih Tornment.

[94] I think maybe in Abu Dhabi where I won $1 ,000, thought I was rich.

[95] Yeah.

[96] Would you spend $1 ,000 on?

[97] Probably something bad.

[98] Probably drugs or something at the time.

[99] Maybe blew it at the after party.

[100] That's a good introduction to Craig.

[101] So what about you?

[102] When's the first time you made money on jiu -jitsu?

[103] Or what's actually stepping back?

[104] Like, what's the thing you're most proud of?

[105] Is it a similar kind of thing?

[106] I think I'm most proud of is, I mean, for sure, two 80 -cc -silver metals, which hurts because you're so close to getting that gold.

[107] But, you know, it takes time.

[108] I'm understanding that, you know, sport of jih Tutsu takes quite a while to be at the tip -top to be the absolute best.

[109] So, you know, I'm just being consistent in my training and my craft and, you know, get that number one spot one day.

[110] What failure or loss is the most painful to you?

[111] I don't know.

[112] I have a pretty short -term memory, so my loss is I just like, I'll just forget about it.

[113] Yeah, I mean, for sure, my loss at this past 80 CC in the finals, you know, that one's sung a bit because I definitely thought I was going to win.

[114] I mean, like, it takes a while to produce the skills or the reactions more so that you need to have to be, you know, to be that number one pound for pound guy.

[115] And, you know, pre -ADCC I was coming off of injury, so it took me a little bit to find the right mentality and physicality that I needed in order to, you know, get the wins that required gold.

[116] So, yeah, it's just process.

[117] Interesting.

[118] You keep saying process.

[119] Like, it takes a while to build up.

[120] So you're not, like, thinking of a loss, like, ADCC is, like, specific failures.

[121] You're not, you haven't gone long enough in a particular process to being a champ.

[122] Well, I mean, for me, I'm coming, I'm closing in on five years of specifically, jitsu training i'm about about four and a half right now and um yeah it's just uh you kind you constantly have these ups and downs and training where like as long as you stay consistent you'll have a gradual raise but you know it's still you'll have these uh peaks and lows and you know just just trying to get better every day i'm i'm definitely not where i will be in in a few years in a few years from now but i'm my striving to get there are you actually a brown belt was that a joke brown belt Yeah, you're a brown boat.

[123] Like, how many stripes?

[124] No stripes.

[125] No stripes.

[126] Stripless.

[127] Okay.

[128] Is that part of the process that you're working through?

[129] Definitely part of the process.

[130] I mean, I think a black belt is just based upon how much knowledge you have.

[131] Obviously, like, you know, if you're talking competitive -wise, like, for when I started, I was able to beat most black belts.

[132] So it's just kind of how I was gifted from my wrestling experience.

[133] And, you know, the time will come when it's right, but I'm not in a rush at all.

[134] I'm continuing that.

[135] I just kind of take every day for what it is and try to improve upon that.

[136] I mean, I want to give him the black belt.

[137] Nikki Ryan says he's not ready.

[138] What is, are you guys, like as no geek folks, do you take that seriously?

[139] Like the black boat?

[140] Or like how much does it come into play into?

[141] Yeah, I mean, it's like Nicky Rod said, you know, it's based off of knowledge, not just, you know, what you do at on the competition mats because, you know, like he said, he had years of wrestling experience and obviously he's very physically gifted.

[142] So we grade based off of the amount of knowledge that you have.

[143] Like, how do you measure knowledge?

[144] I think teaching is a good measurement of it, like how well you're able to show the moves and, you know, really make sure that you have an understanding of what you're doing.

[145] Yeah, it's an interesting rank.

[146] It's like something that takes many years to accomplish.

[147] And for a lot of people, it's truly meaningful.

[148] It's like it represents a particular step in a journey.

[149] But for you guys, it's almost like different because you've been so focused on competition that I guess if you take it seriously, it is a big step for you too.

[150] it like as martial artists that that's bigger than just being like top of the world competitors right so i thought it was a joke you guys are actually taking it seriously like that he's a brown belt and he's and you're taking seriously the rank of black belt and like it's part of it's part of your journey i think about the time i get a blackout i'll be no one pound for pound i think it'd be pretty uh nice to accomplish that as a brown belt and then maybe toss a black belt on top Maybe get promoted on the podium.

[151] What do you guys, do you love winning or hate losing more?

[152] I definitely don't hate losing.

[153] If it pays the bills, I don't mind.

[154] Oh, really?

[155] Yeah, but honestly, if I win, I feel more relief than anything rather than like excitement and stuff.

[156] I'm like, oh, fuck, thank God that's over, you know?

[157] I hate losing for sure.

[158] But I understand that it's necessary to get, you know, to get to where you want to be.

[159] And then winning is like, I mean, what I think, winning is probably the closest you can think you can get to, like, heroin or something.

[160] Because, I mean, we're on a, like, if you do have extreme success in a torment that you've been, you know, adamant about training for and competing in for a while, and you end up winning it on me. I feel like you're on that high for days at a time afterwards.

[161] Heroin's going to be better.

[162] Do you think so?

[163] I'm a mistake with no, but.

[164] I'm not going to suck dick to win.

[165] You suck that for heroin?

[166] Okay.

[167] I guess that's a good boy, yeah.

[168] But you know, because you're coming from a little bit of wrestling culture, one of the things I really love is at the end of the match, when they lose, they just, there's no, they just run off.

[169] They're, like, almost pissed off.

[170] It's like some mixture of anger and frustration at themselves.

[171] I think sometimes people, like, freak out on the mat.

[172] And I think that's just to show everybody, like, they're acting like they cared a lot.

[173] And really, maybe they didn't work enough to, you know, get to where they, they went to where they expect it to be and they lost and then they had this big boost of emotion like after their after their loss but uh yeah i mean shouldn't i think you just cry in the mirror not to everybody else you know um what have you ever cried watching a movie i don't think i've ever cried period okay have you cried watching a movie not yet not yet the notebook i try to avoid those movies actually i lie actually titanic the last part of a difficult wake up for me is i try to find a sad movie and at least cry I bet a pound out that really gets me over the line low energy cutting the tears um there's other following uh liquids i could talk to you about but let's just let's just let's just continue on low energy what um what about you nicky uh love of winning versus hate of losing i'm a very competitive person so i for sure hate losing more than i like winning I do think it's something that's kind of held me back over the past few years because it makes it so that I'm not as active as I should be because it's like I really hate that feeling of, you know, after a match that you just lost.

[174] So it kind of prevents me from competing, so it's definitely something I need to work past.

[175] So like when you think about a competition, the possibility of losing, which is always there in competition, is the thing that like weighs heavy on you in the months and weeks leading up to it.

[176] Yeah, my whole life.

[177] you know my financial stability everything depends on you know my ability to go out there and compete and my ability to teach uh so you know it's it's a huge hit to the brand if you lose so you know leading up to matches that's that's definitely something that's in my mind i know you so you guys are like world class athletes but for me more like a hobbyist competitor i compete a lot the thing i was uh because i really wanted to win the thing i was probably most afraid i was not just losing but like embarrassing myself yeah even even actually winning by stalling.

[178] That was the thing I hated the most about myself in terms of crying in the mirror is like being too afraid to take risks after I'm up on two points or something.

[179] I think you've got to competition, sometimes it's good to take the emotion out of it.

[180] It's too easy sometimes to like think about all my girls and in the crowd and my family's watching.

[181] Like I want to win because they're there.

[182] But at the highest level, if you're emotional at all, that's affecting you.

[183] Yeah.

[184] That's tough, though.

[185] That's tough, especially, like, leading up to it when you're on the map, maybe, but leading up to it.

[186] I think it's okay to be emotional prior.

[187] Like, you know, if we know ADCC or it's coming up, when we have a big match, like, definitely I'll go out in practice and I'll visualize.

[188] I'll put myself in that competition.

[189] That way, when it's game time, it's like I've been there a thousand times already.

[190] So not the actual competition, but even leading up to it, like stepping on the mat, like, all the walk towards it, all that?

[191] All that stuff.

[192] Like, I'll do the same exact warm up for weeks on end.

[193] until my competition day comes.

[194] That way, you know, when I compete, I'm just like, oh, it's another Tuesday at practice.

[195] What about you, Craig?

[196] How do you prepare mentally for a tournament, like ADCC?

[197] I push it completely out of my mind.

[198] Don't even think about it.

[199] Try to avoid any visualization, any rituals, warm -ups, anything like that.

[200] Block it out until the last second, yeah.

[201] Trying to think about it.

[202] I just got to train and to have fun, learn a bit.

[203] So I try to approach competition the exact same way.

[204] I don't warm up at training, do very little warm up for competition.

[205] Uh -huh.

[206] And you just step on the mat?

[207] Step on the mat.

[208] My philosophy is there's no warm -ups on the street.

[209] We're so vastly different.

[210] All right.

[211] So, like, legit don't warm up.

[212] No. I probably should now.

[213] I'm 31, but I would just, like, in the gym, take it easy the first round.

[214] You know, like, if I look around the room and Nikki Ryan's down, I might go, all right, we'll have an easier first round today.

[215] so even for like the most high stakes matches you try to push it out yeah i didn't even think about it what about like all the social like instagram posts you have to do about that match you just make a joke out of it and kind of yeah i mean it's kind of pretty silly you know we're just wrestling each other you know we put the meaning into it but to someone that doesn't feel the sport it looks stupid well all of human existence is pretty silly like what are we doing none of us really know what's going on.

[216] We kind of have sex to reproduce.

[217] We get hungry.

[218] We eat.

[219] And then we're all chasing money in cars and whatever the hell in a capitalist society or we worship a dictator in a authoritarian regime.

[220] Yeah.

[221] And then we get off on, we'll let power abuse us and then we just murder others because we get off on it.

[222] Yeah.

[223] And then eventually all of us will die because the sun will run out of energy because colonizing other planets is very difficult.

[224] So none of it matters.

[225] It's a good philosophy.

[226] It's pretty good.

[227] That's exactly what I was.

[228] How does the sun run out of energy?

[229] You call me there.

[230] It's burn out.

[231] It's like it's a nuclear fusion engine and eventually burns out.

[232] Like when you get tired of training.

[233] Yeah.

[234] It's never happened.

[235] I try to get tired.

[236] I just like, dude, it's not working.

[237] All right.

[238] Cool.

[239] So you legit don't care about losing.

[240] It doesn't weigh heavy on you.

[241] I try not to list.

[242] Like, if I win, I try to block out all the compliments, all the niceties and stuff.

[243] So I try to do the same with losing.

[244] It's happened, move on to the next one, you know?

[245] Don't dwell on it too much.

[246] And sometimes make a joke out of it.

[247] Yeah, exactly.

[248] Winning or losing, with the right joke, we can make money off of the event that's just transpired.

[249] That's what's most important.

[250] Excellent.

[251] Thank you.

[252] I have a bunch of your merch.

[253] Oh, nice.

[254] This one's the Jordan Burrows rip -off.

[255] All I see is silver.

[256] The way pronounced Burroughs is very...

[257] is very very sexy okay um i throw lines at people and i try to gauge your reaction like sometimes i'll say something i'll say something i'll be like all right that's probably crossing the line you don't mean we'll tone it down to the public so yeah yeah so it's not just right you have to think is it's crossing the line yeah yeah i get as close to it as possible yeah i feel like you can't really cross it just just a little bit just a little bit yeah okay speaking of which uh you said that i'm switzerland in World War II since I'm friends with both you and Gordon and John.

[258] Very rich country.

[259] Are you a Hitler or Stalin, by the way, in this analogy?

[260] Would you like to be Hitler or Stalin?

[261] And should you make a T -shirt out of it?

[262] I mean, a Nazi t -shirt, I don't know how well that sells.

[263] I think it would, you know, I think that let's brainstorm on this one offline.

[264] I think since Hitler lost, so you got second place in World War II?

[265] That's true, that's true.

[266] I think that makes you Hitler.

[267] Anyway, to the degree that you can, can you tell the story of how the time you've had with the Donahard Death Squad and why you split up?

[268] I competed against Gordon for ADCC and the EBI in 2017.

[269] And I remember I competed against my ADCC and then we had the EBI event.

[270] And then I had a Kassai.

[271] I used to compete all the time every week.

[272] I wouldn't even do the preparation or anything.

[273] I'd just be like trying to do seminars, make money, and then jump in and compete.

[274] I remember I showed up to Kassai after I faced him twice.

[275] And there were like four locker rooms, and they put me with all the DDS guys.

[276] It was just me and all of DDS.

[277] And I think we competed the weekend before.

[278] So I thought it was going to be super awkward, but it was actually pretty chill.

[279] And the Kassai was in New York, and they suggested to come train that week.

[280] So I came trained, hung out with them a bit.

[281] ultimately the goal was to move to America and join a bigger team just because that flight to Australia is death.

[282] Australia is so far away from everywhere.

[283] It's kind of like not realistic to base yourself in Australia when all the tournaments are in America.

[284] And then I went and trained with the guys and they just had a massive, massively deep talent pull in that room, like show up to like a meant to be 7am, actual 8 a .m. class on Brazilian time.

[285] And there'd be like a hundred people in there, maybe, I don't know how many black belts, but a ton of elite guys.

[286] And I was coming up from Australia, training with Loughlin Giles, but really that room was pretty shallow and like most people had serious jobs and stuff.

[287] So it was like basically me just training with Loughlin, maybe a couple of other guys.

[288] And then to go to New York and have access to a wide array of training partners and guys that are training twice each day.

[289] I feel like that's what you really need.

[290] You need people that can train as much as you are.

[291] You get humbled in that room at first?

[292] For sure, because my style at the time was basically a rip -off version of what they were doing.

[293] Leg locks came in.

[294] I remember just watching Eddie Cummings non -stop and just seeing this guy rip people's legs off.

[295] And I was like, you know what, that's probably a good move.

[296] You know, that looks like an easier path to victory than trying to beat these guys at what they're good at already, you know?

[297] My philosophy at the time was if it's bothering old Brazilians, it's bothering.

[298] them for a reason.

[299] It's probably effective.

[300] And that's the path I took to sort of try to rip off their moves.

[301] And then obviously to go into that room, try to do them to them, it's going to be a bit more difficult.

[302] All right.

[303] So that's how it started.

[304] How did you end up here?

[305] How do we end up here?

[306] We're in Austin, Texas.

[307] I mean, I like to think of Puerto Rico as apocalypse now.

[308] John Danaher as Colonel Kurtz.

[309] Things got very very.

[310] weird in the jungle and the teams went in two different directions.

[311] But honestly, I mean, it's not really my story to tell.

[312] I had some issues with some of those people.

[313] At the time of the split, I got along very well with John.

[314] I feel like me and him connected very well.

[315] I don't know why that was, maybe it was just because he missed home.

[316] He missed a familiar accent, Australian, New Zealand accent.

[317] But, I mean, I basically followed Nicky, left with Nicky, sort of that core group of guys left with Nicky.

[318] And I mean, I just back, there was personal problems that I just back Nicky, basically.

[319] Got it.

[320] Just sticking on you for a bit.

[321] Is there part of you that, you know, finds it heartbreaking that DDS split up?

[322] This part of you miss working with John and everybody?

[323] Now, can you steal me on the case for that?

[324] I mean, I miss certain aspects of it, but I also do prefer the freedom of being apart from.

[325] It's obviously a very strict regime under John Danaher.

[326] You know, obviously, there's parts of it.

[327] I miss, the past, the public doesn't see of John, the behind -the -scenes banter.

[328] I feel like he's very conscious of the image he portrays to the world.

[329] But basically, it closed doors, he's always making jokes, always finding, I guess, more in line with the Australian Kiwi sort of culture.

[330] But you don't really see that in the public eye.

[331] So that perspective, I do miss that relationship with John.

[332] in terms of setting aside personal differences Gordon was a good training partner definitely a good training partner to train with but obviously the negative things we can't really talk about outweighed all of those things and we obviously had to make a decision to leave but yeah is that happening in the jungle the things happen to the jungle shall never be spoken up that I personally cannot speak of yeah but obviously I do miss certain aspects like I mean nothing's all bad nothing's all good you know Yeah, this goes back to your like everything we're doing is silly.

[333] Yeah, exactly.

[334] That's why I don't get.

[335] People take it so serious, martial arts so serious.

[336] It's just pretty stupid, really.

[337] Especially in the ghee.

[338] It looks just, it looks bad.

[339] I mean, it's pretty silly with and without the ghee.

[340] It's just a bunch of apes.

[341] What's silly about, no ghee and what's silly about the ghee and just mixed and match bottom's that, you know what I mean?

[342] Wait, which one?

[343] Sambo.

[344] I see what you're doing.

[345] Brother.

[346] You come to my house and defend my people.

[347] All right.

[348] We're going to go to every dark place, apparently.

[349] Nick, how did you get with DDS?

[350] What was that journey like?

[351] Is there, try to see if there's things that you remember fondly that you've gotten from the experience?

[352] All right.

[353] So the way I started training with DDS, initially I was training for, like, well initially I was I was a bouncer right I was I dropped out of college to pursue this fitness modeling career I end up signing with a Willamita models up in New York and I was like trying to get in better shape while I was bouncing kind of the talk of like you know who's tougher came up between the wrestlers and a few of the bouncers they trained jiu jiu jitsu and you know they convinced me to go to practice and and I went to my first practice over there and for the most part I just controlled everybody got on top of them was able to avoid like kind of of like, you know, shitty submissions because I had, I had an awareness of the sport and, you know, I'm a fan of fighting and whatnot.

[354] So, you know, I kind of understood it pretty well.

[355] And then soon after that, I joined a school and my second week of Jujitsu, I started competing, had pretty good success.

[356] You know, I was, like, subbing a few black belts and beating everybody, like, you know, pretty decisively with points and stuff.

[357] And about three months into training locally, I got connected with Gordon, Gordon Ryan and John Danher up in New York.

[358] And I started, I committed to, you know, make the drive up there as many days as I could.

[359] At the, at the time, I lived in South Jersey.

[360] And it was about two and a half hour, three hour drive without traffic to New York, to the -year, where in South Jersey?

[361] Gloucester County, um, Clayton, New Jersey specifically, but Gloucester County.

[362] Yeah.

[363] So it was about, about 130 miles.

[364] And without traffic, you know, about two, two and a half hours or so.

[365] But on the way back, man, we'd be three plus sometimes, you know, you're catching that rush hour.

[366] What year was this?

[367] Do you remember?

[368] This was in 2018.

[369] For a bit.

[370] I forget how young you are.

[371] I was there before all that.

[372] All right, cool.

[373] Anyway, you're doing the long drive and then what?

[374] Yeah, doing the long drive.

[375] And then, you know, once I won 80 -CC trials, I was able to make a couple bucks.

[376] And then, you know, I got my silver medal at 80 -CC, and I was able to afford to live up there in New York in North Jersey area.

[377] So I lived up there, trained there full -time every day.

[378] And, you know, just kind of sucked with the team throughout the turbulent times and found ourselves in Austin.

[379] In the jungle.

[380] In the jungle, yeah.

[381] With the things we shall not speak of.

[382] What are there things that you remember that you've learned from John Donahar from your time you spent with him?

[383] Yeah, I mean, I definitely learned a ton from John and the team as a whole.

[384] Like, you know, you have to be the guy that asks questions in the type of environment, right?

[385] Because there's not, it's not, you're not going to get singled out to be that specific, like, star or the best guy in the room when you have all.

[386] all these other, you know, stud athletes.

[387] So I really had to seek out and figure out the kind of questions that I need to ask.

[388] And once I became a bit more verbal with my training, and, you know, I'm showing, I'm expressing all my curiosities about grappling to these guys.

[389] Definitely help boost my, boost my technique and my career as a whole.

[390] Yeah.

[391] Did you understand what kind of stuff, like, technically you want to get good at?

[392] What fits your body?

[393] What, like, what would be good for you?

[394] What are your weaknesses and all that?

[395] So initially, when I started grappling, I had an innate ability.

[396] to just get to opponent's back.

[397] So I was like, all right, I'm good at getting to the back.

[398] Let me perfect controlling the back and then submitting opponent via rear naked choke.

[399] And then besides that, I really focused on leglock defense and then eventually came the Roddylock pass where, you know, I'm really good at body lock pass on my opponents now.

[400] And yeah, it just takes quite a long time because you have to find different sequences.

[401] And then there's always these an abundance of opportunities that your opponent gets from these specific sequences.

[402] takes a while is there part of you that finds the fact that ds split up heartbreaking um i definitely you know having one person to go to that runs practice every day that's you know consistent um it was definitely it was definitely definitely a gift but now i'm also gifted with many many other partners i've nicky ryan um you know Craig jones yeah uh we have Ethan crelice Damien I understand.

[403] So a full team of knowledgeable athletes that I can continue to go to with multiple questions.

[404] But, yeah, definitely, it took me some time to adjust to training or to learning from, you know, specifically my team and not just one person.

[405] We should mention for people just listening because you can't visually see that Nikki Ryan is currently terrified and Craig Jones is currently enjoying the fact that Nicky, can you talk about your time with?

[406] DDS.

[407] I started training when I was like around 13.

[408] You know, my brother Gordon had started prior to me and I really just went into training just as like a means to exercise and lose weight at the beginning because I was pretty fat as a kid.

[409] So I went to the first class, loved it, and then just started training every day at Gary's Gym Brunswick.

[410] And then during the summer when I'd get off from school, they would take me up to New York to train under John.

[411] And you know, I just absolutely loved that I knew what I wanted to do with my life at a young age.

[412] So I ended up dropping out of school, actually, after my freshman year in high school.

[413] So, yeah, 15, I ended up dropping out and just pursuing Jiu -Jitsu full -time, you know, training every day up in the blue basement.

[414] Like, what aspects of J -Jitsu was made you know that this is the thing for you?

[415] It was just something I just enjoyed being, you know, like on the mats every day.

[416] I love that there's, you know, a problem -solving aspect to it.

[417] So it's, you know, it's mentally challenging.

[418] It's physically challenging.

[419] Helps me get in shape.

[420] So I just, yeah, right off the bat, I knew I loved it.

[421] Okay, so then we'll go to the jungle.

[422] What happened in the jungle?

[423] Yeah.

[424] And in general, like, I like this.

[425] I like this, like, this, like, this, like, shroud of mystery that she'll never be penetrated.

[426] That should never be like...

[427] We've got a book deal.

[428] It's coming once.

[429] A book deal?

[430] Obviously, he left Oscar.

[431] He's not riding him.

[432] Okay.

[433] I'll do the Russian translation.

[434] Okay.

[435] So what are things that you enjoy that you remember from working with John Donner?

[436] Yeah, I mean, you know, obviously he's considered one of the best coaches in the world.

[437] You know, very charismatic guy when you see him in person.

[438] You know, I pretty much was, you know, kind of raised in the DDS.

[439] You know, that's where I spent the majority of my time every day.

[440] So I obviously had very deep connections, you know, with John, my brother, Gary.

[441] you know, even Eddie Cummings and stuff back then.

[442] So obviously I miss interacting with those guys every day.

[443] And, you know, it's like they said, it's good to have somebody to kind of crack the whip at you every day.

[444] And John, John was very good at that.

[445] When you're, like, younger in your teenage years, you can kind of, you like have to get humbled, right?

[446] There's like a process to that.

[447] Yeah, for sure.

[448] And it's a pretty good room to get humbled in, I guess.

[449] Yeah, exactly.

[450] I mean, I was, I started training with them just when, like, everybody started to break out.

[451] Gary was like the biggest name at the time, just because he had won ADCC trials already, and he had a crazy match with Cron at Cron Gracie at ADCC.

[452] But Eddie was just starting to break out.

[453] Gordon just started winning EBI.

[454] So I started training under John, you know, right when everything was exploding.

[455] What are the good things about life about Jiu -Jitsu you learn from your brother?

[456] Both me and my brother never really wanted to, you know, work a full -time job doing something that we hate.

[457] and he was always, you know, a very confident person.

[458] So he just went, you know, fully started pursuing jiu -jitsu.

[459] So I'm very happy that, you know, he did that.

[460] And I ended up following in his footsteps because you can ask these guys, I'm a lazy sack of shit outside of the mat.

[461] So that's definitely one thing that I'm very grateful for.

[462] That he paved the way, like, you can make money doing stuff you love.

[463] Yeah, exactly.

[464] And he was a big reason, you know, why my parents eventually let me. drop out of school because, you know, when they were coming up, there was, there's no money in the sport.

[465] It was very hard to make a full living.

[466] Like, if you wanted to actually make a living, you'd eventually have to transfer to MMA.

[467] And I feel like Gordon and Gary and those guys were, you know, some of the first people to make a very good living off of just jih TZu.

[468] At this party, you find it heartbreaking that you've split up from DDS, but also from your brother in terms of spending time in the mat every day.

[469] Yeah, for sure.

[470] You know, I mean, growing, up, you know, obviously he's my big brother.

[471] I looked up to him a lot.

[472] So I definitely, like I said, I miss interacting with those guys.

[473] I was pretty much raised, you know, in that blue basement, you know, John was like, you know, a father figure to me. So I definitely, you know, miss seeing those guys every day.

[474] Do you have animosity towards Gordon?

[475] And does he have animosity toward you?

[476] And what is the source of that?

[477] And do you think you'll ever be able to forgive each other?

[478] definitely initially during the uh the initial split we definitely hated each other at the beginning um but it's definitely started to uh to calm down actually just prior to you know all this social media drama that's going on currently he had reached out to me and that was literally like the first time that we have actually talked since uh since the split happened so we didn't talk to was it now like almost two years um and that was the first time that you know we interacted again and um overall you know he wasn't you know aggressive towards me i wasn't aggressive towards him you were cracking some jokes so hopefully the the animosity is going down there's this godfather quote that wrote down i recently rewatched it uh from uh from the don from don carlione Vita Corleone, the strength of a family, like the strength of an army, lies in its loyalty to each other.

[479] Is there some aspect of family that you miss?

[480] Of the blood that kind of connects you that you can count on.

[481] Yeah, my parents, you know, they both raised us that, you know, like family is everything.

[482] You never, you know, betray your family or anything like that.

[483] So I definitely, you know, missing from time to time.

[484] Okay.

[485] Imagine you're like 40 years from now sitting on a porch with a shotgun, drinking whiskey, looking over like all the land you've conquered uh looking back to this moment is the reason you split up a bullshit reason or is it a good reason from the perspective of the king who has now conquered the lands have proven themselves have done everything i think it was definitely like a justifiable reason for the team splitting like it just with the way things were going it just was not going to work with you know all of us in the same room together it started you know affecting training, people didn't feel comfortable and things.

[486] So I definitely think that it was a justifiable reason to split.

[487] The things that happened in the jungle to be told about in the book.

[488] Is it going to be an audiobook or is it just going to be and who's going to voice it?

[489] Might be a play.

[490] A musical?

[491] On Broadway.

[492] How's your singing voice?

[493] Mine's not so good, but Nikki has a beautiful voice.

[494] Does he?

[495] Of an angel?

[496] Nike, I bet.

[497] Okay.

[498] Speaking of the social media drama, I should mention that I've talked to recently to Gordon a bunch.

[499] I've talked to him about talking to you guys.

[500] And he's had nothing but really nice things to say about you, Nick Ryan.

[501] And he has had nothing but bad things.

[502] What was some of the things?

[503] Well, let's just go to the social media first.

[504] Because the social media is, stuff that he said publicly is just like a warm -up.

[505] It's like a foreplay, I guess.

[506] So Gordon sent you, Nick Yorod, flowers for Valentine's Day, posting on Instagram, quote, I've been fucking him in every round in competition since we met in 2018.

[507] The least that can do is buy him flowers.

[508] We didn't get the flowers.

[509] No. Yeah, that was the question.

[510] Did you get some flowers?

[511] You never got the flowers.

[512] He sent it to the wrong address.

[513] he did yeah where do you think he sent it it was close but it was wrong did you appreciate the romantic gesture I did I was looking forward to the flowers and potentially chocolates in there but you know it was a bit of a letdown can you describe your recent match against Gordon the EBI match okay so EBI match on UFC fight battles it was a 20 minute match and immediately you know match starts I pull guard and then I stand up he pulls guard and we have this kind of like back and forth where he's trying to dig for underhooks trying to get on top of me and he can't really find success and out and then in the midst of me trying to work my body lock pass Gordon is able to underhook a leg and we end up in a leg entanglement and then I'm able I'm able to transfer that leg entanglement to a 50 -50 position still like is still in the leg entanglement from that 50 -50 position I'm able to separate his feet and and actually get a few pops and he actually said I broke his foot in that exchange With a toe hold.

[514] The toe hold, yep.

[515] And, you know, after that, we had a bit more.

[516] I was just being working on top position, trying to get my body lock.

[517] Time runs out and we go to overtime.

[518] And overtime.

[519] Can you hold on a second?

[520] What does it mean to break a leg?

[521] I was very confused about.

[522] Okay.

[523] So is this like expression or what do you mean?

[524] What are you broke?

[525] Which part breaks in a toe hold?

[526] Okay.

[527] So on a toe hold, there's a few different grades of it.

[528] Like you could get a few pops and have some.

[529] have some, you know, walking issues.

[530] And people consider that a break.

[531] And then you could break it fully and have your foot be like a limp noodle, you know.

[532] I think what goes to Achilles?

[533] Well, it's the front of the Achilles or something.

[534] I mean, probably the ligaments.

[535] I mean, it's funny, like, a lot of people say they broke something.

[536] But like, to me, you break bones, you tear ligaments.

[537] So I would imagine you probably had a grade three tear.

[538] Great three.

[539] How hard do you think is it?

[540] I was wondered that with like a straight foot lock, how hard is it to break the shin or like the actual bones?

[541] to tear stuff.

[542] Depends how many steroids they're on.

[543] And obviously, how much you're on.

[544] You're one of the few guys that have actually broken bones in competition.

[545] Yeah, have I?

[546] Oh, yeah.

[547] A couple, yeah.

[548] Which bone did you break?

[549] Spiral fracture of the fibula.

[550] Hmm.

[551] A lot of power.

[552] It's like a twisting.

[553] How did you break it?

[554] Oh, it was a heel hook.

[555] Vinny always used to say heel hooks don't work.

[556] Leg locks don't work.

[557] But unfortunately, age gets the best of all of us.

[558] I think he had some mileage on those ligaments.

[559] Yeah.

[560] And the bone, I guess, yeah.

[561] So it's actually what, the bone?

[562] Yeah, his ankle, like, disconnected from the tibia and the fibula, but the fibula definitely snouts pretty bad there.

[563] That's fascinating.

[564] The dynamics of that.

[565] Okay, anyway, it went to overtime.

[566] What happened in overtime?

[567] Okay, what happened in overtime?

[568] Let's see.

[569] Trying to hang.

[570] Oh, okay, I go defense first.

[571] Whistle blows.

[572] I'm able to escape in, like, 17 seconds.

[573] And then immediately after I go on his back and he gets out in exactly a 17 seconds.

[574] I'm like, shit, all right.

[575] I thought I had a good start.

[576] And then he gets on my back right after that.

[577] And he's able to ride me out for pretty much the entire round.

[578] After that, I go back on his back.

[579] He escapes him maybe like a minute and some change.

[580] I think where I went wrong in the overtime is I should have been less adamant about chasing the submission and more aware of collecting time.

[581] If I kind of diverted my attention towards acquiring, you know, time on the clock, it would have been, you know, more of my favor.

[582] But yeah, at the end of my overtime round, I'm able to lock up a reneged choke over the face, but there just wasn't enough time to fully finish.

[583] You know, I got a few seconds of squeeze in there.

[584] I didn't have enough time to adjust.

[585] And go ahead.

[586] Do you think if you're on stairs, you would have finished the choke?

[587] I mean, for sure, for sure.

[588] That's what I thought.

[589] If you're on gear, you're changing the biology of your body.

[590] You're adjusting your DNA.

[591] For sure, if I adjust in my DNA, I mean, it's a finish.

[592] So you're implying your natural athlete is what you do.

[593] Oh, I'm definitely a natural athlete, yeah.

[594] Heavy implication.

[595] Okay.

[596] So for people who don't know, the EBI rules, it's an interesting rule structure where the overtime you put yourself in the worst possible position and the task is to escape, and then the other person gets the same thing.

[597] What do you guys think about that rule set?

[598] I like it just because, first of all, I don't like the idea of having to put somebody on my back, but I do like the definitive answer in the match.

[599] Like either you escaped in time or you got, you know, written out.

[600] So the absolutely, like, you get to define a winner.

[601] That's great.

[602] I'd much rather have that than a close decision and it kind of goes the other way.

[603] What about you?

[604] I mean, honestly, there's all the different rules.

[605] When I look at the rule sets, I just try to think of what rule set I could beat that individual in and I sort of gear myself towards that.

[606] That's really the strategy there.

[607] I think there's some guys that like that stall a lot that you would love to have EBI overtime but at the end, you know, they're stalling until they have to give us a good position.

[608] But then there's some guys that are so good in those positions, I'm like, oh, maybe we just do a regular match, you know?

[609] What are the rules in the streets?

[610] The streets?

[611] No time limit.

[612] Yeah.

[613] That's one of them.

[614] it.

[615] There's also like concrete and cars and stuff.

[616] Biting.

[617] Biting, yeah, poking.

[618] Yeah, so you don't like that rule set?

[619] Are there some people you would prefer in the street as a rule set?

[620] Me?

[621] Probably not.

[622] I don't know, the EBI.

[623] I mean, it's tricky, you know, it depends on the opponent, which rule set I'd want to do.

[624] What about you, Nick, right?

[625] What do you think about the rule set of EBI?

[626] Yeah, so I think EBI is very good from a spectator point of view.

[627] You know, people find it very entertaining to watch, you know, because people want to see submissions.

[628] And you're putting people, you're putting the athletes in a position where, you know, you have, like, the highest percentage submission in the sport.

[629] So obviously, you're going to get a lot of submissions.

[630] My issue with it is it is a rule set that allows somebody that's overall worse at Jiu -Jitsu to win a match.

[631] You know, a guy can go out there and just stall and just get completely dominated for the entirety of regulation.

[632] And then he gets to start on the guy's back.

[633] That's my one issue with it.

[634] But also, I mean, it's interesting to see, like, the best people in the world have to be put in a really bad position.

[635] And to see how good their escapes are, for example.

[636] It's interesting.

[637] But it doesn't feel like realistic.

[638] It's a fun thing to watch, but it doesn't feel like the real fight.

[639] Yeah.

[640] It feels weird.

[641] I'll claim it.

[642] If I start an overtime on someone and finish them, I'll claim it.

[643] But if they submit me an overtime, I'm like, awesome.

[644] You're going to know.

[645] It's good.

[646] The issue is people are, like, stalling to just win the overtime.

[647] So where you got this guy, his whole training camp is just not get subbed and win the overtime.

[648] It's a bit boring.

[649] By the way, I have a rose behind you.

[650] Somebody gave me a Valentine's flower.

[651] So if you missed the one from Gordon, I got one for you.

[652] Well, I'd appreciate that.

[653] It's good to feel loved.

[654] Yeah.

[655] All right.

[656] So what did you live?

[657] learn from that match like a takeaway is technically speaking like what uh what what do you need to work on well i learned that uh i am pretty good yeah pretty good uh i got a you know a few i know exactly what my weakness is you know it's the the leg locked apartment and i'm doing i'm doing a lot um to to to you know get better in that specific aspect i think in defense attack i would say yeah attack defense reattacks um even if i wanted to offensively enter a leg you know i could use some work there as well.

[658] But I feel like once I solidify, like my, like if I come in, I'll become a black belt specifically in the leg lock department, I feel like I'd be unstoppable.

[659] If you, Nick your Rod, definitively beat Gordon Ryan, how would you do it?

[660] Buggychook.

[661] Bucky choke.

[662] For the listener, I don't even know how to describe buggychook.

[663] What's the definitive, like, conclusion on that choke does it work it's a it's a choke that you do when you're in a uh what's the opposite of a dominant it's not submissive in a non -dominant position of bottom of side control yeah just embarrassing submission to get caught with really yeah but does it work it works on certain people for the listener he glanced over a niki man it's embarrassing but it's also what it's a way to frustrate the opponent for sure yeah it's a new part of the spot i feel like the rittolo's brought it back into fashion.

[664] And even if you don't get it, because it's one of those movies that's so embarrassing, at the first sign of danger, the top guy abandoned ship.

[665] And you can basically retain guard by attempting a very embarrassing submission.

[666] So the threat of embarrassment.

[667] Yeah.

[668] People pull out very quick to avoid suffering the consequences.

[669] I think some people underestimate how good of a submission is.

[670] I mean, like, once you're locked in there, there's not too many defenses for a buggy joke.

[671] Are you, is there an instructional on the way from you?

[672] J. Rod, actually, the little brother has one.

[673] Oh, yeah, for real.

[674] You actually legit have, oh, wow.

[675] That's awesome.

[676] We'll check it out.

[677] I mean, there is, I mean, you're making a joke out of it, but it is a real, like, there's a system to it.

[678] I mean, yeah, I don't know if we call it a system.

[679] It's a good, man. I mean, you take an opponent that was just winning in a greatly dominant position and then boom, in that same position, they're pretty much, they're losing.

[680] You know, it's an interesting move.

[681] What's the name of the, what's the name of it?

[682] It's called the buggypedia like J. Rodriguez.

[683] Okay, the buggypedia.

[684] I thought there would be something like very Craig Jonesy about it.

[685] Okay, awesome.

[686] I know you don't want to sort of reveal the secrets of what you're working on, but in general, do you, what does it take to beat Gordon, I guess?

[687] Okay, so it would have to be some kind of a choke.

[688] I think any joint lock or anything like that, he's just going to let it break and stay in the match.

[689] So I don't even think he'd tap from like a rain -neged choke.

[690] I think I would have to put him to sleep.

[691] So putting him to sleep, I would win.

[692] So Gordon is somebody who really hates losing.

[693] Yeah, like he won't even tap in the practice room.

[694] I remember, like, I had a toll hold a couple times in practice room, and he was just comfortable, like, working there.

[695] I'm like, I'm not really putting much on it.

[696] I think he just, you know, maybe because of situations like that in practice, he kind of didn't respect my toeholds ability in competition.

[697] You've done that to me in the practice.

[698] I have, yeah.

[699] Yeah, I'll give me a little pop and then he let go.

[700] That was only 10 % right there.

[701] Hey, don't get it to math.

[702] Okay, is there some part of that you think is necessary to be a champion is to like this almost unwillingness in competition to tap?

[703] I think there's definitely something to be said for people that are just like, like, you know, willing to go that extra miles or to take that damage to secure their, their victory.

[704] Is there part of you that, like, would hate to tap or hates the tap?

[705] Yeah, I mean, all of me, say it would hate that.

[706] Yeah, the whole part of me. Isn't there a John Legend song like that, all of you and all of me?

[707] Very romantic, yeah.

[708] Yeah, we're sticking on that theme.

[709] Okay, I'm sorry.

[710] Oh, one of the things Gordon asked, I forget how you put it, because I think there's a lot of words that would need to be censored involved.

[711] But he said, ask them how it feels to have a 0 -5 record against me with four submissions combined.

[712] I mean, first of all, I wasn't sure he could count the 5.

[713] That's an impressive thing.

[714] Oh, and 5.

[715] I mean, I will say one thing.

[716] Nobody beats me four times.

[717] I love you so much.

[718] Lex, I did have a question.

[719] I did have a question for you.

[720] there was some controversy on your Twitter about a list of books and I was wondering why Gordon's book wasn't featured amongst that literature well it was only the first 30 books or like the first 20 books and it would of course be in something interesting about Gordon he's the first author that's written more books than he's read pretty good if you if you face him and beat him like what's your take on what it takes to be Gordon I mean you guys kind of joke and they go pretty hard recently on each other but as a fan of Jiu Jetsu I'm all in on this rivalry it's just fun to watch I mean first of all I don't think I go really hard with him I think Gordon is he's pretty sensitive you know what I mean he's looking for a large insult in a small and so and for me like Australians we just attack each other all day, every day.

[721] And for me, like, if I see someone that takes himself very seriously, that's like blood in the water.

[722] That's funny to me. To me, if I can just gently provoke and get a strong reaction, that's hilarious.

[723] Like, Ozzy's, we will just attack each other, and the first person that gets upset, he kind of loses the exchange.

[724] So I think that is very, very entertaining.

[725] Like, if you were to beat Gordon, would the mental game off the map be part of it?

[726] I think it would be a fact of a sure, but I mean, I'm never going to come out too crazy direct with him.

[727] You know, like, I don't, I find that, like, if you get too upset online and you're going crazy, I find that I'd be embarrassed to do that myself.

[728] Obviously, everyone's different.

[729] Everyone has a different style, you know?

[730] But, like, yeah, I think mental, the mental aspect would play a big factor.

[731] I mean, mainly, because if I were to beat him, I would send him a message every day until I died.

[732] just to gently remind him that I got the last one the last one it's all that matters we're not giving we're not giving it so like once you beat him you're going to run for the rest of your life I mean run but look back yeah with messages ride ride your horse into the sunset okay by the way you've talked very lightly I've talked shit very lightly against Alexander Volcanel Mavsky's opponent, very lightly.

[733] Have you received death threats or how are you still alive?

[734] Like Gordon, I would say people from Dagestan take a joke very well.

[735] Do they really?

[736] Do they really?

[737] No. Oh, like Gordon.

[738] Sorry, I'm slow.

[739] I'm too aggressive mode of my head.

[740] Now, honestly, I'm listening to you.

[741] Islam was pretty cool.

[742] I wanted to stir it up a bit, you know?

[743] Because, like, I felt like that was a massive fight and it probably should have had more attention than it was receiving.

[744] So I wanted to just gently stir it up a bit.

[745] I feel like Sambo guys are in the same vein as catch wrestlers, very sensitive.

[746] You know, like, obviously there's only three people in the world that did catch wrestling, Sambo, maybe 10 to 15.

[747] So I figured we could really provoke them with that sort of Jiu -Jitsu Sambo stuff.

[748] Islam took the jokes very well.

[749] The Russian fans, not so much are very serious.

[750] There's not many smiles in Russia, you know.

[751] They didn't take it as well.

[752] I'm trying to suppress the anger.

[753] The rage is building off the bag.

[754] Slowly.

[755] So you guys mentioned steroids.

[756] I like that you bring that up after we talk about Russia, for the record.

[757] Smooth.

[758] Smooth segue, though.

[759] I did not condone the statements said by the Aussie.

[760] But I would love to travel with you to Russia.

[761] That would be a good time.

[762] You might get killed with me now.

[763] No, I would be like the first to turn to backstab you.

[764] You're like I got in there.

[765] Get it.

[766] All right.

[767] Are most of the top grapplers on steroids?

[768] I mean, it's hard to say.

[769] You know, some people look like shit and they're on steroids.

[770] Some people look excellent, and they're not on steroids.

[771] It's so, so hard to tell.

[772] That seems to be the general consensus that a lot of people are on steroids.

[773] I'm always a little bit, I don't know, so be honest, I've never seen anyone take steroids.

[774] I've never taken steroids.

[775] I don't even know that's the right term to use or like TRT, any of that.

[776] I'm very careful to not let my naive vitae lead me to take conclusions.

[777] But I do feel a little bit weird about the witch hunt nature of it, that some people a little bit too eagerly claim that others aren't on steroids just because they're successful.

[778] But at the same time, it does seem that a lot of athletes will do whatever it takes to be successful.

[779] Yeah, I mean, if it's what doesn't test, you've got to assume most people are going to do it.

[780] And especially now, as more money comes into the sport, you've got to assume more people are going to do it, you know?

[781] I generally, like, do ADCC and, like, does jihadist do test?

[782] It's actually encouraged.

[783] Well, it's encouraged.

[784] Oh, okay.

[785] You get a pamphlet?

[786] Okay.

[787] They don't test.

[788] There's no test.

[789] They test to make sure we're on steroids because obviously it's a big show for the UFC fire pass in the future.

[790] I don't want anyone coming in out of shape.

[791] Very nice.

[792] Do you think using steroids in that kind of context in sports is wrong?

[793] Like, stepping stepping away, if it's not illegal.

[794] I mean, from my perspective, I like to assume everyone's on steroids and I have to feel bad about using steroids myself.

[795] Do you use all of the steroids?

[796] I'm over 30s, T .R .D. You know, that's the medical definition.

[797] That's the medical, okay.

[798] I'd like to meet your doctor.

[799] Therapeutic use, you know?

[800] Therapeutic, right.

[801] Like, how do you just feel about it?

[802] I mean, it is cheating for sure.

[803] Whether they test for it or no, I think it is cheating.

[804] Obviously, some people are going to say, oh, fuck, everyone's on it.

[805] I should be able to get away with it.

[806] It makes it even playing field.

[807] You know, but it kind of becomes Russian roulette, because it's like if one guy is taking a small amount, and the other guy is taking a huge amount, he's going to reap huge rewards in the short term, probably be dead pretty early, but die a champion, mind you.

[808] You know what I mean?

[809] So it's like, I don't know what that one is, yeah.

[810] Yeah, what do you think about that?

[811] Do you think it's worthy to take health risks just for the glory?

[812] I think if you're 40 about to die looking at a cabinet of gold medals for wrestling other men, it's probably not going to hit the same way on your death badge, you know?

[813] Sorry, in which direction?

[814] Like, is that a good thing or not?

[815] No, you're probably going to feel like, oh, fuck, I probably wasted a bit of health on that, you know?

[816] You think so?

[817] Isn't that, like, the glory of it?

[818] Like, you said other men, yeah.

[819] Yeah, yeah.

[820] Well, I mean, in my opinion, I'll maybe wrestle a woman as well.

[821] What'd you do with Gabby on Valentine's Day?

[822] What did you take her?

[823] We filmed some new stuff for OnlyFans.

[824] For Only fans.

[825] We never stop working.

[826] So the love affair is also a work affair.

[827] I don't know.

[828] There's something, too, that made like an Olympic gold medalist, accomplishing the heights, sacrificing everything, just everything, the first 20, 30 years of your life for this silly little piece of metal.

[829] I think there's something beautiful to this.

[830] that.

[831] That's like conspires a lot, a lot of people.

[832] And that's like the height of the human condition in a way.

[833] Like if you survive.

[834] I'm just saying if you're in your deathbed, early in life, we all die.

[835] All men die, but not all men truly live.

[836] How many?

[837] How many years are you willing to shave off for a gold medal?

[838] That's a good question.

[839] How many?

[840] How many are you willing to shave off for a gold medal?

[841] Well, you're for a silver medal.

[842] For silver?

[843] I mean, for a silver metal, I'd shave a few off.

[844] I think two silverers makes a gold.

[845] It's worth five years?

[846] Five to ten, maybe, yeah.

[847] Shave off the bad years, enhance the good ones, you know?

[848] Well, I mean, you've sacrificed.

[849] You've guys sacrificed a lot, a lot of your life.

[850] You continue to sacrifice.

[851] Oh, you don't see it a sacrifice.

[852] It's fun.

[853] I think training's fun being adamant about it, consistent.

[854] Gives you, I mean, we, I think we have a great routine, great ritual.

[855] Definitely enjoy the process.

[856] All right, well, do you?

[857] You guys know, this is bro science, or I'm talking to bro scientists, but do you know how long steroids stay in your system?

[858] Forever.

[859] Forever?

[860] Oh, because it's like, hey, once you do it, you own it.

[861] Yeah.

[862] Just the knowledge.

[863] Yeah.

[864] All right.

[865] I think it's different for each steroid, right?

[866] I think some of them lost longer than others.

[867] Depends if it's a urine.

[868] You would think I would do a little research before this, asking these questions.

[869] Why do you think most athletes and coaches don't talk about steroids?

[870] like why is it such a like a secret why is it so embarrassing i think they probably talk about it like amongst the team and whatnot again i mean it's only it's going to be more shady if it's like your your sport is tested or not or kind of in the wild west in the in the grappling world you know yeah but why don't grapplers talk about it because the team is cheating i mean it's it's kind of insinuated as a a bit of cheating even if it's not like uh if it's not tested i mean And still, you're taking a person that can, you know, maybe has good jiu -jitsu, good mechanics, you're putting them on the leg and they're something with a heel -hook versus breaking your leg with a heel -hook.

[871] You know, something as subtle as that can make, you know, big differences.

[872] All right, this is going to make me sound dumb.

[873] But is it possible that steroids are not a huge help in grappling?

[874] I think if you're bad at Jiu -Jitsu and you do steroids, you're going to continue to be bad at J -Jitsu.

[875] But if you're great at gear, I'm sorry, if you're great at grappling.

[876] If you're great at grappling, and then you also do gear, it's going to enhance what you're already, you know, good at and make you much better.

[877] But, like, how much is the enhancement, I guess is the question?

[878] How much is, is muscle valued?

[879] Like, if you're, if you're doing gear and you're not changing weight that much, like, maybe it helps you a little bit, but if, you know, you're gaining 50, 60 pounds of pure muscle and it's like, that's a huge enhancement, that's another human.

[880] Does muscle, a small human, yeah.

[881] Does muscle matter in Jiu -Jitsu?

[882] I guess this is the question.

[883] Is it possible that it gets in the way?

[884] I'd say muscle matters, but technique matters more.

[885] I also think that it'll help you develop technique as well, because obviously, you know, testosterone helps with recovery rate.

[886] So if you're on gear, you're able to train a lot more.

[887] Now, with that being said, if you're not able to learn, obviously it's not going to help in that aspect.

[888] But if you're somebody that knows how to learn and get good at Jiu -Jitsu, and then you add gear on top of that, you're able to do significantly more sessions throughout the week.

[889] Okay.

[890] By the way, gears, steroids?

[891] Steroids, yeah.

[892] Okay.

[893] I also think that you don't have to be as consistent in, like, your sleep and your food and stuff.

[894] If your own gear, you have a little bit of leeway.

[895] But, I mean, being consistent in your diet and your sleep definitely would help, you know, the process.

[896] Since you use most steroids of any athlete I've ever met, do you think steroids help jitza?

[897] I think, obviously, it helps recovery and your ability to train more, but I think some, I've seen, some guys go on steroids and then suddenly they feel like the incredible Hulk and now in the training room they start to rely more on strength than the techniques they had and actually in some respect hinders them and makes some gas more in competition because then they're using more of the muscle they never used to have so you've implied that you're a natural athlete you said that you said a skeptic like is this is this a something you do for social media to talk shit to Gordon to imply that he's not a natural athlete?

[898] Well, I only pretty much recently on social media, I had this rebuttal, you know, saying that, you know, Gordon's on gear.

[899] And I only said that because after our match in the, our most recent match, you know, the EBI rules match, he accused me of greasing, which is like lubing up, so I'm slippery during our match.

[900] And you did not.

[901] I did not.

[902] I was checked multiple times before and after our grappling event and he still went out and accused me of this so i was like all right as opposed to telling a lie i'll just tell the truth about you know your your steroid use which it shouldn't be that big of a deal in retrospect because he kind of admitted it and whatnot previously um so it's uh yeah i just kind of felt like i had to rebuttal and i i didn't do it immediately because i was like all right i know i have this podcast plan so i'll wait to do it on you know my friend mark bell's podcast you know be a little more more get a little bit more exposure on it.

[903] And yeah, I knew he was going to bite the bait, but I didn't think he was going to, you know, bite the baby that hard.

[904] I know he's a little stressed out about, about the comment, but, you know.

[905] And that was the origin of you guys going back and forth on.

[906] Well, it wasn't so much back and forth.

[907] It was just I went forth and then he kept going back, back, back.

[908] Like, I remember one of my guys, DM me and they were like, Gordon's made like 68 Instagram stories and 67 of them were all about you.

[909] I was like, all right, well, I'm in his head for sure.

[910] Got us a few followers.

[911] We appreciate that.

[912] We did get followers.

[913] Even shouted out our B -Team wipeout program.

[914] So thank you.

[915] Speaking of which, what's the B team?

[916] How's it run?

[917] And why is it called the B team?

[918] Well, I mean, Craig.

[919] Was the A team taken?

[920] For me, B's for best.

[921] Okay.

[922] Best.

[923] All right.

[924] What does B stand for you?

[925] What does it represent?

[926] What is the ideal, like, you know, Miyamoto -Masashi philosophical foundation of B -Team?

[927] Aim low and achieve.

[928] If the bar is set low, you can't help, but win.

[929] That's Nicky's philosophy with women as well.

[930] Set the bar incredibly low overachieve.

[931] So what is the B -Team?

[932] How do you guys run it?

[933] Like, what, yeah, I mean, can you just talk about the school, how you found it?

[934] What is it like?

[935] I mean, pretty much just a regular judicious gym.

[936] We started as sort of a pros -only Purple Bowen Above team, and we have me, Nikki Rod, Nicky Ryan, Ethan, Damien as coaches.

[937] Am I missing someone?

[938] Your memory is with your old age.

[939] Impegable memory, yeah.

[940] And we got JB coming on to teach wipeouts, but just your stock standard judicious team.

[941] We focus on more, we lean heavily towards the professional athlete side of things.

[942] We have a lot of high -level guys in that.

[943] Class structure, regular instruction, positional sparring, open rounds.

[944] But we sort of took a heavy slant on marketing side of things.

[945] We really try to blow up the YouTube channel.

[946] Obviously, we sell a lot of clothing, merchandise and stuff.

[947] So, yeah, we just sort of took a modern approach to a standard jih Tjitsu gym.

[948] Because, I mean, jih Tjitsu gyms are full of some of the most boring human beings on earth.

[949] So we try to highlight.

[950] Strong words, Guy, John.

[951] Strong word.

[952] Highlight the other side of things.

[953] You know, keep it pretty light -hearted.

[954] That it can be fun.

[955] Yeah, that judici can be fun.

[956] I guess that it can be cool, too.

[957] You know, it's not just full of steroid -up autistic people, you know?

[958] Question from Reddit.

[959] Quote, need to hear some of the stories about drop -ins that led to the making of the jam of a video, the do's and don'ts of training a beat team.

[960] Any fun stories?

[961] Any ones that stand out.

[962] Do you guys remember any?

[963] Police involved ever?

[964] We had a guy coming out to kick him out.

[965] He was stalking two of the members.

[966] Yeah, well, I mean, there's just crazy people, you know, like, I portray a pretty insane image online, and I guess I am that a lot of the time, but at training, try to keep it while training, around training, I'm insulting everyone, but while training, I try to keep it pretty serious.

[967] But obviously, the image I portray, Lou is in some of the crazier members.

[968] I mean, like, the thing is about the Jimmy guys run is really professional.

[969] It's, like, friendly.

[970] It's like, the lighthearted joking is there, obviously.

[971] you know like shit talk and all that kind of stuff but like it's it's a pretty safe environment yeah but the public persona might attract some some maniacs yeah i won't say which places i've trained it but it's obviously some places you walk into the room and it's very very serious yeah there's no smiles around obviously it's probably average training room in russia but no smiles very serious environment you know what i mean and uh i definitely don't like that i don't want to show up to training and be walking on eggshells not know what the coach's moods like that day I want to go in, have a good time, keep it lighthearted.

[972] What was in the video?

[973] What are the do's and don'ts?

[974] Because, like, the address is public.

[975] Like, anyone can show up.

[976] Anyone can show up, yeah.

[977] What would the do's and don't?

[978] Does anyone challenge you, like, to a fight?

[979] Not yet.

[980] I mean, probably from other gyms in town, they're probably, that's probably coming down the line.

[981] But do's and don'ts.

[982] I'm all in on that.

[983] I would be excited as a fan to just watch.

[984] I love the drama.

[985] Not the drama.

[986] No, no, no. Well, a little drama, a little drop of poison is good, but ultimately it's the best grapplers in the world kind of going at it, yeah, it's fun.

[987] Because maybe I'm wrong, but I think there is an underlying deep camaraderie at the end of the day when you're like at the top of the world.

[988] And you're like in the same town.

[989] What could possibly go wrong?

[990] It's like a shitty Western, but like an epic Western.

[991] Well, like Clint East with like the good, the bad and ugly.

[992] of course i love it i'm i'm here just eating popcorn like that staring the pot i'm not staring the pot i'm not staring the pot these questions are from reddit that that one for sure yeah i mean what could we go wrong if you're the world's best grappler hates you and you're gently provoking and behind the scenes every day well i mean for sure in texas and you've stolen his brother held it for ransom it is like a story of a shitty western i think you know a lot of white belts to train with you what's it like to open it up to a bigger audience uh we haven't opened it up yet but it'll be interesting to see i mean i feel like your higher belts they really understand what the training room is you know what i mean white belts early they're trying to find their place in the gym could be kind of awkward and stuff in that environment so i think obviously those white belts coming in will change the dynamic but the white belts will have a separate white belt classes obviously for them because given it such a high -level gym, it'd be tough a beginner to be able to enter the more advanced classes.

[993] Obviously, we're teaching more advanced techniques.

[994] So, yeah, we've separated a wirebell program, I believe, 6 p .m. One day or Friday, yeah, maybe we'll have a Saturday one as well.

[995] But it'll be interested to see how it goes.

[996] We're trying to do things different, you know, like trying to do your traditional judicious gyms, obviously you're not going to teach beginners wrestling at all.

[997] We're trying to split at least 33 percent, top game, bottom game, and wrestling.

[998] So at least create more well -rounded athletes from day one, whereas I feel like most traditional jihitsu gyms might have no -ge once a week that would touch wrestling, very IBJGF heavy techniques, but again, the sport's changing for sure.

[999] Just to take that on, how does it begin to get good at jihitsu, like given you're starting this web, but what's your philosophy on that?

[1000] Obviously, buy all of my instructional at full price, not during a sale.

[1001] Okay.

[1002] That would go a long way.

[1003] For those of you who are Russians, I'll send you instructions or all the forms.

[1004] you know how to how to steal it yeah just i'll share i bought them all so i'll just send it to you for i mean we do i mean we do have the macachov 50 discount code you know yeah offering discounts to help him out for the rematch i got the nice uh well i got a 100 % discount for you if you need it but that's like your instructional are both hilarious and brilliant and it's one of the most respected instructional's oh thank you with incredibly great names yeah it probably loses me sales, honestly, due to removing the seriousness of the topics we cover.

[1005] Because they think it's going to kind of suck.

[1006] It's going to be some funny gimmicky thing.

[1007] Or, I mean, some people don't even know if it's a real product.

[1008] That's a big hurdle I have to overcome as they see it.

[1009] And they're like, is that a real thing?

[1010] That's a problem.

[1011] But how does the white belt get good?

[1012] I think they just, I mean, just have to show up, just have to put in the effort, try to focus on using techniques and training rather than just fighting to the death, you know?

[1013] Although that is entertaining for us to watch, two white belts fight to the death.

[1014] Yeah, but what are the techniques you should focus on?

[1015] Like, what's the process?

[1016] What does it mean to show up?

[1017] Like, how much drilling, all that kind of stuff.

[1018] Like, if you were to optimize the first six months of a beginner, there's a lot of people would listen to this and haven't tried, they've been curious.

[1019] I have a lot of friends who haven't, like, you're just too curious.

[1020] They're constantly looking for an excuse to start.

[1021] I think it's just got to be as simple as possible.

[1022] You know, like, we shouldn't be teaching more advanced movements.

[1023] I mean, obviously, in the grand scheme of things, there's highly advanced techniques, and then they're slightly advanced.

[1024] And I think trying to teach those guys real specific positions, even, like real specific types of guard is just beyond them.

[1025] I think the best way to learn is through problem solving.

[1026] And I think if you show the technique before they've discovered that problem, the learning is sort of held back.

[1027] So I like the idea of using kids -style games to show them, my problem and then use the techniques to fix the problems they've just discovered.

[1028] I think that's the best way to learn.

[1029] Can you give an example of a problem to show them before you give them the techniques?

[1030] Like, what are we talking about?

[1031] So say you wanted to teach posture in wrestling, you could create a game where one guy, the game might be get to a leg or get to two legs, control the leg, like super simple.

[1032] But the rules, the constraint would be one guy is forced to keep upright posture and one guy is forced, well, not forced, but he's allowed to keep a bent of the hips lower posture.

[1033] And obviously within that constraint, the guy with the better posture is going to have more success.

[1034] He's going to have a better posture to secure a leg or secure both legs.

[1035] And therefore, you've demonstrated the flaws of bad posture without having to explain it to him before they really tested that out.

[1036] Okay, and then the result of that, you would realize that the bent over posture is better.

[1037] Yeah, you have that aha moment rather than just being spot.

[1038] having it spoken to you.

[1039] You wrote, Craig, I'm a big fan of constraint -based learning, I guess, was just what you're talking about.

[1040] I love presenting beginners with a problem before the solution, like here, attempt to hold side control with no cues on how.

[1041] Then I see how the guy got out and addressed issue by issue, cross face and hip control and so on.

[1042] Okay.

[1043] So what are some other examples, like side control?

[1044] Yeah, that would be excellent one, side control.

[1045] Like, obviously we say, oh, you secure a cross face so they can't turn into you.

[1046] much easier to have them try to hold someone down without explaining what a cross face is and then use that technique to address the problem they've just encountered.

[1047] So I think you could do that with a lot of areas of jiu -jitsu, like even more advanced, say 50 -50, obviously a mirrored position where you both have access to each other's heels.

[1048] Most people will stall out in that position and keep their feet crossed.

[1049] I think a great constraint for both of them, you can't cross your feet.

[1050] Now you have to learn how to slip the heel hook when they expose it and how to safely re -attack of your own.

[1051] So the constraint is you can't be too defensive in that position.

[1052] And I think the rate of learning increases.

[1053] Why do you think the rate of learning increases?

[1054] Like, why do you think that works?

[1055] Because you encounter more problems.

[1056] Say in that situation, they're going to get you heal a lot more in whatever period of time you allocate the drill for than if the legs across.

[1057] I don't think the hard part splitting the legs to get to the submission.

[1058] I I think the hard part's practicing control why they're trying to slip it at a later stage and then obviously trying to slip your heel when you're in more danger.

[1059] It also makes you more comfortable in that bad position if you're used to doing it with open legs.

[1060] Yeah, I think that probably that style of teaching forces people to focus on, because it's so easy to fall into focusing on memorizing a particular details of a technique without thinking like, why the hell does this even work?

[1061] And if you don't have that, you get to focus on like, from like, as cliche, it sounds from first principles like why the hell how the hell do i get out of this like why does this even work why does wrestling work why do you have a bent over posture you get those like start to ask those kinds of questions which is kind of interesting because it's not obvious to me that bent over posture is the right posture for jihitsu right i'm confused actually about that i don't know about the correct posture yeah for jihistu like what's the right answer i think ben over posture is still good for jiu jitza even with the judo and all that like why are so many jihitsu people like at a high level the posture is higher up well i think the i think wrestling posture is just a bit too low because it's not necessary right if wrestlers are like low enough to the ground where your hands could touch the mat uh but in jiu jihitsu you know it's a it's kind of a mix between like wrestling and judo or or greco roman wrestling so um i think it's just a bit more more lax and it's bent over, but it's not upright, and it's also not super low.

[1062] A bit more room for error, too, because obviously the jihitsu guy shot isn't going to be as athletic or as quick as a wrestler, especially a wrestler with shoes.

[1063] So it actually comes down to the fact that jihitsu people just on average, even at the top level, are not good at shooting?

[1064] I think so, yeah.

[1065] I think, obviously, I mean, all the wrestlers in American stuff, they're starting super early, super young.

[1066] You know what I mean?

[1067] By the time they get to the same age, we are really in our sport and stuff.

[1068] They've spent much longer doing the actual sport and the average jiu -jitiga.

[1069] And then there's another level of wrestling, of course, with the Soviet bloc.

[1070] That's just unachievable for your kind.

[1071] Who knew an Australian rugby?

[1072] Yeah.

[1073] A former rugby player.

[1074] Rugby, is that kind of like American football, but much less money?

[1075] Is that what that is?

[1076] Much less money, much tougher, I would say.

[1077] But who knew that the cure of, to the Dagestanee wrestling were the Aussis.

[1078] With the Aussies?

[1079] Okay, let's go there.

[1080] Your friend, your training partner, Alexander Volcanowski, you helped him prepare for the Islam Makachev versus Volkanowski fight.

[1081] Who do you think, first of all, won that fight?

[1082] That's a tricky one.

[1083] How is that the tricky question?

[1084] I will say, when all the shit talk you've been doing, how is that the tricky question?

[1085] When I was in the corner, want to go on into the fifth, I personally believed live that Volkanowski probably needed a finish to take the victory.

[1086] But you have to think that way, right, in general?

[1087] Or you're like legitimately it's a great area because the judging, who knows?

[1088] Plus, I was like, wait, we're in Australia.

[1089] Where's this bias?

[1090] You know?

[1091] We've got some Australian judges here.

[1092] I was really hoping we get a bit of bias on that.

[1093] Unfortunately not.

[1094] Hopefully they lose their jobs.

[1095] But again, yeah, it was a close I think sometimes you're blinded in the moment because, again, everyone counted Volcanovsky out, the crowd's behind him, so everything he does is going to get a huge cheer, you're biased towards the smaller guy, you bias towards the underdog, so you sort of, whatever the underdog does has a bigger impact in your mind, and sometimes they can bias as the fight goes along.

[1096] But yeah, super, super close fire.

[1097] I would really love them to have a rematch, but obviously that's going to hold up both divisions, so I don't know if they'll be able to do it.

[1098] Do you think they'll do a rematch soon?

[1099] I mean, that was an epic fight.

[1100] I was listening to The Fight Companion during it.

[1101] They all thought, vocal.

[1102] And so they biased strongly the opinion.

[1103] Round two was the tricky one.

[1104] Round two is the tricky one.

[1105] Anyway, I'd love to see that, like, running back and do three, actually.

[1106] There's an epic fight.

[1107] What was the brief conversation you had with Islam Makachov and his team?

[1108] I didn't know how we'd take the joke, because obviously, Khabib tried to flying eagle kick Dylan Dennis in the face.

[1109] So I wasn't sure how my humor would go.

[1110] But, I mean, Dylan must have said some worse things to me. I was just playing around.

[1111] I mean, you can't really take anything I say serious.

[1112] Yeah.

[1113] Come across like an idiot.

[1114] But so when he was coming up to me afterwards, I was like, oh, I don't know what he's going to say.

[1115] And again, maybe he would have been more upset if he had lost, but he'd just receive the judge's decision.

[1116] Yeah.

[1117] But he came up.

[1118] I went to Shikikistan and gave me a big hug and then pretended to throw me. And then I thought the interaction was over and then he circled back.

[1119] So that's why I was so awkward.

[1120] I was like, oh, he's coming back.

[1121] He wants to say.

[1122] he wants something else but he just said why didn't you teach a boy out of escape the body triangle oh wow interesting what did you say to that i said well i mean obviously you've got to learn how to finish a re -naked choke is that what you said no i didn't say i was laughing i was laughing but then they i should have sat they were like get out of him for the ozied crowd attacks here you know what do you think about the body triangle position they were in it seemed like for the first time it seems It was almost like Volk was dominant in that position, which is kind of weird.

[1123] I mean, damage is meant to Trump control MMA judging.

[1124] Damage is the number one factor.

[1125] Do you think the judges saw that?

[1126] What did they score that as?

[1127] I think they all scored four towards Islam.

[1128] Three and five, two of the judges scored towards Volks.

[1129] One of the judges scored three for Islam.

[1130] It was 4946 for one of them, and the other ones were.

[1131] 48, 47.

[1132] I think the, again, the confusing round was round, too.

[1133] I don't think anyone scored the Body Triangle round for a Vox, which I wish they had.

[1134] Volcanovsky was, and it's still arguably Palm for Pond, greatest fighter in the world.

[1135] How long have you known him?

[1136] I don't know the first one.

[1137] I met him before he was in the UFC when I used to live in Melbourne.

[1138] He came down to train at Absolute.

[1139] Yeah.

[1140] And then we really connected on Ultima Fighter.

[1141] He, one of his guys who was going to bring to Oldham a fighter, Braddell pulled out last second.

[1142] So he called me when I was in Puerto Rico, and he's like, do you want to coach on Tuff for five weeks?

[1143] And like I said, Puerto Rico was apocalypse now.

[1144] I was like, yeah, get me out of here.

[1145] So I jumped on that opportunity, and we were in Vegas five weeks together.

[1146] Because he was meant to fight Ortega, and then he got hit with COVID real bad.

[1147] Got stuck in, I think he was in hospital for maybe one to two weeks.

[1148] And then before he flew back to Australia, they were like, all right, maybe we just do you guys as the ultimate fighter coach.

[1149] So I jumped on board with that.

[1150] And that's really when we've become close.

[1151] Obviously, I was useful in the Ortega fight, I helped him get out of submissions.

[1152] He fought then Korean zombie Max Holloway.

[1153] I basically just held the bucket at that point in the corner, a couple striking fights.

[1154] And then again, yeah, we had to tackle the Islam problem.

[1155] So I did spend five to six weeks down there preparing for that.

[1156] How did you tackle the Islam problem?

[1157] How did I tackle?

[1158] Was you, somebody who barely knows anything about wrestling, having to help?

[1159] Obviously doesn't take much, you know, especially wrestling wrestling.

[1160] Did the beard help or like what in all seriousness?

[1161] What were some of the key ideas that you worked on with Volcanovsky to prepare for it?

[1162] I had the help of Frank Hickman.

[1163] Hickman was down there too, one of the Hickman brothers wrestling coach.

[1164] So we were sort of like problem solving.

[1165] I mean, basically we were confident in Vox's fence wrestling, his cage work.

[1166] He's super good on the cage, super like under respected in that position.

[1167] And we knew that if you were able to take the scramble, to the cage, he would be effective against Islam.

[1168] Because again, Islam is background in Sambo freestyle wrestling, but I mean, honestly, he's probably got the same experience on the cage as Volks.

[1169] Obviously, some of those wrestling skills will translate very well to the cage, but the cage is still somewhat of a gray area and equalizer.

[1170] And Volks, again, incredible ability to stand up, incredible defense on the cage, which you saw.

[1171] We worked on strategies to get up and a ton of submission defense.

[1172] Islam loves Camoras.

[1173] rear naked from the back, arm bars, those are sort of in arm triangles, dominant submissions.

[1174] But again, the guys he submitted, not grapplers, apart from Charles Olivera.

[1175] And again, Charles Oliverer was basically knocked out at that point.

[1176] So I was still impressively submitted him.

[1177] But again, I always told people this.

[1178] They thought it was crazy.

[1179] I was like, Charles Oliverer versus Islam in a grappling match, Olivera is going to win that match.

[1180] Like submission grappling.

[1181] Submission grappling, yeah.

[1182] So in a pure grappling skill set, I think Oliver is a more dangerous grappler.

[1183] So we didn't even come into it thinking Islam was this unstoppable boogeyman that people make him out to be.

[1184] So we approached her from that, just focused on the techniques, ability to get back up, using turtle to get back up, using turtle to scoot to the cage to get back up and ham fighting from there, keeping it pretty safe.

[1185] But what makes Vogue so special, I think is his gas tank, gas tank and his willpower.

[1186] He's just unbreakable.

[1187] The Dagestani guys, Khabib, Islam, they are good at submissions, but they break guys mentally and they fatigue him and then they take the submission that's offered.

[1188] Oliver is a guy that can jump on submissions and have an incredible technical ability to finish those submissions, whether you're fresh or you're tired, and then you combine that with Volcanovsky, who incredible willpower never gets tired, you're never going to break him, and as you saw, he only attempted one submission in the whole fire.

[1189] Is that learned?

[1190] Is that trained?

[1191] Or you're just born with that, that mental toughness?

[1192] It's a good question.

[1193] I mean, he's like an anomaly, like the entire fight camp, not nervous at all, supremely confident.

[1194] The whole fight week, completely confident.

[1195] He just has an attitude like, oh, everyone casts me out, we'll see.

[1196] You know what I mean?

[1197] Islam.

[1198] He's like, let's see.

[1199] No doubt.

[1200] No doubt at all.

[1201] Super relaxed.

[1202] Up until about five minutes before, and then he starts stamp himself up.

[1203] He's like, you are not taking this belt from my family.

[1204] He gets into that.

[1205] sort of mindset.

[1206] He actually says that outlawed?

[1207] You can't teach that survival.

[1208] He didn't even take a fight, you know?

[1209] Have you guys ever been, like, pushed to the limit like that or broken in a grappling match?

[1210] I'll do it in practice.

[1211] Like, I'll push myself to, like, I think it might pass out or die or something.

[1212] Like, as far as, like, how tired you get, you know, because, like, in a match.

[1213] You try not to ever get close to that in the match.

[1214] Yeah, you try to, because, you know, it's.

[1215] It's important to understand where your exhaustion point is.

[1216] But, yeah, if you have to push to that limit in a match, you're probably doing something wrong.

[1217] You know, like, if you, like, you see in matches where guys sprint the last, like, minute, they try to win the match the last minute.

[1218] And it's like, you definitely had some mistakes leading up to that if you have to, you know, got to go balls a wall.

[1219] Okay.

[1220] But has there been ever times in competition?

[1221] Especially, like, early on, because you're like, you wrestled pretty hard and wrestling is pretty exhausting.

[1222] like not wrestling but you know wrestling style kind of thing going against the best people in the world yeah i mean i definitely again i think i think in practice is important to uh do that hard work that where competition is is is much easier you know i think if you if you red line in practice and you really push to like death store uh then once you're in competition and you're working with you know you're being fresh in a comp i mean it's it's much better have you ever been to that thing what Dan Gable talks about always wanting to be to a place where you can't get off the mat like you work so hard in the training room you can't get off the mat and I think he says he's failed at that in his career he was always able to at least crawl off the mat yeah I definitely never like actually died on the mat but I felt like I was going to die you know sure what about you do quit all the time I get a lot cramp I'm like you know what you got me my let's do this against the barn dude if I'm asking Craig for a role he's in the bathroom somewhere.

[1223] Do you see the value of pushing yourself to that place where you're knocking on death?

[1224] Yeah, but within safety, you know, because obviously the most serious injuries occur when you're tired over training and stuff like that.

[1225] So I think, like, taking a page out of what those MMA fighters do, especially Vox with his training, like he's not necessarily pushing crazy in each round, but he's doing extra conditioning, assault bike stuff, crazy workouts outside.

[1226] But he does do some crazy training workouts, but all safe, very safe.

[1227] Like when he's redlining like that in the training room, it's a very controlled, safe setting.

[1228] I think to do that in jiu -jitsu against some of these lunatics out there that are trying to kill you, especially when you have a name, can be dangerous.

[1229] So your approach to jihadists is don't warm up and don't try too hard.

[1230] No, for safety.

[1231] No, for safety, though.

[1232] Yeah, longevity, you know.

[1233] And talk shit about Russians.

[1234] I got it.

[1235] I got it.

[1236] you.

[1237] Oh, you mentioned cage work.

[1238] What's interesting to you that you've learned over all this time about cage work?

[1239] What's like, what's interesting about the dynamics of that?

[1240] Are you talking about both like the control in the dominant position, but also getting up from the bottom while you're against the cage, all of that?

[1241] The added dimension of that cage, that wool being there changes a lot of stuff, right?

[1242] So obviously, in some ways, it's a much lower impact wrestling style because you can't be swirled on.

[1243] You can shoot, the cage is going to block their feet, you're going to be able to chase down their hips.

[1244] It's just a completely different fight.

[1245] And again, because of Islam's judo skills, that upper body controls, you see he's able to use against the cage, like the inside trips, sort of the Yuchumata style, Hirai Goshi throws.

[1246] So obviously those skills do translate.

[1247] But, yeah, I think the cage is a great equalizer for a lot of things like athleticism and stuff.

[1248] It takes away a huge speed advantage or aspects.

[1249] of the fight.

[1250] So he's really good at standing up.

[1251] What is, is there, I assume he learned all that from you and your instructional just stand up.

[1252] I mean, we were so confident.

[1253] I was like, you know what?

[1254] Why don't we put this thing out a month before the fight?

[1255] Yeah.

[1256] Maybe the illegal download hasn't made its way to Russia yet.

[1257] Yeah.

[1258] But it was there for him.

[1259] Can you, can you explain to me what's in the instructional just stand up?

[1260] Like, what are the ideas?

[1261] I mean, the old school way to stand up, people talk about the technical get up, you know, old gracie you put the hand but i mean that's that doesn't work hasn't worked for 20 years you know if you look at everyone that gets up in m -ma they're using turtle to get up you're using wrestling to get up you know what i mean yeah which is a counter to what pure jihitsu says they say don't expose the back don't ever expose your back i think jihitsu is a terrible way to get back to the feet because if you were to retain guard and go half got a close guard super hard positions to get up you're basically putting yourself in a leg tuck for wrestling so i think you need to borrow from wrestling to learn how to get up in an MMA fire.

[1262] So basically how to safely expose your own back while not allowing them to get hooks and use that to get back up or at least not allow them to get two hooks.

[1263] And that applies for MMA especially.

[1264] For MMA especially because obviously striking is a factor, but if they are striking, they don't have locked hands around your body means you are able to move.

[1265] You are able to make an attempt to get back up.

[1266] They have to choose between control, submission or strikes.

[1267] Post from Reddit Why does Craig Jones Push so hard for a Bottom is Bad Jiu Jitsu What is so bad about playing bottom Guard such as Half Guard or Delahue Those are the two options No one likes the bottom Why would I want to get up It's the question for all of you Is the bottom a bad place to be?

[1268] I mean the bottom's bad If you don't want that gun on top you That's why I look at it You know That sounds like something a cowboy would say But I don't know if there's much meaning I think the point of jihits is both are dangerous being on bottom and on top.

[1269] I think the longer the match is probably favorites the top guy more just because every movement the bottom guy makes is probably carrying your weight, carrying that gravity on top of you.

[1270] So I think it's a bit more efficient passing from the top as opposed to sweeping from bottom.

[1271] Bottom's reactive.

[1272] Top is active.

[1273] The top player decides how to engage, how to approach the guy that can use angles, they can use footwork, that can throw people.

[1274] throw the legs by so that's an active position bottom's reactive reactive reactive you're going to get fatigued yeah i think i think it's very difficult to gas somebody out while playing guard uh but i think it's very easy to gas somebody out uh when attempting to pass it well you guys are talking about guessing people out but is there more dangers from the bottom like in terms of submissions and all that kind of stuff or no i'm back and forth because i'm a top i'm a top player but i understand the value of being on bottom like when i do play guard the bottom i feel like the the submissions come much easier.

[1275] And when I'm on top, they come also pretty easy, but maybe I just take a different route.

[1276] Top on the streets, bottom in the shades.

[1277] Yeah, there they go.

[1278] What was the hardest part of the training for the training camp for Volcanowski?

[1279] You're just experiencing world -class MMA fighters training and giving your approach to jihits of not trying too hard, no matter what.

[1280] Yeah, yeah.

[1281] I mean, from my perspective, there's a lot of pressure for that.

[1282] You know, like, that's a, that's a lot of pressure for me to go in and think that I could possibly figure out a way to help this guy address this guy that's basically never been beaten.

[1283] I think you've got knocked out once, but basically not really even been put in bad positions, you know what I mean?

[1284] So that's a lot of pressure on me, especially because Volcanozzi is such a great guy.

[1285] Yeah.

[1286] Jiu -Jitsu's different, you know, like you coach a guy, he loses, he has time to tap.

[1287] But in America, he gets severely hurt.

[1288] Yeah.

[1289] There's a lot more weight in what you need to do as a coach.

[1290] You have a greater sense of responsibility to their health and well -being.

[1291] You know, like, obviously, I know folks' kids.

[1292] I know his wife.

[1293] You know what I mean?

[1294] They're putting faith in you to not just win the fight, but keep this man safe.

[1295] You know, so from my perspective, a hell of a lot more pressure coaching him as an MMA fighter.

[1296] So almost like the psychological aspect of like, I'm doing the best you can for him.

[1297] Exactly, yep, yep.

[1298] What was the hardest about the actual training?

[1299] Was it the technical aspect of trying to figure out the puzzle of Islam?

[1300] Or was it, like, being a good training partner in the, like, in figuring out how the grappling would work, basically playing your best impression of Markachev?

[1301] Were you trying to actually impersonate him, like, not just visually, but, like, in style?

[1302] Yeah, definitely, definitely visually.

[1303] You're not as good looking, but go ahead.

[1304] A little duller, but, uh, no. In terms of the training, yeah, I mean, Islam's known as incredibly strong guys.

[1305] Obviously, I'm heavier than Islam, so theoretically I should be able to replicate that strength difference.

[1306] And then in terms of grappling, targeting those submissions that Islam does, like focusing on those in the training room, focusing on the way he holds half guard, and really, in the grappling sense, trying to replicate him on the ground.

[1307] And then, yeah, I wrestled with him on the wall a ton, trying to replicate, obviously, to the best of my ability, a lot of the stuff he does on the wall, body locate.

[1308] heavy, inside trip, Uchimada's, and just constantly putting the work on Vox, you know what I mean, like constantly chaining attacks against him, really replicate that.

[1309] As he's trying to get up and escape and all that kind of stuff.

[1310] So, all the submissions, like both judo and submissions, just attack and attacking.

[1311] Exactly, and there's only so much you can do, really, because obviously he's been, I think he's been fighting a long time, so it's like, you're trying to polish what he already is good at.

[1312] You can't just completely create entirely new game for him in the space of six weeks.

[1313] So you're trying to take what he's already effective at, add to it.

[1314] And luckily, a lot of the stuff he's already very good at was easy to add to for the fight.

[1315] Question from Reddit.

[1316] I'm very curious why other MMA fighters don't employ high -profile grapplers from B Team and New Wave to improve their grappling.

[1317] That's from the suburb.

[1318] By now, it's clear that they are levels above almost everyone in MMA simply because fighters there don't specialize in grappling but it doesn't seem like fighters even champions get training partners from the most successful teams why is that the case from your experience why doesn't it could be call you you might now put in a good word for me oh oh i will yeah that's right he takes a joke pretty well yeah um no no no you'll be walking on with open arms I think your average judicious coach MMA fighters have bad experience with judic guys.

[1319] Jizzi doesn't have a massive place in MMA.

[1320] Obviously rounds, stand -ups, it's hard to submit people.

[1321] Your average Brazilian Jiujijixti Blackbell doesn't know anything about holding a guy down, doesn't know anything about how to stand up.

[1322] Sure.

[1323] So I think if you overly utilize that judic guy that hasn't had experience in more modern no ghee or training MMA fighters previously, it's going to be a complete waste of time to him.

[1324] I think that's enough to realize that.

[1325] Do you have, and do you guys, do you have interest in MMA at all?

[1326] Just not even like, well, certainly just competing yourself, but like just understanding the puzzle of MMA.

[1327] Yeah, I mean, I've been a fan of mixed martial arts, you know, for a very long time, you know, before I trained JITS.

[1328] Personally, personally, I'd much rather coach than fight.

[1329] But, I mean, I'd fight somebody for, you know, a good check and I get to pick the opponent have a proper camp.

[1330] Okay.

[1331] I could think of a good opponent, you know.

[1332] Who's that?

[1333] All right.

[1334] Who do you think is the greatest MMA fighter of all time?

[1335] Craig, we can start with you.

[1336] Just as a fan of the sport as somebody's been deep in it.

[1337] I mean, from my perspective, after that performance, I'm going to say Volcanovsky because he was able to decisively outstrike Max Holloway, one of the greatest strikers in the sport, to hang with the wrestling of Islam Akachev.

[1338] And in terms of Ortega, he was able to survive Ortega, who has some of the most dangerous submissions in Jiu -Jitsu.

[1339] So I think, in my opinion, technically, he's the best.

[1340] So even though he technically lost, he still has the crown.

[1341] I believe so.

[1342] Given the size difference, given he's moving up and weight.

[1343] Yeah.

[1344] I think all those factors, really.

[1345] The underdog, everything, the pressure.

[1346] Did you think he would be able to hang in any of the wrestling exchanges with Islam?

[1347] no no no I was really surprised that's why in my eyes like it's kind of funny like winning at the end of the day I feel like judges influence that although I did think Australian judges would rob the other way but I was assuming they kind of somebody paid somebody and not enough maybe but but in general I just thought he won sort of in the eyes of what martial art stands for like sort of going to the fire and survive and thrive and finish the last round strong which is kind of spiritually is what a victory is.

[1348] So I wish you would kept going.

[1349] One more rounds.

[1350] Yeah, exactly, that kind of thing.

[1351] What about you?

[1352] What do you think?

[1353] What are the fighters you admire?

[1354] What do you think is the greatest of all time?

[1355] I think the fighter I paid most attention to was John Jones.

[1356] You know, he has a great ability just to mix the high -level striking, high -level grappling.

[1357] Although his, you know, jiu -jitsu by itself is an, you know, probably isn't like, you know, super high level.

[1358] But his ability to mix everything together, I would say he's the best.

[1359] And he's a fellow, you know, heavier guy, heavyweight now.

[1360] So it's nice to see, you know, how those guys move at that weight.

[1361] And a fellow natural athlete.

[1362] See what I did there?

[1363] What about you, Nikki?

[1364] Yeah, if I had to pick a goat, I would probably have to say Khabib, just because he was he was undefeated and he had a very you know high finishing rate you know very few of his fights actually went to a decision um so he just overall he dominated almost every single opponent he won against the dominance uh i mean we've been joking about it but uh craig what do you think makes the dagestani fighter so good like from this small region of the world so much dominance has come i mean obviously the amount of freestyle wrestling champions from that region probably puts their wrestling above and beyond the best in all of MMA and obviously a lot of, even in the Olympics, a lot of champions out of there, right?

[1365] So I think that skill set combines with them adding effective pin controls on the ground and jiu -jitsu submissions.

[1366] But again, I think it's that hard training.

[1367] Those guys like Khabib would maintain that pressure throughout the entire fire and break guys down.

[1368] Their ability to fatigue guys to a breaking point, I think it's something they do best.

[1369] I wonder what that is, was that technique, what is that?

[1370] What is it about their upbringing?

[1371] Because it's just that part of the world.

[1372] With the Seteer brothers on the freestyle wrestling side to all the mixed martial arts people.

[1373] Like it must be part of the culture also.

[1374] They must be doing something.

[1375] I haven't seen a convincing explanation of why yet.

[1376] Of what specific about their training, what specific about their culture that creates that.

[1377] Okay.

[1378] What do you think about like the, the flip side, do you admire somebody like Connor McGregor who knows how to create a spectacle?

[1379] You, Craig, who likes spectacles?

[1380] Spectacles, yeah.

[1381] I mean, I really admire early Connor McGregor because I found him absolutely hilarious.

[1382] You know, like I felt like that was peak banter.

[1383] I feel like he just took the American world by storm.

[1384] Aussies, British, Irish, Kiwis.

[1385] I believe we have a way better level of banter.

[1386] and attacking each other, and it's almost too easy to pick on Americans to take themselves very seriously.

[1387] I mean, arguably even other parts of the world, too, the far east of Europe, you know?

[1388] But that's the tricky thing with Connor.

[1389] I think he was, I feel like you could have gotten in the same kind of trouble because the Russians really took everything very seriously.

[1390] They weren't joking around.

[1391] Yeah, that's the problem.

[1392] It's like, it's a bit of, I mean, some things he definitely takes too far, you know, but I felt like early on he had the right balance, where he wouldn't really cross the line but he would do he would do enough he just took it to another level obviously later in his career but I think early on a bit of innocent banter it gets a lot of eyes on the sport though it's probably by far the most popular of combat athlete of all time because of that yeah I feel like you have to cross the line I don't think enough people appreciate like the values he's brought by crossing the line he's making a sacrifice crossing the line that's going to affect him for the rest of his life you know I see I don't think so I think you'd always walk back.

[1393] Because I think, unlike people might disagree with this, I, well, yeah, I thought he always radiated a respect for the opponent, like, afterwards and underneath it.

[1394] It felt like the same way you do, when I hear you shit talking, I don't see a person who really means it.

[1395] I see a person who's having fun with it.

[1396] I always saw Connor McGregor the same way.

[1397] I don't know, but people took it, like, extremely seriously.

[1398] But I saw the respect, like the common respect the martial artists have for each other that felt like it was always there.

[1399] If you don't like that individual, you're going to perceive what they say more negatively than if you obviously were.

[1400] So I feel like if you like someone, you're going to never think they really crossed the line.

[1401] That's true.

[1402] So you're saying, I like you.

[1403] It must be.

[1404] You're bullshit in a positive light.

[1405] Are there people that hate you?

[1406] I mean, some of the family members have just stayed.

[1407] people that really get to know you all hate you the fans love me the friends hate me it's a good place to be keep your enemies close all right what do you think is the most important muscle for jizisos is the biceps?

[1408] I think a strong I think a strong back I think back one, core second and then biceps okay biceps cool do you legitimately think like weight lifting helps jitsu it's kind of the discussion under steroids is like the muscle mass and strength and power and explosiveness all that i think sometimes when we're at that upper echelon of competition there's there's only there's like little minute battles that you have to win and if you're if you're relatively close in technique then a lot of times a stronger opponent pulls it out but it could be also just limitation right you hold position too long uh what about for hobbyists do you recommend weightlifting like when you see people in the gym i always recommend weight lifting i i almost see muscle as the body's armor, right?

[1409] The more armor you have, the more damage you can kind of take and, you know, maybe recovery is a little bit better.

[1410] And I've always seen weightlifting as it means to stick to my routine.

[1411] Like if there's no point in lifting if you're not eating right and you're not sleeping, right?

[1412] So if you kind of put it all together, then it's beneficial.

[1413] What about you guys?

[1414] Do you go to the gym?

[1415] I go to the gym, yeah.

[1416] Believe it on.

[1417] Do you go like an elliptical and that butt machine or?

[1418] Yeah, I focus on the glit.

[1419] Houtes heavily.

[1420] All right.

[1421] What about, like, what about injury prevention and so on?

[1422] How do you train to minimize the risk of injury?

[1423] You guys have all been pretty beat up.

[1424] You've gotten a major injury with the ACL.

[1425] Yeah.

[1426] So how do you train to minimize injury?

[1427] Probably not the right guy to ask.

[1428] Yeah.

[1429] Actually, can you talk through your injury?

[1430] Like, what happened?

[1431] Yeah, so about one week prior to this last ADCC, I was wrestling with this guy named kenta who was also competing and uh i went to go lift him from like a rear body lock and he hooked the outside of my leg and we just felt something pop you know he felt a shift with his with his leg and uh when it first happened it hurt for like the first 30 seconds and then i honestly debated i was like maybe it was just you know some freak thing i was like i literally thought about continuing the session uh then the next day i woke up and it was like super sore i was you know, limping around, couldn't do a full squat.

[1432] So it pretty much killed all of my training for the entire week leading up to the event.

[1433] So I couldn't train or anything.

[1434] Messed up the cut.

[1435] Obviously, there's added nerves with that too, you know, when you're not in the gym every day leading up to the competition.

[1436] I went out there.

[1437] I wasn't really able to pull guard because I couldn't get, you know, full heel to buck connection, which is inevitable with playing guard and I was very hesitant to shoot as well.

[1438] So I came out with the idea of just trying to use hand fighting to tire my first opponent out and then mainly look to get to underhooks or overhooks and do mostly upper body wrestling.

[1439] In the beginning of the match, I, you know, successfully got to an underhook.

[1440] I got to a rear body lock.

[1441] He tried to roll and I ended up in top position and side control.

[1442] But it was during the no points period.

[1443] And then as the match went on, I gassed out and eventually he ended up taking me down and then scoring with two hooks on the back.

[1444] So what's the injury?

[1445] Yeah, so I got an MRI actually after the event.

[1446] I didn't know.

[1447] Wait, wait, wait, wait, you waited until after the event?

[1448] Yeah, I waited until after the event.

[1449] Because like knowledge or ignorance is bliss?

[1450] Yeah, exactly.

[1451] I was like, honestly, I don't even want to know what's wrong.

[1452] I was like, I'd just go out there, compete.

[1453] You know, I knew it's like the biggest event to date and I really wanted to do it.

[1454] think about not doing it uh it definitely was a thought in my head especially that that uh the day after you know it's always the worst day whenever you have like a serious injury is the day after uh and i was like man i really can't do a full squat i was like i don't even know how i'm going to be able to do this uh it got a bit better over as the uh the week went on um but i was like man i have to go out there and compete i was like i'm it'll always be in the back of my mind like what if if i ended up pulling out what did you think about this hole i thought it was just being a pussy yeah yeah slap him around just yell at him I didn't think we pressured you we just say you make your own decision right we're just like is that tricky thing to do like with a heavily like like like a serious injury like this we don't know we didn't know that was the thing we didn't know honestly initially I thought it was I tore my lateral meniscus um but that ended up not being the case it ended up being a full ACL tear I was actually super surprised when I got the MRI results so yeah we we didn't know how bad it actually was what do you think about that situation i think uh nicky's a tough kid and uh i mean when you're so close to that competition you know there's not many you don't get many opportunities like that to compete in front of you know 15 000 people it's like you know props to you for pushing through it and getting it and man he had a close match one of the best grapplers in his way class and it's like you know a few adjustments here and there and especially, you know, if he was able to train previously leading up to that match, I think he pulls it out.

[1455] So some of the things you mentioned is nerves, so there's extra nerves just because of you're underprepared?

[1456] Yeah, I mean, you know, feeling underprepared.

[1457] You want to go into a competition with, you know, the confidence I did everything that I could leading up to this vent.

[1458] I trained as much as I could.

[1459] And then when an injury prevents that, you start to doubt yourself more.

[1460] How do you guys think about injury?

[1461] How do you train, you know, training with the best in the world, training to be the best in the world and avoiding injury because you've gotten you tore your bice yeah yeah i tore bicep dude honestly i i was i was a body building you know for like seven years and no lie i did i trained biceps like most days like almost that almost every day in those seven years pretty much i injured my i injured myself that's so jersey man anything else or just the biceps just i mean yeah i injured the bicep um pretty much i The day before a wrestling practice, I had, like, a killer arm day.

[1462] And my arm day, I just mean training biceps, very rigorously getting a sick pump.

[1463] And I go to wrestling practice the next day, you know, pretty late.

[1464] I should have been there.

[1465] I didn't get a proper warm -up in.

[1466] And the first thing I do is I shake hands and I go to shoot a single leg.

[1467] And boom, I just blew my arm out the first movement I did.

[1468] So just not being warmed up properly in addition to, you know, having a very vigorous arm day fuel hours prior you hear that you hear that about warm up so like what what are some lessons about avoiding injury uh training i would say number one is is warming up properly making sure you're your body's hot before you do hot stuff okay uh and what does warm up look like for you jitza or non -jitist stuff yeah just for a warm up in general i'll do i'll do something like a uh if i'm talking competition something like a uh a jog walk back and forth a times than a sprint jog a few times to get that heart rate you know up and down yeah and then uh i'll grab a partner i actually just filmed the DVD uh or instructional specifically on the pre -match ritual um in addition to that i'll i'll you know grab a partner i'll drill some some movements uh typically i'll drill some bad things like i'll start from bottom bottom mount bottom side control workout from there and in pretty much like 20 minutes in i'm i'm hot and i'm ready to go for you know rounds well what about you Greg so what uh what's what's the way to avoid injury?

[1469] What's the worst injury you've had?

[1470] What's the worst injury?

[1471] I don't even know.

[1472] I'm pretty good.

[1473] Pretty healthy.

[1474] Whenever you quit and practice, I have some mental injury.

[1475] Has your heart ever been broken?

[1476] Many times, many times.

[1477] But there's a thing I notice, people that spend the most time warming up, often the most injured.

[1478] It's a strong correlation.

[1479] You can't argue with science.

[1480] I remember.

[1481] Training with Oliver Tyson, Oliver Tyson would have a 60 minute warm up.

[1482] Surprise, surprise, always injured.

[1483] Yeah.

[1484] Very common.

[1485] Yeah.

[1486] I find that very common in the training room.

[1487] No, I think people, it's how they train.

[1488] Like if you, like me, first sign of discomfort, oh, back pedal, you know?

[1489] Push through that stuff.

[1490] Go too hard.

[1491] Go when you're too tired.

[1492] You know what I mean?

[1493] Get too emotional in the role.

[1494] I feel like those are the times that I've been hurt where I just like, oh, I can't let this guy get me. When I have that attitude and try, I believe it's how you train and sort of obviously.

[1495] So what does this come from?

[1496] I mean, like, positionally, too, like, because you're training against some killers.

[1497] I mean, you're training, you're training with him and going probably pretty hard.

[1498] If Craig gets a little tired, he's like, yeah, I'm good for today.

[1499] Once a month with Nickyrod, that's it, you know?

[1500] And then you quit, like, 30 seconds in, just so, yeah, you know, you got to be safe, you know?

[1501] I like it.

[1502] What about you?

[1503] What have you learned from the ACL?

[1504] Do rehab, yeah.

[1505] Yeah, rehab definitely would help.

[1506] Oh, so you haven't been, like.

[1507] I didn't get surgery.

[1508] I didn't do essentially any rehab.

[1509] I just have noisie all of my left leg.

[1510] So what's the leg having no way?

[1511] The surgeon goes, you've got two options.

[1512] Surgery, rehab only.

[1513] Nicky goes, I'll do nothing.

[1514] Yeah.

[1515] Definitely should pick up on the rehab.

[1516] What's rehab for that look like?

[1517] Like twice a day of doing some weird.

[1518] Like bands or something.

[1519] It's good he's learned from.

[1520] He's learned some valuable lessons about taking care of his body.

[1521] Yeah.

[1522] What's it like just training with no ACL?

[1523] So at the beginning, it was definitely a little iffy.

[1524] You know, I would have an occasional buckle.

[1525] Like, I'd just be wrestling with somebody and go to step back and it buckle backwards a bit.

[1526] But honestly, now, like, I haven't had a single buckle instance in a while.

[1527] It feels 100 % normal when I train.

[1528] It feels better than my other knee, to be honest.

[1529] Like, I had my meniscus taken out in my right leg, and that one gets sore more often than the no ACL leg.

[1530] Okay.

[1531] All right.

[1532] So putting that aside.

[1533] Is there wisdom you've learned from that experience?

[1534] Yeah, definitely you should be doing rehab and prehab.

[1535] I think that, you know, especially if you're a hobbyist or a professional athlete, you should be lifting, you know, whether you're rehabbing an injury or just for injury prevention.

[1536] So I'm actually closer to Craig because I've trained my whole life, like pretty hard.

[1537] Obviously just a hobbyist, but like twice a day, did you do?

[1538] wrestling, all that, never broke anything, never injured, kind of like similar philosophy, except like last year, I guess, a year and a half ago, I got a tiny like groin pull injury and it still hasn't healed.

[1539] And I've been using your approach of not giving a shit.

[1540] Yeah.

[1541] And like, surely this is going to heal, it'll be fine, but it hasn't.

[1542] Of course, if I was like an actual athlete, I would like probably still train through it and just fuck it, figure it out.

[1543] But when you have other stuff going on, you just kind of, waded out.

[1544] But now I think probably rehab, especially as you get older, you have to do that kind of stuff.

[1545] I think it's important for people to, you know, determine whether they're, what they're going through is an injury or they're just hurt a little bit.

[1546] Because injury, you know, for sure, take time, rehab it and get better.

[1547] But a lot of people, like, they'll stub a toe or something.

[1548] Like, you're out for a few weeks, you know, so.

[1549] Well, that's the problem with the injury I have.

[1550] It feels like a stubbed toe.

[1551] So I was like, I don't know, I'll just wait a couple days.

[1552] It'll be fine.

[1553] And then a couple days later, it's not fine.

[1554] And you wait, and then I never got an MRI, never got any of that.

[1555] It's like, I'm sure I'll be fine.

[1556] Yeah.

[1557] So it's hard to know sometimes.

[1558] Like, what, it's hard to know.

[1559] I feel like a lot of people will just not check it out.

[1560] I'll be fine.

[1561] Because there's several failure cases.

[1562] There is a failure case of where everything is a stub -toe.

[1563] You're like, fuck it.

[1564] Like, you're bleeding everywhere.

[1565] You know, it's fine.

[1566] Whatever.

[1567] So you have to be careful.

[1568] A lot of people.

[1569] can fall into that too i think i'm in that category go to the doctor why do you go to the doctor yeah your best approach is typically wait until something else gets hurt so that you'll forget about the grain that's yeah exactly that's i was hoping i was hoping to get hurt so waiting for the for the broken heart maybe okay that that was very helpful oh you mentioned you're doing a uh uh a whole thing on the pre -match ritual can you kind of preview like what kind of what's involved in your pre -match ritual it's a pretty big in the wrestling culture and the fighting culture like kind of what what to do before your competition but uh i think a few of our a few people are just kind of missing out exactly you know what to do so i break it down for them i i bring it down to people like uh four weeks in advance um how how you you should prep you know your trading and your nutrition and your sleep for competition um in addition to that i break it down even like to a smaller scale like what how how early you should get to the event when you're when you should be visualizing you know your competition uh what to do like you know 30 minutes before 20 minutes 10 minutes 5 minutes and the kind of mentality you should have throughout those uh those times before you actually step onto the mat when are you visualizing like how much you're visualizing the action when you say competition you're talking about the tournament or the actual people you might be competing against a little bit of both i'll spend time uh that's just visualizing the crowd like if it's going to be you know an arena with 15 000 and people, I'll spend time in practice and whatnot, like, putting myself inside that arena and visualizing, you know, stepping on the mat and hearing the crowd scream and whatnot.

[1570] That way, you know, when competition time comes, it's kind of the same deal.

[1571] I'm accustomed to it.

[1572] In addition, when I get to the arena, I'll step on the mat.

[1573] I'll kind of look at everything.

[1574] I'll expose my senses to what it's going to be, and then I'll kind of shut everything off.

[1575] Like a lot, some people, you know, scroll through their phone and can treat it like normal, have this normal conversations.

[1576] For me, I like to limit my sensory.

[1577] input my sensory intake before i go out and compete i just feel like sometimes i feel like sometimes we only have so many decisions you can make it a day and i want all of my best decisions to be made when it matters when it counts uh what about you what's do you uh limit your sensory input on game day honestly no routine nothing eh i don't yeah i don't do anything i'm just like guys a double silver we're both You should get it.

[1578] You should buy as a structural.

[1579] I'll help you.

[1580] I'll get another silver.

[1581] Now, honestly, nothing.

[1582] Hey, I just try to relax, treat it like before training.

[1583] Have a...

[1584] Are you visualizations or no?

[1585] No, no visualization.

[1586] So the opposite of visualization.

[1587] You just avoid it.

[1588] Yeah.

[1589] Yeah, I don't even think about it.

[1590] I'm just like, yeah, we'll have a good time.

[1591] You know, try to appreciate it that I can do it.

[1592] By the way, when you visualize, are you visualizing tough positions?

[1593] Or you visualize winning, mostly?

[1594] Definitely visualize.

[1595] winning i visualize how i can get how i'm going to get to my most dominant positions because you know in comp i want to do what i'm best at i'm also see uh i see my opponent in his best positions and how i'm going to escape those if necessary but most of the time i'm just visualizing exactly what i'm going to do in that match and i go out there and do it okay so what head when when your teammate crag is you know another like world class athlete has a fundamentally different philosophy than you do you visualize being frustrated at him not No, not frustrated, but I'll definitely come into practice with, like, solutions to problems that Craig gives me. You know, like, if Craig's, you know, catching me something or giving me issues, like, you know, I'll go home.

[1596] I'll, I'll watch a match that he lost for his motivation, and I'll come back and I'll put it on.

[1597] Just DM him, like, a highlight reel of him losing.

[1598] Yep.

[1599] What about you?

[1600] Like, does it affect you that you're a bit of an outlier?

[1601] Usually before I compete, right before I go out there, I go, why am I doing this?

[1602] Do I still need to do this?

[1603] And I think, like, hopefully don't embarrass myself affects my instructional sales.

[1604] That's the last thought.

[1605] But I don't even put too much thought into the whole competing thing.

[1606] I'm just like, you know what?

[1607] Train hard.

[1608] Hopefully I have a good time out of that.

[1609] What about the motivation aspect?

[1610] Like, that voice that says, like, why am I doing this?

[1611] That voice can break a lot of people.

[1612] Like, in the weight cut, it can break a lot of people.

[1613] Like, why am I doing this stupid, silly sport?

[1614] Like, you said, a bunch of dudes just rolling around.

[1615] Like, what's the point?

[1616] I'll call someone with a nine to five job.

[1617] And I'll be like, yeah, that's why I'm doing this.

[1618] Avoid that.

[1619] Sure.

[1620] So those DVDs, man. Yeah, I didn't get too deep on competing.

[1621] Yeah.

[1622] We're so polar opposite.

[1623] It's like almost uncomfortable to be around here.

[1624] Obviously, one of us is a clean athlete.

[1625] You should do a DVD on that.

[1626] What about you in terms of preparing for competition, Mickey?

[1627] The day before, the day of, are there, rituals that you follow uh honestly like the the few days leading up to it uh it's different for me every time um like sometimes i'll warm up before the i compete sometimes i won't sometimes i'll fast sometimes i'll eat so i literally it's just completely random i don't follow any specific thing um but in the training room leading up to the competition i'll definitely you know like nicky rod visualize that i'm walking out onto the competition mats you know i'll pick somebody that's you know a similar body type to the person that I'm competing against.

[1628] And then, you know, we'll start out with some distance between us.

[1629] We'll come out, smack hands and, you know, act like everything's a real competition.

[1630] I'll even sometimes have, you know, corners that will yell out times and things like that just to replicate it as much as possible.

[1631] That's funny.

[1632] Because I've talked to a lot of Olympic gold medalists.

[1633] They used to do a podcast with like athletes.

[1634] And they all sound like Nikki Rod.

[1635] Two of you are outliers.

[1636] I don't know.

[1637] Sometimes I'll do this.

[1638] sometimes so anyway but that's also just a culture I think maybe the chaos of not taking things too serious is actually really really helpful sometimes the pressure of taking everything way too seriously can break you I mean it's just don't think it's that biggest sport really I think if I compete every day in practice it just make competition much easier so I just put the pressure on there on the competition yeah yeah on the sorry on the training on the competing in the training I don't know Olympic sports aren't that big either financially and people take it extremely extremely me seriously.

[1639] I don't really get that much money from judo.

[1640] I mean, I just don't take Jiu -Jitsu that seriously because, like, I was just partying and having a good time until 21, and then I was like, oh, fuck, do I get a job?

[1641] Or do I pursue professional sports?

[1642] And I feel like if I could make a career in Jiu -Sah with a decision at that point.

[1643] And now you just stumbled your way somehow into, like, being at the top of the world.

[1644] Yeah, that's what I feel like I just walked into it.

[1645] I feel like I couldn't just do that in wrestling, boxing.

[1646] I couldn't do that in other sports.

[1647] what was the toughest match you've ever had that pushed you mentally physically technically this doesn't have to be the best person you face but was there like a moment in your career that was like really defining for you i mean i would say like the toughest mentally was just this this last ADCC you know i just had a big injury leading into it that kind of screwed the whole camp and weight cutting everything up uh so yeah i would say i would say the last ADCC Are you proud of your performance there?

[1648] Like he stepped on the mat, that you pushed through all of it?

[1649] Like I said, I'm a very competitive person, and I hate losing, so definitely not, yeah.

[1650] You had a collapse loan.

[1651] I actually.

[1652] Oh, man. Dude, he was so physically exhausted afterwards, couldn't breathe.

[1653] We had to get medical intervention.

[1654] He thought he had to collapse long.

[1655] I was the most tired that I've ever been in my life in that.

[1656] match.

[1657] I actually popped a blood vessel in my eye.

[1658] I was trying so hard.

[1659] He comes out.

[1660] He walks off of the 80 -CC mat backstage.

[1661] And I'm like, I'm kind of getting warmed up for my match.

[1662] And Nicky around comes, he walks over, huffing and puffing and his mom's right next to me. He looks at her.

[1663] He was like, I think I need help.

[1664] I think I was a lung collapse.

[1665] That's not true.

[1666] Dude.

[1667] No, not true.

[1668] My mom's the one that called for medical health.

[1669] I was just laying on the warm -up mat, fucking dying.

[1670] Well, we're happy.

[1671] You're fine.

[1672] Yeah.

[1673] Too working long.

[1674] Layed it all in the line.

[1675] What about you?

[1676] Craig.

[1677] Defining, or toughest matches?

[1678] Mm -hmm.

[1679] I mean, they're all pretty tough, you know?

[1680] I don't know.

[1681] I can't really pinpoint one.

[1682] I mean, probably the most annoying one was obviously the one where I had going in an arm by, I was like, tap, bro, and he wouldn't tap.

[1683] So I let him out.

[1684] Mentally, I was like, I shouldn't have done that.

[1685] Do you have a thing in your brain where says, should I shit talk now or not?

[1686] and you say no, I'm going to be respectful.

[1687] I just can't be serious about some of these things.

[1688] I don't know.

[1689] It's just silly.

[1690] It's just all of it, the whole thing.

[1691] What about you, Nicky, man?

[1692] Dude, honestly, most of my toughest matches are in the training room, right?

[1693] Because I started with these guys.

[1694] I started training under them, like, you know, started training at DDS when I didn't have any knowledge.

[1695] Like, I knew wrestling.

[1696] I knew, like, a knee cut in jitsu, but, like, I started training with them when I knew almost no jihitsu and then I had to like, you know, really work my way up.

[1697] So definitely in the training room, like being like having one of these guys on my back or like there's a stretch of like a few weeks or months when COVID first hit.

[1698] And it was just like four of the best grapplers in the world.

[1699] And we just did drilling in live rounds with these four guys.

[1700] And it was just, it was hard.

[1701] It was very hard.

[1702] You know, every round, doing six rounds, seven days a week with the best grapplers in the world.

[1703] And it's like you get no break and you're forced to learn on the go.

[1704] So I think for me in the training room that was definitely my toughest matches and that's where I built those mental calluses.

[1705] There was a period where I drew with Nickyrodd probably what, nine months, 12 months.

[1706] And typically speaking, like I said, no warm -ups, the first round we should take it pretty easy.

[1707] First round you start a mount.

[1708] The whole room, the rest of the training room, they take mount very lightly.

[1709] Me and Nickyrod would be fighting to the death every day.

[1710] I felt like we did an extra round every day.

[1711] it was very groaning I'm very mean when I'm in the midst of drilling or live like we would do we would drill wrestling you know quite a bit like stand up and in the drilling like I just wouldn't like Craig take me down like we're not going to live we're just drilling but I just wouldn't let and put me on the floor so things like that you know I know it escalate yeah so you mentioned mount like so you do positional training so is that would that be the hardest versus like live training open like starting from guard i would say mount and turtle definitely definitely made me very tough because you spend all this effort getting off of bottom out and then you got to get on top of a guy and at the time i'm not they good at holding guys down so they escape quick and i'm like fuck i just try to hold them down got to go back down same thing with a turtle it's like you you start bottom turtle you try to explode get out get away and then you know you switch and this guy gets up pretty quick and you're like damn i got to go right back down was that constant man it's very tough but definitely uh you know build some character on the mat what do you think is the value of positional training in general in jihizza actually this one just interacting with you guys it's not commonly done in just like regular jihadistice gyms what do you see because probably it's not commonly done because it's so most of the experience is just frustrating like if you're evenly matched you're basically frustrated the whole time if you're if you're doing it right there's a psychological battle that happens in like the mountain turtor rounds it's like you know because you maybe you get close to sub in a guy or maybe you do sub them when you start a turtle and you're on their back you finish them and then you get this high point and then immediately you got to go back down to defensive posture and it's very like it's emotionally like up and down so it's hard to do with it.

[1712] Super important if you're one of the better people in the gym because it just puts you in positions you don't find yourself in in regular training so I think like a lot of if you're a big fish in a small pony you don't do positional spying you're probably going to get exposed in competition you might even look silly in those positions.

[1713] So you really have to force yourself to do it, despite the fact that you're given someone worse than you, a position where they might catch you.

[1714] So you have to sort of put the ego aside.

[1715] Yeah, that's one of the things when I was training regularly.

[1716] I of course training with you guys, it's like trivial.

[1717] But I didn't work on putting myself in bad positions when you get better and you regret it.

[1718] Because the big negative thing that has consequence it has on competition is you don't take as many risks because you're kind of afraid for you back to get taken all that kind of stuff.

[1719] That was me before I went to DDS.

[1720] I remember I showed up there in that old position.

[1721] I was like, fuck this.

[1722] You better earn this position, you know?

[1723] Yeah, exactly.

[1724] I didn't really have escapes.

[1725] That was a learning curve for me, for sure.

[1726] Do you see the value in positional training, or is it just the source of tremendous frustration?

[1727] Yeah, I definitely think it plays a big part and, you know, your confidence when you step out onto the, The competition mats, you know, being confident that even if you get put in the worst possible situations, you know what to do and know how to work out of them.

[1728] So I had a long argument with, with Hadja Gracie when you visited, and he thinks Mount is the most dominant position, even Nogi versus Beck.

[1729] Is there a case to be made for that or no?

[1730] I think all of your opponent's utensils, their tools are in front of them.

[1731] So, like, if you're on Mount, they still have, you know, there's a few ways to get out of Mount.

[1732] I think if you're on somebody's back, I'd personally much rather be on somebody's back than...

[1733] Flattened out.

[1734] I'd rather have someone's back and then flattened out.

[1735] Boots in, flattened out, yeah.

[1736] Boots in, flattened out.

[1737] So not even body triangle, but just flattened.

[1738] Just completely flat.

[1739] Almost like the position in M .A where you see guys get finished because they can't get out.

[1740] I think that position is probably the hardest position to escape.

[1741] Can you see what Hodger's talking about with Mount or is he just that good at Mount that he says that?

[1742] He might mean the Gie, cross -collar, you know?

[1743] I don't know.

[1744] he says controlling -wise he just believes that you can complete that there's he actually thinks there's more ways to get out from the back than there is from the mouth prior to getting up including like physically prior to the keeping escape I would probably agree with him but that keeping escape is so difficult to manage it's the funny looking escape where your legs are wiggling people have a lot of trouble it's like super hard to learn how to do but then once you learn how to do it the effectiveness is just huge yeah that's a weird one when did that come to be a thing is that pretty recent I mean I saw DDS guys using it first I think yeah who's the first guy to discover something like that this seems like a ridiculous thing to discover yeah like what if I just wiggle I thought it was a joke at first so you guys really doing this yeah I remember somebody's showing me like a technique where like if you just like walk your hand on a or something like that.

[1745] Like the arm triangle or something?

[1746] Yeah, yeah, walk the arm up on the arm high.

[1747] And it's just like a funny discovery, like as opposed to like trying to like shove it in, just like walk it.

[1748] I like doing that to people, but with things that aren't true.

[1749] You know what I mean?

[1750] I'll just tell them this is a technique and watch him try to work out if I'm being serious or not.

[1751] Yeah, that's what you do when you achieve guru status.

[1752] They'll just listen to you like your Steven Sego.

[1753] See what they'll believe.

[1754] Speaking of which, how do you balance, you have to travel all across the world?

[1755] How do you balance that with running a school with being a world -class jihadist with athlete?

[1756] I mean, the secrets of travel for me are two drugs, Xanax and medaphanal.

[1757] That's how we time adjust and we hit the ground running.

[1758] What does medafinol do?

[1759] Zanics puts you to sleep.

[1760] Yeah, I mean, I have narcolepsy.

[1761] It's an aclapsee medication.

[1762] But.

[1763] How does that work with the steroids?

[1764] I mean, they work well together, you know?

[1765] Yeah, nice.

[1766] and physical recovery.

[1767] But in terms of traveling and training and stuff, it is, I mean, we're lucky because we got so many high -level guys so we can travel and they're still still in good hands.

[1768] I mean, there would be a problem if me, Nicky Rod and Nicky Ryan left and the gym had Ethan, that would be a problem.

[1769] But we've got to make sure it's not just him that.

[1770] Although everyone says they're happy when you're gone, so that's the moment I heard.

[1771] Happy when I'm gone, but they do miss me. Yeah.

[1772] For sure, until I get back.

[1773] All right.

[1774] What about you?

[1775] just like balancing it.

[1776] Do you try to stay completely focused on competing?

[1777] Like for some of the big matches you have coming up, are you able to kind of diversify?

[1778] Well, I like to, yeah, diversify my training to where, you know, if I don't have a competition scheduled, I'm more focused on skill development and, you know, getting better and broadening my tool shed.

[1779] But, you know, if I'm like six weeks before a comp, I really start amping up the intensity that I bring into the mats against bringing some of that visualization towards practice and maybe I train less volume pre -competition but higher output per session.

[1780] Yeah, what is a, what's a perfect week of training look like?

[1781] If I'm not in competition mode, I would say Monday, Wednesday, Friday, twice, every other day just once.

[1782] If I'm pre -comp, just Monday to Sunday, once a day.

[1783] So that's on the mat.

[1784] You're doing the full, like, positional training, live training.

[1785] Licep cows.

[1786] Oh, yeah, I do a lot of bicep curls.

[1787] Yeah, I lift a few times a week now.

[1788] Cardio or no?

[1789] Cardi is all mad stuff.

[1790] Cardio's all mad stuff.

[1791] I do, I do some CrossFit workouts.

[1792] Like CrossFit's, I'll do like some e -moms or some Amrabs or CrossFit, you know, terms.

[1793] That's for Instagram?

[1794] Yeah.

[1795] But, yeah, CrossFit is a good way to kind of like push that threshold.

[1796] Sometimes on the mat because I'm so good.

[1797] I can't always get that like full redline.

[1798] So I'll hop in a crossfit gym and I'll do some.

[1799] workouts that, you know, bring me closer to death.

[1800] What about you, Craig?

[1801] What does that perfect week in training look like?

[1802] Like when you're back home, training?

[1803] I try to be in the gym twice a day, every day when I'm back, just because I travel a bit more than these guys.

[1804] So I try to be there 8 and 12 every day, hang out in between.

[1805] I usually, definitely, usually train both of those sessions, depending on how my body feels.

[1806] So doing positional, doing everything, like technique, positional, live.

[1807] I should probably do more positional because I'm just trying to work on wrestling and stuff and especially leading up to the Volcanovsky's last while I was trying to wrestle more and focus on those areas even before I traveled over there just some experimentation with some stuff but yeah how do you experiment with stuff like how do you so there's like regular positional stuff but when you have ideas like where do you do it and during the training sessions do it outside of that and you get together with somebody usually every session I show up with something I'm thinking of usually something from top maybe something from bottom but and then i just try to maybe pick the right people some people obviously i'm just fighting to the death with it's not a good time to experiment and then others obviously you can you can play around with ideas on okay uh what about you uh what's a perfect week look like uh maybe well you said you're 100 % now yeah um so yeah honestly i have pretty much the same schedule as nicky rod so monday wednesday friday i do twice a day uh every other day once a day and then uh normally noon practice is like our biggest class that's where you know all the pros go in so i tend to do more open rounds there and then we have a 7 p .m. class as well which is more hobbyist uh and that's where i'll do my positional rounds and you know force myself to be put in uh bad positions so you have uh what you do 8 a .m. 12 like in terms of what btm has 8 a .m 12 and 7 p .m and the hobbyists are more 7 p .m. yes okay Do you believe in overtraining?

[1808] Do you think you can overtrain?

[1809] I used to not believe in it.

[1810] But then I got hurt.

[1811] I was like, all right.

[1812] Oh, you attribute that to overtraining?

[1813] I think, dude, I'm telling you, I trained.

[1814] I lifted like a bodybuilder for like seven years.

[1815] And by lifting on me, I was lifting seven days a week.

[1816] And I train arms most days.

[1817] Like almost every day I would do like, you know, four or five sets and get a pretty good bicep pump.

[1818] you know, in addition to my lift, I think that had to contribute somewhat towards my, what about, like, yeah, fair enough.

[1819] Well, what about on the actual mat over training, like spending too much time on the mat?

[1820] Well, psychological, physical overtraining.

[1821] I think you can definitely overtrain, but it's more of a, like, as your body's healthy, you have to make sure your mind is sharp.

[1822] Like, sometimes maybe taking a day away or even diverting your attention in a different aspect of training can help you be a little bit sharper overall.

[1823] sometimes it can be like it can get a little like stagnant because you're doing the same stuff over and over but I think if you just keep like you know overtraining then your overall baseline just gets higher and you become you become you know accustomed to that uh what about you you don't seem like a guy that overdue it I've heard of it never been close to it now I think uh controlling how hard you train is definitely protects you from injury you know what I mean Like, if you're redlining yourself and then you're fighting to the death in the gym, that's 100 % when you're going to get injured, going to get sick.

[1824] So I try to make sure I've had enough sleep.

[1825] I've had, obviously, enough food post -training, and that sort of helps me to train a bit harder, but still try to avoid redlining myself too much.

[1826] I think established also, like, what days are going to be your peak days?

[1827] Because throughout the week, if you're training seven days a week, you're going to have ups and downs.

[1828] Like for me personally, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, usually, my best days.

[1829] And besides that, I also have other great days.

[1830] All my days are great.

[1831] But Monday, Wednesday, Friday are also great.

[1832] You're like, unable to admit that some days are often than others.

[1833] I love it.

[1834] I'm always on, bro.

[1835] Okay.

[1836] What advice would you give to people who are not always on, hobbyists?

[1837] How to get better?

[1838] Like, people that are already there, I don't know, purple bells brown bells black busters just like doing like a couple times a week or something like that like how to get better i think uh being consistent like find a schedule that you can consistently train maybe it's like you know three four times a week or even a little bit less just be consistent over the over the years i think too too often people are like oh i want to get really good really fast and it's like definitely takes a long time to get to where you want to be what about the what you're doing doing like while being consistent what kind of stuff you're working on so honestly Honestly, I think one big thing for me, which is something I actually started doing once B -team was formed, was filming all of your rounds and then watching it every day.

[1839] Because then you can see what specific problems you're having, and then you can base your positional rounds around those problems.

[1840] That's really interesting.

[1841] It's kind of depressing, though.

[1842] Like, sometimes I have to, you know, I edited this podcast for a long time.

[1843] I still do in part, and I hate the sound of my voice and, like, what I look like is tough.

[1844] but it does make you better yeah and i also hate the sound of craig's voice it looks like so in this podcast would be especially difficult um but i'm glad glad the rest of you are here i don't know that's that's a really do what do you watch competition footage of yourself um like to analyze like you see yeah my confidence that's fucking good while you're doing curls yeah i'm sure i know still watch it to miss my confidence Is there advice you, Kirk, you would give for hobbyists to get better?

[1845] I mean, just not every round has to be a fight to the death, you know?

[1846] I feel like you're going to get injured, you're going to tell that way, and you're not going to learn as much.

[1847] It's tough.

[1848] I would say, just as a black belt who took just very seriously for a very long time, basically when you become a hobbyist, your skill is basically slipping.

[1849] Your age and your skill.

[1850] and so not taking stuff seriously is actually its own psychological skill of like you're that it's tough it's tough like it's tough in a way that uh it's different when you're like a blue belt or something that you're if you work hard and you train correctly you're going to get much better here you're kind of you're looking downhill you're looking downhill and you're like yeah i guess i'm going to enjoy the art of it Reframe the victory, you know?

[1851] Like if it's a young, upcoming guy and he comes to me, you're like, well, that's a moral victory, you know?

[1852] Yeah, but then that has to happen.

[1853] You have to be able to not do that to avoid the injury sometimes, like if you want.

[1854] So, yeah, it's a different, it's a different thing.

[1855] Plus, plus with me, just because some people recognize me, they...

[1856] You have that probably, you guys definitely obviously have that.

[1857] I've solved that problem.

[1858] How did you solve that problem?

[1859] Travel around, you do a seminar or anything like that?

[1860] Yeah.

[1861] It's believable that you could get submitted once.

[1862] But if they catch it, give them a few.

[1863] If people tell their friends, they submit me in a seminar, one time, believable.

[1864] They've got me four or five times.

[1865] You've robbed them of that.

[1866] Okay, that's pretty funny.

[1867] But it's also, they have this energy, like they think, you know, they're coming in hot.

[1868] And I usually like to just basically get submitted quickly twice.

[1869] and just it changes everything it makes it more fun I've noticed let them submit you twice yeah just like very quickly what are the options make it last longer hold off but then it's like it's very hard to like yeah if you're a very serious competitor and so on you take it seriously then yes but like then people go people what they try to do this probably is what happens to you guys they try to impress you by going super hard.

[1870] I have people every day come to my gym and try to take me out.

[1871] Yeah.

[1872] Gotta say, I just stay sharp.

[1873] Come to practice, let's get it on.

[1874] Do you feel that energy?

[1875] I feel like I need to talk to Craig here for like in a seminar.

[1876] Like somebody is coming in like really hard.

[1877] Like a brown belt will come in like and they really want to impress you with like their technical side of their big fan.

[1878] They've been watching your DVDs.

[1879] Like what do you do with a guy like that?

[1880] I make a complete joke out of the role.

[1881] You know, give the past mess with them do stupid shit you know like rub them of the realness of it because it's stupid i'm not going to roll hard with strangers you know i feel like you should roll with a circle of people you trust injuries happen rolling hard with strangers because that's the same way you get injured in competition because you don't have that uh relationship with them and i should also mention that's probably not a good way to impress somebody's bug just going ape shit going 100 % oh yeah that's not at all i think the the beauty of jizzes like the commercial rotary of it, like, as you get to know each other, there's technical, like, different ideas you have and all that.

[1882] Yeah.

[1883] Okay.

[1884] Do you think Gigi just lose dying in popularity, Craig?

[1885] Yeah, it's long dead.

[1886] I think it's just, I mean, it just shows, like, I mean, I have heard some numbers on the viewership for the Ghee World's Finals, and they don't even compare to the undercard of, like, who's number one events.

[1887] So I think, like, when I was coming up and competing in the Ghee all the time, you looked at those guys that won Black Bowl with championships and you were like in awe of them.

[1888] It almost had that ADCC champion feel.

[1889] But now that's not the case.

[1890] You know, I just feel like that.

[1891] The younger generation aren't looking at who's winning Black Belt, Gie Worlds.

[1892] I personally don't think, and I don't think they're like, they want to be that guy.

[1893] They want to be like a Ritolo, Gordon.

[1894] You know, those are the people they want to emulate.

[1895] So you think like the GEE, like, AbidjJF, Ghee tournaments will just keep declining popularity?

[1896] I think people will still do.

[1897] I mean, it's easier, I think, as you're over 30, because the Ghee's a bit of a slower thing, and the Masters participation is bigger in the Ghee, because obviously, Nogi is now hitting in a wrestling direction.

[1898] Wrestling in Hillhooks, you're over 30, that's a terrifying prospect, you know?

[1899] What's terrifying about the Ghee less?

[1900] So I think in a participation rate, the obvious Jeff will still be good, but I just don't think people are as interested as they used to be.

[1901] Why is wrestling and heel hooks terrifying?

[1902] Like, heel hooks I can vaguely understand if you don't understand heel hooks.

[1903] If you work a desk job and you've never wrestled and a guy double legs you, that's going to probably break you back.

[1904] You know, I think the older guys are scared of wrestling.

[1905] It's hard to wrestle at 40.

[1906] To learn wrestling at 40.

[1907] Yeah, I mean, I think it's even just hard in general to do wrestling at 40, but it's easy to pull half guard and the guy at 40.

[1908] I think it's hard to do judo at 40 and people still do it at 40.

[1909] Judo hurts more.

[1910] Judo is scarier than all of them.

[1911] Yeah.

[1912] I think, does wrestling really hurt in 40?

[1913] I don't know I'm looking at you Yeah It does Interesting I agree with you I agree with you saying That judo looks like The most dangerous Like even their Their practice partners They're just getting slammed flat Yeah I did I mean I did judo for a really long time There's a lot of people There are 40, 50, 60 do judo And they get They're the ones That are still alive though It's true Survivor bias You do a little bit of judo Right Maybe I'm a yellow belt.

[1914] You're a yellow ball in Judo?

[1915] I should be an instructor.

[1916] Promote you to orange.

[1917] I got a yellow belt in the sixth grade, I believe it was the sixth grade.

[1918] I did it for about, I don't know, six months.

[1919] But you're also using Judo in competition, basically.

[1920] Aren't you doing like Harai type throw like you're doing?

[1921] Yeah, I don't know where I learned that.

[1922] I just started doing it.

[1923] You just started lifting your leg in various ways until the work?

[1924] Just figuring it out, yeah.

[1925] Okay, doing different kinds of trips?

[1926] I looked at the sandbook guys doing it.

[1927] And I was like, it can't be that hard.

[1928] Yeah.

[1929] Gave it a crack.

[1930] Well, they looked at your footlocks and they said, that can't be that hard.

[1931] They said, can't be that hard.

[1932] Ban it from the tournaments.

[1933] All right.

[1934] What do you think is the best take down in Nogi, Jiu -Jitsu?

[1935] Like what, like if people were trying to train for competition and so on, like where you see the trend's heading.

[1936] I think those foot sweep.

[1937] is like catching fire nowadays.

[1938] See a lot of foot sweeps, foot sweeps and arm drags?

[1939] I would say pretty popular in our sport.

[1940] Arm drag.

[1941] She's just to go arm drag to the, okay.

[1942] Arm drag either to get them, like, get to behind them or even just to cause reactions, make them pull away and we can start reattacking.

[1943] Are you talking about it in a context of what's the best takedown to score?

[1944] What's the safest takedown to mitigate the risk of guillotine submission or most effective in general?

[1945] Yeah, most effective combined, yeah, yeah.

[1946] I mean, ultimately it's about scoring.

[1947] I think any sort of body lock in your hands around the body, you've been able to put them to the floor that way.

[1948] I feel like that's most effective, save.

[1949] This might even have arisen out of a leg attack, leg entry, upgrade to the body.

[1950] What about, like, foot sweeps, like outside foot sweeps?

[1951] I would say, yeah, you know, foot sweeps from outside foot sweeps or even like something like you're tossed on and pulling my body and you're sweeping the foot.

[1952] Yeah, those are all pretty.

[1953] See, why is that scary?

[1954] I don't understand.

[1955] It's not scary at all.

[1956] I think it's the lifts that are scary.

[1957] The lifts, yeah.

[1958] Who's lifting people?

[1959] I like, I like a good lift.

[1960] No, not you, I mean, in master, like, we're talking about older guys doing no geek.

[1961] Some of those old bosses take it very serious, you know?

[1962] They just start lifting.

[1963] T .R .T. Worlds.

[1964] T .T. World.

[1965] They're coming.

[1966] They're coming to impress.

[1967] Grabbing a lift.

[1968] All right.

[1969] Just, just for the gram.

[1970] Okay.

[1971] What about submission?

[1972] What's your favorite submission?

[1973] And what do you think is the most effective submission?

[1974] Except the buggy show?

[1975] I would have to say the rear naked.

[1976] It's definitely the one that's hit the most in the highest level of competition.

[1977] That was pretty interesting to see you escape all that and to put it on.

[1978] That's the cool thing about EBI to see like the world -class athletes.

[1979] I'm surprised that it's possible to escape with you on his back.

[1980] You're going to try some bee cream.

[1981] Oh, yeah.

[1982] Be cream?

[1983] That helps?

[1984] What's in the brief?

[1985] What's the formula or is that secret?

[1986] That is a proprietary blend, for sure.

[1987] Okay.

[1988] But that's what you use for greasing.

[1989] That's what you greased before.

[1990] Allegedly.

[1991] This is the other application outside of grappling?

[1992] I'm sure you can get creative.

[1993] All right.

[1994] Asking for a friend.

[1995] Is that R &C for you as well?

[1996] Rear naked?

[1997] Rear naked chog.

[1998] I mean, overall favor for like solidifying a finish because like you can push, you can put some ice sleep, right?

[1999] Even if they don't want to tag pump them to sleep.

[2000] But as far as like something I've been working on now that I'm now starting to implement And in competition, Yoko Sankaku, side triangle is like, it's a beautiful thing.

[2001] You have multiple options.

[2002] You have the triangle to finish.

[2003] If that fails, you have the komor.

[2004] You could break the arm.

[2005] You could also just transfer and take the back.

[2006] So Yoko Sankaku, I'm a big fan of, and I continue to progress.

[2007] You're better at it.

[2008] Have you ever broken anyone's arm?

[2009] Oh, yeah.

[2010] I mean, the first few competitions, because I was, like, you know, pretty athletic wrestler, or athletic wrestler going against, like, local black belts and brown belts.

[2011] Like, one of my first matches, I broke somebody at Kumora.

[2012] pretty much every time I've got a heel hook which is only twice I've broken an opponent if I have a joint lock it's probably gonna break like a lot of times it breaks before they tap yeah you seem like a really friendly fellow how hard is it to break an arm or any break a joint well I don't think it's that hard I think like if you're talking like about an arm bar we have this position to where like people are kind of holding on holding on and then it slips and their arm starts going and then it just just breaks before they even, you know, get a chance to tap.

[2013] I love this point.

[2014] My knee -barred a guy and he didn't tap one time.

[2015] And it was actually, it was surprising.

[2016] I had to put a lot of force into that, as opposed to arms, shoulders and the ligaments in the knees and ankles.

[2017] But to fully, this kid, Sambo kid, fully let it go.

[2018] And he tapped and I think the angle is like up here.

[2019] They're built different.

[2020] Hopefully he can be reconstructed.

[2021] Rebuild different.

[2022] All right.

[2023] What about a straight foot lock?

[2024] You've ever...

[2025] Do you guys do straight full locks at all?

[2026] I know.

[2027] Yeah, I mean, I'm learning them now.

[2028] We had some kid come in the practice one day and like fucking full lot, all of us, dude.

[2029] With a straightful luck.

[2030] Straightful luck, just this little, like, Polish kid.

[2031] Not only did he foot luck everyone, but he told the entire world.

[2032] He's getting out fucking emails, including his friends and family.

[2033] We practically put a hit out all over to practice and he just saw everybody.

[2034] Yeah, it's always interesting when you get, like, yeah, people that specialize can surprise you that this could be effective stuff.

[2035] Do you think there's other stuff that could be still discovered in Jiu -Jitsu?

[2036] Like, what areas do you think are ripe with techniques to discover?

[2037] Like, wrestling is really interesting now.

[2038] There's a lot of innovation happening in wrestling.

[2039] I think there will be more innovation when we get people that are more adamant.

[2040] about standing up from bottom position.

[2041] I think if we get more of the community, they're like, all right, I want to get off the bottom.

[2042] I think...

[2043] Just stand up.

[2044] Just stand up.

[2045] How jihitsu doesn't work.

[2046] We actually change the name.

[2047] How Sambo doesn't work if you just stand up.

[2048] Did you really?

[2049] All right.

[2050] I'll change it to jihitsu when I pirate it and send it for free to the entirety of the Soviet block.

[2051] And, Nickyrod, do you think ego is useful for martial arts or does it get in the way?

[2052] Okay.

[2053] I think you need to use it in, uh, both ways um for sure i have an ego like if you're if you're training competition mode um but also it can prevent you from learning and progressing if your ego is too high like you really have to shut the ego down when you're in the mode of learning and trying to you know develop skills because you're going to put yourself in these bad positions you're to have issues with a training partners that aren't necessarily you know up to up to your skill level but because you're in these bad positions you have to make these certain sacrifices and for sure eagle can be a good or bad thing, but if you're able to shut the eagle off and learn, then that'll have huge progression when it's time to put the eagle into use during competition.

[2054] When's the last time you put shut the ego off?

[2055] It's been in the long time.

[2056] What about you, Craig?

[2057] I mean, you seem to be super easygoing.

[2058] Is there, like, is the ego just not part of it?

[2059] Oh, for sure.

[2060] I just don't want anyone to know they've damaged my ego, you know?

[2061] You have to suppress it deep down.

[2062] there's a child underneath all of it crying always for sure i think ego is good for a bit of perseverance you know like it'll help you stick it out against a a tough battle with a training partner for sure a bit of egos on the line plus the banter back and forth we're trying to like stir each other up a bit i talk to shit yeah i think that helps hone sharpen the ego a bit uh what about you do you try you seem like a super humble guy is there like a monster underneath it's a total act who's in the basement I think ego is a big motivator.

[2063] You know, I think it's very good to have in the aspect that it, like, it'll drive you to help to want to be one of the best in the world.

[2064] But like Nikki Rod said, you need to be able to turn it off in the training room and, you know, force yourself into bad positions where you may not be winning.

[2065] Are there, like, you know, Donahers mentioned Boris.

[2066] Are there, like, grapplers, like, border?

[2067] This is a question from Reddit, actually.

[2068] Boris -like characters.

[2069] Anybody you've trained with in the past who doesn't compete, but it's just an absolute beast in training.

[2070] Like, people you've met are just like...

[2071] Well, somebody that I think has probably the best, like, submission grappling in MMA, I think, like, Gilbert Burns is his submission grappling.

[2072] It's very, very good.

[2073] I trained with him early on in my grappling career, and I was really impressed by his ability to move, hold down opponents that are trying to stand up.

[2074] And as a whole, you know, he can get submissions and put people away.

[2075] When's the last time?

[2076] Have you trained them recently or no?

[2077] No, it's been a few years.

[2078] Which is an impressive ability to submit, you're saying?

[2079] Yeah, like, I mean, you know, you would see Gilbert go against a few, like, pretty decent black boats in the room and farewell, and, you know, maybe he gets to their back, puts a chokin, and it's like Gilbert's super high -level grappling or submission grappling.

[2080] Yeah, but he's pretty widely recognized as a monster, so I don't know.

[2081] You didn't really answer the question.

[2082] it's like you're not even listening anymore what was the question all right is there people like you've done all these seminars are they just especially in the in the eastern block that you've seen like you went to Kazakhstan is there killers out there that oh yeah there's tough guys out there obviously I don't remember the names nor could I pronounce it if I did but definitely some tough guys out there obviously carrying skillsets over from from wrestling for sure not Sambo but wrestling wrestling but yeah are there just people that surprise you they just don't compete that are really good are there have you met those i feel like it's less so today because there's so many so many more athletes in the sport but definitely when i was coming up back like in australian and stuff there were guys i'd train with that wouldn't compete and that would be like super tough rounds for me yeah and there's so many more avenues for competing in general so yeah um what about you have you met some monsters yeah uh one guy i could think of in particular is is Jason Rao.

[2083] He trains up in Long Island, I think, right?

[2084] Opened up his own gym out there.

[2085] Vanguard.

[2086] Yeah, Vanguard.

[2087] He used to compete, but he would never be able to compete at the same level he would train at.

[2088] So now he's just focused on mainly, you know, opening up a gym and teaching his students.

[2089] But he was a guy that was, you know, extremely good in the training room, you know, world class.

[2090] I still think to this day he's legitimately one of the best in the world, but just doesn't compete anymore.

[2091] Who wins in a fight, a lion or a bear?

[2092] Polo bear?

[2093] This is for you, right?

[2094] No, not a polo, well, yes, it's a good question.

[2095] See, you're all, your polar bear is pretty impressive.

[2096] No, grizzly bear.

[2097] Grizzly bear.

[2098] I think a grizzly bear wins.

[2099] Well, who's the most threatening predator in Australia?

[2100] Well, I mean, it's a tricky question here, because everyone's scared of the animals in Australia, But, I mean, you get bitten by a snake, you're bitten by a spider.

[2101] That's not that bad.

[2102] Bear, America, bear will just hold you down to eat you.

[2103] That's a much more terrifying prospect for me. Even sharks, sharks are going to be quick.

[2104] No one sees the shark coming.

[2105] The shark's just going to bite you and chew.

[2106] A bear just holds you down and eats you.

[2107] So that's frightening for me. Australia is a bunch of just weird shit that can kill you.

[2108] Did you see Cocaine Bear, the movie that's coming out?

[2109] I saw the trailer.

[2110] It looks good.

[2111] Yeah, yeah.

[2112] So there's not every bear.

[2113] There's like black belts in this body.

[2114] bells there's bears and there's bears.

[2115] So I think that's what they often don't talk about.

[2116] Everybody puts lions and bears in the same category.

[2117] I think there's just some weak bears.

[2118] A lion would kill a black bear, I think.

[2119] Not every black, again, I'm trying to tell you, there's difference.

[2120] But Grizzly and Polabound, betting on those.

[2121] Yeah.

[2122] No, I think Grizzlies have the size, but actually every video I've seen of Grizzlies, they tie out within like 20 seconds.

[2123] They get bored.

[2124] That's the guesting?

[2125] Yeah, there's a guest.

[2126] That's a Nicky Ryan guest hang.

[2127] That's all they got.

[2128] Dreamold.

[2129] And they try to just take a breather.

[2130] Like there's these crazy fights between bears and the last like 20 seconds.

[2131] I heard this story about a Russian family that was attacked by a bear in Russia and killed the dad.

[2132] And it took so long to eat.

[2133] The daughter, she made three phone calls to her mom while I was eating her.

[2134] And the first called, the mom thought she was pranking her.

[2135] That's crazy.

[2136] That's way scarier than what we got to know.

[2137] Give me a snake bite any day.

[2138] Yeah.

[2139] You know what, let me change the question is, like, if you had to fight a bear or a lion, how would you try to defeat it?

[2140] Do you think you have a chance at all?

[2141] Well, I think I'd attack a lion a little bit differently than I'd attack a bear.

[2142] We'll be the difference.

[2143] Okay.

[2144] Well, I've seen this video where a lions are eating, and you have three, like, scrimny guys walk up behind them and kind of scare the cat off of their food.

[2145] I think maybe I produce some props, scare the line away, right?

[2146] But if I have to fight it, if I have to fight it straight on, I mean, the thing is that even if you take the back, like you can't bite it or choke it, the main is too big to lock your hands around, you know?

[2147] Are you sure about that?

[2148] Does it mean, it's just hair.

[2149] Yeah, the main is it.

[2150] Yeah, it's thick hair.

[2151] It's like matted hair, right?

[2152] I don't know.

[2153] So I think you can maintain, yeah, yeah.

[2154] But getting there, I think I fake high go low, right?

[2155] Make them think I'm going for the foot or something, a little paw sweep, and I take the back.

[2156] What about a bear?

[2157] I feel like they're easier, that might be easier to take, to hold back control.

[2158] Yeah, maybe the thing is, if the bear falls on its back, just going to crush it.

[2159] It's so big, substantially bigger than a line, right?

[2160] Like a full going grizzly.

[2161] And they're also like terrifyingly loud with their rewards and stuff.

[2162] Yeah, I think, I think, so first of all, I saw Grizzly, I'm like, are he's going to attack me i try to yell a little bit louder them maybe the the term a little bit like give them a yeah and then uh yeah for sure i try to get behind it i probably go like uh something weird maybe like pull the eyes out or something you know for sure i mean i'm going for the vital organs you know play dead play dead and then we'll check it there's no there's no pride in that well pride even matters see the ego the same advice you gave you got to put the ego side with a bear even then even then would you how would you fight a bear or a lion just play dead like dead yeah could you beat a kangaroo a kangaroo I'd beat the shit out kangaroo yeah yeah I'd beat the shit out kangaroo yeah yeah I mean are we boxing gloves we just like How would a kangaroo attack a human Try to kick him with the claws Knock them down and then they choke him Stand on that tail The kangaroos do They choke each other yeah They don't choke each other You don't believe me?

[2163] you want to watch a video they check each other out I've seen this yeah help yeah yeah yeah with which they do with this or what yeah they knock them and just grip like this and hold what's the grip what just like a little pause how are they gripping I promise you I'm not lying to pretty sure I've seen the video they also do strange shit like if there's a predator around that wait in a pool of water and then if it comes to attack they drown it they're pretty smart Okay, speaking of which, what's the most effective martial art for winning a street fight?

[2164] You talked about rule sets and streets.

[2165] I think you've talked about being a street.

[2166] Have you ever been in a street fight?

[2167] Yeah, just one.

[2168] Yeah.

[2169] Nothing special, nothing crazy, hey.

[2170] Yeah, you don't talk about that time.

[2171] Like, for self -defense purposes, will be a strategy on the street.

[2172] I feel like whoever wins the street fights, whoever's willing to take it the furthest, the fastest.

[2173] You know what I mean?

[2174] If you're thinking you're going to box and he's biting you, poking your eyes, that guy's going to win.

[2175] He wants them more.

[2176] You know what I mean?

[2177] That's why the crackheads fight.

[2178] They go for the kill straight away, you know?

[2179] So I feel like it's more about who's willing to do the most that's going to win that fight.

[2180] Fastest.

[2181] The most fastest.

[2182] Who's got the least to lose, you know?

[2183] Yeah, we could also define winning differently because you could also run away.

[2184] But in terms of technique -wise, wrestling.

[2185] I think if it's a one -on -one, I'd go, I'd go wrestler wins.

[2186] But if it's like a, you know, it's like a multiple people, you got to go Muay, stay on their feet.

[2187] Can't go down to the ground if it's more than one person.

[2188] Yeah, big double -leg, maybe.

[2189] Yeah, double -leg, put them asleep on the impact, right?

[2190] Forehead to the ground.

[2191] Yeah, what's the goal here?

[2192] Is to win the fight, not go to prison?

[2193] I haven't thought of it through that way.

[2194] Yeah, certainly, yeah.

[2195] Yeah, not to kill the person.

[2196] You got mutual combat here.

[2197] here in Texas, we're good.

[2198] Is that in Texas?

[2199] Do you know what the paperwork for that looks like?

[2200] Do you have to actually sign something?

[2201] I hope I don't need to find out.

[2202] I did hear a story where guys were on 6th Street and they looked at a cop.

[2203] They were like mutual combat and just got like the cops to say yes and just duked it out.

[2204] It could be false though.

[2205] That sounds crazy.

[2206] I'm just saying.

[2207] I kind of admire that, but I've also been playing Red Dead Red Dead redemption.

[2208] recently so I've like internalized the cowboy a little a little too much just to return to gym stuff no because it's a business because you're running a business there's money involved but you're also friends but you're also training partners is there um attention that money creates that can threatens to destroy friendships that's something I always worry about with money I try not to go do any kind of business with friends or family I think if it were all very clear and honest and open at the start makes it much easier.

[2209] I think people have issues when there's like, kind of like things are written and find print and nobody knows exact answers.

[2210] And a lot of judici guys can't read.

[2211] Yeah, that makes it.

[2212] We're learning that today.

[2213] Yeah.

[2214] No. Definitely complicated though.

[2215] Yeah.

[2216] I mean, it's not always obvious how to be transparent and stuff and about everything.

[2217] Have you felt that tension?

[2218] Because in the jihitsa world, money's not really unlimited.

[2219] Just running a school, what's that like?

[2220] Because it's the first time you're running a school, running a gym.

[2221] Yeah, I mean, it's just constantly updating people about what's going on, what your expectations are.

[2222] You know what I mean?

[2223] We've had some problems with coaches who I feel like think the pie is bigger than it is.

[2224] You know what I mean?

[2225] They feel like maybe we're getting, reach out of this and they're missing out on things.

[2226] So it's like even amongst managing staff, that can be challenging too.

[2227] So yeah, I mean, it's a constant work in progress to make, not only to make sure everyone's happy, but to make sure they're comfortable enough to reach out and tell you they're unhappy.

[2228] But I feel like those challenges are common amongst any small business.

[2229] Still, it sucks.

[2230] Just to mention, I'm clueless to this, but I'm just not learning this uh somebody i met and talked to and i really like is isaac and just learned because you're also active on reddit what's your name on right is my john baloochie's mom as undercover as possible you know oh it's not you it's uh it's actually it's actually john balusie's mom right uh so i've done my research i guess and i guess you guys had a had a falling out and have split i just want to say that i don't know the few interactions I've had with him, he's a beautiful human being.

[2231] So, and that just shows to me...

[2232] Visually, maybe not internally.

[2233] And sexually, just the experience.

[2234] No. It's just a kind person.

[2235] I don't know.

[2236] I liked them a lot.

[2237] Like, to me, in a business setting, yeah, tensions are created and it sucks.

[2238] I don't know.

[2239] I mean, I suppose money, all the stuff that happened in the jungle, aside, probably money had a role to play to create extra tension.

[2240] money and egos about like who is the leader who is not the leader it's tough it's tough to manage that kind of stuff i've seen it happen with judicious schools a lot i don't know exactly what because it's like there is also a hierarchy inside grappling jesus schools like people that are better or not there's literally ranks black belt and brown belt there's like competitors that are better i mean it's a weird dynamic in which to operate because like usually there's more politeness and like humanity layered into the way a company works but here there's just a bunch of i mean it's like violence laid on on display plus money it's crazy is there something you could say to that like how you try to minimize or something you want to comment on isaic yeah i mean it was unfortunate situation but it just didn't work out you know like there's going to be personality clashes some people uh i can't imagine anyone having a personality class with you.

[2241] With me?

[2242] It's hard to imagine.

[2243] Yeah.

[2244] You know, I mean, I didn't even know what to sound that.

[2245] I don't want to touch on it too much, but obviously his expectations about his role in the gym, obviously different from ours, led to some personality clashes that was sort of unresolved.

[2246] You know, some things happened that can't be resolved.

[2247] He can't fix those things, you know?

[2248] Obviously, a lesson, I hope, for both of those things.

[2249] both of us.

[2250] Definitely a lesson for me from a management role to try to address these things sooner.

[2251] But also, sometimes I came up in a different time where there was no money, no opportunities.

[2252] I had to pave that way totally for myself, especially coming from Australia.

[2253] Like being a professional athlete in Judges, it was not, I think.

[2254] So I had to pave a lot of opportunities for myself.

[2255] And I feel like sometimes, I don't know what the right word is.

[2256] sometimes people don't appreciate some of the ways you help them, and they just think, feel like almost they deserve or are entitled to certain things, and that is very difficult to manage.

[2257] But I think, again, like, we both see the situation different.

[2258] I do hope he finds a better, a more comfortable place to train.

[2259] But yeah, obviously, I've known him for a long time, sort of like a brotherly relationship.

[2260] So that's going to really make personal problems a lot worse when you're that close to someone.

[2261] I just hated that, like, I've seen it in Jijs, especially, but in other places where, like, close friendships were destroyed because of, like, gym stuff.

[2262] Like, people running gyms.

[2263] And it just, as a person who is, in this case, just a fan, but in general, like, a student, it's, like, sucks.

[2264] But, again, in my position, sometimes I wonder if there really was a friendship or mirror.

[2265] opportunity.

[2266] I have to be careful of that with some people in the sport.

[2267] Is it a sincere relationship or like, I mean, it's difficult for me to tell or am I means to an end?

[2268] Sure, but I think it's actually a trade -off because I think a lot of close friendships would have, like even relationships we have, like when tested, like can break if they're not properly communicated.

[2269] Like, some of it could be just misunderstanding of like for a prolonged period of time.

[2270] It's not explaining to it really just like a lack of integrity.

[2271] It's just like you, like you have to like talk through that shit.

[2272] Like just be honest with each other.

[2273] Take some MDMA and really get down to that.

[2274] Drugs solve everything.

[2275] You've already eaten from this conversation.

[2276] I've actually haven't done MDMA yet.

[2277] People say that that's something I would enjoy a lot because my brain is I think natural on MDMA.

[2278] I'd recommend it for sure.

[2279] For sure.

[2280] Is that what you do with Gabby and L?

[2281] Okay, never mind.

[2282] She drugged me In general Why does there always seem to be drama In the jihisi world Like outside of what's going on here Or is that just I think it's universal to anything Dramas everywhere And then drama rises to the surface Karma makes the money Yeah I wish there was a little bit less You've You have a bunch of Like we mentioned some of them You have a bunch of instructionals out What are some interesting things That you're looking forward to Like exploring in terms of teaching.

[2283] So just stand up is your most recent one, right?

[2284] Yeah, you also have one called Power Bottom, an inclusive modern approach to the Guard.

[2285] Yep, yep.

[2286] What are some other ones?

[2287] False Reap allegations?

[2288] False Reap allegations, yeah.

[2289] By the way, people talk about Power Bottom, again, hilarious title, but they say it's a really good instructional unlike the Guard.

[2290] Yeah, I try to at least be innovative.

[2291] You know, like everyone else I feel like ripping off John and Gordon putting some sort of slants So I'm trying to take sort of a different approach.

[2292] I think you can actively influence the sport with what you release because people are going to try to emulate that.

[2293] So I think that's those type of instructions, it's just then up, power bottom, like approaching the sport differently.

[2294] I think definitely has a positive impact on how people play the game.

[2295] Are you working on something now?

[2296] Probably a fundamental course just because we're bringing out with the White Belt program coming in.

[2297] So I'm trying to develop a fundamentals course along the line of the constraint -based learning stuff.

[2298] We were talking about today, like a way to approach learning as a beginner to sort of speed up the process a bit and not make it as so technique, dense, at least have it a bit more fun.

[2299] And focusing in on just like examples of problems to solve.

[2300] Exactly, yeah.

[2301] Approaching judici learning that way.

[2302] Like, I mean, kids learn quick through games.

[2303] I think adults are capable of that to a certain extent as well.

[2304] you're releasing that instructional on pre -match preparation yes what other stuff do you ever think on a body lock pass yeah i have a have a body lock or rottie lock DVD or instructional um yeah had the pre -match ritual coming out i also have um i'm filming uh how to build athleticism for grappling um just really trying to capture different angles kind of like the same you know what craigs don't try not to do the same thing that everybody else does you know there's a ton of wrestling ton of jiu -jitsu instructional so and the steroid results are coming out oh yeah yeah more plates more dates you know derrick that runs that um hit me up for a blood panel test like an impromp thing and uh i did it a few days ago and i believe the results will come out shortly oh yeah i do you know the results what are you betting on lex what you think it's hard it's hard to believe yeah it's yeah it's very very impressive you're putting me in awkward position here.

[2305] Do you think you'll face Gordon soon?

[2306] I'm open to it.

[2307] I don't know how soon, maybe in the next six months.

[2308] I could see me facing him before ADCC worlds.

[2309] I think that's a great rivalry.

[2310] I think it's a really interesting one.

[2311] It's fun for me. Is there any chance that the two, the Soviet Union, Union and Nazi Germany get back together that DDS under whatever name gets back together No highly unlikely I mean we kind of did this to you know to back up Nikki Ryan and we're sticking with our guy so what do you think yeah I think there's just too many personality conflicts for it to really ever work again do you think there will always be war in the world war Yeah.

[2312] Oh, yeah.

[2313] I think from the beginning of time, it's been, you know, some kind of war, some kind of battle.

[2314] Controversity, it's what helps people evolve.

[2315] Until AI, super intelligent AI becomes way more powerful than humans and humbles all of us with its power before it destroys us.

[2316] Oh.

[2317] Until it runs out of batteries.

[2318] You guys are screwed.

[2319] Just unplugging.

[2320] I can't have that.

[2321] That's awesome.

[2322] I'm really fortunate to be able to hang out with you to train with you.

[2323] And thank you so much for talking today.

[2324] That's the best ending.

[2325] Thanks for listening to this conversation with Craig Jones, Nikki Rod, and Nikki Ryan.

[2326] To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.

[2327] And now, let me leave you with some words from Miyamoto Masashi.

[2328] You must understand that there's more than one path to the top of the mountain.

[2329] Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.

[2330] Thank you.